Hey guys,

I wanted to discuss a thing that I think we're going to see happening here into the future. There's a lot of conflicting noise about certain release schedules of Codexes, and I know GW doesn't want to be 'predictable' when it comes to releases, lest their competitors get a leg up.

That said, I'm going to throw a little theory out there. The theory is that we are, eventually, going to see 4 plastic Loyalist Primarchs and 4 plastic Chaos Primarchs before 8th edition is done.

This all began with 30k - Horus Heresy - released by Forgeworld. Because it was Marine v Marine, with many of the armies sharing most of the rules for units and weapons, it was one of the most balanced games to come out of the 40k franchise. It became a huge success very quickly, and when the first resin Primarchs were revealed, people went absolutely bonkers. So far, Forgeworld has done 13 of the Primarchs of the original Legions. That means only 5 more for the known Legions are left, a staggering display of sculpting and character prowess. Here they all are, for your convenience:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Magnus-the-Red-Primarch-of-the-Thousand-Sons-Legion-2017
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Perturabo-Primarch-of-the-Iron-Warriors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Corvus-Corax
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Horus-the-Warmaster-Primarch-of-the-Sons-of-Horus
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/roboute-guilliman-primarch-of-the-ultramarines
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Ferrus-Manus-Primarch-of-the-Iron-Hands
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Fulgrim-Primarch-of-the-Emperor-s-Children
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mortarion-the-Reaper-Primarch-of-the-Death-Guard
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Lorgar-Primarch-of-the-Word-Bearers
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Konrad-Curze-Primarch-of-the-Night-Lords
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Vulkan-Primarch-of-the-Salamanders
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Angron-Primarch-of-the-World-Eaters
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Leman-Russ-Primarch-of-the-Space-Wolves

That leaves Rogal Dorn, Alpharius Omegon, Lion El'Johnson, Sangunius, and Jaghatai Khan.

During the time of Forgeworld releasing these Primarchs, there was a lot of talk of 'What about the Daemon Primarchs?' and there were various FW staff saying they wanted very much, or that they planned, to do the Daemon Primarchs, showing the fall of these great loyalists into the corruption of Chaos.

Fast forward to now. Magnus the Red comes out. GW doing the Daemon Primarchs? Unthinkable! It pushed the 8th edition rumors into overdrive, and when it finally hit, here we have Roboute Guilliman coming back from the dead, with Mortarion fast on his heels! Then there's the image on the inside of the cover of the 40k 8th ed rulebook that shows a figure very much looking like Sanguinius fighting Chaos!

First, it seems really unbalanced and a bit unfair to have just the one Loyalist Primarch. Setting aside fluff reasons, game balance is bonkers right now, with many Space Marine lists mandating taking this guy to bulk out your army. But that leaves a lot of other Chapters scratching their head. Iron Hands lead by Roboute Guilliman? Better yet, Space Wolves led by the Primarch of the Ultramarines? It makes for a bland meta where non-Marines focus on how they can take down Guilliman instead of building their armies the way they want to.

So, what's the answer? Or rather, what's the answer GW wants? In other words, what's the answer that is going to get people to buy more models? More Primarchs.

I'm calling it now. We're going to see Leman Russ, Lion El'Johnson, Sanguinius, Daemon Fulgrim, and Daemon Angron before 8th edition is done. Notice that Forgeworld hasn't done two of those loyalist sculpts yet, and they haven't done any of the Daemon Primarchs that they said they would. This is because FW is a sub-company under GW. GW has every right to take on well-selling projects and make them their own, in plastic. Need proof? Look at the Horus Heresy box set, the Contemptor, the Cataphractii Terminators, and other 30k things that GW has put out.

What do you guys think? What sorts of fluff do you think they might use to bring back Sanguinius, Leman, and the Lion?

Quick side note, Rogal Dorn by forgeworld is done and should be out soon. They're currently working on Alpharius.

Simply bringing Sanguinius back to life would not be appropriate. They should release a fancy supersized Sanguinor instead and pump his rules to Primarch levels *hint hint*.

Sanguinius - The Sanguinor turned out to be his soul all along and just needed a body.

Leman Russ - Comes back from the Eye (this is applicable to Corax as well)

Lion - Nothing really. DA lore states that the one secret even the Grand Master doesn't know is that the Lion sleeps within the deepest chamber of the Rock, he just need to be called upon to awaken (highly hinted to be Cypher's quest, where if he presents the sword on his back to the Emperor the Primarch will return).

It seems likely that Angron will return during the campaign for Armageddon, along with the Blood Crusade of Khornate Daemons.

Yeah, I concur. With three primarchs out (including Mortarion), why would they stop at that? After Mort, a loyalist primarch will return and so on.

And if I had to guess, I'd say they will bring back Sanguinius.

Then there's the image on the inside of the cover of the 40k 8th ed rulebook that shows a figure very much looking like Sanguinius fighting Chaos!

Nice spot! In the Imperial Dungeon outside the throne room no less.

I truly believe the DA codex is being delayed in order to coincide with The Lion's release (much like the DG/Mortarion release soon).

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I truly believe the DA codex is being delayed in order to coincide with The Lion's release (much like the DG/Mortarion release soon).

This is my thinking. The rumors that say that the rest of the Space Marine chapters are just going to be 'wrapped up' by the end of the year are steering towards wrong in my mind. They're going to space them out with other things so they can give appropriate time for the new Primarchs to be released. My hope is that they stick with a Loyal/Chaos/Loyal/Chaos pattern as they've been doing so far, as that would mean that after the next Loyal one, we'd have a high chance of getting Daemon Angron or Fulgrim!

I do hope they release Ferrus Manus with a bionic head. haha Ferrus Caput! I agree with most of what you posted and it really opens up a lot of interesting possibilities with the background as well. here is my list of predictions with some wish listing on their form:

Loyalists:
Guilliman
Primarch Dreadnought Lion El'Jonson?
fully empowered Sanguinor?
Wolfen mutated Russ?

Traitor:
Magnus
Mortarion
Angron
Fulgrim

that gives each space marine codex and chaos marine dedicated legion a big guy for release

but what about the rumor that one of the loyalists will be traitor and one of the traitors turn loyal? maybe its hogwash but I could see a Wolfen Russ being treated as a mutant heretic by most of the imperium even if he's not necessarily chaos aligned, but the only traitor primarch i can remotely see declaring for the emperor even if he's not accepted and who is not already a daemon primarch is Alpharius/Omegon but i don't feel like they have the gravitas or purchase appeal to replace any of the 4 damon primarchs above.

Why is The Lion a dreadnought again? He's just sleeping inside the Rock.

Regardless of what happens, I just hope GW leaves the dead Primarchs dead. Manus, Sanguinius, Horus, Curze...they're dead. Please don't slaughter the fluff anymore than it already is.

I agree about the dead ones and was joking about Ferrus Manus but I do think the door has been cracked for Sanguinious to return in spirit as the Sanguinor. it also sorta fits with the loose blood angel / vampire thing they have going on and their Primarch being risen from the dead or at least his spirit in a new body is kinda cool and is essentially what the Sanguinor already is as far as I'm aware. I was just speculating about the lion dreadnought thing but it would at least give them an opportunity to release something other than big guy with big sword which is what Guilliman already is.

If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

 Bottle wrote:

Then there's the image on the inside of the cover of the 40k 8th ed rulebook that shows a figure very much looking like Sanguinius fighting Chaos!

Nice spot! In the Imperial Dungeon outside the throne room no less.

