in 40k

I mean he isn't the most powerful character, the primarchs, the emperor, malcador are more powerful than him

The Custodes i would wager are more powerful than him, but many call him a big MS all the time

Because he's none of those things, and yet he's touted around like one.

Essentially, he's just the "Chapter Master" of a rather elite group of Space Marines, with psychic powers, but he's made out like he's this unstoppable warrior, like the Custodes and Primarchs, who are a whole tier above what he should be.

Again, being a Mary Sue doesn't necessarily mean the best at EVERYTHING, it's more just being good at everything and having no downsides as a character. Draigo as a character is literally "he's so pure that he can walk around in the Warp untouched, and he killed Mortarion singlehanded, and he did this, and he did that, and he's the biggest and bestest of the Grey Knights who are the bestest Space Marines, who are like the bestest of all the Imperium's soldiers...".

The Primarchs are given some degree of characterisation, flaws, personalities. They're also the actual Emperor's sons, hence their power. The Custodes are made on such a calibre, they're capable of going toe to toe with Primarchs. Malcador's not a warrior. He's a massively gifted psyker, and the Emperor's right hand man, but that's about it. He doesn't go around killing Primarchs. The Emperor is an actual god. It's kind of expected that he'd be powerful.

Draigo is essentially just a beefier Chapter Master, yet he's made out to be Primarch tier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Okay, before I dive into this, let me say all of his criticism stems from his 5th Edition (ie, original) version, and that his 7th Edition (and presumably 8th) are much revised and toned down.


So his main criticism is that he walks around the warp beating the living gak out of every Daemon he comes across, they don't even bother attacking him now. He pops up now and then to lend a hand then gets sucked back in again. His purity and psychic power is beyond measure.

On its own, this isn't toooooo bad. I say too bad as its personal preference. Some people argue that walking around the warp isn't possible but its the warp, possible and impossible are irrelevant terms. What rubs people the wrong way is that this is one of 3 aspects that lead towards a Mary Sue Character. Mary Sue characters being "He's the leader and because of that he's superior in every single possible way to everyone else in the same group." Being that GK are noted as "the best Space Marines possible," this makes him the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the entire Imperium. Here are the two other aspects.


In addition to his aspect detailed above, he is also touted to be one of the best fighters in the GK history, notably, defeating Mortarion in single combat. The audio drama Mortarion's Heart was written to combat the backlash, because in the original form it sounded like he just smashed a Daemon Primarch with ease, which is goddamn awful. The audio drama clarified and made it more negotiable with many factors lending Draigo help in the feat, but people have longer memories than GW like to believe. In addition, his first incarnation got much beefier stats than any other chapter master. WS7, Str and T 5, 4 wounds, TDA, Storm Shield, Eternal Warrior. Bear in mind that this is late 5th Edition, where other Chapter Masters had WS6, W3 and came with Power Armour and Iron Halos. Plus he ignored all armour saves in CC, and was Str 10 vs Daemons and Psykers, could instant death them even though they were EW. Basically a lot. He was a beefy combat character. Very very beefy. That has been toned down in 7th Ed, to WS7, Str+T 4. He lost grenades and his sword toned down. He still has his 4 wounds and EW, but all CMs have W4 these days, and most take 2+ 3++ and EW anyway. But as I say, people have long memories.

The third aspect is that he is, to be blunt, "the greatest GK in history." He learned more Words of Power than anyone except the first Chapter Lord, (who was later revealed to be a sort of Magnus-possessed Space Marine thing, its complicated and confusing). He rose faster than any other GK. He beat Daemons where Captains and Grand Masters struggled. He was unanimously declared SGM when his predecessor was killed.



Now, any single of those aspects would be fine. SOMEONE has got to be the best fighter out of everybody. SOMEONE has to be the record holding best GK ever. SOMEONE could be pure enough to do what he does. But all together it makes him seem overly overly perfect. And even though the Warp wandering was retconned out of existance entirely, people still have long memories. Even though he's been toned down in combat ability, people still think back to when he was the same Str and T as modern Custodes, even though that version never existed alongside those Custodes.


The modern incarnation of Draigo is actually, not at all Mary Sue. He is representative of Mankind as a whole. He had all the potential, he had just reached the peak of existance and was poised to usher in a new dawn. And just like Mankind's great crusade, Chaos intervened and struck down a promising future and condemned him to a ironic and cruel fate.


But as I say, people have long memories, and even though his fate is no longer canon, or even detailed, people still remember.

GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

 Galas wrote:
GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

No, just no... Being a Mary Sue has much more to it than that. See deadshot's post.

Pretty sure when you live in the warp slaying daemons - and no one else can do that - pretty safe to say he has ascended to a new level of existence. He is essentially god level at this point. Or at the very least - hes Hercules.

Draigo is viewed as a mary sue basically because he was written badly. He was supposed to be a Sisyphean character. He's able to survive the Warp and defeat his Daemonic opponents but he's trapped there. He resists all temptation yet he can't do anything other than fighting reforming Daemons. All the damage he supposedly does is simply reformed. He performs his duty endlessly yet achieves nothing except for those rare instances he is thrust back into the Materium during Daemonic incursions. Even then it's kind of tragic. He may, for a brief time, communicate with other people, perhaps of his own order, for a handful of minutes or hours or days whilst he destroys the very things allowing him to do so and cuts himself off from humanity again. And those moments are scattered through an eternity. He could fight for a thousand years in the Warp then pop out a year from his last time in Warpspace, or he could end up coming out thousands of years later with everyone he knew long dead and he might never even be able to find out. He's forever forced to remove himself from any human connection whilst he fights and eternal, essentially pointless war. And he's so consumed by his duty he can't do anything else other than carry on. He will never know peace, or rest, or contentment.

However, in 5th Edition Matt Ward focussed more on his exploits rather than the tragedy and hopelessness of his position.

It's because he DOES more than some other snowflake's favorite unknown founding non-codex adherent Chapter that nobody cares about.

He's not particularly interesting outside his faith being his shield in the Warp, but he doesn't HAVE to be interesting outside that.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Draigo is viewed as a mary sue basically because he was written badly. He was supposed to be a Sisyphean character. He's able to survive the Warp and defeat his Daemonic opponents but he's trapped there. He resists all temptation yet he can't do anything other than fighting reforming Daemons. All the damage he supposedly does is simply reformed. He performs his duty endlessly yet achieves nothing except for those rare instances he is thrust back into the Materium during Daemonic incursions. Even then it's kind of tragic. He may, for a brief time, communicate with other people, perhaps of his own order, for a handful of minutes or hours or days whilst he destroys the very things allowing him to do so and cuts himself off from humanity again. And those moments are scattered through an eternity. He could fight for a thousand years in the Warp then pop out a year from his last time in Warpspace, or he could end up coming out thousands of years later with everyone he knew long dead and he might never even be able to find out. He's forever forced to remove himself from any human connection whilst he fights and eternal, essentially pointless war. And he's so consumed by his duty he can't do anything else other than carry on. He will never know peace, or rest, or contentment.

