I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

Erm, cultists are 5 points per model. 4 points once the codex comes out.

But yes, hordes are very good right now. The really successful ones have been conscripts and brimstone horrors, though the latter is getting a bit of a nerf.

Grots are not something you should be worried about.

Tyranids and daemons can play hordes too, tzeentzch armies full of brimstones are quite effective.

Pure hordes aren't invincible though, even AM is the current top tier thanks to deep striking cheap plasmas and tanks spam.

People are afraid of hordes because in 7th edition this kind of style was screwed and no competitive armies could play that way. Now they're viable and for many players they're something new, as they never faced list with that many bodies before or maybe they did, but seveal years ago.

Changings always scare people, but hordes are not OP at all, just modifiy your TAC lists a little bit in order to consider them as a possible opponent. Hordes wouldn't dominate the meta either since less than half the armies can play with tons of cheap models and many of them can be effective even with a more "toyz before boyz" style. I don't play the green tide with my orks for example, gretchin are gone for me, and I don't like moving tons of footslogging boyz.

Nah man 8th is all about MSU it's why tac marines are so much better then Chad marines, more viable and cheaper and pretty much the save survivability.

Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Honestly, hordes aren't good, they're necessary. The "meta" is overwhelming shooting on turn 1, hordes are the only chance you have of taking that hit, and then wiping out their army on your first turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

 Tactica wrote:
I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

What are you talking about with gretchin? they cannot take flamers or any upgrades on them. Gretchin are T2 with a 6+ save, LD4 and laspistols. A single squad of 10 bolter marines rapid firing can expect to kill 11 of them each turn. I mean I suppose someone could field a ton of them with a few pain boyz, and big meks, and runt herds (if you took 3 big meks, 4 pain boyz, 4 Runt herds, you could then field 471 Grechin, who would only take D3 wounds from morale, and have a 5++, 6+FNP. But you would have no long range shooting, and get wounded on 2s by everything. You would lose pretty quickly against a lot of assault armies who would assault a single squad and pile into several others.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

Yes, I don't own any of that. I know there's a grav flux bombard or something like that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Is that assuming no forge world?

Yes, I don't own any of that. I know there's a grav flux bombard or something like that.

Hell even quad heavy bolters will rip them a new booty hole. Iirc it's like 12 heavy bolters shots for 70 points. Take 2 or 3 of those and something to reroll hits and shread any low T hordes

Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

IG wins again.

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Probably not, because the conscripts prevent you from being in range. You're shooting your meltas at conscripts. Yay.

Martel732 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meh? Hit on 3's, wound on 3's. They save on 6's. Each heavy bolter kills 1.11 conscripts a turn. Then the wyverns kill your heavy bolters.

4-5 Centurion Devastators with Hurricane Bolters standing next to Guilliman has been doing the job for me. It's like 19-20 dead models a turn outside Rapid Fire range and double that within. The Centurions are also pretty durable against return fire (especially with Tigurius).

That said, this is an option only open to Ultramarines.

So only over 700 points to kill 57-60 points per turn....

To be fair, the Centurions get a second gun in that 700 points. Specifically an anti-tank one that they can split fire and is usually doing work of it's own. You're not JUST shooting Conscripts with then.

Probably not, because the conscripts prevent you from being in range. You're shooting your meltas at conscripts. Yay.

Uhh, I don't know about you, but I take Lascannons instead of meltas. Pricier, but 4-5 Centurions with Guilliman can just about drop a Knight or a flyer in one turn with that firepower. With 48" range the Conscripts aren't keeping me out of range of anything.

We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

Okay. But their anti-horde is pretty crappy.

1) Hordes are a thing right now, but they are not the dominant meta anymore than, say, flyers, plasma scions or Reroll Gurliman.

2) Conscripts are really strong right now, and a core part of many, if not most, top lists right now. Brimstone horrors are so strong that they are borderline broken. Expect incoming nerfs.

3) Ork gretchin are pretty useless. If they were only 2 points a model... they would still be pretty useless.

4) Orks can run a fine horde army using Boyz, and nids can do the same with gaunts. But neither unit is broken, and both styles has some definite weaknesses.

5) You really cannot make a horde army out of Tau drones. Tau commander spam is really strong, but it is not a horde army even if you bring lots of drones.

6) I have never seen a Necron horde army.

Gaunts as well.

Are you talking about marines or specific chapters like BA? Cuz guilliman near devastators/predators and/or 3-4 razorbacks with twin assault cannons can cause A LOT of damage, even against conscripts. With not many drops marins should go first which is always great.

Add a single stormraven and those conscripts can be decimated in turn 1.

Of course if the opponent brings 450 little men it would be a different story but against 150-200 cheap bodies, which is what tipycally AM players field, marines can win a game. AM is the most powerful army, it is reasonable to accept that they win more games than other factions on average, but even in previous editions some armies were (way) more powerful than the other ones. Marines are not as effective as AM but they still may be competitive and win against them.

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

That's not good anti-horde at all...

Frag missiles. Whoop de-do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We weren't talking about dev cents. We were talking about assault cents. 4-5 cents with Rowboat also costs what?

In my VERY first post I specifically said Dev Cents. So yes, yes we were talking about Dev Cents.

4 of them plus Guilliman is 896. A little less than half your points in a 2k game and capable of damaging horde and tank alike while walking through Ruin walls to abuse LoS. Good TAC item.

That's not good anti-horde at all...

You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

Most hordes cannot even touch you. Most of the ones that can won't have the strength to break you except over multiple turns. You keep firing and it adds up. In Rapid Fire it's 38-40 dead Conscripts a turn.

Heck, I saw 5 of them kill 15-17 Genestealer Purestrains (who have 5++) in Overwatch. That's a little above their average but they can definitely build the body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. But their anti-horde is pretty crappy.

They've got Hurricane Bolters and the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. It's actually pretty substantial.

Audustum wrote:
You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

That's roughly 16 dead conscripts at 24'' and 32 dead conscripts at 12''. Representing roughly 64 or 128 pts. It's an inefficient but comparatively not terrible method by SM standards, if you can get into rapid fire range.

sossen wrote:

Audustum wrote:
You serious? You've got 30 shots at range and 60 in Rapid Fire and Overwatch. You're re-rolling all misses in both cases and all wounds. T5 2+ 3W and you get an auto +1 to that armor if in Ruins.

That's roughly 16 dead conscripts at 24'' and 32 dead conscripts at 12''. Representing roughly 64 or 128 pts. It's an inefficient but comparatively not terrible method by SM standards, if you can get into rapid fire range.

We discussed the matter earlier. It's actually 20 dead at range and 40 in Rapid Fire.

When calculating point efficiency, don't forget to only use half the model's base and discount the cost of the second gun since those are being used on a different target. Unless we want to start adding in potential enemy vehicles and hard targets for the second gun to shoot at.

So under that metric, you're using about 220 points of the Cents and Guilliman's 360 to shoot the Conscripts.

Do Cents get -1 AP from somewhere? Otherwise, I am getting about 16 dead from maths. 30*.888888*.8888888*.666666. It is a big punch to the Conscripts, but you need much more if you expect there to be more than 50 or so. That is a tiny part of the AM lists points, so hopefully your other weapons manage to knock out some of the meaningful return fire. Otherwise, those Cents can't hope to keep it up.

I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

What about Frag Launchers.

4 points for D6 str 4 shots at 18"

Seems points efficient.

UndersIzed unit deepstriking single justicar casting the new vortex power backed up by a few snipers

Audustum wrote:
I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

I got 15.80 from that site as well. 30 attacks, 3+ to hit with reroll, S4 T3 with reroll, 5+ save,

sossen wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

I got 15.80 from that site as well. 30 attacks, 3+ to hit with reroll, S4 T3 with reroll, 5+ save,

Ah there we go. I was hitting 6 on the dropdown. Our numbers match now.

 Tactica wrote:
I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

Most armies have tools for dealing with hordes, only one or two are a bit lacking in that category. The change is that now you have to either bring tools to deal with that, or just accept that you'll lose in the face of it.

I've only recently come back to 40k, but it seems like previous editions everyone just picked sledgehammer style units and relied on having the bigger hammer to solve all their problems. While 8th may turn into that, right now it seems more like you need to pack a box of multiple tools. Some units need mulit-damage weapons, some units need lots of dakka, some you need to charge into combat.

