Warhammer Community posted the first hints about the new Astra Militarum Codex. Here is the information from the article:
Spoiler:
Codex: Astra Militarum is the next codex in line for Warhammer 40,000, and it’s just as packed with new content as its predecessors.
We’ve seen rules for Space Marine Chapters, Traitor Legions, forge worlds, and now there are rules for 8 regiments of the Astra Militarum. Which regiments, you ask? Cadia and Catachan will, of course, be included, as well as new rules for Armageddon, Tallarn, Valhalla, Vostroya, Mordian and the Militarum Tempestus. Each one of these factions will be getting its own regimental doctrine, order, stratagem, relic, and warlord trait – the codex is absolutely brimming with content, aimed at letting you customise your army to suit your style of play.
Similarly, the codex is set to diversify Astra Militarum lists with tweaks to rules and points aimed at putting each unit on an even footing. Conscripts, for example, have been changed to better reflect their inferior discipline compared to professional soldiers. It’s not just about rules, either – the new codex contains loads of new background and art, including a look at some of the more unusual regiments of the 41st Millennium and advice on how you might want to convert them.
Highlights:
1. Chapter Tactics like rules for eight Guard Regiments
2. Each Regiment will have a doctrine, Strategem, relic, and Warlord trait.
3. Advice on converting models for the Regiments (Awesome!)
4. Conscript Nerf incoming.
Damn. I was hoping regiment rules would be based around type rather than homeworld, so you don't end up with Cadian tank regiments that re-roll 1s to hit with Lasguns or Tallarn infantry regiments that get +1 armour save on Leman Russes.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Damn. I was hoping regiment rules would be based around type rather than homeworld, so you don't end up with Cadian tank regiments that re-roll 1s to hit with Lasguns or Tallarn infantry regiments that get +1 armour save on Leman Russes.
You can bet that the bonuses will only affect infantry.
I know admech affects all units, but their unit roster is paltry compared to the guard. The regiments will be more in line with space marines than admech, if I were a betting man.
I honestly can't wait for this just for the rules and balance changes. I'm wondering what they're going to do with conscripts, and having the scions get their own regiment stuff is interesting. Going to have to run them in a separate detachment.
It's not really a surprise that Scions are getting their own Regiment stuff. They were specifically called out in the Index as not being able to be selected as a "Regiment" because of the fact they are one effectively.
Gamgee wrote: I like the Praefects the most followed by Chem-Dogs but that is way too much work for me to convert them.
Yeah, especially if IG continues to be infantry focused like it is so far in this edition, it becomes incredibly tedious to model through for 50+ models. Cool for maybe a squad, not so much an entire army. Dammit GW, greatcoat plastics or bust!
Gamgee wrote: I like the Praefects the most followed by Chem-Dogs but that is way too much work for me to convert them.
Yeah, especially if IG continues to be infantry focused like it is so far in this edition, it becomes incredibly tedious to model through for 50+ models. Cool for maybe a squad, not so much an entire army. Dammit GW, greatcoat plastics or bust!
yeah, the conversions are cool, but in no way doable for a swarm army like IG (unless you're a millionaire and have ton of free time). Such a shame that we're still stuck with atrocious looking IG regiment.
Doth my ears deceive me? Do I hear the choir of angels singing again? Hallelujah!
Also the Ventrillion Nobles remind me of the Praetorian Guard. Although that's probably a combination of the colorscheme, dapper uniforms and pithyesque helmets (i'm squinting real hard).
puma713 wrote: Sounds like they're reining conscripts in a bit.
Most likely not being able to receive orders and/or commissar buffs, I mean if you're a conscript who starts panicking and a commanding officer blows one of your squad mates heads off I think you'd just start to panick more rather than get your head together.
From what the article says I think it's most likely not being able to receive orders as the conscripts wouldn't be trained or disciplined enough to enact a first rank, second rank in the midst of combat.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Warhammer Community posted the first hints about the new Astra Militarum Codex. Here is the information from the article:
Spoiler:
Codex: Astra Militarum is the next codex in line for Warhammer 40,000, and it’s just as packed with new content as its predecessors.
We’ve seen rules for Space Marine Chapters, Traitor Legions, forge worlds, and now there are rules for 8 regiments of the Astra Militarum. Which regiments, you ask? Cadia and Catachan will, of course, be included, as well as new rules for Armageddon, Tallarn, Valhalla, Vostroya, Mordian and the Militarum Tempestus. Each one of these factions will be getting its own regimental doctrine, order, stratagem, relic, and warlord trait – the codex is absolutely brimming with content, aimed at letting you customise your army to suit your style of play.
Similarly, the codex is set to diversify Astra Militarum lists with tweaks to rules and points aimed at putting each unit on an even footing. Conscripts, for example, have been changed to better reflect their inferior discipline compared to professional soldiers. It’s not just about rules, either – the new codex contains loads of new background and art, including a look at some of the more unusual regiments of the 41st Millennium and advice on how you might want to convert them.
Highlights:
1. Chapter Tactics like rules for eight Guard Regiments
2. Each Regiment will have a doctrine, Strategem, relic, and Warlord trait.
3. Advice on converting models for the Regiments (Awesome!)
4. Conscript Nerf incoming.
I'm annoyed that the only conversions they show are hideously expensive to do thanks to such specialized GW bits, but it makes sense that they're what are shown in the book. Thanks to GW's legal department they won't admit other mini companies exist but by doing this they show you "hey, you can do all kinds of stuff with random bits out there!" This will help inspire people and encourage them to create their own regiments, be they 100% original IG or no. It's also a good sign that we'll continue to see support for the old metal lines, and maybe even a few of the more popular ones eventually come out in plastic someday.
The chapter tactic stuff will most likely affect infantry and sentinels only. That's how space marines and chaos space marines work and admech only has like one vehicle, otherwise they're in the same boat. If anyone gets a regiment trait that helps vehicle, maybe it'll be armageddon, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'm mainly amazed it's coming out so soon. I figured we had till at least November. Brace for nerfs comrades, there's no way we're coming out of this at the strength we had in the index. Honestly this is probably a good thing, I just worry they'll go way too far with the nerfs, like they did with 6th.
If they lose a orders and commissar buffs, then you might as well delete them, no one willl ever take them. Losing orders is a perfect nerf. Or just take away their regiment keyword.
argonak wrote: If they lose a orders and commissar buffs, then you might as well delete them, no one willl ever take them. Losing orders is a perfect nerf. Or just take away their regiment keyword.
Competitive players won't take them. Fluff players will.
argonak wrote: If they lose a orders and commissar buffs, then you might as well delete them, no one willl ever take them. Losing orders is a perfect nerf. Or just take away their regiment keyword.
Say what? lol no you still take them since they are dirt cheap, fulfill your troop tax and screen out deep striking units. Instead of 40 man blobs you will just see 2x20 man blobs lol.
It's absolutely necessary to remove the commissar buff or nerf it to hell and to take away orders. I would bet a hot sandwich they get the stratagem like chaos cultists got that lets you recycle conscripts anyway.
argonak wrote: If they lose a orders and commissar buffs, then you might as well delete them, no one willl ever take them. Losing orders is a perfect nerf. Or just take away their regiment keyword.
Say what? lol no you still take them since they are dirt cheap, fulfill your troop tax and screen out deep striking units. Instead of 40 man blobs you will just see 2x20 man blobs lol.
It's absolutely necessary to remove the commissar buff or nerf it to hell and to take away orders. I would bet a hot sandwich they get the stratagem like chaos cultists got that lets you recycle conscripts anyway.
That's kind of my thought as well. Giant blobs of Conscripts are still going to be a thing. They may not be paired with a Commissar anymore, which I would think IG players would be amenable to. I hope that their tanks get a buff.
argonak wrote: If they lose a orders and commissar buffs, then you might as well delete them, no one willl ever take them. Losing orders is a perfect nerf. Or just take away their regiment keyword.
Say what? lol no you still take them since they are dirt cheap, fulfill your troop tax and screen out deep striking units. Instead of 40 man blobs you will just see 2x20 man blobs lol.
It's absolutely necessary to remove the commissar buff or nerf it to hell and to take away orders. I would bet a hot sandwich they get the stratagem like chaos cultists got that lets you recycle conscripts anyway.
No, then you just take barebones infantry squads because bringing a 20 man unit that deserts to a man after 10 wounds is a waste of points and time. Guard have zero problems filling troop slots with or without conscripts. Their only selling point over regular infantry is their numbers and ability to not take serious morale casualties.
Like seriously, people don't understand that actual good competitive lists remove 40-50+ conscripts/screening units per turn with ease. I just came from a tournament where a Ynnari player at the table next to me killed 90 boyz in a single turn. Said ork player destroyed my 35 man conscript unit and tied up the line if 35 behind then with a combination of multiple full powered smites from weirdboyz and a turn 1 charge from Da Jump.
A Cawl ball deleted all 60 I brought to a tournament a couple weeks ago in a single turn. Turn 2 he killed 4 of 6 infantry squads. Anti infantry options are out there and they work wonders against conscripts. If your army doesn't have them, that's an issue that needs to be fixed on your army's end because otherwise the armies that already murder guard infantry will go from painfully good at it to absolutely absurd at it.
Leth wrote: Honestly with bits resellers its not as hard to get the parts you need to conversions.
It is if your Tau. I've been trying to find a bloody light saber ripoff thing I can slap on my commander for a year now that I can paint up in a custom colour. I can't find a generic light sword anywhere lol. Or even a cool energy blade type thing.
I will be even more upset if the regiment rules only affect infantry.
*Welcome to the Imperial Guard, most vast and diverse formations in the galaxy. They field tank regiments, air defense regiments, superheavy tank regiments, reconnaissance companies...
... but if you play an thing other than infantry you get NOTHING.*
Leth wrote: Honestly with bits resellers its not as hard to get the parts you need to conversions.
It is if your Tau. I've been trying to find a bloody light saber ripoff thing I can slap on my commander for a year now that I can paint up in a custom colour. I can't find a generic light sword anywhere lol. Or even a cool energy blade type thing.
It's called a painted toothpick (and green stuff if you *need* a handle)
Been doing that since my Kenner obi-wan lost his...
Hmm, so did the make the converted models first and then had art made of them or the other way around?
I'm guessing the first option.
GW are a bit confusing:
Unit does NOT have a model but been in other rulebooks for 10+ years? -REMOVE FROM CODEX!
Unit does NOT have a model and never existed before? -ADD WD ARTICLE ON HOW TO CONVERT ONE!
Commissar Benny wrote: Well here is hoping GW saw the plethora of threads, emails, letters from IG players & actually release some of the older regiments in plastic
Plastic Vostroyan regiments will no doubt send me broke...
Commissar Benny wrote: Well here is hoping GW saw the plethora of threads, emails, letters from IG players & actually release some of the older regiments in plastic
Plastic Vostroyan regiments will no doubt send me broke...
I'm willing to drop a lot of money if they follow through. Been waiting decades for the old regiments to be redone. The pewter models look good but when you have 100+ mono pose models that all look the same, it takes away from their beauty.
Commissar Benny wrote: Well here is hoping GW saw the plethora of threads, emails, letters from IG players & actually release some of the older regiments in plastic
Plastic Vostroyan regiments will no doubt send me broke...
I'm willing to drop a lot of money if they follow through. Been waiting decades for the old regiments to be redone. The pewter models look good but when you have 100+ mono pose models that all look the same, it takes away from their beauty.
The real dream would be plastic kits of DKOK
With the other regiments they may not do full kits, but at the very least it would awesome if they released upgrade packs similar to the space marine chapter upgrade sprues. A set of heads/torsos and various gear will go a long way to kitbashing a lot of variety into the standard Cadian kits.
Pleasantly surprised that this is going up for pre-order next weekend, as I was expecting this to not go up for another month.
Quite chuffed that the Militarum Tempestus is one of the regiments listed, makes me feel less bad about having bought seven of the Start Collecting! boxed sets of theirs.
However, I am setting my expectations low, as this will for the most part be a copy-paste job from the index, with abysmal fluff about your dudes dying in droves and being overly incompetent, while no doubt making everybody else look good again.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I will be even more upset if the regiment rules only affect infantry.
