Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
bullyboy wrote: Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.
That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.
Not having to wait 8 years for an update. . . I'm just giddy.
Galas wrote: I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?
He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.
Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.
That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.
Galas wrote: I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?
He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.
Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.
That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.
are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!
Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.
Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.
If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?
That's statistically unlikely for Rowboat there. Possible sure, but don't throw him in and expect that to happen all the time.
His real power is giving Twin-Linked and Shred to all Ultramarines. That might be worth a bump to 400 points or just making his re-roll for To Wound only affect close combat instead of all wounding.
Rowboat is the Spiritual Leige, and Ultramarines the flagship army.
GW has never been shy about its favouritism. Expecting them to actually price everything fairly might be too hard a stretch, especially if it concerns the Boys in Blue.
If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.
The buffs alone is worth 200~250 points easily
The command points alone is worth 150 points easily
Eldenfirefly wrote: I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?
That's statistically unlikely for Rowboat there. Possible sure, but don't throw him in and expect that to happen all the time.
His real power is giving Twin-Linked and Shred to all Ultramarines. That might be worth a bump to 400 points or just making his re-roll for To Wound only affect close combat instead of all wounding.
Is it...?
Let's see... Knight is T8 24w 3+ Save... No Invuln? Really?
Yea, guess it is!
Actually...
6 * 3 = 18, right off the bat we know that it's impossible unless at least 2 of the wounding rolls are 6s for the additional mortal wounds.
However it is definitely... possible!
Maximum potential damage being 6 * 6 = 36
Also, this Hand of Dominion Melee Profile is kinda of sucky...
Ascalam wrote: Rowboat is the Spiritual Leige, and Ultramarines the flagship army.
GW has never been shy about its favouritism. Expecting them to actually price everything fairly might be too hard a stretch, especially if it concerns the Boys in Blue.
yeah cause we all know Ultramarines have dominated the scene for ages...
ohh wait they haven't.
Believe it or not, though he is very strong, there are things that can kill Rowboat Girlyman in the game. Abbadon, Genestealer Patriarchs/Broodlords, Swarmlord, and Yncarne stand a decent chance of killing him in CC as long as they get the charge. The trick is to have volume of fire and multi-damage attacks to get around the 3++ save.
Ranges is a lot trickier. Apart from superheavies, the options are limited. Two or three Vindicares will kill him eventually, but you need a lot of heavy weapons shots to guarantee a kill. Hilariously, Magnus is one of the best ways to kill Girlyman at range. The potential for 3D6 mortal wounds fairly regularly means he will instakill Guilliman on an average roll.
Rowboat coming back is powerful, but he's no Saint Celestine. It's only a 50/50 chance he comes back at all, and he only get a max of 2/3 of his normal wounds.
For his cost, Rowboat Girlyman is power but not unbeatable. I'd say he's fairly coated for a combination buff character and CC beat stick.
I'm really not seeing him in that many competitive lists. I've seen several of our tourney marine players wanting buff bubbles, even a dedicated Ultras player, instead just reach for a cheap captain and toss in an LT next to him. With the new stratagems, you can now toss a couple CP and make the cheap captain a super-cheap chapter master.
He's cool and all, but being stuck walking and really wanting to get to melee to really earn his keep I think is keeping him off the high-end competitive radar. I can see how melee armies going against him would feel he's a bit ridic though, as they basically put him right where he wants to be.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
What I think is incredibly silly is that the bland rank-and-file necrons also sport ld10. Random cannon fodder necrons are, each and every one of them, the strategic equals of freaking primarchs.
Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.
And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.
And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.
Maybe, but considered from another POV it's actually benifitcal, not all of RG's abilities impact ultramarines.
if you where running Imperial fists, for example, you could take Gulliman as a LOW, and he'll still give you a "re-roll 1s" bubble, and +1 to advance and charge testsin addition to the 3 CPs if he's your warlord. meanwhile your Fists can, as they are part of a seperate detachment use their chapter tactics. (and gulliman, depending on the precise wording of it, may benifit from his own Ultramarine CTs)
niv-mizzet wrote: Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.
And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.
Maybe, but considered from another POV it's actually benifitcal, not all of RG's abilities impact ultramarines.
if you where running Imperial fists, for example, you could take Gulliman as a LOW, and he'll still give you a "re-roll 1s" bubble, and +1 to advance and charge testsin addition to the 3 CPs if he's your warlord. meanwhile your Fists can, as they are part of a seperate detachment use their chapter tactics. (and gulliman, depending on the precise wording of it, may benifit from his own Ultramarine CTs)
Yeah that's true, but it doesn't change the fact that he WILL eat an entire detachment himself. When you only have 3, that's a hefty price.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.
I'm not the one being silly.
Isn't Asurmen something akin to the equal of The Emperor for Eldar, and is still 9
Galas wrote: I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?
He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.
Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.
That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.
are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!
Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.
Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.
If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.
For around the same price as Rowboat I can field:
1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary
The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).
Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.
Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.
That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.
That's not incredible, it's appalling.
Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?
I heard that one time, Guilliman was eating in a diner and someone dropped a spoon, and Guilliman flipped out and killed the entire town.
Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.
That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.
That's not incredible, it's appalling.
Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.
That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.
That's not incredible, it's appalling.
Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
No kidding. It would go against every standard for balance in competitive gaming. The important thing is that they are actively soliciting feedback - see the rapid speed at which we have seen FAQs.
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...
The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...
The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.
Yeah, they really should have released playtest versions of the game prior to the codices. The Indices should not have been printed materials, let alone paid.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
What I think is incredibly silly is that the bland rank-and-file necrons also sport ld10. Random cannon fodder necrons are, each and every one of them, the strategic equals of freaking primarchs.
bullyboy wrote: Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings
bullyboy wrote: Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.
That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.
Not having to wait 8 years for an update. . . I'm just giddy.
Honestly i hope they continue and bring all the codex out in a timely manor, getting the game in a good standing For the future
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...
The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.
Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...
The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.
Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works
I'd argue he also has a fundamental misunderstanding of how play testing works. as do most of the people who scream that any errors is "proof" they didn't play test properly.
Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.
Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...
The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.
Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works
bullyboy wrote: Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings
I would literally never even consider running him at that value. You could just always upgrade a captain to a chapter master and bring a LT if you wanted to mimic his aura, and in doing so save up to or even over 300 points depending on how blingy you want the characters to be. Saves a detachment slot too. See also the Pedro-star above.
He should be priced competitively enough to run in a good list. I don't even see him at events right now. Maybe he just happens to be buried underneath all the brimstone horrors when I happen to walk by?
bullyboy wrote: Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.
Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings
I would literally never even consider running him at that value. You could just always upgrade a captain to a chapter master and bring a LT if you wanted to mimic his aura, and in doing so save up to or even over 300 points depending on how blingy you want the characters to be. Saves a detachment slot too. See also the Pedro-star above.
He should be priced competitively enough to run in a good list. I don't even see him at events right now. Maybe he just happens to be buried underneath all the brimstone horrors when I happen to walk by?
I suspect when the codex hits we're more apt to see salamanders (who won't need the buff buble as much) and raven guard being the top contenders.
I think salamander tactics will only be used in very TAC lists where the assault and shooting elements will be very divided from each other therefore losing out on that bubble.
But I haven't seen any really good TAC lists yet. They all still focus on shooting,
Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works
Feel free to illuminate me, then.
Or don't. I don't really care, frankly. GW have had 20 years now to get this right. They're still making the same mistakes they were making 20 years ago. The fact that they're fixing them more quickly is certainly an improvement, but it's a long way from being incredible. If I slice my finger every single time I use a pair of scissors, the fact that after the 147th time I work out that going and getting a bandaid straight away instead of waiting for a day and a half isn't a particularly impressive achievement. At some point, you would expect that I would learn how to use the damn scissors.
I think his points are about right. Considering - marines suck in melle and in order to buff shooting units he has to stand on the back lines. He can not utilize his melle power and buffing abilities except for maybe 1 turn (if the enemy is coming at him).
Don't get me wrong - he is one of the best values in the game and I think he elevates Ultramarines to the strongest chapter BUT hes not magnus level broken. I could see an increase to maybe 400 points - but after that - I think I'd be better off taking 3-4 HQ's.
Also - rerolls are not as effective in this game compared to 7th. rerolling after modifiers makes rerolls much less effective if you have minus to hit for whatever huge amounts of sources offer this stuff.
I played a game yesterday against Marines with Guiliman. He had a relatively balanced list that was competitive but fun to play against...except for Guilly.
I, on the other hand, was trying something silly - 3 WraithKnights, 2 of which were the Skathach WKs.
Despite dropping in a deleting his 2 Las Preds (the 2 units I saw as the biggest threat to my WKs), he managed to immediately return the favor and drop 2 of my WKs with the rest of his force.
This included 2 Rifle Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and 3-4 marine units with Plasma and Grav.
He should not have been able to do this, but with everything re-rolling hits AND wounds, his army had essentially double the firepower.
Guilly is only appropriately costed if you take his re-rolls away, otherwise he basically doubles you army's firepower for free.
Galas wrote: I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?
He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.
Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.
That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.
are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!
Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.
Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.
If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.
Italicized comment is anecdotal evidence. While possible, it is statistically unlikely. I had Abbadon one game smash a buffed up Swarmlord after being charged. While a game changer, I would -never- expect that to be a common occurance. As many people have stated already, Guilliman has a distinct lack of appearance in competetive lists/events. Other than the mortal wounds on 6's and the reanimation, a group of other characters can mimic his abilities for less or similar points, and don't require a separate detachment to take them. And for the most part, to fully take advantage of the buffs he gives, Rowboat is stuck anchoring a gunline, so you're unlikely to see him perform those amazing feats of "One-shotting a Renegade Knight after being charged".
