So at this point, most Ork players have dug their teef into the meat of our index and figured out most of the workings and gubbinz that makes our army tick. One of the great things is the rise of the boyz as the bread and butter of our army. Unfortunately, it also means some of the glaring issues for some of our other units are clearly shown, like Meganobz and Burna Boyz.

So what would your ideal fixes be?

For me personally?

New Army-Wide rule:

Dakka Dakka Dakka!: Ork firepower is known less for its accuracy and more for the sheer amount of ammunition that is expended upon the foe, making it so even evasive manoeuvres and force field technology or armour are overwhelmed in the onslaught. All Ork units ignore any enemy caused ballistic skill modifiers that are applied in the shooting phase.

Weapon Price Changes (this list is non-comprehensive, these are the one that came to mind for me):

PK - 12 points
Killsaw - 15 points
Big Choppa - 5 points
Kustom Shoota - 2 points
Rokkit Launchas - 8 points
Big Shoota - 4 points
Skorcha - 10 points
Pair of Rokkit pistols - 8 points
Rack of Rokkits/Kopta Rokkits - 12 points
Supa Shoota - 5 points
Dred Klaw/Each subsequent Dred Klaw - 20/10 points
Skorcha Missile - 10 points
Kombi-Skorcha - 10 points
Kombi- Rokkit - 10 points

Change cybork bodies to being a 5+ invulnerable save. Make it available as 5 points per model for units and 10 points for characters. Warbosses, Nob with WAAAGH! Banner, Big Meks, Mekboyz, Painboyz and Weirdboyz have access to it. For non character units, Flash Gitz, Nobz and Meganobz have access to it.

Psychic Powers:

Change 'Eadbanger to having you roll off with the strength of the weirdboy +D6 versus the chosen opposing model's strength +d6. If the Weirdboy wins, the chosen opposing model suffers D6 mortal wounds. Double the range to 18".

HQ's:

Painboyz - No longer have to take the Power Klaw as a mandatory weapon.

Big Mek - Add the rule "Dakkaboss", all friendly Ork units with 6" of him can re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase. Makes it so he can actually hit with his SAG and give him more utility to make actually shooty Ork lists. Shokk Attack Gun is now 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

Kaptin Badrukk - Change it so he makes Flash Gitz re-roll failed wound rolls of 1 instead. Make it so that this ability applies to himself and units inside with him even while occupying a transport.


Troops:

Boyz are good as is. Give the option for 'eavy armour back for 2 ppm. Also, just change the PL down to 4 for the starting number of 10 and then up by 3 for another 10 and another 3 for the last 10 Orks.

Gretchin should be 2 ppm.

Elites:

Meganobz - The price cut should help with their cost issues. They do, however, have issues with competing against normal Nobz in finding a niche that isn't already filled. Maybe make them big game hunters similar to Ironjaw Brutes? Give them +1 to hit in CC versus models with 3 wounds and higher?

Tankbustas - The new cost for rokkits make them 14 ppm, which is much more reasonable. Give them the option to also take 'eavy armour for 2 ppm.

Burna Boyz - Drop them down to 12 ppm and change their burna to D6 hits rather than D3.

Nob Bikerz - Drop them down to 30 ppm. If they get the exhaust cloud rule back which causes enemy shots to have a -1 to hit modifier against them in shooting make them 34 ppm.

Kommandos - Let them swap their choppas/sluggas for shootas for free

Dedicated Transports:

Trukk - Down to 55 points a pop

Fast Attack:

Lower Blitza Bomber, Burna Bomber and Wazbomb Blastajet costs each by 20 points.

Lower Deffkopta cost down to 40.

Warbikers need to be recosted to 20 points a bike, or have their exhaust cloud rule back which makes enemies have a -1 to hit modifier against them and cost 24 points a bike.

Warbuggies down to 35 points. Skorchas to 40.

Heavy Support:

Killa Kanz - Give them Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers rule instead, for when they have 3 or more members. Reduce base cost to 45 points. Change Grotzookas to be Assault 2D3.

Deff Dred - Make them movement 8" base. They can also advance and charge. If you give them all dred claws, they add +3" to their advance rolls.

Gorkanaut - Deffstorm Mega Shoota is 6D6 shots instead. Big and Stompy gives it a +1 to hit modifier when in close combat.

Morkanaut - Gets Big and Shooty special rule which gives it a +1 to hit modifier with its to hit rolls in the shooting phase in addition to ignoring the penalty modifier for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Battlewagon - Reduce price point down to 140. Make it so mobile fortress allows the passengers to ignore negative modifiers for moving and shooting heavy weapons. 'Ard case also changes its save to a 3+ in addition to making it T8.

Flash Gitz - Gain a 4+ armour base and reduce its price point down to 23 points a model.

Lootas - Price point down to 14 points a model, give option to upgrade to 'eavy armour for 3 ppm.

Mek Gunz - KMK weapon price down to 20, Bubble Chukka down to 25 points, Traktor Kannon should give a +1 to hit against targets with the FLY keyword and gain D3 shots instead of 1, the Smasha Gun also does D3 shots.

Big Gunz - Mainly price drops for weapons, 10 points for Kannon, 12 points for Zzap Gun, 10 for Lobba

Lords of War:

Stompa - Needs a huuuuge price cut. Down to 700 points area. Make the Supa-Gatler 3D6 shots and have it deal 2 damage for each shot. Change the Deffkannon to be 2D6 shots base, with it increasing to 3D6 shots against units that are 10 or more in size. Make the slash option of the Mega Choppa to deal 3 flat damage instead of D3. Remove the limit of only firing 1 supa-rokkit a turn.

Those are the first thoughts I have in mind, what about yours?

Seems a bit too much, altogether.

I understand wanting orks better-but this takes them from decent to OP.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Seems a bit too much, altogether.

I understand wanting orks better-but this takes them from decent to OP.

Hm, I can definitely see why this comes off as wishlisting (we'll be lucky if we get even a quarter of these suggestions through), but is there any area in particular that seems too much? I'm still a little unsure about the Dakka Dakka Dakka! armywide rule, given that it makes our assault weapons pretty crazy. But at the same time, Orks really get gimped by negative modifiers to shooting, since even one -1 to hit modifier cuts our effective shooting by 50%.

A lot of the problem areas I've covered are the units you really never see outside of casual games: meganobz, deffkoptas, burna boyz, most of our walkers. Right now, competitively speaking, its mainly boyz, stormboyz and kommandos that are competitive. Necrons are one of the few armies that don't handle Ork armour well given their own weakness against vehicles. Generally speaking a LOT of our stuff is overpriced right now which is why you see so many price cuts across the board. Even Mob Rule basically only matters for boyz right now.

I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

Right. But you have to understand that at the same time, even with the rule, we're only hitting on 5's the vast majority of the time. There's very few units outside of grots (who are known for better aim) who can hit better than that, other than Flash Gitz who are known for spending inordinate amounts of time shooting and spending on shooty bitz. Unless you want to double all of our shooting output to compensate. All Dakka Dakka Dakka does is make it so our shooting largely stays at hitting on 5's now that negative modifiers for shooting are becoming more commonplace. Just as I mentioned to JNAproductions, even just one -1 modifier makes it so our guys lose 50% of shooting efficiency. Any more and our Ork units can't actually hit you.

Keep in mind that we have to pay for gitfindas (and even then only for certain units) and at best it makes us hit on 4's. We still rely on mass firepower to produce results. We have no aura re-roll buff unlike marines. It's not as bad as it looks.

I have changed Dakka Dakka Dakka! however to specify only against enemy modifiers against shooting.

 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

The problem is not that we are bad at shooting, it is that our point costs should reflect that. Like it or not, our total output for the same gun is half that of a marine. The point cost should be just over half for these units.

Dakka Dakka Dakka would offset the game mechanic where a unit is "-1 to hit." These units penalize a BS5+ army far harder than any other (our shooting output is cut in half.) Because "-1 to hit" is doled out like candy we need something to compensate.

Or, reduce the point costs assuming BS 5-1/2 + for all units, so instead of half a marine's cost it needs to be 3/8th.

Here's a pretty problematic thing:
Lootas are currently one of our better units with shooting. Not great, but not bad. Point-for-point, they put out similar damage output to Havocs with Assault cannons. The problem with them is that they're fragile, and that they are hit harder by penalties to their BS. but... Well...
They currently cost 17ppm. With your changes, that same 17ppm gets me a Loota with a Gitfinda.
Then I take a Big Mek, who's got a SAG and a Gitfinda for giggles.

Now, those Lootas are hitting on 3s with no penalties regardless of what I'm shooting at. You've just doubled their firepower and quadrupled it against fliers and anything else with a -1 to hit.

This also applies to Tankbustas, who go from being 'Our best shooting unit' to 'Easily outshooting most actual shooty armies', with S8 AP-2 D3 shots that hit 8/9ths of the time against any target.


In fact, the Big Mek buff alone is *ridiculously* powerful, especially with the massive point cost cuts you're throwing around like candy. Currently, at 27ppm, we're getting 2 Dakkagun hits per Warbike, or 13.5 points per hit.
With your changes, we'd be getting 3 Dakkagun hits per Warbike, and a much cheaper warbike, making it 5.3 points per hit - Less than half the cost per hit. (And we already are buying the Big Mek so we can bring a Kustom Force Field, so it's not like that buff is costing anything extra.)

Similarly, the Stompa getting a massive increase in Firepower, a massive increase in Accuracy, AND a 20% point cut all at the same time is far too good.



Basically, you're taking a codex that is underwhelming, and doubling the effectiveness of most of its shooty units. Orks shouldn't be the best army in the game at gunlines, but your 'fixes' would give us all Space Marine levels of accuracy for extremely low points costs.

The giftinda that adds +1 to the BS is too much. IMHO it could be nice if it acts like a buffing aura, like giving the re-roll of missed hits of 1s to friendly orks units within 6'' or 9'', something like that. That +1 BS is too powerful.

Thanks for all the feedback so far! In hindsight, I forgot how potentially broken the Big Mek + Gitfinda buffed units could be,
so the gitfindas are removed as option now. Personally, I felt that 3" range would somewhat limit his utility for shooting buffs, since that means you have to really bunch up, but I guess he's cheap enough to spam so it's too exploitable.

Also changed the Dakkaboss rule to re-rolling failed to hit rolls of 1. Personally, I felt that the +1BS buff he gave initially was something different and more meaningful than the generic re-roll one's aura that everyone gets, but I guess it's too stark a buff without a significant points upgrade.

I've take out the +1 to hit modifiers for the Stompa and at 700 points. Everything else I've left the same because otherwise it really isn't worth taking over two gorkanauts/morkanauts. Multiple Imperial Knights have far more survivability without outside investment and reliable similar damage output. So it costing around a little less than double of them seems about right.

Why can't a warboss in mega armor have an attack squig?

 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!

 lolman1c wrote:

 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!

It's because they assume since we have 5+ to hit that we automatically should do terribly in shooting, despite the fact that Orks are known for being excessive with dakka. It's not so much that Orks are bad at shooting, it's that many don't care at how well they do and Ork weaponry is crude, not ineffective. Orks really get the short end of the stick now that twin-linked is just double the amount of shots since now many armies besides Orks have sources of re-roll to hit auras and having more shots makes it better for other armies in putting out the hurt while Orks actually do worse due to all the negative modifiers flying around (just look at the recent books being released, all the factions have a trait/dogma where you have a -1 to hit penalty in shooting.

he lore doesn't support it!

I'm not so sure about that, to quote the entry for Shoota Boys from the 3rd ed codex...
"Each Ork will try to outdo his neighbour by letting fly with the most ammo or the loudest gun, Hitting the target is less of an objective than terrorising the enemy!"

That said, just beacuse shooting isn't an Ork strength doesn't mean it should be absolutely useless. The -1BS modifier for flying machines is massively painful to an Ork army and I quite like the proposed 'Dakka, Dakka, Dakka' rule as an elegant and flavourful way of mitigating this problem.

 Kroem wrote:

he lore doesn't support it!

I'm not so sure about that, to quote the entry for Shoota Boys from the 3rd ed codex...
"Each Ork will try to outdo his neighbour by letting fly with the most ammo or the loudest gun, Hitting the target is less of an objective than terrorising the enemy!"

That said, just beacuse shooting isn't an Ork strength doesn't mean it should be absolutely useless. The -1BS modifier for flying machines is massively painful to an Ork army and I quite like the proposed 'Dakka, Dakka, Dakka' rule as an elegant and flavourful way of mitigating this problem.

Honestly that lore supports my claim! They love to shoot! It doesn't matter if the thing is fast, cloaked or flying! They just shoot lots and lots at it! They love shooting! So the rule that it wouldn't effect them is pretty accurate as they would have the same chance as hitting it as they did before!

 Grimskul wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.

Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!

It's because they assume since we have 5+ to hit that we automatically should do terribly in shooting, despite the fact that Orks are known for being excessive with dakka. It's not so much that Orks are bad at shooting, it's that many don't care at how well they do and Ork weaponry is crude, not ineffective. Orks really get the short end of the stick now that twin-linked is just double the amount of shots since now many armies besides Orks have sources of re-roll to hit auras and having more shots makes it better for other armies in putting out the hurt while Orks actually do worse due to all the negative modifiers flying around (just look at the recent books being released, all the factions have a trait/dogma where you have a -1 to hit penalty in shooting.

It's not so much that others think orks should be bad at shooting, it's that they think we should be bad at shooting but costed as if we were good. Which is what we are now. A rack of rockets (assault 2) for 28 points? At BS5+? Seriously??

I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.

This thread inspired me to come up with some Ork Stratagems I'd like to see:

General Stratagems

1-3 CP - 'Ardboyz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as 'Ardboyz. They receive +1 Toughness and +1 Armor Save, but must subtract 3 from Advance and Charge rolls to a minimum of 1. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

(Meant for running Boyz with a Trukk/Battlewagon)

2 CP - Rammin' Speed: in the charge phase, you can declare that a vehicle will attempt a ram when charging against another vehicle. If the charge is successful, both players roll a D6 and add their vehicle's toughness. The player with the higher result takes D3 mortal wounds, while the player with the lower result takes D6 mortal wounds.

2 CP - Get Outta My Way!: in the movement phase, you can issue a retreat to a vehicle currently locked in combat with infantry, allowing the vehicle to move through the enemy infantry models, as long as the vehicle ends its move further than 1" away. The infantry unit then takes D3 mortal wounds.

(Allows for breakouts for surrounded vehicles)

3 CP - It's Ours Now!: In the fight phase, you can declare that Ork infantry unit can attempt to board an enemy vehicle to claim it as their own, rather than attacking. Pick an enemy vehicle; for every Ork infantry model in melee range of that vehicle, roll a D6. If the number resulting rolls of 5+ is greater than the number of wounds remaining in the vehicle, the Orks storm the driver's seat and take control. You now have control of that vehicle with those remaining wounds for the rest of the battle or until the vehicle is destroyed. Meks and Big Meks add +1 to their rolls.

Bad Moonz Stratagems

1-3 CP - Rich Gitz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as Rich Gitz. They replace any Shootas in the squad with Kustom Shootas. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

1 CP - Sphesul Ammo: In the shooting phase, you can declare a unit will use their custom armor piercing ammunition. Add -1 AP to the unit's ranged weapons until the end of the phase.


Blood Axe Stratagems

1-3 CP - Sneaky Gitz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as Sneaky Gitz. Rather than deploy normally, they can placed on the battlefield at the end of any of your movement phases more than 11" away from enemy units.. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

2 CP - Booby Trap: At the start of one of your opponent's movement phases, you can declare that an enterprising Ork sapper has laid a cunning trap before the battle. For the rest of the game, roll a D6 for every time an enemy unit advances or charges. on a 6, the enemy unit has triggered the booby trap, and takes D3 mortal wounds. If the unit consists of 10 or more models, it takes D6 instead. The booby trap can only be triggered once.

It would b nice nice to get some new units that were the equivilant of some of the space marine stuff. The Stormraven is basically a flying tank that can transport more than the transports. Can you imagine what the orks could do with a flying Battlewagon that could transport a Deff Dred and move 20-40"?

It would be nice if the Lootas removed the 1d3 for the whole squad so that you got a more even average of the number of shots.

What if Flash Gitz had Rapid fire guns instead of heavy, and removed the weird shoot again on 6's. That would also allow them to move into range without penalty, and if they were really close (too close) to the enemy they get more shots to land, kind of a shotgun scatter effect.

Dannohawk wrote:
I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.

Dude, our Stomboyz don't have deep strike! Basically the only jet pack unit in the game not to....

 lolman1c wrote:

Dannohawk wrote:
I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.

Dude, our Stomboyz don't have deep strike! Basically the only jet pack unit in the game not to....

Ha! Thanks man. Well for only 8 points a boy it's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. They'd be probably be OP otherwise. I've only just brought mine so I haven't tested them out on the field yet, I'll be using da jump instead then.

 Grimskul wrote:


PK - 12 points
Killsaw - 15 points
Big Choppa - 5 points
Kustom Shoota - 2 points
Rokkit Launchas - 8 points
Big Shoota - 4 points
Skorcha - 10 points
Pair of Rokkit pistols - 8 points
Rack of Rokkits/Kopta Rokkits - 12 points
Supa Shoota - 5 points
Dred Klaw/Each subsequent Dred Klaw - 20/10 points
Skorcha Missile - 10 points
Kombi-Skorcha - 10 points
Kombi- Rokkit - 10 points

I think 12 point klaws are optimistic. A fair point cost for str 10 klaws would be 14, because IG str 6 fists are 10, and marine str 8 fists are 12.

Ogryn brute mauls are literally identical to big choppas, but are 7 points. That's pretty reasonable.

As much as I'd like to see skorchas get cheaper, it's not going to happen. If marine heavy flamers are still 17 (and they are), you know ork ones aren't getting any cheaper. Similarly, I doubt rokkits are getting much cheaper.

At the VERY least, I'd like to see us not have to pay more than double for our twin weapons (while marines pay sometimes FAR less than double for theirs).

Overall, the biggest standouts to me in the ork codex are:

Deff dreads are about the same price as imperial dreads, but have objectively worse shooting and melee (str 5 v str 6). Need a bit of a points cut. (example: a marine dread with assault cannon costs 133 points, has 6x str 6 ap1 shots that generally hit on 4s, 4x str 12 D3 attacks. A deff dread with 2x big shootas costs 131 points, has 6x str 5 AP0 shots that hit on 5s, and 4x str 10 D3 attacks).

Orkanauts are decent-ish, but their shooting is embarrassingly bad. Probably need double the shots they have now to be ok.

Close combat invulnerable saves, but that's never coming back, so hardly worth mentioning.

Flash gitz need either better armor or better range. I wouldn't mind seeing more shots to boot. Obliterators got double shots for free, what if snazzguns became rapid fire 2 (or 3)?

Stompas are dumpster fires. Even at 700 points, I'm not sure they'd be worth it. Maybe if, like orkanauts, they got double their current shooting.

Our open-topped vehicles need to benefit assault somehow. Currently, they are no better than a rhino in that regard (despite being same cost, worse T and save), which makes them basically not worth taking, ever, except maybe for dedicated shooting units. Getting to move before disembarking would be HUUUUGLY OP, but still, they could use something.

Oh yeah, and ramshackle for all ork vehicles would seem fair to me (looking at YOU, quantum shielding).

Mega/nobz are honestly pretty decent imo, ridiculously overpriced melee weapons notwithstanding.

Like you mentioned with dakkaboss, I'd kind of like to see something that helps our shooting, even if it's not really my thing. A rule, or aura, or character, or something. But while some armies who will remain nameless get an entire army of rerolling all hits and wounds at ranged AND melee, all we've got is baddruk, who only lets flash gitz reroll 1s. On that topic, I wouldn't mind some kind of melee reroll, but we do have banners, which are pretty solid.

In all honesty, though, I'm pretty sure the only thing I'm almost certain of is that they'll nerf KMKs from D6 shots to D3.

Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!

It's good, effective, cheap, and better than marine plasma cannons. Therefore, it must be nerfed!

I'm honestly waiting for them to make power klaws MORE expensive, just so I can get suuuuuuuuuuuuper pissed off about it. Can't wait!

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!

It's good, effective, cheap, and better than marine plasma cannons. Therefore, it must be nerfed!

I'm honestly waiting for them to make power klaws MORE expensive, just so I can get suuuuuuuuuuuuper pissed off about it. Can't wait!

yeah but over the course of a game I've never not landed at least 4 mortal wounds on myself. Especially if you get lucky and roll high for the number of shots. 4/18 wounds, that's pretty bad. i've had some games where I do a little more but thats over 1/5th his wounds caused by himself. never really used it on mek gunz yet though

Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.

 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.

Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.

Breng77 wrote:

 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.

Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.

Yeah, moving ~12", disembarking 3", and getting normal move, and then potentially an advance and charge, is legitimately broken.

I mean, if they just added boarding planks back to give 2 or 3" to charge ranges after disembarking, that would probably be fine.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.

Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.

