https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/24/daemon-engines-a-battlefield-in-a-box-and-a-new-codex/

So here it is, not much info on it other than 8 different IG regiments will be getting a spot in the codex as well as a mention to a nerf coming to conscripts.

I'm super pumped! What are you guys hoping to see for 8th edition Guard?

UPDATES!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/25/regimental-focus-catachan-sep25gw-homepage-post-2/d

Bye bye Conscript Spam. Either they won't benefit from Orders or they won't benefit from Commissars (maybe both?!).

If anything I'm hoping for some more use out of my vehicles. Some of them (Chimera, Most Russes) do feel pretty bad right now.

Darsath wrote:
If anything I'm hoping for some more use out of my vehicles. Some of them (Chimera, Most Russes) do feel pretty bad right now.

Agreed. It is sad that the iconic vehicles suck pretty bad. Stuff like the buff to Predators, Rhinos, and Razorbacks has gone a long way to bringing the feel of Space Marines back, I hope they do the same to Guard.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/24/daemon-engines-a-battlefield-in-a-box-and-a-new-codex/

So here it is, not much info on it other than 8 different IG regiments will be getting a spot in the codex as well as a mention to a nerf coming to conscripts.

GW will also begin selling bits for the other regiments as well.

I'm super pumped! What are you guys hoping to see for 8th edition Guard?

It doesn't say anywhere that GW will be selling the bits in any other way than they already do, i.e. in the relevant kits (even though that would be really neat).

Sorry confused that with an answer from GW on the facebook page. Let me see if I can find that. Guess I misinterpreted that one.

Dakka seem a cold and empty place without people complaining about Conscripts.

I'm preparing for the outrage about to hit these forums from those who went and bought 150 guardsmen for using as conscript spam about to find out that they are BS5+ and can't benefit from orders/commissar lol (my own guess, not fact or confirmed)

Conscript nerf was inevitable, what exactly they do with them should be interesting.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm preparing for the outrage about to hit these forums from those who went and bought 150 guardsmen for using as conscript spam about to find out that they are BS5+ and can't benefit from orders/commissar lol (my own guess, not fact or confirmed)

Conscript nerf was inevitable, what exactly they do with them should be interesting.

I don't think there's going to be much out rage since conscripts can be pretty easily converted to any other IG infantry unit. Not quite the same as buying three Riptides/Wraith Knights and ending with an expensive paperweight

Except from the one who kept claiming conscripts weren't op, or they were needed to make the army work. Then again I think most of them are too embarrassed to even pretend to talk about balance lately.

I'm also hoping that one of the regiments gets popular enough everyone uses them, and in the future we see new IG sculpts with them as the default. Because I hate cadian models and want to see something else.

I might actually ending up running a detachment of IG for my army, if they have any regiments that feel fitting for my tech thralls till we get that FW mechanicus expansion some day.

I'm not too familiar with IG fluff, is there a regiment that is tank heavy focused? Tempted to start up a IG army and interested in making a Motorised Company heavy on Russ variants.

Taking bets on what the Regiment rules will be - for sure someone will get the "This Regiment can reroll morale tests"

I couldn't give a gak about the nerfs conscripts are getting.

Leman Russ buffs WW@?

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm not too familiar with IG fluff, is there a regiment that is tank heavy focused? Tempted to start up a IG army and interested in making a Motorised Company heavy on Russ variants.

Taking bets on what the Regiment rules will be - for sure someone will get the "This Regiment can reroll morale tests"

Real question is who gets the inevitable '-1 to hit past 12"' one...

The Armageddon Steel Legion is portrayed as exclusively mechanized/armor-heavy in general, though pretty much every other planet/"Regiment" is known to contribute Armored regiments as well.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I couldn't give a gak about the nerfs conscripts are getting.

Leman Russ buffs WW@?

Buffing the IG Tanks would be great!

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm not too familiar with IG fluff, is there a regiment that is tank heavy focused? Tempted to start up a IG army and interested in making a Motorised Company heavy on Russ variants.

Taking bets on what the Regiment rules will be - for sure someone will get the "This Regiment can reroll morale tests"

Based on the basic fluff I know I would guess:

Cadia - Generalist/Morale based, aka reroll failed morale
Catachan - Using cover, like increase cover bonus to +2
Armageddon - most likely the tank focused one, maybe increased movement for vehicles
Tallarn - guerrilla/stealth rules, -1 to hit past 12"
Valhalla - they are known for being tough, so maybe a feel no pain rule
Vostroya - They view themselves as elite, so maybe re rolling misses of one
Mordian - something to do with overwatch, like hitting on 5+
Militarum Tempestus - something with deep striking

I'll be happy as long as the Battle Cannon has a rule that says something like :"Select a point. Find someone that still has Scatter dice and throw them (the Scatter dice). After scattering resolve against any targets within 2" of that point at S8, AP-4, Damage 3."

Or something like that.

Can't wait to see what kind of doctrines/rules my Vostroyan Firstborn get.

They're, in my humble opinion, still the gold standard for Guard sculpts. So much fun to play and a joy to paint as well.

Boys push guard.

Men push Vostroyan Firstborn, because in Imperial Vostroya, hat wear you!

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I don't think any of us are surprised with the conscript nerf. It will be interesting to see what they do. If they remove orders, that seems reasonable. If commissars are no longer able to put them back in line anymore, that might be what breaks them. The amount of conscripts you would lose to morale would basically delete the unit in most cases so you are better off taking mass infantry squads unless you are willing to pay the CP to keep your conscript squad from breaking.

What I want to know is what they plan to do with all the units in the codex that need buffing. Chimeras are an auto shelf this edition unless they get a massive over the top buff. They were overpriced in 7th edition. Increased in points in 8th & now suffer -1BS on the move, lost rear fire ports, lost command vehicle rule, lost amphibious rule.

Sentinels were marketed as being over the top awesome in the AM reveal prior to 8th but overall I consider them to be worse than they were previously. Yeah their survivability increased, but scout sentinels lost their ability to outflank. I'd rather have the old sentinels back.

Heavy flamers need a massive points reduction. You can nearly field 2 plasma for the cost of 1 heavy flamer at the moment, which is pretty bizarre.

Leman Russ variants I'm not even going to go into. They are so bad/overpriced I cannot even rationalize how anyone would feel this was ok.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm not too familiar with IG fluff, is there a regiment that is tank heavy focused? Tempted to start up a IG army and interested in making a Motorised Company heavy on Russ variants.

Taking bets on what the Regiment rules will be - for sure someone will get the "This Regiment can reroll morale tests"

Literally thousands from many planets across the imperium.

You see purpose built regiments of almost everything. All sentinel scout regiments, artillery regiments composed almost entirely of artillery, tank regiments, super heavy baneblade regiments, mechanized infantry regiments, etc. etc.

It's actually technically against the lore to have a unit with a combined focus in a single regiment unless it's a combined regiment. So let's say your army consisted of infantry, sentinels, and Leman Russ tanks, if you wanted to be 100% technical, the Infantry, Sentinels, and Leman russes should be from different regiments with different unit markings and camo schemes, even if they're from the same planet.

Most exciting to me, the rumor was Astra Militarium, Tyranids and CW Eldar coming up next in november.

This confirmation of 1 of the 3 means the other 2 are all the more likely. Pumped for Nids!

 Lance845 wrote:
Most exciting to me, the rumor was Astra Militarium, Tyranids and CW Eldar coming up next in november.

This confirmation of 1 of the 3 means the other 2 are all the more likely. Pumped for Nids!

It wasn't a rumor, it was confirmed by GW themselves.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/31/breaking-news-studio-preview-from-the-nova-open/ - Scroll down to the last paragraph, I suspect one codex will come out towards end of October with the mid November

Looking forward to this now! It's not going to make guard hordes go away though - I can't see myself running fewer than 200 guardsmen at 2000pts no matter what they change...

I hope they balance the regiment rules a little better than some of the previous ones. I don't really want my men to have to be 'counts-as-tallarn' to gain the clearly superior regimental tactic in tournament play

Please please please let one of the regiments be DKoK.

Will never happen though.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Please please please let one of the regiments be DKoK.

Will never happen though.

They already have regiment rules (Cult of Sacrifice).

Why would they need them in two places?

I'm hoping, though realistly speaking I doubt GW will attempt this, that a buff of the vox system will happen. Giving box casters chracter status, a cut in point cost, and some sort of relaying of coordinates mechNic to artillery, aircraft, etc to give +1 to hit, no cover would be ciemtic and themed as f$&@

SilverAlien wrote:
Except from the one who kept claiming conscripts weren't op, or they were needed to make the army work. Then again I think most of them are too embarrassed to even pretend to talk about balance lately.

I'm also hoping that one of the regiments gets popular enough everyone uses them, and in the future we see new IG sculpts with them as the default. Because I hate cadian models and want to see something else.

I might actually ending up running a detachment of IG for my army, if they have any regiments that feel fitting for my tech thralls till we get that FW mechanicus expansion some day.

Except that 100 conscript is not what is broken, it is the ability to ally in beat stick special characters and undercosted tauraxes.

Conscripts are quite easy to handle if you do not just take plasma guns everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm not too familiar with IG fluff, is there a regiment that is tank heavy focused? Tempted to start up a IG army and interested in making a Motorised Company heavy on Russ variants.

Taking bets on what the Regiment rules will be - for sure someone will get the "This Regiment can reroll morale tests"

Literally thousands from many planets across the imperium.

You see purpose built regiments of almost everything. All sentinel scout regiments, artillery regiments composed almost entirely of artillery, tank regiments, super heavy baneblade regiments, mechanized infantry regiments, etc. etc.

It's actually technically against the lore to have a unit with a combined focus in a single regiment unless it's a combined regiment. So let's say your army consisted of infantry, sentinels, and Leman Russ tanks, if you wanted to be 100% technical, the Infantry, Sentinels, and Leman russes should be from different regiments with different unit markings and camo schemes, even if they're from the same planet.

You are both correct quit chest thumping.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Please please please let one of the regiments be DKoK.

Will never happen though.

They already have regiment rules (Cult of Sacrifice).

Why would they need them in two places?

...they listed the 8 regiments getting "Chapter/Legion/Forgeworld/Regiment Tactics" on the article. No mystery here for what 8 they are; just a question of who gets what.

...now there are rules for 8 regiments of the Astra Militarum. Which regiments, you ask? Cadia and Catachan will, of course, be included, as well as new rules for Armageddon, Tallarn, Valhalla, Vostroya, Mordian and the Militarum Tempestus.

Chimeras will remain crap because they will want to shift Taurox boxes. It's not as if anybody was buying them based on looks alone.

Hopefully Commissars aren't nerfed into uselessness (again) because of Imperial Soup, but I won't hold my breath. If GW can actually nerf Conscript spam whilst not missing the mark and destroying everything that made them potentially viable I'll be very surprised, if impressed. Of course now Imperial Guard has been powerful for a quarter of a year, we can join the same club as Tau, Eldar and Chaos Space Marines as being perpetually scorned by the Space Marine mob forever as being perpetually broken.

I can see Leman Russ' getting a buff. It'll be interesting to see if the Vanquisher tank-hunter can actually hunt tanks instead of being the worst at it.

Okay, here goes my $0.02

DERP.

I was hoping to see regiment rules based around regiment types, since planets give a variety of different regiments to the IG.

Having each planet give a specific buff is bad, for sure (Cadians get re-roll 1s with lasguns that they've had since 3.5...
...
...
but I want to run a Cadian tank company).

But having only infantry buffed is even worse; that means that essentially the entire rest of the imperial guard that isn't an infantry regiment is stupid.

Are you telling me that the Catachans use their Leman Russes exactly the same as the Tallarn, who use them the same as the Cadians, who use them the same as the Valhallans? But suddenly when it comes to infantry, who went through the same basic training, they suddenly get super-special awesome skills?

That's silly.

I hope the regiment rules work on more than just infantry, and I hope that they are generalist enough to provide SOME bonus to literally the other eleventy whatever different types of regiment that don't start with INF and end in ANTRY.

If anything I'm hoping for some more use out of my vehicles. Some of them (Chimera, Most Russes) do feel pretty bad right now.
Agreed. It is sad that the iconic vehicles suck pretty bad. Stuff like the buff to Predators, Rhinos, and Razorbacks has gone a long way to bringing the feel of Space Marines back, I hope they do the same to Guard.

Triple agree with all of that. I don't play Guard myself, and I naturally gravitate towards assault cannons and snipers anyway, so Conscripts haven't really been an issue for me, but I do thinks it's sad that army that is most known for it's vehicles, almost never really deploys them anymore. I'd like to see their mainstay tanks and transports get a little bit of a buff.

I hope we get our platoon structure back. I bet they will do it like 7th, only one per platoon. I hope our vehicles get better, and something to help our big guns to suck less, even with a Moo, they are too much diced based to be effective, and they cost too much to be taken in squadrons to mitigate this. I am kinda hyped for regimental doctrines, but I will just rename them with my buddy to suit our fluff.



And swear to the Emperor, if militarum Tempestus won't get any relics, formations, in a codex with only 5 units, I'll...I dunno, but something will happen.


Make IG great again !

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, here goes my $0.02

DERP.

I was hoping to see regiment rules based around regiment types, since planets give a variety of different regiments to the IG.

Having each planet give a specific buff is bad, for sure (Cadians get re-roll 1s with lasguns that they've had since 3.5...
...
...
but I want to run a Cadian tank company).

But having only infantry buffed is even worse; that means that essentially the entire rest of the imperial guard that isn't an infantry regiment is stupid.

Are you telling me that the Catachans use their Leman Russes exactly the same as the Tallarn, who use them the same as the Cadians, who use them the same as the Valhallans? But suddenly when it comes to infantry, who went through the same basic training, they suddenly get super-special awesome skills?

That's silly.

I hope the regiment rules work on more than just infantry, and I hope that they are generalist enough to provide SOME bonus to literally the other eleventy whatever different types of regiment that don't start with INF and end in ANTRY.

Tank-antry? If they follow the AdMech mold, it wouldn't be limited like Chapter/Legion tactics are (AdMech 'Forgeworld tactics' are <Forgeworld> keyword based, not unit-type keyword based).

GhostRecon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, here goes my $0.02

DERP.