As for 'not knowing how this game works', I understand it just fine. Almost every other named character hits on 2+, and have re-rolls of 1 they can take advantage of. Magnus can. Azreal can. Abbadon can. So that's nothing special. Other than Magnus, the other two I mentioned cost at least 100pts less than Guilliman. So he is paying that 100pts for the buffs and extra CP's.
Played him once myself, he put approx 19 wounds on my wraith Lord in one round of combat. His gun alone is outstanding, then that sword....ouch.
It's the rerolling all wounds that is OTT. Reroll wounds of 1 would be far more reasonable. And that Pedro Cantor star? Gully would bitch slap it like it wasn't even there.
I was obviously joking, yes. Magnus and Guilliman are one of the most powerfull units in the game. And I don't find that as a bad thing. They SHOULD be powerfull. But they should pay for that.
Guilliman should go up like 20-25% in points. Magnus, the same.
And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.
Personally I prefer small adjustement to reach the sweet spot instead of balancing from one extreme to the other. I understand that when the only balance changes you do are 5 years apart, you can't do small steps.
But with the new "faqs" system to rebalance the game, they can do changes every month, or two or three.
Galef wrote: I played a game yesterday against Marines with Guiliman. He had a relatively balanced list that was competitive but fun to play against...except for Guilly.
I, on the other hand, was trying something silly - 3 WraithKnights, 2 of which were the Skathach WKs.
Despite dropping in a deleting his 2 Las Preds (the 2 units I saw as the biggest threat to my WKs), he managed to immediately return the favor and drop 2 of my WKs with the rest of his force.
This included 2 Rifle Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and 3-4 marine units with Plasma and Grav.
He should not have been able to do this, but with everything re-rolling hits AND wounds, his army had essentially double the firepower.
Guilly is only appropriately costed if you take his re-rolls away, otherwise he basically doubles you army's firepower for free.
-
I think we all can agree that WK are pretty terrible in this edition. They need a point reduction. They aren't hard to kill. If we are talking equal power level stuff. If you took 3 hemlocks and parked them 60 inches away from the powerball. You could easily Nape all Gullis support and he can't do gak against a flyer. As always there are good units and bad units.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.
Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.
Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.
305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)
4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....
305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)
4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....
Sorry, it's not close, not at all.
Why did you take a garbage apothecary? Prim lieutenant I think is only rerolling wounds in CC. Basically remove both of those. Just take Azreal and a bunch of las cannon devs. Your firepower will be almost as good because you have 4 additional las cannons in your aura and you will be much harder to kill. Also - Azreal fills and HQ requirement - Gulli is a lord of war. So he must also take antoher HQ to run a real army. Since guillis auras are so good - all the other aruas are wasted - so basically your HQ is a tax at this point.
I'm not going to comment on how good or not, or how over/under costed or not he is, but to the point of not being seen in competitive lists, he appears at the ETC 22 times out of 194 lists. That's about 11.5% of all the lists, across all factions. I'd hardly call that "never seeing him".
Yeah - anyone playing ultra marines is taking gulliman - I'm not debating that. Azreal will be is most DA armies. Magnus will be in most if not all thousand sons lists.
You are really just talking about army popularity looking at how many times you see these guys and tournaments.
And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.
Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather St. Celestine was just toned down a bit, rather than made excessively expensive. e.g. drop her strength by a point or two, drop her attacks to 5, knock off a wound or two, make Healing Tears require an Act of Faith. Any of those, really.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.
Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.
Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.
TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".
Unit1126PLL wrote: I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.
Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.
Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.
TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".
No kidding.
His durability, as a character, is astonishing. It's essentially "immune to the game", and by the time you kill everything else he's immune to what you have left through saves + ressurection + being able to murder most of the threats himself.
I won the game against him, but I was shocked at how it was - most armies have important characters and whatnot, but I felt like I was moving mountains to go after Guilliman and I still didn't even get him to fall over the first time.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.
Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.
Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.
TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".
Yeah, it's a bit weird when characters with more survivability than many tanks still aren't considered durable enough for you to be allowed to shoot them.
Honestly though, I think the wound cap was made too high. I think 7 would have been a better shut-off point. 8-9 wound models tend to be much larger than standard infantry and really shouldn't be able to hide amongst them.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.
RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.
RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.
Except that "failing it a few times" leaves him with 5 or 6 wounds left... hell, he could fail it a 'few times' twice over and be fine.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.
The issue is that he's also the best buffbot in the game.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
That might be bearable if you weren't also banned from shooting him. Because apparently the most elite infantry in the galaxy are unable to distinguish between a guardsman and someone the size of a dreadnought.
GW might as well have just given him an 'immunity to everything shield'.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.
The issue is that he's also the best buffbot in the game.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
That might be bearable if you weren't also banned from shooting him. Because apparently the most elite infantry in the galaxy are unable to distinguish between a guardsman and someone the size of a dreadnought.
GW might as well have just given him an 'immunity to everything shield'.
You're right, we should just increase his points to 700 so that no one will use him. Primarch or not, he should be easy to paste across the battlefield.
As an elite army, Space Marines don't have the models to screen RG forever, and with all the lascannons, flyers, Knights and melta running around these days, he's far from invincible. Smite hurts him too.
Go check Tabletop Tactics's newest video, RG really doesn't last too long being shot at.
And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.
Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather St. Celestine was just toned down a bit, rather than made excessively expensive. e.g. drop her strength by a point or two, drop her attacks to 5, knock off a wound or two, make Healing Tears require an Act of Faith. Any of those, really.
Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST. But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.
Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of that sort of stuff. Let's leave aside for now that virtually everything is a beast in the fluff.
The thing with making Living Saints that ridiculously strong is that it removes any tension and also any concept of heroism. The latter in particular is something GW seem completely unable to grasp. In order to be heroic, a character has to be fighting against great odds. There is nothing heroic about a Mary Sue killing everything in her path because the writers made her stupidly overpowered.
Galas wrote: But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.
But surely the entire point of Living Saints is that they are normal humans or sisters who have ascended to angelhood? Hence, by elevating them to such ludicrous heights, you remove the entire point of them. They might as well just pop into existence from the Universe of Plot Contrivances.
I mean, Living Saints are already dangerously close to being Mary Sues, surely it would be better if they were brought down a peg, rather than just becoming the epitomy of such?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: You're right, we should just increase his points to 700 so that no one will use him. Primarch or not, he should be easy to paste across the battlefield.
As an elite army, Space Marines don't have the models to screen RG forever, and with all the lascannons, flyers, Knights and melta running around these days, he's far from invincible. Smite hurts him too.
Go check Tabletop Tactics's newest video, RG really doesn't last too long being shot at.
He doesn't have to last long. If you're building around keeping him safe, you can put 50 conscripts and a commissar for 180 points between your army and his and you get to go feth yourself as far as ever killing him in a reasonable game while also defending yourself from another unit. Those conscripts could be lined up 48" in front of him and you still can't shoot him.
Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of that sort of stuff. Let's leave aside for now that virtually everything is a beast in the fluff.
The thing with making Living Saints that ridiculously strong is that it removes any tension and also any concept of heroism. The latter in particular is something GW seem completely unable to grasp. In order to be heroic, a character has to be fighting against great odds. There is nothing heroic about a Mary Sue killing everything in her path because the writers made her stupidly overpowered.
Galas wrote: But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.
But surely the entire point of Living Saints is that they are normal humans or sisters who have ascended to angelhood? Hence, by elevating them to such ludicrous heights, you remove the entire point of them. They might as well just pop into existence from the Universe of Plot Contrivances.
I mean, Living Saints are already dangerously close to being Mary Sues, surely it would be better if they were brought down a peg, rather than just becoming the epitomy of such?
I understand what you are saying, but personally I don't mind, after years and years of the bad guys being a bunch of Mary Sues destroying everything (Until they reach a bigger Mary Sue) for the """"""""good""""""" guys to have something to compete.
I can agree that Living Saint's shouldnt be "I appear, we win, wohoooo!" but I don't think is making them weaker how they should make them better characters. A Living Saint represents the strugle of a martyr that has suffer a great loss or pain for others and his faith in the emperor is untouchable. Once they become actual Living Saints, they are no more than an avatar of the Emperor's Wrath.
To me they aren't actually characters once they do the final step to become Living Saint's. The part of them that is interesting is HOW they become Living Saints.
Thats why I didn't like how in Gathering Storm, Celestine actually speaks with Greyfax and other people like she is a normal woman. She should be basically a Force of Nature.
I understand what you are saying, but personally I don't mind, after years and years of the bad guys being a bunch of Mary Sues destroying everything (Until they reach a bigger Mary Sue) for the """"""""good""""""" guys to have something to compete.
Granted, but I'd rather see things actually improve, rather than them just switching which side the Mary Sues are on.
I can agree that Living Saint's shouldnt be "I appear, we win, wohoooo!" but I don't think is making them weaker how they should make them better characters.
Out of interest, what are you basing their strength on? I mean, in past editions they never had better than S5. I don't think that would be unreasonable in 8th. Nor would losing a wound and/or attack.
Here's the thing, I think they should be good in combat - I just think their current profile is a bit much and too far beyond the infantry they are supposed to have risen from.
I get where you're coming from though, so what about this as a possible compromise: What if we get a 'generic' Living Saint entry which is a bit weaker (S5-6, 5-6 wounds, 5 Atttacks, no bodyguards) but can perhaps be customisable to some degree? We could then have St. Celestine as a more expensive and powerful Living Saint, who also has access to her two bodyguards.
While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.
The Prince of Excess wrote: While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.
This. If he's rerolling lascannon and other such shots against you, kill the guns. Rg's auras mean jackall when he's not surrounded by dudes using them, and he doesn't upgrade their durability at all. After they're dead you can pepper him all day, throw countless chaff at him, steal an objective with two dudes...
