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Post by: Kanluwen
Simple question. Would you rather see new Regiments introduced or showcased, updated Regiments of old, a "new Imperial Army" reforged by Guilliman to cope with this new Dark Imperium?
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Currently there is no reason for regiment key words at all. There are only really two armies supported with characters right now only for them, Cadian's and slightly Catchatans. A plastic range needs to be made to support more regiments within the setting.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 NenkotaMoon wrote:Currently there is no reason for regiment key words at all. There are only really two armies supported with characters right now only for them, Cadian's and slightly Catchatans. A plastic range needs to be made to support more regiments within the setting.
Remember that Regiments also apply to Scions and Auxilia stuff like Ratlings and Ogryn.
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Post by: jeff white
Support existing investors.
Continuity and reliability build trust.
Geedub needs to build trust with people having spent thousands and as many hours on geedub products.
Modding imp guard to invalidate or squat existing factions will backfire on geedub.
After AoS not much is left for many people.
I hope geedub sees this.
The 41st age is coming...
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Post by: Blacksails
As much as I'm pretty heavily invested in 3rd party miniatures that fill the void GW left behind, I certainly wouldn't complain about new plastic regiments or plastic versions of the older regiments. I still buy many of my characters from GW for a few reasons, so I'd be happy to see more plastic Guardsmen, especially characters.
I'd like to see some more vehicles, like older Guard tanks, and I wouldn't complain if GW took over some units from FW to turn into plastic.
I'm hoping the rules are good. I nominally play Mordian Iron Guard, but with the fate of the planet in question, it gives me some leeway to run them as various 'regiments' depending on the type of army I'm running.
I also want a Sentinel commander. Let me issue orders to Sentinels, like that formation we had in 7th.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
 Kanluwen wrote: NenkotaMoon wrote:Currently there is no reason for regiment key words at all. There are only really two armies supported with characters right now only for them, Cadian's and slightly Catchatans. A plastic range needs to be made to support more regiments within the setting.
Remember that Regiments also apply to Scions and Auxilia stuff like Ratlings and Ogryn.
All basically nothing for the most part keyword wise with only one character for Ogryns.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Speaking for myself, I want things to go one of two ways:
1) Existing Regiments get slowly converted into plastic. Not all at once, mind you, but a gradual thing. Whether it is as specialized units(Tanith and Tallarn themed models for Scout infantry, as an example) or a whole range I don't care, but the idea would be that it gets done after a range consolidation has happened to allow for space to be made. As that is being done, we also get new kit that won't necessarily require too much effort to rework for the other Regiments. Things like sentry guns, Sabre Gun Platforms, and the Rapier. Make it so that when the infantry boxes are done for the other Regiments they include an extra body somewhere that can work for the Sabre/Rapier(like how the Dark Eldar Wracks include parts for crew manning the Raider/Venom). Maybe put it in the Command Squad box, since that used to be a 5 model squad but is now 4 models and the Commander is a separate choice on the field.
2) A fluff shift. Guilliman reforms all the disparate regiments and has them equipped the same. A new Imperial Army is formed, to serve alongside the Primaris on Crusade. The equipment that was previously so varied for the regiments is now used by the Planetary Defense Forces or those regiments already on campaign at the time of the new Imperial Army's muster.
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Post by: Ginjitzu
Are DKoK available in plastic?
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Forge World resin I believe.
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Post by: Ginjitzu
Then that's what I want. An entire suite of plastic Death Korps. Battleline troops, elites, fast attack, heavy support, vehicles etc. All sculpted in the Death Korps aesthetic. All in multi-part plastic kits. I'd abandon the Unforgiven like a hot snot if I could get that.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Kanluwen wrote:
2) A fluff shift. Guilliman reforms all the disparate regiments and has them equipped the same. A new Imperial Army is formed, to serve alongside the Primaris on Crusade. The equipment that was previously so varied for the regiments is now used by the Planetary Defense Forces or those regiments already on campaign at the time of the new Imperial Army's muster.
The last thing we need is having the bulk of the Imperium forces being seconded to Marines, again.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Might as well get rid of them then.
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Post by: Aenarian
What I want and what GW (excluding FW) wants has never really been the same.
At its heart, the GW Imperial Guard is a very mechanized force, with all of their main support elements being vehicles (self-propelled artillery, tanks or aircraft). You have almost nothing between man-portable heavy weapons and actual division-level support (in a modern sense). If you play a purely GW army, you have to take tanks or heavy artillery if you want something heavier than a lascannon. I would like to see something more akin to the Forge World heavy mortar or quad launcher, i.e. non-vehicle field artillery.
I would like to see something else than the eternal Cadian regiments. Everything they release now is just about Cadians, with the only reason Catachans actually having something is because they still produce those models. If the molds broke, they would be gone. Give us actual rules for different regiments, or doctrines, or whatever. As it stands right now, you're just ruining it for yourself by not taking Cadian or Catachan keywords. But I would also wish that they gave us a some form of "Build-your-regiment"-rules instead of just giving some half-arsed ones for the ones still in production, with some of them maybe having preset bonuses.
I would not want Death Korps or any FW infantry is plastic because I don't trust GW to not ruin the proportions.
Lorewise, I would want the Guard to actually do something by themselves without necessarily being seconded to Marines. Have some new, human-led campaigns like the Macharian Crusade with the Guard as the stars and any Marines just being support.
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Post by: FunJohn
 Bobthehero wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
2) A fluff shift. Guilliman reforms all the disparate regiments and has them equipped the same. A new Imperial Army is formed, to serve alongside the Primaris on Crusade. The equipment that was previously so varied for the regiments is now used by the Planetary Defense Forces or those regiments already on campaign at the time of the new Imperial Army's muster.
The last thing we need is having the bulk of the Imperium forces being seconded to Marines, again.
Well now they are thirds. Primares > Marines > AM
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Post by: NivlacSupreme
Well I'd say Praetorians but Anvil is doing not-Praetorians this year.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
You know the whole issue around Copyrighting forcing GW to come up with alternative names for everything these days? How would that effect the classic regiments? You couldn't copyright Valhalla for example right?
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Post by: Aenarian
 Future War Cultist wrote:You know the whole issue around Copyrighting forcing GW to come up with alternative names for everything these days? How would that effect the classic regiments? You couldn't copyright Valhalla for example right?
You could probably trademark the full regimental name (Valhallan Ice Warriors, Armageddon Steel Legion, Praetorian Non-existing Guard..). But in all honesty, they'll likely just make new Cadian sculpts or a new regiment entirely.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
 Aenarian wrote:You could probably trademark the full regimental name (Valhallan Ice Warriors, Armageddon Steel Legion, Praetorian Non-existing Guard..). But in all honesty, they'll likely just make new Cadian sculpts or a new regiment entirely.
A part of me thinks they should go back to the drawing board. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Who would want the old regiments? Old vets who've been in the game for years. New players aren't going to be as hung up on them. Forge World could step in to cover that.
If it was to me, I'd do three different regiments that correspond to different infantry types. I'd have one regiment who are in elaborate uniforms with long wooden stock weapons and anarchic armour that resembles something from the early 19th century who are going to be line infantry (i.e, the Vostroyians!), then one regiment that are lightly equipped and have a sort of the whole 20th century vibe (a combination of tallarns, catacahns, fen guard types) then one final regiment who are more futuristic and sci fi looking who could be drop troopers, mechanicised, anything like that. (think cadains, Elysians...that sort of thing). Three regiments with three kits each.
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Post by: Mr Morden
A variety of unit types form different known and unknown Regiments
Male and female models
Ciaphas Cain
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Post by: Verviedi
Get the current range to be passable, first, and then add new things. There's no reason to expand the army if the core sets (infantry box, heavy weapons team, etc.) are crap.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
 Verviedi wrote:Get the current range to be passable, first, and then add new things. There's no reason to expand the army if the core sets (infantry box, heavy weapons team, etc.) are crap.
Yes, absolutely. Whatever they do, this what I think the future IG infantry kit should look like:
- 10 models, with the parts to build a vox caster and 1 of each kind of special weapon.
- the option to arm them with either lasguns or shotguns.
- There should also be a demo charge arm.
- Full options for the sergeant; las, bolt and plasma pistol, bolt gun, chain sword, power sword and maybe a power fist?
This single kit would allow you to build conscript, infantry and vet squads.
Having said that, this is only under the current system. I'd take another look at the unit entries too.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Future War Cultist wrote: Verviedi wrote:Get the current range to be passable, first, and then add new things. There's no reason to expand the army if the core sets (infantry box, heavy weapons team, etc.) are crap.
Yes, absolutely. Whatever they do, this what I think the future IG infantry kit should look like:
- 10 models, with the parts to build a vox caster and 1 of each kind of special weapon.
- the option to arm them with either lasguns or shotguns.
- There should also be a demo charge arm.
- Full options for the sergeant; las, bolt and plasma pistol, bolt gun, chain sword, power sword and maybe a power fist?
This single kit would allow you to build conscript, infantry and vet squads.
Having said that, this is only under the current system. I'd take another look at the unit entries too.
No to Conscripts.
Whatever happens, these need to become their own kit that comes with 20 models and notably less armored models.
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Post by: Aenarian
I don't really care about what they look like or what the kit includes, but I want it to include both power axes and power mauls. Other than that, the possiblity to form Veterans or other kinds of squads (e.g. Special Weapons) seems nice.
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Post by: Desubot
Would love a rag tag penal legion in plastic.
wound also love kasherkins in plastic too.
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Post by: Elbows
I'm not an Imperial Guard player and it's unlikely I could become one without a major shift from GW.
1) Ditch the boring/milquetoast Cadian aesthetic. Dump it.
2) Bring out two box squads, one box with lighter kit, and one box with great coats. Have a couple head options for each box (DKOK/Valhalla in one, Cadian/Catachan/etc. in another).
3) Bring out a quality Rough Riders plastic kit mounted on chem-horses or some slightly alienesque looking horses. See the FW DKOK for inspiration.
4) Bring back an Imperial Guard land speeder, with enough options to allow an IG force to run guardsmen+landspeeders+sentinels w/ no tanks as a fast and "okay" force.
Genuinely differentiate some of the classic IG regiments, allowing them to take different units in different slots - or restrict them from certain units, etc. I would suggest bringing back the famous captains and lieutenants form the good ole' days but that won't happen unless GW releases them all in a single plastic boxed set "Heroes of the Imperial Guard" or something. No one is going to pay $30-35+ for a single IG hero. Not gonna happen (one reason why they should seriously consider bringing back metals for genuine hero types - skip the gak resin and sell blisters for singular characters).
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Post by: ChargerIIC
Would love to see a bring back of the older regiment stuff, I see Penal legion and Militia on ebay and they would look great with a modern ascetic.
Would be nice if some of our core stuff had more options. Like an alternate main battle tank (instead of new turrets for the existing one) or an alternate line trooper (close combat troopers, jump troopers, militia, etc.)
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Post by: Polonius
I've played IG for about 15 years, and I have a huge army of Praetorians, with some Catachan support.
I voted for a whole new army, and here's why: The current plastics are just not very good, and the aesthetics they support are not very interesting. I love my Praetorians (all the old metals actually), but the most clearly 40k IG models ever made were the Vostroyans, which really balanced that historical influence with the insanity of the 40th millennium. (the RT era stuff came close at time).
I would want a new range of models that have all of the following: areas of plain old uniform/cloth, religious iconography, high tech gizmos, and basic armor plating. With GW's current ability to cram bitz onto sprues, there's zero reason the basic box couldn't include one each of the specials, full combat weapons for the sarge, a vox, and some shotguns. I'd argue that you could easily include the missile launcher as well, but if you put a few kneeling legs, it doesn't matter which sprue it's on. The next sprue will be a new heavy weapon sprue, probably done as a full squad with all the options for both. The veteran/command box could include carapace, camo cloaks, banners, med kits, heavy flamers, and anything else you need to make up officers, command squads, vets, etc.
I agree that conscripts could, and should, be a separate box set, with simplified models and reduced armor.
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Post by: General Orange
Regimental rules in the codexes. Model wise...there are enough guard like models out there to build your own regiment. And this is what I miss, having your own regiment with its fluff, and how it is represented rule wise.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
If there could only be one regiment, I'd chose vostroyians.
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
I voted old regiments being updated. New stuff is nice, but then you'd suffer the Centurion syndrome of new stuff sorta doing what the old stuff did but either better, worse, or only different in extremely niche cases (not one of which is good, since it either invalidates existing stuff, be completely useless, or just be so situational that no one takes it).
Plus there's a bazillion guard regiments that already have models. I know people who would kill for Vostroyans, Valhallans, Tallarns, Steel Legion, and non-bulgy Catachans, let alone Praetorians, Mordians, Tanith First and Only, Salvar Chem Dogs, Attlans etc. Or maybe even fabled plastic Kriegs (Imagine the ridiculous dosh GW would rake in if they introduced Dkok at the price point of cadians).
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Post by: Arandmoor
I'd re-write the IG rules to emphasize how rag-tag their forces can become, and how they rarely stay uniform after their first engagement.
Then re-build the infantry sprues to encourage mixed units, and make pieces and conversion kits for as many different styles of IG infantryman as possible.
Each sprue should have enough parts to make 10 generic guardsmen (Cadians), but also come with enough alternate pieces to make two individual soldiers from some/all of the following:
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Mordian Iron Guard
Death Korp of Kriege
Tallarn Desert Raiders
Elysian Drop Troops
Tanith First and Only
etc
Then also sell conversion boxes on the online store, or from forgeworld if you want more of one specific regiment.
Basically, if you buy 5 infantry squad boxes, you should have enough bits to make 5 squads from 5 of the different regiments, or 5 Cadian squads. With some support from Forgeworld or the GW Online store, you should be able to make an all-alternate regement with just a few additional purchases.
Then do the same thing to the IG that they did to space marines, and make with the regement-specific rules.
Cadians have leadership advantages.
Death Korp of Kriege can spend CP to bring in reinforcements.
Catachans can infiltrate, and tend to kill commissars (but get additional bonuses when they do).
Elysians can deep strike all their infantry.
etc...
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Post by: Mr Morden
There were loads of great stuff in the old lists:
Penel Battalions, Beastmen Attack Squads, Jump Pack Assault Squads, Human Bombs, bike squads, land speeders, Rhinos, back when there was more than Marines that got looked at.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Human bombs aren't coming back. Get over it.
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Post by: Strg Alt
Jesus Christ! Human bombs are the weapons of terrorists which are showcased in the news on a monthly basis. It´s appalling that somebody would even think about this as a feature in a tabletop game.
Back to topic. Old regiments in plastic or updated!
I would like to see:
- New Catachan Infantry Squad.
- Catachan Choppa. These guys don´t need a Landspeeder.
- Named Catachan characters as a special veteran squad like the dirty dozen.
GW, you can do it. Burn these Uber-Marines and get back to the Imperial Guard. ASAP!
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Post by: argonak
I'd like updated models. Especially the Cadians. The HWT and the Infantry Squad are both very old, I believe they're from 2003? The Command Squad is I think from 2008?
Yeah I'd like some new plastic infantry.
I'd also really love a refurbishment of the Leman Russ. Fix some of its glaring tank design errors (the sideskirts are the worst aspect, cannon could use a redesign, turret is too small, yadda yadda), and just generally upgrade the kit. Same with the chimera.
And new Rough Riders of course. Maybe mounted on light bikes.
A new aircraft would be nice, something less transport related, more air support. The Vulture is the obvious choice.
A light weight vehicle like the Tauros would be nice. Basically an Imperial Guard form of Ork war buggy.
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Post by: Tyel
The problem with Guard regiments is that everyone has different favourites. I guessGW could just power through - but for instance I am meh on Cadians, anti Catachans, pro Vostroyans but really don't like Tanith etc.
So a whole new Vostroyan line would prize some money from me. A Catachan line wouldn't.
Does anyone really want a £45~ kit or something equally obscene where your 10 guard have half a dozen (who missed out?) different uniforms for each model? I don't really want to pay for say 60 torsos when I am only going to use 10.
The only option as I see it is a new set of Cadian infantry and then Forgeworld sells upgrade sprues that will allow you to build the regiment that you want.
I wouldn't bet on it happening though.
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Post by: ApaceKittens
I voted None of the above, I want plastic navy kits.
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Post by: Gamgee
New higher tech regiment. Gulliman himseld said entirely new weapons of war and I don't think he will stop at Primaris. I think it's only a matter of time until we see next generation Imperil Guard weaponry.
This could get me to start the army. I mean I always liked the Guard but haven't had time to do it with so much other projects.
Gulliman is going back to the old way of organising the Imperium no reason to think he won't take some looks at how they used to be.
