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Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 13:30:56


Post by: Kanluwen





Can't wait for this.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 13:36:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Still can't get excited about this.

But, here's hoping it's more Wonder Woman than BvS in the end,


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 13:41:11


Post by: Paradigm


Ouch! That first shot... I thought I was over the end of BvS. No, no, still a punch right in the emotions...

Looking as awesome as expected though.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 16:07:52


Post by: creeping-deth87


This actually looks really fun. Might actually watch it in theaters.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 16:19:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Does anyone know why Aquaman is suddenly all Gangsta in his pronounciation?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 18:07:13


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone know why Aquaman is suddenly all Gangsta in his pronounciation?


Atlantis has a lower South side too ? I was hoping for a more Brave and Bold take on Aquaman, Mr Momoa can bring the snark as Ronan was a great character in a mehh show


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/08 18:59:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Jason Momoa is ace.

Really not sure about Aquaman.

Also, Cyborg still looks unfinished.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 03:06:09


Post by: sebster


DC sure have made sure we know this isn't like the sombre tone in Man of Steel and BvS. I don't know if it is the same as the preview linked above, but the one I saw had more jokes than the preview of Thor's latest.

What's interesting though is that they've still kept the big drama very serious feel. As a result it kind of feels... just kind of big in every way. Big jokes. Big drama. Big stars. Big money. Big studio that is going to spend every dollar to make sure this thing makes a lot of money and continues the franchise.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, either, but I'm not sure it was the lesson to be learned from why MoS and BvS were bad, and why WW was so good. WW wasn't just good because it had some laughs, it was good because it had a clean plot and a consistent tone, and a hero who showed some maturity and common sense. Well, at least that's what I thought the difference was. One the flip side the Avengers was all about children with superpowers acting like prats for 90 minutes before finally growing up in the last act, and people loved that movie.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 04:45:36


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 05:33:08


Post by: sebster


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Fun is subjective, of course. I didn't have fun, I found it annoying, but that isn't to say that the millions of people who found it great fun and loved that movie were wrong. My point was just that while I think MoS and BvS were harmed by having their leads act immaturely, I am happy to admit I might be wrong about that because the Avengers also had that immaturity but it didn't spot people loving that movie. So it might not have been the immaturity afterall that was the problem for the greater audience.

I don't know what 'fun not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun' means, but maybe that's the real difference?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 18:12:03


Post by: Voss


 sebster wrote:
DC sure have made sure we know this isn't like the sombre tone in Man of Steel and BvS. I don't know if it is the same as the preview linked above, but the one I saw had more jokes than the preview of Thor's latest.
Well, there was a joke at the end. And Ronan got a proverb wrong. But this kicks off with the same somber-but-completely-irrelevant tone that BvS dragged through the whole freaking movie.

What's interesting though is that they've still kept the big drama very serious feel. As a result it kind of feels... just kind of big in every way. Big jokes. Big drama. Big stars. Big money. Big studio that is going to spend every dollar to make sure this thing makes a lot of money and continues the franchise.

Eh. It mostly looks like a generic ensemble movie punctuated oddly with melodrama (with none of the characters actually in this movie- apparently Supes and Lois are going to be the pointless dead family flashbacks for this film), one-liners and mostly explosions. The jokes, drama, and the one 'star' look really small, and the CGI looks like it will drag on forever.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, either, but I'm not sure it was the lesson to be learned from why MoS and BvS were bad, and why WW was so good. WW wasn't just good because it had some laughs, it was good because it had a clean plot and a consistent tone, and a hero who showed some maturity and common sense.

This... doesn't look like it has any of that. The tone is all over the place (from high (or rather, excessive) melodrama to grimderp and randomly inserted laugh tracks), the 'maturity' is apparently just going to be the older heroes rolling their eyes at the kid heroes. Plot just seems to be a basic 'we must team up because aliens are invading for alien invasion reasons.'


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 20:21:34


Post by: gorgon


Voss wrote:
This... doesn't look like it has any of that. The tone is all over the place (from high (or rather, excessive) melodrama to grimderp and randomly inserted laugh tracks), the 'maturity' is apparently just going to be the older heroes rolling their eyes at the kid heroes. Plot just seems to be a basic 'we must team up because aliens are invading for alien invasion reasons.'


So pretty much the Avengers then, but possibly without 30 minutes spent on the Helicarrier engaging in banter with surprisingly little action or plot development.


It's certainly going to be interesting to see how this one turns out, given that the strengths of Snyder and Whedon are so wildly different. Their contributions may complement each other beautifully...or terribly. Or anywhere in between. *shrug*

I believe that for Whedon to have received a writing credit, he must have contributed at least 30% of the writing. So his part is substantial, and it seems clear enough that Snyder was probably already 'off' the movie to a large degree at the time he stepped down.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 20:24:12


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 sebster wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Fun is subjective, of course. I didn't have fun, I found it annoying, but that isn't to say that the millions of people who found it great fun and loved that movie were wrong. My point was just that while I think MoS and BvS were harmed by having their leads act immaturely, I am happy to admit I might be wrong about that because the Avengers also had that immaturity but it didn't spot people loving that movie. So it might not have been the immaturity afterall that was the problem for the greater audience.

I don't know what 'fun not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun' means, but maybe that's the real difference?


Avengers had immature characters in a lighthearted film that didn't take itself seriously. BVS had them in a dark film that was serious business. One works and the other doesn't.

By that quote, I mean that quippy humor is as natural and organic for the Snyderverse characters as stand up comedy was for Lt. Data. (I guess you could say I'm annoyed and he's a droid.). They come across as genuine as the kid whose hobbies involve memorizing sports injury statistics and sewing kittens together does when he invites you to a sleep over so you can watch Saturday Night Live, as people friends do. The trailer felt like the uncanny valley of buddy comedy.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 20:37:21


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Fun is subjective, of course. I didn't have fun, I found it annoying, but that isn't to say that the millions of people who found it great fun and loved that movie were wrong. My point was just that while I think MoS and BvS were harmed by having their leads act immaturely, I am happy to admit I might be wrong about that because the Avengers also had that immaturity but it didn't spot people loving that movie. So it might not have been the immaturity afterall that was the problem for the greater audience.

I don't know what 'fun not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun' means, but maybe that's the real difference?


Avengers had immature characters in a lighthearted film that didn't take itself seriously. BVS had them in a dark film that was serious business. One works and the other doesn't.

By that quote, I mean that quippy humor is as natural and organic for the Snyderverse characters as stand up comedy was for Lt. Data. (I guess you could say I'm annoyed and he's a droid.). They come across as genuine as the kid whose hobbies involve memorizing sports injury statistics and sewing kittens together does when he invites you to a sleep over so you can watch Saturday Night Live, as people friends do. The trailer felt like the uncanny valley of buddy comedy.


In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 21:09:56


Post by: Ouze


My money says this is going to be >20% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I'll almost certainly see it regardless, because I am part of the problem.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 21:34:08


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Ouze wrote:
My money says this is going to be >20% on Rotten Tomatoes.


Ooh... high bar there. 20% is like F4ntastic...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 22:09:50


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Fun is subjective, of course. I didn't have fun, I found it annoying, but that isn't to say that the millions of people who found it great fun and loved that movie were wrong. My point was just that while I think MoS and BvS were harmed by having their leads act immaturely, I am happy to admit I might be wrong about that because the Avengers also had that immaturity but it didn't spot people loving that movie. So it might not have been the immaturity afterall that was the problem for the greater audience.

I don't know what 'fun not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun' means, but maybe that's the real difference?


Avengers had immature characters in a lighthearted film that didn't take itself seriously. BVS had them in a dark film that was serious business. One works and the other doesn't.

By that quote, I mean that quippy humor is as natural and organic for the Snyderverse characters as stand up comedy was for Lt. Data. (I guess you could say I'm annoyed and he's a droid.). They come across as genuine as the kid whose hobbies involve memorizing sports injury statistics and sewing kittens together does when he invites you to a sleep over so you can watch Saturday Night Live, as people friends do. The trailer felt like the uncanny valley of buddy comedy.


In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


Au contraire. I am lowering my expectations in advance so that I might enjoy the movie when I see it.

BVS was a good start, but Wonder Woman might have given me too much hope.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/09 23:30:27


Post by: Necros


Looks good to me


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 01:01:33


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But Avengers was actually fun, not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun.


Fun is subjective, of course. I didn't have fun, I found it annoying, but that isn't to say that the millions of people who found it great fun and loved that movie were wrong. My point was just that while I think MoS and BvS were harmed by having their leads act immaturely, I am happy to admit I might be wrong about that because the Avengers also had that immaturity but it didn't spot people loving that movie. So it might not have been the immaturity afterall that was the problem for the greater audience.

I don't know what 'fun not "I fun now humans with human fun" fun' means, but maybe that's the real difference?


Avengers had immature characters in a lighthearted film that didn't take itself seriously. BVS had them in a dark film that was serious business. One works and the other doesn't.

By that quote, I mean that quippy humor is as natural and organic for the Snyderverse characters as stand up comedy was for Lt. Data. (I guess you could say I'm annoyed and he's a droid.). They come across as genuine as the kid whose hobbies involve memorizing sports injury statistics and sewing kittens together does when he invites you to a sleep over so you can watch Saturday Night Live, as people friends do. The trailer felt like the uncanny valley of buddy comedy.


In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


I think you've nailed it!

For a few here - and for a few more 'out there' too...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 01:38:34


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


As opposed to the ones here and out there who've decided they'll love it no matter how bad it actually is?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 12:53:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Very slight tangent.

Is Wonder Woman worth a punt? I didn't take to the other DC films, but have heard encouraging things about this 'un.

I can rent it off Amamamaamazon for about £3.49, or pick up the DVD for £10, and flog it on if needs be.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 13:01:06


Post by: Paradigm


Wonder Woman is one of the best superhero movies of all time, even leaving aside my DC fanboyism. On one hand, it is the fairly standard origin story narrative, but has such a superb script, such likeable charismatic leads in Gadot and (surprisingly) Chris Pine, and such a great sense of hope and heart to it that it's essentially one of the best versions of that narrative that's been done. It easily transcends the limitations of that classic origin story just on the strength of its characters and script, and it's a visual treat with some great action sequences as well (even it if leans a bit heavily on slo-mo at times).

It doesn't necessarily have the ambition of MoS as an origin, and it doesn't set out to deconstruct the character or make you ask any questions about the concept of the comic book superhero, it just tells a relatively simple story with a character that is very faithfully represented and of all DC's offerings so far, is the one that slips most easily into the heroic archetype.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 13:15:46


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


Au contraire. I am lowering my expectations in advance so that I might enjoy the movie when I see it.

BVS was a good start, but Wonder Woman might have given me too much hope.


Well...nothing wrong with keeping expectations measured. Like I said, it's hard to know how this one is going to come out, being a Frankenstein monster from two creators. Hopefully it reflects the best of both.

I suspect that WB is, in a way, eager to get JL behind them so they can focus on their upcoming solo films. I think a lot of those projects look promising, and that their new grand plan will be more successful for them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we get a Man of Steel 2 announcement not long after JL opens. That's not something they'd want to announce until the character is technically 'alive'.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 13:37:33


Post by: Mr Morden


Looks good - nice tune, good action, bit of comedy.

If they can maintain the standards of Wonder Woman it will be brilliant.

(just never ever bring that tedious, dismal travesty of Lex Luthor into a DC Film again - EVER)


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 14:32:07


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


Au contraire. I am lowering my expectations in advance so that I might enjoy the movie when I see it.

BVS was a good start, but Wonder Woman might have given me too much hope.


Well...nothing wrong with keeping expectations measured. Like I said, it's hard to know how this one is going to come out, being a Frankenstein monster from two creators. Hopefully it reflects the best of both.

I suspect that WB is, in a way, eager to get JL behind them so they can focus on their upcoming solo films. I think a lot of those projects look promising, and that their new grand plan will be more successful for them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we get a Man of Steel 2 announcement not long after JL opens. That's not something they'd want to announce until the character is technically 'alive'.


I hope so!

I mean, I have to believe Superman is in the JL movie, and I'd be bummed if he isn't.

But if he is in it, they've done an OK job of 'hiding' that fact, at least to the public in general.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 14:32:44


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Very slight tangent.

Is Wonder Woman worth a punt? I didn't take to the other DC films, but have heard encouraging things about this 'un.

I can rent it off Amamamaamazon for about £3.49, or pick up the DVD for £10, and flog it on if needs be.



It is definitely worth watching once. I don't want to get your hopes impossibly high, especially because the third act was weak, but WW was up there with Guardians of the Galaxy for me (although they are not the same type of movie). Gadot was as iconic as Wonder Woman as Reeves was as Superman. Pine was far better than I thought he could be. There is comedy, drama, action and romance. It's a great date movie, too.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 14:36:24


Post by: Paradigm


It's a given that he's coming back. The big question is when/how, and I applaud the trailers for not going near that; the reveal of Doomsday in the third (I think) BvS trailer was very premature and heavily telegraphed the film's final act, so I'm glad they've avoided that here. They pulled the same trick with WW pretty well, not spoiling the big bad, so I think they've learned their lesson.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 15:06:11


Post by: gorgon


Some folks are almost certainly screaming bloody murder about the marketing since it's a DC film, but IMO they've done a pretty good job managing the Superman presence. He hasn't been in a lot of the marketing, but he has been in some of it, just to remind people that he's coming back. This trailer is more of the same. And it wasn't like the end of BvS didn't tell everyone that he was coming back already.

Green Lantern is the big question IMO. Most signs point to no. However, "Unite the Seven" was a marketing line used both on a poster and apparently on the JL soundtrack album. The earlier trailer also had Steppenwolf mentioning 'no Lanterns', establishing for the first time that they are a presence in the DCEU.

If I had to place a bet, I'd say that a GL is in it. Which one? I'm gonna say 60% chance it's Hal Jordan, 30% John Stewart, and 10% Jessica Cruz (yes, really).

Personally, I think it'll be pretty cool if they do 'unite the seven' and keep the GL presence under wraps until the premiere.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 15:17:44


Post by: Paradigm


My guess is that if Lantern shows up (and to be honest, I doubt he will... If they'd cast anyone, I think we'd have heard at least rumours), it'll be Hal and he'll show up as either a final scene or post-credits scene, crashing to Earth with a 'Holy crap guys, Darkseid is coming' warning. Given that Lantern isn't due his own film until 2020 at the earliest, we could well see him in a JL sequel before his solo outing with the Corps.

On a side note, I'd love to see Jessica Cruz make an appearance down the line, but she's not someone you can start with, I don't think. She's a fantastic character but a terrible Lantern, at least initially, and I think we need to see a highly competent Lantern like Hal or John (please not Kyle! ) in a lead role before you can really make that contrast work. The real 'shame' with the Lanterns is that they have such a huge and largely self-contained mythos to draw from, mainly thanks to Geoff Johns' work, and most of that will fall by the wayside in the films... You could feasibly build a whole Lanterns cinematic universe without ever touching the rest of the DC universe, but unless we get 5+ different Lantern films I doubt we'll see more than the headline stuff. Hal, John, The Guardians, Sinestro, maybe some stuff with Parallax. The chances of seeing Guy or Jessica or Larfleez or Atrocitus are pretty low, I think.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 15:34:40


Post by: Frazzled


I already like the Flash guy and Mamoa.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 15:58:56


Post by: Compel


I'm thinking post credits Hal Jordan. With potential surprise Abin Sur turning up partway through the film, saving the league, then dying.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 16:03:35


Post by: gorgon


 Paradigm wrote:
My guess is that if Lantern shows up (and to be honest, I doubt he will... If they'd cast anyone, I think we'd have heard at least rumours), it'll be Hal and he'll show up as either a final scene or post-credits scene, crashing to Earth with a 'Holy crap guys, Darkseid is coming' warning. Given that Lantern isn't due his own film until 2020 at the earliest, we could well see him in a JL sequel before his solo outing with the Corps.

On a side note, I'd love to see Jessica Cruz make an appearance down the line, but she's not someone you can start with, I don't think. She's a fantastic character but a terrible Lantern, at least initially, and I think we need to see a highly competent Lantern like Hal or John (please not Kyle! ) in a lead role before you can really make that contrast work. The real 'shame' with the Lanterns is that they have such a huge and largely self-contained mythos to draw from, mainly thanks to Geoff Johns' work, and most of that will fall by the wayside in the films... You could feasibly build a whole Lanterns cinematic universe without ever touching the rest of the DC universe, but unless we get 5+ different Lantern films I doubt we'll see more than the headline stuff. Hal, John, The Guardians, Sinestro, maybe some stuff with Parallax. The chances of seeing Guy or Jessica or Larfleez or Atrocitus are pretty low, I think.


Well, don't forget that Geoff Johns is calling a lot of the shots now for the DCEU. The movies after JL will be director-driven, but on the other hand Johns isn't going to approve a director and vision that doesn't treat the GL stuff properly.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 16:19:56


Post by: Paradigm


Oh, I'm sure it'll be handled well, GL is probably the upcoming DC film I have the highest hope for as I just love the Lantern Corps source material and while I don't actually hate the last attempt, I think there's incredible potential for a film that's really epic in scope and with some amazing visuals. I just doubt they'll deviate much from the standard Green Lanterns Good, Sinestro Corps Bad storyline at first, which is not necessarily a bad thing but I'd really like to see some of the more 'obscure' stuff like the Red Lanterns or Guy Gardener or the Manhunters show up down the line, and I reckon I ought to temper my expectations a little; Let's be honest, no matter how much Johns is involved, we're not getting a live action Larfleez any time soon!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 16:41:07


Post by: Ratius


Another paint by numbers super hero flick. Ho hum, count me out


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 17:50:20


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I wouldn't be surprised if we see some alien Lantern show up so Steppenwolf can Worf him. Hopefully the next GL movie will be better than the last one.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 18:08:48


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Hopefully the next GL movie will be better than the last one.


The shame of that film is the things they got right. Reynolds was fine as Hal. Mark Strong was an excellent Sinestro. The Corps-related stuff was solid overall. I didn't even mind the CGI costumes -- they made them seem alive and energized. They just needed a better story.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 20:09:06


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Hopefully the next GL movie will be better than the last one.


The shame of that film is the things they got right. Reynolds was fine as Hal. Mark Strong was an excellent Sinestro. The Corps-related stuff was solid overall. I didn't even mind the CGI costumes -- they made them seem alive and energized. They just needed a better story.


I completely agree with all of that. They also needed to rethink the main villain.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 20:55:27


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Hopefully the next GL movie will be better than the last one.


The shame of that film is the things they got right. Reynolds was fine as Hal. Mark Strong was an excellent Sinestro. The Corps-related stuff was solid overall. I didn't even mind the CGI costumes -- they made them seem alive and energized. They just needed a better story.


I completely agree with all of that. They also needed to rethink the main villain.


No doubt. I think the cool thing at studios at the time was to save the iconic villain for the sequel, a la Batman Begins/Dark Knight. But you don't get to the sequel without a good villain to help drive the story. And GL's rogue's gallery isn't that strong outside of ringed villains.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/10 23:01:19


Post by: Elemental


Expectations aren't terribly high (I'm getting a slight Bay-Transformers vibe), but I hope I'll be pleasantly surprised.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 01:25:12


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


I think you've nailed it!


Given how badly-written the movies have been prior to WW, Bob would be forgiven for assuming JL will be pure gak. WW appears to be the exception that proves the rule.

In my case, I will wait for my local library to get their copy of JL on Blu-Ray, and watch it once the 30-day "rental" period is up. If it's great, awesome. If not, at least I didn't waste any of my hard-earned money on it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 07:24:33


Post by: AduroT


I would kind of love it if we got a Guy Gardner GL, just because everyone's so fixated on if it would be Hal or John.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 15:09:55


Post by: Alpharius


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
In other words, "I'm just going to decide to hate this no matter which direction it falls."


I think you've nailed it!


Given how badly-written the movies have been prior to WW, Bob would be forgiven for assuming JL will be pure gak. WW appears to be the exception that proves the rule.

In my case, I will wait for my local library to get their copy of JL on Blu-Ray, and watch it once the 30-day "rental" period is up. If it's great, awesome. If not, at least I didn't waste any of my hard-earned money on it.


Yeah, I don't believe.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 15:50:10


Post by: gorgon


 Elemental wrote:
Expectations aren't terribly high (I'm getting a slight Bay-Transformers vibe), but I hope I'll be pleasantly surprised.


Honestly, I don't think they're trying to make JL anything more than a fun popcorn flick. We'll see if it succeeds. But people shouldn't judge it on a different scale than the average Marvel film in that regard.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 16:16:01


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 gorgon wrote:
 Elemental wrote:
Expectations aren't terribly high (I'm getting a slight Bay-Transformers vibe), but I hope I'll be pleasantly surprised.


Honestly, I don't think they're trying to make JL anything more than a fun popcorn flick. We'll see if it succeeds. But people shouldn't judge it on a different scale than the average Marvel film in that regard.


Judging it on the same scale as the Marvel films is more likely to hurt JL, not help it.


I know you feel like the DC movies are underrated by some cabal of Marvel fanboys while Marvel films are inexplicably popular, but the reality is that Marvel movies are popular because lots of people see the quality in them and BVs was panned because lots of people saw the flaws in it. It's just that simple.

And yes, I really hope JL succeeds as a popcorn flick, because I would love to have some more fun DC hero films. However, past experience and the vibes I'm getting from the trailer are preparing me to expect the worst.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 16:25:57


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I don't think they're trying to make JL anything more than a fun popcorn flick.

We'll see if it succeeds. But people shouldn't judge it on a different scale than the average Marvel film in that regard.