*Welcome to the Imperial Guard, most vast and diverse formations in the galaxy. They field tank regiments, air defense regiments, superheavy tank regiments, reconnaissance companies...
... but if you play an thing other than infantry you get NOTHING.*
I can absolutely guarantee you that your superheavies won't benefit from regiment tactics. I can also absolutely guarantee you that there will be stratagems specifically catering towards Baneblades and such.
At the very most Leman Russ tanks may get the benefit of regiment tactics but I wouldn't bank on it.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
There is a lot that could be done with the IG to make them interesting, not least proper regimental doctrines (light infantry, mechanised infantry, armoured squadrons, artillery batteries, siege engineers...) that could introduce a lot of variety in the IG without tying all armies to specific regiments. However I expect to be disappointed.
I wonder if Sgts will remember how to use lasguns?
JohnnyHell wrote: Dayummm GW now people are gonna copy my guard! Praefects indeed.
Shame it means no new kits if they're encouraging conversions. And weird they're encouraging conversions here yet locking down Marines.
GW's crusade against conversion is a fabrication. I can't say why they got rid of some of the conversion-only units but between this, the Grandmaster Dreadknight, and the Exalted Champion "no model no rules" is obviously not an ironclad rule for them.
JohnnyHell wrote: Dayummm GW now people are gonna copy my guard! Praefects indeed.
Shame it means no new kits if they're encouraging conversions. And weird they're encouraging conversions here yet locking down Marines.
GW's crusade against conversion is a fabrication. I can't say why they got rid of some of the conversion-only units but between this, the Grandmaster Dreadknight, and the Exalted Champion "no model no rules" is obviously not an ironclad rule for them.
The test will be units like Vets (no real models ever), Last Chancers (models, no real rules in a while) and Rough Riders.
JohnnyHell wrote: Dayummm GW now people are gonna copy my guard! Praefects indeed.
Shame it means no new kits if they're encouraging conversions. And weird they're encouraging conversions here yet locking down Marines.
GW's crusade against conversion is a fabrication. I can't say why they got rid of some of the conversion-only units but between this, the Grandmaster Dreadknight, and the Exalted Champion "no model no rules" is obviously not an ironclad rule for them.
The test will be units like Vets (no real models ever), Last Chancers (models, no real rules in a while) and Rough Riders.
The Index Remembers. Should Rough Riders be binned I can still field them!
Gamgee wrote: I like the Praefects the most followed by Chem-Dogs but that is way too much work for me to convert them.
Yeah, especially if IG continues to be infantry focused like it is so far in this edition, it becomes incredibly tedious to model through for 50+ models. Cool for maybe a squad, not so much an entire army. Dammit GW, greatcoat plastics or bust!
yeah, the conversions are cool, but in no way doable for a swarm army like IG (unless you're a millionaire and have ton of free time). Such a shame that we're still stuck with atrocious looking IG regiment.
It is pretty doable actually, even if you do not have much money or time. You just need to build the army very slowly over time. Or you could just play a list that is light on infantry...
Yup, totally doable. Plan what you use bits for. The Pistoliers kit gave me heads for all my dudes, horses for Rough Riders, and I used the torsos, guns and capes for Scions. Blog link in my sig. ended up costing no more than upgrade sprues would and created a characterful force.
Leth wrote: Honestly with bits resellers its not as hard to get the parts you need to conversions.
It is if your Tau. I've been trying to find a bloody light saber ripoff thing I can slap on my commander for a year now that I can paint up in a custom colour. I can't find a generic light sword anywhere lol. Or even a cool energy blade type thing.
It's called a painted toothpick (and green stuff if you *need* a handle)
Been doing that since my Kenner obi-wan lost his...
It's actually kind of hard to get greenstuff here other than liquid green stuff and too much money and work just to use it for that. Actually I finally got mad enough to do some more serious digging and I think I found the right gundam piece finally. Granted it is a steep price to pay for a friggen sword. *sigh* At least I'll have a cool gundam model.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Damn. I was hoping regiment rules would be based around type rather than homeworld, so you don't end up with Cadian tank regiments that re-roll 1s to hit with Lasguns or Tallarn infantry regiments that get +1 armour save on Leman Russes.
You can bet that the bonuses will only affect infantry.
I know admech affects all units, but their unit roster is paltry compared to the guard. The regiments will be more in line with space marines than admech, if I were a betting man.
Marines CT can effect Dreadnoughts so hopefully something equivalent for Guard - like Tanks.
BroodSpawn wrote: I wouldn't expect the regimental rules to affect tanks all that much. There's a handful of dreads in comparison to the dozen tanks available.
Dozen? So the Hellhound, Leman Russ, Leman Russ Demolisher and...
So Catachans get both Infantry AND Tank buffs, which is a good start.
Infantry get +1S (not amazing on guardsmen, but it might be fun to try out with cheap units), and +1 Ld when near an Officer.
Vehicles get to reroll one of the dice used in weapons with a random amount of shots (ie, flamers, blast weaponry, etc etc).
AND Strategems too! Mordians coming tomorrow.
See, this is more like what I was hoping for.
The random-dice-for-shots reroll is pretty much what always spend CP on, so you might see the 2nd Concordian ISHTR pretending to be catachans in the future!
Catachans are a solid choice alone for the better vehicle reliability. Couple that with what Srg Harkers ability( assuming they don't change that) and Catachans can make a more reliable fire base. Was hoping to see how their unique order worked though.
If all the Regiments are this powerful, it's gonna be a wild ride.
I'm hoping maybe the superheavies get some leadership effect back (or tanks in general) like their old Thunderous Barrage rule that made enemies take a leadership test on 4d6 if their blasts bapped them in the face.
Those Catachan traits are amazing. They already have Straken and Harker and now incredibly reliable tanks (almost every single LR variant and all flamer vehicles are improved by this) and very solid melee. This trait benefits you even if you don't build for melee because 90% of the time the enemy comes to assault you (and now you can hit them with d3 mortal wounds thanks to Viscous Traps). Also, Straken will be eviscerating things with STR 7 now.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Since when are Catachans the best at firing tank guns? That seems like an odd choice.
I honestly agree with your sentiment... I would have figured their vehicles would get to reroll flamer weapons' number of shots, not any random shot weapon. It's a bit odd, but hey, better more buffs than less!
People need to read the lore on superheavy tanks more.
The Catachans were one of three Regiments with a special character superheavy (Hellhammer Traitor's Bane). The other Regiments were the 1st Koenig (Baneblade 212 Arethusa) and the Armageddon Steel Legion (Shadowsword Iron Saint).
So they've actually got quite a history, at least with superheavies.
one tidbit I like is that they suggested kitting a command squad with a heavy flamer and four flamers, which assumes larger command squads. I, for one, am happy about that!
The reroll for shots is more psychological than game breaking, as it averages to only .72 more shots, assuming you keep anything 4 or more, and reroll 1-3. However... while it's only one die per weapon, it is every weapon, which makes things like hellhounds and dual heavy flamer chimeras more punchy.
It's also "anytime it fires," which means it provides the buff during overwatch as well.
On the whole, while I agree that it's initially not the best fluff fit for Catachans, I'm liking that regimental doctrines will be neat, but not huge.
I like it but if mortars and wyverns don't go up in price games are going to take forever. Reroll number of shots plus reroll ones on that many d6 is going to be insane.
Polonius wrote: one tidbit I like is that they suggested kitting a command squad with a heavy flamer and four flamers, which assumes larger command squads. I, for one, am happy about that!
The reroll for shots is more psychological than game breaking, as it averages to only .72 more shots, assuming you keep anything 4 or more, and reroll 1-3. However... while it's only one die per weapon, it is every weapon, which makes things like hellhounds and dual heavy flamer chimeras more punchy.
It's also "anytime it fires," which means it provides the buff during overwatch as well.
On the whole, while I agree that it's initially not the best fluff fit for Catachans, I'm liking that regimental doctrines will be neat, but not huge.
It's not about the averages though. It's about the below-average times.
I only roll a 2-5 for the Baneblade's shots rarely for my superheavy tank regiment, but when I do, I always always always use a command point to re-roll the lowest die. With this rule, I'd essentially re-roll the lowest die if it came up a 2 or lower, even if the other die was a 6!
Catachans get reroll on explosion weapons because they're the silly action-movie army. Duh. In an action movie, every single shot weapon needs to explode for effect, except for the sole exception of a whole squad of guys firing at something while one dude with a big gun and belt ammo goes "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" (i.e. sgt harker).
In concept, I love everything about this for the Catachans. In practice, I'm disappointed by the execution of their stratagem. It would be OK if it were a guaranteed D3 mortals, 1cp is Noooooooot worth a 50% chance at a measley D3 mortals.
Hulksmash wrote: I like it but if mortars and wyverns don't go up in price games are going to take forever. Reroll number of shots plus reroll ones on that many d6 is going to be insane.
Mortars don't get to reroll number of shots. Only vehicles.
I kinda thought Catatchans getting re-rolls for random hit dice was weird until I remembered they're the rambo explosions everywhere and machine gun army.
Infantry get +1S (not amazing on guardsmen, but it might be fun to try out with cheap units), and +1 Ld when near an Officer.
Now that's just stupid; do their muscles shrink when they are a 100 meters or so away from an officer? It would have been far better to make it a straight buff if the entire detachment was from keyword Catachan.
Infantry get +1S (not amazing on guardsmen, but it might be fun to try out with cheap units), and +1 Ld when near an Officer.
Now that's just stupid; do their muscles shrink when they are a 100 meters or so away from an officer? It would have been far better to make it a straight buff if the entire detachment was from keyword Catachan.
The +1 Str is a complete buff, the Ld bonus is the one that takes effect around officers.
Stus67 wrote: I kinda thought Catatchans getting re-rolls for random hit dice was weird until I remembered they're the rambo explosions everywhere and machine gun army.
And I suppose they use their tanks to drive Catachan devils away from their lawn every morning (and weeding it with battle cannons), so they should be in practice.
Catachan basilisks are going to be super reliable, 2D6 and pick the highest so say you roll a 5 and a 3, keep the 5 and reroll the 3 if you roll lower you're still guaranteed 5 shots but if you roll a 6 happy days!
Infantry get +1S (not amazing on guardsmen, but it might be fun to try out with cheap units), and +1 Ld when near an Officer.
Now that's just stupid; do their muscles shrink when they are a 100 meters or so away from an officer? It would have been far better to make it a straight buff if the entire detachment was from keyword Catachan.
All Catachan have +1 Strength - they just get +1 LD when near an Officer.
I expect mordians will be something along the lines of some kinda re-roll with lasguns and overwatch buffs
Tallarn prob some infiltrating and faster tanks when they advance
Valhalla is what i'm putting my money on to be the best, they'll no doubt have a horrible conscripts re-gen strat
Cadian i'm thinking heavy BS buffs
interesting they are putting these doctrines in for a range of regiments modelwise that haven't been supported well in literally decades... do i feel a multipart regiment kit coming?
I wonder what GW plan is for regiments without one of the 7 doctrines (not including tempest).
Is this going to just be the space marine blurb of choose the doctrine that closely matches ur army?
If so poor praetorians left out of the cool kids club...
And you would think with them only selling attilans rough riders they would have an attilan doctrine.
And I'm holding out hope that with the release of necromunda someone at GW gets the bright idea of adding back penal legions so they can cash in on the plethora of bits we will finally have access too.
I'm also disappointed there was NO Marbo leak today!!!
Crimson Devil wrote: And got more ones. In that scene they shot up the jungle and got one wound.
To be fair the target had invisibility and a 2+ cover save.
And had a -2 to be hit at over 12"...
I will say that I'm tentatively intrigued by this book. Vortex Warheads alone has piqued my interest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: I wonder what GW plan is for regiments without one of the 7 doctrines (not including tempest). Is this going to just be the space marine blurb of choose the doctrine that closely matches ur army? If so poor praetorians left out of the cool kids club... And you would think with them only selling attilans rough riders they would have an attilan doctrine. And I'm holding out hope that with the release of necromunda someone at GW gets the bright idea of adding back penal legions so they can cash in on the plethora of bits we will finally have access too.
