A few folk on here will suspect I have a bias on this situation, and they'd be right, I firmly believe in self-determination and support the Catalan movement for independence from Spain(as I support the Kurds, and any other group who choose to peacefully self-organise and democratically demand political autonomy). But we're past the point where this can be about individual biases on semi-related political questions like Scottish independence, this is about a member of the European Union attempting to repress democracy with intimidation and violence.
Rajoy's government have used every possible method to try and prevent this referendum - arresting Catalan officials, having the Constitutional Court declare the basic idea of a referendum illegal, having other courts demand that websites be shut down and apps be removed from Google's service, suspending the finances of the Catalan parliament, even charging participants and organisers of entirely peaceful marches in support of Catalan independence with "sedition" - fething sedition for marching down a road with a sign - but they failed, the vote began this morning.
Many folk thought that would be it, that their bluff had been called, their posturing faced down, and now democracy would take its course one way or the other.
They were wrong, because the spirit of Franco is alive and well in Spain.
At some polling stations, people queuing to vote were "kettled" and then violently dispersed by the Guarda Civil(Spain's paramilitarised state police)
Others attempted to prevent their local polling stations from being raided by gathering at the entrances and sitting down to block them. This was the result:
This isn't about whether or not you support Catalonia seceeding from Spain, or indepenence movements in general - this is about whether or not you support fascism. I'd urge anyone in an EU member state to email your reps urging them to step in and condemn the Spanish state's behaviour, get on social media and add to the calls to the EU Commission and Parliament to do the same. A supposedly modern democracy in 2017 is using a paramilitary force to violently prevent a democratic vote - if we let this stand unremarked then words like democracy cease to have any real meaning.
These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.
16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:
25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment
These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.
'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.
Indeed. As evidenced yesterday in Madrid when crowds waving Spanish flags came to see off columns of Guarda Civil with chants along the lines of "go get em", the Francoist national anthem, and Nazi salutes. I think many people don't expect better from Spain, but I certainly expect better from the EU and its other constituent nations.
And a small note for anyone else who might be relying on the sterling journalism of the BBC for your news of these events:
They describe that as "clashes". As if they're talking about Black Bloc anarchists engaging in running battles with the police at a G8 protest.
EDIT: Hahaha, brilliant. Now seeing reports that the Catalan fire service has come out in full gear and are cordoning off GC forces attempting to prevent voting.
Shocking stuff, there are videos on the guardian pages with police throwing and dragging people around, hitting and kicking them, when all they're doing is standing or sitting around. What do they intend on escalating to if a crowd fights back?
No surprise to see the EU fall in behind the Spanish government.
It's risible nonsense for the Spanish government to suggest that passing a law can stop somebody's right to self-determination. Follow through on the logic of that and you'll see why.
The UN and international law also rejects it.
The tragedy here is that the Spanish government have just told Catalonia not to bother going down the democratic route...
The irony is that if they had granted a legal referendum, they probably would have won it...
Now even they allowed a legal one. They stoked up the anger furnaces to full power.
If they had allowed it yes. Good chance of winning.
Now. They instead have a Spanish government sending in riot police to beat up civilians, attacking polling stations and least one person has maybe lost a eye.
Spain should have learned how UK handled Scotland.
Yea that's what I thought as well, I don't agree with what the Catalonians are doing but the Castilians must realise this is adding fuel to the fire.
Sometimes you have to let the referendum happen and just make the arguments that we are better off united that splintering into little states.
Then again, the Castilians seem to have repressed the Basque revolt without giving any ground, so maybe they know better than us how to deal with separatists in their own country!
Spain should have learned how UK handled Scotland.
Yea that's what I thought as well, I don't agree with what the Catalonians are doing but the Castilians must realise this is adding fuel to the fire.
Sometimes you have to let the referendum happen and just make the arguments that we are better off united that splintering into little states.
Then again, the Castilians seem to have repressed the Basque revolt without giving any ground, so maybe they know better than us how to deal with separatists in their own country!
Yeah. Now the image of Spain is Jack booted riot police, wounded kids and old people, smashed in polling stations and black clad ranks of police.
Spain should have learned how UK handled Scotland.
Yea that's what I thought as well, I don't agree with what the Catalonians are doing but the Castilians must realise this is adding fuel to the fire.
Sometimes you have to let the referendum happen and just make the arguments that we are better off united that splintering into little states.
Then again, the Castilians seem to have repressed the Basque revolt without giving any ground, so maybe they know better than us how to deal with separatists in their own country!
Yeah. Now the image of Spain is Jack booted riot police, wounded kids and old people, smashed in polling stations and black clad ranks of police.
That has been an image since Franco. Spain hasnt really changed that much.
Portugal and Greece still have issues with their past.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I love how our world class British media are portraying this as 'clashes' when it's clear that only one side is doing the fighting.
So glad I don't pay the TV licence anymore. BBC news is an utter disgrace.
The problem Spain has is that if it went ahead (even if the vote was to stay) is that it would be quickly followed by at least two other regions. I don't think they handled it well, but I also can see why they fear the political instability and the breakdown of Spain as a functioning country if this went ahead.
Steve steveson wrote: The problem Spain has is that if it went ahead (even if the vote was to stay) is that it would be quickly followed by at least two other regions. I don't think they handled it well, but I also can see why they fear the political instability and the breakdown of Spain as a functioning country if this went ahead.
I look forward to the EU taking special measures against Spain. After all, they were quick to act against Hungary and Poland.
Jesus Christ. Some of this footage is revolting. Wherever you sit on Catalonian independence, this is full on violent repression by the state. I'm sitting here watching videos of police with truncheons laying into civilians with their hands up. If this had happened here over the Scottish referendum, I'd have been in the street. I mean seriously, this is a disgusting affront against democracy, against peaceful governance, and every level of human rights and dignity. The Spanish Government very clearly deserves to be removed and replaced after this.
Spain should have learned how UK handled Scotland.
Not to be OT, but how they "handled" Scotland was to allow for voting, but for the government and the media to spread disinformation. Besides the false figures the BBC was broadcasting fake and heavily edited news during the run up to the vote.
Just goes to show how scared countries are of secession. Though its hardly like we're past military responses.
Though yeah, we're right to criticise the BBC. People look to them as being one of the better news sources, though that's hardly the case. They downplay and don't report on many things, and their agenda's fairly clear most of the time. Not as bad as many other outlets (RT), but the outright lies that they broadcast at times make me avoid them as a source as I can't trust what they're saying.
Spain should have learned how UK handled Scotland.
Not to be OT, but how they "handled" Scotland was to allow for voting, but for the government and the media to spread disinformation. Besides the false figures the BBC was broadcasting fake and heavily edited news during the run up to the vote.
Just goes to show how scared countries are of secession. Though its hardly like we're past military responses.
Disinformation went two ways, the SNP were hardly above muckracking and putting out distorted figures. Regardless of which, the fact remains that a free vote was held, and the result would have been adhered to. For a country to engage in active violent repression of their population for trying to express the right to self determination is abhorrent on every level.
If the EU does not issue admonitions of the strongest type to the Spanish Government, it will speak volumes about their actual commitments to their founding principles.
Spain should have allowed the referendum. It is not like the Catalans who want independence were an overwhelming majority. The population is split pretty evenly afaik. With some good arguments and lots of propaganda, they could have probably swung it in their favour, silencing the independence movement for a good while.
But behaviour like this only makes the situation worse for Spain. It turns people who would otherwise have supported Spain away and towards the independence movement. Repression may help for a short while, it may be able to prevent this referendum, but in the long term it massively increases sympathy and support for Catalan independence. This will come back to bite them later.
Worst thing about this is that if they close off peaceful, democratic ways of gaining independence, then the only possible outcome is going to be civil war.
Lesser non PM level has spoken too, but National level leadership none the less.
Spoiler:
Nicola Sturgeon has said she is "increasingly concerned" about images from Catalonia as Spanish police try to halt an independence referendum.
Police have seized ballot papers at polling stations and there are reports of rubber bullets fired in Barcelona.
In a tweet the first minister said all should condemn the scenes "regardless of views on independence".
She urged Spain's government to allow the poll, which was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.
And she called on the Spanish authorities to "change course before someone is seriously hurt".
Clashes as voters defy independence vote ban
Why these are uncharted waters for Spain
Spain's move to halt Catalan vote
Thousands of Catalan independence supporters have occupied schools and other buildings designated as polling stations in order to keep them open.
In Girona, riot police smashed their way into a polling station where Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont was due to vote.
However, Mr Puigdemont was still able to cast his ballot at another polling station.
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1/2 Increasingly concerned by images from #Catalonia. Regardless of views on independence, we should all condemn the scenes being witnessed
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2/2 and call on Spain to change course before someone is seriously hurt. Let people vote peacefully.
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Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson also commented on events in Catalonia, urging dialogue to avoid violence.
She said: "Everyone will be shocked by the disturbing scenes coming from Catalonia. It is clear that this is a fast-moving situation, but we would urge the authorities to exercise restraint. Nobody wants to see people hurt.
"If the situation in Catalonia is to be resolved, the answer will come through dialogue and diplomacy, and not through violence."
I can understand the central government not wanting this to go through and take measures against it. But I don't understand the zeal of the police, the eagerness to take every opportunity to beat up on old ladies. Who are these people? Are they grown in vats, programmed from youth to be brainless robots?
I can understand the central government not wanting this to go through and take measures against it. But I don't understand the zeal of the police, the eagerness to take every opportunity to beat up on old ladies. Who are these people? Are they grown in vats, programmed from youth to be brainless robots?
it
Also even if they voted and all, it aint legal refarendom. it had no Legal value in Spanish law and they could of maybe trhown some tax powers or somthing, had some BS talks or such, kinda made them think they got somthing when they got all of the sum total of nil to low.
Beat them with brains not batons.,
But spain just loves smashing in there own citizens skulls every now and again to sate the anger of there seeming profeshinal thug department.
I can understand the central government not wanting this to go through and take measures against it. But I don't understand the zeal of the police, the eagerness to take every opportunity to beat up on old ladies. Who are these people? Are they grown in vats, programmed from youth to be brainless robots?
Aren't the Police who are being tasked with shutting down the referendum drawn from the national/Federal police forces (Guarda Civil?)? The local Police forces in Catelonia are not involved as I understand it. If this was America, it'd be like the FBI and other Feds being sent in to shut down an illegal Vote being carried out by one of the States and the local Police forces being ordered to stand down. If that is indeed the case, and these Police officers originate from outside Catelonia, then their personal loyalties and sympathies are probably with the wider nation of Spain, and not Catelonia. Like the rest of the Spanish population outside Catelonia, they too don't want Catelonian independence. Its personal bias.
This whole thing is despicable. I didn't want Scotland to break away from the UK and become independent, but I fully respected their democratic right to hold a referendum and follow through with Independence. Spain should do the same.
Independent American journalist and Youtuber Tim Pool is on the ground covering the events and interviewing people. Check out his channel, he's great for this sort of thing (he covered UC Berkely, Charlottesville, G20, etc).
While I agree that the central government is going eerily fascist, you can't just declare referenda because you want to. It's not like the Catalan independence side is respecting democratic principles either. They didn't get a 2/3rd majority in the Catalan parliament that the referendum requires according to the Catalan (note Catalan, not Spanish) constitution. You don't get to ignore your own constitution just because it's inconvenient.
Now you'll believe me when I say that Spanish Police are basically thugs with the right to shoot people with rubber-balls and are drawn from the low end of the society!
I'm from Galicia, and personally I believe in a Federal state for Spain, because the Constitution we have now is a travesty. The goverment uses it as a thrown weapon. They ignore it all the time, and use only the parts they want to use when it works in their benefit. The Catalonian oligarqui isn't better.
What foreigners need to undersand, is that this is not a cry for independence for a group of people. This is a fight of the catalonian political oligarchi vs the Spanish political oligarchi.
The strong Feudal Lord agains't the weak King.
In the meantime, Rajoy has assure another year as a president because as I said, all of this "Independence" movement is just a faux, a smoke wall to cover the interest of the Catalonian and Spanish oligarchies, that have always been partners in crime about all of this. They have broke Spanish Society in two fronts to their economical and political interest, and thats repugnant in so many levels...
It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: While I agree that the central government is going eerily fascist, you can't just declare referenda because you want to. It's not like the Catalan independence side is respecting democratic principles either. They didn't get a 2/3rd majority in the Catalan parliament that the referendum requires according to the Catalan (note Catalan, not Spanish) constitution. You don't get to ignore your own constitution just because it's inconvenient.
You can argue about what is legal until the cows come home, but the bottom line is this:
A peaceful, democratic demonstration was met with a hail of plastic bullets and police batons.
And this occured not in a banana republic, but a first world democracy in Western Europe.
djones520 wrote: I've read nearly 400 Catalonians injured so far in this affair.
Yeah... this is going to help bring the people back into the state, for sure.
Thats gonna help relations alot,.
even moderates are going to more likely to side with secessionists,
Yeah, the Spanish government has doubled down on stupidity. If they had let the vote go ahead, and did nothing to stop it, they could have ignored the result on the basis it was unconstitutional. And the international community, knowing full well that there was a proper democratic system in place for this sort of thing (2/3rds vote in parliament or something) probably would have backed Spain.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: While I agree that the central government is going eerily fascist, you can't just declare referenda because you want to. It's not like the Catalan independence side is respecting democratic principles either. They didn't get a 2/3rd majority in the Catalan parliament that the referendum requires according to the Catalan (note Catalan, not Spanish) constitution. You don't get to ignore your own constitution just because it's inconvenient.
You can argue about what is legal until the cows come home, but the bottom line is this:
A peaceful, democratic demonstration was met with a hail of plastic bullets and police batons.
And this occured not in a banana republic, but a first world democracy in Western Europe.
djones520 wrote: I've read nearly 400 Catalonians injured so far in this affair.
Yeah... this is going to help bring the people back into the state, for sure.
Thats gonna help relations alot,.
even moderates are going to more likely to side with secessionists,
Yeah, the Spanish government has doubled down on stupidity. If they had let the vote go ahead, and did nothing to stop it, they could have ignored the result on the basis it was unconstitutional. And the international community, knowing full well that there was a proper democratic system in place for this sort of thing (2/3rds vote in parliament or something) probably would have backed Spain.
Yeah. Spain if it played the cards right could of dealt with it and fobbed it, fudged it. And got off away with it. No one would of noticed or care.
As of now there heavy handed sledge hammer approach now means however illegal the ballot. There coming out bad guys on a big scale.
When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
The key problem with your post is that none of them were 'fighting'. They were standing there with their arms raised in positions of peace. I've seen multiple bits of footage with people literally standing there peacefully and getting their heads cracked in.
When you're getting beaten and wounded for standing there? That makes you 'right'. By sheer virtue of the fact that the other guy is very much indisputably 'wrong'.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
"Fighting" and being in the vicinity of guys beating on civilians are different things. This is some serious victim blaming stuff dude, its like you're ignoring the situation and going straight to "oh if the police are attacking them then they must have done something".
lord_blackfang wrote: It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
Maybe thats what the Catalan leaders intended? Call an illegal referendum to freak out the National government and provoke them into a disproportionate reaction?