The problem is that DC tends to fail on the "fun" part. The performances are flat to awful (the new Luthor), and the writing is beyond terrible. When I watched Suicide Squad, I was amazed by how aggressively bad it was - people worked very hard to make this a deliberately bad movie, a bad parody of what a movie should be. I fully expected it to be credited to Alan Smithee.

Considering overall quality and enjoyment of the average DC Warner film vs the average Marvel Studios film, one has to be generously grading on a curve. Within the smaller "threat to the world" movies, Thor: The Dark World compares very positively over Suicide Squad, to say nothing of Doctor Strange. When DC shows they can repeatedly execute at Marvel's level, then they'll be on the same scale.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 16:50:27


Post by: Mr Morden


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I don't think they're trying to make JL anything more than a fun popcorn flick.

We'll see if it succeeds. But people shouldn't judge it on a different scale than the average Marvel film in that regard.


The problem is that DC tends to fail on the "fun" part. The performances are flat to awful (the new Luthor), and the writing is beyond terrible. When I watched Suicide Squad, I was amazed by how aggressively bad it was - people worked very hard to make this a deliberately bad movie, a bad parody of what a movie should be. I fully expected it to be credited to Alan Smithee.

Considering overall quality and enjoyment of the average DC Warner film vs the average Marvel Studios film, one has to be generously grading on a curve. Within the smaller "threat to the world" movies, Thor: The Dark World compares very positively over Suicide Squad, to say nothing of Doctor Strange. When DC shows they can repeatedly execute at Marvel's level, then they'll be on the same scale.


Disagree to a certain extent - the problem with Suicide Squad was not the fun it was the plot - or lack of it - the first half is pretty good but then the plot fails and the pacing also goes all to hell.

Bats vs Sups again could have been great but they pulled off the miscasting of the Millenium with Lex - perhaps the worst performance I have ever suffered through in a film but also the plot was missing - they just went ERR so Batman fights Superman - do we need to write anything else? Nah guess not

Wonder Woman had all the class, style and finese of a Marvel film - it was a joy to watch - if they have learned their lessons - so will JLA.

Marvel also has had duds - Cap A 1 was poor (unlike the Sequal) in terms of plot and weak main villan and Ant Man / Dr Strange were only OK.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 16:53:21


Post by: Frazzled


Thor Dark World was boring. So was the Second Avengers, the Captain America films, and IM III (I liked IM II because of Mickeey Rorke). These are being held up as a high standard, yet are really meh on a Baysplosions level.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 17:08:24


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The problem is that DC tends to fail on the "fun" part. The performances are flat to awful (the new Luthor), and the writing is beyond terrible.


Disagree to a certain extent - the problem with Suicide Squad was not the fun it was the plot - or lack of it - the first half is pretty good but then the plot fails and the pacing also goes all to hell.

Bats vs Sups again could have been great but they pulled off the miscasting of the Millenium with Lex - perhaps the worst performance I have ever suffered through in a film but also the plot was missing - they just went ERR so Batman fights Superman - do we need to write anything else? Nah guess not


A poor plot with bad pacing - those are writing problems. The world's best actors, director, and producer can't beat a fundamentally bad script.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 17:56:21


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I know you feel like the DC movies are underrated by some cabal of Marvel fanboys while Marvel films are inexplicably popular, but the reality is that Marvel movies are popular because lots of people see the quality in them and BVs was panned because lots of people saw the flaws in it. It's just that simple.

And yes, I really hope JL succeeds as a popcorn flick, because I would love to have some more fun DC hero films. However, past experience and the vibes I'm getting from the trailer are preparing me to expect the worst.


To set the record straight:

I find much of the criticism of Man of Steel to be nearly inexplicable. If someone has a problem with Zod's death, fine. As a fan of the character for over 4 decades, I personally found the no-win scenario to be an interesting jab at the character's long, LONG history of solar-powered Get Out of Jail Free cards (and yes, that obviously includes Superman '78). But that's kind of an 'inside baseball' thing even for nerds. Still, I'll go to my grave saying that MoS was a well-crafted (not perfect, but well-crafted) film. The fact that it's rated lower than Superman Returns (bad acting, dumb story, little action, creepy undertones) on the aggregators shows you everything you need to know about why the aggregators are stupid.

BvS...I get, at least depending on the criticism we're talking about. The ultimate cut really helps the theatrical cut's significant story issues quite a bit, although then it becomes too long and weirdly light on action at 3 hours. The visuals are amazing, far surpassing anything we've ever seen in a superhero film. However, having those particular heroes (for example) roll around in a Fincher-esque grimy bathroom beating each other in the head with sinks is going to turn people off, even before you get to its other issues. Jay Baruchel said that someday people will look back on BvS as the most expensive indie film ever, and that's a great take on it. Snyder made the film HE wanted to make...pretty much everyone else's tastes be damned, and the needs of the studio and franchise be damned. Again, if you read between the lines, it isn't hard to tell that he was already 'off' JL when he stepped down over his personal tragedy.

SS looked like what it was. A film made according to one creative mind's vision, only to be chopped up and re-edited by a trailer company in an attempt to transform it into something it wasn't in the wake of BvS's reviews. FWIW, audiences did like it more than BvS. But I'm not going to tell you that it was a good movie.

Fair?


And Frazz has it right...there's mediocrity all over the MCU that gets too much handwave treatment. I was there opening night for Avengers. I used to be excited about the MCU films. Now...eh. I don't really care much about Infinity War, and definitely won't waste a movie night on Thor 3. It's gotten so formulaic that I know what I'm going to get. So why go?



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:00:32


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I know you feel like the DC movies are underrated by some cabal of Marvel fanboys while Marvel films are inexplicably popular, but the reality is that Marvel movies are popular because lots of people see the quality in them and BVs was panned because lots of people saw the flaws in it. It's just that simple.

And yes, I really hope JL succeeds as a popcorn flick, because I would love to have some more fun DC hero films. However, past experience and the vibes I'm getting from the trailer are preparing me to expect the worst.


To set the record straight:

I find much of the criticism of Man of Steel to be nearly inexplicable. If someone has a problem with Zod's death, fine. As a fan of the character for over 4 decades, I personally found the no-win scenario to be an interesting jab at the character's long, LONG history of solar-powered Get Out of Jail Free cards (and yes, that obviously includes Superman '78). But that's kind of an 'inside baseball' thing even for nerds. Still, I'll go to my grave saying that MoS was a well-crafted (not perfect, but well-crafted) film. The fact that it's rated lower than Superman Returns (bad acting, dumb story, little action, creepy undertones) on the aggregators shows you everything you need to know about why the aggregators are stupid.

BvS...I get, at least depending on the criticism we're talking about. The ultimate cut really helps the theatrical cut's significant story issues quite a bit, although then it becomes too long and weirdly light on action at 3 hours. The visuals are amazing, far surpassing anything we've ever seen in a superhero film. However, having those particular heroes (for example) roll around in a Fincher-esque grimy bathroom beating each other in the head with sinks is going to turn people off, even before you get to its other issues. Jay Baruchel said that someday people will look back on BvS as the most expensive indie film ever, and that's a great take on it. Snyder made the film HE wanted to make...pretty much everyone else's tastes be damned, and the needs of the studio and franchise be damned. Again, if you read between the lines, it isn't hard to tell that he was already 'off' JL when he stepped down over his personal tragedy.


I thought Man of Steel had a better 2nd half than the sheer drug induced nonsonse of the Kyrpton

Still not seeing how anything can justify the travesty that was the portrayal of Loopy Lex in BvS.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:13:55


Post by: gorgon


 Mr Morden wrote:
Still not seeing how anything can justify the travesty that was the portrayal of Loopy Lex in BvS.


Yeah, the choices that Eisenberg made are certainly questionable. Early on, I thought I knew where his performance was going -- public loopiness on the basketball court scene, but cold calculation during the private negotiation with the senator over Zod's body. But no, he went pretty much full loopy the rest of the film.

I thought maybe the Ultimate Cut would shed some light on it. Maybe the writing was simply so bad that Eisenberg didn't know what to do with the character, right? But the main improvement in the UC is that it makes Luthor's plan more visible and the following character reactions more sensible. I think maybe he just thought it was kid's stuff and decided to 'have fun with it' and go way over the top.

It's probably instructive to note that Kevin Spacey is a great actor, and he was terrible in Superman Returns as the same character because he decided to ham it up like he was Gene Hackman in 1978. *shrug*


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:19:16


Post by: Paradigm


I think with Lex you have to apply the same caveat as you do with Clark in MoS; we all know where these characters are going, but they're not there yet. Next time we see Lex, I expect a much more accurate portrayal. His confidence has been dented, his bravado pierced, and he's realised he's going to have to up his game and spend less time faffing about if he wants to bring down Superman and prove himself right. That scene at the end of BvS where he's shaved bald isn't just a nod to his comic counterpart, it's a metaphor for his transformation into that more recognisable character.

Give him a second outing in JL or a Superman sequel and I think people will find him a lot more familiar.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:22:02


Post by: Compel


But noone is justifying Loopy Lex in BvS.... So *shrug*.


On the other hand, there's what? 5 times more MCU films than DC right now and there's what, 3 worthwhile villains in the whole franchise (Not including Netflix).

On the other hand, that's all a bit "what-about-ey." Overall I think Justice League is going to be fine. It's not going to match the Avengers in the public conciousness but I think it's going to be a "solid" film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:22:54


Post by: LunarSol


Personally, I just don't really care for the Superman presented in Man of Steel at all. He comes across as a hodgepodge of attempts to make the character more complicated by stapling on other popular cliches at the cost of everything that makes the character stand out in the first place. It's not a particularly bad movie, but it doesn't really rate for me either.

I would absolutely adore to see Green Lantern done right but I don't see it ever happening. The problem with the property is that everything great about it is built on some heavy piles of garbage. I think the best way to pull it off would be a trilogy of:

1) Solo movie on Earth
2) Training Day in Space
3) Sinestro Corps War

The last movie really fails by trying to shove 1 & 2 in the same film and honestly, I cannot fathom a solo movie on earth that would fly. The only times GL has worked on earth are essentially when its been the battlefield for an alien attack, but at the same time, a lot of the earth stuff is what makes Hal a compelling character. Ultimately, I'm kind of afraid the real problem is just that GL isn't a character that people can really see as cool enough for mainstream appeal unfortunately.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:43:25


Post by: gorgon


 Compel wrote:
Overall I think Justice League is going to be fine. It's not going to match the Avengers in the public conciousness but I think it's going to be a "solid" film.


I think WB would be more than fine with that, as it'd allow them to gracefully turn the page and switch focus to the next phase of DCEU films. Which I think have a chance to be much better received.


@LunarSol -- One approach to GL would be to skip the origin story. Make it a 'requel' like Marvel's Incredible Hulk film was to the Ang Lee Hulk movie. It's not like his origin story is that involved or that his power is hard to explain. In fact, the rumors are that the GL film will be sort of a 'buddy cop' film with Hal Jordan and John Stewart, so they're probably going this way with it. One might be inclined to groan at the idea of 'Lethal Weapon in Space', but it'd allow them to keep the story in space with GLs doing proper GL space cop stuff, while giving plenty of opportunity for the characters to shine in their interactions with each other.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 18:54:45


Post by: LunarSol


Yeah, I just worry what you lose or how you have to structure the story without the origin. It's not like Spiderman where the public has a firm grasp on the character and doesn't need some explanation.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 19:01:49


Post by: Compel


This sort of leads me back to the idea of doing Abin Sur & the origin in a couple of scenes in Justice League.

Abin Sur showing up to help against bad guys, dying heroically. The ring flying off.

Post credit scene, have Hal Jordan find it. Then, the Green Lantern Corps film is a few years away, so actually set it a few years later.

Anything relevant you can have via flashback. After all, for all of BvS's many faults, this version of Batman's origin story was covered during the titles sequence and the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern film wasn't *that* long ago.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 19:06:17


Post by: gorgon


Could stage it as John being a fresh recruit under Hal's mentorship. So you get some exposition as Hal explains things to John, without spending a lot of time on Earth doing the full origin treatment.

Actually, that sounds even more like Men in Black than Lethal Weapon, LOL.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/11 20:14:47


Post by: JohnHwangDD


TBH, the easy "fix" for GL is to simply start with John Stewart. Or Gay Gardener.

And then, immediately move the story to Red Lanterns so we can have live-action Dex-Starr!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/10/12 02:39:38


Post by: Ahtman


Perhaps having Atrocitus in Injustice 2 will increase his profile enough to have him in a GL movie.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 10:36:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Finally watched Wonder Woman yesterday.

Well, it's definitely the best of the DC stable so far. Sadly, that's not saying much.

Plot was perfectly fine. Supporting actors were good. Gal Gadot however was as wooden as a very wooden thing made out of a wood by Gepetto, except without anyone bringing her to life. Her little speech during the final boss fight? Well, she says words. But it's not acting.

I also found her fight scenes oddly distracting. The whole 'stop dead at every blow' didn't work for me, and when she was up against Poor Stooges, it looked really fake.

I can absolutely see why others think highly of it, but the lead's lack of acting chops, and the dodgy effects ruined the spell for me.

That's not filling me with encouragement for the Justice League, anymore than the amateur looking posters.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 17:22:25


Post by: timetowaste85


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Finally watched Wonder Woman yesterday.

Well, it's definitely the best of the DC stable so far. Sadly, that's not saying much.

Plot was perfectly fine. Supporting actors were good. Gal Gadot however was as wooden as a very wooden thing made out of a wood by Gepetto, except without anyone bringing her to life. Her little speech during the final boss fight? Well, she says words. But it's not acting.

I also found her fight scenes oddly distracting. The whole 'stop dead at every blow' didn't work for me, and when she was up against Poor Stooges, it looked really fake.

I can absolutely see why others think highly of it, but the lead's lack of acting chops, and the dodgy effects ruined the spell for me.

That's not filling me with encouragement for the Justice League, anymore than the amateur looking posters.


Did we watch the same movie? WW was awesome!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 18:52:16


Post by: Compel


And amateur looking posters....?

I must say, that in itself is a *very* minority opinion.

The posters are heavily inspired by the work of Alex Ross, who is widely considered to be one of, if not the, greatest artists in comics.



His work in the graphic novel of "Kingdom Come" is seen as one of the all time greats in comics and the Justice League artwork pays homage to that perfectly.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:01:40


Post by: Alpharius


I'm still wanting to know - in a non-spoiler way if that's possible - if Superman will be returning to life in this movie and helping out the League.

I mean, all signs point to 'yes, of course' BUT...it is amazing that they've marketed this movie so far without much Superman at all!



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:04:27


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Finally watched Wonder Woman yesterday.

Well, it's definitely the best of the DC stable so far.

Gal Gadot however was as wooden as a very wooden thing made out of a wood by Gepetto, except without anyone bringing her to life.


I've not yet seen it. Is WW "better" than the MCU Hulk movie? The Ang Lee Hulk movie?

Gal Gadot is very pretty, looks "Amazon", but to expect her to be a RDJ or Batflec is unfair, I think.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:06:19


Post by: Compel


I think that's all the fallout from the Doomsday trailer in BVS kinda giving the whole plot away.

The film is just over 2 weeks away now and we're still wondering if a breathing Superman is in it. - That's some pretty good going. And, of course, there's no official signs (EG actors) of a Green Lantern either, whether that's Hal or Abin Sur, or someone else. Just a reference that they exist 'somewhere' in the universe...


The fact that Henry Cavill *is* in the film, as holograms, or in a dream sequence is really clever, as independent reports / lines of him being seen on the sets in costume, can just be explained by that...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:07:26


Post by: Alpharius


Yes, WW is better than Ang Lee's HULK.

It's an actual good Superhero Movie - for real!

Which is probably why the JUSTICE LEAGUE had to have some reshoots before release...

 Compel wrote:
I think that's all the fallout from the Doomsday trailer in BVS kinda giving the whole plot away.

The film is just over 2 weeks away now and we're still wondering if a breathing Superman is in it. - That's some pretty good going. And, of course, there's no official signs (EG actors) of a Green Lantern either, whether that's Hal or Abin Sur, or someone else. Just a reference that they exist 'somewhere' in the universe...


The fact that Henry Cavill *is* in the film, as holograms, or in a dream sequence is really clever, as independent reports / lines of him being seen on the sets in costume, can just be explained by that...


They've been amazingly cagey so far, agreed!

And I think a bunch of people (in China!) have already seen the film, and no one has spoiled it/leaked it yet!

I liked MoS and BvS, for all their flaws.

I'm a bit concerned though, that if we don't get HC's Superman back in this film, we might not see him again!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:09:19


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Finally watched Wonder Woman yesterday.

Well, it's definitely the best of the DC stable so far. Sadly, that's not saying much.

Plot was perfectly fine. Supporting actors were good. Gal Gadot however was as wooden as a very wooden thing made out of a wood by Gepetto, except without anyone bringing her to life. Her little speech during the final boss fight? Well, she says words. But it's not acting.

I also found her fight scenes oddly distracting. The whole 'stop dead at every blow' didn't work for me, and when she was up against Poor Stooges, it looked really fake.

I can absolutely see why others think highly of it, but the lead's lack of acting chops, and the dodgy effects ruined the spell for me.

That's not filling me with encouragement for the Justice League, anymore than the amateur looking posters.



Well, you can like or not like the film, but I haven't talked to a single person or read a single review bashing Gadot's performance like you just did. Not one. It was consistently rated between solid and great even among those who gave the film middling reviews. I think there were ample reasons to doubt her chops heading in, but her performance erased those doubts for apparently everyone but you. *shrug*

One can go into a showing of Citizen Kane, Casablanca, The Godfather, Wizard of Oz, etc. and absolutely hate it if one hate already made up your mind to hate it. Perhaps you should just skip JL, since you've already admitted that you know how you'll feel about it?



If we're taking bets on how JL will be reviewed by critics, put my money down on reviews being a little north of those of MoS. My bet is that it'll be crowdpleasing enough to make it to 'solid' territory, but too troubled with its history and development to make it to a truly good or great level.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:11:34


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:


If we're taking bets on how JL will be reviewed by critics, put my money down on reviews being a little north of those of MoS. My bet is that it'll be crowdpleasing enough to make it to 'solid' territory, but too troubled with its history and development to make it to a truly good or great level.



Definitely sounds about right.

I'm already reading articles about how it is 'troubling' that the review embargo goes right up until the day or so before release, and how this will mean it won't be well reviewed, and that it will not score high via RT as a result.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:20:45


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 gorgon wrote:
If we're taking bets on how JL will be reviewed by critics, put my money down on reviews being a little north of those of MoS. My bet is that it'll be crowdpleasing enough to make it to 'solid' territory, but too troubled with its history and development to make it to a truly good or great level.


Warner has a reviews embargo until Tuesday, less than 48 hours before the Thursday Midnight showings. That's not a sign of confidence. That's a tacit admission that the film is not good. It'll be reviewed better than BvS, but worse than MoS, and far worse than T:R.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:21:36


Post by: gorgon


 Alpharius wrote:
I'm still wanting to know - in a non-spoiler way if that's possible - if Superman will be returning to life in this movie and helping out the League.

I mean, all signs point to 'yes, of course' BUT...it is amazing that they've marketed this movie so far without much Superman at all!


Well, considering Supes or his logo has been in a fair amount of the marketing and most of the promotional items and toys -- and Henry Cavill has been traveling around doing the press tours -- yes, you can take that to the bank.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


There's some buzz going around about spoilers in the third act. Superman's return would seem to be the worst-kept secret ever, so it's probably something more than that. There was speculation about a surprise appearance by Hal Jordan, but that doesn't seem likely to me. *shrug* Jason Momoa also revealed that there's a end of credits scene, which IMO is a tactic WB should have been using all along to world-build while keeping it out of the movie proper (BvS, I'm looking at you).

Assuming JL gets reasonable reviews, I think we could hear an announcement about a proper MoS sequel in the near future too. Apparently Matthew Vaughn had talks with WB, and I'm guessing others did too. George Miller was also a name floating around, and he's already in the WB stable.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
If we're taking bets on how JL will be reviewed by critics, put my money down on reviews being a little north of those of MoS. My bet is that it'll be crowdpleasing enough to make it to 'solid' territory, but too troubled with its history and development to make it to a truly good or great level.


Warner has a reviews embargo until Tuesday, less than 48 hours before the Thursday Midnight showings. That's not a sign of confidence. That's a tacit admission that the film is not good. It'll be reviewed better than BvS, but worse than MoS, and far worse than T:R.


To be fair, the two bolded items are different things. It doesn't mean that they know it's a bad film; it means they aren't confident about reviews. WW had the same embargo until it became clear that reviews were going to be glowing. And they've been surprised before with MoS, which they thought was going to be a smash hit with critics and audiences. With BvS and SS...those I think they kinda knew.

There was also some Twitter talk going around from those who attended screenings that the third act has some big surprises. It is *possible* that's a factor as well. We'll see.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 19:38:03


Post by: JohnHwangDD


OK, I see the hair that you're splitting, but if Warner knew they had a good movie, they'd have confidence not to cut the embargo so tight.

With BvS and SS, it's almost impossible to not know those were bad films and have any credibility about working in Hollywood. Granted nobody wants to be the person who points out that the Emprah has no clothes... But come on, everybody obviously knew those were terrible movies. The only good thing is that they lowered the bar so much that WW and JL were guaranteed to look like masterpieces by comparison.

Turns out, 40 hours is one of the shortest windows to date. Estimate RT score is 33%...
http://mashable.com/2017/11/07/justice-league-embargo-critics-reviews-rotten-tomatoes/



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 20:21:13


Post by: Alpharius


I don't put a lot of stock - or concern - in that at all.