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Post by: argonak
 Gamgee wrote:New higher tech regiment. Gulliman himseld said entirely new weapons of war and I don't think he will stop at Primaris. I think it's only a matter of time until we see next generation Imperil Guard weaponry.
This could get me to start the army. I mean I always liked the Guard but haven't had time to do it with so much other projects.
Gulliman is going back to the old way of organising the Imperium no reason to think he won't take some looks at how they used to be.
I agree, but model and stat wise, that's already pretty much the Scions. They get the best gear and have the best training. Its only their fluff that is a bit goofy. If you just use them as a kasrkin or grenadier analog, they're great elite troops for a guard army. I've been painting up mine as kasrkin, since finding the actual kasrkin seemed like a hopeless quest.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kanluwen wrote:Simple question. Would you rather see new Regiments introduced or showcased, updated Regiments of old, a "new Imperial Army" reforged by Guilliman to cope with this new Dark Imperium?
I'm really not at all a fan of the way the "Primaris" thing has been done, like, at all, and *really* don't want to see anything similar happen with the Imperial Guard.
However, it would be neat to get a couple pages of Regiment rules, maybe a couple unique units for a few of them, basically the way most SM chapters have traditionally been handled in Codex: Space Marines. That would be neat, and a good way to use the new army construction rules.
As for new regiments, I'm not sure we really need anything new, we have tons of lines already, and most of them are neglected. Some of them are old enough that they could be rebooted and relaunched in basically the same way as an entirely new line. I'd really like to see the Steel Legion get updated personally.
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Post by: kurhanik
I'd like to see a mix of the above, though obviously all at once is too much to hope for. I'd like to see the older regiments get phased into plastic, and possibly one or two new ones crop up as well.
Make 2 boxes - a 10 man Infantry Squad kit that comes with 10 lasguns, one of each special weapon, and one of each sergeant weapon, and a Command/HWT box, that comes with 3 HWT and 2-3 models to make a company commander, a bannerman, medic, a tank commander and the like with (and possibly a few bits to spruce up other infantrymen, to help differentiate them). Basically similar to how Cadians are now, except the basic infantry one would have a decent selection of special weapons and the command and heavy weapon boxes would be combined. Spread it out with 6-12 months in between for breathing room and it might work out - at that point it would depend on if GW decided to charge some absurd amount for 10 guardsmen or if they'd keep it in line with what they are currently selling Cadians and the various metal regiments as.
If truly wishlisting, I'd love to see the old 3rd edition stormtrooper models come back. I wouldn't mind Rough Riders in some form or other either, though I'd rather see them more as a dragoon type fighter than Mongols in Space.
With all the talk of Armageddon lately (Shadow War, and the focuses they had on the community page a while back), I would love to see plastic Steel Legion more and more, though I suppose that so long as they keep selling the old metals I can live.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
You know, the kharadron Overlords code shows that it is possible to create a custom rule system. I'd use that as a base for a future IG regimental system.
I still think that they'll need 3 kits (infantry, command and heavy weapons) per regiment but as for what to do regiment wise, I just don't know. I feel like gw are going to standardise them more.
Say, what about this? One kit that can make two different types of regiments. They both share the same basic uniform, but the difference comes from the heads and the arms. One regiment has helmeted heads and their lasguns are short carbine style weapons, whilst the other regiment has a more elaborate looking hat or whatever and carry long rifle style lasguns. It could be done in the style of the skitarrii kit, except instead of ranger and vanguard heads it's two different regiment heads and instead of radium jezzils and galvanic rifles (I think?) it's two different types of lasguns. And there is still all the extras like vox casters and every kind of special weapon.
Maybe they could do this twice? Two different sets of boxes equals six kits and four regiment types. And maybe they can be compatible with each other and the Scions too for even more flexiblity. Those beret scion heads wouldn't go to waste.
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Post by: Shadox
Make a box with the options of GS-Cultists for loyalists and we're halfway there.
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Post by: MarsNZ
 Strg Alt wrote:
Jesus Christ! Human bombs are the weapons of terrorists which are showcased in the news on a monthly basis. It´s appalling that somebody would even think about this as a feature in a tabletop game.
Really? There's a faction that exists by abducting, enslaving and sadistic torture and you're going to get triggered by a suicide bomber? You know what else is in the news constantly? Air strikes on civilians. Is the existence of flyers in the game `problematic` as well?
On the topic at hand: Guardswomen. The meat grinder is an equal opportunity employer and this has never been properly reflected in the model line. Don't bling them out like every other ridiculous new release. Don't make them sluzzy fantasy soldier girls.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Yes, female IG please. They might need a new name besides guardsmen now. Guardspeople? 
Also, I had a thought about what they could do with the IG but it's controversial and I'm hesitant to even mention it for fear of starting a big fight.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
They don't have the change to Guardsmen just because women are in the army. lore wise they are already there.
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Post by: ross-128
Let's see, it's probably not going to happen, but I'd like plastics of:
Armageddon
Vostroyan
Valhallan
Mordian
Tallarn
Praetorian
Cadians and Catachans could use an update.
I'd also like to see regimental doctrines (chapter tactics for guard, basically).
I'd also like to see the following wargear options:
Lasguns for sergeants
Camo cloaks
Carapace armor
Krak grenades
Melta bombs
Searchlights
Relic plating
Dozer blade
Recovery gear
Extra armor
Fire barrels
Camo netting
Enclosed crew compartment
Auger array
Additionally, I'd like to see Veterans moved from the overcrowded Elite slot into the under-utilized Troops slot.
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Post by: Twoshoes23
I'd love to be able to get plastic tallarn. ATM have grenade launcher minis and really want plasma but modding metal minis just isn't my forte. Also would love a heavy stubber heavy weapons team crouched prone as well. I never understood why death Korp were the only one allowed to take what is essentially heavy machine guns??? Because forgeworld I guess. Also would love to get back salamander command and scout vehicles.
Lastly, one feature is for scout sentinels, vox caster equipped guardsmen, and aforementioned salamander scout vehicles be able to function with artillery in some way to boost their to hit chance as long as they have los. Competitively and narratively this would be so awesome!!!
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Post by: Future War Cultist
That's something that could be utilised by CPs. The marines have something similar in a whirlwind and landspeeder combo. I'm sure we could get the same.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Ha.......
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Post by: Commissar Benny
 Vaktathi wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Simple question. Would you rather see new Regiments introduced or showcased, updated Regiments of old, a "new Imperial Army" reforged by Guilliman to cope with this new Dark Imperium?
I'm really not at all a fan of the way the "Primaris" thing has been done, like, at all, and *really* don't want to see anything similar happen with the Imperial Guard.
^This. I cannot stress enough how big of a sh*t storm it will cause if GW tries to be lazy & combine all the regiments into some super regiment under the direction of Guilliman. Absolutely not. I'm not a fan of what they did with the primaris marines, like at all & I don't want to see it happen to the guard. Guard players find different regiments appealing. Its one of the primary reasons people play guard. Honestly, I do not know what is so hard about GW updating infantry kits for the old regiments. The "molds are expensive" excuse holds no water. 3rd party modeling companies like Anvil Industries/Victoria Miniatures release new models all the time & its a non-issue. They also generate enough profit from said molds to run a business.
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Post by: vipoid
I'd love to see some plastic Vostroyians. Something about their aesthetic always appealed to me.
Honestly though, the IG aesthetic always struck me as a little odd. Given that they're using outdated technology and frequently short of supplies and such, I'd exect them to have a more haphazard look (a bit like Orks, though probably less extreme). Like, I wouldn't expect Leman Russ to all look like they'd just rolled off a factory line - I'd expect to see mismatched panels, guns that don't quite fit, missing track wheels etc. Same with the infantry and such - I'd have though that their equipment and uniforms would be, well, less uniform.
Maybe that's just me though.
Strg Alt wrote:
Jesus Christ! Human bombs are the weapons of terrorists which are showcased in the news on a monthly basis. It´s appalling that somebody would even think about this as a feature in a tabletop game.
Those terrorists are murdering people they believe to be heretics, unbelievers, hypocrites etc., and doing it in the name of their god.
Should we also abolish Sisters of Battle, the Inquisition, Space Marines and such lest they also hit too close to home?
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
As well Orks do the same with suicide like units.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
 Commissar Benny wrote: Vaktathi wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Simple question. Would you rather see new Regiments introduced or showcased, updated Regiments of old, a "new Imperial Army" reforged by Guilliman to cope with this new Dark Imperium?
I'm really not at all a fan of the way the "Primaris" thing has been done, like, at all, and *really* don't want to see anything similar happen with the Imperial Guard.
^This. I cannot stress enough how big of a sh*t storm it will cause if GW tries to be lazy & combine all the regiments into some super regiment under the direction of Guilliman. Absolutely not. I'm not a fan of what they did with the primaris marines, like at all & I don't want to see it happen to the guard. Guard players find different regiments appealing. Its one of the primary reasons people play guard. Honestly, I do not know what is so hard about GW updating infantry kits for the old regiments. The "molds are expensive" excuse holds no water. 3rd party modeling companies like Anvil Industries/Victoria Miniatures release new models all the time & its a non-issue. They also generate enough profit from said molds to run a business.
Ah, then you wouldn't like my idea. It was sort of...a little bit of both. 
But yeah, looking through the space marine range, they get seperate kits just for different armour types. Honestly, GW could probably afford to run several different types of regiments at once.
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Post by: Lemondish
Space Marines are a boatload more popular than Guard, though, so I imagine supporting multiple different regiments at once would be less viable. Not impossible, of course. Just...less likely? Just my perspective.
My question is, with Cadia now gone kaplewy, will the Cadian models remain the premiere AM units going forward? Will we see a new regiment directed by Rowboat Grundleman chosen from another world start to take centre stage? Has there been anything in the fluff to suggest a shake up for the Guard?
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Catch 22. The IG aren't supported as well as they could be miniature wise and so don't sell well. This prompts gw to think that people aren't interested in them and thus pull back on fully supporting them. That's my theory anyway.
And I think it'll be an all new regiment.
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Post by: ross-128
Technically the whole Imperium is using "outdated technology". If you could get some *really* old tech from the Age of Technology it would be leagues better than anything the Imperium uses currently.
But they're not rag-tag at all, unless they're Catachans (who are deliberately an army of Rambos). Imperial Guard regiments are a professional army that, most of the time, is quite well supplied. Their stuff, within the regiment, is standardized and mass-produced. They are the standard armed forces of the Imperium, just like the standing armies of any modern nation. We're not talking about Bubba and his uncle Jim-Bob rustling up some planetary militia here.
Edit:
Also, player-wise Imperial Guard are almost even with Space Marines. They're a very close third for player-base, right behind Chaos who are almost dead-even (though that's all of Chaos, if you split Daemons and CSM their numbers drop dramatically). The only way Space Marines would be "boatloads" more popular is if you lump Chaos and Space Marines together.
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Post by: UrsoerTheSquid
I'd love to see some of the ideas presented here. But I'm kinda against the mega kits that have the options to build anything! The price of that than kit would be ludicrous. You'll build what you want, then you are left with a pile of useless bitz that you can try to sell but will most likely end up in the bone yard as I like to call it. I already find the heavy weapon team kit too expensive. I'd like to see the option of blister packs again for units like HW teams where I can by one of something.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
I'd hate a mega kit. Personally, just make things cheaper and a wider range that incorporates buy individual bit as well like so many other companies do.
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Post by: Hive City Dweller
I would love a ground up redesign of basic IG troop kits to include more ornate/Gothic elements and not just look like starship troopers cos players. Give us something grimdark and unique, chalk full of detail and they will sell like hotcakes. Imagine how easy it can be:
1) New infantry kit of 10 guardsman/veterans alternates
2) New HWT with multiple weapon options
3) New Command Squad kit with options for Company and platoon commanders.
4) Vehicle upgrade sprue with crew and decorative bits
Boom! 4 kits; you get to sell those and you get to sell the rest of your range which includes 7 different types of tank, the Valkyrie, the Taurox, the sentinel, the scions kit and the ogryn kit. Seems incredibly straight forward and intuitive to do, and it's a smaller release than most one month releases.
Having said that I would give an arm and a leg for plastic Vostroyans, alas I don't see it happening anytime soon.
 
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Personally Mordians and Praetorians are what I'd like to see in plastic. I don't like Vostroyans. It is a shame that Valhallans dont have plastic, they were actually the first guard regiment created by GW.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I'd much rather see something akin to this become the standard fare for Guard.
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Post by: Bobthehero
http://orig05.deviantart.net/5231/f/2009/012/0/d/imperial_guard_stormtrooper_by_robban_o.jpg
Or something like that, I quite like the new Scions, but I wouldn't spit on something tacticool, either
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bobthehero wrote: Or something like that, I quite like the new Scions, but I wouldn't spit on something tacticool, either
The whole point that I've tried to drive home, in regards to a "new Imperial Army" is that we'd likely see an entire range revamp from the ground up. New infantry, new heavy weapons, maybe even a new set-up for how our officers and their ilk are designed to function. I think that the Scions, as a faction, could be left with the more ornate look to tie them as kind of a halfway point between the Officio Prefectus and the Astra Militarum at large.
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Post by: Hive City Dweller
The whole point that I've tried to drive home, in regards to a "new Imperial Army" is that we'd likely see an entire range revamp from the ground up.
New infantry, new heavy weapons, maybe even a new set-up for how our officers and their ilk are designed to function.
I think that the Scions, as a faction, could be left with the more ornate look to tie them as kind of a halfway point between the Officio Prefectus and the Astra Militarum at large.
I sure hope you're right! Would for sure get me fully committed to a guard army again; just can't stomach to paint any more Cadian bobble-heads from the current range.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Kanluwen wrote: Bobthehero wrote:
Or something like that, I quite like the new Scions, but I wouldn't spit on something tacticool, either
The whole point that I've tried to drive home, in regards to a "new Imperial Army" is that we'd likely see an entire range revamp from the ground up.
New infantry, new heavy weapons, maybe even a new set-up for how our officers and their ilk are designed to function.
I think that the Scions, as a faction, could be left with the more ornate look to tie them as kind of a halfway point between the Officio Prefectus and the Astra Militarum at large.
I can't stomach that pic, looks too much like a Scion.
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Post by: crimsondave
I want rules for creating your own regiment, including custom characters. I have modeled my guard on Cadians with custom heads and some weapons, but I have to run them as Cadians by the rules.
Also, they need to pick at least a few regiments and offer new plastic kits. IG has received so little attention there is no need to start over from scratch. Plenty of room to grow as is.
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Post by: Bobthehero
NenkotaMoon wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Bobthehero wrote:
Or something like that, I quite like the new Scions, but I wouldn't spit on something tacticool, either
The whole point that I've tried to drive home, in regards to a "new Imperial Army" is that we'd likely see an entire range revamp from the ground up.
New infantry, new heavy weapons, maybe even a new set-up for how our officers and their ilk are designed to function.
I think that the Scions, as a faction, could be left with the more ornate look to tie them as kind of a halfway point between the Officio Prefectus and the Astra Militarum at large.
I can't stomach that pic, looks too much like a Scion.
It is, but remove the faceplate, the tubing and tweak the backpack a bit, and it would make for a very fine Guardsman, I think.
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Post by: ross-128
Eh, too busy if you ask me. I like the relatively simple uniforms that standard guardsmen tend to have.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
 ross-128 wrote:Eh, too busy if you ask me. I like the relatively simple uniforms that standard guardsmen tend to have.
Same, way too busy and too digging into the Scion look, a look I don't care for.
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Post by: Commissar Benny
Future War Cultist wrote:Catch 22. The IG aren't supported as well as they could be miniature wise and so don't sell well. This prompts gw to think that people aren't interested in them and thus pull back on fully supporting them. That's my theory anyway.
And I think it'll be an all new regiment.
This is correct. Its the same for Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar & many other armies. It should come as no surprise to anyone, that when entire armies are ignored for decades that they will not be popular as space marines. Supposedly the "New GW" is different, but that remains to be seen. Almost every release has been space marines. For an IP that is as vast & interesting as 40K is, GW goes out of its way to ignore most of the setting.
Edit: Also, choosing Catachans as one of the primary regiments to stock in stores? Who's brilliant idea was that? I love Catachans don't get me wrong, but " imo" they are the hardest army to paint in all of 40k. All skin, human so naturally everyone is going to be more critical of the paint job because they reference real life, need to add things like scars/tattoos. Its an absolute nightmare for new players getting into the hobby. I was interested in Catachan & chose Steel Legion instead largely because of how easy it is to paint them. Almost all trench coat, no skin.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Maybe it's time for forge world to step up to the mark. A lot of the things they make have now transferred to plastic. They should look for a new line. I think they could make models for those classic regiments who can't be supported in plastic. They kind of already do for the Tallarns, though not enough to make a full army. Not to mention extra Cadian bits. And the resin would probably work out even better for them detail wise.