If it is outside the throne room wouldn't that make that figure the Emperor and not Sanguinius. I just hope GW keeps with the alternating release of traitor/loyal primarchs.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

I'm with this 100%!

I've been a BA player since the mid 90s "Angels of Death" codex dropped and I believe bringing back ol' Sangy
would be the worst mistake GW could make in regards to the 40k fluff/universe.

I'm not sure that they should bring back Sanguinious. He died so BigE could see the depths Horus had fallen to, leading to him obliterating the Traitor.

But I think if the Sanguinor was infused into a dread or something like that, it might work.

They should bring back the ones that aren't deader than dead, i.e. Russ/Vulkan/Lion etc.
Ferrus Manus with a cyborg head would be interesting but.....

Maybe for the daemon primarchs they should showcase at least one that isn't a mutated mess(mortarion).

Alpharius/Omegron would be cool bit not enuff XX fans out there (I'm 1)
I think Angron would be Cool as long as he's just a bigger more pi$$ed off one, like the perfect example of a really angry dude (like if Glenn Danzig was a primarch)

Sanguinius - I love BA to death and will probably start an army but please keep him dead. Maybe make the Sanguinor channel Sanguinius' power. Sanguinius returning is straight up necromancy and IMO would ruin the appeal of Blood Angels and possibly undermine his character.

Please release Sanguinius for 30k though.

Also, Horus is dead so it would be unfair for Sanguinius to return.

Wulfen Russ would be cool. Not sure about the Lion.

 Biohavok wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

I'm with this 100%!

I've been a BA player since the mid 90s "Angels of Death" codex dropped and I believe bringing back ol' Sangy
would be the worst mistake GW could make in regards to the 40k fluff/universe.

Honestly, giving individual SM chapters their own codicies was a mistake. After that, bring on Sanguinius!

To be honest, the only reason I even suggest Sanguinius is because the Blood Angels have their own Codex. GW is notorious for ignoring the 'lesser' chapters (those without their own Codex or those not tied directly to a Chaos God).

To that regard, I really doubt we'll see anything for Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, White Scars, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or Black Legion.

Maybe we'll get a much more awesome Abaddon model in the future, since he desperately needs one (he's looking pretty tiny compared to the new Primaris) but this is also GW we're talking about. They know the numbers. They know how many Magnus the Red models they sold. They know how many Roboute Guilliman models that they're selling, and they'll know how many Mortarion models that they will sell. This is going to dictate their releases going into the next year with regards to these gigantic character models. Only if Magnus and Mortarion do REALLY WELL will they consider Angron and Fulgrim.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Biohavok wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

I'm with this 100%!

I've been a BA player since the mid 90s "Angels of Death" codex dropped and I believe bringing back ol' Sangy
would be the worst mistake GW could make in regards to the 40k fluff/universe.

Honestly, giving individual SM chapters their own codicies was a mistake. After that, bring on Sanguinius!

How do you rate individual Chapter codices a mistake? They have always been popular and add choice/flavour to the game.

I think part of the fun now they are obviously open to bringing back or making models of the Primarch's is the anticipation and speculation on how and when they will do it! Sanguinius I agree should remain dead although the soul in another form would be plausible (just) even considering the fluff from the early era of GW. I also have a suspicion that in regards to the traitor to loyalist and vice versa it could well be the Lion who is turncoat since the 'fallen' were actually loyalists who thought Lion was doing the wrong thing by the Emperor and continued to fight for what BigE believed in, and I think Alpharius could quite easily be a wonderful loyalist and the only one that would be believable it would also give great scope to the twisted threads of story and lay foundations for some very Tzeetchian long game plots!

I hope Vulkan is the large human in baroque armour that the Necron Lord has in his collection, hence he'll be back!

Russ will be back and he'll be angry as hell out of the warp, depending on how they play the time spent in there, it could be hours or years after the heresy or it could have flowed thousands of years and make him slightly more barbaric!

As for Rogal Dorn i'm conflicted, having been into 40K since I was 14 (a long time ago) the original fluff and even in some novels had the Fists in possession on his entire skeleton and his hands were kept separate as sacred relics, they used to scrape the waxy residue from his bones and drink it in a ritual brew, where now i've read that ominous 'They only found one of Rogal Dorn's FISTS' on the battlefield, which is a bit silly but means he could come back with a bionic hand.

I think Primarch's that are dead in 40k timeline should stay dead. I think this is a great opportunity for GW to advance the lore and make new Primarch's for those dead. This way they get their fun toys, it doesn't break the lore, it's an interesting story of trying to find just who would be worthy of becoming a successor Primarch, and it doesn't invalidate the sacrifices and lore of those lost. Think of what Sanguinus successor would say and think if he knew he had to live up the legacy of his predeccesor. it would be a great story to see him dealing with those emotions and coming into his own. You also then get the whole inexperienced Primarch angle going on so they can contrast with the older more grim ones.

You guys are thinking way too small.

First the Primarchs will come back with even Sanguinius Jesusing himself back to life...

Then Horus will magically reform in the warp...

Then the Emperor will wake up...

Then 40k will be back in the Horus Heresy.

The biggest bummer for future releases for me is that clearly the big 4 on both sides will get a primarch.
Gulliman
Lion
Sangunor..inous?
Russ
Angron
Fulgrim
Mort
Mag

But all the other codex chapters get left in the dust. And the other big legions of Chaos. (Imperial fists and Word Bearers player here.)

Great releases none the less! I love the big boys coming back to town. Cant Wait to see the Rogal Dorn Model.

Sanguinius is one of the only primarchs actually confirmed dead. I sincerely doubt they'd ever bring him back. Even Guilliman was only in stasis, with the occasional bit of fluff saying his wounds were slowly healing.

I could see GW eventually bringing out primarchs for the lesser ones. at least where it makes sense. I think Vulkan and Lorgar would be pretty popular ones.

BrianDavion wrote:
I could see GW eventually bringing out primarchs for the lesser ones. at least where it makes sense. I think Vulkan and Lorgar would be pretty popular ones.

I would buy Vulkan in a heartbeat

Emissary wrote:
Quick side note, Rogal Dorn by forgeworld is done and should be out soon. They're currently working on Alpharius.

They should never do an alpharius model because there already is one, it's your standard alpha legion marine model.

In terms of codex and Primarch releases, I'd like to direct the audience to the Age of Sigmar release schedule.

For the most part, it's linked to the evolving narrative. So Alarielle was released when she assumed her War Aspect in the background. Kharadron Overlords descended from the skies following Sigmar's successes in the Realmgate Wars - after all, there's new cities to trade with....

I'm expecting much the same of 40k, and it's what we've started to see already. Deathguard aren't just coming out on the shelves, but becoming central to the narrative for now - it's their show for the time being.

I suspect we will see The Lion soon, if only because it seems The Changeling went an let Luther out of his cell. If that doesn't get his best bud up and out of bed, nothing will!

As much as I want the the model, I hope to god they don't bring back Sanguinius.

Bringing back Vulkan or the Lion makes the most sense, Corax and Khan wouldn't be too outrageous either. Dorn is almost definitely dead and I don't think they'll be in a hurry to bring back Russ as after his parting quote, it would be heralding the end.

I'd say the next one will be Lion. Sanguinius is dead, and him being dead is too important to the fluff and the Chapter that they could just fix him up again. Lion is just sleeping in his rock, let Cawl visit him and viola, 2 loyalist Primarchs up and running again. And they could release him in the new Codex Dark Angels, how convenient is that?

