Someone messed up over at GW and put the rest of the Chapter Tactics in the same image folder and now you can literally go find them with enough trial and error.
How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
80% sure it will be restrictive force org based
otherwise it could be CP trade in.
but i highly doubt it will cost actual list building points. only by the fact that adjusting EVERYTHING is something i cant see underpaid GW interns wanting to do.
Little sad that half the imp fist one is pointless as no one ever takes fortifications but hot damn ignore cover.
In tears as well. I'm hoping that we get a nice relic or warlord trait to make up for it. Plus side is that this would stack up with the venerable dread's 6 to ignore wounds as well! Didn't they also say that each chapter would get its own psychic powers as well? I would love a bit of technomancy from my librarians. Maybe GW could make up for that chapter tactic by finally giving us a bloody named character or something!
It seems like black templars are the real winners here, that reroll charges is going to be brutal. Salamanders is going to be a beast tactics for dreads and characters, especially if they're toting meltaguns or multimeltas.
Interesting. I'm glad that IF don't just have to stick to countless Boltguns anymore, guess they were right you can play any build you like with a Space Marine army. Black Templars seem to be the way to go playing Deep Striking armies, and even general Melee armies, reroll charge is huge in my opinion, but is more situational than some other Chapter Tactics. Like the Raven Guard one will affect your entire army, but Black Templars will only really be effective on Melee units. But then again, those same RG tactics will be useless against Melee armies. I really like this rock paper scissors system, but it is still flexible - there are still circumstances where scissors could beat rock.
I'm currently repainting my marines to Salamanders (unrelated to the new edition though) , seems underwhelming at first but being able to reroll all of those damn 1-shot heavy weapons for both to-hit and to-wound is probably going to be pretty awesome.
WarbossDakka wrote: Black Templars seem to be the way to go playing Deep Striking armies, and even general Melee armies, reroll charge is huge in my opinion, but is more situational than some other Chapter Tactics..
Given how I've previously played my Black Templars, it's far from situational. Angry EC-based massacres, AWAY!
nekooni wrote: I'm currently repainting my marines to Salamanders (unrelated to the new edition though) , seems underwhelming at first but being able to reroll all of those damn 1-shot heavy weapons for both to-hit and to-wound is probably going to be pretty awesome.
Msu or combat squading tacticals might be worth it. for sally.
Imp fist black templar, sally seems good all the time so i can see them being slightly weaker then the others
Smurfs are pretty strong but will be very situational
What does this mean? Where I'm from it would mean someone found them a sex partner. I doubt that is what it means in this context. Sorry, I suck at american slang.
Templars' seems only okay. Re-rolling charges is primarily relevant if you're deep-striking with more than one unit (otherwise you can just use a CP). So it strongly pushes them towards that style of play but I don't know that that's a very strong style of play in the first place.
Siege Masters' is going to be a huge deal in some matchups and useless in others.
Salamanders' is incredible. If you're shooting a large number of shots, it is like you're getting an extra 1.67 shots in the volley, which is fine. If you're shooting one shot which hits and wounds on a 3+, it is a 77% increase in expected damage. This is a huge boost in damage output for ranged dreadnoughts but also for the special/heavy weapons in tactical squads.
Iron Hands' is fine. Can't complain about 6+ FNP. This is probably overall preferable to Raven Guard's thing against BS3+. It's also worth noting that FNP plays really nicely with multi-wound models like bikers and Terminators since they're far more likely to survive a plasma hit.
nekooni wrote: I'm currently repainting my marines to Salamanders (unrelated to the new edition though) , seems underwhelming at first but being able to reroll all of those damn 1-shot heavy weapons for both to-hit and to-wound is probably going to be pretty awesome.
Msu or combat squading tacticals might be worth it. for sally.
Imp fist black templar, sally seems good all the time so i can see them being slightly weaker then the others
Smurfs are pretty strong but will be very situational
White scars got hooked up.
Raven guard got hooked up too.
Iron hands not even worth mentioning lol. At least I won't feel bad for using the codex against opponents still on the index.
McGibs wrote: Did they mix up Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors?
They are both good at offensive and defensive.
Well yeah, all marines are good at everything. But the super reductive gimmick between fists and warriors is that the fists build the fortresses, and the warriors knock em down.
What does this mean? Where I'm from it would mean someone found them a sex partner. I doubt that is what it means in this context. Sorry, I suck at american slang.
i dont want to explain because its funny but i probably should
So far White scars and Raven guard both got very good chapter tactics.
What does this mean? Where I'm from it would mean someone found them a sex partner. I doubt that is what it means in this context. Sorry, I suck at american slang.
i dont want to explain because its funny but i probably should
So far White scars and Raven guard both got very good chapter tactics.
Thanks and it is funny. I was just imagining Khan getting introduced to a girl at a party, maybe by Fulgrim.
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
80% sure it will be restrictive force org based
otherwise it could be CP trade in.
but i highly doubt it will cost actual list building points. only by the fact that adjusting EVERYTHING is something i cant see underpaid GW interns wanting to do.
On facebook they said "You'll need a full detachment of [white scars, but probably all chapters] to get access to chapter tactics."
IDK if it only affects the full detachment of what.
McGibs wrote: Did they mix up Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors?
They are both good at offensive and defensive.
Well yeah, all marines are good at everything. But the super reductive gimmick between fists and warriors is that the fists build the fortresses, and the warriors knock em down.
The Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors are both experts in building, defending and assaulting fortifications: That's where the rivalry stems from. Remember the Imperial Palace vs the Iron Cage?
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
80% sure it will be restrictive force org based
otherwise it could be CP trade in.
but i highly doubt it will cost actual list building points. only by the fact that adjusting EVERYTHING is something i cant see underpaid GW interns wanting to do.
On facebook they said "You'll need a full detachment of [white scars, but probably all chapters] to get access to chapter tactics."
IDK if it only affects the full detachment of what.
Sounds like when building a list you cant chuck a random IG Basilisk squad in the HS section. the imperial fists are tooooooo distracted by the big guns.
not sure how its going to work in a multi detachment.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.
Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)
What does this mean? Where I'm from it would mean someone found them a sex partner. I doubt that is what it means in this context. Sorry, I suck at american slang.
i dont want to explain because its funny but i probably should
So far White scars and Raven guard both got very good chapter tactics.
Eh, I would consider the White Scar tactic a nerf in the long run, since most of their iconic units (Bikes, mech Infantry) preferred to shoot instead of charge anyway. Thus, such armies are ironically done better with Ultramarine Tactics anyway. Of course, given that the most popular 7e Marine tournament build was "Blue Scars", it's probably a wash either way.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.
Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)
Thats what I have been saying! People that don't stop crying about cover rules, etc... don't they tried to play with the Cities of Death special rules? And a proper field full of terrain. Then 8th terrain rules are totally fine.
I'm sad if these are free detachment buffs as that means they can be accessed with basically no downside.
I'll take my army with 1 detachment of assault units with the WS tactic, 1 with my back field shooting units with Ravenguard, and my midfield as salamanders.
My preference would be for traits to cost points as they are not all equivalent so getting the RG buff is better than the IF buff, but the units are the same price.
Barring that I would like them to require a full "chapter" army to get the buff, and then have chapters have different FOC restrictions or something.
But from the sound of it the only restriction is "detachment must be totally single chapter" which really isn't much of a drawback.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.
Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)
Thats what I have been saying! People that don't stop crying about cover rules, etc... don't they tried to play with the Cities of Death special rules? And a proper field full of terrain. Then 8th terrain rules are totally fine.
Things like "cities of death" will always be marginal and are not likely to show up in tournament play. A lot of people like to make their more casual games mimic the rules they're going to play with in a more official capacity.
And I play with a crap load of terrain. But in more than 80% of situations, it only matters for blocking line of sight. The cover bonus is very situational. I find that it doesn't come up often and only in rare cases does it have a large impact on the game. Terrain is great for breaking up firing lines in 8th, but for providing a mechanical bonus, it's "o.k." at best.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?
Seems weird that vulkan hestan's buff becomes a little redundant with the sally chapter tactics.
Ignoring cover isn't particularly strong so far but to be fair tomb blades pay 3 points per model to do that.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?
Because, if you'll read my last post. Mechanically, cover sucks. Cover is super important. I use as much as possible. It breaks up firing lanes and can keep certain units (like infantry) more relevant, but that +1 save that requires every model in the unit to be in the terrain just isn't a big factor more often than not. There are corner cases where it really matters, but overall, it's just "meh."
Out of the last 4 though the gap between power is situational and probably equal in terms of value depending on unit choices. Ravengaurd -1 to hit double auto dreads and las cannon devastator teams - it really is just too helpful all the time to be handed out for free on any army.
docdoom77 wrote: Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.
My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.
How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?
People can, and will, complain about anything and everything.
-1 to hit from more than 12" doesn't strike me as being all that much better than 6+ FNP. Obviously it wrecks shooty Orks, but against BS3+, -1 to hit is basically a 5.5+ FNP. Against BS4+ it's like a 5+ FNP. And it doesn't protect at all against CC or rapid fire. FNP is also better at protecting multi-wound models from attacks that do just enough damage to kill them.
THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.
They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.
Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.
Its very weird i hate that they made modifiers work that way.
but at the same time if you are shooting plasma guns you are probably within 12" in the first place for that sweet sweet rapid fire. (its an example i know)
Dionysodorus wrote: -1 to hit from more than 12" doesn't strike me as being all that much better than 6+ FNP. Obviously it wrecks shooty Orks, but against BS3+, -1 to hit is basically a 5.5+ FNP. Against BS4+ it's like a 5+ FNP. And it doesn't protect at all against CC or rapid fire. FNP is also better at protecting multi-wound models from attacks that do just enough damage to kill them.
A hit penalty is better versus multi-wound weapons, since FNP requires rolling a 6+ for each wound suffered. So vs Overcharged plasma, said Iron Hands have to roll 2 6s each.
I know it's all doom and gloom for the Imperial Fist tactics (I guess it depends on how much terrain you use, but if you don't play with much terrain at all you're doing it wrong), but remember we still have Relics, Warlord Traits and Strategems to look at. What if IF get a great Relic to use paired with a useful Strategem? It won't be so bad then.
And guess who became relevant again with actual unique rules?
I mean, that makes me happy as a CF player above all else to be honest.
Nah. All units in your army will have to be from the same chapter or you don't get the trait.
Where has that been stated? I think the "restiriction" might just be that only certain units get to use and only if they have that CT.
Well I don't think there will be any restrictions on using 2 chapters together - I feel like each detachment is going to have to have the same chapter tactic. So - if your fear is a space marine player running 3 detachments.
A vangaurd detachment with
3 raven guard dreads
An outrider detachment with
3 units of ultra marine scout bikes
and a black templar vangaurd with
3 units of vangaurd vets
WarbossDakka wrote: I know it's all doom and gloom for the Imperial Fist tactics (I guess it depends on how much terrain you use, but if you don't play with much terrain at all you're doing it wrong), but remember we still have Relics, Warlord Traits and Strategems to look at. What if IF get a great Relic to use paired with a useful Strategem? It won't be so bad then.
And guess who became relevant again with actual unique rules?
I mean, that makes me happy as a CF player above all else to be honest.
No real doom or gloom here.
Im saying its dull (very not flashy like the other CT except Iron hands which is about 20 times more dull then the fists)
its definitely strong.
But the building one IS very very pointless for the majority of the games unless someone one makes them popular enough for everyone to start taking.
im so excited to see IF Strats. the relics 99% sure they are going to be copy pastaed out of the previous books.
Dionysodorus wrote: -1 to hit from more than 12" doesn't strike me as being all that much better than 6+ FNP. Obviously it wrecks shooty Orks, but against BS3+, -1 to hit is basically a 5.5+ FNP. Against BS4+ it's like a 5+ FNP. And it doesn't protect at all against CC or rapid fire. FNP is also better at protecting multi-wound models from attacks that do just enough damage to kill them.
A hit penalty is better versus multi-wound weapons, since FNP requires rolling a 6+ for each wound suffered. So vs Overcharged plasma, said Iron Hands have to roll 2 6s each.
Does this happen often? I feel like I almost only see people using overcharged plasma on T4 W1 models when it's super-cheap Guardsmen with re-rolls, and they're almost always inside 12" when they're doing it. If the targets have two wounds then the FNP is better if the shooter has better than BS4+. Granted, the -1 to hit is a lot better if your Marines are getting shot at with the occasional Lascannon, but this is not something you're very scared of in the first place.
THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.
They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.
Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.
Poor trigger control against sneaky stuff. Though why you would overcharge against a bunch of 1 to 2 wound models is beyond me, unless you want to test that -2 to hit.
Poor trigger control against sneaky stuff. Though why you would overcharge against a bunch of 1 to 2 wound models is beyond me, unless you want to test that -2 to hit.
THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.
They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.
Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.
Poor trigger control against sneaky stuff. Though why you would overcharge against a bunch of 1 to 2 wound models is beyond me, unless you want to test that -2 to hit.
Dreadnoughts, Bikes, Termies, Characters. They all get it and you might want to overcharge vs these.
Crimson wrote: Universal ignores cover seems pretty damn decent to me. I think people don't use enough terrain.
I keep getting forced onto planet bowling ball, because I only remember one player who liked to use terrain. For some reason, the more my opponent has 36-72" range weapons, and the more short-ranged stuff I use, the more they argue for less terrain.
It could just be that selfishness and having no sense of fair play is just rampant in the wargaming community.
Crimson wrote: Universal ignores cover seems pretty damn decent to me. I think people don't use enough terrain.
I keep getting forced onto planet bowling ball, because I only remember one player who liked to use terrain. For some reason, the more my opponent has 36-72" range weapons, and the more short-ranged stuff I use, the more they argue for less terrain.
It could just be that selfishness and having no sense of fair play is just rampant in the wargaming community.
This is not a problem with the Chapter Tactic, though. There should be guidelines for roughly how much scenery a Matched Play game has. Malifaux has this in the rulebook.
Crimson wrote: Universal ignores cover seems pretty damn decent to me. I think people don't use enough terrain.
I keep getting forced onto planet bowling ball, because I only remember one player who liked to use terrain. For some reason, the more my opponent has 36-72" range weapons, and the more short-ranged stuff I use, the more they argue for less terrain.
It could just be that selfishness and having no sense of fair play is just rampant in the wargaming community.
This is not a problem with the Chapter Tactic, though. There should be guidelines for roughly how much scenery a Matched Play game has. Malifaux has this in the rulebook.
Matched play or tournies for sure
often times though i just get a non bias 3rd party to make the table.
a few fire channels here and there but otherwise fairly dense terrain is fun on the bun. right untill the metal models come out :X
a few fire channels here and there but otherwise fairly dense terrain is fun on the bun. right untill the metal models come out :X
There are some models that I would only buy if I found them in metal. Because they really should be. It's just not right that GW turned them into failcrap. Units such as: Avatar of Khaine, Ghazghkull
THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.
They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.
Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.
Poor trigger control against sneaky stuff. Though why you would overcharge against a bunch of 1 to 2 wound models is beyond me, unless you want to test that -2 to hit.
Dreadnoughts, Bikes, Termies, Characters. They all get it and you might want to overcharge vs these.
Fair enough, its a might and maybe strategically then. Then I would say, you might not want to use overcharge against RG 1 to 2 wound models if they are more than 12" away.
Formosa wrote: wow the salamander chapter tactic is oddly similar to a Tzeench legion trait i suggested, but was told it was OPlol.
looking at all of these so far, none of them strike me as fluffy, quite boring infact.
Dunno. Imp fists are adept at city fighting and often fight people entrenched in cover and ruins so the ignore cover might be the weakest part. but benefits against buildings is pretty fluffy
they tried to bring back old master crafted for salamanders it kinda works in the sense that they ALL make and maintain their own weapons though its a little wonky that its a per unit rule rather than a per model rules (though that would be bonkers OP if everyone could reroll wounds and hits )
Templars are definitly there to crusade.
white scars should be particularly hard to pin down.
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
They seem to at least be on top of it rather than ignoring it and hoping it goes away.
also "flamer based stratagems" oh baby wonder what they do.
THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.
They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.
Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.
Poor trigger control against sneaky stuff. Though why you would overcharge against a bunch of 1 to 2 wound models is beyond me, unless you want to test that -2 to hit.
Dreadnoughts, Bikes, Termies, Characters. They all get it and you might want to overcharge vs these.
And you're overcharging in rapid fire range. Where the rule doesn't matter...
If you're not, sounds like you need to make the choice whether to risk it or not. Oh no, a decision!
Ratius wrote: Ally a bunch of all these chapter tactic units together into a coherent force and you'd have a key for every lock.....
#scary
I doubt you'll get CT without having that chapter army wide.
I doubt it will be anything like that restrictive. You just won't get the benefits if the unit in question does not have specific Chapter Tactics (or is not Infantry, Bikes or Dreads).
So you can have a Black Templar's Vanguard detachment, a Raven Guard Spearhead and a White Scars Outrider.
There is not likely to be a downside to this form all the informaiton we have thus far.
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
Yes, because they totally wrote this article in few hours as a response to these leaks...
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
Yes, because they totally wrote this article in few hours as a response to these leaks...
Likely had it written and pushed it forwards in the que.
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
Yes, because they totally wrote this article in few hours as a response to these leaks...
Likely had it written and pushed it forwards in the que.
You'll notice the image names in the new article have new names with random characters at the end. Something to prohibit fishing for leaks?
Still missing the Lamenter's chapter tactics: You automatically lose any battle but get a moral victory for being extra loyal.
I guess someone at GW found the leak, then. They were releasing them one-per-day until completion, were halfway through, and most recently posted today.
Yes, because they totally wrote this article in few hours as a response to these leaks...
Likely had it written and pushed it forwards in the que.
You'll notice the image names in the new article have new names with random characters at the end. Something to prohibit fishing for leaks?
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
Or they won't be increased, and everyone else will be similarly buffed faction by faction.
+ It's good. Re-rolls are handy. It's not amazing, but pretty good.
+ It benefits both shooty and fighty-units, unlike some of the other CT's who only affect certain units.
? It pushes for MSU/Combat Squads. Some may like this, but I personally like larger units.
- It's extremely boring. It's not Iron-Hands-boring, but still boring. It feels alittle lazy from GW, like they didn't quite know what to do with Salamanders.
- Almost no synergy what so ever with the signature weapons of the Salamanders; Flamers. If I could change one thing about our CT, it is so that you could, instead of rerolling the to-hit roll when shooting, reroll the D6 for the number of hits on a single flame-weapon in the unit.
All in all, I rate this new CT "meh". Was hoping for something else, but it could've been worse.
I love my flamers, but currently both Imperial Fists and Ultramarines do flamers better than Salamanders...
also "flamer based stratagems" oh baby wonder what they do.
Blargh. Another stratagem tied to specific units.
like what specific unit.
additionally for all we know it could be 3cp for the remainder of the turn all flamers in your detachment does maximum flamer hits.
I really do think that some people are complaining to complain at this point. There's NO other explanation from troll posts like that, and someone thinking an army wide Ignore Cover is bland...
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
Or they won't be increased, and everyone else will be similarly buffed faction by faction.
GW have said they willl (eventually) do similar things for some of the factions and sub factions. Now they have also said that there will be about 10 codexes released before Christmas - 3 of these have already been confirmed _ Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard
Then its likely to be Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels
Might be room for a couple of non marine codexes - I would think Daemons, Orks and Eldar, plus maybe Necrons might squeeze in - Unless any other Marine dexes slip in.
Anyone else likely 2018 at the earliest - So Tau, Guard, Agents, Dark Eldar.
also "flamer based stratagems" oh baby wonder what they do.
Blargh. Another stratagem tied to specific units.
like what specific unit.
additionally for all we know it could be 3cp for the remainder of the turn all flamers in your detachment does maximum flamer hits.
I really do think that some people are complaining to complain at this point. There's NO other explanation from troll posts like that, and someone thinking an army wide Ignore Cover is bland...
:/ well i do think its bland in the sense that its not very trixy you dont need to put thought into. you just shoot and wammo you are doing a thing.
rather than adjusting deployment to make use of the -1
combat locking in and out to sling shot white scars closer to a character or double back for punishing gunner with smurfs.
definitely not saying ignore cover is bad. no way. its an amazing bonus.
...While having separate Chapter Tactics for each Detachment seems facially possible and legal, I'm not sure its the God Tier army creation choice that people seem to suggest it to be.
I'm not as familiar with Space Marines, but don't a vast majority of auras/abilities trigger only for fellow <Chapter> members? Wouldn't that at least something of a limiting factor in terms of cherry-picking the best of each unit?
That would have less of an effect if you don't rely on auras/abilities, or if you're making an effectively independent force (Hello, White Scars Outrider Detachment!), but while it seems facially bonkers, particularly given the strength of these Chapter Tactics, it seems like it might be more limited in practice than it facially suggests.
It will also depend heavily on what the unique Strategems do. The unique strategems might be less attractive if they fail to boost more than a third of your army at any given time...
also "flamer based stratagems" oh baby wonder what they do.
Blargh. Another stratagem tied to specific units.
like what specific unit.
additionally for all we know it could be 3cp for the remainder of the turn all flamers in your detachment does maximum flamer hits.
I really do think that some people are complaining to complain at this point. There's NO other explanation from troll posts like that, and someone thinking an army wide Ignore Cover is bland...
:/ well i do think its bland in the sense that its not very trixy you dont need to put thought into. you just shoot and wammo you are doing a thing.
rather than adjusting deployment to make use of the -1
combat locking in and out to sling shot white scars closer to a character or double back for punishing gunner with smurfs.
definitely not saying ignore cover is bad. no way. its an amazing bonus.
Well what the hell else do you WANT from Imperial Fists?
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
Or they won't be increased, and everyone else will be similarly buffed faction by faction.
GW have said they willl (eventually) do similar things for some of the factions and sub factions. Now they have also said that there will be about 10 codexes released before Christmas - 3 of these have already been confirmed _ Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard
Then its likely to be Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels
Might be room for a couple of non marine codexes - I would think Daemons, Orks and Eldar, plus maybe Necrons - Unless any other Marine dexes slip in.
Anyone else likely 2018 at the earliest - So Tau, Gaurd, Agents, Dark Eldar.
A long time.
I seriously hope they would at least keep to the 1 Imperium/1 Xenox release pattern in the macro and give us 5 and 5.
If we get 10 marine codexes, and 0 Xenos, in the next 5 months, I'm going to flip a freaking table.
You people were complaining that the Tactics were too generic, and when you get Strategems for this you complain it's unit specific.
I didn't complain about tactics being generic.
Frickin pick one, people.
I did pick one, I prefer them generic. There is quite a limited amount of available chapter traits, so I prefer them to be pretty flexible so they can easily be used to represent a variety of successor chapters.
In the codex introduction article they said this:
Games Workshop wrote:Previous Chapter Tactics generally focused around specific units and weapons like Salamanders with flamers or Imperial Fists with bolter-armed Tactical Squads, but this time around, they’ll be benefitting every unit and every army build; the strength of the Space Marines is diversity, after all.
While it is technically true, as the chapter tactics themselves are not tied to specific units or weapon choices, it is kinda cop out that the stratagems are.
Unusual Suspect wrote: ...While having separate Chapter Tactics for each Detachment seems facially possible and legal, I'm not sure its the God Tier army creation choice that people seem to suggest it to be.
I'm not as familiar with Space Marines, but don't a vast majority of auras/abilities trigger only for fellow <Chapter> members? Wouldn't that at least something of a limiting factor in terms of cherry-picking the best of each unit?
That would have less of an effect if you don't rely on auras/abilities, or if you're making an effectively independent force (Hello, White Scars Outrider Detachment!), but while it seems facially bonkers, particularly given the strength of these Chapter Tactics, it seems like it might be more limited in practice than it facially suggests.
It will also depend heavily on what the unique Strategems do. The unique strategems might be less attractive if they fail to boost more than a third of your army at any given time...
We don't know yet - people will be startign to work how to use and abuse them pretty quickly.
Perfect Organism wrote: How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
Or they won't be increased, and everyone else will be similarly buffed faction by faction.
GW have said they willl (eventually) do similar things for some of the factions and sub factions. Now they have also said that there will be about 10 codexes released before Christmas - 3 of these have already been confirmed _ Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard
Then its likely to be Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels
Might be room for a couple of non marine codexes - I would think Daemons, Orks and Eldar, plus maybe Necrons - Unless any other Marine dexes slip in.
Anyone else likely 2018 at the earliest - So Tau, Gaurd, Agents, Dark Eldar.
A long time.
I seriously hope they would at least keep to the 1 Imperium/1 Xenox release pattern in the macro and give us 5 and 5.
If we get 10 marine codexes, and 0 Xenos, in the next 5 months, I'm going to flip a freaking table.
Hmm might need to get that table flip ready:
The first four Codexes are Marines/ Chaos Marines/Marines/ Chaos Marines - I would be surprised if we get more than Daemons, Orks and Eldar - Daemons is most likely as the whole focus is frimly Imeprial vs Chaos - Plus we are likely to get a Primus Marines Codex given how Stormcast Army books we got!
Sad that they did not go With Powers of Chaos Dexes.
Well what the hell else do you WANT from Imperial Fists?
What i want is to see the strats.
im perfectly fine with bland
its the pragmatic way.