Tau Drones aren't exactly suited for horde-ing. Taken as a Fast Attack option, I think you can only field 12 models max. Tau do have a lot of MSU drone units we can spam, but they're more of a nuisance than a winning strategy.

 XT-1984 wrote:
What about Frag Launchers.

4 points for D6 str 4 shots at 18"

Seems points efficient.

I think it is better than Storm bolter at range between 12 and 18, but worse at <12 or between 18 to 24. If I have the choice, I tends to take 2 Storm Bolters over Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 orchewer wrote:
Tau Drones aren't exactly suited for horde-ing. Taken as a Fast Attack option, I think you can only field 12 models max. Tau do have a lot of MSU drone units we can spam, but they're more of a nuisance than a winning strategy.

A Outrider detachment full of 36 drones and 1 Ethereal on Hover Drone costs only 338 points. Drone hordes can be a thing.

If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

Exactly hence the justicar bomb take out the buffers and they are much easier to kill since moral does the job for you

Boys and cheaper 7 point bloodletters are nasty assault hordes.

AM is beefy, but commissars are vulnerable to snipers.

Razerous wrote:
If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

Assuming every faction has good snipers (they don't), or that some factions have mitigation/bodyguards (they do), sniping becomes somewhat problematic.

I worry less about horde numbers of wounds than I do of domination of the game time. If you have to move, shoot and assault with 200+ models, you'll eat up all of the game time doing your stuff. This is a big problem at tournaments, and while it's not a new one, this edition may make it a more common problem. I guess if everyone adopts a horde meta it balances out, but this edition was supposed to speed up play, right?

I disagree with Tyranids being labeled a competative horde army,

(4pts) Termagants are trash compared to Conscripts and (5-6 Point Hormagaunts (hits like a wet noodle compared to Boyz).

It's effective models is at 8 pts(devilgants) and 12 pts(genestealers). It's more of balanced army than horde.

 John Prins wrote:

This is a big problem at tournaments, and while it's not a new one, this edition may make it a more common problem. I guess if everyone adopts a horde meta it balances out, but this edition was supposed to speed up play, right?

Yes, but 40k should be a simulation of a battle, not a match between 5-10 superheroes. Many units are also become more expensive which means than other than some cheap troops you'll unlikely end up playing with tons of models. And most of those hordes armies were hordes oriented even in the older editions, like orks, tyranids and AM. Tau lists with a stormsurge and 3-5 riptides or tyranids with only big monsters were an issue, I'm glad that 40k doesn't go that way anymore.

Hordes won't dominate the meta since orks, tyranids and daemons are not suited for many players. Tau and necrons can't be played with real hordes. Only AM hordes could become quite popular because they're very effective and that army has always been among the most beloved ones. But honestly I don't see hordes as the new standard since only a few armies can field them and most of these factions can be decent, if not competitive, even with another approach. The positive aspect of 8th edition is that hordes are viable once again, it doesn't mean that this is the new standard way of playing.

Razerous wrote:
If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

You can't possibly remove all those Flyrants before that 3 units of 20 strong Genestealers charge you and claws you to death

For Orks, good luck reducing 15 boyz from each of three 30 boyz strong mobs.

You want hordes dead? Brings Noise Marines friends, sonic bolters + Endless Cacophony will see plenty off and at a very reasonable price point at that. If you particularly need them removed use buff commanders and Votlw and season for taste.

Hordes are the paper to the rock of Flyer spam.

They're a valid play style now that templates are gone.

CovenantGuardian wrote:

I disagree with Tyranids being labeled a competative horde army,

(4pts) Termagants are trash compared to Conscripts and (5-6 Point Hormagaunts (hits like a wet noodle compared to Boyz).

It's effective models is at 8 pts(devilgants) and 12 pts(genestealers). It's more of balanced army than horde.

Purestrains, even at 12PPM, are fully competitive and where you should go to be hording Tyranids in my book. 960 points gets you 4 units of 20.

 Blackie wrote:

Yes, but 40k should be a simulation of a battle, not a match between 5-10 superheroes.

Full agreement here. I'm generally of the opinion that characters are way too overpowered, and should just be slightly better than the rank and file guys (or rather, the sergeants), not ten times better.

 Arthas367 wrote:
You want hordes dead? Brings Noise Marines friends, sonic bolters + Endless Cacophony will see plenty off and at a very reasonable price point at that. If you particularly need them removed use buff commanders and Votlw and season for taste.

I think Noise Marines have some potential against hordes, with 3 shot bolter ignore cover, the blast master and bonus in fight phase, a 10 strong squad should have some edge in reducing hordes.

That trigger me to analysis what unit in Marine army that is "qualify" in dealing with fast moving high-model count army / unit. The qualifying standard is: in one turn of shooting with average rolling, the unit / model can heavily deplete a 20 strong Genestealer unit (which is around 240pts, they puch real hard, lightning fast in moving, and somehow quite survivable compare to IG or Ork Boyz), under a Malanthrope buff and hiding in terrain waiting to charge you next turn.

The analysis is assisted by
http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/
which is introduced into this post by Audustum

I just not bother to count the tactical squad or equivent, 16 bolter shots (assume they marched 6 inch closer to target), 2 plasma shots, and D6 shot of that frag missile is just not enough to the point that mathhammer is not needed to conclude that they are bad at the job. And they will surely die to the charge of 10+ Genestealers.

Lets start with some "gun boat" tanks with , the 1st one: the new shiny Repulsors with Heavy Onslaught Gatling, Onslaught Gatling, Twin Heavy Bolter, 3 storm bolters, 2 Fragstrom Grenade Launchers, 2 Krakstrom Grenade Launchers, 1 Ironhail heavy stubber. It has 24 S5 Ap-1 shots, 12+2D6 S4 AP0 shots, 2 S6 AP-1 shots, and 3 S4 Ap-1 shots at 12 inch range. The respective kills against the aforemention Genestealer unit will be 5.33, 2.38, 0.44, and 0.50, thus resulting a total of 8.65 dead genestealers. The genestealer left is still 11 in number and pose a significant threat.

So, the Repulsor Failed

Next, the Land Raider Crusader: 24 shots S4 AP0, 12 shots S6 AP-1, which have killed 3.25 (optional 2 more S4 AP0 from top storm bolter) and 2.67 respectively that yields 5.92 kills. the LRC Failed

OK, that is 300+ points big tanks, lets maybe look at some of the smaller brothers, for example, the Land Speeders with 2 Heavy Flamers.
The math shows a squad of 3 LS with this loadout will kill 9.32 Genestealers in shooting. Not bad, that unit is half dead, though not yet to the point of "heavily depleted", the first SM unit at 300pts mark that can kill 120pts worth of Genestealers appears. And I bet the survived guys would choose another target to charge now.

How about Aggressors? The 3 men flame Aggressors dish out 6D6 auto hit S4 Ap0. That will kill 5.24 Genestealers. So if they are 6men strong, they will half the Genestealer squad in one round. However, they need Repulsors or being in RG army to have a chance to get into 8 inches for that alpha strike. Or the Genestealers will just run around them.
The Bolt Aggressors dish out 18+3D6 shots, which gives 3.56 dead genestealer, if they had not moved, they will gun down a third of that Genestealers. If they are 6 strong and standing still, they might qualify as horde killers and provide a no entering zone of 18 inch radius. No bad. Just need to be careful that Genestealer's averaged charging threat range should also be around 18 inches. Sooooo..... better take them as Ultramarines?

That is what I've thought so far. Anyone has some supplement or comments?

My group is dominated by hoards, mostly the 120 ork mobs kind.

The big complaint seems to be time. A few of the locals are taking orks to a tournament at the end of the month counting on t takes an hour to play a full turn. =\

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

 Arthas367 wrote:
That is what I've thought so far. Anyone has some supplement or comments?

how about 20 Acolytes with stormbolters in a Stormlord ? at 200 pts they are doing •Average number of wounds: 17.78 against s4 t3 5+ save things. At rapid fire range.