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.
But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.
lord_blackfang wrote: It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
Maybe thats what the Catalan leaders intended? Call an illegal referendum to freak out the National government and provoke them into a disproportionate reaction?
"She were asking for it yer honour, else she wouldn't have been wearin' that skimpy dress."
Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today. None. Holding a vote without legal sanction isn't even a partial excuse for mauling peaceful citizens with bats, MACEing them, stamping on them, throwing them down stairs, intentionally breaking their fingers, or shooting them with rubber bullets, and those are just the things I've personally seen evidence of them doing today, the scale and ferocity of the violence went far beyond that.
If this were happening in Russia, or China, or an African nation, people wouldn't even be trying to think of excuses or justifications nevermind actually posting them in public.
Hey I didn't say (nor think) it was justified, I was simply suggesting that the Catalan Government knew this was the reaction they'd get. Provocation as in you know that a disproportionate reaction is likely to follow. Not provocation in the legal sense.
So don't go jumping down my throat please. I agree with you 100%, and am in no way defending the actions of the Guarda Civil. See my post on page 1 where I called their actions "despicable".
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Do you want fascism? Because that is how you get fascism.
In all seriousness, whilst I understand the Spanish governments want to stop a referendum, this kind of over the top reaction is the mark of a dangerous government, and agreeing with their actions justifies it and leads them toward fascism. It should be challenged at all terns.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.
But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.
«fascim»
So what, let's disband every Police in the world, after all, they are just violent pigs !
Let disband our armies, too ! We will defend ourselves by the power of the flowers and love !
...
I can't believe there are people currently disagreeing with policemen for enforcing law and the Spanish state for fighting secessionism.
The secessionists are fighting the State and the Law, and as the State serve the people, those secessionists are fighting against the people
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
No.
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
I don't think so.
Here, it is the same issue. People against peole, against law and order, and policemen, at their own risks, restoring order.
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
Standing near a polling booth is not a crime. Raising your hands in the air is not a crime. Gathering with groups of other likeminded people is not a crime. Even by
your own twisted justification, they do not deserve to have their heads kicked in. They are not criminals by any law. Even if we say that holding the referendum is illegal, being positioned nearby does not make you an accessory anymore than it does if someone gets mugged across the road from you.
Furthermore, under EU law, they actually do very explicitly have human rights. It is the police who are technically the criminals, as they are illegally assaulting bystanders. Unjustified battery is very much illegal in Spain, whether you're a police officer or not. So I assume you'll be pressing in your next post for these officers who are very directly breaking the law to have the crap kicked out of them?
Yeah the police were seizing the ballots for safe keeping so the referendum can run smoothly.
Proud to say that many of my local politicians have been calling for a recognition of this referendum and have written to the Spanish government calling for an end to these brutalities. Was also pretty cool to se my cites walls lit up red and yellow in support of Catalan!
You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
YOU have to understand that this statement is a LIE. There is video footage of Riot Cops dragging voters out of a polling station including women and elderly people and literally throwing them down a crowded flight of stairs on top of other voters and even other Cops further down the stairs.
Perfect example here if you click through. Protestors with raised hands. No violence being offered towards police. The protestors are just standing there. Police then start laying into them with weapons. That's a very clear case of assault by a police officer. Officers even, as there's a line of policeman literally beating the crap out of people who have done nothing illegal.
Which is, of course, illegal. Article 5 of European Law provides for liberty and security of person. Freedom in other words, to not have your head bludgeoned to a red paste because you happen to be located within a hundred square metres of a box that the Spanish Prime Minister dislikes.
The entire country of France called. They said GTFU. The entire reason your worthless ass is able to post your idiotic opinions on the Internet is due to people revolting against this kind of thing.
That kick at the start is brutal, if you do that to someone in the street you get arrested for assault or attempted murder. Being a police officer doesn't give you the righto do whatever the hell you want. The government have sown the seeds of independence with these actions, these peoples children and grand children will grow up hearing stories of these actions.
I haven't particularly read into the ins and outs of why this referendum is 'illegal', but I get the impression the Spanish government was prepared to let it go ahead knowing public support would back a unified Spain and therefore would be over before it got started. When they realised a lot more Catalonians would vote for independence they panicked badly. What a fudge up, dashing the hopes of the people, putting the government to shame and destroying confidence in Spanish police. If anything this will strengthen an independence movement and will certainly weaken if not break Spain's government. Heads will roll no doubt.
I'm struggling to understand how the central government thought this was a good idea. Just let the damn referendum take place and then deal with it; there wouldn't be too much support for a separatist movement that can't even follow its own constitution. Instead they went pants-on-head and went for the police brutality option. Even disregarding the moral level, which Spain has clearly done, how is this a good plan?
It's so mind-bogglingly stupid that the only one that's disagreed with it being stupid in this thread is Dakka's resident fascist, for obvious reasons. Everyone else is appalled, no matter the political leanings. It's so monumentally dumb that I don't understand it at all.
Sentinel1 wrote: I haven't particularly read into the ins and outs of why this referendum is 'illegal', but I get the impression the Spanish government was prepared to let it go ahead knowing public support would back a unified Spain and therefore would be over before it got started. When they realised a lot more Catalonians would vote for independence they panicked badly. What a fudge up, dashing the hopes of the people, putting the government to shame and destroying confidence in Spanish police. If anything this will strengthen an independence movement and will certainly weaken if not break Spain's government. Heads will roll no doubt.
hopefully a fair bit of them will be in riot helmets.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.
But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.
«fascim»
So what, let's disband every Police in the world, after all, they are just violent pigs !
Let disband our armies, too ! We will defend ourselves by the power of the flowers and love !
...
I can't believe there are people currently disagreeing with policemen for enforcing law and the Spanish state for fighting secessionism.
The secessionists are fighting the State and the Law, and as the State serve the people, those secessionists are fighting against the people
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
No.
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
I don't think so.
Here, it is the same issue. People against peole, against law and order, and policemen, at their own risks, restoring order.
Your are a complete ignorant about all of this issue. Please, refrain from posting more of this ignorant gak.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Waitwaitwait....is that policemen lighting Molotov cocktails?!?!?!
That's from the Battle of Kiev, back in 2014, Ukrainian revolt and all that.
Not to say that this wouldn't happen here, but there aren't nearly as many AKs running around. Then again, we have a guy who works for Kim Rocket Man, so maybe we could arrange something.
This whole thing is fethed up, they didn't come to our polling station, but this wont end nicely. Maybe tomorrow will be calm, maybe there'll be hits, but the day after there's a general strike all over Catalonia, and quite the chance of UDI in the next 48h (which is what was established would follow a Yes win).
I'm not really sure what to say, I'm just waiting for the results and bracing for what's coming.
And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.
Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.
Galas wrote: And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.
Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.
Thank you Galas for providing me with a local view into this situation. Too often I miss that perspective being an English speaker who mainly frequents English speaking forums. Your avatar seems more fitting today than possibly ever before I'm guessing, keep being a pig rather than a fascist.
As an outsider looking in I am bewildered and astounded by the reaction of Madrid and the response from other nations which I would expect to be more universally damning doesn't seem to be as such.
Galas wrote: And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.
Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.
Thank you Galas for providing me with a local view into this situation. Too often I miss that perspective being an English speaker who mainly frequents English speaking forums. Your avatar seems more fitting today than possibly ever before I'm guessing, keep being a pig rather than a fascist.
As an outsider looking in I am bewildered and astounded by the reaction of Madrid and the response from other nations which I would expect to be more universally damning doesn't seem to be as such.
Yeah. This makes me pretty angry because the ones that bleed are the people that has 0 fault about all of this, but the political parties that are the creators of all this absurdity will only gain both political and economical benefits! And I say this being anti-independentist but in favour of a catalan referendum.
As others posters have said, they could easily just ignore the results of this referendum, or wait until people voted to just requise the urns and destroy all the votes. But no. They needed to enter the coleges and start hurting and hitting people.
You know the fun thing about all of this? They where shooting rubber balls. Rubbers balls are illegal in catalonia since 2012 after in the 15-M protest, a woman LOST an eye because one of those proyectiles. But the police didn't care about that, they used ILLEGAL equipement to REPRESS PEACEFULLY gattered people.
Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.
Pretty disgusting. This is why I'm an anti-statist. The State will never, ever willingly concede any power it gains back to its subjects. Honestly, this could happen anywhere.
You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!
You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!
I am sure he is saddened and dismayed that the Catalina Wine Mixer has come to this. Sad!
Ridiculous. The answer from the Spanish government would have been to veto the referendum in its own parliament on the grounds that it had not got the 2/3 majority required to pass. On top the the lawcourts.
Saying you cant have a referendum by force is something else.
Stopoping multiple repeat referendums is doable, and has a logic to it. They cant be allowed to be repeat until successful. However to deny one is a bad move, instead you make it fail in the ballot not because of a stick, then consider the matter closed. It is what the UK is doing and Canada is doing and it can work..
The Catalonian authorities will declare UDI and Spain will fall apart. The only good news is that Catalonia will be straight out the EU, the EU which is backing Spain will deny any transition period, and Catalans will want back in when the trade and funding dries up. The EU will say that is possible only via Madrid. I see this reversing quickly, Brexit is survivable, this is not. Spain now needs to back down and try and cool down, and deal with this through legislature only. Catalonia is relatively rich, but its still a club Med economy and it won't like being outside the EU one bit. Catharsis is key here. the EU is already united via the counter to Brexit, they need to extend this.
On aside this mess means is that the UK is inadvertently profiting. Division in Spain takes pressure off Gibraltar, Th same Spanish ministers bullying Catalonia was after the rock two days ago, and trouble with EU unity of any sort helps the UK post Brexit. The only winners in this sorry mess, and it had 0% to do with us and did need either of our glorious leaders May or Corbyn to do anything 'clever'.
Galas wrote: And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.
Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.
Yeah, and if elections were called now the PP would gain seats. It has been a long standing truth that hitting Catalonia wins you votes elsewhere while not hurting you in any meaningful way.
Not that our guys aren't bad, lots of years of making deals with the governing party in Madrid, offering our votes in parliament in exchange for concessions (and quite possibly legal immunity, as their corruption enterprises were only "discovered" once the whole independence thing started booming).
'Tis a sad state of affairs, but I don't really care anymore. Tomorrow they will try to (maybe succeed at) imprisoning our politicians. So what. This won't stop just by putting four (or 400, or a 4000) guys in jail. They probably want somehting like the bad days of the basque conflict, when policemen were murdered on the streets but they could use that as a boogeyman to distract everyone.
Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.
Catalonia is a culturally distinct region with a very long history, the goal of Catalan independence has real merit.
Politicians are politicians but writing of the entire endeavour as little more than a political stunt seems to be pretty disingenuous to me.
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.
@JulianAssange: Map of Catalonian polling stations open vs successfully closed by Spanish state police. Green = open. Red = closed.
Oops. That means there will be enough successful vote for the result to flag as valid.
This is such an incompetent feth up I have to briefly wonder if the policing was false flagged somehow. Were the police bussed in from outside? I can see smacking a few heads to prevent a ballot is a good way for quietly pro-Catalan independence policemen to get what they want.
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.
Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.
Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.
Catalonia is a culturally distinct region with a very long history, the goal of Catalan independence has real merit.
Politicians are politicians but writing of the entire endeavour as little more than a political stunt seems to be pretty disingenuous to me.
All regions of Spain are culturally distinct regions with a very long history. Asturias, Navarra and Galicia too. Spanish is very diverse nation and thats where his beauty resides. The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.
Of course theres people that truly believes in Catalonian self-determination. Theres people like that too in Galicia, or even in Andalucía and Granada. But nations aren't build based in a nationalistic ideology, they are a natural developtment of history. Catalonian independence is based in a nationalistic xenophobia.
I'm from Galicia. I love his lenguage, his traditions, and history, but I know that I'm Spanish too, as Spanish as someone form Extremadura or Baleares. The Galician independence movement is built in the idea of the "Spanic" opresor, in the romantic pass of the Celt bard. Mythology used to built a xenophobic nationalistic movement, the same has been done in Catalonia.
And after saying that, I'll repeat my contempt from how the central goverment and the police has act in Catalonia, and even if I'm anti independentist I believe that the referendum should have been made.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second...
By that logic the UK would still be in the EU.
We had a referendum just after we joined as confirmation. the next was 40 years later. That is different it the Catalan independence movement lost they could have another attempt in 2050 or thereabouts, if they lost and retried sooner Spain has to put foot down and say no, on th grounds that the referendum has already occurred. The UK has to have the balls to do this also, and Canada has already done this.
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.
Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.
(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...
And after saying that, I'll repeat my contempt from how the central goverment and the police has act in Catalonia, and even if I'm anti independentist I believe that the referendum should have been made.
I feel your pain. Someone in Madrid panicked and as a result Spain itself is in danger. If the referendum vote tally is pro independence it will not be almost impossible to stop. A savvy campaign can make independence all but inevitable. Ghandi tactics are the key. No violence or threats of violence, but block the roads in and out and rally the people. Massive civic disobedience.
This will resonate globally. That is perhaps Spain's saving grace. Spain was anti-scottish independence to the point of warning the SNP government that they would veto scottish entry into the EU because of how Catalonia would react. There will be a lot of interest to stop a domino effect, in Europe and abroad. Many major global governments including most the EU and the US won't want this. Italy and Belgium wont for certain as both have successionist regions, and the UK will worry about the Welsh or Scottish kicking off, though Welsh indyref will flat fail and Scotland can be headed off due to the 2014 ballot. Of the big players Russia will like it, and that has already been recognised. Russia might recognise Catalonia if it secedes, but even that is unlikely as it will have knock on effects on Russia's relationships with the Baltic states.
Then there is the EU doing what Spain wanted to do to Scotland, denying membership so the fledgeling state is doomed to fail and needs to make arrangements. The trouble here is that Germany and Benelux want to downsize the EU anyway and rid themselves of club med countries, not that they admit that too openly. This could be the opening of the door for this to happen.
Orlanth wrote: The UK has to have the balls to do this also,
Well if they want to guarantee that Scotland will be independent by the middle of the century that's a good way to go about it
Referendums need to be one-offs or some movements will just repeat them until successful. This is understood pretty much as a global truth. The SNP are trying find excuses to do exactly that and have been doing so since before Brexit.
Also repeated attempts at a referendum actually dont enthuse the populace beyond the hardline. In this instance most Scots don't want repeat referenda either as it's a permanent distraction, it's undemocratic and takes focus away from getting other things done.
Even in spite of Brexit support just isn't there. Sturgeon knows this and hasn't tried to pull this one as a result (she is no fool).
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.
Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.
(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...
Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.
How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?
We can't. They will point to Spain and tells us to stop with the double standards.
With each passing year, it dawns on me that Western politicians are not up to the job anymore.
Anybody with half a brain cell would have let this referendum run its course, and then strung it out for months or years with a compromise or a court room battle.
The Spanish PM panics, and this happens. David Cameron panics, calls an ill-timed referendum, and Britain leaves the UK.