I'm also disappointed there was NO Marbo leak today!!!
They don't sell Rough Riders, period, right now.
They haven't been for sale for something like 4 years or so. Since around the time of the "Spearhead" WD expansion for tanks.
Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Arachnofiend wrote: Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Because Baneblades are completely inefficient point sinks that are often crippled or killed first turn. Without buffs from the rest of the army, Baneblades are pretty terrible, trust me. Daemon engines on the other hand do just fine all on their own since they have invulnerable saves to fall back on and often regenerate wounds.
Haha wow, somebody doesn't play CSM. Forgefiends do not do "just fine", I assure you that.
Whether or not a specific unit is viable with/without tactics is irrelevant though. The problem is that apparently every non-Marine army is going to get a greater breadth of bonuses than Marines.
Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworld tactics where less powerfull than marines ones because they affected everything (Ignoring the -1 to hit in 12", that souldn't exist as a Forgeworld Tactic if its affect everything in the army, maybe now isn't a problem but in the future with vehicles...)
This Catachan one is sure more powerfull than some Chaos and Loyalist space marines chapter tactics, so maybe we have a problem here...
Arachnofiend wrote: Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Should have thought of that before you betrayed the emperor, heretic. #horusregret
Arachnofiend wrote: Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
I expect that the reason is that, because of the way Guard keywords are set up, it's a lot easier for GW to exclude the things they want to be sure to exclude, like flyers. Note that actually lots of Guard stuff doesn't get doctrines. Here's a list of things in Imperium Index 2 that are ASTRA MILITARUM but not <REGIMENT>:
2 Commissars + 1 special character
3 abhumans + 1 special character
Officers of the Fleet and Valkyries
Tech-Priest Enginseers (which are no longer ASTRA MILITARUM in the AdMech codex)
Uriah Jacobus and Ministorum Priests
3 psykers
And then the Forgeworld flyers also lack <REGIMENT>, while Rough Riders at least get nothing from the Catachan doctrine. Forgeworld Earthshaker and Tarantula Batteries lack the VEHICLE keyword and so probably won't get anything out of most doctrines (only those that apply to all AM units without picking out types, probably).
It does seem like the Guard rule is more generous, but it remains limited in some important ways, and there are some big differences in the ways the armies are structured that seem to justify it. I think the upcoming Eldar codex will be a more interesting point of comparison, since no matter what GW does, it will look unfair to somebody. GW will definitely want to exclude their flyers, but it's hard to see what they do about Eldar vehicles. Space Marines have a huge variety of DREADNOUGHT-keyworded units compared to Eldar... Wraithlords? Maybe walkers in general which would bring in War Walkers, though there's currently no keyword which would catch only those two units. Maybe MONSTERS, which would be Wraithlords and Wraithknights, but judging from the AdMech codex GW doesn't want to give traits to Knights. This looks pretty unfair to Eldar. But what's the alternative except to give them traits on grav tanks, which I expect would annoy Marine players?
I would have loved for Imperial Fists to have that tank ability (it would have been fitting, if situational since only the Vindicator has random shots). Overall, these look pretty good.
I would have loved for Imperial Fists to have that tank ability (it would have been fitting, if situational since only the Vindicator has random shots). Overall, these look pretty good.
Personally I'm a little hupset about the fact that Tempestus Scions have become a totally separated thing when in the past Stormtroopers where just Elite units of their regiments... I miss my Karskins
Galas wrote: Personally I'm a little hupset about the fact that Tempestus Scions have become a totally separated thing when in the past Stormtroopers where just Elite units of their regiments... I miss my Karskins
Havent they been a totally separate entity for some time now?
Arachnofiend wrote: Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Should have thought of that before you betrayed the emperor, heretic. #horusregret
I play Thousand Sons, we didn't betray the Emperor, the Emperor betrayed us!
I would have loved for Imperial Fists to have that tank ability (it would have been fitting, if situational since only the Vindicator has random shots). Overall, these look pretty good.
hey don't forget the whirlwind
You're right! And having it work on just two tanks wouldn't be too broken.
Galas wrote: Personally I'm a little hupset about the fact that Tempestus Scions have become a totally separated thing when in the past Stormtroopers where just Elite units of their regiments... I miss my Karskins
Stormtroopers have always been separate, its just that some regiments happen to employ elite heavy infantry with hellguns and carapace armour.
I would have loved for Imperial Fists to have that tank ability (it would have been fitting, if situational since only the Vindicator has random shots). Overall, these look pretty good.
hey don't forget the whirlwind
You're right! And having it work on just two tanks wouldn't be too broken.
Guess Predator Autocannons dont have 2d3 shots in your book.
Galas wrote: Personally I'm a little hupset about the fact that Tempestus Scions have become a totally separated thing when in the past Stormtroopers where just Elite units of their regiments... I miss my Karskins
Havent they been a totally separate entity for some time now?
Yes, but I was hoping they reversed it here.
Pseudomonas wrote:
Galas wrote: Personally I'm a little hupset about the fact that Tempestus Scions have become a totally separated thing when in the past Stormtroopers where just Elite units of their regiments... I miss my Karskins
Stormtroopers have always been separate, its just that some regiments happen to employ elite heavy infantry with hellguns and carapace armour.
They are as separated (In the fluff) as Dark Eldar Kabals, Wych cults and Hoemunculos Coves. And those are now too separated and totally incompatible from a buff and mixing rules perspective. Personally I don't think thats a good thing.
I would have loved for Imperial Fists to have that tank ability (it would have been fitting, if situational since only the Vindicator has random shots). Overall, these look pretty good.
hey don't forget the whirlwind
You're right! And having it work on just two tanks wouldn't be too broken.
Guess Predator Autocannons dont have 2d3 shots in your book.
I was more thinking traditionally area bombardment tanks. Heck, I would be fine if they flat out said that it only affected Vindicators and Whirlwinds.
Ah, the codex creep is real - it was nice while it lasted; but I suppose GW realized that everyone knew that all the new traits would just be renames of the SM/CSM ones if they kept going the way they did.
The Catachan trait is obviously fantastic; it just seems a little out of place though - I thought they didn't specialize in vehicles so much? To be fair though, I don't play AM.
As AM is such a vehicle heavy army already; I'm hard pressed thinking what could possibly be better for them then the Catachan d6 rerolls; Ignoring the -1 when moving and shooting could do it, -1 to hit outside 12" might also be good enough.Outside those two, I'm not sure why you'd pick another regiment (guess we'll see as the spoilers come out).
I hope they're as generous and creative with Orks codex as they have been recently with other armies - but I always gotta keep in mind, I'm not an Imperial, I don't get the good stuff. XD
While a catachan deathstrikr and 3 Cp is now much more powerful... it still is useless when games especially infantry heavy armies like guard are still not getting able to play past 3-4 rounds normally in 2hrs.
I hope they change the profile and just make it a 4+ chance to fire on rd 3 or later. It rarely goes offf as it is
fe40k wrote: Ah, the codex creep is real - it was nice while it lasted; but I suppose GW realized that everyone knew that all the new traits would just be renames of the SM/CSM ones if they kept going the way they did.
The Catachan trait is obviously fantastic; it just seems a little out of place though - I thought they didn't specialize in vehicles so much? To be fair though, I don't play AM.
As AM is such a vehicle heavy army already; I'm hard pressed thinking what could possibly be better for them then the Catachan d6 rerolls; Ignoring the -1 when moving and shooting could do it, -1 to hit outside 12" might also be good enough.Outside those two, I'm not sure why you'd pick another regiment (guess we'll see as the spoilers come out).
I hope they're as generous and creative with Orks codex as they have been recently with other armies - but I always gotta keep in mind, I'm not an Imperial, I don't get the good stuff. XD
unfortunately looking like no new minis for guard but so happy about the new book and my tallarn will get some actual rules!
QQ all the kids who wasted money on piles on conscripts and mortars. On to the next WAAC lists!
I'd really like to see their conversions for Tallarn and rough riders.. my guess is empire horse gunners..
Individual blisters of just heads and misc bits could go a long way to making existing kits into alternative IG forces
Yep. Empire Pistoliers with Cadian torsos are how I made mine. Given the use of Pistoliers heads in the regiments preview I'd imagine they could have done similar.
If Rough Riders are even included, of which I'm not hopeful.
gainsay wrote: QQ all the kids who wasted money on piles on conscripts and mortars. On to the next WAAC lists!
Which will probably involve either guard infantry or conscripts still so I doubt anyone wasted money. Normal guard infantry are currently, without any doctrine buffs, better than anything any of the codex armies have. GW has made no mention of nerfing them in any capacity. Thus it can be safely assumed they will still be broken.
fe40k wrote: Ah, the codex creep is real - it was nice while it lasted; but I suppose GW realized that everyone knew that all the new traits would just be renames of the SM/CSM ones if they kept going the way they did.
The Catachan trait is obviously fantastic; it just seems a little out of place though - I thought they didn't specialize in vehicles so much? To be fair though, I don't play AM.
As AM is such a vehicle heavy army already; I'm hard pressed thinking what could possibly be better for them then the Catachan d6 rerolls; Ignoring the -1 when moving and shooting could do it, -1 to hit outside 12" might also be good enough.Outside those two, I'm not sure why you'd pick another regiment (guess we'll see as the spoilers come out).
I hope they're as generous and creative with Orks codex as they have been recently with other armies - but I always gotta keep in mind, I'm not an Imperial, I don't get the good stuff. XD
In the companion thread over in General I worked through the effect of the Catachan doctrine on different kinds of weapons. It's best for d6-shot weapons, where it's a 21% increase in output if you re-roll anything less than a 4, and then is a little less good for d3-shot or 2d6-shot weapons while being pretty unimpressive for 2d6-take-the-highest. That's good, but not remarkably so, especially given that most vehicles with d6-shot weapons will also have other weapons that don't benefit (as much). And since you don't expect to actually need to use the re-roll all that often you can get a lot of the benefit by being willing to use the re-roll stratagem instead.
Just re-rolling 1s to wound would be a significantly better offensive buff overall, I think, since it also helps your lascannons and heavy bolters and whatnot. The Salamanders' tactic would be absolutely nuts, though even moreso on infantry squads than on tanks. And defensive tactics might also be worth looking at. A super-heavy tank with the Raven Guard tactic would be very strong, since it's going to be very happy to charge you if you do get close enough to shoot it, and just in general Guard are very well-equipped to keep things more than 12" away from their valuable stuff.
JohnnyHell wrote: Guard infantry aren't broken? They fall over in a strong breeze...
CSM armies use cultists as they are superior to plain space marines in most situations. Normal guard infantry are cultists with a better armor save. They are also flat out better than rangers/vanguard point for point as well.
Normal guard infantry may be worse than conscripts, but they are still better than anything else. They are tougher point for point than any infantry but conscripts and brimstones.
Well, at those low points everything that offers you a good enough chaff is good. A 25mm base unit with literally no offensive capabilities and no armour but with 1 wound for 1 point would be probably one of the most useful and best units in the game.
Arachnofiend wrote: Okay, so I guess it's just Marine armies that are gonna be limited in what is affected by <> tactics. Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
I expect that the reason is that, because of the way Guard keywords are set up, it's a lot easier for GW to exclude the things they want to be sure to exclude, like flyers. Note that actually lots of Guard stuff doesn't get doctrines. Here's a list of things in Imperium Index 2 that are ASTRA MILITARUM but not <REGIMENT>:
2 Commissars + 1 special character
3 abhumans + 1 special character
Officers of the Fleet and Valkyries
Tech-Priest Enginseers (which are no longer ASTRA MILITARUM in the AdMech codex)
Uriah Jacobus and Ministorum Priests
3 psykers
And then the Forgeworld flyers also lack <REGIMENT>, while Rough Riders at least get nothing from the Catachan doctrine. Forgeworld Earthshaker and Tarantula Batteries lack the VEHICLE keyword and so probably won't get anything out of most doctrines (only those that apply to all AM units without picking out types, probably).