I didn't include the cost of the Stormlord since I was running one anyway with Conscripts in it. However I had problems vs Hord armies





Automatically Appended Next Post:
also for 135 pts could put 5 morter teams in the Stormlord for •Average number of wounds: 11.68

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

on a competitive level, with stormraven spam nerfed, Pure space marines will lose to pure AM overwhelmingly most of the time.

stratigo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

on a competitive level, with stormraven spam nerfed, Pure space marines will lose to pure AM overwhelmingly most of the time.

Like 90% of other armies will do. SM have actually more chances than many other factions to win against AM.

I don't really think so. Maybe Ravenguard. Maybe. But after using marines many times and going against them many times, I'm thoroughly unimpressed.

Ravenguard easily take a conscript army. As you can start with all your assault troops in melee on turn 1.

That's less useful than it sounds.

Hordes are not OP, conscripts and brimstones have been, but we now have a lot more against hordes:

1) Aggressors, they are the ultimate solution against hordes.
2) One tactical marine or CSM can hold the objective against 50 conscripts.
3) Brimstones were nerfed as soon as the codex came out, and we know that an AM codex is coming out. If i painted and assembled 100+ conscripts i would be sweating bricks right now.

Those 100+ conscripts are pretty much just the same models. I'd also expect the OS-equivalent when their codex comes out, but it's true they lack it now.

I expect the OS to be reserved for the elite armies.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of those are efficient enough atm.

How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Secondly, a long range unit must be able to take out it's points worth in 3 turns, so it must inflct at least of third of it's point cost in one round of shooting. A short range need to do that in 2 turns, while a suicide unit needs to inflict at least 80% of it's worth in that single turn. This may change if we are talking about a glass cannon or a durable platform like a riptide.

I think conscripts need tweaks maybe to limit orders but other than that the meta isn't hordes. Because after brim and razorspam nerfs hordes alone don't win games. You need firepower to compliment horde durability. And I hope gw does a slight nerf to conscripts like they did with brims so that conscripts are still viable and wanted. Especially for guard/orks/tyranids; which are historically horde lists I like to see varied lists with multiple types of units that reduces spam.

Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I think the reason conscripts do so well is that people are actually trying to kill them and that's their mistake.

They're job is to maybe score objectives and tie things up, so shooting at them is a waste.

They also do a good job bubblewrapping artillery and keeping things like MM's and Asscans off of Manticores and Bassys.

You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

100 conscripts are not an horde, and not a problem to deal with. 200+ of them can become a problem.

Ravenspam is gone but taking 1-2 of those nasty flyers is still possible and even TAC since you may want them anyway, regardless of the presence of the conscripts.

A stormraven, 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and guilliman are pretty much TAC and can screw conscripts quite easily. The key is to get first turn, or plasma scions will melt the vehicles. But AM lists can't have only a few drops if they spam conscripts+commissars+scions plus other stuff so it shouldn't be a problem.

I actually hope that GW nerfs conscripts so that when the IG players just take normal squads and only have 10 fewer models on the board, which really will not affect how the army behaves people can just stop mindlessly complaining.

The thing that people do not appreciate is that conscripts are just one point cheaper than a normal IG, so 50 conscripts cost you 50 fewer points than normal IG, which comes out to be 12.5 normal IG. So instead of 50 models the IG player will have 38 for the same 150 points. The IG player *might* need to spend an extra 30 points on another commissar since the squads will be spread out a bit.

I'm working under the assumption that Conscripts will be nerfed and just painting up a bunch of normal 10 man squads (well 9 with a heavy weapon), their BS is better, they can take special and heavy weapons, and they are still dirt cheap so I will still have upwards of 70 infantry on the board for around 500 points.

The whole freaking out about conscripts confuses me as they are not dominating the tournament scene and frankly I don't really even think they're a better choice than taking normal infantry squads that can have plasma guns and lascannons.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

You can't ignore them, but if they are spread that far out then the chances are that the commissars are exposed, and if they are they die and then the conscripts run away. If they are spread out and somehow you aren't able to kill the commissar...assault them. new SM codex gives OBSEC to Marine infantry so you win the draw every time. failing that you can always rely on those asscan Razorbacks and other abilities to nuke the heck out of those conscripts.

Personally I would love to play conscript spam. 30 Boyz Conscripts put out 120 attacks, 80 hits and about 56-57 wounds If I have ghaz, a weirdboy or the banner nob nearby its even more ridiculous. I'll wipe out that horde in a heart beat and be able to consolidate into more CC

SemperMortis wrote:
Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I agree on that, Conscripts are just tooooo weak individually so that they can only rely on their numbers to do something. The "horde" I really fear about is Genestealers type things, for example 3 units of 20 strong Genestealer. They are much more durable than conscripts, each one pack a much more significant punch if they get into combat. They are stunningly fast so generally if you can't take them down in one round of shooting, you will get torn to pieces by them, compare to slow movement of 50 blob Conscripts. When properly buffed by Malanthrope and Broodlords or Flyrants' psychic power, they are quite hard to take down in this edition and are even more threathening.

I did some analysis in this post yesterday. There are not that many choices can reduce their threat in time. Of course, had I missed something in that analysis, welcome any dakkanuts to supplement me or comment me.

Spoletta wrote:
How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Therefore that's intellectual dishonesty. That's not what they are right now.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I agree on that, Conscripts are just tooooo weak individually so that they can only rely on their numbers to do something. The "horde" I really fear about is Genestealers type things, for example 3 units of 20 strong Genestealer. They are much more durable than conscripts, each one pack a much more significant punch if they get into combat. They are stunningly fast so generally if you can't take them down in one round of shooting, you will get torn to pieces by them, compare to slow movement of 50 blob Conscripts. When properly buffed by Malanthrope and Broodlords or Flyrants' psychic power, they are quite hard to take down in this edition and are even more threathening.

I did some analysis in this post yesterday. There are not that many choices can reduce their threat in time. Of course, had I missed something in that analysis, welcome any dakkanuts to supplement me or comment me.

The catch there is that 'nids don't have long range threaths, so you don't need to be point efficent in removing stealers, you just need to be able to do so. Also, you don't need to remove the units, you just have to bring them below 12 models. 11 Stealers that make the charge take out 7 MEQ, if they don't take casualties from overwatch, That is before evaporating the next turn due to rapid firing bolters, which is not such a good deal out of a 240 point unit supported by many characters. Also, aggressors make them cry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Therefore that's intellectual dishonesty. That's not what they are right now.

Conscripts are undercosted, that is something that we know.If you try to find the unit efficency at removing hordes while using a faulted meter, you will get faulty math.

Conscripts aren't undercosted at all. At most they need to have some of the synergy they have with IG characters nerfed.

And it's hilarious you use "faulty math" accusation, given the horrendous math used by the "CONSCRIPTS SHOULD BE NERFED TO USELESSNESS" crowd.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

 warhead01 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

Ironically, if you assault the conscripts you actually pull them away from the commissars bubble as well because they have to move closer to the combat conversely, once you assault conscripts they really start to melt away because they can't do much without that lasgun.

Conscripts, just like green tide, are gimmicky and easy to beat once you figure out the trick. The trick to green tide is exactly what you mentioned. the trick to Conscripts is similar and then whenever you get the chance snipe the commissar and laugh as your opponent has to pickup 80+ models that died to morale

Conscripts are not the real problem, IMHO there are two major problems with current IG:

1. Completely ignoring morale, the Commissar aura needs a nerf

2. Indirect fire artillery, being able to hit something without being able to see it from the other side of the table behind a swarm of conscripts is ridiculous.

My suggestions would be assigned numbers to the Commissar aura rather than a flat "auto succeed", e.g. the Commissar executes one model and you gain a +5 to your Leadership for that roll. For small squads it's effectively the same, but for large hordes it doesn't scale stupidly.

For artillery I would suggest a nerf to Ballistic Skill if you don't have LoS, perhaps: -1 if you don't have LoS but there is another IG unit that does have LoS (to represent a spotter) and -2 to BS if nothing in your army has LoS.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

Ironically, if you assault the conscripts you actually pull them away from the commissars bubble as well because they have to move closer to the combat conversely, once you assault conscripts they really start to melt away because they can't do much without that lasgun.