I was hoping to see regiment rules based around regiment types, since planets give a variety of different regiments to the IG.

Having each planet give a specific buff is bad, for sure (Cadians get re-roll 1s with lasguns that they've had since 3.5...
...
...
but I want to run a Cadian tank company).

But having only infantry buffed is even worse; that means that essentially the entire rest of the imperial guard that isn't an infantry regiment is stupid.

Are you telling me that the Catachans use their Leman Russes exactly the same as the Tallarn, who use them the same as the Cadians, who use them the same as the Valhallans? But suddenly when it comes to infantry, who went through the same basic training, they suddenly get super-special awesome skills?

That's silly.

I hope the regiment rules work on more than just infantry, and I hope that they are generalist enough to provide SOME bonus to literally the other eleventy whatever different types of regiment that don't start with INF and end in ANTRY.

Tank-antry? If they follow the AdMech mold, it wouldn't be limited like Chapter/Legion tactics are (AdMech 'Forgeworld tactics' are <Forgeworld> keyword based, not unit-type keyword based).

Yes, though I also mean to say things like the Cadian bonus, which is that they can 're-roll ones to hit with lasguns' but if you're running a tank company that doesn't do gak.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Please please please let one of the regiments be DKoK.

Will never happen though.

They already have regiment rules (Cult of Sacrifice).

Why would they need them in two places?

...they listed the 8 regiments getting "Chapter/Legion/Forgeworld/Regiment Tactics" on the article. No mystery here for what 8 they are; just a question of who gets what.

...now there are rules for 8 regiments of the Astra Militarum. Which regiments, you ask? Cadia and Catachan will, of course, be included, as well as new rules for Armageddon, Tallarn, Valhalla, Vostroya, Mordian and the Militarum Tempestus.

I think DkoK and Elysian's will get an update "at some point" with regiment tactics and potentially a stratagem each once FW pull their finger out. The reason being, is the same happened to Grey Knights in that they already had a listed "trait" in the index but got it updated and added to in their codex. I also expect similar things for BA, DA and SWs.

I expect this to happen for everything FW produces eventually. But, as for the time scale, that is anyones guess.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I hope the regiment rules work on more than just infantry, and I hope that they are generalist enough to provide SOME bonus to literally the other eleventy whatever different types of regiment that don't start with INF and end in ANTRY.

I'd be very very very surprised if these traits affect everything in the army.

I think it'll be more akin to Marines, affecting Infantry and Sentinals. If it affects tanks and flyers then Marines have a big right to be y

It'll be interesting to see what it effects. With admech, one justification for it affecting everything is we have maybe a fourth the units guard or space marines have in the first place. But who knows, it could be a space marines alone focus on infantry as part of their theme.

Hopefully the super heavies won't benefit from tactics at least. That'd be a bit silly.

One thing that is possible, as it seems many units were originally priced with tactics in mind... maybe leman russes are one of the only vehicles that gains regiment doctrines.

 sfshilo wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Except from the one who kept claiming conscripts weren't op, or they were needed to make the army work. Then again I think most of them are too embarrassed to even pretend to talk about balance lately.

I'm also hoping that one of the regiments gets popular enough everyone uses them, and in the future we see new IG sculpts with them as the default. Because I hate cadian models and want to see something else.

I might actually ending up running a detachment of IG for my army, if they have any regiments that feel fitting for my tech thralls till we get that FW mechanicus expansion some day.

Except that 100 conscript is not what is broken, it is the ability to ally in beat stick special characters and undercosted tauraxes.

Conscripts are quite easy to handle if you do not just take plasma guns everywhere.

Pretty much this, it is the exact same as the people whom where whining that Cryx where overpowered in MK2. Cryx where faster, yes, and harder to hit and they debuffed your units. But they had virtually no buffing spells and whilst they may have been fast and hard to hit they went down like a ton of scrap iron when you did due to them having relatively low armour and fewer hit boxes when compared to other factions.
Sadly, players continued to optimise their forces to face big tough hitty things and them whined when they faced Cryx and had to actually boost to hit because the big tough things they minmaxed against where easy to hit. End result? Cryx has now been nerfed to the bottom in MK3.
It is the same with Conscripts and 40K. Players minmax their forces to be able to wipe the floor with small elite armies of tough bods, at the expense of anti-horde gear. When they find themselves facing a horde they get ruffled because they cannot have the easy victory they consider their right.
Hell, a friend of mine can go through 50 Conscripts backed by a Commissar in a single turn. He throws Mortarrion at them and laughs. Or he uses flamers and laughs. Or any one of the doze other options available, and laughs. Because he brings all comers lists, not an anti-elite list.

Anyway, back on topic:
Please please please can we have buffs for Veterans, Chimera's and Leman Russ squadrons? They desperately need them as all three of those are currently sick jokes as they stand. And the Baneblade needs to lose its '-1 to hit when moving' rule.

Kdash wrote:

I'd be very very very surprised if these traits affect everything in the army.

I think it'll be more akin to Marines, affecting Infantry and Sentinals. If it affects tanks and flyers then Marines have a big right to be y

I mean, if it's just infantry and Sentinels then Guard players have a big right to be salty, seeing as how Marines have a huge variety of Dreadnought-keyworded vehicles ranging from 8-wound hybrid CC/shooty things to 14-wound T8 2+/4++ giants with massive firepower. I feel like at the very least Guard tactics should apply to Leman Russ keyworded vehicles.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

I'd be very very very surprised if these traits affect everything in the army.

I think it'll be more akin to Marines, affecting Infantry and Sentinals. If it affects tanks and flyers then Marines have a big right to be y

I mean, if it's just infantry and Sentinels then Guard players have a big right to be salty, seeing as how Marines have a huge variety of Dreadnought-keyworded vehicles ranging from 8-wound hybrid CC/shooty things to 14-wound T8 2+/4++ giants with massive firepower. I feel like at the very least Guard tactics should apply to Leman Russ keyworded vehicles.

I'm tempted to agree on the Leman Russ keyword, but, i'm just a little pessimistic. That said, they could get them and they'll still prob be not that efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
And the Baneblade needs to lose its '-1 to hit when moving' rule.

This is needed of course. It's just a stupid oversight right now in my mind, though i've never had any response about it when raised as part of FAQ requests.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Hell, a friend of mine can go through 50 Conscripts backed by a Commissar in a single turn. He throws Mortarrion at them and laughs. Or he uses flamers and laughs. Or any one of the doze other options available, and laughs. Because he brings all comers lists, not an anti-elite list.

Morty won't one shot a conscript unit generally. Even if every melee one of his melee attack wounds, you buff him, he casts the anti horde psychic power, throws grenades which get an average result, and his aura goes off, while he is is at max statline, he still kills 40ish.

Do you know how many flamers it takes to kill a unit of 50 conscripts in one turn on average? Roughly 32, 3.5 shots each, 2/3 wound 2/3 bypass armor.

No it isn't a matter of taking more anti horde, its conscripts being absurdly durable even against 450-600 points of dedicated anti horde weaponry. Almost nothing kills them efficiently compared to every other unit in the game. We've all played with them, you are full of it, don't blatantly lie I will call you out for it. Conscripts laugh at the idea that either of the things you mentioned are an actual threat to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

I'd be very very very surprised if these traits affect everything in the army.

I think it'll be more akin to Marines, affecting Infantry and Sentinals. If it affects tanks and flyers then Marines have a big right to be y

I mean, if it's just infantry and Sentinels then Guard players have a big right to be salty, seeing as how Marines have a huge variety of Dreadnought-keyworded vehicles ranging from 8-wound hybrid CC/shooty things to 14-wound T8 2+/4++ giants with massive firepower. I feel like at the very least Guard tactics should apply to Leman Russ keyworded vehicles.

That'd be my guess, leman russes and maybe sentinels, plus infantry. Maybe even transports as well.

The Ad Mech codex has no such distinction. That said, our only vehicles are walkers.

But I think the IG codex is where, if it's gonna happen, they'll make some regiments better at foot soldiers, and others better at vehicles.

No one ever seems to mention that conscripts have a leadership of 4, yet 'bring snipers' is never mentioned as a very simple way to stop them (obviously, not all factions have snipers (but no one cares about Orks)).

<100 points of snipers will kill a commissar most of the time.

You only have to kill 28 of them to get rid of a unit of 50.

Doesn't Mortarion have a mortal wound bomb that can kill the characters supporting the conscripts in 2 player turns?

Anyway, limiting conscripts' orders is largely irrelevant to the way most people use them - to protect the fancy characters from other factions, since IG doesn't have any of their own.

 Purifier wrote:
The Ad Mech codex has no such distinction. That said, our only vehicles are walkers.

But I think the IG codex is where, if it's gonna happen, they'll make some regiments better at foot soldiers, and others better at vehicles.

I think I remember someone getting a quote that the regiment doctrines would be broad, like the others have been, but that stratagems would give more distinction between types of regiment. No exact explanation on what that meant, but I think most interpreted it as having stratagems that resembled the chapter master stratagem from SM, upgrading certain units to give different buffs to different unit types.

Of course, with admech they already did make some better at infantry, some at tanks, etc. Some tactics are mostly useless on tanks compared to infantry (6+ to avoiding losing your last wound, rerolls in the fight phase, or the buff to assault/RF weapons on the move) and some are good on everything (two canticles a turn), and some are best on vehicles or long range shooting units (the -1 to hit tactic).

So they could easily make some units better with tanks, even if they don't mean to. The fact that the best tank regiment could easily end up being tallarn or catachan is also kinda funny.


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jaxor1983 wrote:
No one ever seems to mention that conscripts have a leadership of 4, yet 'bring snipers' is never mentioned as a very simple way to stop them (obviously, not all factions have snipers (but no one cares about Orks)).

<100 points of snipers will kill a commissar most of the time.

You only have to kill 28 of them to get rid of a unit of 50.

Doesn't Mortarion have a mortal wound bomb that can kill the characters supporting the conscripts in 2 player turns?

Anyway, limiting conscripts' orders is largely irrelevant to the way most people use them - to protect the fancy characters from other factions, since IG doesn't have any of their own.

Commissars are 30 points each. If you do this and it works once, they just grab a couple extra for redundancy and/or are more careful using tanks to block line of sight.

A 7" mortal wound radius will never touch a commissar unless the player running guard is brain dead.

There are no proper counters to conscripts currently. It's been discussed to death and there is a reason we see imperial armies using them consistently at the top of tournaments. Unless the unit becomes less durable, they remain broken.

Catachan preview up. Different bonuses for infantry and vehicles. The infantry bit is crap but who cares, look at that vehicle re-roll!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/25/regimental-focus-catachan-sep25gw-homepage-post-2/

 Corrode wrote:
Catachan preview up. Different bonuses for infantry and vehicles. The infantry bit is crap but who cares, look at that vehicle re-roll!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/25/regimental-focus-catachan-sep25gw-homepage-post-2/

That is really flavourful for Catachans. Stronger than the average (you finally get to put those muscles to use, soldier!) and excel with weapons like flamers, as they should. I hope they get some cool stratagems to really allow for full Catachan armies.

And Jesus christ, as if the Deathstrike hasn't always been a mindless enormous amount of eggs in one basket, it now becomes an even bigger egg to fill out the basket with a 3(!)CP stratagem attached to it.
I mean, the stratagem is brutal, but crikey, that's a lot of funds into one shot.

I'll wait till the 'dex is out but that random-shot-reroll bonus for vehicles is frankly all i've ever spent CP on with my superheavy tank regiment.

It looks like the 2nd Concordian ISHTR is becoming a Catachan-doctrine copycat.

Catachans sound pretty fun for a melee blob based list. Might actually make it kind of worth it to charge after rapid firing with an infantry squad against the right targets!

 DoomMouse wrote:
Catachans sound pretty fun for a melee blob based list. Might actually make it kind of worth it to charge after rapid firing with an infantry squad against the right targets!

S3 to S4 is a pretty big deal. You go up a step on both T3 and T4 targets, which covers basically any troop choice in the game.

Honestly Catachans sound strong for damn near any list type.

That's why I'm saying "I hope the other Regiment rules are this strong." If GW manages to balance them and make them ALL this appealing...

... WOW it's gonna be fun.

It'd be neat to see guard play like they are advertised, rather than a ton of cheap bodies and tauroxes, backed up by beta-strike plasma and manticores hiding inside of buildings.

"Want to ensure the Shadowsword’s volcano cannon puts down a pesky Renegade Knight? Pick the Catachans for your regiment."

So the question about the doctrines applying to SHVs is answered.

 Asmodai wrote:
"Want to ensure the Shadowsword’s volcano cannon puts down a pesky Renegade Knight? Pick the Catachans for your regiment."

So the question about the doctrines applying to SHVs is answered.

10/10 would play 2ndC ISHTR again...

... oh wait I do it every week.

I'm so excited for this 'dex now.

Wow! Catachans look to be awesome in every part of the list! Infantry, Armor, and artillery! I can't wait to see the rest! Something tells me we aren't going to care about a Conscript nerf by the time we get the book.

My lord, the Catachan trait affects infantry and vehicles. I sure hope that's the trend for the other regimental traits.

Well, neither one benefits from the full trait, so it's more like they have two separate traits in one. One for infantry, a different one for vehicles.

I like this trait. I'd like to see more like it. Maybe one where the vehicle benefit is ignoring the penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'll wait till the 'dex is out but that random-shot-reroll bonus for vehicles is frankly all i've ever spent CP on with my superheavy tank regiment.

It looks like the 2nd Concordian ISHTR is becoming a Catachan-doctrine copycat.

You don´t have to spent CP, you have just to choose catachan as regiment.
It´s a really good one, wondering if the bonuses of the other regiments are also that nice.

Well, I don't think I've been so happy to have been proven wrong about something. Seeing us get traits for both our armor and our infantry (and them being different things that make sense for each part of the army) is really cool.

No idea what they'll do to make 8 different regiment traits for both vehicles and infantry though. The Catachan one alone is one of the more involved "Chapter tactic" style rules we've ever seen, if every regiment on the list gets one like this we'll be in for a sweet codex.

I can't help but feel infantry costs will be going back up a point though. These are some pretty decent buffs when you consider a guardsman's basic statline. That +1 S for Catachans helps them out quite a lot in close combat and will help make them surprisingly punchy on countercharges for no more than guardsmen cost. They're not going to drag down entire genestealer units or anything, but on things like your officers and sarge's with power weapons they'll hit like space marines.