Same here. Imperial Fists have never had exciting tactics, why should they start now? I would love to see the Strategies more than anything. Perhaps that is where our Tank Hunters and massive amounts of shooting will crop up. Something like Spend 2 CP = Rerolls to wound for all units with CT.
Well what the hell else do you WANT from Imperial Fists?
Personally I see the unrelenting stubborn nature of the Imperial Fists to be more important defining trait than the siege mastery. It is also something that is shared by their successors, while the siege mastery necessarily isn't. Granted, I cannot from top of my head say by what sort of rule I'd like that to be represented.
Well what the hell else do you WANT from Imperial Fists?
Personally I see the unrelenting stubborn nature of the Imperial Fists to be more important defining trait than the siege mastery. It is also something that is shared by their successors, while the siege mastery necessarily isn't. Granted, I cannot from top of my head say by what sort of rule I'd like that to be represented.
Steady under fire and purposeful retreat is pretty well covered by the Ultramarines CT amusingly
Well what the hell else do you WANT from Imperial Fists?
Personally I see the unrelenting stubborn nature of the Imperial Fists to be more important defining trait than the siege mastery. It is also something that is shared by their successors, while the siege mastery necessarily isn't. Granted, I cannot from top of my head say by what sort of rule I'd like that to be represented.
Steady under fire and purposeful retreat is pretty well covered by the Ultramarines CT amusingly
Yeah. Can I trade my worthless building blow up ability for +1 Leadership?
+1 ld Or no move penelty for heavy weapons could of been it
though might be way too strong on top of ignore cover.
actually though going by GWs design philosophy it probably doesn't work.
+1 ld would of been right or some form of moral bonus in combat or something. (while still being fairly usless since for the most part if it ever came up you would of been wiped or super ineffective anyway)
Ignore cover heavy bolters are going to be great for clearing chaff. This fits Imperial Fist pretty well. Whats kinda sad is Centurions already do this and were already the best way to use heavy bolters. Sadly the CT will not effect dakka preds.
Strangely enough - Black Templar Vanguard Veterans are set to become a premium alpha strike unit. With all the storm Raven Spam - a reroll charge assault squad with the fly rule + thunderhammers will end their day in short order.
White Scars Command bikers with their 35 inch threat range are also extremely scary. Scout bikes are at 37 inch max charge range! Nothing is safe!
Salamanders will be running 10 man devs split into combat squads 2 heavies each. Reroll your miss - then reroll your failed wound. Great deficiency there. Will probably look like old school gladius formation except it will be green.
Ultras will be your standard Guiliman powerball - devs/hellblasters/scoutbikes - holding the line and putting out vicious firepower even on the retreat.
Ravengaurd will be dread spam and dev spam.
It's very possible competitive will see a lot of alliances between chapters because some units are just clearly better options for certain chapters.
Desubot wrote: +1 ld Or no move penelty for heavy weapons could of been it
though might be way too strong on top of ignore cover.
actually though going by GWs design philosophy it probably doesn't work.
+1 ld would of been right or some form of moral bonus in combat or something. (while still being fairly usless since for the most part if it ever came up you would of been wiped or super ineffective anyway)
Imperial Fists are the most stubborn Space Marines in existence(the Excoriators have turned it into an attorney). The entire reason the Iron Cage was so bad was because they refused to back down. +1 Ld would have been perfect.
Looking at our relics, I really hope that we get something brand new (Imperial Fists at least, Crimson Fists likely will get something new). Two of the relics are literally overridden by the new chapter tactics (and really, a basic bolt pistol that does two wounds...no). One is Librarian only. One is Chaplain only. One is standard bearer only.
Man, I forgot how awful our relics were (outside the Bones of Osrak)...
Ratius wrote: Ally a bunch of all these chapter tactic units together into a coherent force and you'd have a key for every lock..... #scary
Have units with the [imperial], [Chaos] or [Aeldari] keywords not been able to ally with each other and be used to cover each other's weaknesses until chapter tactics came along?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unusual Suspect wrote: ...While having separate Chapter Tactics for each Detachment seems facially possible and legal, I'm not sure its the God Tier army creation choice that people seem to suggest it to be.
It isn't. No one is interested in paying to have like 4 HQ's in their army just to mix and match chapter tactics.
Desubot wrote: +1 ld Or no move penelty for heavy weapons could of been it
though might be way too strong on top of ignore cover.
actually though going by GWs design philosophy it probably doesn't work.
+1 ld would of been right or some form of moral bonus in combat or something. (while still being fairly usless since for the most part if it ever came up you would of been wiped or super ineffective anyway)
Imperial Fists are the most stubborn Space Marines in existence(the Excoriators have turned it into an attorney). The entire reason the Iron Cage was so bad was because they refused to back down. +1 Ld would have been perfect.
Looking at our relics, I really hope that we get something brand new (Imperial Fists at least, Crimson Fists likely will get something new). Two of the relics are literally overridden by the new chapter tactics (and really, a basic bolt pistol that does two wounds...no). One is Librarian only. One is Chaplain only. One is standard bearer only.
Man, I forgot how awful our relics were (outside the Bones of Osrak)...
Well I'm not sure how the current relics would be handled as they mostly involve cover, which they ignore altogether now.
Still I didn't think the Pistol was THAT bad, but since Pistols were bad last edition it was bound to be bad. 5 points, well, you get what you pay for.
It really isn't. Just get close to them. The game gives you the tools for it.
If its fine fighting Tau, who have a permanent hit modifier on some of their units no matter the distance, and flyers, then its fine with Raven Guard.
Painted my Marine bike list in Red since everyone has a red colored Successor Chapter. I've always just run them as WS but I might consider trying out some of the other ones. Red Scars are the Rampagers. Red UM are the Genesis Chapter, and red IH are the Red Talons.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Painted my Marine bike list in Red since everyone has a red colored Successor Chapter. I've always just run them as WS but I might consider trying out some of the other ones. Red Scars are the Rampagers. Red UM are the Genesis Chapter, and red IH are the Red Talons.
Oh noes, that makes you TFG and a cheater! </sarcasm>
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
Edit - Misread it, White Scar can charge after Falling Back. Not Charge after Advancing.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
White scars dont get to advance and charge by default, they probably need to spend CP for it.
Falling back and being able to charge again is both pretty strong and fluffy though.
It really isn't. Just get close to them. The game gives you the tools for it.
If its fine fighting Tau, who have a permanent hit modifier on some of their units no matter the distance, and flyers, then its fine with Raven Guard.
1 Guy has a permanent hit modifier
Flyers are a narrow amount of models, and are considered fairly OP at moment. So it's not really "fine" on them either.
As well as Raven Guard Flyers will give a -2
Not even list is meant to get close to the enemy. Doing so is basically losing as well.
The game gives some armies/lists the tools to for it. Unless you're saying everyone should play armies who are tanky, great at melee, and great at shooting... Space Marines.
It really isn't. Just get close to them. The game gives you the tools for it.
If its fine fighting Tau, who have a permanent hit modifier on some of their units no matter the distance, and flyers, then its fine with Raven Guard.
1 Guy has a permanent hit modifier
Flyers are a narrow amount of models, and are considered fairly OP at moment. So it's not really "fine" on them either.
As well as Raven Guard Flyers will give a -2
Not even list is meant to get close to the enemy. Doing so is basically losing as well.
The game gives some armies/lists the tools to for it. Unless you're saying everyone should play armies who are tanky, great at melee, and great at shooting... Space Marines.
Advised you read the rules first, chapter tactics only affect Infantry, bikes and dreads
It really isn't. Just get close to them. The game gives you the tools for it. If its fine fighting Tau, who have a permanent hit modifier on some of their units no matter the distance, and flyers, then its fine with Raven Guard.
1 Guy has a permanent hit modifier Flyers are a narrow amount of models, and are considered fairly OP at moment. So it's not really "fine" on them either. As well as Raven Guard Flyers will give a -2
Not even list is meant to get close to the enemy. Doing so is basically losing as well. The game gives some armies/lists the tools to for it. Unless you're saying everyone should play armies who are tanky, great at melee, and great at shooting... Space Marines.
Pretty sure flyers can't benefit from Chapter Tactics, just infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts. TIL Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau and Nids are Space Marines. I'm fairly certain they all have the tools to get up close and circumvent the -1 hit modifier. Who said anything about charging them? Once you get within 12" you can unload everything onto them with no penalties. Kind of like what Scourges, Deathmarks, Monoliths and Battlesuits can do.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
Yes we do, it was leaked. Reroll charges. This is the thread with it.
Edit: I suspect you might have meant what strategems now that I think about it.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
I hope they get a stratagem that allows them to move forward a variable distance whenever they take casualties. I remember them having that in 4th ed, and it was certainly a unique little rule they had.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
I hope they get a stratagem that allows them to move forward a variable distance whenever they take casualties.
I remember them having that in 4th ed, and it was certainly a unique little rule they had.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
I hope they get a stratagem that allows them to move forward a variable distance whenever they take casualties.
I remember them having that in 4th ed, and it was certainly a unique little rule they had.
That should have been their Chapter Tactic.
Yeah, I'm actually really surprised they didn't get that.
I guess it's because it would be kind of awkward to write the rule for the dreadnaughts, as if a dreadnaught takes a casualty, well then there's nothing left in the unit to advance, but still.
I guess it might have been "whenever the unit takes a wound", but then you have a case where if a bunch of reivers (2W models) take a wound they get a free move at full model strength.
Yeah, I'm actually really surprised they didn't get that.
I guess it's because it would be kind of awkward to write the rule for the dreadnaughts, as if a dreadnaught takes a casualty, well then there's nothing left in the unit to advance, but still.
I guess it might have been "whenever the unit takes a wound", but then you have a case where if a bunch of reivers (2W models) take a wound they get a free move at full model strength.
"2 inches per wound, up to 6 inches max" or whatever.
Median Trace wrote: Iron Hands Venerable Dreadnoughts ignore any wound 33% of the time. That isn't bad. Glad I have a bunch of these.
My hunch is that the Iron Hands Stratagem will have something to do with healing wounds on units with the Chapter Tactic.
It's actually less than 33%
1/6 of wounds saved with the venerable roll.
1/6 of 5/6 wounds saved with the CT roll.
So 11/36 or 30.5%.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Also, if people find these CT bland, there is still the Strategems an Relics that will add more flavoring
I'm willing to bet BT get a stratagem that says 'pay 2CP after taking any unsaved wounds and you may immediately take a move action.' or something similar.
Salamanders player here. Our CT seems quite potent if... well. Kind of bland, actually. I was expecting at least some bonus to our heat weapons. But, hey, it'll make the plasma I like to load up on more viable.
TheCustomLime wrote: Salamanders player here. Our CT seems quite potent if... well. Kind of bland, actually. I was expecting at least some bonus to our heat weapons. But, hey, it'll make the plasma I like to load up on more viable.
Dont break those flamers off yet
it was said in the successor opinion piece that a flamer based stratagem exists.
TheCustomLime wrote: Salamanders player here. Our CT seems quite potent if... well. Kind of bland, actually. I was expecting at least some bonus to our heat weapons. But, hey, it'll make the plasma I like to load up on more viable.
That would probably be in the form of a stratagem.
It seems that CT = general buffs that affect most units, no matter their loadout
Stratagems = specific buffs that concern a unit or weapon type.
trying to figure out what CTs I'll likely use for my Blood Ravens (assuming FW doesn't release BR chapter tactics with Gabriel Angelos.. and even then after the indices I'm not sure I trust FW to write good rules on that score)
I disagree with the idea of using Imperial Fist tactics in the article, to be blunt it doesn't seem like the Blood Ravens AT ALL, whom are more well known for meticulas planning with the aid of Libarian divinations etc. I'm thinking more Raven Guard or Ultramarines as both chapters strtike me as if they're going to be among the better to represent a force that has planned for all contingencies.
on another note I actually called it on the Iron Hands tactics
TheCustomLime wrote: Salamanders player here. Our CT seems quite potent if... well. Kind of bland, actually. I was expecting at least some bonus to our heat weapons. But, hey, it'll make the plasma I like to load up on more viable.
Dont break those flamers off yet
it was said in the successor opinion piece that a flamer based stratagem exists.
That's why I magnetize most of my options. And I'd never get rid of all my flamers.
Strategems, eh? Sounds interesting. I can't wait to get my hands on the Codex!
BrianDavion wrote: trying to figure out what CTs I'll likely use for my Blood Ravens
Thousand suns?
you could do iron hands "lucky" 6+ FNP
or sally since they probably have a massive collection of sally master crafted weapons.
just think every time I re-rolled I could state "it was a gift!" Sallies was tempting but it sounds like they use flamer bases stratigiums which wouldn't be that great for me with my army as stands (I'm not sure I HAVE any flamers Iron Hands might work, the Blood Ravens seem to cheat death in every dawn of war game. ANY OTHER chapter would be dead having taken the kinda beatings they have.