Conscripts, just like green tide, are gimmicky and easy to beat once you figure out the trick. The trick to green tide is exactly what you mentioned. the trick to Conscripts is similar and then whenever you get the chance snipe the commissar and laugh as your opponent has to pickup 80+ models that died to morale

I haven't seen them yet in 8th. I've read about them haha. So I've only come up with a few things. Assaulting them for sure but what to do about that Commissar. Now I'm working over how to isolate and assault him. Can it be done. I think it can as long as there's space to fit models. Have to assault as few Conscript units as is necessary and probably use Stormboys to go over the top to assault him. Won't be easy to pull off.
The Conscript problem has me looking at Scorchas (The ones on the Wartrakks) as probably a good part of the plan. Probably Burna boys and Nobz as well. It'll be key to pull the conscripts out of screening position with the assault. Some good luck wouldn't hurt either.

My suggestions would be assigned numbers to the Commissar aura rather than a flat "auto succeed", e.g. the Commissar executes one model and you gain a +5 to your Leadership for that roll. For small squads it's effectively the same, but for large hordes it doesn't scale stupidly.

+5 to ld would be nearly meaningless. If they lost 19 or 20 models in one go what's +5 really going to do for them. I'm saying that because even Orks with their "mighty" LD30, it's still only so good. I've lost 14 or more models in a turn and well, thank goodness for command points.

Orkz are about the only faction that doesn't care about conscript blobs. Orkz are happiest fighting against giant blobs of cheap disposable infantry because it keeps us safe from shooting for a turn usually and we have enough choppiness in CC that will cut down that blob no problem.

Again: 30 boyz = 120 attacks, 80 hits, 55ish wounds and 40-45 dead models If you are really worried about the blob survive, just add a weirdboy with warpath or Ghaz, or maybe the Banner nob. Poof, problem solved. Next turn its on to the tanks.

Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

Another conscript thread where people assume that the anti-infantry options that are currently available are good enough without showing how they are good enough.

 Flood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of these are good enough vs conscripts. Too inefficient.

As for objectives, obsec etc, how are you avoiding getting tabled by turn 5? The vast majority of games end that way in my experience and as far as I have seen on forums. The only games that generally end normally are horde armies vs horde armies, and that brings us back to the opening post.

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

sossen wrote:
Another conscript thread where people assume that the anti-infantry options that are currently available are good enough without showing how they are good enough.

 Flood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of these are good enough vs conscripts. Too inefficient.

As for objectives, obsec etc, how are you avoiding getting tabled by turn 5? The vast majority of games end that way in my experience and as far as I have seen on forums. The only games that generally end normally are horde armies vs horde armies, and that brings us back to the opening post.

Leviathan Dreadnought with twin Grav Bombard. Deletes a 31 out of a 50 man blob/turn worth of conscripts for about 300 points and then can turn its 2D3 str 9 ap -5 DMG 5 guns on vehicles afterward. All while rocking a 2+/4++ T8 14 wounds.

Edit: Math was wrong, should delete 31/50 every turn. But if stray bolter fire cant mop up after that, I don't know what to say.

Edit 2: Add a captain/lieutenant or other source of rerolls, and the number goes to 35-41 dead conscripts/turn.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

4 wounds in overwatch correct, but this is average, they can easily become 5-6. And maybe with those 4 casualties orks may have a longer charge distance that can be failed. Unless you teleport them by da jump (and in that case they should success a 9'' charge, which is not that easy) the boyz will get a lot of firepower before reaching the AM lines.

Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Green tides lists are 180 boyz plus characters tipycally, with nothing to clear hordes at distance or to kill tanks/artillery. 200 conscripts plus 2 commissars are only 660 points of stuff (basically as much as 3x30 boyz and a weirdboy), if they have some anti infantry tanks and artilley, and they likely do have some of those toyz, they can decimate a lot of boyz from distance.

My 2000pt list contains 180 poxwalkers, I love anything that is basically a Zombie. With typhus it makes then a little harder to kill. I'm not looking to annoy people with them just come up with some scenarios where it's a fun and good game.

 Blackie wrote:


Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Would people stop parroting this hypothetical mathhammer nonsense like it happens every game? Out of over 20 games with guard, I have gotten the full FRFSRF on a THIRTY man squad TWICE. Both on units that deep striked and failed their charge rolls. It is ridiculously impractical getting all 50 in range and LOS and at full strength. The only way to do it reliably would be to run them in WHFB style trays at which point they're not screening, which is the whole point of bringing them in the first place.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Would people stop parroting this hypothetical mathhammer nonsense like it happens every game? Out of over 20 games with guard, I have gotten the full FRFSRF on a THIRTY man squad TWICE. Both on units that deep striked and failed their charge rolls. It is ridiculously impractical getting all 50 in range and LOS and at full strength. The only way to do it reliably would be to run them in WHFB style trays at which point they're not screening, which is the whole point of bringing them in the first place.

K, but how hard is it to get orders to conscripts? And even if you only get half in range its still a huge benefit, it literally doubles their dakka.

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

4 wounds in overwatch correct, but this is average, they can easily become 5-6. And maybe with those 4 casualties orks may have a longer charge distance that can be failed. Unless you teleport them by da jump (and in that case they should success a 9'' charge, which is not that easy) the boyz will get a lot of firepower before reaching the AM lines.

Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Green tides lists are 180 boyz plus characters tipycally, with nothing to clear hordes at distance or to kill tanks/artillery. 200 conscripts plus 2 commissars are only 660 points of stuff (basically as much as 3x30 boyz and a weirdboy), if they have some anti infantry tanks and artilley, and they likely do have some of those toyz, they can decimate a lot of boyz from distance.

First of all, wound allocation means overwatch will never result in a longer charge unless you remove the entire unit. They can simply remove boyz from the back.

Secondly, with Waagh, you won't get close enough to rapid fire lasguns into boyz outside of overwatch unless the ork player plays like an idiot.

Your best chance at doing what you described is if stagger multiple blobs of conscripts, sacrificing the front blob so that the second blob can unload. Then a second mob of boyz wipes that blob.... Then a third blob of conscripts wipes that mob... etc. It all comes down to positioning, smart play and some luck. Which honestly is a good thing.

But the thread is about horde vs non-horde. Non-horde doesn't have the numbers to trade blows like that and win. That's why horde is doing well. 8th edition is a very deadly game where having the initiative means everything (ironic since the initiative stat is gone)

 Zimko wrote:

First of all, wound allocation means overwatch will never result in a longer charge unless you remove the entire unit. They can simply remove boyz from the back.

Secondly, with Waagh, you won't get close enough to rapid fire lasguns into boyz outside of overwatch unless the ork player plays like an idiot.

Your best chance at doing what you described is if stagger multiple blobs of conscripts, sacrificing the front blob so that the second blob can unload. Then a second mob of boyz wipes that blob.... Then a third blob of conscripts wipes that mob... etc. It all comes down to positioning, smart play and some luck. Which honestly is a good thing.

But the thread is about horde vs non-horde. Non-horde doesn't have the numbers to trade blows like that and win. That's why horde is doing well. 8th edition is a very deadly game where having the initiative means everything (ironic since the initiative stat is gone)

1: You are right

2: You are wrong, Rapid fire is 12inches. Boyz can charge 12inches, so in reality what that means is if the Boyz fail their charge they are going to get dakka'd off the table. If I start the turn 20inches from you and move 5 inches closer, then run and get the average roll of 3-4 I am then 11-12inches away, If I then try the charge you get to kill 4ish models and then on your turn you can issue FRFSRF and annihilate them.

3: Your best chance is to charge those boyz with your 1st blob after shooting those orkz, then the orkz will finish kill that blob on their turn, failing that you can retreat them and shoot the hell out of them with the 2nd blobs and so on.

Ok. This debate is getting off topic. The OP is about horde vs non-horde, not which horde does it better. We can agree that it would be a good game between a competant ork horde player and AM conscript player.

 Zimko wrote:
Ok. This debate is getting off topic. The OP is about horde vs non-horde, not which horde does it better. We can agree that it would be a good game between a competant ork horde player and AM conscript player.

No, the topic is "Is horde the new 8th meta to be afraid of" and we are comparing two different hordes versus one another.

So, is your opinion that a conscript horde army should not be weary of an ork horde army?

I think such a match would be a close game.

However, other non-horde armies would have a tough time against either ork horde or conscript horde.