It does seem like the Guard rule is more generous, but it remains limited in some important ways, and there are some big differences in the ways the armies are structured that seem to justify it. I think the upcoming Eldar codex will be a more interesting point of comparison, since no matter what GW does, it will look unfair to somebody. GW will definitely want to exclude their flyers, but it's hard to see what they do about Eldar vehicles. Space Marines have a huge variety of DREADNOUGHT-keyworded units compared to Eldar... Wraithlords? Maybe walkers in general which would bring in War Walkers, though there's currently no keyword which would catch only those two units. Maybe MONSTERS, which would be Wraithlords and Wraithknights, but judging from the AdMech codex GW doesn't want to give traits to Knights. This looks pretty unfair to Eldar. But what's the alternative except to give them traits on grav tanks, which I expect would annoy Marine players?
For Wraithlords I'd be looking to Craftworld Iyanden's trait and for it to be effecting keyword Spirit Host units, so Spiritseers, Wraithseer, Wraithguard/blades, Wraithlord, Wraithfighter and Wraithknight. I don't think them affecting Wraithknights will be too much of a problem given how bad they currently are, but depending on the trait Hemlock's could become even nastier.
As far as Eldar tanks go though, it'll take a lot more than Craftworld traits to make the Falcon and Fire Prism good again, they have far too little damage output for far too high a cost.
For Wraithlords I'd be looking to Craftworld Iyanden's trait and for it to be effecting keyword Spirit Host units, so Spiritseers, Wraithseer, Wraithguard/blades, Wraithlord, Wraithfighter and Wraithknight. I don't think them affecting Wraithknights will be too much of a problem given how bad they currently are, but depending on the trait Hemlock's could become even nastier.
As far as Eldar tanks go though, it'll take a lot more than Craftworld traits to make the Falcon and Fire Prism good again, they have far too little damage output for far too high a cost.
I mean, they could do that, but that'd be a significant break from how they've been handling all of the other codices, where every trait has the same scope across all subfactions. It's true that several of the Craftworlds are very strongly identified with particular units, but the same could be said for Chaos Legions, and both Emperor's Children and World Eaters got Legion Traits that apply broadly (their favored units become Troops rather than Elites though). The same is also true of the White Scars Chapter, but again they got a generally-useful trait (plus a bike-specific stratagem). So I think this is unlikely, and that instead Iyanden is likely to have a stratagem for this or maybe be able to take Wraithguard as Troops.
I was talking less about which units need buffs (since obviously they can and probably will adjust points for Eldar units in the codex) and more about how people would respond to the scope of the traits. The expectation after Codex: Space Marines was that you'd get traits on infantry and bikes and maybe some characteristic vehicles, but not transports and flyers and not on a lot of other big vehicles. Chaos worked basically the same way. Then AdMech got traits on everything, but of course "everything" is not that much for them -- notably, they don't have transports or flyers, and all of their vehicles are walkers. Now Guard are getting traits on a whole bunch of things including transports and super-heavy tanks, though some of their infantry is getting left out. But like I said, I think Guard are in a weird spot, keyword-wise, so it'll be interesting to see if Eldar follow the Space Marine model or whether they'll get traits on almost everything (except flyers and possibly the Knight). I think either way someone's going to feel screwed over, since Marine DREADNOUGHTS are far more varied than Eldar walkers but giving traits to grav tanks (possibly including the super-heavies from Forgeworld) is going to make Razorbacks and Predators and Land Raiders sad.
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: I'd really like to see their conversions for Tallarn and rough riders.. my guess is empire horse gunners..
Individual blisters of just heads and misc bits could go a long way to making existing kits into alternative IG forces
Tallarn had rough rider minis. Here are some of mine.
gainsay wrote: QQ all the kids who wasted money on piles on conscripts and mortars. On to the next WAAC lists!
Which will probably involve either guard infantry or conscripts still so I doubt anyone wasted money. Normal guard infantry are currently, without any doctrine buffs, better than anything any of the codex armies have. GW has made no mention of nerfing them in any capacity. Thus it can be safely assumed they will still be broken.
Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Ok, so we got our conscript nerf (which I'm fine with) but now regular Guard are OP. How did I know this crap was coming?
Maybe we can get a list of approved IG units to use against our opponents. We won't have any troups though, cause I assume if regular squads are OP then Scions are REALLY OP.
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: I'd really like to see their conversions for Tallarn and rough riders.. my guess is empire horse gunners..
Individual blisters of just heads and misc bits could go a long way to making existing kits into alternative IG forces
Tallarn had rough rider minis. Here are some of mine.
gainsay wrote: QQ all the kids who wasted money on piles on conscripts and mortars. On to the next WAAC lists!
Which will probably involve either guard infantry or conscripts still so I doubt anyone wasted money. Normal guard infantry are currently, without any doctrine buffs, better than anything any of the codex armies have. GW has made no mention of nerfing them in any capacity. Thus it can be safely assumed they will still be broken.
Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Don't bother. Silver has an irrational hateboner for the IG. If basic Guard infantry were half as OP as he ceaselessly claims, my mostly infantry guard army's tournament record (7-9-1) would bear some resemblance to my casual game record (30-4-5). It's almost like people who actually know what they're doing are able to deal with hordes or something.
gendoikari87 wrote: so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?
Because fluff is merely something to set on fire.
But it isn't just artillery. Every hull lascannon, heavy flamer or silly hellhound squirt cannon also benefits from this. Lascannons rule, bolters drool.
Even more better tanks for the guard range they need to force sales of. Hmm.
On the other hand, they waited 4 full books to appease the power creep gods, even if the flaws in <word> system were clear with SM.
gendoikari87 wrote: so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?
Because fluff is merely something to set on fire.
But it isn't just artillery. Every hull lascannon, heavy flamer or silly hellhound squirt cannon also benefits from this. Lascannons rule, bolters drool.
Even more better tanks for the guard range they need to force sales of. Hmm.
On the other hand, they waited 4 full books to appease the power creep gods, even if the flaws in <word> system were clear with SM.
Uhhh… which lascannon does random attacks please?
As for the rest, jungle fighters good at using flame throwers? You don’t say….
Ah, right. Got the stat blocks switched in my head. Haven't bothered much with 8th since the codexes starting hitting the floor.
But yeah, you could say it's about jungle fighters being good at using flamers, but that isn't really a transferable skill to artillery. So it comes across as jungle fighters being better at random numbers.
Arachnofiend wrote: Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Because Guard can do all-tank armies, so they have to include a way for someone to play a Cadian tank army. It would be very strange for all a Regiment's special rules to vanish just because there are no infantry there.
But why don't Legion rules affect my Legion Daemon Engines/whatever. That's a separate, and no less valid question. They should. But they don't. Because reasons.
BrookM wrote: The Baneblade is crewed by the same people as the regiment.
gendoikari87 wrote: so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?
Because writing rules is hard, and when every special rule in 8th Ed is a variation on "Get a re-roll", "Get +1/-1 to something" and "Causes Mortal Wounds", it's hard to make that square Catachan peg fit into the round 8th Ed hole.
gainsay wrote: Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Broken now? No. But they are still the third best chaff in the game in terms of durability already, behind conscripts and brimstones. So if conscripts get a nerf but normal guard units get a buff to durability and no price increase, nothing changes besides which guard unit every imperium player takes. Compare them to termagaunts or cultists, or everything in R&H, better stats and options for the same price as said units. The fact guard players think normal infantry squads are bad yet CSM players are glad to have the strictly inferior cultists as a troop option instead of being forced to use normal CSM squads kinda gives you an idea how tactical squads fare as well. Normal guard infantry is already great, it's just overshadowed by conscripts.
As for people insulting me, remember when you insulted me for saying conscripts were broken? Funny how that turned out.
gainsay wrote: Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Broken now? No. But they are still the third best chaff in the game in terms of durability already, behind conscripts and brimstones. So if conscripts get a nerf but normal guard units get a buff to durability and no price increase, nothing changes besides which guard unit every imperium player takes. Compare them to termagaunts or cultists, or everything in R&H, better stats and options for the same price as said units. The fact guard players think normal infantry squads are bad yet CSM players are glad to have the strictly inferior cultists as a troop option instead of being forced to use normal CSM squads kinda gives you an idea how tactical squads fare as well. Normal guard infantry is already great, it's just overshadowed by conscripts.
As for people insulting me, remember when you insulted me for saying conscripts were broken? Funny how that turned out.
I don't think I've met any guard players who think infantry squads are bad, it's pretty obvious from the getgo that they are very good, it's just they're overshadowed by conscripts and stormtroopers who get flashier options and abilities. I run predominately infantry squads and do fairly well with 0 conscripts, albeit I'm in a pretty casual area. I'm sure I'd get wrecked pretty hard by an area that's actually trying.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I don't think I've met any guard players who think infantry squads are bad, it's pretty obvious from the getgo that they are very good, it's just they're overshadowed by conscripts and stormtroopers who get flashier options and abilities. I run predominately infantry squads and do fairly well with 0 conscripts, albeit I'm in a pretty casual area. I'm sure I'd get wrecked pretty hard by an area that's actually trying.
Yeah, I don't think a guard army will face roll people using normal guard squads. Or even conscripts, if their opponents is optimized. Pure guard doesn't really do great because they are missing some of the elements that work well this edition. A single character that let them reroll all misses in range would do wonders for their mostly 4+ army. So the guards cheap chaff really shine when used by any other imperial army with something dangerous enough to actually be worth protecting.
Of course, if guard do get some buffs to other areas and normal squads become strong enough to step into the gap left post conscript nerf (assuminf the nerf even really changes things) that may be a different story. But I think it's more likely guard will continue being the infantry part of all imperial soup lists, probably at the same rough effectiveness.
gainsay wrote: Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Broken now? No. But they are still the third best chaff in the game in terms of durability already, behind conscripts and brimstones. So if conscripts get a nerf but normal guard units get a buff to durability and no price increase, nothing changes besides which guard unit every imperium player takes. Compare them to termagaunts or cultists, or everything in R&H, better stats and options for the same price as said units. The fact guard players think normal infantry squads are bad yet CSM players are glad to have the strictly inferior cultists as a troop option instead of being forced to use normal CSM squads kinda gives you an idea how tactical squads fare as well. Normal guard infantry is already great, it's just overshadowed by conscripts.
As for people insulting me, remember when you insulted me for saying conscripts were broken? Funny how that turned out.
I don't think I've met any guard players who think infantry squads are bad, it's pretty obvious from the getgo that they are very good, it's just they're overshadowed by conscripts and stormtroopers who get flashier options and abilities. I run predominately infantry squads and do fairly well with 0 conscripts, albeit I'm in a pretty casual area. I'm sure I'd get wrecked pretty hard by an area that's actually trying.
That said, regular Guard squads were VERY good, but they just weren't as good as Scions and Conscripts working in tandem because that was literally broken. I don't think people understand how durable Guard infantry became because they don't need to sit in cover now because Bolters, the weapon that SHOULD be doing heavy damage on them, doesn't do jack to their armor now. Sternguard just barely ignore the save with special Bolters! Top that off with the matter that most weapons are more point efficient towards a Tactical Marine (the Heavy Bolter being the worst offender) and you got a mess of trouble.
gendoikari87 wrote: so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?
Because writing rules is hard, and when every special rule in 8th Ed is a variation on "Get a re-roll", "Get +1/-1 to something" and "Causes Mortal Wounds", it's hard to make that square Catachan peg fit into the round 8th Ed hole.
Truthfully, I figured they were the stealth guys, so they'd get the '-1 to hit at 12" or more' rule more or less by default. But then, I have a hard time seeing the Rambo army as a square peg. Just a boring anachronism.
Crimson Devil wrote: Catachans are based on the US Military during the Vietnam war. Rambo is an influence but not the whole idea behind them. Just the stereotype.
An Infantry army with artillery support is a very fluffy Catachan army.
This. I suggest people read up on the various Guard regiment combat doctrines in the fluff. It might go someway to explain why GW chose them, rather than "x regiment gets re-rolls to y? That doesn't make sense!" Every. Other. Post.
If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies
Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!
BrookM wrote: If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies
Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!