I mean, sure, I'm probably wrong, but I think it is more that WB has been 'burned' before by reviews and doesn't want it impacting that all too important opening weekend number.

We'll see.

They've put out some clunkers, to be sure, but I do also feel that they have actually been unfairly reviewed as well at times.

I'm expecting that I'll enjoy JL - early buzz out of China was very postivie, after all!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 20:56:51


Post by: kronk


We'll know next weekend, right?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 20:59:15


Post by: Alpharius


Hell yeah!

I have to travel for work the next week, so I'll definitely be seeing it opening weekend, but probably not until Sunday.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 20:59:57


Post by: Elemental


 Alpharius wrote:
Definitely sounds about right.

I'm already reading articles about how it is 'troubling' that the review embargo goes right up until the day or so before release, and how this will mean it won't be well reviewed, and that it will not score high via RT as a result.


We'll see. Overall, I haven't been a fan of the DC movies so far, but I'll just wait and see. If the reviews seem good, I'll go see it. Worst case scenario, I'll do something else instead of watching the movie, it's no skin off my back. Speculation either way doesn't seem very useful.

In threads like this, I always get a vibe from some posts that they're actively hoping for a movie to be bad, just so they get to be right on the internet.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:03:25


Post by: Alpharius


There's that element (!) to things, to be sure.

I'm fairly certain that I'll be entertained, and I'm 100% certain that I'll be seeing it in theaters!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:10:48


Post by: Compel


And at that... I just realised I had a chunk of flexitime built up...

Midnight showing... Hmm...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:19:11


Post by: Paradigm


I really wish I could see this opening day, last time I was looking forward to a forward to a film this much was probably The Force Awakens.... Sadly, I have a 3-hour lecture that afternoon. First thing the day after though, I'm there!

Somewhat tangentially relevant to this thread, Kevin Feige (MCU head honcho, for those not in the know) had this to say about the Marvel vs DC thing today:
http://www.slashfilm.com/mcu-vs-dceu/

“I think it’s ridiculous. I think movies are awesome and people should go out and support awesome movies, and I go support those movies and I thought Wonder Woman was awesome…I can’t wait to see what Geoff Johns and Joss [Whedon] and the gang has done with Justice League. I guess people like rivalries, I guess? I don’t know. But I’m seeing Geoff Johns in a couple weeks for dinner. We went to this [Richard] Donner event together. Dick’s Superman is still the best archetype of superhero films. So yeah, just go see cool movies. What are you fighting about?”

“There’s not really a rivalry. A rivalry is much more amongst the press, I think. Geoff Johns [at DC] is a very good friend of mine. We grew up together in the business…So, I applaud all the successes he has. And I really just look at it as a fan. When the movies perform well and are well-received, it’s good for us – which is why I’m always rooting for them.”




Words to heed, I think...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:22:31


Post by: Alpharius


Amen to that - and Exalted!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:32:15


Post by: gorgon


Yeah, good superhero films will lift all boats. Bad ones may lower all boats. It's important to note that plenty in the general audience don't really know the difference between DC films, Marvel films, Sony films with Marvel characters, Fox films with Marvel characters, etc.

I'll be at JL on Thursday night, but I'm keeping my expectations well under control. What I've heard of the soundtrack has an Avengers vibe in that indistinct heroic manner, and in accordance with that (and Whedon's heavy involvement) I'm expecting the film to be a simple brain candy flick that tries not to offend. LOL. It's an IMAX viewing, so the visuals should be good.

Honestly, I think WB mostly wants to get past JL and onto the upcoming solo films they have more faith in.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:44:04


Post by: Paradigm


If JL can be a fun, one-dimensional action movie that does well enough commercially and critically for DC to get back to more director-driven, unique entries without the fear of one poorly received movie crippling the franchise, then that's a massive win for both them and the audience. And to be honest, I think it will. On one hand, it's enough 'Avengers But With Different Folks' to please casual moviegoers, but it seems to be drawing heavily enough from some significant comic moments and arcs to appeal to more familiar DC fans.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 21:45:59


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, good superhero films will lift all boats. Bad ones may lower all boats. It's important to note that plenty in the general audience don't really know the difference between DC films, Marvel films, Sony films with Marvel characters, Fox films with Marvel characters, etc.

I'll be at JL on Thursday night, but I'm keeping my expectations well under control. What I've heard of the soundtrack has an Avengers vibe in that indistinct heroic manner, and in accordance with that (and Whedon's heavy involvement) I'm expecting the film to be a simple brain candy flick that tries not to offend. LOL. It's an IMAX viewing, so the visuals should be good.

Honestly, I think WB mostly wants to get past JL and onto the upcoming solo films they have more faith in.


Or a Justice League more in line with the post-WW expectations, without having to spend too much time/money/effort to de-Snyder it?

I still want another solo Superman movie!



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/09 22:21:13


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
Or a Justice League more in line with the post-WW expectations, without having to spend too much time/money/effort to de-Snyder it?

I still want another solo Superman movie!


Both of those issues rest squarely on the shoulders of Warner's movie execs, not Snyder. It's pretty obvious that Snyder was going to do a Superman Trilogy (Intro, Death, and Rebirth) that Warner changed into an "unfilmable" JL-lite for the 2nd movie.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 00:44:39


Post by: gorgon


Update - social media embargo is lifting tomorrow. Full review embargo still in place until Tuesday.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 18:59:15


Post by: gorgon


A Reddit group is tracking the social media reactions, and so far...definitely not bad. Mostly positive, with only one guy gakking on it so far. Seems like lots of praise for Gadot, Miller, and Momoa.

So it's not WW-level acclaim, but much, much better reactions than what BvS received.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 19:29:54


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Social media is dominated by True Fans - recall that the social media Buzz by DC's fans was overwhelmingly positive for both SS and BvS. The idea that DC's fans were going to dump over JL is basically zero.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 19:37:01


Post by: gorgon


What they're tracking are the comments of known reviewers and movie bloggers who attended critics' screenings, not average moviegoers who wouldn't have had a chance to see the film yet anyway.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 19:40:41


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Oh, OK. That might be somewhat helpful, then.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/10 20:30:47


Post by: gorgon


Most of the 'heavy hitting' professional critics probably won't chime in until the full review embargo lifts next week. So we'll see. WB isn't exactly out of the woods yet.

But so far there's a distinct lack of the WTF reactions that BvS got. There have also been repeated references to some surprises and the post-credit scene(s?). Those have me pretty curious, I have to admit.


Here's an article from Rotten Tomatoes on the buzz so far...

https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/justice-league-buzz-its-not-perfect-but-its-fun-and-entertaining/


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/11 06:50:03


Post by: Ouze


I have really low expections - like, 25% or lower on RT - but definitely will see this anyway. I thought Wonder Woman was terrific so that's a strong selling point for me.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/11 07:00:52


Post by: Just Tony


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Finally watched Wonder Woman yesterday.

Well, it's definitely the best of the DC stable so far. Sadly, that's not saying much.

Plot was perfectly fine. Supporting actors were good. Gal Gadot however was as wooden as a very wooden thing made out of a wood by Gepetto, except without anyone bringing her to life. Her little speech during the final boss fight? Well, she says words. But it's not acting.

I also found her fight scenes oddly distracting. The whole 'stop dead at every blow' didn't work for me, and when she was up against Poor Stooges, it looked really fake.

I can absolutely see why others think highly of it, but the lead's lack of acting chops, and the dodgy effects ruined the spell for me.

That's not filling me with encouragement for the Justice League, anymore than the amateur looking posters.


Me personally, I would have cast Alexandra Daddario as Wonder Woman. Sadly enough, time has defeated my dream of seeing Michael Weather as Hal Jordan.


I am actually looking forward to this more than I have any of the last few Marvel movies. DC has always been my favorite stomping ground.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 18:23:24


Post by: kronk




Not perfect but fun and entertaining is exactly how I would describe Thor: Ragnarok.

I went in expecting a bit of silliness and action and came away pleasantly surprised. I'd be OK with JL fitting a similar mold.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 18:25:39


Post by: Alpharius


...I'm hoping for that plus Superman being in at least the last 25% of the movie, and maybe a Green Lantern and/or Shazam end credits scene...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 18:34:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Eric Davis wrote:"Justice League is better than Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad"


As expected, JL steps over the low hurdle, but it's not obviously good, or they'd be saying it's like WW.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 18:56:16


Post by: Alpharius


...says that one guy.

J.H.D.D. - Confirmation bias?

Are you looking/wanting/hoping that JL is a bomb for some reason?

I'm with KKevin Feige - I want *all* SF/super-hero stuff to be good!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 19:04:48


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


He could just be keeping his expectations low.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 20:10:40


Post by: LunarSol


I've heard largely, "the movie is a mess but the cast does a great job". I'm very curious to see what comes out of the review embargo, but it sounds like at worst its great characters looking for a better sequel and worth giving a chance.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 20:40:11


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
...says that one guy.

J.H.D.D. - Confirmation bias?

Are you looking/wanting/hoping that JL is a bomb for some reason?

I'm with KKevin Feige - I want *all* SF/super-hero stuff to be good!


I see mixed comments, so I'm guessing it's OK. Not terrible, not great.

Given Warner's history with BvS and SS, "not terrible" is actually "good" for a DC film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 20:54:10


Post by: Alpharius


Touche!

I'll admit to being happy if it manages to even be 'not terrible' and I'll be positively overjoyed if it can be classified as 'good'!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 21:58:40


Post by: gorgon


Truthfully, there isn't a lot of room in the 'team-up' movie for complicated narratives and complex villains. Too much time is necessarily taken up with the characters and their interactions. Look at Avengers. Even though Loki is still the best villain the MCU has to offer, his plan in that movie makes little sense, and this is actually acknowledged *in the script* when Loki and Stark have their conversation in the penthouse.

The early buzz seems to be positive for the characters. If they managed to get that stuff in a good place, they will have gotten at least the most important thing right. It seems like WB also tried to double-down hard on 'crowdpleasing', and if they achieve that, that's important too just to get some more positivity going toward these films.

I'm sure Steppenwolf won't be a satisfying villain just because he was only ever meant to be the herald of you-know-who for the Part 2 of JL that now probably isn't happening. There's a major course correction being made here, and things were bound to get a little sloppy.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 22:11:13


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 gorgon wrote:
Look at Avengers. Even though Loki is still the best villain the MCU has to offer, his plan in that movie makes little sense, and this is actually acknowledged *in the script* when Loki and Stark have their conversation in the penthouse.


One might argue that Hela is a better villain.

Me, I can't get past "Steppenwolf" as the villain name. I keep snickering, and thinking "Born to be wild!"


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/13 22:25:52


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 LunarSol wrote:
I've heard largely, "the movie is a mess but the cast does a great job". I'm very curious to see what comes out of the review embargo, but it sounds like at worst its great characters looking for a better sequel and worth giving a chance.


I'd be happy with that. Some of the best parts of good films are just characters hanging out, reacting to each other.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 11:55:05


Post by: Mr Morden


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I've heard largely, "the movie is a mess but the cast does a great job". I'm very curious to see what comes out of the review embargo, but it sounds like at worst its great characters looking for a better sequel and worth giving a chance.


I'd be happy with that. Some of the best parts of good films are just characters hanging out, reacting to each other.


Agreed - they even tried to do some of that in Suicide Squad - but just at the wrong time and so it messed with the pacing and plot (well what there was of it).

Am still excited to see JLA after Wonder Woman being so great.... except - oh god just rad that Jesse Eisenberg is going to be polluting the movie with his "interpretation" of Loopy Lex the Joker wannabe- that's a bummer.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 13:25:22


Post by: Alpharius


 Mr Morden wrote:


Am still excited to see JLA after Wonder Woman being so great.... except - oh god just rad that Jesse Eisenberg is going to be polluting the movie with his "interpretation" of Loopy Lex the Joker wannabe- that's a bummer.


1) Just how old are you?!? You think Jesse Eisenberg's Lex was...rad?!?

2) I haven't read that LEx is in JL at all - where are you seeing that?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 14:49:01


Post by: gorgon


Well, the advance screenings have happened, and there are spoilers aplenty out there now, folks. I came across a few without really meaning to, so I'll probably be going semi-'dark' now until Thursday.

Re: Lex, all I'll say is that Morden shouldn't be too concerned.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 20:49:55


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
Touche!

I'll admit to being happy if it manages to even be 'not terrible' and I'll be positively overjoyed if it can be classified as 'good'!


I think you'll be happy.

Interestingly, RT is embargoing the aggregate rating for JL. That's strange, but I guess they don't want the number to be skewed by the first, or whipsawing around.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 21:33:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Where are the reviews? It’s out in the UK on Friday, but no reviews?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 22:04:54


Post by: Alpharius


Tonight - I believe they start to drop...late tonight.

Either that or very early in the morning...tomorrow!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 22:09:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I really hope the early rumblings prove more than ‘well, it’s better than the others’.

Not much of a D.C. fan, but Marvel need a decent competitor to stave off complacency. Then everyone wins.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 22:46:46


Post by: LunarSol


I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 23:14:57


Post by: Compel


One of the reviews I read said:

The plot is pretty messy but the cast are *amazing* together.

Additionally, the film might actually be a little too... short. The film goes forward at an incredibly fast pace with little pause for breath, sometimes maybe when it'd be better to pause.

Overall, the film is very reminiscent of an episode of the DCAU Justice League cartoon.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 23:19:45


Post by: Mr Morden


 Alpharius wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:


Am still excited to see JLA after Wonder Woman being so great.... except - oh god just rad that Jesse Eisenberg is going to be polluting the movie with his "interpretation" of Loopy Lex the Joker wannabe- that's a bummer.


1) Just how old are you?!? You think Jesse Eisenberg's Lex was...rad?!?

2) I haven't read that LEx is in JL at all - where are you seeing that?


Wikipedia entry on JLA

In May 2016, Jeremy Irons confirmed he will appear as Alfred Pennyworth.[10] That same month, Jesse Eisenberg stated that he would reprise his role as Lex Luthor, and in June 2016, he confirmed in an interview with Shortlist magazine of his return.[81][82] In July 2016,


Hopefully he has been cut

Oh and I am very old sadly


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/14 23:21:41


Post by: Paradigm


 Compel wrote:
One of the reviews I read said:

The plot is pretty messy but the cast are *amazing* together.

Additionally, the film might actually be a little too... short. The film goes forward at an incredibly fast pace with little pause for breath, sometimes maybe when it'd be better to pause.

Overall, the film is very reminiscent of an episode of the DCAU Justice League cartoon.


Sounds good. If they've captured the feel of the old animated stuff then that's pretty much exactly what I want from it. At it's best that show is exhilarating, epic and full of heart and humanity, and a film along those lines is just what the DCEU needs right now.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 00:41:56


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid".


... and Doomsday.

Otherwise, it's Injustice League / dark mirror versions.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 00:57:48


Post by: Compel


Brainiac has been popular as a Justice League villain too when you have him fully resourced. - EG when he has a fleet.

Of course, there's the Legion of Doom as well.

The thing is, the New Gods are just a great set of characters, it'd be daft not to make us of them.

Another option, that Legends of Super Flarrow looks like they're going to approach at some point is Thanagar as the villains, ala "Justice League: Starcrossed."

Trigon and his demons are another good option, though the Titans need to be introduced first likely.

Then you've got the classic things of just: Lex Luthor, Black Adam, Maxwell Lord or Vandal Savage do a really ridiculously grand scale plan that requires the entire league to stop.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 01:19:30


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I've seen the CW show. Vandal Savage (almost as badly named as "Steppenwolf") can be stopped by a ragtag bunch of C-listers, so Superman would be overkill to defeat him.

Trygon is awesome, only because he's Raven's misunderstood dad.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 01:51:33


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


I'm surprised that any DC fan would claim that. The JL is widely acknowledged to have a *very rich* rogue's gallery of its own beyond the nemeses of the individual heroes -- Starro, Kanjar Ro, Felix Faust, Royal Flush Gang, Crime Syndicate, Doctor Destiny, The Key, Amazo, Vandal Savage, etc. It's really good for a team concept, and a better RG than certain individual members have, including GL and WW.

And any of those villains would be far more iconic for the JL's first film outing. But again, this movie represents plans gone awry, and so we're left with the appetizer without the main course. *shrug*

I don't expect very good reviews at this point, but I'm going on Thursday and will decide for myself.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 04:53:51


Post by: sebster


 Mr Morden wrote:
In May 2016, Jeremy Irons confirmed he will appear as Alfred Pennyworth.[10] That same month, Jesse Eisenberg stated that he would reprise his role as Lex Luthor, and in June 2016, he confirmed in an interview with Shortlist magazine of his return.[81][82] In July 2016,


Hopefully he has been cut


It will likely be like Michael Shannon (Zod) in BvS - a small cameo that gives a link to the previous movie. Shannon was a corpse, I guess Eisenberg will be in his prison cell, dropping some exposition about what is coming.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 08:03:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Or they’ll have JL break Lex out so he can resurrect Supes.

Remember....Zak Snyder. Nothing is too daft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two reviews so far.

Forbes - enthusiastic.

Telegraph - caustic.

I shall await Den of Geek.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 09:51:25


Post by: Paradigm


 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


I'm surprised that any DC fan would claim that. The JL is widely acknowledged to have a *very rich* rogue's gallery of its own beyond the nemeses of the individual heroes -- Starro, Kanjar Ro, Felix Faust, Royal Flush Gang, Crime Syndicate, Doctor Destiny, The Key, Amazo, Vandal Savage, etc. It's really good for a team concept, and a better RG than certain individual members have, including GL and WW.

And any of those villains would be far more iconic for the JL's first film outing. But again, this movie represents plans gone awry, and so we're left with the appetizer without the main course. *shrug*

I don't expect very good reviews at this point, but I'm going on Thursday and will decide for myself.


I fully expect we'll get a JL2 with Darkseid in a few years, even if it's not until about 2020. Too much work has gone into setting that up to ignore it, and it's the logical choice for a sequel which I'm confident will happen (if they're willing to invest in a Suicide Squad 2 after the reception that got, JL2 has to be on the cards unless this totally bombs). Admittedly though, while I do like Darkseid, I do feel they should have just opened with him then gone on to something like the Crime Syndicate or the Legion of Doom (properly, not the mishmash gang of villains Legends of Tomorrow did) in a second film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 14:33:20


Post by: gorgon


Well, remember that this film was supposed to be part 1 of a 2-part story, presumably with Darkseid showing up at the end in a cliffhanger. And even though the revised plan ends up on a weird note with Steppenwolf as the big bad, I have a hard time blaming the studio's instincts. I'm not sure that a cliffhanger -- probably involving an evil Superman -- would have played well to audiences coming off BvS. I'm not a Snyder hater, but it's clear that audiences just weren't responding to him the way WB hoped.

Looks like MC and RT are coming in right around the 50 mark. Sounds like it'll be crowdpleasing though, and probably a little kid-friendlier than BvS. That's probably an acceptable result for WB. I saw some people asking why they didn't push it back and spend more time working on some things, but it seems clear to me that WB is eager to move on to DCEU 2.0 and some of these solo films they have more confidence in.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 14:58:09


Post by: LunarSol


 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


I'm surprised that any DC fan would claim that. The JL is widely acknowledged to have a *very rich* rogue's gallery of its own beyond the nemeses of the individual heroes -- Starro, Kanjar Ro, Felix Faust, Royal Flush Gang, Crime Syndicate, Doctor Destiny, The Key, Amazo, Vandal Savage, etc. It's really good for a team concept, and a better RG than certain individual members have, including GL and WW.

And any of those villains would be far more iconic for the JL's first film outing. But again, this movie represents plans gone awry, and so we're left with the appetizer without the main course. *shrug*

I don't expect very good reviews at this point, but I'm going on Thursday and will decide for myself.


Of that list, the only ones that stand out to me as amazing characters instead of fun concepts are Vandal Savage and the Crime Syndicate (the latter of which I only really found a love for in Forever Evil as a way to really nail Lex as a character). I like the Royal Flush Gang well enough, but it takes a lot to make them a league worthy villain group. In fairness, I'm not overly fond of the Avenger villains either, but Marvel has done well with each of them so its really up to the translation.

I guess to me its just that DC's best villains don't really demand the League as foils. Sinestro, Black Adam, Lex, the Rogues and plenty of others are just fantastic characters I'd love to see in films, but none of the stories I love them for are League stories.... except of course Lex as the legit president of the US, which would be a particularly hilarious film to do right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Well, remember that this film was supposed to be part 1 of a 2-part story, presumably with Darkseid showing up at the end in a cliffhanger. And even though the revised plan ends up on a weird note with Steppenwolf as the big bad, I have a hard time blaming the studio's instincts. I'm not sure that a cliffhanger -- probably involving an evil Superman -- would have played well to audiences coming off BvS. I'm not a Snyder hater, but it's clear that audiences just weren't responding to him the way WB hoped.


When I saw Batman's evil Superman future I assumed they were going down the route of the "Legacy" episodes of the animated series. Could it have worked? Maybe? Honestly, the biggest problem with it is the strongest character ideas from it are kind of redundant with the whole "world fears Superman" angle that Man of Steel launched everything with in the first place.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 15:09:27


Post by: Paradigm


 LunarSol wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


I'm surprised that any DC fan would claim that. The JL is widely acknowledged to have a *very rich* rogue's gallery of its own beyond the nemeses of the individual heroes -- Starro, Kanjar Ro, Felix Faust, Royal Flush Gang, Crime Syndicate, Doctor Destiny, The Key, Amazo, Vandal Savage, etc. It's really good for a team concept, and a better RG than certain individual members have, including GL and WW.