Firefox1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'll wait till the 'dex is out but that random-shot-reroll bonus for vehicles is frankly all i've ever spent CP on with my superheavy tank regiment.

It looks like the 2nd Concordian ISHTR is becoming a Catachan-doctrine copycat.

You don´t have to spent CP, you have just to choose catachan as regiment.
It´s a really good one, wondering if the bonuses of the other regiments are also that nice.

Right, that's my point. With the Index, I've really never spent a CP except on re-rolls for shots-fired.

Now I don't even have to do that.

I love it.

I feel that while they mostly did a good job mating strong, worthwhile rules with fluff, I think giving vehicles such a heavy emphasis is pretty off for Catachans. Perhaps, instead of all vehicles, it should be all units, but just flamers, heavy flamers, and inferno cannons? I mean, I want better Russes and Basilisks as much as the next IG player (and my God, Russes/Basilisks do need this boost), but just doesn't feel right for that to apply to Catachans, of all regiments.

I wonder what they're going to do with the Auxilia, Ogryns and Bullgryns and even ratlings.

They currently can't take orders, because they're not allowed to be the same regiment as the leaders... but that would mean they aren't allowed to be Catachan Ogryn either, and so wouldn't get legion traits.

So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I feel that while they mostly did a good job mating strong, worthwhile rules with fluff, I think giving vehicles such a heavy emphasis is pretty off for Catachans. Perhaps, instead of all vehicles, it should be all units, but just flamers, heavy flamers, and inferno cannons? I mean, I want better Russes and Basilisks as much as the next IG player (and my God, Russes/Basilisks do need this boost), but just doesn't feel right for that to apply to Catachans, of all regiments.

Yeah, im not sure about them getting vehicle rules, next thing you know Steel Legion is going to get reorll 1s in close combat and -1 to hit.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

They may get the "all infantry treat -1AP weapons as having -0AP" trait, as this has been used in Admech and GW seem to like reusing traits where possible.

The "-1 to hit if outside 12 inches" trait has been used for all the codex releases so far I think, so I expect that'll be used again too. Don't know who'll get it though, I'm not too hot on IG regiment fluff

I've always loved guard but I find myself hesitant to jump in and start an army of them as their model line seems so mixed up. They are incredibly dated and lack a range of option in the various lines. I'd love to collect Vals or Mords but with such limited lines I can't bring myself to. Shame.

Oh man, tomorrow we get a look at nobody's favorite imperial guard regiment, the Boring-ian Iron Guard! Can't wait to see what kind of static gunline buffs the static gunline subfaction of the gunline faction gets!

Come on GW, their hats are barely the size of their heads! Show us the Vostroyans! (I'm kidding, I know I'll see it within a week )

until then, I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed and continue chanting under my breath "no morale buff trait, no morale buff trait, give the cadians the stupid morale buff trait, anything but a morale buff trait..."

Fancy guns, fancy armor, even a close combat buff would be amusing and allow me to use all my special melee sergeant sculpts, just don't give your best looking model range a boring trait!

People complaining about Catachan tanks getting a buff need to remember that out of the 3 Regiments to get a superheavy tank special character for use in-game, Catachans were one.

Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

Niiru wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

They may get the "all infantry treat -1AP weapons as having -0AP" trait, as this has been used in Admech and GW seem to like reusing traits where possible.

The "-1 to hit if outside 12 inches" trait has been used for all the codex releases so far I think, so I expect that'll be used again too. Don't know who'll get it though, I'm not too hot on IG regiment fluff

Honestly, I can't see Guard getting that trait unless it's on infantry/veteran squads only. Could you imagine the salt if a 50 man unit of Conscripts was -1 to hit outside of 12"? Get Celestine and a Astropath in there for near Death Guard resilience.

While this doctrine is nice it's not incredibly powerful for most vehicles. It's easy to imagine better ones -- suppose a regiment gets the Salamanders' tactic, for example. For weapons with d6 shots, this doctrine is a 21% increase in firepower if you re-roll any result less than 4. That sounds pretty nice on paper -- it's a bit better than "re-roll hit rolls of 1" -- but of course it only applies to these weapons. For weapons with d3 shots, it's exactly as good as re-rolling 1s to hit (17% better). For a weapon with 2d6 shots it's only a little bit better than re-rolling 1s to hit. For a gun like the Basilisk's, it's only about 11% better. And then it does nothing for guns that don't roll for shots. There are vehicles it's great for, like a Hellhound with multiple flamers, but unless you're also putting heavy flamers on your Russes, it's not a great increase in their overall damage output.

It's almost irrelevant for something like a Shadowsword, because the benefit it provides a unit is only ever worth 1 CP, and the potential benefit it provides is worth much less. If you roll a 3 for the volcano cannon, are you really going to re-roll and risk a 1? You get almost all of the benefit here by re-rolling just 1s and 2s, but of course you only roll a 1 or a 2 one-third of the time. On average you can get these re-rolls for 6 turns for your Shadowsword by spending only 2 CP. You get more than half of the benefit of the doctrine by only re-rolling 1s, and of course this costs you half as much CP, on average. If another regiment has some other sort of firepower buff for Shadowswords, it will probably make sense to take that regiment and then get your shot re-rolls the old-fashioned way.

There are particular compositions that will benefit a lot from this, but it's definitely too soon to say that Catachans are "the tank regiment".

Niiru wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

It's worth noting that the community article that just went up explicitly says "Every Regimental Doctrine applies to both your infantry and vehicles". Now, some of them might be pretty bad for one or the other -- AdMech got one that lets them re-roll 1s in the Fight phase -- but even without this I think it'd be pretty surprising to have most doctrines doing something for all units and then one that does nothing for half of the codex. So far GW has seemed pretty committed to making sure that every Chapter Tactic type rule gives some benefit to almost every unit that gets access to it. Even some of the very limited ones like Black Legion's at least give +1 Ld to everything.

So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

Doctoralex wrote:
So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

You're playing guard. We get command points like nobody's business! If you're starting with less than fifteen you're not even trying. Hah!

Doctoralex wrote:
So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

If it doesn't fire, does it actually fire?

Ok let's look at this in detail:

First, the following is written about the Deathstrike's special rule. The Hour is Nigh:
The Deathstrike Missile cannot be fired normally in the shooting phase or in overwatch. In a friendly shooting phase, if you wish to fire the Deathstrike Missile, roll a D6 and add the battle round number. If the total result is 8 or more, you can fire the Deathstrike Missile during this shooting phase.

The Strategem says:
-Use this strategem before you fire a Deathstrike Missile.

So... I don't know. If I read this rule correctly, you can choose to 'upgrade' the missile right before it fires. However, it doesn't really make sense that a missile suddenly turns in a Vortex Missile just before you fire it.

You have just answered your own question.

You have to successfully get an 8+ to be able to fire the Deathstrike Missile.

Between getting the 8+ and declaring you're going to fire it, that's when you would use the Stratagem.

I guess it is still open for interpretation, though I doubt it will force you to spend 3 CP, only for the missile to not fire.

Another question: the additional rule 'If a model is wounded but survives, on a 6+ they take an additional D6 Mortal wounds'.

-Is this only for the 'AoE' affected targets, or the main targets too?

-And even though it says the model will suffer D6 mortal wounds, will these wounds spill over to other targets because they are mortal wounds?

Doctoralex wrote:
I guess it is still open for interpretation, though I doubt it will force you to spend 3 CP, only for the missile to not fire.

Another question: the additional rule 'If a model is wounded but survives, on a 6+ they take an additional D6 Mortal wounds'.

-Is this only for the 'AoE' affected targets, or the main targets too?

-And even though it says the model will suffer D6 mortal wounds, will these wounds spill over to other targets because they are mortal wounds?

Raw I would say that they would spill over.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

Regarding Vostroyans, I suspect we'll see something playing into the more mechanized style of warfare, the higher average quality of their equipment (both weapons and armor) and their strong ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

For any not aware of the fluff, Vostroya is governed by a joint council of both Adeptus Mechanicus and standard imperial government. They work very closely together and have strong ties as a result, which shows in the quality of the arms and armament of the Firstborn regiment of Vostroya. I am intensely curious to see what they get in terms of rules, and stratagems.

Also, on a personal note as to why I love playing the Firstborn.

They just know, they don't think, they KNOW, that they are better than any other regiment. They're arrogant, but back up that arrogance when boots hit the ground and LOVE to show off against other regiments they do battle beside.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

The issue is that it isn't exactly hard to spam officers or squads.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

You can spam a bunch of officers for dirt cheap though, so you're unlikely to be short on orders.

And 50 conscripts with First Rank Fire and their current points costs etc etc are already very, very good. So giving them a free +1S, and so letting them wound space marines and orks on a 4+ instead of a 5+, or eldar on a 3+ instead of a 4+... I mean they'd basically be the best of both worlds. Loads of shooting attacks, and still able to deal damage in melee if you try and attack them.

I'm not saying a single human with +1S is scary. But a big blob of guardsmen, who are already annoyingly powerful, also getting +1S, is. As a whole, they would be way too overpowered. And this is just the catachan doctrine, who knows what others might get.

Unless, they get a points increase.

Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

 crimsondave wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

To be honest, I thought scions were the worst offenders. Didn't even occur to me conscripts might be considered overpowered until I read it on dakka ha.

So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

To be honest, I thought scions were the worst offenders. Didn't even occur to me conscripts might be considered overpowered until I read it on dakka ha.

Not Conscripts in specific that are dominating the tourney scene, though to come away from some of the discussions here you'd wonder why anyone would field anything else - super unkillable all-destroying ubermen that they are portrayed to be.

No, in tourney lists the problem is clearly that they're exceptionally durable bubble wrap/objective holders for a pretty efficient points cost. Such as the GT winner's list here. Conscripts are just letting him bubble wrap and screen his real damage dealers extremely effectively (such as the nine Smite-dealing Psychic units/characters) - they're not winning him the tourney single-handed as the hyperbolic try to claim.

 Cptskillet wrote:
So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

It does apply to HQ infantry as well, yes. Not sure how you're gonna get Straken into position to do any punching, though.

Straken is still probably going to be more valuable for his +1 attack bubble than his own melee output, especially since +1 on a 1-attack model is a fairly big deal.

It will basically turn his fist into an autocannon hit though. Throw in a Priest for good measure. Since infantry squads are 10 models you can pile an infantry squad, Straken, and a Priest into a Chimera for surprise assault Guard.

Of course reliance on a special character means you can only pull that stunt on one part of the board, probably with two, maybe three squads at most. The look on your opponent's face when he realizes Fix Bayonets isn't a joke, though...

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Cptskillet wrote:
So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

It does apply to HQ infantry as well, yes. Not sure how you're gonna get Straken into position to do any punching, though.

My plan was to stick him with some bullgryns, and nork and jolly right up the middle and bounce those dang rounds off his abs of steel.

Heaven forbid ig win tournaments after all.

 ross-128 wrote:
Straken is still probably going to be more valuable for his +1 attack bubble than his own melee output, especially since +1 on a 1-attack model is a fairly big deal.

It will basically turn his fist into an autocannon hit though. Throw in a Priest for good measure. Since infantry squads are 10 models you can pile an infantry squad, Straken, and a Priest into a Chimera for surprise assault Guard.

Of course reliance on a special character means you can only pull that stunt on one part of the board, probably with two, maybe three squads at most. The look on your opponent's face when he realizes Fix Bayonets isn't a joke, though...

Interesting concept though. Assuming the priest+straken combo, popping out of a chimera in charge range, that would be (doing this in my head so it might be a bit off):

20 x S3 shots at BS4, from the 10 infantry.
31 x S4 attacks at WS4, from the 10 infantry.
6 more S7 attacks from Straken at WS2.
4 more S3 attacks at WS4 from priest.

With orders giving them 20 more S3 shots on the turn before they charge, and then on their next turn (if they are alive, or more likely if their enemy hasn't melted yet) getting up to 31 bonus S4 attacks. I suspect fix bayonets will not see much use, as it can only be used in the shooting phase.

Still though, 40 shots + 31 attacks isn't bad. Compared to a boyz squad of similar size:

10x S4 shots at BS5 from the 10 boyz
30 x S4 attacks at WS3.

And that's it, cos you can't fit anything else into a trukk. But if you *could* add in a warboss, you'd get 4 more S6 attacks at WS2. So Straken would actually put up a decent fight against the warboss, for similar points.


I'm not saying that this makes the infantry squad better in melee than orks, though it makes it pretty close in this situation. But the infantry would win the fight, just because of the ability to shoot a whole bunch of shots before attacking. They're also 2 points cheaper than boyz, and have a better transport.



It's 3:30am I really shouldn't try thinking at this time of night.

After writing all this, do I think that infantry + straken etc combo is overpowered? No, I think it would be damn fun to play, and for the points it all adds up pretty nicely. All this highlights is how weak Orks are right now, but because we were talking about melee strength it was the comparison that came to mind.

I almost deleted this because it ended up a ramble, but I left it because why not.

Edited: because I gave the orks the bonus of having both a shoota and a choppa, which they can't have. They can either get more shots, or get more attacks, not both. So I left them with the more attacks, as that is their strength. Means they lose out even more though. For the points, that IG squad in chimera is pretty nasty.

You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

I'd like alternate Pith helmet heads and plastic Mordian Iron Guard so I can make Praetorian Guard.

Victoria Miniatures has an entire range of Praetorian Guard proxies. Great Models.

I don't think so. It says the model rather then the unit.

(about vortex missile mortal wound dmg)

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You use the Chimera not for the movement, but for it's metal boxiness, to stop them disappearing to any trivial anti infantry firepower before they get into position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

Welcome to Dakka

MaxT wrote:

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You use the Chimera not for the movement, but for it's metal boxiness, to stop them disappearing to any trivial anti infantry firepower before they get into position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

Welcome to Dakka

But you can get another twenty men for the price of a chimera. It's kinda the same issue orks run into.