Holding your nerve used to be a political art form. JFK and Cuba being a prime example, but like I say, Western politicians just aren't up to it any more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
The sad thing is that there was a textbook example for Madrid to follow: the Scotland example.
I'm no expert on this Frazz, but from what I've read, the Spanish government, had they granted a proper referendum to the Catalans, probably would have won it, and the issue would be buried for at least 50 years.
Instead, they created martyrs and boosted the opposition
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollow wrote: Those wanting independence for Catalonia could not be happier right now. The Spanish state have fallen right into their trap by over-reacting.
I doubt if it was intentional, but it certainly worked out well for them.
Orlanth wrote: The UK has to have the balls to do this also,
Well if they want to guarantee that Scotland will be independent by the middle of the century that's a good way to go about it
Referendums need to be one-offs or some movements will just repeat them until successful. This is understood pretty much as a global truth. The SNP are trying find excuses to do exactly that and have been doing so since before Brexit.
Also repeated attempts at a referendum actually dont enthuse the populace beyond the hardline. In this instance most Scots don't want repeat referenda either as it's a permanent distraction, it's undemocratic and takes focus away from getting other things done.
Even in spite of Brexit support just isn't there. Sturgeon knows this and hasn't tried to pull this one as a result (she is no fool).
Frazzled wrote: I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?
Yes that's not going to happen.
You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.
Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.
That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.
Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.
(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...
The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.
That's sounding like the argument "there was no Scottish independence movement till Braveheart came out". It may not be a direct continuation of a previous group, but I'd imagine the region has been wanting to get the hell out of the rest of the country for a good while now. ...I mean, if it all started in 2007 then why was my Father talking about it when I was a child?
The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.
That's sounding like the argument "there was no Scottish independence movement till Braveheart came out". It may not be a direct continuation of a previous group, but I'd imagine the region has been wanting to get the hell out of the rest of the country for a good while now. ...I mean, if it all started in 2007 then why was my Father talking about it when I was a child?
Probably because he was talking about the independent movement of Lluis Companys during the Second Republic. Literally, during the Second Republic the president of Catalonia declared independence. They where brutally represed by the second Republic
This was a famous phrase of Juan Negrín, president of the Spanish II Republic during the Civil War, when with the inestability and how weak the republic was, they tried again to declare Catalonia as independent:
I am not making the war against Franco so that we can sprout in Barcelona a stupid and small-town separatism. No way. I am making the war for Spain and for Spain. For his greatness and for his greatness. Those who suppose otherwise are seriously wrong. There is only one nation: Spain! You can not consent to this deaf and persistent separatist campaign, and it has to be cut off. No one is as interested in me as in the peculiarities of his land; I love all those who refer to the Canaries, and I do not despise them, but I exalt those of other regions, but above all these peculiarities, Spain. Anyone who opposes the policy of national unity must be dismissed from his post with complete force. Before consenting to nationalist campaigns that would lead us to dismemberment, which I would in no way concede, I would give way to Franco with no other condition than to get rid of Germans and Italians. In point of the integrity of Spain I am irreducible and I will defend it from the outside and from the inside. My position is absolute and does not allow for a decrease
The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement. Even as little ago as in 2012-13 Independentists in Catalonia where a minority, and you know why? Because during Franquism Catalonia was literally the community that received more support and money, because they have had always the strongest bourgeoisie of all of Spain alongside the Vasque Country.
But I need to repeat myself and say that I believe in their right to self-determination.
The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement.
Something tells me that it's about to grow legs in other areas when you show the police brutalizing people trying to vote on TV
The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement.
Something tells me that it's about to grow legs in other areas when you show the police brutalizing people trying to vote on TV
Hm, maybe you are right but I don't know what to say. We have had much bigger protests and much bigger represion from the police before ,during the 15-M in 2011. And it all ended in nothing . We spaniards are very fast to forgot all of this. Is very sad but is very true.
If accurate the Spanish voters seem to be smarter than the Spanish government. 42.3% turnout, which is a piss poor representation. This is poinient as a 90% backing independence is claimed. Thus Spain can claim that pro-unity voters boycotted the ballot. This deligitimises it far better than police batons do.
Orlanth wrote:This is such an incompetent feth up I have to briefly wonder if the policing was false flagged somehow. Were the police bussed in from outside? I can see smacking a few heads to prevent a ballot is a good way for quietly pro-Catalan independence policemen to get what they want.
Financial Times wrote:The independence drive was, in effect, aided by the 17,000-strong Catalan police force, which appeared unwilling to seize ballot boxes or stop the voting, drawing a stinging criticism from the national government.
Financial Times wrote:As polls closed at 8pm, Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, addressed the nation to say that the rule of law had prevailed and there had been “no self-determination referendum” in Catalonia.
Complete clusterfeth in other words. An opposition that tries legitimizing a shoddy referendum by shouting that they're oppressed, and a government that proves them right when they didn't even have to.
You don't send the police against the people. Even if they are voting in an unauthorized referendum. Is this some back water dictatorship or a Democratic society?
Galas wrote: They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.
I mean, this gak was all done to pull under the rug the mess of this years' presupuestos, which could well have costed Rajoy's head. This wasn't done just on a whim.
Galas wrote: They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.
I mean, this gak was all done to pull under the rug the mess of this years' presupuestos, which could well have costed Rajoy's head. This wasn't done just on a whim.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. This is a MASSIVE smoke wall that benefits both the central spanish goverment and the catalan goverment. At the cost of the social unity of spain.
Orlanth wrote: Ridiculous. The answer from the Spanish government would have been to veto the referendum in its own parliament on the grounds that it had not got the 2/3 majority required to pass. On top the the lawcourts.
Saying you cant have a referendum by force is something else.
Stopoping multiple repeat referendums is doable, and has a logic to it. They cant be allowed to be repeat until successful. However to deny one is a bad move, instead you make it fail in the ballot not because of a stick, then consider the matter closed. It is what the UK is doing and Canada is doing and it can work..
The Catalonian authorities will declare UDI and Spain will fall apart. The only good news is that Catalonia will be straight out the EU, the EU which is backing Spain will deny any transition period, and Catalans will want back in when the trade and funding dries up. The EU will say that is possible only via Madrid. I see this reversing quickly, Brexit is survivable, this is not. Spain now needs to back down and try and cool down, and deal with this through legislature only. Catalonia is relatively rich, but its still a club Med economy and it won't like being outside the EU one bit. Catharsis is key here. the EU is already united via the counter to Brexit, they need to extend this.
On aside this mess means is that the UK is inadvertently profiting. Division in Spain takes pressure off Gibraltar, Th same Spanish ministers bullying Catalonia was after the rock two days ago, and trouble with EU unity of any sort helps the UK post Brexit. The only winners in this sorry mess, and it had 0% to do with us and did need either of our glorious leaders May or Corbyn to do anything 'clever'.
Fun thing? They actually need spain because they have a negative commercial balance with the exterior by quite a margin...
Trust me, unless there's a trade agreement ASAP, things will turn ugly for both sides.
You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!
I am sure he is saddened and dismayed that the Catalina Wine Mixer has come to this. Sad!
Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... I was empathetic towards the Spanish government over this ordeal as this has to be aggravating as all hell...
But, man... sending those thugs to the polling place like that has really killed it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm struggling to understand how the central government thought this was a good idea. Just let the damn referendum take place and then deal with it; there wouldn't be too much support for a separatist movement that can't even follow its own constitution. Instead they went pants-on-head and went for the police brutality option. Even disregarding the moral level, which Spain has clearly done, how is this a good plan?
That was a marvelous piece of political engineering by the Catalan govt. They kept tugging at the central govt, and so far the response had been proportionate, but apparently someone in the Moncloa was worried about the media effect of people happily voting in an unauthorised vote and they got something much much worse instead.
It's worth noting that it was a judge, not the government who declared the referendum law null, but it is still on the government to ensure that police action to enforce the judge order is proportionate.
The vote was a joke on several levels anyway. With a booth falling to the ground on live TV and revealing there were votes stuffed in there even before the station was open. Journalists being able to vote multiple times in different voting stations, etc., but the only thing that will stay etched in people's minds is the jackbooted police batoning old people with their hands raised.
I just hope this puts a lid on one of the most coward governments ever, and doesn't reward the secessionist movement. But of course this whole thing will just reinforce both extremes, as it's often the case.
Yodhrin wrote: Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today.
Not to mention it's rather ironic to say "constitution forbids independence". How many indepencies were legal? Legal wise Finland would still be part of Russia. We illegally simply declared we are independent. Doubt England's law provided much stipulation for America to get independent legally either...For that matter did Spain be formed by legal independence either?
What right gives Spain eternal right for area to current area that didn't protect whatever country Spain was part of before
Yodhrin wrote: Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today.
Not to mention it's rather ironic to say "constitution forbids independence". How many indepencies were legal? Legal wise Finland would still be part of Russia. We illegally simply declared we are independent. Doubt England's law provided much stipulation for America to get independent legally either...For that matter did Spain be formed by legal independence either?
This is not the XVIII century anymore.
Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.
Junts pel Si (itself a coalition of several mainstream independentist parties) got 39,59% of the vote (but thanks to the electoral system they got 46% of MPs)
CUP (an anti-establishment, quasi-anarchist party) got 8,21%
It doesn't add up.
On the last polls (weeks before yesterday vote), support for independence was hovering just above the 40% mark.
The Catalan parliament failed to get the needed 2/3 majority to push the kind of laws were needed for a legal vote, but they did it anyway so it's no wonder a judge shut the vote down.
Stay skeptical of both extremes narrative here, the good guys are all in the middle.
Heh, they would've needed a million-strong army to close that many polling posts. What the hell was the Spanish government thinking?
They don't need to close all of them down - just scare enough people into not risking attending in order to claim it wasn't representative.
Same idea as to why such a small number of police can intimidate such a large group of people. If the civilians fought back the paramilitary (I don't think it was the actual police force) would have been destroyed.
There's not been any mention of the fire fighters on here yet? Apparently in a few areas the local fire fighters stepped in to defend the public from the paramilitaries - either by forming barriers or by fighting back. That's going to cause another completely new clusterfeth.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.
How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?
By same right we have done that before past oh..centuries? We(we as in US. Finland is just following around knowing we are dependant on them) got bigger guns.
Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.
So standard "we have holy right to our land previous rulers didn't have when we usurped them" defence.
Bah. It was allowed to get independent then, it still is.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I think he is referring to how some police in Spain are affiliated with the civil authorities and others the military authorities.
The ones used to disperse this referendum were the ones affiliated with the military so could be called 'paramilitary' using the dictionary definition of the word.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's where I wanted to get. I've seen several references to "paramilitary" refering to the Guardia Civil which leaving aside the negative connotations is just not a proper definition. The Guardia Civil is a Gendarmerie, like the Italian Carabinieri, or the Canadian mounties.
There are no such paramilitary forces in Spain, what you saw in the news were riot Police and Guardia Civil.
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Kroem wrote: The ones used to disperse this referendum were the ones affiliated with the military so could be called 'paramilitary' using the dictionary definition of the word.
Both Policía Nacional and Guardia Civil were involved.
Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.
Define "Real".
Like ISIS or Gamergate, Antifa is an ideology and a movement, not a clearly defined organisation. In fact, many distinct and independent organisations march in the name of Antifa. Literally anybody can call themselves Antifa.
My point is that if people want to protect against "Fascism", Spain is where they should be.
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.
Thanks for the clarification. So they ARE military, rather than being military-like (paramilitary)?
jouso wrote: Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?
I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.
That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.
Thanks for the clarification. So they ARE military, rather than being military-like (paramilitary)?
Since they respond to the ministry of defence, yes.
Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.
Define "Real".
Like ISIS or Gamergate, Antifa is an ideology and a movement, not a clearly defined organisation. In fact, many distinct and independent organisations march in the name of Antifa. Literally anybody can call themselves Antifa.
My point is that if people want to protect against "Fascism", Spain is where they should be.
Anyone can claim to be. These groups are more a umbrella idea, or a name. They represent ideas.
There is no command chain, the groups are there own group. There is not a real highrachy, orgonisation or group plan.
Apparently, footage has emerged of the local police trying to defend the people from the Guarda Civil. And this comes after the local fire brigade tried to defend them as well. Really serious stuff.
Will the EU will start thinking about invoking article 7 on Spain? Or is that just reserved for the governments that stand against them?
Future War Cultist wrote: Apparently, footage has emerged of the local police trying to defend the people from the Guarda Civil. And this comes after the local fire brigade tried to defend them as well. Really serious stuff.
Will the EU will start thinking about invoking article 7 on Spain? Or is that just reserved for the governments that stand against them?
Hopefully the EU will start to do something. So far their silence has been the loudest of all...
This is really taking the usual "Police vs Fire" rivalry to a new level, we gotta step up our game here in the US:
Fair play to the firefighters there though, and props to them. "You want to show up in protective gear and helmets to beat people up, well we got our own protective gear and helmets. Don't make us get the hoses..."
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.
How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?
By same right we have done that before past oh..centuries? We(we as in US. Finland is just following around knowing we are dependant on them) got bigger guns.
Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.
So standard "we have holy right to our land previous rulers didn't have when we usurped them" defence.
Bah. It was allowed to get independent then, it still is.
It's not that independence is illegal, it's that the Catalan parliament hasn't even followed its own constitution. It's "independence, and feth the people if they think otherwise!" rather than actually caring about if people want to be independent or not.
None of which excuses the police brutality, of course.
not the only strong arm tactics they used. earlier in September tthey arrested multiple officials in the region, raided offices and probblyy did not help matters.
So what's there next move?
Deposelocal police? have the gurda civile take over the region and such?
Though a full blown occupation in effect would likely be a PR disator.
This was like sending Police from London to seize scottish papers, beat up UK citizens, beat up UK emergancy services and such.
well it was Spanish national security forces who even where facing the regional police and fire service who where willing to stand between them and people.
so what do thy do?
its obvious Catalan local emergency services in some fraction, how many is unkown are loyal to there people and not Spain right now. they stood there getting beat up for them.
do they take over and impose control on the region, but that's not going to be popular? EU, well . they in a pickle, Spain is a major and old member. if you don't act though your seen tto condone there actions..
though if they leave, they already shown the image of madrid is black clad thugs, and now burned alot of good relations between them and Catalonia leaders. The abaility to negotiate a outcome is going to be quite abit harder.
what kind of deal do you now work out, one side says no, the others now wantts full autonomy.
before you might of managed a fudgedeal, now . not as easy,.
that image has thrown the indepence groups a big hand, look here, see these thugs beating up kids and old women. its quite the dividing imagery while you exploit your brave catalan services standing arm in arm between the people and the thugs. your now casting yourself as the defender.
so, Spains, EU, all one big pickle indeed.
And if EU considers this fine. well im glad we out the EU.
jhe90 wrote: that image has thrown the indepence groups a big hand, look here, see these thugs beating up kids and old women. its quite the dividing imagery while you exploit your brave catalan services standing arm in arm between the people and the thugs. your now casting yourself as the defender.