And any of those villains would be far more iconic for the JL's first film outing. But again, this movie represents plans gone awry, and so we're left with the appetizer without the main course. *shrug*

I don't expect very good reviews at this point, but I'm going on Thursday and will decide for myself.


Of that list, the only ones that stand out to me as amazing characters instead of fun concepts are Vandal Savage and the Crime Syndicate (the latter of which I only really found a love for in Forever Evil as a way to really nail Lex as a character). I like the Royal Flush Gang well enough, but it takes a lot to make them a league worthy villain group. In fairness, I'm not overly fond of the Avenger villains either, but Marvel has done well with each of them so its really up to the translation.

I guess to me its just that DC's best villains don't really demand the League as foils. Sinestro, Black Adam, Lex, the Rogues and plenty of others are just fantastic characters I'd love to see in films, but none of the stories I love them for are League stories.... except of course Lex as the legit president of the US, which would be a particularly hilarious film to do right now.



That's where something akin to the Legion of Doom or Injustice League comes in. After a few solo movies all the major villains have taken a beating, and someone (maybe a more mature and focused, less deranged Lex) brings them together to bring down their mutual enemies. I could really go for a film that pits the League against Lex, Sinestro, Adam, Reverse Flash, Ares/WW's second villain, maybe even Joker as a wild card. I can't believe that nearly 10 years into the Cinematic Universe craze, we still haven't seen anyone do a real villain team (I guess the closest was the Horsemen in X-men Apocalypse). Suicide Squad doesn't count because that film really missed the point of them being villains, they basically act like edgy heroes for most of it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 15:15:02


Post by: LunarSol


Yeah, if there's anyone that SHOULD do a villain teamup movie its DC. The problem with that is just that to pull it off, you've got to have the patience and vision to sell the audience on all the villain characters individually in their own films to establish their connection with the characters. I really don't see WB having the chops to pull that off. I suspect if it ever happens, it will first be in the form of a Sinister Six movie, but even that hasn't ever found its footing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 15:37:57


Post by: Alpharius


Reviews are decidedly mixed, and all over the place.

From the 2 or 3 that I trust, it looks to be a solid C+ to maybe a B-.

I'll take it!

I'm seeing it early Friday - and I'm now actively avoiding most things JL so as to avoid spoilers!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 17:01:20


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Well, remember that this film was supposed to be part 1 of a 2-part story, presumably with Darkseid showing up at the end in a cliffhanger. And even though the revised plan ends up on a weird note with Steppenwolf as the big bad, I have a hard time blaming the studio's instincts. I'm not sure that a cliffhanger -- probably involving an evil Superman -- would have played well to audiences coming off BvS. I'm not a Snyder hater, but it's clear that audiences just weren't responding to him the way WB hoped.


When I saw Batman's evil Superman future I assumed they were going down the route of the "Legacy" episodes of the animated series. Could it have worked? Maybe? Honestly, the biggest problem with it is the strongest character ideas from it are kind of redundant with the whole "world fears Superman" angle that Man of Steel launched everything with in the first place.


I think the inspiration was more from Injustice...you can even see that in some of the costumes. But while that's a very popular franchise, critics and audiences don't seem to want those kinds of themes on the big screen. *shrug*

You're right that it would have felt like doubling down on 'fearing Superman'. I don't think MoS is *anywhere near* as dark or depressing as people claim, but BvS definitely took the franchise there at a time they probably just needed to push off from MoS with a solid sequel. Batman Begins wasn't universally acclaimed either, but it broke the eggs that needed to be broken and set up a great film in TDK.

The fact that MoS still doesn't have a proper sequel lined up is kinda ridiculous. That suggests WB is being far, far too sensitive to criticism, even though they probably made some financially correct decisions in moving away from Snyder's vision. Cripes, there's no good reason that Hal Jordan isn't in the JL movie other WB still feeling burned by the Reynolds film. They could have moved on from that and just given the character a soft reboot with a different actor...audiences would understand.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 17:35:15


Post by: reds8n




.... " do you bleed ?!"



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:07:21


Post by: timetowaste85


 LunarSol wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I'm a huge DC fan overall, but I've never been a huge fan of the League itself. There just aren't enough villains worthy of throwing the big 7 into, so pretty much all of their memorable depictions are "something, something Darkseid". I think the League as a background concept is super important though, as the 1 on 1 pairings of these characters have produced some of the strongest moments for DC by leaning on the extensive history these characters share.


I'm surprised that any DC fan would claim that. The JL is widely acknowledged to have a *very rich* rogue's gallery of its own beyond the nemeses of the individual heroes -- Starro, Kanjar Ro, Felix Faust, Royal Flush Gang, Crime Syndicate, Doctor Destiny, The Key, Amazo, Vandal Savage, etc. It's really good for a team concept, and a better RG than certain individual members have, including GL and WW.

And any of those villains would be far more iconic for the JL's first film outing. But again, this movie represents plans gone awry, and so we're left with the appetizer without the main course. *shrug*

I don't expect very good reviews at this point, but I'm going on Thursday and will decide for myself.


Of that list, the only ones that stand out to me as amazing characters instead of fun concepts are Vandal Savage and the Crime Syndicate (the latter of which I only really found a love for in Forever Evil as a way to really nail Lex as a character). I like the Royal Flush Gang well enough, but it takes a lot to make them a league worthy villain group. In fairness, I'm not overly fond of the Avenger villains either, but Marvel has done well with each of them so its really up to the translation.

I guess to me its just that DC's best villains don't really demand the League as foils. Sinestro, Black Adam, Lex, the Rogues and plenty of others are just fantastic characters I'd love to see in films, but none of the stories I love them for are League stories.... except of course Lex as the legit president of the US, which would be a particularly hilarious film to do right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Well, remember that this film was supposed to be part 1 of a 2-part story, presumably with Darkseid showing up at the end in a cliffhanger. And even though the revised plan ends up on a weird note with Steppenwolf as the big bad, I have a hard time blaming the studio's instincts. I'm not sure that a cliffhanger -- probably involving an evil Superman -- would have played well to audiences coming off BvS. I'm not a Snyder hater, but it's clear that audiences just weren't responding to him the way WB hoped.


When I saw Batman's evil Superman future I assumed they were going down the route of the "Legacy" episodes of the animated series. Could it have worked? Maybe? Honestly, the biggest problem with it is the strongest character ideas from it are kind of redundant with the whole "world fears Superman" angle that Man of Steel launched everything with in the first place.


I would say more like Injustice Superman, where he does do the heart-rip; just on Joker instead of Batman.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:11:20


Post by: LunarSol


I actually find the big, silly, city leveling fight and neck snapping end of MoS one of the least dark things about it. What really drains me on the film is Smallville and how much angst they try to pour into his backstory. The tornado sequence is one of the silliest things out there (could the dog at least still be alive in the present?) and Costner's Pa in general tries to crib too much off of X-Men's niche for my liking.

The world fear/hating Superman isn't the problem with the film, its that Clark is drained of any sense of family or community to contrast against it. Everybody just kind of fear/hates everyone else and it makes it hard to care about anyone. For a character often criticized for being generic and boring, the movie somehow makes him more generic than he's ever been and the film definitely suffers for it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:12:34


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Well, remember that this film was supposed to be part 1 of a 2-part story, presumably with Darkseid showing up at the end in a cliffhanger. And even though the revised plan ends up on a weird note with Steppenwolf as the big bad, I have a hard time blaming the studio's instincts. I'm not sure that a cliffhanger -- probably involving an evil Superman -- would have played well to audiences coming off BvS. I'm not a Snyder hater, but it's clear that audiences just weren't responding to him the way WB hoped.


When I saw Batman's evil Superman future I assumed they were going down the route of the "Legacy" episodes of the animated series. Could it have worked? Maybe? Honestly, the biggest problem with it is the strongest character ideas from it are kind of redundant with the whole "world fears Superman" angle that Man of Steel launched everything with in the first place.


I think the inspiration was more from Injustice...you can even see that in some of the costumes. But while that's a very popular franchise, critics and audiences don't seem to want those kinds of themes on the big screen. *shrug*

You're right that it would have felt like doubling down on 'fearing Superman'. I don't think MoS is *anywhere near* as dark or depressing as people claim, but BvS definitely took the franchise there at a time they probably just needed to push off from MoS with a solid sequel. Batman Begins wasn't universally acclaimed either, but it broke the eggs that needed to be broken and set up a great film in TDK.

The fact that MoS still doesn't have a proper sequel lined up is kinda ridiculous. That suggests WB is being far, far too sensitive to criticism, even though they probably made some financially correct decisions in moving away from Snyder's vision. Cripes, there's no good reason that Hal Jordan isn't in the JL movie other WB still feeling burned by the Reynolds film. They could have moved on from that and just given the character a soft reboot with a different actor...audiences would understand.


Very good points there - I do believe you've hit on something!

It really does appear that WB is listening too much to some of the criticism...

Cavill is on record as saying he'd love to make another Superman movie - it is silly that it isn't scheduled yet.

I suppose we'll see where this heads, going forward from JL.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:21:28


Post by: LunarSol


WB is definitely chasing the back rather than leading. I'm not sure how much of it is an executive thing or how much of it is just the studios making their films, or if honestly Geoff Johns just doesn't know how to express his ability to express what he's able to do for the DCU in his comics in the film medium. Either way, there's no doubt that the films are reflectively trying to play catch up with Avengers or Guardians or Deadpool or whatever made it big rather than being able to sell their own vision to the audience.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:41:12


Post by: gorgon


 Alpharius wrote:
It really does appear that WB is listening too much to some of the criticism...

Cavill is on record as saying he'd love to make another Superman movie - it is silly that it isn't scheduled yet.

I suppose we'll see where this heads, going forward from JL.


Yeah, Cavill has been publicly lobbying for another film for a while now. WB is overthinking it based on internet trolling and negativity. I think most people would say they generally like Cavill in the role, and that's half the battle. Now just make a good film. *shrug*

 LunarSol wrote:
I actually find the big, silly, city leveling fight and neck snapping end of MoS one of the least dark things about it. What really drains me on the film is Smallville and how much angst they try to pour into his backstory. The tornado sequence is one of the silliest things out there (could the dog at least still be alive in the present?) and Costner's Pa in general tries to crib too much off of X-Men's niche for my liking.

The world fear/hating Superman isn't the problem with the film, its that Clark is drained of any sense of family or community to contrast against it. Everybody just kind of fear/hates everyone else and it makes it hard to care about anyone. For a character often criticized for being generic and boring, the movie somehow makes him more generic than he's ever been and the film definitely suffers for it.


I see the underpass scene as almost necessary to push that part of the narrative. Ultimately, Jonathan would rather die than risk seeing Clark exposed, because for what that might mean for him. As a parent, this aspect of the film really resonated with me. In the real world, you would absolutely keep that gak under wraps out of fear that the government would come and take your alien child away to be experimented upon.

I'll begrudgingly acknowledge that perhaps the specifics of that scene are too contrived and angsty, though. Personally, I've always felt that the ending should have better framed his arrival at the Planet as Clark's way of honoring both of his fathers. The Superman identity does the things that Jor-El wanted, while Clark maintaining his normal life and identity protects himself and those around him. Ultimately, the story is about Clark and his two fathers, and that could have been underlined a little better IMO.


I don't know about the rest of you, but I keep seeing clickbait articles about JL being a total disaster, while the reviews overall seem to be very mixed. Guess the despair engine is up and running again after it failed to start for the WW release.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 18:54:53


Post by: Paradigm


Most of the reviews I've seen (admittedly I've not read more than about 5 for fear of spoilers) have been at least somewhat positive, and noted that a lot of the shortcomings (mainly down to the 2-hour run time) can be overcome with a bit of knowledge of the comics, so I'm sorted there. Given how much of a fan I am of pretty much all the DCEU (admittedly, Suicide Squad is a tad mediocre), if people that didn't like MoS/BvS are saying JL is good then I imagine I'm going to think it's great... and then spend the next 2 years arguing that on the internet, if the last few are anything to go by!

I saw this on the BBC.. Frankly, looks like a non-issue to me, and if this is the biggest thing people find to complain about with JL then DC will probably consider that a win...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41983452


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 19:02:27


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
WB is definitely chasing the back rather than leading. I'm not sure how much of it is an executive thing or how much of it is just the studios making their films, or if honestly Geoff Johns just doesn't know how to express his ability to express what he's able to do for the DCU in his comics in the film medium. Either way, there's no doubt that the films are reflectively trying to play catch up with Avengers or Guardians or Deadpool or whatever made it big rather than being able to sell their own vision to the audience.


I believe the sequence of events had Johns coming in right about the time that JL started filming. The BvS-JL plan was hatched when Snyder was more or less serving as DCEU godfather. Now, JL apparently went through major rewrites while filming, and then obviously still more rewrites and reshoots by Whedon.

Still, I think it's hard to hang issues with JL around Johns' neck, unless you believe that Snyder should have been left alone to fulfill his vision. Personally, I'm not sure that would have been wise given the stakes, and I even think Snyder is a talented guy.

Aquaman might be the first true look at the DCEU under Johns...which will really be more about individual directors' visions than centralized control anyway. Wan seems to have the Midas touch, so I'm really looking forward to it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 19:15:09


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:


I don't know about the rest of you, but I keep seeing clickbait articles about JL being a total disaster, while the reviews overall seem to be very mixed. Guess the despair engine is up and running again after it failed to start for the WW release.



Ha!

That one made me LOL at work!

"Despair Engine" indeed!

I'm looking forward to seeing the movie on Friday and then reading the reviews - it should make for an...interesting experience.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 19:28:44


Post by: LunarSol


It's not just the underpass scene; that's just what sums it up for me. It's the way Johnathan never comes across as a particularly strong father figure in shaping Clark's humanity. It's the way the movie shapes Clark into the sullen loner and outsider It takes Superman and tries to make him interesting by leaning into every dead parents/orphan who finds his importance cliche out there rather than find what makes the character unique in his own right.

I'll compare it to the way Marvel handled Captain America as both are playing to a certain sort of "old fashioned" mindset. It's pretty obvious that Marvel followed Millar's blueprint and fashioned the MCU after the Ultimates. Thankfully, rather than get Millar's bigoted and prejudiced Cap, Marvel found the humor in things like the "language" joke instead.

I don't mind the use of a wash to try and add a little definition, but in this case it seems like it removed all the details and just left us with something without much in the way of character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
WB is definitely chasing the back rather than leading. I'm not sure how much of it is an executive thing or how much of it is just the studios making their films, or if honestly Geoff Johns just doesn't know how to express his ability to express what he's able to do for the DCU in his comics in the film medium. Either way, there's no doubt that the films are reflectively trying to play catch up with Avengers or Guardians or Deadpool or whatever made it big rather than being able to sell their own vision to the audience.


I believe the sequence of events had Johns coming in right about the time that JL started filming. The BvS-JL plan was hatched when Snyder was more or less serving as DCEU godfather. Now, JL apparently went through major rewrites while filming, and then obviously still more rewrites and reshoots by Whedon.

Still, I think it's hard to hang issues with JL around Johns' neck, unless you believe that Snyder should have been left alone to fulfill his vision. Personally, I'm not sure that would have been wise given the stakes, and I even think Snyder is a talented guy.

Aquaman might be the first true look at the DCEU under Johns...which will really be more about individual directors' visions than centralized control anyway. Wan seems to have the Midas touch, so I'm really looking forward to it.


Yeah, I have no real idea how much say Johns gets as DC creative director. His fingerprints are definitely all over things like Green Lantern, the Flash series, and even bits of the Justice League. I assumed he's had a say in things for a while, but as to what power he really has or how much he has to do with the current tone or style is a mystery to me.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 20:39:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The review outcomes are quite mixed, but a lot of the comments seem fairly common.

I still don’t get how DC can kick Marvel’s arse all day long with animated stuff and their TV shows (not including the Netflix, or Agent Carter), but fluff it so badly when it comes to the tent pole movies.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 20:56:18


Post by: Kanluwen


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The review outcomes are quite mixed, but a lot of the comments seem fairly common.

I still don’t get how DC can kick Marvel’s arse all day long with animated stuff and their TV shows (not including the Netflix, or Agent Carter), but fluff it so badly when it comes to the tent pole movies.

Really? You don't get how DC can do well with their animated stuff but not their actual movies?

Take one part nerd dislike for anything "theirs" going mainstream, add another part "rawr we hate Ben Affleck/Snyder/<Insert Name Here> and everything he's involved in" , sprinkle with a dash of "They skirt too close to Real World politics, why can't comic movies be Fun(tm) again?" and call it job done.
The animated stuff is generally praised but even the TV shows tend to be pretty polarizing for DC.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 21:12:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Snyder aside (I don’t rate his work, other than Dawn of the Dead), it still doesn’t click for me.

Their animated stuff I can watch all day long - unlike Marvel’s, which I find a bit crap.

My love for their animated stuff goes all the way back to Batman The Animated Adventures, which were superb. And of course gave us Harley Quinn.

Whether it’s Affleck or whoever, they do seem to be struggling with their casting. Compare to Marvel, where I personally feel only Dr Strange is horribly miscast (I like Cumberbatch, but that accent....ugh)

Even The Dark Knight trilogy casting left me cold. Yes, Heath Ledger was amazing as the villain, but I don’t really think he portrayed Joker that well - there was no real pizazz. Creepy and unsettling? Yes. Effective? Undoubtedly. But Joker? Not for me. Bane was crap. Catwoman was crap. Two Face was crap. I appreciate I’m quite possibly a minority of one there, but hey, just my opinion, and no reason for anyone else to defend there’s or decry mine.

But their voice casting, and the direction of the animated stuff is just superb. I caught the Suicide Squad animated outing and loved it. The movie? Sucked sucked sucked. They all seemed like dodgy CosPlay efforts, where they’ve got the outfit down, shame they know nowt about the characters. (Seriously, Joker in that film is just awful).



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 21:22:37


Post by: LunarSol


DC is inherently a little more cartoony than Marvel. There big stories sound absolutely ridiculous when you really think about them:

"Evil doppelgangers from a parallel dimension!"
"Zombie heroes defeated by rainbow powered rings!"
"Invasion of the sea people!"
"Monster eating up all of the alternate universes!"
"Evil dude ripping reality into multiple universes!"

It's all very silly on premise but the premise is often less important than the details when it comes to DC stories. They're often about bigger ideas and win out by using those ideas to cut to the heart of the character archetypes. It makes for great, if silly sounding stories.

The challenge they face is just that outside of Batman, most of the DCU is a pretty fantastical place. Marvel can get away with "just like your world, but this guy steps up to save the day" as a premise; and the MCU itself has done a great job of going from normal reality, to an alien invasion, to a post alien world that's no longer quite as relateable as it started, but we were all along for the ride.

DC has a much harder time bridging the gap without starting at Batman, but Batman doesn't escalate quite as well as Iron Man does. Batman has a lot of appeal as a minimalist hero, and while Batmobiles and jets are easy enough to include, the fancier his tech the further away he gets from what really makes him appealing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 21:23:18


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The review outcomes are quite mixed, but a lot of the comments seem fairly common.

I still don’t get how DC can kick Marvel’s arse all day long with animated stuff and their TV shows (not including the Netflix, or Agent Carter), but fluff it so badly when it comes to the tent pole movies.

Really? You don't get how DC can do well with their animated stuff but not their actual movies?

Take one part nerd dislike for anything "theirs" going mainstream, add another part "rawr we hate Ben Affleck/Snyder/<Insert Name Here> and everything he's involved in" , sprinkle with a dash of "They skirt too close to Real World politics, why can't comic movies be Fun(tm) again?" and call it job done.
The animated stuff is generally praised but even the TV shows tend to be pretty polarizing for DC.


What negative reviews are you getting that from?

As someone with a lot of friends who hated BVS, and a BVS hater myself, I've never heard anyone complain about Ben Affleck, real world politics or taking good stuff from the cartoons. those are not the things people would criticize first or second or even fifth about the film.

If these phantoms are what DC is reacting to, they are in serious trouble.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 21:24:51


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Remember....Zak Snyder. Nothing is too daft.


Zak is actually an excellent director, but no director can outdirect a bad script. Blame the writing, not the director, for ridiculous stories and plotting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Paradigm wrote:
I can't believe that nearly 10 years into the Cinematic Universe craze, we still haven't seen anyone do a real villain team (I guess the closest was the Horsemen in X-men Apocalypse).


You mean like the Magneto, Mystique, Toad & Sabretooth team-up in the first X-men movie? That doesn't count as a proper villain team?

Or, what about Sandman & Venom?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
Batman has a lot of appeal as a minimalist hero, and while Batmobiles and jets are easy enough to include, the fancier his tech the further away he gets from what really makes him appealing.


At his best, Batman is more Deadpool than Hawkeye. There is really nothing better than watching Batman drop down onto some random mugger and beat the everliving living gak out of him just because he can, and it's fun. That's the one thing that Burton and Keaton totally got about Batman, that has really been forgotten since then.

Making Batman the only normal in a room full of super-duper supers doesn't work, whereas the Avengers have Tony, Natasha, Pym/Lang and Rhodey in addition to Barton. The balance is very different.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 22:26:07


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The review outcomes are quite mixed, but a lot of the comments seem fairly common.

I still don’t get how DC can kick Marvel’s arse all day long with animated stuff and their TV shows (not including the Netflix, or Agent Carter), but fluff it so badly when it comes to the tent pole movies.


People say that they rushed, but it wasn't that exactly, IMO. It's that they committed to one director's very specific vision, and it wasn't the crowdpleasing, goodwill-building vehicle that a brand new cinematic universe needed. And now WB has to try to fix and undo what's been done, and that's a very messy process.