305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)
4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....
Sorry, it's not close, not at all.
Why did you take a garbage apothecary? Prim lieutenant I think is only rerolling wounds in CC. Basically remove both of those. Just take Azreal and a bunch of las cannon devs. Your firepower will be almost as good because you have 4 additional las cannons in your aura and you will be much harder to kill. Also - Azreal fills and HQ requirement - Gulli is a lord of war. So he must also take antoher HQ to run a real army. Since guillis auras are so good - all the other aruas are wasted - so basically your HQ is a tax at this point.
You really missed the point. I was trying to build a set of characters that had similar abilities to gulliman and price them out.
And, no, there is no tax. Spend 85pts to get Greyfax to deny 2 psychic powers a turn. Plenty of HQs that don't replicate gulliman abilities
1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary
The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).
Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.
1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary
The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).
Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.
Sounds about even.
What? Apothecary doesn't stand Pedro up
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?
How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?
Hmm, that should probably get asked for an FAQ. Best not let Pedro ever get to that point, then.
I'd always assumed that you needed at least one model in the unit to still be alive, in order to target it with the apocathery, but I could be wrong.
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.
RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.
It is fine to be great so long as you pay the points.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.
Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.
Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.
Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.
Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.
If they didn't reduce his wounds to 9, he would be shot off the board turn 1 in every game. Killing the army around him, as already mentioned, is the best way to go.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.
Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.
Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.
If they didn't reduce his wounds to 9, he would be shot off the board turn 1 in every game. Killing the army around him, as already mentioned, is the best way to go.
Pretty much. And honestly, he isn't that great on his own anyway. If I ever gave him in a blob, it will be Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship time. Let's see what your blob can do against a ton of AP-2, Wounding on 3s, rerolling to hit and Rerolls of 1 to wound, Mr. Girlyman.
RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.
Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.
Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.
But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
.
......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?
seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.
a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
.
......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?
seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.
a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.
fe40k wrote: RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.
Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.
Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.
But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.
Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?
And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.
fe40k wrote: RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.
Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.
Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.
But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.
Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?
And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.
Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.
I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.
From what I can see, IG don't need the help. And if IG or any other IOM force need a primarch, they'll have RG and every other loyalist one in the future to choose from.
fe40k wrote: RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.
Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.
Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.
But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.
Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?
And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.
Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.
I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.
Different factions have different types of units, whoda thunk it. Any discussion about Guilliman's balance aside Chaos/Space Marines are definitely both "real big dudes with real big guns" factions, of course they're going to have the biggest dudes where Imperial Guard instead has the most dudes.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.
It's not interesting. It's pining for an advantage.
No, you can't target him if he's dead because, as a character, he's the only model in his unit. You could use the apothicary to heal him while he's alive, but that's it.
If you can bring a character back from the dead with an apothicary, then Necrons should get to make RP rolls on models in units you've completely blown off the table.
It's quite obvious how apothicaries are supposed to work.
The Prince of Excess wrote: While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.
This. If he's rerolling lascannon and other such shots against you, kill the guns. Rg's auras mean jackall when he's not surrounded by dudes using them, and he doesn't upgrade their durability at all. After they're dead you can pepper him all day, throw countless chaff at him, steal an objective with two dudes...
Play against his weakness not his strength.
There are what... 5 objectives to capture most games?
Bobby's blob aint capturing them all, and he cant be everywhere at once.
Focus on VP and not on killing him. Put enough Dakka out there to weaken the blob, while you secure objectives.
fe40k wrote: RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.
Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.
Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.
But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.
Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?
And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.
Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.
I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.
he exists, his name is Robute Gulliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium and Primarch of the Ultramarines. as a Guard player, NOTHING stops you from taking Gulliman (even after your codex comes out as it's detachment limited as Guilliman is a LOW who can be taken seperately) Ultramarines have a slightly better "buff bubble" under Gulliman, but the character is VERY MUCH advantagous for ANY IOM unit. given he can act as a "captain " for ALL IoM units within 12 inches, Gulliman is slightly better for UMs yeah but he can really stiffen a Imperial guard army too
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
.
......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?
seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.
a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
.
......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?
seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.
a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with that reroll to hit and wound already.
Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.
And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with tkhat reroll to hit and wound already.
Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.
Two things:
1. Why did you Fall Back with the Wraithblades? With the support of Yriel and the Wraithlord (you did but the Ghostglaive, right?) they could have done a lot more damage to Guilliman than with shooting, especially with psychic support.
2. Either your opponent rolled unbelievably well for his saving throws, or your Wraithguard couldn't hit then broad side of a barn. Either way, your experience described here isn't otherwise very likely.
It's also worth noting that, as per the latest FAQ, you cannot field that army as Ynnari.
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.
Yeah, pretty sure he can't be targeted unless he's the closest thing to your shooters. Which means if the player controlling him knows waht they're doing, the only time you'll be doing damage will be on his terms.
Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.
.
......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?
seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.
a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
Not only that but on a 5+ the CP for the re-roll is reimbursed because of the Ultramarine Warlord Trait.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?
Who would do that, come to the internet and tell lies..girlyman is powerful, but hardly broken/the most broken thing at the moment. ITT people who are bad at the game crying about it
Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.
For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.
And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with tkhat reroll to hit and wound already.
Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.
Two things:
1. Why did you Fall Back with the Wraithblades? With the support of Yriel and the Wraithlord (you did but the Ghostglaive, right?) they could have done a lot more damage to Guilliman than with shooting, especially with psychic support.
2. Either your opponent rolled unbelievably well for his saving throws, or your Wraithguard couldn't hit then broad side of a barn. Either way, your experience described here isn't otherwise very likely.
It's also worth noting that, as per the latest FAQ, you cannot field that army as Ynnari.
The game was before the Ynnari change and the addition of Yvraine changes it back to being legal.
As for the wraithguard....with 5 shots needing 3's to hit, 3's to wound (with rerolls for doom) and that invuln save, the probability of getting a wound through is not that high.
What I don't understand is, we are currently in a world where daemon players are paying full price for a blue horror that only begins to exist after you've already lost another model, and is summoned not where you want him, but where he died. We're also making them pay points for spawn that they might summon with one particular weapon....
And yet, despite all that, 200+ point characters are cool to resurrect themselves wholesale, for free, just because it's random and might fail.
This is the definition of an ability that will always feel bad. Either the characters will be super undercosted (you succeed the roll) or you fail the roll and it feels crappy for the person playing them (I saw a person with St Celestine roll and then reroll 1 for her resurrect, that was a bad time).
Why not slightly reduce the cost of both of them, and make a guaranteed resurrection an upgrade that you pay points/PLs for? Call it "armor of whatever failsafe system" for guilliman and "Vital mission" for celestine.
All these kinds of abilities should be upgrades with a lesser point cost than the full model, including split. It's bizarre that a blue horror you can start the game with and deploy where you want costs as much as one you only get when another guy dies later in the game and spawns at a fixed location, and it's also bizarre that RG supposedly has a 50% chance to be two RGs baked into his point cost. Or rather, that he doesn't, because GWs logic is presumably the same as the other SM fanboys saying "but he's a primarch, he should be awesome (and also able to hide like a coward behind his allies because that gives me more in game power) ((But also he should be undercosted because that gives me more in game power))"
Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...
Or just remove some of his boble rapping and mortal wound him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.
Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the most part He Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or in your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..
He is not 7th Tau broken..
And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army
And no matter All those tales about ohh he oneshotted a knight og gretchen are useless because that was more luck than anything.. i could also 1 shot a knight with a las-pred so is that now broken AS Well and should be more expencive.. nothing is unbeatable you just need some games, watch some bat-reps to find a Way to counter him
ZombieDK wrote: Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...
Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.
Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..
He is not 7th Tau broken..
And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army
3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots
3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!
Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)
ZombieDK wrote: Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...
Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.
Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..
He is not 7th Tau broken..
And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army
3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots
3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!
Your math is off, though not by much. When I feed Vindicares into this calculator:
I'm getting 1.12 wounds average before Deadshots (which should increase it).
Anyway, as I said earlier in the thread, the Primarch may justify a small bump but he's largely fine where he is. He's hard to kill and he crushes monsters in melee. Attack him with hordes or at range and he's not terribly frightening. The auras are what are super strong about him and why a small point buff may be justified.
I had mine get charged by a pack of 20 Purestrains. They cost 200 points (at the time, now 350) and wrecked his face. You can't just look at units in a void like so many on forums do.
I can't believe the fuss over him. How hard is it to kill the meqs around him? Just as easy as if he wasn't there and in fact - if they just took 3 devestator squads in his place - their firepower would be almost equal. The bonus with Guiliman is that you get a powerhouse melle unit to protect your gunline when things are getting dicey. Can't tell you how many time's the harlequins have beat my ultra competitive ultra marines list with guilliman. He really does not do well when he takes 5 fusion pistols right to the face - I assure you.
I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.
The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.
3orangewhips wrote: I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.
The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.
Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.
Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.
3orangewhips wrote: I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.
The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.
Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.
Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.
I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.
now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.
3orangewhips wrote: I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.
The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.
Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.
Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.
I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.
now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.
One thing to consider in the Draigo vs Bubba--Bubba needs a lib buddies to help with smites.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.
Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.
A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.
Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.
Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.
Was Azrael nerfed in the codex? I hadn't heard such.
He went from giving the invul to anything he joined to DA only. Pretty big nerf.
I would argue that the Lion Helm has brought back my old 3rd ed tactic (when it did the same thing), a strong gunline with him in the middle, if i remember correctly i used to use
Dev sqaud 4 lascannon (so expensive)
2 mortis dreads,
2 tac sqauds with plasma cannons (used to be DA only in tac sqauds)
smattering of other things, but the point is, i can use this old tactic again and it seems stronger now, not tourney standard, but cool non the less
ZombieDK wrote: Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...
Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.
Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..
He is not 7th Tau broken..
And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army
3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots
3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!
Your math is off, though not by much. When I feed Vindicares into this calculator:
I'm getting 1.12 wounds average before Deadshots (which should increase it).
Anyway, as I said earlier in the thread, the Primarch may justify a small bump but he's largely fine where he is. He's hard to kill and he crushes monsters in melee. Attack him with hordes or at range and he's not terribly frightening. The auras are what are super strong about him and why a small point buff may be justified.
I had mine get charged by a pack of 20 Purestrains. They cost 200 points (at the time, now 350) and wrecked his face. You can't just look at units in a void like so many on forums do.
ZombieDK wrote: Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / ((1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 2) + (1* 5/6 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 3.5)) = 25.33 Vindicare Shots, divide that by however many Vindicares/Turns you want
3orangewhips wrote: I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.
The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.
Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.
Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.
I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.
now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.
One thing to consider in the Draigo vs Bubba--Bubba needs a lib buddies to help with smites.
Not that much, as if he is not the closest it does nothing to him. That said with the exception of using him as part of a super heavy detachment, or adding him to Air wing, he will need an HQ to be taken anyway, so not really a big deal.
His big downsides are that he generally takes up a detachment, and requires a second HQ in many builds.
vipoid wrote: Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - this is relevent. Calgar has been reduced to 190 points per a french codex release pdf that can be found in the Codex rumors thread.
Calgar gives +2 command points. Has reroll all hits and can deep strike with his terminator armor. I'm pretty sure I'm taking him every game now. I might even sit Guilliman down with calgar at this price.
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.
I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.
I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.
Should units be discounted because of that? Like, since you can't take a Chaos Lord in an Imperial Guard army, should he be cheaper than we believe to be reasonable because 'restrictive'?
Funny to read some of the counters....3 vindicaires (how many points?), and kill the rest of his army!!! Sure, but his support is killing you better due to reroll hits and wounds. There is still 1640pts to spend in that army which can be deadly when buffed by him.
The balance is off, especially with the new codex buffs.
Compare skarbrand to him.
I agree that mortal wounds is the best way to counter him...bypass the 3+ invuln, but smite will be tough unless the player positions poorly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My overall point is that I don't know of another model or unit of that points value that I have to plan so hard to counter. Heck, a 500+pt knight/wraithknight takes far less thought.
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.
I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.
Should units be discounted because of that? Like, since you can't take a Chaos Lord in an Imperial Guard army, should he be cheaper than we believe to be reasonable because 'restrictive'?
lightly discounted - i think it's okay. Flexibility needs to be costed for is all I am saying. A more apt example would be like. Lets say a Korne lord offers specific Korne buffs and can't give nurgle units these buffs. I'm okay with all stats being the same - that the korne buff for korne units is better than a buff from a genreal character that could affect korn and nurgle units. Flexibility should ether cost more points or be weaker than specialized.
If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.
At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.
Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.
Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...
Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
Depends on what synergies they have available. If the IG one can take orders and the Renegades one cannot, then yes it should be cheaper. If it had access to lots of ways to re-roll hits, then yes the Renegades one should be cheaper. It is one of the issues with having similar units across multiple factions.
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
Depends on what synergies they have available. If the IG one can take orders and the Renegades one cannot, then yes it should be cheaper. If it had access to lots of ways to re-roll hits, then yes the Renegades one should be cheaper. It is one of the issues with having similar units across multiple factions.
IG orders don't work on vehicles, but character auras do. Conversely, so do the Character Auras from RG&H work on the RG&H baneblade, though they're different auras.
So you're saying a synergy should be priced into the unit receiving the synergy, not the unit providing?
Does that mean a unit taken without its synergy is overcosted?
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.
Yes but the total number of chaos armies is less than the total number of Imperial armies, so it's still "more restrictive" than Imperium.
vipoid wrote: Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)
Audustum wrote: Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.
Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?
You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.
Yes but the total number of chaos armies is less than the total number of Imperial armies, so it's still "more restrictive" than Imperium.
Did you count? In any case - it's the least restrictive type. Choas keyword is equal to imperuim in terms of restrictiveness.
BlaxicanX wrote: If Guilliman's re-roll auras only effected Tactical Marines, would he be more balanced?
That would definitely help, I think.
That said, I really don't like the all-or-nothing rules for characters at the moment. I can understand it for the infantry-sized ones, but having stuff like Girlyman, Daemon princes, CCBs and the like (models that are far beyond infantry-size) able to hide behind normal infantry just seems really silly.
I think it could be fixed by adding a requirement that closer targets can be ignored if their base size is two or more sizes smaller than the character in question (so, for example, you could hide Girlyman behind 40mm terminators but not behind 25mm infantry). Something along those lines, anyway.
Alternatively, give Girlyman and other large characters some extra wounds and make them fully targetable.
JNAProductions wrote: If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.
At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.
Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.
Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...
Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.
Your math is way off. Re-rolling hits on BS3+ is a 33% increase in total wounds dealt by itself. Re-rolling wounds on a 4+ to wound is a 50% increase by itself. Together that's doubling the total number of expected wounds.
JNAProductions wrote: If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.
At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.
Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.
Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...
Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.
Your math is way off. Re-rolling hits on BS3+ is a 33% increase in total wounds dealt by itself. Re-rolling wounds on a 4+ to wound is a 50% increase by itself. Together that's doubling the total number of expected wounds.
Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.
it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.
Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.
Seriously though, he's over 350 points. He's almost 20% of a 2000 Point list. What don't you want him to do? If you spent that much on a character they better have some good stuff going on.
Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.
it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.
Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.
No, that's not true. There are multiple ways to quantify restrictiveness. I could just as easily make an availability chart that says:
AVAILABLE TO X FACTIONS
0-9: -5 Points
10-15: 0 Points
16-20: +5 Points
Whether Imperium had 20 and Chaos had 16 would be irrelevant. They'd both get the same points application and thus cost the same amount. Nothing says you have to do a full point increase for every single faction; just that you need some way to account for accessibility.
I feel like something went a little wrong here. Did you change the AP on the Axe to -3 and include the -1WS when using the weapon? Using a calculator says it'll take 5 turns not 7.
Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.
it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.
Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.
No, that's not true. There are multiple ways to quantify restrictiveness. I could just as easily make an availability chart that says:
AVAILABLE TO X FACTIONS
0-9: -5 Points
10-15: 0 Points
16-20: +5 Points
Whether Imperium had 20 and Chaos had 16 would be irrelevant. They'd both get the same points application and thus cost the same amount. Nothing says you have to do a full point increase for every single faction; just that you need some way to account for accessibility.
So... Guilliman should also be really expensive, being available to (and even having a buff that works on) all of IoM?
You're missing the point. I'm saying price should include accessibility. I didn't say his current price does or does not do so, that's a whole different issue. I will say his price should account for his accessibility though.
Audustum wrote: You're missing the point. I'm saying price should include accessibility. I didn't say his current price does or does not do so, that's a whole different issue. I will say his price should account for his accessibility though.
Sorry, in the context of your first post on this topic I thought you were saying he shouldn't be more expensive, which I think was part of Xenomancer's argument.
Audustum wrote: You're missing the point. I'm saying price should include accessibility. I didn't say his current price does or does not do so, that's a whole different issue. I will say his price should account for his accessibility though.
Sorry, in the context of your first post on this topic I thought you were saying he shouldn't be more expensive, which I think was part of Xenomancer's argument.
It's O.K. I think he's about right, maybe a small increase to 400 or 450 or a change to make his To Wound aura only effect melee. So there's my two-cents there.
The math on the Guilliman buff is overwhelming. The average use case of a 3+ followed by a 4+ has the output of that shot double. The 3+ 3+ use case is an 80% increase and the 4+ 4+ is a 125% increase.
If Guilliman were 1000 points, you would still have the same gun output on the top of 1 as a 2000 point force without Guilliman if you completely discount his personal output. You would lack the durability of the 2000 point force, though.
At 600 points, Guilliman would still be competitive if you built around him.
Reroll all hit rolls probably shouldn't exist as a buff on any character. Reroll both hit and wound definitely shouldn't exist. If they do have to exist, then they should be costed appropriately.
LiMunPai wrote: The math on the Guilliman buff is overwhelming. The average use case of a 3+ followed by a 4+ has the output of that shot double. The 3+ 3+ use case is an 80% increase and the 4+ 4+ is a 125% increase.
If Guilliman were 1000 points, you would still have the same gun output on the top of 1 as a 2000 point force without Guilliman if you completely discount his personal output. You would lack the durability of the 2000 point force, though.
At 600 points, Guilliman would still be competitive if you built around him.
Reroll all hit rolls probably shouldn't exist as a buff on any character. Reroll both hit and wound definitely shouldn't exist. If they do have to exist, then they should be costed appropriately.
That's at full strength. As units die around him his buff becomes less and less useful.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seriously though, he's over 350 points. He's almost 20% of a 2000 Point list. What don't you want him to do? If you spent that much on a character they better have some good stuff going on.
Well, how about we compare him to a Bloodthirster (which is 340pts). We'll use the Unfettered Fury one, as I think it's the most comparable.
Mobility: The Bloodthirster moves 12"
Girlyman moves 8" (though he does get +1 to Advance and Charge moves)
Bloodthirster wins (but see below).
Durability: The Bloodthirster is T7, has 16 wounds with a 3+/5+ save.
Girlyman is T6, has 9 wounds with a 2+/3+ save and the first time he's killed, he gets back up with d6 wounds on a 4+.
Probably about even here (the bloodthirster has more wounds but its saves are significantly worse and Girlyman can get back up with ~3.5 extra wounds).