However, in 5th Edition Matt Ward focussed more on his exploits rather than the tragedy and hopelessness of his position.

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

He is. He's trapped by M'kar and by extension, Chaos. If the Ruinous Powers really wanted him gone would it be impossible for them to override a Greater Daemon's curse?

Conversely, Marines are all about brotherhood. Depriving one of any real ability to experience would be a horrific experience. They're still capable of emotions otherwise they wouldn't be falling to the Ruinous Powers.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

He is. He's trapped by M'kar and by extension, Chaos. If the Ruinous Powers really wanted him gone would it be impossible for them to override a Greater Daemon's curse?

Conversely, Marines are all about brotherhood. Depriving one of any real ability to experience would be a horrific experience. They're still capable of emotions otherwise they wouldn't be falling to the Ruinous Powers.

They also live for war and Grey Knights should be used to isolation. It's hardly that bad.

I like it when one of the chaos demon books implies slaneesh has curpted him. Can't remember the book. 6th ddition demons?

There was a time when he could hit at s7 ap2 with instant death, whilst enjoying a 2++ save. That definitely made him one of the most powerful characters in the game at the time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's because he DOES more than some other snowflake's favorite unknown founding non-codex adherent Chapter that nobody cares about.

He's not particularly interesting outside his faith being his shield in the Warp, but he doesn't HAVE to be interesting outside that.

I disagree on that. I agree much of the backlash on the ULTRAMARINES, boils down to that, Dragio however has some definate aspects that I can see being issues. getting back to the OPs point,

He isn't the emperor, or a Primarch no, which is honestly kinda the problem. the Primarchs, the emperor etc, they're considered the pinacle so obviously they can get away with a fair bit of over the top stuff "because Primarch" (and even then people grumble about Gulliman) Dragio actually BEAT a Primarch.

Consider this, as far as we know, NO OTHER BEING IN 40K has "single handledly" beat a Deamon Primarch. Gulliman was defeated by Fulgrim when he tried, for example.

BrianDavion wrote:
Consider this, as far as we know, NO OTHER BEING IN 40K has "single handledly" beat a Deamon Primarch. Gulliman was defeated by Fulgrim when he tried, for example.

By comparison, in the 1st Armageddon war, it took an entire company of Grey Knights to take down Angron.

 Niiai wrote:
I like it when one of the chaos demon books implies slaneesh has curpted him. Can't remember the book. 6th ddition demons?

It was implied that silver armored dude walked into slanesshes realm not that it WAS draigo

But basicly Draigo is already a special snowflake to the marines standard and on top of that runs around killing daemons forever and also apparently beat and then carved a name into a daemon primarchs heart.

that kinda nonsense is what makes him a mary sue.

The mary-sue-ness came almost exclusively from the 5th edition fluff written by matt ward.

In essence he was a paragon among paragons, so pure that he was incorruptible even in the realm of the chaos gods. He also went around beating up Primarchs and carving his name into their chests, rejecting all temptations of slaanesh, and even his "trapped in the warp" thing was used to his advantage, where he apparently gained the near-mythic ability to teleport to wherever the Grey Knights needed him to roflstomp the current daemon incursion of the day, before disappearing back into the warp.

Every other bit of fluff written about him is far less fanboyish in what he did, namely they showed that those feats not only came at great personal and spiritual cost, but ultimately meant nothing because nothing is a constant in the Warp. Even his teleporting around was shown to be more opportunistic rather than him just magically knowing when he was needed.

The reason the fanboying was found to be exceedingly bad was because he was specifically created by the guy fanboying about him, which made everything about the guy feel like Matt Ward patting himself on the back for writing the most pure character to ever grace warhammer.

When 7th edition rolled around, a lot of his exploits were expanded upon or dropped entirely. Another thing was that it more or less confirmed that very few people actually know about his exploits.

I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

RedCommander wrote:
I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

I mean come on. he is a space marine that beats up a daemon primarch. how many even named characters can do that to a normal primarch.

 Desubot wrote:

RedCommander wrote:
I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

I mean come on. he is a space marine that beats up a daemon primarch. how many even named characters can do that to a normal primarch.

.. maybe Abbaddon, MAYBE. when Morty comes out I'm gonna definatly be comping stats to see if "even under ideal conditions" Dragio could beat Morty

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

No, just no... Being a Mary Sue has much more to it than that. See deadshot's post.

Deatshot is very right in all what he has said. But thats doesn't negates my point. 80% of the characters in GW are complete Mary Sues. Someones are less flagrant that Khaldor Draigo, I agree, but they are still characters where their only characteristic is being "The BEST of the BEST", with 0 personality or other traits or even flaws.

And I don't say this to defend his codex page in 5th edition by Matt Ward. That was awful. But people on internet is ignorant and as Deadshot said just remember what they want to remember. They ignore all the fluff and lore that has come after 5th edition toning down Kaldor to a much reasonable level. They just "mmumumuh Matt Ward", because people loves to drink the hyperbole kool-aid of the internet.

Because 5th edition's fluff was a thing. The internet does not forget; the internet does not forgive.

I don't actually blame Ward entirely for this. He wasn't the only one that worked on this. In fact, a lot of blame actually falls on the other two writers for the bad fluff, too. He just got unfortunate enough to get stuck with the popular opinion of being the one to blame.

He was the awful cherry on a codex full of Super Robo Baby Carriers and Khorne Grey Knights. While the Codex did have a few good bits, it was one of the things that actually stopped me playing. And I played Grey Knights until that Codex was released. Perhaps if there hadn't been so much to hate in that Codex, Draigo would have gotten off a little lighter...but there was.

But yeah, basically he brutally murdered a Primarch and carved his mate's name on his heart. He set fire to Nurgle's Garden and smashed up lots of other Chaos stuff. And somehow Chaos itself couldn't stop him, just undo what he did when he sauntered off again.

The Mortation thing really got the goat of a lot of people. Mortation is a 10,000 year old deamon primarch. Even assuming he'd been hit by a Nova Cannon, he should have reduced a single Grey Knight to a smear, and that's assuming his bodyguard was all dead.

It took some major retconning to make the story even begin to make sense without making Mortation look like the biggest wuss in existence.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
He was the awful cherry on a codex full of Super Robo Baby Carriers and Khorne Grey Knights. While the Codex did have a few good bits, it was one of the things that actually stopped me playing. And I played Grey Knights until that Codex was released. Perhaps if there hadn't been so much to hate in that Codex, Draigo would have gotten off a little lighter...but there was.

But yeah, basically he brutally murdered a Primarch and carved his mate's name on his heart. He set fire to Nurgle's Garden and smashed up lots of other Chaos stuff. And somehow Chaos itself couldn't stop him, just undo what he did when he sauntered off again.

The Mortation thing really got the goat of a lot of people. Mortation is a 10,000 year old deamon primarch. Even assuming he'd been hit by a Nova Cannon, he should have reduced a single Grey Knight to a smear, and that's assuming his bodyguard was all dead.

It took some major retconning to make the story even begin to make sense without making Mortation look like the biggest wuss in existence.