Snyder was a fanboy of The Dark Knight Returns, and he kinda sorta filmed it with BvS, which Jay Baruchel astutely called the most expensive indie film ever made. That source material has a *very specific* take and mood, and is SO not a general audiences Batman story. As a one-off, it'd be one thing, but as a universe-building vehicle? Maybe not so good even conceptually. Then his JL was a continuation of his BvS story, which was supposed to continue on into his JL Part 2. It was just too much commitment to Snyder and what *he* wanted to do.

To be fair, I'm not sure that Snyder even wanted to be DCEU godfather in the first place. WB offered that job to Nolan, but he declined it because he had other stuff percolating.

WW was a different director with her own vision, and it worked...at least for 98% of the audience. I think you'll see the DC films settle down quite a bit after they can move past JL.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 22:53:18


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Snyder wants to make certain sorts of movies, gritty, yet larger than life, and he was willing to do so with Superman. I'd also doubt that ever really wanted to do a DCEU ensemble movie, but it's clear that he did his best to accommodate all of the post-Avengers studio demands, including taking the hits in public.

IMO, Warner is trying really, really hard and rushing to make a DCEU happen out of things that never really should have. What's interesting is to compare where Marvel Studios was at the same point in their world-building.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 23:20:53


Post by: Compel


One massive ground breaking success in Iron Man.

An awkward, awkward production involving the lead actor taking WAY too much control over the film, that ended up being thought of poorly in... "The Incredible Hulk."

A film where they essentially fully introduced 3 new heroes (not including post credits appearances and non costume previous appearances). - Black Widow, Nick Fury and War Machine. Was seen as another poor film and a glorified toy advert. AKA Iron Man 2.

Thor, a film that divided many opinions on its quality, is generally seen rather negatively, but *did* introduce Loki as the MCU's greatest villain. Also introduced Hawkeye.

And finally, the equivalent of Justice League would be: "Captain America: The First Avenger." Again, a film that divided opinions, but was held together by the charisma of its cast. Also had a remarkably poor villain.

So yeah, not perfect, to be honest.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 23:21:01


Post by: LunarSol


Marvel gave us 4 years of movies to make Avengers hit. Everyone else is trying to do in less than 2. Marvel also gave themselves a ton of options early on. There's a lot of opportunity to see what's working (if only at a studio level) and what's not and adapt future movies accordingly in all the films prior to Avengers.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 23:34:23


Post by: Alpharius


Man of Steel 2013
Batman vs Superman 2016

then

Wonder Woman 2017
Justice League 2017

WB pivoted from what was probably their original plan of:

MoS - as is
BvS - as is
Wonder Woman - possibly modified as a reaction against the overall 'grim' tone of MoS and BvS?

JL - PROBABLY was going to have resurrected evil brainwashed Superman show up near the end of the movie, and end in a cliff hanger and lead into...

JL2 - Darkseid shows up, Superman is redeemed and returned to the side of good and off we go.

JL has been changed - from what we 'know' - significantly.

It will be interesting to see/know/learn just how much!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/15 23:39:15


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Compel wrote:
So yeah, not perfect, to be honest.


Exactly. Marvel wasn't all sunshine and roses early on. And don't forget that Iron Man was far from a sure thing - there were a lot of clouds over RDJ when he was cast.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 01:59:25


Post by: Just Tony


 gorgon wrote:
The fact that MoS still doesn't have a proper sequel lined up is kinda ridiculous. That suggests WB is being far, far too sensitive to criticism, even though they probably made some financially correct decisions in moving away from Snyder's vision. Cripes, there's no good reason that Hal Jordan isn't in the JL movie other WB still feeling burned by the Reynolds film. They could have moved on from that and just given the character a soft reboot with a different actor...audiences would understand.


This is confirmed? So Hal isn't the surprise reveal? I've been really lucky to avoid spoilers thus far...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 02:34:06


Post by: gorgon


 Just Tony wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
The fact that MoS still doesn't have a proper sequel lined up is kinda ridiculous. That suggests WB is being far, far too sensitive to criticism, even though they probably made some financially correct decisions in moving away from Snyder's vision. Cripes, there's no good reason that Hal Jordan isn't in the JL movie other WB still feeling burned by the Reynolds film. They could have moved on from that and just given the character a soft reboot with a different actor...audiences would understand.


This is confirmed? So Hal isn't the surprise reveal? I've been really lucky to avoid spoilers thus far...


No, I haven't seen it and haven't read every spoiler, so don't take that as confirmation. It definitely APPEARS as though he's not, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Compel wrote:
So yeah, not perfect, to be honest.


Exactly. Marvel wasn't all sunshine and roses early on. And don't forget that Iron Man was far from a sure thing - there were a lot of clouds over RDJ when he was cast.


One interesting difference that gets overlooked is that Marvel was positively penny-pinching with those early films. Four of the first five were $150MM budget or lower. And while they've had multiple films over $200MM now, they recently had Ant-Man at $130MM and Dr. Strange at $165MM. They like managing their risk. And that's a good thing too, as the early films did a mere fraction of the box office that more recent films have.

Conversely, WB went ALL IN (pun intended) with their films, both with their choice of director/godfather and the huge budgets. Perhaps the few hundred million sunk into each film was a reason they've been acting like nervous nellies throughout.

Still, I've seen multiple reviews praise the characters in JL and say they'd like to see them again (in a better movie). If that's the takeaway from JL, then I think WB can officially consider their universe salvaged.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 03:00:32


Post by: sebster


 LunarSol wrote:
I actually find the big, silly, city leveling fight and neck snapping end of MoS one of the least dark things about it. What really drains me on the film is Smallville and how much angst they try to pour into his backstory. The tornado sequence is one of the silliest things out there (could the dog at least still be alive in the present?) and Costner's Pa in general tries to crib too much off of X-Men's niche for my liking.

The world fear/hating Superman isn't the problem with the film, its that Clark is drained of any sense of family or community to contrast against it. Everybody just kind of fear/hates everyone else and it makes it hard to care about anyone. For a character often criticized for being generic and boring, the movie somehow makes him more generic than he's ever been and the film definitely suffers for it.


I think the city leveling end of Man of Steel actually could have worked, if as you say they hadn't spent a couple of hours before then showing Clarke Kent being inexplicably resentful and mistrusting of everyone for everything.

If instead Superman had naturally and happily started his acts of heroism, and if humans had naturally loved him for it, then that sets up an interesting dynamic when Zod arrives and demands Superman. People would then start to hate him for bringing Zod, the military could attempt to capture Superman, and the final ending could have had real pathos - Superman willing to fight for humanity even when humanity will not. But we didn't get that movie


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 06:59:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The other main difference between the DC and Marvel films?

Marvel went with B List, because they’d sold off their A List to keep the company afloat.

Unlike Superman (Christopher Reeves for my generation is the definitive), most folk didn’t really know much about Iron Man/Tony Stark and his chums.

On one hand, that’s a big risk. The names weren’t going to sell those films alone. That they produced good movies in the end was luck as much as judgement.

But MoS? Barely recognisable as Supes. And I think that did damage. You can absolutely make a Dark and Gritty Batman. He’s motivated by revenge and a personal crusade. That fits. Supes? He’s meant to be a sickengly goody two shoes, at least in the public conscience. So the audience just wasn’t ready for a mardy arsed Supes, not by a long shot.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 13:30:32


Post by: Alpharius


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The other main difference between the DC and Marvel films?

Marvel went with B List, because they’d sold off their A List to keep the company afloat.



Not to nitpick but...not quite.

Iron Man, Thor and Captain America - while not having quite the 'reach' of Batman or Superman (and maybe Spider-Man), aren't quite 'B' list.

At that time, Marvel couldn't use Spider-Man, and had already kinda/sorta screwed up the Hulk (their other 'reconginzable' name), so they went with the Avengers.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Unlike Superman (Christopher Reeves for my generation is the definitive), most folk didn’t really know much about Iron Man/Tony Stark and his chums.



Again, Batman and Superman = well known names. Everyone else? Not so much.

And didn't Superman and Superman 2 come out before you were born?

You can have Superman 3 and 4 though...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


But MoS? Barely recognisable as Supes. And I think that did damage. You can absolutely make a Dark and Gritty Batman. He’s motivated by revenge and a personal crusade. That fits. Supes? He’s meant to be a sickengly goody two shoes, at least in the public conscience. So the audience just wasn’t ready for a mardy arsed Supes, not by a long shot.


Hilariously enough, one of the biggest knocks on Superman has often been that he's too much of a goody-two shoes. Especially for 'today's age'.

So, what happens when he gets dirtied up a bit?

Yeah, exactly.

DC's in a tough place, and has an uphill battle.

They'd be wise to, as Gorgon mentioned earlier, not pay too much attention to...most of the critics.

Just concentrate on making good movies - and they'll make plenty of money.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 13:42:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Thor, Cap and Shellhead weren't exactly household names at the outset of the MCU. So I think that meant audiences went in without expectation of how a given character should act and behave.

Compare to Supes? I get the criticism that he's too goody two shoes (and I agree, to some extent). Dirtying him up a bit isn't a bad idea - but MoS felt like an unexplained 180 flip. I don't think the general public were quite ready for that.

(also, I'm 37, born in 1980. Supes 1-4 were part of my Movies On TV childhood!)

Consider the journey Batman had been on. When I was a nipper, it was the Adam West. Then, around the age of 9, came Tim Burton's. Still camp in it's own way, but a good bit darker in tone. Daft, but not ridiculous. Following that of course came Batman The Animated Adventures, which I've already praised just a few posts ago. That really pushed who Batman is for a decent slice of the audience. So when The Dark Knight came around, the groundwork for a darker, mankier Batman had been laid.

But Superman didn't have that. Even Superman Returns doesn't serve as a halfway house between Richard Donner and Zak Snyder's respective takes.

Perhaps MoS will be looked on more favourably in future. But for now, I think it was, tonally, too much, too soon in terms of change.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 14:42:25


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Consider the journey Batman had been on. When I was a nipper, it was the Adam West. Then, around the age of 9, came Tim Burton's. Still camp in it's own way, but a good bit darker in tone. Daft, but not ridiculous. Following that of course came Batman The Animated Adventures, which I've already praised just a few posts ago. That really pushed who Batman is for a decent slice of the audience. So when The Dark Knight came around, the groundwork for a darker, mankier Batman had been laid.

But Superman didn't have that. Even Superman Returns doesn't serve as a halfway house between Richard Donner and Zak Snyder's respective takes.

Perhaps MoS will be looked on more favourably in future. But for now, I think it was, tonally, too much, too soon in terms of change.


MoS had to be the one to break eggs, and that's always a tough spot when you have people with many preconceived ideas (in Superman's case, many that were rooted in films and comics from the '70s!). You're 100% correct that this is where Marvel had a subtle but important advantage.

WB was in that spot with Superman because Singer copped out and gave us a weird semi-sequel to decades-old movies with a lead actor who looked like the dead previous lead actor. Storywise, it had a Superman who'd impregnated Lois and removed her memory, and then spent time hovering over Lois's house, creeping on her family. When you step back and consider it, it's a really strange fething film beyond all the miscasts and bad performances. And yet according to Metacritic, critics liked it a little more than Batman Begins, and much more than (IMO) a better cast, written, directed and conceived film in MoS.

Batman Begins scored a 70 on MC. Batman Forever scored a 51! There's a little more than 19 points of quality difference between those films. But context is important. Batman Begins had to break eggs to set up the terrific TDK, and in doing so some critics felt it was too dark and lacking the fun (which really meant 'camp') of the Schumacher films. The Batman AS probably did some lifting, but I'd really look to BB as the vehicle that took the brunt of it, and it shows in the reviews that are more lukewarm than you'd think. Release BB today, and it's probably an 85.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 15:21:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I just think they jumped too far, too soon.

A grimmer Superman can be interesting. After all, when you skew things a little, he becomes an over protective dictator, albeit a benevolent one. In the post cold war climate, he's a relic of 'America, WORLD POLICE!' that's just not welcome anymore - even though he's never done anything against our species own interests.

But at this stage, I think DC could genuinely do with going back to the drawing board. What they've aimed for was bold, no doubting that, it was just a bit lacking in execution for most. The apparent/alleged damage control on JL doesn't seem to have paid off - if the reviews are anything to go by.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 16:27:18


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perhaps MoS will be looked on more favourably in future. But for now, I think it was, tonally, too much, too soon in terms of change.


You know, DC Warner had gotten great reviews for Burton making Batman darker and gritter; and then even higher praise when Nolan went darker and grittier yet again. With the high praise for dark and gritty Watchmen and the Matrix and so forth, making a darker and grittier Superman trilogy makes perfect sense.

Right up until Marvel pulls a Billion dollars from a lighter, team-focused Avengers movie and resets everyone's expectations of what a superhero movie can be.

I believe Zack's original plan was MoS and a 2-part Doomsday / Death of Superman, because that is the story he'd naturally tell as darker and grittier. Recall what a big thing Death of Superman was when it was originally published. Everything that got added to be more like Marvel's Avengers is where things went wrong. Pretty sure that Loopy Lex (for the comedy and light tone) and Batman (for snark) and WW and all of that stuff was all just tacked on by studio fiat.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 16:41:33


Post by: LunarSol


DC has long had issues with what "darkening" really means. A lot of it is simply due to how much success they've gotten with Batman's reworking in the 80's and some phenomenal deconstruction of the superhero medium in general through works like the Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. The solution becomes "make Superman like Batman or Dr Manhattan" but that kind of misses the point of deconstruction.

Marvel has had a much better history with Cap (assuming they don't make a Secret Empire movie...). They don't try to reinvent him by giving him personal issues so much as they darken the world around him and challenge him by creating a world that no longer supports what he believes in.

Ultimately that's what lets down attempts to make Supes darker. The more you try to play up the things that make him like other heroes like being an orphan or whatever, but in doing so, you lose the opportunity to use his unique voice to create worthwhile character interactions. So many great stories rely on the contrast of Superman and Batman, so trying to port in the success of one on the other seems like a huge mistake, particularly if you're trying to put them in a movie together.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 16:53:01


Post by: gorgon


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perhaps MoS will be looked on more favourably in future. But for now, I think it was, tonally, too much, too soon in terms of change.


You know, DC Warner had gotten great reviews for Burton making Batman darker and gritter; and then even higher praise when Nolan went darker and grittier yet again. With the high praise for dark and gritty Watchmen and the Matrix and so forth, making a darker and grittier Superman trilogy makes perfect sense.

Right up until Marvel pulls a Billion dollars from a lighter, team-focused Avengers movie and resets everyone's expectations of what a superhero movie can be.

I believe Zack's original plan was MoS and a 2-part Doomsday / Death of Superman, because that is the story he'd naturally tell as darker and grittier. Recall what a big thing Death of Superman was when it was originally published. Everything that got added to be more like Marvel's Avengers is where things went wrong. Pretty sure that Loopy Lex (for the comedy and light tone) and Batman (for snark) and WW and all of that stuff was all just tacked on by studio fiat.


Ultimately I think it will be said that they erred in 'killing' Superman -- and especially Clark, how will they work that out? -- at such an early stage in the universe. Cliffhangers are something for episodic television. And while old grizzled Batman has a certain appeal, it also isn't a great way to start the character in a new universe.

I guess a pithier version of all my previous blather is that while Snyder was focused on telling a very specific TDKR/Death of Supes story, what WB actually needed was someone focused on laying groundwork for the future and engaging general audiences.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:22:37


Post by: ProtoClone


 LunarSol wrote:
Marvel gave us 4 years of movies to make Avengers hit. Everyone else is trying to do in less than 2. Marvel also gave themselves a ton of options early on. There's a lot of opportunity to see what's working (if only at a studio level) and what's not and adapt future movies accordingly in all the films prior to Avengers.


^^This hit the problem I think is happening for WB.

https://www.facebook.com/dennis.detwiller/posts/10159633222395584
But there is also this from Dennis Detwiller.
A bit of a run down on who Dennis Detwiller is: Dennis Detwiller is a game designer for various RPGs and most notably for the award winning Call of Cthulhu game, Delta Green. He also works as a managing editor for Monte Cook games.
Spoiler:
Dennis Detwiller I've told this story before:

My first day at WB, we were brought to a special preview screening of Man of Steel and 20 minutes of Fury Road.

Man of Steel was turgid and flat, and just kind of bad. The 20 minutes of Fury Road (the rig chase in what would later be the giant storm—the effects weren't fully in yet) was absolutely-fething-amazing.

Afterwards, a bunch of WB execs asked us, the new WB creatives, what we thought of Man of Steel. Well, I said, it was kind of flat.

"Oh no, it's tested like crazy." "Well, it's a mystery where you already know the answer. Everyone has since the first Superman comic?" They guy stared at me blankly. "Who and where Superman came from? And then you have Clark trying to solve that after you walk us through the history of Krypton in the first half an hour of the movie."


Blank.

"But Fury Road was AMAAZING. That movie...I can't..."

Hand wave:
"That's Miller's movie so he keeps making the penguin films."

"So, about Man of Steel..."

They have no idea what they have, when they have it, and even when they do have it, they treat it like crud.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:32:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 gorgon wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I believe Zack's original plan was MoS and a 2-part Doomsday / Death of Superman, because that is the story he'd naturally tell as darker and grittier. Recall what a big thing Death of Superman was when it was originally published. Everything that got added to be more like Marvel's Avengers is where things went wrong. Pretty sure that Loopy Lex (for the comedy and light tone) and Batman (for snark) and WW and all of that stuff was all just tacked on by studio fiat.


I guess a pithier version of all my previous blather is that while Snyder was focused on telling a very specific TDKR/Death of Supes story, what WB actually needed was someone focused on laying groundwork for the future and engaging general audiences.


Well, sure, now that we've seen how the MCU works and pulls Avengers money...

However, if you're pitching against the aftermath of the MCU Hulk and Thor movies, then IM is beginnner's luck. In that context, a DoS-based standalone Superman trilogy makes perfect sense. Remember, the timelines for movies are long before they ever start filming, much less hit the screen. I don't think Warner or Zack ever intended Superman to feed into JL when he started filming MoS. In fact, JL probably wasn't even a concept until after the Avengers hit.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:41:02


Post by: Paradigm


I think part of the problem DC had was the time it took them to actually get going, and the fact that forced them to play catch up more and more.

If they'd released MoS in 2013 then gone straight onto, say Wonder Woman the following year, Batman the year after that (last so it's furthest possible distance from The Dark Knight trilogy), they could have still released BvS in 2016 as JL-light/Trinity film but without having to set up WW and Batman in the movie as well... Then, use the second 2016 and first 2017 film to introduce, say, Green Lantern and Flash, then bring it all together with Aquaman and Cyborg introduced in JL in 2017. (and the next two to get solo films). It's quite a pace, but no faster than the early years of the MCU.

Suicide Squad seems an odd one to have picked so early, but perhaps it did it's job in establishing that this is a properly comic book universe and that the metahumans are everywhere... Perhaps, though, it would have been better served as a Batman story first and foremost a la the Assault on Arkham animated movie, which while focusing mainly on the Squad does ultimately come down to a showdown between Batman and the Joker, which is what
everyone wanted from Suicide Squad anyway.

I'd not be surprised if things even out a bit now they're up to 2 films a year consistently, but the 3-year gap between MoS and BvS represents a lot of time they could have been world-building in.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:53:21


Post by: Frazzled


RT reviews are coming in. They are not good. Looks like a rental (at best) for me.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/justice_league_2017


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:57:02


Post by: LunarSol


Rushing is definitely the core of the problem though. The Green Lantern movie is a prime example. It's really not at all interested in itself and really, really wants to give us the Sinestro Corp War (arguably its hoping for Blackest Night I'd wager, but maybe not).

What it really really needed was to be a smaller initial movie. Hal gets the ring, fights off alien mence, movie ends with the Corps showing up to drag him off to training and open up the larger universe. Second movie is training day in space with Sinestro being the villain. Third movie is Sinestro Corp War where he goes after earth in retribution for losing his status in the GLC. Instead we got a weird attempt to shove those first two arcs of the plot into one film and some shoddy execution on top.

The same can pretty much be said of BvS. It's trying to launch a new universe by rushing through a mashup of two extremely popular story arcs via a major villain who isn't originally a part of either. How much of the issue is WB and how much of it is on Snyder (who clearly loves 80's superhero deconstruction) is kind of up in the air, but ultimately they just haven't managed to plant a movie as solid as Iron Man to build from.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 17:57:41


Post by: ProtoClone


 Paradigm wrote:
I think part of the problem DC had was the time it took them to actually get going, and the fact that forced them to play catch up more and more.

If they'd released MoS in 2013 then gone straight onto, say Wonder Woman the following year, Batman the year after that (last so it's furthest possible distance from The Dark Knight trilogy), they could have still released BvS in 2016 as JL-light/Trinity film but without having to set up WW and Batman in the movie as well... Then, use the second 2016 and first 2017 film to introduce, say, Green Lantern and Flash, then bring it all together with Aquaman and Cyborg introduced in JL in 2017. (and the next two to get solo films). It's quite a pace, but no faster than the early years of the MCU.

Suicide Squad seems an odd one to have picked so early, but perhaps it did it's job in establishing that this is a properly comic book universe and that the metahumans are everywhere... Perhaps, though, it would have been better served as a Batman story first and foremost a la the Assault on Arkham animated movie, which while focusing mainly on the Squad does ultimately come down to a showdown between Batman and the Joker, which is what
everyone wanted from Suicide Squad anyway.

I'd not be surprised if things even out a bit now they're up to 2 films a year consistently, but the 3-year gap between MoS and BvS represents a lot of time they could have been world-building in.


They had their hands tied with a lawsuit involving Superman that prevented them from going forward with any movies.