Yeah, moving ~12", disembarking 3", and getting normal move, and then potentially an advance and charge, is legitimately broken.

I mean, if they just added boarding planks back to give 2 or 3" to charge ranges after disembarking, that would probably be fine.

I think assault vehicles should have the option to disembark the crew after their movement. Moving ~12", disembarking 3" and get the chance to assault sounds legitimate. Of course the crew couldn't move if they've been carried by the vehicle in the same turn. But I wish we could move the transport, disembark the unit inside, shoot, and then assault, essentially the 7th edition mechanic.

You can see why they changed it, in 7th every unit took a transport!

I think it would be cool if Orks had a transport that worked like the little gateways in AoS i.e. you move into it and out the other side.

You could call it a Nydus Squig or something and then you would really get boys popping up in funny places!

Dannohawk wrote:

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.

I'd love some gretchin snipers, a low-points elite shooting choice sounds great, bit like ratlings.

What i'd suggest is maybe have them shoot with with...
Grot Scope-Blasta: Heavy 18" 3S -1AP 1D
And then give them a special model like...
Grunt-Spotta: D6 models within unit can hit on 3+ against any enemy-unit within the visible to the unit, regardless of proximity (i.e. characters).

And for lols allow up to 2 stray-squigs in a unit of Gretchin that deal D3 attacks, but on a 1 it deals a wound to its own unit, the models exist in fantasy and it'd be great to import them in some regard.

Something like, but not quite, the dakkadakkadakka rule for shootas would be good, maybe if 20+ models are shooting the same unit they get a "lead-rain" ability that gives it some kind of boost, +1 against units out of cover, no idea just spitballing.

Similarly maybe something for the vehicles like "Snazziest Ride" could exist that provides a bonus to one vehicle a turn, i.e "My tank is da best, it's better than all these gitz", maybe a +1 save or +1BS or both.

Points wise, I'd like to see some cost reductions on Kustom-Shootas, dakkajets, power-klawz, and the mega-nobz.

CaffeineIsGood wrote:

Dannohawk wrote:

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.

I'd love some gretchin snipers, a low-points elite shooting choice sounds great, bit like ratlings.

What i'd suggest is maybe have them shoot with with...
Grot Scope-Blasta: Heavy 18" 3S -1AP 1D
And then give them a special model like...
Grunt-Spotta: D6 models within unit can hit on 3+ against any enemy-unit within the visible to the unit, regardless of proximity (i.e. characters).

And for lols allow up to 2 stray-squigs in a unit of Gretchin that deal D3 attacks, but on a 1 it deals a wound to its own unit, the models exist in fantasy and it'd be great to import them in some regard.

Something like, but not quite, the dakkadakkadakka rule for shootas would be good, maybe if 20+ models are shooting the same unit they get a "lead-rain" ability that gives it some kind of boost, +1 against units out of cover, no idea just spitballing.

Similarly maybe something for the vehicles like "Snazziest Ride" could exist that provides a bonus to one vehicle a turn, i.e "My tank is da best, it's better than all these gitz", maybe a +1 save or +1BS or both.

Points wise, I'd like to see some cost reductions on Kustom-Shootas, dakkajets, power-klawz, and the mega-nobz.

You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.

I agree with the idea of Dakka Dakka Dakka.

Ballistic Skill modifiers should not apply when the shooter is not really trying to hit something & just firing loudly in a certain direction. This would be a fluffy way to deal with the situation.

I was thinking an Ork equivalent to Legion Traits could also apply, given what they are going with AM and AdMech.

Goffs: Advance and charge.

Blood Axes: Ignore enemy modifiers on morale rolls.

Snakebites: Anything better than a shoota gets BS 4.

Evil Suns: Vehicle charges are 3d6.

Would love for someone to suggest more.

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.

I'd go as far 24", but I was thinking cheap and in terms of what a grot might have, I usually have some elite slots free in games so dirt-cheap shootas just to pepper a target might work in the right slot
Again spitballing, but grot snipers are described in the lore, so it'd be great to see.

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

Would love for someone to suggest more.

For Klan Traits I like the idea of
Bad Moonz: up to X nobz in a unit can replace their kustom-shoota with a snazzgun.
Snakebites: up to X ork boys in a unit can replace their weapons with a big choppa
Goffs: On any ork charge unit has +1 strength
Blood Axes: +1 Cover Save on all orks
Evil Suns: Vehicles get +X inches on charge & advance, provided the model is partially red
Death Skullz: Up to 1 guaranteed save a turn, on any model that is partially blue
Freebooters: Nobz get +1 BS, provided the model has more than 3 primary colours

For the 3rd time just spitballing, I look forward to seeing what special abilities the orks get, and fingers crossed some new models.

CaffeineIsGood wrote:

You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.

I'd go as far 24", but I was thinking cheap and in terms of what a grot might have, I usually have some elite slots free in games so dirt-cheap shootas just to pepper a target might work in the right slot
Again spitballing, but grot snipers are described in the lore, so it'd be great to see.

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

Would love for someone to suggest more.

For Klan Traits I like the idea of
Bad Moonz: up to X nobz in a unit can replace their kustom-shoota with a snazzgun.
Snakebites: up to X ork boys in a unit can replace their weapons with a big choppa
Goffs: On any ork charge unit has +1 strength
Blood Axes: +1 Cover Save on all orks
Evil Suns: Vehicles get +X inches on charge & advance, provided the model is partially red
Death Skullz: Up to 1 guaranteed save a turn, on any model that is partially blue
Freebooters: Nobz get +1 BS, provided the model has more than 3 primary colours

For the 3rd time just spitballing, I look forward to seeing what special abilities the orks get, and fingers crossed some new models.

I hope they don't go that way for Klan Traits, that would make us one of the weakest factions, further tying bonuses to paint jobs is bad design as it limits creativity. Only the Goff trait here seems decent, not great but decent.

CaffeineIsGood wrote:

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

I don't worry about slots anymore, in fact usually I want fewer slots (ie more detachments.)

It might be nice to use lobbas on some HQs, like we used to. Probably not celestine, rowboat, mortarion, etc. For them we need the almighty bubblechukka of doom!

I hope they don't go that way for Klan Traits, that would make us one of the weakest factions, further tying bonuses to paint jobs is bad design as it limits creativity. Only the Goff trait here seems decent, not great but decent

Okay so since those traits seem a little weak I've tried to elaborate from them that's not too OP

Snake Bites : Primeval Mindset
Lore: Having rejected many advancements in ork technology these boyz live for da hunt
+1 Weapon Skill against Tougher opponents, any boy/nob may discard their slugga/ranged-alternative for an additional attack.

Goffs : Mean Spirited
Lore: A klan of bullies like this relish in lopsided fighting, provided they're on top of course!
+1 Damage against less Tough opponents, +1 Strength on turn unit charged.

Deff Skullz : Objectively Lucky
Lore: Decorated in stolen charms and blue paint, these orks manifest their own good fortune
+1 to Save verses ranged attacks, May force opponent to reroll 1 die a turn.

Bad Moonz : Mo'Teef Mo'Dakka
Lore: Their grotz know how to get to good stuff at a discount
Nobz get free kustom-shootas, any Warboss may take a snazzgun, Boyz may take an additional 2 'eavy weapons.

Evil Suns : Blaze of Glory
Lore: Hurtling towards the enemy is better than walking.
Opponent rolls -1 Ballistic-Skill against vehicles that have moved 8"+ from their initial position, D3+ Attacks on charge from non-flying vehicles for self-inflicted Wound, vehicles with Explode can be triggered on 2+.

Blood Axes : Surprise Party
Lore: Some Opponents need to be tricked into a good time.
Can substitute up to two slots for 2 fortifications, + 1 Ballistic & Weapon Skill on any unit's deployment turn.

Freebooters : Unork'odox Approach
Toof grabbing rejects that thought they were too good for mainstream ork society.
4+ Ballistic Skill -2 Leadership on all ORK Infantry and Airborne units, +1 Leadership on Gretchin units.

Feel free to suggest how you'd do them, I'm pretty new to the game but I've always been a fan of the lore.

Still crap for most of these traits. Blood axes, wtf?

SemperMortis wrote:
Still crap for most of these traits. Blood axes, wtf?

Obviously the poster doesn't play blood axes.

Blood axes: -1 to hit.

After the ig codex i think we can now safely demand what ever we want!

 Grimskul wrote:

Lords of War:

Stompa - Needs a huuuuge price cut. Down to 700 points area. Make the Supa-Gatler 3D6 shots and have it deal 2 damage for each shot. Change the Deffkannon to be 2D6 shots base, with it increasing to 3D6 shots against units that are 10 or more in size. Make the slash option of the Mega Choppa to deal 3 flat damage instead of D3. Remove the limit of only firing 1 supa-rokkit a turn.

I'm so disappointed by the stompa. Played against necron and he used the stompa 4turns against me, so he actually saw 9 or 10 gameturns that game and did absolutely nothing... not against him, not against me. It did not murdered squads completely in CC (and then they resurrect).. If you manage to throw 4+ shots with the deffkanon, you still have to hit and wound so you end up doing nothing instead of sending blobs of enemys in orbit. damn the lost 10" template...

This makes me wanna go even further than OP's wishlist because the stompa lacks ALOT of offensive power.
my stompa wishlist additions:
- 600 point MAX! (seems me to be inline with baneblade)
-reduce the randomness: 6+d6 shots for deffkanon for example (yeah, I know this is never going to happen)
-grott gunner rule variant, hits on 4+
-give him stomp attacks back
-fear special rule in CC

I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.

 lolman1c wrote:
After the ig codex i think we can now safely demand what ever we want!

Safely cuz no one is listening.

SemperMortis wrote:
I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.

my point exactly

SemperMortis wrote:
I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.

The close combat isn't really even worth mentioning, it is basically flat out worse than a Gorkanaut for almost the cost of 3 gorkanauts. Yeah it's strength 20 if it uses its 4 ATTACKS, 4 attacks for near 1000 points, and 6 damage per attack instead of D6, but I would almost always take 12 S16 attacks (just 2 Gorks) over the 4 from the Stompa, they both wound basically everything on 2s. -5 AP vs -4 is basically a non-issue, it only matters against 2+ save models without invul saves (so land raiders). But on averages the Stompa averages 13 wounds against a land raider (it's best target) but it is really 12 wounds. 2 Gorks against the same target average 19.444. If we go with the more attacks at base strength, both average 2 damage, but the Gorks get 36 attacks vs 12.

A couple more ideas I had. Not necessarily balanced, just wanted to write them down for fun and to keep them unique. Hopefully we don't get the basic copy-paste army traits that the other books are getting, but I have a grim feeling we'll get the predictable -1 to hit blood axes, 6++ FNP for Deathskulls etc.

Klan traits:

Goffs: +1 Leadership to all Ork units. Ork models have +1 attack in the fight phase against units with lower bravery.

-Aimed at taking advantage of Mob Rule, making large masses of Ork infantry even more devastating in melee.

Bad Moonz: In the shooting phase, all hit rolls of 6 generate an additional attack. Ork infantry do not suffer any penalties for assault weapons after advancing.

-Meant to represent the Bad Moonz preference for more dakka.

Evil Sunz: In the movement phase, when Ork units advance, they can roll two dice and pick the highest. Ork vehicles do not suffer any penalties for assault weapons after advancing.

-Makes the Evil Sunz the mobile army, getting the best use out of vehicles such as trukks and bikes

Snakebites: In the shooting phase, any Ork unit may skip firing with a pistol weapon, instead performing an attack with melee weapons as if it were the fight phase. Ork infantry gets +1 to their save characteristic when charging.

-Meant to highlight the Snakebite primitive preference for using choppas

Blood Axes: Ork units re-roll save rolls of 1 while in cover. In the movement phase, Ork infantry may move up to 5 inches vertically for free in addition to their normal movement.

-Blood Axes attack from unexpected angles, and can over navigate terrain to attack their enemies in seemingly impossible ways.

Deathskulls: Enemy AP characteristics are reduced against Ork units by 1. Ork characters may re-roll one dice during their actions per turn.

-Lucky in that opponents weapons seem to never be quite as effective against them. Deathskull characters would get the re-roll to represent them having accumulate more luck by nature of being more Orky

Weirdboy Powers:

Unsure of what ranges/cast value these might have. They would have be scaled for both to be appropriately balanced. I imagine both these would be particularly powerful in several situations, so they would probably have a high cast value, limited range, or both.

Diskombobulate - Until your next turn, switch a unit's ballistic skill with the unit's weapon skill (friend or foe).

-Imagine this coupled with the Da Jump with a mob of 30 shoota boyz. Could also be used to give grots and kans additional kick in melee, or to mess with an enemy's melee or shooting for a turn.

Grot-a-palooza - Until your next turn, reduce an enemy's characteristics to 5+ WS, 4+ BS, and 4 LD.

-The unit believes they are grots for a turn. Hilarity ensues.

I think the ork traits should be something like this

Bad Moons - overwatch on 5+ and may reroll the number of shots for random number the weapon fires (any number of dice).

Blood Axes - -1 to hit outside of 12"

Goff Boys - +1 attack when each model is in base to base contact with another.

Evil Sunz - When advancing roll two pick the highest. Everyone with this clan trait also ignores the penalties to shooting when advancing. And Ork <Vehicles> may take a red paint job which adds +3" to their advance.

Deathskulls - When an enemy model is slain in the fight phase by an Ork model from this clan it may loot the enemy model. If it is an infantry model it regains 1 wound lost earlier in battle, if it is a vehicle model it regains 1 hull point.

Lucky Orks. Deathskulls models do not need to be in cover to count as covered; only obscured.

Snakebites - thick hide. On the roll of a 5+ a wound that would be inflicted is ignored.

Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)

leopard wrote:
Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)

A small amount of abuse in this is using sluggas with shootas. Also combi weapons too.

leopard wrote:
Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)

You math is a bit off, to the point that you would really only do this if you were at -2 to hit.

For -1 to hit for 60 shots, you would hit 10 at a 6 to hit. Going to a 5+ to hit for 30 shots, hits 10 times as well, doing it again for 4+ to hit, gets you 15 shots or 7.5 hits. In this case rolling 60 dice is likely still better due to the upside, and more dice making average more likely.

Only when you get to -2 to hit would it make sense because it would allow you to hit at all. At that point it would be 30 shots at a 6+ so 5 hits. Or 15 at a 5 + also 5 hits.

I hope they make Freebooterz rules, something like if you have more then one <Clan> (or non-character <Clan> Infantry units) in a Detachment you get unique army wide Freebooter rule similar to pure <Clan> rules and access to all <Clan> specific Stratagems (or at least those <Clan> specific stratagems from <Clan>s you have in your detachment, or pick 2-3 <Clan> specific Stratagems from the list).

Or Orks could get +1 to hit at half range or closer, because when Orks get even closer to the enemy they get even more excited. Because those trigger fingers are getting excited too, the Orks will then be putting so many more bullets in the air at closer ranges that they can't help but have a better chance of hitting soemthing.

1 Command Point
You call that shooting?
Allow one unit to reroll failed to hit roles.
- Make lootas and Gorks/morks useful

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return
For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.


Lucky stick +25 Points
All previous rules but add On a 4+ get back used Command Points

Red Weasel wrote:

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return
For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.

Why the debuff? How many other armies pay 2CP and have a huge minus with their plus?

Red Weasel wrote:
1 Command Point
You call that shooting?
Allow one unit to reroll failed to hit roles.
- Make lootas and Gorks/morks useful

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return
For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.


Lucky stick +25 Points
All previous rules but add On a 4+ get back used Command Points

Gotta agree with JimonMars that it makes no sense to have a drawback to a stratagem. The only downside should be the cost of the CP required. Adding more needless debuffs just smacks of unnecessary nerfing that riddled the previous codex.

Also the Lucky stikk makes no sense to give back used Command Points since fluffwise that makes no sense. Like most other non-weapon relics it shouldn't cost anything and simply change to allow the model holding it to re-roll one failed to hit, to wound and to save roll per player turn. If you fail the re-roll on all three, your model suffers a mortal wound. Makes it less crazy. Maaaaaybe also include the function of a WAAAGH! Banner of giving a +1 to hit to units within 6" but then it'd be auto-take and undermine Banner Nobz.

The Finkin' Kap should be the one that gives you a chance to regen Command Points on a 5+, in addition to giving you another warlord trait.

I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.

 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.

As powerful as re-rolls are I'd rather not see them for orks. We roll too many dice already and re-rolling a ton of them would make games take forever.

Breng77 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.

As powerful as re-rolls are I'd rather not see them for orks. We roll too many dice already and re-rolling a ton of them would make games take forever.

agreed. Orks get enough hits in combat anyway. Just let DLS give us +1 BS for nearby units.

 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.

That wouldn't even help Ork shooting worth a damn. If you field 10 lootas who get 3 shots you are only getting 5 1s on average which means you are likely to only get 1.6 extra hits out of 20 misses. Is that even worth 5 pts? Let alone 15-20. Now o understand the next line is "well you can stack several units near the bubble. Ok well if you fielded 3 units of 10 lootas your would average 60 shots a turn and would get 10 rerolls for a total of 3.3 extra hits a turn. And even if this was a free ability they gave him it wouldn't be worth using it for that purpose because you would hamstring your army trying to be shooty when nothing we possess in our index is even close to shooty enough.

Now if it gave rerolls for hits/wounds I would then pay an extra 20-25pts for the Mek and it would serve as a useful strategy.

Of course units need points reductions and something even to be better re-written. But a big mek that allows re-rolls of shooting stuff is very cool IMHO, he could also help bikers, kans, bustas that don't aim at vehicles with a bike for himself.

Orks (but IMHO every army deserves that) should also have a special rule that allows units embarked in open topped transports to get benefits from the bubbles. Like badrukk's one on flash gitz. And the characters embarked to give their bubble to other units.

I'd rather have a mek or big mek upgrade that just gave +1 to hit for shooting. Re-rolls require extra rolling for not much more benefit. A 5+ re-roll is about the same as just hitting on a 4+ (56% vs 50%), but the +1 to hit would also help with negative modifiers, and would save time on needing to re-roll a bunch of dice. I just don't like re-rolls as an ork mechanic. I would like things that allowed re-rolling number of shots/rolling 2 dice pick the highest for number of shots for random shot weapons though.

I don't know much about orks but after looking at their index they need to always hit on 6s

I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.

 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.

 office_waaagh wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.

While orks may not be a purely shooty army like Tau, I feel like you're missing out on a huuuuge part of Orks if you think shooting is not one of the central aspects of Orks. Orks embrace practically all aspects of warfare, shooting included. The whole adage of this site "dakka dakka" comes from Orks and if you've ever played previous editions with Orks you'd know that our schtick is quantity over quality, with an emphasis of mass attacks in CC and overwhelming firepower in shooting. We weren't originally so bad at shooting either, being the bog standard of BS3 (hitting on 4's) before the 5th ed codex came in and gave us BS2 in return for the sheer quantity of shots we had over a lot of armies. The problem now is that so many negative to hit modifiers are being thrown like candy, our amount of shots aren't keeping up with it, especially when we get penalized so much more and our pricing is so off (compare our twin big shoota costs to twin assault cannons for example). So either we need something to compensate ala the ignore modifiers racial rule or at least a global USR where you always hit on a natural 6.

 office_waaagh wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.

Then what are lootas for? Are you suggesting that we charge with a 17 point model that is much, much worse in combat than a 6 point one?

 office_waaagh wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.

For an army that's "not supposed to shoot" we sure have a lot of units devoted to shooting. Lootas, flashgitz, killa kanz, Mel gunz, big gunz, morkanaut, tankbustas, warbikes, Big Mek/SAG, war buggies, war tracks, deffkoptas, burnas, Burnabommers, dakka jets, blitzabommer,wazbom; the list is actually over HALF of our codex. Our only truly devoted CC unit worth a damn is Boyz, Kommandos and stormboyz.

 Grimskul wrote:
While orks may not be a purely shooty army like Tau, I feel like you're missing out on a huuuuge part of Orks if you think shooting is not one of the central aspects of Orks. Orks embrace practically all aspects of warfare, shooting included. The whole adage of this site "dakka dakka" comes from Orks and if you've ever played previous editions with Orks you'd know that our schtick is quantity over quality, with an emphasis of mass attacks in CC and overwhelming firepower in shooting. We weren't originally so bad at shooting either, being the bog standard of BS3 (hitting on 4's) before the 5th ed codex came in and gave us BS2 in return for the sheer quantity of shots we had over a lot of armies. The problem now is that so many negative to hit modifiers are being thrown like candy, our amount of shots aren't keeping up with it, especially when we get penalized so much more and our pricing is so off (compare our twin big shoota costs to twin assault cannons for example). So either we need something to compensate ala the ignore modifiers racial rule or at least a global USR where you always hit on a natural 6.

