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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows?ref=hero_thanks Coming to Kickstarter in early August 2017! Darkholds is a co-operative board game of combat and adventure in which you and your friends will play the part of heroes and henchmen that battle against the hordes of undeath to gain the ultimate prize - the secret of life after death! Ax-Drune henchmen confront the hordes of the undead Set in the lands of darkness - the brutal, uncivilised world of dark ages Britain in the 7th century AD - Darkholds is a board game containing miniatures, tiles, counters and cards to enable 1-4 players to control legendary heroes and their henchmen as they explore the caverns, barrows and halls of the undead Wihts. Two happy fellows enjoying a game of Darkholds! The game can be played as a story campaign comprising ten levels of varying design and aspect in three areas, beginning in the caverns and natural gorges near the coast (area 1, levels 1-3), then exploring the catacombs and barrows of the undead (area 2, levels 4-6) and eventually fighting through the halls of the ancients (area 3, levels 7-9) to gain the secret of undeath (the quest's end, level 10); but each level can of course be played on its own. You can even choose to play each area - three levels - as a mini-campaign! Players need not worry about the experience of their heroes or henchmen if they play later levels, either, for the skills and abilities of the adventurers are tied to the levels themselves. If Darkholds is played as a campaign, players can purchase certain types of mundane equipment or hire henchmen in between levels - effectively meaning heroes have a retinue they can bring with them to the next level! The Wihts of old To succeed in their quest for eternal life players must overcome a horde of enemies trying to stop their heroes, gathering treasure, ancient artefacts and sorcerous weapons or armour to help them along the way. The Wihts, scampering grave spiders and huge, terrifying mound beetles, ancient Gāsta and shrieking Drēaguth all wish to deny the secrets of the Jutes to the outsiders, and they will do anything - including the destruction of their own halls and tombs - to stop them. Players must also understand that - whilst the game is co-operative - there will also be an element of selfishness to how each player plays the game, for each hero has his own secret quest and must succeed in it if he is to progress through Darkholds successfully... Darkholds cover artwork by Stefan Kopinski Darkholds players can choose to play any of the five heroes included in the game, all of whom are very different to each other. Depending on how many players there are, each player could control up to five heroes on their own! You could choose to play Penda the Bloody-Handed, a ferocious, skilful werwulf from Mierce; Nerys, an abbess of the Brythoniaid who abhors the blasphemous undead and can heal the adventurers; Carrowek of Carn Dhu, a heavily muscled fighter of immense strength from Kernow; Sáthach, a highly skilled Irish rogue that kills her enemies with twin swords or throwing daggers; and Gnith, a powerful sorcerer from the mountains of Alba. From left to right: Nerys, Penda the Bloody-Handed, Carrowek of Carn Dhu, Gnith and Sáthach There will also be a hero exclusive to backers of the Kickstarter project - Morag of Mann, an adaptable sell-sword able to fight her way through the tombs with axe, harpoon or spell! Backing the Darkholds project is the only way you will be able to purchase her. Morag of Mann, project exclusive hero! As well as the heroes, players will be able to hire - or possibly rescue! - henchmen from the lands of darkness. Carrowek will bring fellow fighters, Ax-Drunes, to fight for him. Penda will bring Gesithas, elite spearmen from his lands. Nerys brings black monks called Mynach Du to protect and fight with her fellow heroes. Gnith will bring crossbowmen known as Elbharud to defend him from the attentions of his enemies, and Sáthach will be fighting alongside Fiannagh, warriors of Danu from Ireland; and Morag may choose any henchman to adventure with her. Nerys and three different types of Henchmen As the project continues there will be hero and henchman expansion packs, so you can bring your favourite nobles from the lands of darkness - such as Daarkan of the Fomoraic, or Knútr of the Norse - to adventure with you! Throughout each level will be various bits of treasure, some artefacts or discarded weaons or armour that players can find and pick up, collectively known as equipment. Enemies, when killed, may even drop equipment! Each equipment marker found on a level enables a player to reveal an equipment card. This could be simple hacksilver or jewels - gold, in effect - to purchase equipment or hire henchmen with in between levels; an ancient artefact such as an amulet that heroes can use to increase their abilities, a torc to protect themselves or even an invocation to destroy their enemies with; a weapon such as a sorcerous axe that may be more powerful than their own, or can be used in addition to theirs such as a bow; or armour such as a helmet or a shield that could increase their protection and enable them to progress through a level without harm. Each equipment card also has a gold value, signifying its worth when sold, so even the most mundane item could prove useful when trading in between levels. Bear in mind there's a limit to how much a hero or a henchman can carry, however! The enemies of the heroes will appear very quickly in each level. At the end of each turn, enemies will generate from entry points if heroes or henchmen are nearby. Before that occurs, however, any enemies already on the level will perform an action - either to Move towards the closest heroes, Attack them if they are next to them or Shoot them from afar! There are many different enemies the heroes will have to contend with. The most numerous enemies will be the Wihts - either Wihtgāras, armed with spear and shield; Wihtaxas, armed with ax and lantern; or Wihtbogas, armed with a bow. They could also be joined by enemy heroes such as a Wiht Thain, who will be a powerful warrior in his own right but will also help his Wihts to perform better; or even a Wiglāca, a human Jute sorcerer who can raise the dead! Wihtgāras, Wihtaxas and Wihtbogas defend their barrows, helped by Ætulla, an enemy sorcerer Bigger enemies will appear less frequently (thankfully!), such as the shrieking Drēaguthas - wraiths full of hatred for the living - or the Gāsta, ancient kings of old who remember little of their former lives and are all the more spiteful because of it. Sáthach faces off against a tomb spider The last level of each area - and the quest's end level - will contain a powerful creature that the heroes must defeat to progress further; perhaps a tomb spider, a huge arachnid able to immobilise adventurers, or a powerful mound beetle able to crush the hardest of heroes in their jaws - and at the end, the mighty Culcca, a Gāst King who holds the secret to life after death. Darkhold Cards At the beginning of each enemy turn darkhold cards come into play. These cards are unique to each darkhold and represent enemy strategies, natural occurrences, random encounters and all manner of other things! They could change the behaviour of the enemies already on the level if enemy heroes are present, another entry point may appear, tunnel roofs may collapse on top of a hero, random monsters may pop up... who knows? You will, when you play the game! Enemy Actions Once a darkhold card is played, the enemies already upon the level must perform their actions. In general these will be very simple - either movement towards a hero or attacking/shooting them - and the game's artificial intelligence will enable the enemy player (chosen from amongst the players) to perform enemy actions very easily and without thought. Even so, the more powerful enemies can do various other nasty things, so it won't always be simple to defeat them! There will also be rules for players who wish to play the part of the enemy - i.e., you could play a Darkholds game with 1-3 players using heroes and 1 player using enemies, for example! Enemy Reinforcements After the enemies upon the level perform their actions, enemy reinforcements occur. Each entry point draws a reinforcement card, which - depending upon the area - reveals the type and amount of enemies that appear. This could be a myriad of different enemies - one Wihtgār, three Wihtaxas, a Wihtboga or two or even a Wiht Thain (plus bodyguard!) - or maybe a Drēaguth or a Gāst! Further Darkholds Info! We will unveil more about Darkholds next week. Stay tuned! Demo Video [youtube]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows?ref=hero_thanks[/youtube] NOTE: All miniatures shown are mierce resins spray primed to show what the minis in the box should look like. The are not production plastic which is scheduled to be done by the same factory that does CMONs boardgames so stuff like Massivce Darkness, Blood Rage and Zombicide Black Plague should be a good indication of what the final result should be like
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Post by: zedmeister
Excellent! Been waiting for this. They're aiming for PVC models if I recall correctly .
Will be all over this like a cheap rash!
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Post by: Ratius
Very nice looking, any news on whether it'll have scenery features ala Heroquest (chests, tables, doors etc?).
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Post by: zedmeister
Ratius wrote:Very nice looking, any news on whether it'll have scenery features ala Heroquest (chests, tables, doors etc?).
Not planned for, for the initial round of goals. If it does well, perhaps
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Post by: Gallahad
What is it with Mierce and the noodle axe hafts? I can't stand it. Does anybody like the noodle axes?
I am interested in the game. If the minis are going to be in PVC they better have a good value starter. Also, they will need to prove to me that they are thinking about/planning for PVC shrinkage if they want my money.
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed there - PVC isn't my favorite by a long shot, but I realize this is a 'boardgame' and will "NEED" to be preassmebled to avoid any boardgamer rage and/or blowback.
I do have a lot of these models in resin and metal already too...
I'd bet there would be a metal/resin 'upgrade' possibility here too, maybe?
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Post by: Ernster
The PVC looks good. Any idea on pledge price?
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Post by: SnotlingPimpWagon
Looks very cool! I hope this will help Mierce to become more popular and widespread
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Post by: Ernster
Check that, I see Orlando provided the price info and the fact they will have EB's.
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Post by: Etherealistic
I am literally on the verge of combusting from excitement.
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Post by: Alpharius
Did they already show PVC minis?!?
I don't think they did?
Just standard (resin and/or metal) minis spray painted Brian and grey?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Alpharius wrote:
Just standard (resin and/or metal) minis spray painted Brian and grey?
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Post by: Ernster
I assumed the Brown and Grey mini's were PVC. they look like they could be Ludo fact quality. They could have of course spray painted them the brown and grey.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
There's a quote in the first post of Rob from a KSer comment stating they're just their resins spray painted.
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Post by: Ernster
I have faith in Rob and Mierce. I bet the quality will be Ludofact. I did not read the KS post in regard to spray painted resin. if not one can always skip the KS.
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Post by: Mymearan
Ernster wrote: I have faith in Rob and Mierce. I bet the quality will be Ludofact. I did not read the KS post in regard to spray painted resin. if not one can always skip the KS.
There's no way you'll see PVC before the campaign ends, so backing will be on blind faith.
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Post by: Yodhrin
This actually sounds really intriguing, but I have a self-imposed rule these days that I don't go in on "boardgame plastic" KS unless there are samples of the final models to show. It's Mierce so I'm sure the final result will be at least decent, but I won't risk it unless the value proposition becomes ridiculous.
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Post by: methebest
I'll probably end up getting two, and using the second set of heros and henchmen to try get others into Darklands, with both sets expanding my jutes.
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Post by: Bottle
This looks amazing.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
The CAD sculpts for the Jutes can be adjusted by the factory to account for shrinkage, but Mierce is going to need to redo some aspects of the ones that werent sculpted digitally. Not just spears, but faces etc need to be made with the medium in mind.
They also need to make it clear that these are resins spray painted, otherwise people are going to be in for a nasty surprise. PVC has come a long way, but Mierce's resins/sculpts are about the best in the business and PVC simply cant match it.
I'd also like to know the manufacturer, as quality can vary dramatically.
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Post by: zedmeister
Rob has mentioned that there'll be a lot of new sculpts done for this.
One of the most exciting things is when he talked about possible future options: invading an icy Fomoraic realm in Ireland, the underworld of Par-Ys (Paris), Albainn warrens, Atalantes labarynths, Lugdumn underground compete with an entrance to hell and finally a Norse fortress with an entrance to Valhalla with this guardian:
Of course, that's years away and all depends on this Kickstarter. Though, I can imagine facing the vore above to be a tricky prospect
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Post by: skullking
Though I will always be a valiant supporter of Mierce's endeavors, I worry that they just don't have the capacity to field the shear amount of stuff that's going to be thrown at them for some thing like this.
I know they'll do there damnedest to get the best looking PVC minis out there, and I trust that the game will be sound. But most of their social (everything) goes directly through Rob, who already has a 1Million.5 things on his plate. They really need to hire a dedicated social media person who can field all the fan stuff, and keep everyone sated. Rob does a great job with the time he has, but if they're going to be getting thousands of folks in on this thing, he's going to be either stuck dealing with backers all day, or avoiding most of them, and risking nerd/hate/backlash.
To some of you who are calmer, and more well disciplined, this probably seems like a non issue, but it can be REALLY damaging if not dealt with correctly, and timely.