Niiru wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

Technically any regiment is extremely specialized in what it does: ie: all tanks, all artillery, all infantry. A mixed force you see on the tabletop would not be something you'd see via the fluff unless you have 2 or 3 separate regiments working in tandem with each other. It is very much possible to have a planet supply both infantry regiments, tank regiments, artillery regiments, and so on. Fluffwise after all, Valhalla has its human waves and Chenkov, while we have also seen through the Cain books that it provides both Artillery (Cain's first regiment), Mechanized Infantry (the 597th), and Tank companies (there was a Valhallan tank company in one of the books, I forget the name, but from the one where he meets an old commissar "buddy").

The rules of them effecting both Infantry and Vehicles is a way to make both infantry blobbers, tread heads, and everything in between happy. Though now they just need to errata Space Marine vehicles to do the same.

SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

They don't really, though. If you look at AdMech, they also only affect INFANTRY and Walkers... because AdMech only has Walker vehicles.
It's the insane amount of different vehicles that the Space Marines have access to that necessitates the restriction.
That said, I would have assumed that super heavies would be out as far as Regiments goes, but it seems they are in. I have faith they'll still balance the army as a whole around whatever they do for Regiments... eventually.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Corrode wrote:
SM Chapter Tactics not affecting vehicles is a design choice, not a mistake.

ooh, is the complaining about that starting up already? Let me get my tear cup, I've been keeping it ready once I saw that after two editions of being the only faction with chapter tactics, space marines now have the most restrictive chapter tactics out of everybody.

I mean, "you had it good last edition so now you should suffer" is just a terrible attitude. And it does seem like SMs and CSMs got kinda screwed on a bunch of their vehicles not getting traits, at least if the Guard codex is how most others will be done (and if Guard are unique in getting traits on almost everything except flyers, that also raises questions). Like, why? It's pretty hard to think of a game balance justification for this in most cases, unless they're worried about the interaction of Tactics and future Primarch auras. But even there I'm not sure what the important difference could be between a Predator and a Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought. I guess with CSMs they had to worry about stacking buffs on DAEMON vehicles.

The best argument I can come up with for the difference is fluff -- part of what GW wants to accomplish with Chapter Tactics is to encourage people to bring fluffy armies. Their vision of a fluffy Marine army involves lots of actual Marines, with the units that don't get Tactics playing more of a supporting role. Meanwhile they have no problem with Guard armies that consist entirely of tanks.

So tell me again why superheavies would be out as far as regiments go?

Superheavy tank regiments absolutely exist in the fluff, and also absolutely recruit from the same home worlds as tank regiments, artillery regiments, or infantry regiments.

I don't really get why they'd be any different.

 argonak wrote:
You're using their faction special character to get those bonuses, so I should hope it would be nice. He's essentially a chapter master.

I don't know how c chimeras are worthwhile though. You could use move move move to go 12" + 2d6 instead. Use the chimera points for more men.

You can't assault after a Move order, because it forces you to run and IG don't have a special rule for charging after running.

So you'd still be waiting until turn 2 to make the charge, the only difference is whether the enemy spends that turn shooting your assault squad or a Chimera. Considering how squishy Guardsmen in the open are, you'd much rather they shoot the Chimera.

Edit: also the Chimera lets you spend the first turn shooting with just over half the squad inside, since an assault squad is probably a bunch of lasguns and maybe a flamer in their one special weapon slot.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'm preparing for the outrage about to hit these forums from those who went and bought 150 guardsmen for using as conscript spam about to find out that they are BS5+ and can't benefit from orders/commissar lol (my own guess, not fact or confirmed)

Conscript nerf was inevitable, what exactly they do with them should be interesting.

No joke, I had a friend who nearly did this but luckily spent his money on a verity of other units.

Mordian preview is up and came with this bit that appears to a straight up rules buff

Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex.



I've played well over a dozen games with AM and I've only ever moved a Leman Russ once. This could be useful.

I'm hoping that GW only lightly nerfs conscripts so that they're still usable. If they do drop an exterminatus on them those models won't be wasted though: 70% of the IG infantry roster is the same model.

Edit: Also that's great news about the LRBT, absolutely amazing!

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Mordian preview is up and came with this bit that appears to a straight up rules buff

Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex.



I've played well over a dozen games with AM and I've only ever moved a Leman Russ once. This could be useful.

To clarify - only the turret weapons can fire on the move without penalty. The hull and sponson weapons (and a pintle Heavy Stubber) would suffer the move and shoot penalties.

Wowowowwowowwoowwowowowowow

I am terrifed to see what they do to Baneblades.

The new stratagem is OP with them: Baneblades can always fire overwatch and can never be prevented except by psychic powers (i.e. having an enemy unit within 1" does not stop them from firing their weapons).

Now they can do it hitting on 4+ if they're mordian, 5+ if they're catachan.

Whaaaatt

GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

But it seems the powerlevel of regiment rules vary much. The Catachan reroll is good. The Mordian overwatch bonus is...not that amazing.
May be it depends on the army composition.

Firefox1 wrote:
GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

They clarified on Facebook that it was just the turret weapon.

Still, being able to fire the turret weapon twice makes having that bonus on the turret weapon more valuable.

Though that does mean I'm still never putting multi-meltas on the sponsons. I'd load it up with heavy bolters. Cheap, generally okay vs everything, fires enough shots that it's not entirely useless at -1 to hit. Or heavy flamers if you're *really* planning to get close, though if they're still 17 points each I'd be reluctant.

This does mean your turret weapon will very much be a primary now though. 2d6 on the BC/Executioner, the Exterminator back up to 8. And then there's the Punisher with an absolutely horrifying 40.

Keep in mind you dont *have* to move, and not moving at all still allows you to shoot the turret gun twice. And sponsons *do* add a decent bit of firepower.

Technically with that stratagem and the Mordian doctrines, I think you can actually hit on 4+ Overwatch. All this bodes well for me as custom regiment is a Mordian trained, Cadian armed regiment.

 Tyr13 wrote:
Keep in mind you dont *have* top move, and not moving at all still allows you to shoot the turret gun twice. And sponsons *do* add a decent bit of firepower.

This just means you can have tanks like demolishers and punishers really bring the heat while escorting your infantry squads to grab objectives. I like it! Of course my fav has been and will continue to be the classic LRBT because it can reliably wound just about anything with a good amount of shots.

That Russ buff alone might get me to commit to 8th. That's pretty significant.

Asmodai wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:
GW is contradicting with itself.
The rulesbox cleary mentions only the turret weapon while the text says "while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move", which would include sponsons.
Shooting the turret weapon twice is good but i really would like that sponsons would be worth it.

They clarified on Facebook that it was just the turret weapon.

Ah thanks. Don´t use FB. Would be nice of them to correct their text.

ross-128 wrote:Still, being able to fire the turret weapon twice makes having that bonus on the turret weapon more valuable.

Though that does mean I'm still never putting multi-meltas on the sponsons. I'd load it up with heavy bolters. Cheap, generally okay vs everything, fires enough shots that it's not entirely useless at -1 to hit. Or heavy flamers if you're *really* planning to get close, though if they're still 17 points each I'd be reluctant.

This does mean your turret weapon will very much be a primary now though. 2d6 on the BC/Executioner, the Exterminator back up to 8. And then there's the Punisher with an absolutely horrifying 40.

Agreed.
HBs ftw. I can´t see flamers on them as they are too short ranged and
1. you could either try to move fast and get them going, while not making use of double shooting or
2. move halve speed and make use of firing the turret weapon twice and not using the flamers.

Flamers are way too pricey for defensive weaponry and which turret, that one would take, is that bad that you would prefer no. 1?

Maybe the Exterminator get it´s value up before shooting twice. Either way some choice are way too bad to be considered.

Imagine a catachan BC/Executioner.

Yeah, I think really there's three main secondary loadouts to consider:
1: HB spam, for when you're planning to grinding advance up the board.
2: HB+LC, for when you're probably not going to move and want that extra anti-tank shot.
3: PC+LC, for when you are absolutely positively not going anywhere, want solid anti-tank out to 36" (and a LC out to 48" at least), and have a way to mitigate Gets Hot rolls.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I think really there's three main secondary loadouts to consider:
1: HB spam, for when you're planning to grinding advance up the board.
2: HB+LC, for when you're probably not going to move and want that extra anti-tank shot.
3: PC+LC, for when you are absolutely positively not going anywhere, want solid anti-tank out to 36" (and a LC out to 48" at least), and have a way to mitigate Gets Hot rolls.

Im HBs all day every day unless its a tank commander. Then I take a LC up front, but still HB on the side. Its too much of a point investment to take MM sponsons and hope you get in range unless your meta is all deep striking. PCs aren't bad either but I still like cheap first when it comes to all of my Guard units.

I like MMs and PC (for my LR that can receive orders), but with the ability to rack up 8 executioner shots or 2D6 Cannon shots, HBs are looking like the better choice. It the turret can push out enough AntiTank, maybe HBs will be worth it.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I think really there's three main secondary loadouts to consider:
1: HB spam, for when you're planning to grinding advance up the board.
2: HB+LC, for when you're probably not going to move and want that extra anti-tank shot.
3: PC+LC, for when you are absolutely positively not going anywhere, want solid anti-tank out to 36" (and a LC out to 48" at least), and have a way to mitigate Gets Hot rolls.

I'll probably run HB/lascannon since that's the classic loadout but I can see a point to every combo except maybe plasma cannons. My plasmastorm executioner has them and 2d3 plasma shots that burn half your health and crap out for the rest of the game on a 1 is pretty brutal. Firing the turret twice instead is far more useful and at that point I'd just prefer heavy Bolters or Flamers to defend itself with.

They also teased the next Regiment, the Vostoyans:

Tomorrow, we’ll be looking at the Vostroyans, an army designed to defeat your enemies by outranging them – find out more tomorrow!

For Infantry, my money is on getting something similar to the Death Guard where they can Rapid Fire out to 18".

In addition, the important tidbit from the 'Form Firing Squad' part is that it's an Order, not a special ability... obviously indicates that at least one part of the Orders chart is going to have Regiment-specific Orders.

I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

Wow your opponents played like ass if you got 4 marines per template. I run a tank company and was lucky to get 3 - because I could only get 3 if I didn't scatter.

And now the Leman Russ is the same as it was an edition ago (by your reckoning)... BUT...

1) has to option to sacrifice firepower to go faster
2) Does not have to snap fire its secondary weapons when it moves (seriously, -1 is not nearly as bad as snapfiring).

In addition, the important tidbit from the 'Form Firing Squad' part is that it's an Order, not a special ability... obviously indicates that at least one part of the Orders chart is going to have Regiment-specific Orders.

Thats already been mentioned by GW though, each regiment gets a single, unique order.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

People are getting excited about double tapping Russes because it is an amazing buff. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Knight's rapid fire battle cannon you KNOW how painful it is. 7th Edition Russ BCs are absolutely garbage compared to a RFBC. The LRBT now effectively has a Knight level weapon on it for no additional cost, in fact it got CHEAPER. Not to mention the other LR variants which also tremendously benefit from this. I don't see how you can be cynical about this.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

People are getting excited about double tapping Russes because it is an amazing buff. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Knight's rapid fire battle cannon you KNOW how painful it is. 7th Edition Russ BCs are absolutely garbage compared to a RFBC. The LRBT now effectively has a Knight level weapon on it for no additional cost, in fact it got CHEAPER. Not to mention the other LR variants which also tremendously benefit from this. I don't see how you can be cynical about this.

This! 8 shot exterminator cannon, 2d6 shot eradicator, 40 shot punisher, 2d6 shot demolisher? Sure its random but can you imagine the amount of pain you can hand out with 8-12 (Catachan) Battle cannon shots? Or 8-12 Executioner shots? 40 f-ing punisher shots????????? Heck even 2 shots from the once great Vanquisher seems ok, (lets hope it becomes D3 shots, because seriously, its awful). The real fun comes from running Leman Russ annihilators from FW, they are pricey but thats 5 lascannon shots from a platform thats cheaper and tougher than a predator.

Sadly even the Leman Russ Annihilator can´t take lascannons in the sponsons.

Firefox1 wrote:
Sadly even the Leman Russ Annihilator can´t take lascannons in the sponsons.

Yeah then it would be 7 shots per shooting phase *PFFFFT*

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

People are getting excited about double tapping Russes because it is an amazing buff. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Knight's rapid fire battle cannon you KNOW how painful it is. 7th Edition Russ BCs are absolutely garbage compared to a RFBC. The LRBT now effectively has a Knight level weapon on it for no additional cost, in fact it got CHEAPER. Not to mention the other LR variants which also tremendously benefit from this. I don't see how you can be cynical about this.

This! 8 shot exterminator cannon, 2d6 shot eradicator, 40 shot punisher, 2d6 shot demolisher? Sure its random but can you imagine the amount of pain you can hand out with 8-12 (Catachan) Battle cannon shots? Or 8-12 Executioner shots? 40 f-ing punisher shots????????? Heck even 2 shots from the once great Vanquisher seems ok, (lets hope it becomes D3 shots, because seriously, its awful). The real fun comes from running Leman Russ annihilators from FW, they are pricey but thats 5 lascannon shots from a platform thats cheaper and tougher than a predator.

Well, I'm still waiting to see if they changed any of the turret profiles. Yes, they did double the strength of the Vanquisher, Eradicator, and Exterminator, but since every option was doubled they are still just plane worse. I would still take a battle cannon over any of those 3.



Another note on the internal balance of the Russ is the relationship between the tank commander and a normal tank. From what we know, the issue of the commander usually being the superior choice is still there. I wonder if that price reduction will include the commanders?. If not, that could help the internal balance. 35 points for better bs is a typically a no brainier. 40-50, maybe not.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I do not know why people are getting all excited about doubletapping Russ weapons - unless GW have done something to make them not suck as much now.
Back in 5th/6th I could reliably get 4 kills with the battlecannon when firing into MEQ's, now I struggle to get 2. All this buff will be doing is restoring the cannon (statistically) back to just slightly below where it was an edition ago. You are still rolling 1d6 worth of shots, each 'firing' is still only averaging 1.4 dead MEQ's, just now you are able to do it twice over, provided you sacrifice your mobility.

The Russ needs to be putting more shots downrange (or even better an actual pieplate again) and it needs to be cheaper before it can be truly considered fixed.