This retc9nning I've already mentioned and I'm gonna bring it up again because people like to ignore things.

First off, Mortarion isnt a Primarch but a Daemon Primarch. So many advantages, but also limitations come with that. In particular, Draigo was armed with the name the Emperor intended for him, which became his True Name. True names are the most powerful weapon against a Daemon. It can used to enslave or bind a Daemon against its will and to your own, or in this case, stun Mortarion long enough to strike him down. Another disadvantage being that he's weak to words of banishment and Daemonbane weaponry like every other Daemon.

Finally, Draigo has a destiny. There is a story in 7th Ed codex and I cant pick it out because my copy is 100 miles away, but if someone can cite it for me please that'd be great. In this story, a Lord of Change (Fateweaver maybe?) launches invasion and it is Draigo, as a lowly Battle Brother, who survives to cut down the Daemon where all others; captains, paladins, terminators,are cut down around him. The exact reason being that the Daemon couldnt see him, appearing as "a black shadow across its vision" because "his life was promised to another." Draigo's fate in the warp was bound to Mkar and so, no other Daemon is able to kill him. Not Fateweaver and not Mortarion either, because destiny is a real thing in the Warp and it is binding.


This also feeds into Draigo's inability to be killed or corrupted by the Warp. As his fate is tied to Mkar, and Mkar was given True Death by another's hand, Draigo's fate is left in tatters and unable to break the curse.

The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Like I said earlier in the thread. Driago is actually a god. GK geenseed is made directly from the emperor. It is quite possible that Driago is Big E - reincarnated - perhaps unknowingly so. It's the only way to describe his power.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Like I said earlier in the thread. Driago is actually a god. GK geenseed is made directly from the emperor. It is quite possible that Driago is Big E - reincarnated - perhaps unknowingly so. It's the only way to describe his power.

If he was really a god he'd be killed by weaklings all the time. As a 40k god deserves apparently.

 Deadshot wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

So essentially you're saying "You're right, he does do all this godlike stuff, but none of it matters."

That's super Mary Sue. Beating the dick out of Mortarian for fluff-contrived reasons is Mary Sue. Genociding the collective entirety of the Immaterium, whether it comes back or not, is Mary Sue.

It's almost made worse that it comes back, because then he just does it again. And again. He literally slaughters his way through unreality, and unreality has the common decency to come back so he can have another jolly go!

His actions may be pointless "in-universe" but from our perspective looking in he just looks like a Mary Sue. Someone who blenderizes all opponents who dare stand before him, even if they get up again, because he's the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best with no downsides.

And no, 'the demons come back' is not a downside. That's just more fuel to the fire. A SoB would love for the daemons she could effortlessly slay to come back, because that's just more heretics to purge.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

So essentially you're saying "You're right, he does do all this godlike stuff, but none of it matters."

That's super Mary Sue. Beating the dick out of Mortarian for fluff-contrived reasons is Mary Sue. Genociding the collective entirety of the Immaterium, whether it comes back or not, is Mary Sue.

It's almost made worse that it comes back, because then he just does it again. And again. He literally slaughters his way through unreality, and unreality has the common decency to come back so he can have another jolly go!

His actions may be pointless "in-universe" but from our perspective looking in he just looks like a Mary Sue. Someone who blenderizes all opponents who dare stand before him, even if they get up again, because he's the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best with no downsides.

And no, 'the demons come back' is not a downside. That's just more fuel to the fire. A SoB would love for the daemons she could effortlessly slay to come back, because that's just more heretics to purge.

No, essentially I'm saying there's nothing godlike about him. He doesnt change reality and he has no influence on anything. He doesn't genocide anything either. He doesn't go slaughtering entire continents of Daemons. He''ll come across a wandering band of Daemonettes out to seduce some poor fool, and kill those 10 daemons. Occassionally he'll wander into a Bloodthirster's lair and kick ass but (and this next part was also canon) most Daemons just avoid him now. He just wanders around doing bugger all most of the time. Looking for Daemons to slay but there's none because they avoid him. Not because he'll kill them but because they come back and he'll slaughter them so instead of wasting effort trying, they just let him be a paperweight. He has so much strength, but no power or influence as well. Why both burning the gardens and tearing down castles anymore? They rebuild and regrow. His entire existance is utterly pointless. In universe, out of universe. "Blenderizes all opponents" is irrelevant when no one tries to fight him.

He was Mary Sue because he had the best of the best of the best with no downsides. Way back when. That's no longer the case. He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.


And yes, the Daemons come back is a downside. An SoB who loved Daemons coming back is a heretic, and would probably fall to Slaanesh due to her revelling in her favourite activity. The point of the GK is to protect humanity from Daemons. Currently that means fighting them, with the final goal of ending the threat. You can't do that if they just come back. His entire existance is futile. He has no purpose and no place and is doomed to forever perform his pointless task because he's trained to, but never actually changing anything.

He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

Yes. He is not longer a Mary Sue if your argument revolves around the Warp wandering.

I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.



Let me note other examples


Justicar Thawn's original fluff has him rising again after being killed by Nkari on Malan'tai. He dies and is revived a few days later. This is the start of his fluff in 5th Ed. In 7th, he is killed and no mention whatsoever of his revival. If he was revived, this is a significant point to be made and would be made, if still canon. He is never mentioned again despite his original incarnation doing many notable feats, such as bursting out from Kugath the Plaguefather's belly, defending a fallen Grand Master alone and unaided against a horde of bloodletters, and many more. If these are never mentioned and nothing is to suggest he revived, can we honestly assume that this is still the case?




Okay, here's better evidence:

In 5th Ed, in his 2nd fight with Mkar it specifies that his "Nemesis Force Sword" was broken by the Reborn. He later defeated a Bloodthirster in the Warp, drove corruption from its axe with purifying flame and reforged his sword with it. While not explicitly stated, this is likely how it became the Titansword, seeing as it was originally just a NFS.

In 7th Ed, the Titansword is an ancient weapon given to the Grey Knights by Malcador, and was passed down through many hands, said to be forged by the Emperor Himself for a Unification War general. Those sorts of stories don't come about without SOME semblence of truth. What we know for fact is that its an almighty weapon and extremely ancient. Meaning it was already the Titansword when he fought Mkar. If he reforged it in the Warp, it would no longer be the Titansword in any capacity. Further supporting this, in 7th Ed Mkar did not break his sword. This means he did not reforge it, if he fought that same Bloodthirster. This means at least one aspect of that fluff has been confirmedly retconned. However, that whole chunk of the fluff no longer exists, so its not canon. Plain and simple. If the next Space Marine codex wrote out the part about Shrike becoming Raven Guard master, leaving only "RG CM dies on X planet," is Shrike still CM? No.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

JK Rowling is a bad one to back up your theory seeing as all she does is retcon and refuse to make new fluff


In response, if JK Rowling was asked to give a brief overview of Harry Potter's entire plot, and stops at the point where , is that a retcon or is that not a retcon? What if she re-releases an anniversary edition of The Deathly Hallows and stops it there? End of the book. Retcon or not a retcon?