I want Mierce to be successful in all their endeavors, but theres more to the current environment of Board/tabletop games then just 'making good games' nowadays.
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Post by: Pacific
Ernster wrote: I have faith in Rob and Mierce. I bet the quality will be Ludofact. I did not read the KS post in regard to spray painted resin. if not one can always skip the KS.
I don't know what ludofact is, but definitely would be very surprised if the quality is not towards the top end of what is possible with a board game
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Post by: Alpharius
Ludofact is one of the better manufacturers of "PVC" miniatures.
They are widely considered one of the better, if not the best, PVC miniature manufacturers available, and if a campaign announces that they're using them, it usually lessens the concerns of many...
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Post by: Moltar
Definitely keeping an eye on this.
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Post by: Myrthe
Crap !!! Another sweet looking dungeon crawl to pick my pocket !! I am so weak !!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Potential launch date looks to be 8th August
@Paul - I'm hoping Tuesday the 8th, but it depends on when the video is done. It's been submitted and accepted, so the project is good to go, just waiting on that really.
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Post by: Pacific
Alpharius wrote:Ludofact is one of the better manufacturers of "PVC" miniatures.
They are widely considered one of the better, if not the best, PVC miniature manufacturers available, and if a campaign announces that they're using them, it usually lessens the concerns of many...
Thanks!
That seems like something definitely good to know!
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Post by: Llamahead
OK no A Song of Ice and Fire for me then.
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Post by: Orlanth
I am going to be all over this.
If a resin upgrade is offered, I will buy that also.
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Post by: Alpharius
A resin upgrade *seems* like a no-brainer, doesn't it?
I also hope one is offered, though I can also see why it wouldn't be, in the name of 'simplicity'...?
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Post by: Baragash
Jutes are one of the few factions I haven't invested in so simply offering the various bundles for them might be dangerous for me.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Undead, Giant Insects (oh and some people too), what's not to love....
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Rob dropped some card pics this afternnoon
Hero Card
Darkhold Card
Reinforcement Card
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
@Paul - it's dependent on the video; it's not yet done, and whilst I'm hoping it will be done for next Tuesday, I'm not entirely sure it will be.
6pm GMT whichever day.
Until 6pm, 5th of September.
Stretch goals will be both more stuff and expansions.
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Post by: overtyrant
Depending on price and content I'd love to snap this up just for the pvc undead. Much prefer single piece models for my gaming nowadays.
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Post by: devilution
I really hope the rules will be good and we get character progression and campaign based gameplay...but i seriously doubt it. I wish MM would hire a professional designer. The minis deserve that :-)
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
Yeah, my worry is regarding the rules, too. I love the idea of a simple, elegantly designed, yet tactically deep dungeon bash using good quality PVC versions of Mierce's minis. But I'm not convinced that this will be that, or indeed that we will ever see such a thing. Almost every dungeon bash I've seen has been way too complicated.
Space Hulk should always be the model to aim for, here. Plays in an hour, but with genuine tactical depth and at least some strategic depth.
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Post by: Azazelx
I guess you'll be able to see if they release the WIP rules for people to read through, pick through and playtest. It seems that designers and producers confident in their games are more likely to do so, while some notable cluster feths have done quite the opposite - treating their rules as some super-sekret special sauce that turns out to about as good as spoiled milk once released.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
Yeah, good point. This is one time when I would be keen to look at the rules. With an Eric Lang design, I just buy. With good reviews from trusted boardgame reviewers plus good minis, I just buy. With Mierce... I've downloaded the quickstart rules for Darklands and had no inclination to either play those, or get the main rules.
And agreed -- any sensible company will happily release at least the basic rules for free, because that gets more people playing. It's how I started with Kings of War, and that got Mantic two rulebook sales as I got one for my daughter too.
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Post by: Alpharius
Mierce's in-house rules do tend towards 'complicated', so hopefully the boardgame is more of a boardgame, and could help serve as a gateway to the 'game proper'.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Rob said they'd post beta rules at some point.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Not going to launch tomorrow
Mierce Miniatures 16-time creator about 4 hours ago
Morning all...
@Paul - no, it'll be next week I'm afraid. The video's being worked on; as soon as it's done I can launch, but I've no idea when that will be. Could be before the weekend, but we'll see what happens.
fingers crossed things get sorted speedily, Robs got an immobile honeymoon date in September and I want this to have a decent amount of time to gather backers (who aren't the normal miercenaries)
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Post by: zedmeister
Latest launch date:
Right. Tuesday 15th of August is when Darkholds will launch, 6pm BST
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Post by: MattW
I'm really interested in this- but I've never got anything from Mierce before.
I gather that we won't see production minis before the campaign?
Will the undead minions have multiple poses? Or will we be looking at a few identical spear-skellies and the big bugs?
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Post by: grefven
MattW wrote:I'm really interested in this- but I've never got anything from Mierce before.
I gather that we won't see production minis before the campaign?
Will the undead minions have multiple poses? Or will we be looking at a few identical spear-skellies and the big bugs?
I have no idea, but traditionally, in Mierce's previous Kickstarters, the miniatures are very similarto the concept art that is being used. So one can assume that if the concept arts will feature different poses, then so will the miniatures.
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Post by: Alpharius
Right - Mierce miniatures usually very closely match the concept art - and in this case, there will most likely be a fair few that are PVC copies of existing resins.
Now...the Great Unknown here is just how Mierce's usual top notch stuff will make the transition into PVC Boardgame land.
That is the big question, and it probably will not be able to be definitively answered before the campaign ends.
The Kickstarter is to fund the production, so...unless there are advance samples (which would be great!), we'll be pledging on faith here!
I'd feel a lot better if they went the WoK route and hard hard plastic weapons tooled up to go along with the PVC miniatures - nothing worse that soft details and droopy weapons!
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Post by: MattW
I second that hope for the hard plastic weapons- droopy spears would be pretty frustrating.
I'm not a guaranteed backer, but this might be my first KS...
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Post by: tre manor
PVC has come a LOOOOOONG way in the past few years. I would imagine that there might be some slight degradation of detail but probably not enough to be off putting. I personally wish Mierce all the best of luck withthis. I hope they mmake a mint!
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Post by: bananaman
Hi guys,
Tim from Mierce here. Just wanted to comment on a few points raised.
PVC - yes. We'll be using Dust Studios moulding and manufacturing prowess. They made the minis for The Others 7 Sins, WoK (insert CMoN game with nice minis here) - the quality is excellent and we'll be adding hard plastic weapons for the spears and bows etc. The quality of The Others and Blood Rage (with hard plastic on spears etc) is what we will deliver.
Miniatures - the vast majority of the Jutes (undead) have been sculpted digitally already. We'll be revisiting the files and making alterations - increasing the size of the sculpts to allow for PVC shrinkage and will also be bulking up ankle, wrists, shafts (ahem) etc. Some slight pose changes will be made to make for better casts also.
Miniatures that aren't digital and already exist as traditional (by which I mean epoxy or polymer clay sculpts) - some of them such as Sathach and Nerys (already quite small) will be re-sculpted in a digital format (in fact they already have been!) they have been sculpted with PVC casting in mind (deeper details) and will also be printed larger than usual to account for shrinkage.
There are some brand new sculpts new to Darkholds - all are sculpted digitally and with PVC in mind. We have been in regular contact with Dust with regards to PVC shrinkage rates, moulding, parts etc.
We'll be showing off new and groovy stuff during the KS, of course.
Some miniatures that already exist in traditional format will be retained. These are Penda, Carrowek and Gnith (as well as the odd henchman and bad guy) in all cases these are miniatures that are quite large to begin with and have well defined details. (Gnith was actually sculpted with Darkholds in mind which is why he's a little large)
The scale will be 32mm (after PVC shrinkage) which is a little larger than the average Darklands miniature, though the scale of Darklands will gradually increase going forwards to 32mm also (some already are) . It allows for bolder details, thicker (more durable) weapons and is easier for the naked eye to read.
In terms of the game - it is indeed a simple, tactical game. My favourite game growing up was Space Hulk and it's still a game I play regularly now. I suppose the best way to describe Darkholds is a bit of Space Hulk, Zombicide and WH Quest. Not quite akin to any one in particular but certainly has some inspiration here and there. There is character progression but this is handled via game level rather than XP. We have a golden rule of 'No pens' and any book keeping will be done via cards (treasure, items) and the player dashboard.
I think people will love the 'agendas' and I feel I must point out that although this is a player vs game co-op there is no rule that stops players from attacking one another....... There is also an option to make the game player vs player is someone would prefer to play as the undead.
There will be a gameplay example video shown off from the start of the KS.
There will 68 minis in the box (and a shedload of cards, board tiles etc) - a fair few of them rather large miniatures too! There will also be a KS exclusive mini free to all backers of the game right from the get go. There won't be a resin upgrade (where PVC is subbed out for resin casts) I'm afraid as the boxes will be packed in China. - Resins can, of course, be purchased on our website as normal (and if there's demand we could add a bundle deal of the resins on the site) So you'll be able to buy the new stuff in resin, but there will be no subbing out. It will be an extra cost purchased via the website.
The pledge level is £90 (ROUGHLY $117 USD) - there will be some very limited early birds set at £85 ($110) - shipping will be calculated at the time of shipping. We will have European and North American shipping hubs.
We've stretch goals planned out as long as your arm that we will unveil as we go along. How far we go and how many extras and freebies we unleash is all down to you guys. You won't feel short changed. There are freebies galore up for grabs if we get far enough. There will also be optional purchases and also a chance to buy extra Jutes as units should you plan to use extra for your wargames or other gaming uses.
I hope that covers most things. I don't pop by too often as I'm understandably very busy (always, especially right now) - the KS launches Tuesday the 15th August at 6pm (UK) which is 1pm (EST) and we'll have a regular online presence there during the KS to answer any questions you feel aren't covered by the KS and FAQs themselves.
See you next Tuesday!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Thanks for chipping in,
Very good to hear we'll be getting the ABS weapons as that's going to help a fair bit with spear/polearm/axe shafts
looking forward to it
see you then!
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Post by: judgedoug
Man, what a great post, Tim. You pretty much addressed my concerns - I'm 100% happy with the type of PVC you'll be using.
Looking forward to game play videos, demos, beta rules, etc, but I'll definitely be backing regardless.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, that pretty much (mostly) dispels my concerns!
Thanks for showing up here on Dakka Dakka Tim.
(Now get back to casting up my stuff!!! )
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Post by: Slinky
Thanks, Tim!
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Post by: zedmeister
Cheers Tim.
In terms of the game - it is indeed a simple, tactical game. My favourite game growing up was Space Hulk and it's still a game I play regularly now. I suppose the best way to describe Darkholds is a bit of Space Hulk, Zombicide and WH Quest. Not quite akin to any one in particular but certainly has some inspiration here and there. There is character progression but this is handled via game level rather than XP. We have a golden rule of 'No pens' and any book keeping will be done via cards (treasure, items) and the player dashboard.
I think people will love the 'agendas' and I feel I must point out that although this is a player vs game co-op there is no rule that stops players from attacking one another....... There is also an option to make the game player vs player is someone would prefer to play as the undead.
Most excellent. Warhammer Quest is a game I play regularly and the fact that you've got inspiration from it makes me very happy. Also, Agenda's sound like the old Warhammer Quest "Dark Secret" 8 card deck. I'm raring to go...
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Post by: Alpharius
All this is great news - WoK/Blood Rage/New CMON Quality PVC level miniatures with hard plastic weapons is almost all I needed to hear!
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Post by: zedmeister
bananaman wrote:The scale will be 32mm (after PVC shrinkage) which is a little larger than the average Darklands miniature, though the scale of Darklands will gradually increase going forwards to 32mm also (some already are) . It allows for bolder details, thicker (more durable) weapons and is easier for the naked eye to read.
This is interesting - when did you start the switch over? I noticed my Oplites are a fraction taller than some of my older pieces.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
Thanks Tim! That addresses pretty much all my concerns too.
Could you let us know how long the game will typically take to play, too?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Just save me a early bird guys!