It wasn't until the judge said they could go ahead and proceed with their movie plans that they were able to make movies.

But yes, they have been playing catch up since then and have been cutting corners to make up the time they lost. The problem is that it is obvious they are cutting corners and the movies haven't been that great, with the exception of Wonder Woman.

I think Wonder Woman was a hit for them because they were forced to take their time with it, not cut corners, and make sure she was being served with her proper respect, and it showed. Wonder Woman proved they can do this right, that they can make these characters work but they have to just take their time in the execution.

If WB just admits they are tardy and focus on making sure they have quality over quantity they will show they are to be taken seriously.
But no, they want the fast cash now and they'll worry about how it works later. That's where Marvel has them beat. Marvel has released some rather meh movies following up to the Infinity War movie, but that's OK. They have people looking forward to the next movie by the time their current movie is released. So while a character might not have performed well in the box office, it keeps them relevant for the bigger picture.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 18:04:54


Post by: LunarSol


Part of Wonder Woman's success is that they somehow just found Diana wandering around in the world and got her to be in a movie, similar to RDJ as Tony Stark.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 18:18:59


Post by: Alpharius


 Frazzled wrote:
RT reviews are coming in. They are not good. Looks like a rental (at best) for me.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/justice_league_2017


Eh, whatever?

This wasn’t going to be ‘well reviewed’ almost ‘no matter what’, I feel.

I’m trying to avoid spoilers, so I haven’t read any yet but I’ve skimmed titles and grades, and I’ve seen reviews that liked it, some said it was ok, and some that said it was absolute garbage.

It looks like you’re going to get out of it what you went in looking to get.



So...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 18:36:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Frazzled wrote:
RT reviews are coming in. They are not good. Looks like a rental (at best) for me.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/justice_league_2017


Last night, preview numbers had it at 48%, now it's officially down to 40%? Huh. Even at 40%, it's still better than BvS and SS.

But yeah, we're down to a rental now. From the public library. After it's FREE.


OTOH, Thor is at 92% and still showing...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 18:52:04


Post by: gorgon


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Well, sure, now that we've seen how the MCU works and pulls Avengers money...

However, if you're pitching against the aftermath of the MCU Hulk and Thor movies, then IM is beginnner's luck. In that context, a DoS-based standalone Superman trilogy makes perfect sense. Remember, the timelines for movies are long before they ever start filming, much less hit the screen. I don't think Warner or Zack ever intended Superman to feed into JL when he started filming MoS. In fact, JL probably wasn't even a concept until after the Avengers hit.


No, that's right...MoS was intended as a standalone. It was the brainchild of the Nolans and Goyer, and Chris Nolan has famously said that he thinks superheroes work better in individual films than shared universes. BvS and JL were mostly Snyder, with some Goyer.

And I agree that IM and RDJ were strokes of luck in many ways. Favreau established the Marvel film template, and RDJ just kept the whole enterprise together and going with the force of his personality. They've diversified more since, but even CAPTAIN AMERICA: Civil War was Tony Stark's movie. He was the only character with a legit arc.


While "rushing" is an easy narrative, I really don't think WB's problem has anything to do that, and it doesn't really fit the facts anyway. Marvel had their team-up after only five movies, and two were IM. JL is the fifth movie in the DCEU. And Marvel needed to take a little more time because the characters they had left weren't A-list, and other than the Hulk really weren't in the public consciousness.

Nothing about WW's success had to do with taking more time with the film. It was shot and conceived in a normal timeframe. What it had was a director with a clear vision for the film (she had lobbied WB for years about a WW film) that matched what WB needed from it. They could have given Snyder two more films before JL, and we still would have had divisiveness just because the dark and deconstructionist story he wanted to tell wasn't what a fledging universe needed or general audiences wanted.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 20:42:51


Post by: LunarSol


That's a fair point. A bit part of DC's problem is just that they haven't been able to find a style of movie that works for anyone beyond Batman. Neither Superman Returns nor Green Lantern really connected the way Batman Begins did and the second try with Man of Steel hit similar problems.

A lot of that comes from the sense that DC films have that same lack of authenticity that you feel from Fox and Sony. Marvel puffed up a lot of their early work under the idea that they were comic writers making movies and there's probably something to that. A lot of other studios seem to be pretty focused a lot on what they believe works in movies and don't trust comics to translate to film directly.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 21:10:01


Post by: Compel


I don't think that's an unfair statement to make to be honest. Especially when you compare and contrast it with Legends of Super Flarrow and the animated films.

Although, maybe things will improve a bit going forward. It looks like, while JL still has its flaws, there was still a partial course correction going on coming out of WW's success.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 21:52:19


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 LunarSol wrote:
A bit part of DC's problem is just that they haven't been able to find a style of movie that works for anyone beyond Batman.


... or Wonder Woman, surprisingly.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 21:55:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Surprisingly, but also importantly.

Because had WW been gash, the usual bellends would’ve put it down to ‘wimmins’

And this is some one who saw WW, and thought Gal Gadot was entirely wooden and unconvincing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 22:02:20


Post by: Alpharius


Well there was bound to be one or two people who thought that, right?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 22:02:46


Post by: gorgon


 Compel wrote:
I don't think that's an unfair statement to make to be honest. Especially when you compare and contrast it with Legends of Super Flarrow and the animated films.

Although, maybe things will improve a bit going forward. It looks like, while JL still has its flaws, there was still a partial course correction going on coming out of WW's success.


Yeah, like I said earlier, even some of the mixed reviews say that they'd like to see more of these characters and it's a more positive heroic vibe that might better connect with audiences. So although the reviews aren't good, JL might actually get some positive work done for the DCEU in ways that BvS and SS didn't.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
A bit part of DC's problem is just that they haven't been able to find a style of movie that works for anyone beyond Batman.


... or Wonder Woman, surprisingly.


I have a feeling that Aquaman is going to be good too. James Wan is a real pro who just knows how to make a popular, successful film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 22:22:35


Post by: ProtoClone


Well, here's CNNs thoughts.
Alpha, and others not wanting to read anything don't open.

Spoiler:
(CNN)The success of "Wonder Woman" provided a golden ray of hope that Warner Bros. and DC had finally mastered this whole comic-book-movie thing. "Justice League," by contrast, reflects the haste with which the parties rushed to create their cinematic universe and catch up with Marvel, leaping several intermediate steps in a single bound.

In one respect, this lavish superhero team-up is better than expected, yielding a few fun and clever moments, if one chooses to compare it to the bloated "Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice" and "Suicide Squad."
On the other hand, it's at best workmanlike, and nowhere near as polished and satisfying as "Wonder Woman," which had the advantage of being a straightforward origin story, stripped of conspicuous concerns about stringing together pieces to move action figures.
Warner Bros. made a choice years ago by essentially handing the keys to its superhero kingdom to director Zack Snyder, who put his stamp on "Man of Steel," "Batman v. Superman" and now this. (Snyder stepped away from the film due to a family tragedy, with Joss Whedon helping finish it, though Snyder retains sole directing credit, from a script attributed to Whedon and Chris Terrio.)
Snyder is clearly a gifted visual stylist, someone who can bring what look like comic-book panels to three-dimensional life. It's his characters that tend to be a little flat and somewhat humorless, a criticism that "Justice League" labors to address, with mixed results.

Although some of the groundwork was laid in "Batman v. Superman," this latest movie still has to transact a great deal of business, setting up the individual team members, uniting them under the grumpy stewardship of Batman (Ben Affleck) and fending off an extraterrestrial threat.
The Dark Knight is joined by Wonder Woman (Gal Gadot, again a formidable asset), as well as the newcomers, who, almost of necessity, fall into convenient baskets. There's the brooding loner Aquaman (Jason Momoa), tortured outcast Cyborg (Ray Fisher) and callow, nerdy Flash (Ezra Miller), whose just-glad-to-be-with-you-guys enthusiasm is designed, somewhat successfully, to deliver comic relief.
Plus, there's the question of that other guy, the one with the big red S, who happens to be one of DC's most recognizable commodities when the goal is producing big green bucks. (Like Warner Bros., CNN is a unit of Time Warner.)
The threat is somewhat generic, and has to be explained via a long, dizzying eruption of exposition, one apt to confuse those who aren't reasonably conversant in DC mythology. It's adequate -- giving the budding team cause to come together, albeit with a fair amount of squabbling -- if uninspired, yielding the obligatory demonstration of chaotic computer-generated mayhem.
Unexpectedly, "Justice League's" most refreshing component is one of its hoariest -- namely, its depiction of Batman, who Affleck plays with world-weary gravity. Older, bruised and solitary, he's forced by a danger far beyond him to grudgingly seek out help others, even if that means lightening up a bit.
That is, admittedly, merely one component of a big, sprawling movie. Yet while "Justice League" endeavors to save the world -- and plant the seeds to do so again -- this is the sort of film, given DC's track record, that should celebrate small victories where it can find them.
"Justice League" premieres Nov. 17 in the U.S. It's rated PG-13.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/entertainment/justice-league-review/index.html


My thoughts (Hidden in spoilers).
Spoiler:
This felt like a very measured response by CNN and offered a fair review of it saying, basically, that it isn't that bad. Yes, when compared to how Marvel movies look it will look bad but when compared to BvS or SS, it is good, not WW good, but good.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/16 22:32:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Alpharius wrote:
Well there was bound to be one or two people who thought that, right?


Which bit?

And I think we also need to collectively recognise the frankly phenomenal achievement of the MCU.

We’re now seventeen movies in, and all of them have performed. Whilst I’m a fan of the franchise, I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge it has issues with internal consistency. Low points for me? Thor, The Dark World, and Dr. Strange.

But even the low points have been enjoyable enough.

Barring the James Bond franchise (and for me, the Moore era. Just a opinion!), not other franchise has enjoyed anything like the success Marvel has.

That to me suggests it’s a genuine one off. You cannot repeat or emulate that success. It just happened. There’s no rhyme or reason to it. They just got incredibly lucky,

Yes we can absolutely contrast and compare DC and Marvel’s efforts...but as to how Marvel have kept it up this long? it’s Just One Of Those Things.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 04:30:17


Post by: sebster


 LunarSol wrote:
DC has long had issues with what "darkening" really means. A lot of it is simply due to how much success they've gotten with Batman's reworking in the 80's and some phenomenal deconstruction of the superhero medium in general through works like the Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. The solution becomes "make Superman like Batman or Dr Manhattan" but that kind of misses the point of deconstruction.

Marvel has had a much better history with Cap (assuming they don't make a Secret Empire movie...). They don't try to reinvent him by giving him personal issues so much as they darken the world around him and challenge him by creating a world that no longer supports what he believes in.

Ultimately that's what lets down attempts to make Supes darker. The more you try to play up the things that make him like other heroes like being an orphan or whatever, but in doing so, you lose the opportunity to use his unique voice to create worthwhile character interactions. So many great stories rely on the contrast of Superman and Batman, so trying to port in the success of one on the other seems like a huge mistake, particularly if you're trying to put them in a movie together.


Exactly. Superman doesn't become more interesting by making him more flawed. The question 'how do make a paragon of virtue interesting?' is not answered with 'don't make him a paragon of virtue'. That's a bad question and a terrible answer.

Superman is interesting because he is a paragon of virtue, and if really need to fit him in to a dark story you can still do that, by putting him in a dark world.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 04:35:16


Post by: Just Tony


Okay, maybe I'm a bit lost. What made MoS overly dark or grim? It was still an alien raised with homegrown American values and morals who held to those morals. Because he killed Zod? He did that in Byrne's comic reboot after Crisis, named Man of Steel funnily enough.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 04:47:24


Post by: sebster


 gorgon wrote:
While "rushing" is an easy narrative, I really don't think WB's problem has anything to do that, and it doesn't really fit the facts anyway. Marvel had their team-up after only five movies, and two were IM. JL is the fifth movie in the DCEU. And Marvel needed to take a little more time because the characters they had left weren't A-list, and other than the Hulk really weren't in the public consciousness.

Nothing about WW's success had to do with taking more time with the film. It was shot and conceived in a normal timeframe. What it had was a director with a clear vision for the film (she had lobbied WB for years about a WW film) that matched what WB needed from it. They could have given Snyder two more films before JL, and we still would have had divisiveness just because the dark and deconstructionist story he wanted to tell wasn't what a fledging universe needed or general audiences wanted.


Yes. DC isn't rushing any more than Marvel was. The one that sticks in my mind if Antman, which burned through a couple of directors without pre-production ever slowly down. The Marvel schedule is a train that will not slow down, even if the driver jumps off. Same as DC. And it wasn't a problem for Antman, that was a really fun movie.

And in both cases, the time for each movie is more than long enough, if you start with some clarity about the story you want to tell. With Marvel's weaker efforts, like Iron Man 2 and Avengers 2 it seems to me there was no clarity, and apart from Wonder Woman this has been the problem with all the DC movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
I have a feeling that Aquaman is going to be good too. James Wan is a real pro who just knows how to make a popular, successful film.


Huh? So far Wan's career has been jump scare nonsense like the Conjuring movies. I'm not saying he can't make a good Aquaman movie, and so far his films have been commercially successful, but I really don't see how we could look at his career and say he definitely has the chops to produce


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And I think we also need to collectively recognise the frankly phenomenal achievement of the MCU.


Yes and no. There's two different elements - the actual quality of the movies, and their commercial success.

On their actual quality, I don't think things are anywhere near as rosy as you suggest. They certainly put out quality way more than most efforts - in film as in most things, 90% is crap is the golden rule, and Marvel is batting well over 50%. But you only list 3 missed films, when others like Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron and The Incredible Hulk were also bad movies (and yes, The Incredible Hulk was a Marvel branded film, even if Edward Norton was such a dick that Marvel decided to just throw a new actor in as the Hulk in Avengers).

But more than that, there's a lot of Marvel films that are... fine. Slick productions that come and go, and if someone asks you about it a week later you can maybe remember a clever line or two. Nothing wrong with making slick films to a formula, but it should be recognised that only scoring in terms of bad vs not bad will flatter a studio focusing on safe products.

Marvel's extraordinary commercial success should be seen in the context of that. They've released a long list of movies with only a few bad movies and no really bad, FF4 reboot disasters. So there's a brand there, an audience expectation of a certain level of quality. It's how something like Antman, a c-list comic character, played by a good actor with no star power at the time, can be a solid hit despite the crowded film market. Marvel's achievement isn't that they've somehow managed to string together 17 hit movies in a row. Marvel's achievement is that they've built a brand that's strong enough that even the weaker concepts and poorer films still get dragged up by the overall brand. So for instance, The Dark World was a bad movie, and a sequel to a bad movie, and it still grossed more than $600m. Most of that is due to Thor drawing goodwill from the rest of the MCU, particularly his inclusion in Avengers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
Okay, maybe I'm a bit lost. What made MoS overly dark or grim? It was still an alien raised with homegrown American values and morals who held to those morals. Because he killed Zod? He did that in Byrne's comic reboot after Crisis, named Man of Steel funnily enough.


There's the actual, literal colour of the film. Everything that isn't black is washed of its colour. It looks bleak, and this was deliberate.

But more than that the central question of the movie is Superman figuring out if he should actually help people. Should he follow his earthly father and hide away even if it means people die? Or should he follow his space ghost dad, who said he should protect the people of Earth? If I have awesome powers that I can use to help people, should I bother? That's a miserable question, and the film gives a miserable answer. That answer shows us Clark Sr lecturing his son for saving some kids, and then shows us Clark taking that advice on board and letting his own Dad die rather than reveal his powers.

Then, after space ghost Russel tells him to use his powers, and Zod basically forces him to, we get the showdown between Kal-El and Zod, but also with a whole lot of Kryptonian extras. And that fight focuses on the carnage and destruction inflicted on the city, rather than the spectacle of super powered beings fighting.

That all ends with superman breaking Zod's neck. That bit was fine, I thought. Zod was straight up telling Kal-El kill me or I'll murder these hapless extras, and Superman chose the humans. It was a clear character choice, and perfectly justified, albeit a little on the nose. But everything that came before then was so bleak that people reacted against that moment.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 06:32:41


Post by: AduroT


Saw it. Liked it. Everyone in the group of a dozenish people I went with liked it. Overall I’d say not as good as Wonder Woman, but certainly better than BvS. One weird thing, for all the aliens and super powers and flashy stuff, Batman looked the most fake/cgi to me when he moved.

Also yes, two after credits scenes. A comic one early on, and a story one at the very end.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 07:03:59


Post by: Just Tony


 sebster wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Okay, maybe I'm a bit lost. What made MoS overly dark or grim? It was still an alien raised with homegrown American values and morals who held to those morals. Because he killed Zod? He did that in Byrne's comic reboot after Crisis, named Man of Steel funnily enough.


There's the actual, literal colour of the film. Everything that isn't black is washed of its colour. It looks bleak, and this was deliberate.

But more than that the central question of the movie is Superman figuring out if he should actually help people. Should he follow his earthly father and hide away even if it means people die? Or should he follow his space ghost dad, who said he should protect the people of Earth? If I have awesome powers that I can use to help people, should I bother? That's a miserable question, and the film gives a miserable answer. That answer shows us Clark Sr lecturing his son for saving some kids, and then shows us Clark taking that advice on board and letting his own Dad die rather than reveal his powers.

Then, after space ghost Russel tells him to use his powers, and Zod basically forces him to, we get the showdown between Kal-El and Zod, but also with a whole lot of Kryptonian extras. And that fight focuses on the carnage and destruction inflicted on the city, rather than the spectacle of super powered beings fighting.

That all ends with superman breaking Zod's neck. That bit was fine, I thought. Zod was straight up telling Kal-El kill me or I'll murder these hapless extras, and Superman chose the humans. It was a clear character choice, and perfectly justified, albeit a little on the nose. But everything that came before then was so bleak that people reacted against that moment.


To me, the tone of the movie represented the weight of responsibility of Kal-El, as he tried to juggle his powers with a normal life. Yes, his dad stressed keeping his powers unrevealed, but if you remember from the movie, there were several instances where he DID use his powers to save people, which was the reason he lived that Bill Bixby/David Banner sort of nomadic existence. And I won't argue that there was far too much catastrophe porn in that movie, but that was, to me, the worst of it. Well, hologram ghost Jor-El was pretty much up there, but as it stands I actually liked the movie. I also liked BvS, but then again I went into it under the impression that it wasn't going to jive with the comics.


And I'll reiterate because it needs reiteration constantly: they should have gotten Thomas Jane to play Batman.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 08:17:42


Post by: sebster


 Just Tony wrote:
To me, the tone of the movie represented the weight of responsibility of Kal-El, as he tried to juggle his powers with a normal life. Yes, his dad stressed keeping his powers unrevealed, but if you remember from the movie, there were several instances where he DID use his powers to save people, which was the reason he lived that Bill Bixby/David Banner sort of nomadic existence. And I won't argue that there was far too much catastrophe porn in that movie, but that was, to me, the worst of it. Well, hologram ghost Jor-El was pretty much up there, but as it stands I actually liked the movie. I also liked BvS, but then again I went into it under the impression that it wasn't going to jive with the comics.


Yeah, that's a good reason to take the tone to a darker place. But your question wasn't why there was a darker or tone or if the material could justifying going there, it was why people thought it was a darker movie.

As to whether that darker tone cuold have been justified, I think it wasn't a bad choice in itself. It was a good way to move past Superman Returns, and to move differentiate from the jokier tone in the Marvel movies. And the film certainly had some interesting ideas. The problem was the tone was so unrelentingly bleak, that it didn't give any answers to its questions. And then while maintaining that bleak tone it also gave us a world with space dragons and space ghost Russell Crowe, which it asked us to take absolutely seriously.

I also liked Batman v Superman. On an objective level it isn't a good movie, but there's enough stuff in there that I like that I've enjoyed it both times I've watched it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 09:30:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think you made the same point as me when it comes to Marvel, albeit far more eloquently.

Despite internal consistency issues, all their films have turned a tidy profit, and the public perception is ‘Oh it’s a MCU film? I’ll probably enjoy it then’

By no means are they fine fare films. Their production values put them up above a Junk Food analogy, but not beyond Chain Restaurant. You’re not gonna be eating Michelin Star food, but you know you’ll get a certain value for money regardless.

The MCU is a one off for me. It can’t be repeated, because so much of its momentum is from ‘right place, right time’ luck. People make a big thing about Superhero movies being the Big Thing - but given the issues most other studios have (Logan being the main exception), I think it’s farier to say it’s simply Marvel are the Big Thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you made the same point as me when it comes to Marvel, albeit far more eloquently.

Despite internal consistency issues, all their films have turned a tidy profit, and the public perception is ‘Oh it’s a MCU film? I’ll probably enjoy it then’

By no means are they fine fare films. Their production values put them up above a Junk Food analogy, but not beyond Chain Restaurant. You’re not gonna be eating Michelin Star food, but you know you’ll get a certain value for money regardless.

The MCU is a one off for me. It can’t be repeated, because so much of its momentum is from ‘right place, right time’ luck. People make a big thing about Superhero movies being the Big Thing - but given the issues most other studios have (Logan being the main exception), I think it’s farier to say it’s simply Marvel are the Big Thing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 11:37:48


Post by: Just Tony


sebster wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
To me, the tone of the movie represented the weight of responsibility of Kal-El, as he tried to juggle his powers with a normal life. Yes, his dad stressed keeping his powers unrevealed, but if you remember from the movie, there were several instances where he DID use his powers to save people, which was the reason he lived that Bill Bixby/David Banner sort of nomadic existence. And I won't argue that there was far too much catastrophe porn in that movie, but that was, to me, the worst of it. Well, hologram ghost Jor-El was pretty much up there, but as it stands I actually liked the movie. I also liked BvS, but then again I went into it under the impression that it wasn't going to jive with the comics.