It's a small sample size, but my local shop had a 20 person tournament with competitive lists for the NOVA Open GT and the top 2 armies were both orks. The top was an army of 180 grot with big mek bubbles and grot herders and pain boyz. That was only half his list (grits are 3 pts each). He got max points against all his opponents because they simply couldn't remove that many models off of objectives before the game ended. It's a pretty strong case for horde armies.

The other ork player had 90 boyz and an assortment of tank bustas and stuff.

So in my opinion, yes, horde armies are something to be afraid of in the meta, even if you are also using a horde army.

 Zimko wrote:


First of all, wound allocation means overwatch will never result in a longer charge unless you remove the entire unit. They can simply remove boyz from the back.

You're very right, I forgot about that since I play with vehicles and tipycally throw them to eat overwatch.


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 Zimko wrote:


So in my opinion, yes, horde armies are something to be afraid of in the meta, even if you are also using a horde army.

It depends on the army and the specific lists involved. I play orks, drukhari and space wolves and I usually change my lists after 10ish games since playing with the same stuff is boring IMHO, and sometimes hordes are hard counters for my lists but sometimes they're not, even if I write the lists trying to keep them as TAC as possible. A drukhari list with tons of dark lances and blasters is quite TAC, common and competitive but it can be completely screwed by a list with only cheap bodies and characters that cannot be targeted like a green tide. Other kinds of drukhari lists, more assault oriented, perform quite well against green tides, but they lack the anti tank they need against another type of horde, the AM one, which is usually supported by tanks.

The grots army can get a tabled result by many other opponents. Rock/paper/scissor game, if you write a list that can do nothing against hordes and play against random guys it's your fault. I'd be afraid only of stuff than auto-wins everytime, certainly not the grots spam and even the conscripts+commissar spam in my opinion.

I guess 'afraid' is the wrong word. To me it just means that hordes are competitive enough to exist in the top tables in one form or another, and therefore has to be considered when building a list.

 Tactica wrote:
I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

Hurricane bolters and twin Assault cannons for the win. Those delete them from the board fast. My Stormraven and Assault Dev squad does (72 bolter shots, 2d6 frag shots, and 4d6 flamer autohits.... wth the 2 lascannons, 4 melta guns, 2 Stormstike missiles going elsewhere to a hard target).

Which is of course how the new meta is unfolding.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

Have you tried 6 tac squads or many razorbacks or just plain shooting over their heads and pretending they are not their/ playing the objectives.

Conscripts are not broken but they do counter elite spam alpha lists because you wont table wipe them. That's a fault in your list not the conscript

So, with the changes being brought in by Chapter Approved, hordes just got even more difficult to deal with, due to gaining ObSec.

My thoughts on dealing with hordes like boyz spam or 50 man conscript units is - can my army destroy 1 unit a turn whilst also dealing with other threats?

For example - can i kill a unit of 50 conscripts, and put some hurt on a couple of tanks and/or a couple of manticores?

If the answer is yes, then, it doesn't matter whether or not a individual unit is points efficient at removing another, it becomes more about being efficient across the entire army.

Lets say i had 3 stormtalons, 3 basic tac squads and 3 autocannon/las preds. Individually, each one is probably not that efficient at removing individual units of the horde, but i wouldn't need them to be.
3 stormtalons "should" kill 16.6 conscripts a turn, then another 6.6 if you take heavy bolters, totalling 23.2 dead.
15 tac marines will do kill another 4.4 outside of rapid fire range, totalling 27.6 dead.
Pred autocannons kill another 5.5, giving you a total of 33 dead conscripts, whilst still leaving you with another 6 lascannon shots to punish a vehicle or two.
None of this includes any re-rolls etc either.

Now, not exactly points efficient by a LONG way, but its just there to highlight a point. If you can make a large dent in a big squad each turn, while still dealing with the main threats, then, the longer the game goes on,the easier it is for you to keep control. Sure, you might not be able to kill 200 conscripts within 5 turns, but, by killing 150 of them you essentially neuter them. As soon as the big guns are gone the counter threat to you is pretty minimal. Lets face it, 50-200 conscripts outside of rapid fire range isn't really something to be overly worried about, especially if they have to target flyers or tanks.

What i listed above btw, is roughly the same amount of points as 200 conscripts, 3 commissars, 3 company commanders, 3 manticore batteries and 1 earthshaker battery. Again, just an example. Things would potentially be very different in a maelstrom mission, but, if playing for objectives then you get other options as they aren't just holding back as a screen.

Edit addon-
My 2k points list would on average (without counting in re-rolls) be able to kill 78 conscripts a turn via shooting whilst having a dedicated 1st turn CC unit, a 1st turn CC HQ, and 2 units that will shoot and charge first turn, 4 lascannons and some anti-air. I could drop this down to 71 a turn, if i used some plasma to target other units as well.So, in theory, i'd need maybe 4 turns to completely destroy 200 conscripts through shooting alone when taking casualties into account. Adding in melee, i'd expect that to be 3 turns.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

Have you tried 6 tac squads or many razorbacks or just plain shooting over their heads and pretending they are not their/ playing the objectives.

Conscripts are not broken but they do counter elite spam alpha lists because you wont table wipe them. That's a fault in your list not the conscript

That loses to basically every other list in the game, and probably loses to the conscripts as well. Tac marines are miserable.

Martel732 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

Have you tried 6 tac squads or many razorbacks or just plain shooting over their heads and pretending they are not their/ playing the objectives.

Conscripts are not broken but they do counter elite spam alpha lists because you wont table wipe them. That's a fault in your list not the conscript

That loses to basically every other list in the game, and probably loses to the conscripts as well. Tac marines are miserable.

Unless said Tac Marines are next to a Girlyman bubble, then they become pretty damn good, especially if you take some good heavy/special weapons.

But you are right, by themselves tacs aren't worth much. Which is why I don't see them often and usually my SM opponent is taking Dev Squads and Predators/Razorbacks and putting them next to girlyman or other buff characters.

Tac squads were in 7th. Now they are better especially when number of drops vecomes less important due to chapter approved changes.

Have you heard of salamanders because 6 tactical squads all with lascannons that can reroll rolls to hit and wound which gives you a fair number of bolter shots to smash some Conscripts with and rediculously strong av and no giulliman tax for the rerolls. Which means your lost can take more guns

It's funny how people find they can't deal with conscripts while deriding the tools they have to deal with them

In my local meta, we have a player who is using the conscripts blobs, commissars, and mortars to win. But the added caveat is his 12 Callidus assassins. Nerf turn 1 stratagems, pop out of the conscript squads where he needs them, and are characters. I don't think anyone has come up with a decent way, other than flyer spam, to deal with his army.

He was also talking about adding a primaris psyker as well. Not sure if this will make too big a difference though.

Can you post his list ?

So we can think a bit about counters ?

scions are probably better than calidus and do the same job really

U02dah4 wrote:
Tac squads were in 7th. Now they are better especially when number of drops vecomes less important due to chapter approved changes.

Have you heard of salamanders because 6 tactical squads all with lascannons that can reroll rolls to hit and wound which gives you a fair number of bolter shots to smash some Conscripts with and rediculously strong av and no giulliman tax for the rerolls. Which means your lost can take more guns

It's funny how people find they can't deal with conscripts while deriding the tools they have to deal with them

List tailoring is not a viable solution. And that's exactly what you advocate.

How is it list tailoring to suggest that a strong salamanders list should contain multiple tac squads as it helps you deal with both hoards and elite vehicles which makes up most of the meta particularly when reducing unit numbers is going to be less important

PandatheWarrior wrote:
Can you post his list ?

So we can think a bit about counters ?

I am not 100% sure what it is now, but he was running 12 or 13 callidus assassins, 1 commisar, 2 commanders, 4 or 5 conscripts blobs, and 4 or 5 heavy weapons mortar teams. He has stated that he cannot deal with fliers or armor, but does not really need to. He simply denies the majority of the table through the blobs, hits things too far away from the blobs with the mortars, and uses the assassins to murder his opponents infantry or characters. I don't think he has finished a whole game with the army either. His turns take a half hour to 45 minutes depending on how much he moves (and talks. He is definitely a talker!). His opponent is usually so bored by the time his turns end that the game ends up not being very fun and they either get tabled or quit.