People are getting excited about double tapping Russes because it is an amazing buff. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Knight's rapid fire battle cannon you KNOW how painful it is. 7th Edition Russ BCs are absolutely garbage compared to a RFBC. The LRBT now effectively has a Knight level weapon on it for no additional cost, in fact it got CHEAPER. Not to mention the other LR variants which also tremendously benefit from this. I don't see how you can be cynical about this.

Its a buff but is it enough? The Russ is still expensive, and its main gun is still underperforming. A major complaing for any Guard players in the old codex was the lack of mobility, meaning that Guard units where forced back to defensive gunlines. When the codex got updated the Russ went from being a bad tank to a waste of points, especially as artillery units are almost as tough, but hit harder and do not need line of sight. Now the Russ is finally getting a buff, but at what cost? To gain any benefit it has to drop its speed dramatically.
In my opinion the Russ would have been better served with a points reduction, an increase in the number of 'shots' for blast weapons and an increase in BS.

LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

as much as I dislike Catachan (purely a looks thing and product of being stuck with them for my initial guard army, I have nothing against their fluff) I will have to run Harker in a spearhead and having him shadow some heavy hitter Russes like annihilators and punishers for that magical reroll 1s

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

5 lascannons isn't awful, but remember a space marine Mortis Dreadnought has 4 lascannons that are all more accurate and could even be Venerable. Not a great comparison IMO.

 ph34r wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

5 lascannons isn't awful, but remember a space marine Mortis Dreadnought has 4 lascannons that are all more accurate and could even be Venerable. Not a great comparison IMO.

Land Raider has better lascannons too, but we are talking about guard stuff. The cost, availability, AND the ability to spam the hell out of it are whats up for consideration, not to mention regiment rules. And lets not forget with a little psyker support those russes become 2+.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

5 lascannons isn't awful, but remember a space marine Mortis Dreadnought has 4 lascannons that are all more accurate and could even be Venerable. Not a great comparison IMO.

Land Raider has better lascannons too, but we are talking about guard stuff. The cost, availability, AND the ability to spam the hell out of it are whats up for consideration, not to mention regiment rules. And lets not forget with a little psyker support those russes become 2+.

Presumably that poster brought up Mortis Dreadnoughts, instead of Land Raiders, because they're comparable in these respects.

A Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two twin lascannons is 206 points to the 3-las Annihilator's minimum 192. It's T7 W10 3+/5++ compared to the Russ' T8 W12 3+, so they're about equally durable in the face of lascannon fire with the Russ being more durable in general. It hits on a 2+ if it doesn't move, or a 3+ if it does, which is 33% or 7% more hits than the Annihilator firing 5 shots at BS4+. We don't know anything about other regiment rules yet, but we do know that the Dreadnought gets access to the incredible Salamanders' tactic that buffs its anti-tank output by about 56% and protects it from degrading BS, or could be an Ultramarine buffed by Guilliman, etc. Or we could compare to the Xiphon which for 210 points gets 4 lascannons and an additional 3 S6 AP-2 D:3 shots, is Hard to Hit, and hits flyers on a 3+.

The point is that even if you assume Grinding Advance benefits the Annihilator, it's not notably better than other big Imperium lascannon platforms. It seems pretty good, and in line with or maybe a bit weaker than the good options available to Space Marines. It seems pretty important to contextualize this stuff when trying to work out how strong something is.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

5 lascannons isn't awful, but remember a space marine Mortis Dreadnought has 4 lascannons that are all more accurate and could even be Venerable. Not a great comparison IMO.

Land Raider has better lascannons too, but we are talking about guard stuff. The cost, availability, AND the ability to spam the hell out of it are whats up for consideration, not to mention regiment rules. And lets not forget with a little psyker support those russes become 2+.

Presumably that poster brought up Mortis Dreadnoughts, instead of Land Raiders, because they're comparable in these respects.

A Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two twin lascannons is 206 points to the 3-las Annihilator's minimum 192. It's T7 W10 3+/5++ compared to the Russ' T8 W12 3+, so they're about equally durable in the face of lascannon fire with the Russ being more durable in general. It hits on a 2+ if it doesn't move, or a 3+ if it does, which is 33% or 7% more hits than the Annihilator firing 5 shots at BS4+. We don't know anything about other regiment rules yet, but we do know that the Dreadnought gets access to the incredible Salamanders' tactic that buffs its anti-tank output by about 56% and protects it from degrading BS, or could be an Ultramarine buffed by Guilliman, etc. Or we could compare to the Xiphon which for 210 points gets 4 lascannons and an additional 3 S6 AP-2 D:3 shots, is Hard to Hit, and hits flyers on a 3+.

The point is that even if you assume Grinding Advance benefits the Annihilator, it's not notably better than other big Imperium lascannon platforms. It seems pretty good, and in line with or maybe a bit weaker than the good options available to Space Marines. It seems pretty important to contextualize this stuff when trying to work out how strong something is.

You're still comparing it to other items from other codexes, when the emphasis with these new codexes is to take mono army lists. It would be better to compare it to options available in each army to give a better idea instead of cherry picking the much better unit from another army means you need to also account for the inevitable HQ tax required to field them vs. something already present in the army (and the potential for lost CPs and stratagems). Thats what I was going for.

If the Mortis Contemptor (or other non guard unit) is that much better why I am playing Gaurd in the first place instead of just taking space marines?

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
LR Annihilator was definitely on my mind when I saw these changes. It's going to be savage now.

5 lascannons isn't awful, but remember a space marine Mortis Dreadnought has 4 lascannons that are all more accurate and could even be Venerable. Not a great comparison IMO.

Land Raider has better lascannons too, but we are talking about guard stuff. The cost, availability, AND the ability to spam the hell out of it are whats up for consideration, not to mention regiment rules. And lets not forget with a little psyker support those russes become 2+.

Presumably that poster brought up Mortis Dreadnoughts, instead of Land Raiders, because they're comparable in these respects.

A Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two twin lascannons is 206 points to the 3-las Annihilator's minimum 192. It's T7 W10 3+/5++ compared to the Russ' T8 W12 3+, so they're about equally durable in the face of lascannon fire with the Russ being more durable in general. It hits on a 2+ if it doesn't move, or a 3+ if it does, which is 33% or 7% more hits than the Annihilator firing 5 shots at BS4+. We don't know anything about other regiment rules yet, but we do know that the Dreadnought gets access to the incredible Salamanders' tactic that buffs its anti-tank output by about 56% and protects it from degrading BS, or could be an Ultramarine buffed by Guilliman, etc. Or we could compare to the Xiphon which for 210 points gets 4 lascannons and an additional 3 S6 AP-2 D:3 shots, is Hard to Hit, and hits flyers on a 3+.

The point is that even if you assume Grinding Advance benefits the Annihilator, it's not notably better than other big Imperium lascannon platforms. It seems pretty good, and in line with or maybe a bit weaker than the good options available to Space Marines. It seems pretty important to contextualize this stuff when trying to work out how strong something is.

You're still comparing it to other items from other codexes, when the emphasis with these new codexes is to take mono army lists. It would be better to compare it to options available in each army to give a better idea instead of cherry picking the much better unit from another army means you need to also account for the inevitable HQ tax required to field them vs. something already present in the army (and the potential for lost CPs and stratagems). Thats what I was going for.

If the Mortis Contemptor (or other non guard unit) is that much better why I am playing Gaurd in the first place instead of just taking space marines?

The exact same question Guard players have been asking for years now.
The point is though, that this Mortis Contemptor is better than the Russ Annihilator, and for only 8 more points. It is slightly less durable when facing massed low S fire, but against dedicated AT weapons its 5++ makes up for that. It is shooting with incredible accuracy, even when it moves. All in all it massively outperforms the Annihilator, so what does the Russ have to make up for it? Movement? Sure, but if it moves faster than 5" it loses shots, so the Contemptor is better there as well. In the end the Russ loses out heavily to a unit only 8 points more than it.

Most units with heavy weapons don't plan to move though. Is it really that much a selling point that it fired Lascannons better on the move?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Most units with heavy weapons don't plan to move though. Is it really that much a selling point that it fired Lascannons better on the move?

I mean, if they're stationary the Mortis Contemptor beats the pants off of the Russ. The Russ only looks competitive with it when we suppose that the two want to move and fire, so it seems useful to point out that, even then, the Dreadnought does more damage.

nevermind

Dionysodorus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Most units with heavy weapons don't plan to move though. Is it really that much a selling point that it fired Lascannons better on the move?

I mean, if they're stationary the Mortis Contemptor beats the pants off of the Russ. The Russ only looks competitive with it when we suppose that the two want to move and fire, so it seems useful to point out that, even then, the Dreadnought does more damage.

So, based on mathhammer, if neither moves and just shoots each other, the Mortis will do 6.481 dmg to the Russ while the Russ will only do 3.889. (if catachan it'd be around 4.8 damage from the Russ)

Lets talk about those vostroyans! 30" lasguns? Thats a hell of a lot of FRFSRF and 30" plasma guns! the extra range on heavy bolters wont hurt either. I am wondering though if this will apply at all to vehicles? 30" range multi-meltas sound pretty great! so does the Devil Dog melta cannon or the eradicator cannon!

Their order isnt too shabby either, seeing a lascannon atomize that big bad that tied up my squad to avoid fire will be extra hilarious!

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Lets talk about those vostroyans! 30" lasguns? Thats a hell of a lot of FRFSRF and 30" plasma guns! the extra range on heavy bolters wont hurt either. I am wondering though if this will apply at all to vehicles? 30" range multi-meltas sound pretty great! so does the Devil Dog melta cannon or the eradicator cannon!

Their order isnt too shabby either, seeing a lascannon atomize that big bad that tied up my squad to avoid fire will be extra hilarious!

It does apply to vehicles.

But I don't think it is that great on vehicles. The 24" range weapons, sure, but I'm just not sure. My superheavies are more excited about the Catachan doctrine than the Vostroyan one I think.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Lets talk about those vostroyans! 30" lasguns? Thats a hell of a lot of FRFSRF and 30" plasma guns! the extra range on heavy bolters wont hurt either. I am wondering though if this will apply at all to vehicles? 30" range multi-meltas sound pretty great! so does the Devil Dog melta cannon or the eradicator cannon!

Their order isnt too shabby either, seeing a lascannon atomize that big bad that tied up my squad to avoid fire will be extra hilarious!

It does apply to vehicles.

But I don't think it is that great on vehicles. The 24" range weapons, sure, but I'm just not sure. My superheavies are more excited about the Catachan doctrine than the Vostroyan one I think.

excellent point, this doctrine helps the infantry far more than it does anything else. Its nice to see that these choices really change how each army plays. Catachan want to get into combat with heavy support, Mordians want to lock step in tight formations nut to butt with their vehicles, and vostroyans want to fire and fall back to take advantage of superior range.

Leman Russ Battle Tank, with a hull heavy flamer (to be fair I'd still stick with a H.Bolter).

With Grinding Advance.

In a catachan army.

1d6 shots with a free re-roll on how many shots!

Twice.

Also now more accurate and has more shots than that lethal RFBC.

Simple, but effective. I'd say the greatest benefit is seen on 24" and 36" weapons. 48" sees some benefit as well, mostly by allowing a back-line unit to sit further back while still hitting most of the enemy deployment zone. So it's great for most infantry weapons, while on vehicles it mostly benefits plasma cannons, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, storm bolters, and the 24" Russ weapons.

30" demolisher cannons and punisher cannons might be a fun time.

Oh god Punisher Russes with HBs are the real winners of this strategem. a threat range of 30" with 49 shots.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/27/regiment-focus-vostroyan-sep27gw-homepage-post-2/

Vostroyans are up!

So getting an extra 6" on heavy and rapid fire weapons is pretty awesome. Lasguns can now rapid fire up to 15", and it gives a little extra range to lascannons and the like (not that you can't almost hit anything with 48" range)

Repel the enemy seems pretty cool to think I can blast a lascannon shot into close combat, but given how guardsmen usually die to a stiff breeze I don't see his really being realistic. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it means you can fire into another close combat, which is amazing.

The little CP trick with the scout move seems kind of meh.

Tomorrow we will see Valhallans and they hint at showing us the conscript nerf.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:

Repel the enemy seems pretty cool to think I can blast a lascannon shot into close combat, but given how guardsmen usually die to a stiff breeze I don't see his really being realistic. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it means you can fire into another close combat, which is amazing.

It's not that, it just lets your squad shoot the unit they're in CC with. Note the 'must target enemy units within 1"' restriction.

It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gest to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/27/regiment-focus-vostroyan-sep27gw-homepage-post-2/

Vostroyans are up!

So getting an extra 6" on heavy and rapid fire weapons is pretty awesome. Lasguns can now rapid fire up to 15", and it gives a little extra range to lascannons and the like (not that you can't almost hit anything with 48" range)

Repel the enemy seems pretty cool to think I can blast a lascannon shot into close combat, but given how guardsmen usually die to a stiff breeze I don't see his really being realistic. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it means you can fire into another close combat, which is amazing.

The little CP trick with the scout move seems kind of meh.

Tomorrow we will see Valhallans and they hint at showing us the conscript nerf.

You know what else they hint at? "a return of a classic and much loved rule..." I will assume that will be "Send in the Next Wave!" which was kinda inevitable with how the other armies got them. I will assume that its going to pretty strict or that conscripts are going to be nerfed enough to make it necessary.

Yeah thats what I figured... Which will almost never get used because anytime a squad of guardsmen is charged by any competent melee unit they'll be gone at the end of that turn.

It could be SITNW or it could be Combined Squads.

I totally see the Valhallan article being the one that introduces the ability for Infantry Squads to become huge phalanxes on the table-top, stampeding over everything with sheer human-wave-ness.

SITNW was originally an ability on a Valhallan commander though, so that also makes sense for them.

Razerous wrote:
Leman Russ Battle Tank, with a hull heavy flamer (to be fair I'd still stick with a H.Bolter).

With Grinding Advance.

In a catachan army.

1d6 shots with a free re-roll on how many shots!

Twice.

Also now more accurate and has more shots than that lethal RFBC.

Grinding Advance applies to the turret weapon only.

It's gotta be send in the next wave or perhaps platoons.

If it's send in the next wave it makes sense that Chenkov and the Valhallans would be the time to bring it back. If it's platoons it still makes sense because that would inevitably be a massive nerf to conscripts since a classic platoon forced you to bring a command squad and 2 infantry squads before you got access to the conscripts.