Yeah, that's a good reason to take the tone to a darker place. But your question wasn't why there was a darker or tone or if the material could justifying going there, it was why people thought it was a darker movie.

As to whether that darker tone cuold have been justified, I think it wasn't a bad choice in itself. It was a good way to move past Superman Returns, and to move differentiate from the jokier tone in the Marvel movies. And the film certainly had some interesting ideas. The problem was the tone was so unrelentingly bleak, that it didn't give any answers to its questions. And then while maintaining that bleak tone it also gave us a world with space dragons and space ghost Russell Crowe, which it asked us to take absolutely seriously.

I also liked Batman v Superman. On an objective level it isn't a good movie, but there's enough stuff in there that I like that I've enjoyed it both times I've watched it.


I see your point, and we definitely found something we agree upon.



Now, if you'll pardon me, this calls for vodka...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 12:44:22


Post by: gorgon


 AduroT wrote:
Saw it. Liked it. Everyone in the group of a dozenish people I went with liked it. Overall I’d say not as good as Wonder Woman, but certainly better than BvS. One weird thing, for all the aliens and super powers and flashy stuff, Batman looked the most fake/cgi to me when he moved.

Also yes, two after credits scenes. A comic one early on, and a story one at the very end.


I saw it too. The critics aren't wrong about some things. But I think audiences will generally like it and have a good time.

Folks definitely want to stay for the mid-credits scene, at least. It's something really classic and fun.

P.S. Really, really hard to believe they don't have a MoS sequel lined up yet.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 16:19:13


Post by: Easy E


I think they are still struggling with what to do with a stand-alone Superman film after MoS. I mean, what do you do with the guy? What story do you want to tell?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 16:35:09


Post by: LunarSol


If I was trying to make another Superman movie right now, I'd be eyeing the "President Luthor" era pretty heavily.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 16:57:02


Post by: Mr Morden


 LunarSol wrote:
If I was trying to make another Superman movie right now, I'd be eyeing the "President Luthor" era pretty heavily.


I don't really know the comics but would that fit with the current world? They have had one really good film - Wonder Woman so they would be sensible to tie anything new to that character?

Of course anything associated with Lex Luthor needs a new actor/character directing to avoid the dismal and shockingly awful train wreck of a portrayal of that character in Bats vs Sups.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 18:26:31


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Saw it. Liked it. Everyone in the group of a dozenish people I went with liked it. Overall I’d say not as good as Wonder Woman, but certainly better than BvS. One weird thing, for all the aliens and super powers and flashy stuff, Batman looked the most fake/cgi to me when he moved.

Also yes, two after credits scenes. A comic one early on, and a story one at the very end.


I saw it too. The critics aren't wrong about some things. But I think audiences will generally like it and have a good time.

Folks definitely want to stay for the mid-credits scene, at least. It's something really classic and fun.

P.S. Really, really hard to believe they don't have a MoS sequel lined up yet.


Same here!

I enjoyed it quite a bit - even more than I thought I would.

It did feel rushed in places, and many of the League could have used a bit 'more' (Aquaman in particular), but I understand why we got the shorthand versions of their origins.

Also, now having seen JL, any reviewer that calls it 'garbage' or 'terrible'? Well, I won't be trusting their reviews anymore...

Overall - a fun, enjoyable movie.

Now, a question!

Spoiler:
IF Superman could only have been revived how he was, what was up with the ending of BvS? The floating dirt heavily implying some form of regeneration was already under way?

Did things change that much between BvS, the less than favorable reactions to BvS, and the reshoots on JL?


Also:

Spoiler:
Kudos to how much they hid Superman's presence in this movie and how they marketed it! Sure, it was going to happen, but wow! And there are a few scenes from the trailers that didn't make it into the movie. Interestingly enough, most of the ones involving...Superman! Almost like they were shot only for the trailers?


I find myself looking forward to the 'extended cut' DVD release too...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 19:09:27


Post by: Ahtman


Spoiler:
One of my favorite parts of the film was when Flash was trying to run behind Superman and realized Superman could see him. Really that scene overall was good but that part really stood out to me.

As to the question of the floating dirt vs. Mother Box regeneration I also found that a bit odd.

I thought Steppenwolf worked fine as the villain. He isn't top tier cinema comic villain but he worked well enough to seem like a threat that would get this group together.

Also I was under the impression DC didn't want to do post credit scenes as it would seem like they were ripping off Marvel so I didn't see the one all the way after the credits. Did see the Superman/Flash race though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
It did feel rushed in places, and many of the League could have used a bit 'more' (Aquaman in particular), but I understand why we got the shorthand versions of their origins.


Apparently the studio had a directive that it had to be under 2 hours, which is why with credits it is two hours and one minute. Considering they had to introduce a lot of characters, reintroduce at least one, and get the plot going they did pretty good for having to make it under a time limit. I'm hoping there is a longer cut for the Bluray but the two hour limit explains why it comes across as rushed.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 19:18:45


Post by: Alpharius


Well, if you didn't stay to the very end....


Spoiler:
You missed that Luthor has escaped (and he's still somewhat...loopy0, he's not happy that Superman is back, and he's going to get together a group of his own. And he's starting with...Deathstroke.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 20:01:04


Post by: AduroT


Spoiler:
Yeah I love the scene where they fight the newly ressurected Supes and his Eyes first move to follow Flash. I Do wish they had shown him to be more obviously not quite as fast as him. Hell, they really did just make Flash a comic relief bafoon. Like every time he did something heroic or cool he then had to immediately trip and face plant or have someone else just instantly upstage him.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 20:10:20


Post by: LunarSol


 AduroT wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah I love the scene where they fight the newly ressurected Supes and his Eyes first move to follow Flash. I Do wish they had shown him to be more obviously not quite as fast as him. Hell, they really did just make Flash a comic relief bafoon. Like every time he did something heroic or cool he then had to immediately trip and face plant or have someone else just instantly upstage him.


One of my favorite exchanges in DC comics is during Flash: Rebirth when Superman is trying to chase Barry down.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 21:01:59


Post by: Compel


I just saw the film and I thoroughly enjoyed it. However I can very easily be described as a fan boy. But to try to be more neutral in my reaction is...

First and possibly most important, there was nothing really 'wrong' with the film. Nothing like loopy Lex or gangsta Joker is the like.

I'd also say that there are no real 'cinema sins' committed in the film either. The plot is nice and straightforward - villain gathers maguffins in order to conquer the world.

The cast are good together, enjoyable to watch. Fun action and so on.

I suppose the downside is, there isn't much that would exactly bring the art of cinema forward. It's a fun popcorn action movie that I would like to think most people would rather watch than, for example, some Michael Bay fare.

Oh, there's 2 scenes, one mid credits, one post credits.


One last big thing I want to say. Pay attention to the music, particularly during the second half of the film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/17 21:59:24


Post by: LunarSol


 Compel wrote:

I'd also say that there are no real 'cinema sins' committed in the film either.


I'm sure a half hour video will show up on YouTube regardless.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 02:25:02


Post by: Ahtman


 AduroT wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah I love the scene where they fight the newly ressurected Supes and his Eyes first move to follow Flash. I Do wish they had shown him to be more obviously not quite as fast as him. Hell, they really did just make Flash a comic relief bafoon. Like every time he did something heroic or cool he then had to immediately trip and face plant or have someone else just instantly upstage him.


Spoiler:
He did explicitly say he had really not used his abilities much in the movie so the fact he is a newbie when it comes to using them shouldn't be a surprise. Superman was the first time he had ever even run into someone with nearly as much speed as him and it wasn't until later when Superman pushed him that he blew Superman away with speed.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 03:30:03


Post by: gorgon


 Ahtman wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah I love the scene where they fight the newly ressurected Supes and his Eyes first move to follow Flash. I Do wish they had shown him to be more obviously not quite as fast as him. Hell, they really did just make Flash a comic relief bafoon. Like every time he did something heroic or cool he then had to immediately trip and face plant or have someone else just instantly upstage him.


Spoiler:
He did explicitly say he had really not used his abilities much in the movie so the fact he is a newbie when it comes to using them shouldn't be a surprise. Superman was the first time he had ever even run into someone with nearly as much speed as him and it wasn't until later when Superman pushed him that he blew Superman away with speed.


That sequence admittedly had me laughing out loud. The look of Miller's face with each beat was hilarious.

Wtf? WTF?!? WTF!!!?!!!

Something roughly similar happens in the first New 52 issue of JL.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:

Apparently the studio had a directive that it had to be under 2 hours, which is why with credits it is two hours and one minute. Considering they had to introduce a lot of characters, reintroduce at least one, and get the plot going they did pretty good for having to make it under a time limit. I'm hoping there is a longer cut for the Bluray but the two hour limit explains why it comes across as rushed.


It's interesting to consider that there were effectively 3 versions of the film. You have the 'part 1' version (never actually shot) that would have set up Darkseid and presumably would have ended with an evil Superman. Then there's the revised-in-response-to-bvs-reactions version that Snyder shot. Then there's the Whedon rewrite and reshoot.

I agree that the film actually did a solid job of introducing the characters. There's plenty for the critics to pick at with the film, but I thought the handling of characters was good and does make you want to see more of them.


Edit: I thought the cold open with the Superman interview was a nice touch.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 07:54:09


Post by: AduroT


The cold open was one of the Whedon reshoots. You can tell because his face is a bit weird because they had to post production out the mustache he had grown for working on his next movie.

So it turns out when you come back from the dead, the thing you lose isn’t your heart or your soul, but rather the stick up your arse.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 08:23:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Justice League was an entertaining time at the movies.

I cannot wait to see the rest of it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 16:07:02


Post by: Alpharius


 gorgon wrote:


 Ahtman wrote:

Apparently the studio had a directive that it had to be under 2 hours, which is why with credits it is two hours and one minute. Considering they had to introduce a lot of characters, reintroduce at least one, and get the plot going they did pretty good for having to make it under a time limit. I'm hoping there is a longer cut for the Bluray but the two hour limit explains why it comes across as rushed.


It's interesting to consider that there were effectively 3 versions of the film. You have the 'part 1' version (never actually shot) that would have set up Darkseid and presumably would have ended with an evil Superman. Then there's the revised-in-response-to-bvs-reactions version that Snyder shot. Then there's the Whedon rewrite and reshoot.

I agree that the film actually did a solid job of introducing the characters. There's plenty for the critics to pick at with the film, but I thought the handling of characters was good and does make you want to see more of them.


Edit: I thought the cold open with the Superman interview was a nice touch.


And there were still a bunch of deleted scenes from Version 3.

I wonder if we'll ever get to see (or just know) what Versions 1 and 2 were like - and I wonder if I actually want to?

I think I'd be happy with a 'full' Version 3. If that exists?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 19:04:08


Post by: gorgon


It sems questionable as to whether one could even assemble anything coherent out of the full Snyder shoot and the Whedon revision. For Whedon to have gotten a writing credit means he must have written at least 30% of the script, I think. That means a LOT of footage was never used.

Seems like it'll be one of those mysteries we'll never get an answer for. And that goes double for the original two-part vision. While I've (wrongfully) been accused of being a Snyder fanboy, I suspect the studio had legit reasons for concern about the Snyder shoot...although obviously some of the issues may have been sparked by their demands to changes to his original vision and plan post-BvS. Everyone has a share of the blame, I guess.

The lack of drama around the Aquaman film may be a good sign, as it turned out to be with WW.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 19:09:18


Post by: Paradigm


To be honest, my main thought walking out was how much I want to see Snyder's version of this film, before reshoots and Whedon's involvement and studio plans reshuffling and all that. Like him or hate him as a director, he has such a unique style that I personally really enjoy and that seems almost invisible here. Yes, it's lightened up which will probably make a lot of people happy but with that, I feel the film kind of threw away any sense of gravitas and weight; The threat of Steppenwolf, ostensibly the largest this universe's Earth has faced, came across as far less intense than that posed by Zod or Doomsday or even Ares in WW.

People go on about the first half of BvS taking too long to set stuff up before any action, but here we have the opposite; the action starts in the first few minutes and doesn't really pause for more than about 5 at a time until the end, and as a result the stakes feel far less palpable. The world is going to end, yes, but without the zealotry of Zod or the insanity of Luthor or the primordial rage of Doomsday, Steppenwolf is just a guy who's good at smashing things and to beat him, all you have to do is smash harder. That single family is followed as shorthand for the human stakes, but without any setup beyond 'if he wins, everyone dies' there's no suspense building, just a succession of larger and larger punch-ups.

Now, this doesn't make it a bad film. It's fun, it's flashy, it's an enjoyable watch in spite of this, but it's very much a by-the-numbers team-up movie, it's Avengers Assemble with a Find And Replace on the names. I don't know how much was Whedon's in the final cut, but I'd suggest most of it probably was. Some scenes, such as the Batcave argument, seemed just lifted from his other work. Again, not something that makes it a bad film, but it feels generic where the rest of the DCEU (for better or worse) has been notably original and avoided these conventions.

I'm happy with it as it stands. I'd be even happier with an extended cut that added in another 20-30 minutes just to flesh out the story and add some bridging scenes between the relentless action. But ultimately, I can't help but feel that Synder's version of the film is the one I've been looking forward to since that first Comic Con trailer last year and that wasn't recognisable at all in Whedon's Leaguers Leaguesemble....


All that said...
Spoiler:

There were some absolutely awesome moments and scenes that the film deserves credit for.

- That Green Lantern cameo in the 5000 Years Ago flashback was just awesome, had me practically jumping out of my seat. Kind of reminds you how much this film really should have had GL in it from the start, but I'm glad they've had the confidence to just throw them in as an established part of the universe, that speaks well for their stance going into GL Corps.

- The two post-credits scenes were great. The Superman/Flash race is just something straight from a comic page (even if I find it odd Superman is waaay faster in this than he was in MoS/BvS... ) and the Injustice League setup is very promising. I look forward to whatever form that takes, hopefully the wait isn't too long.

- The Superman open was great. Drives the point home that he was always the hero even when the world was turning against him in BvS and that he's not changed in his resurrected form, he's just more of what he already was.

- Once again, Wonder Woman steals the show in pretty much every scene she's in. Gadot just has a knack for turning fairly ordinary dialogue into gold through sheer charisma, and her interactions with everyone as the 'heart' of the team are fantastic.



I did have one major issue, the manner in which they bring back Superman (or rather, the fact they do bring him back rather than him coming back. Leaving aside the pointless fight with the League just to reestablish how powerful he is, I don't feel like the use of the Motherbox when, going back to the original Death of Superman, coming back after a period of regeneration is just something Superman can do under his own power. It also reduces him to kind of a weapon that the League breaks out to fight Steppenwolf, I think his return would have been much more powerful if he'd healed, revealed himself to Lois as Clark then immediately set off to join the fight without ever being asked, immediately stepping back into the role of the hero.




Anyway.... that's quite enough for now. I shall definitely be seeing it again, I want to appreciate it for the good film it is rather than the great film I felt cheated out of the first time round.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 20:56:05


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


Saw it last night, and while it was certainly not the best thing ever, I really enjoyed it. There were some dumb things sure, but I've come to expect that from pretty much everything. I enjoyed the characters and their interactions and ultimately it ended up feeling like an episode of Justice League or JLU and that I think is really all it needed.

Spoiler:
I would have liked the ressurection of superman to have been longer, maybe as I've seen pointed out by other people and some reviewers done as its own movie. But I liked it, and I liked that Henry Cavil got to finally play a Superman more people will relate with or find enjoyable.

Deathstroke in the stinger was all sort of yes, Im ready for more.




Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 21:32:04


Post by: AduroT


@Paradigm

Spoiler:
The fight v Supes actually has a subtleish point. Everyone else went violent on Supes while Batman was the only one who didn’t fight him. His “big guns” was calling in Lois to talk him down. Something he actually learned from BvS where he saw the nightmare future where Supes was evil but Flash told him Lois was the key.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 21:43:55


Post by: Paradigm


 AduroT wrote:
@Paradigm

Spoiler:
The fight v Supes actually has a subtleish point. Everyone else went violent on Supes while Batman was the only one who didn’t fight him. His “big guns” was calling in Lois to talk him down. Something he actually learned from BvS where he saw the nightmare future where Supes was evil but Flash told him Lois was the key.



Spoiler:

Yeah, I get that point. It's just the fight itself I feel was unnecessary. Why couldn't Lois just have been there when they brought him back, to calm him immediately? Hell, why not just have Batman yell 'Martha' at him as soon as he woke up? (Ok, I'm being slightly facetious with that, but at the same time I do think some kind of reversal of the Martha scene could have actually worked and helped people who missed the point of it in BvS 'get it', so to speak. Maybe too soon for most, though. )

It's possible I'm just bored of hero-on-hero fight scenes after BvS, Civil War and X-men Apocalypse, but it just felt like a waste of 10 minutes in a film that was already struggling to fit in everything it needed to thanks to WB's 2 hour run-time order. I'd happily trade that sequence which is basically there to show how powerful Superman is (err, we know, he's flipping Superman, it's kind of his main thing...) for more early development for Barry or Victor or even Steppenwolf.


Hardly a major thing, just something I think could have been handled a lot better or cut entirely without making much of a difference to the film. But that would require Whedon to have written and directed something other than punching and quipping, which is hardly his strong suite...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an unrelated note...

Spoiler:

Did anyone notice the John Williams Superman theme in the film? I saw it in the credits, but couldn't place it in the soundtrack.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 22:15:25


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


 Paradigm wrote:

Spoiler:

Did anyone notice the John Williams Superman theme in the film? I saw it in the credits, but couldn't place it in the soundtrack.


Spoiler:
Supes vs Flash, also the Batman '89 theme is in there


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 22:33:05


Post by: squidhills


 Paradigm wrote:

On an unrelated note...

Spoiler:

Did anyone notice the John Williams Superman theme in the film? I saw it in the credits, but couldn't place it in the soundtrack.


It was when
Spoiler:
Supes was taking swings at Flash and Flash was dodging the hell out of them


My opinion is that this movie took place in a completely different universe than BvS. Here, we see the world mourning a heroic and beloved icon of hope, instead of the mopey git that everyone hated and protested in BvS. It's the only way the opening of the film makes any kind of sense, since in Snyder's deconstructionist take on the DC Universe, everyone was anti-Supes (except for Lois and Martha). For the world to roll out huge black banners with the Superman logo on them after his death fighting a monster that threatened an empty stretch of dockyard, they would have had to have had a much higher opinion of him than anyone in MoS or BvS ever displayed. So this is some kind of parallel-universe soft-reboot and I don't mind at all. It's nice to see a world where iconic avatars of good get to be good and heroic instead of bitter and cynical. And they included color in the film! That was a nice surprise, considering WB's tendency to drain all color from a film based on a very colorful medium.

I actually thought Aqua Man came across very good in this. He was a lot cooler than I thought he could be. Batman seems to have mellowed out a bunch. He's still the most world-weary of the characters, but he really does seem to have rediscovered the "hope" that everyone in the movie tells us Superman represented. WW is awesome, of course. Flash is fun, but I think the movie's tendency to make him the butt monkey was a bit much. As someone else here pointed out, every single time he does something cool, it is immediately followed by a pratfall or him screwing up in some way. I would have liked for him to finish one action beat without egg all over his face. I don't really have an opinion on Cyborg, because I've never in my life had an opinion on Cyborg. He was definitely in this movie, that's for sure.

The movie was fast-paced, due to the runtime and the need to cram three new characters into the story, but I think it was handled well. I can't think of a single wasted scene in this film. Everything is either directly important to the plot, or it sets up a later scene which delivers a payoff. I enjoyed this movie far more than I thought I would. I wouldn't put it on the same level as Wonder Woman, but it is definitely far superior to the other three films WB has put forward.

The best scene for me was
Spoiler:
right before the team's first fight with Steppenwolf, when Flash reveals he is in over his head and doesn't think he should get involved, Batman turns to him and says "Save one. Just go in there, save one person, and get out." It's awesome because it is all Batman needs to say. He knows Flash can save one person, even if he can't fight, but he also knows that Flash won't stop after saving just one. He knows Flash will go back in for number two. And number three. And number four. And so on, until the hostages are clear of the danger.
That little bit made the movie for me.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/18 23:57:56


Post by: AduroT


I did love that speech. What do I do after that? You’ll know.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 01:45:29


Post by: Compel


Yeah, I did like how they got the Justice League doing their jobs.

Flash saving people.
Bats and Cyborg doing 'the mission'
The remainder doing the fighting.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 03:06:28


Post by: DarthDiggler


I’m not a DC fan, but I liked the movie. I liked the bad guy. It was like they were fighting Sauron. 10ft. Tall, one big weapon, took an alliance in ancient times to defeat him.

One thing I thought about afterwards was the studio has a Superman problem. The JL struggled in their encounters with Sauron, both times. Superman showed up and just curb stomped him in seconds. He had time to take a time out and go save an apartment building in the middle of the fight. I think it was all fine for this film, but I mean they are going to have to pass out a heavy dose of kryptonite to every JL bad guy from now on to even have a chance going forward.

But in the end I liked it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 03:25:35


Post by: Compel


I suppose the thing to keep in mind is ultimately, the main villain is nothing more than a lackey.

He's not even the fightiest of Darkseid's lackeys either, being more of a midground between Commander and stabbiness. You've got Kalibak as the stabbiest. - Plus whatever side you put Barda on, depending on the timeline of when you bring her in.