Eagerly looking forward to it!
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Post by: Alpharius
There's only a £5 difference - we'll be OK if we don't get it.
I do, however, understand the psychological benefit to getting one, and *usually* there are just enough Early Birds to 'fund' the project (The CMON Approach!) and I'll also admit that, as a long time supporter of Mierce's Darklands Campaigns, I'll still be (irrationally) miffed if I don't snag one too!
I do hope they off 'resin add-on' deals to get all the things in resin, as an option.
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Post by: skullking
Thanks for the details Tim! This puts it much more in perspective.
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Post by: Aeneades
Alpharius wrote:There's only a £5 difference - we'll be OK if we don't get it.
I do, however, understand the psychological benefit to getting one, and *usually* there are just enough Early Birds to 'fund' the project (The CMON Approach!) and I'll also admit that, as a long time supporter of Mierce's Darklands Campaigns, I'll still be (irrationally) miffed if I don't snag one too!
I do hope they off 'resin add-on' deals to get all the things in resin, as an option.
They confirmed earlier that you couldn't sub the plastic for the resin and that resins could be purchased from the webstore so sounds like no resin addon.
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Post by: Alpharius
Right, except I was talking about add-ons, referencing this:
bananaman wrote:Hi guys,
Tim from Mierce here. Just wanted to comment on a few points raised.
There will 68 minis in the box (and a shedload of cards, board tiles etc) - a fair few of them rather large miniatures too! There will also be a KS exclusive mini free to all backers of the game right from the get go. There won't be a resin upgrade (where PVC is subbed out for resin casts) I'm afraid as the boxes will be packed in China. - Resins can, of course, be purchased on our website as normal (and if there's demand we could add a bundle deal of the resins on the site) So you'll be able to buy the new stuff in resin, but there will be no subbing out. It will be an extra cost purchased via the website.
[u]
...which looks like it might be possible, if there's enough demand for it.
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Post by: yxalitis
No Australia hub?
Darn, that'll push the all-in price up another $40!
That's probable gonna rule me (And a lot of southern hemisphere dwellers) out of contention.
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Post by: Aeneades
Alpharius wrote:Right, except I was talking about add-ons, referencing this:
bananaman wrote:Hi guys,
Tim from Mierce here. Just wanted to comment on a few points raised.
There will 68 minis in the box (and a shedload of cards, board tiles etc) - a fair few of them rather large miniatures too! There will also be a KS exclusive mini free to all backers of the game right from the get go. There won't be a resin upgrade (where PVC is subbed out for resin casts) I'm afraid as the boxes will be packed in China. - Resins can, of course, be purchased on our website as normal (and if there's demand we could add a bundle deal of the resins on the site) So you'll be able to buy the new stuff in resin, but there will be no subbing out. It will be an extra cost purchased via the website.
[u]
...which looks like it might be possible, if there's enough demand for it.
Sorry, managed to miss that end part somehow.
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Post by: MattW
yxalitis wrote:No Australia hub?
Darn, that'll push the all-in price up another $40!
That's probable gonna rule me (And a lot of southern hemisphere dwellers) out of contention.
Yeah, that took the wind out of my sails a bit. :(
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Post by: RiTides
bananaman wrote:Hi guys,
Tim from Mierce here. Just wanted to comment on a few points raised.
PVC - yes. We'll be using Dust Studios moulding and manufacturing prowess. They made the minis for The Others 7 Sins, WoK (insert CMoN game with nice minis here) - the quality is excellent and we'll be adding hard plastic weapons for the spears and bows etc. The quality of The Others and Blood Rage (with hard plastic on spears etc) is what we will deliver.
Miniatures - the vast majority of the Jutes (undead) have been sculpted digitally already. We'll be revisiting the files and making alterations - increasing the size of the sculpts to allow for PVC shrinkage and will also be bulking up ankle, wrists, shafts (ahem) etc. Some slight pose changes will be made to make for better casts also.
Miniatures that aren't digital and already exist as traditional (by which I mean epoxy or polymer clay sculpts) - some of them such as Sathach and Nerys (already quite small) will be re-sculpted in a digital format (in fact they already have been!) they have been sculpted with PVC casting in mind (deeper details) and will also be printed larger than usual to account for shrinkage.
There are some brand new sculpts new to Darkholds - all are sculpted digitally and with PVC in mind. We have been in regular contact with Dust with regards to PVC shrinkage rates, moulding, parts etc.
We'll be showing off new and groovy stuff during the KS, of course.
Some miniatures that already exist in traditional format will be retained. These are Penda, Carrowek and Gnith (as well as the odd henchman and bad guy) in all cases these are miniatures that are quite large to begin with and have well defined details. (Gnith was actually sculpted with Darkholds in mind which is why he's a little large)
The scale will be 32mm (after PVC shrinkage) which is a little larger than the average Darklands miniature, though the scale of Darklands will gradually increase going forwards to 32mm also (some already are) . It allows for bolder details, thicker (more durable) weapons and is easier for the naked eye to read.
In terms of the game - it is indeed a simple, tactical game. My favourite game growing up was Space Hulk and it's still a game I play regularly now. I suppose the best way to describe Darkholds is a bit of Space Hulk, Zombicide and WH Quest. Not quite akin to any one in particular but certainly has some inspiration here and there. There is character progression but this is handled via game level rather than XP. We have a golden rule of 'No pens' and any book keeping will be done via cards (treasure, items) and the player dashboard.
I think people will love the 'agendas' and I feel I must point out that although this is a player vs game co- op there is no rule that stops players from attacking one another....... There is also an option to make the game player vs player is someone would prefer to play as the undead.
There will be a gameplay example video shown off from the start of the KS.
There will 68 minis in the box (and a shedload of cards, board tiles etc) - a fair few of them rather large miniatures too! There will also be a KS exclusive mini free to all backers of the game right from the get go. There won't be a resin upgrade (where PVC is subbed out for resin casts) I'm afraid as the boxes will be packed in China. - Resins can, of course, be purchased on our website as normal (and if there's demand we could add a bundle deal of the resins on the site) So you'll be able to buy the new stuff in resin, but there will be no subbing out. It will be an extra cost purchased via the website.
The pledge level is £90 (ROUGHLY $117 USD) - there will be some very limited early birds set at £85 ($110) - shipping will be calculated at the time of shipping. We will have European and North American shipping hubs.
We've stretch goals planned out as long as your arm that we will unveil as we go along. How far we go and how many extras and freebies we unleash is all down to you guys. You won't feel short changed. There are freebies galore up for grabs if we get far enough. There will also be optional purchases and also a chance to buy extra Jutes as units should you plan to use extra for your wargames or other gaming uses.
I hope that covers most things. I don't pop by too often as I'm understandably very busy (always, especially right now) - the KS launches Tuesday the 15th August at 6pm ( UK) which is 1pm (EST) and we'll have a regular online presence there during the KS to answer any questions you feel aren't covered by the KS and FAQs themselves.
See you next Tuesday!
Wow, thank you for posting all that great info! I had been leaning towards not backing just with how tight things are at the moment - but this has convinced me
Looking forward to it!
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Post by: Zethnar
bananaman wrote:
There is character progression but this is handled via game level rather than XP. We have a golden rule of 'No pens' and any book keeping will be done via cards (treasure, items) and the player dashboard.
Eh, I'd prefer something a little deeper. To be honest if I wanted a game with a shallow character progression system I could get either Sword & Sorcery or Massive Darkness right now rather than having to wait a year plus for it.
Are the dungeon layouts randomized or does it follow a layout presented in a quest book?
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Post by: smurfORnot
This one really interests me, since I love co-op&good minis. On the other hand, it will all depend about the gameplay, if game is easy and no brainer with obvious choiches, straight forward, there will be little point for me to pick it up :(
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Post by: bananaman
Just popped on for a quick snippet ahead of the launch of the KS on Tue.
The pledge for the boxed game Darkholds: Ancient Barrows on Kickstarter will be £90/$117 USD. If you were to purchase just the minis (so no tiles, cards, dice, book etc) from the Mierce website right now, choosing the cheapest possible option (metal where available, in units where possible etc) then the RRP just for the minis alone would be £478/$620 (all resin would be even more, so this is why a 'resin upgrade' might not be too desirable ;0) )
The boxed game basically includes a Jute army! The game itself is awesome and to top it off you get an undead army to use in any other boardgame you feel they'd fit or games of Darklands or any other fantasy wargame!
We'll let you know the actual contents later, but that should be a juicy tidbit for now!
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Post by: zedmeister
Excellent. I've got a lot of Skellybobs already and more will just mean that I'll end up fielding hordes of Wihtgar...
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Post by: Alpharius
Same here - which is why I'm somewhat (not) patiently waiting for some living Jutes already!!!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
This looks to be on target for tomorrow
fingers crossed
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Post by: Alpharius
I've got the day off tomorrow - need to set an alarm for this...
So...what time again tomorrow?
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Post by: bananaman
2 hours until launch at 18:00 GMT 13:00 EST 10:00 PZT
There will be 500 Early Bird pledges for £80/$103 so get there early!
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's up early. Got excited
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows/description
Get them early birds!
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Post by: Pacific
Brilliant stuff
Got me an early (late afternoon?! ) bird!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Tweet Tweet
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Post by: RiTides
Got one! Thanks for the heads up
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Post by: judgedoug
Pledged!
I think it'll suffer a little because there's no "piles of free stuff" stretch goals, and it has an actual realistic goal, versus an artificially low goal.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Set in the lands of darkness - the brutal, uncivilised world of dark ages Britain in the 7th century AD - Darkholds: Ancient Barrows is a board game containing miniatures, tiles, counters and cards to enable 1-4 players to control legendary heroes and their henchmen as they explore the caverns, barrows and halls of the undead Wihts.
The game can be played as a story campaign comprising ten levels of varying design and aspect in three areas, beginning in the caverns and natural gorges near the coast (area 1, levels 1-3), then exploring the catacombs and barrows of the undead (area 2, levels 4-6) and eventually fighting through the halls of the ancients (area 3, levels 7-9) to gain the secret of undeath (the quest's end, level 10); but each level can of course be played on its own. You can even choose to play each area - three levels - as a mini-campaign!
Players need not worry about the experience of their heroes or henchmen if they play later levels, either, for the skills and abilities of the adventurers are tied to the levels themselves.
If Darkholds: Ancient Barrows is played as a campaign, players can purchase certain types of mundane equipment or hire henchmen in between levels - effectively meaning heroes have a retinue they can bring with them to the next level!
To succeed in their quest for eternal life players must overcome a horde of enemies trying to stop their heroes, gathering treasure, ancient artefacts and sorcerous weapons or armour to help them along the way. The Wihts, scampering grave spiders and huge, terrifying mound beetles, ancient Gāsta and shrieking Drēaguth all wish to deny the secrets of the Jutes to the outsiders, and they will do anything - including the destruction of their own halls and tombs - to stop them.
Players must also understand that - whilst the game is co-operative - there will also be an element of selfishness to how each player plays the game, for each hero must draw a quest card at the beginning of each level.
[youtube]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows?ref=hero_thanks[/youtube]
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Post by: RiTides
Ah, I didn't see the goal - it totally makes sense, but I wonder if they should make another early bird tier after this one?
I've noticed that having enough early bird slots to approximately reach the base goal has been a good formula for a lot of campaigns. So, something to think about it as the pledges come in
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Post by: bananaman
There will be another set of early birds but at a slightly higher price.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
Pledged too. Oof, that's a high starting goal, but realistic I think in term of what is needed to fund. Hope they make it. There's this bizarre mentality on KS where people don't want to pledge before it meets its goal.
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Post by: bananaman
The goal is realistic - there's little point in funding if the true costs are lower than the pledged amount.
There will be freebies aplenty though - just need to fund first. We're just popping the first goal up now.
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Post by: Pacific
Yes it doesn't make much sense does it! Hopefully the early bird goals goals will go some way towards getting to that total.
I have to say, I love the art direction of this game. The grisly, dark-age and Slaine-esque setting is a nice alternative to the cheery cartoonism of Zombicide and Massive Darkenss (as much as I love those games!)