BrianDavion wrote: trying to figure out what CTs I'll likely use for my Blood Ravens
Thousand suns?
you could do iron hands "lucky" 6+ FNP
or sally since they probably have a massive collection of sally master crafted weapons.
just think every time I re-rolled I could state "it was a gift!" Sallies was tempting but it sounds like they use flamer bases stratigiums which wouldn't be that great for me with my army as stands (I'm not sure I HAVE any flamers Iron Hands might work, the Blood Ravens seem to cheat death in every dawn of war game. ANY OTHER chapter would be dead having taken the kinda beatings they have.
From their old article it sounds like you can at least pick and choose from the "general" stratagems, so you might not even have to use the Salamander Stratagems when running a Salamander Chapter Tactic.
The Stratagems are especially exciting; the Space Marines codex has 26 new Stratagems for you to play with. These allow you to customise your army even more – as well as general Stratagems, there’s also one for each Chapter, as well as Stratagems focused around specific units.
yeah, over all seems plenty exciting. I might experiment with chapter tactics and see what one I like best, I ran ultramarines last edition, before finally getting around to beginning a blood ravens project I'd always wanted to do just as 8th was announced (which elft me sitting on a full demi battle company just waiting to be assmbled until the index hit) having the freedom to play with differant CTs without feeling like a colossal dick is gonna be kinda nice
Median Trace wrote: Iron Hands Venerable Dreadnoughts ignore any wound 33% of the time. That isn't bad. Glad I have a bunch of these.
My hunch is that the Iron Hands Stratagem will have something to do with healing wounds on units with the Chapter Tactic.
It's actually less than 33%
1/6 of wounds saved with the venerable roll.
1/6 of 5/6 wounds saved with the CT roll.
So 11/36 or 30.5%.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Also, if people find these CT bland, there is still the Strategems an Relics that will add more flavoring
I'm willing to bet BT get a stratagem that says 'pay 2CP after taking any unsaved wounds and you may immediately take a move action.' or something similar.
Brain-farted on my conditional probabilities. Still, 30% chance for any wound is good.
Dionysodorus wrote: Templars' seems only okay. Re-rolling charges is primarily relevant if you're deep-striking with more than one unit (otherwise you can just use a CP). So it strongly pushes them towards that style of play but I don't know that that's a very strong style of play in the first place.
Siege Masters' is going to be a huge deal in some matchups and useless in others.
Salamanders' is incredible. If you're shooting a large number of shots, it is like you're getting an extra 1.67 shots in the volley, which is fine. If you're shooting one shot which hits and wounds on a 3+, it is a 77% increase in expected damage. This is a huge boost in damage output for ranged dreadnoughts but also for the special/heavy weapons in tactical squads.
Iron Hands' is fine. Can't complain about 6+ FNP. This is probably overall preferable to Raven Guard's thing against BS3+. It's also worth noting that FNP plays really nicely with multi-wound models like bikers and Terminators since they're far more likely to survive a plasma hit.
The Iron Hands tactic is garbage. If you ever played Iron Hands outside of smash you would know that. If it was 5+ it would be reliable and something you could build around. Plus it only workers on infantry, bikes, and dreads. It might be okay on dreads, but with the lack of a decent dread delivery system it still makes dreads less than useful. And not to mention expensive. I can't even to afford the points to field my vehicles like I used to.
If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Arachnofiend wrote: If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Nah it's pretty weak. I'm guessing there's going to be Strategems and stuff to make up for it, though.
Arachnofiend wrote: If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Nah it's pretty weak. I'm guessing there's going to be Strategems and stuff to make up for it, though.
i bet its going to be self repair a vehicle or something.
Median Trace wrote: Brain-farted on my conditional probabilities. Still, 30% chance for any wound is good.
Indeed!
Too bad there isn't a character dreadnought for IH, then you could take the Warlord trait.
Chaplain dread
There you go. 6+ x3 or...
so 91/216 or 42%.
Bjorn is better at 5++ and then 6+ for warlord. 44%.
IH aren't even supposed to have chaplains...They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. And I really dislike rules that are only good on one specific unit or model. It is bad design. I don't much like ven dreads or their cost. Never liked smash, but I was forced to play him due to local meta. I don't see myself using vehicles this edition. They are too expensive and seem tougher but underwhelming so far in my games. Very unhappy this edition. The IH lost even more of what they used to have this edition.
Arachnofiend wrote: If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Nah it's pretty weak. I'm guessing there's going to be Strategems and stuff to make up for it, though.
I wouldn't count on it. They most likely will give the IH garbage and tell us to be grateful that they gave us that.
This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
Talamare wrote: Black Templar vs White Scar in an Assault List...
White Scar - d6+2" + 2d6" effective charges
Black Templar - reroll 2d6"
I get that Black Templar will have slightly more option for a combined arms army, but White Scar will just be advantaged again when it comes to Assault Guns.
You have to use CP to get the advance and charge for WS.
And we don't know what the BT get until they have their chapter focus.
Yes we do, it was leaked. Reroll charges. This is the thread with it.
Edit: I suspect you might have meant what strategems now that I think about it.
As we were talking about CP, I was talking about their stratagem. Not the CT.
Very interesting reading, the new tactics! Having not played other editions of Warhammer 40k it is hard to compare to the past however looking at the new ones and coming from AOS here are my thoughts;
(obviously we do not have any further info so it so solely based on what we know)
Top Tier
Raven Guard: -1 is incredibly powerful, especially in the early stages of the game where there is allot of shooting taking place. You can safely sit back and win most exchanges with a few Rifle Dreadnaughts or heavy weapon squads. If this stacks with cover saves it will be crazy good! This also makes not getting the first turn not hurt so bad! You do have to worry about letting your opponent get into 12" early so blocking Deep Strikers might be important, however its not a downside it just means they attack as normal.
Second Tier
White Scars: Not only do they get up the board faster than most, they can also do one of the most annoying things in the game IMO. Fall back from combat, have other units shoot the unit and then dive back in to finish them off if needed as they will get to hit first..
Ultramarines: As I understand it shooting has always been king? Therefore, any opportunity to gain additional shooting must be good. When you factor in the amount of re-rolls Ultramarines can get the -1 to hit after falling back might not be as big a deal. It also means everyone can shoot at the unit that was formerly engaged in combat. The +1 Leadership is a nice token gesture to the ‘tactical’ marine army and will save a few models in the physic phase and occasionally from morale checks.
Salamanders: Once the disappointment settles down from the fact there was nothing specifically about flamers I think we will conclude this is decent. Any unit with a high weapon skill (3+) and a heavy weapon with few shots will love this rule. It will an interesting balancing act with some characters re-roll auras, however there will be a sweet spot.
Third Tier
Iron Hands: Ignoring damage on a 6 is kind of boring however it does add up over the course of the game. One downside as I understand it, Iron Hand players like to run Vehicles which in many cases might not get this benefit? If it turns out all vehicles get this rule then it would fit the fluff much better and become much more potent.
Situational
Black Templars: Getting a successful charge from Deep Strike even with re-rolls is no guarantee. If you get out deployed this tactical benefit may be totally useless. However, if you can get your units where you want them to be then it could provide exceptionally powerful. This is one where good players will make it look broken and the for the rest of us we will complain its underpowered. Unlike White Scars of Ultramarines this rewards out playing your opponent, versus a noob friendly 'get out of jail' option.
Imperial Fists: I confess I have no idea what happens to a unit inside a building when it is destroyed and do not have the rule book with me. However, unlike the Black Templars how good this tactic is is totally dependent on the terrain you are playing with. Is the board full of cover? Yes, then you will be getting +1 to hit or forcing your opponents out into the open whereby you can benefit from -1 cover. No, then you won’t receive the benefit very often. What I dislike about this is that you cannot really build around it, its an on the day boon that gets better with every piece of terrain you add. It could be tier 1 or totally useless. Another thing to consider is how this would interact with abilities that act “as if you where in cover”…if that was included maybe this would become slightly less situational?
Overall we will not know how good these tactical advantages are until we see the units and other tactical options each chapter gets! TBH what do I know being a new 40K player haha....
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
Assuming GW gives them chapter tactics at all. I think they will, but it's possiable GW won't give blood angels etc their own. conversly it's possiable that GW'll go beyond what we expect and give several sets of chapter tactics to represent not only the blood angels but specific sucessors. (which would be awesome)
NorseSig wrote: IH aren't even supposed to have chaplains...They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. And I really dislike rules that are only good on one specific unit or model. It is bad design. I don't much like ven dreads or their cost. Never liked smash, but I was forced to play him due to local meta. I don't see myself using vehicles this edition. They are too expensive and seem tougher but underwhelming so far in my games. Very unhappy this edition. The IH lost even more of what they used to have this edition.
You don't think vehicles are good this edition? I guess you haven't faced Razorback Spam yet. I don't know if you classify fliers as vehicles, but the Storm Raven is significantly under costed. I don't bring them to casual games anymore. Dreads aren't great but they aren't unplayable. I wish my Venerable Dreads were of the Rifleman bent.
Arachnofiend wrote: If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Nah it's pretty weak. I'm guessing there's going to be Strategems and stuff to make up for it, though.
but... it isn't. Considering how people drooled over the RG tactic, this response confuses me. From the other thread:
SilverAlien wrote: So let's do some math hammer comparing Raven Guard and Iron hands being shot by 30 bolters rounds and 30 las rounds (from a SM and guardsman respectively)
Spoiler:
Raven Guard outside 12 inches:
30*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 2.5 wounds average
30*(1/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.1 wounds average
Raven Guard inside 12 inches (or being stabbed in cc, etc):
30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 3.3 wounds average
30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.7 wounds average
Iron Hands anywhere:
30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 2.8 wounds average
30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 1.4 wounds average
So I am still not sure I agree with the consensus RG tactics are that much better than iron hands. Particularly for units that expect to be in melee or rapid fire range, which is a fairly considerable portion of your infantry, who are the main recipients of CTs that we know of.
If it was a 5+ it'd be far an away the best tactic. As is it's more widely applicable than the RG tactic, but a not quite as effective. Still, it's more than people think.
If it was a 5+ it'd be far an away the best tactic. As is it's more widely applicable than the RG tactic, but a not quite as effective. Still, it's more than people think.
Hows about those odd high damage weapons.
like say a lascannon or auto cannon.
personally i just dont like it because you are DEPENDING on 6s. and im not lucky
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
Assuming GW gives them chapter tactics at all. I think they will, but it's possiable GW won't give blood angels etc their own. conversly it's possiable that GW'll go beyond what we expect and give several sets of chapter tactics to represent not only the blood angels but specific sucessors. (which would be awesome)
I would like to see Flesh Testers get their own Chapter Tactics.
I strongly suspect Chapter Tactics will be given to every Chapter. Otherwise we are back to people running Red Marines.
Arachnofiend wrote: If it was 5+ they'd be stepping on Death Guard's toes. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get additional rolls to save a wound in this edition, the IH tactic is great.
Nah it's pretty weak. I'm guessing there's going to be Strategems and stuff to make up for it, though.
but... it isn't. Considering how people drooled over the RG tactic, this response confuses me. From the other thread:
SilverAlien wrote: So let's do some math hammer comparing Raven Guard and Iron hands being shot by 30 bolters rounds and 30 las rounds (from a SM and guardsman respectively)
Spoiler:
Raven Guard outside 12 inches:
30*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 2.5 wounds average
30*(1/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.1 wounds average
Raven Guard inside 12 inches (or being stabbed in cc, etc):
30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 3.3 wounds average
30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.7 wounds average
Iron Hands anywhere:
30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 2.8 wounds average
30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 1.4 wounds average
So I am still not sure I agree with the consensus RG tactics are that much better than iron hands. Particularly for units that expect to be in melee or rapid fire range, which is a fairly considerable portion of your infantry, who are the main recipients of CTs that we know of.
If it was a 5+ it'd be far an away the best tactic. As is it's more widely applicable than the RG tactic, but a not quite as effective. Still, it's more than people think.
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
Assuming GW gives them chapter tactics at all. I think they will, but it's possiable GW won't give blood angels etc their own. conversly it's possiable that GW'll go beyond what we expect and give several sets of chapter tactics to represent not only the blood angels but specific sucessors. (which would be awesome)
I would like to see Flesh Testers get their own Chapter Tactics.
I strongly suspect Chapter Tactics will be given to every Chapter. Otherwise we are back to people running Red Marines.
ohh I agree too, they'll get something. they did last edition after all (dark angels, space wolves and blood angels all had at least one extra USR, GW never called it chapter tactics but that's pretty obvious what it was)
I'd honestly not mind seeing CTs for sucessor chapters as I'd like to see dark angels, blood angels and even space wolves whom not have them, to feel ENCHOURAGED to play sucessor chapters
These buffs are mainly for infantry (including cavalry I assume), correct? Not tanks, who don't get it. How many multi damage weapons are being fire at primarily single wound infantry? Even on bikes and terminators, who will often be in rapid fire range or close combat, it still evens out alright. It's worse for most longer ranged primaris and riflemen dreadnoughts I fully admit.