Wolves had their spotlight at the end of 7th, and the Vanilla guys had their spotlight at the start of 8th. So it's gonna be Lion at some point and then - hopefully - a long time of no new Primarchs. Give the other factions some love. Maybe release Vulkan, Corax or Khan once the other factions got new toys or at least their new Codex.

I want Angron next. I mean look at this dude:

The Lion is the only primarch that would sit down with Guilliman, listen to Guilliman explain his plans, agree they are probably the best course of action, and then tell Guilliman to go feth himself, he does what he wants.

Every other Loyalist would be a second fiddle to Guilliman, and follow his plans since that was his thing. The Lion would make some internal conflict, and probably be the most interesting narrative wise.

Though seeing GW doing the Khan, riding a jet bike, with a few bisected traitors beneath him...

 Gamgee wrote:
I think Primarch's that are dead in 40k timeline should stay dead. I think this is a great opportunity for GW to advance the lore and make new Primarch's for those dead. This way they get their fun toys, it doesn't break the lore, it's an interesting story of trying to find just who would be worthy of becoming a successor Primarch, and it doesn't invalidate the sacrifices and lore of those lost. Think of what Sanguinus successor would say and think if he knew he had to live up the legacy of his predeccesor. it would be a great story to see him dealing with those emotions and coming into his own. You also then get the whole inexperienced Primarch angle going on so they can contrast with the older more grim ones.

I like the way you think.

I still think that a headless frankenstinian monstrosity made from Ferrus Manus's body taken to Mars and implanted with a rudimentary brain-in-a-jar it wears on its back is hilarious.

You could even have a unit that swaps out the brain mid-battle for another brain. "MANUS SMASH!" "Wait no we need psychic powers!" *swaps in psychic brain!* "MANUS MIND-BULLET BUT FORGET HOW TO FIGHT UUUGNNGNG"

I really don't see them holding back with Leman Russ. His return heralds the end times, but hey, we're there. The 13th Black Crusade happened, Guilliman is back, the Maledictum is stretching across the galaxy. The thing that everyone was begging GW to do (advancing the plot a little closer to doomsday) happened, and lo and behold, we're even CLOSER to doomsday.

Leman Russ, Vulkan, and the Lion seem like the most probably choices to return, with Jaghatai, Corvus, and Dorn bringing up the less likely ones (in that order). Sanguinus should stay dead, as should Manus.

Chaos is more interesting, as you have a much greater variety of Primarchs that can return. Lorgar, Perturabo, Angron, and Fulgrim are all on the table. I would Imagine Fulgrim and Angron being the two chosen, but I can totally see Lorgar or Pert getting the nod.

An interesting twist I still hear about is making one Chaos Primarch turn face and one Loyalist turn heel. In that sense the two most obvious ones are Leman (not so much turn to Chaos but turn on the sham and mockery of his father's legacy that is the Imperium) and Fulgrim finally getting out of the mirror.

My take on it is this.

Chaos will get the 'big four' chaos god primarchs. We've already got Magnus, and we're getting Mortarion shortly. We'll get Fulgrim next I suspect (for chaos, I'll clarify, no idea on when he'll actually have a model released, next year some time or maybe longer) and then Angron will round out the list. They referenced Fulgrim in the last Gathering Storm book in a brief blurb, so they're laying at least a little groundwork for his model in the future.

For Imperial, it's going to be a little trickier.

I expect we will get at least three more primarchs to fight alongside Guilliman. The obvious choice for one is the Lion, and I expect him to be here sooner rather than later.
Past that, it's a toss up. Russ is likely, as is Khan, both would be good alongside Guilliman and the Lion, especially the love/hate relationship with Russ and the Lion.

We'll see what comes in due course.

I also will add that I do personally hope to see Sanguinius revived in some way. People say he needs to stay dead, that's fine and well, but if GW decides to do it, and it is quite possible they could through at least one avenue, then folks are just going to have to accept it or leave the hobby, and I can think of better reason for leaving the hobby than a character being revived from the dead. It's rather childish to make that 'threat', to leave the hobby all together, especially if you don't even play the faction this would impact directly (Blood Angels, or their successor chapters).
I feel like we will get Sanguinius back in some form or another, personally. Time will tell.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

The rumour I have heard is that Russ will be the next loyalist Primarch to return with the idea that he is hot on the heels of Magnus after what he (nearly) did to the Fenris system in WoM. I would expect Russ in Spring 2018 assuming GW continue there pattern of 1 traitor and 1 loyalist Primarch per year.

I have not heard any reliable rumours about who will be coming after that. The Lion is a good bet, especially since the 7th Ed codex made a big thing about the fact he is fully healed and ready to go. He doesn't even require a shiny big plot device suit of armour like Roboute, just an alarm clock.

I don't know where the loyalists will go after that. There was a plan a very long time ago that Sanguinius would return by possessing Mephiston but that was before they released the Sanguinor so it may well have been abandoned. Sufficeit to say, they have at least 2 characters who could potentially wind up being Sangy reincarnated.

The other Primarchs could easily turn up too. Vulkan and Khan are simply missing (I always like the idea that the ominous force hammering on Khaine's Gate in Comorragh was actually a seriously peeved Khan trying to smash his way out of the Webway). Lorgar and Perturabo could turn up easily enough too.

Dorn is an interesting one particularly in light of "Praetorian of Dorn".

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Biohavok wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

I'm with this 100%!

I've been a BA player since the mid 90s "Angels of Death" codex dropped and I believe bringing back ol' Sangy
would be the worst mistake GW could make in regards to the 40k fluff/universe.

Honestly, giving individual SM chapters their own codicies was a mistake. After that, bring on Sanguinius!

How do you rate individual Chapter codices a mistake? They have always been popular and add choice/flavour to the game.

They're un-necessary. Their army rules are 90%+ similar to ordinary space marines, and could have been covered just as well by simply making space marines themselves a bit more flexible.

Hell, 8th edition BA could have been represented by simply taking lots of fast attack choice detachments and stuffing your list with assault marines.

The rest could be easily done with chapter tactics, relics, warlord traits, and stratagems.

As for the fluff, I'm not opposed to releasing fluff books for individual chapters, especially if they were divorced from any kind of edition rules. That way they could spend the time fleshing out a chapter once, rather than polluting the release schedule with them every. single. edition.

As for choice/flavor to the game...

Every single chapter codex released is a new xenox army that wasn't.

They're a new actual game expansion that didn't happen.

SWs was possibly a Sisters of Battle codex that got scrapped.

Dark Angels was possibly a Kroot Codex.

Blood Angels was possibly an earlier Adeptus Mechanicus.

Everything gets sidelined for space marines. Every. Single. Time.

It's frustrating.

Just think about all of the other things that could have been added to the game in their place, if they had been handled more efficiently and grouped with the rest of the marines where they belong.

We could have more Orks. More Eldar. More 'nids. More Necrons. More Tau. More IG. More Ad Mech.

Just look at how big the SM codex is compared to all the other army codicies. Then understand that the page-count imbalance between them and the rest of the armies in the game is partly due to the Blood Angels.

...and the Dark Angels.
...and the Space Wolves.
...and the Gray Knights.

I'd have absolutely no problem with the additional codicies if the xenos armies had gotten the same treatment. If the playing field were even between factions. Unfortunately they're not, and until I see more time and effort spent expanding on the other armies I'll continue to believe that the chapter codicies are still mistakes. If Eldar and Orks also had four codicies each, I'd be less inclined to be annoyed by the imbalance.

They don't. So here I am.