Not mentioning is the wrong phrase. Its deliberate omission of a crucial fluff element. That's retcon.

The way I see it - when fluff is trash - it gets discarded.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The way I see it - when fluff is trash - it gets discarded.

That covers most of 40k though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

JK Rowling is a bad one to back up your theory seeing as all she does is retcon and refuse to make new fluff


In response, if JK Rowling was asked to give a brief overview of Harry Potter's entire plot, and stops at the point where

Spoiler:

Voldemort murder-spells him in the Forbidden Woods and he does that weird Dumbledore purgatory scene

, is that a retcon or is that not a retcon? What if she re-releases an anniversary edition of The Deathly Hallows and stops it there? End of the book. Retcon or not a retcon?


Not mentioning is the wrong phrase. Its deliberate omission of a crucial fluff element. That's retcon.

If the rerelease is explicitly a replacement not an incomplete copy yes. This is an incomplete copy.

Yeah - most of 40k fluff is awful. In fact - most people acknowledge the fact that most every source we read from in 40k is essentially propaganda in some way shape or form.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

Yes. He is not longer a Mary Sue if your argument revolves around the Warp wandering.

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

 Deadshot wrote:

This retc9nning I've already mentioned and I'm gonna bring it up again because people like to ignore things.

First off, Mortarion isnt a Primarch but a Daemon Primarch. So many advantages, but also limitations come with that. In particular, Draigo was armed with the name the Emperor intended for him, which became his True Name. True names are the most powerful weapon against a Daemon. It can used to enslave or bind a Daemon against its will and to your own, or in this case, stun Mortarion long enough to strike him down. Another disadvantage being that he's weak to words of banishment and Daemonbane weaponry like every other Daemon.

Finally, Draigo has a destiny. There is a story in 7th Ed codex and I cant pick it out because my copy is 100 miles away, but if someone can cite it for me please that'd be great. In this story, a Lord of Change (Fateweaver maybe?) launches invasion and it is Draigo, as a lowly Battle Brother, who survives to cut down the Daemon where all others; captains, paladins, terminators,are cut down around him. The exact reason being that the Daemon couldnt see him, appearing as "a black shadow across its vision" because "his life was promised to another." Draigo's fate in the warp was bound to Mkar and so, no other Daemon is able to kill him. Not Fateweaver and not Mortarion either, because destiny is a real thing in the Warp and it is binding.


This also feeds into Draigo's inability to be killed or corrupted by the Warp. As his fate is tied to Mkar, and Mkar was given True Death by another's hand, Draigo's fate is left in tatters and unable to break the curse.

But none of that was in the original version of events. Initially, he was simply a super powered Mary Sue who was just sooooo awesome because Matt Ward. That hatred has held on no matter how they've tried to flesh him out and make things better. He left a bad taste in many people's mouths and GW working overtime on PR just goes to show how terrible his initial version was. Two codexes and a short story still haven't made him liked. First impressions do count, and his was awful.

Personally, I think I still have far more rage for Khorne Knights, but Dragio certainly didn't make me giddy with glee and joy. His model was nice, but pretty much all the Grey Knight models are. About the only model I'm less likely to take is Rowboat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

HAVE YOU SEEN MY SWORD!!!!

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

I disagree, this arguement might hold water if you where talking about the Ultramarines hate. but yeh Dragio IS kinda badly written. he's a bit over the top. mind you 40k is always a bit rediculas so I don't mind it, but there are valid reasons to complain about dragio

Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

That's not true in any way.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Draigo has suffered negative consequences though. If one was to go by 5th Edition fluff he's trapped in the Warp doing nothing of any importance because he pissed of a Daemon too much. He's possibly the greatest Grey Knight ever but he can hardly do anything to help the Imperium. If anything he'd have just been another pawn in the Great Game, directed by one or another of the Ruinous Powers towards their enemies. Mary sue's are supposed to achieve great things but Draigo is restricted from that by his Sisyphean task.

Also he's great at smashing Daemons so skillful as a Psyker and a warrior but I don't know if his skill at other areas is ever demonstrated. Maybe leadership?

And again I'm putting cut off from humanity as a negative especially as Space Marines crave brotherhood.

I think Draigo might be a cautionary tale of the power of the warp.

In the warp metaphor is real. As the paragon Grey Knight, Draigo had immersed himself in the warp; having unmatched knowledge, everything of his essence was to battle and defeat daemons.

Unfortunately, his affinity with the warp grew too extreme, and now it dominates him; he is now forever immersed in the warp battling daemons.

I almost feel like Draigo's story is the start of a back story to a daemon prince of Malice (-the incarnation of the self loathing/self destructive aspect of chaos) or even Malice himself!?

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

I disagree, this arguement might hold water if you where talking about the Ultramarines hate. but yeh Dragio IS kinda badly written. he's a bit over the top. mind you 40k is always a bit rediculas so I don't mind it, but there are valid reasons to complain about dragio

He's not over the top for what he is. Grey Knights are super Space Marines, and Draigo is the supreme commander of those super Space Marines. What else are you expecting? Him to be bad at his job?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

Bingo. He's a supreme Space Marine that specializes in fighting Daemons. He's trapped in the Warp and staying alive but not really doing anything else.

So what makes this a Mary Sue? That he's not dead yet?

He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

I'm glad they retconned him. I always wondered what he ate and when he slept in the warp. A Space marine needs to both eat and sleep. The longest active period any SM went without sleep and nourishment was supposedly Captain Cortez of the crimson fists. His recorded lies on 6 weeks (42days). I assume it nearly killed him. Draio would litteraly have to eat chaos and rest (both of his brain halves) at some point. Removing the ridicilous warp stuff sounds much better.

Old Draigo of 5th ed was the Mary Suest Mary Sue the ever Mary Sued. Now he seems more plausible.

 Nerak wrote:
I'm glad they retconned him. I always wondered what he ate and when he slept in the warp. A Space marine needs to both eat and sleep. The longest active period any SM went without sleep and nourishment was supposedly Captain Cortez of the crimson fists. His recorded lies on 6 weeks (42days). I assume it nearly killed him. Draio would litteraly have to eat chaos and rest (both of his brain halves) at some point. Removing the ridicilous warp stuff sounds much better.

Old Draigo of 5th ed was the Mary Suest Mary Sue the ever Mary Sued. Now he seems more plausible.

Dude lives in the warp. The warp is a weird place.

I never minded him. I just see him as a tribute to Samurai Jack and it lets me gloss over the dumber things.

Hah! I'd never thought of Draigo as a Daemon Prince of Malice before

Also, as far as i'm concerned Anakin did precisely what he was prophesised to do: bring balance to the force. The Jedi mistakenly believed that meant 'make everyone good', but balance means an equal amout of good and bad. The Jedi were dominant, so the Sith needed to rise to being balance.