Was interested to find out as well that Mierce isn't pronounced as I thought it was pronounced!
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Post by: bananaman
Heh I had to record a short clip of me pronouncing some various words so the narrator could pronounce everything correctly himself!
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Post by: overtyrant
Only had a quick flick through, I'll have a proper look later when the opp arrives, but I did not notice any SG and the tiles look a bit cartooney and something looks off about the cards in general, can't quite put my finger on it. Minis look lovely though they are the resin ones and not the plastic ones right? Was that mentioned clearly on the KS page. I'll get a proper look later.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Yes the minis show are the resins, but the same factory that handles CMONs boardgames is scheduled to do the plastics so they should be comparable to that
(which is pretty good unless you're after a single display piece or painting competition entry)
Stretch goals are yet to be revealed
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I wish I could pledge a small amount for just the heroes. Otherwise, I'll have to wait for retail or trade for what I want.
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Post by: Azreal13
In for £1 for now, can't be confident I can back for a full amount, and sitting on an early bird I know I may have to ultimately drop feels like a bit of a douche move.
My pile of new resin, DZC starter and incoming package of hobby materials are all glaring at me accusingly, especially as I've got a really strong Jute itch that this would scratch.
Hopefully this follows other Mierce KS and has a healthily flexible pledge manager in the post-project phase if I can't swing it!
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Post by: Alpharius
£150K is a big, big goal, but if reached, should mean they can actually make this thing...
Update #1!
£165,000 - Wihtgār
Welcome to this, the first update for Darkholds: Ancient Barrows - and it's a stretch goal!
Due to popular request, we have added the very first stretch goal for this project, set at £165,000 to unlock - and it's the Wihtgār!
Once we reach £165,000, a new Wihtgār warrior sculpt (whose name is Oswine) will be introduced to the game. Half of the 12x Wihtgār warriors included in the box will become Oswine, with the other six remaining the original Wihtgār warrior, Cynemund.
4x Free Wihtgār!
As well as that, backers of the Darkholds: Ancient Barrows reward (including any early bird versions) will receive an extra 4x Wihtgār warriors (two of both different warriors) - for free!
OPTIONAL BUY - The Dead of Black Barrow
With the addition of the above you'll also be able to purchase The Dead of Black Barrow for £20 ($26) as an optional buy.
This box-set will include 2x Wihtgār Champions and 18x Wihtgār warriors (nine of both different warriors), giving you a total of 20x Wihtgār to dominate the heroes and henchmen - or use in the Darklands tabletop wargame, of course!
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
overtyrant wrote:Only had a quick flick through, I'll have a proper look later when the opp arrives, but I did not notice any SG and the tiles look a bit cartooney and something looks off about the cards in general, can't quite put my finger on it. Minis look lovely though they are the resin ones and not the plastic ones right? Was that mentioned clearly on the KS page. I'll get a proper look later.
They confirmed the tiles are WIPs. I'd anticipate them being more in the Darklands gritty aesthetic when completed.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So the only optional buy so far is the skeleton box? Hopefully they'll give us something else to pledge money for.
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Post by: MLaw
Man, this was under the radar for me. Got excited but then saw it was yet another fantasy guys vs undead board game. If they had done just about any other army as the bad guy I probably would've been all over this.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
No no no, you don't get it. These skeletons are different and and interesting because they have
Zzzzzzz--wha? snort. Must have fallen asleep for a moment. What was I looking at again?
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Post by: Pacific
I definitely think this has an aesthetic of its own, as does Darkholds generally.
It's possible that this isn't your kind of thing, but then that's fine! It's not going to be everything for all people, and the games that try that usually fall in-between two stools.
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Post by: RiTides
The Mierce skeletons are the best on the market, imo - they're why I'm pledging! Although I did just notice it's only one sculpt per unit, which is a major drawback... I'm considering putting these funds directly to Mierce for resin ones, to have more variety.
Here's the KS link from last page:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows/description
Early birds just sold out but there's a second tier for only a few pounds more!
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Post by: skullking
MLaw wrote:Man, this was under the radar for me. Got excited but then saw it was yet another fantasy guys vs undead board game. If they had done just about any other army as the bad guy I probably would've been all over this.
And yet, unlike all those other ones, not a zombie in the box...
At least Ghosts, wraiths, Giant spiders, and Beetles are different then, Zombies, fast zombies, fat zombies (that uxplurd!), Giant Zombie monster, repeat.
They have said that in future expansions to the game, there will be goatmen on the Fomoraic Ice sheets, the weird rat people and mutants of the Ysian dungeons, and Vikings n' Trolls. They have a lot of different stuff they can play with, but yeah, in the end, it is heroes vs. Undead, as that has been a proven game seller for many companies.
I'm with you, I loved that Massive darkness had not one zombie in the box, but I think if Darkholds is successful, they'll move away from the undead realms very quickly. Then we can have undead heroes as players!
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Post by: Alpharius
skullking wrote:
At least Ghosts, wraiths, Giant spiders, and Beetles are different then, Zombies, fast zombies, fat zombies (that uxplurd!), Giant Zombie monster, repeat.
Exactly!
Not sure how people are missing *that*!
I'm still skeptical - but cautiously optimistic - that the PVC will come close to the usual Mierce high standards for sculpt and casting quality.
Jutes were already one of the more popular kindreds for Darklands, and that will probably only increase if this Campaign is successful.
Now, where's the OP, to keep the title and first post updated?!?
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
Eh they seem to be doing something right with their undead, because the Jutes are always good sellers and bring in backers. Plus they do offer a different look as ancient dead. GW's undead like hot garbage from the 90's and Mantic's have a rather distinct Army of Darkness vibe.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
plus no censorship of the images needed
(unlike if they picked Ys with darling Torku and Druc )
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Post by: Alpharius
Ah, there's the OP!
(Still no updated title or 1st post though... )
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
both were updated when it went live, title, link, box contents and video
maybe you're seeing an old cached page?
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Post by: Manchu
Conditionally backed ... Mierce in plastic is very, very interesting ...
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Post by: Alpharius
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:both were updated when it went live, title, link, box contents and video
maybe you're seeing an old cached page?
Wha...?!?
I'm not seeing an updated title, referencing the first update has been posted, nor is that info in the OP!!!
Manchu wrote:Conditionally backed ... Mierce in plastic is very, very interesting ...
This is - allegedly - going to be matching CMON's best PVC to date - Blood Rage and such.
Blood Rage minis were very nice.
Combine that with the promise of 'hard plastic' weapons here, and sculpts made with PVC shrinkage in mind, and we could be in for a real treat, both in terms of quality AND price.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Alpharius wrote:OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:both were updated when it went live, title, link, box contents and video
maybe you're seeing an old cached page?
Wha...?!?
I'm not seeing an updated title, referencing the first update has been posted, nor is that info in the OP!!!
I'm saving that for tomorrow to have a legitimate excuse to give it a morning bump (Mwah Ha Ha Ha)
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Post by: Alpharius
Fair enough!
It will be interesting to see how this one moves after the Day One Rush is over.
Hopefully...nice and quickly!
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Post by: Azreal13
A significant number of backers over anything I've seen for a Darklands project for some time already, if nothing else there'll hopefully be a network effect from all those people over the coming days.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, yes, the whole 'board game' vs. 'war game' (with complex rules, fiddly resin (!!!) mutlipart models that need to be - assembled!) thing.
Plus the 'buy in' here is a lot less than a 'typical' Mierce KS, especially given the amount of miniatures we'll get!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Pacific wrote:I definitely think this has an aesthetic of its own, as does Darkholds generally.
It's possible that this isn't your kind of thing, but then that's fine! It's not going to be everything for all people, and the games that try that usually fall in-between two stools.
Shrug. I'm really looking for something to buy from this campaign.
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Post by: Azreal13
Have you considered the board game it's explicitly set up to finance?
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Post by: skullking
So I know most of the example miniatures are just painted resin models, but will they be resculpting all the items in the box as 3D computer models? Seems like a great time to bang out two more mound beetles to get that Unit finally finished for Darklands. Plus new dreaguth and Gast figures would be pretty awesome for most people who already own the original miniatures.
I hope there's an extra cardset you can buy which has other Jute models like the centipede, bat thing, human warriors, & Gast king. Would give people who want to expand the game, or who already have the figures,even more to enjoy.
Last Boss Tower Banbrecca!
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Post by: DrNo172000
skullking wrote:So I know most of the example miniatures are just painted resin models, but will they be resculpting all the items in the box as 3D computer models? Seems like a great time to bang out two more mound beetles to get that Unit finally finished for Darklands. Plus new dreaguth and Gast figures would be pretty awesome for most people who already own the original miniatures.
I hope there's an extra cardset you can buy which has other Jute models like the centipede, bat thing, human warriors, & Gast king. Would give people who want to expand the game, or who already have the figures,even more to enjoy.
Last Boss Tower Banbrecca!
I believe they said that any models that were already sculpted via 3D sculpting software would use the work previously done. Anyone minis that don't will get sculpted as 3D computer models but be based on the existing sculpts. Don't quote me on that though.
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Post by: Gallahad
I got an early bird, but this is looking less and less appealing. Mierce doesn't seem willing to put any skin in the game. With the first stretch goal on the distant horizon, my bet is that we won't get much more for our money than what they are already showing. Mierce sells expensive resins. Doesn't mean they have to sell expensive PVC. I am unwilling to pay a premium for PVC years in advance just because of some brand attached to it. Yes, this is a good price for Mierce miniatures, but these are not Mierce resins, nor is it a good price for PVC, especially with so many repeat sculpts.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Azreal13 wrote:Have you considered the board game it's explicitly set up to finance?
You mean me? Yeah, I considered paying about $100 for the dozen to score of models I actually want from the campaign. Then I soundly rejected that proposal and mock-slapped my face for even mentioning it.
That kind of thinking leads to GW levels of spending.
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Post by: RiTides
The repeat sculpts are my issue... I didn't have time to look closely when it first launched, but each unit of 10 skeletons has one pose! That's not really comparable to the resin units, imo, and I'd rather pay more for the variety the resins offer, personally.
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Post by: Manchu
RiTides makes a strong point. This is probably not a good way to build a collection of Mierce miniatures for miniatures wargaming. But is a dungeon crawler board game with extremely nice sculpts worthwhile? We'll see. These games are already successfully with lower quality miniatures, at a (somewhat) lower price point.
Of course, with such a high funding goal, stretch goals are perforce on the distant horizon. Mierce is almost certainly being realistic about its costs here. I think we are looking at an accirate picture, with little to no invisible big money investment behind the scenes.
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Post by: Gallahad
Manchu wrote:RiTides makes a strong point. This is probably not a good way to build a collection of Mierce miniatures for miniatures wargaming. But is a dungeon crawler board game with extremely nice sculpts worthwhile? We'll see. These games are already successfully with lower quality miniatures, at a (somewhat) lower price point.
Of course, with such a high funding goal, stretch goals are perforce on the distant horizon. Mierce is almost certainly being realistic about its costs here. I think we are looking at an accirate picture, with little to no invisible big money investment behind the scenes.
Another interpretation of the realistic funding goal and stretch goal is this: Mierce isn't willing to put any of their own money into this.
The first stretch goal is roughly $20,000 USD from the funding target and it isn't even a freebie, they are just replacing some of the miniatures in the box with an alternate sculpt.
There are 68 miniatures in the box, but I count only 22 unique miniatures, which is a pretty weak offering in PVC for this price point. We are also talking about miniatures that are already sculpted. I'll grant they will need to make some modifications to the existing digital sculpts, but you cannot convince me that modifications are as expensive as sculpting them from the ground up.
I think that this is a pretty poor value proposition and a weak show from Mierce who are basically asking the backers to pay premium prices 1.5 years in advance for repeat sculpts in an inferior material. Alternatively, in a few weeks I can pick up Massive Darkness shipped for the same price with the same quality material with (it looks like) more unique sculpts and more big monsters...same genre of game, known miniature quality, in my hands in a few weeks...