TL;DR: Codex: BA was a mistake because SM was the only faction to get that kind of attention.

Lorgar is specifically called out as being active again (finally) at the head of an enormous host of Word Bearers.

One other thing to note, Karhedron, regarding the Gathering Storm books:

There was a reference to Trayzen (spelling?) having a giant hulking figure in golden armor in his collection. This could possibly be Dorn, as he wore a golden suit of power armor, or it might also be Vulkan too, depending on how much gold his armor has. It's a toss up, but either option might be interesting to consider.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if we get the 'big four' primarchs to match the 'big four' chaos gods.

The big four primarchs being Ultramarines (Guilliman), Space Wolves (Leman Russ), Dark Angels (Lion El-Johnson), and Blood Angels (Sanguinius). If we get the Lion or Russ next after Mortarion, that only further lends credence to that theory.

Seems like a logical step, but of course we won't know till it happens or credible rumors start flowing. Time will tell.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Yes, Trazyn's collectible giant in power armour is a nice plot hook waiting for GW to dangle something juicy from it. It is sufficiently vague that it could be anything from a missing Primarch to the last Thunder Warrior.

I agree that the Big 4 Primarchs on each side seem likely although Sanguinious is somewhat problematic. Still, if GW hold to their current release schedule, they have until 2020 to decide on a suitable plot to bring him back. I am sure they will dangle enough hints before then to soften up the doubters.

Cawl will no doubt be the instigator of bringing Sanguinus back because f*** Cawl.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Cawl will no doubt be the instigator of bringing Sanguinus back because f*** Cawl.

I actually foresee Cawl having nothing to do with Sanguinius reviving, honestly.

The only outside force I can see logically doing anything with it would be Yvraine, and her reviving power. Cawl only came into play to put the power armor on Guilliman to keep him alive and the poison in his system at bay once Yvraine revived him.

Sanguinius, if revived, would presumably have had his wounds healed in the process. Speculation of course.

We'll see. Lots of time to wait and see what comes.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It would be nice to see Manus show up so the Iron Hands could finally get a character. But knowing GW, I am not holding my breathe. But I think they could do an amazing job bringing him back as monstrous dreadnought. Most of the Iron Hands players I know (a surprisingly large number in my area) would buy the model in a heartbeat.

This thread is funny to read, people are longing for Primarchs that have essentially dissappeared and never heard of since. And these are considered probable characters to return.

Meanwhile several chaos primarchs have never dissappeared and reading fluff have been there all the time, mostly bickering between themselves and who knows what else.

Anyway, knowing GW of the past, most likely to return are the said Loyalist dissappeared primarchs. GW is in the business of doing money, and doing money generally works in the way of providing something for the majority (space marines!) and thus Space Marines will get more nice stuff, to their already bloated selection.
Ok enough with saltiness, here is my honest opinion:

I liked the old setting of fluff, where Primarchs were these semi-mythical heroes of old, the facts and fiction starting to get mixed with them. This is actually very common trope in fantasy settings, mostly because it leaves it upon one's imagination how these primarchs or mythical characters actually were. Also following up on this trope logically, consider the fact of primarchs used to be depicted in fluff as these demigod-like mythical superheroes. What if the actual unwritten truth of dissappeared loyalist primarchs is that they just grew old and tired and died in the end - not very flashy or even mythical way to go. This would explain many of the mysterious stories of dissappearing primarchs in the old and current fluff. But all in all 40k fluff is man made fiction, so it can be changed at will any time, and this kind of logical analysis of it is essentially pointless. Although I had fun thinking about this now, and I have had fun thinking about it when I was 14 years old.

By releasing primarchs this aspect is taken away, we can calculate easily that Roboute Guilliman is statistically more durable than Land Raider when shot with Lascannons. There is nothing mythical there, this primarch is genetically enginereed super hulk more durable than a heavy tank.

They should IMO forget the primarchs (not gonna happen) and concentrate on giving all the subfactions of various factions their own special characters, in similar way how many space marine chapters already have their own special characters.

It would be nice if other factions, like Eldar and Tyranids, got their own 'Primarch' sort of models. Large, leader-type figures that could be the centerpiece of an army. Unlike AoS, 40k doesn't have as many large 'centerpiece' models. The Primarchs fit that role, as do the Imperial Knights and other big mechanical things, but some armies have more than others and it creates a visual and rule-based imbalance.

That's the big thing that these Primarchs are bringing to the table. A real tangible imbalance.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they bring back Sanguinius then I think I will be done with this game. The whole point is that Sanguinius sacrificed himself and was totally and utterly destroyed by Horus.

Remove that and you remove the entire point of the sacrifice.

Of course, thatw hole thing is, in and of itself, a retcon.

Originally, he died at the hands of a Blood Thirster, slain at the gate of the Emperor's Palace. Back snapped and hurled to the ground, his dying thoughts echo'd in the minds of the Blood Angels there, and the echo of that moment is the Black Rage.

Meanwhile, in the final confrontation between the Emperor and Horus, with Horus winning, a single Imperial Guardsman (lowest of the low!) staggered in and dstracted Horus from the killing blow. This man, Ollanius Pius, was *brutally* murdered by Horus, which is when the Emperor, bloodied and beaten, realized that his son was gone and finally took the last step and zapped his brain to dust.

Ollanius Pius had an AMAZING story and it's a shame that he's been displaced by Sanguinus in newer versions.

drbored wrote:
It would be nice if other factions, like Eldar and Tyranids, got their own 'Primarch' sort of models. Large, leader-type figures that could be the centerpiece of an army.

Many races do. Eldar have the Avatar and now the Yncarne. Nids have various big gribblies to lead them. Orks have Gazzy who is almost in the same size bracket. Necrons have C'tan, Tau have bigger suits. Chaos have Daemon princes and greater Daemons. Primarchs are really just giving the Imps MC-sized leaders.

 Karhedron wrote:

drbored wrote:
It would be nice if other factions, like Eldar and Tyranids, got their own 'Primarch' sort of models. Large, leader-type figures that could be the centerpiece of an army.

Many races do. Eldar have the Avatar and now the Yncarne. Nids have various big gribblies to lead them. Orks have Gazzy who is almost in the same size bracket. Necrons have C'tan, Tau have bigger suits. Chaos have Daemon princes and greater Daemons. Primarchs are really just giving the Imps MC-sized leaders.

LolGazzy.

Fluffwise, he should be in the same bracket as Primarch Roboute. Gamewise, he's barely Space Marine Captain Joe Bloggs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
Then there's the image on the inside of the cover of the 40k 8th ed rulebook that shows a figure very much looking like Sanguinius fighting Chaos!

Where is this picture? I have checked my copy of the 8th BRB and I can't see anything that looks vaguely Sanguinius-ey in either the first or last few pages

It's on the inside cover at the back I believe. Certainly looks like Sanguinius; human looking with large feathered wings. I'd much rather see the Sanguinor buffed and rereleased with a beastly mini rather than Sanguinius being revived. If Sanguinius returns then I feel we are in the same neighbourhood as Horus reincarnating or the Emperor not being a skeleton in a chair anymore.

Bremon wrote:
It's on the inside cover at the back I believe. Certainly looks like Sanguinius; human looking with large feathered wings.

Hmm, doesn't seem to be in my digital version. I'll have to steal back my real life copy and take a look. I pretty much always use the digital version now, it's so much easier.