I know this is going to sound dumb but I read this thread more out of curiosity. I was just getting my feet wet in 5th and never really followed much Grey Knight lore, even though the models were awesome. But regardless of whether Draigo is stuck in the warp per 5th or just got sucked in per 7th, who the hell is actually leading the Grey Knights right now? And iirc doesn't he show up in Pandorax? is that before or after he's sucked into the warp?

Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

My mental image is a bunch of them standing around waiting for the dice to stop spinning. Made me laugh.

 Desubot wrote:
He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

Lots of characters (especially Space Marines) rarely lose. It's part of their engineering as Heroes, and in this case literal engineering for the Space Marines. Sure they lose on occasion (Calgar lost all his limbs, Yarrick lost his arm, Helbrecht lost a hand, Ghaz lost his body, Straken lost an arm...) but we don't care about those losses and like all these characters. I'm glad we don't have so many Lamenters and Crimson Fists. That makes those few that suck but still keep going a little special.

 ILegion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

My mental image is a bunch of them standing around waiting for the dice to stop spinning. Made me laugh.

Cocked. Roll again...

 Desubot wrote:
He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

This. Draigo being trapped in the Warp is not a character flaw. It has zilch to do with his character (i.e personality/abilities). It would be a sucky situation, were it not for the fact that being trapped in the Warp provides the perfect environment for all of his abilities to be demonstrated to their fullest. Effectively the "downside" of being trapped in the warp just serves as a narrative device to demonstrate how amazing and powerful and kewl he is, rather than to, say, make a commentary on the inherent flaws of adhering to a super strict philosophy blindly.

It is akin to Rama being trapped in the apartment block in The Raid. He is in a bad situation but that situation serves to highlight his exceptional abilities rather than expose character weaknesses.

in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

He did. He specifically prohibited anyone to come with to Acralem to face Mkar the second instance, he went alone. His reasoning was that his fate was sealed and no sense letting others get in the firing line. But if he had brought others perhaps they'd have been able to change things.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

He did. He specifically prohibited anyone to come with to Acralem to face Mkar the second instance, he went alone. His reasoning was that his fate was sealed and no sense letting others get in the firing line. But if he had brought others perhaps they'd have been able to change things.

thats why I mentioned it, it's arguably a case of Dragio walking into danger he proably should have instead delegated someone else for.

Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

 Mangod wrote:
Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

real space.

 Mangod wrote:
Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

In real space, armed with righteous vengeance and the Daemon's True Name, and literal destiny on his side.

And to be fair, Mortarion did kill the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights in the same battle.

I love that "literal destiny" is somehow being touted as a reason he's not a Mary Sue.

In other words, his Mary-Sueness made canon is a reason he is not mary sue.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love that "literal destiny" is somehow being touted as a reason he's not a Mary Sue.

In other words, his Mary-Sueness made canon is a reason he is not mary sue.

It is. Because there is nothing particular special except Mkar got first dibbs on him. Thats it. I'm sure other GK are equally pure (Purifiers) or good fighters. But Draigo got buggsied by Mkar so he gets a pass

That might count for a guy who doesn't go and knock over Nurgle's plant pots, but Draigo did that. I'm pretty sure he could still be alive, technically, and the host to every space STD Nurgle can pass his way. If Nurgle even cared about the claim some Daemon Prince had made.

And if he goes and kicks over Khorne's skullpile than M'kar needs to go find himself a new destiny.

Heck, even Mortarion should be trying to mess with him. There's a lot of space between 'Free in the Warp' and 'Dead' for Draigo to occupy, and he should be exploiting it. For example, de-limbing him, sticking him a Dreadnaught sarcophagus to keep him alive, then putting that Sarchoagus somewhere with a good few of what's happening out in Real Space. He's alive...he would just really, really wish he wasn't.

...and yes, I know Huron Blackheart used that idea first.

Draigo is alive, free and smashing things up in the Warp because he has all the powers and plot armour of a 14 year old teen with a magical wand and talking pet.

Actually, I kinda agree with Jon about that.

I remember reading one piece of fluff about the black crusade. There was some saint who was supposed to rise up and be a key figure when the end times are coming. One of the black crusade had Abaddon go and absolutely destroy the said saint's resting place. So, in that sense, that particular destiny is no longer valid.

Destiny can be changed. And I would argue that any of the chaos god's will as well as that of a sufficiently powerful daemon primarch should be able to trump M'kar's "first dibs" destiny. Not happy about that? then M'kar should go and take that up with his chaos god or that particular primarch daemon. I am sure he would find the lesson a very interesting one.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
That might count for a guy who doesn't go and knock over Nurgle's plant pots, but Draigo did that. I'm pretty sure he could still be alive, technically, and the host to every space STD Nurgle can pass his way. If Nurgle even cared about the claim some Daemon Prince had made.

And if he goes and kicks over Khorne's skullpile than M'kar needs to go find himself a new destiny.

Heck, even Mortarion should be trying to mess with him. There's a lot of space between 'Free in the Warp' and 'Dead' for Draigo to occupy, and he should be exploiting it. For example, de-limbing him, sticking him a Dreadnaught sarcophagus to keep him alive, then putting that Sarchoagus somewhere with a good few of what's happening out in Real Space. He's alive...he would just really, really wish he wasn't.

...and yes, I know Huron Blackheart used that idea first.

Draigo is alive, free and smashing things up in the Warp because he has all the powers and plot armour of a 14 year old teen with a magical wand and talking pet.

Why would anyone in the Warp bother with any of that? As mentioned numerous times, his feats are pointless. If he burns the garden it'll just grow back like it never happened. He's a minor annoyance at best, a small case of herpes at best.

Also,the Chaos Gods dont have full control of the Warp. It has its own rules and even they must obey. Such as blood feuds, destiny, emotion, and all the other things that dont apply to our realm. If the Chaos Gods had utter control over the Warp to override its laws, they'd simply snuff out the mind of anyone who entered it, like Grey Knights or the Emperor. They'd be able to just wish away any threats like Gork and Mork. So yes,if a Daemon Prince did the right ritual to curse Draigo, its property of Mkar, hands off.

And I'm gonna restate this again: Fateweaver couldnt even SEE Draigo along any strands of time. Draigo was removed from his omniscient vision and that's how he won that battle. Mortarion still cant touch him. No one can. But he can do nothing and THAT is the point.

Why wouldn't anyone in the Warp do that? I mean, they're called Daemons for a reason. Mortarion is stated as being pretty miffed at having a Grey Knight Grandmaster's name carved into his heart and isn't renowned for his level and forgiving temperant. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's stated Mortation fully intends to kill him.

I admit, I haven't owned a Grey Knight codex since the 5th edition one came out, and sold that one shortly after, so I'm partially running on memories and what I can find on the web...but Draigo has had an effect, hasn't he? He may walk the Warp but he shows up in reality often enough to cause issues, and the rules of the Warp don't function there

Equally, I'm relatively certain the laws of the Warp are quite...fluid. I mean, it's called Chaos for a reason. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne.

And finally...isn't M'kar completely dead now, even by Daemon standards, obliterated by Mini-Papa Smurf himself Calgar? Apparently in the Chapter's Due. Which rather suggests that destiny can be altered, given sufficient levels of plot.