U02dah4 wrote:
Tac squads were in 7th. Now they are better especially when number of drops vecomes less important due to chapter approved changes.

Have you heard of salamanders because 6 tactical squads all with lascannons that can reroll rolls to hit and wound which gives you a fair number of bolter shots to smash some Conscripts with and rediculously strong av and no giulliman tax for the rerolls. Which means your lost can take more guns

It's funny how people find they can't deal with conscripts while deriding the tools they have to deal with them

That is a bad solution, too inefficient in terms of pts killed per pts used to be viable. I'm deriding the suggested tools because even though they look like good solutions when you only look at the models on a tabletop, they aren't good solutions in terms of game mechanics.

U02dah4 wrote:
How is it list tailoring to suggest that a strong salamanders list should contain multiple tac squads as it helps you deal with both hoards and elite vehicles which makes up most of the meta particularly when reducing unit numbers is going to be less important

I'm ba not sallies.

Seems pretty resilient to me with decent damage output vs vehicles and passible vs conscript but I haven't had enough time to field test as the salamanders tactic is newly out. It would be a list for playing to win not table if that's what you mean but most of the lists struggling to beat hoards are those that have to table


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
How is it list tailoring to suggest that a strong salamanders list should contain multiple tac squads as it helps you deal with both hoards and elite vehicles which makes up most of the meta particularly when reducing unit numbers is going to be less important

I'm ba not sallies.

Then optimally you are a sideboard of lemartes and at most 3 dc units with a couple of baal predators which is sad because I have 10k of them. But BA are just not up to SM at least till a codex comes out

So I can't take on the Index Guard with Index BA? That seems like a poor omen.

It's the most playtested edition ever

U02dah4 wrote:
It's the most playtested edition ever

Polish a turd its still a turd.

It does certainly feel that if not 'hordes', then at least volume of fire matters a ton more than accuracy. To give you an example:

Take the Leman Russ Punisher. You can't really spam these in large numbers, but say you even took two of them with bolter load outs. That's 40 Punisher Gatling gun shots total plus 18 Heavy Bolter shots total. In this edition, since everything has a chance to hurt, that can take down ta good amount of units. Sure, not everything will die to that, but it will make a dent at least.

Now tons of shots tends to lend itself to hordes since that's usually the most cost effective way of doing massed shots. Not the only way, but it is certainly one of the ways.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
It does certainly feel that if not 'hordes', then at least volume of fire matters a ton more than accuracy. To give you an example:

Take the Leman Russ Punisher. You can't really spam these in large numbers, but say you even took two of them with bolter load outs. That's 40 Punisher Gatling gun shots total plus 18 Heavy Bolter shots total. In this edition, since everything has a chance to hurt, that can take down ta good amount of units. Sure, not everything will die to that, but it will make a dent at least.

Now tons of shots tends to lend itself to hordes since that's usually the most cost effective way of doing massed shots. Not the only way, but it is certainly one of the ways.

Which is why I say that Hordes aren't the new hotness. Gun lines are great against everything except maybe alpha strike and even that is debatable. So hordes are really only good against non-gunline armies and those are usually crap across the board so people don't take them.

Welcome to 8th edition Rock paper scissors.

SemperMortis wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
It does certainly feel that if not 'hordes', then at least volume of fire matters a ton more than accuracy. To give you an example:

Take the Leman Russ Punisher. You can't really spam these in large numbers, but say you even took two of them with bolter load outs. That's 40 Punisher Gatling gun shots total plus 18 Heavy Bolter shots total. In this edition, since everything has a chance to hurt, that can take down ta good amount of units. Sure, not everything will die to that, but it will make a dent at least.

Now tons of shots tends to lend itself to hordes since that's usually the most cost effective way of doing massed shots. Not the only way, but it is certainly one of the ways.

Which is why I say that Hordes aren't the new hotness. Gun lines are great against everything except maybe alpha strike and even that is debatable. So hordes are really only good against non-gunline armies and those are usually crap across the board so people don't take them.

Welcome to 8th edition Rock paper scissors.

Hordes are good against gunlines cause your gunline can't kill the horde fast enough, unless your gunline is also a horde.

A horde isn't just about numbers. It's about using the numbers to protect your more vulnerable assets. You can't get to hidden earthshakers through 200 conscripts, and then scions come in to take out all your heavy units.

Actually, unless your opponent is using an absurdly restrictive set of terrain, usually you can in fact get to their artillery through the conscripts by, you know, shooting them.

If they're using abusively restrictive terrain, you probably should stop playing with them.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, unless your opponent is using an absurdly restrictive set of terrain, usually you can in fact get to their artillery through the conscripts by, you know, shooting them.

If they're using abusively restrictive terrain, you probably should stop playing with them.

You can't unless your terrain is gak, and you may as well not play with terrain at all if you can just shoot anything from anywhere.

stratigo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, unless your opponent is using an absurdly restrictive set of terrain, usually you can in fact get to their artillery through the conscripts by, you know, shooting them.

If they're using abusively restrictive terrain, you probably should stop playing with them.

You can't unless your terrain is gak, and you may as well not play with terrain at all if you can just shoot anything from anywhere.

So GW's official terrain pieces are gak?

Becaues they don't hide half the board from the other half, like so many people pretend they do.

 Melissia wrote:
So GW's official terrain pieces are gak?

Yes, instead of using GW terrain you can use a sheet of paper for the same effect

GW Terrain was designed for 4th Edition rules before Trule Line of Sight was a thing
and for 8th edi rules it is pretty useless without building ground floor closed

next thing is they make stuff too look good and not to fit rules that change every 6 month
if you want terrain for gaming, buy somewhere else

Again though i have to point out that SMs don't have a problem eating through conscripts to get to the hidden yummies, Girlyman really ups the anti but you can get a similar affect with certain other SM factions and characters for a lot cheaper. The Asscan Razorbacks with rerolls kill 10-11 conscripts a turn, they kill slightly less orkz a turn but not by much. And once you get those pesky conscripts out of the way its not hard at all to pop those vehicles in the rear with all those Lascannons they bring, or go help you if they brought a Stormraven which will magically appear next to your out of sight artillery and destroy it.

Will be interesting to see how respawning Chaos Cultists are received, considering the angst directed (rightly or wrongly) at the Conscript/Commissar/Officer combo.

SemperMortis wrote:
Again though i have to point out that SMs don't have a problem eating through conscripts to get to the hidden yummies, Girlyman really ups the anti but you can get a similar affect with certain other SM factions and characters for a lot cheaper. The Asscan Razorbacks with rerolls kill 10-11 conscripts a turn, they kill slightly less orkz a turn but not by much. And once you get those pesky conscripts out of the way its not hard at all to pop those vehicles in the rear with all those Lascannons they bring, or go help you if they brought a Stormraven which will magically appear next to your out of sight artillery and destroy it.

The temporal cost kills the marines.

Enough shots will chew through a horde. Doesn't necessarily mean you need to have a horde, but in most cases it does imply a horde. Just my 2 cents.

GhostRecon wrote:
Will be interesting to see how respawning Chaos Cultists are received, considering the angst directed (rightly or wrongly) at the Conscript/Commissar/Officer combo.

You mean the 4 ppm cultists who die easier than 3 ppm conscripts, and whose cheapest access to fearless is 100+ Points and can't be spammed, compared to 30 point commissars? Cultists are literally just worse guardsmen even with the price drop, they are still nothing close to conscripts, the stratagem makes them just barely worth considering in moderation.

SemperMortis wrote:
Again though i have to point out that SMs don't have a problem eating through conscripts to get to the hidden yummies, Girlyman really ups the anti but you can get a similar affect with certain other SM factions and characters for a lot cheaper. The Asscan Razorbacks with rerolls kill 10-11 conscripts a turn, they kill slightly less orkz a turn but not by much. And once you get those pesky conscripts out of the way its not hard at all to pop those vehicles in the rear with all those Lascannons they bring, or go help you if they brought a Stormraven which will magically appear next to your out of sight artillery and destroy it.

Pure space marines are significantly less competetive than pure guard, even with guilliman, at the tournament level. The guard's triumverate of horde, effective no LoS fire, and beta strike drop in, all able to fit in the same list, is not something marines can beat

No mention of Necron warrior spam? is that a thing this edition? It sounded enticing when I was following the pre-release leaks but haven't been following the playtest reports much to see whats working and whats not.