Shooting: The Bloodthirster's ranged attack is 8" Assault d3 S7 AP-3 Dd3
Girlyman's ranged attack is 24" Rapid Fire 3 S6 AP-1 D2 (rerolling failed to-hit and to-wound rolls)
Given his rerolls, his extra shots and better range, I think Girlyman wins this one.
Melee: The Bloodthirster has 7 attacks and one melee weapon: S11 AP-4 Dd6 (I'm assuming that he charged, otherwise he's S10 with 6 attacks.)
Girlyman has 6 attacks and 2 melee weapons: 1) S8 AP-4 D3, inflicts d3 Mortal Wounds for each 6+ rolled to wound.
2) S12 AP-3 D3
(both of Girlyman's weapons reroll failed to-hit and to-wound rolls.)
They're pretty close in terms of stats, but I think Girlyman's rerolls wins it for him here.
Buffs: The Bloodthirster hands out his Ld10 to nearby Khorne daemons. They also get +1S and +1A if they charge or are charged.
Girlyman gives all Ultramarine units within 6" rerolls to-hit and to-wound. He also gives you 3 CPs.
No contest. Girlyman blows the Bloodthirster out of the water. Even without the command points, his buff applies to far more units, is useful for both shooting and melee.
So, the Bloodthirster has better mobility, whist Girlyman has better shooting, melee and buffs. However, my results might be a bit controversial, so lets pretend that they're at least equal in melee and shooting.
Here's the thing: Girlyman is completely immune to enemy shooting if he isn't the closest target. Not only that but the bloodthirster's movement, WS and attacks degrade substantially as he gets wounded.
Honestly I would strongly prefer it if most of these re-roll auras were board-wide rather than within 6", compared to what we have now. Obviously that makes them better and things with auras would need to be more expensive, but it gives you more reason to bring same-faction units (since you have a reason to care about units that aren't in your big clump) and also means that you have no reason to clump in the first place, which is just really dumb and boring.
Other kinds of auras like KFF probably still need to be based on proximity, but they should generally be using this "entirely within" wording to limit what they can apply to.
Dionysodorus wrote: Honestly I would strongly prefer it if all auras were board-wide rather than within 6", compared to what we have now. Obviously that makes them better and things with auras would need to be more expensive, but it gives you more reason to bring same-faction units (since you have a reason to care about units that aren't in your big clump) and also means that you have no reason to clump in the first place, which is just really dumb and boring.
This is nuts. The thing keeping Rowboat in check is that to take objectives, they have to leave his aura in the first place.
Dionysodorus wrote: Honestly I would strongly prefer it if all auras were board-wide rather than within 6", compared to what we have now. Obviously that makes them better and things with auras would need to be more expensive, but it gives you more reason to bring same-faction units (since you have a reason to care about units that aren't in your big clump) and also means that you have no reason to clump in the first place, which is just really dumb and boring.
This is nuts. The thing keeping Rowboat in check is that to take objectives, they have to leave his aura in the first place.
I mean, I specifically said it makes things with auras stronger and they should cost more. It just wouldn't be fun playing against these one-big-clump lists even if they were balanced.
Dionysodorus wrote: Honestly I would strongly prefer it if all auras were board-wide rather than within 6", compared to what we have now. Obviously that makes them better and things with auras would need to be more expensive, but it gives you more reason to bring same-faction units (since you have a reason to care about units that aren't in your big clump) and also means that you have no reason to clump in the first place, which is just really dumb and boring.
This is nuts. The thing keeping Rowboat in check is that to take objectives, they have to leave his aura in the first place.
I mean, I specifically said it makes things with auras stronger and they should cost more. It just wouldn't be fun playing against these one-big-clump lists even if they were balanced.
Make the "aura" hit a set number of units max. That fixes both issues.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seriously though, he's over 350 points. He's almost 20% of a 2000 Point list. What don't you want him to do? If you spent that much on a character they better have some good stuff going on.
Well, how about we compare him to a Bloodthirster (which is 340pts). We'll use the Unfettered Fury one, as I think it's the most comparable.
Mobility: The Bloodthirster moves 12"
Girlyman moves 8" (though he does get +1 to Advance and Charge moves)
Bloodthirster wins (but see below).
Durability: The Bloodthirster is T7, has 16 wounds with a 3+/5+ save.
Girlyman is T6, has 9 wounds with a 2+/3+ save and the first time he's killed, he gets back up with d6 wounds on a 4+.
Probably about even here (the bloodthirster has more wounds but its saves are significantly worse and Girlyman can get back up with ~3.5 extra wounds).
Shooting: The Bloodthirster's ranged attack is 8" Assault d3 S7 AP-3 Dd3
Girlyman's ranged attack is 24" Rapid Fire 3 S6 AP-1 D2 (rerolling failed to-hit and to-wound rolls)
Given his rerolls, his extra shots and better range, I think Girlyman wins this one.
Melee: The Bloodthirster has 7 attacks and one melee weapon: S11 AP-4 Dd6 (I'm assuming that he charged, otherwise he's S10 with 6 attacks.)
Girlyman has 6 attacks and 2 melee weapons: 1) S8 AP-4 D3, inflicts d3 Mortal Wounds for each 6+ rolled to wound.
2) S12 AP-3 D3
(both of Girlyman's weapons reroll failed to-hit and to-wound rolls.)
They're pretty close in terms of stats, but I think Girlyman's rerolls wins it for him here.
Buffs: The Bloodthirster hands out his Ld10 to nearby Khorne daemons. They also get +1S and +1A if they charge or are charged.
Girlyman gives all Ultramarine units within 6" rerolls to-hit and to-wound. He also gives you 3 CPs.
No contest. Girlyman blows the Bloodthirster out of the water. Even without the command points, his buff applies to far more units, is useful for both shooting and melee.
So, the Bloodthirster has better mobility, whist Girlyman has better shooting, melee and buffs. However, my results might be a bit controversial, so lets pretend that they're at least equal in melee and shooting.
Here's the thing: Girlyman is completely immune to enemy shooting if he isn't the closest target. Not only that but the bloodthirster's movement, WS and attacks degrade substantially as he gets wounded.
Does this really seem balanced to you?
Actually yes. You can obviously say the Bloodthirster is worse at range combat, but rerolls are super insignificant because both units are hitting on 2+ (so the first round of combat they land the same number of attacks at 5.8, and then the Bloodthirster is landing 5). Plus the D6 damage is much better than a chance for mortal wounds on a 6, all while wounding everything below T6 on 2+.
Plus with higher mobility + Fly, you can really choose your targets. Plus with higher mobility, it's a lot easier to get your wanted aura bonuses where you want them.
Actually yes. You can obviously say the Bloodthirster is worse at range combat, but rerolls are super insignificant because both units are hitting on 2+ (so the first round of combat they land the same number of attacks at 5.8, and then the Bloodthirster is landing 5). Plus the D6 damage is much better than a chance for mortal wounds on a 6, all while wounding everything below T6 on 2+.
3 damage is more reliable and the extra mortal wounds and rerolls easily push it over the top.
What's more, once the Bloodthirster is down to half wounds it's melee becomes far worse than Girlyman's.
I come up with that independently, but if I can think of it, so can many others.
Congratulations? Like, I have no idea what you're trying to do in this conversation. I said something. You made an embarrassing reply that revealed that you hadn't actually read the thing you were replying to. I pointed this out. You brought up an alternative "fix" to the aura problem that several people see as if you were disagreeing with me. I pointed out that actually, no, I already made clear that I thought that was a fine solution. And now you're wanting credit or something for coming up with it first.
Galas wrote: I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?
He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.
Bwahahaha, undercosted? Guilliman is the singel best model in the entire game and you want him to cost the same as Marneus Calgar?
Also: Stormravens caught the nerfblade
I come up with that independently, but if I can think of it, so can many others.
Congratulations? Like, I have no idea what you're trying to do in this conversation. I said something. You made an embarrassing reply that revealed that you hadn't actually read the thing you were replying to. I pointed this out. You brought up an alternative "fix" to the aura problem that several people see as if you were disagreeing with me. I pointed out that actually, no, I already made clear that I thought that was a fine solution. And now you're wanting credit or something for coming up with it first.
Not at all. No credit. I just thought it was interesting that we both came up with the same thing independently.
Actually yes. You can obviously say the Bloodthirster is worse at range combat, but rerolls are super insignificant because both units are hitting on 2+ (so the first round of combat they land the same number of attacks at 5.8, and then the Bloodthirster is landing 5). Plus the D6 damage is much better than a chance for mortal wounds on a 6, all while wounding everything below T6 on 2+.
3 damage is more reliable and the extra mortal wounds and rerolls easily push it over the top.
What's more, once the Bloodthirster is down to half wounds it's melee becomes far worse than Girlyman's.
Plus with higher mobility + Fly, you can really choose your targets.
And with no protection from shooting, any unit can target you.
What's more, once he's down to half wounds, his mobility is no better than Girlyman's, whilst none of Girlyman's stats ever deteriorate.
You're also completely ignoring Girlyman's vastly superior buffs.
You can tout "reliability" but the fact is that the average roll on a D6 is 3.5. You can proclaim it might be worse than that during the whole game, and I can proclaim the opposite. Mortal wounds are unreliable in this instance due to the randomness you proclaim to be the issue for the D6 damage on the Bloodthirster. Difference here is you need the 6 to wound, whereas the Bloodthirster doesn't need such a gimmick.
Also being able to be targeted doesn't matter if something can't shoot at it. A Bloodthirster is going to be in melee, which means unless the target has Fly itself needs to disengage and lose a turn. Not everything is going to be able to shoot at it and take down 14 wounds. You're overreacting to potential protection for Roboute, who will be a 360 Point rock of rerolls and won't do any melee.
JNAProductions wrote:Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...
Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.
He is not~
Appropriately he is a Monster.