That scene with Sanguinius outside the throne room has been used a lot of times though, it's a pretty iconic scene. I remember the Nottingham warhammer world used to have a big diorama of it many years ago. (May still be there, I havent been there in a long time)

Median Trace wrote:
It would be nice to see Manus show up so the Iron Hands could finally get a character. But knowing GW, I am not holding my breathe. But I think they could do an amazing job bringing him back as monstrous dreadnought. Most of the Iron Hands players I know (a surprisingly large number in my area) would buy the model in a heartbeat.

I would say the fact he was decapitated prevents him from coming back even as a dreadnought. However, Fulgrim had several clones of Manus made (because Fulgrim missed Manus). All the clones thought Fulgrim was a traitor and tried to kill him. Who is to say a clone doesn't somehow escape or avoid death and be found.

However I doubt it will happen as GW failed to even give the Iron Hands decent rules this time around.

Which is why I do not like the return of the Primarchs. They are just more buffs to other armies that the Iron Hands will never get. If the lack of primarch was made up elsewhere it wouldn't even be an issue for me.

Really really really hope for Wulfen mode Leman Russ, would be so cool to have a giant beast emerge from the Eye ready to dominate close combat

Loyalists shouldn't have had their Primarchs return in the first place. At least the Daemon Primarchs where always there, it was - as lazy as they were - one of the few things that made Chaos seem remotely threatening, the fact their Primarchs are still in the galaxy and actively working to bring down the Imperium. The moment GW started bring back the Loyalists the already pathetic threat Chaos felt like just shrunk even more.

 Arandmoor wrote:

They're un-necessary. Their army rules are 90%+ similar to ordinary space marines, and could have been covered just as well by simply making space marines themselves a bit more flexible.

Hell, 8th edition BA could have been represented by simply taking lots of fast attack choice detachments and stuffing your list with assault marines.

The rest could be easily done with chapter tactics, relics, warlord traits, and stratagems.

TL;DR: Codex: BA was a mistake because SM was the only faction to get that kind of attention.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. A Kroot codex? Really? Different Ork codexes? They have their tribes that work.

Since 2nd Edition the game has had Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves with their own books, although the scope of the books and ranges has varied. They're quite popular, so they keep getting made. Like it or not Space Marines are at the heart of the game. Look at the literature. Space Marines work because they are elevated/enhanced humans that we can still relate to in some manner.

I would LOVE to have Deamon Angron in 40k I love him in my 12th for 30k.

I was browsing the latest White Dwarf, and Vulkan got several mentions in their 30 years of 40k lists. I don't know why but it stuck out to me, at least more than any other mentions. Maybe foreshadowing, maybe the White Dwarf team just really likes him, but either way I think seeing him back next would make a lot of sense.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

They're un-necessary. Their army rules are 90%+ similar to ordinary space marines, and could have been covered just as well by simply making space marines themselves a bit more flexible.

Hell, 8th edition BA could have been represented by simply taking lots of fast attack choice detachments and stuffing your list with assault marines.

The rest could be easily done with chapter tactics, relics, warlord traits, and stratagems.

TL;DR: Codex: BA was a mistake because SM was the only faction to get that kind of attention.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. A Kroot codex? Really? Different Ork codexes? They have their tribes that work.

Since 2nd Edition the game has had Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves with their own books, although the scope of the books and ranges has varied. They're quite popular, so they keep getting made. Like it or not Space Marines are at the heart of the game. Look at the literature. Space Marines work because they are elevated/enhanced humans that we can still relate to in some manner.

apparently GW somehow owes it to him to produce armies that won't sell a quarter as well

I'm not a fan of the Primarchs returning in general.

Primarchs were supposed to be mythic figures shrouded in mystery, beyond history, beyond legend, beyond understanding.

The 40k narrative that has driven this universe for so long was built upon a post-apocalyptic wasteland where nobody mattered, where insanity reigned and the world was beyond order or saving. Bringing back the Primarchs flies in the face of that. It's been one of my constant issues with 30k (and the ultimately terrible pettyness of the Primarchs and their motivations in many instances), but at least that was a distinct setting widely separated from the "40k" narrative.

This is what 40k is about.

Warhammer 40,000 Intro wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. ..."

Bringing back the Primarchs really kinda poops on that in a lot of ways. Suddenly there is hope of progress and understanding, there are people who will be missed, there is the power of technology and science and rediscovery.

Blech.



(But seriously, at least keep the definitively dead primarchs dead).

Warhammer 40,000 Intro wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Cawl is the worst offender in this regard, not only relearning old tech but also making advancements and spreading them far and wide in the Imperium. Where are the inquisitors? Why has his execution not been scheduled already? Whether Guilliman is going to protect him or not there should be internal conflict as a result of his heretical actions.

 Vaktathi wrote:
(But seriously, at least keep the definitively dead primarchs dead).

Don't worry so much about death. Abaddon has died about a thousand times in games I've fielded him or gone against him. He always seems to get better.

I have heard from someone who claims to have a source high up at GW. All the surviving Primarchs will get released eventaully, only the deader-than-dead 4 will not be coming out and those are Horus, Curze, Ferrus and Sanguinius.

The reasoning for this is that their deaths are fundemental parts of the fluff to the point that their deaths define their "sons" even more than their lives did.

Take with a large pinch of salt of course but like all the best rumours, it sounds plausible.

Curze coming back as a Spirit Host Primarch would be cool. Perhaps his whole life he existed both in real space and warp space. Perhaps Spectral Curze was the source of his prescience and visions...

sossen wrote:

Warhammer 40,000 Intro wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Cawl is the worst offender in this regard, not only relearning old tech but also making advancements and spreading them far and wide in the Imperium. Where are the inquisitors? Why has his execution not been scheduled already? Whether Guilliman is going to protect him or not there should be internal conflict as a result of his heretical actions.

Considering how much of the 40k franchise is skewed towards Imperium armies, I think having more internal conflict is a good thing. I struggle to find fluffy reasons for my Space Marines to keep fighting Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, and other Space Marines over and over and over again. It pretty much devolves into "Because of a misunderstanding, they're fighting each other to the death."

Maybe a little more conflict in a hopeful Imperium is a good thing. Bring back more Primarchs, but because of the way the Imperium has changed, maybe a returned Lion or Russ will see the solution vastly differently? Suddenly factions like Space Wolves and Dark Angels are going it their own way and they're not afraid to fight to have it their way.

I think the plot that GW is writing is evolving, and in a year or two we're going to see a very different world.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Bringing back the Primarchs really kinda poops on that in a lot of ways. Suddenly there is hope of progress and understanding, there are people who will be missed, there is the power of technology and science and rediscovery.

Blech.



(But seriously, at least keep the definitively dead primarchs dead).

To be fair Chaos is also doubling down so it kinda evens out.

It seems like the Lion will be next out the gate, what with Cypher running around and all. As for the next daemon primarch, I suspect it will be Fulgrim since he played an active role in The Gathering Storm.

After that I bet Russ and Angron will arrive, since the Space Wolves have their own codex and Angron heralds a chaos god. Russ' last quote does put a bit of doubt in my mind, but in the 40k universe "the final battle" could last a thousand years. That said, I'm glad the story is moving forward and I hope they keep pushing it.

As for the rumors of a loyalist turning traitor and a traitor proving loyal, I really think they could pull that off by leaving uncertainties where they lie. Would Guilliman be able to completely trust the Lion? Alpharius is actually loyal! Or is he... I could even see them develope a bit of a second Imperial civil war amongst the Great Rift and rampant chaos.

Personally, I would love a 40k Corax model. But I know he's not high on the list of likelies. Corax plus a Raven Guard upgrade sprue to provide some pointy Primaris heads. That'd be cool.