Imagine forge world quality Catachans, Tallarns, Vahallans and Mordians in addition to the death korps and Elysians? It would be beautiful!
But again, if there could be only one plastic regiment I'd vote vostroyians. They're probably the most 40kish IG there is. I was blown away by them when they were first released. The only thing stopping me collecting them is the incomplete metal range. You can keep the cadians in plastic because they have an (almost) full range. Just push them gently into the background like old marines.
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Post by: Strg Alt
 MarsNZ wrote: Strg Alt wrote:
Jesus Christ! Human bombs are the weapons of terrorists which are showcased in the news on a monthly basis. It´s appalling that somebody would even think about this as a feature in a tabletop game.
Really? There's a faction that exists by abducting, enslaving and sadistic torture and you're going to get triggered by a suicide bomber? You know what else is in the news constantly? Air strikes on civilians. Is the existence of flyers in the game `problematic` as well?
On the topic at hand: Guardswomen. The meat grinder is an equal opportunity employer and this has never been properly reflected in the model line. Don't bling them out like every other ridiculous new release. Don't make them sluzzy fantasy soldier girls.
40K is a wargame with emphasis on game. There is no blood, mutilations or deaths invioved. Models are simply removed from play and are ready to go for the next battle which are fought between two military forces.
Suicide bombers on the other hand are not deployed by the military. They are used against civilians to sow terror and would drag the carefree gaming experience with their very existence into the mud.
Do you really think GW would sell models of bearded human bombs with wicked smiles on their faces? I guess not. Would mommy buy them for little Timmy? Nope! GW will never sell such stupid gak.
And if they did which Imperial Guard regiment should deploy them? It´an utterly barabric tactic.
This human bomb topic can also be applied to all other alien races. Would it be okay, if grots were deployed as human bombs? No, they are still humanoids and as such can be related to. In 3rd grots were used to clear minefields by running into them. This might sound at first like a hilarious Tom & Jerry or Road Runner cartoon but when you see this scene in John Rambo (2008) you are appalled by it. Nobody was surprised when GW deleted this special rule in the following ork codex.
The Dark Eldar models just fight like all other models on the battlefield. The aforementioned atrocities are only hinted at in the codex. You don´t see any illustrations in the book that depict these horrible scenes either. Remember, this game is for twelve year olds. But these space pirates would cross the line, if you are modelling them to show off scenes of executions, rape, mutilations, torture and other vile stuff. Nobody would play against you with such a ghastly collection of minis. Other horrible stuff would be Imperial Guard covered in swastikas. This is simply a no-go.
The rules don´t allow flyers to crash into towers and as such they are fine.
Air strikes are a common military tactic against military targets. They are only the center of public outrage when used against civilians and these incidents are pretty uncommon today. Terrorists don´t have access to expensive military hardware and as such airstrikes don´t pose a problem at all as they don´t have a bad reputation.
No civilians are bombed in 40K. Again, GW would never allow such a thing to happen on the tabletop.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Primaris lasgun, that is S4.
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Post by: Kanluwen
It's this:
This art's been floating around for a bit from the most recent Imperial Knights book.
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Post by: Aenarian
A man can dream that it's not a darn lascannon for the Space Marines, can't he?
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Post by: Verviedi
Yes, you are permitted to dream, as long as you ignore the fact that it is likely for a new kind of Space Marine that has Lasguns.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
No kidding. It'll be Space Marine, and they'll have "The Hottest Shot" lasguns at Rapid Fire d3 Str 5 AP0 D2.
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Post by: ross-128
 Unit1126PLL wrote:No kidding. It'll be Space Marine, and they'll have "The Hottest Shot" lasguns at Rapid Fire d3 Str 5 AP0 D2.
Clearly if it's based on hot-shots, the Space Marine version would also be AP-3 and a 36" range.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
I sincerely hope that's the first glimpse of a new regiment. It seems to be a remake of the classic Ryza pattern lasgun.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
A new regiment when they barely support the ones they have now.
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Post by: AtoMaki
Smells like Primaris Guard( tm) for me !
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Post by: daedalus
They're Primaris Guardsmen. They're super well trained, and have genetic manipulation and cybernetics to make themselves larger. They also wear heavier armor than regular humans normally do. I hear they're going to be organized into regiments of a thousand strong.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
They look like Cadians done right! I'd be cool with them!
EDIT: having said that, I wa hoping they'd go further.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Am I the only only that gets a Scion/Kasrkin feel from those guys?
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Possibly yes.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
I could see that, though I'd be VERY surprised, since they redid Tempestus like, yesterday.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
Vox casters that make orders unlimited range if the receiving unit has one as well. If they can communicate with a ship in orbit they can surely give orders anywhere on the relatively small battlefield represented by a 6x4.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Unit1126PLL wrote:I could see that, though I'd be VERY surprised, since they redid Tempestus like, yesterday.
I know, its why I doubt they made what's in the picture, personally.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Yeah those Scions are way too new to ditch. Then again, stranger things have happened.
And this is a minor detail but please for the love of god allow sergeants to carry lasguns. It really bugs the hole of me that they can't.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Nope. There's art from older books that actually is similar to that which labels them as Kasrkin even.
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Post by: Stormonu
Moar tanks and vehicles. I'd like to see some wheeled and repulsor vehicles, maybe a scout tank or two, and exosuits for the basic troops (making exosuits akin to guardsmen as terminators are to marines).
I'd also like to see distinctive regiment rules or strategms. Not things like "you can take X unit as type Y or you can't use Z unit, but something like Regiment A can give these special orders to tanks or "once per game you can use Saturation Salvos with Baskilisks" or somesuch.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
 Stormonu wrote:Moar tanks and vehicles. I'd like to see some wheeled and repulsor vehicles, maybe a scout tank or two, and exosuits for the basic troops (making exosuits akin to guardsmen as terminators are to marines).
I'd also like to see distinctive regiment rules or strategms. Not things like "you can take X unit as type Y or you can't use Z unit, but something like Regiment A can give these special orders to tanks or "once per game you can use Saturation Salvos with Baskilisks" or somesuch.
Yes! See apparently terminator armour was created from heavy engineering rigs. Were are these rigs? Why aren't they more common? It's probably funny that I think that the centurion armour actually would have been better suited for the IG. At least you wouldn't have the issue of xzibit jokes.
I would have made them really slow, with massive firepower but they're clumsy in close combat.
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Post by: Panzergraf
I just want them to make the Vanquisher great again.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
Plastic Steel Legion, a bit modernised and with more gubbinz.
Rebreather galore with skulls well placed.
DKK are going out of production, so is time.
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Post by: crimsondave
Future War Cultist wrote:Yeah those Scions are way too new to ditch. Then again, stranger things have happened.
And this is a minor detail but please for the love of god allow sergeants to carry lasguns. It really bugs the hole of me that they can't.
It's not minor to me! It's stupid, and I'm with you 100%!
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Post by: argonak
Future War Cultist wrote:Yeah those Scions are way too new to ditch. Then again, stranger things have happened.
And this is a minor detail but please for the love of god allow sergeants to carry lasguns. It really bugs the hole of me that they can't.
Yeah I agree. I've been giving mine boltguns just so they can shoot like they should be.
I like the simple non-gothic look of Cadians. I think they look great, they just need new models. I don't need them to be decked out in skulls and pointless gribbly details. Put that on the sprue so I can pick and choose what I add.
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Post by: Arandmoor
More IG special forces units.
Not Scions. Scions are just the brain-washed, hypno-trained, 'roid-raging, unwanted children of the Imperial elite, armed with the best gear money can buy because great-grand-daddy paid for a new battleship once upon a time.
I mean the earned-by-merit, "I used to be a baker before I was randomly drafted and found out I was good at killing", 100% bad-ass special forces. Not mere veterans that have "been around the block a few times".
Not the "we're all super-soldiers" space marines.
The men and women that volunteer for the most dangerous jobs the IG can throw them at because they want to be there.
The Deathwatch of IG.
Veterans with a smorgasbord of options and special rules that you either effectively leverage or get tabled turn 2.
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Post by: argonak
 Arandmoor wrote:More IG special forces units.
Not Scions. Scions are just the brain-washed, hypno-trained, 'roid-raging, unwanted children of the Imperial elite, armed with the best gear money can buy because great-grand-daddy paid for a new battleship once upon a time.
I mean the earned-by-merit, "I used to be a baker before I was randomly drafted and found out I was good at killing", 100% bad-ass special forces. Not mere veterans that have "been around the block a few times".
Not the "we're all super-soldiers" space marines.
The men and women that volunteer for the most dangerous jobs the IG can throw them at because they want to be there.
The Deathwatch of IG.
Veterans with a smorgasbord of options and special rules that you either effectively leverage or get tabled turn 2.
Well that's basically the kasrkin. I mod my scions a bit and just paint them up in the kasrkin motif. I don't much care for the whole Schola fluff anyway. Its just too over the top grim dark for me.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Personally my fluff has both Scions from the Schola and veterans trained up to their standards and equipped properly.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
Bobthehero wrote:Personally my fluff has both Scions from the Schola and veterans trained up to their standards and equipped properly.
Same. Scion fluff is pretty meh, but is easy to fluff them as paratroopers veteran or something.
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Post by: argonak
 Kaiyanwang wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Personally my fluff has both Scions from the Schola and veterans trained up to their standards and equipped properly.
Same. Scion fluff is pretty meh, but is easy to fluff them as paratroopers veteran or something.
I do wish their backpacks came with a grav chute option. Especially since deep strike is one of their primary functions now.
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Post by: Aenarian
What the hell? Where have you heard this?
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Post by: Future War Cultist
@ crimsondave & argonak
Fistbump. 
I've got two other quibbles. Regular unarmoured Ogyrns probably need to be repurposed into a proper shooting unit. Bulgyrns have them beat in all regards at present. All you'd have to do is increase the range of ripper guns to about 24" and hey presto, done. The modern ripper gun looks more like a machine gun than a shotgun to me anyway. Perhaps they should also be changed to rapid fire 2 or even 3 while we're at it.
The other quibble; Scions are better than they've ever been. Maybe slightly too good. I would tweak them so that they can only carry 1 special for every 5 men, but to make up for it hot shot weapons have their range increased by 6". Now they can rapid fire after deep striking.
Vets however! Stay in elites, and come in squads of 5-10. Can replace their lasguns with shotguns and/or las pistols with chainswords. 2 in 5 guys get access to specials. Make them look like standard issue is never standard.
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Post by: Freddy Kruger
I'd personally like the reintroduction of the 4 main, currently OoP Imperial Guard regiments: Praetorian Guard, Mordian Guard, Tallarn Desert Raiders and Valhalan Ice Troopers.
I'd chuck the Armageddon Steel Legion in there too, so 5.
An update would be good, with more modeling options. Essentially you'd only require new squad box, heavy weapon team box, command squad box - more than enough. Special weapons could be finecast or options in the boxes. Vehicles can maybe have some upgrade sprues released (like the genestealer cults have).
Hopefully, we'll see them some time in 2018. I've resigned 2017 to be Primaris Marines and Codex focused. Please GeeDubs, hear our cries!
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Post by: vonjankmon
Another regiment or two would be nice just so there was a bit more diversity in IG. Plenty of good suggestions about that above.
One thing I would really like to see are more fast attack options. Hell Hounds, Rough Riders, and Sentinels are actually all decent choices but it doesn't really feel like we have much choice in the realm of fast attack. Wasn't as bad when Vendetta's and Valkyries counted towards that but now it just seems very limiting.
Maybe something like that little shuttle craft looking flyer that Forge World used to have Arvus Lifter or something like that. Maybe that with a squad of drop troop kind of guys. Or hell bring out a non forgeworld model for the Hades Breaching Drill, with it's deep strike rule it could be considered a fast attack even though it is listed as an Elite right now.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
Where are the grenadiers?
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Post by: Aenarian
I've only heard that the mold/mould has sustained damage and I guess that Forge World has had very little time to actually fix it. It makes no sense to scrap one of their best selling lines when they still have others they could axe, especially as they already seem to have removed from of the least selling kits. Anyway, I'll send a mail and ask.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
Aenarian wrote:
I've only heard that the mold/mould has sustained damage and I guess that Forge World has had very little time to actually fix it. It makes no sense to scrap one of their best selling lines when they still have others they could axe, especially as they already seem to have removed from of the least selling kits.
Anyway, I'll send a mail and ask.
They have to put out moar marines. Counts as OOP for me.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kaiyanwang wrote: Aenarian wrote:
I've only heard that the mold/mould has sustained damage and I guess that Forge World has had very little time to actually fix it. It makes no sense to scrap one of their best selling lines when they still have others they could axe, especially as they already seem to have removed from of the least selling kits.
Anyway, I'll send a mail and ask.
They have to put out moar marines. Counts as OOP for me.
So basically, to sum up:
You know nothing definitive and you're making an assumption based upon a silly idea that models previewed months back have somehow made it so that they'll never be fixed or replaced.
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Post by: Gunzhard
I'm the biggest fanboy of GW models - but their muscle-bare-faced guys are always terrible...
I want good looking, new Catachan stuff. I will buy the crap out of that when it finally comes...
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
Kanluwen wrote:
So basically, to sum up:
You know nothing definitive and you're making an assumption based upon a silly idea that models previewed months back have somehow made it so that they'll never be fixed or replaced.
"Assumptions"
Look at how much IG stuff is OOP now.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kaiyanwang wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
So basically, to sum up:
You know nothing definitive and you're making an assumption based upon a silly idea that models previewed months back have somehow made it so that they'll never be fixed or replaced.
"Assumptions"
Look at how much IG stuff is OOP now.
And look how much isn't.
There was, a few months back, panic over the DKoK squads going unavailable from FW--yet now they're back for sale.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
How do people feel about the power cables on hotshot lasguns? I've never been 100% on them. They look like they'd get caught on gak.
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Post by: Aenarian
A lot of the stuff is OOP. I asked about the HWT variants, and they were definitely gone according to the guy in customer service. I would not be that worried about the better selling stuff (DKoK infantry squads firing and advancing, grenadiers, engineers...), but some less popular variants will probably be going if they're not already gone.
Without knowing actual sales figures, there are probably quite a lot of products which are less popular than the beloved Death Korps and at least some of those will be removed first.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Future War Cultist wrote:How do people feel about the power cables on hotshot lasguns? I've never been 100% on them. They look like they'd get caught on gak.
Power cables are basically the key thing that separates Hellguns(what are now, again, being referred to as "hot-shot lasguns" despite yeeeeears of fluff specifically attempting to separate hot-shots into actually being a type of battery for a lasgun rather than a lasgun variant in and of itself) from a Lasgun.
The power cables are tied to the backpack, which not only provides power but has a cooling system. Hence the two cables--one for power flow, one for coolant.
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Post by: vipoid
Whether or not they're practical, I like the aesthetic of the cables.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Same, although I imagine they can have packs in case the cables break, hence why I usually put ammo packs on my Stormtroopers.
As for hotshots/hellguns, the Index confirms they're both the same weapons now.
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Post by: Lord Castellan
20-model boxes.
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Post by: Strg Alt
Excellent joke. You should expect 5-man boxes for the price of 20-man boxes and an assortment of unnecessary bling for your soldiers.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Strg Alt wrote:
Excellent joke. You should expect 5-man boxes for the price of 20-man boxes and an assortment of unnecessary bling for your soldiers.
10 model Reiver box says "Sup".
5 man minimum squad, a full squad comes out to 10. It includes parts to make multiple Sergeants as well.
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Post by: argonak
Future War Cultist wrote:How do people feel about the power cables on hotshot lasguns? I've never been 100% on them. They look like they'd get caught on gak.
I don't mind the power cables, but I do mind the extended barrels on what are essentially carbines. I cut the midsection out of my Scion's HSLGs and I think they look way better, more like special forces weapons. I also remove the thigh plates from their breast plates, and again I think it really improves their look. Even though their armor is still baroque, they don't look like they belong on the battle of Agincourt anymore.
What I'm really tempted to do though, is start switching out their chest pieces for normal cadian chests, and use their fancy armor torso for rough riders. Then they'd just need plumed helms and they'd be set to go as Cuirassiers. But then I can't make up my mind as to whether rough riders should be on bikes or horses, either.
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Post by: Bobthehero
I don't mind the big barrels, fits with the equally large scope, cutting down the barrel just makes them ridiculously too large.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
I wish they'd just sell us bits.
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Post by: ross-128
Here's an amusing idea for a new fast-attack option: a Chimera Gun Carrier.