It was actually 3rd edition when we went from BS 3 to BS 2 (4+ to 5+ in 8th ed parlance). I played 2nd edition with Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. I played the Feral Orks rules for 3rd ed that had Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. I played a ton of Gorkamorka with Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. We never actually got a codex in 5th ed, the 4th ed codex lasted all the way until 7th. In every one of those lists we paid for it with decreased close combat capability: a WS of 3 (roughly equivalent to 4+ in 8th), one attack, and no Furious Charge.

To put it into "real world" terms, a lot more goes into hitting your enemy than pointing your gun and pulling the trigger. Fire discipline, careful management of ammunition expenditure by a leader controlling rates of fire, proper weapons handling drills, and the ability to apply marksmanship principles under stress all contribute to your ability to hit a target under combat conditions. Orks went to the "volume of fire" school of marksmanship.

In game terms, the army is balanced around close combat power being our mainstay. We pay comparatively more points for shooting units for what they're capable of because they fill a deliberate weakness in our army that balances our strength. I could see "always hit on 6's" or "ignore to hit modifiers" as either a stratagem or an aura buff from a character, or maybe a psychic power, but building it into the makeup of the army is, in my humble opinion with which you are free to disagree, contrary to the spirit of the army.

Then what are lootas for? Are you suggesting that we charge with a 17 point model that is much, much worse in combat than a 6 point one?

Obviously, I'm not suggesting that all units in the list are meant for assault. I'm just pointing out that Orks are a melee-focused army and the shooting units are there as backup. Again, I'm not saying you can't make an Ork gunline army, just that it shouldn't be as effective as an AM or SM gunline army any more than making a melee Tau army should be as effective as an Ork melee army. Shooting is our "plan B", it constitutes a not insignificant but still very much secondary part of our army's combat power.

I don't think the shooting part of orks should be minimized. Yeah, it shouldn't be like IG or Tau, and a good Ork army should be balance both in shooting and meele, even if you can go more one way or the other.

But saying "Orks should be the assault horde army with shooting as a support" just makes Orks Green Tyranids.

 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.

Too limited. I'd recommend rather that you choose an enemy unit and your units don't suffer negative modifiers shooting at it.

 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.

You may be right, if only orks close combat was something really powerful. If pks, killsaws and other choppy options were brutal I can agree, if the shooting is invalidated our CC could resolve things. But since orks melee ability is basically reduced to tons of S4 with no AP attacks, we're not even a good close combat oriented army. Having a weak melee ability and the shooting completely invalidated means that orks can't do anything against those kind of armies that give negative modifiers.

I might not remember correctly, but I was reasonably sure Ork boyz in 4th-7th edition were BS 2 and WS4 with 2 base attacks.

And before that I can't remember much, but I do remember that Ork choppa weapons had an armor modifier built in which made them better at CC.

Plus your reasoning of why Ork shooting should be extra expensive is ridiculous. I've heard this broken logic argument more then I care to remember. One side says "Orks are good at CC so their shooting should be bad (IE over priced). The other side says "Ork CC is too good it needs to be expensive! (IE why our PKs should cost more then a SM PF)".

You can't have both and yet we do. Ironically our "good" cc unit is nothing more then a spammed boyz list with tons of AP- S4 attacks.

Ork players need to tell GW to stop with this nonsense and when other Ork players say what you just did it invalidates so much of the problems we face it's ridiculous. Orks aren't good at CC and we aren't good at shooting. We just have a Feth load of boyz models. That's it.

SemperMortis wrote:
I might not remember correctly, but I was reasonably sure Ork boyz in 4th-7th edition were BS 2 and WS4 with 2 base attacks.

And before that I can't remember much, but I do remember that Ork choppa weapons had an armor modifier built in which made them better at CC.

Plus your reasoning of why Ork shooting should be extra expensive is ridiculous. I've heard this broken logic argument more then I care to remember. One side says "Orks are good at CC so their shooting should be bad (IE over priced). The other side says "Ork CC is too good it needs to be expensive! (IE why our PKs should cost more then a SM PF)".

You can't have both and yet we do. Ironically our "good" cc unit is nothing more then a spammed boyz list with tons of AP- S4 attacks.

Ork players need to tell GW to stop with this nonsense and when other Ork players say what you just did it invalidates so much of the problems we face it's ridiculous. Orks aren't good at CC and we aren't good at shooting. We just have a Feth load of boyz models. That's it.

We have been emailing GW...oh boy we have been... gamefaqs@gwplc.com And we need to keep it up until they change.

The way it should be is this:

Orks are bad at shooting...therefore they cannot fit as much firepower into a small space on the board. I.e. Our models, which are 1/2 as effective as another army's 24 point model, should cost 12 points.

But some say--that doesn't make them "bad at shooting" anymore!!! Yes it does. "Bad at shooting" should never mean "shooting models must be overpriced."

What it means is that there are OTHER effects which make us bad; IE can't fit all those models into cover, can't fit all the models in the good spot on the board, can't fit all those models on the objective, can't fit all those models in the terrain, can't fit all those models in the transport, can't fit all those models in the building, can't fit all those models in the deployment zone.

As a result, in a perfect game, orks are "bad at shooting," even if they are just as points efficient as every other army.

In other words, we are penalized for being bad at shooting by making the shooting game tactically difficult. Challenge Accepted, and Welcomed!!

We need to keep hammering on GW until they get it.

(and in case you are wondering...it should work both ways as well. Kroot Carnivores are S3, T3 with 1 attack. They should be 4 points, not 6.)

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?

 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?

There isn't anything inherently wrong with having a ton of troops. It's fitting as well, the problem is that to be competitive, it's literally the only way.

As far as Orks not being good at CC....well they aren't. Meganobz are a joke, regular nobz are squishy and not worth taking compared to boyz, Burma boyz suck, the only "good" CC units are boyz being spammed in numbers that the enemy can't deal with. Compare 180pts of Boyz Vs 180pts of Lhorne Berserkers, who wins? 11 Zerkers is 176pts they have 3 attacks each (4 for the champ) are strength 5 ohh and they get to swing TWICE in every fight phase. So that is 68 S5 attacks hitting on 3s so 45ish hits and 30ish wounds. Against Ork 6+ armor that's 25 casualties. 5 Orkz swing back and get 15 attacks 10 hits and 5 wounds VS 3+ armor that's only 1-2 dead Marines.

 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?

The reason to be unhappy about any one unit being the obvious choice, is that it makes it so that taking the "cool" units a penalty, rather than a bonus and kills list diversity. It is great that boyz are good. I don't want them to be bad, but I want taking a unit of Nobz to be an improvement over taking a unit of boyz. They are supposed to be a stronger unit, now I don't want them to be so good that you never want to take boyz either. I just want it to be a choice. Right now there is basically no time where given the choice between more boyz and another unit in our army, where you look at it and think "for x role this unit is better than boyz, or at least not enough to make them a better choice than boyz." want to kill a tank, boyz aren't great, but equal points of boyz are pretty on par with most other options especially when you look at durability as well. For instance 10 tank bustas are 170 points, and average 6 wounds to most tanks. For those same points I can get 28 boyz. Those same boyz are way more durable (more than twice) and average 8 wounds to the same tank (only including combat). So why take tank bustas especially when they become target #1 when compared to the boyz mobs.

Meganobz are far from a joke, especially if you can buff them with a waaaagh banner and a painboy. 2+ saves are effectively a 5+ invlun, which is a huge help.

Normal nobz are a bit squishy, but ammo runts help quite a bit with that.

And as for the boyz v. zerkers comparison, remember that's dependent on who gets the charge. If those boyz charge the zerkers, you're looking at very, very different numbers.

SemperMortis wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?

There isn't anything inherently wrong with having a ton of troops. It's fitting as well, the problem is that to be competitive, it's literally the only way.

As far as Orks not being good at CC....well they aren't. Meganobz are a joke, regular nobz are squishy and not worth taking compared to boyz, Burma boyz suck, the only "good" CC units are boyz being spammed in numbers that the enemy can't deal with. Compare 180pts of Boyz Vs 180pts of Lhorne Berserkers, who wins? 11 Zerkers is 176pts they have 3 attacks each (4 for the champ) are strength 5 ohh and they get to swing TWICE in every fight phase. So that is 68 S5 attacks hitting on 3s so 45ish hits and 30ish wounds. Against Ork 6+ armor that's 25 casualties. 5 Orkz swing back and get 15 attacks 10 hits and 5 wounds VS 3+ armor that's only 1-2 dead Marines.

Well to be fair turn that around to the orks charging 29 boyz is 174 points. They get 116 attacks hitting on 3s, so 77 hits, 38 wounds = 12 dead berserkers. So it comes down to who gets the charge. The problem boyz have is they lack other units to back them up, and lack ways other than a weirdboy to get to combat.

Ohh and the negative to hit modifiers are usually -1. But that's huge for our army because it negates about 1/2 of our shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng, csm are also FASTER then Ork boyz. They are more likely to get the charge off, especially with their abilities.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Meganobz are far from a joke, especially if you can buff them with a waaaagh banner and a painboy. 2+ saves are effectively a 5+ invlun, which is a huge help.

Normal nobz are a bit squishy, but ammo runts help quite a bit with that.

And as for the boyz v. zerkers comparison, remember that's dependent on who gets the charge. If those boyz charge the zerkers, you're looking at very, very different numbers.

The issue with MANZ is that they need the banner or they are pretty bad. They really need to be able to hit on a 3+. They are decently durable unless the opponent has mortal wound spam. Further, if they need character support that means they also need a transport and that gets expensive fast. 5 MANZ + painboy + Banner + transport is minimum of almost 500 points (496).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Ohh and the negative to hit modifiers are usually -1. But that's huge for our army because it negates about 1/2 of our shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng, csm are also FASTER then Ork boyz. They are more likely to get the charge off, especially with their abilities.

Sure right now with the ability to infiltrate berzerkers, run effective squads in a transport, or use psychic powers. Our only way is to Da Jump and pray for a 9. Just pointing out that the math of who charges matters, and the lack of support is the issue, not the capability of the unit. You could easily also screen the berserkers and counter charge, but then your army is doing very little because our shooting sucks.

I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.

It isn't a nerf compared to last edition. It is just that everything else got buffed, so given their points cost they need to hit better to be reliable.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.

I think it has more to do with the fact that Power klaws now only do D3 damage each which means their damage potential is a LOT lower than the previous edition, especially since our ideal targets are now wounded normally on 3's rather than 2's. With the amount of wounds vehicles/monsters have now and the unreliability of D3 damage per klaw hit (and now even 3+ save models have a chance of saving against them, unlike before), a unit of 3 Meganobz has a surprisingly mediocre chance of killing a rhino outright in one round of combat, whereas before it was basically a sure thing. Definitely a transition to get used to but currently the price point they are at does not reflect their damage output and the plethora of plasma and lascannons firing about makes their 2+ save largely moot.

I can see the argument about their random damage output, that's something I honestly have noticed as well.

But hell, I still love their 2+ save. At least they now get a 5+ save against plasma/las/power fists - last edition their 2+ save really WAS moot against those weapons.

Powerfist can't kill vehicles anymore. No matter the unit that uses them, be it a ork or space marines.

Heck, even a squad of Deathknight Knights without the -1 penalty in their Thunderhammer-like maces that have 1 less of AP have problems killing a rhino.

So I don't think thats how one should measure that. Chain Fist and Powerfist are now for killing elite infantry, not vehicles.

 Galas wrote:
Powerfist can't kill vehicles anymore. No matter the unit that uses them, be it a ork or space marines.

Heck, even a squad of Deathknight Knights without the -1 penalty in their Thunderhammer-like maces that have 1 less of AP have problems killing a rhino.

So I don't think thats how one should measure that. Chain Fist and Powerfist are now for killing elite infantry, not vehicles.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems with the Ork index right now. PKs and Killsaws aren't good at killing vehicles so what the hell do we use to kill them? I am at the point in my gaming where I ignore vehicles or keep them tied up in combat because I have NO answer beyond sending Ghaz after them. And don't say "tankbustas" because they are trash right now as well. If they aren't in a trukk minimum they are killed turn 1 and even then it's not guaranteed because trukkz and wagons are so expensive we can't spam them like we used to. Plus 10 tank bustas will be lucky to kill a rhino in one round of shooting. Anything heavier then that or T8 and forget about it.

So our glorious CC style army can't CC vehicles and can't shoot them.

Yeah, I don't bother with big choppas or pks anymore, all my nobz just have the free choppa. The only good thing about that is the fact that I finally use my AOBR nobz, which never went into battle in the previous edition with the exception of a couple of them the very few times I've brought the council of the Waaagh. Wow

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, I don't bother with big choppas or pks anymore, all my nobz just have the free choppa. The only good thing about that is the fact that I finally use my AOBR nobz, which never went into battle in the previous edition with the exception of a couple of them the very few times I've brought the council of the Waaagh. Wow

I Have gone back to issuing BCs to my nobz simply because I run into far to many vehicles and MCs in my games now. Having 2-4 BCs attacking something along with 30-60 Boyz tends to get the desired result (Unless its T8).

We really need some Anti-Tank options that don't suck. Even if they slashed Tank Bustas price in half it woldn't be enough because you still need to buy a transport for the :(

I don't have the current Xeno index (I should buy that?). Is Orky shootaz Rapid Fire or Assault?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
I don't have the current Xeno index (I should buy that?). Is Orky shootaz Rapid Fire or Assault?

M.

18" Str 4 AP - Assault 2.

They're assault. I don't think Rapid Fire is even a profile in the Ork index.

In fact, I can't think of a rapid fire weapon they've had in a long time...

Well, at least they're not THAT bad...

M.

While PKs are stupid expensive right now, is it reasonable to hope they get a boost to they're "killyness." I can't help but feel their damage output can be quite lackluster at times. Technically PKs are the Ork equivalent of lascannons I think, not powerfists; the high damage weapon meant to crack open hard targets.

Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.

T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.

I'd love the 6'' movement. It also makes sense, just look at the boyz, they're some sort of little hulks.

Rather than T5 I'd like a 6+ FNP for all orks infantries and bikers that is cumulative with the painboy bubble, so it would become 5+ with the dok nearby.

Grot gunners for Gorks and Morks. Let em take up transport capacity but let the walkers actually do more than advance and die.

I made Stratagems and Klan Attributes (attributes sounds bad, but tactics is even worse IMO).

Link: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angrier_Initiative#ORKS

Not doing the math for S 3 seems like a bad idea. Maybe Boyz aren't tough enough, but do Orks really need to be much tougher than humans? Isn't it enough that Orks are a little bit tougher wearing nothing but a leather vest vs combat armour. Orks are suppose to be a horde army, they are already quite a bit tougher than the smaller Tyranids, I really don't see the problem. There already isn't far between an Ork and a Space Marine.

36 S 4 AP - hits kills 15 Orks or 16 Guardsmen 6.66% more.

36 S 3 AP - hits kills 10 Orks or 12 Guardsmen 20% more.

36 S 7 AP 1 hits kills 24 Orks or 25 Guardsmen 25% more.

36 S 7 AP 3 hits kills 24 Orks or 30 Guardsmen 4.17% more.

36 S 4 AP 1 hits kills 18 Orks or 20 Guardsmen 11.11% more.

36 S 5 AP 2 hits kills 24 Orks or 24 Guardsmen 0% more.

SemperMortis wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.

T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.

T4 6+ is, mathematically, marginally more resilient than T3 5+ against anything up to S5. Although I'd personally like to see Ardboyz make a comeback, there is no problem at all with basic orks in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that models with fancy kit (e.g. Lootas) are just as squishy as Boyz is a bit of an issue, but rather than messing about with the core stats of Orks, I think that squishiness just needs to be factored in when establishing the costs of upgrades. If you want better, more resilient Orks, take Nobz. It's literally what they're there for.

 Nazrak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.

T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.

T4 6+ is, mathematically, marginally more resilient than T3 5+ against anything up to S5. Although I'd personally like to see Ardboyz make a comeback, there is no problem at all with basic orks in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that models with fancy kit (e.g. Lootas) are just as squishy as Boyz is a bit of an issue, but rather than messing about with the core stats of Orks, I think that squishiness just needs to be factored in when establishing the costs of upgrades. If you want better, more resilient Orks, take Nobz. It's literally what they're there for.

Except nobz are still over priced and crap unless you buy an ammo runt and even then they still aren't any more durable then a boy pt for pt. I do agree though that our specialists need either more armor or lower costs.

I'd love for trukks to either get cheaper, or have an ability to offset their high cost and low durability besides ramshackle.

A unique permission to disembark units after moving would be choice. Even if it cost an upgrade (boarding plank).

Want to see a few things come in, or back

1. allow elements of the fantasy range to be used - zero cost for GW to do this, e.g. allow "primitives" using fantasy orks with sticks, spears etc, perfect for Snakebites among other things - ditto the squig units

2. bring back "big uns", ideally a new kit with slightly larger models and various bling bits, these can be the T4 W2 or T5 W1 models with a better save and maybe stronger in combat but smaller mobs

3. at least one (weedy) Gretchen HQ and ideally at least one or two more Grot units - thinking a short ranged sniper and some other sneaky type unit that infiltrates but isn't amazingly good at it

4. realistic costs for the vehicles so they occasionally get used

5. The six main clans and Cult of Speed to get their own flavour, like the Tyranid Hive Fleets have

leopard wrote:
Want to see a few things come in, or back

1. allow elements of the fantasy range to be used - zero cost for GW to do this, e.g. allow "primitives" using fantasy orks with sticks, spears etc, perfect for Snakebites among other things - ditto the squig units

2. bring back "big uns", ideally a new kit with slightly larger models and various bling bits, these can be the T4 W2 or T5 W1 models with a better save and maybe stronger in combat but smaller mobs

3. at least one (weedy) Gretchen HQ and ideally at least one or two more Grot units - thinking a short ranged sniper and some other sneaky type unit that infiltrates but isn't amazingly good at it

4. realistic costs for the vehicles so they occasionally get used

5. The six main clans and Cult of Speed to get their own flavour, like the Tyranid Hive Fleets have

1. Snakebites ≠ feral Orks. More squigs would obv be great though.

2. Nobz already exist. You just described Nobz.

3. Grot HQs don't make any sense in 40K. No self-respecting Ork is going to let a weedy grot boss them about. Snipers aren't a bad shout though.

4. Yep, totally. At the moment the vehicles are too expensive for what they do, which has the added problem that if you take them, you're eating into your points too much to be able to buy sufficient boyz.

5. I can't see there's any chance we won't be getting Clan rules for the big six. Not sure KoS necessarily need specific rules; it's more about army composition. Although obviously the latter is dependent on vehicles being more viable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A few more thoughts on the Clan stuff:

So far, any traits/chapter tactics/etc. seem to be dependent on having all units within a detachment share the same <Chapter>, <Regiment> etc. keyword. Given Ork Warbands’ tendency to comprise Orks from a number of different Clans, it seems that imposing this restriction wouldn’t be particularly appropriate, from an in-universe perspective. As a long-time Warboss, originally attracted to the faction by the wide variety of units and colour schemes, I think it would be a crying shame if the Clan rules served to encourage “mono-Clan” army builds. It seems to me there are a few potential options here:
Allow mixed-Clan detachments. The most straightforward, but perhaps inadvisable as it could lead to a) complaints from non-Ork players who feel Orks are being given a benefit not afforded to other armies; b) players simply cherry-picking the most effective Clan trait for any given unit. <Clan> bonuses (e.g. from a Waaagh! Banner) would obviously still be restricted by keyword, but not sure if this is enough to offset the obvious advantages/potential for abuse of this approach.

Allow mixed-Clan detachments, but only allow players to allocate a specific <Clan> keyword to a unit within that detachment if there is a Boyz mob with that keyword in the same detachment. (E.g., you can add a unit of Deathskulls Lootas to your detachment provided you have a Deathskulls Boyz mob too.) This would hark back to the way Ork armies were composed in the ‘Ere We Go/Freebootas era (e.g. bring an Evil Sunz mob and you can bring a Mek too) without being as restrictive. It would probably make sense to allow players to ignore this restriction if all units within a detachment share the same <Clan> – i.e. exactly the same as with keywords in other armies. The only drawback I see to this is that it is perhaps slightly more complicated than most army composition rules this edition, although not entirely without precedent (cf Genestealer Cults/Brood Brothers).

Keep the restrictions as per other armies, but give Orks a low-end HQ, to mitigate the dual problem of multiple-Clan armies ending up with too many Points/PL tied up in HQ choices, and it not being particularly appropriate for an Ork tribe to have multiple Warbosses (for example); or for Goffs to have loads of Weirdboyz hanging around. Something roughly analogous to a Space Marine Lieutenant (statline somewhere between a Nob and Warboss; maybe bring back the “Clanboss” nomenclature – another callback to 1st Edition?) could easily be represented using a model from the Nobz kit, and afford ample opportunities for some fun conversions/kitbashing, which we all know Ork players love.
(To be honest, I’d like to see this regardless of Clan rules, as I think it would be a fun and useful addition to the Orky repertoire.)

Thoughts?