The Truth is Girlyman isn't a revived Primarch
He is Cegorach in disguise
vipoid wrote: Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)
I feel like something went a little wrong here. Did you change the AP on the Axe to -3 and include the -1WS when using the weapon? Using a calculator says it'll take 5 turns not 7.
I did factor in the reduced weapon skill
I ignored the +1 AP, 2+/3++. You only need AP-1
EDIT I forgot to include Daemon Prince own reroll aura, I'm going to add it to this post, but I'm not going to bother going back to edit the previous post.
I Think that we would se a change in how people view him in 6 months when we have the first 10 codexes with new rules, army specific relics warlord traits, psyhic powers and strats..
There are some beastly relics and strats in the SM codex.. just look at the BT relic that negates Magnus smite on a 4+
With All the new options the armies are getting there is sure to be some nasty things there AS Well.
And again 360 points for 1 character is a fair Price comparede to the Price you end up paying Per SM unit.. i Think that his Price fits Well inside the dex.. and for people who want to play a pure SM army with no baneblades. Knights, 180 points ig bettalion for 3 CP. I Think it is fair to keep him as he is. Remember not everyone is a turnament player who cheeses, the dex has to accomodate both sides..
And you Will only see him in smurf armies
And my guess is that Magnus Will end up being much tougher when the CSM dex lands
I just wonder how you can't pick out Rowboat on the battlefield when something like a Hive Tyrant can be picked out in an army full of similarly sized and shaped monsters.......
Battlesong wrote: I just wonder how you can't pick out Rowboat on the battlefield when something like a Hive Tyrant can be picked out in an army full of similarly sized and shaped monsters.......
A - SHOOT THEIR LEADER?!
B - Who is their Leader?
A - HOW ABOUT THAT GUY WHO IS 3 FEET TALLER THAN EVERYONE...
B - I don't know... He kinda of blends in with everyone else...
A - HE'S WEARING PURE GOLD TRIMMED ARMOR!
B - I mean... I guess... but like...
A - HE HAS A GIANT F'ING FLAMING SWORD!!!
B - Listen Captain, I'm starting to sense a bit of hostility...
So, the Bloodthirster has better mobility, whist Girlyman has better shooting, melee and buffs. However, my results might be a bit controversial, so lets pretend that they're at least equal in melee and shooting.
Here's the thing: Girlyman is completely immune to enemy shooting if he isn't the closest target. Not only that but the bloodthirster's movement, WS and attacks degrade substantially as he gets wounded.
Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.
I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.
Give us Solar Macharius back, have "fix it all Cawl" bring him back as a clone. Give him a 30" bubble he can issue orders in, have him issue 10 orders a turn and give us +8 Command Points. I will even settle for a 2+/2++ with 7 wounds haha... I am being completely facetious.
In regards to the overall topic "GW does not know balance" - I will respectfully disagree. Power fists are going down to 12 points and thunder hammers to 16. If they can pinpoint little things like that, which would have been noticed well before the community made a stink about it to get the book to print, then clearly they do see the problems.
RG will get his point bump or rule change in due time.
3orangewhips wrote: I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.
Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - this is relevent. Calgar has been reduced to 190 points per a french codex release pdf that can be found in the Codex rumors thread.
Calgar gives +2 command points. Has reroll all hits and can deep strike with his terminator armor. I'm pretty sure I'm taking him every game now. I might even sit Guilliman down with calgar at this price.
I have been using Calgar almost every game already since 8th dropped with his armour halving all damage, and Guilliman has only seen the table twice but if this is true Cagar will be an auto-take for any Ultramarines army. Being that cheap he's very viable as the main HQ in the detachment to which Guilliman is allied.
Daedalus81 wrote: In regards to the overall topic "GW does not know balance" - I will respectfully disagree. Power fists are going down to 12 points and thunder hammers to 16. If they can pinpoint little things like that, which would have been noticed well before the community made a stink about it to get the book to print, then clearly they do see the problems.
RG will get his point bump or rule change in due time.
Well, obviously it's a list... I'm just not sure what it's supposed to be a list for.
Abusing Guilliman mainly. Spam devastators with missile launchers that kill everything through rerolls. It's not the full list, just a brief example of what you can expect to see on the table.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can tout "reliability" but the fact is that the average roll on a D6 is 3.5. You can proclaim it might be worse than that during the whole game, and I can proclaim the opposite. Mortal wounds are unreliable in this instance due to the randomness you proclaim to be the issue for the D6 damage on the Bloodthirster. Difference here is you need the 6 to wound, whereas the Bloodthirster doesn't need such a gimmick.
Actually there are significant numbers of cases where 'reliability' makes a mathematically demonstrable difference, mainly because overkill wounds don't overflow in 8e. Against anything with 2 or 3 wounds, Gulliman has a 100% kill rate with unsaved wounds, but the Bloodthirster has a 1/6 or 2/6 chance to require a second unsaved wound. Without overflow, the extra damage results of the D6 are lost. Given the relative frequency of such models in the game, you could proclaim the opposite, but you'd be wrong.
Well, obviously it's a list... I'm just not sure what it's supposed to be a list for.
Abusing Guilliman mainly. Spam devastators with missile launchers that kill everything through rerolls. It's not the full list, just a brief example of what you can expect to see on the table.
Guilliman and EIGHT full Devastator squads is not a legal list. You would need at least two HQ units to make it legal (for each Heavy Support-focused detachment) at which point this is literally your whole army.
Also, because Devastator squads come with Seargeants, that's a grand total of FORTY models you need to fit within 6" of Girlyman. Hint: This isn't physically possible.
Leaves about 150 points for a vehicle or 10 extra SM members total spread around the squads (ablative wounds).
32 (+8 one shots) re-rolling hit/wound missiles heading downrange is no joke - good odds of wiping out many a vehicle/horde before it reaches you. At least it feels like it would be that way; Missile Launchers are damn solid this edition, and that's before buffs as well.
I don't have the models to try it out, but it seems relatively strong - get some deep strikers in there to tie things up and the game would go a little interestingly; could spend the 150 points on a Conscript circle or a bunch of Ratlings. Would love to see this cheese fight/be fought on the table.
TheNewBlood wrote: Also, because Devastator squads come with Seargeants, that's a grand total of FORTY models you need to fit within 6" of Girlyman. Hint: This isn't physically possible.
6 inches = 152.4 mm Girlyman = 60 mm Area of 182.4mm radius Circle = 104520mm
Area of 180mm radius Circle = 101787mm
Area of Girlyman = 2827mm
Let's say 100,000 mm Area of a Square 25mm base = 625mm
100,000 / 625 = 160 models within 6"
Let's say the source of the Aura is 25mm
Area of 164.9mm = 85426mm
Area of 160mm = 80424mm
Leaves about 150 points for a vehicle or 10 extra SM members total spread around the squads (ablative wounds).
32 (+8 one shots) re-rolling hit/wound missiles heading downrange is no joke - good odds of wiping out many a vehicle/horde before it reaches you. At least it feels like it would be that way; Missile Launchers are damn solid this edition, and that's before buffs as well.
I don't have the models to try it out, but it seems relatively strong - get some deep strikers in there to tie things up and the game would go a little interestingly; could spend the 150 points on a Conscript circle or a bunch of Ratlings. Would love to see this cheese fight/be fought on the table.
vs T7 3+
32 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 58.99 Tank Damage
vs MEQ Frag 32 * 3.5 * 32/36 * 3/4 * 1/3 = 24.88 dead MEQ Krak 32 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 = 16.85 dead MEQ
vs GEQ 32 * 3.5 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 = 58.99 dead GEQ
I would personally suggest dropping 2 squads of ML for Lascannons
(24 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (8 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 62.68 Tank Damage
TheNewBlood wrote: Also, because Devastator squads come with Seargeants, that's a grand total of FORTY models you need to fit within 6" of Girlyman. Hint: This isn't physically possible.
6 inches = 152.4 mm Girlyman = 60 mm Area of 182.4mm radius Circle = 104520mm
Area of 180mm radius Circle = 101787mm
Area of Girlyman = 2827mm
Let's say 100,000 mm Area of a Square 25mm base = 625mm
100,000 / 625 = 160 models within 6"
Let's say the source of the Aura is 25mm
Area of 164.9mm = 85426mm
Area of 160mm = 80424mm
Leaves about 150 points for a vehicle or 10 extra SM members total spread around the squads (ablative wounds).
32 (+8 one shots) re-rolling hit/wound missiles heading downrange is no joke - good odds of wiping out many a vehicle/horde before it reaches you. At least it feels like it would be that way; Missile Launchers are damn solid this edition, and that's before buffs as well.
I don't have the models to try it out, but it seems relatively strong - get some deep strikers in there to tie things up and the game would go a little interestingly; could spend the 150 points on a Conscript circle or a bunch of Ratlings. Would love to see this cheese fight/be fought on the table.
vs T7 3+
32 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 = 16.85 Tank Damage
vs MEQ 32 * 3.5 * 32/36 * 3/4 * 2/3 = 49.77 dead MEQ
vs GEQ 32 * 3.5 * 32/36 * 32/36 = 88.49 dead GEQ
I would personally suggest dropping 2 squads of ML for Lascannons
(24 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3) + (8 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 5/6) = 17.90 Tank Damage
Thanks for the math; that's actually significantly less scary than I thought it'd be - you're wiping out on average, 1 tank a round (unless it's a super heavy, and then you're not even killing it).
MEQ get melted, but that's not too surprising given the sheer volume of firepower; but there aren't likely to be that many marines on the table to begin with.
GEQ are in an interesting spot; sure, you kill a lot of them (almost 2 full Conscript squads), but... so what. I'm estimating a rough number of ~60 Orks dead a round (based on 50 MEQ/90 GEQ); which is maybe two squads.