I suppose it is odd that the units this tactic does less for comparatively are ones you'd expect to see in IH players sue. Dreadnoughts, devastators, centurions, etc all get a little less from it competitively. Still, that's an issue with weird flavor problems more than the actual tactic being that much weaker. I still maintain they are fairly on par.
These buffs are mainly for infantry (including cavalry I assume), correct? Not tanks, who don't get it. How many multi damage weapons are being fire at primarily single wound infantry? Even on bikes and terminators, who will often be in rapid fire range or close combat, it still evens out alright. It's worse for most longer ranged primaris and riflemen dreadnoughts I fully admit.
I suppose it is odd that the units this tactic does less for comparatively are ones you'd expect to see in IH players sue. Dreadnoughts, devastators, centurions, etc all get a little less from it competitively. Still, that's an issue with weird flavor problems more than the actual tactic being that much weaker. I still maintain they are fairly on par.
It happens when something isn't better to shoot at. So you show that there's BARELY a difference in rapid fire range with Raven Guard (where they don't get their ability), and then you say "Well those weapons aren't going to be fired at them". Cut the crap.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It happens when something isn't better to shoot at. So you show that there's BARELY a difference in rapid fire range with Raven Guard (where they don't get their ability), and then you say "Well those weapons aren't going to be fired at them". Cut the crap.
The difference between RF range and melee RG and IH is almost the exact same as the difference between IH and RG when RG is benefiting from their chapter tactic. Yes multiwound weapons will be fired at the sometimes, which will minimize the advantage. I was simply pointing out the majority of units who benefit from CT either won't normally be targeted by MW weapons, or will so often find themselves at close range that it still is arguably as useful as the RG tactic would be. I also haven't brought up the handful of autohit weapons, or psychic powers which don't have a hit roll, etc.
I'm just saying I don't think the gap is that wide.
For those who aren't really happy with these, honestly what can be done? The base rules don't allow much subtlety, all they can really do is +1 here, ignore this rule there, etc...
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
At this point, I expect Blood Angels to get shafted due to the amount of people likely complaining about the Ultramarines and Raven Guard chapter tactics.
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
Assuming GW gives them chapter tactics at all. I think they will, but it's possiable GW won't give blood angels etc their own. conversly it's possiable that GW'll go beyond what we expect and give several sets of chapter tactics to represent not only the blood angels but specific sucessors. (which would be awesome)
I would like to see Flesh Testers get their own Chapter Tactics.
I strongly suspect Chapter Tactics will be given to every Chapter. Otherwise we are back to people running Red Marines.
ohh I agree too, they'll get something. they did last edition after all (dark angels, space wolves and blood angels all had at least one extra USR, GW never called it chapter tactics but that's pretty obvious what it was)
I'd honestly not mind seeing CTs for sucessor chapters as I'd like to see dark angels, blood angels and even space wolves whom not have them, to feel ENCHOURAGED to play sucessor chapters
The difference between Flesh Testers and other successor chapters is that they, like the Crimson Fists, are a Second Founding Chapter with a very iconic character. Perhaps they won't get their own tactics, but I fully expect them getting their own Relic, Strategems, and Warlord Traits.
I really hope Blood Angels get a variant of Furious Charge. Perhaps even something like Hammer of Wrath. I dunno. Space Wolves hopefully will get something like the ability to interrupt charges for free. Who knows about Dark Angels.
Melissia wrote: This thread is actually making me look forward to Blood Angels. I expected BA to get what BTs got, but now I'm seriously curious what BA are gonna get.
At this point, I expect Blood Angels to get shafted due to the amount of people likely complaining about the Ultramarines and Raven Guard chapter tactics.
Seeing as the books are most likely either printed or printing as we speak, I seriously doubt GW gives a crap about what people are saying about the current chapter tactics in relation to the upcoming ones. Not only that, but I seriously doubt they take all the knee jerking reactions to heart. At least I sure hope they don't.
Grand total number of dakka players who have tested out the chapter tactics, stratagems, relics, powers, and altered units from the new codex: 0 (zero). Anyone making decisions right now is a fool of a took.
The Iron Hands tactic is garbage. If you ever played Iron Hands outside of smash you would know that. If it was 5+ it would be reliable and something you could build around. Plus it only workers on infantry, bikes, and dreads. It might be okay on dreads, but with the lack of a decent dread delivery system it still makes dreads less than useful. And not to mention expensive. I can't even to afford the points to field my vehicles like I used to.
I mean, this is just math.
Against BS3+, the Raven Guard's tactic means you suffer 25% fewer hits, and in most cases that translates into 25% fewer wounds. The Iron Hands' means you suffer 16% fewer wounds. Basically the Raven Guard have 5.5+ FNP against BS3+ shooting from more than 12", while the Iron Hands get somewhat less protection at range in exchange for resistance to close-in shooting (like rapid-firing bolters or plasma), close combat, and mortal wounds. These seem pretty comparable and which one is better will depend on what you tend to go up against.
Raven Guard certainly have an advantage against BS4+, but on the other hand the most common source of this is Guard, who have easy access to deep strikers like scion command squads. A Raven Guard list that's just a bunch of Devastators and dreads definitely has an edge against parking lot Guard, though. Some Tau builds are really bad against Raven Guard, but on the other hand it seems like a lot of the most popular stuff now is pretty short-ranged. People like Commanders with fusion guns, gun drones with 18" range, Ghostkeels with 18-24" range, and I think the Forgeworld Y'vahra which can't actually shoot past 12" anyway. So there are definitely going to be Guard and Tau lists where you prefer the 6+ FNP. Oh right, and against BS4+ Tyranids you probably want the 6+ FNP because you're worried about Genestealers, and a lot of their shooting is pretty close-range anyway.
And then Raven Guard are ridiculously good against shooty Orks outside of 12". I'm not sure how much of this there is. Orks are mostly known for CC and you obviously want the Iron Hands' tactic there.
dosiere wrote: For those who aren't really happy with these, honestly what can be done? The base rules don't allow much subtlety, all they can really do is +1 here, ignore this rule there, etc...
Agreed, the base rules took subtlety out back, stole the b and smashed the rest over the head with it.
The take away here is never build a GW chapter. I see a lot of people unhappy about their own chapter tactic and jealous of someone's elses. The people who have it say it sucks and the people who don't say it's awesome! lol
Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.
what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?
Then they will even out with the other chapters. If the Iron Hands have the absolutely kick ass Warlord Trait and Relic (Chains of the Gorgon perhaps?), people will be eating their words on their chapter tactics blowing. And honestly, given that the most commonly used Warlord trait, in my experience, has been the Ignore Wound one, they will have their Warlord trait freed up for something cool.
Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?
If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
It sounds like everyone in your club is TFG.
It's a game, wanting the bonus that suits your playstyle is completely par for the course.
Hell, maybe on Tuesday I want to play Salamanders and on Thursday I want to play White Scars.
I'm not going to repaint all my stuff every 2 days just to play with bonus change.
Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?
If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
It sounds like everyone in your club is TFG.
It's a game, wanting the bonus that suits your playstyle is completely par for the course.
Hell, maybe on Tuesday I want to play Salamanders and on Thursday I want to play White Scars. I'm not going to repaint all my stuff every 2 days just to play with bonus change.
So if an army looks like ultramarines and has ultramarine livery but acts like salamaders and uses salamander tactics, its fine then? What, are they really Alpha Legionnaires who forgot to change their armor before posing as sallies?
For the record, I am totally fine with people proxying chapters since these chapter tactics are kind of bland so an Ultramarines task force using "Salamanders" tactics wouldn't really play that weird. Just say they're using the page of the Codex Astartes that says to not suck at shooting or something.
Perfect Organism 733160 9499290 wrote:How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.
I imagine it will be a free bonus of your choice. For playing Space Marines.
Puscifer wrote: I played against Dark Eldar for a long while and that 6+ FNP on Wracks was a pain to get through. It saved units quite a bit.
I think we're underestimating the IH for effectiveness.
The Salamanders tactic is one reroll to both hit and wound per squad. It'll free up command points, but I'd prefer the BT, IH or RG tactics.
Idk, the sallies CT sounds really useful for meltas and lascannons.
IH probably has the most useful one, as its on all the time and is optimal in nearly all cases.
I think a lot depends on the army you want to run, which is as it should be. For instance people are going crazy for salamanders but if I have a character giving me re-rolls already it isn't such a huge boost. Whereas if I want to run a abundantly of dreads with tech marines backing them up to heal, that 6+ FNP could be huge. Now a lot will depend on that wins out competitively as to what we see a lot of, though right now that is storm Ravens so it is pretty irrelevant. I would say maybe rave guard is best in that build so that your token troops (if any) are harder to kill.
So if an army looks like ultramarines and has ultramarine livery but acts like salamaders and uses salamander tactics, its fine then?
What, are they really Alpha Legionnaires who forgot to change their armor before posing as sallies?
Doesn't sound like even 1% of a problem.
If it's all the same models and have the same weapon. You can use whatever Chapter Tactics you want.
What you're proposing is for people to own several thousands of dollars of the exact same models just for a minor differences in benefits during a game.
Don't know a single person that would care if you said your Ultras were Salamanders.
Me and those I play with, and most people at my club only care about the fluff very peripherally. It's all about the game and the rules, so if someone enjoys playing more with the Salamanders rules, no one will care that he is playing with the Salamanders rules.
And it would be silly if just because you painted your marines pink instead of blue, you get your pick of the Chapters.
More I think of this more convinced I am that they dropped the ball with Salamander tactics. RG might ultimately be more powerful, but at least it might result interesting games as the enemy tries to manoeuvre in the range and RG tries to keep the distance. Salamanders tactic just grants free rerolls no matter what, it is always effective. This alone would not be a problem, albeit a bit boring, IH tactic is like that as well. However, using marine characters and CPs for rerolls seemed to be an important aspect of the game, and Salamander tactics pretty much trivialises those, and that's a bad thing.
Kdash wrote: So, I see a lot of people asking about and talking about the BACT... But, doesn't is already exist in the index?
I can see the Black Rage rule as being intended as the CT, with the codex simply giving the rule to the rest of the army.
Anything else would come from a relic, warlord trait and stratagem.
Technically it is not listed as a Chapter Tactic - its more of a special thing for them. I expect they will get a CT.
It isn't a Chapter Tactic. It is listed because it is a special rule that several units have. It is not something that affects every Blood Angels unit.
Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.
Selym wrote: Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.
Yeah, well, that's just like.... your opinion, man.
Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.
what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?
Then they will even out with the other chapters. If the Iron Hands have the absolutely kick ass Warlord Trait and Relic (Chains of the Gorgon perhaps?), people will be eating their words on their chapter tactics blowing. And honestly, given that the most commonly used Warlord trait, in my experience, has been the Ignore Wound one, they will have their Warlord trait freed up for something cool.
If the IH can create smash the CT will still suck. Being able to make a single Model or unit really resilient does not make for a good CT. A good CT should be something you can build your army around and take full advantage of. You can't do that with the IHCT. Hoping for a 6 is not a good tactic or strategy. The RGCT is better simply because it can be gamed and maximized. Right now there is exactly one unit that really benefits noticeably from the IHCT and that is the Venerable Dreadnought.
As far as the whole Razorback spam thing goes, they are too expensive, you can't spam enough of them this edition for them to be effective. They are shut down too easily just by charging them, and I honestly do not like them. Dislike them almost as much as Kardan Stronos who is one of the worst characters to ever be created in the fluff imo.
IH have had the fnp ct for several editions now and it just has not been good or reliable. People vastly overestimate it's usefulness.
Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.
what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?
Sounds like an armor that increases your hqs T
Flamer strat has to be some flavor of maximize number of hits because going by the last focus they mention vulken "further" improves them and all he does now is rerolls to hit and wound for melta flamers.
MinscS2 wrote: If there's only 1 relic per chapter, I'm gonna be very dissapointed.
Fairly sure it wont be 1 relic, 1 strat. though i wonder how they are going to handle "relics" in the sense of models and war gear.
i hope we get some cool character upgrade plastic sprue.
They say here https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/16/codex-space-marines-your-first-lookgw-homepage-post-1/ that there will be one stratagem for each Chapter, with 26 total including general stratagems and unit-specific ones. They're explicit that there is only 1 exclusive Warlord trait per Chapter, with 14 total. The text suggests that the Crimson Fists have only one Relic, and I suspect that this is typical.
MinscS2 wrote: If there's only 1 relic per chapter, I'm gonna be very dissapointed.