Mierce is going to have to do better if they want my money.
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Post by: 455_PWR
Wow, they have to raise almost 100 euros more just to get to the first stretch goal, which is just an alternate sculpt that's already made? This kickstarter looks like it might die a slow death, like many other simiarly framed kickstarters.
I like meirce but this is probably only worth its price in resin. As others have said regarding zombicide, most cmon kickstarters of this type (black plague, green horde, massive darkness) contained between 150 and 200 models for $100-$120. Oh, that also included multiple enemy types, with multiple sculpts of each enemy, heroes, large monsters/dragons, etc. Not to mention quality sculpts too.
They did so by throwing freebies out like mad with quick and easy stretch goals.
This looks like similar quality with far less bang for the buck. I guess we will see where this one goes...
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Mierce are not a company that's making millions a year (CMON made almost $22 million) so they basically can't afford to put money into the project to produce an artificially low funding target (beyond the money time an effort they've put in to develop it which for a small company isn't going to be insignificant) Every sculpt added is an additional tool needed for the production run (and means the tools you have already are used less thus making each mini you get from them more expensive), as described the box is going to need 24 sculpts, at least 2 of which are going need to be multipart so that's only £6250 each not including other costs which is pretty good (and probably only achievable since they've now got their own in house 3d sculptor in Bob Plociennik so at least part of the process isn't subcontracted) That's not to say I wouldn't love more variety in the whit (skeletons), but I think we've got to be realistic about it and hope the project does well enough to allow them to add it. I'd far prefer less variety and a delivered product than overpromising in the hope of a funding explosion ending up with either an 'oops we can't do it with this cash' or worse an attempt to fulfil which fails Welcome to this, the first update for Darkholds: Ancient Barrows - and it's a stretch goal! Due to popular request, we have added the very first stretch goal for this project, set at £165,000 to unlock - and it's the Wihtgār! Once we reach £165,000, a new Wihtgār warrior sculpt (whose name is Oswine) will be introduced to the game. Half of the 12x Wihtgār warriors included in the box will become Oswine, with the other six remaining the original Wihtgār warrior, Cynemund. 4x Free Wihtgār! As well as that, backers of the Darkholds: Ancient Barrows reward (including any early bird versions) will receive an extra 4x Wihtgār warriors (two of both different warriors) - for free! OPTIONAL BUY - The Dead of Black Barrow With the addition of the above you'll also be able to purchase The Dead of Black Barrow for £20 ($26) as an optional buy. This box-set will include 2x Wihtgār Champions and 18x Wihtgār warriors (nine of both different warriors), giving you a total of 20x Wihtgār to dominate the heroes and henchmen - or use in the Darklands tabletop wargame, of course!
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Post by: Aeneades
Whilst not a big thing, the comments here have said that the stretch goal is only for an alternate sculpt and not any additional miniatures but the stretch goal does actually include 4 additional models as well.
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Post by: bananaman
So the only optional buy so far is the skeleton box? Hopefully they'll give us something else to pledge money for.
There will be more. We'll be unlocking free heroes and henchmen and also offering heroes and henchmen as optional purchases as well as the opportunity to buy box sets of the other skeleton types.
So I know most of the example miniatures are just painted resin models, but will they be resculpting all the items in the box as 3D computer models
All the physical to digital re-sculpts that are in the box set have already been completed (and included on the box set image) . Some existing 3d files will be re-jigged a little to improve the quality of the final casts when moulded for PVC.
I didn't have time to look closely when it first launched, but each unit of 10 skeletons has one pose
It costs thousands for a mould. Each unit will have an additional sculpt added (and we'll give you free models from that unit too - but we do need to get to that goal first. The alternative is a higher funding goal in the first place. The KS won't be shy on freebies. Get us over the line and I promise you we'll put plenty of freebies your way.
To buy the whole box set in resin is well over £500/$642 (mix of metal and resin the cheapest way is £450/$578) - heck, to just buy the 3 big guys (Mound Beetle, Tomb Spider, Ghast) in resin the cost would be £105/$135 - and if anyone has held a PVC 'Avatar of Pride' PVC mini from Others: 7 Sins - there's not a great deal of difference between resin and PVC.
Mierce isn't willing to put any of their own money into this.
We've put thousands of pounds into it already. The new art and new sculpts alone run into many thousands and then add other production (video) and R&D costs and you're looking at well over £20k investment in this KS. Each piece of art you see, each new sculpt, each card, logo etc - costs a great deal of money.
Make no mistake - this is a Kickstarter. We have put a lot of effort into making it a tangible product so you can see our vision for what we want to do - but it isn't a fancy pre-order where all of the moulding and final production has already been paid for.
There are 68 miniatures in the box, but I count only 22 unique miniatures, which is a pretty weak offering in PVC for this price point
Compared to what game exactly? At the starting level
Zombicide Green Horde box had less unique sculpts - a few more minis.
Dark Souls - less sculpts, less minis
Deep Madness (perhaps the fairest comparison) had the same amount of minis and less unique sculpts.
We can and will add more (just like the above guys did)
The KS has been priced responsibly. We can and will give freebies, but please don't compare this KS on the first day/goal to others at their final day/goal.
We'll get some more goals up soon so you can better see where we're going with this. I promise you won't feel short changed!
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Post by: methebest
The add on wihtgar are really good value and would be good to bulk up existing metal/resin units.
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Post by: MLaw
skullking wrote: MLaw wrote:Man, this was under the radar for me. Got excited but then saw it was yet another fantasy guys vs undead board game. If they had done just about any other army as the bad guy I probably would've been all over this. And yet, unlike all those other ones, not a zombie in the box... At least Ghosts, wraiths, Giant spiders, and Beetles are different then, Zombies, fast zombies, fat zombies (that uxplurd!), Giant Zombie monster, repeat. They have said that in future expansions to the game, there will be goatmen on the Fomoraic Ice sheets, the weird rat people and mutants of the Ysian dungeons, and Vikings n' Trolls. They have a lot of different stuff they can play with, but yeah, in the end, it is heroes vs. Undead, as that has been a proven game seller for many companies. I'm with you, I loved that Massive darkness had not one zombie in the box, but I think if Darkholds is successful, they'll move away from the undead realms very quickly. Then we can have undead heroes as players! I think you're assuming Massive Darkness or Black Plague are the only fantasy boardgames..or something? Completely ignoring Heroquest (I am loathe to even type that as it is truly the greatest game ever..), I just recently-ish.. got my Sword & Sorcery pledge.. which is chock full of skellies, Conan from Monolith.. which also has... loads of skeletons, Rum and Bones, the Skeleton Archers from Black Plague, Castle Ravenloft boardgame, Dungeon Saga, Folklore (if it ever freakin gets here).. and.. guys trying to get me to buy into Runewars.. and not counting all the skellies from Bones, D&D(the prepaints and just stuff from gaming sessions).. or the really old ones from Dragon Strike, Battle Masters, Dark World, etc etc.. (and yes Warhammer).. I do absolutely agree that Meirce's skeletons are some of the best out there. No question.. period. It just doesn't strike me as an inspired choice. If they had gone with their lizards, or vermin people, or demons.. none of those are necessarily original but they are the less beaten path. I do hope this keeps going though and picks up enough momentum to lock in future expansions. That would probably be my jumping in point. Getting some of their demons in pvc would be crazy too.. I've only loosely been watching this but did they say if any possible additional content could be attained in this KS (in the way of expansions/different factions) or is it strictly being held for sometime down the road?
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
I've backed it, instead of backing either Bones IV or the Game of Thrones minis game. Looks like great value to me. I was contemplating buying some of the big monsters for the Wihts already (beetles and such) and this way it feels like I'm getting those at a good price, plus a bunch of generic but great quality skellies and a game as a freebie.
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Post by: ulgurstasta
I'm on a tentative pledge, I'm not much for boardgames but if this KS takes off we might see a lot of cool mierce miniatures at least
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Post by: bananaman
Massive 'What's in the box?' image for closer pics of minis
We're gonna stick up other stretch goals and optionals in a mo - so you guys can see what we have planned down the path.
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Post by: RiTides
bananaman wrote:I didn't have time to look closely when it first launched, but each unit of 10 skeletons has one pose
It costs thousands for a mould. Each unit will have an additional sculpt added (and we'll give you free models from that unit too - but we do need to get to that goal first. The alternative is a higher funding goal in the first place. The KS won't be shy on freebies. Get us over the line and I promise you we'll put plenty of freebies your way.
I totally get that, and actually wasn't saying you should include freebies - I think the number of models in your starting box makes complete sense.
However, I do think that, if you've got 24 sculpts in the box, the skeletons really, really need more than 1 sculpt each. I'm saying a swap, and putting something else as a stretch goal.
It even could have been conceivable to do the models that are only quantity 1 each in another material, depending on the quantity you're targeting - a hybrid game. But just one sculpt per 10-skeleton unit, with 3 such units, is a deal breaker for me... and for myself, I'd prefer to pay more to get those same units in resin from you, instead.
The rest of it looks great, imo! And only posting this to give feedback, in case there was time to adjust contents depending on further backer input going forward (I understand if it's not possible, though).
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Post by: Alpharius
Agrered on the 'let's have more sculpt variety please!' front.
Also, the OP really needs to get crackin' here - I already posted update number one, and here's update number two!
Update #2
Aug 16 2017
£150,000 - Grave Spiders
With an excellent total this morning, and more requests for stretch goals, we thought we'd bring you some. Set at £150,000 to unlock - i.e., when we're funded! - here's the Grave Spiders!
Once we reach £150,000, a new Grave Spider warrior sculpt (Ogol) will be introduced to the game. Half of the 10x Grave Spiders warriors included in the box will become Ogol, with the other five remaining the original Grave Spider warrior, Lugant.
6x Free Grave Spiders!
As well as that, backers of the Darkholds: Ancient Barrows reward (including any early bird versions) will receive an extra 6x Grave Spider warriors (three of both different warriors) - for free!
OPTIONAL BUY - Ugal's Web
With the addition of the above you'll also be able to purchase Ugal's Web for £15 ($19) as an optional buy.
This box-set will include 20x Grave Spider warriors (ten of both different warriors) to enweb the heroes and henchmen - or use in the Darklands tabletop wargame, of course!
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Post by: RiTides
I Really like the stretch goal turning some of the base spiders into the alternate sculpt (and making them half each). Although I'd still prioritize doing so for the skeletons personally
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Post by: bananaman
Ah, I Really like the stretch goal turning some of the base spiders into the alternate sculpt (and making them half each). Doing the same for the skeletons would just be ace
That's what we already showed off yesterday with the Wihtgar goal (upgraded to two spear skellybob sculpts and also give 4 miniatures away, free to backers)
We'll do it with all the skeletons and even the Dreaguth - you'll see the stretch goals go up soon, Spiders already up (apologies to arachnophobes!) 2 sculpts and 6 free spiders. The heroes will get sick of the sight of spiders turning up - they can be a real pain in the A!
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Post by: RiTides
Hah, you beat my edit . That does sound great
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Post by: bananaman
More alt sculpts for the skeletons you say? How about some freebies too?
Deal!
Once we reach £155,000, a new Wihtboga warrior sculpt and a new Wihtax warrior sculpt will be introduced to the game. Half of the 10x Wihtboga warriors included in the box will become the new Wihtboga warrior (Wassa), with the other five remaining the original Wihtboga warrior, Octha. Half of the 10x Wihtax warriors included in the box will become the new Wihtax warrior (Cenred), with the other five remaining the original Wihtax warrior, Ealdred.
4x Free Wihtbogas / Wihtaxas!
As well as that, backers of the Darkholds: Ancient Barrows reward (including any early bird versions) will receive an extra 2x Wihtboga warriors (two of both different warriors) and an extra 2x Wihtax warriors (two of both different warriors) - for free!
OPTIONAL BUY - The Dead of Ceafor Barrow
With the addition of the above you'll also be able to purchase The Dead of Ceafor Barrow for £20 ($26) as an optional buy.