A real mess indeed. Before this the majority of the Catalans were quite happy with the autonomy they have and would most likely still say no to independence, so it would have been best to just ignore them. Sending in thugs to beat up people was just what was needed to make even the nay-sayers reconsider their position.
As I said previously, the Referendum and actions of the Catalonian goverment where absurd, they should all be at this point, prosecuted.
But the response of the central goverment was even worse, and at the end of the day the ones that paid for that where the citizens that with more reason or no, they where trying to peacefully vote in a referendum that their own goverment did organiced.
And as Jouso said, this is gonna benefit bot the Catalonian and the Central spanish Goverment. Is a shame, really.
And by the way, in Spain we don't have a Constitution. Our constitution is a travesty. A constitution should be made by a Constituent assembly with representatives of all the territories of the nation, like we did in 1812 with the PEPA in Cádiz, during the Spanish independence war against the French.
Our constitution, the bastard child of the regime of the 78 was made in a office, by literally the same officers and politicians that were in power under Franco dictatorship.
Many times you'll ear about the "Spanish transition". That term is a faux. There was no transition, the power structures are the same now than in 1960, there where only changes in names, because the power remained in the same hands.
The idea of a Democratic Rupture from the Franco's Regime was discarded early on. Today Spain lives in Franquism 2.0.
The idea of a Democratic Rupture from the Franco's Regime was discarded early on. Today Spain lives in Franquism 2.0.
I had always wondered about that. Thanks.
To put a clear example of that, the Father of one of our past presidents, José María Aznar, was a official from the Franco Regime during the Civil War, and a pro-Franco periodist.
Father of Aznar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Aznar_Acedo
Yodhrin wrote: Yup. And not content with assaulting old ladies, they've moved on to 15 year old kids:
Don't believe everything you see on Twitter and similar webs about the evil Guardia Civil assaulting kids yesterday. That's a screenshot from a video taken in 2012.
Sounds like skullduggery on all sides regarding the referendum itself, but looks like the Guardia Civil was totally out of control on the streets. I would hope there are some consequences for that, both on Spain and from the greater EU. That cannot be tolerated.
not the only strong arm tactics they used. earlier in September tthey arrested multiple officials in the region, raided offices and probblyy did not help matters.
Yeah, which were outright justified in plenty of cases since they broke the laws of data security by a) getting censal data without permission and, most importantly, b) giving it to entities that SHOULDN'T have access to it even if they had permission (mostly to ease the access to the referendum). The 1-O, though, they have no leg where to stand.
Yeah. Our riot units can be tough, they have been nasty and cracked a few skulls but that was a whole new level...
That was downright brutality, for political means and alot different say the London riots etc where they where facing criminals.
From a legal standpoint, those people weren't assembling peacefully. They were in the way of the police complying with a court order (removing ballots and boxes), something that had been on the news for weeks.
In cases where action hasn't been proportionate, it will be dealt with (probably ending up in the ECHR at some point).
From a legal standpoint, those people weren't assembling peacefully. They were in the way of the police complying with a court order (removing ballots and boxes), something that had been on the news for weeks.
That is assembling peacefully. Getting in the way is not threatening and does not need to be dealt with by flinging teenagers down flights of stairs and pulling people around by their hair.
They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
d-usa wrote: They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
Which is what they should have done, and is the reason why the president and the chief of police should resign.
Still, some perspective: our of a couple hundred locations there were problems on less than 10. A Dutch work colleague that works in Barcelona told me how their parents called him 3-4 times on Sunday to ask if he was ok.
Of course he was, he was strolling with his kid in the park like every Sunday then had a coffee somewhere.
Yeah, even if the Catalonian government were being exploitative and manipulative in their handling of this referendum, the Spanish government were foolish for buying their trap hook, line and sinker. Even worse, their actions have left people of all types bleeding and battered. There's no going back from this as the moral high ground has been well and truly surrendered. There's so many better ways they could have handled this.
Also, I understand that the Catalonians are fighting back by forcing the Guarda Civil out of their hotels and refusing to serve or sell them food. Incidentally, the same thing happened in Ireland with the British before the war for independence kicked off. I'm not saying it'll come to independence but if I was a Catalonian I'd be looking for it now.
d-usa wrote: This is really taking the usual "Police vs Fire" rivalry to a new level, we gotta step up our game here in the US:
Fair play to the firefighters there though, and props to them. "You want to show up in protective gear and helmets to beat people up, well we got our own protective gear and helmets. Don't make us get the hoses..."
Another fake. The video shows no violence just a face off between police blocking the way to a "voting" station and the firefighters trying to force the way in, not protecting the people as you say. The violent thumbnail is from 2013 riots against budget cuts where the violence was started by firefighters trying to burn things in front of the Catalonia`s Parliament.
There is a propaganda war that the Spanish police has lost just by seeing the reactions in this thread tho it doesn't surprise me knowing about the traditional British press bias against Spain.
M.
PS: BTW the evil jackbooted thugs suppressing the heroic firefighters in that thumbnail and Metro article are the Mossos d'Escuadra. Another set of heroes from Sunday that usually feel more comfortable repressing Catalonian citizens at the beck and call of the regional government. /sarcasm
To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
welshhoppo wrote: To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
welshhoppo wrote: To be totally honest, in this day and age of social media and social society where people have the ability to create their own truths based off what facts and fictions are tossed into the swirling pit it doesn't matter whats right and whats wrong.
The boring truth isn't as popular as the interesting lie. Now all the international world will see is Spain having used fascist tactics against normal everyday people, ripping the hair off children (as per the previous picture) and the brave firefighters of Catalonia facing off against the Spanish form of the SS.
It makes a more interesting story and will be shared hundredfold over the actual truth.
d-usa wrote: They know where the ballot boxes are, so it’s easy to park officers out there and let people vote and then simply intercept the boxes as they are leaving to be counted. That’s how you deal with peaceful resistance like that.
Yeah, thats exactly how It sould have been made. But that wasn't "hard enough in those traitors" for the more nationalistic elements that support the PP, and that way the Catalonian Goverment wouldn't be allowed to play the victim card.
And yes, the Mossos D'esquadra are a regional police that is just at the beck and call of the pro-independence goverment. They had 0 problems to repress (With special brutality compared with the rest of Spain police) the protest in catalonia during the worst time of the crisis during 2012. It was back then when a woman lost an eye for a Rubber ball shoot by a Mosso D'esquadra agains't her face.
But many people has casually forgotten that, and they believe that now the Mossos are their "protectors", when at the end of the day the even doing obviously many good things and necesary things, are here to answer to the Catalonian Goverm.
How can the rest of the EU let this happen? They are a powerful diplomatic body of civilised countries, and when one ends up with a problem like this, nothing happens!
Maybe the internet has made it too easy to find people in the world who have views we find abhorrent, and somehow think whole other groups of people are like that?
I mean, you see stuff on facebook all the time of something really awful or stupid someone on the "other side" said or did, and how easy is it to start to think those outliers and extremists are typical of their group? How easy is it to constantly have your own opinion validated and repeated back to you while others are vilified? Isn't that how we get extremist terrorists who are willing to die just to kill some strangers who don't share their beliefs? Are we just becoming more divided in general?
Maybe the internet has made it too easy to find people in the world who have views we find abhorrent, and somehow think whole other groups of people are like that?
I mean, you see stuff on facebook all the time of something really awful or stupid someone on the "other side" said or did, and how easy is it to start to think those outliers and extremists are typical of their group? How easy is it to constantly have your own opinion validated and repeated back to you while others are vilified? Isn't that how we get extremist terrorists who are willing to die just to kill some strangers who don't share their beliefs? Are we just becoming more divided in general?
Nah, killing people because you don't like what they are saying is as old as humanity itself. Extremism existed long before the internet did. The only thing that has changed is that with the internet, it is much easier to get news of far-away places. So now you can hear about every single extremist incident in the world, whereas in the past you would only hear it if it was really important or happened close to you.
CAPTAIN COWARD wrote: How can the rest of the EU let this happen? They are a powerful diplomatic body of civilised countries, and when one ends up with a problem like this, nothing happens!
Because this is nothing in truth. Wanna see the protests in France? Now, THAT is brutality.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
We saw in Greece and Italy that they have no qualms about interfering in a nation's internal affairs when its convenient and in the EU's interest to do so. That it is failing to do so now with Spain just proves their founding principles of Human Rights to be a sham.
Seems after beating up the locals. There rather not welcome in catalonia.
You Don, t see what every often.
EU and EU leaders very quiet on events as a local issue as sorts but EU is very very quiet on the issue regardless of things they have not even called for calm.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jeez, the Guarda Civil are a bunch of Nationalist thugs. Heres a photo of Policemen in their hotel waving Spanish flags and jeering at protesters outside.
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
If you want to ignore that there's been no outside interference from another country that wants to annex Catalonia, and has been actively engaged in undermining the Spanish government for years and is now denying sending troops across a national border to instigate a civil war in the rest of the Spain. But yeah sure. These scenarios are so similar. How dare the EU express a different opinion about an internal conflict than was expressed in an internal conflict engineered by a foreign power angry that it lost its puppet government.
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
If you want to ignore that there's been no outside interference from another country that wants to annex Catalonia, and has been actively engaged in undermining the Spanish government for years and is now denying sending troops across a national border to instigate a civil war in the rest of the Spain. But yeah sure. These scenarios are so similar. How dare the EU express a different opinion about an internal conflict than was expressed in an internal conflict engineered by a foreign power angry that it lost its puppet government.
Much hypocrisy. Much loss.
You might want to get your facts straight. All of those things happened after the EU started meddling in the Maidan protests. And Yanukovich, while generally pro-Russian (as he got his votes mostly from Ukraine's pro-Russian part of the population) was far from a Russian puppet. Also, Russia still has shown no desire to annex the mess called Ukraine.
And regardless of all of that, the point that he makes is still valid. Ukraine under Yanukovich was a sovereign country and a democracy. The protests against the Yanukovich government were a purely internal political affair. Yet the EU did not hesistate at all about violating Ukraine's sovereignty and interfering in its internal affairs. And now they are saying they won't meddle or even comment on the issues in Spain because that would violate Spain's sovereignty. The EU's respect for sovereignty is selective. They do not actually respect the principle of national sovereignty at all, they only respect allies and power politics. That is where the hypocrisy you are looking for is.
The differences between the situation in Spain and Ukraine are rather simple and very plain. It's very easy to see why the EU would respond to one in in one manner and the other in another manner, unless you have an ax to grind in one of them, which is where I point out how predictable it is who is involved in this particular line of talk
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Iron_Captain wrote: The EU's respect for sovereignty is selective. They do not actually respect the principle of national sovereignty at all, they only respect allies and power politics. That is where the hypocrisy you are looking for is.
Of course its selective. No one in the world applies sovereignty in unilateral terms, because most people and most countries acknowledge that sovereignty is important but not absolute. You can debate the EU position that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet sure, but being wrong about Ukraine doesn't make the EU response to Spain hypocritical.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jeez, the Guarda Civil are a bunch of Nationalist thugs. Heres a photo of Policemen in their hotel waving Spanish flags and jeering at protesters outside.
1st. Get your facts right those agents are Policía Nacional not Guardia Civil.
3rd. As I've said before you are giving incomplete information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdJnmkUMlU Why are you posting a thumbnail and not the whole video? Could be because if you give the whole picture your argument of Nationalist thugs loses strength?
Jeering thugs taunting the defenseless civilians or a close knit group of professionals in a very difficult position cheering each other to raise morale? Is that cheering and crying "'¡Viva España!", a hail to one's own country, a sign of Fascism nowadays?
Fun fact of that video. Minute 2.20 onward Mossos D`Scuadra (Regional police) arrest a woman that tried to fly a Spanish flag in support of the Policía Nacional near one of the hotels where they were lodged. I'm sure you and everybody else posting in this thread were unaware of that and I'm holding my breath while I await your condemnations for this violation of her free speech rights.
On the other hand you could get the whole picture but that involves reading something more complicated that a tweet with an impacting photo before commenting. Yes the police response was heavy handed but we have the same issue in every US shooting thread if a police officer on duty tells you to comply with law X and you fail to do so who is to blame then for the consequences?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
Where are you getting 800 from? The biggest number I can find from any legitimate source is 100, and that's with reading reports of the protesters firing on police and the like. These two events are hardly alike at all.
So on one hand you have 800 dead (forget about 500, I was quoting from memory) and several thousand injured vs. 4 people who required hospital stay (2 of which are still in hospital, one rubber bullet hit to an eye, and a 70-year old who experienced a stroke during the demonstrations).
Let me spell it again: snipers firing military-grade weapons against protesters from the rooftops vs modern riot control (of the kind the UK doesn't hesitate to use when needed).
Where are you getting 800 from? The biggest number I can find from any legitimate source is 100, and that's with reading reports of the protesters firing on police and the like. These two events are hardly alike at all.
Yeah... the ante has definitely been upped. Curious to see what the next step will be...
Article 155.
Spain can rescind there anatomy and take direct control of the region.
however that would also be pretty inflammatory and negotiating a solution would be better idea.
djones520 wrote: Sure, Spain can attempt to, but the question is will they, and if they do, how hard are the Catalonian's prepared to resist?
Why not? You have a local government trying to push a unilateral declaration of Independence (supported by 35-41% of the population) who has not only not respected due process, but also disobeying court orders.
Direct rule, then fresh elections. Hopefully it won't take 50 years like northern Ireland to go back to normal.
@djones those were Interfax figures now I look at them, so probably inflated. Glad you agree both situations are leagues apart, though which was the point I wanted to make.
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.
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Howard A Treesong wrote: These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.
16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:
25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment
These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.
'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.
And it was made possible with an unlikely benefactor... The Bourbon King Juan Carlos I of Spain.
I've read his defiant act against Franquist Coup... and this 'formed' Spanish Democracy it is today.
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.
As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.
Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.
Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.
Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.
On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.
Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.
I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.
jbeil wrote: I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.
Odds on him being arrested before that date?
I gathered that. Parliament voting on somthing on Monday regarding independence.
They expect people to be arrested etc.
However right now mediation is needed not arrests. Arresting people will only make it ever harder for a peaceful solution.
I Don, t see it helping the situation.
People need to sit down and talk. Not send in there companies of thugs.
jbeil wrote: I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.
Odds on him being arrested before that date?
I couldn't either, but from what my parents (who could find the time to listen to it) told me he basically said the king's speech was disappointing and asked for dialogue.
And said that on Monday we're leaving as expected.
Basically I think he's trying to get a negotiation of any kind going to justify postposing the UDI, because if he doesn't have an excuse and doesn't UDI on Monday someone else is going to do it for him.
So dis is gonna bi Gud. BRB, gonna stock up on preserved foodstuffs.
As for police arresting everyone involved? Yeah, good luck with that. That's just gonna make it worse! Boy, we're in for a rough ride.
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.
LOL. This is a modern military, garrison location doesn't mean alleigance.
Anyways. Catalonians are unlikely to get support from the military. Aside from the existing anymosity between the two, the percentage of catalonians in the spanish army is laughable, barely reaching 3.5% of the active manpower (and the ratio is likely to further shrink if we add in active reserve) and most of them are likely to be from the Red Belt and similars.
jbeil wrote: I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.