Fairly sure it wont be 1 relic, 1 strat. though i wonder how they are going to handle "relics" in the sense of models and war gear.
i hope we get some cool character upgrade plastic sprue.
They say here https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/16/codex-space-marines-your-first-lookgw-homepage-post-1/ that there will be one stratagem for each Chapter, with 26 total including general stratagems and unit-specific ones. They're explicit that there is only 1 exclusive Warlord trait per Chapter, with 14 total. The text suggests that the Crimson Fists have only one Relic, and I suspect that this is typical.
oo i missed that. kinda bumber, maybe not.
still wonder how they are going to do these relics. if its going to just be a you guys convert it thing or if they will release a relic pack.
Could have sworn I read somewhere that there were going to be a set of like 6 warlord traits that were just general SM ones, then each Chapter had a single special trait and relic that you could only access through them. Not sure where I read that though, I think it was in one of these teasers but I don't know which.
They've ways been exclusive to HQ barring super specific examples.
Sorry my train of thought was heading towards the "Characters dont really run around doing old death star things anymore and so relics are kinda meh imho" but made a stop down derpville
Selym wrote: Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.
Yeah, well, that's just like.... your opinion, man.
Speaking as a BT player, yes it is my, like, opinion... man.
But you've got to ask yourself. In a wargame as blatantly unbalanced and poorly constructed as 40k, if you're not into the fluff, why are you even here?
Selym wrote: Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.
Yeah, well, that's just like.... your opinion, man.
Speaking as a BT player, yes it is my, like, opinion... man.
But you've got to ask yourself. In a wargame as blatantly unbalanced and poorly constructed as 40k, if you're not into the fluff, why are you even here?
Mr Morden wrote: the word from GW seems to suggest one relic per Chapter.
Two thumbs down if this is true. I expected at least some generic relics for all chapters, in addition to the (one) chapter relic.
One unique relic per chapter is fine IF there are also bunch of generic relics.
Thats basically that they have said, no? Is gonna be a a list of generic warlord traits and relicts and then the Chapter Specific ones. The same with Stratagems. I assume you are gonna be able to pick the generic ones or the specific one of your Chapter if you want. Probably the specific ones will be more powerfull for the fact of being specific and limited.
To be constructive here is how the Iron Hands CT should have worked:
Roll a dice each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. If an Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic (infantry, bikes, and dreads only) is within 6 inches of an Iron Hands model or unit with Terminator Armor; then the Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic adds 1 inch to movement, adds 1 to hit rolls with heavy weapons, and ignores a wound on a 5 or 6.
Maybe even have the IH take a Leadership penalty if they are within 6 inches of the Terminator model or unit dying as well (unit portion only applies if the entire unit is removed) for like a turn.
This would help recreate the feel of Terminator Sergeants and promote playing to the fluff.
Mr Morden wrote: the word from GW seems to suggest one relic per Chapter.
Two thumbs down if this is true. I expected at least some generic relics for all chapters, in addition to the (one) chapter relic.
One unique relic per chapter is fine IF there are also bunch of generic relics.
Thats basically that they have said, no? Is gonna be a a list of generic warlord traits and relicts and then the Chapter Specific ones. The same with Stratagems. I assume you are gonna be able to pick the generic ones or the specific one of your Chapter if you want. Probably the specific ones will be more powerfull for the fact of being specific and limited.
I am not holding out hope that the Iron Hands ones will be any good.
Mr Morden wrote: the word from GW seems to suggest one relic per Chapter.
Two thumbs down if this is true. I expected at least some generic relics for all chapters, in addition to the (one) chapter relic.
One unique relic per chapter is fine IF there are also bunch of generic relics.
Have they mentioned generic Relics? I thought it was just one per Chapter?
they're taking a look at what else is being done and extrapolating a "best case scenerio"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NorseSig wrote: To be constructive here is how the Iron Hands CT should have worked:
Roll a dice each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. If an Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic (infantry, bikes, and dreads only) is within 6 inches of an Iron Hands model or unit with Terminator Armor; then the Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic adds 1 inch to movement, adds 1 to hit rolls with heavy weapons, and ignores a wound on a 5 or 6.
Maybe even have the IH take a Leadership penalty if they are within 6 inches of the Terminator model or unit dying as well (unit portion only applies if the entire unit is removed) for like a turn.
This would help recreate the feel of Terminator Sergeants and promote playing to the fluff.
.
so in other words Iron Hands should be overpowered?
also the terminator set up's a bad one as it forces dependance on a certain type of unit, something that is distinctly against the design approuch they are taking for CTs
Thats basically that they have said, no? Is gonna be a a list of generic warlord traits and relicts and then the Chapter Specific ones. The same with Stratagems. I assume you are gonna be able to pick the generic ones or the specific one of your Chapter if you want. Probably the specific ones will be more powerfull for the fact of being specific and limited.
I remember generic warlord traits and stratagems being mentioned, but not relics.
I admit I'm a little sad to watch the development of the Chapter tactics. It really is a lot of bloat that is making me consider back pedaling and not buying into 8th.
NorseSig wrote: To be constructive here is how the Iron Hands CT should have worked:
Roll a dice each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. If an Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic (infantry, bikes, and dreads only) is within 6 inches of an Iron Hands model or unit with Terminator Armor; then the Iron Hands model or unit with this tactic adds 1 inch to movement, adds 1 to hit rolls with heavy weapons, and ignores a wound on a 5 or 6.
Maybe even have the IH take a Leadership penalty if they are within 6 inches of the Terminator model or unit dying as well (unit portion only applies if the entire unit is removed) for like a turn.
This would help recreate the feel of Terminator Sergeants and promote playing to the fluff.
Elbows wrote: I admit I'm a little sad to watch the development of the Chapter tactics. It really is a lot of bloat that is making me consider back pedaling and not buying into 8th.
How is this bloat? It's a codex that replaces the current vanilla marine entries, with a few rules and relics and Strategems.
Is anything more than Index considered bloat to you?
Generally? Yes. The "few rules and relics" etc. are pretty potent and once again begin to unravel the basic core rules of the game. That's not a good direction to head - I suspect you'll be seeing the same silliness that made 7th so god awful. I just think it's a crap direction to take the game - admittedly not surprising.
Elbows wrote: I admit I'm a little sad to watch the development of the Chapter tactics. It really is a lot of bloat that is making me consider back pedaling and not buying into 8th.
As a new player I really like this, it felt a little bland after getting my Primaris Marines. Now I can get the Codex and build an army around a chapter that fits my playstyle and be a little different to most other Space Marine players around. So far it has been, we all play basically the same units with a character that largely does the same thing with a different face. I also hope that the other chapters can now compete with Ultramarines and R Gilliman was basically the deciding factor in most games I have played so far (against other Space Marines).
so in other words Iron Hands should be overpowered?
also the terminator set up's a bad one as it forces dependance on a certain type of unit, something that is distinctly against the design approuch they are taking for CTs
It was a first thought. I believe some call it brainstorming. Honestly, it would be nice to be overpowered for a change. Instead of constantly having things taken away. I would even settle for a 5+ or something that somehow makes it so the IHCT can be built around.
Elbows wrote: Generally? Yes. The "few rules and relics" etc. are pretty potent and once again begin to unravel the basic core rules of the game. That's not a good direction to head - I suspect you'll be seeing the same silliness that made 7th so god awful. I just think it's a crap direction to take the game - admittedly not surprising.
You want the list of issues that were wrong with 7th? It had NOTHING to do with Chapter Tactics or relics. It was:
1. Characters being able to buff units not involved with their army
2. Scatterbikes and Wraithknights
3. Gladius
4. ACTUAL bloat, with several books needing to be bought if you played select armies (being both Traitors and Loyalist Scum as the worst offenders)
5. AP being a terrible all-or-nothing system
6. Riptide silliness
7. The ID mechanic
I could probably go on, but Relics and Rules weren't the issue. At all.
Thats basically that they have said, no? Is gonna be a a list of generic warlord traits and relicts and then the Chapter Specific ones. The same with Stratagems. I assume you are gonna be able to pick the generic ones or the specific one of your Chapter if you want. Probably the specific ones will be more powerfull for the fact of being specific and limited.
I remember generic warlord traits and stratagems being mentioned, but not relics.
I would be surprised if there aren't generic relics, but like you said, the lack of mention makes it seem like that will be the case. Screwing over Successor Chapters again, I see. Though it seems more like the two Successor Chapters with relics are the exception to the Successor just using the parent chapter relic.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I would be surprised if there aren't generic relics, but like you said, the lack of mention makes it seem like that will be the case. Screwing over Successor Chapters again, I see. Though it seems more like the two Successor Chapters with relics are the exception to the Successor just using the parent chapter relic.
It would totally such if there wouldn't be generic relics. There really wouldn't be a choice, the only choice you would have would be whether to take the relic or not. Super lame.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I would be surprised if there aren't generic relics, but like you said, the lack of mention makes it seem like that will be the case. Screwing over Successor Chapters again, I see. Though it seems more like the two Successor Chapters with relics are the exception to the Successor just using the parent chapter relic.
It would totally such if there wouldn't be generic relics. There really wouldn't be a choice, the only choice you would have would be whether to take the relic or not. Super lame.
Eh, given we know there are generic stratagems and warlord traits it seems likely., I wouldn't get pessimistic.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I would be surprised if there aren't generic relics, but like you said, the lack of mention makes it seem like that will be the case. Screwing over Successor Chapters again, I see. Though it seems more like the two Successor Chapters with relics are the exception to the Successor just using the parent chapter relic.
It would totally such if there wouldn't be generic relics. There really wouldn't be a choice, the only choice you would have would be whether to take the relic or not. Super lame.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think generic relics are great. I am just saying that it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't exist and one was locked the relic associated with their army's Chapter Tactics.
Just a quick note on Salamanders. One thing that may have been over looked is the fact that all SM armies have access to quality characters that effectively give re-rolls and not just to one dice.
Yes its a powerful tactic, however Salamanders cannot simply invest in characters to get -1 to hit, 6 army wide ignore wound, +1 against units in cover etc. Characters are also pretty dam good so they are hardly a tax either.
Also flamers don't use the hit re-roll and Salamander character abilities will often overlap with the Salamanders talent.
Just a few things to factor in for those that want to prove with maths that Salamanders have the best tactic. I am not saying it isn't the best just that there is more to it than we might first think.
Gibs55 wrote: Just a quick note on Salamanders. One thing that may have been over looked is the fact that all SM armies have access to quality characters that effectively give re-rolls and not just to one dice.
Yes its a powerful tactic, however Salamanders cannot simply invest in characters to get -1 to hit, 6 army wide ignore wound, +1 against units in cover etc. Characters are also pretty dam good so they are hardly a tax either.
Also flamers don't use the hit re-roll and Salamander character abilities will often overlap with the Salamanders talent.
Just a few things to factor in for those that want to prove with maths that Salamanders have the best tactic. I am not saying it isn't the best just that there is more to it than we might first think.
I wouldnt be surprised to see the Salies get a Strategem that makes flamers good.
I also reckon people are seriously downplaying 6+ FNP on the IH.
Thats a 16 percent increase in troop survivability. 1 in 6 tmarines that would be killed; now arent.
I really reckon the IF got stooged a bit. Really hoping the Crimson Fists get a sexy warlord trait, because as it is Kantor is pretty hot but the CT sucks.
The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.
Actinium wrote: The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.
True,
It is though if you want to play with other characters I guess. However the other key point still stands in that re-rolls are not hard to come by should you want them. Therefore it just needs to be factored in when it gets math hammered out as it's not quite as amazing a competitive advantage as first thought.
Actinium wrote: The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.
the CT only helps one shots so it only really effects tacticals
im sure you will still want a lieutenant or captain near it for when you inevitably roll 4 ones on those lascannon devs.
Actinium wrote: The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.
the CT only helps one shots so it only really effects tacticals
im sure you will still want a lieutenant or captain near it for when you inevitably roll 4 ones on those lascannon devs.
This is absolutely not true.
You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.
Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.
You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.
Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.
Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?
Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?
Only the blind and insane will know! Time to talk to the guy with a nappy on his head:
according to the new chapter preview today Iron Hands get a stratigium that allows them to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty. a warlord trait that grants extra attacks, and a relic weapon that is pretty solid.
looking at this it's clear to me that we should not judge based on CTs alone Chapter tactics are part of a wider picture, right now we're blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling it.
You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.
Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.
Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?
Still usefull for people that arent playing Salamanders
You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.
Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.
Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?
I see no reason to drop them from my lists though. out of 6 shots one will miss with a 1, rerollable thanks to a captain, and another one will miss, rerollable thanks to the Tactics. without the Captain I'd still have that miss. Sure, there will be some overlap (whenever you miss only one shot), but it's still pretty useful to bring a Captain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gibs55 wrote: Iron Hands tactic now includes tanks and they don't suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy or assault weapons.