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Post by: RiTides
That is just what the doctor ordered - I'm in
Only problem is we're probably folks who'd (for the most part) be jumping in anyway, since we're familiar with Darklands - hopefully there are some BGG ambassadors who can spread the word in those circles, too!
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Post by: Alpharius
Liking the sculpt variety there!
Could always use more, but I think that's a nice amount of difference for a 'boardgame'!
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Post by: bananaman
And next up the wicked Dreaguth will get a sculpt update and two free Dreaguth! As well as the opportunity to pick up more of these guys in groups of 5.
Once we reach £160,000, a new Drēaguth warrior sculpt will be introduced to the game. One of the 2x Drēaguth warriors included in the box will become the new Drēaguth warrior (Wictred), with the other one remaining the original Drēaguth warrior, Cynobog.
2x Free Drēaguthas!
As well as that, backers of the Darkholds: Ancient Barrows reward (including any early bird versions) will receive an extra 2x Drēaguth warriors (one of both different warriors) - for free!
OPTIONAL BUY - The Malign of Alum Tomb
With the addition of the above you'll also be able to purchase The Malign of Alum Tomb box set for £20 ($26) as an optional buy.
So if the KS funds and reaches £165k (a mere £15k beyond the funding target) you get
1 free Moragg of Mann
6 free Grave Spiders
4 free Wihtgar (spears)
2 free Wihtboga (bows)#
2 free Wihtax (ax and lantern)
2 free Dreaguth (wraith types)
+68 minis in the box
= 85 miniatures - and that's just the first few stretch goals!
Full update here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows/posts/1964550
Back the KS here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darkholds-ancient-barrows/description
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Post by: judgedoug
Yes, it's an uphill battle for Mierce because they didn't lie to the consumers with an artificially low funding and artificial stretch goals for models that were already going to be produced.
Not that I mind when Mantic or CMON does it, because it means that the game preys upon people's psychology and it makes a ton of money.
Unfortunately, I would guess that most Kickstarters need the appeal of "oh it's already funded and oh look every day I get another free miniature" to reach the actual forreals requirement to get the game made, versus Mierce here who has just straight up told us "look, no BS, this is how much this will cost to make".
If the "goal" was $25k and came with 15 minis but every $5k after that gave us another mini then people would be losing their minds over gettin' free stuff, despite it actually needing $200k to be manufactured.
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Post by: RiTides
Man you're a little jaded doug
I agree in part of course, but rather than artificial ideally there'd be a plan in place to make a smaller game if it only funded at say 100K (if that was the goal).
Also I wouldn't get worried yet - obviously they need to reach out to the board gaming / other communities, but many more people are being exposed to this right now as a result of the campaign.
Even if, in the worst case, this failed to fund, remember that the second highest funded Kickstarter EVER, actually failed to fund the first time around (with a 125K goal... and ended up raising over 13M!). So there's no harm in putting this out there and then, if needed, reworking slightly and launching again.
With the goals up to 165K, I think this offering is very competitive, and I'm very stoked for it
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Post by: judgedoug
Hah, not necessarily jaded, just realistic.
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Post by: Alpharius
This really does show the difference between 'boardgames' and 'wargames' in terms of street appeal and Kickstarter campaigns.
£55K in just about a day is a record breaker for Mierce!
And being over a third of the way funded with almost 700 backers this 'early' is good too, I think.
20 days to go, lots of 'freebies' coming at or just after funding...we should be ok!
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Post by: bananaman
Yeah, the value is there. And if you compare it side by side in terms of value at £165k to similar KS at the same level - it's actually incredible value!
Get us to £165k and this is what you'll be getting. (click on spoiler tag as the image is mahoosive)
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Post by: Alpharius
Mierce Miniatures 17-time creator about 2 hours ago
Tim's been busy on the BGG page...
We have Facebook advertising and I've just done a mailshot; next on my list is Daarkan, the new Fomoraic Hero, at £170,000...
You knew Baalor's boys weren't going to stay unrepresented for long here!
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Post by: Pacific
Loving the new skeleton sculpts - have to say these are probably some of the nicest sculpts I have ever seen for one, and i've seen a lot of skeletons I can tell you!
Spiders are suitably creepy, so job done there I think. Always think they are an essential in a dungeon crawl game, even if they're not that effective in game they tend to freak people out, who then attack them as a priority over other (possibly more deadly) monsters!
Glad to see this is ticking along nicely.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
A few social media stretch goals might also be a good idea. I know us wargamers tend to be old farts/luddites, but the board game crowd is much more hooked in from what I've seen.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
The second wave of skeletons look much more impressive. Still, I'm really only interested in the heroes, and maybe a myna chad du, geisha or Flanagan. Automatically Appended Next Post: Autocorrect hates your game.
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Post by: Alpharius
BobtheInquisitor wrote:The second wave of skeletons look much more impressive. Still, I'm really only interested in the heroes, and maybe a myna chad du, geisha or Flanagan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Autocorrect hates your game.
I was going to say 'try harder' and 'that's not even remotely amusing' but...
...no, I'll stick with that - no desire to 'encourage' more of that!
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Post by: skullking
MLaw wrote: skullking wrote: MLaw wrote:Man, this was under the radar for me. Got excited but then saw it was yet another fantasy guys vs undead board game. If they had done just about any other army as the bad guy I probably would've been all over this.
And yet, unlike all those other ones, not a zombie in the box...
At least Ghosts, wraiths, Giant spiders, and Beetles are different then, Zombies, fast zombies, fat zombies (that uxplurd!), Giant Zombie monster, repeat.
They have said that in future expansions to the game, there will be goatmen on the Fomoraic Ice sheets, the weird rat people and mutants of the Ysian dungeons, and Vikings n' Trolls. They have a lot of different stuff they can play with, but yeah, in the end, it is heroes vs. Undead, as that has been a proven game seller for many companies.
I'm with you, I loved that Massive darkness had not one zombie in the box, but I think if Darkholds is successful, they'll move away from the undead realms very quickly. Then we can have undead heroes as players!
I think you're assuming Massive Darkness or Black Plague are the only fantasy boardgames..or something?
Completely ignoring Heroquest (I am loathe to even type that as it is truly the greatest game ever..), I just recently-ish.. got my Sword & Sorcery pledge.. which is chock full of skellies, Conan from Monolith.. which also has... loads of skeletons, Rum and Bones, the Skeleton Archers from Black Plague, Castle Ravenloft boardgame, Dungeon Saga, Folklore (if it ever freakin gets here).. and.. guys trying to get me to buy into Runewars.. and not counting all the skellies from Bones, D&D(the prepaints and just stuff from gaming sessions).. or the really old ones from Dragon Strike, Battle Masters, Dark World, etc etc.. (and yes Warhammer).. I do absolutely agree that Meirce's skeletons are some of the best out there. No question.. period. It just doesn't strike me as an inspired choice.
If they had gone with their lizards, or vermin people, or demons.. none of those are necessarily original but they are the less beaten path. I do hope this keeps going though and picks up enough momentum to lock in future expansions. That would probably be my jumping in point. Getting some of their demons in pvc would be crazy too..
I've only loosely been watching this but did they say if any possible additional content could be attained in this KS (in the way of expansions/different factions) or is it strictly being held for sometime down the road?
Well... Technically based on what was originally said, you thought the was 'another' heroes vs undead game. And where as all the ones you listed are 'general fantasy' meaning you have undead and other beasties/villians (I haven't played all of them, but I know they are good too), I was just pointing out the general skew of ones where it's mostly heroes vs undead usually tend to be zombie horde games for some reason. And that is very true, there are a CRAP TON of fantasy games out there, even with the group you listed there's still Myth, Super Dungeon Explore, Kingdom Death (I think that one did ok?), Patheon, Orcs must Die!, Cthulhu Wars (kinda), Dark Souls, Village Attacks, Arcadia Quest, Ninja All-Stars, B-Sieged, Banner Saga, Probably more that I didn't actually help fund.
Mierce's skeletons are part of the Jutes which are one of their most popular armies (I think Fomoraic still take the top spot), and I think a lot of people like games where you fight the undead better then just a bunch of other humans, or weird monsters (though kingdom death would surely destroy that theory ). As a fomoraic Darklands player, I'd have much preferred a game with an army of Gabrax, Reivers, and Warriors of Baalor (Beastmen, marauders, & Chaos Warriors for those not familiar with Darklands), but I think starting with skeletons and wraiths makes sense, and you can have it down in the barrows, which is a cool place they don't talk about much in the lore (what there is of it...).
I agree that they should have some expansions that deviate from the Jutes, maybe a fomoraic warband, or some Vras raiders are trying to ransack the barrow as well. AI vs AI enemies! Could be cool.
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Post by: Alpharius
IF Darkholds does well, there will be expansions like what you've mentioned - Fomoraic for certain.
But, I don't think they'll show up in this KS - and that's probably an OK thing, so as not to over-promise and under-deliver out of the gate...
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Post by: MLaw
Alpharius wrote:IF Darkholds does well, there will be expansions like what you've mentioned - Fomoraic for certain.
But, I don't think they'll show up in this KS - and that's probably an OK thing, so as not to over-promise and under-deliver out of the gate...
Ah, this is what I was looking for. Thanks to you and skullking for clearing up. The names Mierce use frustrate me more than they should. Their webpage could stand for some sort of easy to follow graphics for people unfamiliar with the cryptic names they've selected. A beastman type expansion would very likely get me in.
skullking - I was literally just thinking about games I have or am waiting on that have a healthy stock of skeletons in them.. I think we were coming at it from different frames of mind is all. I'm pretty sure Descent probably has a skeleton box as well, I have just avoided it.. albeit to my chagrin. Some of the other games you guys have mentioned caught my eye as well but I missed out on or just can't get behind at the moment. Mierce has a special place for me as a company I want to back when the project and my funding line up though. I like what they do it's just not fallen into place yet.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Well done on keeping this updated today Alpharius & Bananaman (Tim)
I tend not to be able to get online during the day on Wednesday but hopefully I should be able to post all the updates tomorrow
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Post by: Alpharius
No worries Orlando - I was just kidding with you!
We'll all do our best to keep it updated!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I know, it's cool
and it's good that others are happy to wade in when I can't get it done, nothing worse than your KS thread of choice falling off the front page away from its (hopefully backing) public
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Post by: devilution
I love mm and darklands.
But I wish they would get a real gfx designer and a real boardgame designer on board.
The cards, the rulebook (darklands) they could really use a designer s touch.
I kinda wish we had mierce fantasy world and miniatures and kd:m gameplay / card designs.
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Post by: Hanskrampf
devilution wrote:I love mm and darklands.
But I wish they would get a real gfx designer and a real boardgame designer on board.
The cards, the rulebook (darklands) they could really use a designer s touch.
I kinda wish we had mierce fantasy world and miniatures and kd:m gameplay / card designs.
I'm with you. Every time I see this yellow subline (Rulebook, Savage Hordes, Ancient Barrows) under the logo, I can do nothing but shake my head.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Mierce Miniatures 17-time creator 19 minutes ago Apologies in advance for my silence today, but I am getting the rules formatted to show you all. Tim will no doubt be about to answer any questions and what not. Any plans for a French translation? I've no plans for translations yet [although a backer who's a French magazine editor has now offered to help out with this and Rob's said he's interested and translations are certainly possible... I'm assuming pdfs rather than print at the moment... but the game needs to get funded before exploring it more] question about where more stuff for the game will appear? I will be publishing news on our webstore and BGG as well as others; Are all units use on all level ? yes, all of the units are used on all of the levels, although some monsters are restricted to some levels (i.e., each area has a "boss"); are the enemies on level 1 weaker than level 2 etc not weaker, but in later levels there's more of them and more of the enemies that buff them, and special level rules that buff them to be stronger; Do you need to buy the optional stuff? You don't need the optional buys, but they will help; can you run out of enemies... yes you can! whatever you run out of gains +1 vigour, and other nasty things. It ensures heroes can't just ignore the enemies. Automatically Appended Next Post: Optional Buy
Resin Morag of Mann £15
your only chance to get her in resin ever
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Post by: MattW
Well, I'm in for my first ever KS.