Either one I'd be happy with, but if I had to pick I'd take platoons over send in the next wave. Platoons helps everyone and I think any infantry player who is using infantry squads can agree we really need Combined Squads back if for nothing else my sanity so I don't need to move 9-12 squads individually and shoot individually every turn.

At least send in the next wave would mean you could take less conscripts, at least initially. Just run them up the field and it's not a big deal if they die because you can just spend a couple CP's to bring them back to deal with deepstriking or assault elements that broke through.


Also gotta say I like the vostroyans. Shame they didn't get an armor ability but honestly the ranged thing makes sense and is much more balanced than even tougher to kill guardsmen. That 6" comes up more than one would think and most of our workhorse weapons s are in the 24-36" range band. Having an ability that adds to that range is handy, especially because people will forget that sometimes and accidentally leave things where they thought they were safe only to get hit.

Or maybe it's carapace veterans? Or Sharpshooters?

It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gets to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

If you fall back your heavy weapons are at -1 to hit though no?
With this order they can fire point blank with no minus modifiers.

 Ratius wrote:

It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gets to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

If you fall back your heavy weapons are at -1 to hit though no?
With this order they can fire point blank with no minus modifiers.

Maybe get back in the fight is being changed? Every single army that can fall back and shoot on non fly units suffers a penalty right now aside from us. It's possible that we're going to receive a -1 penalty as well or perhaps even have the order removed entirely. It's definitely one of the more hated orders amongst non IG players, I know my store really dislikes it.

If that was the case, the vostroyan order makes a lot of sense

Demolishers and Multi-Melta sponsons just got a lot more attractive

Also, Vostroyan Mortar teams are going to be really obnoxious!

KestrelM1 wrote:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:

Repel the enemy seems pretty cool to think I can blast a lascannon shot into close combat, but given how guardsmen usually die to a stiff breeze I don't see his really being realistic. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it means you can fire into another close combat, which is amazing.

It's not that, it just lets your squad shoot the unit they're in CC with. Note the 'must target enemy units within 1"' restriction.

It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gest to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

Because if you are surrounded and are unable to move then you have the option of shooting your opponent in the face. (Cannot move thru enemy models even if you fall back remember.)

sfshilo wrote:

KestrelM1 wrote:
It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gest to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

Because if you are surrounded and are unable to move then you have the option of shooting your opponent in the face. (Cannot move thru enemy models even if you fall back remember.)

Ratius wrote:If you fall back your heavy weapons are at -1 to hit though no?
With this order they can fire point blank with no minus modifiers.

All these reasons promote use of Repel the Enemy, but I'll also note if you have a Senior Officer, I don't see anything preventing the unit from using Repel the Enemy and Fix Bayonets!

 KommissarKiln wrote:

sfshilo wrote:

KestrelM1 wrote:
It seems like a very niche order. Why wouldn't I just Fall Back, then order "Get Back in the Fight!"? The unit still gest to shoot and the rest of my army can shoot their target as well. Sure, they don't get to charge/fight, but what am I wanting to charge/fight with guardsmen that willingly engaged me already?

Because if you are surrounded and are unable to move then you have the option of shooting your opponent in the face. (Cannot move thru enemy models even if you fall back remember.)

Ratius wrote:If you fall back your heavy weapons are at -1 to hit though no?
With this order they can fire point blank with no minus modifiers.

All these reasons promote use of Repel the Enemy, but I'll also note if you have a Senior Officer, I don't see anything preventing the unit from using Repel the Enemy and Fix Bayonets!

You can only issue an order once to a given unit.

“VOICE OF COMMAND
This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRYunits within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT>keyword as this unit. To issue an order, pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the table below. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.”

Oh. I always seem to gloss over those pages in the indices that detail faction-wide rules and clearly missed that caveat. Am sad now.

I have a big vostroyan army and play pretty casually, and I love these traits for one reason: They give me an excuse to have my pretty models on the table and not stuffed in a transport, and I don't have to run them as conscripts without any of the interesting sculpts.

Plus, one of my leman russes is sculpted with multi-meltas and punisher cannon, and 30" range on all that is excellent.

I don't mind the order. Situational, but decent.

Now, the only thing left to do is see whether any of my spare models can be converted to hold plasma guns. I'm going to need more than the three I have!

Daedalus81 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Leman Russ Battle Tank, with a hull heavy flamer (to be fair I'd still stick with a H.Bolter).

With Grinding Advance.

In a catachan army.

1d6 shots with a free re-roll on how many shots!

Twice.

Also now more accurate and has more shots than that lethal RFBC.

Grinding Advance applies to the turret weapon only.

Yeah, a LRBT Battle cannon has 1D6 shots. Because you can re-roll one of the dice each time you fire and because you fire twice, it's basically 2D6 shots re-rolling both dice as required.

That equals some really good averages (8-9 shots per tank). That kind of damage output feels really strong, am I wrong?

You aren't wrong, but look up mort and his 16 attacks and don't feel so bad.

Reckon plasma guns and scions are going to receive a points need? They've not said anything about them yet.

Also depending on what they do with conscripts, they might get STRONGER with access to new regimental tactics, orders and strategems. They kind of have to play this carefully if they want to get the intended results they've essentially already received your choice of overwatch on 5+, S4 or 30" lasguns (whichever you think is strongest) - and they've received it for free...

The extra range on the vostroyians is nice. Really nice. But I'm a little disappointed by the lack of a carapace type thing. No biggie though.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Reckon plasma guns and scions are going to receive a points need? They've not said anything about them yet.

Also depending on what they do with conscripts, they might get STRONGER with access to new regimental tactics, orders and strategems. They kind of have to play this carefully if they want to get the intended results they've essentially already received your choice of overwatch on 5+, S4 or 30" lasguns (whichever you think is strongest) - and they've received it for free...

this is my prediciton, 1 point increase across the board for all infantry to make up for these buffs. They will return to the old price levels of previous editions.

Stop the hyperbole: do some math

A Leman Russ Battle Cannon currently averages 1 marine kill (7/2*1/2*5/6*2/3). Hull Heavy Bolter adds .5 wounds

Against a transport (T7, 3+) a Leman Russ Battle Cannon averages 1.5 wounds (7/2*1/2*2/3*2/3*2/1). Hull Heavy Bolter adds .25 wounds

Against another main tank (T8, 3+), they again average one wound (7/2*1/2*1/2*2/3*2/1). Hull Heavy Bolter adds .25 wounds

So even doubling the battle cannon output puts a Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon and Hull Heavy Bolter (162 points) killing 2.5 marines, 3.25 wounds on a transport, or 2.25 wounds on another Russ.

Somehow this doesn't scream overpowered to me. The Russ was seriously underpowered before. Even if the Russ drops the rumored 10 points it will still not be as good as an Onager. Even the Punisher only becomes better than Taurox Prime for its points at killing infantry.

I am not saying the changes aren't good. They are. I am only saying this simply puts the Russ as a competitive choice to other tank options.

On a final note, even with the Catachan reroll (which is not an extra roll drop the lowest, so it is no guarantee of more shots), if we assume that it bumps our avg to 4.5 shots instead of 3.5, it nets 1 additional wound to tanks, and about a half an additional marine.

How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

The whole detachment must be from one regiment in order to gain the bonuses.

Keep in mind, this means that if MT get any subfaction bonuses, they will need to be fielded in an only-MT detachment to qualify.

This also means that you can't have any Auxilia, Prefecta, Aeronautica, Admech, or Ministorum units in your detachment if you want a regiment bonus. So it's likely that people may have one detachment of their chosen regiment, and another with all the commissars, ogryn, psykers, techpriests, and scions they want to field.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

Like Chapter/Legion tactics, etc. You have to pick one and use it for a given detachment if you want the benefit - so if you want the Catachan regimental rules every selection in a detachment has to be Catachan. Doesn't stop you from using different regiments from different detachments, though; such as a Vostroyan Battalion detachment paired with a Catachan Spearhead detachment and a Cadian Vanguard detachment.

I have a dream that that we get Cain and his 597th Calm, professional soldiers who like tea and kicking ass.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Valhallan_597th

Sadly its a pipe dream.

the_scotsman wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

The whole detachment must be from one regiment in order to gain the bonuses.

Keep in mind, this means that if MT get any subfaction bonuses, they will need to be fielded in an only-MT detachment to qualify.

This also means that you can't have any Auxilia, Prefecta, Aeronautica, Admech, or Ministorum units in your detachment if you want a regiment bonus. So it's likely that people may have one detachment of their chosen regiment, and another with all the commissars, ogryn, psykers, techpriests, and scions they want to field.

I have a thought, I bet the Scions regiment rules will be their deep strike ability, much like elysians, that way you can't sprinkle them in to a detachment without having to make a bit of an investment.

the_scotsman wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

The whole detachment must be from one regiment in order to gain the bonuses.

Keep in mind, this means that if MT get any subfaction bonuses, they will need to be fielded in an only-MT detachment to qualify.

This also means that you can't have any Auxilia, Prefecta, Aeronautica, Admech, or Ministorum units in your detachment if you want a regiment bonus. So it's likely that people may have one detachment of their chosen regiment, and another with all the commissars, ogryn, psykers, techpriests, and scions they want to field.

Tempestus have regiment rules so they'll be exclusive, but my hope is that Auxilia, Commissars etc. will be able to be included in a <Regiment> detachment without breaking the doctrine (but not benefiting from it themselves).

 Corrode wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How does using different regiments work?

Catachan heavy weapons, cadian conscripts, Vostroyan infantry squads?

The whole detachment must be from one regiment in order to gain the bonuses.

Keep in mind, this means that if MT get any subfaction bonuses, they will need to be fielded in an only-MT detachment to qualify.

This also means that you can't have any Auxilia, Prefecta, Aeronautica, Admech, or Ministorum units in your detachment if you want a regiment bonus. So it's likely that people may have one detachment of their chosen regiment, and another with all the commissars, ogryn, psykers, techpriests, and scions they want to field.

Tempestus have regiment rules so they'll be exclusive, but my hope is that Auxilia, Commissars etc. will be able to be included in a <Regiment> detachment without breaking the doctrine (but not benefiting from it themselves).

That seems like the most sensible way to do things, whether it proves to be so ofc is another matter!

A little off topic but my God what are people thinking?

https://www.ebay.com/i/263231730060

This is the 6th or so listing I've seen of single manticores going for as high as $100+

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A little off topic but my God what are people thinking?

https://www.ebay.com/i/263231730060

This is the 6th or so listing I've seen of single manticores going for as high as $100+

Dude... the other day i saw an unpainted battlewagon on sale for £3000. Those numbers aren't wrong... I really mean £3000!!!

Hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not trying to get your hands on Vostroyan plasma gun sculpts.

Even ebay doesn't have more than 3-4! And most of them have 30+ dollar shipping lol.

What are the odds GW will put OOP IG models back into production?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What are the odds GW will put OOP IG models back into production?

With such wholehearted endorsement of those regiments ot may be a sign they're preparing to release plastics for them.

Or that they expect guard players to finally embrace the whole kitbash and sculpt thing.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What are the odds GW will put OOP IG models back into production?

With such wholehearted endorsement of those regiments ot may be a sign they're preparing to release plastics for them.

Or that they expect guard players to finally embrace the whole kitbash and sculpt thing.

Kit bash is my guess. There doesn't seem to be a good way to make dedicated kits for all of them. Maybe one here or there way down the line.

Or they'll spin up the old molds for made to order.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What are the odds GW will put OOP IG models back into production?

Not too bad actually. The mordian article showed a squad that included OOP options (the one they still sell only has lasguns and a sergeant). And the squad seemed to have been painted somewhat more recently than the one shown on the webstore as well. It seems unlike GW to repaint an old squad, so they do seem to have made some new models... provided Im correct about them being newly painted, anyway. Might just be editing.

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What are the odds GW will put OOP IG models back into production?

Not too bad actually. The mordian article showed a squad that included OOP options (the one they still sell only has lasguns and a sergeant). And the squad seemed to have been painted somewhat more recently than the one shown on the webstore as well. It seems unlike GW to repaint an old squad, so they do seem to have made some new models... provided Im correct about them being newly painted, anyway. Might just be editing.

The Mordian pic is lifted from the 2003 Imperial Guard Codex I'm afraid. I knew I'd seen it somewhere before!

So far I like the changes, but particularly I'm loving the buzz around some of these old regiments that haven't really been much more than a footnote for ages- especially Mordians, Tallarns and Valhallans which date back to 2nd edition. I hope it it triggers a bit more diversity in what people bring. It's felt to me for a while that Cadians are all there are, which is a shame since the other regiments are really cool!

I'm more hopeful than ever that one of these will get redone in plastic, or some kind of re-release. It's hard to see how they'd do more than one at once, and they'd probably do them in order of what they think would be most popular (So Mordians and Tallarns are probably out based on Dakka polls I've seen in the past...). It's worth noting that it would only require 3 small box sets for a new regiment- Command, Infantry Squad and Heavy Weapon boxes, like we have for Catachans and Cadians. The law of things dictates that plastic Tallarns will only arrive once I've finally finished painting all my metal ones.

Since I'm a mad Tallarn fan I'm stoked to see what they'll get. Previous special rules for Tallarns have been re-roll 1's to hit (from Forge World Imperial Armour 3) since they are apparently good shots. Since they're also known for tanks (battle of Tallarn, anyone?) and, well, desert raiding, I would also expect this kind of thing: (More!) Buffs to battle tanks, bonuses to movement/cover, outflanking or hidden deployment, shoot'n'scoot order (Al'Rahem had one like this before), maybe buffs to Scout Sentinels or Rough Riders...

They'd have to be pretty good to beat some of the other regiment rules though!

the_scotsman wrote:
Hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not trying to get your hands on Vostroyan plasma gun sculpts.

Even ebay doesn't have more than 3-4! And most of them have 30+ dollar shipping lol.

They are 8€ a piece in GW webstore. Now those OOP mortars, those are expensive.

It's time, lads. It's time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's time, lads. It's time.

Spoiler:

I love that pic and I was just thinking, we can match ranges with pulse rifles and we have more bodies....

Any idea what thé Scions will get? I am mot expecting them to get something new, since their DS rules and better wargear probably count for that.