Yeah man, my Scions need some help in the form of buffs. They don't want to be the best unit in the world, they want to be the best unit in the whole universe. How about every 6 to wound causes a mortal wound in addition to normal damage? Or how about an automatic re-roll 1's to hit?
The Catachan one is really sweet for the Shadowsword. Or the Hellhounds, or Sentinels with heavy flamers. It still won't make Leman Russes good though.
People are wondering why catachans get a trait that affects their vehicles, as they aren't known for using vehicles much. It's a fair question.
I'd speculate that the reason is every regiment will get a trait that has this kind of dual effect on infantry and vehicles. It would be weird if catachans stood out as having better tanks, but not if it's the template that everyone follows.
And if that is the case, then a trait that improves the effect of their flamers and explosions makes sense for catachans.
Therion wrote: Yeah man, my Scions need some help in the form of buffs. They don't want to be the best unit in the world, they want to be the best unit in the whole universe. How about every 6 to wound causes a mortal wound in addition to normal damage? Or how about an automatic re-roll 1's to hit?
The Catachan one is really sweet for the Shadowsword. Or the Hellhounds, or Sentinels with heavy flamers. It still won't make Leman Russes good though.
I am nervous to see what they're planning to do with the Scions, if you want to play them battle-forged there is already very little they can take (Commissars, Tempestor Prime, Command Squad, Scions Squad and Taurox Prime), but it's either a buff to shooting or a buff to their deep-striking shenanigans if I were to hazard a guess. Or just make them cheaper, 10 pts per Scion isn't bad, but it's still a fething struggle to wound a lot of stuff out there with a S3 hellgun.
I'd be careful with the "On a 6 you also get a Mortal Wound" suggestion, it's a trigger issue for some posters around here.
Mandragola wrote: People are wondering why catachans get a trait that affects their vehicles, as they aren't known for using vehicles much. It's a fair question.
I'd speculate that the reason is every regiment will get a trait that has this kind of dual effect on infantry and vehicles. It would be weird if catachans stood out as having better tanks, but not if it's the template that everyone follows.
And if that is the case, then a trait that improves the effect of their flamers and explosions makes sense for catachans.
The did mention that the Catachans have a special order that involves flamers, "Burn Them Out!" so we can also look forward to each of the regiments having at least one custom-tailored order of their own to go with the strategems and regimental doctrines.
Anyone else worried that GW is still going to let command squads be used as pure special weapon teams? Might as well delete the special weapon team entry.
I was really hoping they'd have done something about command squad spam.
gendoikari87 wrote: so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?
Because writing rules is hard, and when every special rule in 8th Ed is a variation on "Get a re-roll", "Get +1/-1 to something" and "Causes Mortal Wounds", it's hard to make that square Catachan peg fit into the round 8th Ed hole.
Truthfully, I figured they were the stealth guys, so they'd get the '-1 to hit at 12" or more' rule more or less by default. But then, I have a hard time seeing the Rambo army as a square peg. Just a boring anachronism.
I would hazard a guess that the stealth element might show up as the Catachan specific Warlord Trait, much like how the Metallica Forge World got the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic as their's (Units fall back and can fire normally at -1 BS).
I think the doctrine is appropriate since we are talking about the regiment based on the US in the Vietnam war, which was about close quarters fighting with strategic artillery and airstrikes as support. I wonder if this will make people take a second glance at their Valkyries (although I doubt it)
I'd be pretty surprised by that seeing as how all 3 major factions released so far have had an exact copy of not just the Raven Guard tactic but also their stratagem.
BrookM wrote: If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies
Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!
My guess on Mordians is that if the entirety of a squad is in base contact with itself, it gets +1 attack and its lasguns get +1 to its rapidfire (so rapid fire 2 base, rapid fire 3 with FRFSRF). I guess we'll see later today when they do the community post though.
They said Mordians are better at defensive fire in the Catachan preview, so I bet it's going to be +1 to hit on overwatch and maybe an extra shot in Rapid Fire Range.
I don't think everything is going to be as big as Catachans - I think even GW realized just making Catachans +1 Strength and LD with officers nearby would've been a waste in an army like the Imperial Guard.
BrookM wrote: If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies
Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!
My guess on Mordians is that if the entirety of a squad is in base contact with itself, it gets +1 attack and its lasguns get +1 to its rapidfire (so rapid fire 2 base, rapid fire 3 with FRFSRF). I guess we'll see later today when they do the community post though.
It would be fun to see Close Order Drill make a return, it certainly isn't as suicidal as it used to be! +1 A sounds feasible, though if I were really bold, even cooler would be to be able to hit assaulting units first as they plough into a wall of waiting bayonets.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'd be pretty surprised by that seeing as how all 3 major factions released so far have had an exact copy of not just the Raven Guard tactic but also their stratagem.
Well, it'd either be tallarn or.... maybe scions? Be a bit redundant on militarum tempestus overall, but would fit fairly well.
Does your whole detachment need to be the same regiment to get the bonus? If so, that's a subtle nerf to Scions, as you'll want to have a detachment of your basic force, and then a scions one.
Polonius wrote: Does your whole detachment need to be the same regiment to get the bonus? If so, that's a subtle nerf to Scions, as you'll want to have a detachment of your basic force, and then a scions one.
We don't know, but this seems likely. It's how all the other codices have worked. Granted, Guard are probably going to need a more comprehensive way of excluding certain units from consideration when determining eligibility for traits, unless they want to make it hard to bring the many ASTRA MILITARUM units which don't have <REGIMENT>. But you'd think they'd do something like: "You get traits if the whole detachment is ASTRA MILITARUM and every unit with <REGIMENT> has the same one."
vonjankmon wrote: I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:
Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?
Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.
Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.
Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.
No Chapter Tactic type rule that we've seen so far has been limited in this way -- GW seems committed to making them apply very broadly. They use stratagems to emphasize a subfaction's favored units or weapons. It strikes me as pretty implausible that Catachans getting re-rolls on artillery just sort of snuck in without them thinking about it.
It will be interesting to see how they'll incorporate <MILITARUM AUXILLA> and <ADEPTUS ASTRA TELEPATHICA> into this whole thing without losing the buffs.
vonjankmon wrote: I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:
Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?
Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.
Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.
Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.
More likely it went..
Designer A: So Catachans, we need to do something to sell through some of the worst designed miniatures we ever produced. Because if we don't sell the stock that has been in the warehouse for the last decade the board says were getting our bonus paid.in them.
Designer B: Well we cannot push them to the "collectors" or painters unless we have some blind painter. We could ignore all previous examples of chapter tactics and give them rules that effect the whole army infantry and tanks.
Designer A: Hmmm that could work but let's stack 3 or 4 bonuses to appeal to the real power gamers, they will by multiples of any old gak if they think it gives them an advantage.
Designer B: Yeah your right we even had to restrict the amount of RATLINGS you can buy in one go from the webstore. What about the other armies though won't they be concerned about power creep?
Designer A: No worries it's a "Living" ruleset now we can give it a month and nerf them into the ground and they will just move on to the next op thing. He'll we already invalidated a big chunk of the 8th rule bòok turning it back to 7th within a few weeks of releasing it and they keep buying it without complaint.
Power creep? Until we know exactly what tactics they get, we already had admech get a couple powerful bonuses across their entire army, vehicles included. While catachan gives a lot of bonuses, for infantry it is str and ld. You still don't have much on orks, just makes melee guard worth looking at with lots of support. As for rerolling random shots, I'd take the - to incoming fire.
The only power creep thing I see is the super heavies getting he bonuses.
Silentz wrote: Sean, do you not sometimes bore yourself? I can't believe you can make it to the end of your own posts.
Yeah I can manage more than one sentence, but I will not rub it in I know some people struggle.
But care to refute my points?
The rules exist to sell God awful models with a high chance of them being subsequently nerfed due to "feedback" which will be shortly after they get rid of the on hand stock.
Arachnofiend wrote: Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?
Because Guard can do all-tank armies, so they have to include a way for someone to play a Cadian tank army. It would be very strange for all a Regiment's special rules to vanish just because there are no infantry there.
But why don't Legion rules affect my Legion Daemon Engines/whatever. That's a separate, and no less valid question. They should. But they don't. Because reasons.
It's like people will say anything without thinking critically about it and fall back on their bias to carry the day.
It's easy to say something negative and let popular opinion wash over you.
It's easy to say, "What about me?" and get grumbles of approval.
I'm sure there is absolutely no downside to give predators -1 to hit. Or maulerfiends run and charge. Or stormravens fallback and shoot.
You people bitch and moan about things like stormraven spam, but given half the chance you'd make rules that brought that back. Fast and durable models don't get CT.
Every single Salamander marine, bike, and dreadnought gets a hit and wound reroll every turn, but give IG a reroll for random shot weapons and the world is on fire.
When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?
All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.
The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.
schadenfreude wrote: The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.
Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.
"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.
Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).
Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?
All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.
Yeah it plays like a wired mishmash of AoS and Warmahordes, but less fun.
Your best abilities are tied to buff bubbles that are often slower than the units they support, leading to to the best option being to remain stationary in a game that is supposed to be about taking objectives.
Alternatively you end up with AoS style conga lines of doom, schrodingers Baneblade and all the other good stuff.
Also I am not sure GW have quite got the hang of synergy yet the have Skornegy nailed though. But at least they are trying to bring the designs more in line with modern games they have left the 80's and may have reached the mid 90's but it is a start.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?
All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.
Yeah it plays like a wired mishmash of AoS and Warmahordes, but less fun.
Your best abilities are tied to buff bubbles that are often slower than the units they support, leading to to the best option being to remain stationary in a game that is supposed to be about taking objectives.
Alternatively you end up with AoS style conga lines of doom, schrodingers Baneblade and all the other good stuff.
Also I am not sure GW have quite got the hang of synergy yet the have Skornegy nailed though. But at least they are trying to bring the designs more in line with modern games they have left the 80's and may have reached the mid 90's but it is a start.
What is "shrodinger's Baneblade"? Is it both alive and dead at the same time until we observe it?
schadenfreude wrote: The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.
Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.
"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.
Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).
Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.
White shields are not trained to the level of cadians.
All of the rest you have described are not part of a regiment and are unfamiliar with it's doctrine.
You did touch on one huge point: Bring back the penal legions.
schadenfreude wrote: The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.
Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.
"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.
Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).
Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.
White shields are not trained to the level of cadians.
All of the rest you have described are not part of a regiment and are unfamiliar with it's doctrine.
You did touch on one huge point: Bring back the penal legions.
I mean, conscripts are pretty familiar with Valhallan doctrine.
After all, their infantry regiments' doctrine is "here are some conscripts."
gainsay wrote: Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.
Broken now? No. But they are still the third best chaff in the game in terms of durability already, behind conscripts and brimstones. So if conscripts get a nerf but normal guard units get a buff to durability and no price increase, nothing changes besides which guard unit every imperium player takes. Compare them to termagaunts or cultists, or everything in R&H, better stats and options for the same price as said units. The fact guard players think normal infantry squads are bad yet CSM players are glad to have the strictly inferior cultists as a troop option instead of being forced to use normal CSM squads kinda gives you an idea how tactical squads fare as well. Normal guard infantry is already great, it's just overshadowed by conscripts.
As for people insulting me, remember when you insulted me for saying conscripts were broken? Funny how that turned out.
I don't think I've met any guard players who think infantry squads are bad, it's pretty obvious from the getgo that they are very good, it's just they're overshadowed by conscripts and stormtroopers who get flashier options and abilities. I run predominately infantry squads and do fairly well with 0 conscripts, albeit I'm in a pretty casual area. I'm sure I'd get wrecked pretty hard by an area that's actually trying.
I use three infantry squads and they are basically a 10 wound missile launcher for 60points that are very squishy. They really dont do much other than die or wrap stuff. Saying they are "OP" because of point cost is ridiculous. Vets in a chimera are actually really good but serve an entirely different purpose than conscripts so why compare the two?
Since this is a committee and all, how about a unit that for 10pts a model you get a lance, laspistol, chainsword, two wounds and they can deepstrike. Thats a much better deal than guardmens squads...
I'm just excited that GW is giving my 24 year old IG models actual rules and if they suck or not im happy anyways. I thought my minis were offically dead a long time long ago.
vonjankmon wrote: I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:
Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?
Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.
Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.
Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.
If the Catachan are based upon Vietnam War era tactics and Rambo.. Wouldn't they be really good at bombing people hiding in the jungles as well? Demolition Charges and Explosives are also the realm of Catachan, and destroying peoples cover/bombing them when they think they are safe would be a good way of showing it.
Yeah I have said it before (though apparently not in this thread):
Of the three Regiments who got playable Special Character Baneblades, you have:
Koenig Armoured (fair enough, tank regiment)
Armageddon Steel Legion (still known for it's vehicles)
Catachans
So clearly, GW thinks Catachans are at least to some extent familiar with and routinely use armoured vehicles, to the point where they gave them a special-character superheavy in Warzone: Pandorax.
Well yes, they have to. I mean as much as everyone likes to dot on the idea of somehow superhuman Catachans who don't use transports, vehicles, or anything else at all..
They would have to in order to be a viable regiment. If they couldn't operate even your basic chimera they'd be having some major issues, and sometimes they will find worlds that require some more massive firepower then "Men shootin' from the tree's" can provide.
So beyond the constant crying people. Catachan still sucks imho +1 str is useless and+1 ld is mostly useless on all bit kinda straken it would have been decent on rough riders and ogryns but nope. And catachan have the most ogryns but nope still.
The multi shot vehicle wpn buff still doesn't make tanks that suck good enough to take.
The deathstrike strategem still is useless for a massive 3cp because while it's a ton on mortal wounds on a single unit it's pointless when the death strike will be lucky to go off before turn 5...
The only thing catachan tactics are good for are a 2-3 basilisk platforms and harker (as long as he wasn't nerfed).
Also I fully expect scions to get -1 hit past 12in so you have to choose between rapid fire plasma or -1 hit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?
All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.
To be honest I find the number of Mortal Wounds in 8th much less numerous than in AoS. And thats something because 8th has more models with invulnerables and 2+ saves. Personally I like it this way.
So Conscripts definitely benefit from doctrines still. Leman Russes can fire their main guns twice at full BS while moving up to half of their maximum speed. There's a generic 1 CP stratagem that lets you Overwatch on a 5+.
The Mordian order turns plasma guns into fantastic sniper rifles. Their trait seems a lot less impressive, but it's not nothing.
ph34r wrote: Well boys, are Leman Russes fixed now?
offensively with point reduction and double fire primary yes. They are still about as durable as a wet paper towel but if plasma drop gets nerfed then we have a strong return of the tank company.
I've never seen anyone play mordians. I've seen steel legion, tallarn, dkok, Elysian, Valhallan and vostroyan... never seen praetorian either..
Yeah, I think people will be playing Mordia to get the order, with the other stuff being a bonus. Suddenly, a lot of almost unkillable blobs will be getting a lot weaker... no more hiding weak buff characters behind a horde.
Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.
That was short.
Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.
Zewrath wrote: Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!
People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.
Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .
I am not surprised to see that conscripts get regimental tactics. If they didn’t, you might have ended up with problems where not all the units in the detachment were from a single regiment. If IG work like all the other codices so far, that would have meant they’d lose their regimental tactics.
Come to think of it, this might be a problem for other types of unit too. All the various auxiliaries (ogryns, commissars, psykers and so on) won’t be from the <regiment>. I wonder if there’s a way around this, short of taking a vanguard full of plasma scions (which would be a huge hardship, I’m sure you agree).
Anyway regiment tactics aren't the problem with conscripts. The problem is how they interact with commissars (a big bonus for a very low 3 point cost) and orders (hugely efficient when given to a vast unit). It's those problems that I hope they fix - especially the commissar one. If they did that I'd have no issue with them getting some rerolls - though amusingly Mordian conscripts are basically as good at overwatch as they are at firing normally.
Really happy to see that Leman Russ are getting a buff. 2D6 shot battlecannons sound like lots of fun… especially for catachans, now I think about it. I demand to see the steel legion preview immediately.
Zewrath wrote: Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!
People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.
Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .
It's an order, so it'll be usable with all Mordian infantry. They bring up veterans because veterans can bring more plasma guns at higher BS.
Honestly, LRBTs have similar firepower to Baneblades now ... Baneblades are still better, and I'm not complaining, but I'm happy to see my Super Heavy Tank Regiment be one of many viable Imperial Guard armoured formations rather than just being the only useful one.
Leman Russes could be viable now. Especially if they are Catachan! You get to reroll BOTH 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3 shots ... Sounding a hell of a lot better. Imagine if they "fix" the exterminator autocannon and it can for twice. Woof.
Zewrath wrote: Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!
People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.
Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .
Silentz wrote: Sean, do you not sometimes bore yourself? I can't believe you can make it to the end of your own posts.
Yeah I can manage more than one sentence, but I will not rub it in I know some people struggle.
But care to refute my points?
The rules exist to sell God awful models with a high chance of them being subsequently nerfed due to "feedback" which will be shortly after they get rid of the on hand stock.
So now we're crummy interneters if we don't write every post like it's a formal letter?
Tyr13 wrote: Yeah, I think people will be playing Mordia to get the order, with the other stuff being a bonus. Suddenly, a lot of almost unkillable blobs will be getting a lot weaker... no more hiding weak buff characters behind a horde.
I was thinking about it, and while it looks good at first, what do guard have that could use it? Normal lasguns don't do anything (a full unit of conscripts won't kill a basic chaos lord I realized, much less a terminator lord). A command squad with four plasma in RF range, which is a major issue as you'll know if you've ever tried using short range psychic powers on characters, overcharging their plasma won't do it either.
They also won't have any way to get close but a chimera, as deepstriking scions can't use it.
All in all, it has moments, but it isn't that amazing.
Zewrath wrote: Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!
People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.
Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .
IIRC the average result of d6 with reroll is ~4,47. So a rough average of 9 shots rather than 7 shots. Unless the other doctrines include something Raven Guard-esque bonus, I don't see the point in not taking free buffs to your tanks and artillery.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.
That was short.
Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.
That!
And it is still unclear what will happen to scions and what exactly the nerf to conscripts is.
Yeah, its not like Leman Russes where OP. For now it appears they are gonna nerf the broken stuff and buff and fix (Or try to fix) the weak stuff in the Imperial Guard army. So, basically, what one should expect from balance changes.
Really excited about the leman Russ's buff, notice the rule says your next turn so no double shot first turn though. Also didn't know the vostroyans outraged thier enemies. Whats the fluff for that?
Zewrath wrote: IIRC the average result of d6 with reroll is ~4,47. So a rough average of 9 shots rather than 7 shots. Unless the other doctrines include something Raven Guard-esque bonus, I don't see the point in not taking free buffs to your tanks and artillery.
That's the result of roll 2 take the higher I'm fairly sure. If you reroll every value below a 4, you come out with 4.25. 4.167 if you keep rolls of 3, which many prefer to do.
The big advantage is avoiding those rolls of 1/2 anyways. Which helps even out your damage a lot.
Twoshoes23 wrote: Really excited about the leman Russ's buff, notice the rule says your next turn so no double shot first turn though. Also didn't know the vostroyans outraged thier enemies. Whats the fluff for that?
It's "the following Shooting phase". So it doesn't apply to Overwatch, but you do get it every turn.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Don't see why Mordian's suck, I love it. Finally get my favorite regiment some love.
I think that probably most people are coming at this from the perspective of a meta where (1) CC is not a huge deal and (2) you have throwaway screens to stop it from getting to anything important anyway. It's still almost always going to be better to stop something from charging your big stuff in the first place than to get charged and fire better Overwatch. The major beneficiary is Conscripts, but of course having to have everything be in btb to get the bonus is a pretty big drawback for them, since ordinarily you'd prefer to have them spread out to more efficiently screen your other things.
Twoshoes23 wrote: Really excited about the leman Russ's buff, notice the rule says your next turn so no double shot first turn though. Also didn't know the vostroyans outraged thier enemies. Whats the fluff for that?
Nope. It doesn't say in the next turn, it says in the following shooting phase. The shooting phase that follows the movement phase.
It would make no sense whatsoever if standing still in turn 1 meant that you could race forward and fire twice in turn 2.
gendoikari87 wrote: So anyone else notice you can hit on 4s with conscripts in overwatch with mordians but still only 5 in the shooting phase.
Also nope - or at least not by what we've seen so far. Defensive gunners is a stratagem that works on vehicles. Conscripts aren't vehicles and do not have gunners - though I'm sure that in 10,000 years of the imperium somebody has tried having a conscript carry a ratling sniper around.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.
That was short.
Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.
First off there will several of them (8?) and these advantages are free. The only disadvantage is you don't take some other advantage.
Second off these advantages have little to do with Catachans, no stealth, no infiltrate, just +1 strength and better weapons with random hits. Multiply by a half dozen or more doctrines and try to remember the details.
Third it's tied to modelling rather than a generic 'Death World' infantry or whatever. So we either have to be rude sticklers (you can't use that because your army is not 100% Catachan models) or it becomes meaningless (this is my Praetorian army that counts as Catachans).
Obviously we already saw this with the SM chapter rules and the Adeptus Mech forge world rules so as each faction gets their Craftworld/Hive Fleet/Clan/whatever rules the game is quickly going to become as full of nonsense as 7th.
Looking forward to the great 8th edition reboot, simplification.
Ahh my mistake * reaches for coffee pot . I hope people don't get bent out of shape about these regimental rules, they are benifiting an army that already has good things going for it. My only worry is if GW restrict unit options depending upon which regiment you choose for your battle forged detachments.
But... that's what most people wanted. And still want. I know some hate CT, but the majority of people are happy about them. It's probably gotten more praise than anything else this edition. People want that level of army customization.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.
That was short.
Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.
First off there will several of them (8?) and these advantages are free. The only disadvantage is you don't take some other advantage.
Second off these advantages have little to do with Catachans, no stealth, no infiltrate, just +1 strength and better weapons with random hits. Multiply by a half dozen or more doctrines and try to remember the details.
Third it's tied to modelling rather than a generic 'Death World' infantry or whatever. So we either have to be rude sticklers (you can't use that because your army is not 100% Catachan models) or it becomes meaningless (this is my Praetorian army that counts as Catachans).
Obviously we already saw this with the SM chapter rules and the Adeptus Mech forge world rules so as each faction gets their Craftworld/Hive Fleet/Clan/whatever rules the game is quickly going to become as full of nonsense as 7th.
Looking forward to the great 8th edition reboot, simplification.
Having one army-wide special rule to remember isn't even close to the complete mess that was 7th. Everything else (stratagems and for AM, orders) is tied to an expendable resource.
NivlacSupreme wrote: Interestingly the Mordian article has a picture of a Lascannon they don't make anymore.
Don't forget making a point of stating how good Mordian plasma gunners that have never existed outside of conversions will be.
.
Why gw won't just make a basic weapons spruce for sale? Now with their advocation of conversions happening is a great time to introduce something like that I.e Militarum sized bolters, plasma guns, meltaguns, etc
First off there will several of them (8?) and these advantages are free. The only disadvantage is you don't take some other advantage.
And? Every army is getting this treatment.
Second off these advantages have little to do with Catachans, no stealth, no infiltrate, just +1 strength and better weapons with random hits. Multiply by a half dozen or more doctrines and try to remember the details.
Catachan are not a 100% stealth army like Raven Guard. We have no idea if they'll have stratagems for infiltrate or other such things. Maybe we should just....wait?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.
That was short.
Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.
First off there will several of them (8?) and these advantages are free. The only disadvantage is you don't take some other advantage.
Second off these advantages have little to do with Catachans, no stealth, no infiltrate, just +1 strength and better weapons with random hits. Multiply by a half dozen or more doctrines and try to remember the details.
Third it's tied to modelling rather than a generic 'Death World' infantry or whatever. So we either have to be rude sticklers (you can't use that because your army is not 100% Catachan models) or it becomes meaningless (this is my Praetorian army that counts as Catachans).
Obviously we already saw this with the SM chapter rules and the Adeptus Mech forge world rules so as each faction gets their Craftworld/Hive Fleet/Clan/whatever rules the game is quickly going to become as full of nonsense as 7th.