I really want Fulgrim to be next, but I expect Angron to be next, with all the Armageddon murmurings. Hoping that the Lion will come very soon.

Also the whole 'loyalist turning traitor' and vice versa thing has no basis in reality; the original source had no credibility, and I do not see this happening at all.

I personally think GW is ruining the dystopian setting by bringing primarchs back. But apparently they are seeing the dollar signs, so it's gonna happen regardless. I could see Russ, Fulgrim, Lionel returning, but if they brought back Ferrus or Sanguinius for me that'd be crossing the line...and i'd be very concerned about the future of how GW is treating their setting where death has no meaning.

I do wonder whether any xenos factions will get new releases interspersed with all these primarchs and updated chaos factions. I love the primarchs and personally am fine with them heading releases for the next few years, but I would feel a bit bad for those ork players, necron players, and others.

excessivemagnetization wrote:
I do wonder whether any xenos factions will get new releases interspersed with all these primarchs and updated chaos factions. I love the primarchs and personally am fine with them heading releases for the next few years, but I would feel a bit bad for those ork players, necron players, and others.

Well I would hope that something along the lines of the following will happen:

Orks - They get their rules fixed, for a start, as they're in a terrible place right now. Ghaz is already the biggest baddest Ork, so he needs a buff to primarch status (which he should be anyway), and his current position gets filled by a standard warboss or a new named character warboss, either way. They also reintroduce Zogwort as the Ork librarian equivalent character.

Eldar - Same as Orks, Eldrad is the biggest "character" they have (that I know of), so he gets buffed to primarch status (I'm not sure what he's like right now actually, but I'm pretty sure he's not at that level).

Necron - Imotek or maybe introduce a C'tan god character to be the primarch equivalent?

Tau - Actually don't know about these guys... as I recall they evolved super-fast and pretty recently, and they're all pretty "normal", so their primarch equivalent would have to be someone in a high powered battlesuit maybe. They already have a bunch of those though.

Tyranids - Well they don't really have fluff so it's easiest for them, just give them a Hive Tyrant Queen. Then you can have a Queen vs Tau Supreme Battlesuit fight. All you'd need is a necron torn in half somewhere and you'd be good to go.



Anyway you get the idea. It wouldn't be hard to give all the races a primarch equivalent, in most cases without even needed new models, just fluff and rules changes.

Though to be honest, I'd prefer if, instead of buffing ghazzy and eldrad to primarch levels, GW instead nerfed grillman down to their level instead.

I want Vect and Cegorach... even tho im making my Yncarne a Cegorach, i still want one.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Primarchs returning in general.

Primarchs were supposed to be mythic figures shrouded in mystery, beyond history, beyond legend, beyond understanding.

The 40k narrative that has driven this universe for so long was built upon a post-apocalyptic wasteland where nobody mattered, where insanity reigned and the world was beyond order or saving. Bringing back the Primarchs flies in the face of that. It's been one of my constant issues with 30k (and the ultimately terrible pettyness of the Primarchs and their motivations in many instances), but at least that was a distinct setting widely separated from the "40k" narrative.

This is what 40k is about.

Warhammer 40,000 Intro wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. ..."

Bringing back the Primarchs really kinda poops on that in a lot of ways. Suddenly there is hope of progress and understanding, there are people who will be missed, there is the power of technology and science and rediscovery.

Blech.



(But seriously, at least keep the definitively dead primarchs dead).

^This. GW needs to tread lightly. For many, the absence of the primarchs was the reason they were drawn to the 40K setting & not 30K. They like mankind being on the ropes, surrounded, hopeless in a empire of decay. Bringing back the primarchs & creating new technology contradicts that. It gives humanity hope. 40k is also quickly turning away from a high gothic grimdark sci fi setting into a drama. There is too much emphasis already on the primarchs & their emotional turmoils. If this continues, I can definitely see the 40K community splitting & a new "legacy" community emerging prior to Abaddon's Crusade in order to fix the travesty that is the most recent lore.

Most people aren't opposed to the story progressing. Its the way its being done.

* New technology should only be introduced via the discovery of lost STC facilities.
* Fabius Bile should have been the one to create the first primaris marines. His entire lore was about him working on them for 10,000 years. They should have been the ones to attack Cadia. In desperate response, Cawl should have reintroduced the thunder warriors.
* Primarchs could return SLOWLY. 1-2 every five real life years. Everything written about them should be from commoner/guardsman perspective. Myth, lore, legend. Keep their emotional baggage in 30K. This isn't a soap opera.

next week on "As the Primarchs Return"......

I would like to think that the Primarchs returning is a sign that scheiss IS that bad.

Many did say that they'd return when it is bad enuff, well now maybe it is bad.

Maybe something like the above slow return would work

Re some of the hints in Master of Mankind - bringin back Ferrus Manus is perfectly doable - but he's not leading the iron hands:

I'm not at all opposed to the current direction of the fluff. Maybe I'm unimaginative, but I can't really see an interesting progression of the story if things don't get a little better for the imperium (assuming a human-centric point of view). The imperium was already at rock bottom before Guilliman woke up. No amount of more chaos or tyranids or whatever would really make the state of affairs any worse. By providing mankind a little hope, GW has put stakes back into the battles. There's something that can be lost now.

But I can respect what you guys are saying about losing that grim-dark appeal.

GW's plans for the primarchs will be based on profit margins, nothing more. If they can be shoe-horned/retconned into the fluff, they will be. As long as people keep buying that plastic crack, that's all they care about.

excessivemagnetization wrote:
I'm not at all opposed to the current direction of the fluff. Maybe I'm unimaginative, but I can't really see an interesting progression of the story if things don't get a little better for the imperium (assuming a human-centric point of view). The imperium was already at rock bottom before Guilliman woke up. No amount of more chaos or tyranids or whatever would really make the state of affairs any worse. By providing mankind a little hope, GW has put stakes back into the battles. There's something that can be lost now.

But I can respect what you guys are saying about losing that grim-dark appeal.

This ^. The Imperium is already crumbling, I don't know what more they could have done without bringing the Primarchs back. If they did the whole new warp rift opening without Guilliman it would just be more of the same. Just like a new hive fleet turning up or a new massive Ork Waaggh, at this point it's basically a "Oh look another one, isn't that cute." from me. By allowing the Primachs to return they can improve things a little bit in some places and shift the story a little bit to make people actually care again. Sure Guilliman has sorted out the inner portion of the Imperium now but the parts isolated by the warp rift are unknown and in bad shape but could possibly be helped by the Imperium that isn't a wreck thanks to Lord Smurf himself. It creates an interesting story rather than the same copy and paste with replacing the name of the alien species attacking that we have had for the past 20 odd years.

I get that people like the Grim Dark, I do also, I grew up on it, it's comfortable, I understand that but I want new plot, new stories, new adventures. I don't want to be reading about fighting off Hive Fleet "We ran out of names" attacking the exact same Imperium 10 years from now.

This is 8th edition! When this edition ends, so does the universe. So all the Primarchs are waking up for judgement day. Then Horus shall return riding his three-headed daemon mount as the herald of the apocalypse and the Emperor will wake up to save the universe one last time with McGuffin no Jutsu.