The idea is pretty much based on the Stryker mobile gun system. Take an APC/IFV, rip out the passenger seats, and cram a tank cannon into it. It's a Chimera chassis that can use LRBT turret weapons and fire them on the move to act as a light tank. Give it the option to take a twin missile launcher too, because why not.
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
argonak wrote: Future War Cultist wrote:How do people feel about the power cables on hotshot lasguns? I've never been 100% on them. They look like they'd get caught on gak.
I don't mind the power cables, but I do mind the extended barrels on what are essentially carbines. I cut the midsection out of my Scion's HSLGs and I think they look way better, more like special forces weapons. I also remove the thigh plates from their breast plates, and again I think it really improves their look. Even though their armor is still baroque, they don't look like they belong on the battle of Agincourt anymore.
What I'm really tempted to do though, is start switching out their chest pieces for normal cadian chests, and use their fancy armor torso for rough riders. Then they'd just need plumed helms and they'd be set to go as Cuirassiers. But then I can't make up my mind as to whether rough riders should be on bikes or horses, either.
Stormtroopers with ordinary Cadian bits works out pretty well.
I'd also like to see the towed artillery available to everyone, the return of Medusa Siege Guns and Griffon Mortars, and Macharius Tanks as heavy support options.
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Post by: SYKOJAK
Personally, I would like some new toys that I don't have to pay an arm and a leg for. Guardsmen on bikes anyone?
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Post by: ross-128
Somewhat silly idea: quad heavy stubber turret. Yes, you can still take a pintle heavy stubber.
109357
Post by: NenkotaMoon
ross-128 wrote:Here's an amusing idea for a new fast-attack option: a Chimera Gun Carrier.
The idea is pretty much based on the Stryker mobile gun system. Take an APC/IFV, rip out the passenger seats, and cram a tank cannon into it. It's a Chimera chassis that can use LRBT turret weapons and fire them on the move to act as a light tank. Give it the option to take a twin missile launcher too, because why not.
I'd love this so much. Give us some nice new toys. Heck, re purposing existing models with new options would be a great idea, on top of being cheap for GW, because you know, why invest money in something not SPACE MARRREEEENNNNNZZZZZZ.
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Post by: Merellin
I would like to see either one or a couple of the old metal regiments updated in plastic (Aspecialy Vostroyans and Steel Legion), Or a compleately new regiment. Just.. Plastic Guardsmen who arent Cadians or Catachans please.
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Post by: AtoMaki
ross-128 wrote:Here's an amusing idea for a new fast-attack option: a Chimera Gun Carrier.
The idea is pretty much based on the Stryker mobile gun system. Take an APC/IFV, rip out the passenger seats, and cram a tank cannon into it. It's a Chimera chassis that can use LRBT turret weapons and fire them on the move to act as a light tank. Give it the option to take a twin missile launcher too, because why not.
This was actually a thing in the past: the Chimedon was a Chimera with a battle cannon, while the Chimerro was a Chimera with loadsa missiles. Like this:
Left is the Chimedon and the middle is the Chimerro.
101511
Post by: Future War Cultist
The Chimedon as a fast attack option with a hellhounds speed and all the regular Russ turret weapons (maybe even the siege versions too) sounds good to me! Also the version with the autocannons was called a chimerax, but the hydra would probably do its job better.
Personally I'd love to see the vulture become mainstream too. The Valkyrie makes a good transporter in the guise of a black hawk, but we could always use an apache. 
Heavy support wise we're in good shape. If they just created a new balisilk kit that could also be assembled as a medusa (or medusa like vehicle) then I'd be fully content. Five seperate HS choice kits is good enough for me.
83902
Post by: Aenarian
Well, about the DKoK Grenadiers:
Thank you for contacting us about DKK Grenadier Squad. As you've seen, we have recently removed several product from the Forge World web store that have been out of stock for some time. All of these products will need substantial work for us to be able to produce them again.
We hope to have many of these products back on sale in the future. Unfortunately we don't yet have a timescale for this work.
Compare this to the answer I got when asking about alternative HWT:
Thank you for your email. After carrying out a range review, the alternate DKK Heavy Weapons teams were discontinued and removed from the web store once the last of the stock of them had sold out. The reason we did this was that they just did not sell over a period of several years, and we only have a finite space in our warehouse for better selling and for new kits we release.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Aenarian wrote:Thank you for your email. After carrying out a range review, the alternate DKK Heavy Weapons teams were discontinued and removed from the web store once the last of the stock of them had sold out. The reason we did this was that they just did not sell over a period of several years, and we only have a finite space in our warehouse for better selling and for new kits we release.
And I'm sure it's no coincidence that the HWTs were one of FW's experiments with "we swear it's not finecast, really, even though it's exactly like finecast" and seemed to still have casting problems from the finecast molds even once FW went back to doing them in real resin. No coincidence at all that it's one of the cases where the recasters are making a superior product, it must be lack of demand for a range of kits that are pretty essential in doing a DKoK army.
Edit: or not? Most of the HWTs still seem to be there, and it's only the ones that were modeled towing or assembling the guns that have been removed? In that case I can believe that there was pretty low demand for them, as even if you like the pose it's going to be kind of awkward to fit into the rest of your army or do multiple copies of it.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
These alternative HWTs. Are they a certain weapon like the twin heavy stubbed or a certain pose like the running forward with weapon team? Sorry if this question is kinda vague.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Future War Cultist wrote:These alternative HWTs. Are they a certain weapon like the twin heavy stubbed or a certain pose like the running forward with weapon team? Sorry if this question is kinda vague.
Apparently the running/towing ones, as the conventional AC/ LC/etc ones are still there. Hopefully this means they're still in normal stock, and FW hasn't discontinued them as well.
101511
Post by: Future War Cultist
Ah I see. Pity, I liked those, but if they aren't selling well...business is business. Thank you for replying.
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Post by: Aenarian
Yeah, I was talking about the alternative poses. Mind you, the HWT question was answered 7th of June, so if they were to be discontinued, they might have done so by now, which apparently is not the case. It's probably just a case of "We have 3 variants of the same thing, and 2 of them aren't selling at all. Let's remove them and keep the 1."
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Post by: Shiro-chan
I would like to see old Regiments in plastic. I always loved Steel Legion and Vostroyans, and I'd consider getting at least a bunch of one of those if they were all-new high quality plastic ranges. Death Korps of Krieg in plastic would be awesome, too.
I also want to see a second troop box, and maybe commisar/command boxes with female soldiers. The lore makes it pretty clear that everyone gets conscripted (makes sense in a galactic total war) who can aim a gun, so it makes no sense that the Imperial Guard, unlike various alien factions, doesn't have female soldiers. I want to see them in a second box so people could choose freely - all male, all female or mixed - the current boxes for, say, Dark Eldar are mixed, but that makes it harder for some people who just want one thing (I knew a girl who only wanted DE Scourges with feather wings, for example).
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Post by: argonak
I've been thinking, and I'd love to have a unit of scions with jump packs. It could replace their option for deep striking (so they'd have jump pack insertion just like marines), and be a fast moving unit for IG. They could also go into the fast attack slot, something IG is rather weak on.
40344
Post by: master of ordinance
People to stop whining about Conscripts. Seriously, stop it. I know they are tough to wipe out in a single turn, but what else did you expect 50 bodies to do? Oh wait, the whiners are SM/Eldar/Tau players whom got too used to the concept of deleting entire armies in a couple of turns. Sorry, I know that this is not the place for it. Just the whiners in the other thread are really getting to me. It feels like we are being persecuted for daring to be equals to their factions. --------------------- Anyway, chalk me down for some new infantry that do not look like gorillas in uniform or army of Rambo, and make them affordable at that. £20 for ten bods is ridiculous. And a new tank. something like a Medum tank. Faster and more mobile than the Russ but not as tough. Some carriage based artillery would be nice too. Getting rid of the Taurox would also suit me
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Post by: argonak
 master of ordinance wrote:People to stop whining about Conscripts. Seriously, stop it. I know they are tough to wipe out in a single turn, but what else did you expect 50 bodies to do?
Oh wait, the whiners are SM/Eldar/Tau players whom got too used to the concept of deleting entire armies in a couple of turns.
Sorry, I know that this is not the place for it. Just the whiners in the other thread are really getting to me. It feels like we are being persecuted for daring to be equals to their factions.
---------------------
Anyway, chalk me down for some new infantry that do not look like gorillas in uniform or army of Rambo, and make them affordable at that. £20 for ten bods is ridiculous.
And a new tank. something like a Medum tank. Faster and more mobile than the Russ but not as tough.
Some carriage based artillery would be nice too.
Getting rid of the Taurox would also suit me
Hey I like my Taurox. I put Victoria miniature wheels on them and they look awesome now. I need to get a pic, although its only basecoated so far.
Also, dude. Conscript thread, -------> that way.
Also, just stop engaging them. It'll make you feel a lot better. This isn't a hill you need to die on, you're not actually in the IG.
92543
Post by: Binabik15
Plastic greatcoat soldiers. Plastic rough riders, preferably with bits to make horses with masks or chem-implants. Parts easily interchangable with the Skitarii and Neophytes and hopefully all other upcoming "humans" kits - at least scale if not joints. Maybe plastic scout tanks like Cain's favourite Salamander.
PS: And yes, 20 men boxes back. And reduce Sentinels from their bonkers price point.
101511
Post by: Future War Cultist
A part of me thinks that vahallans should definitely be made into plastic on account of them being the first regiment GW created (apparently). I wonder if it's possible, with a few tweaks to their design, to make one kit that could be assembled as both Valhallans and Steel Legion. Both are great coat wearing regiments, and their helmets aren't too far off each other either.
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Post by: Bobthehero
The gasmask might be a bit of an issue, since its usually linked to the torso.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I guess not then.
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Post by: Bobthehero
I guess you could have heads and torso in one piece, with the legs being shared, but that's about it.
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Post by: vipoid
 argonak wrote:I've been thinking, and I'd love to have a unit of scions with jump packs. It could replace their option for deep striking (so they'd have jump pack insertion just like marines), and be a fast moving unit for IG. They could also go into the fast attack slot, something IG is rather weak on.
I'd be in favour of this. Right now the only infantry we've got in FA is Rough Riders, so it would be nice to have some more non-vehicles there as well.
I'd also like to see a second infantry option in Heavy Support.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
I think Scions should go the whole hog and receive a lot of the bonuses Primarus Marine Reviers receive. They've already got the grav chute ability. They should also receive the same bonus granted by the grappling hooks. And dare I say it, but access to shock grenades too?
What I'm saying is, what the reavers do for the marines the Scions should do for the guard.
105531
Post by: Chris521
I would love to see a bit of an overhaul of the Leman Russ platform. Here are my ideas.
First off, I want lumbering behemoth so they can be used as a proper weapons platform. This would also apply to all of the bigger tanks as well, though the Baneblades would probably need to be a bit more expensive.
Next, I would like the commissar tank to be added back in as well as having a veteran tank upgrade (simply +1 BS).
I would then change some of the turret weapons. Some of these weapons would certainly need to be a bit more expensive.
Battle cannon: keep the same but a little cheaper. I’m envisioning this as the weakest but cheap option.
Punisher cannon: fine as is
Demolisher Cannon: fine (but perhaps a small points reduction)
Vanquisher: Make it Heavy d3. A single shot from this tank has been a problem even before this edition. I would consider giveing it a rule to make all of the shots apply to a single target. This would stop this weapons from turning into something more than an armor/monster killer .
Eradicator Cannon: Maybe make it Heavy 2d6. Seems fluffy in that its supposed to be a huge explosion. I’m not really sure if the d3 damage would stay as is. This would separate it from the other blast weapons into it’s own niche instead of being a worse battle cannon
Exterminator: Many people were expecting this to be heavy 8 before it came out. 8 may be pushing it, but Heavy 6 could put it in a good spot.
Executioner: This weapon doesn’t necessarily need a buff, but to differentiate it from the battle cannon I would make it Heavy 3d3. This would also put it back to those 3 blasts that it used to have. (this weapon in particular would need a cost increase)
Finally, instead of a flat points reduction to the platform, I would spread it out. The standard russ could be 10 points cheaper while pask could be 10-15 points more expensive. Tank commanders would split the difference by staying the same.
It could look like this:
Russ 122 points
Veteran 147 point
Commissar 157 points
Commander 167
Pask 187
The Leman Russ platform could be so versatile if GW would just let it. Have a box with a gun on it for like 140 points or spend 250+ points arming Pask to the teeth.
Frankly I would happily take a 1 point increase to conscripts and guardsman as well as some point increases for scions and plasma guns in return for an overhaul like this
Moving on from the Russ, those old chimeras with the weapons are really cool. I would love some Hellhound like tanks with some more weapon variety.
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Post by: vipoid
Do you really think guardsmen need a price-hike?
105531
Post by: Chris521
I was only trying to keep it consistent with a conscript hike. The real point was that I'm trying help the Russ, not buff the guard.
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Post by: vipoid
 Chris521 wrote:
I was only trying to keep it consistent with a conscript hike. The real point was that I'm trying help the Russ, not buff the guard.
It seems wrong to buff one area at the expense of unnecessary nerfs elsewhere though.
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Post by: pismakron
Leman Russ needs a buff and Conscripts + plasma-scions needs a whack with the nerf-bat. The nerf is in the pipe, I wonder if the buff is.
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Post by: daedalus
I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.
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Post by: Melissia
Neither guardsmen nor conscripts need a price hike. Their durability is not out of whack with anyone else's durability, for that matter, it takes overkill-levels of firepower to take down most units in one turn right now. Let's not turn this thread into yet another whinefest over conscripts. We have two threads about that already.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 daedalus wrote:I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.
Realistically, Scions have needed a redesign for quite some time.
I don't know what or how, but there's something to be done there.
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Post by: Howscat
Scions need to have their plasma gun weapons cost increased. They also should be run in a different detachment from regular guard.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
I've got loads of suggestions for Scions.
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Post by: master of ordinance
If anything I would say that Storm Troopers and Conscripts need to remain the same, and regular Guardsmen and Veterans need to be buffed to their level.
Veterans especially need some love, and I can honestly not tell whether they where an oversight, the result of a lazy writer, a deliberate nerf to force Guard players to purchase new models or a malicious jab.Right now Veterans are a joke, taking up and Elites slot, costing far more than regular Guardsmen for nothing more than a slightly better BS and completely lacking all the cool options and upgrades that made them fun to run back in the older editions.
The LRBT also needs a damn good looking at as the Battlecannon is currently outrageously weak, having all the explosive potential of a hand grenade despite it obviously being a lot bigger. At the very least it needs to be HE 2d6. The other variants also need looking at, especially the Exterminator which should be TL in all honesty.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Howscat wrote:Scions need to have their plasma gun weapons cost increased. They also should be run in a different detachment from regular guard.
That's coming whenever we get the codices, I think.
They already require Tempestor Primes to issue them Orders.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Basically I'd like to see scions become our answer to primarus rievers and tau pathfinders. They're nearly there but not quite.
Make hot shot lasguns assault 2. Give them hot shot laspistols as well, and access to shock grenades and the ability to deploy in a forward position. So their wargear would look like this:
Hotshot lasgun
Hotshot laspistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Possible shock grenades
I'm also wondering if their specials should be reduced from 2 per 5 to 1 per 5, to reduce plasma spam. Oh, and increase their LD to match the sisters. It just makes sense.
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Post by: vipoid
With regard to Scions, I think we should be careful. GW already has a tendency to use a sledgehammer when a scalpel would have been enough, and I'd really rather that Scions didn't just end up as overpriced garbage for another 2 editions.
I think an increase in the price of plasmaguns might well be enough. But even that is something I hope doesn't get too out of control (let's not forget that plasmaguns aren't exclusive to Scions and several of our other bodies don't have their advantages).
Another possibility would be to put regular Scions in the Elite slot. Perhaps they could be troops if your army/detachment contains only MT models?
master of ordinance wrote:If anything I would say that Storm Troopers and Conscripts need to remain the same, and regular Guardsmen and Veterans need to be buffed to their level.
Veterans especially need some love, and I can honestly not tell whether they where an oversight, the result of a lazy writer, a deliberate nerf to force Guard players to purchase new models or a malicious jab.Right now Veterans are a joke, taking up and Elites slot, costing far more than regular Guardsmen for nothing more than a slightly better BS and completely lacking all the cool options and upgrades that made them fun to run back in the older editions.
Vets do indeed need a reason to be taken. I think moving them to the Elites slot was a mistake - especially given that our army seems best suited to the Batallion and Brigade detachments (both of which have a heavy requirement of troop choices). And then you have the various nerfs to the Chimera along with its considerable increase in price.
Also, I want to know who thought it would be a good idea to move SWSs to Elites? 