Looking forward to the great 8th edition reboot, simplification.
Having one army-wide special rule to remember isn't even close to the complete mess that was 7th. Everything else (stratagems and for AM, orders) is tied to an expendable resource.
Indeed. I get that bloat is bad but so far I haven't struggled with the fact that my crimson fists ignore cover. It's not too hard to remember.
Some people are complaining that catachans should be able to infiltrate and/or be camouflaged. I get where that's coming from, but the problem is that, if they had all the bonuses they get in the fluff, they'd be bloody amazing. They'd really need to be a different unit entry, not just the same guys with a slightly different rule. And actually that would be no bad thing - you could even look at whether their vests (if they are even wearing them) really ought to count as flak armour!
NivlacSupreme wrote: Interestingly the Mordian article has a picture of a Lascannon they don't make anymore.
Don't forget making a point of stating how good Mordian plasma gunners that have never existed outside of conversions will be.
.
Why gw won't just make a basic weapons spruce for sale? Now with their advocation of conversions happening is a great time to introduce something like that I.e Militarum sized bolters, plasma guns, meltaguns, etc
I've sliced up some of my Praetorians to change lasguns to plasma.
Plus, I ended up with some recast conversions in a job lot I picked up from eBay where the Grenade Launcher figure had been amended.
SilverAlien wrote: But... that's what most people wanted. And still want. I know some hate CT, but the majority of people are happy about them. It's probably gotten more praise than anything else this edition. People want that level of army customization.
Chapter Tactics are the sweet spot between cumbersome formation-specific rules and a bland my-army-always-fights-the-same-way approach. It's nice to see different flavours of the same codex around, especially if you tend to fight the same opponents regularly.
I can see a lot of underwhelming units getting some mileage by pairing them with the right armywide tactic, and not just for AM. I'm dying to see what Hive Fleet Tactics bring to the table.
NivlacSupreme wrote: Interestingly the Mordian article has a picture of a Lascannon they don't make anymore.
Also... I may be wrong, but those models look like they were painted a bit more recently than the webstore Mordians... Maybe theyll rerelease some of the OOP stuff? Itd give them some extra releases without having to design totally new models at least...
SilverAlien wrote: But... that's what most people wanted. And still want. I know some hate CT, but the majority of people are happy about them. It's probably gotten more praise than anything else this edition. People want that level of army customization.
Chapter Tactics are the sweet spot between cumbersome formation-specific rules and a bland my-army-always-fights-the-same-way approach. It's nice to see different flavours of the same codex around, especially if you tend to fight the same opponents regularly.
I can see a lot of underwhelming units getting some mileage by pairing them with the right armywide tactic, and not just for AM. I'm dying to see what Hive Fleet Tactics bring to the table.
Plus they avoid the power gaming potential of mix and match regimental tactics. At worst you mix 2-3 tactics by taking different detachments with different roles. Sweet spot describes it perfectly.
Anyway, this is fine. It actually fits the fluff of the guard to have an infantry regiment from one planet supported by a tank regiment from somewhere else altogether.
Anyway, this is fine. It actually fits the fluff of the guard to have an infantry regiment from one planet supported by a tank regiment from somewhere else altogether.
Tomorrow will be about mortal wound-handing-out vostroyan manticores and basilisks, rather than 4+ executioner overwatch.
I think that probably most people are coming at this from the perspective of a meta where (1) CC is not a huge deal and (2) you have throwaway screens to stop it from getting to anything important anyway. It's still almost always going to be better to stop something from charging your big stuff in the first place than to get charged and fire better
Pretty much this. I love my Mordians but am a bit underwhelmed at their doctrine. Would have preferred some take on FRFSRF buff to reflect their disciplined fire ranks.
Zewrath wrote: IIRC the average result of d6 with reroll is ~4,47. So a rough average of 9 shots rather than 7 shots. Unless the other doctrines include something Raven Guard-esque bonus, I don't see the point in not taking free buffs to your tanks and artillery.
That's the result of roll 2 take the higher I'm fairly sure. If you reroll every value below a 4, you come out with 4.25. 4.167 if you keep rolls of 3, which many prefer to do.
The big advantage is avoiding those rolls of 1/2 anyways. Which helps even out your damage a lot.
Ah, fair enough, I misread that google search then. Still.. free buffs, lol. Especially good basilisk that gets to roll 2d6 + 1 reroll and the pick the highest result. Sounds quite reliable to me.
Damn. And I was hoping for something that allows firing all weapons at full BS on the move...
Wait and see I guess. I don't know what's actually coming, but if someone like steel legion got that kind of buff it wouldn't be a massive surprise, would it?
On balance I don't really like the Mordian buff. The unit it benefits most are conscripts, and I don't think conscripts fit with the Mordian image at all.
Damn. And I was hoping for something that allows firing all weapons at full BS on the move...
Wait and see I guess. I don't know what's actually coming, but if someone like steel legion got that kind of buff it wouldn't be a massive surprise, would it?
On balance I don't really like the Mordian buff. The unit it benefits most are conscripts, and I don't think conscripts fit with the Mordian image at all.
A little too early to tell if Conscripts are capable of benefitting from it, as we've not yet seen the changes GW said is coming to them.
Second off these advantages have little to do with Catachans, no stealth, no infiltrate, just +1 strength and better weapons with random hits.
+1 strenght looks kinda appropriate. Stealth and infiltration... well, Catachans are jungle fighters so why should they get those boni - for example - in deserts or ruined cities? While a nice addition, the Catachan codex made them (pure DW army) nearly unplayable in normal games as they paid for rules that affected only a minority of games. Such special rules should be left to campaign books or supplements dealing with the jungle theme (or another Shadow War game).
Remember they hinted that the conscript nerf had to do with their lack of discipline.
One thing someone mentioned as a possibility was that orders would be going off on a 4+ instead of being automatic. Perhaps Conscripts orders go off on a 5+? What if units got something like a order stat where they successfully manifest orders on X roll.
Another area where this could manifest is in how conscripts interact with commissars. Maybe instead of just losing 1, they lose 1/2 rounded down?
There are plenty of ways that they could be modified to represent the way things are changed.
Once again all of this is conjecture and I have no solid evidence to back it up but something to think about until we know for sure.
A little too early to tell if Conscripts are capable of benefitting from it, as we've not yet seen the changes GW said is coming to them.
The article is explicit that Conscripts benefit.
So it is.
Makes me wonder what nerfs they were meaning when they said Conscripts were changing. They'd have to be fairly major to counter act that.
Could be all their infantry getting a point increase. They're worth that much anyway when nothing ignores their armor besides things like Rubric and Sternguard Bolters.
So, i'm curious as to whether the new Grinding Assault rule will transfer across to the FWLRs. If so, suddenly the FW Vanquisher is pretty interesting when within 24" of it's target at the start of the turn.
2 shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling hits, 2d6 pick the highest dmg at str 8 -3.
As for the Mordian order - i think this now gives a nod towards chimera rush command/vet/special weapon squads. One way to plasma/melta a character off the table - and if you have a handful of LRs providing more pressing targets, they should be able to get to where you want them.
Kdash wrote: So, i'm curious as to whether the new Grinding Assault rule will transfer across to the FWLRs. If so, suddenly the FW Vanquisher is pretty interesting when within 24" of it's target at the start of the turn.
I definitely wonder this myself. Up until now I have favored the idea of taking Conquerors, and this buff makes them better too.
Yeah, sorry. I work nights (and had an especially traumatic one last night) and live in the central US so I was already in bed when the article hit. I will update the article once I am done taking care of some stuff.
Kdash wrote: So, i'm curious as to whether the new Grinding Assault rule will transfer across to the FWLRs. If so, suddenly the FW Vanquisher is pretty interesting when within 24" of it's target at the start of the turn.
Some members in my group are adamant that the Mordian rule doesn't work RAW because the main rulebook states that overwatch only ever hits on a 6 and never benefits from or suffers modifiers.
Drdaniel5 wrote: Some members in my group are adamant that the Mordian rule doesn't work RAW because the main rulebook states that overwatch only ever hits on a 6 and never benefits from or suffers modifiers.
Yeah, this seems to clearly be right. Overwatch doesn't say that you don't get modifiers -- this isn't a case of a specific rule over-riding a general one -- it just says that modifiers have no effect on whether or not the shot actually hits. To-hit modifiers still matter for things like determining whether your plasma overheats, and RAW this appears to be what the doctrine is good for. Of course, this is just obviously not what's intended and it's hard to imagine anyone seriously insisting that they think this is how it should be played.
Drdaniel5 wrote: Some members in my group are adamant that the Mordian rule doesn't work RAW because the main rulebook states that overwatch only ever hits on a 6 and never benefits from or suffers modifiers.
Yeah, this seems to clearly be right. Overwatch doesn't say that you don't get modifiers -- this isn't a case of a specific rule over-riding a general one -- it just says that modifiers have no effect on whether or not the shot actually hits. To-hit modifiers still matter for things like determining whether your plasma overheats, and RAW this appears to be what the doctrine is good for. Of course, this is just obviously not what's intended and it's hard to imagine anyone seriously insisting that they think this is how it should be played.
Specific rules beat general rules. Generally, hit modifiers don't affect overwatch - but in this specific case it says that this modifier does.
Glad to see Guard haters or players who enjoyed stomping Guard armies get all uppity now we have dome good stuff too.
Seriously, I can see oceans of salt over the guard codex, and it's already begun in YMDC, where some one is insisting tanks have to move to fire the main cannon twice...
Mandragola wrote: Specific rules beat general rules. Generally, hit modifiers don't affect overwatch - but in this specific case it says that this modifier does.
Well no the actual wording isn't that hit modifiers don't effect overwatch, it's that overwatch only hits on a 6+ regardless of modifiers or BS. So a rule saying overwatch hits on a 5+ would overwrite the limitation, as specific beats general.
However, in the case of a +1 to overwatch specifically, the +1 still doesn't help as you need a natural 6 regardless of modifiers, even modifiers hat specifically only apply to overwatch. It isn't specific overwriting general, as you can modify overwatch while still requiring a natural 6 to hit.
It's dumb, but by raw a specific +x to overwatch can never do anything. You have to directly modify the required roll, which makes stacking bonuses all but impossible, which I had assumed was the original intent until now.
Drdaniel5 wrote: Some members in my group are adamant that the Mordian rule doesn't work RAW because the main rulebook states that overwatch only ever hits on a 6 and never benefits from or suffers modifiers.
Yeah, this seems to clearly be right. Overwatch doesn't say that you don't get modifiers -- this isn't a case of a specific rule over-riding a general one -- it just says that modifiers have no effect on whether or not the shot actually hits. To-hit modifiers still matter for things like determining whether your plasma overheats, and RAW this appears to be what the doctrine is good for. Of course, this is just obviously not what's intended and it's hard to imagine anyone seriously insisting that they think this is how it should be played.
Specific rules beat general rules. Generally, hit modifiers don't affect overwatch - but in this specific case it says that this modifier does.
You may want to re-read my post because I specifically addressed this possible misunderstanding. I am actually quite confused as to why you would make this post if you read past the first sentence of my post. You may also want to re-read the Overwatch rules, because they don't say that "hit modifiers don't affect Overwatch" (I helpfully summarized the actual rule in my post).
ph34r wrote: Fingers crossed that scions don't get the nerf hammer, else all my "scions" will magically become "elysians"
I run 30 Scions with my Inquisitorial list and they need the nerfhammer. At least, the spammy plasma ones.
I've been running 25 and building more, I've been kind of leaning on them since Mechanicus got a low number of buffs. I hope they don't get messed up too much.
It looks like Heavy Weapon Squads now cost 5pts and LRBTs now cost 125pts. I am not sure if all infantry went up to 5pts, but lets hope they do so that it frees up other lists and balances out all these new buffs.
broxus wrote: It looks like Heavy Weapon Squads now cost 5pts and LRBTs now cost 125pts. I am not sure if all infantry went up to 5pts, but lets hope they do so that it frees up other lists and balances out all these new buffs.
broxus wrote: It looks like Heavy Weapon Squads now cost 5pts and LRBTs now cost 125pts. I am not sure if all infantry went up to 5pts, but lets hope they do so that it frees up other lists and balances out all these new buffs.
broxus wrote: It looks like Heavy Weapon Squads now cost 5pts and LRBTs now cost 125pts. I am not sure if all infantry went up to 5pts, but lets hope they do so that it frees up other lists and balances out all these new buffs.