1. Snakebites ≠ feral Orks. More squigs would obv be great though.

2. Nobz already exist. You just described Nobz.

3. Grot HQs don't make any sense in 40K. No self-respecting Ork is going to let a weedy grot boss them about. Snipers aren't a bad shout though.

4. Yep, totally. At the moment the vehicles are too expensive for what they do, which has the added problem that if you take them, you're eating into your points too much to be able to buy sufficient boyz.

5. I can't see there's any chance we won't be getting Clan rules for the big six. Not sure KoS necessarily need specific rules; it's more about army composition. Although obviously the latter is dependent on vehicles being more viable.

1. Aware snakebites != feral, they are however a natural fit for less well armed orcs or less well armoured models generally, not suggesting such are limited to them but it provides a nice theme - throw in boar riders etc, the kits are generally compatible with the 40k ones so up arming is easy enough.

2. Except the orcs have had "bigger orcs" for some time, the index removed them - the idea is something partway between boyz and nobz, better equipped and bigger, but not that high in the social ranking. thinking its a way to provide another infantry kit with different options.

3. who said anything about grits leading orks? thinking allowing a grot detachment, a cheap, not very good HQ model allowing a "grot rebellion" list - would be fully supportive of rules to reflect this so any aura etc only apply to grots, its more a way to expand the little guys roles and provide some character

4. thats the point , not just aiming for cheaper vehicles, just want them to fit in nicely and be given a cost to make it hard to decide to take them or not

5. I do hope so, thinking KoS could be given various bonuses, just needs to be different to Evil Sunz


Would also love to see looted vehicles, ideally as a section on how to convert a few other vehicles to ork control not something limited to "open play" or just a looted rhino

leopard wrote:



1. Aware snakebites != feral, they are however a natural fit for less well armed orcs or less well armoured models generally, not suggesting such are limited to them but it provides a nice theme - throw in boar riders etc, the kits are generally compatible with the 40k ones so up arming is easy enough.

2. Except the orcs have had "bigger orcs" for some time, the index removed them - the idea is something partway between boyz and nobz, better equipped and bigger, but not that high in the social ranking. thinking its a way to provide another infantry kit with different options.

3. who said anything about grits leading orks? thinking allowing a grot detachment, a cheap, not very good HQ model allowing a "grot rebellion" list - would be fully supportive of rules to reflect this so any aura etc only apply to grots, its more a way to expand the little guys roles and provide some character

4. thats the point , not just aiming for cheaper vehicles, just want them to fit in nicely and be given a cost to make it hard to decide to take them or not

5. I do hope so, thinking KoS could be given various bonuses, just needs to be different to Evil Sunz


Would also love to see looted vehicles, ideally as a section on how to convert a few other vehicles to ork control not something limited to "open play" or just a looted rhino

1. Not sure this requires any specific rules though; you can just mix in bits from the fantasy kits to give things a Snakebity vibe. I'd personally like to see Boars back, but I can't really see it happening.

2. I'm fairly sure Skarboyz haven't been a thing since the 3rd edition codex. And now Boyz are S4, I'm not sure there's really much of a space for them to occupy. I think you could make an argument for bringing back 'Ardboyz, although I do wonder if Boyz with a 4+ save might be a bit *too* good this edition. I guess it'd be fine if you costed them accordingly.

3. I see what you're driving at, but it seems GW have done away with any restrictions on what you can take, and I think this would just be opening the door to people abusing the option of a super-cheap HQ choice.

Not gonna disagree with you on the others though! No reason they couldn't give looted vehicles their own profile, and why not do a conversion sprue to add them to whatever kit you like, a la GsC/Deathwatch?

oh mixing the bits is easy enough, was thinking a more feral option though, pure close combat with no ranged weapons.

Perhaps done as "young 'uns" out to prove themselves.

Up armoured is the role I was thinking of, just forgot the name, a 4+ save would be fine with the right cost - especially limited to say one unit per formation, or in the elite slot.

I think a grot HQ would be fine - stick a rule in that the formation they are in cannot include any <ork> units.


A conversion sprue for vehicles would be wonderful, or a box with a couple of spures of bitz aimed at converting a couple of vehicles, include grot oilers etc, crew figures and other stuff that would be good in plastic but doesn't really justify its own set - the sort of thing every ork player is likely to want one or two of at least.

In general I'd like to see a few things changed with Orks when our codex is released.

1. More AP on our shooting weapons aside from Mek Gunz.
2. A reason to take PKs.
3. Properly costed vehicles.
4. More ways to dish out mortal wounds, without relying on Weirdboyz.
5. A reason to take bikes.
6. More focus from our elite units, Boyz should be the "general unit", they shouldn't be better than a specialist at performing the specialists' intended role.
7. A reason to take varied and themed lists, outside of Boyz.

I'm not sure how GW are going to go about this without nerfing Boyz or making our other units much, much cheaper. I'd prefer if they added new abilities for our existing units, rather than making them cheaper. We lack variation and we are boring to play against and with.

1-3 very much so
4.. with caution yes
5. gods yes, they look wonderful, please give them a role
6. either this or have units defined by their profile, not equipment, and have a much greater versatility in equipment
7. if they go the way Tyranids have then the different clans should get something that will provide six or so working "themes"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm not sure how GW are going to go about this without nerfing Boyz or making our other units much, much cheaper. I'd prefer if they added new abilities for our existing units, rather than making them cheaper. We lack variation and we are boring to play against and with.

I would also like new abilities for existing units, both to make them better and add more flavor. They can help out a lot of things with Stratagems, but I'm hoping to see a bunch of units get more fun rules right in their unit entries as there are only so many stratagems to go around*. Some units could probably use additional special rules and stratagems and still need a points drop in addition to that.

Before Jink existed Ork Warbikes had a special invulnerable save that extended to units behind them to represent the clouds of dust and oily smoke. I'd like to see Ork Warbikes become the Ork's version of Venomthropes, where enemies have a -1 to hit them in the shooting phase plus if they have X+ models then the -1 to hit bubble extends to other Ork units wholly within X". This rule would apply to Nob Bikers as well, and Ork characters on warbikes would benefit from the -1 to hit but they wouldn't be able to generate the bubble.

I don't like the Burna Boyz' Pyromaniaks ability. I'm glad that they got some flavor, but I just think it's a bad rule. I'd rather see them get to shoot again if they destroy a unit in the shooting phase, which would make them good at cleaning up small units. They used to have a bonus against vehicles in close combat way back when, so it would be cool if they got a rule kind of like Genestealers where on wound rolls of 6+ in close combat they are AP -4.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some negative flavorful special rules if they adjust the points accordingly. As has been mentioned before, there is a problem with Ork specialists in that we pay a lot of points for a model with one wound and a 6+ armor save. There are a lot of ways that coudl be helped, such as making transports cheaper, giving specialists the option of taking better armor and giving them sources of ablative wounds (ammo runts, spanners that cost the same as a regular boy, making the special weapon an optional upgrade so cheap Boyz can be mixed in, allowing wounds to be reassigned to nearby units of Grots, etc.).

Another way is to make them cheaper. I think that Lootas should just be cheaper in general, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get "worse" in certain ways to make them even cheaper. That big Deffgun rig is heavy, so make them have a move of 4" and get -1 Attack in close combat, and drop their points accordingly. They shouldn't be running around or getting into melee anyway, but we have to pay the points for that extra attack in the Boy profile. Maybe it could also provide a 5+ armor save? That would be good for small units of Lootas in cover, but not as much for Lootas in vehicles or protected by a KFF.

leopard wrote:
1-3 very much so
4.. with caution yes
5. gods yes, they look wonderful, please give them a role
6. either this or have units defined by their profile, not equipment, and have a much greater versatility in equipment
7. if they go the way Tyranids have then the different clans should get something that will provide six or so working "themes"

Yes I think if we get a similar deal to the Nids we'll be golden. Here's hoping.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

I would also like new abilities for existing units, both to make them better and add more flavor. They can help out a lot of things with Stratagems, but I'm hoping to see a bunch of units get more fun rules right in their unit entries as there are only so many stratagems to go around*. Some units could probably use additional special rules and stratagems and still need a points drop in addition to that.

Before Jink existed Ork Warbikes had a special invulnerable save that extended to units behind them to represent the clouds of dust and oily smoke. I'd like to see Ork Warbikes become the Ork's version of Venomthropes, where enemies have a -1 to hit them in the shooting phase plus if they have X+ models then the -1 to hit bubble extends to other Ork units wholly within X". This rule would apply to Nob Bikers as well, and Ork characters on warbikes would benefit from the -1 to hit but they wouldn't be able to generate the bubble.

I don't like the Burna Boyz' Pyromaniaks ability. I'm glad that they got some flavor, but I just think it's a bad rule. I'd rather see them get to shoot again if they destroy a unit in the shooting phase, which would make them good at cleaning up small units. They used to have a bonus against vehicles in close combat way back when, so it would be cool if they got a rule kind of like Genestealers where on wound rolls of 6+ in close combat they are AP -4.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some negative flavorful special rules if they adjust the points accordingly. As has been mentioned before, there is a problem with Ork specialists in that we pay a lot of points for a model with one wound and a 6+ armor save. There are a lot of ways that coudl be helped, such as making transports cheaper, giving specialists the option of taking better armor and giving them sources of ablative wounds (ammo runts, spanners that cost the same as a regular boy, making the special weapon an optional upgrade so cheap Boyz can be mixed in, allowing wounds to be reassigned to nearby units of Grots, etc.).

Another way is to make them cheaper. I think that Lootas should just be cheaper in general, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get "worse" in certain ways to make them even cheaper. That big Deffgun rig is heavy, so make them have a move of 4" and get -1 Attack in close combat, and drop their points accordingly. They shouldn't be running around or getting into melee anyway, but we have to pay the points for that extra attack in the Boy profile. Maybe it could also provide a 5+ armor save? That would be good for small units of Lootas in cover, but not as much for Lootas in vehicles or protected by a KFF.

I would love warbikes to deal mortal wounds on the charge. This seems like it makes most fluff sense to me to represent them charging in to combat like maniacs. Evil sunz should be able to leave combat and charge to make them even more potent.

Perhaps the Nob bikers could generate the invulnerable cloud to give them a unique purpose? Although this would overlap with kff biker mek quite a bit.

Totally with you on burna Boyz and lootas. They need either a buff or a points decrease. Grots also need a unique flavourful ability to give them a role outside of screen or objective grabber.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I would love warbikes to deal mortal wounds on the charge. This seems like it makes most fluff sense to me to represent them charging in to combat like maniacs. Evil sunz should be able to leave combat and charge to make them even more potent.

Warbikes used to get to shoot their guns a second time rather than making regular close combat attacks when they charged. It was a pretty powerful ability back in 3rd and 4th.

Bikes simply need to be more durable. They should have some rules that replace Jink and Exhaust Cloud: a flat 5+ invuln or a +1 or even +2 to their cover save if they moved in the previous turn. Otherwise they would always evaporate against anything with an AP-2 or better.

I'd bring 21-22 points bikes with one of those rules.

Well ideally they'd be more durable and more killy. There needs to be a reason to take them instead of Boyz + weirdboy and I think mortal wounds might be a good reason.

D6 damage on Power Klaws would be a good change. Orks rely on getting up close to kill most things since our shooting is too poor, but PKs just can't get the job done, even when you take a lot of them. A Warboss ending up next to a tank used to be bad news for that tank; now, he statistically doesn't even kill a Rhino. In fact a Warboss needs to swing and hit and wound with all 4 of his attacks at 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound and roll above average on his damage in order to kill a Rhino.

To be fair very few things outside of Lords of War will kill a Rhino without substantial buffs. Rhinos are tough in 8th.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ork characters getting access to a better power klaw that does d6 or a flat 3 damage.

Along similar lines I think it would be good if they had Kustom Choppas and Kustom Sluggas that are somewhat better than regular sluggas and choppas and cost 0 or 1 point. That might make them worth taking on Nobz, and Nobz already come with much bigger sluggas and choppas than regular Boyz.

I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.

I'd be interested in a big shoota squad similar to how tankbustas work except for hunting down infantry; I realize that this kinda steps on the feet of lootas, but it would give me somewhere to put the boatload of big shoota boys I've got

5-15 dudes, each with a big shoota, each re-rolling misses against infantry.

 davou wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.

I'd be interested in a big shoota squad similar to how tankbustas work except for hunting down infantry; I realize that this kinda steps on the feet of lootas, but it would give me somewhere to put the boatload of big shoota boys I've got

5-15 dudes, each with a big shoota, each re-rolling misses against infantry.

I feel that, if anything, that it would step less on Loota's toes (who with D2 are more interested in attacking bikes and elite infantry) and more on Flash Gitz. Big Shoota Boyz would pretty much be strictly better than Flash Gitz if we implemented the ideas we proposed since they can fit more bodies together in a trukk/battlewagon on the move without losing accuracy and having longer range. I think it this is indicative of how certain units in our codex that should fill those roles, i.e. Flash Gitz, are either so subpar or require too many other elements in your army to make it work that they don't register as options for us. Flash Gitz gun profile should have stayed as Assault 3 and they should at least have a 4+ save on top of having options to boost their BS like gitfindas. Maybe even reflect their exorbitant wealth by allowing you to purchase a transport exclusively for them at a discount, like 30 points less.

I think we already have flash gitz for that role, which basically are equipped with a big shoota with better AP. Just make snazzguns assault or rapid fire and give them the 4+ save every nob has.

But also warbikes are basically boyz with 2 big shootas. I don't think a unit of 5-15 dudes with big shootas would be a great add, I'd prefer to improve the already existing units which are very similar to a full squad of guys with big shootas.

The AP-1 is very needed, big shootas are basically heavy bolters, they should have the same AP.

Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

I would really like Warbikers to gain some serious Durability. I tried fielding them early in 8th and they were just trash. Anytime they got in range they were so decimated by enemy fire that they ran away or were ineffective. Really they need a 4++ Save and -1AP as well as either 3 more shots or better BS on the shots we have to justify them costing 27ppm. They cost more then TWICE as much as 2 Big Shoota Boyz, and nobody even takes the Big Shoota boyz because they are trash as well.

I think some problems come from the way the Formations are currently set up. Taking a Patrol detachment is a waste of pts since you are not getting CP, so unless you get access to a unique character, or awesome Stratagem. If you got 1 CP for each Patrol Detachment it would be far more plausible to take 2 Patrol Detachments with Orks from other klans than your main one.

As for the Grot rebellion I think that should be fixed by not requiring HQ in Outrider, Spearhead and Vanguard detachments. This would be good for so many factions where you might want to run an entirely vehicle-based list but don't have access to proper support characters or if you just don't want to break theme. It would also be great in themed lists like a Grot rebellion or Canoptek initial defence force, where Characters don't fit. You won't get a Warlord Trait or a Relic without a Character, I think that's bad enough. Forcing characters down player's throats is not much fun.

I made a Codex for the Orks with 6 Klans, 26 Stratagems, 11 Relics and 12 Warlord traits. I don't think speed freaks need a trait of their own as it is more of a playstyle than anything and Evil Sunz already fit well enough. Kaptin Badrukk does not have a klan so I think it's fair to say the pirate Orks won't get a klan, hopefully they'll get a buff of some kind to make up for it.

Find it here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angrier_Initiative#ORKS

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

You clearly put a lot of thought into this and for that I salute you.

Also the stompa is way to overpriced at the moment and defiantly deserves that points reduction (a similar reduction for the Kustom stompa would also be much appreciated)

leopard wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

I agree – I think they definitely serve a purpose, but I think they’re just a little bit too much expensive for that purpose right now.

I noticed that there is a tankbusta bomb on the boyz sprue. I wonder ifn his could could give trukk boyz more purpose. Squad of ten boys with a nob and a bomma? Would just giving one boy in a squad access to those be worth paying for it? Or would it be too strong?

What if Orks got
Ard to Miss - BS may be raised to a 4+ within 6".
Grot Fodder - Orks may fire at a unit in close-combat with Gretchin only, but on a 1 toHit 1 of said Gretchin units takes a wound

I was also thinking an ork shotgun might be fun, maybe as cheap option for burna-boyz, then buff the burna, gives them some fodder and light longer ranged attacks.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
What if Orks got
Ard to Miss - BS may be raised to a 4+ within 6".
Grot Fodder - Orks may fire at a unit in close-combat with Gretchin only, but on a 1 toHit 1 of said Gretchin units takes a wound

I was also thinking an ork shotgun might be fun, maybe as cheap option for burna-boyz, then buff the burna, gives them some fodder and light longer ranged attacks.

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

 Nazrak wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

I agree – I think they definitely serve a purpose, but I think they’re just a little bit too much expensive for that purpose right now.

In this edition the real purpose of gretchins is to be ammo runts for the nobz or gunners crew for scratch built or converted mek gunz

What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

KillerOfMany wrote:
Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

You want a 1 point per model grot with an extra point of toughness for free?

Why not add 'GW has to mail each ork player 10 boxes of boys for free' to that list while you're swinging

 davou wrote:

KillerOfMany wrote:
Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

You want a 1 point per model grot with an extra point of toughness for free?

Why not add 'GW has to mail each ork player 10 boxes of boys for free' to that list while you're swinging

lol

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

12" feels a little unorky for me. I think we still need to be a close-range faction, perhaps 9" to support Da Jump for certain weapons, like...
Shooty Weapons within 9", and any Infantry weapon not marked Heavy within 6", may aim at BS:4+

Perhaps that'd encourage close-ranged tank-bustas with their other wargear options, not sure what'd do to the boy vs elite dynamic.

Glad we're agreed the Gretchin need something in their rules to emphasise their role in ork society lol.
I love my ammo-runts, but I kind of think they shouldn't work the way they do.

I think just put some sort of boomstick on the spru for nobz/elites, maybe as a cheeky D3 pistol. I'd like to see something similar for the grot, like a stray-squig, only on a 1 it backfires.

I'm a simple man, cool plastic and competitive shooting rules is all I want.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

12" feels a little unorky for me. I think we still need to be a close-range faction, perhaps 9" to support Da Jump for certain weapons, like...
Shooty Weapons within 9", and any Infantry weapon not marked Heavy within 6", may aim at BS:4+

Perhaps that'd encourage close-ranged tank-bustas with their other wargear options, not sure what'd do to the boy vs elite dynamic.

Glad we're agreed the Gretchin need something in their rules to emphasise their role in ork society lol.
I love my ammo-runts, but I kind of think they shouldn't work the way they do.

I think just put some sort of boomstick on the spru for nobz/elites, maybe as a cheeky D3 pistol. I'd like to see something similar for the grot, like a stray-squig, only on a 1 it backfires.

I'm a simple man, cool plastic and competitive shooting rules is all I want.

9" won't work for deepstrikes cause you have to place a model FURTHER than 9". So, 9.(0)1

 davou wrote:
What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Give dis boy a fried squig! Amazing idea!
Additionally, for pure flavor, boarding plank should allow trukkboys attacking embarked units inside enemy vehicle within 1", even if ork vehicle advanced that turn. No need to open up that transport with hard hitting shooters, just drive up close with your trusty trukk and storm them!

Okay, how do we make burnaboys viable? It is not only point costs that make them bad, the are squishy and have no abblative wounds. D3 for entire squad makes them too much of hit or miss. To top it off, their special rule (pyromaniacs) is just crap, and also despite being able to cut through vehicle hulls to help meks(lorewise) burnaboys can't do anything against vehicles.

I suggest Pyromaniacs to have something to do with, well, burning infantry and being something useful. Like for every killed model burnaboys inflict an additional hit on targeted unit, as fire and confusion of dying enemies spring orks for even more violence. Burnas are D6 normally and rolled individually; D3 if they are to be used as melee weapon this turn with AP 2 (Which nozzle? From 7th ed). Additionally, when Burnas are used as a melee weapon they deal D3 damage to vehicles, as burnas cut through the hull with makeshift blowtorches. This makes burnaboys good both versus infantry and vehicles, but they need to get upclose. Burnaboys look kinda armored, with all the metal on them, so I'd say that 5+ save would suit them fine. Additionally you can exchange up to 3/6/9 burna boys for spanners, basically normal boys who can take choppas/sluggas or shootas(and obviously spanners have a 6+ save). 2 spanners per 1 burnaboy when exchanged like that. Also having a burnanob with skorcha would be great, but I guess no models = no rules makes this impossible.

I don't know how much should they cost with those changes though or if they'd be OP. They seem useful and a bit more flexible that way though.

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Give dis boy a fried squig! Amazing idea!
Additionally, for pure flavor, boarding plank should allow trukkboys attacking embarked units inside enemy vehicle within 1", even if ork vehicle advanced that turn. No need to open up that transport with hard hitting shooters, just drive up close with your trusty trukk and storm them!

Okay, how do we make burnaboys viable? It is not only point costs that make them bad, the are squishy and have no abblative wounds. D3 for entire squad makes them too much of hit or miss. To top it off, their special rule (pyromaniacs) is just crap, and also despite being able to cut through vehicle hulls to help meks(lorewise) burnaboys can't do anything against vehicles.