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Guys, I had a bizarre idea. What if vets were an upgrade for regular infantry squads rather than a separate unit? Let infantry squads take up to 2 specials along with a heavy weapon team, then you can spend a CP to turn them into vets, giving them +1 BS. Vets as troops again.
And if regimental Doctrines become a thing again, then all IG infantry could get them. Except for conscripts.
This doesn't have to be limited to infantry squads. Chimeras, sentinels, anything that isn't a character, a scion, a conscript or an abhuman.
This could go the other way for conscripts. A stratagem called "send in the next wave". Costs x amount of CPs, allows you to regenerate a destroyed unit of conscripts.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!
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Post by: daedalus
Future War Cultist wrote:
This could go the other way for conscripts. A stratagem called "send in the next wave". Costs x amount of CPs, allows you to regenerate a destroyed unit of conscripts.
Would be worth it for the heads exploding.
109357
Post by: NenkotaMoon
Explode them heads.
112278
Post by: ross-128
The main things off the top of my head:
1: it lost its fire ports, so you can't shoot heavy/special weapons out the top hatch anymore.
2: it lost command tank, so it can't be an order bus anymore.
3: its ability to fire heavy weapons while moving got a -1 penalty tacked on to it.
4: it went from 65 points with weapons to 91 points with weapons (or 93 points with the multilaser).
If nothing else I'd like to see it at least get command tank back. Sure, the new character rules kind of make its "extra layer of armor" feature obsolete, but the size of the hull would effectively extend the area of the order bubble a bit, and it would be amusing to have the lone embarked officer firing six lasguns.
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Post by: vipoid
- It lost Command Vehicle.
- It lose its fire points.
- Its movement now degrades as it takes wounds.
- Its already pitiful BS degrades as it takes wounds.
- If it moves at all then *all* non-flamer weapons suffer -1 to hit.
- The Multilaser is now overpriced garbage.
- It now costs 91pts base (with 2 HBs), and 109 if you run it with 2 Heavy Flamers.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
I think it lost amphibious as well.
@ daedalus & NenkotaMoon
It would definitely require a minimum of 3 CPs to pull off. It does seem like cheese though, if I'm honest.
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Post by: argonak
Future War Cultist wrote:
Basically I'd like to see scions become our answer to primarus rievers and tau pathfinders. They're nearly there but not quite.
Make hot shot lasguns assault 2. Give them hot shot laspistols as well, and access to shock grenades and the ability to deploy in a forward position. So their wargear would look like this:
Hotshot lasgun
Hotshot laspistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Possible shock grenades
I'm also wondering if their specials should be reduced from 2 per 5 to 1 per 5, to reduce plasma spam. Oh, and increase their LD to match the sisters. It just makes sense.
As a scion player, I think that's a terrible idea. Assault is a horrible ability for the IG. When would we ever want to be advancing? Rapid Fire is IG's thing. And NO I do not want to have to pay for stupid pistols I would never use.
Plasma guns on scions aren't the problem. The problem is that we can deep strike them into rapid fire range on a 4 man suicide squad.
My changes:
1. Make us pay for deep strike, by giving us jump pack options.
2. Delete command squads. Move their options over to the main squad. Keep specials as 2 for 5, or 4 for 10.
Command squads are leftovers from a previous edition design. All their options should just be given to a regular squad. A 4 man squad of T3 troops (even scions with their armor) with heavy investment of special abilities is just asking to be shot to pieces. Put the med kit and the banner in as options for the normal squad. Problem resolved.
This would let GW adjust the cost of deep strike, and give us a reason to put our scions back in their Tauroxes. Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus wrote:I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.
I don't think GW has changed their colors enough to ever nerf something that makes people buy 50 man units of troopers that cost $3 each.
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Post by: ross-128
If GW does drop an Exterminatus on all our good stuff, I hope at least we manage to move enough models while it lasts to make them start seeing us as a "main" faction on par with SM and CSM. A guardsman can dream... 
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
I think, regarding Stormtroopers:
1: Stormtroopers go back to being Elites.
2: Remove Grav Chute ability, make it cost 3ppm to upgrade a unit to have Grav Chutes
WRT Command Squads:
Remove all Command Squads, make them a mandatory part of their respective officer again. Remove the ability for them to take special and heavy weapons.
And yes, I am still am and always will be annoyed about Stormtroopers, excuse me, Scions, being their own army, and getting their own hardback book.
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Post by: ross-128
I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
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Post by: master of ordinance
ross-128 wrote:
The main things off the top of my head:
1: it lost its fire ports, so you can't shoot heavy/special weapons out the top hatch anymore.
2: it lost command tank, so it can't be an order bus anymore.
3: its ability to fire heavy weapons while moving got a -1 penalty tacked on to it.
4: it went from 65 points with weapons to 91 points with weapons (or 93 points with the multilaser).
If nothing else I'd like to see it at least get command tank back. Sure, the new character rules kind of make its "extra layer of armor" feature obsolete, but the size of the hull would effectively extend the area of the order bubble a bit, and it would be amusing to have the lone embarked officer firing six lasguns.
vipoid wrote:
- It lost Command Vehicle.
- It lose its fire points.
- Its movement now degrades as it takes wounds.
- Its already pitiful BS degrades as it takes wounds.
- If it moves at all then *all* non-flamer weapons suffer -1 to hit.
- The Multilaser is now overpriced garbage.
- It now costs 91pts base (with 2 HBs), and 109 if you run it with 2 Heavy Flamers.
This is a sick joke, right?
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Post by: Melissia
Sadly, no, it's correct. Chimeras got hit HARD.
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is, and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc. An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
master of ordinance wrote:
This is a sick joke, right?
The Chimera got more resilient, though. But really, the loss of fire points, effectively kills any purpose it might have had. Oh well.
All vehicles went up in price, and, as a transport, it's pretty fair, all things considered. However, that requires us to have something we want to get closer to the enemy.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
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Post by: argonak
Space marines pay only 3 points for jump packs, so grav chutes can't cost that much as they just give one tiny piece of a jump pack's ability. Just give scions jump packs as an option. It would fill a hole in our army as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote:@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
I've always assumed that HSLGs were GW's version of a carbine, as the scions are supposed to be special forces. In which case their lower range makes sense.
But now that I think about it, assault 2 would be far better than rapid fire. I'd be dumping 40 shots at 18" instead of at 9".
I am now in your camp! hah!
As to the command characters, I doubt GW is going to dump the existing command squad. its not that old, it still includes all the options, and it looks decent. Neither would they for scions, as the scion kit already includes all the options. Its really just a game rules problem. I'd really rather they weren't just even more elite characters to push our drop numbers up even higher.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway". Automatically Appended Next Post: Future War Cultist wrote:@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
Why would they make a new command set?
You can make the Standard Bearer, Medic, Master of Ordnance, and Officer of the Fleet out of the Cadian Command Squad set right now.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Well, umm.... I do not really know what to say. My army has always been and will always be a mechanised company of Heavy Infantry. I feel cheated.
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Post by: Melissia
Try the Taurox. I know it's not very good visually for a lot of people, but it's a better source of firepower.
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Post by: ross-128
Honestly, it's a bit of a head-scratcher why the Taurox prime is only 60 points base to the Chimera's 75. Sure, it has 1 less toughness, but it has BS3+ and a much better weapon selection. Also it's totally worth the extra 5 points over the regular Taurox to get those things. For some reason the regular Taurox only gets two autocannons and can't swap them for anything.
Of course, the Taurox Prime can only transport MT... so for regular Guard, ground transport options are currently poor. Either 91 points for a Chimera with two heavy bolters, or 85 points for a Taurox with two autocannons.
That also raises the question of why the Razorback is 65 points when it has the same toughness as a Chimera, the same wounds, BS3+, and access to twin assault cannons or twin lascannons. Are the extra 6 seats really worth that much?
Hmm, we've already got a BMP and an MRAP, it would be neat if we could get a Humvee as a dirt-cheap transport option. Outside of Krieg, that is.
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Post by: SuspiciousSucculent
 Melissia wrote:Try the Taurox. I know it's not very good visually for a lot of people, but it's a better source of firepower.
The aesthetics is why I'm building open-topped Chimeras to use as Tauroxes. And really, it would just need a couple more turret options to be kinda a cool alternative. Especially for cheap mounted infantry squads.
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
argonak wrote:
Space marines pay only 3 points for jump packs, so grav chutes can't cost that much as they just give one tiny piece of a jump pack's ability. Just give scions jump packs as an option. It would fill a hole in our army as well.
It costs 3 points for Genestealers to gain deep strike.
Stormtroopers should not "fill that hole", where Space Marines do a thing that we don't do. In that case, Space Marines should also get a cheap swarm area-denial unit, and powerful antitank artillery. God knows they don't need anything like that.
Stormtroopers are special operations, not close assault. Veterans and Conscripts are close assault. Stormtroopers work in small teams to accomplish limited and specific objectives. They shouldn't be an army in and of themselves, remotely, and should have options for a bunch of specialist equipment to accomplish their mission be it assassinating an enemy leader or blowing up a key enemy fortification or artillery battery.
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
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Post by: Bobthehero
Scions are not worth 13ppm, no way, 12 was alright back in 7th, now they might be a point to cheap. And personally, I am really happy I can run an army of them.
112278
Post by: ross-128
Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
29660
Post by: argonak
ross-128 wrote:Honestly, it's a bit of a head-scratcher why the Taurox prime is only 60 points base to the Chimera's 75. Sure, it has 1 less toughness, but it has BS3+ and a much better weapon selection. Also it's totally worth the extra 5 points over the regular Taurox to get those things. For some reason the regular Taurox only gets two autocannons and can't swap them for anything.
Of course, the Taurox Prime can only transport MT... so for regular Guard, ground transport options are currently poor. Either 91 points for a Chimera with two heavy bolters, or 85 points for a Taurox with two autocannons.
That also raises the question of why the Razorback is 65 points when it has the same toughness as a Chimera, the same wounds, BS3+, and access to twin assault cannons or twin lascannons. Are the extra 6 seats really worth that much?
Hmm, we've already got a BMP and an MRAP, it would be neat if we could get a Humvee as a dirt-cheap transport option. Outside of Krieg, that is.
Chimera also has its lasgun array. But I agree its overcosted, or else a lot of other transports are undercost.
Don't look close at the Valkyrie competitors though or you'll be really ticked off.
I don't say they should fill a hole where space marines do a thing we don't do, I say they should fill a hole where we have too few fast attack options.
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
ross-128 wrote:Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
Let's see, I had a nifty website going over the Org Chart of an infantry unit somewhere:
Here:
A Platoon Command Section in the US Army in 1944 would have had:
1 Platoon Leader
1 Platoon Sergeant
1 Platoon Guide
2 Messengers
A Company Command Section would have had:
1 CO
1 XO
1 First Sergeant
1 Communications Officer
1 Clerk
1 Cook
1 Quartermaster
http://www.100thww2.org/100org/rifcom.html
If we assume the Clerk, Cook, and Quartermaster have stayed at the barracks, that still leaves several guys helping out the Company Commander or Platoon Commander.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
ross-128 wrote:Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
Even a Private can be a pencil pusher you do know, or I guess don't.
53939
Post by: vipoid
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Let's see, I had a nifty website going over the Org Chart of an infantry unit somewhere:
Here:
A Platoon Command Section in the US Army in 1944 would have had:
1 Platoon Leader
1 Platoon Sergeant
1 Platoon Guide
2 Messengers
A Company Command Section would have had:
1 CO
1 XO
1 First Sergeant
1 Communications Officer
1 Clerk
1 Cook
1 Quartermaster
http://www.100thww2.org/100org/rifcom.html
If we assume the Clerk, Cook, and Quartermaster have stayed at the barracks, that still leaves several guys helping out the Company Commander or Platoon Commander.
Something to consider is that Platoons were arranged very differently to what we see in 40k.
For example, a standard WW2 platoon in the British army would have been along these lines:
I've spaced them out into the smallest groups you're liable to see. For example, one of the squads would initially stay together (led by the corporal). However, once the machine gun was in position the corporal would advance along with 3 riflemen, and the lance corporal would take charge of the squad machine gun.
In essence, compared to 40k the real world had far more leaders and was also more flexible (the squads, rather than being forced to stick together were actually designed to split - which was again helped by having additional leaders).
However, we also need to remember that the whole platoon structure was based on something that 40k lacks entirely - covering fire. In real life, the squad machine gun would provide covering fire for the corporal and his ~3 riflemen to advance to the enemy and get in close to use their grenades and bayonets. In 40k though, there are no mechanics to represent covering fire, so this structure wouldn't actually work in-game.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox.
I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith.
But let's compare even further:
The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.
Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability.
So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon.
Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in.
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do.
Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it?
Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad.
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before.
He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit.
Deal with it. 
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff.
They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose.
Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons.
Got it.
NO.
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox.
I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith.
But let's compare even further:
The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.
Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability.
So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon.
Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in.
Well, why would you not have a vox if your CCS has one?
Two, Acts of Faith, at 1 per army, is absolutely atrocious. It is a rule that makes the army more effective as two units attached to the another army. Imagifiers are supposed to grant more, but it costs more to buy two, giving a fair [75%] chance of getting it off than it does to buy a second squad.
Kanluwen wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do.
Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it?
Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad.
A command squad isn't a special weapons squad. A command squad is the retinue of advisers and seconds-in-command, whom an Imperial Guard Officer needs to have to oversee the various functions of his Company.
Kanluwen wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before.
He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit.
Deal with it.
At least one Character does have an attached unit, and the oilers that come with Meks are also a part of the Mek's unit.
More importantly, I suggested that, like the Geminae Superia, the entire command section get the CHARACTER keyword. The can't be both untargetable and equipped with a crap-ton of special weapons.
Kanluwen wrote:
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff.
They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose.
Okay, so the prime is the equivalent of a radioman then, a relay for off-board tyranid officers [the hive ship] to communicate with their troops.
Kanluwen wrote:
Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons.
Got it.
NO.
Why? There are already special weapons squads for the express purpose of having special weapons.
It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
101511
Post by: Future War Cultist
How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
40344
Post by: master of ordinance
Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade Launchers are quite sadly still worthless when compared to every other option available, which is a pity because as a fluffy weapon they are cool. If they where a free upgrade over a lasgun then maybe they would be worth something but not as they are currently.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap. Also, compare to other sources of extra shots: Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6". The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox. I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith. But let's compare even further: The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines. Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability. So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon. Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in.
Well, why would you not have a vox if your CCS has one?
Because you're fielding Conscripts, Heavy Weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads, etc? Not everything has access to Vox.
Two, Acts of Faith, at 1 per army, is absolutely atrocious. It is a rule that makes the army more effective as two units attached to the another army. Imagifiers are supposed to grant more, but it costs more to buy two, giving a fair [75%] chance of getting it off than it does to buy a second squad.
Come back to me when your army's special rules are nullified by having anything without Mechanicus in it. Kanluwen wrote: Kanluwen wrote: and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are? Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do. Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it? Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad.
A command squad isn't a special weapons squad. A command squad is the retinue of advisers and seconds-in-command, whom an Imperial Guard Officer needs to have to oversee the various functions of his Company.
A Command Squad is whatever the hell the commander wants it to be. If a commander sees fit that his squad should be toting plasma guns and used to plug holes, then that's what it will be. Kanluwen wrote: Kanluwen wrote: An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc. After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before. He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit. Deal with it.
At least one Character does have an attached unit, and the oilers that come with Meks are also a part of the Mek's unit. More importantly, I suggested that, like the Geminae Superia, the entire command section get the CHARACTER keyword. The can't be both untargetable and equipped with a crap-ton of special weapons.
And I don't care what you suggested really. You're trying to make Guard like Sisters--they're not. Kanluwen wrote: A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff. They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose.
Okay, so the prime is the equivalent of a radioman then, a relay for off-board tyranid officers [the hive ship] to communicate with their troops.
The Prime is the equivalent of a radio which will devour you. Kanluwen wrote: Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons. Got it. NO.
Why? There are already special weapons squads for the express purpose of having special weapons.
NOPE. Special Weapon Squads aren't. They let you have 3 out of 6 guys outfitted with Special Weapons, and the remaining three still have Lasguns.
It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
Why is it that whenever it comes to Guard, we always have people talking about "faux-realism" when it suits them? If you want "faux-realism", then Sergeants and Officers should be toting Lasguns not waving pistols and CCWs around. If you want "faux-realism", then Command Squads should number somewhere around 20 guys with a full half being equivalent to Scions in terms of gear and training. If you want "faux-realism", then Orders should be applying to the whole army when Vox-Casters are in use and tanks should be able to take the non-FRSRF Orders as well. If you want "faux-realism", Mortars should have variable loads. Etc, etc, etc.