I'll be honest - bolting half of Brother-Captain Stern's storyline onto Draigo wasn't the way to resolve the character. Breaking him was. Have him suffer defeat after defeat. Maybe even Dreadnaught him, although given how nice his model is...but he needs to loose - not ironically, but utterly, in a way that would break a normal marine. And then, after being bolted back together, he can be tempered by the experience.

Right now, he may not have a direct impact on the Warp - but he pops out often enough that he can sure as hell have one in the Materium, which rather negates that weakness. His 'Destiny' - to be killed by a dead daemon - makes him effectively unkillable. I mean, that right there is pretty damned Mary Sue.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Why wouldn't anyone in the Warp do that? I mean, they're called Daemons for a reason. Mortarion is stated as being pretty miffed at having a Grey Knight Grandmaster's name carved into his heart and isn't renowned for his level and forgiving temperant. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's stated Mortation fully intends to kill him.

I admit, I haven't owned a Grey Knight codex since the 5th edition one came out, and sold that one shortly after, so I'm partially running on memories and what I can find on the web...but Draigo has had an effect, hasn't he? He may walk the Warp but he shows up in reality often enough to cause issues, and the rules of the Warp don't function there

Equally, I'm relatively certain the laws of the Warp are quite...fluid. I mean, it's called Chaos for a reason. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne.

And finally...isn't M'kar completely dead now, even by Daemon standards, obliterated by Mini-Papa Smurf himself Calgar? Apparently in the Chapter's Due. Which rather suggests that destiny can be altered, given sufficient levels of plot.

I'll be honest - bolting half of Brother-Captain Stern's storyline onto Draigo wasn't the way to resolve the character. Breaking him was. Have him suffer defeat after defeat. Maybe even Dreadnaught him, although given how nice his model is...but he needs to loose - not ironically, but utterly, in a way that would break a normal marine. And then, after being bolted back together, he can be tempered by the experience.

Right now, he may not have a direct impact on the Warp - but he pops out often enough that he can sure as hell have one in the Materium, which rather negates that weakness. His 'Destiny' - to be killed by a dead daemon - makes him effectively unkillable. I mean, that right there is pretty damned Mary Sue.

Does he actually cause issues? He shows up once every couple decades and helps stop an incursion. What does that do? Jack. The Daemons just go back to the Warp with an axe to grind. They still come back. All that does is give the GK hope that their leader is still alive and stops them from electing a new one. He cant use it to his advantage and he can't do anything with his power. He's a non-entity in the Great Game. He's been completely removed from the equation.

The laws of the Warp are quite fluid, but fluid still flows. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne but aren't Bloodthirsters a pure embodiment of aggression, rage, fighting and hatred? What kind of war god would prohibit his warriors from attacking him? Destiny can be altered but not changed. Mkar is fully dead, he suffered True Death. But that doesn't mean Draigo's destiny to die at Mkar's hand is changed. Timetravel is a thing. Perhaps Draigo goes back to a point in time where Mkar exists or perhaps he is doomed to wander the Warp until time and realspace collapse and reality ceases to be real and all the Chaos Gods and their minions are dead and all of existance is just Draigo, alone for all eternity in the Warp? Who knows?

As for your "solution," how is that NOT Mary Sue? Strong Character gets challenged, then he gets broken, then he comes back stronger than ever or falls into darkness. Its a trope done a million and one times in every possible genre and medium. Defeat? What would that do? Nothing. Defeat means death and dead characters are dead and do nothing. Dreadnought him? You mean relegate him to the fringes of fluff as a footnote, only activated once every few thousand years to give a bit of wisdom and utterly wreck everything he comes across? I thought that was the problem in the first place?

I suppose it's the difference between a character who has earned there power and one whose had it handed to them. Draigo falls into the second category - he's simply that awesome because of destiny. Other characters earn it a little more by having to struggle. But we've seen no struggle from Draigo. I should point out, there's not way to truly de-Sue that character, but people will be more accepting if he has to eat some humble pie.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

As far as I know Pandorax is set before Draigo got shot into the Warp.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

As far as I know Pandorax is set before Draigo got shot into the Warp.

Yes. Anything in the 41st Millennium is pre-curse. He got trapped in 999M41, so any example of him leading the GK after his exile would take place in M42.

Draigo is my Spiritual Liege.

Draigo is the Avatar of the Emperor.

Draigo is everything we all aspire to and more.

If there is one word I would like to see retired from warhammer 40k then it's "spiritual liege".

Dont read the badly written fluff on him from 5th edition to current.

Read/listen to Flight of Esienstein. Then The Sigilite, Then the Garro-First knight series. And truly believe Garro was 'reborn' into Draigo, a Grey Knight, through the Sigilite.

Then Draigo becomes awesome.

 Nerak wrote:
If there is one word I would like to see retired from warhammer 40k then it's "spiritual liege".

at this point it's reached a meme status that I don't think is going away

People aren't even using it right...

Personally, I like to interpret Draigo as a mortal who's gone completely insane through warp exposure. Every now and again he gets spat back out where he just babbles incoherently about how he cut through the garden of nurgle, and how he carved his name onto the heart of a daemon primarch.

Little more than the ravings of a complete and total lunatic. Tragic in his own way, as there may well be a kernel of truth in what he says, but the vast majority is just the rambling diatribe of a raving madman punctuated by brief and heartbreaking moments of clarity.

That's what happens when you spend any length of time in the warp.

I suppose we'll see how Morty's chest looks in a couple of weeks

 Deadshot wrote:
He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.

Don't bring annie into this mess.

You're underestimating the importance of Anakin Skywalker
As a matter of fact, the prophecy said "Bring balance to the force", in a universe where there were maybe two Siths and the Jedi were flourishing like crazy.
So he did bring balance, by mulching all the Jedi, seeding the next generation (which is exclusively his geneseed), seeing to its survival by throwing the emperor in a pit, etc. (tell me why that idiot cannot use the force to levitate again? )
Although he's probably part of an endless cycle of yin-yang alternated dominance, he is the linchpin of the white-to-black transition and the second most important element in the black-to-white transition, the first being his own son.

Not only is the character a lot more interesting and detailed than anything I know from GW, he is at the center of his era where Draigo is just one among many omgwtfbbqpwnsauce OTT special snowflakes.

So I was curious enough to listen to Mortarions Heart.

I was faintly optimistic that the whole overblown Mary sue thing would be allegorical and the a risk act would make more sense as a metaphor than.. nope actually rips Morty open and carves a name on his heart. Well Well well.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So I was curious enough to listen to Mortarions Heart.

I was faintly optimistic that the whole overblown Mary sue thing would be allegorical and the a risk act would make more sense as a metaphor than.. nope actually rips Morty open and carves a name on his heart. Well Well well.

Doesn't that basically say that Draigo wasn't particularly special for doing it because simply have Mortarion's True Name defeated him?

morgoth wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.

Don't bring annie into this mess.