Odds on him being arrested before that date?
I couldn't either, but from what my parents (who could find the time to listen to it) told me he basically said the king's speech was disappointing and asked for dialogue.
And said that on Monday we're leaving as expected.
Basically I think he's trying to get a negotiation of any kind going to justify postposing the UDI, because if he doesn't have an excuse and doesn't UDI on Monday someone else is going to do it for him.
So dis is gonna bi Gud. BRB, gonna stock up on preserved foodstuffs.
As for police arresting everyone involved? Yeah, good luck with that. That's just gonna make it worse! Boy, we're in for a rough ride.
Yeah. Stock up on canned food. Bottled water and other basics. It might be a wise idea.
As for Police. Yes that would make things extremely bad...
More people hurt. That only make the tension ever higher
Last thing you need to add is mayters..
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.
As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.
Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.
Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.
Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.
On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.
Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.
It doesn't matter that the central government has more guns than the Catalans. The army isn't going to shoot unarmed citizens (not unless they want to be disarmed by an international peacekeeping mission. The EU may be reluctant to intervene in internal affairs of Spain, when people start getting killed, that reluctance is going to fade very very quickly.). With unarmed, peaceful resistance even the strongest empires can be defeated. Just ask Gandhi. Because it is the underdog and because of Spanish brutality, Catalonia already has international sympathy on its side. If the Catalan government plays this right, their position will be very strong. What is going to happen depends entirely on their next moves.
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.
As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.
Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.
Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.
Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.
On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.
Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.
It doesn't matter that the central government has more guns than the Catalans. The army isn't going to shoot unarmed citizens (not unless they want to be disarmed by an international peacekeeping mission. The EU may be reluctant to intervene in internal affairs of Spain, when people start getting killed, that reluctance is going to fade very very quickly.). With unarmed, peaceful resistance even the strongest empires can be defeated. Just ask Gandhi. Because it is the underdog and because of Spanish brutality, Catalonia already has international sympathy on its side. If the Catalan government plays this right, their position will be very strong. What is going to happen depends entirely on their next moves.
I desperately hope you are right, but I am tremendously cynical about the European Union - I think unless people are being gunned down by the hundreds in the streets and all the cameras are showing it, Juncker and Barnier won't say anything that risks upsetting a member of their project. I really doubt that it will come to that - on Monday Puidgemont will declare a UDI, and probably ask the police and armed forces to leave Catalonia. After that, I doubt they'll leave.
The more I think about it, the less likely a happy end to all this seems. I hope the Catalans get their independence but I doubt it. More likely that the leadership will be arrested and apart from international condemnation, not a thing will be done about it. I suppose I should count my lucky stars I'm not a Catalan.
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
Galas wrote: For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.
Galas wrote: For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.
Because Spain thought it would be a great chance to make a fresh batch of tastelessly offensive memes;
Galas wrote: For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.
Yeah. Our goverment is very, very incompetent. And historically, the central goverment has always give privileges to the Catalonian goverment because during many legislatures, they have been key to achieve enough votes to become president.
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Howard A Treesong wrote: These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.
16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:
25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment
These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.
'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.
And it was made possible with an unlikely benefactor... The Bourbon King Juan Carlos I of Spain.
I've read his defiant act against Franquist Coup... and this 'formed' Spanish Democracy it is today.
The hell you are talking? Maybe it is difficult to understand for you coming from Thailand where the king has more power and influence in the running of the country but in Spain King Felipe VI is the nominal head of the Army but that's where it stops and the Army swears fealty to the Constitution and obeys the government as the representative of the will of the Spanish people. If the King were to say "go and overthrow the government" I don't think any of the current crop of generals would lift a finger other than to write an email saying something along the lines of the King is drunk and joking around, don't mind him.
Galas wrote: For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.
Because that's the Spanish tories you're talking about. Unlike in other countries where there's some kind of proper right party (AfD in Germany, LePenists in France, PVV in Netherlands, etc.) the Spanish PP gathers their support from everything that's slightly right off center, and of course the further to the right, the more vocal they got.
Rajoy has been derided as too soft by significant sectors of his own party for quite some time now and, electorally speaking, it's just nice that there is some sort of not-really-outside enemy that covers up the seemingly endless stream of political corruption that is hitting the news since the last regional elections where they lost a lot of regional governments and key cities (of the big cities, only in Málaga was the PP able to hold).
This heavy-handed approach that appeals to their loyalist (for lack of a better term) base plays right into the Catalan separatists who, unable to get a majority have been playing the victim card for a couple election cycles, too.... and in pushing their voter base into a frenzy have jumped a quasi-anarchist party like the CUP as holding the key to the government.
So of course the easiest course of action would be to just make a proper referendum, let people vote making extremely clear what leaving Spain entails (out of the euro, out of the EU, yadda yadda) and people still want to go for it, so be it. In any case, yesterday one biopharma manufacturer (Oryzon) quietly moved their operating base from Barcelona to Madrid (the second company in the stock exchange to do so on the last year) , and both main Catalan banks announced contingency plans to move their base to Madrid in case of an UDI.
This is still in the teenagers looking tough phase, it's now time for adults to take over.
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.
That's the shame. Spanish Bourbons are reverting back to the old ways of Louis XIV of France. (where their ancestors came from)... "
Throughout history. the Bourbons (Either in France or Spain) are quite a conservative and repressive Catholic leaders. By the Time Louis XVI was being ousted. Spain still runs the Inqiusition, and Jews are the favorite subjects to the Inquisitors bully. Only with the comings of Bonapartes (Arch nemesis to the Bourbons) did the Inquisition dissolved.
Not sure if the Heresy still a high crime by the 18th and 19th century Spain? (and when has it been decriminalized)
Miguelsan wrote: The hell you are talking? Maybe it is difficult to understand for you coming from Thailand...
Nah dude, it's not because he's from Thailand. It's just, this is LoneCat. This is what he does. Takes little bits of historical knowledge and runs with it in all kinds of amazing ways. Try and have fun with it, enjoy spending a minute or two pretending to live in LoneCat's world where anything and everything is caused by whatever historical tidbit LoneCat just read about.
Yeah well Spain revealed they care more about money and influence from there than the citizens there. No wonder they want out of country that only wants money from you.
Galas wrote: For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.
This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.
Something that could have been said of America when they seceded, Finland. Spain itself when they seceded...
Let's face it. No country actually makes allowances in law for part to separate. If independence would be dependant on that we wouldn't have most if any countries we have now.
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does. They couldn't reach the 2/3rds majority they themselves had set up for this type of decision but decided to run with it anyway. There's a reason voter turnout was less than 50%; the remainers boycotted the election because it's illegal even by the Catalonian government's own standards. It's not just Madrid throwing a tantrum, it's the Catalonian government ignoring the democratically decided (Catalonian, not national!) laws because they have their own agenda.
Aye, I imagine the correct response (otherwise known as how I would have done it) would have been something along the lines of, "you realise by your own constitution this isn't legal, once you have that 2/3rds, we as the central gov wil be more than happy to help organise a referendum" *proceeds to throw money at the remain campaign*.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Aye, I imagine the correct response (otherwise known as how I would have done it) would have been something along the lines of, "you realise by your own constitution this isn't legal, once you have that 2/3rds, we as the central gov wil be more than happy to help organise a referendum" *proceeds to throw money at the remain campaign*.
Granting a referendum and throwing money at the remain campaign to ettle an issue has had pretty 50/50 results in recent attempts...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution). Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
By early 12th Century Muslims controlled less than half the country and it was the less populated half other than the Mediterranean Coast. Only reason the Christian kingdoms took so long to beat the crap out of the is because between the big pushes South they were more interested in killing each other as long as the Taifas behaved.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
I'm sorry but this is not how this works. First of all, even if I recognise that independence is always take by the weapons or by inaction of the central goverment, Independence is never adquired without a mayor support from the population. What you are defending here is that a goverment that won the election from the electorade system but that don't has the mayority of the support of the people (2/3 is needed by their OWN constitution) is FORCING a independence movement that the mayority of the catalonian people don't want!
And please, no more "Espanya ens roba" (Spain steal us), because that has been proved FALSE, one time, and another, and another. Catalonia is the Spanish Autonomic Comunity with the highest debt, and the one alongside Vasque Country with the most fiscal and economical privileges! But you are right in one point: Spanish Goverment cares zero about Spanish people. We are run by a bunch of franquist thugs and corrupt politicians.
I'm from Galicia, we had our own independentist movement in the past. It never achieved any kind of noticiable support. But we have a nationalistic galeguist party, the BNG. In some times, they did reached goverment in Galicia from post-electoral pacts and those kind of tricks. If once in the goverment, they forced a independence movement in the premise that Spain steal from Galicia (Fact: Galicia, alongside Extremadura, Murcia, the both Castillas and Asturias is one of the poorest Autonomic Comuniteis of spain, and this is not because people here don't like to work, is because during Franquism all the industry whas moved from those provinces to Catalonia and Vasque Country), even with a minority support from the people, do you will say "Ok,I hope Galicia gets their independence"?
In what moment in time, the fact that you want independence has become a instant moral high ground? All independence movements are right? In what time I live where, not even the law because as said independence movements normally ignore it, but even the support of a mayority of the people isn't needed for a society to become independent? To have a right to become independent?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
By early 12th Century Muslims controlled less than half the country and it was the less populated half other than the Mediterranean Coast. Only reason the Christian kingdoms took so long to beat the crap out of the is because between the big pushes South they were more interested in killing each other as long as the Taifas behaved.
M.
The Spanish "Reconquista" has been long mythified and in many cases, people just don't know how it worked. Is long demostrated that even under Muslim occupation, the inmense mayority of the population in those "green" regions where still catholic and iberic natives. Many of them forcefully converted to Islam, but after they where free from the goverment of the muslims, they just did goed back to christianism. A fact that meant that on many occasions their living conditions worsened.
And the "Reconquest" wasn't some kind of heroic military campaing. It was, throug centuries, a bunch of little battles and a ton of diplomacy that achieved the change of rulers from the lands, from Muslims to Catholic kings. The fact is that the Muslim half anf the Catholic half fought betweent themselves as much as one versus the other.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
Poor Visigoths, they were the ones that started the idea of Spain (Hispania) as a country and had the uncontested rule over the whole country for 200 years but nobody remembers them.
Answering your comment about the Umayyad Caliphate. The troops of the Caliphate entered Spain conquered most of it circa 718 but by 756 the Umayyad dynasty fled from Abbasid forces and established a exile government in Cordoba where they continued their rule over Al Andalus and part of North Africa for about 150 years or so before collapsing. So no, Spain did not become independent from the Caliphate the same way Poland and occupied France didn't become independent from Nazi Germany when WW2 ended. First Al Andalus or Muslim Spain became the Caliphate, and after a 700 year war in Spain the Christian Kingdoms kicked out the descendants of the invaders. It's just that as usual Spaniards were more interested in fighting each other than pushing South for most of the time.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
Carthage, Rome, the Visigoths who actually established what would become "Spain" under the Toulous (Portugal would form from the Suevi, another German tribal group that settled loosely in the area now Portugal), and then the Islamic Caliphate via the Berbers who would eventually become their own quai-Caliphate until the success of the Reconquista. Technically speaking there is an important distinction between declaring independence and conquest. Spain never declared independence from anyone. It was continually conquered and reconquered by different groups until eventually you get Spain which managed to go unconquered and thus is still around XD
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Spain isn't protesting on grounds of CATALONIANS constitution but that THEIR says Spain is united and cannot be split.
So their arqument is Catalonians are ignoring Spain's law. Well gee that's historically what 100% of independence declarations have been. I'm pretty sure Russian law didn't have allowance for Finland to declare themselves independent. Or Britain have allowance that do this and you can declare legally independent for America. Nor Spain from whatever they went independent from. It's always against law of the former parent country. That's how it works. No country wants part of itself to get separated so they sure don't make law "do this and you get automatically independence".
It's always case of can the separationist fight off(America) or is it too much bother to be worth it to enforce "no you won't"(Finland. With WW1, Civil unrest which would culminate to death of last Tsar Russia clearly decided they don't want to bother dealing with small fry that's are that would become Finland. Certainly we would have been unable to beat the crap out of retaliatory force if Russia had been feeling like not allowing us to get independent!). That or your independence fails.
Now it's therefore question of can Catalonia fight off Spain militarily or will attempt to enforce compliance be too much trouble for Spain resulting in them allowing it. If neither happens then Catalonia won't become independent and leaders will be likely jailed.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
It may be many things, but hypocritical isn't one of them. Spain is not a country that declared independence from another, it was formed when Ferdinand and Isabella married and united the two largest kingdoms in Iberia. It wasn't a rebellion from a larger ruling nation, it was formed by merging two smaller nations together.
Ever since, Spain has transitioned between various rulers, but it's always been Spain.
So no, it's not hypocritical of Spain to say that "You can't do that! It's illegal!". It is a bit silly of course, in a "duhhhh" kinda way.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Spain isn't protesting on grounds of CATALONIANS constitution but that THEIR says Spain is united and cannot be split.
So their arqument is Catalonians are ignoring Spain's law.
Their argument is that Catalonians aren't following their own law. There was a 2/3 threshold in the Catalan parliament under Catalan law to pass a new electoral law which the Catalan regional government couldn't get, so they resorted to questionable parliamentary tactics and skipping parliamentary procedures in order to get the law to the floor, and then only with a simple majority.
That's why a judge ruled that the referendum was null and void.
Now that companies are walking out (Catalonia two banks have moved their legal base, and several other companies are doing the same) we'll see what happens next. This is not the XVIII century anymore, there are pensions, healthcare, jobs and all kinds of things people take for granted in jeopardy. That's not something the 70% will risk.
Mr. Burning wrote: How badly do Catalans want independence from greater Spain?
If the will is there then jobs and financial security come second to the need for such mundane stability.
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies, so I'm sure that many people at this point will just prefer an abism that still be part of spain, but many other people isn't gonna be happy to see Catalonia economical structure destroyed by the independence procés.
But at this point Puigdemont and the Catalonian goverment has do various attempts to negotiate with the Central Goverment. Because as I said, nobody in the catalonian or spanish goverment tought for a second that Catalonia could end being independent.
Only the people in the street believed that, from both sides.
As others posters have noted, theres only one way Catalonia can end independent:
-Starting a Civil War, and winning it.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
It may be many things, but hypocritical isn't one of them. Spain is not a country that declared independence from another, it was formed when Ferdinand and Isabella married and united the two largest kingdoms in Iberia. It wasn't a rebellion from a larger ruling nation, it was formed by merging two smaller nations together.
Ever since, Spain has transitioned between various rulers, but it's always been Spain.
So no, it's not hypocritical of Spain to say that "You can't do that! It's illegal!". It is a bit silly of course, in a "duhhhh" kinda way.
Yeah, I think Tneva82 you are trying to hard to paint Spain as the "bad" one here. (And I'll separate Spain from the Spanish goverment that we have now). No all countrys have become "independent" from other country.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Yeah. India leaving the British Empire is different. India was a burden upon an already crumbling Empire that was holding it's colonies more out of nostalgia than any benefit that holding them gave.
Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, dating all the way back to the 1400s.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Murder people in the street and you will see that 20% of GDP magically vanishing into thin air. Violence is terrible for the economy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
It's actually slightly less than 40%.
92% of the 43% turnout give us 39%.
And if you account for people voting 3, 4 or even 6 times with hidden cameras, that the census and count was a shambles you get that those numbers are pretty meaningless.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
It's actually slightly less than 40%.
92% of the 43% turnout give us 39%.
And if you account for people voting 3, 4 or even 6 times with hidden cameras, that the census and count was a shambles you get that those numbers are pretty meaningless.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Murder people in the street and you will see that 20% of GDP magically vanishing into thin air. Violence is terrible for the economy.
That's true. Civil war or strife will dent a economy alot faster than any other thing you could do.
It crashes entire economies and that of your neighbours too.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
Correct??
Not really. Juan Carlos father, Don Juan de Borbón, wanted a Constitutive Court and referendum, so Spanish people could chose if they wanted Monarchy or a Republic. Juan Carlos treached his father and did a pact with Franco, becoming his puppet to secure that the power-structures of the Franco's Regimen remained in power, with a change in name.
Franco didn't wanted Monarchy. He wanted his regime to continue, and has time has show us, he succeded.
As Franco said in his last Christmast speech in 1969 "Lo he dejado todo atado y bien atado" (I leave it all tied and tightly bound)
Two years later, in March 1947, General Franco enacted the Law of Succession in the Headquarters of the State (fifth "fundamental law"), in which the "Head of State" was granted for life for the "Caudillo of Spain and of the Crusade, Generalissimo of the Armies, "and Article 6 conferring on Franco the right to designate a successor" as King or Regent "" at any time "and with full capacity to revoke his decision.21 Thus then the monarchy would not be restored but established in the person of the royalty that General Franco decided, thus becoming his successor "in a puppet of the dictator and his political heirs"
You are correct in that the myth about Juan Carlos being the saviour of Spain, making the transition into a Democracy, is a faux. But not in the rest.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
The latest figures were at 35% for straight up Independence.
All of the polls close to 50% included as independent a number of options like independent within a Federal Spain ir some other convoluted legal formula.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
The latest figures were at 35% for straight up Independence.
All of the polls close to 50% included as independent a number of options like independent within a Federal Spain ir some other convoluted legal formula.
Still within the expected parameters, there isn't such difference between 35% and 39%.
I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
Xenomancers wrote: I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
I don't think Spain has ever been terribly unified. If Catalonia gains independence then the Basque region would probably split off too and Spain would fracture and break up.
Xenomancers wrote: I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
I don't think Spain has ever been terribly unified. If Catalonia gains independence then the Basque region would probably split off too and Spain would fracture and break up.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
Correct??
Not really. Juan Carlos father, Don Juan de Borbón, wanted a Constitutive Court and referendum, so Spanish people could chose if they wanted Monarchy or a Republic. Juan Carlos treached his father and did a pact with Franco, becoming his puppet to secure that the power-structures of the Franco's Regimen remained in power, with a change in name.
Franco didn't wanted Monarchy. He wanted his regime to continue, and has time has show us, he succeded.
As Franco said in his last Christmast speech in 1969 "Lo he dejado todo atado y bien atado" (I leave it all tied and tightly bound)
Two years later, in March 1947, General Franco enacted the Law of Succession in the Headquarters of the State (fifth "fundamental law"), in which the "Head of State" was granted for life for the "Caudillo of Spain and of the Crusade, Generalissimo of the Armies, "and Article 6 conferring on Franco the right to designate a successor" as King or Regent "" at any time "and with full capacity to revoke his decision.21 Thus then the monarchy would not be restored but established in the person of the royalty that General Franco decided, thus becoming his successor "in a puppet of the dictator and his political heirs"
You are correct in that the myth about Juan Carlos being the saviour of Spain, making the transition into a Democracy, is a faux. But not in the rest.
And What about the fall of Salazar fascist regime in Portugal? Did it strikes fear of the popular uprising in Spain too?
I don't think so. Probably, it had some influence, of course, but the continuation of the Franco Regime was totally imposible, for the organization and international interests of the members of the Falange and other levels of the regime administration.
A sad time for Spain. But at least we can laugh at it!
Galas wrote: I don't think so. Probably, it had some influence, of course, but the continuation of the Franco Regime was totally imposible, for the organization and international interests of the members of the Falange and other levels of the regime administration.
A sad time for Spain. But at least we can laugh at it!
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies,.
Citation very much needed. I heard this kind of gak all the time during the Scottish independence referendum. National identity can very often have nothing what so ever to do with xenophobia or economic fairy tails and I get very twitchy when people try to brush of a genuine desire for self determination with broad handwaves and tabloid headlines.
jhe90 wrote:No Germans volunteering to help provide airforce?
We not here yet.
Our extreme right wing party is getting a bit more popular so… step by step :(
That's the German lefts fault.
They obviously got complacent and not dealt with what's fueling them.
Theres very real issues. And unpleasant or unpopular, you'll have to face them to end there threat. Or just ignore them.... Because that's gonna fail badly.
...
Same wit Catalan issue.
Spain has to sit down, talk, however much it might not want to.
Talking averts fights and wars or thr old phrase, jaw jaw is preferable to war war.
Thetes gonna be no answer to this that'sstable and lasting unless they sit down round table.
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies,.
Citation very much needed. I heard this kind of gak all the time during the Scottish independence referendum. National identity can very often have nothing what so ever to do with xenophobia or economic fairy tails and I get very twitchy when people try to brush of a genuine desire for self determination with broad handwaves and tabloid headlines.
Everyone in Spain has regional identity, be it from Andalucia, Galicia, Vasque Country, Navarra, Asturias, Catalonia, etc..., and the be honest the situation in Scotland is very different, the ways Scotland and Britain did get unified in the United Kingdom was very different than the one of Aragon and Castille. And the social evolution has been very diferent too.
Thats why I don't like to compare different countries that want independence because everyone is a world in itself.
I consider myself a Galician patriot, I love my culture, my lenguage, my gastronomy, etc... but the independist ideology from catalonia is born from, as I said, from a nationalistic right that has push it towards the population. (That kind of ideologies are present too in Vasque Country and in a very small amount, Galicia)
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation. People don't want independence just for ONE motive, theres always a mixture. Of course people like self-determination, everyone want to not be commanded from other people. But just that desire without the society, cultural and historical background isn't enough for a population to desire independence.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Put up or shut up.
Well, the ideology promoted by the Catalonian Goverment is the "Us" agaisn't "Them". Theres the idea of Catalonia and the Catalans, hard workes, possessors of all the virtues, and then you have Spain, and the Spanish, represented with all the topics you could find in a nice jokes-book. They do not differentiate between people from Canary Islands, from Galicia or Andalucia, that have 0 in common, and put them in the same box, because thats how Nationalism works. (And I'll say here that in Spain theres not only Catalan Nationalism. Theres a strong Spanish nationalism that is the same as the Catalan one but at the inverse, where they see Spain as a homogeiniced nation, based in their arbitrary definitions of whats is a good spanish, and they put all the Catalans as greedy, as seccecionists, traitors, etc...)
And I dont know why do you assume that I have generaliced, calling "all people that want national independence as xenophobic"? I have 0 idea about the Scottish independence process, thats why I haven't talked about it. I'm talking about the Catalonian one. So please don't put works in my mouth that I haven't written.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism. Basque Country has too a strong nationalist movement. It is based in the works of Sabino Arana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana In his works, that guy literally said that the Basque "race" was superior to the rest of the inferior spanish one. He is the founder of the strongest party in Basque Country, the PNV (Nationalistic Basque Party).
Sabino Arana, coming from a Carlist background, created a xenophobic ideology centered on the purity of the Basque race and its so-called moral supremacy over other Spaniards (a derivation of the system of limpieza de sangre of Modern-Age Spain), anti-Liberal Catholic integrism, and deep opposition to the migration of other Spaniards to the Basque Country.
The Catalonian movement doesn't has as strong as a xenophobic and nationalistic foundation (But they have their own revisionistic and totally nationalistic organizations like the ANC, with the famous Víctor Cucurull) , because this wave of their independentism is much recent, but their narrative has been the same. I believe that if you talked to a convinced catalonian independentists you'll understand what I'm saying.
And yes D-Usa, the two strongest points about the independentists narrative are the economical ones and the nationalistic ones(Pushed by both ERC, and the CUP, the first ones are the same guys that have been ruling Catalonia for decades alongside CiU, barring a small period between 2003 and 2010 where they where pushed by the PSC, and are totally muddy in a long, long lists of corruption cases, being a right "nationalistic" bourgeoisie party, the second ones are the anti-capitalist from the left, that to be honest, I believe are the ones that truly believe in the possibility of Independence, but don't take my words as a fact. ) One just need to watch or ear their press conferences, and their rallys througth the years.
I'm not calling them xenophobic in the "Omg they are xenophobic, they are the worst" way. I'm calling them xenophobic because their Nationalistic movement, as all the nationalistic movement, is based in xenophoby, in a "Us" vs "Them", in the virtuous people and the sinful extrangers. In this case, Catalonians vs Spanish people. When, as I said before, people from other parts of Spain has 0 relation or similarities with the rest of Spain in the way the catalonian goverment paints them. I could look for many information about the Catalonian Nationalistic revisionism of history, but I can't find them with english subtitles. If you know spanish I could link them if you are interested?
Spoiler:
I don't like this video because they are only fragments, and of course the source is biased agaisn't independentism, but this is genuinely what this guy and their platform believe and spreads in the nationalistic and independentist movement. If you don't understand what he's saying I could transcript it to english if you like. But this guy is basically the "head" of a institute, subsidizied by the Catalan Goverment, to revisionism history and make everything catalan, saying things like Catalonia existed since the 2700 before Christ, that Cristobal Colón was from Catalonia, etc... theres many nice quotes and speeches from the heads of catalonian institutions about how ""Spain is our enemy", or "People that don't speak catalá isn't catalan", "Spanish people are thiefs for the fact that they are spanish", etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19tAN2JGNVk
And yes, I'm making generalisations here, of course. I'm not calling all catalonians or even all independentists xenophobics, or nationalists, or that they want independence because economical reasons. Every individual is unique and they'll have their own opinion in the matter. I'm talking about the biggest parts of the Catalan Goverment narrative, and those are two: Economical reasons, Nationalistic reasons. I don't know what to say, just like Trump had his Wall, one of the biggest phrases of the independists movement was "Espanya ens roba" (Spain steal us)
Spoiler:
And with all of this, I don't want to defend in any shape or form the Central Goverment, their actions, or the ones of the police. They are even worse, full of corruption and with 0 interest for the well being of their citizens. They are more a Mafia than a goverment. Personally I'm republican. I want a reform of the constitution and a Federal State for Spain, but I'm not a Independentists, not a Galician one, and obviously not a Catalonian one.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
Indeed. Nationalism is not inherently Xenophobic. It often shows up together, but they are not the same thing.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
Indeed. Nationalism is not inherently Xenophobic. It often shows up together, but they are not the same thing.
To be fair once you divide a clean line between patriotism and nationalism and cease using them as synonyms this is kind of what you're left with. And he did divide that line, so maybe deal with whether or not Catalonian independence is as he described instead of jumping down his throat about the semantics. He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
LordofHats wrote: He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
LordofHats wrote: He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
Well that textbook clearly needs a new edition.
No amount of editions in the world is going to help if you refuse to read them.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
_
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Put up or shut up.
Well, I suppose I should bring to the fore the many, many times the CiU and ERC guys (and quite a few high ranking ones) who complained about lazy andalucians stealing the good catalanas' jobs, shouldn't I? That's actually the tip of the Iceberg but Catalonians aren't the peak of cosmopolitanism.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
Then kindly refrain from making black and white statements.
So how about you refrain from making this statements instead and do provide something actually productive to the debate? Because there's a heavy component of misinformation/delusion in the Catalonian's economical arguments: all their arguments are founded in an entirely ceteris paribus basis, which is unsusatainble considering the huge change they are going to undergo and the fact that almost every major EU institution said: no, you ain't getting automatically into the Union guys.
So how about you refrain from making this statements instead and do provide something actually productive to the debate?
I have been, certainly at least as productive as casting an entire separatist movement as a bunch of racists.
Oh man the strawman is real. I think you'd better properly read Galas' comment, where he says that xenophobia is A component, not THE component, which doesn't meant AT ALL he's saying the whole movement is racist.
Lord Kragan wrote: where he says that xenophobia is A component, not THE component
The "biggest component".
I have seen the exact same gak flung about during the Scottish Indyref and it seems to be replicated here. It was gak then and its highly likely to the gak here as well.
Robust debate is fine, it is afterall an emotive issue, but there is no need to start wheeling out propaganda.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
And I agree. I have agree with that from the beginning. I'm in no shape or form defending the Central Spanish Goverment because for me they are even worse. But theres more sides in this than supporting the central goverment no matter what or supporting the independists catalonian goverment no matter what.
Galas wrote: (And I'll say here that in Spain theres not only Catalan Nationalism. Theres a strong Spanish nationalism that is the same as the Catalan one but at the inverse, where they see Spain as a homogeiniced nation, based in their arbitrary definitions of whats is a good spanish, and they put all the Catalans as greedy, as seccecionists, traitors, etc...)
Guys, if you don't want to believe me, thats fine. I have tried to give your a historical background and the present ideology of the Catalonian Goverment, giving you sources, but if you don't want to believe me and say that I'm just calling them racist, thats fine. I'm just a random dude on the internet. You are totally free to look for your information and to make your own opinion, and I encourage you to do so.
But I'll just disagree about Nationalism not being xenophobic. As LordofHats said, I clearly separate what you call Civi Nationalism (Patriotism) from Nationalism. You can disagree, of course, and think otherwise, thats fine, just wanting to make my opinion clear.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL. And thats not what I have said. I have said that the ideology of the Catalonian Goverment is one based in a Xenophobic Nationalism, and the biggest part of the Independists narrative has been economical and nationalistic. And I'm gonna Keep my stance on that.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
Then you use Stalin's trick and arrest or kill everyone of any regional ethnicity and deport them to a random place in the rest of the country.
Or the US thing where the government steals or kills their children, raises them to worship the state, and then abandons them back in their homelands with no idea how to survive.
Both damage regional and cultural identities pretty well, and are only an act of genocide if your country is unimportant.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL.
In general I only reply to a single point in any post to prevent threads being nothing but giant walls of quotes and the 'Xenophobia' sentence was the most important as it is language that I have heard before in a similar incorrect context.
And I'm not talking in any point about the Scothis independence movement because I know 0 about it. But theres this idea, that every independence movement is similar or the same in his core, and that they are all equally legitimate. When it is not. Even if they have similarities, the independence of a region or nation doesn't has to be the same or even similar to the background that has birth the independence sentiment of other nation.