Can your "reliable source" tell us the point values of conscripts & infantry squads? Also, ask said source if plastic guard are in the works.
Hmm...so yeah why are the XXX's there? Is this suggesting that HWT & LR's are the only units that see price adjustments in the new codex in that list? If so, that is extremely disappointing. Heavy flamers still 17 points? I was certain their cost would be cut in half, given how cheap plasma is. I also expected Chimeras to drop in price by at least 30% given how they have been nerfed into the ground (-1BS, lost rear fire ports, lost command vehicle rule, lost amphibious rule).
Drdaniel5 wrote: Some members in my group are adamant that the Mordian rule doesn't work RAW because the main rulebook states that overwatch only ever hits on a 6 and never benefits from or suffers modifiers.
Yeah, this seems to clearly be right. Overwatch doesn't say that you don't get modifiers -- this isn't a case of a specific rule over-riding a general one -- it just says that modifiers have no effect on whether or not the shot actually hits. To-hit modifiers still matter for things like determining whether your plasma overheats, and RAW this appears to be what the doctrine is good for. Of course, this is just obviously not what's intended and it's hard to imagine anyone seriously insisting that they think this is how it should be played.
Specific rules beat general rules. Generally, hit modifiers don't affect overwatch - but in this specific case it says that this modifier does.
You may want to re-read my post because I specifically addressed this possible misunderstanding. I am actually quite confused as to why you would make this post if you read past the first sentence of my post. You may also want to re-read the Overwatch rules, because they don't say that "hit modifiers don't affect Overwatch" (I helpfully summarized the actual rule in my post).
I did read your post. My point is simply that GW gets to decide what the rules are, and to change them if they want. If GW writes a rule saying you get a modifier to overwatch, then you get a modifier to overwatch. Normally it wouldn't work but this time it does, because they say so.
This is just how rules work. Codices are allowed to break brb rules if they want to.
Hmm...so yeah why are the XXX's there? Is this suggesting that HWT & LR's are the only units that see price adjustments in the new codex in that list? If so, that is extremely disappointing. Heavy flamers still 17 points? I was certain their cost would be cut in half, given how cheap plasma is. I also expected Chimeras to drop in price by at least 30% given how they have been nerfed into the ground (-1BS, lost rear fire ports, lost command vehicle rule, lost amphibious rule).
Notice no Plasma, infantry squads, or conscripts were in those lists. Those are all likely to be adjusted. However, plasma pistols are the same cost. Also, now that Scions are their own regiment their plasma may have diffrent costs. Not to mention they can't be part of your same formation if you want to remain regiment battleforged.
Chimeras are fine for their cost. Hellhounds with inferno cannons are stupidly undercosted especially when paired with the Catachan regimental rules. Basilisks should have also likely gone up slightly in costs. The only thing that really needed a price reduction in any AM list was the LRBT, but now with its new lumbering advance rules that is easily fixed. Even the stock infantryman in the AM needs a small price bump. Please compare them to a unit such as cultists in the new DG codex and you will see they are vastly superior and cost the same.
I hope overall we see more points increases or rules tweaks. Otherwise, if the AM get all of these strategems, regiment buffs, and other perks they will be almost impossible to defeat and be viewed as the cheese army. They are already hands down the strongest faction in 8th edition and they really don't need a buff. I literally have never lost a single game out of 20ish playing as AM. I do not even taking conscripts, or scion plasma spam or the other the broken combos.
It's difficult to assign points costs to really cheap models, because adding a single point can be a 25 or 33% increase. A unit would have to be significantly better to justify that. If a model is a point too expensive or cheap then that gets multiplied many times across an army list, leading to real imbalance.
The result is models with the same cost where some are quite a bit better than the others.
If I ruled the world I'd introduce half points. If 3ppm for a conscript is too little but 4 is too much, charge 3.5. Round up if there are odd numbers.
Hmm...so yeah why are the XXX's there? Is this suggesting that HWT & LR's are the only units that see price adjustments in the new codex in that list? If so, that is extremely disappointing. Heavy flamers still 17 points? I was certain their cost would be cut in half, given how cheap plasma is. I also expected Chimeras to drop in price by at least 30% given how they have been nerfed into the ground (-1BS, lost rear fire ports, lost command vehicle rule, lost amphibious rule).
Notice no Plasma, infantry squads, or conscripts were in those lists. Those are all likely to be adjusted. However, plasma pistols are the same cost. Also, now that Scions are their own regiment their plasma may have diffrent costs. Not to mention they can't be part of your same formation if you want to remain regiment battleforged.
Chimeras are fine for their cost. Hellhounds with inferno cannons are stupidly undercosted especially when paired with the Catachan regimental rules. Basilisks should have also likely gone up slightly in costs. The only thing that really needed a price reduction in any AM list was the LRBT, but now with its new lumbering advance rules that is easily fixed. Even the stock infantryman in the AM needs a small price bump. Please compare them to a unit such as cultists in the new DG codex and you will see they are vastly superior and cost the same.
I hope overall we see more points increases or rules tweaks. Otherwise, if the AM get all of these strategems, regiment buffs, and other perks they will be almost impossible to defeat and be viewed as the cheese army. They are already hands down the strongest faction in 8th edition and they really don't need a buff. I literally have never lost a single game out of 20ish playing as AM. I do not even taking conscripts, or scion plasma spam or the other the broken combos.
So IG players are no longer able to take stormtroopers (scions) as part of their normal regiment? For example: If I make a Steel Legion list, scions cannot be part of my normal brigade detachment as elites? I'll concede that the Catachan regiment benefits are over the top maybe even broken, but I don't think all the other regiments should be punished for it by increasing point costs of everything. I disagree regarding chimeras, they are way overpriced with all the nerfs they received this edition. What will you ever be transporting that will justify their point cost? Bullgryns maybe? At 89+ points a chimera you are better off just buying more infantry.
Hmm...so yeah why are the XXX's there? Is this suggesting that HWT & LR's are the only units that see price adjustments in the new codex in that list? If so, that is extremely disappointing. Heavy flamers still 17 points? I was certain their cost would be cut in half, given how cheap plasma is. I also expected Chimeras to drop in price by at least 30% given how they have been nerfed into the ground (-1BS, lost rear fire ports, lost command vehicle rule, lost amphibious rule).
Notice no Plasma, infantry squads, or conscripts were in those lists. Those are all likely to be adjusted. However, plasma pistols are the same cost. Also, now that Scions are their own regiment their plasma may have diffrent costs. Not to mention they can't be part of your same formation if you want to remain regiment battleforged.
Chimeras are fine for their cost. Hellhounds with inferno cannons are stupidly undercosted especially when paired with the Catachan regimental rules. Basilisks should have also likely gone up slightly in costs. The only thing that really needed a price reduction in any AM list was the LRBT, but now with its new lumbering advance rules that is easily fixed. Even the stock infantryman in the AM needs a small price bump. Please compare them to a unit such as cultists in the new DG codex and you will see they are vastly superior and cost the same.
I hope overall we see more points increases or rules tweaks. Otherwise, if the AM get all of these strategems, regiment buffs, and other perks they will be almost impossible to defeat and be viewed as the cheese army. They are already hands down the strongest faction in 8th edition and they really don't need a buff. I literally have never lost a single game out of 20ish playing as AM. I do not even taking conscripts, or scion plasma spam or the other the broken combos.
So IG players are no longer able to take stormtroopers (scions) as part of their normal regiment? For example: If I make a Steel Legion list, scions cannot be part of my normal brigade detachment as elites? I'll concede that the Catachan regiment benefits are over the top maybe even broken, but I don't think all the other regiments should be punished for it by increasing point costs of everything. I disagree regarding chimeras, they are way overpriced with all the nerfs they received this edition. What will you ever be transporting that will justify their point cost? Bullgryns maybe? At 89+ points a chimera you are better off just buying more infantry.
They've already confirmed Scions as having a separate regimental trait, so, if you want to keep the traits active you'll need to have separate detachments. Mixing detachments will still keep you as battleforged though.
Notice no Plasma, infantry squads, or conscripts were in those lists. Those are all likely to be adjusted.
That's an interesting point. Upping heavy weapon teams to 5 points is also a very weird nerf -- yeah, mortars are too good but why hit these by upping the cost of the team, and by so little? -- unless this change is about keeping the HWTs in line with Infantry. I would not be surprised now to see 4 point Conscripts and 5 point Infantry.
Kdash wrote: They've already confirmed Scions as having a separate regimental trait, so, if you want to keep the traits active you'll need to have separate detachments. Mixing detachments will still keep you as battleforged though.
Ahh gotcha. So I can still use them as (x) regiment scions, but I won't receive their unique tempestus benefits. Makes sense. Doesn't bother me. As long as I can deepstrike them with plasma, I'm good.
S4 on guardsmen isn't scary except for the fact it's in the same regiment as Straken who gives a +1 attack bubble and a priest also gives a +1 attack bubble and with an order guardsmen already in CC can swing a 2nd time. With those 2 buffs A pair of 10 man squads will swing on a 4+ 54 times at s4 plus whatever the sergeants are equipped with.
schadenfreude wrote: S4 on guardsmen isn't scary except for the fact it's in the same regiment as Straken who gives a +1 attack bubble and a priest also gives a +1 attack bubble and with an order guardsmen already in CC can swing a 2nd time. With those 2 buffs A pair of 10 man squads will swing on a 4+ 54 times at s4 plus whatever the sergeants are equipped with.
Keep in mind Catachan players with power fists are gonna be running around at S8+. That is pretty insane.
schadenfreude wrote: S4 on guardsmen isn't scary except for the fact it's in the same regiment as Straken who gives a +1 attack bubble and a priest also gives a +1 attack bubble and with an order guardsmen already in CC can swing a 2nd time. With those 2 buffs A pair of 10 man squads will swing on a 4+ 54 times at s4 plus whatever the sergeants are equipped with.
Keep in mind Catachan players with power fists are gonna be running around at S8+. That is pretty insane.
4 attacks per power fist sergeant. Mauls, axes, and even s4 swords are also viable.
It would not be hard to cram 6 squads into the bubble.
It's possible storm troopers will be elite units for all regiments except scions, where they will be troops. That would be following the model set by chaos with berserkers and rubrics.
It would be weird if gw didn't balance the points out more. I've never seen an army so points efficient before... It's crazy the amount of damage 1 Turux Prime can do... and I've seen people feild like 5 of them!
Notice no Plasma, infantry squads, or conscripts were in those lists. Those are all likely to be adjusted.
That's an interesting point. Upping heavy weapon teams to 5 points is also a very weird nerf -- yeah, mortars are too good but why hit these by upping the cost of the team, and by so little? -- unless this change is about keeping the HWTs in line with Infantry. I would not be surprised now to see 4 point Conscripts and 5 point Infantry.
Well actually the HWT is an infantry model but with 2 wounds. In the index both cost the same. Paying 1 points for a wound sounds ok.
I guess regimental tactics work only if all units in the detachment have the same tactic, like chapter tactics in the SM codex.
If that is true, then in a scion battalion detachement you can at max take 3 tempestus primes, 6 troop scions and 3 elite scions (and up to 12 taurox primes). But you couldn´t fill the heavy slots (or the fast attack) without loosing the scions regimental tactic. What ever it may be. A detachment of catachans won´t get their tactic if scions are included. So that could be another nerf to scions.
Don’t miss tomorrow’s preview, where we’ll be looking at the Valhallans, the highly anticipated changes to conscripts, and the return of a classic and much-loved rule…
The extra range on lasguns and plasma is nice, but this seems especially good on Demolishers and Punishers. 29" of effective range with Grinding Advance is unlikely to get you anywhere on turn 1; 35" is a lot better. Of course GW advertises its usefulness for 48" lascannons.