I suggest Pyromaniacs to have something to do with, well, burning infantry and being something useful. Like for every killed model burnaboys inflict an additional hit on targeted unit, as fire and confusion of dying enemies spring orks for even more violence. Burnas are D6 normally and rolled individually; D3 if they are to be used as melee weapon this turn with AP 2 (Which nozzle? From 7th ed). Additionally, when Burnas are used as a melee weapon they deal D3 damage to vehicles, as burnas cut through the hull with makeshift blowtorches. This makes burnaboys good both versus infantry and vehicles, but they need to get upclose. Burnaboys look kinda armored, with all the metal on them, so I'd say that 5+ save would suit them fine. Additionally you can exchange up to 3/6/9 burna boys for spanners, basically normal boys who can take choppas/sluggas or shootas(and obviously spanners have a 6+ save). 2 spanners per 1 burnaboy when exchanged like that. Also having a burnanob with skorcha would be great, but I guess no models = no rules makes this impossible.

I don't know how much should they cost with those changes though or if they'd be OP. They seem useful and a bit more flexible that way though.

Yes the boarding plank idea is solid and I could envisage it. It'll probably be a stratagem though.

Would burna Boyz work if they were d6 flamers but a roll of a 1 (unmodified) is a "backfire" where the model has to roll to wound itself and then save? They could have a "flaming grot" for every model that serves as a once per battle reroll and ablative wound for a few pts.

I hope not keen on the Evil sunz klan rule being "auto advance 6", it benefits infantry most of all and doesn't give any particular reason to take bikes and other vehicles.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yes the boarding plank idea is solid and I could envisage it. It'll probably be a stratagem though.

Would burna Boyz work if they were d6 flamers but a roll of a 1 (unmodified) is a "backfire" where the model has to roll to wound itself and then save? They could have a "flaming grot" for every model that serves as a once per battle reroll and ablative wound for a few pts.

I hope not keen on the Evil sunz klan rule being "auto advance 6", it benefits infantry most of all and doesn't give any particular reason to take bikes and other vehicles.

You are making a squishy unit even more squishy though. They have enough troubles getting into effective range (since da jump leaves you just outside of range for flamers. More ablative wounds would be welcomed though.

For evil suns bonus advance should be different depending on unit type.

To have burnaboyz viable I'd just make them 2-3 points cheaper and their burna a regular flamer with D6 shots.

 JawRippa wrote:
You are making a squishy unit even more squishy though. They have enough troubles getting into effective range (since da jump leaves you just outside of range for flamers. More ablative wounds would be welcomed though.

For evil suns bonus advance should be different depending on unit type.

Aye, on Burna Boyz I'm not sure that the solution is to make them tougher. Give them a 4+ save and they have a better save than Flash Gits and equal to Nobs? I dno. If they had d6 flamers I would be a lot more inclined to take them. Perhaps the Pyromaniak rule could be an extra shooting phase if they wipe a unit?

Bonus advance for Evil Sunz is garbage and lazy. If that was the Klan rule I'd be devastated. Why would I take a guaranteed 3" advance when I could roll a possible 4-6"? As I said earlier, if all units have guaranteed advance it benefits infantry more than vehicles and bikes, which makes no sense.

Evil Sunz Klan rule should be similar to White Scars or something like; "no negative modifiers apply when firing weapons after advancing". I could think of better ones but I'd take those. Guaranteed 6" advance sucks.

I still don't see why Orks being unaffected by to hit modifiers isn't a thing. They don't aim in the first place.

With - to hit modifiers being the way they are in 8th, a single -1 to hit modifiers means Orks cannot hit if they advance with assault weapons, or move with heavy. Two -1 to meaning Orks cannot hit at all, there are multiple factions that can get -2 to hit...


Orks need to return to having BS 4+.

Points adjustments for all units with the vehicle keyword, MANz, Nobz, and all Ork chararcters.

I just think unit wise, we need a new MBT and some clan specific units. (I would like some SB boar boyz or BA Ogryns, skarboyz, warpheadz, for example)

Also, there needs to be either points mitigation or something in the 'dex to appreciate that we cannot even fire at some units due to low BS and modifiers. I'm all for being melee heavy, but transports are far too expensive atm. Which, without other heavy options, means Trukks and BW's are always lit up like christmas trees for enemy heavy weapons. (Also due to our walkers being on the slow side as well.)

Basically, I don't want green tide to be our only viable option.

An Actual Englishman wrote:Aye, on Burna Boyz I'm not sure that the solution is to make them tougher. Give them a 4+ save and they have a better save than Flash Gits and equal to Nobs? I dno. If they had d6 flamers I would be a lot more inclined to take them. Perhaps the Pyromaniak rule could be an extra shooting phase if they wipe a unit?

I like the idea - especially since they are in no way guaranteed to wipe a unit even wit d6 S4 shots or that there is another target worth shooting withing flamer range.

Another thing I have suggested in the other thread is making their melee profile do 2 damage. kooaei called them "concentrated boyz" once, and I think this is a good description of what they should do. However, when actually using them, they just feel like regular boyz, minus the PK nob. The AP -2 is not a real advantage, it just mitigates the loss of the choppa and green tide. At 2 damage, they would be better than boyz against some targets, and worse against others. Plus their fluff actually mentions them using their burnas to cut appart vehicles to loot them. Currently they struggle to even scratch vehicles.
Making spannas useful for the first time ever would also do a lot for burnas. At the very least a spanna with slugga and choppa should cost less than a burna boy.

Bonus advance for Evil Sunz is garbage and lazy. If that was the Klan rule I'd be devastated. Why would I take a guaranteed 3" advance when I could roll a possible 4-6"? As I said earlier, if all units have guaranteed advance it benefits infantry more than vehicles and bikes, which makes no sense.

Evil Sunz Klan rule should be similar to White Scars or something like; "no negative modifiers apply when firing weapons after advancing". I could think of better ones but I'd take those. Guaranteed 6" advance sucks.

Firing weapons while advancing would fit Bad Moons more though. In other armies, this is usually giving to "slow and purposeful" style armies.
To keep the advance them, you could do 2d6, pick highest for bikers, trukks and battlewagons only. Planes don't need it and walker
Also note that newer codices (daemons, nids, eldar) usually have their "clan" power defined by three parameters: clan rule, clan stratagem and clan relic. So I wouldn't mind if the clan rule is slightly weaker, if you get a powerful stratagem instead.

blaktoof wrote:Orks need to return to having BS 4+.

At least all that rely on shooting. A relic to boost a single character to BS 3+ would be very nice to make a single SAG great without allowing people to mindlessly spam it to abuse character rules.

I think one of the reasons Trukks are so expensive this edition is because vehicles can lock units in combat. If we had access to cheap trukks we could just lock down all the enemy's units and that seems too powerful.

What if Trukks had a rule that enemy units that are locked in combat with Trukks (and only Trukks) are can fall back with no penalty?

That way we could not abuse cheap Trukks and they could lower the point price.

What do you think?

I haven't thought much in the way of specific point changes really, for me it's mostly been stuff that just felt liek they we missing.

Deffrollas should be carnifex style MW on charge, is is it's just sad, act more like a massage roller than a giant spiky man-pulper.

Nobs should have powa choppas, seriously, power stabbas was a plain stupid idea, we've had nearly a dozen different choppas with power-weapon wires and beads for well over a decade, but our only "stabba" is a single bionic that looke liek a cross between a harpoon, and a sowing machine.

Burna boys should be able top properly cut into tanks like their lore has been for ages, even if it's a only 1 attach with this proifile per turn thing.

Meks shoudl have a "knack" rule so random shot weapons within X could re-roll (only applies to burnas/lootas if the mek is joined to the unit as it represents pre-battle tinkering), suddenly Meks serve a role among lootas, besides soaking bullets for the ones with worthwhile guns.

As for klan rules, I've been going more for feel than balance but here goes:

Deffskulls: "Jest kick it right ere' "Same a Mek's "knack" make meks repiar better, cause a deffskull's always gotta keep his getaway vehicle in good repair.

Blood axes: "Sneaky Gitz" The vanilla +1 cover, maybe a better ambush for their Komandoes

Bad moons: "More teef dan sesne" I like the idea of Extra BS, not because of training but because they just have more bullets to shoot

Goff: "We'z da best" Larger LD aura, heck maybe I'd just say larger Auras overall.

Snakebites: "Tuff as old boots" 6++ for infantry and non-vehicles.

Evil suns: "Red unz go fasta", vehicles advance 6', infantry may disembark after a move (though not charge, unless equipped with a boarding plank)

I really like the idea of the boading plank making a vehicle act like classic Open topped.

Also the Grabbin' klaw should lock stuff in CC with a vehicle equipped with one, I'd even add a Harpoon stule gun to buggies for the same effect, and to echo classic Gorkamaorka.

 Jidmah wrote:
Firing weapons while advancing would fit Bad Moons more though. In other armies, this is usually giving to "slow and purposeful" style armies.
To keep the advance them, you could do 2d6, pick highest for bikers, trukks and battlewagons only. Planes don't need it and walker
Also note that newer codices (daemons, nids, eldar) usually have their "clan" power defined by three parameters: clan rule, clan stratagem and clan relic. So I wouldn't mind if the clan rule is slightly weaker, if you get a powerful stratagem instead.

Glad you like the Burna idea

I really don't want an advance mechanic for Evil Sunz but I think my perception is biased because I can't see Bikes being viable in any setting, as they are now. Perhaps if bikes were made better the advance rule might not be as lame. As I said way earlier, my ideal would be to give Evil Sunz a 'retreat from combat and re-engage for free' rule then give bikes a way to generate mortal wounds on a charge. I mean; "roll 2d6 and pick highest" is still weaker than "auto 6" advance" that other armies have as their base Bike rule. It would also be one of the only Chapter tactic like rules that only effects bikes, trukks and battlewagons while others get them for all units? Seems weak.

It is possible that we get a +1 cover save for all units that advanced ala that Nid hive fleet and the fluff reason would be all the smoke and exhaust fumes?

I've been trying to come up with orky buffs to shooting that don't betray the flavour of the faction.

One idea I was discussing with a friend was a "stray bullet" stratagem or ability. Maybe something like you can re-roll failed hits, and on a 6 they hit the nearest unit (friend or foe) within 6" of the target. Not 100% certain on how the mechanics would be but the idea is that they're more likely to hit SOMETHING, just not the right thing.

Another idea was to be able to target enemy units while they are in melee with your own units, but for each 1 you roll your unit takes a mortal wound or something of the sort. I figured from a flavour perspective you could have grots in melee with an enemy unit as your boyz indiscriminately shoot into the pit.

I haven't read through the thread fully but I saw some talk about shotguns, I think it'd be cool if kommandos could take shotguns aka speshul shootas in place of a slugga and choppa. I saw a profile for an imperial unit with a shotgun that gave it +1 strength when targeting a unit within half the shotguns range. I reckon a sneaky git would take delight in getting the drop on someone with their speshul shoota.

We need a compiled list of changes if we want any chance of GW actually taking notes. This means less wishlisting a bit more on practical side. This means working with current model range. No model = no rules. Stick to what is listed in the index.

- Try to deviate from overzealous point decrease for bad units. It is usually a tempting simple, yet flawed solution. Also we have enough models to paint as it is.
- Remember not to accidentally buff already good and dominant greentide of boys.
- Ork shooting should be average to bad, but never worthless. Remember that more than half of our codex consists of shooty units!
- Extra points if you manage to synergise your idea with an idea of other forum member.

A lot of times I’ve seen “X thing could be viable if only we had viable transports”. Let’s start with humble trukk and battle wagon, what exactly makes them bad and how do we fix this?

I think the only bad thing about the trukk is the price, but as I wrote above, I think that cheap trukks can be abused because they are able to lock enemy units in combat. So if they had some kind of debuff that made them unable to do that, then I think they could lower the price.

 JawRippa wrote:
We need a compiled list of changes if we want any chance of GW actually taking notes. This means less wishlisting a bit more on practical side. This means working with current model range. No model = no rules. Stick to what is listed in the index.

- Try to deviate from overzealous point decrease for bad units. It is usually a tempting simple, yet flawed solution. Also we have enough models to paint as it is.

I wouldn't bother to fine-tune points on weapons or models at all. The only good way to decide whether something should cost 12 points or 10 points is doing play testing in the context of all changes made. Giving a ballpark figure should be enough to point GW in the right direction.
It's not like they will take whatever point values you send them and print them anyways - if they actually do play testing the accumulated point reductions might enable some unforeseen combinations that might wreck havoc on game balance (assault cannon razorbacks anyone?).

- Remember not to accidentally buff already good and dominant greentide of boys.

Klan rules are going to do that no matter what. There is also two things to consider:
- Even green tides are just barely beating competitive lists from other armies
- Any other good option that is taken reduces the number of boyz

- Ork shooting should be average to bad, but never worthless. Remember that more than half of our codex consists of shooty units!

Please don't fall for this fallacy. In editions previous to the last codex orks have always been as good at shooting per points spent as space marines or guardsmen - with the slight difference that the weapons used by orks are inferiors, usually sporting less range, less AP, less strength or drawbacks compared to their imperial counterparts.
So a unit of lootaz put out the same shooting as IG heavy weapon teams for the same points and a unit of shoota boyz with three rokkits would shoot as well as a unit of tactical bolter marines with a missile launcher,
We need to get back to this point.

A lot of times I’ve seen “X thing could be viable if only we had viable transports”. Let’s start with humble trukk and battle wagon, what exactly makes them bad and how do we fix this?

For starters, currently battlewagon and trukk are fulfilling the same role. So no matter which one you improve, the other one will always lose out, as both are tough transports moving at 12". When you compare this to rhino and land raider, they have completely different roles and neither makes the other obsolete.
In past editions, the trukk was the more fragile, but faster transport, and the battlewagon the slower, but harder to kill one.
Kommandos work reasonably well for 9 points per model, so I guess the limit for a unit like boyz doing well is somewhere around 10-11 points, leaving us with maximum 4-5 points per model to spend on transports.

When playing BW as transports, their durability feels about right, so I would keep them the way they are and just drop their points.
Their problem is that a decent battlewagon list needs to be able to field 3 BW at 1500 and 4 at 2000, with points left to spend on support units. Otherwise the passengers you deliver into the enemy lines are to few and too weak to have an impact. In pretty much any game I played in 8th, there was one point where I wished I had either more battlewagons or support for my battlewagons.
Which basically means a battlewagon without upgrades needs to be somewhere between 80 and 100 points to be competitive. Maybe make 'ard case cost points (around 10) so spamming T8 vehicles isn't too easy.
To emphasize on the slow but reliable part, drop their speed to 10", to justify the massive point drop for such a tough vehicle. It won't have massive impact on their game play, but might make a difference against other fast armies.

Trukks, on the other hand need their speed back, and some of their durability taken away. Drop their wound count to 8 and give them a rule allowing them to move very fast once per game or in exchange for a mortal wound to self. Maybe a stratagem for advances like we have seen with nids or daemons?
At 3 points per model transported (trukk boyz are weaker than kommandoz), it should be at 36+big shoota+wrecking ball. I'd even go as far and make the wrecking ball mandatory, to keep the minimum cost above broken. Also, more wrecking balls everywhere.

 Jidmah wrote:

...

Very solid post!
I wanted to add a few things while making my position a bit more clear:

- By saying that greentide is dominating and strong I meant dominating in our own index. So we should try to always keep that in mind.

- We do have 2 attacks in base profile, so it is clear that GW designed us as melee army at core. I’m not saying that ork’s shooting should be bad, just some units should be inefficient at it, like slugga boys or grots with pistols. I always imagined shooty units to be a support for boys, rather than direct hitting force. However I’d be happy if GW dropped an attack for designated shooty squads and made them much better at their job. Like flashgits or lootas. You know, carrying around heavy weapons would probably make you worse in melee but pay off during shooting phase). Those guys should have way more dakka(lootas) or range(gits).
Actually a lot could probably be improved if all orky blasts stopped being d6 hits at 5+(hitting once or not at all on average) and became a D3 autohits. Orks wildly cover area in blasts, so they will hit you , but with a stray blast rather than focused. So it is more reliable, but has less damage potential

- I like you suggestions about trukk and wagon. Trukk should be faster. However, maybe they could be improved without needing to spam them? Like ramshackle being global rule for orky vehicles and being a 4+ that degrades by 1 whenever used and gets refreshed by end of turn. Or maybe it could be a flat 5+. 6+ is just uninspiring.

 JawRippa wrote:
- We do have 2 attacks in base profile, so it is clear that GW designed us as melee army at core. I’m not saying that ork’s shooting should be bad, just some units should be inefficient at it, like slugga boys or grots with pistols. I always imagined shooty units to be a support for boys, rather than direct hitting force. However I’d be happy if GW dropped an attack for designated shooty squads and made them much better at their job. Like flashgits or lootas. You know, carrying around heavy weapons would probably make you worse in melee but pay off during shooting phase). Those guys should have way more dakka(lootas) or range(gits).
Actually a lot could probably be improved if all orky blasts stopped being d6 hits at 5+(hitting once or not at all on average) and became a D3 autohits. Orks wildly cover area in blasts, so they will hit you , but with a stray blast rather than focused. So it is more reliable, but has less damage potential

Not any more than an army of World Eaters are designed to be a shooting army because khorne berzerkers have BS 3+.
It's simply the ork's baseline, like all basic marines, eldar, humans, tau and necrons have the same base line. Shooting units need to be able to shoot, and melee units need to be able to melee, no matter what their statline looks like.
Rest assured, 6+ armor, slow movement and BS 5+ will even out that one attack we have over space marines.

More attacks are not an advantage for a unit that never wants to be in combat, so there is no need to take it away. Flash gits and lootas will stay out of combat as long as their gun is more powerful than their fist.

- I like you suggestions about trukk and wagon. Trukk should be faster. However, maybe they could be improved without needing to spam them? Like ramshackle being global rule for orky vehicles and being a 4+ that degrades by 1 whenever used and gets refreshed by end of turn. Or maybe it could be a flat 5+. 6+ is just uninspiring.

Trukks need to become cheaper because they don't transport enough models. The entire army has always worked that way - it's not only trukks dying too fast, it's also the number of models they are delivering. Three trukks deliver about as many boyz as a single jump, which we all know is nice, but not enough to make a huge impact. So if you wanted the same amount boyz in your speed freaks list as in a footslogging list with 3 mobz of boyz, you would have to bring 8 units of trukk boyz. Therefore trukks must be a cheap unit.
The second reason is that the current super-tough trukk is making open topped battlewagons obsolete. There is absolutely no reason to not field two trukks instead of one open-topped battlewagon in the index.

IMO we should aim to make all the archetypes from the past three editions viable again, minus the skew lists - kan wall, green tide, foot sloggers (2-3 units of boyz+toys), battlewagon bash, kult of speed (trukks,warbikes,koptas, etc), pure biker armies, dread mobs, deff wing (MANz) and those I forgot.

Therefore, we shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel, but try to fix the things that the transition to 8th broke, while keeping that stuff that it did well.

I think Jidmah is hinting at it but the biggest problem with our vehicles, for me, is that a Weirdboy + Da Jump is a much better and more cost effective solution.

We simply have a better transport mechanic.

For that reason I wouldn't make Trukks or Battlewagons much cheaper because I still think Da Jump will beat them on price, I would make them more killy. Since our vehicles aren't going to do anything in shooting I think it's only fair that they should be much better in melee. The reasoning is that at the end of the day it's an Ork driving and any Ork would go out of their way to run enemies over.

Give the vehicles a purpose that we currently need filling - in my mind they would be very useful as Anti Armour specialists. Let them do bonus damage or have bonus to hit rolls against vehicles. Anything.

I really don't think that cutting the price would fix them as I can't see them ever competing with Weirdboy + Da Jump in that regard.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think Jidmah is hinting at it but the biggest problem with our vehicles, for me, is that a Weirdboy + Da Jump is a much better and more cost effective solution.

We simply have a better transport mechanic.

For that reason I wouldn't make Trukks or Battlewagons much cheaper because I still think Da Jump will beat them on price, I would make them more killy. Since our vehicles aren't going to do anything in shooting I think it's only fair that they should be much better in melee. The reasoning is that at the end of the day it's an Ork driving and any Ork would go out of their way to run enemies over.

Give the vehicles a purpose that we currently need filling - in my mind they would be very useful as Anti Armour specialists. Let them do bonus damage or have bonus to hit rolls against vehicles. Anything.

I really don't think that cutting the price would fix them as I can't see them ever competing with Weirdboy + Da Jump in that regard.

There are some units that suffer a lot if they're fielded as footsloggers, I think about tankbustas or meganobz mostly. They all desperately need a transport not only to reach combat or range quickly but also to have some protection against shooting. Nobz can have runts so they laugh at the anti tank but meganobz don't. Tankbustas are always going to be deleted in a single turn of mediocre shooting without a transport. And jumping shooty units like bustas or flash gitz isn't efficient at all since those units don't have the strenght to get their points back as they can't really kill anything valuable but they'd be wiped out in the subsequent turn without much effort.