So when I say that one of the strongests narratives of the Catalonian pro-independence goverment is a xenophobic and nationalistic one, thats what I'm saying. I'm not extrapolating it to "all" independence movements ,not the Scothish one, not the Finland one, not the Indian one, because I have 0 idea about the background of those movements and their social and political peculiarities.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
Then you use Stalin's trick and arrest or kill everyone of any regional ethnicity and deport them to a random place in the rest of the country.
Or the US thing where the government steals or kills their children, raises them to worship the state, and then abandons them back in their homelands with no idea how to survive.
Both damage regional and cultural identities pretty well, and are only an act of genocide if your country is unimportant.
Spain does not have nuclear weapons though, so unlike Russia or the US, it is possible for them to commit genocide. As far as I can see, there is only 2 ways of succesfully dealing with an independence movement: The Scottish way: In which you engage in negotiations and talks with the independence movement, make compromises to keep them happy and steal their supporters away and if that's not enough even give them a fair referendum (which you of course will try to swing in your favour by reminding them of how horrible being independent is for the economy.).
And the Grozny way: In which you simply kill everyone who wants independence using lots of artillery and bombs (and everyone else who just so happens to be anywhere near someone wanting independence, like living in the same city).
The Scottish way is peaceful and democratic, so everyone will like you, but like all democratic things carries the risk that the side you do not want to win wins. The Grozny way involves lots of artillery and tanks and explosions and other cool stuff. It is also extremely effective in making sure the region does not go independent. However, it carries a risk that pictures of dead kids end up in the media and that everyone will hate you as a result (not the independence people though, they are dead).
Let us hope that Spain goes for the Scottish ways and starts some serious talks with the Catalans.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL.
In general I only reply to a single point in any post to prevent threads being nothing but giant walls of quotes and the 'Xenophobia' sentence was the most important as it is language that I have heard before in a similar incorrect context.
That is cherry picking. It is a fallacy and not conductive to a good discussion. If you want to have a polite, civilised discussion with people you will have to address all of their points, not just the ones you can use to strengthen your position or the ones you can turn into straw men. As Galas has found out, it usually leads to straw men and the whole discussion exaggerating and then focusing on something that is not actually part of the original discussion at all.
Seems Trumpishness has infected the area as well, with police saying the Union ralley was about 300k while organizers insist it was almost a million.
It would be hilarious if the police had stolen all the No votes.
That's old news. Independentists always claimed 1+ million attendees while the authorities usually shaved it down to a third too. Hard for the authorities to do otherwise in this case.
That is a constant here. In the "Diada" or independists Rallys, you have the central Goverment saying that they where something like 250k-300k people and the catalonian police and goverment saying that they where 1-2 million.
Personally, I tend to side with the numbers of the ones with more control and knowledge about that, in this kind of cases, the police.
Galas wrote: That is a constant here. In the "Diada" or independists Rallys, you have the central Goverment saying that they where something like 250k-300k people and the catalonian police and goverment saying that they where 1-2 million.
Personally, I tend to side with the numbers of the ones with more control and knowledge about that, in this kind of cases, the police.
Regardless of the 300k or million. A 300k person rally is still a fair number of people who want to protest a issue and act as Croy not just the larger percentage of non street believers.
This means there's a still large ernough movement that means Spain is well advised to talk it out like Scotland. Sure Sturgeon is annoying as hell at times and people Don t like her in some areas. But there is peace, and we did come to a ground that allowed the issue to tackled.
(modern political, independent, EU debates aside)
If Spain seriously meets them, let's them talk, both reach a deal things will end peacefully.
Galas wrote: I don't think so. Probably, it had some influence, of course, but the continuation of the Franco Regime was totally imposible, for the organization and international interests of the members of the Falange and other levels of the regime administration.
A sad time for Spain. But at least we can laugh at it!
No Germans volunteering to help provide airforce?
We not here yet.
If the Civil War did break out. Trump will send troops to protect the Royal Government of Spain...
and the 'Last Ruling Bourbon King'... a perfect puppet to his... and the Central Government victory over seccessionists will intimidate Calexit at home. Failure to prevent a successful seccession in Spain will sure to favor the Calexit movements.
LordofHats wrote: He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
Well that textbook clearly needs a new edition.
Well come on man. First off that Wiki article is tagged up the wazo with warnings like "misinterpreted citations," "previously unpublished" materials, and accusations of synthesis which tells me several things; this is either a very new idea, or a very fringe idea. Both men who are listed as having advocated it are dead by more than a century, which supports the fringe option given that both lived in the height of western nationalism and "civic nationalism" reads like a tautological shield term behind which people with unsavory or shoddy philosophy can hide. A visit to the talk page only worsens the situation cause people on it are either talking about which political parties are Civic Nationalist (listing most UK parties like SNP and UKIP, with the argument over the later really confirming my hypothesis that this is just shield term with no real substance behind it and an obscure one at that). The rest of the talk page amounts to accusations that the article constitutes "OR" (original research which Wikipedia doesn't allow) so basing your semantical arguments on this really weak article littered to the brim with obvious red flags says more about you than text books operating on classical politics.
That is cherry picking. It is a fallacy and not conductive to a good discussion. If you want to have a polite, civilised discussion with people you will have to address all of their points, not just the ones you can use to strengthen your position or the ones you can turn into straw men. As Galas has found out, it usually leads to straw men and the whole discussion exaggerating and then focusing on something that is not actually part of the original discussion at all.
Are Iron Captain and me sort of on the same page with this one? Cause like damn. If that's not a giant warning that something has gone wrong I'm not sure what is
That's old news. Independentists always claimed 1+ million attendees while the authorities usually shaved it down to a third too. Hard for the authorities to do otherwise in this case.
Lord Kragan wrote: So... it is fine when you do the accusations (though you at least had the decency of just "imply" it) but not when others do a faaaar milder version?
No. What I ACTUALLY said is that if you're going to make accusations of xenophobia, then you should give a citation. i.e. evidence to support your accusation. "Put up or shut up".
If you have photos of Scottish Nationalists doing Nazi salutes, then by all means post them.
It's interesting that 150 years ago nationalism meant the Italian mini-states or the German mini-states grouping into a proper country, and now it means regions of large states wanting to split off.
Brazil also is infected with a nationalism of several states in the south, who use the general idea of "the north is robbing us" to inform their enthusiasm.
I find it strikingly ironic that Garabaldi, who was a power behind Italian conglomerative nationalism in the 1860s, was also a power behind the failed (at the time) souther-Brazilian nationalism which has recently come back in strength.
Brazil also is infected with a nationalism of several states in the south, who use the general idea of "the north is robbing us" to inform their enthusiasm.
Lord Kragan wrote: So... it is fine when you do the accusations (though you at least had the decency of just "imply" it) but not when others do a faaaar milder version?
No. What I ACTUALLY said is that if you're going to make accusations of xenophobia, then you should give a citation. i.e. evidence to support your accusation. "Put up or shut up".
If you have photos of Scottish Nationalists doing Nazi salutes, then by all means post them.
Nobody is talking here about Scotthis Nationalist. Really guys, you are the ones that have brought in a thread about Catalonian independence the Scottish one.
And xenophobia is not linked with a left or right ideology. I could look for more videos, articles, rallys and speeches of Catalonian politicians and their xenophobic narrative agaisn't the rest of Spain if you like, but to be honest, I can't encounter ones with english subtitles. They are all in catalan or spanish.
And yeah, theres a good bunch of spanish far-right Nostalgic Franco-Lovers out there that in times like this, take advantage of the situation to proclame themselves "Protectors of Spanish Unity". Something that only works in favour of the independentists narrative, because they can pick the one Franquists flag between 100 Spanish normal ones and say "See, see!? Spain is a bunch of fascists!"
That is cherry picking. It is a fallacy and not conductive to a good discussion. If you want to have a polite, civilised discussion with people you will have to address all of their points, not just the ones you can use to strengthen your position or the ones you can turn into straw men.
Of course its cherry picking but given the constraints imposed by the layout of forums it is beneficial, it also ensures that posts are kept short. Its perfectly possible to have a civil and polite discussion, you just don't need to make a post full of quotes to do so.
As for the link is the first hit on google, how about the Oxford dictionary definition instead?
As I said already a desire for independence doesn't automatically equate with xenophobia or ignorance. Where is the strawman in that and I don't see why people are getting so irate about it either.
Pseudomonas has a point. Its also not conducive to a good discussion to post massive walls of text (Whirlwind for instance) that exhaust people's patience. Keep your posts concise and to the point.
Galas wrote: Something that only works in favour of the independentists narrative, because they can pick the one Franquists flag between 100 Spanish normal ones and say "See, see!? Spain is a bunch of fascists!"
Well, the fact the fascist flag is being waved by a police officer as he beats a 90 year old woman's face in for trying to vote while the other 100 stand around and try hard to pretend it's not happening might just be why...
As I said already a desire for independence doesn't automatically equate with xenophobia or ignorance.
Who said it did?
Where is the strawman in that and I don't see why people are getting so irate about it either.
I agree. I don't understand why the triad bout definitions started. I mean sure someone said "nationalist" and "xenophobic" in the same post but there was some reasons were given for why those conclusions were drawn. Reasons completely ignored. A cynical man might propose that the people jumping down someone's throat over word choice don't actually know anything about the big picture of politics in Spain, and are incapable of contributing to any civil or substantial discussion about it, but being the internet instead of shrugging and leaving or going off and doing some research said people just spout dictionary definitions and argue about that instead of the actual topic
Galas wrote: Something that only works in favour of the independentists narrative, because they can pick the one Franquists flag between 100 Spanish normal ones and say "See, see!? Spain is a bunch of fascists!"
Well, the fact the fascist flag is being waved by a police officer as he beats a 90 year old woman's face in for trying to vote while the other 100 stand around and try hard to pretend it's not happening might just be why...
I haven't seen the Police officer waving a fascists flag as he beats a 90 year old woman, but to be honest I'm not gonna say that it isn't possible because I'm aware that the Spanish Police has a very high percentage of nationalistic and in many case even Franquism supporters in their numbers.
As I said earlier, this is a case of two oligarchies seeding hate between the population for their personal political gains.
I'm not fan or defender of the actual goverment of Spain. Heck, I'm not even a supporter of the actual Spanish political system. But that doesn't makes me a supporter of independence. Because, the proposed independentists Catalonian goverment is exactly the same (And I'm not talking about "Omg both sides are equally bad), I'm saying that if you go and read their Constitution, just like Spain, they don't have the basic principles of a Democratic Republic. Representativeness and separation of powers.
Go, read the Catalonian Constitution, the judiciary power is literally under control of the executive power, just like it is in Spain. Not like it matters, the Catalonian Goverment has shown that they have no interest in respecting their own Constitution, just like no Spanish Goverment has respected our own constitution. Not like they should do it. Is a paper done in a office by a bunch of Franquists politicians.
The Spanish constitution is wet paper.
And thanks LordOfHats, you have expresed much better than me my own frustration about this conversation.
Galas wrote: The Spanish constitution is wet paper.
I've been looking over said Constitution (which isn't easy cause this thing is way more long winded than the comparatively brief US constitution), and the thing I've noticed is that the writers of the document seem to have assumed a lot more unity on the part of the Spanish population than there actually is. And by that I mean, the document seems to treat the ethnic divisions and historic regions of Spain as little more than convenient divisions of the polity, rather than major aspects of personal identity on the part of citizens. In my (very limited) experience, people in Spain take a lot from their regional identity even if they firmly believe in the unity of Spain, and that seems like an oversight when writing a document meant to govern people that someone ignored how important those identities are.
Galas wrote: The Spanish constitution is wet paper.
I've been looking over said Constitution (which isn't easy cause this thing is way more long winded than the comparatively brief US constitution), and the thing I've noticed is that the writers of the document seem to have assumed a lot more unity on the part of the Spanish population than there actually is. And by that I mean, the document seems to treat the ethnic divisions and historic regions of Spain as little more than convenient divisions of the polity, rather than major aspects of personal identity on the part of citizens. In my (very limited) experience, people in Spain take a lot from their regional identity even if they firmly believe in the unity of Spain, and that seems like an oversight when writing a document meant to govern people that someone ignored how important those identities are.
Yes no?
Yeah, thats one of the smallest problems with our Constituton. The biggest one is that it wasn't done by a constituent assembly. It was done by Franquist politicians after a general election based in a non-representative system, and then a referendum was made for the population with the choice between voting YES to this constitution (With 0 decision power over what was in that Constitution. We couldn't even chose between a Monarchy or a Republic), or voting NO, that in the moment was labeled as "If you vote NO, we go back to Franquism".
And yes, the territorial division of Spain is more like the Brittish one of the Middle East. It wasn't made based in historical regions, respecting the cultural and regional identity. It was made to create administrative duplicities so they had places to give power and economic privileges to all the politicians who accepted the transition instead of a democratic break from Franco's regime.
Did you know that after years and years of having the Constituion as something sacred, it was modified in the Summer of 2011 (The last time it was modified was in 1992)? The article 135 was modified and changed so the payment of the public debt was the FIRST AND INMUTABLE economical priority of the nation. Not the basic human needs of the citizens, or the nation structures. The payment of the external public debt.
The reform had the support of the majority parties, Partido Popular and Partido Socialista Obrero Español, as well as by Union of the Navarro People. Since the PSOE and PP jointly have more than 90% of deputies and senators in that legislature, and the treaty of reform by the ordinary process, a referendum was not necessary; nor was it requested by 10% of the representatives of one of the chambers within the time limit, which concluded on September 26, 2011
However, the other parties represented in the Cortes Generales were dissatisfied with the reform in which, according to them, they had not been called to the negotiation, which led them to accuse both parties of "breaking the constituent process".
The PP (Partido Popular/ Popular Party) and the PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español / Spanish Socialist Worker Party) the two that since the transition have been alternating one another in office (Basically our Republicans and Democrats) that can't NEVER agree in anything, voted in harmony to sell the economic sovereignty of Spain with night and treachery.
This is why I say that the Spanish constitution is wet paper. The problems of Spain, of this Independentists movements run much deeply than people normally assume. Every piece of the present Spanish political situation has his roots in the transition of 1975-1978. One needs to understand that transition to understand why Spain is the way it is today.
That's old news. Independentists always claimed 1+ million attendees while the authorities usually shaved it down to a third too. Hard for the authorities to do otherwise in this case.
It was an anti-Independence rally.
So? The point still stands, the authorities cut the number they (the guys who made the rally) claimed to a third.
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Pseudomonas has a point. Its also not conducive to a good discussion to post massive walls of text (Whirlwind for instance) that exhaust people's patience. Keep your posts concise and to the point.
No he hasn't. There's a difference between Whirlwinds rants that are entirely baseless by and large and actually formed, well spaced and structured commentary.
I don't understand why the triad bout definitions started.
Neither do I. The reason why the definition of nationalism needs to be updated though is Scottish independence, which is entirely nationalist (and called such consistently by all sides) yet is very much inclusive and civic. That is why I have an issue with calling nationalist xenophobic, as I have already stated.
Not to worry though, I have remembered by I stopped posting on politics boards.