Overall: Melts infantry, but only 1-2 vehicles a round at best - overall, not too scary, provided you have some armor in your list. Deadly to troopers sure, but that's assuming perfect conditions (range, LOS, not tied up in melee). Still; very versatile - get some deep strikers/first turn charges into that circle though, and things become a LOT different (for one round anyways; Heroic Intervention on Gulliman will go a long way to mitigating this however). That said, it is VERY reliable thanks to long range and all the rerolls, so - you'll be eating that much damage each round unless you can wipe them out quicker (or force them to fall back).
A couple Manitcores/Basilisks plinking away at these marines from behind cover will force them to come to you real quick.
Edit: Is that ~17 tank damage including the d6 damage from the missiles, or is that just the number of shots that aren't stopped by an armor save? If that's not including the d6 damage, tank killing power goes up tremendously (~59 expected wounds output). Of course, that's also idea conditions (T7, SV3+); heavier vehicles will lower this expected result by a large margin.
A couple Manitcores/Basilisks plinking away at these marines from behind cover will force them to come to you real quick.
Edit: Is that ~17 tank damage including the d6 damage from the missiles, or is that just the number of shots that aren't stopped by an armor save? If that's not including the d6 damage, tank killing power goes up tremendously (~59 expected wounds output). Of course, that's also idea conditions (T7, SV3+); heavier vehicles will lower this expected result by a large margin.
HOLY WHAT A MASSIVE MISTAKE!
You're right, I forgot the d6 damage!
I also gave Frag AP-2, Another massive mistake
Everything should be fixed, note to self don't do math while sleep deprived.
I am glad someone worked it out.
I have been sat here for thirty minutes going "well, it looks right to me. But that means the average devastator squad would only do about 2 wounds to a vehicle and yet in our games they quite regularly blow them up. Maybe we are just really lucky?"
I am glad someone worked it out.
I have been sat here for thirty minutes going "well, it looks right to me. But that means the average devastator squad would only do about 2 wounds to a vehicle and yet in our games they quite regularly blow them up. Maybe we are just really lucky?"
I don't see how RG's point cost can be defended.
Hah, Good thing I show my work! I could blame that it was late last night when I posted. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say Girlyman is unfair without at least showing the match without Girlyman.
Honestly the tedium of constantly rerolling hits and wounds with Gulliman is the worst part about him. It would be cool if he could pick at the start of the turn one unit within x" (make it a longer range - 12" for example) and they can reorll hits and wounds. But everything? No brainer. That way the passive but lesser buffs of Lieutenants and Captains are not superseded by him but are a different option.
Also, because Devastator squads come with Seargeants, that's a grand total of FORTY models you need to fit within 6" of Girlyman. Hint: This isn't physically possible.
Uhm wait... why would every model need to be within 6 ?
Isnt it enough to have one model of a unit in the aura ? He is giving his aura to units, not models, right ?
Also, because Devastator squads come with Seargeants, that's a grand total of FORTY models you need to fit within 6" of Girlyman. Hint: This isn't physically possible.
Uhm wait... why would every model need to be within 6 ?
Isnt it enough to have one model of a unit in the aura ? He is giving his aura to units, not models, right ?
Well, obviously it's a list... I'm just not sure what it's supposed to be a list for.
A game of warhammer 40k to be played with those models using the Spearhead and Super Heavy Auxiliary detachments I suspect, though they lack an HQ.
Or just use Auxillarys Detachments and lose the Command Points.
"Oh ****, I have no CP for rerolls!"
CP are used for a lot more then rerolls if you have a codex.
Of which, only one is really worthwhile (Auspex Scan to stop Deep Strike). Others are irrelevant (require models not in list) or are redundant since they give rerolls to hit, or cause mortal wounds which mean nothing when you force wounds.
Arguably the most important stratagem is the standard one that keeps Guilleman alive by rerolling his resurrection. Might be worthwhile taking a cheap HQ just to unlock 6 Devastator Squads.
I am glad someone worked it out.
I have been sat here for thirty minutes going "well, it looks right to me. But that means the average devastator squad would only do about 2 wounds to a vehicle and yet in our games they quite regularly blow them up. Maybe we are just really lucky?"
I don't see how RG's point cost can be defended.
Hah, Good thing I show my work! I could blame that it was late last night when I posted. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say Girlyman is unfair without at least showing the match without Girlyman.
So I played in the first mission of the fate of konor campaign and one of my opponents was using ultramarines with Guileman, first time against him so was really surprised at how powerful he is. My opponent was a friend of mine that plays competitively but doesnt really bring "cheese" lists. He brought mostly primaris with guileman and his chapter ancient keep all of us guys in a bubble, so basically they got rerolls to hit rerolls to wound 9 command points and if they died they get to make one last shot. This game was a mess because i didn't realize that attackers can only score at the end of the game if im in his deployment, he managed to kill both of my razorwings in two turns and in the middle of the game I figured out that its actually not to my benefit to attack his stuff because they always get to make a shot potentially killing or wounding my raiders/venoms.
Game ended on turn 6 because he had gotten 9 kill points where the most I could score was 7, really frustrating game. He always gets to use his command points and being able to recover them is broken. The big thing about guileman in that game was that most he did was shoot things he never made it to combat but just by looking at his stat line it would have been a slaughter.
Talamare wrote: Hah, Good thing I show my work! I could blame that it was late last night when I posted. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say Girlyman is unfair without at least showing the match without Girlyman.
I will say Girlyman adds about ~28 Devastators worth of power.
28 / 4 = 7
7 * 165 = 1,155 points
Guilliman does seem to be the most OP single unit. For comparison sake, this is what the most OP spam unit is capable of. Short version: add up your list's four damage/kill count potentials and this list still exceeds the combined total.
1500 pts of Brimstones
...plus a bunch of HQ tax... irrelevant models to the demonstration.
1500/(2*10)= 75 squads of Brimstones, each casting Smite 1/3 of the time at the cost of a 2 pt model
Since Smite deals 3.5 mortal wounds average... 3 lost models vs 3.5 lost wounds, it always makes its points back even against other Brimstones (unless target has fewer than 3.5 wounds left).
75 * 1/3 smites * 3.5 = 262.5 Mortal Wounds in 1 turn, more than the combined total of wounds Theory Guilliman's entire army puts out.
Would kill over 1/3 of my own 2pt model army. Probably would wreck any other turn 1.
And this is without Auras. Without any model serving as Guilliman. I'm not so sure Auras and Guilliman are the biggest problem in the game.
I think smite deals 2 damage avg, and the range is quite limited.
sossen wrote: I think smite deals 2 damage avg, and the range is quite limited.
Gah, you're right. The range doesn't matter if you line up front line and advance every turn but they are tanky enough to ignore half your shooting anyway.
Talamare wrote: Okay, Here is a tricky one to math out, so let's work it out
What if Storm of Fire Warlord Trait
Wounding Rolls of 6 causes the weapon to gain AP-1
So this is the rule
3/6 results = Normal AP 1/6 results = AP-1
2/6 results = reroll
reroll
-3/6 results = Normal AP -1/6 results = AP-1
-2/6 results = Miss
18/36 + 6/36 = 24/36 Normal AP 6/36 + 2/36 = 8/36 AP-1
4/36 = Miss
Let's take our original result for T7 3+
32 * 32/36 * 32/36 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 58.99
and modify it with new info
(32 * 32/36 * 24/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (32 * 32/36 * 8/36 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 62.68
62.68 - 58.99 = an extra 3.69 Tank Damage
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
You cannot possibly be making this argument in good faith.
What tables are you playing on where sufficient artillery to kill 20-30 MEQs a turn can be hidden completely out of LoS -- if they're visible then why are the Devastators shooting Conscripts -- and a 50-man Conscript squad can get a cover save? Also you need about 24 Basilisks to expect to kill 30 MEQs in a turn, or only 20 if you're re-rolling 1s. That's assuming they're not in cover.
But yes, artillery tends to win games against long-range shooty armies if it can hide completely out of LoS. And missile launchers are not very good against infantry. Everyone knows this stuff already.
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Tournament results are the only measure of balance which matters? I suppose if those tournaments were actually playing the rules in the book it would help but I would still advocate a mixed approach encompassing tournies, math, thinking about theoretical scenarios, casual play etc.
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
You cannot possibly be making this argument in good faith.
What tables are you playing on where sufficient artillery to kill 20-30 MEQs a turn can be hidden completely out of LoS -- if they're visible then why are the Devastators shooting Conscripts -- and a 50-man Conscript squad can get a cover save? Also you need about 24 Basilisks to expect to kill 30 MEQs in a turn, or only 20 if you're re-rolling 1s. That's assuming they're not in cover.
But yes, artillery tends to win games against long-range shooty armies if it can hide completely out of LoS. And missile launchers are not very good against infantry. Everyone knows this stuff already.
It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
A table is 48" by 72"
If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Xenomancers wrote: It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?
Sure, plasma drop squads are obviously very overpowered. Everyone knows this too. A competitive Guard army crushes this Guilliman list because it has nothing to screen the Scions -- 6 squads appear and drop 20 Devastators by themselves. It has nothing to do with Conscripts or artillery or cover and I have no idea why you were bringing these up earlier, and it doesn't speak to whether Guilliman is overpowered. I mean, Guard can do this to most armies, and if you were really taking a Guilliman list you'd probably want some screening.
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
A table is 48" by 72"
If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.
auticus wrote: This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.
They know balance.
They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.
Maybe, but I think if you looked through 40k history most special characters have been considerably overpriced.
They clearly didn't think people would put a parking lot around these special characters. That's the problem.
It should probably be that you get to pick one unit to have the buff. Maybe two at most.