Da jump is great because 30-40 boyz can cause great pressure to the opponent even if they fail the charge, while other units can be handled quite easily. Nobz and meganobz can be jumped as well but if the opponent has some screeners they won't do much while bustas and gitz are too expensive and not that killy to act as suicide units. Keep also in mind that we can only teleport one unit per turn.

Transports are very needed for the orks, only boyz and maybe a full unit of 10 nobz plus 10 ammo runts really want to be jumped.

Don't jump nobz, believe me I've tried.

Standing within rapid fire range of every weapon available to the enemy is not a good thing for a unit of nobz.

The real problem with our transports is that when you combine ere we go with the waaagh-aura, then ordinary running boyz has more than 50% chance of charging something 26 inches away on their second turn. When you are pretty much guaranteed to get second-turn charges with boyz on foot, then there is very little incentive to pay a 7ppm transport tax. It is not like a trukk allows us to charge on our first turn anyway.

 Blackie wrote:
There are some units that suffer a lot if they're fielded as footsloggers, I think about tankbustas or meganobz mostly. They all desperately need a transport not only to reach combat or range quickly but also to have some protection against shooting. Nobz can have runts so they laugh at the anti tank but meganobz don't. Tankbustas are always going to be deleted in a single turn of mediocre shooting without a transport. And jumping shooty units like bustas or flash gitz isn't efficient at all since those units don't have the strenght to get their points back as they can't really kill anything valuable but they'd be wiped out in the subsequent turn without much effort.

Da jump is great because 30-40 boyz can cause great pressure to the opponent even if they fail the charge, while other units can be handled quite easily. Nobz and meganobz can be jumped as well but if the opponent has some screeners they won't do much while bustas and gitz are too expensive and not that killy to act as suicide units. Keep also in mind that we can only teleport one unit per turn.

Transports are very needed for the orks, only boyz and maybe a full unit of 10 nobz plus 10 ammo runts really want to be jumped.

The solution to units that are dependent on transports is to make them better, not make their mandatory transport better. No unit should *have* to take a transport to be viable. It makes no sense.

I believe we've had this discussion on the general Ork tactica thread before regarding Trukks, Meganobz and Tank Bustas and the consensus was that we needed a new transport that was somewhere in between a Trukk and a Battlewagon to service those more expensive and precious units.

There is no reason Meganobz shouldn't be able to take Ammo Runts. Or innately Deep Strike, like every other TEQ.

Tank Bustas are far too weak for me, their durability needs a hike or they need a serious decrease in price. A unit that has to take a transport to be viable is a poor unit indeed.

Transports should add to the army, not be requirements for other things to work.

I take your points on Da Jump, it is not without it's flaws and it doesn't suit every unit equally.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think Jidmah is hinting at it but the biggest problem with our vehicles, for me, is that a Weirdboy + Da Jump is a much better and more cost effective solution.

We simply have a better transport mechanic.

For that reason I wouldn't make Trukks or Battlewagons much cheaper because I still think Da Jump will beat them on price, I would make them more killy. Since our vehicles aren't going to do anything in shooting I think it's only fair that they should be much better in melee. The reasoning is that at the end of the day it's an Ork driving and any Ork would go out of their way to run enemies over.

Give the vehicles a purpose that we currently need filling - in my mind they would be very useful as Anti Armour specialists. Let them do bonus damage or have bonus to hit rolls against vehicles. Anything.

I really don't think that cutting the price would fix them as I can't see them ever competing with Weirdboy + Da Jump in that regard.

Good point. The deff rolla was our primary source of anti-tank in 5th edition, and I was pretty disappointed when it failed to do as much as scratch the paint of a land speeder in my first game of 8th.

Upping the deffrolla's damage to 3 and maybe reduce the to hit bonus would return it to its former glory of crunching any vehicle that doesn't get out of the way fast enough. Same for the grabbin' klaw, I don't see a reason to use it in its current state.

In addition to what Blackie said, the main advantage transports have over da jump is being able to carry more than one unit per turn across the table, which is most important when bringing characters.

A unit of boyz in a deff rolla battlewagon are 313 points right now, if you add two HQs for a battalion (KFF mek, relic warboss), you're spending more than half your points for what's essentially two mobs of footslogging boyz.
At 2000 points, you usually lose two of those battlewagons before getting to charge, leaving you with a single one of your 180 point models by turn 3.
An army should be able to field four or even five wagons, or three wagons and four trukks or two wagons, two nauts, two trukks - you get the idea. In that case you would have roughly half your vehicles left to actually draw overwatch, contest objectives and smack some stuff with their wreckin' balls.

As I've said previously, the battlewagon does transporting and protecting units pretty well, you just end up with way to little models on the table.
Just for comparison, the list I used to play in 5th and 6th at 2000 points looked somewhat like this:

BW1 : 20x boyz, PK nob
BW2: 20x boyz, PK nob
BW3: 15x Burna boyz + Thrakka
BW4: 5x Nobz with banner and 3 PKs + KFF mek
Trukk: 12 boyz
10 Gretchin
15 Lootaz
3 koptaz
All wagons with deff rollas and a single big shoota, of course.

Fielding such a list today puts you at about 2500 points - even though almost all units in the list have gotten weaker since then. It for sure doesn't feel like playing 2500 points when your opponent can field five baneblades for the same and still has enough left to buy a bunch of guys to hold the line.

So, we need more toughness for BW alongside major anti-vehicle potential up close. Grabbing claw should immobilize stuff or do something I’m that role, deffrolla should deal some heavy damage on charge. Wrecking ball could use some beefing up too. If BW had a 5+ ramshackle, would it be beefy enough?

What if trukks has more passanger spots, say 15 and were faster for the same price? So BW = to slam into stuff while delivering small units into action. Trukks = pure transporters and occasional light vehicle hunting with ball.

 JawRippa wrote:
So, we need more toughness for BW alongside major anti-vehicle potential up close. Grabbing claw should immobilize stuff or do something I’m that role, deffrolla should deal some heavy damage on charge. Wrecking ball could use some beefing up too. If BW had a 5+ ramshackle, would it be beefy enough?

What if trukks has more passanger spots, say 15 and were faster for the same price? So BW = to slam into stuff while delivering small units into action. Trukks = pure transporters and occasional light vehicle hunting with ball.

I like the cut of your jib.

Don't forget that Trukks should have the option to take Boarding Planks (not sure if Bwagons should?) that allow disembarking/charging after a move.

We locking in (assuming) that we're gonna get a 1CP auto explode vehicle stratagem? Surely right?

What's the next thing you want to look at Rippa?

So, here is my attempt at making vehicles beefier and better in melee

- Trukk has 15 transport capacity, 8 wounds and moves 14’’. Trukk has ramshackle of 6+ and Batllewagon has ramshackle of 5+.
- ‘Ard case - lose open topped, +1T, ramshackle improves by 1.
- Red paint - you may reroll advancing results.
- Big red button - once per game you may double the result of your advance and charge after advancing. Suffer D3 mortal wounds after completing the charge.
- Grabbin’ Klaw - STR usr AP3 D1, +1 to hit. Successful wound against model with 6 or more wound stat in profile makes target unable to fall back until your next turn. Up to 3 attacks can be made with this weapon.
- Wrecking ball (swing): add 2 strength and +1 to hit on charge. STR Usr AP3 D3
Wrecking ball (flail): +1 to hit on charge and every time you attack with this weapon, make 3 attacks instead. STR4 AP1 D1
- Spiky ram - after completing a charge choose enemy unit in base contact, it suffers X STR3 AP- hits, where X is result on 2D6 during charge.
- Reinforced ram - vehicle is not slowed by terrain on charge. Additionally after charging against a model with more than 5 wounds, you may choose to roll off, both you and opponent add Toughness to result while you get +2 for reinforced ram. Loser suffers D3 mortal wounds.
- Boarding plank - units may disembark and charge after vehicle has moved, unless it has advanced.[/list]

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Don't forget that Trukks should have the option to take Boarding Planks (not sure if Bwagons should?) that allow disembarking/charging after a move.

Boarding planks are only on the trukk sprue, BW doesn't have any bits for it, so the probably won't have the options. Als note that BW kits don't have wreckin' balls or rokkits.

Available from the bw kit, including the upgrade sprue:
1 looba
1 killkannon or kannon or zzap gun
4 big shootas
1 grabbin' klaw
reinforced ram
deff rolla
repair grot
'ardcase
'eavy armor

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Don't forget that Trukks should have the option to take Boarding Planks (not sure if Bwagons should?) that allow disembarking/charging after a move.

Boarding planks are only on the trukk sprue, BW doesn't have any bits for it, so the probably won't have the options. Als note that BW kits don't have wreckin' balls or rokkits.

Available from the bw kit, including the upgrade sprue:
1 looba
1 killkannon or kannon or zzap gun
4 big shootas
1 grabbin' klaw
reinforced ram
deff rolla
repair grot
'ardcase
'eavy armor

What is `eavy armor for? Battlewagon can take wreckin` ball according to index.

 JawRippa wrote:
So, here is my attempt at making vehicles beefier and better in melee

- Trukk has 15 transport capacity, 8 wounds and moves 14’’. Trukk has ramshackle of 6+ and Batllewagon has ramshackle of 5+.
- ‘Ard case - lose open topped, +1T, ramshackle improves by 1.
- Red paint - you may reroll advancing results.
- Big red button - once per game you may double the result of your advance and charge after advancing. Suffer D3 mortal wounds after completing the charge.
- Boarding plank - units may disembark and charge after vehicle has moved, unless it has advanced.[/list]

Me likes.
Though I would prefer speed no longer to be connected to painting all vehicles red, but that's not an actual rules issue.

- Grabbin’ Klaw - STR usr AP3 D1, +1 to hit. Successful wound against model with 6 or more wound stat in profile makes target unable to fall back until your next turn. Up to 3 attacks can be made with this weapon.

Make the "up to X attacks" go away. Other codices (for example tail weapons for nids) just made those kind of weapons do additional attacks. In that case there would be no competition between deffrolla, klaw and wrecking ball. Make BW 4 attacks base (degrades to 3 and, 2) and have the klaw add two or three attacks.

- Wrecking ball (swing): add 2 strength and +1 to hit on charge. STR Usr AP3 D3
Wrecking ball (flail): +1 to hit on charge and every time you attack with this weapon, make 3 attacks instead. STR4 AP1 D1

If all weapons add to hit, just make trukks and BWs WS 4+?
Wrecking ball could also just use the rules of flails found on DG or DA terminators - STR User+2, AP-2, Damage 2, d3 hit rolls per attack and overkill damage is not lost. This would archive what your two profiles try to archive: Being good against both hordes and vehicles, and it would be consistent with other rules.

- Spiky ram - after completing a charge choose enemy unit in base contact, it suffers X STR3 AP- hits, where X is result on 2D6 during charge.

That's what a seventh edition rule would look like. 8th edition would just do a mortal wound on a 4+ (see carnifex rules).
There is also no model support for spiky ram.

- Reinforced ram - vehicle is not slowed by terrain on charge. Additionally after charging against a model with more than 5 wounds, you may choose to roll off, both you and opponent add Toughness to result while you get +2 for reinforced ram. Loser suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Same as above, rule is just too complex. Just roll 3 dice and get a mortal wound on a 5+. Add +1 to roll if charging a vehicle or monster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JawRippa wrote:
What is `eavy armor for? Battlewagon can take wreckin` ball according to index.

It used to degrade stunned results on the damage table to shaken, essentially allowing it to continue moving no matter what happened. Might translate to messing with the degrading table like seen in the AM codex (vehicle counts as having twice as many wounds for degrading).

Neither the Battlewagon sprue nor the upgrade sprue has wreckin' balls, and there is no defined place to put it on a battlewagon. It is pretty likely that this option will get taken away in the codex - which currently means nothing, since you still have permission to use wargear legal in the index, but that might change. GW will probably not consider such wargear in their codex design.

 Jidmah wrote:

If all weapons add to hit, just make trukks and BWs WS 4+?

The idea is that if you want a trukk to be good in melee, then you have to cash-in for Wrecking ball, otherwise trukk has WS5+ and can barely scratch anything. +1 to hit on ball should probably be a constant thing. Also I agree that those weapons should just give extra attacks, not to compete with each other. I guess a deffrolla could be exception.

 Jidmah wrote:

Wrecking ball could also just use the rules of flails found on DG or DA terminators - STR User+2, AP-2, Damage 2, d3 hit rolls per attack and overkill damage is not lost. This would archive what your two profiles try to archive: Being good against both hordes and vehicles, and it would be consistent with other rules.

Yeah, I guess it is simpler just to have 1 generalistic profile. Although I was thinking about kight melee attacks - either hit less but harder or more, but weaker.

 Jidmah wrote:

That's what a seventh edition rule would look like. 8th edition would just do a mortal wound on a 4+ (see carnifex rules).
There is also no model support for spiky ram.

Aw. Aren't there some generic spike plates on sides of trukk/BW? Idea behind spiky ram was that it is good vs light infantry, but bad vs anything else.

 Jidmah wrote:

Same as above, rule is just too complex. Just roll 3 dice and get a mortal wound on a 5+. Add +1 to roll if charging a vehicle or monster.

Haha, yeah, I was having a 7th ed flashbacks. Your version is x10 times better in terms of simplicity. It sorta makes spiky ram absolete I guess.

There are certainly variations of rams in the Trukk kit. I'd say there's model support for this.

What needs fixing next?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
There are certainly variations of rams in the Trukk kit. I'd say there's model support for this.

What needs fixing next?

Probably basic shooting comes next. It has already been mentioned that we suffer from -To Hit modifiers, but hopefully either stratagem or army wide rule will fix it. Basic guns like big shootas and rokkit launchers seem to be a trap wargear, as they basically achieve nothing and just waste points. Also orks benefit from twin-linked the least nowadays (not that it should change, just an observation to keep in mind). Big shootas on our vehicles literally serve as a tax while achieving next to nothing. Normal shootas are fine though.

Thing is - orks don't throw out nearly as much dakka as you'd expect with special weapons, and it barely hits. So, what if both Rokkit launcha and Big shoota could switch between Assault and Rapid? So if you want to just dakka stuff you get to half of weapon's range and refrain from advancing. (so 6 shots per Big Shoota and 2 shots per Rokkit launcha). Suddenly ork gunlines become a thing, yet I don't think they'd be able to outshoot a "proper" shooty race gunline and twin-linked has potential to be really dangerous(imagine 12 bs shots per buggy). The only I fear I have is that jumped Tankbustas may become too good at busting vehicles and make weirdboy even more mandatory in general.
Edit: this change alongside a proper price ofc

I think big meks should have an aura that grants failed hits on 1s in the shooting phase. A stock special rule, not an upgrade. It won't change the games but it surely helps with KMKs (and a SAG may be worthy if the big mek also buffs the artillery) and kanz with KMBs, they won't kill themselves anymore. But other kanz and artillery could benefit as well, a free re-roll on BS4+ units IMHO is something.

Then I'd like a stratagem that allows units to move twice, especially the fast ones. It would fit the speed freaks theme quite well. And eventually another stratagem that allows to fight twice in the same assault phase, it could be really nasty.

75% of the index should get points reductions, this is what I mostly want in order to be able to field a good amount of toys, not only tons of boyz.

 JawRippa wrote:
Probably basic shooting comes next. It has already been mentioned that we suffer from -To Hit modifiers, but hopefully either stratagem or army wide rule will fix it. Basic guns like big shootas and rokkit launchers seem to be a trap wargear, as they basically achieve nothing and just waste points. Also orks benefit from twin-linked the least nowadays (not that it should change, just an observation to keep in mind). Big shootas on our vehicles literally serve as a tax while achieving next to nothing. Normal shootas are fine though.

Thing is - orks don't throw out nearly as much dakka as you'd expect with special weapons, and it barely hits. So, what if both Rokkit launcha and Big shoota could switch between Assault and Rapid? So if you want to just dakka stuff you get to half of weapon's range and refrain from advancing. (so 6 shots per Big Shoota and 2 shots per Rokkit launcha). Suddenly ork gunlines become a thing, yet I don't think they'd be able to outshoot a "proper" shooty race gunline and twin-linked has potential to be really dangerous(imagine 12 bs shots per buggy). The only I fear I have is that jumped Tankbustas may become too good at busting vehicles and make weirdboy even more mandatory in general.
Edit: this change alongside a proper price ofc

So army-wide rule that our shooting modifier can never go above 6+ to hit? Is that too powerful? Seems fitting to me.

Re Big Shootas, Rokkits and the like, I believe their shooting output should be doubled. Sounds ridiculous I know but lets be honest, we just don't have the dakka that we used to and if we advance, which we tend to do all the time (assuming no other modifiers) we are cutting our successful hits in half anyway.

Rokkits should be Assault 2 or Rapid Fire 2 and 2 damage a pop. Tank Bustas are easy to fix - just remove the innate reroll against vehicles. Perhaps change it to reroll 1s to hit against vehicles (so they have some advantage over the Rokkit Boy).

Big Shootas should be Assault 6 or Rapid Fire 3.

Twin weapons of those categories should increase in shots accordingly.

I agree that Shootas are fine where they are.

Kustom Shootas should be Rapid Fire 3 or make them 1 pt or give them AP.

We also lack AP on our ranged weaponry generally.
I'd like to see Big Shootas have an extra -AP and Dakkaguns also get -1 AP.

Double the shots of the SAG if the Big Mek doesn't move and give him a reroll 1s to hit aura might make them more viable.

I don't use many of the Mek's shooty weapons so I'm not sure how to improve them or whether they need anything more than a points reduction?

Skorchas and Burnas should probably be left for another discussion.

All of shooting might be too big. Maybe start smaller with just big shootas and rokkits?

Why nerfing the bustas by removing their re-roll against vehicles? It's the only thing they have. Without that re-roll they'd be shelved forever. I'd even make them 3-4 ppm cheaper since they're currently overcosted.

Kustom shootas should be 2pts, they're orks storm bolters after all.

 Blackie wrote:
Why nerfing the bustas by removing their re-roll against vehicles? It's the only thing they have. Without that re-roll they'd be shelved forever. I'd even make them 3-4 ppm cheaper since they're currently overcosted.

Kustom shootas should be 2pts, they're orks storm bolters after all.

I'm only suggesting they lose that if they get a Rokkit Launcha that fires twice lol.

I'd tweak the "ramshackle" rule a bit, give a 4+ save against multiple wounds down to 1, noted as "didn't hit anything that mattered"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
So army-wide rule that our shooting modifier can never go above 6+ to hit? Is that too powerful? Seems fitting to me.

I agree. At -1 we have lost half our shooting already and -2 to hit usually has at least some opportunity cost attached to it, so an allaitoc player wouldn't need to advance with his tanks to get maximum protection, an ultramarine player could buff another unit with tigurius, etc.

Re Big Shootas, Rokkits and the like, I believe their shooting output should be doubled. Sounds ridiculous I know but lets be honest, we just don't have the dakka that we used to and if we advance, which we tend to do all the time (assuming no other modifiers) we are cutting our successful hits in half anyway.

Rokkits should be Assault 2 or Rapid Fire 2 and 2 damage a pop. Tank Bustas are easy to fix - just remove the innate reroll against vehicles. Perhaps change it to reroll 1s to hit against vehicles (so they have some advantage over the Rokkit Boy).

I would just exclude tank bustaz from this discussion. They have their whole own set of problems that need to be addressed separately - their survivability, the viability of tank hammers and rokkit pistols in comparison to rokkits and the reliance on transports.
One option would be to make tank bustas+rokkits slightly more expensive (assuming rokkits get better), while making tank hammers and rokkit pistols cheaper.

I like the idea of just making rokkits rapid fire though - especially on koptas and buggies it would provide incentive to drive really close to an enemy to get more shots in, kind of like a multi-melta. You usually don't want -1 to hit on your anti-tank weapons, so assault is kind of wasted on rokkits anyways.
In general would agree that "more dakka" is definitely what most units need.

There are three kinds of rokkit units though - IMO each should get a different treatment:
- units that just take rokkits (or combi-rokkits) to have some shooting in addition to whatever they were doing in the first place: boyz, kommandoz, nobz, MANz, trukks, nauts, battlewagons and characters. I think rokkits are good as they are for those units, assuming they would get cheap enough.
- units whose primary role is getting where they are needed and shooting stuff with rokkits: buggies, wartrakks, koptas. They used to be super fragile, fast and cheap platforms for rokkits so we could spam them to fulfill our anti-tank needs. Durability and points on all of those has doubled, and so should their rokkits. Make rokkits racks (buggies) and kopta rokkits assault 4 (rapid fire 4?) and they are back in the game. As for model support, AOBR koptas have 4 rokkits anyways and the only official rokkit buggy ever made has 5.
- walkers: Kanz and deff dreads both have the options to take rokkits, but either their BS is too low for those rokkits to matter or it's just one rokkit missing half of the time on an expensive chassis. The rokkit bit shows them as having three rokkits, why not give them assault 3 rokkits? Deciding between six rokkits and two extra attacks is a non-trivial decision even on a "I'm dead by turn 2" deff dread and kanz with three shots of rokkits each would be proper competition to a KMK. The new "tripple rokkit walker arm" would have to get proper point costs, of course.