Galas wrote: Yeah, thats one of the smallest problems with our Constituton. The biggest one is that it wasn't done by a constituent assembly.
I'd say those issues are innately related. The Franquists were hard core nationalists. It seems natural that they'd underestimate the significance of regional identity and background. leaving open holes for problems to fill later down the line. Certainly if the centralized political apparatus of Spain continues in that spirit, then the problem might perpetuate, producing say a situation where the Spanish state responds with a horribly heavy hand to an independence vote that could have been better handled with a much lighter touch.
So yeah it seems like the roots here go way back.
Did you know that after years and years of having the Constituion as something sacred, it was modified in the Summer of 2011 (The last time it was modified was in 1992)? The article 135 was modified and changed so the payment of the public debt was the FIRST AND INMUTABLE economical priority of the nation. Not the basic human needs of the citizens, or the nation structures. The payment of the external public debt.
Well my understanding is that Spain's debt issues coming out of the 2008 recessions were growing rapidly, and that the recovery within the country was less than ideal (particularly because Spain has always had some of the worst employment rates of Western European nations, an issue it had been making great strides in fixing until the recession basically demolished all progress). If I remember right lots of people were comparing Spain's economic outlook to Greece around that time with concerns that the later's problem would rapidly appear in the former, and in that light a response like that doesn't strike me as horribly unreasonable. A bit radical, but understandably so. Without doubt complete economic collapse is going to make the basic human needs of citizens and national structures even harder to meet.
jhe90 wrote:That's the German lefts fault.
They obviously got complacent and not dealt with what's fueling them.
Theres very real issues. And unpleasant or unpopular, you'll have to face them to end there threat. Or just ignore them.... Because that's gonna fail badly.
Nah, it's all of them, even the centre left and centre right parties have move to the right (especially when it comes to economic issues) so the left followed them. The issue is that nobody dares to offer actual leftist policies like raising the taxes a bit and improving the social safety net and services, instead we get austerity, some more austerity, and more cuts to social services. As long as the economy looks good nobody gives a feth about the population. Greece was the first example with a harsh shift to the right after the 2008 recession and nothing but austerity to help them. When all parties just kinda stumble around without offering the population any tangible support and only the far right says something that appeals to the population (not matter how wrong it is) the population will react to that and vote for right wing parties (either because the talking points appeal to them, somebody actually talks about caring for them, or as a protest). And the reaction from all other parties was to shift more to the right because that's what they think voters want.
But otherwise it's correct: All the parties got complacent, ignored the issues, and then were surprised when people didn't vote for them anymore. Then they react like they were entitled to those votes (see: Greece, Brexit, Trump, and the general rise in right wing parties all over the developed world).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Pseudomonas has a point. Its also not conducive to a good discussion to post massive walls of text (Whirlwind for instance) that exhaust people's patience. Keep your posts concise and to the point.
True, but that is what spoiler tags are for. Usually these massive walls of texts come to be when a discussion between 2 (or sometimes) more people drags on. You could put that whole debate into spoiler tags while keeping your post limited to just your arguments. And yeah, there is also a big difference between long 'wall-of-text' rants and a well structured argument presented in a good layout. Both may be long, but the last one is clearly readable and makes sense, while the first one does neither.
That is cherry picking. It is a fallacy and not conductive to a good discussion. If you want to have a polite, civilised discussion with people you will have to address all of their points, not just the ones you can use to strengthen your position or the ones you can turn into straw men. As Galas has found out, it usually leads to straw men and the whole discussion exaggerating and then focusing on something that is not actually part of the original discussion at all.
Are Iron Captain and me sort of on the same page with this one? Cause like damn. If that's not a giant warning that something has gone wrong I'm not sure what is
Soon you will be one with Mother Russia, comrade....
jhe90 wrote: Any atchual updates on the situation. The president. Aimed Monday now did he do anything?
Any independence claims?
Today is the day he'll make an address.
The update is that meanwhile every meaningful business with their legal address in Catalonia has upped sticks and moved to Madrid, Valencia, etc. Barcelona region used to be the 2nd with the highest number of companies in the IBEX-35 stock exchange is now left with a single one (Grifols, a pharma company, but they have warned they'll also move if the situation starts interfering with their business), their combined turnover is almost 40% of the Catalan GDP (though of course these are multinational companies, and a lot of it is generated outside Catalonia and Spain). This has brought to a halt to most independence-related activities, and a huge part of the independence supporters who were promised the dream of a Switzerland in the Med are now now looking at the Montréal effect:
Both Catalan major banks, all energy and infrastructure companies have left for quieter shores. It remains to be seen if it's for good, but they've sent a powerful message to indy supporters. Basically that all your jobs are on the line.
This has strained relations between the hastily assembled pro-indy coalition. The ruling party was Junts pel Sí, itself a coalition of the main pro-Indy parties:
- CiU, which itself previously split between the pro-indy Convergencia and anti-Indy Unió. Basically your run-of-the-mill centre-right tories with a vaguely traditionalist, pro-business, etc. line, kind of a tories.cat
- ERC, the labour equivalent of the above. Who at least have been pro-Indy the whole time while CiU only found support for independence when their leaders were caught with their hands on the public purse (google Pujol + corruption)
- IxC, generally to the left of ERC, euro-commies who were once within the IU umbrella but that also experienced a split when they embraced pro-indy ideas.
They accounted for slightly under 40% at the last elections.
Then there's the CUP, a quasi-anarchist anti-capitalist party who got something like 8% of the vote. Their closest parallel would be a hardline Sinn Fein, in that they don't run for state elections since they don't recognize the Spanish parliament.
You can imagine that the relationship between the CUP and the two most important parties that made up JxSi is now severely impacted by the decision of these companies to move out. Traditionally the supporters of CiU were the solid middle and upper-middle class with cushy jobs in those banks, insurance and infrastructure companies that have announced they're leaving or that they have plans for leaving, while the CUP is exactly where they wanted to be: in charge of the streets and leading a popular revolution against the evil plutocrats. Several ministers have say ok, maybe it's time to slow this time but the CUP have smelled blood and the word "traitors" has been uttered a few times.
Yesterday was the day originally stated for declaring independence, but the Supreme Court cancelled the Parliament session (since indy was on the menu), so Pres. Puigdemont will make a Parliamentary address today. All bets are off on what he'll say but very likely it will be a wishy-washy watered-down version of an indy declaration that would let them save face in front of their CUP partners (and hardline indy supporters) and at the same time stem the flow of companies making their way outside.
I definitely wouldn't like to be the speech writer for Puigdemont today.
LordofHats wrote:I've been looking over said Constitution (which isn't easy cause this thing is way more long winded than the comparatively brief US constitution), and the thing I've noticed is that the writers of the document seem to have assumed a lot more unity on the part of the Spanish population than there actually is. And by that I mean, the document seems to treat the ethnic divisions and historic regions of Spain as little more than convenient divisions of the polity, rather than major aspects of personal identity on the part of citizens. In my (very limited) experience, people in Spain take a lot from their regional identity even if they firmly believe in the unity of Spain, and that seems like an oversight when writing a document meant to govern people that someone ignored how important those identities are.
Yes no?
It depends. Spain constitution is a kind of middle ground between openly federal states (Germany, US, Russia) and centralised Jacobin states like France. Article 2 talks about the "unity of the nation" but at the same time says it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities contained within.
It's all a bit of arguing about names because in the real world Spanish "Autonomous Communities" have substantial devolved powers, in places higher than German Länder or UK devolved parliaments (though seemingly not as high as US States).
I definitely wouldn't like to be the speech writer for Puigdemont today.
Actually from Puigdemont's perspective there is an effective strategy. He should not declare UDI here and now.
In his shoes I would create a 'roadmap to independence' saying the vote was won, 90%, etc etc, Catalonia will be free and now we prepare a transition for independence in say 2020.
The intention is to trigger an overreaction from Madrid, threat of direct rule, or some such.
he more you take away a freedom the more people want it. If flatly denied then it becomes an imperative stronger than the economic argument.
In his shoes I would create a 'roadmap to independence' saying the vote was won, 90%, etc etc, Catalonia will be free and now we prepare a transition for independence in say 2020.
The intention is to trigger an overreaction from Madrid, threat of direct rule, or some such.
he more you take away a freedom the more people want it. If flatly denied then it becomes an imperative stronger than the economic argument.
Which is why the CUP has been gaining momentum, and preying on discontent voters from ERC and even CiU aren't going all in. The question is how big that demography is.
Because if in the best case scenario you're looking at a 35-45% pro-Indy voters of all kinds, and a good bunch of those genuinelly voted indy because they thought they would be better off.
There are thousands of indy voters working in the Banc Sabadell, Caixabanc, Aguas de Barcelona, Oryzon..... etc. According to a piece in today's 5 días:
Catalonia is no longer Spain's wealthiest region and has lost 0,33% of its GDP just on the HQ shifts. Now imagine what will happen when those companies start executing the actual contingency plans and tell these very independentist Catalans that their job has moved to Madrid, Zaragoza or Valencia.
I'm lucky enough to be a Catalan speaker (from a neighboring region), my wife is Catalan and I have my fair share of indy supporters in social media. The silence from the time the first companies started to announce their plans to get out has been deafening. You know the only ones that are still banging the independence drum? Those on the government dime. Teachers, admin staff, etc. who right or wrong believe their job is not on the line.
jhe90 wrote: Any atchual updates on the situation. The president. Aimed Monday now did he do anything?
Any independence claims?
Today is the day he'll make an address.
The update is that meanwhile every meaningful business with their legal address in Catalonia has upped sticks and moved to Madrid, Valencia, etc. Barcelona region used to be the 2nd with the highest number of companies in the IBEX-35 stock exchange is now left with a single one (Grifols, a pharma company, but they have warned they'll also move if the situation starts interfering with their business), their combined turnover is almost 40% of the Catalan GDP (though of course these are multinational companies, and a lot of it is generated outside Catalonia and Spain). This has brought to a halt to most independence-related activities, and a huge part of the independence supporters who were promised the dream of a Switzerland in the Med are now now looking at the Montréal effect:
Both Catalan major banks, all energy and infrastructure companies have left for quieter shores. It remains to be seen if it's for good, but they've sent a powerful message to indy supporters. Basically that all your jobs are on the line.
This has strained relations between the hastily assembled pro-indy coalition. The ruling party was Junts pel Sí, itself a coalition of the main pro-Indy parties:
- CiU, which itself previously split between the pro-indy Convergencia and anti-Indy Unió. Basically your run-of-the-mill centre-right tories with a vaguely traditionalist, pro-business, etc. line, kind of a tories.cat
- ERC, the labour equivalent of the above. Who at least have been pro-Indy the whole time while CiU only found support for independence when their leaders were caught with their hands on the public purse (google Pujol + corruption)
- IxC, generally to the left of ERC, euro-commies who were once within the IU umbrella but that also experienced a split when they embraced pro-indy ideas.
They accounted for slightly under 40% at the last elections.
Then there's the CUP, a quasi-anarchist anti-capitalist party who got something like 8% of the vote. Their closest parallel would be a hardline Sinn Fein, in that they don't run for state elections since they don't recognize the Spanish parliament.
You can imagine that the relationship between the CUP and the two most important parties that made up JxSi is now severely impacted by the decision of these companies to move out. Traditionally the supporters of CiU were the solid middle and upper-middle class with cushy jobs in those banks, insurance and infrastructure companies that have announced they're leaving or that they have plans for leaving, while the CUP is exactly where they wanted to be: in charge of the streets and leading a popular revolution against the evil plutocrats. Several ministers have say ok, maybe it's time to slow this time but the CUP have smelled blood and the word "traitors" has been uttered a few times.
Yesterday was the day originally stated for declaring independence, but the Supreme Court cancelled the Parliament session (since indy was on the menu), so Pres. Puigdemont will make a Parliamentary address today. All bets are off on what he'll say but very likely it will be a wishy-washy watered-down version of an indy declaration that would let them save face in front of their CUP partners (and hardline indy supporters) and at the same time stem the flow of companies making their way outside.
I definitely wouldn't like to be the speech writer for Puigdemont today.
LordofHats wrote:I've been looking over said Constitution (which isn't easy cause this thing is way more long winded than the comparatively brief US constitution), and the thing I've noticed is that the writers of the document seem to have assumed a lot more unity on the part of the Spanish population than there actually is. And by that I mean, the document seems to treat the ethnic divisions and historic regions of Spain as little more than convenient divisions of the polity, rather than major aspects of personal identity on the part of citizens. In my (very limited) experience, people in Spain take a lot from their regional identity even if they firmly believe in the unity of Spain, and that seems like an oversight when writing a document meant to govern people that someone ignored how important those identities are.
Yes no?
It depends. Spain constitution is a kind of middle ground between openly federal states (Germany, US, Russia) and centralised Jacobin states like France. Article 2 talks about the "unity of the nation" but at the same time says it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities contained within.
It's all a bit of arguing about names because in the real world Spanish "Autonomous Communities" have substantial devolved powers, in places higher than German Länder or UK devolved parliaments (though seemingly not as high as US States).
Ok, so he is forced to back down and fudge some kind of deal with Madrid.
well tthis seems the only way or his position could even be maintained, Maybe Madrid force a election and get him removed quietly as such. you can't act like a thug butt you can remove him safely by using the systeems of state against him.
The pressue of the companies, well yes that's ggoing to erdode the support. it comes down to peoples lives. jobs, a well orgnised campaign by Madrid friendly parties could work.
Lastly, though after 900 people got beaten up or near on i don't think that Spain would be advised to push too hard, more let things work against him. Direct force is only going to inflame things worse, and a coller, more chess minded strategy is far more effective.
I still think Spain has made a huge mistake in how they handled it And forced Catalonia away from Madrid for a good few years. it wwill be a slowr process to rebuild trust between the two parliments.
I definitely wouldn't like to be the speech writer for Puigdemont today.
Actually from Puigdemont's perspective there is an effective strategy. He should not declare UDI here and now.
In his shoes I would create a 'roadmap to independence' saying the vote was won, 90%, etc etc, Catalonia will be free and now we prepare a transition for independence in say 2020.
The intention is to trigger an overreaction from Madrid, threat of direct rule, or some such.
he more you take away a freedom the more people want it. If flatly denied then it becomes an imperative stronger than the economic argument.
I disagree entirely. The economic argument wins, and the illusion of freedom can go cry in a corner.
Catalan independence isn't going to create Happy Fun Fantabulous Land, and I'd hope people would be smart enough to realize it.
Not that freedom is an issue in this mess anyway. Having Catalan something something rather than Spain something something as the recognized tippy-top government has zero to do with freedom.
Tyran wrote: Brexit and Trump happened. Economic arguments are very easy to defeat by populism.
Populism that promised days of wine and roses vs project fear. But now the fear is real.
It's one thing to be told that the country will experience an economic downturn and another completely different thing that you or someone you love will be made redundant because the politicians you voted for didn't tell the whole story.
It's popcorn time anyway, Pres. Puigdemont makes the address in one minute. Edit pushed back one hour, the Indy camp are still negotiating with each other.