29660
Post by: argonak
Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade launchers are almost always worse than lasguns. I wouldn't take them if they were free. Automatically Appended Next Post: Katherine, the problem with command squads is that any intelligent opponent will shoot four t3 special ability troops off the table on turn one. They're pointless as anything but a suicide unit.
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Post by: vipoid
Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
The problem is that Grenade Launchers are abysmal full stop.
They're not just bad compared to plasmaguns, they're bad compared to *all* our other weapons.
I really don't think making them easier to take or even free is the answer. The answer is to make them worth taking in the first place.
One possibility would be to give them more shots (possibly their range, too) and make them the best long-range special weapon for guard squads.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Maybe if they had more grenade options. Like, suppression/concussion grenades. They don't do any damage but the target unit suffers -1 to their to hit rolls and can't fire overwatch. Only works on infantry. These are the things that snare mines are apparently made out of. Just a thought.
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
Kanluwen wrote:
It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
Why is it that whenever it comes to Guard, we always have people talking about "faux-realism" when it suits them?
If you want "faux-realism", then Sergeants and Officers should be toting Lasguns not waving pistols and CCWs around.
If you want "faux-realism", then Command Squads should number somewhere around 20 guys with a full half being equivalent to Scions in terms of gear and training.
If you want "faux-realism", then Orders should be applying to the whole army when Vox-Casters are in use and tanks should be able to take the non-FRSRF Orders as well.
If you want "faux-realism", Mortars should have variable loads.
Etc, etc, etc.
Canticles is absolutely the way all army special abilities should work. Also, it's by detachment, not army.
I'm not trying to make Guard like Sisters. If anything, this change would make them even more distinct, and re-enforce the idea that the IG isn't comprised of superhuman badasses or fanatics with actual divine intervention on their side, but ordinary, non-heroic, non-special soldiers holding the line.
And with regards to faux-realism:
Yes.
No, because the CCS members are special-ops badasses.
Yes, sort of. It doesn't make sense at all for Orders to apply to the whole army, but CC's should be able to order artillery, tanks, and air support.
So should the rest of the artillery and tanks. I'd love to see a varied selection of artillery ammunition, from base bleed for extended range to smoke shells. Tanks should have at least AP and HE shells available.
But Artillery shells would be a lot of work for fairly little benefit, the least we can do is stop this nonsense with Command Squads and Orders, which would absolutely do wonders for reducing the appearance of our OP-ness without actually fundamentally damaging the army's performance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
argonak wrote: Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade launchers are almost always worse than lasguns. I wouldn't take them if they were free.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Katherine, the problem with command squads is that any intelligent opponent will shoot four t3 special ability troops off the table on turn one. They're pointless as anything but a suicide unit.
Not if the entire unit has the Character keyword.
This can be done. Characters don't have to be alone, since Meks can have Oilers and Celestine can have Geminae.
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Post by: Aenarian
Grenade Launchers are terrible because, as someone said, they are a solution in search of a problem. You have limited slots to take a special weapon, so you pay an opportunity cost when taking any of them. But the rest of them have a clearly defined niche.
The meltagun is good against vehicles and monsters.
The plasma gun is good against most things, but with overcharge excels against harder targets
A sniper rifle is able to damage characters
A grenade launcher deals with light infantry and does somewhat well against light vehicles.
A flamer deals with infantry in close range, and acts as charge deterren.
Problem is, AM has from what I've seen always been able to deal with infantry in other ways. A FRFSRF lasgun is better than the frag grenade from the grenade launcher, and if you buy it for the krak grenade, you might as well get a weapon that deals with heavier stuff as well (like a meltagun or plasma gun). Even if the grenade launcher is free, you have to pay points for the unit itself and then its usually more efficient to take another option. Some fire support squads with free GLs might be worth it (24 points for 3-4 GLs could have some use), but its never an attractive option for line infantry.
Giving infantry the ability to take 1 flamer or grenade launcher and in addition take 1 plasma gun or meltagun might help.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
That's what I was thinking. The grenade launcher could be a separate (and free?) upgrade in addition to the other specials which have much more defined roles. Like I was saying, an infantry squad could take a GL in addition to one of the other specials. And I know what could be brought in to replace its spot on that special list...the good old heavy stubber!
Again, my idea for a GL was to make it a range bonusto throwing a grenade, just like Marine auxiliary GLs.
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Post by: Booger ork
1) New rough rider models, possibly with a napoleonic lancer theme
2) More regiments in plastic e.g praetorians, mordians
3) Smaller artillery, not tank mounted, in plastic, like the kreig heavy mortar
4) Regimental tactics
5) another macharian crusade in the fluff
6) more fortifications for guard
7) a new infantry kit with the options for several special weapons, like plasma guns, or sergeant weapons. Even if the released upgrade sprues with just a bunch of plasma/melts I would be happy
8) make the death strike actually worth taking
I know all of these won't be implemented, especially seeing as games workshops focus seems to be on girlymans suck-ups and chaos, but it would be nice to see the actual humans get some attention
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Post by: Melissia
Being able to take an additional GL for your guard squad alongside a special and/or heavy weapon sounds like a nice solution. Also would help encourage people to take infantry squads instead of constantly spamming conscripts or scions.
It's sad that, even though guardsmen are actually rather good this edition, they're still outshined.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote:Being able to take an additional GL for your guard squad alongside a special and/or heavy weapon sounds like a nice solution. Also would help encourage people to take infantry squads instead of constantly spamming conscripts or scions.
Why would anyone bother with that?
Straight-up, if I had to choose between a Lasgun or a Grenade Launcher in addition to the special/heavy...I'd keep the damn Lasgun.
It's sad that, even though guardsmen are actually rather good this edition, they're still outshined.
"Good" is relative.
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
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Post by: Melissia
Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
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Post by: Melissia
Kanluwen wrote: Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.
The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.
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Post by: Booger ork
Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.
The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.
But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead. Whereas if guardsmen die, your tanks have a new area to move in
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Post by: Melissia
Booger ork wrote:But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead.
Congratulations, you found the flaw of playing an "elite" army that relies upon better stats and equipment. On the plus side, it also takes more firepower to remove a tactical squad than a guards squad.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.
The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.
The problem is that Tacticals don't have a part of the army (Officers) that are supposed to give them buffs that affect a specific gun.
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Post by: Melissia
Kanluwen wrote:The problem is that Tacticals don't have a part of the army (Officers) that are supposed to give them buffs that affect a specific gun.
That's true, tacticals get more generalist buffs from more expensive officers (cap and lt give rerolls of 1s to hit and to wound, respectively, for less than 100 points each depending on gear). Though apparently, Imperial Fists get a stratagem that gives them a bolter buff.
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Post by: Booger ork
Melissia wrote:Booger ork wrote:But if the tacticals die, then that's a good chunk of your army dead.
Congratulations, you found the flaw of playing an "elite" army that relies upon better stats and equipment. On the plus side, it also takes more firepower to remove a tactical squad than a guards squad.
Not that much more. Against lasguns: 90 hits to kill the squad(marines), 30 for the guardsmen. This means that the marines are going to die slightly faster, and that's against lasguns, designed to attack t3 models
Automatically Appended Next Post: Booger ork wrote: Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
Difference is, Tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't "omg op take nothing else" but they have very solid application in just about any combat situation depending on how they're kitted out.
The same can't really be said of Guardsmen.
Find me a situation tacticals can do that guardsmen can't
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Post by: Melissia
Booger ork wrote:Not that much more. Against lasguns: 90 hits to kill the squad(marines), 30 for the guardsmen. This means that the marines are going to die slightly faster, and that's against lasguns, designed to attack t3 models
Yes, 180 shots to kill a squad of marines. To get those 180 shots in one turn, the guard player would need to spend well over twice the points of the tactical marine squad in guardsmen and commanders, and ALSO be in a position where the 50 guardsmen needed* would all fire in unison at the same target while all being in rapid fire range and unharmed. *(it'd require more than this, actually; sergeants don't get lasguns) Comparably, Using boltguns, it takes 35 shots to on average outright kill a squad of guardsmen in one turn, assuming the tactical marines have only boltguns (an unrealistic scenario to say the least), which a 10-man squad of only bolter-brothers can't deliver. Relying solely on shooting like this, however, doesn't use all of the strengths of the tactical squad. even if you take no special weapons on the tactical squad, its greatest strength would be to rapid fire and charge, killing six guardsmen (and taking on average no damage from overwatch due to it being at 6+), then dealing another ~4 damage, and usually outright wiping the squad out in one turn before consolidating either due to damage or due to morale. And this is done with one squad which in the process would take practically no damage. Even if you did FRFSRF and then a charge, you'd need around thirty guardsmen, and a company and platoon commander, all managing to make their charge after rapid firing with the order, a much more difficult scenario to set up than a single tactical squad-- and still 40 points more expensive the tacticals. Both of these situations of course rely upon being in a vacuum, but it does kinda prove my point that tacticals are actually decent at being a generalist unit. They aren't OMG OP PLS NERF!, I wouldn't even say they're "strong", they're just decent. Guardsmen are a shooty unit. They're best when shooting. They're not really generalists.
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Post by: Banelord300
Updated shock troops to give them a face lift that is way overdue while also having all the special weapons options rather than just flamer and the still horrible GL.
Salamander kit!
A new commander rather than just Yarrick and Creed.
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Post by: Thenord
New Catachan models..
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
More new characters, more plastics, more ways to play Guard!
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Post by: daedalus
For the people interested in alternate guard regiments, I noticed that the metal Mordian infantry squad (the one that has lasguns and the sgt with power sword) is back in stock on GW's site.
$35 for 10 guardsmen isn't cheap, but they're metal and cheaper than ebay per model at the moment. I went in for two boxes.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Or.... Victoria miniatures Mordians. 40 Bucks (not including shipping) for ten guys with a whole bunch of options, a whole bunch of extra arms, guns, a special weapon, all convertable to GW models. All this in good quality resin.
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Post by: daedalus
I've got 20 of those guys. They're really well done, but I like the feel of metal more. I think that's just a personal preference. I save the resin guys for filling in the gaps in the army, like plasmagun infantry.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
 Banelord300 wrote:Updated shock troops to give them a face lift that is way overdue while also having all the special weapons options rather than just flamer and the still horrible GL.
Salamander kit!
A new commander rather than just Yarrick and Creed.
Cadia has fallen. Let someone else have the spotlight.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
If Armageddon is going to play an important role in the future maybe it should be steel legion.
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Post by: nordsturmking
i would like to see little and appropriate nerf to IG.
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Post by: vipoid
What would you consider appropriate?
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Post by: master of ordinance
Going by the current attitude from Marine players, probably a halving of all stats and a doubling of the points cost. And orders being removed.
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Post by: Daliopq
As far as rules go, I would be glad to see doctrines come back. Aside from that I would like some upgrade sprues with weapons, head swaps, cameoline cloaks, etc. It would be nice for GW to do something like this to add a little individuality and character to the guard, especially for modeling vets squads. As it stands now I do a lot of third party shopping to spice up the existing Cadian models.
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Post by: ThePorcupine
I want to see vox not be useless.
Really, GW? You're trying to tell me if my squads are equipped with radios, you know, those things that transmit over city-wide areas, they can receive orders from a whole 18 inches away? A smidge further than a hellhound flamer can shoot?
I always thought the vox models looked so cool. But they always seemed like such a useless upgrade in every edition. They should make you be able to receive orders from anywhere on the battlefield. No range limit... And I would still debate not taking them.
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Post by: vipoid
ThePorcupine wrote:I want to see vox not be useless.
Really, GW? You're trying to tell me if my squads are equipped with radios, you know, those things that transmit over city-wide areas, they can receive orders from a whole 18 inches away? A smidge further than a hellhound flamer can shoot?
I always thought the vox models looked so cool. But they always seemed like such a useless upgrade in every edition. They should make you be able to receive orders from anywhere on the battlefield. No range limit... And I would still debate not taking them.
Honestly, I couldn't see myself taking them even if they allowed that. With the new rules, range of orders just isn't an issue for me.
I do agree with you though. Honestly, given that this is the 41st millennium, I'd expect radios to be included as standard. 
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Post by: rhinoceraids
Some cool stand alone heros would be neat. Like somebody who is awesome but also doesn't require you to bring a Pl worth of troops because all he does is buff them.
(Marbo)
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Marbo is a platoon.... a platoon of one.
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Post by: ThePorcupine
Multilaser must drop in price to at least the same as a heavy bolter, considering it's equal or worse.
Chimera should drop in base cost at least 5 points. Or allow one embarked model to fire their weapon out of the top hatch. Or both.
Sentinels could use some sort of "weapon stabilizers" or something to allow to re-roll hit rolls of 1 or BS not being affected by moving. Just a little something. Right now it seems stupid to pay 60 points on a single BS4+ lascannon shot when you can have the same for the exact same cost as part of a 10 man infantry squad that can receive orders to reroll 1s and also has a gakload of lasgun shots and ablative wounds.
Taurox prime should go up 5 points or so.
Russ tanks should go down 5 points or so. Or go up to 13 wounds from 12. Or have all their weapons unaffected by moving. Or all 3.
Eradicator nova cannon should be S8, or 48", or both.
Exterminator autocannon should be heavy 6.
Vanquisher battle cannon should be heavy 2 or able to reroll hits.
Creed is a bit too many points for what he does. He should have some additional fluffy ability like adding +1 to your roll if you're trying to seize the initiative. And considering he costs more than two company commanders, he should be able to issue 4 orders up from 3, or give orders from 12" up from 6".
Conscripts unable to receive orders. Boom. Fixed.
Veterans should get doctrines back but they should cost 20 down from 30
Scions 10 points per model up from 9
Plasma gun up to 10 points per gun
Melta gun down to 10 points per gun
Autocannon down to 13 points from 15
Grenadier gauntlet down to 5 points from 10. Why am I paying more for a worse grenade launcher?
Vox cost 3 points down from 5 and now has infinite range
Devil dog melta cannon should be assault d3, not heavy d3
Bane wolf chem cannon down to 12 points from 15 points
Lord Commissar leadership and/or execution bubble up to 12" from 6". What's the point of a lord commissar? It's 20 points more than a regular commissar and does the exact same thing. Nobody's gonna use this guy.
Nork Deddog is not worth 80 points. Lower it down to 60
Valkyries down to 12 wounds from 14. Why the hell does a flying transport have a beefier profile than a main battle tank?
Vendettas need to be in the main codex. And they need BS3+ to justify their cost. They're not throwing out a barrage of missiles and bullets like Valkyries. They're trying to land pinpoint shots.
Deathstrike must go back to the previous edition's way of shooting. It should fire on a 6 or more, not an 8 or more. Right now it's almost impossible to fire it earlier than turn 4. By that point the game is already over.
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Post by: vipoid
ThePorcupine wrote:
Scions 10 points per model up from 9
Tempestus command squad 12 points per model up from 9
Unless you're going to give Scion Command Squads an additional bonus (not just extra special weapons), then having them cost more than normal Scions is just moronic.
You're already increasing their price and the price of plasma, and that's on top of the nerf that limited how many you can include. I suggest we at least try out those two before raising their cost even more.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Two things I'd do to vox casters;
One, up the 18" range to infinity range. It's a small change but it makes sense.
Two, give them a load of CP bonuses. For example, spend a CP, nominate one enemy unit within 12" of a model with a vox caster and call in an air strike, or an artillery strike, or just enact an order. So to get the best out of your stratagems, take vox casters.
Oh, and we should get the same auspex scan and flak missile stratagems the marines have. It just make sure sense, and the former could really come in handy for us. Maybe the orbital bombardment one too, but from an officer of the fleet rather than your warlord.
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Post by: ThePorcupine
You're right. That's a bit much. Their points can stay at 10 scion-wide I think. That'll bump up the 4 plasma squad from 64 points currently up to 80 points. Significant, but not enough to make them unviable I think. I'd field that if I had the models.
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Post by: PIUS_2
Mix and Match IG tactics!
Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.
Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save
Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment
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Post by: vipoid
PIUS_2 wrote:Mix and Match IG tactics!
Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.
Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save
Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment
I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish here. Surely picking a regiment should be a reward - not a punishment? 
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Post by: ross-128
Why would it have to be mostly negative? Marines and spiky marines are getting straight benefits with no downsides.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Aye, straight benefits are what we need. I honestly do not see why the Guard have to be the only codex to have to take downsides with its faction based benefits.
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
As SM CT's have no downsides, I'd be pissed if our regimental doctrines came with downsides.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
PIUS_2 wrote:Mix and Match IG tactics!
Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.
Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save
Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment
Great things set back by terrible ideas and disadvantages that no one will want to select to play. Automatically Appended Next Post: I got one...
You Win?: You win game, but someone punches you in the gut.