They had FAQs within a week fixing tons of broken problems with the game and even reducing point costs. If they chose not to fix Guilliman after all this time, that choice was intentional.
Xenomancers wrote: It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?
Sure, plasma drop squads are obviously very overpowered. Everyone knows this too. A competitive Guard army crushes this Guilliman list because it has nothing to screen the Scions -- 6 squads appear and drop 20 Devastators by themselves. It has nothing to do with Conscripts or artillery or cover and I have no idea why you were bringing these up earlier, and it doesn't speak to whether Guilliman is overpowered. I mean, Guard can do this to most armies, and if you were really taking a Guilliman list you'd probably want some screening.
This army we are talking about has no screening - it's 40 devs and guiliman. Every deep strike is on a priority target. I mean - this army isn't really good against anything that is considered good.
auticus wrote: This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.
They know balance.
They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.
Maybe, but I think if you looked through 40k history most special characters have been considerably overpriced.
They clearly didn't think people would put a parking lot around these special characters. That's the problem.
It should probably be that you get to pick one unit to have the buff. Maybe two at most.
They had FAQs within a week fixing tons of broken problems with the game and even reducing point costs. If they chose not to fix Guilliman after all this time, that choice was intentional.
Well - on that token they also chose not to reduce the cost of dire avengers - or increase the cost of conscript squads.
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Well, that math assumes the Devastators are in the dead center of the board. Which means they have already given up a turn with reduced BS shooting, possibly any shooting at all if they advanced to get there.
More likely, they are roughly 6" from an edge. If we assume they are still dead center of the 36" then they need roughly 55" range to shoot the corners. That is a 7" space that they would have to move to get into range for.
That particular spot of deployment isn't readily available for the majority of deployment types. Most of the time, the gap to hide in will be bigger.
Then again all that is based on one units range applying pressure. Usually, you are gonna see two which can really widen that threat bubble.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.
Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
A table is 48" by 72"
If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.
Your retort is literally something you already quoted me on?
Xenomancers wrote: Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?
If he had no ability to fight, then sure.
But he also happens to be one of the strongest units in the game for that cost while being untargetable due to his 9 wounds, unlike beefcakes like the Wraithknight, Magnus, or Imperial Knights.
The buffing is kind of just the bonus that makes him not completely useless as he wades into close combat, laughing as bullets go every which way except in his direction. Once he reaches combat, goodbye everything you had there.
And while it's true GW hasn't nerfed conscripts yet, Guard haven't received their codex yet either. The Space Marines have and Guilliman remained the same price in it with no subsequent FAQ to fix that either.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.
Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?
What? I've already shown he basically doubles the efficiency of whatever is under him
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Well, that math assumes the Devastators are in the dead center of the board. Which means they have already given up a turn with reduced BS shooting, possibly any shooting at all if they advanced to get there.
More likely, they are roughly 6" from an edge. If we assume they are still dead center of the 36" then they need roughly 55" range to shoot the corners. That is a 7" space that they would have to move to get into range for.
That particular spot of deployment isn't readily available for the majority of deployment types. Most of the time, the gap to hide in will be bigger.
Then again all that is based on one units range applying pressure. Usually, you are gonna see two which can really widen that threat bubble.
36.1" away at deployment
Upto 6" in each direction of Girly, Girly being 2"
72 - 2 - 12 = 58 / 2 = 29
C = 46.31" without moving
Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.
Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.
Arkaine wrote: Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.
Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.
Ix_Tab wrote: Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?
As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.
Didn't know before I did the math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.
70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.
Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.
Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field
Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.
Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.
It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.
A table is 48" by 72"
If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"
Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.
Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.
Your retort is literally something you already quoted me on?
I'm just restating my point in a different way. I didn't claim there isn't an area on the table that a 48" range weapon can be in range of everything.
I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.
Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?
It is again very hard to believe that you're engaging in good faith. You were talking as if missile launchers are terrible after they move (to try to kill far-away Basilisks or something). I pointed out that actually you still expect to kill a whole bunch of T7 3+ vehicles after moving, with re-rolls. Now you're comparing this to how much damage they'd have done if they'd stood still and shot. But if they could have shot their targets without moving then they'd have done that even with Guilliman present!
Arkaine wrote: Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.
Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.
He has no feel no death. He has a 3++ save only.
Yes he does, he has a 4+ chance to ignore his own death. v This guy knows what I'm talking about.
JNAProductions wrote: Feel No Death as in he can resurrect himself on a 4+. Not Feel No Pain.
So I've read the thread and figured I'd chime in. He is definitely powerful but the points cost is about where it needs to be. I'll defend my case as follows:
1) The vaunted re-rolls are strong but only bring a super large increase when you need 4s or worse to,wound. When you needs 3s and 3s, a cheap captain and LT will only give you less results approximately once every 6 dice. So it increases your bad weapons which normally gives good saves and doesn't matter..
2) What kind of games and boards are you guys playing on when a SM army can all sit around a single model in cover and shoot everything important to your army? LoS blocking terrain is a thing, which means you should get the alpha with the important guns. Objectives are a thing; which means the army has to be mobile and spread out or lose on points which means it loses out on re-rolls.
3) Being a LoW slot and a monster is a significant thing. It means you need to take more HQs which don't contribute firepower to the board and take up more of your list. It also means you can't easily take any other other LoW pieces. Lastly, it means you can't go up or thru ruins and benefit for lots of infantry related buffs (apothecary)
4) His significant buffs are ultramarine only. This impacts unit choice and having to take inferior (imo) chapter tactics.
So ultimately I believe his point cost is about right. He matches his fluff, being one of the most tactical commanders that the universe has ever seen, a monster in combat, and accessible to lead any imperium army. If you bump up the price, he is absolutely untakeable in any army outside of UM, which he is already close to. I can certainly see an argument to be made to drop his reroll everything to just 1s to hit and wound to appease the cries of OP. But let's face it, he is the whole hero of the fluff currently and they want him to make an appearance on the table top. They are going to push the balance as far as they can to make it happen because a living primarch needs to be a monster presence but still have an army to command around him.
if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.
As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.
bullyboy wrote: if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.
As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.
bullyboy wrote: if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.
As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.
Which LOW in particular is under-performing?
WraithKnights. While still good IMO, that is not an opinion shared by most. WKs can cost close to twice Guiliman and can die in the first turn. Guiliman cannot feasibly be shoot at, and even if you can, he is harder to kill than a WK. WKs also do not DOUBLE you army's firepower.
There is a guy in my LGS that plays a fairly balanced Ultramarine list and we tested it against 3 WKs. Guiliman allowed his army to drop 2 of them in a single turn. And that was without his 2 lascannon Predators, which the WKs managed to kill in the first turn. Re-rolling hits AND wounds allowed 2 Autocannon Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and the various Grav/Plasma tactical marines to dish out 48 unsaved wounds/damage to T8/3+sv models in a single turn. Even bolters became a threat
Guiliman by himself is fine, but doubling damage output for even half your army should cost a lot more than he does. He really should give the re-rolls against ENEMY units within 6" of him, not to friendly units near him.
bullyboy wrote: if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.
As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.
Which LOW in particular is under-performing?
WraithKnights. While still good IMO, that is not an opinion shared by most. WKs can cost close to twice Guiliman and can die in the first turn.
Guiliman cannot feasibly be shoot at, and even if you can, he is harder to kill than a WK. WKs also do not DOUBLE you army's firepower.
There is a guy in my LGS that plays a fairly balanced Ultramarine list and we tested it against 3 WKs. Guiliman allowed his army to drop 2 of them in a single turn.
And that was without his 2 lascannon Predators, which the WKs managed to kill in the first turn.
Re-rolling hits AND wounds allowed 2 Autocannon Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and the various Grav/Plasma tactical marines to dish out 48 unsaved wounds/damage to T8/3+sv models in a single turn. Even bolters became a threat
Guiliman by himself is fine, but doubling damage output for even half your army should cost a lot more than he does.
He really should give the re-rolls against ENEMY units within 6" of him, not to friendly units near him.
-
I cant agree - the WK is terrible - need's some real buffs. At least a natural 5++ save and it's shield should bring that to a 4++. Plus it's weapons should be cheaper.
That's my point, though. WKs are over costed and thus under-preform. WKs would not be terrible if they dropped 100pts overall.
Guiliman doubles most of his army's damage output and thus needs a points increase, or to not give out re-rolls like he does.
Guilliman lists aren't even placing in tournaments.
It's all Guard, Tau, and Eldar.
Guilliman is totally and completely restricted to Ultramarines. If he offered that bubble to Imperium, he'd be totally broken, but he offers it to space marines, which are basically bottom tier.
bullyboy wrote: What difference does it make if he's Ultramarines only?
The difference between him fully buffing conscripts, guard barrage tanks and mortar teams, kastellan robots, ratlings, etc. etc.
Mono-marines are a bit weak right now. They still have the "generalist curse" where they pay for non-useful stats, like ws on a devastator for example, and they don't have cheap screen units, which are a huge boon to the armies that do have them, allowing their backfield to essentially operate unopposed and only worry about enemy long range elements, while making short range and assault elements a non-issue for a couple turns.
Don't get me wrong, they aren't in a terrible place, but after adding chapter tactics, they feel somewhere around mediocre, and the lack of a screening unit at the moment really stops them from being stable and sturdy enough to take on 6 round GT's.
Ultramarines can still use conscripts to screen, not every unit has to be buffed by Gullyman, lol. Just the ones that count. The UMs are in no way neutered either, lots of strength in the codex. Of course, I assume everyone is thinking about their spammy list and how it handles Gully. Great.However, I don't want to have to play a broken list just to compete with him. If his points are costed appropriately, a standard list will have an equal chance.
bullyboy wrote: There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.
It's almost as if in a proof of concept we only need flesh out one good example to get an understanding of potential.