SilverAlien wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
Will be interesting to see how respawning Chaos Cultists are received, considering the angst directed (rightly or wrongly) at the Conscript/Commissar/Officer combo.

You mean the 4 ppm cultists who die easier than 3 ppm conscripts, and whose cheapest access to fearless is 100+ Points and can't be spammed, compared to 30 point commissars? Cultists are literally just worse guardsmen even with the price drop, they are still nothing close to conscripts, the stratagem makes them just barely worth considering in moderation.

Fearless is nice but it isn't necessarily a requirement - at least in the face of the ability to bring the unit back with its full strength. And for 2CP Chaos can do that, and put the newly refreshed unit within 6" of any board edge (w/the obligatory 9" from enemy units restriction).

BS4+ instead of BS5+, plus they can benefit from Legion traits so you can tweak their role slightly. Want an ultra-fighty WS4+ horde? Trade out the autoguns for pistols and CCW + give them the World Eater's LT. Want a screening renewable tarpit? Heavy Stubbers or Flamers + the Alpha Legion's LT.

320 for 80 Cultists, at least 72 for a Dark Apostle... make them World Eaters and you have 80 models putting out 160 attacks, 240 on a charge w/LD9 and re-rolling hits... with a block of 40 returning at full strength for 2CP.

Not here to argue whether they're more OP or not than Conscripts, or to argue Conscripts themselves - merely pointing out that among Hordes Chaos Cultists are easy to make a very nasty option to face.

As a new salamander player I have been playing a lot of tyrnaid lately. They use big blobs of genestealers, hormagaunts, termagaunts, and the swarmlord/broodlord/ trygon combos to get in my face very quick.

I find my most effective squads are small 5 men tac squads, srg with combi flamer, and Las cannon. I don't have math hammer to back me up bit 6 squads like this seem to help protect against Trygons popping up, do some damage against heavy monsters, and offer some effective counter attack with flamers and over watch.

As for ig, I haven't come against the conscription blob because I am the ig player in my group and I prefer guardsmen with hb teams for fluff reasons.

But for the guy dealing with mortars, do you have the option for 3 whirlwinds? These things will tear large squads apart with the Castilian launchers for 100 pts. And good luck with those mortars really hurting the whirlwinds back. Add a captain or lieutenant back with them and use the Marines as cover. Finally I take devs with heavy bolters or a pred, again it's against tyrnaid but at the moment my win / loss ratio is 50/50 and each game has been fun.

But fire is my preference to hordes. I would love to do a bunch of land speeders with dual heavy flamers, fly in and just torch the entire squad, daring them to charge you. I need more land speeders though to try this tactic.

Considering all the possible hordes only conscripts+commissars and brimstone horrors are very good. But the AM cheap bodies are that good because the army itself is very good, they have other units that are extremely effective and all together they make the army overpowered. Brimstones could be nerfed soon, 2 points models that can cast smite with the same odds as regular psykers are clearly a mistake.

 Blackie wrote:
Considering all the possible hordes only conscripts+commissars and brimstone horrors are very good. But the AM cheap bodies are that good because the army itself is very good, they have other units that are extremely effective and all together they make the army overpowered. Brimstones could be nerfed soon, 2 points models that can cast smite with the same odds as regular psykers are clearly a mistake.

You mean Brims are already nerfed as they are 3 points and cannot cast regular smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Again though i have to point out that SMs don't have a problem eating through conscripts to get to the hidden yummies, Girlyman really ups the anti but you can get a similar affect with certain other SM factions and characters for a lot cheaper. The Asscan Razorbacks with rerolls kill 10-11 conscripts a turn, they kill slightly less orkz a turn but not by much. And once you get those pesky conscripts out of the way its not hard at all to pop those vehicles in the rear with all those Lascannons they bring, or go help you if they brought a Stormraven which will magically appear next to your out of sight artillery and destroy it.

I only have Asscan Razorbacks killing 8-9 conscripts per turn. Which means a squad of 50 will require ~6 Razorbacks shooting to kill a single squad. So that is about 900 points of shooting to kill 150 points of conscripts. It assumes the RB all make it within 24", and are in their re-roll bubble. Scions will cripple those razors shortly thereafter, so better hope there isn't another squad of conscripts behind the first one.

Breng77 wrote:


You mean Brims are already nerfed as they are 3 points and cannot cast regular smite.

I missed that. Is it from some new faq?

The new codex.

GhostRecon wrote:
[Fearless is nice but it isn't necessarily a requirement - at least in the face of the ability to bring the unit back with its full strength. And for 2CP Chaos can do that, and put the newly refreshed unit within 6" of any board edge (w/the obligatory 9" from enemy units restriction).

BS4+ instead of BS5+, plus they can benefit from Legion traits so you can tweak their role slightly. Want an ultra-fighty WS4+ horde? Trade out the autoguns for pistols and CCW + give them the World Eater's LT. Want a screening renewable tarpit? Heavy Stubbers or Flamers + the Alpha Legion's LT.

320 for 80 Cultists, at least 72 for a Dark Apostle... make them World Eaters and you have 80 models putting out 160 attacks, 240 on a charge w/LD9 and re-rolling hits... with a block of 40 returning at full strength for 2CP.

Not here to argue whether they're more OP or not than Conscripts, or to argue Conscripts themselves - merely pointing out that among Hordes Chaos Cultists are easy to make a very nasty option to face.

First off, running hordes with only LD 9 buff is not going to work. A smart enemy can easily kill 20 cultists in 2-3 units, use morale to take another 10-15, a huge increase in damage. The stratagem can only recover one unit per turn, it can't replace fearless. It's not hard to take out 60 cultists per turn and guarantee two units wipe in the morale phase. You run cultists as fearless or as msu, the latter also screwing up the stratagem.

Morale is devastating to hordes, if you can't ignore it you don't take units of more than 5-10. It's just not smart.

That's also not particularly scary damage output. Hordes are dominant more for how tough they are than how dangerous they are, and cultists are only tough in very specific builds. If you want to inflict damage look anywhere else

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to 40k. Loving it. But if I'm misunderstanding anything, please any help with the rules is so appreciated.

My girlfriend and have dived in and she's using a very unconventional horde to regularly trash me. She plays Dark Elder and uses 3 20 man squads of basic Kabalites with the cheapest load-out, 7 points a figure for 120 rapid fire poison shots hitting on a 3+. She backs this up with roving Ravagers nailing me with dark lace fire. Nasty.

I'm playing pure Death Guard at the moment with a couple of Hellbrutes for more dakka, a terrible match up. The only tactic that really messes with her blobs is moving up 2 or 3 Nurgle psykers in cover and casting Plague Wind repeatedly (mortal wounds on squad members on rolls of 6). All my command points go on avoiding the perils and making sure I don't whiff the Plague wind attacks.

It can really thin the ranks and force her out of cover and into the waiting arms of my bloat drones.

Imagine throwing 150 dice at those 50 conscripts. That's if I could get close enough...

SilverAlien wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
[Fearless is nice but it isn't necessarily a requirement - at least in the face of the ability to bring the unit back with its full strength. And for 2CP Chaos can do that, and put the newly refreshed unit within 6" of any board edge (w/the obligatory 9" from enemy units restriction).

BS4+ instead of BS5+, plus they can benefit from Legion traits so you can tweak their role slightly. Want an ultra-fighty WS4+ horde? Trade out the autoguns for pistols and CCW + give them the World Eater's LT. Want a screening renewable tarpit? Heavy Stubbers or Flamers + the Alpha Legion's LT.

320 for 80 Cultists, at least 72 for a Dark Apostle... make them World Eaters and you have 80 models putting out 160 attacks, 240 on a charge w/LD9 and re-rolling hits... with a block of 40 returning at full strength for 2CP.

Not here to argue whether they're more OP or not than Conscripts, or to argue Conscripts themselves - merely pointing out that among Hordes Chaos Cultists are easy to make a very nasty option to face.