At first I read their Regiment trait as only affecting lasguns and was thinking "meh" but then read it again and realised it applies to all weapons and there is definitely a lot of use out of it.

Their unique order will also make me think twice about being stuck in prolonged combats too

 Bobthehero wrote:
Any idea what thé Scions will get? I am mot expecting them to get something new, since their DS rules and better wargear probably count for that.

They could get the -1 to ranged attacks/infiltrate combo. Assuming a regiment gets those it is either them or tallarn at this point. Would be hilariously ineffective for most scion squads though.

A 2D6 BS4+ battle cannon can be expected to remove about two marine models per shot.

This makes it a very good weapon. There are very few weapons that can that. An overcharged ion accelerator with the advanced targeting systems kills one and a half. A heavy grav battle servitor kills 1.4. A Broadside's HYMPs, with advanced targeting system, kill 1.8. A 97-point pulse driver cannon with full markerlight support and stablizers deployed kills 2.8!!!!

People whose definition of a "good weapon" is "weapon that can delete units" need to realize that these weapons.units don't exist in 8th, outside of some irritating, and probably soon to be nerfed, gimmics like the Tau Commander with four fusion blasters. This is a massive design change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 perilsensitive wrote:
Stop the hyperbole: do some math

A Leman Russ Battle Cannon currently averages 1 marine kill (7/2*1/2*5/6*2/3).

.5 x .83 x .67 x 7 = 1.95. Or do you mean predoubling?

I have to admit that I'm getting a little excited by the previews! I have the feeling that this Codex will put line grunts and tanks up a little while dialing back the specialists, which feels right.

My Leman Russ' have been feeling rather meh, and now maybe they'll be relevant again!

I wonder if regiments other than Cadians/Catachan will have special characters (Creed, Pask, Straken, Harker)

I'm just excited to see Russes on the board again.

By the way: Russes. You don't use an apostrophe to make the word plural.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I'm just excited to see Russes on the board again.

By the way: Russes. You don't use an apostrophe to make the word plural.

Maybe its Leman Reese in plural?

I'm with you! Bring on the Russ!

I'm going to be breaking my Vostroyan Firstborn Guard out for the first time in 8th Edition once the codex hits. I've got over 60 painted infantry, plus 5 LRBT's of various weapons options (Turrets & Sponsons both), a couple of Valkyries, a full Command Squad, and Sergeants aplenty (one painted powerfst Sgt. even!) to play with. My only lament is I have but three Plasma Guns, four Melta Guns, four Flamers, four Sniper Rifles, and three Lascannons painted. I've still got 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter I could paint up, though. That may wind up happening sooner rather than later. I've got more than enough special weapons to do some good with, but I'll moce these Mortars to the fore shortly as they're needed now.

I am a little perturbed by the lack of 4+ armor save option available to the Vostroyan regiment, as I've always played them with Carapace armor (Veteran Squads) to represent their superior armor/equipment. I suppose that'll be an adjustment I'll have to make unless there's an option for it in the codex (Here's hoping).

I'm pleased with the rules overall, and the Order too, especially considering you can stay stuck in and still shoot to full effect. The 30" range Punisher is a lot of fun and I'm certainly looking forward to double tapping a Punisher into something.

Orks? How Many? Psh! Watch this!

*BRRRTTTT*..... *BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT*



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Have orders been confirmed to be able to be used on vehicles?

I so badly want to do a Vostroyan army but the lack of variety and the metal sculpts as put me off. Was contemplating putting together a DKOK army and using them counts-as for Vostroyan.. hmm

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Have orders been confirmed to be able to be used on vehicles?

I so badly want to do a Vostroyan army but the lack of variety and the metal sculpts as put me off. Was contemplating putting together a DKOK army and using them counts-as for Vostroyan.. hmm

There's also stuff like:

 mad robot wrote:
Coming Soon...

 Red__Thirst wrote:


Orks? How Many? Psh! Watch this!

*BRRRTTTT*..... *BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT*

Oh man I laughed out loud when I read this. My wife asked what I was laughing at, she wouldn't get it...

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:


Orks? How Many? Psh! Watch this!

*BRRRTTTT*..... *BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT*

Oh man I laughed out loud when I read this. My wife asked what I was laughing at, she wouldn't get it...

Punisher Russ.

Best Russ.

Always remember: In Imperial Vostroya, fur hat wear you!

I have a local Ork player who loves to run buckets of (poorly painted, but they ARE painted!) boyz. I'll be,..*ahem* introducing him to the Firstborn Regiment soon enough, and our Punisher, and our Eradicator, and our Exterminator,...

I've also got two fully painted Griffon Mortars I need to get the current rules for, as I have a feeling they're going to be *quite* good in the near future with the Vostroyan's regimental rules added range.

Glad I could give ya a laugh also.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Out of the three regiments we've seen so far, which would you say is the most powerful? Are they doing a good job of balancing them compared to each other or is one rising to the top? It's probably too early to be asking that if I'm honest.

Holy hell, they're worth like 30 bnib. They're not stopping production, people! It's a temporary shortage!

GW must be printing gold the way everything is selling out one thing after the other these days.

 Purifier wrote:
Holy hell, they're worth like 30 bnib. They're not stopping production, people! It's a temporary shortage!

GW must be printing gold the way everything is selling out one thing after the other these days.

They mentioned they're having production issues at their factory in the shareholder meeting report. It's probably that plus repackaging that is the problem.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm pleased with the rules overall, and the Order too, especially considering you can stay stuck in and still shoot to full effect.

I don't really see the point to that. Anything that charged you is better than you are in cc. It's rare that you're gonna want to stay stuck in with that. And anything that has charged you is probably good enough in hand to hand that he has decimated your unit enough that calling it "full effect" is probably a stretch. I think most of the time you're gonna want to back off and let other units shoot instead.

That order will mostly be a saving grace for when you need to keep the assault unit tied in combat and are praying that your unit will hold them so they can't charge the next unit in their next round.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A little off topic but my God what are people thinking?

https://www.ebay.com/i/263231730060

This is the 6th or so listing I've seen of single manticores going for as high as $100+

Folks trying to cash in after seeing that centain guard units were used in big tournies. I was looking for manticores myself as I only have one and figured i might find some cheap, but NOPE!

 Purifier wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm pleased with the rules overall, and the Order too, especially considering you can stay stuck in and still shoot to full effect.

I don't really see the point to that. Anything that charged you is better than you are in cc. It's rare that you're gonna want to stay stuck in with that. And anything that has charged you is probably good enough in hand to hand that he has decimated your unit enough that calling it "full effect" is probably a stretch. I think most of the time you're gonna want to back off and let other units shoot instead.

That order will mostly be a saving grace for when you need to keep the assault unit tied in combat and are praying that your unit will hold them so they can't charge the next unit in their next round.

I can think of several instances where this is useful, personally.

First, you opt to deny a superior CC unit the ability to close in and instead move up to charge them, thus keeping them further away from your tanks or other heavy units, and allowing for fix bayonets or other orders to be brought to bear on the charge rather than rely on get back in the fight to be used after falling back. If they survive the ensuing fight phases, then they can still shoot on your turn with the order and then fight agai with what's left. It's a great way to force attrition in my opinion.

Second, say your squads are close together and a couple of them get pulled in to combat thanks to consolidation moves when the enemy charges in and activates. Unless we're talking Berserkers or Death Company, you should still have a fair number of models left in 2 to 3 engaged squads. You can then use Repel the Enemy! to shoot and then fight instead of falling back and using the Get Back In The Fight! order to just shoot.

This allows you to stack squads close together and forces your opponent to try and charge just one squad without hitting any others and running the risk of pulling in more point blank shooting followed up by fisticuffs on top of that. Reducing amount of movement the enemy has by staying stuck in and still being able to shoot, compared to falling back and letting them further push closer in on other higher value assets, is excellent, in my opinion.

I like that the Vostroyans got the benefit of having more range on most of their weapons along with letting them still use those longer ranged weapons while inside of 1" as well to equal effect. It allows for two different tactical options, which I love. Stay stuck in and still shoot with Repel the Enemy!, or fall back and still shoot with Get back in the Fight! Circumstances might dictate one over the other but having both options at my disposal sure is nice.

Just my observations on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So, everything I’ve seen so far is leading me to wanting to have an army containing detachments from more than 1 regiment (from a competitive point of view).

For example, LR Spearhead with Vostroyan, Baneblade with Catachan and infantry brigade with maybe Mordian.

Simple idea would be that the Russes get the extra range (I’m thinking FW Conqueror and Vanquisher here with the co-axil SB), Baneblade gets all the re-rolls on the damage and the infantry get the bubblewrap with improved overwatch and potentially run around sniping characters with command squads in a Chimera.

100% guarantee this will change as we see even more of the regiments.

Sweet, new official Savlar Chem-Dog art, didn't expect that

Also more proof that the new genestealer neophyte models should be used for all light infantry because they look so good.

SilverAlien wrote:
Also more proof that the new genestealer neophyte models should be used for all light infantry because they look so good.

I suddenly had the image of them forming the base of the Drookian Fen Guard. Their bodies with cadian legs (converted to kilts) and arms with Victoria's bare gas mask heads. There's just something about that body armour they're wearing that's really really 40kish.

Valhalla is up! Apparently they wont die!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/28/regiment-focus-valhallans-sep28gw-homepage-post-2/

Also conscripts get orders on a 4+ and only come in 20-30, so not a huge nerf, which makes me think they got a point increase....

I am loving the order to shoot into combat, hitting your own guys on a 1! Plus the stratagem for sending in the next wave totally confirms combined squads being a rule for another stratagem

Love Valhallan traits. I'll wait to see what the others are, but I might be buying little fur hats.

I think if they got a point increase they would have mentioned it, like they mentioned the decrease on the LRBT.

Besides, that's already two nerfs. Do you really think they need a 33% points hike on top of that? They're trying to balance them, not eradicate them from existence.

Also, combined squads indirectly confirmed as a stratagem. I think we're really going to want those 21CP builds, we have so much to spend it on.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Love Valhallan traits. I'll wait to see what the others are, but I might be buying little fur hats.

makes me want to run an all infantry list with over 200 bodies. I'd say run it WITHOUT commissars just to show the naysayers and have over 21 command points to keep recycling my conscripts. Need an objective? Simply apply guardsman until the problem goes away

I'm stumped about what to do with my superheavy tank regiment.

They got a great buff, and Vostroyan regiment tactics are pretty good, but so are the Catachan ones.

The others are (apparently, from Warhammer TV
Tallarn: Advance and shoot except heavy weapons, vehicles don't suffer the -1
Steel Legion: Rapid Fire up to 18", Vehicles ignore AP-1
Cadians: Re-roll 1s to hit if they don't move.

I hope we get a strategem or something that allows us to outflank a unit. Even just one unit would be enough fun for me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I hope we get a strategem or something that allows us to outflank a unit. Even just one unit would be enough fun for me.

That'll probably be for the Tallarns. Loving these Valhallan traits too. Really fluffy for them!

I'm really digging those Valhallans traits, those are some really useful abilities. Their tanks are going to fire at full effect for a very long time and that can not be understated this edition since our accuracy on them goes down so quickly.

Their morale rule is also incredibly helpful. Sniping commissars is a pretty common thing in my area. Having a way to cut routs in half without them gives me some redundancy for morale.

Plus we got send in the next wave on everything, not just conscripts, that's amazing. You can use vet squads to charge up the board, snipe something, then just bring them back in your deployment to deal with an enemy deepstriking, or bring back a heavy weapon squad knocked out earlier in the battle once the enemy's long range shooting is neutered.

Just an all around flexible and appropriate trait for them. May not be the most insane, but definitely up there in usefulness.

Not to mention we finally got an order to shoot into combat. My only question is how "friendly" units work. If I have Valhallans and Catachans for example, can the Valhallans "help" my Catachans by shooting into their combat?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm really digging those Valhallans traits, those are some really useful abilities. Their tanks are going to fire at full effect for a very long time and that can not be understated this edition since our accuracy on them goes down so quickly.

Their morale rule is also incredibly helpful. Sniping commissars is a pretty common thing in my area. Having a way to cut routs in half without them gives me some redundancy for morale.

Plus we got send in the next wave on everything, not just conscripts, that's amazing. You can use vet squads to charge up the board, snipe something, then just bring them back in your deployment to deal with an enemy deepstriking, or bring back a heavy weapon squad knocked out earlier in the battle once the enemy's long range shooting is neutered.

Just an all around flexible and appropriate trait for them. May not be the most insane, but definitely up there in usefulness.

Not to mention we finally got an order to shoot into combat. My only question is how "friendly" units work. If I have Valhallans and Catachans for example, can the Valhallans "help" my Catachans by shooting into their combat?

I think the shooter must be Valhallan but I see no reason why you can't shoot Catachans all day.

I like the idea of running a suicide squad of melta or flamer vets in a Taurox and rocketing them at somthing across the board and bringing them back again for fun times, ideally i'd also throw in a heavy weapon for reasons

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Not to mention we finally got an order to shoot into combat. My only question is how "friendly" units work. If I have Valhallans and Catachans for example, can the Valhallans "help" my Catachans by shooting into their combat?

Doesn't say the engaged unit needs to be Valhallan - or even Guard. Subject to the Codex clarifying, Vahallans could shoot at a unit engaged with a friendly unit of Marines or a friendly Knight.

The doctrines just keep getting better! So far I like everything I see in this update. I'm happy about the conscripts still being usable and send in the next wave is awesome! Happy about baneblade s being able to fire on the move without penalty and the crush them all ability is amazing as well...


My god I'm loving how this codex is looking.... much excite

Has this pic:



ever been used before? I'm wondering if we're seeing a sneak preview of future plastic Valhallans.

There's 7 regiments not counting the storm troopers right? Assuming 3 boxed sets per regiment, that's 21 boxed sets total. I still think GW could do that. How many sets do the marines have for all the various squad, armour and chapter types? More than 21 I bet. They should realise that if they make them, people will buy them.

Also, I'm comparing the Valhallan traits to the Death Korp one. Which is better? I think the Valhallan one is. More useful at least anyway.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Has this pic:



ever been used before? I'm wondering if we're seeing a sneak preview of future plastic Valhallans.