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Post by: Klowny
I feel if conscripts get nerfed guard lose their status as top dog, going down to second. Conscripts need to be toned down, currently it's an unarguable statement. Scions aren't that big of a problem tbh, I've never had them do anything even remotely good when I face them, deny their DS and they're left camping objectives. I do think plasma should be less of an auto take, maybe a weapon profile that forces an overcharge to do proper damage to vehicles. HWT are the bane of my existence, but that's just a fundamental flaw in my own army (Necrons).
However.
Guard tanks need a buff, not the anti horde ones, but the bigger ones. Everything from the LR to the bane blades need some attention. Everything else I've seen so far isn't so bad, not everything is great but if these problems are addressed guard would become very well balanced I feel
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
 Klowny wrote:I feel if conscripts get nerfed guard lose their status as top dog, going down to second. Conscripts need to be toned down, currently it's an unarguable statement. Scions aren't that big of a problem tbh, I've never had them do anything even remotely good when I face them, deny their DS and they're left camping objectives. I do think plasma should be less of an auto take, maybe a weapon profile that forces an overcharge to do proper damage to vehicles. HWT are the bane of my existence, but that's just a fundamental flaw in my own army (Necrons).
However.
Guard tanks need a buff, not the anti horde ones, but the bigger ones. Everything from the LR to the bane blades need some attention. Everything else I've seen so far isn't so bad, not everything is great but if these problems are addressed guard would become very well balanced I feel
Who gets first, will they be on the chopping next?
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Post by: Klowny
Tbh, and this is going off tournament lists, once conscripts (and maybe a few other outliers) get attention everything after that looks fairly balanced.
It's just that conscripts are so glaringly OP ATM that they have saturated top level play. Remove them and the variety becomes much much more prominent.
Guard are in a good spot once scripts have been toned down, give them a slight buff to tanks and they're a very well balanced army (internally).
I think Chaos in general would go to the top, but again they have brims that will also need attention.
And all of this is pre index's. But as it stands that's what I think needs to be done
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Klowny wrote:Tbh, and this is going off tournament lists, once conscripts (and maybe a few other outliers) get attention everything after that looks fairly balanced.
It's just that conscripts are so glaringly OP ATM that they have saturated top level play. Remove them and the variety becomes much much more prominent.
Guard are in a good spot once scripts have been toned down, give them a slight buff to tanks and they're a very well balanced army (internally).
I think Chaos in general would go to the top, but again they have brims that will also need attention.
And all of this is pre index's. But as it stands that's what I think needs to be done
I don't see that. yes conscripts need to be toned down, but units otherwise seem still weak.
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Post by: Klowny
In a vaacum maybe, but look at what your army offers compared to most?
Everything is dirt cheap. I remember my friend complaining that one of his units cost 15 points for an add on, taking the unit to over 150 points. I get 10 basic infantry for 120 points..
You get CP out the eyeballs. For a lot of armies it isn't possible to field a playable brigade.
Like I said, buff your tanks and your armies fine. There are ALOT worse armies out there. The majority of the xenos are laughably incompetent besides 1-2 units, which is not the case for most of the imperium armies
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also not saying that you don't have weak units, but every army has weak units.
If your tanks became more viable, and you still have a solid infantry base to build upon, and you can have multiple different builds that are legitimately good, your index is balanced.
I came from this in 7th. I could build my army many different ways and still be playable while still having a lot of good choices. Not everything in 7th necrons was good, a lot was bad, but on a whole it was widely accepted as having very good internal balance.
I'm not trying to turn this into another complaint thread, I personally think you guys are in a very good spot atm, and still will be if they give out some nerf bats
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
Klowny wrote:In a vaacum maybe, but look at what your army offers compared to most?
Everything is dirt cheap. I remember my friend complaining that one of his units cost 15 points for an add on, taking the unit to over 150 points. I get 10 basic infantry for 120 points..
You get CP out the eyeballs. For a lot of armies it isn't possible to field a playable brigade.
Like I said, buff your tanks and your armies fine. There are ALOT worse armies out there. The majority of the xenos are laughably incompetent besides 1-2 units, which is not the case for most of the imperium armies
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also not saying that you don't have weak units, but every army has weak units.
If your tanks became more viable, and you still have a solid infantry base to build upon, and you can have multiple different builds that are legitimately good, your index is balanced.
I came from this in 7th. I could build my army many different ways and still be playable while still having a lot of good choices. Not everything in 7th necrons was good, a lot was bad, but on a whole it was widely accepted as having very good internal balance.
I'm not trying to turn this into another complaint thread, I personally think you guys are in a very good spot atm, and still will be if they give out some nerf bats
Then we have a lot of sub par, most tanks, the chimera, command squads, veteran troops, ogryns, bullgryns.
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Post by: Klowny
Like I said this whole time, tanks need a buff. After that you'll have 4 bad units out of a whole codex? Not bad at all.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
That is pretty bad still.
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Post by: Klowny
This has to be a troll. I'm sorry, having only 4 bad units in an army in 8th is phenomenal. Have you seen or played any other armies? The large majority of units form a lot of codex's are would be considered 'pretty bad'. I understand wanting to have all your units be viable but it's just not the case. The only army that had every unit he good-really good was 7th elder.
Your basically saying you want your army to be on that level. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have the OP broken codex, but trying to claim that while also saying it's in the interest of 'balance' is ridiculous.
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Post by: PIUS_2
 vipoid wrote:PIUS_2 wrote:Mix and Match IG tactics!
Give us a bunch of regiment ability that have a couple positive but mostly negative traits to represent the diverse nature of the guard.
Example Ideas:
Stubborn: +1 LD in melee but cannot fall back.
Distinct Uniform: Enemy weapons can hit these models 4” beyond their normal range. +1 leadership if not in combat.
Behind The Lines: Deepstrike 12” away, free overwatch shooting for enemy if in range when drop. -1BS. (Represents lack of supplement, take Veteran IG to represent elysian ish guys)
Large Squads: Infantry, Vet, and conscript squad may have 10 extra guys, -1 leadership if they lose +10 guys. Lose 2” range on weapons if more than 10 guys in squad.
Close Combat Specialists: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against targets that are less than 12” away from their unit. Weapons with more then 18” range reduce the range profile on their weapons by 2”
Melee Specialists: 1+ WS, -2 LD if no enemies within 12"
Sharp Shooters: Weapons with more then 18” range have plus 2” range, -2 LD in combat
Arrogant: Instead of armor save bonus, +2 leadership in cover
Lightly Equipped: +2" when advancing, -1 armor save
Put Lightly Equipped and Sharp shooters and you sort of get Tallarn. Stubborn + arrogant + distinct uniform = Mordian ish guys. Behind The Lines + All Vets = ~Elysian ish troops. Stubborn + Sharp shooters + Melee Specialists = A Dysfunctional Regiment
I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish here. Surely picking a regiment should be a reward - not a punishment?
I might have not explained correctly :c
Regiment traits that specialize how your army plays. Getting certain traits together is a good idea with certain army builds but getting all of them, like the ones that contradict each other, at once should be a bad idea. With purely positive traits you would just pick all the traits possible. The imperial guard has a lot of diversity and I just thought that having traits you can mix and match would add more flavor.
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Post by: Panzergraf
Klowny wrote:
This has to be a troll. I'm sorry, having only 4 bad units in an army in 8th is phenomenal. Have you seen or played any other armies? The large majority of units form a lot of codex's are would be considered 'pretty bad'. I understand wanting to have all your units be viable but it's just not the case. The only army that had every unit he good-really good was 7th elder.
Your basically saying you want your army to be on that level. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have the OP broken codex, but trying to claim that while also saying it's in the interest of 'balance' is ridiculous.
Not wanting any units to be bad =/= wanting all units to be OP
It's about wanting a codex that lets you build the army you like, instead of one that incentivises just a couple cookiecutter builds.
That other armies have the same problem (or worse) is not a good argument against wanting GW to fix it.
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Post by: vipoid
PIUS_2 wrote:
I might have not explained correctly :c
Regiment traits that specialize how your army plays. Getting certain traits together is a good idea with certain army builds but getting all of them, like the ones that contradict each other, at once should be a bad idea. With purely positive traits you would just pick all the traits possible. The imperial guard has a lot of diversity and I just thought that having traits you can mix and match would add more flavor.
I get that but the downsides for these are just crippling and the upsides are so weak as to be meaningless in comparison (the only exception is Sharpshooter).
If you want weak buffs that emphasise flavour, that's fine. If you want stronger buffs that are balanced by downsides, that's okay (but seems weird when other armies are getting straight buffs). However, feeble buffs balanced by harsh downsides . . . why?
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Help me figure something out here. Would it be far to say that platoon commanders just can't compete with company commanders? The latter has better stats and senior officer. Lists I see just spam company commanders. Is it even worth having platoon commanders?
In a similar vain, ordinary infantry squads sit inbetween veteran squads and conscript squads, lacking the firepower of the former and the numbers of the latter. I have a solution to that which is probably very controversial...make the regular infantry squad have all the options of the vet squad, and "veterans" simply become an upgrade to infantry squads. So you can leave it up to the player to decide how far to go with regards to upgrades.
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Post by: vipoid
Future War Cultist wrote:Help me figure something out here. Would it be far to say that platoon commanders just can't compete with company commanders? The latter has better stats and senior officer. Lists I see just spam company commanders. Is it even worth having platoon commanders?
Yeah, that's accurate. Even aside from the stat differences, Platoon Commanders pay 20pts per order, compared with 15pts per order for the CC. I think platoon commanders should really be 15pts.
Future War Cultist wrote:In a similar vain, ordinary infantry squads sit inbetween veteran squads and conscript squads, lacking the firepower of the former and the numbers of the latter. I have a solution to that which is probably very controversial...make the regular infantry squad have all the options of the vet squad, and "veterans" simply become an upgrade to infantry squads. So you can leave it up to the player to decide how far to go with regards to upgrades.
A couple of questions:
1) If you upgrade the Infantry to Veterans, would they still be troops?
2) Would this really solve anything? I mean, if people are taking veterans instead of Infantry squads and you replaced the Veteran entry with a Veteran upgrade for Infantry Squads, wouldn't that just make the Veteran Upgrade an auto-take? If you see what I mean.
3) Do you think 3 special weapons (along with a Heavy Weapon and a Heavy Flamer) might be a bit much for basic infantry?
The thing is though, I actually find myself taking Infantry Squads far more than Veterans. Infantry lack the BS and special weapons of Veterans, sure, but they put more bodies on the table and they're troops. That's really helpful when you're trying to fill a Brigade or Battalion.
That said, it might be nice if they could take an extra special weapon. I think someone suggested earlier that you could maybe split their special weapons into 'Flamer or Grenade launcher' and 'Plasmagun or Meltagun', which would be nice. I'd also love it if they could take a Heavy Flamer in place of a heavy weapon.
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
A lot of the problems I think with Veterans and Infantry Squads is there being not much distinction. Vets get better BS and a few more special weapons, but survival wise they die like regular infantry squads and have the same morale. Infantry squads lack mass, unable now to be made in larger sizes so less suitability. It also make certain units even more priority for opponents, aiming for squads with meltas. This would be fine if such squads could survive better. Your looking at usually half the squad dead after someone shooting at it and more from morale without a commissar, and from my experience that is first turn usually.
That's why in part a sense conscripts are so big theses days. They can survive after the first turn and still be able to shoot and be at least somewhat offensive against the opponent. Meanwhile everything else is dead.
Another thing, there are just better options. Why pay for Veterans when you can get scions, which do the job flat out better and are only troops, saving that elite slot for commissars or ratlings, a platoon commander, or something else entirely.
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Post by: ross-128
I think platoon commanders would be fine if they were in the HQ slot. While 20 points does make them a slightly less efficient source of orders, being in the HQ slot would make them a slightly cheaper HQ tax.
So the choice between CC and PC would become "is he there for the orders or the HQ tax?"
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Post by: Future War Cultist
vipoid wrote:Yeah, that's accurate. Even aside from the stat differences, Platoon Commanders pay 20pts per order, compared with 15pts per order for the CC. I think platoon commanders should really be 15pts.
I agree. Making them 15pts would help them out a lot. They issue half the orders, so they should cost half the points. I'm open to the idea of moving them to HQ too.
vipoid wrote:A couple of questions:
1) If you upgrade the Infantry to Veterans, would they still be troops?
2) Would this really solve anything? I mean, if people are taking veterans instead of Infantry squads and you replaced the Veteran entry with a Veteran upgrade for Infantry Squads, wouldn't that just make the Veteran Upgrade an auto-take? If you see what I mean.
3) Do you think 3 special weapons (along with a Heavy Weapon and a Heavy Flamer) might be a bit much for basic infantry?
To the first, yes. To the second, good point. It would probably require a limit, which might make the whole thing pointless. I was thinking you'd spend CPs to upgrade them. Which might actually encourage you to spam cheap basic infantry units to get them. To the final point, I was thinking that if it's ok for skitarii it's ok for us. However, I was also thinking that maybe real heavy weapons could be limited to heavy weapon teams, and infantry squads get either a heavy stubber or heavy flamer in addition to 3 specials. I don't think people would like this though.
vipoid wrote:That said, it might be nice if they could take an extra special weapon. I think someone suggested earlier that you could maybe split their special weapons into 'Flamer or Grenade launcher' and 'Plasmagun or Meltagun', which would be nice. I'd also love it if they could take a Heavy Flamer in place of a heavy weapon.
I was thinking of that too. Like grenade launchers don't count and are a separate upgrade.
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Post by: master of ordinance
I can honestly not see a problem with conscripts outside of 'new tank syndrome' and 'alternative meta syndrome'. Simply put this is the first time in ages that Conscripts have been viable and thus Guard players are taking them. None Guard players have not seen them in ages, essentially making them new, and are thus calling them overpowered instead of looking for weaknesses. Given time weaknesses will be found and exploited. Additionally the current Meta still revolves around small armies of elite dudes with great equipment and saves and thus most armies are built to counter small but tough units such as Primaris Marines and the like. As such these armies are equipped with high-cost high-power weapons that are expressly designed to punch through heavy armour and high toughness units, but which lack the sheer volume of shots to kill massed hordes of smaller, weaker, targets. As such it seems to the players running these armies that hordes of cheap infantry are 'overpowered' when they are not.
As to our tanks, there is no denying that the LRBT series needs a lot of love and many buffs. For a start, the basic battle cannon has such a tiny explosive yield that it only performs as well as a hand grenade thrown by a grunt, the Exterminator that needs twin linking and maybe a RoF boost, the Demolisher that scares nothing.....
They all need a lot of love.
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Post by: CplPunishment
Future War Cultist wrote:Help me figure something out here. Would it be far to say that platoon commanders just can't compete with company commanders? The latter has better stats and senior officer. Lists I see just spam company commanders. Is it even worth having platoon commanders?
In a similar vain, ordinary infantry squads sit inbetween veteran squads and conscript squads, lacking the firepower of the former and the numbers of the latter. I have a solution to that which is probably very controversial...make the regular infantry squad have all the options of the vet squad, and "veterans" simply become an upgrade to infantry squads. So you can leave it up to the player to decide how far to go with regards to upgrades.
You are spot on with platoon commanders. As somebody else said, they should be 15
In regards to infantry squads, they are a cheap way to fill out a brigade and get 9 CP.
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Post by: ross-128
I'm of the opinion that conscripts are riding the high end of the power curve just a little bit, mostly due to the change in the wound chart making them more resistant to S5, and the near-ubiquitous AP5 turning into AP0.
This latter is somewhat mitigated by the changes to the cover system making it nearly impossible for them to get cover though, and even if they do it's only a +1 to their save that can be negated instead of a straight 4+/3+ (remember heavy cover?) that can't. So in the vast majority of practical tables they've effectively gone from 4+ to 5+, rather than the 7+ to 5+ most people see when they mathhammer planet bowling ball. After all, the most common type of terrain by far is area cover, which is smaller than a conscript blob (so they can't get entirely within it, which matters now) and doesn't block LoS. Forests, most ruins (the more intact ones can block LoS, the less intact ones don't), waist-high walls, pipes, trenches, etc., all fall into that category.
Heck, I remember in earlier editions, if I really didn't want a conscript blob to go anywhere I could give it an Incoming! order to give them a 2+ cover save. Opponents should be glad they'll almost never see higher than a 5+ now, imagine how hard they were to kill with a 2+.
I don't think it's really quite strong enough to require adjustment though, it just makes them a strong threat that people need to have a plan for, and right now they don't have a plan. The real differences aren't in their durability (even in 7th, a commissar protected them from Sweeping Advance insta-deletion), they're just as durable as they ever were, even slightly less durable in a cover-rich board.