The only issue I could see with this that a metric ton of BS 5+ missiles might be very swingy - hot dice could result in a terrifying amount of damage done in one turn if you hit way above average amount of shots. But then again, so could three lascannons doing 6 damage each.

Big Shootas should be Assault 6 or Rapid Fire 3.

Twin weapons of those categories should increase in shots accordingly.

I agree that Shootas are fine where they are.

Kustom Shootas should be Rapid Fire 3 or make them 1 pt or give them AP.

We also lack AP on our ranged weaponry generally.
I'd like to see Big Shootas have an extra -AP and Dakkaguns also get -1 AP.

Mathhammer time! The prefered targets for all kind of shootas should be enemy infantry, so I'll save my self the trouble to compare which is less inefficient at killing land raiders.
A shoota kills .11 MEQ and .30 GEQ, a kustom shoota twice that, obviously.
A big shoota or dakka gun kills .22 MEQ and .44 GEQ
So, a kustom shoota is actually a better gun than a big shoota currently.

Big shootas are something should want to put everywhere and fire while running.
However, since the big shoota is not good at killing anything, even when doubling the amount of shots, there is no advantage of taking the big shoota over just more shoota boyz, unless it's so cheap it becomes a no-brainer option.
So, I'll be the devil's advocate and actually suggest just that: make big shootas free. Even if you give one to every tenth boy, put four on each of your battlewagons and outfit a units of buggies with them... you need 9 to kill a single primaris marine per turn.
Don't get me wrong - making them AP-1 would also be great (heavy bolters are great guns), I just wanted to provide an alternative.

Next up kustom shoota, is an upgrade for characters and nobz that should be good enough to take whenever you have points to spend.
My suggestion is to just shamelessly copy the space marine's master-crafted bolters: Instead of more shots, kustom shootas are Assault 2, AP -1 and 2 damage, making them a nice to have on big meks and warbosses and a good option shooting option for MANz and nobz that can compete with shoota boyz for certain targets, especially if ammo runts get involved.

Double the shots of the SAG if the Big Mek doesn't move and give him a reroll 1s to hit aura might make them more viable.

I don't use many of the Mek's shooty weapons so I'm not sure how to improve them or whether they need anything more than a points reduction?

Don't overestimate a "reroll 1" aura on BS 5+ models - you only add a 5.55% chance to hit per shot for a total chance of 38.88% chance to hit.
In comparison: BS 3+ units gets 11.11% more hits, for a total 77.77% chance to hit.
So anything but a flat +1 to hit is a waste data slate space, and would also save time when rolling buckets of dice.
Instead of fiddling with "orks only" and similar issues, I'd just give all mek boyz (big meks, mini meks, spannas, morkanauts, wazzbomm blastajets) a flat increase to BS 4+, no aura needed.

KMK is our best ranged weapon, SAG is just about mediocre. The difference? KMK has 2 less AP and a better strength, SAG has more range and has a low chance to overheat your enemies instead of itself, but in general the guns are about the same in power. SAG costs about twice as much, but only hits on 5+. Twice the shots and BS 4+ would put them on even footing, with the SAG being worse at killing vehicles, but better at killing everything else.
In addition, you could also add a gitfinda relic or warlord trait to push a single character to BS 3+, basically allowing one SAG to be awesome without giving an incentive to spam character artillery.

KMB and KMS are harder - due to the overheat rule, both are about as likely to hurt the firer as anything else. I actually got a beautifully painted metal Big Mek with KMB for free when I bought a KFF mek on ebay, that's how awesome it is.
You can't really complain about S8 AP-3 and d3 damage, but the single shot at BS 5+ turns the weapon into a low risk, low value investment. You basically pay points for a weapon you probably never want to shoot, even with the perfect target next to you - any amount is too much for that.
If you make big meks, meks and spannas BS 4+ and double the shots of both the KMB and the KMS, you could at least assume one hit on average per turn. This would make them work similar to Badrukk, who has been pretty solid this edition.

Last mek toy would be the tellyporta blasta, which is probably the best guns for meks right now, since it's an Assault d3 rokkit launcha for 11 points. If there was reason to field MA meks without a KFF (or any MA characters at all), it would probably get used more often.
Maybe allow a bigmek in MA and another infantry unit to perform a tellyporta strike, deploying them within' 3" of the big mek, but outside of 9" of enemy (Tervigon rule). To put some ork in there, roll a d6 for every model without MA tellyported and remove one as casualty for every 6 rolled.

TL;DR:
- Drop points for all rokkits. Maybe make rokkits rapid fire, so two shots at 12".
- Koptas, trakks should get their rokkits doubled to match their doubled point costs
- Kanz and Deff dreads should get Assault 3 rokkits
- Big shoota should cost 0 points
- Kustom shoota becomes Assault 2, S4 AP-1 D2 like master-crafted bolters
- No shooting aura for orks, instead make all meks (big meks, mini meks, spannas, morkanauts, wazzbomm blastajets) BS 4+
- In addition, double SAG shots and add warlord trait or relic to make a single SAG BS 3+
- Double shots for KMB and KMS
- MA Big Meks enable deep strike deployment for themselves and another infantry unit. Non-MA models might get tellyported into the ground.

 Jidmah wrote:
snip

You better bet that when Jidmah talks, I listen.

Agree with everything you've said apart from Big Shootas.

I don't see the point in a 0 pt weapon taking up space on a vehicle. Like I'd rather pay the points and have it be useful with some sweet AP or more shots or something. I guess the difficulty is balancing it to fulfil its role without sneaking into rokkit territory.

Your idea to make more variety of weapons (different rokkits, rokkit arms etc) is inspired. We need to pass some of these ideas on.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
snip

You better bet that when Jidmah talks, I listen.

Agree with everything you've said apart from Big Shootas.

I don't see the point in a 0 pt weapon taking up space on a vehicle. Like I'd rather pay the points and have it be useful with some sweet AP or more shots or something. I guess the difficulty is balancing it to fulfil its role without sneaking into rokkit territory.

Your idea to make more variety of weapons (different rokkits, rokkit arms etc) is inspired. We need to pass some of these ideas on.

I agree. Excellent post , especially liked killakan rokkit arm suggestion; but big shootas for 0 just become a waste on vehicles.

They just need more shots I think. Btw what about
Big shoota: str5 AP- d1
36’’ assault 3
18’’ rapid fire 5

A thought about points and why points drops aren't always the answer. TLDR: the Morkanought would be much better if it could be given three KMK, even if I paid the points for them. The chassis isn't overpriced, the guns aren't overpriced - I just don't get the options to put enough guns on the chassis.

So in full:
Some points values make sense when chassis/weapon are looked at separately; postulating that BS is part of weapon cost (I'm well aware that many examples don't fit this)
. e.g. a space marine missile launcher is 25pts, an Ork Rokkit launcha that will hit half as often is 12points (yes I'm simplifying, pros and cons).

Assuming that we can then separate BS from chassis cost, the chassis for a Morkanought, a Land Raider and a Knight aren't massively different value wise (go with me here).

The key difference is that a Land Raider gets 117+pts of weapons for a 239pt chassis, whilst the Morkanought gets 80pts of weapons for a 270pt chassis. And I only consider 41pts of those weapons to be worthwhile...

The Kustom Mega Kannon isn't bad or overpriced, it's just that the competition is getting four Lascannons on a similar chassis. KMKs are quite a bit cheaper than lascannons actually - why not make the Morkanought KMK weapon a special 5D6 shots KMK cannon and price the weapon at 85pts? (5*17). With that option the Morkanought is then a similar cost/durability/dakka to a Land Raider.

Yea good point Johann, I think the problem might be the chassis and how many weapons it can take in some cases.

I think generally and away from Orks it would be better to have different weapons on vehicles than on infantry. Even when they're equivalent weapons. So a "Heavy Bolter" should have one cost for Infantry and another for vehicles. I really think this granularity would help the game.

 MrJohann wrote:
A thought about points and why points drops aren't always the answer. TLDR: the Morkanought would be much better if it could be given three KMK, even if I paid the points for them. The chassis isn't overpriced, the guns aren't overpriced - I just don't get the options to put enough guns on the chassis.

So in full:
Some points values make sense when chassis/weapon are looked at separately; postulating that BS is part of weapon cost (I'm well aware that many examples don't fit this)

Yes, exactly. That's the reason I split the rokkit discussion in three.
However, both of the nauts have no weapon options, so you might as well just add up all the weapons and add whatever points the whole package is worth. I think a proper value can be iterated for these two models with proper play testing. For battle wagons and their hundreds of configurations, this is much more of an issue.

. e.g. a space marine missile launcher is 25pts, an Ork Rokkit launcha that will hit half as often is 12points (yes I'm simplifying, pros and cons).

The rokkit is not our missile launcher though - it's our lascannon, the primary means to take out tough models. When you compare 25 point lascannons to two 12 point rokkits, the gap between the two weapons is much more clear.
The missile launcher pays a lot of points for flexibility, that the rokkit doesn't have. Outside of fluff, they have nothing in common.

And it's not like the missile launcher is a great weapon to begin with - the only reason someone has fielded a missile launcher against me in 8th was because the heavy weapon dude from his unit was modeled with one because they were starter set marines.

In general, weapons and units need to be costed in the context of their army, not game-wide. I'm all for stealing ideas from other codices, but point costs cannot be transferred from one army to another at all (unless we're talking about different colors of loyalist space marines, of course).

It doesn't really matter how much cheaper rokkits are compared to space marine missile launchers - fact is orks don't have the tools to handle tough models with many wounds right now and space marines do. Orks have different stat lines, rules and dynamics on the battlefield. I somehow doubt that a tactical marine squad will be advancing across the board and get stuck in combat instead of shooting their precious special and heavy weapons from cover. Ork boyz will do just that.

Assuming that we can then separate BS from chassis cost, the chassis for a Morkanought, a Land Raider and a Knight aren't massively different value wise (go with me here).

The key difference is that a Land Raider gets 117+pts of weapons for a 239pt chassis, whilst the Morkanought gets 80pts of weapons for a 270pt chassis. And I only consider 41pts of those weapons to be worthwhile...

The Kustom Mega Kannon isn't bad or overpriced, it's just that the competition is getting four Lascannons on a similar chassis. KMKs are quite a bit cheaper than lascannons actually - why not make the Morkanought KMK weapon a special 5D6 shots KMK cannon and price the weapon at 85pts? (5*17). With that option the Morkanought is then a similar cost/durability/dakka to a Land Raider.

We don't need a landraider. We need a morkanaut that's worth every single point. Not to mention that the chances of GW giving a model a loadout that's not supported by the current kit is next to zero.

I think bumping the morkanaut to BS4+ might do a lot to enforce it's "dis is da shooty 'un" vibe and make the points spent on decorative weaponry less of a tax. Two rokkits and a KMB hit about as hard as a KMK, so if those were properly costed (less than KMK), you'd have and average of three hits from morkanaut anti-tank weaponry plus the two twin big shootas.
Add the proposed changes to big shootas and KMB and you might be somewhere near your 5d6 KMK.

Otherwise it's apples to oranges. Keep in mind that a morkanaut can still crush most opponents in close combat, disengage, shoot some more and the run back in, while landraider will only cause a a wound or two to them if they are lucky and has all its weapons switched off for a turn. If you want

Note that GW is currently extremely bad at costing hybrid units properly. Both soul grinders and defilers are horribly overpriced because they pay for both their great shooting, their durability and their great close combat ability, even though you can't use both -
a fate that the nauts might share with them.

I like the idea of making orks ws4+/bs4+ or 3+/5+ depending on clan or something so making shooty orks better. Goffs could be fightier deathskulls or blood axes badmoonz, shootier. I miss my old orks that could hit something.
I also think as an orks rank increase so should it's ability to shoot. So not blanket 5+. Make burnas d6 seems a no brainier. Adjust points or whatever.

Actually I never understood why people scream that all orks should be BS5.

It is not valid argument anymore anyway, with Flashgits in index being 4+ BS. In fact more ork ranged specialists units should be 4+. Does not mean that they actually aim very well, but rather than unlike your average shootaboy they care enough to keep their guns in a good state and also they have access to cool gubbinz and targetting bitz.

I think units with boyz size should keep the BS5+ while gretchins, nobz, characters and vehicles should all be BS4+.

Which means boyz, kommandos, stormboyz, lootas, meks and tankbustas (plus burnaboyz, but they auto-hit anyway) should be BS5+, everything else 4+. I'd probably keep the bikes with BS5+ as well if they get a reduction in points.

Vehicles could be BS5+ but they need to double their shots then.

Characters should definitely be BS4+, and also nobz. Flash gitz are already BS4+ but they're penalized by the heavy weapon modifier, Snazzguns should be rapid fire 2 or even 3 to be worthy. Dreads and nauts at BS4+ make sense, and I'd really like to have trukks, BWs and buggies at BS4+ as well.

A general rule the makes To Hit rolls of 6s successful anyway, regardless of modifiers should be introduced as well, IMHO as a core rule, not only for orks.

What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

 Jidmah wrote:
What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

Kombi-rokkits, I guess.

There's no real need game wise, it just looks fair

Meks and spannas surely will benefit from being BS4+ but IMHO regular orks should be BS5+, that's their fluff. Only bigger ones, veterans (nobz and similar stuff) and heroes should be better since they have more experience.

Those meks just need some other kind of bonuses, maybe a more useful aura. Lootas and bustas could be cheaper and worthy even with BS5+.

Damage wise bustas are very good , they effectively have a 4+ against their preferred targets. Lootas felt pretty meh when I used them... not enough shots and in my opinion a unit that needs a constant cp usage(reroll low amount of shots) to function is not a very good one. They seem to have targeting helmets and scopes, and their fluff suggests that they grab loot, so targeting bitz too. So it’d make sense for them to be a 4+.

I don't understand why Lootas have the typical Ork number of attacks in cqc. They are wielding massive guns that are bigger than themselves, how on earth do they manage multiple attacks?!

Drop the cqc performance and improve the BS. It makes sense both from a function perspective and a fluff one.

 Blackie wrote:
There's no real need game wise, it just looks fair

Meks and spannas surely will benefit from being BS4+ but IMHO regular orks should be BS5+, that's their fluff. Only bigger ones, veterans (nobz and similar stuff) and heroes should be better since they have more experience.

Those meks just need some other kind of bonuses, maybe a more useful aura. Lootas and bustas could be cheaper and worthy even with BS5+.

Don't take this personal, but in my opinion there is no reason for any rule to exist if there is no need for it game wise.

Fluffy rules writing do not make for a fun game, they only make the rules more fun to read. Useless units get shelved, no matter how fluffy they are.

Fluff to rules has lead to all the terrible rules we have seen so far in previous editions, with the best example of an extremely fluffy and at the same utterly terrible rule being 7th edition's mob rule. This way to write rules should be dead and buried with 8th.
The game needs to be fluffy on the tabletop, not in the rule book.

Therefore my suggestion for all meks to become BS4+. All those units have expensive and powerful ranged weapons that have never seen the tabletop because they can't the brought side of a barn. It also matches the fluff - why would an ork build his own super-advanced weapons not be able to shoot with them?

I do agree that horde units should stay BS 5+. Lootaz and tank bustaz are very close to how they should work, lootaz just need a point drop to compete with artillery, tank bustas need some ablative wounds. Neither needs a higher ballistic skill.


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Drop the cqc performance and improve the BS. It makes sense both from a function perspective and a fluff one.

Or you could just leave the combat ability as is for simplicity's sake. It's not like you ever want your lootas in combat, and they don't do particularly well when they are.

You are taking away something they never use anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:


Therefore my suggestion for all meks to become BS4+. All those units have expensive and powerful ranged weapons that have never seen the tabletop because they can't the brought side of a barn. It also matches the fluff - why would an ork build his own super-advanced weapons not be able to shoot with them?

A mek with KMB or rokkit launcha is more than 30 points, I'd always take a mek gun or two tankbustas for the same price even if he was BS4+. Meks will never see the table if they don't have other rules, no one is going to take them just to add a little firepower to the army. In fact I really don't understand why meks and big meks don't have a real buffing aura, they can only repair vehicles. I'd like the re-roll hits of ones, since everyone has access to plasma re-rolls while orks don't.

My suggestion about nobz being BS4+ is pure logic since I think all those bigger orks should be BS4+. Meganobz would benefit a little from being BS4+ though, and if kustom shootas become 2pts like stormbolters (IMHO there's no reason why they shouldn't be 2 points) even nobz could benefit from being BS4+.

CikkCakk wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

Kombi-rokkits, I guess.

Would be great to use the ability to fire Kombi-rokkits on both modes now that is in the general rules - that would feel super Orky


@Jidmah - thanks for the response. I think I was just trying to understand how the index turned out the way it did.

 Blackie wrote:
A mek with KMB or rokkit launcha is more than 30 points, I'd always take a mek gun or two tankbustas for the same price even if he was BS4+. Meks will never see the table if they don't have other rules, no one is going to take them just to add a little firepower to the army.

You're right, but my point was more aimed at the war gear options of those meks. If the mek itself becomes viable, that would be great. However, people would still not buy a KMB or rokkit launche because they simply don't hit gak. There needs to be a reason to ever take anything from the "souped-up weapon list" (plus SAG, tellyporta blasta, wazzbomm megablasta, etc).
Somehow orks plasma weapons ended up being the worst weapons in an edition where plasma is the best for everyone else.

In fact I really don't understand why meks and big meks don't have a real buffing aura, they can only repair vehicles. I'd like the re-roll hits of ones, since everyone has access to plasma re-rolls while orks don't.

Big meks (wazzbomm blata jets, morkanauts) do have the KFF though. As my math has shown in one of my last posts, a "re-roll ones" aura is completely useless for orks, the "DakkaDakkaDakka" stratagem that is considered mostly useless does more than three times as much damage as a "re-roll ones" aura. Also note that none of our plasma weapons slay the bearer, so re-rolling ones is not as important.
Last, but not least, burna and loota units can have up to three spannas. Whatever their bonus is, you need to be able to stack it, and it should be relevant to both lootas and burnas.

Some brainstorming concerning new rules for meks:
Dakka overload. Pick a <clan> unit within 3" or that the mek is embarked on. Roll a d3:
1) For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead.
2) +1 to strength
3) -1 to AP
If you roll one or more hit rolls of one for the target unit, it takes that many mortal wounds after all shots have been resolved. The mek cannot use mek tools on the same turn he used dakka overload.
So yes, it could overload a unit of lootaz, but they will probably be gone afterwards. I didn't want to hand out flat +1 to shots because shoota boyz or tank bustas could get ridiculous really fast.
You get a cookie if you know which previous ork rule inspired this.

Instant repair. Once per shooting phase, a unit within 3" of the mek may re-roll a single dice
Boring, but effective rule. Lootaz could bring along their own re-roll and a mini-mek handing out re-rolls to mek guns might just be worth some points.

Mek krew. Instead of using mek tool, another mek within 3" add +1 to the number of wounds restored by using his mek tools
It kind of bugs me that you can field units with three meks in them, but one one of them can repair any given vehicle. At least let them join up.

My suggestion about nobz being BS4+ is pure logic since I think all those bigger orks should be BS4+.

Actually, following the fluff, nobz and MANz should be worse at shooting than lootas, tank bustas and flash gits. According to the 5th edition codex (best fluff, go read it!), nobz primary focus on the destructive power of their weapons, while deff guns are actually outfitted with target aids and recoil reducing mechanisms. So lootaz actually do aim, while nobz go for the more dakka approach.
As for MANz, the very first line of their description reads "Ork veterans who value the thrill of close combat above all else sometimes become Meganobz." - shooting isn't even mentioned anywhere on that page.

Meganobz would benefit a little from being BS4+ though, and if kustom shootas become 2pts like stormbolters (IMHO there's no reason why they shouldn't be 2 points) even nobz could benefit from being BS4+.

I don't think the kustom shoota will ever be worth any points unless it gets a different profile. I agree with Englishman here, a weapon should always have a reason to take it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrJohann wrote:
Would be great to use the ability to fire Kombi-rokkits on both modes now that is in the general rules - that would feel super Orky

I love that idea. Just allow both modes to be shot without reduced BS - you will still be shooting shootas at a vehicle or rokkits at infantry, but it will be awesome

 Jidmah wrote:

You're right, but my point was more aimed at the war gear options of those meks. If the mek itself becomes viable, that would be great. However, people would still not buy a KMB or rokkit launche because they simply don't hit gak. There needs to be a reason to ever take anything from the "souped-up weapon list" (plus SAG, tellyporta blasta, wazzbomm megablasta, etc).
Somehow orks plasma weapons ended up being the worst weapons in an edition where plasma is the best for everyone else.