This just became way better and it was already pretty good.
I didn't see that anywhere though? It's certainly not part of the Chapter Tactic for Iron Hands.
Yeah it seems like some of the more specific chapter abilities are stratagems that give permament buffs to the army. Like the chapter master buff, or the iron hands vehicle buff. That seems really cool to me.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah it seems like some of the more specific chapter abilities are stratagems that give permament buffs to the army. Like the chapter master buff, or the iron hands vehicle buff. That seems really cool to me.
Are they permanent though? I could easily imagine the IH buff to be 1 CP for 1 Tank or 2 CP for all tanks until the end of your turn for example. Nothing I've seen from GW so far would contradict (nor confirm it) that
I see no reason to drop them from my lists though. out of 6 shots one will miss with a 1, rerollable thanks to a captain, and another one will miss, rerollable thanks to the Tactics. without the Captain I'd still have that miss. Sure, there will be some overlap (whenever you miss only one shot), but it's still pretty useful to bring a Captain.
Yeah, certainly. The tactic plays pretty nicely with a Captain for things like Devastator squads since you're still 50% likely to roll at least one "2", and then you're actually more likely to get use out of the tactic on the wound roll than you were without the Captain there. You can probably think about it as Captains are only about 2/3 as effective as normal for Salamander Devastators, but that's still not bad.
Gibs55 wrote: Iron Hands tactic now includes tanks and they don't suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy or assault weapons.
This just became way better and it was already pretty good.
I didn't read it that way. It seemed to me like they were reiterating that the tactic doesn't work on vehicles, and then saying that that's okay because the Iron Hands have a stratagem that's good for vehicles. The use of "normally" (or "usually" or whatever they said) is weird since it suggests exceptions, but they seemed to be saying that Iron Hands have one of the "normal" tactics. Someone else might have an exception.
BrianDavion wrote: according to the new chapter preview today Iron Hands get a stratigium that allows them to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty. a warlord trait that grants extra attacks, and a relic weapon that is pretty solid.
looking at this it's clear to me that we should not judge based on CTs alone Chapter tactics are part of a wider picture, right now we're blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling it.
Blind Man 1: I think it's a snake.
BM2: No, it's clearly a wall with some rope for climbing.
BM3: I think it might be a cow.
This is us atm, but these CT's are convincingly powerful. And until other codexes are released, they are potentially gamebreaking.
The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.
I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.
I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.
How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.
the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.
I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.
How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.
the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.
I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.
I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.
I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.
How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.
the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.
I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.
I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.
Yea I think Iron Hands just shot up to Salamanders level, Raven Guard is still probably king (just) until we learn more.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.
I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.
How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.
the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.
I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.
I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.
Yea I think Iron Hands just shot up to Salamanders level, Raven Guard is still probably king (just) until we learn more.
I disagree. The CT of Iron Hands is just plain bad. The strategem is more of a CT than the CT and who knows what restrictions it will have. The Strategem just lets IH not operate at a complete disadvantage. And that Relic? Ugh utter garbage. I would rate IH just below UM now and UM are mid pack I feel. Only BT and IF have a worse CTimo. IF CT is either really good or garbage so it is really hard to rate, though based on my table it would be really good. Today was one of the rare days where my friends and I all had a day off so we spent it playing 40k using the previewed rules and indicies.
My list was this for 2k points games:
3 Tech Marines with Conversion Beamer, Power axe (one I used as the Axe of Medusa), boltgun
3 Venerable Dreadnoughts with x2 Twin Autocannon
3 Tactical Squads with flamer, combi-flamer, power axe
3 Razorbacks with Lascannon and Twin Plasma
2 Landspeeders with Multi-melta, Multi-melta
2 Predators with Predator Autocannon and 2 Lascannons
Ended up being 1994 points. I called it good enough for what we were doing(and Compensates for not knowing the price cost of the junk relic)
I won against the BT (shot them to pieces for the most part), just eeked a win out against the Ork player (that was a fun game), and barely against the Salamanders (he failed some critical rolls). It wasn't even a game against the RG, IF, and Guard. Semi-Close match between the UM, but his Guilliman (suicide Landspeeders failed to kill him rip) won the game for him.
What I took away from these games is that for the most part the CT are decent and not too powerful and strategems are where the IH shine. However the BT need a better CT and the IH still needs their CT buffed a little but not as much as I feared. It should be an army wide 6 roll with either a 6 reroll or a 5 and 6 for bikes, infantry, and dreads. Right now as far as CT are concerned the Venerable Dreadnought is our only tool, and with strategems the only one that truly benefits from both rules. Too bad they don't have better weapon options. The IH Strategem makes several vehicles just worth their points, though I miss being able to spam 12+ vehicles. I found myself in envy of the RG and their survivability. The fact that I love tanks really helped me last as long as I did. Conscripts when used correctly are extremely good. The IF are really good on a large table with lots of terrain and cover (we play on an 8 ft by 6ft table). I am feeling like the new sweet spot for marines, especially a vehicle heavy army, will be above 2k points.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that the lack of a Unique Character with more special rules really hurts the IH. I thought about running a captain or librarian, but what would they buff that would be a good investment for the points?
EDIT 2: Didn't mention that the BT player brought a pure fluff list with 3 max size crusader squads using 3 land raid crusaders led by Helbrecht and Grimaldus.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.
Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
It's a consistent Relic Blade. In the same manner you're paying for a Chainfist not just for the additional AP (which comes in handy in occasion) but for the consistent damage you can rely on. That's a pretty awesome deal in my book.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't really care either. It's kinda granted everyone will get a Relic that will be a weapon, because weapons you can customize and convert are cool.
IDK. I wish my canoness would get access to something akin to Relics like she used to be able to, before Space Marines stole her Blessed Weapon from her in 5th edition and called it a Relic Blade. She hasn't had anything stronger than a damn eviscerator since then, and even lost her jump pack :(
Even a Sword+1 beatstick is at least better than nothing at all.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."
Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.
I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."
Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.
Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."
Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.
I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.
The IH chapter tactic works like that mathematically but in practice not so much. It is far too random and unreliable. It does not save what you want to save or give you a reliable way to save the model/unit when you want it to. Currently there is only one unit that turns the Chapter Tactic into something more reliable, and that is the Venerable Dreadnought, which already has the 6+ FNP (Esentially) so the CT on that unit is basically a 6+ with a reroll improving your odds to get it. Other than that you really can't maximize the Iron Hands chapter Tactic like you can other chapter tactics. I am not sure spamming Ven Dreads is the best option though. In the few games I've played today I'm not sure the Ven Dreads do enough work to be worth it. The IH Chapter tactic is better on multiwound models, but most multiwound models won't benefit from the Strategems. Meaning the rules are at odds with each other. They don't synergize well. Both rules do play nice with Dreads, but I just can't build a decent all comers list around that. I don't really want to play all dread anyway, though I would like to have the ability like last 2 editions to take them in the heavy slot freeing me up for other stuff in the elites. From everything I have seen so far, IH have less options and choices than before and can't build around the CT like you sort of could in 7th (not counting smash).
If the CT was 6+ to everything with either a reroll or 5+ for infantry, dreads, and bikes along with the current strategem, or even current ct with the Strategem applying to all heavy weapons and assault weapons on vehicles, or even 6+ and Strategem to everything. I want something I can truly build around to maximize both the strategem and CT like other armies can.
OUtside that I want the old Iron Hands back with Terminator sergeants, HQ dreads, Iron Fathers, NO Chaplains, Heavy slot dreads, and a few decent Unique characters (one of which being a force multiplier).
as far as the outmanuevering opponents thing. It is not as easy as you make it sound. Alpha strike is a thing. Most armies have something that lets them reroll hits.
Not throwing toys. I have spent way too much on this army and hobby to do that. I was saying i have spent 30k+ on kits alone building my Iron Hands CHAPTER, but actually tallying things up in case I wanted to sell and get out; I am finding the figure is closer to 90k+. My, how we can collect things over time without realizing it. Now if only I could paint well enough for me to even want to show it off instead of just be embarrassed by my ability (more like lack of ability) to paint. My IH are Fugly. A whole chapter of Fugly (TM?) If I total up everything from the time, to the kits, to the paint, to the tools, the greenstuff,
the conversion stuff and bits' then I would say I have spent about 200k (probably shoulda bought myself a new pickup and house) over the entirety of my time in warhammer 40k on my Iron Hands alone. That is too much of an investment to sell, destroy, or giveaway. That doesn't count what I lost in a small room house fire due to bad wiring done by a LICENSED, REPUTABLE (LAZY) Electrician. So I am probably a little overly passionate about my Iron Hands army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.
So what else does it do? Yes, 2 damage, in melee, big whoop. I suppose if I had the combat monster to put it on that would be another story (or could deliver the damage at range which would be silly for a power axe), but that doesn't exist in the IH. The only reason people built and played smash was because he could get his points back and flat out win the game if they weren't eldar and were unprepared. Smash doesn't exist anymore. The Axe of Medusa doesn't enhance anything the IH want to do.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."
Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.
So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok
Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.
No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.
I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.
The IH chapter tactic works like that mathematically but in practice not so much. It is far too random and unreliable. It does not save what you want to save or give you a reliable way to save the model/unit when you want it to. Currently there is only one unit that turns the Chapter Tactic into something more reliable, and that is the Venerable Dreadnought, which already has the 6+ FNP (Esentially) so the CT on that unit is basically a 6+ with a reroll improving your odds to get it. Other than that you really can't maximize the Iron Hands chapter Tactic like you can other chapter tactics. I am not sure spamming Ven Dreads is the best option though. In the few games I've played today I'm not sure the Ven Dreads do enough work to be worth it. The IH Chapter tactic is better on multiwound models, but most multiwound models won't benefit from the Strategems. Meaning the rules are at odds with each other. They don't synergize well. Both rules do play nice with Dreads, but I just can't build a decent all comers list around that. I don't really want to play all dread anyway, though I would like to have the ability like last 2 editions to take them in the heavy slot freeing me up for other stuff in the elites. From everything I have seen so far, IH have less options and choices than before and can't build around the CT like you sort of could in 7th (not counting smash).
If the CT was 6+ to everything with either a reroll or 5+ for infantry, dreads, and bikes along with the current strategem, or even current ct with the Strategem applying to all heavy weapons and assault weapons on vehicles, or even 6+ and Strategem to everything. I want something I can truly build around to maximize both the strategem and CT like other armies can.
OUtside that I want the old Iron Hands back with Terminator sergeants, HQ dreads, Iron Fathers, NO Chaplains, Heavy slot dreads, and a few decent Unique characters (one of which being a force multiplier).
as far as the outmanuevering opponents thing. It is not as easy as you make it sound. Alpha strike is a thing. Most armies have something that lets them reroll hits.
Not throwing toys. I have spent way too much on this army and hobby to do that. I was saying i have spent 30k+ on kits alone building my Iron Hands CHAPTER, but actually tallying things up in case I wanted to sell and get out; I am finding the figure is closer to 90k+. My, how we can collect things over time without realizing it. Now if only I could paint well enough for me to even want to show it off instead of just be embarrassed by my ability (more like lack of ability) to paint. My IH are Fugly. A whole chapter of Fugly (TM?) If I total up everything from the time, to the kits, to the paint, to the tools, the greenstuff,
the conversion stuff and bits' then I would say I have spent about 200k (probably shoulda bought myself a new pickup and house) over the entirety of my time in warhammer 40k on my Iron Hands alone. That is too much of an investment to sell, destroy, or giveaway. That doesn't count what I lost in a small room house fire due to bad wiring done by a LICENSED, REPUTABLE (LAZY) Electrician. So I am probably a little overly passionate about my Iron Hands army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.
So what else does it do? Yes, 2 damage, in melee, big whoop. I suppose if I had the combat monster to put it on that would be another story (or could deliver the damage at range which would be silly for a power axe), but that doesn't exist in the IH. The only reason people built and played smash was because he could get his points back and flat out win the game if they weren't eldar and were unprepared. Smash doesn't exist anymore. The Axe of Medusa doesn't enhance anything the IH want to do.
Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.
I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)
BA also have Librarian Dreads as HQs. They can "inspire" units through their psychic powers, giving them a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 attack.
You're right that most chapters don't have unique units. That said, I think BA and DA do need their special units. You could definitely add a BA section to the SM book about six to ten pages long plus additional pages for art and fluff, mind you. And same for Dark Angels and probably even Space Wolves! But they do deserve their unique units, nonetheless.
Not every chapter is wildly divergent from the codex astartes... but on the flipside, not every chapter is strictly adherent to the codex astartes, either. BA, DA, SW, BT, etc all represent this to an extent.
Melissia wrote: BA also have Librarian Dreads as HQs. They can "inspire" units through their psychic powers, giving them a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 attack.