There's 7 regiments not counting the storm troopers right? Assuming 3 boxed sets per regiment, that's 21 boxed sets total. I still think GW could do that. How many sets do the marines have for all the various squad, armour and chapter types? More than 21 I bet. They should realise that if they make them, people will buy them.

Also, I'm comparing the Valhallan traits to the Death Korp one. Which is better? I think the Valhallan one is. More useful at least anyway.

The pic isn't new, its from the cover of the IG novel Ice Guard.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Has this pic:



ever been used before? I'm wondering if we're seeing a sneak preview of future plastic Valhallans.

There's 7 regiments not counting the storm troopers right? Assuming 3 boxed sets per regiment, that's 21 boxed sets total. I still think GW could do that. How many sets do the marines have for all the various squad, armour and chapter types? More than 21 I bet. They should realise that if they make them, people will buy them.

Also, I'm comparing the Valhallan traits to the Death Korp one. Which is better? I think the Valhallan one is. More useful at least anyway.

I think that pic is new, it seems to match the art style they are putting out with all the new AoS stuff.

I am actively looking to sell a kidney to afford plastic regiments if they ever make them, I gotta collect them all! =P

Valhallan get more toys and strats then the DKoK, so they will win everyday.

Wow, I'm loving the fluff rules for all the guard factions I'm definitely picking up some Fur hats this is exactly how I always imagined guard should play...... Send in wave after wave and shoot into your own troops if it helps defeat the enemies of the emperor

I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Also, I'm comparing the Valhallan traits to the Death Korp one. Which is better? I think the Valhallan one is. More useful at least anyway.

The Death Korps trait ignores models slain in shooting, gives everyone WS3+ and gives them special orders, at the cost of +1 point cost for infantry. The Valhallan ones halves the casualties from all morale tests, and makes vehicles deal more damage when wounded. Arguably, the morale traits are about equal and you want the Krieg one versus shooty armies and the Valhallan ones against close combat ones, although Krieg has access to some cheaper buffs to leadership. More durable vehicles are nice though, but so are WS3+ if you want to play Krieg as they should be played. Of course, Korpsmen are slightly more expensive and have worse options...

Anyway, I agree with you that the traits are quite equal in a vacuum but the Valhallan one is generally better for the normal kind of IG army even without factoring in the additional cost. The Death Korps however has one big advantage: they can use whatever units they want. If they keep the rule that your entire army needs to be Valhallan/Cadian/etc in order to gain the doctrinal benefit, you can't use allies without losing your bonuses whereas the Death Korps do not suffer any restriction and can quite happily take whatever they want.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Also, I'm comparing the Valhallan traits to the Death Korp one. Which is better? I think the Valhallan one is. More useful at least anyway.

The Death Korps trait ignores models slain in shooting, gives everyone WS3+ and gives them special orders, at the cost of +1 point cost for infantry. The Valhallan ones halves the casualties from all morale tests, and makes vehicles deal more damage when wounded. Arguably, the morale traits are about equal and you want the Krieg one versus shooty armies and the Valhallan ones against close combat ones, although Krieg has access to some cheaper buffs to leadership. More durable vehicles are nice though, but so are WS3+ if you want to play Krieg as they should be played. Of course, Korpsmen are slightly more expensive and have worse options...

Anyway, I agree with you that the traits are quite equal in a vacuum but the Valhallan one is generally better for the normal kind of IG army even without factoring in the additional cost. The Death Korps however has one big advantage: they can use whatever units they want. If they keep the rule that your entire army needs to be Valhallan/Cadian/etc in order to gain the doctrinal benefit, you can't use allies without losing your bonuses whereas the Death Korps do not suffer any restriction and can quite happily take whatever they want.

no idea about the IG codex but elsewhere it's always been detachment based. So you'd have a detachment of Valhallans, detachment of catachans, and a detachment of Ultramarines and as long as no units were brought in another detachment you're set and get you're special rules.

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

That's not quite the same thing.

CP are a limited resource, (granted, more plentiful in a Guard list comparatively) and unlike summoning, which was the worst offender BY FAR, getting a unit back is nowhere near as powerful.

Considering you have to completely lose the unit to bring it back, a cagey opponent will whittle a squad down to 2 or 3 models if they can and leave it, forcing you to push that unit up in an effort to charge in and have it killed completely to SITNW it back to their board edge. Unless there's a rule/function to remove a squad that's been depleted, you can very much dictate when or even if a squad gets recycled. In addition, you do pay for that squad initially to put it on the board, unlike previous summoning of whatever daemon unit you pulled out of the hat in 7th edition for no points cost what-so-ever.

I'm not saying you won't be forced to kill a squad off completely at some point to deal with a pressing threat (Lascannon/Autocannon heavy weapon team, or squad, for example) but if it's a conscript squad, or similar chaff unit with minimal upgrades, shoot it till it's down to 3 models or less and then let them halve their leadership losses to reduce it to one or two models and ignore it. So long as those couple of guardsmen are alive, their unit will stay in the dead pile.

Just my thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

no idea about the IG codex but elsewhere it's always been detachment based. So you'd have a detachment of Valhallans, detachment of catachans, and a detachment of Ultramarines and as long as no units were brought in another detachment you're set and get you're special rules.

Probably right. I haven't kept up with 40k due to university consuming all my hours. Anyway, DKoK allows mixing as well if number of detachments become an issue.

Send in the next wave is best used on expensive units - it might be a better tactic now to take a few vet squads with triple plasma and lascannon just for the possibility of recycling something powerful when they die. I suspect it's best used with something long ranged like the vet squad too rather than something more close ranged. Triple lascannon HWSs are another good target. They should still be able to fire their lascannons on 5+ BS when they setup afresh.

Yeah SITNW's big weakness now is that the unit must be dead in order to recycle, you don't get to choose when to remove them like in 5th. This means smart players can leave a squad whittled down to a couple of guys and move on.

Until you remember defender takes casualties, then you realize that in order to shut down a vet squad with plasma pistol, x3 plasma, and a lascannon, you'd have to kill everyone, since as long as the IG player has at least 1 man alive in the squad he will keep some sort of effective weapon going. Granted I'd rather face a guard squad with 1 lascannon than a full vet squad but it's still an important thing to remember. This happens to me a lot, I often have scattered heavy weapons and special weapons by turn 5 that are the sole survivors of their squads. With this strategem, I would need to figure out clever ways to kill my own men to respawn them.

That said, things like command squads packed with special weapons and a standard (so you can get LD bonuses where you need them in your line) kitted out vet squads, and high profile heavy weapon squads like lascannons get a lot of mileage out of it. It allows you to use high risk aggressive elements and then turn around and deploy them defensively or even just so you can move the whole army up, then respawn dead units on your home objective later in the game. Since you get to wait until you want to pop it a unit that dies turn 1 could come back turn 6 to take an objective.

It's an incredibly flexible and useful strategy but it will be tricky to use and I suspect it will be a trap, either with players saving points for it until it's too late, or blowing their points turn 2 reinforcing their army only to realize they have no rerolls or fallback strategem. At the very least it will be worth it for the pyschological effect on the opponent. Weather a turn 1 alpha strike only to respawn all your dead units would be frustrating for anyone to deal with, even if the units aren't that good or those CP's could be spent elsewhere. At least now I can mess with Necron players again like I used to in 5th


One final note though, anyone else a little convinced that Get Back in the Fight is probably being removed or modified? We've gotten two different orders that allow shooting into combat and various other doctrines that assist with it. If Get Back in the fight is unchanged, these new abilities are kind of pointless, as falling back and shooting will always be the superior choice. That, or commissars are going to prevent units from willingly falling back from combat (you know, their job) and would be a pretty critical nerf to what makes commissars so powerful right now. Taking them would be a very serious consideration as not being able to fall back at a critical point could lose you the game. That said, I haven't seen any new batreps with the codex so it could already have been shown that this isn't the case.

Potentially amusing application of SITNW: with grav chute insertion you can embark, move, and disembark a unit in the same turn. So if you have two valkyries and two veteran squads to put in them, you can cycle them.

Drop the squads, fly back to the deployment zone next turn. From then on when one dies, as soon as it recycles there will be a Valkyrie waiting to pick it up and ferry it to the front in a single movement phase.

Obviously potential hitches are if a squad dies turn 2 the valkyries won't be ready yet, and if both die at the same time you'll have to spend a turn resetting the valkyries again. Plus you can only do it a few times in a 5-turn game. But when it's working, every turn you'll have one Valkyrie dropping off a fresh squad while the other flies back from the squad it just dropped off.

So has anyone considered that battle cannons on regular leman russes are now nearly as good as baneblade cannons (and a million less points)?

Perhaps they will let baneblades shoot twice too!

Kdash wrote:
So, everything I’ve seen so far is leading me to wanting to have an army containing detachments from more than 1 regiment (from a competitive point of view).

For example, LR Spearhead with Vostroyan, Baneblade with Catachan and infantry brigade with maybe Mordian.

Simple idea would be that the Russes get the extra range (I’m thinking FW Conqueror and Vanquisher here with the co-axil SB), Baneblade gets all the re-rolls on the damage and the infantry get the bubblewrap with improved overwatch and potentially run around sniping characters with command squads in a Chimera.

100% guarantee this will change as we see even more of the regiments.

Fluffsise that's how the guard fight though. They even combine regiments together after heavy casualties.

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

It ended so well last time, we had to give it another go.

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

I can't hear you over your chapter master stratgem

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

I can't hear you over your chapter master stratgem

*sound of CSM players crying*

I'm so happy we're now shaping up to be so competitive after years of being such a joke.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

I can't hear you over your chapter master stratgem

*sound of CSM players crying*

Tide of Traitors is literally a copy of SITNW. You just can't use it on marines or terminators because that would be silly.

So given that just about every regiment stat has leaked, which do you think would work best for an armored company?

Catachans get to reroll some of their random d6 weapons.

Mordian tanks get to overwatch on 4+

Cadians get to reroll 1s while stationary and presumably have Pask (which is redundant as hell with the ability, but still a WS2+ platform).

Steel legion gets to treat AP1 as AP0 vs their vehicles.

Vostroyans get to add 6" range to every weapon.

Valhallan vehicles count double their wounds when determining degradation tables (only start degrading at 3 wounds and lower)

Tallarn vehicles get to fire all vehicle weapons at full BS after moving.

I personally think the Valhallan one is probably best for an armored company? They can take 3 additional wounds before it starts to matter (their BS drops). But everything else Valhallan has is so pointless. I dunno, man. I wish steel legion was better. Treat AP1 as AP0 vs vehicles? Who in their right mind would be firing AP1 vs vehicles anyway?
And Cadian rerolling 1s while standing still?... You mean what Pask, master of ordinance, and Yarrick ALREADY DO? What's the friggin' point?

ThePorcupine wrote:
But everything else Valhallan has is so pointless

Only if Commissars stay the way they are. I really hope they don't, and then getting half the deaths from morale might be big.

It'll depend on what you're taking, obviously -- if you like Punishers then you don't get much out of Catachans -- but it seems to me that the obvious choices are Catachans and Vostroyans. The others strike me as only of limited use for an armored company.

Mordians: Overwatching on a 5+ is not bad, but you don't generally want your tanks to get charged at all. Everyone has access to the +1 to Overwatch stratagem, and if you're using that when it's advantageous to do so then Mordians are only getting you a 50% boost to Overwatch.

Steel Legion is pretty bad if you're bringing Leman Russes and Baneblades since the only AP-1 anti-tank weapon is the S7 autocannon. It shuts down a Guilliman gunline which relies on wound re-rolls to push heavy bolters and assault cannons through T7 and T8, but that's about it.

Valhallans get +1 to hit on 1 vehicle, on some turns. You will rarely get anything out of this for multiple vehicles at once and you will often get nothing out of it at all. This is nice but it's just not a huge effect. Granted, I'm ignoring the effect on melee attacks and move speed.

Tallarn is not really what you want for Russes since they want to be moving at half speed to fire twice, and they get nothing out of the doctrine for their main guns. It's nice for Chimeras I guess. Super-heavies can advance and fire at -1, which is maybe useful with Crush Them but note that you can just use Crush Them anyway without advancing with other regiments in order to hit on 2+ in melee.

That leaves Catachans, Cadians, and Vostroyans.

Cadians aren't bad at all. It's a generic 17% buff if you're sitting still, and that's easy to do with Russes. There's just something of an Ultramarines/Mars problem here where a special character (Harker) makes another regiment a lot more appealing.

Vostroyans seem mostly useful with 24" guns. That extra 6" is potentially a huge deal with punisher and demolisher cannons. Especially punishers since they don't benefit from the Catachan doctrine and you probably need to move so you won't benefit from the Cadian doctrine either. Supposedly they also have a +1 to hit stratagem, which lets them duplicate the Valhallan doctrine at will.

Catachans seem like the obvious pick for battle cannons, and Harker is obviously fantastic.

jaxor1983 wrote:
So has anyone considered that battle cannons on regular leman russes are now nearly as good as baneblade cannons (and a million less points)?

Perhaps they will let baneblades shoot twice too!

Leman Russ Battle Cannon, moving 6" to fire twice: 2D6 shots, STR8 AP-3-2, D3 damage
Baneblade Cannon, can move full distance with no loss in effectiveness: 2D6 shots, STR9, AP-3, 3 damage.

Against other Tanks, or even tougher targets, the Baneblade Cannon's strength wins out. Better AP value, and reliable 3 damage, instead of D3. So no, not "nearly" as good.

jaxor1983 wrote:So has anyone considered that battle cannons on regular leman russes are now nearly as good as baneblade cannons (and a million less points)?

Perhaps they will let baneblades shoot twice too!

I heard from the Warhammer TV stuff that the superheavy weapons are getting a buff, though I have lost my subscription and therefore cannot go back and check what exactly they were on about.


As for armoured company: My superheavy tanks still don't know which regiment to pick.

Catachan is an incremental firepower increase.

Vostroyans are neat but the range is largely unnecessary (though it helps the stormsword siege tanks)

Valhallans are cool but will only help one tank at a time if the enemy isn't a derp.

Tallarn (if the rumor about how superheavies are going to turn all their weapons to Assault since they already don't suffer the penalty to moving & shooting) would be fun to zoom around like a mazda commercial.

Steel Legion are phbbbbt.

Cadians are right out, as I already use 1 trojan / tank, which means I re-roll all misses.