What if meks with special weapons gave buffs to nearby models armed with same weapon? Like a rerolls of 1 and +1BS for kustom blastas if mek has KMB or KMS, rerolling To Wound results of 1 for rokkit launchas if he has a RL, etc. So not only do they provide a bit of a ranged kick by themselves, they synergise with units other than vehicles. SAG and Tellyporta blasta need some whacky but powerful abilities and not just mortal wounds on a lucky roll imho.

 Jidmah wrote:

Last, but not least, burna and loota units can have up to three spannas. Whatever their bonus is, you need to be able to stack it, and it should be relevant to both lootas and burnas.

First spanner allows to reroll a number of shots. Second one gives you +1 shot/autohit to each model. Third one makes it so loota squad has a chance to shoot twice like flashgits. No idea for burnas sadly. (Speaking of Flashgits ability , that roll of shooting again should get a +1 to it for every enemy unit in range except the first one). Does not have to be the way I've described it, but general idea is that each spanner gives an appropriate buff to a unit and if they should die, buff dissipates.

 Jidmah wrote:

Some brainstorming concerning new rules for meks:
Dakka overload. Pick a <clan> unit within 3" or that the mek is embarked on. Roll a d3:
1) For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead.
2) +1 to strength
3) -1 to AP
If you roll one or more hit rolls of one for the target unit, it takes that many mortal wounds after all shots have been resolved. The mek cannot use mek tools on the same turn he used dakka overload.
So yes, it could overload a unit of lootaz, but they will probably be gone afterwards. I didn't want to hand out flat +1 to shots because shoota boyz or tank bustas could get ridiculous really fast.
You get a cookie if you know which previous ork rule inspired this.

I like it, but it'd be nice to have something in place of #1, so it could be used reliably with shootaboys too. Maybe #1 could be choose 1: For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead OR reroll both To Hit and To Wound results of 1?

 Jidmah wrote:

Instant repair. Once per shooting phase, a unit within 3" of the mek may re-roll a single dice
Boring, but effective rule. Lootaz could bring along their own re-roll and a mini-mek handing out re-rolls to mek guns might just be worth some points.
...
Mek krew. Instead of using mek tool, another mek within 3" add +1 to the number of wounds restored by using his mek tools
It kind of bugs me that you can field units with three meks in them, but one one of them can repair any given vehicle. At least let them join up.

Simple, but good ideas

 Jidmah wrote:

As for MANz, the very first line of their description reads "Ork veterans who value the thrill of close combat above all else sometimes become Meganobz." - shooting isn't even mentioned anywhere on that page.
...
I don't think the kustom shoota will ever be worth any points unless it gets a different profile. I agree with Englishman here, a weapon should always have a reason to take it.

I have a suggestion. What if Meganobs could fire their guns while in melee? Be it a stratagem or innate unit ability. Would be great alongside:

 Jidmah wrote:

Just allow both modes to be shot without reduced BS - you will still be shooting shootas at a vehicle or rokkits at infantry, but it will be awesome

As far as fixing BWs and Trukks goes, someone mentioned making giving them a melee upgrade mandatory on the last page, as a side effect of making them cheaper. What if all ork vehicles, transports included, got better at melee? It gives them additional purpose without making them spammy.

I think Ork Boyz should be separated into Choppa Boyz and Shotta Boyz.

Keep the Choppa as they are. Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas. (So 3 instead of 2) (I don't know if make that in half range so 9" or any range. Of course they lose the +1 attack for being more than 20)
Make them one less Leadership to reflect that they are a little more coward than the Choppa ones, because they prefer ranged combat (With the mob rule it doesn't matter, just a little of flavour)

Is not like units having different BS/WS in the same codex is unheard off. You have Blood Claws with their BS+3 and WS+4.

Based on that, give ork shooting units BS+4. Give groots some other bonus to their accuracy (Not BS3+, thats a bit too much) and fixed.


And one stratagem that I have think of...

Overwhelming powah! 1CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your movement phase. Pick a Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field. On a roll of 2+, the range of that Kustom Force Field is increased to 14". On a roll of 1, the Big Mek receives 1d3 Mortal Wounds, and the range is increased to 18" instead when the Kustom Force Field is overcharged. If the Big Mek dies, any unit within 3" take 1d3 Mortal Wounds (1d6 if the unit has more than 10 models). Any time a Big Mek's Kustom Force Field is overcharged, the next time you use this stratagem on it, the roll increases by 1 ( 3+ after one overcharge, 4+ after two, etc...). The extra range last until the start of your next movement phase.

A little too complicated? Usefull? Maybe to cheap in CP? Has somebody suggested something similar allready?

 Galas wrote:
I think Ork Boyz should be separated into Choppa Boyz and Shotta Boyz.

Keep the Choppa as they are. Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas. (So 3 instead of 2) (I don't know if make that in half range so 9" or any range. Of course they lose the +1 attack for being more than 20)
Make them one less Leadership to reflect that they are a little more coward than the Choppa ones, because they prefer ranged combat (With the mob rule it doesn't matter, just a little of flavour)

Is not like units having different BS/WS in the same codex is unheard off. You have Blood Claws with their BS+3 and WS+4.

Sure, but why?
Shoota boyz are pretty much fine as they are, they already trade a lot of combat ability away by dropping their choppa. On top of that, shoota boyz are still a unit that wants to be in combat, if you nerf that you pretty much end up with bolter marines. No one needs those.
There is also no fluff indicating that shoota boyz are in any way more cowardly than their choppa counterparts - quite the opposite, as choppa boyz are usually just lacking the teef do buy themselves a nice shoota.

Based on that, give ork shooting units BS+4. Give groots some other bonus to their accuracy (Not BS3+, thats a bit too much) and fixed.

To be blunt: No two-line rule change will fix the ork index to become a great codex. If you read the thread, you'll understand why.

And one stratagem that I have think of...

Overwhelming powah! 1CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your movement phase. Pick a Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field. On a roll of 2+, the range of that Kustom Force Field is increased to 14". On a roll of 1, the Big Mek receives 1d3 Mortal Wounds, and the range is increased to 18" instead when the Kustom Force Field is overcharged. If the Big Mek dies, any unit within 3" take 1d3 Mortal Wounds (1d6 if the unit has more than 10 models). Any time a Big Mek's Kustom Force Field is overcharged, the next time you use this stratagem on it, the roll increases by 1 ( 3+ after one overcharge, 4+ after two, etc...). The extra range last until the start of your next movement phase.

A little too complicated? Usefull? Maybe to cheap in CP? Has somebody suggested something similar allready?

Utterly useless. Might as well just bring a second KFF mek and not allow enemy snipers trigger get a free artillery strike on my army.
You are basically spending a CP to give one or two units a 5++ save. Compared to other defensive stratagems (-1 to hit, can only be targeted when closest, 5+ FNP) this is a waste of CP.


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 gnome_idea_what wrote:
As far as fixing BWs and Trukks goes, someone mentioned making giving them a melee upgrade mandatory on the last page, as a side effect of making them cheaper. What if all ork vehicles, transports included, got better at melee? It gives them additional purpose without making them spammy.

You would need to increase transport capacity though, as you need to have a certain amount of orks drop out of your transports to make them actually do something. Assuming you have three trukks, you only get what amounts to one mob upped unit of boyz that used Da Jump. 40 boyz appearing next to your opponents army is impressive, and in some way comparable to 20 genestealers and a trygron popping out of tunnel.
So if you wanted to have the same fighting power as three trygons digging tunnels and bringing their genestealer friends along, you would have to field nine trukks already - and you would still have to cross the board while getting shot, unlike the trygon.

Sory, the explosions where if the big mekk dies by the stratagem damage, like perils. Maybe then it could be done has a special rule for the big mekk?
Personally y i dont see why you end with tacticals by changing the +1attavk for +20 for +1shoot.
The leadership thing was non relevant, they can be the same without a problem.
And Im totally aware that no single change will fix the index, I just don think shooting orks should be BS5+

 Galas wrote:
Sory, the explosions where if the big mekk dies by the stratagem damage, like perils. Maybe then it could be done has a special rule for the big mekk?

Why would you want to make a HQ that's just barely viable worse?
There is no more reason for a big mek to explode than for a tech marine or a warpsmith.

Personally y i dont see why you end with tacticals by changing the +1attavk for +20 for +1shoot.

Your whole change would leave them at WS4 and one less attack. A mob of 30 would then get 30 hits instead of the current 60, literally cutting their combat ability in half. In return they get 45 hits from shooting instead of 20 hits., which is nice, but we're talking about S4 AP 0 shoots at 18".
Shoota boyz don't really have a problem right now, so if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Being able to whack people over the head while holding weapons is the very identity of the ork army. Take that away and you get guardmen/cultists/scouts.

What? Im talking of removing the extra attack from being more than 20 boyz. Shootas would still have their two base attacks. So 30 shootas would have 60 attacks at 4WS.
A unit of 30 shottas would have 90 shootd instead of 60 with the extra soot for being more than 20.
So 30 shotas would have 60 4+WS attacks and 90 4+BS shoots.

The rule for the big mek was to try to reflect the nature of randomnes with a risk but a big reward for orks, risking some wounds for doubling the range, or just upgrading the range without any cost. . But if thats isnt balanceable np, it was just and idea. It could be diferent. If you rol 1, the forcefield deactivates for one turn, if you rol 2-5 the range is increased by 5", if you roll a 6 it doubles to 18". That has a basic rule of the big mek. And it should d be someting you chose to do, not automatic.

But sorry for making lose your time i have only a small 1850p ork army, is obviously you know much more from the army than me. So i shouldbt insist!
And sorry by my grammar, im in a movile and is horrible to write when the autocorrectorr changes everything to spanish

 Galas wrote:
Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas.

I'm not sure what part I am missing here.

You do know that ork boyz have WS 3+, right?

Yeah. I suppose you could make them +3WS and +4BS but that would make them deserve, probably a 1pm increase.

Except you're still trying to fix something that does not need fixing and raising its points in the process.

Ork shoota boyz are nowhere near the problems ork shooting has.

shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability (without involving outside sources like painboys/Big Meks which just inflate their cost) and damage output for their cost, with speed being their only real advantage. Adding in an exhaust cloud rule making opponents suffer -1 to hit against them in the shooting phase (as much as I hate facing that rule, it makes sense IMO) or either a built in invuln. or counting as being in cover all the time helps deal with one of those issues. Another possible way of promoting large biker squads is to give them a size based bonus similar to Green Tide for Boyz. Maybe any unit above 4 warbikers gets to have an additional D3 attacks per model on the charge, making it so that it gives us more hitting power and a way of reflecting the sheer mass of bikers grinding through the enemy ala old hammer of wrath. Throw in the mandatory price decrease alongside this and they have a more defined role in the codex.

Similarly, I feel Trukks, in order to give themselves a more defined role versus the battlewagon, should reflect it as more of a fighting platform for boyz. If they don't decrease them in cost and durability to make them viable to be taken in multiples, to make them worthwhile to Boyz/CC units, they should allow a trukk to charge enemy units and, if successful, allow the unit inside to deploy around the enemy and count as having charged that enemy unit as well. It protects the boyz inside more directly from overwatch fire and feels like boyz flying out straight into the fray. This idea definitely requires more tweaking (and I still believe the unit cap in the transport should be raised to 15) but at least it differentiates it from the battlewagon more clearly.

@Galas

Shoota Boyz as is are actually fine, Ork shooting's main issue is pricing problems, the ubiquity of -1 to hit shooting mods, and durability problems on a lot of our shooting units. All of this can largely be solved with what we discussed with the Ork racial rule of ignoring enemy to hit modifiers in shooting, making guns like Big Shootas actually work taking by making them RF 3 or -1AP as Jidmah suggested and tweaking the costs and durability of guys like Lootas and Tankbustas. Throw in some actual rules that buff shooting like some sort of aura from Meks/Big Meks and we're set.

I agree about bikers and big shootas/dakkaguns in general to be more deadly. Bikes should have a 5+ invuln or a -1 to hit, while those S5 shots should be AP-1, like heavy bolters.

I disagree about trukks having their transport capacity increased or being better fighters, they just need to be way cheaper, maybe even less resilient. But they can't be more than 45 points including the weapon.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree about bikers and big shootas/dakkaguns in general to be more deadly. Bikes should have a 5+ invuln or a -1 to hit, while those S5 shots should be AP-1, like heavy bolters.

I agree with you two here. I would prefer -1 to hit though, because it discourage plasma from overcharging and overcharges plasma kills bikers extremely well.
Kind of depends on whether blood axes get a -1 to hit klan trait. -2 to hit warbikers would be insane and not very blood axe-y.

With a defensive buff and -1 AP i would probably want to field them without any cost reductions.

I disagree about trukks having their transport capacity increased or being better fighters, they just need to be way cheaper, maybe even less resilient. But they can't be more than 45 points including the weapon.

I only suggested this in response to the suggestion that trukks should not be spammed.

You are basically both right, in the end X points of transports must result in Y orks being transported. If you make trukks cheaper, you don't need to increase point costs. If you keep them as expensive as they are, they need to carry more orks.

As for orks mob rule working on MSU:
You could just change it to work like the weird boyz power, count all orks within 6" of a unit, and that's your LD.

Glad to see this thread still going, there's some great ideas here.

-1 to hit bikers makes a ton of sense. Perhaps only have it activate if the unit advances? For fluff and to help mitigate shooting shenanigans? Of course dakka gunz should be -1 AP also.

I don't think blood axes will get the -1 to hit racial trait. I reckon it'll be an always counts as cover trait instead as with that Nid hive fleet. There's probably an internal rule about not giving horde armies a flat -1 to hit.

With regards that powa overload stratagem, why not have it be "1 CP - your kff is now a 5+++ instead of a 5++."? I think that would be both more useful and fun. It could also be a relic; "Grand Mek Orkymedes Supa Field".

I've also had a thought on a new flavour of Boyz. Ladz, 7ppm Boyz able to take both shoota and choppa. Perhaps give them a 5+ save for another point? What you think? Could be a stratagem upgrade per game too?

Are there any more generic stratagems that we are pretty much certain we'll get? For example: "1CP to deep strike one unit/3CP to deep strike two units" or "3CP fight twice in fight phase".

If we break it down there tends to be 30ish stratagems in each codex, 20 or so are general army wide and another 10-12 are for each sub faction. Of those 20 general stratagems I'd say roughly half are army wide and very general (relic for example) and the other half are specific to certain units. So that leaves us about 10 stratagems for our units. Not many all things considered. Particularly when you imagine there'll probably be one unique to gretchin, one for dreads, one perhaps for nauts. They quickly deplete. What do you guys think we'll see there?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Glad to see this thread still going, there's some great ideas here.

-1 to hit bikers makes a ton of sense. Perhaps only have it activate if the unit advances? For fluff and to help mitigate shooting shenanigans? Of course dakka gunz should be -1 AP also.

Always on -1 might be to powerful if you field 3 or more mobs of 15, so I'm sold.
Combined with the previous idea of giving evil suns the ability to advance and shoot at full BS this would actually make evil suns biker heavy.

I don't think blood axes will get the -1 to hit racial trait. I reckon it'll be an always counts as cover trait instead as with that Nid hive fleet. There's probably an internal rule about not giving horde armies a flat -1 to hit.

Nids have lots of options to give them -1 to hit already. Stacking that with a hive fleet bonus would have been totally broken. I don't think this has anything to do with hordes.

With regards that powa overload stratagem, why not have it be "1 CP - your kff is now a 5+++ instead of a 5++."? I think that would be both more useful and fun. It could also be a relic; "Grand Mek Orkymedes Supa Field".

I would like to see a return of the KFF relic from Waaagh! Ghazghkull upgrading a single KFF to 4++.
A stratagem should just improve the 5++ to 4++ for a turn, increased area isn't really useful at all.
While stacking saves is interesting, you generate a lot of dice rolls for little effect, especially when a pain boy gets involved and start to you roll three dice per wound caused.

I've also had a thought on a new flavour of Boyz. Ladz, 7ppm Boyz able to take both shoota and choppa. Perhaps give them a 5+ save for another point? What you think? Could be a stratagem upgrade per game too?

I don't think the models support the choppa-shoota boyz well.
A good idea for a stratagem would be 'ard boyz though. For 1 CP you pick a mob of boyz before the game starts and they have 4+ armor save for the rest of the game. The daemon banner upgrades work very similar.

Are there any more generic stratagems that we are pretty much certain we'll get? For example: "1CP to deep strike one unit/3CP to deep strike two units" or "3CP fight twice in fight phase".

The first one might be blood axe only, the other one I'm not sure about as it's a stratagem only found on followers of khorne.

If we break it down there tends to be 30ish stratagems in each codex, 20 or so are general army wide and another 10-12 are for each sub faction. Of those 20 general stratagems I'd say roughly half are army wide and very general (relic for example) and the other half are specific to certain units. So that leaves us about 10 stratagems for our units. Not many all things considered. Particularly when you imagine there'll probably be one unique to gretchin, one for dreads, one perhaps for nauts. They quickly deplete. What do you guys think we'll see there?

One always tends to benefit shooting with multiple battletanks at once. So there might be one that gives +1 to hit and wound, re-roll or the like. I'm also pretty sure that there might be one buffing mek guns when you have multiple units.
Another one I can see would be three SAGs choosing some point on the map and then on for everything within 6" of that point, roll 4+ (+1 for units of 10+ -1 for chracters) and deal d3 mortal wounds if successful. There was an apoc formation that did could do something like that in the past, and similar apoc formations (vindicators, zoantropes) got stratagems like that as well.
Last one I definitely want to see is guaranteed explosions for ork vehicles.

 Grimskul wrote:

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability

Warbikers arent the only component of speed freaks, boys play a big part too. And as it stands, all the incentive to take boys pushes them towards large unwieldy slow mobs. You literally have to sacrifice LD, attacks, strategems and ironically speed in order to play smaller 'fast' mobs of boys sine the larger groups can move around the table instantly.

Bikes may need a fix, butboys are hardly right either. Not everyone wants to play tide, and its been shoveled at us for years.

 davou wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability

Warbikers arent the only component of speed freaks, boys play a big part too. And as it stands, all the incentive to take boys pushes them towards large unwieldy slow mobs. You literally have to sacrifice LD, attacks, strategems and ironically speed in order to play smaller 'fast' mobs of boys sine the larger groups can move around the table instantly.

Bikes may need a fix, butboys are hardly right either. Not everyone wants to play tide, and its been shoveled at us for years.

Right. But the key aspect of boyz in speed freaks armies is largely being mechanized and that won't be solved until the transports themselves are fixed, which was the core about why I went to talk about how we would change transports. I don't think boyz need anymore baseline bonuses to units and stuff like using Mob Up stratagem (and likely other stratagems when the codex is released) after deploying two units is a way to bypass that. At the end of the day, if your transport options suck, it doesn't matter if boyz are okay in small numbers, because you won't have a way to fully utilize them.

 Grimskul wrote:
Right. But the key aspect of boyz in speed freaks armies is largely being mechanized and that won't be solved until the transports themselves are fixed, which was the core about why I went to talk about how we would change transports. I don't think boyz need anymore baseline bonuses to units and stuff like using Mob Up stratagem (and likely other stratagems when the codex is released) after deploying two units is a way to bypass that. At the end of the day, if your transport options suck, it doesn't matter if boyz are okay in small numbers, because you won't have a way to fully utilize them.

Exactly this. Speed Freak Boyz need a decent transport that we currently lack. The suggestions to fix Trukks and Battlewagons are key in this regard.

Biker Mobz certainly have their place in a Speed Freakz list mind, as do Buggies, Trakks, Deff Koptas, our flyers and (in my opinion to a lesser extent) Storm Boyz.

Out of these only Buggies, Trakks and Storm Boyz are somewhat viable while the other units languish.

For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

That would be awesome. I like.

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

About big shootas - rokkits problem. What if you could choose profile of rapid fire 3 and assault 3? The more I’m thinking about it, the more I like this idea.

If you are sufficiently close you can double your shots and drown enemy in dakka, provided that you haven’t advanced? So 18” is lethal range for big shootas and 12” for Rokkits. Big shoota becomes nastier on vehicles.

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

Kinda like a bubble chukka, except it protects the spot it lands on. The plane could shoot it at the floor under itself if it needed protecting, but more an aerial support type unit.

 davou wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

Kinda like a bubble chukka, except it protects the spot it lands on. The plane could shoot it at the floor under itself if it needed protecting, but more an aerial support type unit.

Maybe Morkanaft could get a similar ability? More tactical options = more variety. Although there is a downside to this, while this idea is original, it buffs jumping 30-40 boys even more which we should avoid. Okay, let me flesh it out:

Juiced Kustom Force Field: A vehicle has a 5++ save. At the end of your movement phase you may place a token anywhere on the field further away than 9" but closer than 36" within LOS of that vehicle which lasts until the start of your next turn. Vehicle counts as not having an invulnerable save until the start of your next turn. Wholy covered models within 9" of that token have a 5++.

"Further away than 9"..." part it there is so a vehicle can't keep shooting itself with KFF and give invul save to units around iself.