You're right that most chapters don't have unique units. That said, I think BA and DA do need their special units. You could definitely add a BA section to the SM book about six to ten pages long plus additional pages for art and fluff, mind you. And same for Dark Angels and probably even Space Wolves! But they do deserve their unique units, nonetheless.
Not every chapter is wildly divergent from the codex astartes... but on the flipside, not every chapter is strictly adherent to the codex astartes, either. BA, DA, SW, BT, etc all represent this to an extent.
At most Blood Angels should keep Death Company. Literally everything else can be covered, and arguably some options need to be open to other Chapters (Examples: for whatever reason, my Marines from the 5th edition Codex forgot to use their Heavy Flamers unless they were in a Sternguard Squad, and for whatever reason Iron Hands, a Chapter with good connections, can't get Melta Pistols or Hand Flamers). Death Angels only need to keep Deathwing and Ravenwing Knights. Plus there's really no reason these chapters shouldn't have access to Vanilla toys (TFC, Centurions, AA Tanks), other than to try and make them "unique" enough for their own Codices. It's just unnecessary. Nobody is taking the good unique options anyway (Dark Angel Fliers, Sanguine Guard).
I do think each Chapter should maybe get 1-2 unique units though. It really isn't a breaking point though.
I wouldn't object to each chapter getting unique units, either.
For example, Salamanders getting a unique veteran unit with 2+ saves, master-crafted boltguns, and chainswords that give AP-1 as well as the additional attack. Raven Guard getting a variant on Scouts that are veterans with access to superior special rules and equipment. Iron Hands having a special variant of the predator or some other vehicle. Imperial Fists gaining a specialized storm bolter squad. And so on.
Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. But these are still codex-adherent chapters, and they shouldn't go overboard.
What makes me sad is that I would love to have that UM chapter tactic on my BA now that I have seen it. Making a full company of BA and being able to shoot after falling back would be ace. Tactical Squads don't really seem like they want to be in close combat all too often unless it is to finish off a very weakened unit. Real interested to see how these new codexes develop with future releases.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion.
I dont think they will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NorseSig wrote: The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part.
I'll happily swap you what Crimson Fists get.
Ignore cover, blow up buildings and no unique strategem?
You're getting 6+ ignore wounds on all marines, dreads and bikes, and moving your tanks and firing heavy weapons with no penalty.
Ignore cover, blow up buildings and no unique strategem?
You're getting 6+ ignore wounds on all marines, dreads and bikes, and moving your tanks and firing heavy weapons with no penalty.
I'll probably do what I did half way through 6th and halfway through 7th ignore the 6+ on everything but the units that can actually make good use of it soo ven dreads and maybe other dreads as they are the only thing with enough wounds for it to matter. And I'll just use the vehicle strategem as long as it is a freebie. I guess if I have to pay for that I will have no choice. I could be wrong, have the IF focus even been released yet? I don't think it has so, so whatever your strategem is we don't know yet. Honestly, I have been focused so much on the IH that I haven't payed to close of attention to all the releases beyond a quick glance. Your IF would like the table I play on. Lots of cover to ignore, and usually a building in the center that needs to be captured and held or destroyed as a special objective. 2 points to take it. 3 more to hold it at end of game. 4 points to destroy it if the opponent controls it.
Melissia wrote: I wouldn't object to each chapter getting unique units, either.
For example, Salamanders getting a unique veteran unit with 2+ saves, master-crafted boltguns, and chainswords that give AP-1 as well as the additional attack. Raven Guard getting a variant on Scouts that are veterans with access to superior special rules and equipment. Iron Hands having a special variant of the predator or some other vehicle. Imperial Fists gaining a specialized storm bolter squad. And so on.
Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. But these are still codex-adherent chapters, and they shouldn't go overboard.
The Blood and Dark Angels were almost codex compliant chapters untill thery received the "flavour" units and weapons and such - they just had a couple of quirtks in their unit organisation.
Even Space Wolves originally did not have anything different from other Chapters but as every time they brought out a Codex they had to find ways to sell it and thats why we haev Santa Logan now. Doubtless they will need to make Primus bersions of the Flavour untis for the snowflake Chapters.
The other First Founding Chapters have mostly escaped this but also have been neglected of even a single signitire unit - so no Firedrakes for Salamanders, no Stealth units for Ravenguard etc and not even a Character for Iron Hands. One or two at most however otherwise we end up with Hand marines using Hand swords riding giant Hands. I saw them excrete this stuff form my Wolves and last thing I want to see it is for other Chapters.
For anyone who doesn't understand what the IH have become, picture this...
You've got a 6+ save after any saves have been failed. It works for Dark Eldar really well. I face DE regularly and it's annoying on them. You're fielding Marines and Terminators with this save. I'd consider it a lot more annoying when I've gotten through their armour only to find that they've made that extra save. It works.
You've also now been given the ability to move vehicles and fire heavy weapons with NO penalty. That's MASSIVE. Take a Predator Annihilator - I've moved it 12" to get into LOS and now I've fired it at full BS. Four shots on 3+ instead of 4+. That's going to hurt. True, Land Raiders and Stormraven already have this and you're not going to be as spammy with vehicles, but this is GOLDEN.
A lot of players are going to underestimate IH and dare I say it, BT too.
BT rerolling charge is a little scary when considering they can also get rerolls to hit from their Chaplains. That's going to get more guys into range more often.
We all know that the RG one is probably the most most powerful, but the others are all useable.
Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.
I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)
1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field
4. Our rules really don't support melee well even when building for it. If you can build a Smash or his equivalent then go for it. The Axe of Medusa is not something to build around. It is something to throw on a good melee unit if you have the extra points. Melee is expensive for SM to
pull off without the right rules usually. And IH tactics favor tanks (at least the strategem). You would be much better off throwing points there rather than melee units. Relic Blades are good because they can be taken in bulk on multiple units. The Axe is a one of, and I would rather have
something that provides a buff to tanks and dreads within 6 inches, which again is something the IH had.
5. IH also had access to a 5+FNP via Fist of Medusa Strike Force. If Objective Secured and free vehicles wasn't such a huge bonus this would have been a no brainer for IH. I'd say the objective secured was the most useful part.
6. We also had access to extra Techmarines which was more fluffy than useful, but this one I don't have an issue with due to the increased number of HQ slots.
Other than the Unique characters thing (Ideally other than Stronos), nothing I mentioned isn't something we haven't had before at one point or another and that other SM armies do have in one shape or another. I am surprised that people really think the Axe of Medusa will be some huge game changer. Personally I don't. It isn't any different than a weapon you'd see on a named HQ who is going to most likely be getting special rules that also buff units or the whole army (and usually at a good price). Again, I just want the things the IH USED to have, but don't now. If I got most of the other stuff I would probably care less about the crummy CT.
Don't know how your post "Shut me down," but if you saying makes you feel better; then you can have it. And while I think IH do have one of the weakest CT, our Strategem, if it works like a CT; should help mitigate the CT. I think too many are overestimating how good it is (it IS good).
Must say I'm much calmer after going out target shooting using a blown up Guilliman head on the targets. So if I got a little out of line earlier I do apologize. It doesn't change my opinion of things, but I will try to post in a more respectful manner
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion.
I dont think they will.
You thought wrong.
From today's article: ...the Imperial Fists are a great Chapter if you want to focus on using bolt weapons – their unique Stratagem, Bolter Drill, allows for you to drown enemies in devastatingly accurate fusillades of bolter fire... ...Crimson Fists armies use the bolter-based and cover-ignoring tactics of their brethren...
It specifically says the Warlord trait (7e Rampage) and the Relic (the Crimson Fist) as the only features that are unique relative to the Imperial Fists.
In other news, Black Templars deny the witch like bosses.
I personally like how bland the CT rules are, I believe its a great way to stop eventual rules bloat if the passive abilities are simple, but the Stratgems should really mix things up!
From Warhammer Twitch:
Bolter Drill: 1CP, all infantry-based bolt weapons; hits of 6 generate an extra hit (that don't generate more hits).
Not bad for a Bolter heavy army. My Centurions will be getting their Grav cannons cut off to put Heavy Bolters in their place. My Sternguard are going to be beasts, as are the Intercessors.
Slinky wrote: Is that army-wide for that 1CP, or just one unit?
It sounds like it is army-wide. The question I have is what the duration is. If it is always on like some Strategems, holy hell! If it lasts until the start of your next turn, still pretty good. Overwatch would generate two hits per hit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From Warhammer Twitch:
Bolter Drill: 1CP, all infantry-based bolt weapons; hits of 6 generate an extra hit (that don't generate more hits).
Not bad for a Bolter heavy army. My Centurions will be getting their Grav cannons cut off to put Heavy Bolters in their place. My Sternguard are going to be beasts, as are the Intercessors.
That is music to my ears! It's nice and strong for 1CP, should help us tackle hordes with a bit more ease.
Slinky wrote: Is that army-wide for that 1CP, or just one unit?
It sounds like it is army-wide. The question I have is what the duration is. If it is always on like some Strategems, holy hell! If it lasts until the start of your next turn, still pretty good. Overwatch would generate two hits per hit.
Tiny pic, but peering at it, it seems like it says it's used "before an Imperial Fists infantry unit fires in the shooting phase" - So only a single unit, not the whole army. Same with the Salamanders flamecraft strat.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.
Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!
You guys cant complain
IF got a bolt pistol.
They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.
Linebreaker for Vind and the Pred thing are Stratagems.
1cp for a White Scar unit to advance and charge.
Orbital Bomb is a Stratagem.
looks like Chapter Relics might cost CP.
Flamecraft looks to be add 1 to all wound rolls for flame weapons.
Machine empathy removes penalties for moving and shooting.
add 2 to psychic test?
Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.
I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)
1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field
4. Our rules really don't support melee well even when building for it. If you can build a Smash or his equivalent then go for it. The Axe of Medusa is not something to build around. It is something to throw on a good melee unit if you have the extra points. Melee is expensive for SM to
pull off without the right rules usually. And IH tactics favor tanks (at least the strategem). You would be much better off throwing points there rather than melee units. Relic Blades are good because they can be taken in bulk on multiple units. The Axe is a one of, and I would rather have
something that provides a buff to tanks and dreads within 6 inches, which again is something the IH had.
5. IH also had access to a 5+FNP via Fist of Medusa Strike Force. If Objective Secured and free vehicles wasn't such a huge bonus this would have been a no brainer for IH. I'd say the objective secured was the most useful part.
6. We also had access to extra Techmarines which was more fluffy than useful, but this one I don't have an issue with due to the increased number of HQ slots.
Other than the Unique characters thing (Ideally other than Stronos), nothing I mentioned isn't something we haven't had before at one point or another and that other SM armies do have in one shape or another. I am surprised that people really think the Axe of Medusa will be some huge game changer. Personally I don't. It isn't any different than a weapon you'd see on a named HQ who is going to most likely be getting special rules that also buff units or the whole army (and usually at a good price). Again, I just want the things the IH USED to have, but don't now. If I got most of the other stuff I would probably care less about the crummy CT.
Don't know how your post "Shut me down," but if you saying makes you feel better; then you can have it. And while I think IH do have one of the weakest CT, our Strategem, if it works like a CT; should help mitigate the CT. I think too many are overestimating how good it is (it IS good).
Must say I'm much calmer after going out target shooting using a blown up Guilliman head on the targets. So if I got a little out of line earlier I do apologize. It doesn't change my opinion of things, but I will try to post in a more respectful manner
1. Options don't matter if those options suck. Terminator Sergeants literally does nothing for us, and in fact actively makes the list worse. So it might as well not exist, and I'm glad it doesn't. It doesn't tempt newer players into making a bad decision.
2. The Iron Father doesn't really do anything unique enough to justify a unit entry. Use your models appropriately as Techmarines or souped up Chaplains. Or as Vaylund Cal, who I'm sure FW will errata to be Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.
3. You cannot say that. Blood Angels armies aren't made better with Sanguine Guard, way more than half their characters, and extra Dreads outside the Librarian one (which arguably needs to be available to all Chapters). Dark Angels aren't made better by any special units at all.
4. The rules support both melee and range. It depends how you decide to build for it. If you're building a melee Iron Hands force, the Axe is an excellent game changer. If you're building a range Iron Hands force, you still might take it as for a counter charge HQ in your backlines.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.
Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!
You guys cant complain
IF got a bolt pistol.
They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.
I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?
casvalremdeikun wrote: The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.
I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.
This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.
Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!
You guys cant complain
IF got a bolt pistol.
They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.
I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?
Nothing not to like at all. though was hoping for a relic boltgun so i could use those master crafted boltgun bits.
I'm hoping that we get a nice relic or warlord trait to make up for it. Plus side is that this would stack up with the venerable dread's 6 to ignore wounds as well! Didn't they also say that each chapter would get its own psychic powers as well? I would love a bit of technomancy from my librarians. Maybe 
)