What has changed is their relevance: the rest of the army is actually worth protecting now (at least artillery and other infantry units are), the new wound chart allows them to at least tickle things that would have been immune to them before, and the model-based objective system allows them to seize objectives reliably where before they could only contest at most. As long as the they're irrelevant nobody complains about their strengths, because they could just ignore them both in list-building and on the table.
Of course, I'd rather not be irrelevant TYVM. But people are getting their panties in a twist because before, "take all comers" has pretty much assumed that all comers worth mentioning would be T4+ and have a 3+ or better save. Even in 7th of course one of IG's strongest strategies was to subvert that expectation with power-blobs. Your list didn't necessarily have to be strong, because your opponent would almost never be built to deal with it. Now with the edition change the list is strong, and our opponents are still not built to deal with it. I don't think that situation is likely to last.
"NOBODY expects the Astra Militarum!" isn't the best trait to hinge a faction's balance on, because either people will start to expect it or you'll have to start asking *why* nobody expects it. Though I suppose it's also possible that T3/5+ models have been irrelevant for so long, even GW has forgotten to make models to deal with them. And so the kind of high-volume S3 weapons that would be ideal for that are quite rare outside of the lasgun itself.
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Post by: BaconCatBug
Plasma needs to be increased in points, even if it's only for Scions. They are paying the points balanced for BS4+ models when they should be paying BS3+ prices, 7 vs 13.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
That's why I think it was wrong to make blast attacks a random dice roll whilst still requiring a roll to hit. It should have been an increase in relation to the target units size. A battlecannon for example could have had 6 attacks basic with D3 damage, increasing to 12 attacks if the target unit has 10 or more models. Statistically, only half of those attacks ever hit. That's your variable.
Also, another thought about grenade launchers. What if their strength was increased to 4 and 8 respectively? You could say that the grenade they shoot is a bigger version of the thrown one. With my other suggestion, you'd either have 6 strength 4 damage 1 attacks or 1 strength 8 damage D3 attack. This would make the grenade launcher comparable to the flamer and the plasma gun.
EDIT:
Whoops, conversation has moved on.
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Post by: PIUS_2
vipoid wrote:PIUS_2 wrote:
I might have not explained correctly :c
Regiment traits that specialize how your army plays. Getting certain traits together is a good idea with certain army builds but getting all of them, like the ones that contradict each other, at once should be a bad idea. With purely positive traits you would just pick all the traits possible. The imperial guard has a lot of diversity and I just thought that having traits you can mix and match would add more flavor.
I get that but the downsides for these are just crippling and the upsides are so weak as to be meaningless in comparison (the only exception is Sharpshooter).
If you want weak buffs that emphasise flavour, that's fine. If you want stronger buffs that are balanced by downsides, that's okay (but seems weird when other armies are getting straight buffs). However, feeble buffs balanced by harsh downsides . . . why?
I thought they were all decent trade offs if you built certain army lists but I think I just suck at balancing things in my head >_<
I'd still like something that addresses kill points with our small squads and something that gives incentive for officers to "lead by example" or just hide in the back. But I guess those could be fixed with stratagems.
A stratagem that ignores the lost of a non-character infantry unit (with concern to victory points) that cost a certain point value (80 or less?) or power level (4 or less?), and one that gives officers who are in combat extra buffs.
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Post by: ross-128
Eh, there's already a global strategem that auto-passes a morale test. So having one that takes a single model off the test would be both redundant and vastly inferior.
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Post by: PIUS_2
ross-128 wrote:Eh, there's already a global strategem that auto-passes a morale test. So having one that takes a single model off the test would be both redundant and vastly inferior.
I'm bad at explaining, I mean for victory points, having a bunch of squads that are cheaper and die faster then other armies makes missions where the goal is to kill as many units as possible hard for Imperial Guard
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Post by: NenkotaMoon
PIUS_2 wrote: ross-128 wrote:Eh, there's already a global strategem that auto-passes a morale test. So having one that takes a single model off the test would be both redundant and vastly inferior.
I'm bad at explaining, I mean for victory points, having a bunch of squads that are cheaper and die faster then other armies makes missions where the goal is to kill as many units as possible hard for Imperial Guard
Right on the money. Same with Tau drone spam (surprisingly cool and worked if not for it being a no mercy mission).
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Post by: Intruder
ThePorcupine wrote:Multilaser must drop in price to at least the same as a heavy bolter, considering it's equal or worse.
Chimera should drop in base cost at least 5 points. Or allow one embarked model to fire their weapon out of the top hatch. Or both.
Sentinels could use some sort of "weapon stabilizers" or something to allow to re-roll hit rolls of 1 or BS not being affected by moving. Just a little something. Right now it seems stupid to pay 60 points on a single BS4+ lascannon shot when you can have the same for the exact same cost as part of a 10 man infantry squad that can receive orders to reroll 1s and also has a gakload of lasgun shots and ablative wounds.
Taurox prime should go up 5 points or so.
Russ tanks should go down 5 points or so. Or go up to 13 wounds from 12. Or have all their weapons unaffected by moving. Or all 3.
Eradicator nova cannon should be S8, or 48", or both.
Exterminator autocannon should be heavy 6.
Vanquisher battle cannon should be heavy 2 or able to reroll hits.
Creed is a bit too many points for what he does. He should have some additional fluffy ability like adding +1 to your roll if you're trying to seize the initiative. And considering he costs more than two company commanders, he should be able to issue 4 orders up from 3, or give orders from 12" up from 6".
Conscripts unable to receive orders. Boom. Fixed.
Veterans should get doctrines back but they should cost 20 down from 30
Scions 10 points per model up from 9
Plasma gun up to 10 points per gun
Melta gun down to 10 points per gun
Autocannon down to 13 points from 15
Grenadier gauntlet down to 5 points from 10. Why am I paying more for a worse grenade launcher?
Vox cost 3 points down from 5 and now has infinite range
Devil dog melta cannon should be assault d3, not heavy d3
Bane wolf chem cannon down to 12 points from 15 points
Lord Commissar leadership and/or execution bubble up to 12" from 6". What's the point of a lord commissar? It's 20 points more than a regular commissar and does the exact same thing. Nobody's gonna use this guy.
Nork Deddog is not worth 80 points. Lower it down to 60
Valkyries down to 12 wounds from 14. Why the hell does a flying transport have a beefier profile than a main battle tank?
Vendettas need to be in the main codex. And they need BS3+ to justify their cost. They're not throwing out a barrage of missiles and bullets like Valkyries. They're trying to land pinpoint shots.
Deathstrike must go back to the previous edition's way of shooting. It should fire on a 6 or more, not an 8 or more. Right now it's almost impossible to fire it earlier than turn 4. By that point the game is already over.
Please god GW listen to this man. For the most part. I still think conscripts would be a problem without orders, but better a scalpel than a hammer, eh? Also I've seen Creed used in tournament lists - I think he's fine or at least close enough to fine to not warrant a change.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Yeah, some really good suggestions there. Personally I think commissars and lord commissars could be combined into one entry that sits nicely in the HQ section. The marines don't have separate entries to differate between the different librarian ranks for example. But that's just me.
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Post by: Robbert Ambrose
Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
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Post by: Aenarian
 Robbert Ambrose wrote:Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
Just like GW has forgotten most of the factions? Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines next, probably followed by Death Guard, Thousand Sons and probably some other marine variant (or popular xenos) in september-october. I don't believe we'll see our release before november and probably not before Christmas.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Aenarian wrote: Robbert Ambrose wrote:Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
Just like GW has forgotten most of the factions? Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines next, probably followed by Death Guard, Thousand Sons and probably some other marine variant (or popular xenos) in september-october. I don't believe we'll see our release before november and probably not before Christmas.
Given that barring Sisters the Imperial Guard are the oldest faction in the game model wise i dont think that the other factions have any room to complain.
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Post by: SuspiciousSucculent
Quick question, do you think making grenade launchers indirect fire weapons would be enough to make them worth taking? They are often used to arc grenades at things in cover in real life, so it would be somewhat justifiable, and it would go some way towards making the grenade launcher unique rather than just being a bad plasmagun or a long range frag grenade.
I'm just not sure it would be enough and might be too wacky.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
It's not a bad idea. It would definitely give them a defined role, but could you justify it? My instinct tells me they're direct fire weapons.
I still say the strength should be bumped up to 4/8. That would make it a bit like a long range flamer in frag mode and a sort of plasma gun in krak.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
Robbert Ambrose wrote:Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
IG and Tau are October releases.
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Post by: Aenarian
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:Quick question, do you think making grenade launchers indirect fire weapons would be enough to make them worth taking? They are often used to arc grenades at things in cover in real life, so it would be somewhat justifiable, and it would go some way towards making the grenade launcher unique rather than just being a bad plasmagun or a long range frag grenade.
I'm just not sure it would be enough and might be too wacky.
Most likely not. It would give them some additional use, but how much time do your GL-squads spend behind LoS cover and how much of it do you have to spare (as mortar teams, Basilisks etc. take up some space)? Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the source for this statement is?
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Post by: ChargerIIC
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
master of ordinance wrote: Aenarian wrote: Robbert Ambrose wrote:Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
Just like GW has forgotten most of the factions? Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines next, probably followed by Death Guard, Thousand Sons and probably some other marine variant (or popular xenos) in september-october. I don't believe we'll see our release before november and probably not before Christmas.
Given that barring Sisters the Imperial Guard are the oldest faction in the game model wise i dont think that the other factions have any room to complain.
Uh, are IG?
I know for sure some other specific models out there are very, very old.
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Post by: daedalus
The plastic cadian/catachans have been around since at least 4th edition as far as I know. I think the plastic catachans are older, but I'm not 100% sure.
I think all of the loyalist marine sets have been updated since (especially if you call going to "finecast" an update). Maybe not the Black Templar stuff.
Eldar Guardians and pathfinders are probably going to be fairly old. Might be close to guard if not older.
Dark Eldar have had updates.
Tau have definitely had updates. Are the current Fire Warriors new or was that a repackage?
Chaos might still have some old stuff. Abbadon's been around for a while.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Got an idea for a strategem. Allow all laspistols and lasguns in a unit to become AP -2 for one turn as they crank the guns up to full charge. How many CPs would you charge for that?
Also today I worked out a simple combat doctrine system for both infantry and vehicles. Almost 12 options, pick two of them (only one marked with an * can be taken) and apply this to all <regiment> infantry. It was things like Auxila (pick either ogyrns, ratings or rough riders. Officers can issue orders to them), mechanised (officers can issue tank orders to chimeras, tauroxes, hellhounds and sentinels. This would a * option), light infantry (can deploy anywhere on the board within 9" of a table edge and at least 9" away from enemy units. Another * option). Basically, if I can do this in a few hours GE can do it, so combat Doctrines please GW!
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
daedalus wrote:
The plastic cadian/catachans have been around since at least 4th edition as far as I know. I think the plastic catachans are older, but I'm not 100% sure.
I think all of the loyalist marine sets have been updated since (especially if you call going to "finecast" an update). Maybe not the Black Templar stuff.
Eldar Guardians and pathfinders are probably going to be fairly old. Might be close to guard if not older.
Dark Eldar have had updates.
Tau have definitely had updates. Are the current Fire Warriors new or was that a repackage?
Chaos might still have some old stuff. Abbadon's been around for a while.
I'm not sure.
I think Termigaunts/Hormagaunts and Berzerkers are quite old, Red Terror is also really old, I think, unless they finally discontinued him.
Fire Warriors have ad a new kit, but I'm not sure about Crisis suits, I think they might have just had a reboxing.
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Post by: Merellin
Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits both had new kits. As for Imperial Guard, I'm not sure if this is true, But I once heard that the Catachans where one of the first plastic kits that GW ever made for 40k, And they are still the same kit.. Not sure it is true, But thats what I heard...
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Post by: Future War Cultist
It is true. I remember the kit coming out. It was still the 90s. Eldar Guardians are also quite old but have aged far better.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: master of ordinance wrote: Aenarian wrote: Robbert Ambrose wrote:Any indication that IG will be seeing a release anytime soon anyway? So far it seems GW have all but forgetten them.
Just like GW has forgotten most of the factions? Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines next, probably followed by Death Guard, Thousand Sons and probably some other marine variant (or popular xenos) in september-october. I don't believe we'll see our release before november and probably not before Christmas.
Given that barring Sisters the Imperial Guard are the oldest faction in the game model wise i dont think that the other factions have any room to complain.
Uh, are IG?
I know for sure some other specific models out there are very, very old.
Cadians are a 2000/2001 release
Catachans are a 1998/1999 release
The current Leman Russ kit is essentially the old kit with some new addons and plastic sponsin weapons
The Chimera kit is the old kit with a new turret
Ratlings are ancient
Rough Riders are mid 90's models
The only new stuff that we have are the new storm troopers, hellhounds and Ogryns.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
I thought ratlings were updated in the last decade or so? Fine cast versions.
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Post by: daedalus
master of ordinance wrote:
The current Leman Russ kit is essentially the old kit with some new addons and plastic sponsin weapons
The Chimera kit is the old kit with a new turret
Ratlings are ancient
The only new stuff that we have are the new storm troopers, hellhounds and Ogryns.
The tanks have some quality of life changes too. Treads on the LR became a little less obnoxious to assemble, and the sponson weapons are much improved (and all present).
The new Chimera kit's side armor was reduced in number of pieces to assemble, and the treads were MUCH better to assemble. Those came from the hellhound kit, which was also a redesign, though I don't know when that one happened exactly. Chimeras also become maybe about a half centimeter more narrow as a result of the new sides. It was not much, but just enough that some of them fit into some of my battefoam in places where the others won't without rubbing. The top of the Chimera is also a new mould, since it has the notch for the turret instead of the pinhole for the old one.
So it wasn't like it was completely unchanged, but cosmetically they're almost indistinguishable other than what you pointed out.
I do think that both of the command squads are newer than the infantry kits, at least by some amount of time.
There were also two types of ratlings, as far as I can tell. The newer ones had bigger heads and slightly larger rifles. Both were metal and I'm guessing the obviously ancient ones I have are, like, 2nd edition era, while the others are maybe 3rd/4th.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
They replaced the old type chimera chassis in the basilisk with the new type but the gun remains the original. It should be easy to replace it with a new gun that could also be assembled as a medusa siege gun or a griffon heavy mortar.
Also, should the IG now receive grav weapons? My gut says no but you might disagree!
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Post by: Panzergraf
No, Steel Legion came out around that time (Armageddon campaign), plastic Cadians are more recent (Eye of Terror campaign). At least in my mind they are still "new-ish" models, but actually thinking about it they're getting old. I'm getting old...
If they're going to re-do the plastic Cadians, or release a series "generic IG" plastic models, I'd like something that more resembles the older metal Cadians.
There's no need for new Russ or Chimera models yet. I apprieciate that they made the new-ish models look like the old ones so they don't look weird next to each other.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
You just reminded me that the old metal cadians are actually better looking than their plastic replacements! If those were made in plastic with a gun that resembles the one carried by the Death Korps I'd be all over them.
And I think the plastic cadians are from around 2003?
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Post by: Firefox1
Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
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Post by: vipoid
I think Leman Russ should move slower (even when undamaged) but have the stabilisers for all weapons. The whole point is that they're slow but steady.
I think the Executioner Plasma Cannon should be firing 3d3 shots, with any 1s inflicting a single mortal wound (when overcharging).
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Post by: Desubot
Firefox1 wrote:Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
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Post by: Arbitrator
Panzergraf wrote:
No, Steel Legion came out around that time (Armageddon campaign), plastic Cadians are more recent (Eye of Terror campaign). At least in my mind they are still "new-ish" models, but actually thinking about it they're getting old. I'm getting old...
If they're going to re-do the plastic Cadians, or release a series "generic IG" plastic models, I'd like something that more resembles the older metal Cadians.
Yeah, Cadian kits were from 2003. I should know because they released the same week I wandered into GW and started the hobby. I also feel too old now... dammit.
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Post by: Firefox1
 Desubot wrote:Firefox1 wrote:Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
Hope they hear you.
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Post by: Future War Cultist
Looking at Iron Hand, I'm wondering if the IG should have more cyborgs? Perhaps this could be a thing for vets?
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Post by: argonak
Desubot wrote:Firefox1 wrote:Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
They already have that for the turrets though. I guess putting it on the sponsons would be nice, but I don't think we should be buying a tank purely for the sponson weapons. Right now the main guns are just perception wise too weak. Analytically, I know it only costs 22 points and is generally far better than a lascannon, but it just feels weak.
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
argonak wrote: Desubot wrote:Firefox1 wrote:Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
They already have that for the turrets though. I guess putting it on the sponsons would be nice, but I don't think we should be buying a tank purely for the sponson weapons. Right now the main guns are just perception wise too weak. Analytically, I know it only costs 22 points and is generally far better than a lascannon, but it just feels weak.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
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