First off, running hordes with only LD 9 buff is not going to work. A smart enemy can easily kill 20 cultists in 2-3 units, use morale to take another 10-15, a huge increase in damage. The stratagem can only recover one unit per turn, it can't replace fearless. It's not hard to take out 60 cultists per turn and guarantee two units wipe in the morale phase. You run cultists as fearless or as msu, the latter also screwing up the stratagem.

Morale is devastating to hordes, if you can't ignore it you don't take units of more than 5-10. It's just not smart.

That's also not particularly scary damage output. Hordes are dominant more for how tough they are than how dangerous they are, and cultists are only tough in very specific builds. If you want to inflict damage look anywhere else

Would look to have them as a component of a greater army - much like how Conscripts are used. Been playing around in theorycraft with:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [73 PL, 1380pts] ++

Legion: Night Lords

+ HQ +

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [8 PL, 126pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Nurgle, Prescience

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [8 PL, 126pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Gift of Chaos, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 181pts]: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 181pts]: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 181pts]: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: 3x Obliterator

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 619pts] ++

Legion: Night Lords

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Nurgle, Power maul, The Black Mace

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 71pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainaxe, Mark of Nurgle

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Nurgle
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Nurgle
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 152pts]: 37x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Nurgle
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

++ Total: [119 PL, 1999pts] ++

Gw official terrain isn't that gak just bad value proposition , you need multiple sets to build a good LOS-blocker and that ain't cheap.

I've had a lot luck playing maelstrom against hordes but I've only faced 2 horde lists so take with a pinch of salt.

Martel732 wrote:
The new codex.

And also Chaos Index FaQ, in case anyone tries to argue that they can just not use the entries (or just outright refuse to/don't know) from a non-Chaos Daemon codex.

Yeah you can't say bastions bunkers or fortresses of redemption don't block line of sight

that's why you have to pay points und bring them own your own

While the standard generic terrain you find on tables is gak, the los blocking stuff need to be on your army list and has special rules....

Breng77 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:I only have Asscan Razorbacks killing 8-9 conscripts per turn. Which means a squad of 50 will require ~6 Razorbacks shooting to kill a single squad. So that is about 900 points of shooting to kill 150 points of conscripts. It assumes the RB all make it within 24", and are in their re-roll bubble. Scions will cripple those razors shortly thereafter, so better hope there isn't another squad of conscripts behind the first one.

Asscans have 12 shots, that is 8 hits on the first round with 4 misses, 4 rerolls = 3 hits on average so thats 11. 11 hits wounding on 2 (S6 Vs T3) = 9-10 wounds with the first batch, the 2nd batch will get you 10-11. They will get a 6+ save so 9-10 will die.

A squad of 50 will take about 5 Razorbacks going full tilt turn 1 to kill them off completely. But you don't need to kill them off completely, the purpose of them is to blast a hole through their lines to get at the yummy goodness behind them. And as another point to note, you don't even need to kill the conscripts if they have any vehicles in the open, just hit them with those Ranged 48 Lascannons that are hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 3s rerolling.

Conscripts aren't that hard to deal with honestly.

Tournament results say otherwise.

Martel732 wrote:
Tournament results say otherwise.

What is scary about conscript spam honestly? what is the model count usually? I am guessing on average 100-150 conscripts. So they hide in a corner surrounded by this enormous mob and fire off their handful of heavy artillery pieces at you? And this is supposed to be scary? Going beyond the simple fact that a couple of Marine Assault squads could tie down that entire mob for the entire game, why are you scared of the shooting? I am asking seriously because I haven't played against an IG Player this edition yet. What massive artillery do they have these days that is so scary?

It's the physical barrier. It's really a temporal effect.

Martel732 wrote:
It's the physical barrier. It's really a temporal effect.

Right but the barrier has to serve a function beyond simply being a barrier an Conscripts don't. Their shooting is kind of crap and once you get into CC they just die dramatically. Ignoring CC you can just kill them from range easily enough. Hell you could charge a Dreadnought into CC with them and pull them out of range of the commissar and wipe them out easily enough.

So they aren't winning the tournaments which means something else in the IG list is scary and killing things, what is it?

No it doesn't. It just has to be. That's the problem.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tournament results say otherwise.

What is scary about conscript spam honestly? what is the model count usually? I am guessing on average 100-150 conscripts. So they hide in a corner surrounded by this enormous mob and fire off their handful of heavy artillery pieces at you? And this is supposed to be scary? Going beyond the simple fact that a couple of Marine Assault squads could tie down that entire mob for the entire game, why are you scared of the shooting? I am asking seriously because I haven't played against an IG Player this edition yet. What massive artillery do they have these days that is so scary?

It is scary. HWT squads, Manticores, psykers and FW models like Earthshaker Platforms behind a wall of conscripts get to dish out an incredible amount of shooting. If you want to go outside of AM, any Imperium units can be used in conjunction with conscripts. It is very easy to bring them as a separate detachment if need be. Melee units trying to damage or disrupt the backline will be delayed or even blocked, deepstriking units like Tau commanders and scions can be forced to drop outside of range of their optimal targets. If your force is designed to ignore the conscripts and fire over them they still pose a credible threat to your force unless you bring nothing but vehicles. In any case they can hold objectives, with the new rule coming from chapter approved that gives all troops Objective Secured there's no way to outmodel them.

The main problem is that there are no ways to kill them efficiently enough to avoid losing too much of your own force in the process because you weren't focusing on the meat of the list in the backline. Bringing asscan razorbacks is an ok solution but not fast enough to allow you to eat through the conscripts and send in melee units. Very few models are as durable as conscripts - per pt that is.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's the physical barrier. It's really a temporal effect.

Right but the barrier has to serve a function beyond simply being a barrier an Conscripts don't. Their shooting is kind of crap and once you get into CC they just die dramatically. Ignoring CC you can just kill them from range easily enough. Hell you could charge a Dreadnought into CC with them and pull them out of range of the commissar and wipe them out easily enough.

So they aren't winning the tournaments which means something else in the IG list is scary and killing things, what is it?

Their shooting really isn't crap, with a cheap commander dishing out FRFSRF to a whole squad at once they are at least putting out above average damage for a typical troop squad. They are also a bigger threat in melee than you might think, if you try to tie them up with ASM you will kill a few and then suffer the effects of the order that allows them to fallback and shoot, most likely with a large proportion of double shots thanks to rapid fire.

They are also most definitely winning tournaments, the recent Bay Area Open featured only 2 undefeated lists out of ~100 - both of those lists were AM with ~100 conscripts. Previously the AM lists were probably inferior to the stormraven spam lists but since fliers have been FAQ'd the stormraven lists have actually been bringing in conscripts too...

And the ETC near me had IK first and green tide second and no AM in the top 8 there are just not enough tournaments yet to draw firm conclusions given the meta changes with each faq/codex release and it's not like that's every other week.

AM conscripts are perceived as a threat because they are a hard counter to elite Alpha lists because Lascannons can't kill conscripts fast enough and alpha lists don't win games if they don't table.

The silly complaint of you can't move them off 4/6 objectives is ludicrous because they don't start off on 4 and if you can't shoot one away your taking to much AV. Make sure objectives are as spaced out as you can because conscripts arnt moving anywhere quick.

As to shooting in rapid fire range 30 conscripts at 90 pts with frf cause 6.66 armour saves against t4-5 and that's assuming 70pts of taxed character's but it's rare to get that

Conversely 20 infantry at 80pts with frf cause 6.66 armour saves against t4-5 and that's assuming 70pts of taxed character's and easier to get them in range plus weapons options

Conscripts only advantage is body count

It's the only advantage they need in practice. Slow down army X, and make them eat an extra two turns of artillery. Game over. Any resource at all spent killing conscripts is a win for the IG.

 Rezyn wrote:
No mention of Necron warrior spam? is that a thing this edition? It sounded enticing when I was following the pre-release leaks but haven't been following the playtest reports much to see whats working and whats not.

Necrons ended up being one of the worst armies in the game.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Rezyn wrote:
No mention of Necron warrior spam? is that a thing this edition? It sounded enticing when I was following the pre-release leaks but haven't been following the playtest reports much to see whats working and whats not.

Necrons ended up being one of the worst armies in the game.

So far GW is on board with rebalancing things (in the case of certain chaos units, [i]heavily rebalancing!), so I bet when the codex comes out necrons will benefit a lot.