I think it would be cool if when all the loyalist primarchs return that there would be some kind of internal conflict among the imperium and when they are vulnerable a new massive fleet of tyranids attack. Or the primaris guys turn out to be chaos spies or something like that.

excessivemagnetization wrote:
I'm not at all opposed to the current direction of the fluff. Maybe I'm unimaginative, but I can't really see an interesting progression of the story if things don't get a little better for the imperium (assuming a human-centric point of view). The imperium was already at rock bottom before Guilliman woke up. No amount of more chaos or tyranids or whatever would really make the state of affairs any worse. By providing mankind a little hope, GW has put stakes back into the battles. There's something that can be lost now.

But I can respect what you guys are saying about losing that grim-dark appeal.

The Imperium had massive amounts of land, and would have been easy to shift the narrative a bit if GW wanted to. They just failed and left it until it was at its worst state.

The people at the head of design have no real sense of the setting they have. You can do a lot when you have an entire galaxy to explore, in a way they chose the least interesting way to progress.
Honestly there was so much that could have been done before if they had just put some effort into it. A little thought over the years would have been better than this half assed return Narrative we have now.

 vonjankmon wrote:

excessivemagnetization wrote:
I'm not at all opposed to the current direction of the fluff. Maybe I'm unimaginative, but I can't really see an interesting progression of the story if things don't get a little better for the imperium (assuming a human-centric point of view). The imperium was already at rock bottom before Guilliman woke up. No amount of more chaos or tyranids or whatever would really make the state of affairs any worse. By providing mankind a little hope, GW has put stakes back into the battles. There's something that can be lost now.

But I can respect what you guys are saying about losing that grim-dark appeal.

This ^. The Imperium is already crumbling, I don't know what more they could have done without bringing the Primarchs back. If they did the whole new warp rift opening without Guilliman . . .

The galaxy would have changed more than it has for 10 millenia, and the Imperium would/could have been shocked into change. They could have rebooted the Guard with better equipment. They could have tossed the 1000ish limit on Space Marine chapters. They could have used the heretical affinity of faction of the Mechanicus with Necron technology to enact a plan to freeze the Warp rifts back out of reality. They could have actively sought an alliance with Eldar to attempt to out-maneuver Chaos using the webway.

But instead they brought back a primarch and made bigger marines instead. Bigger marines is good for sales, I get it, but they didn't have to bring back Guilliman.

Btw, totally fine with the Daemon Primarchs. They're immortal and it's thematic that the villains who sold their souls are still alive while their heroic counterparts are dead and gone.

Well they did actually implement one of your suggestions, the 10K Primaris marines running around for a while sort of counts as tossing the 1000ish limit on Space Marine chapters.

And besides I don't really think the 1000 limit is a big deal, there are already several chapters that outright ignore it (Black Templars) or that functionally ignore it (Dark Angels and their successors) that bring the legions back really won't change anything.

But regardless there are tons of different directions they could have gone with the story, not everyone will like the one they pick but I don't think the current direction is terrible.

 vonjankmon wrote:

And besides I don't really think the 1000 limit is a big deal, there are already several chapters that outright ignore it (Black Templars) or that functionally ignore it (Dark Angels and their successors) that bring the legions back really won't change anything.

The Black Templar do it by being split up and the Dark Angels are technically separate and still distrusted by other Imperial authorities.

Guilliman comes back to life and quickly sets about reversing his prior decisions. He becomes the sole leader of the Imperium instead of having the High Lords do it, he gets to command the Custodes because he's that awesome, he revising the previous restrictions he'd placed on the Adeptus Astartes so that he can attain more military power (why not just increase the number of Chapters?), he's turning Ultramar back into it's little empire, he's putting Primaris as the head of worlds. The amount of alarm bells ringing must be deafening the Inquisition and yet we're seeing nothing about it. The guys actions are completely counter to the ones shortly before his stasis-entombment and he was revived with the help of xenos but everybody just bows to him. Unless the Emperor has been telling everybody that Guilliman's totally legit it doesn't make sense in setting. So yeah, breaking the limits is a big deal because of the way they've done it.

I can only hope that when the next Loyalist Primarch comes they actually have some conflict because otherwise rightfully suspicious and paranoid structure of the Imperium is just doing an inexplicable 180.

I can totally see the Lion being the next loyalist Primarch as he provides the counter point to Roboute's reboot of the Imperium. With their home worlds on opposite sides of a rift, and the two brothers on opposite sides of a rift from the end of the HH (the Imperium Secundus storyline) they are nicely setup for a second stab at the feud with a repeat of Roboute's new Imperium Secundus.

I think there will definitely be conflict between Guilliman and Russ/Jonson/whoever comes next and I can't wait. The Lion and the Inquisition being suspicious of Guilliman while the Inquisition continues to be suspicious of the DA? Lots of potential for infighting and interesting narrative.

I just want my drunken space viking primarch, but without the Wulfen crap they keep drowing the chapter in.

^Amen

Many great narrative suggestions have been brought up, nearly all of which could take place in an upcoming installment. Discord among primarchs and the inquisition? I think it likely. An alliance with the Eldar? Well, yeah, sorta. I'd say resurecting Guilliman created a shaky one. Incorporating necron tech into mechanicum designs? Cawl's pretty much got free reign to do whatever he wants right now. I don't think reintroducing primarchs put many limitations on the 40k universe. Nor do I think it shrunk the scale of it. I will concede that they're presence lessens their mystique, as someone (sorry, I forgot who) mentioned. But I would argue that even that does not make the primarchs any less mythical. They are demigods among men, and they still feel so to me. It is for that reason that their reappearance has me so excited. But of course, you are welcome to disagree.

excessivemagnetization wrote:
Many great narrative suggestions have been brought up, nearly all of which could take place in an upcoming installment. Discord among primarchs and the inquisition? I think it likely. An alliance with the Eldar? Well, yeah, sorta. I'd say resurecting Guilliman created a shaky one. Incorporating necron tech into mechanicum designs? Cawl's pretty much got free reign to do whatever he wants right now. I don't think reintroducing primarchs put many limitations on the 40k universe. Nor do I think it shrunk the scale of it. I will concede that they're presence lessens their mystique, as someone (sorry, I forgot who) mentioned. But I would argue that even that does not make the primarchs any less mythical. They are demigods among men, and they still feel so to me. It is for that reason that their reappearance has me so excited. But of course, you are welcome to disagree.

Right now its the demigods among men that is getting so pathetic, they are small in the grand theme of things. Mythical does not mean powerful, and ramping them up again and again is doing a disservice to the setting as a whole.
They can be central without the power ramping up and putting them at the center of every story, Its just bad design from the people at the top filtering though. With no way to really change things now they have broken there glass.

We need new characters, and new narrative to push forward. Something GW has been really bad at now.

There are some characters such as Ragnar Blackmane that I would love to see grow into something more. I'm more a fan of the humble beginnings characters that evolve into something much more.

excessivemagnetization wrote:
I will concede that they're presence lessens their mystique

To be fair, the HH novels have done a pretty good job of that already. We have a good grasp of their powers and capabilities along with their (numerous) character flaws and assorted daddy-issues.

I have been playing since Rogue Trader days and I willingly admit I was surprised to see them finally hit the table-top but I have seen the fluff grow and change so many times over the years that I have learned to just enjoy the setting rather than get bogged down in details.

For loyalist, I see them coming back in this order:

Russ - he has to come back to be a counter point to Magnus.

Corax - he's a believer in guilliman and fills the jump pack primarch role.

Vulcan - because he just can't die. Ever. Oh and he fills the non white race role.

For me, the next Primarch should be The Lion; mainly because it will finally tie up the Cypher storyline (I want to know what that sword is!), plus it lines up with the remaining SM codexes.