Hope it makes it!
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Post by: grefven
I wonder if Darkholds will make the Darklands wargame more popular, too, as people now can mount a really large "undead" army in plastics (more or less). Would be cool to see what Darkholds could branch out into.
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Post by: Pacific
I've had Darklands on my 'wish list' of projects for ages! Have some SAGA, bit of creepy looking dark ages terrain so think it would be a short step from that.
Have got another project or two in the way but will hopefully get to them before too long.
Was definitely thinking that this might help with that!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
a very rough draft of some of the rules
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Mierce Miniatures
Morning everyone! Hope you are all well.
It's a family weekend for me I'm afraid, so I'll be on here intermittently; progress is this - rules are almost ready, they should be with you on Monday, and I'm hopeful of the first level up too, although that's quite a heavy graphic workload so we'll see. Either way it will be shown next week.
Next week I'll be giving you more heroes, henchmen and enemies as optional buys, and to poke this project forward we may well introduce stretch goals for such around the £65k mark and onwards; but giving you resins to use in the game rather than plastics because plastic is *not* cheap to produce and we need to get to the goal to fund that. More on that next week.
@Yx - all of the darkholds will be heroes/henchmen vs one enemy kindred; otherwise we can't do specific settings, such as the Gabrax Herdstone in snowbound forests (where enemies can enter from anywhere), the entrance to Infernus, the catacombs of Par-Ys and the Vras... they just wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Regardless, you can swap in/out monsters as you want, but we're not going to design a darkhold to encounter to a myriad of enemies.
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Post by: ArtIsGreat
That would be good, give us some things to buy that aren't in the game already
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Post by: MattW
Looks like this will struggle to get close to funding. I knew I'd give it the kiss of death!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I think there's still a solid chance,
Gencon has eaten up a lot of the space on the news services
(I've not seen anything about this even on places that now run with Mierce's normal KS),
so hopefully next week when there aren't eleventy billion and one new releases to talk about we can get some publicity
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Post by: MattW
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I think there's still a solid chance,
Gencon has eaten up a lot of the space on the news services
(I've not seen anything about this even on places that now run with Mierce's normal KS),
so hopefully next week when there aren't eleventy billion and one new releases to talk about we can get some publicity
I hope you're right, but it needs about 1000 more backers, If I've done my sums correctly. That seems... a pretty high bar. And even then, all we'll get is the very basic set, with no alternate sculpts etc.
They seem to have rushed this campaign to launch- they need some optional buys (whether that's additional tiles, or art books, or whatever else, I don't really know what they can offer) to help the total along without needing to attract quite so many new backers.
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Post by: Azreal13
Rob and the team are old KS hands, they won't have rushed anything and they'll have a plan in place for most likely contingencies.
It is a massive total, but there's also plenty of time.
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Post by: Alpharius
The last two days haven't been good at all, but it is still early days here.
15 days to go...
Given the adjustments that are coming Monday, well...it's going to be close!
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Post by: MattW
Just backsliding over the last few days. Whatever they whip out to get this back on track had better be good!
I think that it was rushed because of the omissions over the first few days- no gameplay video, no shots of the tiles, no rules to look at, etc.
I'm hoping to be proven wrong!
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Post by: Prestor Jon
I hope things pick up and this funds. I managed to grab an EB so I was pretty excited at launch but now it seems to have hit a bit of a wall. Hopefully it gets rolling again, I'd really like to see it succeed because I want the proposed expansions to come out too.
I haven't made time to read through the rules yet, do they allow for single faction parties of heroes? It would be cool to be able to form a party from just my Ysians or Norse instead of using a group of heroes from factions that would normally be trying to kill each other but have taken a break to join forces Super Friends style to go spelunking for treasure.
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Post by: Mymearan
Looking at it now I doubt it funds, and I imagine they'll pull the plug. Mierce are great at resin model KS but they have exactly zero experience doing board games. ATM there's isn't anything setting them apart from a dozen other dungeon crawls aside from their amazing (as usual) sculpts, and even there I think they made a big mistake with the entirely duplicate sculpts for each unit. Also for some reason there isn't a picture that shows what you actually get for your money which seems like a rookie mistake (the "you get this for £90" graphic only shows miniatures). Board gamers want to know what they get, they aren't in it for the miniatures and the miniatures alone like a typical Mierce backer. They need to see the tiles, the dice, the cards, tokens etc all laid out in an attractive way, even if it's with an asterisk saying "final contents may vary from those shown". With all that in mind I really can't see them recovering and amassing the amount of backers it'll take to get this back on track. I expect a relaunch with alternate sculpts from the beginning, a much better presentation and maybe something else to sweeten the pot (don't know what it would be though).
Look at Darklight, which managed to pull in £150 000: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/53406598/darklight-memento-mori-miniatures-dungeon-crawler?ref=discovery
And even then, that was with way less competition and before everyone and their mother was using KS.
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Post by: Gallahad
As far as I can tell, most people are backing this to get their hands on "Mierce miniatures" at a discount (my main reason for backing), and if the game turns out well, that is a bonus. In my opinion, Mierce should view this campaign as an indication that there is an appetite for their miniatures in a more cost effective material. Additionally, while the skeletons are nice, a giant spider and a giant beetle have to be the two most generic and boring large creatures in their entire catalogue. Not sure why they chose those for their big splash board game. The skeletons are also probably the most generic infantry in their catalogue as well. I will likely drop my pledge today unless something drastic happens, but I think they have already fired a lot of their paid add-on ammo and can't/won't change the base game for a variety of reasons.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I suspect the Jutes (skeletons) were choses as they've been one of the most popular kindreds in the range ever since they were launched
and provide human sized opponents that are easily distinguished from the heroes (rather than just more humans which is what most of the rest would bring)
They have also all been digitally sculpted which means not having to pay for that all over again which would have pushed the price up (pretty much the only other choice for that would have been the Atlantes)
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Post by: MattW
Alpharius wrote:The last two days haven't been good at all, but it is still early days here.
15 days to go...
Given the adjustments that are coming Monday, well...it's going to be close!
Well, I'm not sure what these adjustments were supposed to be, but they haven't worked.
The constant backsliding is pretty disheartening.
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Post by: Gallahad
Well, I dropped. Good luck on the next one guys.
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Post by: Hanskrampf
Why are these rule drafts posted in the comments and not as updates? This isn't really helping the campaign...
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah, good question.
This is the third straight day of negative funding, but 'only' the first with losing backers too...
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
well the first one was far from finished so I can see why putting it out in an update wouldn't have been smart.....
(people seeing it was missing bits might well have headed for the exit, if they get it from the comments they are likely to be engaged enough to read more was coming)
this one, not so sure i'd have thought updating (thus giving an excuse for less active threads elsewhere to be boosted upward) would be smart
maybe Rob isn't on his KS enabled machine?
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Post by: Pacific
MattW wrote:Looks like this will struggle to get close to funding. I knew I'd give it the kiss of death!
Well.. thanks a lot for that MattW !
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Post by: Orlanth
Disappointed. We are in the mid campaign lull and losing backers.
The last 48 hour pickup only usually happens if fresh punters see the game has well over 100% funding.
Keep my pledge in, but am assuming at this point that the project will fail and I wont get billed.
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Post by: MattW
They seem to have absolutely no plans to keep people interested, and there are apparently no plans for optional buys.
It looks like their plan was simply to get 1700 backers or so. :| Automatically Appended Next Post: OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:well the first one was far from finished so I can see why putting it out in an update wouldn't have been smart.....
(people seeing it was missing bits might well have headed for the exit, if they get it from the comments they are likely to be engaged enough to read more was coming)
this one, not so sure i'd have thought updating (thus giving an excuse for less active threads elsewhere to be boosted upward) would be smart
maybe Rob isn't on his KS enabled machine?
All you have to do is watermark "WORK IN PROGRESS" across the pages in big red letters, or something. Inviting feedback on mechanics would be a great way to get people invested in the KS I reckon, but they haven't done that either.
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Post by: Jeegen
This is breaking my heart. Why do people withdraw a backing, if they funded it in the first place? In other words...why did they even back it? You lose nothing if it doesn't fund.
I'm not up an ALL the games out there, but this one really grabs my fancy. Good looking minis and a fun setting where undead fit perfectly, IMO. Plus dungeon crawl with minions....such fun!
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Post by: ced1106
That's how EB's work. Fence-sitters pledge immediately, expecting SG's to unlock, rather than wait until they unlock and pledge. This builds momentum. But, some potential backers will lose interest in a KS very quickly (I've seen posters complain about rewards within the first *two* days of a KS), and drop their pledge when the SG's don't unlock -- as well as other problems they may see that the KS has. The net results are pretty much the same, although the momentum makes the KS more exciting. Myself, I think this KS was a missed opportunity to get new players into Darklands with a plastic starter set. That is, *prominently* tell new backers that the boardgame figures could be used for the miniatures game. Frex, they could have added enough components to the initial offering so that you could also play Darklands with the base pledge. (I know Massive Darkness got additional pledges with their Zombicide crossover kit.) Also, of course, the plastics were competing against Reaper (and CMON), which had more variety and more figures for the pledge. Still, at 700+ backers, that's the most backers compared to their other (metal) KS. If the project doesn't fund, they should contact these backers and find out what did work with the project. I do know there's a way for creators to contact those who have dropped their pledges, and I think that would be valuable information as well.
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Post by: RiTides
Also remember an unsuccessful campaign doesn't mean the project can't happen - many relaunches have been much more successful than the original!
However, I think this project does need to address a few things and be more attractive to board gamers, to increase the market - let's be honest, most of us posting here would back anyway, but it's the people beyond that core group that the project needs to really work on bringing in.
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Post by: smurfORnot
I droped my pledge. Rules&minis didn't really catch my atention tbh, and there are plenty of KS coming soon which I plan to back(Joan of arc looks rly inteeresting, 7th continent, Batman, HATE etc.). There is only so much Money&time I have, so unless something is really good or catches my atention for some reason, I can't justify expense.
Best of luck with campaign!
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Post by: Alpharius
RiTides wrote:Also remember an unsuccessful campaign doesn't mean the project can't happen - many relaunches have been much more successful than the original!
However, I think this project does need to address a few things and be more attractive to board gamers, to increase the market - let's be honest, most of us posting here would back anyway, but it's the people beyond that core group that the project needs to really work on bringing in.
Exactly!
Like it or not, true or not, people aren't backing this one and some are dropping out over the lack of perceived 'value' here.
They've been sort of conditioned by CMON "PVC" campaigns in terms of 'numbers of miniatures'.
Factor in that Mierce is a bit of an unknown here still, at least in this corner of the market, and, well, here we are.
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Post by: J0kerr2017
Alpharius wrote: RiTides wrote:Also remember an unsuccessful campaign doesn't mean the project can't happen - many relaunches have been much more successful than the original!
However, I think this project does need to address a few things and be more attractive to board gamers, to increase the market - let's be honest, most of us posting here would back anyway, but it's the people beyond that core group that the project needs to really work on bringing in.
Exactly!
Like it or not, true or not, people aren't backing this one and some are dropping out over the lack of perceived 'value' here.
They've been sort of conditioned by CMON "PVC" campaigns in terms of 'numbers of miniatures'.
Factor in that Mierce is a bit of an unknown here still, at least in this corner of the market, and, well, here we are.
Why shouldn't people look for the value? This is an expensive hobby, and I (like others) are not rolling in money to spend on it.
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Post by: Azazelx
Yeah, doing the whole "these would cost over $785 in resin" thing isn't the same when you're selling PVC - especially with many of them in only 1 pose (2 with SGs). Even "DUST PVC" which is pretty good isn't the same as resin or metal. Add to that an 18(+, because Kickstarter) month weight for the models and it's that much less appealing.
Did Mierce ever deliver on that Art Book? Wasn't that initially due about 3 years and 15 kickstarter campaigns ago? That hardly bodes well for a boxed game being even vaguely on time.
A messy rulebook WIP coming out after about a week doesn't especially sell it to the BG crowd, who should be a decent focus of any boardgame. (who'd's thunk it?)