You're underestimating the importance of Anakin Skywalker
As a matter of fact, the prophecy said "Bring balance to the force", in a universe where there were maybe two Siths and the Jedi were flourishing like crazy.
So he did bring balance, by mulching all the Jedi, seeding the next generation (which is exclusively his geneseed), seeing to its survival by throwing the emperor in a pit, etc. (tell me why that idiot cannot use the force to levitate again? )
Although he's probably part of an endless cycle of yin-yang alternated dominance, he is the linchpin of the white-to-black transition and the second most important element in the black-to-white transition, the first being his own son.

Not only is the character a lot more interesting and detailed than anything I know from GW, he is at the center of his era where Draigo is just one among many omgwtfbbqpwnsauce OTT special snowflakes.

I am very aware of how important Anakin is to the rise and fall of the Empire. But there were Sith longer before Vader and Sideous, and Jedi long before them too. And long after. Anakin is seen as important because the films focus on his. In the wider universe, he's not important at all. He has moutains of potential to be the greatest Jedi ever born. He fails to achieve that. Ands ends as a footnote in history, to be replaced with Darth Vader, who ushered in an age of war and fear and oppression. Simply due to destiny.

Much like Draigo. Important for a few brief moments in the wider universe, then not. Mountains of potential to be the greatest Grey Knight ever. Then failed, due to destiny.

Except he's still lauded as the greatest Grey Knight ever so he didn't fail.

I've never much cared for the question of a fictional character being a Mary Sue, that's more a reflection on the writer's ability and until the character is actually gone from the universe and no more is to be written it's also open to change - Is Draigo a Mary Sue? Depends on the writer of the story.

All it takes is one good writer who has the talent to explore him within the character rules already established and he could become interesting, knowing his ability to serve his Chapter is limited to the point of depression but trying to get there anyway is actually kind of admirable.

The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

123ply wrote:
The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

when Morty's stats come out I'd be easy to see some number crunching done to see how plauseable, on the table top, dragio beating Morty is.

123ply wrote:
The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

"Don't want to explain why" is almost the same as not actually having a reason.

Kaldor Draigo is why I never made a Death Guard army. My hope is the next time Mortarion and Draigo meet, Mortarion hits him so hard the Grey Knights disband.

 Warplock wrote:
Kaldor Draigo is why I never made a Death Guard army. My hope is the next time Mortarion and Draigo meet, Mortarion hits him so hard the Grey Knights disband.

It'd honestly be intreasting to see a "Dragio Morty rematch"

The question Mortation's Heart raises, for me - and I haven't listened to it, so if there is an answer I would love to hear it - why didn't the previous Grandmaster, the one Mortation rips up,not use his True Name? Or was it a name so powerful only a Mary Sue could utter it or something? Was there any reason why the veteran, experienced leader of a chapter specifically made to fight Daemons didn't use the ultimate anti-daemon weapon against such a powerful enemy? It seems...odd...that he didn't just do it himself.

Let's see. The Grand Master had doubt..
Teleported in, Paladins tear apart the Death Shroud.

Geronitan has Morty transfixed.. morty starts laughing.
Geronitan has a rant, says his piece.. morty points at him flaps his wings (leathery) says he is decieved. Morty rocks out a Plague Wind, Geronitan fails to dispel.. Paladins all fall over.. Gerry drops the sword.. KO'd.

So yeah looks like he just couldn't hang in long enough to do the deed.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Let's see. The Grand Master had doubt..
Teleported in, Paladins tear apart the Death Shroud.

Geronitan has Morty transfixed.. morty starts laughing.
Geronitan has a rant, says his piece.. morty points at him flaps his wings (leathery) says he is decieved. Morty rocks out a Plague Wind, Geronitan fails to dispel.. Paladins all fall over.. Gerry drops the sword.. KO'd.

So yeah looks like he just couldn't hang in long enough to do the deed.

For some reason this rendition of the story makes me think of Alphabeat:

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty points and laughs)

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty starts to cast a spell...)

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty kills them all)

Draigo: MOR-TAR-I-ON!
(heartscrawls Morty and saves the day)

It's worth noting that it was like he could just say the word and that's it. Wasn't it described as Draigo not even really knowing the True Name and retained no memory of it after he unleashed it? Seemed more akin to a Psychic weapon that had to be prepared than what you might expect. Some described it as a mental suitcase bomb which seems surprisingly apt.

I still think the easiest way of making that fight seem better would have just been to say that Mortarion had been weakened by Geronitan. Or just have Warp-totems X be destroyed elsewhere, weakening the presence of the Warp. The True Name pretty much one-shotting Mortarion is weird and not really how True Names have been portrayed in the past from what I recall.

Previously in the original Realms of Chaos books and in the first Grey Knights novels, True Names were described as granting leverage against a daemon. It is not a guarantee of an instant-kill. The powerful Daemon Prince in the Grey Knights novel was temporarily incapacitated by the True Name as it had only just manifested and was therefore not at full power. This was however enough for other more mundane Imperial forces to kill the incapacitated Daemon Prince before it could recover.

It was also said in the original Realms of Chaos that only the most powerful of Daemons did not fear others knowing their True Name. This hints there are such daemons out there (or at least there were at that point in GW's RL history).

It could be hypothesized that maybe the Chaos gods' names are their True Names. They are so powerful that the little extra leverage invoking their True Name gives is irrelevant.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never much cared for the question of a fictional character being a Mary Sue, that's more a reflection on the writer's ability and until the character is actually gone from the universe and no more is to be written it's also open to change - Is Draigo a Mary Sue? Depends on the writer of the story.

All it takes is one good writer who has the talent to explore him within the character rules already established and he could become interesting, knowing his ability to serve his Chapter is limited to the point of depression but trying to get there anyway is actually kind of admirable.

This. I don't really understand how people have gone back and forth so much when it's clearly all dependant on what you're reading from. Obviously he's been awfully written at times, welcome to 40k fiction. On the other hand, there's plenty of cool concepts to work with, welcome to the 40k universe. Lots of Sue, lots of awesome, they're not mutually exclusive.

I think it's more a balance ratio. Draigo is more heavily leaning towards Sue than most because of the scale of his deeds,, although he's been moderately dragged back from his initial fluff. A lot of his awesome moments also come with Sue-taint, too. Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did. And then all the Grandmasters had a quick Psyker chat and decided to jump him to Supreme Grandmaster.

But his plotline is basically the unholy love child of Brother-Captain Stern and Samurai Jack. Only his Aku is already dead. And did not sound anywhere near as awesome as Mako Iwamatsu.

So now he's cursed to be only killable by a guy who's already dead, which can pretty much only happen now via time travel. When time travel is your endgame, you've lost the plot. Down a wormhole, usually.