Russ would also be released at some point, mainly because a) Magnus is back and b) GW do love the Wolves.

The other Primarchs are kind of meh though to be honest. Corax, Vulcan, Khan are just... ehhh. Its not like those chapters have unique units either, so unless we see Codex:SM Legions, I don't think we'll see any of them. Russ and The Lion make sense since both have a standalone Codex, and the BA may get a Sanguinor at some point with Primarch power levels (Not even GW will bring back Sanguinius, at least I hope)

The Traitor primarchs are all but confirmed at this point though right? Death Guard and Thousand Sons have their own codexes, so I would expect Emperors Children and World Eaters to receive the same treatment, and then Abaddon gets the Celestine treatment and gets some kind of uber model.


Meanwhile, 'Nids, Orks, Necrons and Tau are just left twiddling their thumbs while GW continue this IoM V Chaos drama unfolding. Because the more GW push the story, the more the story revolves around the Space Marine singularity.

 Izural wrote:
Meanwhile, 'Nids, Orks, Necrons and Tau are just left twiddling their thumbs while GW continue this IoM V Chaos drama unfolding. Because the more GW push the story, the more the story revolves around the Space Marine singularity.

I think this is my biggest issue with the direction the lore is heading. 40K is becoming 30K. If I wanted to play 30K, I would have bought 30K. I chose 40K because of the grimdark, hopeless, empire of decay, superstition narrative filled with xenos. That is being eroded with the introduction of all this new technology, primarchs & hope. You can be certain that every single warzone going forward there will be a primarch present & instead of focusing on the conflict, logistics, & the heroic deeds of lesser men it will be all about the emotional turmoils of the primarchs. Once enough primarchs are introduced characters like Dante, Yarrick, Calgar, Cypher, Kharn, Creed, Helbrecht, Ghazzy etc will just be footnotes. They will get 1-2 nods in a warzone & the rest of the writing will be spent on how amazing the primarchs are. I'm more interested in what the xenos are up to. How has the warpscar impacted them. What are the tyranids running away from? Why has the inquisition & the high lords of terra permitted Roboute Guilliman to seize power unmolested?

These things interest me. What Magnus or Guilliman ate for breakfast does not.

For those that dont like Primarchs, dont forget this is also a Hobby and GW honestly dont really have a good range of Large fun looking models in 40k (AoS does) any players just want them for the looks and not necessary for the rules or game play, albeit good rules will make players feel like it was a better investment.

Also some players are more fluff driven and would LOVE to have the iconic character on the table.

The game isnt just about math and tactics there is more to it for many players.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also some players are more fluff driven and would LOVE to have the iconic character on the table.

I find the primarchs in 40k repulsive for fluff reasons.
The fact that so far we have
- Magnus of the 1k sons: the Action Figure (TM)
- Roboute Guilliman, that is just sad compared to the 30k mini
- Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, enemy of life, reason, restraint in miniature design and focal points
Is just the icing of the cake. An icing made of crap.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also some players are more fluff driven and would LOVE to have the iconic character on the table.

I find the primarchs in 40k repulsive for fluff reasons.
The fact that so far we have
- Magnus of the 1k sons: the Action Figure (TM)
- Roboute Guilliman, that is just sad compared to the 30k mini
- Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, enemy of life, reason, restraint in miniature design and focal points
Is just the icing of the cake. An icing made of crap.

Thats you, you are not everyone, i know many that like them. I dont really care for DG but i love Mortarion model.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also some players are more fluff driven and would LOVE to have the iconic character on the table.

I find the primarchs in 40k repulsive for fluff reasons.
The fact that so far we have
- Magnus of the 1k sons: the Action Figure (TM)
- Roboute Guilliman, that is just sad compared to the 30k mini
- Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, enemy of life, reason, restraint in miniature design and focal points
Is just the icing of the cake. An icing made of crap.

Thats you, you are not everyone, i know many that like them. I dont really care for DG but i love Mortarion model.

Fair enough but the "appeal to fluff" is very subjective (as much as my opinion, that is). For many, the presence of the primarchs in 40k is a disaster for the fluff because it destroys the aura of legend that such heroes and villains have, and shifts the focus of the setting, transforming it in something more "warmachine-like".
The latter has even an effect on the tabletop, because such beings are very common while in older editions you had a minimum point limit for important characters.

To me and others, the appeal of 40k was mostly in its "war sandbox" nature. It depicts a galaxy full of innumerable conflicts on millions of worlds. As this is a hobby game, involving the building and painting of your miniatures, this means there is always a place for "your dudes." The narrative, implied or explicit, was about their battle in some corner of the galaxy. The stories can be heroic, grim, or even farcical--there's room for all of them.

The primarch wankfest changes that. Now it's a continuation of the Horus Heresy, a pro-wrestling feud between superhuman manbabies. And the fluff and rules ensure this. Now Guilliman appears in person to fight almost every skirmish of the Imperium. The entire force is built around him, and the opposing force must be built to counter him. Every "reborn" or "rediscovered" primarch level character takes the game futher away from a setting about soldiers and battles, and makes it Wrestlemania with flaming swords.

Hankovitch wrote:
To me and others, the appeal of 40k was mostly in its "war sandbox" nature. It depicts a galaxy full of innumerable conflicts on millions of worlds. As this is a hobby game, involving the building and painting of your miniatures, this means there is always a place for "your dudes." The narrative, implied or explicit, was about their battle in some corner of the galaxy. The stories can be heroic, grim, or even farcical--there's room for all of them.

The primarch wankfest changes that. Now it's a continuation of the Horus Heresy, a pro-wrestling feud between superhuman manbabies. And the fluff and rules ensure this. Now Guilliman appears in person to fight almost every skirmish of the Imperium. The entire force is built around him, and the opposing force must be built to counter him. Every "reborn" or "rediscovered" primarch level character takes the game futher away from a setting about soldiers and battles, and makes it Wrestlemania with flaming swords.

Well the primarchs and named characters are fine when you are playing specific fluff missions but even before it makes no sense for creeeeeeeed to be fighting say aun'shi as they would never be near each other.

as to list building spank fests.. eh. its par for the course for the people that are into it.

 Desubot wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
To me and others, the appeal of 40k was mostly in its "war sandbox" nature. It depicts a galaxy full of innumerable conflicts on millions of worlds. As this is a hobby game, involving the building and painting of your miniatures, this means there is always a place for "your dudes." The narrative, implied or explicit, was about their battle in some corner of the galaxy. The stories can be heroic, grim, or even farcical--there's room for all of them.

The primarch wankfest changes that. Now it's a continuation of the Horus Heresy, a pro-wrestling feud between superhuman manbabies. And the fluff and rules ensure this. Now Guilliman appears in person to fight almost every skirmish of the Imperium. The entire force is built around him, and the opposing force must be built to counter him. Every "reborn" or "rediscovered" primarch level character takes the game futher away from a setting about soldiers and battles, and makes it Wrestlemania with flaming swords.

Well the primarchs and named characters are fine when you are playing specific fluff missions but even before it makes no sense for creeeeeeeed to be fighting say aun'shi as they would never be near each other.

as to list building spank fests.. eh. its par for the course for the people that are into it.

The difference is that you can use creed for a talented general or calgar for a strong chapter master of a Ultramarine successor chapter.
Magnus or Mortarion are so above and distinctive both in models and rules that you will never find them in "count as" models.
This brings to a certain sameness.
Im kind of appreciate that now you have 1 free relic (possibly more) and choose your own warlord trait.. this helps a bit the "nobodies". .. aka "your dudes".