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Post by: Alpharius
J0kerr2017 wrote: Alpharius wrote: RiTides wrote:Also remember an unsuccessful campaign doesn't mean the project can't happen - many relaunches have been much more successful than the original!
However, I think this project does need to address a few things and be more attractive to board gamers, to increase the market - let's be honest, most of us posting here would back anyway, but it's the people beyond that core group that the project needs to really work on bringing in.
Exactly!
Like it or not, true or not, people aren't backing this one and some are dropping out over the lack of perceived 'value' here.
They've been sort of conditioned by CMON "PVC" campaigns in terms of 'numbers of miniatures'.
Factor in that Mierce is a bit of an unknown here still, at least in this corner of the market, and, well, here we are.
Why shouldn't people look for the value? This is an expensive hobby, and I (like others) are not rolling in money to spend on it.
Did someone say you shouldn't?
The point I was trying to make is that (clearly) different people have different definitions of that, and that's what drives - or doesn't drive - many campaigns.
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Post by: MLaw
I dunno.. it's easy to throw shade at CMoN (and they defenitely deserve some) but pretending that all of these places aren't just pumping Ludo or another chinese company for dirt cheap minis is not being honest about what we're talking about. Privateer Press with their boardgames, Reaper Bones, the D&D Boardgames, Monolith's games, Megacon games with Myth and Mercs, Greebo, Greenbrier, etc etc.(seriously etc.. there's so many more examples). It's no longer the exception to offer a gak load of miniatures in a game.. The bar got raised on what is a standard and Mierce might be too mired in boutique thinking to fully understand this.
That said, mini count wasn't my problem with this. The whole thing was trite. I didn't look at anything from the core of this and go "man, I just don't have enough of that in my life". By comparison, I just saw an update about Monolith's Pantheon and am kicking myself for missing that one. I still have to crack open Sword and Sorcery and Conan... and they were also loaded with things that made me stop.
Mierce has the catalog. I don't know anything about their games or any of that but they need to communicate with others in the industry and figure out how to boost their value without screwing the pooch. The guy they had posting here seemed standoffish though so I don't know that I'll hold my breath on that front. They also might want to find a way to add variety. Look at Heroquest as an example.. You don't really just fight one type of creature. I have zero desire to play a game where I beat up skeletons for the length of a campaign to be rewarded with getting to fight a giant bug. There's no scenario where that plays out in my mind as some epic tale. If you had to fight through some skeletons, some lizardmen, some beastmen.. only to battle a massive.. demon/dragon/chimera/anything other than a freaking bug... HEY.. I'm in! I expect others probably see it that way too.
(post running long now.. geez). I've backed quite a few games now.. and I didn't actually realize it until I typed the above.. but the ones I've selected did generally have loads of variety.. or at least SOME variety.. and the ones I've played and keep playing have had the most.
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Post by: Alpharius
Ugh.
The backsliding on the campaign is starting to pick up...momentum?
It is approaching 'troubling' territory.
What has less of a stink attached to it?
A failed campaign that goes to the end, or a canceled one, before the end?
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Post by: RiTides
I think either can be effective - all depends on the quality of the relaunch. You don't have to look any farther than the Shieldmaidens campaign by Shieldwolf to see one that did much better the second time around . I'll be watching to see what Mierce has in store...
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Post by: MLaw
Alpharius wrote:Ugh.
The backsliding on the campaign is starting to pick up...momentum?
It is approaching 'troubling' territory.
What has less of a stink attached to it?
A failed campaign that goes to the end, or a canceled one, before the end?
IMO it's never the act of riding it out or canceling, it's about the creator's willingness to own it and address concerns with a plan forward through clear communication.
I am puzzled about people pulling out though. If it's not going to take off then just let it ride out. At least that way the funding level at time of death doesn't look as abysmal for the relaunch. Which.. is probably a good reason to cancel.. I dunno.
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Post by: Jeegen
MLaw wrote: Alpharius wrote:Ugh.
The backsliding on the campaign is starting to pick up...momentum?
It is approaching 'troubling' territory.
What has less of a stink attached to it?
A failed campaign that goes to the end, or a canceled one, before the end?
IMO it's never the act of riding it out or canceling, it's about the creator's willingness to own it and address concerns with a plan forward through clear communication.
I am puzzled about people pulling out though. If it's not going to take off then just let it ride out. At least that way the funding level at time of death doesn't look as abysmal for the relaunch. Which.. is probably a good reason to cancel.. I dunno.
I agree with MLaw.
So, assuming the worst and preparing; where is a good place to keep tabs on upcoming KS projects, other than the creator's webpage? Is there some site that consolidates upcoming projects (even if some are merely rumors)?
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Post by: Azreal13
I'd say the dedicated Mierce news thread on the biggest wargaming forum on the planet is probably an ok bet!
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Post by: JSG
The offer in terms of minis are dull as ditchwater. Give me some trolls, woolly rhino guys, toothy no face guy or some of the other really cool minis they make in pvc and I'd be backing this to the hilt. As it is they're offering some rather dull heroes, some skeletons that won't look as nice irl and whose weapons will all be too thin and some bugs. Meh.
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Post by: skullking
Oooff... It's sad to see the KS slow down like this.
I wish Mierce would put more into advertising, they try to do more than a few tweets, podcasts, and relying on fans to spread the word, otherwise they're not bringing in any new people. On top of that, there is a whole different skew of rules when you're dealing with larger groups, you need to have people dedicated to answering questions and dealing with the community at all times. Rob does a phenomenal job with the groups which back their normal KS, but we're at about 3 times as many people now, and we're not even half funded.
I think the products are solid, and the videos are a HUGE improvement. They have nice representations of what's in the game, and personally, I don't mind that the rules are still being tweaked. However, I think the radio silence over the weekend was a mistake ( especially when people were very happy with the amazing amount of attention we got when the campaign started). And I think the Boardgame fans are a very different crowd then what Mierce is used to dealing with. When you get so many more people participating, we've seen a lot of great new people experience the amazing stuff Mierce makes, but there's plenty of brand new whiners as well.
I think they shouldn't quit, and should keep going, but really reach out and try and bring in new people. Make that facebook page/group (even though Rob hates facebook ). Drop some cash on advertising on BoW, Dakka, and TGN (I'm going to guess there's a certain amount to time you have to do this before a project, so that might be moot), really watch the KS comments, and any forum posts, so you can jump in and answer any questions/concerns people have ASAP.
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Post by: Jeegen
Azreal13 wrote:I'd say the dedicated Mierce news thread on the biggest wargaming forum on the planet is probably an ok bet!
Roger that, buddy
Looks like this would be that:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/688176.page
skullking wrote:Oooff... It's sad to see the KS slow down like this.
I wish Mierce would put more into advertising, they try to do more than a few tweets, podcasts, and relying on fans to spread the word, otherwise they're not bringing in any new people. On top of that, there is a whole different skew of rules when you're dealing with larger groups, you need to have people dedicated to answering questions and dealing with the community at all times. Rob does a phenomenal job with the groups which back their normal KS, but we're at about 3 times as many people now, and we're not even half funded.
I think the products are solid, and the videos are a HUGE improvement. They have nice representations of what's in the game, and personally, I don't mind that the rules are still being tweaked. However, I think the radio silence over the weekend was a mistake ( especially when people were very happy with the amazing amount of attention we got when the campaign started). And I think the Boardgame fans are a very different crowd then what Mierce is used to dealing with. When you get so many more people participating, we've seen a lot of great new people experience the amazing stuff Mierce makes, but there's plenty of brand new whiners as well.
I think they shouldn't quit, and should keep going, but really reach out and try and bring in new people. Make that facebook page/group (even though Rob hates facebook ). Drop some cash on advertising on BoW, Dakka, and TGN (I'm going to guess there's a certain amount to time you have to do this before a project, so that might be moot), really watch the KS comments, and any forum posts, so you can jump in and answer any questions/concerns people have ASAP.
I thought I'd read somewhere there are companies dedicated to helping KS projects succeed vis-a-vis what you are mentioning above. Wonder how much Mierce would benefit from something like that versus the cost? I would love for the next iteration of this to succeed, as it really looks bad for this one. But, I'm still keeping my pledge in there.
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Post by: ced1106
Jeegen wrote:I thought I'd read somewhere there are companies dedicated to helping KS projects succeed vis-a-vis what you are mentioning above. Wonder how much Mierce would benefit from something like that versus the cost? I would love for the next iteration of this to succeed, as it really looks bad for this one. But, I'm still keeping my pledge in there.
From the KS Best Practices FB group, none whatsoever. https://www.facebook.com/groups/KickstarterBestPractices/
The group is run by James Mathe, who wrote various articles on KS : http://www.jamesmathe.com/
Speaking of KS cancellations, here's a video to KS creators that just appeared in the Best Practices group. The video also analyzes the types of backers. : https://youtu.be/fQOQ0jrTcWA
Even though CMON's KS are $120+, at $100, boardgamers and non-loyal backers are going to expect CMON-levels of miniatures and presentation. You're also going to need unconventional sculpts to capture non-loyal attention. I certainly see Mierce has many unusual miniatures, yet, as said, all this boardgame has are skeletons and spiders.
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Post by: Slinky
Cancelled
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Post by: ced1106
However, I do need to recoup some monies that have been spent on the project - not least the videos and the artwork; so I will be running a sale on the webstore which I hope you guys will take part in.
What I *may* do is a short project on here, too, for a few things I have in my locker - i.e., concepts I have and not used. What I'd like to know is, if I introduce more new miniatures, such as the Ghuls, Dwimor and so forth, plus older ones like the Felljötunn, would you guys go for that?
Darkholds is not likely to be re-launched in 2017, please note. You'd be looking at Jan/Feb for that.
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Post by: RoninXiC
Shame :\
It never ticked for me any marks. It was just one of way too many dungeon crawlers.
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Post by: judgedoug
I never quite understood the mentality of pulling your pledge before the last 24 hours or so.
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed - the only explanation that 'works' is that you've decided you don't want to back it at all anymore, for whatever reason.
Otherwise, yeah, let it ride!
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Post by: judgedoug
Heh -
Darkholds canceled with more funding than Maelstrom's Edge had!
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Post by: Myrthe
While I love Dungeon Crawls, especially ones with undead, this was a pretty weak offering with narrow breadth of diversity. Especially for the base pledge amount.
Creators have gotten more savvy and they launch much more polished projects or, at least, have a clear direction and strategy to maintain funding growth.
I understand Mierce's "real" funding goal but, given the base pledge amount, the light content, the lack of rules and gameplay vids at launch, the few "more of the same" add-ons and out-of-reach stretch goals this project had a lot stacked against it.
That's not to say I'm not disappointed to see it cancelled. But it's for the best and I'll definitely be back when they relaunch a more refined campaign.
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Post by: Necros
It's great that they were able to get the funding as high as they did but I think their goal was just way too high for a KS campaign that's not a major brand like CMON. Even though it was probably a pretty realistic goal, big boxed games are hella expensive to produce especially when you start adding in really high quality components.
I think they need to keep working, revise things and also make it a lot more unique. If you want a new dungeon crawler game these days, it's gotta be better than what we already have, and we have a lot now. They also should try and scale things back and find a way to cut their funding goal in half.. have less components, or board tiles that aren't as thick, and fewer copies of the same minis.. then add those things back in as upgrades for stretch goals. So starting with a lower but also realistic funding goal will give em a better chance for success, and they can add more bells and whistles later.. if newcomers come and see the campaign already funded, they'll be more likely to back and keep things moving forward.
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Post by: RiTides
He mentioned a website sale in the comments, but I don't see it on their homepage. Was it sent out in their email newsletter?
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Post by: Azreal13
Yeah, 25% off RRP with the code, er.. hang on.. Automatically Appended Next Post: SUMMER-2017
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Post by: RiTides
Excellent, thanks
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Post by: Alpharius
This one's dead now - but would you believe there's ANOTHER Mierce KS campaign active - right now?!?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/688176.page#8600742
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