It's not impossible that he could feature in some awesome stories, of course - GW do have a few talented writers - but with Matt Ward once again prowling Nottingham, drinking his favorite cocktail (a mix of Ultramarine Blue paint and the tears of his victims) it's sadly more likely that Draigo will arm wrestle Angron into submission, overwhelm Magnus' psyker defences, out party Fulrgrim and out debate Lorgar on religion - possibly all at once.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

the story, it's worth noting was written after the fact. so it's a case of a writer being handed the 5th edition grey knights summery and being told "make this hot mess work"

Oh, I get that - and what a challenge that would be! That story, along with a few other Wardified bits of fluff, put me off playing the Codex (and eventually I lost interest in the game, skipping 6th and 7th editions. I'm only tentatively interested in 8th because some friends are getting into Necromunda) and for someone who'd played the 3rd edition codex right up until it was retired...

The problem I'm having is the more I think about, the more Sue the story comes across, even though the intention was to de-Sue Draigo and make us stop making fun of him.

But yeah, either the True Name thing is too awesome for most Grey Knights to learn and use, hence cementing Draigo's Sueness, or the Grey Knights are too Grimdark to use their best weapon against their most lethal foes...for reasons.

I would love to de-Sue Draigo - his model is gorgeous, and the basic idea is interesting - but at this point I'm not sure how you could do it.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Oh, I get that - and what a challenge that would be! That story, along with a few other Wardified bits of fluff, put me off playing the Codex (and eventually I lost interest in the game, skipping 6th and 7th editions. I'm only tentatively interested in 8th because some friends are getting into Necromunda) and for someone who'd played the 3rd edition codex right up until it was retired...

The problem I'm having is the more I think about, the more Sue the story comes across, even though the intention was to de-Sue Draigo and make us stop making fun of him.

But yeah, either the True Name thing is too awesome for most Grey Knights to learn and use, hence cementing Draigo's Sueness, or the Grey Knights are too Grimdark to use their best weapon against their most lethal foes...for reasons.

I would love to de-Sue Draigo - his model is gorgeous, and the basic idea is interesting - but at this point I'm not sure how you could do it.

I'd read the story myself first, (I haven't yet) just because I suspect it'll be handled. Dragio simply being talented eneugh to learn a deamon primarchs true name, when others happened not too, isn't nesscarily sueish. SOMEONE has to be the best

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

That's assuming they have the other True Names. From what I can find, the True Name was "the one the Emperor originally intended to call him." Maybe Mortarion's is all they have? Angron, for example, he is Khorne's greatest champion, presumably Khorne would intervene and protect vs such a tricksy tactic. Or perhaps Angron is so far gone from his original version that his True Name no long applies to him? True Names are very much mutable and complex. Lexicanum, citing The Chapter's Due reads "For Daemons who were once mortals, such as Chaos Space Marines who have ascended to Daemon Prince status, their mortal names sometimes function as their True Names. During the Invasion of Ultramar, Uriel Ventris weakened the Daemon Prince M'kar by identifying him aloud as Maloq Kartho, formerly a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers."

However for Primarchs, they were never truly mortal or immortal, and their mortal name functions as their Daemon Name. Again, going back to the mutability, Angron is so vastly changed from the Emperor's original design by the Butcher's Nails that perhaps the True Name the Emperor intended never really applied. For Fulgrim, who willinging gave up all his ties to humanity, perhaps that also symbolically shed his True Name in favour of another? Magnus, as a true avatar of Tzeentch, is ever changing, so his True Name would be extremely difficult to pin down and actually work. But the time you discover it, its already changed. Mortarion, as champion of the God of decay, rot and stagnation, it makes sense that his True Name just never changed. However, after such an attack, it probably changed his character and made him realise he has a vulnerability, and thus, his True Name would change with him.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

Why don't all Grey Knights have this? Perhaps it wasn't really Draigo's doing, rather another powerful being (such as The Emperor or Fateweaver) spoke through him?

Perhaps speaking a True Name is a doorway; once opened it can be traversed in either direction, so against the most powerful daemon using a True Name could be dangerous for the weaker willed?

Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

I dunno, I think there is some room for interesting exploration here.

nareik wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

Why don't all Grey Knights have this? Perhaps it wasn't really Draigo's doing, rather another powerful being (such as The Emperor or Fateweaver) spoke through him?

Perhaps speaking a True Name is a doorway; once opened it can be traversed in either direction, so against the most powerful daemon using a True Name could be dangerous for the weaker willed?

Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

I dunno, I think there is some room for interesting exploration here.

I think there is something to do with the strength of will. In the GK codex it describes the invoking of True Names as a form of Daemonic Pact, however, one that puts the speaker at a major advantage, as opposed to a ritual summoning. True Names also appear (as per Lexicanum) to interrupt the connection to the patron God, as the TN is the binding that holds the Daemon hostage to the God. I'm sure any old Noob trying to seperate a Daemon from its God would be incinerated or something by the sheer force. The most powerful Daemons, ie, the Primarchs and Daemon Lords, are probably pretty much immune except in exceptional circumstances such as this.

As for learning it in the field, perhaps it was some sort of psychic prompt that he discovered. For example, perhaps in the heat of the moment, his pyschic brain tapped into the Warp, and drew out that knowledge of the Daemon's essence subconciously. That would explain why he didn't know it before or after. Or perhaps, as you say, the Emperor spoke through Draigo as a conduit? Or maybe something in the middle. There are a lot of interesting aspects to this element of the story that can be explored.

So essentially he's not a Mary Sue, he just has more will power than every other Grey Knight / extant human being ever (including the previous grandmaster).

That's not mary sue at all.

No siree.

 Jon Garrett wrote:


That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

I'd assume that to use it would require a certain degree of willpower. Plus he almost died trying to use it as he had to touch him to do so. I haven't heard of the Stygian Crusade. But maybe they couldn't get close enough to use it.

In the book it's not something you can just learn. As someone put it it was essentially a mental suitcase bomb. Draigo didn't really know it. Who knows if most people could even use it? Besides that, knowing too much about Chaos is inherently corrupting. Even if they know about the Traitor Marines they're unlikely to know details.

Dunno, maybe he learned his lesson and was more cautious. Again they have to get close and get an opening. It's not actually speaking a name. Plus there was a big thing about it at it being when worlds and stars aligned.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan. It was unnecessary to retcon what True Names do. The original fluff was ropey but you could justify it easily by having Mortarion having been weakened by the previous Supreme Grand Master, destroying various rituals/constructions used to keep the presence of the Warp strong, using the True Name in the original way, some special preparation against plagues? I can imagine Mortarion being a lot easier to defeat than Angron or Magnus if you have the ability to withstand his contagions.

Unit1126PLL wrote:So essentially he's not a Mary Sue, he just has more will power than every other Grey Knight / extant human being ever (including the previous grandmaster).

It's 40K and he's the Supreme Grand Master so he could well have more will power than any other Grey Knight. That's wouldn't make him a mary sue. But anyway, the previous Supreme Grand Master wasn't necessarily weaker, he was caught off guard. Don't know where you're getting the 'ever' part from.

I'll try to go through it again in a couple of days.

nareik wrote:Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

No, it was given to him by the Grey Knights, but it's not the sort of thing you can hand out to people easily. Draigo doesn't even know what it was. To use it again he'd have to get prepped again.

Basically, Mortarions Heart massively changed what a True Name was (ifor that situation at least) so I think this is leading to a lot of confusion.