Then add Kanto and the Furies, plus, of course, Darkseid himself... I don't think we need to worry as far as any 'New Gods' storylines are concerned...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 05:32:58


Post by: gorgon


Yeah, Steppenwolf was always almost certainly intended to be a tomato can to get knocked over before Darkseid showed up. It's one of the issues you get when the plan changes twice.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 14:08:41


Post by: Paradigm


 Easy E wrote:
I think they are still struggling with what to do with a stand-alone Superman film after MoS. I mean, what do you do with the guy? What story do you want to tell?


Given that the current stance towards solo movies at DC seems to be going for stuff that works as standalone movies with a very specific style and vision, I think a sensible choice would be something that sends Superman off into space, that way you can't just play the 'where's the League while this city block is being levelled' card. In a perfect world, I'd like to see an adaptation of the Geoff Johns story Superman: Brainiac (though with the ending tweaked as Jonathan Kent is already dead in this universe). The animated film Superman: Unbound did a good job with it, and the story is straightforward enough that a director could really put their owns stamp on it.

The other thing that story has going for it as movie fodder is that it pretty heavily features Supergirl, so if they want to bring a version of her into the DCEU then it would be the perfect opportunity. Alternatively, given that a good chunk of it is set in space, you could even throw in a Lantern or two or even someone like Martian Manhunter in there if you wanted something to further expand the universe.

I could definitely see them going for the President Luthor stuff down the line, but I think to properly serve the magnitude of that you need something some level of teamup to demonstrate that it's affecting the entire setting. Batman/Superman is the obvious one from that era of comics, the Public Enemies story, but even a Superman/Wonder Woman or Trinity teamup would work.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 15:20:55


Post by: AegisGrimm


Because as much as I enjoy the spectacle of the movie, it was depresso Clark, and his crisis of faith over killing Zod was a bit lost in the face of the potential hundreds or thousands of deaths fighting Zod ten minutes before must have caused.

Clark spent nearly the entire movie being the tortured hero.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 15:48:59


Post by: Compel


Err... What...?

He smiled more in the first 30 seconds of the movie via flashback than he did throughout his last 2 films.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/19 22:25:47


Post by: trexmeyer


I can't believe how wrong the critics are about this film.

Here are the actual issues: the CGI is subpar, especially compared to Thor: Ragnarok (I watched that like 2 weeks ago so it's fresh in my mind). The story is nothing spectacular, but it did have some nice twists that deviated from what I expected off the cuff.
Spoiler:
Resurrecting Superman, Batman bringing Lois Lane in as the "big guns" to help calm him, Parademons turning on Steppenwolf, etc
The pace of the movie limited a lot of character development.

All of the casting is great and the character portrayals do a great job at hinting at something more. Especially for Cyborg, we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg with him.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 00:45:10


Post by: skyth


I enjoyed the movie, though thought Thor Ragnarok was an order of magnitude better. Also, I really prefer Grant Gustin as The Flash

One thing to comment on.

Spoiler:
The Flash was faster than Supes by a little bit with how Barry was dodging Supe's blows. It just wasn't by much...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 01:06:41


Post by: trexmeyer


Who was the actor that played the bad guy/robber in the opening scene? The one with the big jaw.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 01:50:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Wait, thought you meant Roose Bolton...

This guy, I think.




Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 02:39:58


Post by: trexmeyer


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wait, thought you meant Roose Bolton...

This guy, I think.




That is him! I kept picturing him in Heroes, but couldn't place it. Thanks.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 13:58:06


Post by: Alpharius


 trexmeyer wrote:
I can't believe how wrong the critics are about this film.


You're not wrong there!

And as expected, if it made even a dollar less that 'projections', it was going to get the 'disappointment' and/or 'failure' label ASAP... oh well!



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 14:38:41


Post by: Paradigm


I do find it quite strange that this movie has had a far more positive reception than BvS or Suicide Squad but has a lower opening weekend than any of the other DCEU films. While money certainly isn't everything, and there are a lot of other factors (Thor still being on probably has a significant impact, I'm not sure any of the others released this close to a direct competitor), I wonder why JL is a good $10 million behind the others when it's had the most positive reception besides Wonder Woman, audience-wise.

Is that large a chunk of the potential audience just burnt out on DC, or comic book movies in general? Is this release slot just the wrong time of year? Were MoS, BvS and SS more of a success than people want to admit? Is the film just too generic to appeal to the more casual audiences who assume (perhaps correctly) that it's just Avengers Again? (love it or hate it, BvS was something unprecedented which probably filled a lot of seats just on the promise of the name, and to a certain extent SS and WW were 'firsts' as well with a villain focus and female lead respectively). Or are people just still listening to critics even when it's pretty clear they're mostly talking rubbish at this point?

Not sure. But it'll be interesting to see how this does in the long run, especially if the more conventional style of Justice League actually makes less than the more original but supposedly unpopular BvS or MoS. Hopefully it just makes enough that DC can keep doing what they're doing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 15:07:35


Post by: Mr Morden


 Alpharius wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
I can't believe how wrong the critics are about this film.


You're not wrong there!

And as expected, if it made even a dollar less that 'projections', it was going to get the 'disappointment' and/or 'failure' label ASAP... oh well!



That's critics for you - worthless.

Hopefully see it this Friday when their are less (usually annoying) people in the cinema.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 15:20:28


Post by: gorgon


 Alpharius wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
I can't believe how wrong the critics are about this film.


You're not wrong there!

And as expected, if it made even a dollar less that 'projections', it was going to get the 'disappointment' and/or 'failure' label ASAP... oh well!


I read an article (from Collider?) that called JL "DC's latest catastrophe." I came to the conclusion a while ago that negative, melodramatic headlines and stories about DC movies must generate LOTS of clicks. If you remember, the usual suspects also laid in wait for WW and tried to start trouble -- 'Armpitgate', etc. -- until that film turned out to be a smash hit and little was able stick to it.

Then again, I saw an article from UPROXX about JL's box office that pointed out that the film is liable to have some legs, given the generally good audience scores, the lack of competition between now and the SW premiere, and the holiday coming up this weekend. But for WB, I suspect it's not so much about the BO horse race, as it is about not harming the prospects of future films and the potential billions at stake there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Hopefully see it this Friday when their are less (usually annoying) people in the cinema.


Morden, I'm gonna guess that you'll actually like this one.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 15:29:15


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Hopefully see it this Friday when their are less (usually annoying) people in the cinema.


Morden, I'm gonna guess that you'll actually like this one.


Hopefully - Wonder Woman was fantastic and I enjoyed most of Suicide Squad so this looks like a good continuation.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 15:55:13


Post by: Elemental


Saw it yesterday, and I enjoyed it--nothing earthshaking, but solid superhero action with interesting and likeable characters.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 18:21:53


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Paradigm wrote:
I do find it quite strange that this movie has had a far more positive reception than BvS or Suicide Squad but has a lower opening weekend than any of the other DCEU films.

While money certainly isn't everything, and there are a lot of other factors (Thor still being on probably has a significant impact, I'm not sure any of the others released this close to a direct competitor), I wonder why JL is a good $10 million behind the others when it's had the most positive reception besides Wonder Woman, audience-wise.

Is that large a chunk of the potential audience just burnt out on DC, or comic book movies in general?

Is this release slot just the wrong time of year? Were MoS, BvS and SS more of a success than people want to admit?

But it'll be interesting to see how this does in the long run, especially if the more conventional style of Justice League actually makes less than the more original but supposedly unpopular BvS or MoS. Hopefully it just makes enough that DC can keep doing what they're doing.


JL's 39% is indeed higher than SS & BvS 26-27%, but still less than half of WW's & T:R's 92%, and less than MoS' 55%. JL didn't have much competition, not even from Thor, so I'd have thought JL would have done better.

I suspect Warner's history of bad DC movies is what's turning people away, but maybe they rebound this week - Thanksgiving usually has a lot of movie traffic. Those DC movies were more expensive to produce and market, but less profitable at the box office, so not really a success. SS was an absolutely terrible film, F4 bad.

I think JL will be lucky to pull WW or BvS numbers, given that Disney has a Star Wars movie coming out Dec 14. With Lucas out, Star Wars is going to be Marvel good. IMO, Warner Execs have just ruined the franchise, and would have done far better to just let the directors tell their stories, even if it put JL off by another year or two.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/20 23:21:03


Post by: Easy E


I have to admit, the preview did nothing for me, and the DCEU has been lackluster so I am not rushing out to see this.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/21 03:28:57


Post by: sebster


All the past JL films I've seen with a mate, we've double dated. He's not very interested in this one, he says he is burned out on comic book movies, and isn't that interested in Batman when he goes outside the street level stuff. I tend to agree, but I've still got to see it- I've never not seen a Batman film at the movies.


 Alpharius wrote:
And as expected, if it made even a dollar less that 'projections', it was going to get the 'disappointment' and/or 'failure' label ASAP... oh well!


My general rule is that critics who just talk about the movies, what was strong and what was weak, they're generally pretty good. I don't agree with all of them, but it's generally useful to hear them talk.

But then there's critics who pretend to be industry players, who make terrible analysis of box office returns* and declaring a film a huge hit or total failure (and never anything in between). They then go on to assume the assume a film is good or bad based on their opinion of its profitability, not the actual qualities of the film. Those critics are a total waste of time, and seem more interested in pretend insider gossip than in actual movies.

Actually, that exact same rule of thumb works for fans as well as critics.



*For instance, people are comparing the return for JL to the latest Thor movie, as if beating Thor means WB would get more money or something. It's a hopeless argument made by people who confuse cheering for a team with business. The key number for JL is the $250m to $300m budget, which means the film will need to make somewhere around $600m to break even, or if it doesn't reach that then it will have to sell a lot of Christmas toys.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/21 10:00:48


Post by: AndrewGPaul


I ignore "scores". x out of 5 isn't a review, and doesn't tell me anything useful about a film. Same goes for the aggregator sites. You need to actually read (or listen to / watch) a review, IMO, to understand where the critic is coming from, and then see if you agree with them. Some guy with a blog might give a film 1/5 because it's not "true to the source material", which is completely irrelevant to the quality of a film IMO.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/21 10:17:13


Post by: Paradigm


Aggregate sites, especially RT are worthless. When you consider that RT only take 'positive' and 'negative' scores, it means that a film with a 33% rating might be

a) a film that everyone agrees is meh, with most giving it a 5/10 and a third giving it 6/10

Or b) A film that a lot of people hated and gave 1/10, but a third of the audience loved and gave 10/10.

Now obviously that's a hyperbolic example, but it's clear that those two are very different movies with very different levels of appeal, but if you just go by RT as a lot of media seems happy to do, they'd come out the same.

With actual reviews, it depends entirely on the reviewer and whether I trust them to know what they're talking about. For example, if I want a rough idea of how a comic book movie is, I'd check someone like Chris Stuckmann on youtube or The Weekly Planet podcast or Empire magazine, competent movie reviewers who typically also have an understanding of the source material. By contrast, someone like the BBC's Mark Kermode might be the more accomplished reviewer and surely has a good understanding of film as a medium, but I get the feeling he's never read a comic in his life and therefore is approaching the film from a very different angle to what I'll be doing, therefore his review is worth less to me.

There's probably an element of confirmation bias there, but I also think a review from someone who has similar tastes to you is a better indicator of whether you'll like a film (or book/show/comic/album ect) than one from someone who doesn't. Especially with adaptations; to use JL as an example, a lot of the shortcomings as a film are balanced out by the fact that we've got a cast of characters that in most cases, walked right off their comic pages. There's a joy to seeing that which will matter to a comic fan and won't register to a general movie reviewer. Going even further, I'd be more likely to take the word of a friend who I know shared an interest in the film than a general reviewer, just because initial investment makes such a big difference to how you view a film.

All that said, I rarely bother with reviews before seeing a film anyway; if the premise/trailers aren't enough to convince me then I probably don't want to see it anyway, and equally, bad reviews have never put me off seeing something I wanted to. The only time it really comes up is with stuff that passed me by then shows up on Netflix or Amazon, then I'll do a bit of research just to make sure I'm not wasting my time with it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/21 12:30:33


Post by: Formosa


Watched it last night and while the story is all over the place at times, it was a bloody good romp, go see it and ignore the obviously biased reviews, this is not supposed to be a masterpiece, and it works well as a into to the DCEU.

Its not perfect, dont expect it to be !


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/21 13:04:26


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Saw it yesterday and enjoyed a lot.
Spoiler:
And while I found some niggles (the exposition dialogue at the first few scenes were pretty clunky, and Steppenwolf's CGI rendition was pretty poor, and the purpose of the League seemed to be to amuse Steppenwolf until Superman showed up) the bonding of the team pulled it together. The sweeping shot of Wonder Woman perched on London's 'Justice' was an awesome intro.




Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/22 00:49:25


Post by: Elemental


This is a random observation, but one of my favourite scenes on reflection was the early one with the Amazons:

Spoiler:
Given that they were essentially redshirts with no chance (in-universe or out) of stopping Steppenwolf, there were some pretty badass moments there. And in a peculiar way, it felt progressive, since you very seldom see female characters in that kind of role--female warriors tend to be at least "henchmen" level in terms of dramatic importance, and when anonymous extras are getting blasted through to establish how scary a villain is, they're almost always men.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/22 17:56:41


Post by: Galef


 Elemental wrote:
This is a random observation, but one of my favourite scenes on reflection was the early one with the Amazons:

Spoiler:
Given that they were essentially redshirts with no chance (in-universe or out) of stopping Steppenwolf, there were some pretty badass moments there. And in a peculiar way, it felt progressive, since you very seldom see female characters in that kind of role--female warriors tend to be at least "henchmen" level in terms of dramatic importance, and when anonymous extras are getting blasted through to establish how scary a villain is, they're almost always men.

And yet there has been some controversy about their costume design in JL compared to WW. In WW (directed by a woman) they are modestly armoured and do not show their mid-rift. In JL (directed by men), many of them have more exposed skin.

Take that as you will. Just an observation.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/22 18:43:49


Post by: Compel


That, however, is not the full story. - BBC have a good summary of it. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41983452

Don't get, they could have done better chainmail (well, leather) bikini's but, that snippy headline isn't right.

In every present day scene, the Amazons are armoured just as they were in Wonder Woman. If memory serves, some are significantly more so.

The chainmail bikini scenes are ultimately just blurry background images of a 5 second long flashback to thousands of years ago partway through the film.

However, all that is just a matter of framing the argument correctly. There is still definitely the very valid question of, why the flip did they feel the need to redesign armour for some blurry background shots in a 5 second long flashback to thousands of years ago.

But that doesn't fit a pithy clickbait internet outrage headline.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/22 18:54:30


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


 Compel wrote:
That, however, is not the full story. - BBC have a good summary of it. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41983452

Don't get, they could have done better chainmail (well, leather) bikini's but, that snippy headline isn't right.

In every present day scene, the Amazons are armoured just as they were in Wonder Woman. If memory serves, some are significantly more so.

The chainmail bikini scenes are ultimately just blurry background images of a 5 second long flashback to thousands of years ago partway through the film.

However, all that is just a matter of framing the argument correctly. There is still definitely the very valid question of, why the flip did they feel the need to redesign armour for some blurry background shots in a 5 second long flashback to thousands of years ago.

But that doesn't fit a pithy clickbait internet outrage headline.


Some of the Amazons guarding the passageway to the Motherbox were wearing the leather 'bikinis' or what ever people want to call them. It wasn't really something particularly stood out as 'omg how dare they!" rather more just that might hve been what they had on when they showed up, or it being a site of some significance maybe it was some sort of Priestess thing. Most of the Amazons, in the mordern fight, were wearing more armor than in WW though.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 01:59:53


Post by: AduroT


The only time I really took notice of extra skin on the Amazons were the ones “sealing the gate” and to me it looked less like sexy hot bikini time and more look at how Ripped these ladies are as they swing giant hammers around.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 14:47:30


Post by: kronk


Good movie, worth the price of admission. Not as good as Thor: Bossom Buddies, but still better than that crapfest called Suicide Squad.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 14:52:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Dude.

That time Professor Finbarr 'OH CRIKEY' McLunatic replaced my eyes with burning, rabid badgers was better than suicide squad.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 16:35:56


Post by: skyth


I liked Suicide Squad better than Justice League. It's really the second best movie in the DCEU...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 16:42:57


Post by: Compel


Even as a DC 'fanboy' I've got to admit that some parts of Squad were ok but most of it was, ick. I watched the DVD again a couple of weeks ago, second time watching the DVD, 3rd time watching the film in general.

And, well, yeah, it's a struggle to watch a lot of it. I've still not finished watching it, to be honest.

Justice League though, I feel like I could pop that DVD on (when it comes out) anytime and have a thoroughly fun and enjoyable couple of hours of ZAP BANG WALLOP.
Hopefully more than a couple of hours, if they add back in some deleted scenes.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 16:52:16


Post by: Paradigm


I take Squad for what it is, which is an ugly, confused mess that doesn't quite know what it wants to be, and yet is still a good laugh and plenty entertaining enough. Though I will concede that it goes downhill after the first half hour or so, on occasion I have watched that opening act then just put on Assault On Arkham...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 19:58:49


Post by: reds8n





so... in the credits ..


" Crispus Allen".... blimey eh ?

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/20/justice-league-crispus-allen-the-spectre/

..only slightly ashamed to say I noticed that.

saw Marc McCLure too -- nice tip o' the hat there but I was looking out for it.


.. Flash speaks Gorilla sign language eh ... wonder who that might come in handy with/against ?



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 20:00:10


Post by: George Spiggott


Why didn't Batman bring his BvS power armour to the fight? It probably would have come in handy.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/24 20:23:05


Post by: Compel


It did kinda get borked a bit...

From the looks of it, he spent a lot of time working on the Flying Fox.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 00:13:43


Post by: Mr Morden


Friends and I saw it tonight and we all thought it was brilliant - great pacing, humour was spot on and everything worked.

I thought it was on a par with the first Avengers film and whilst I enjoyed the recent Thor film allot - this IMO was better, much tighter and more coherent.

Showed once again how useless and worthless crictics are.

The one woman with us did note how they had made the Amazons clothing more skimpy and lingering shots of Diana's ass (ok so us guys noticed as well ) but she was happy with a shirtless henry cavel so all good.

only one minr thing wrong with it.

Spoiler:
they dragged Eisenstein back to stink up another scene with his half assed Joker wannabe Loopy Lex


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 13:18:23


Post by: timetowaste85


My wife and I went to see it last night. We both thoroughly enjoyed it. She thought it was better than Thor: R, I thought they were on par with each other. Thor had a bit TOO many silly moments, but the pacing for this was just right. And Thor also had fun Easter Eggs...if you were a comic/movie junky and caught all the references. The references in JL were enjoyable even if you didn’t know the source material, like WW’s whip on Aquaman (ripped from the cartoon WW movie, used on Steve Trevor), the joke about exploding penguins (Batman Returns), or the mid credits race (from a JL cartoon where Barry and Supes are competing in a race for charity). All great fun, but the source material didn’t matter and wasn’t a requirement for a casual moviegoer.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 13:53:49


Post by: Alpharius


The Superman/Flash race goes back ever further than that - I think it first shows up in the comics in the 60’s!



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 14:46:58


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Paradigm wrote:
With actual reviews, it depends entirely on the reviewer and whether I trust them to know what they're talking about. For example, if I want a rough idea of how a comic book movie is, I'd check someone like Chris Stuckmann on youtube or The Weekly Planet podcast or Empire magazine, competent movie reviewers who typically also have an understanding of the source material. By contrast, someone like the BBC's Mark Kermode might be the more accomplished reviewer and surely has a good understanding of film as a medium, but I get the feeling he's never read a comic in his life and therefore is approaching the film from a very different angle to what I'll be doing, therefore his review is worth less to me.


I completely agree, but from the opposite end, as it were. When it comes to a film (or any other medium, I suppose), I'm interested in whether it's good as a thing in itself. The source material is irrelevant (especially for comic-book movies , as I don't read comics) to me, so a review that concentrates on whether Gadot's Wonder Woman compares well to the character as depicted in the comic, but I am concerned with whether the script's any good, the story is coherent and whether the actors are any good.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 15:46:10


Post by: creeping-deth87


Well I'm definitely going to be breaking the mold here...

Spoiler:


The pacing of this movie was absolutely horrendous. Everything happens at lightning speed because this movie tries to cram way too much gak into its running time, like: introducing THREE new heroes, getting the team together, introducing the villain, establishing how said villain is going to threaten/challenge the team, bringing Superman back to life, explaining the McGuffins, etc.). As a result of having to do all this, this movie has absolutely no room to breathe at all. Everything just progresses as quickly as possible so there's no time to develop any sort of attachment to any of the characters in the movie. It even robs the final confrontation of any sort of weight or gravitas because the whole thing starts and ends too fast.

Other issues I had with this movie: MAJOR continuity problem with Dawn of Justice. Superman and Batman end that film working together to fight Doomsday, and Superman even trusts Batman to go save his mother. Despite this, Justice League goes out of its way to add some sense of foreboding about Batman's fate if Superman is resurrected (i.e. Wonder Woman saying he better not be the first thing Superman sees). Now, when Superman gets resurrected you can explain his hostility on the effects of suddenly being brought back to life by a mysterious McGuffin, but he clearly remembers the events of Dawn of Justice well enough to taunt Batman about his line ('do you bleed?'). If he remembers details like that, there is no way he's not going to remember they were fighting on the same side That entire thing was just incredibly baffling.

There is also a whole lot of stupid people doing stupid gak in this movie. Bruce talks to Alfred and mentions his name in front of the criminal at the start of the movie, Lois actually blurts out Clark's name with a cop standing right next to her when she gets to where the team is fighting, and Steppenwolf getting the last motherbox is absolutely comical. Literally just beams in and out after the fight with Superman.

The balance of the characters was also pretty off. Batman felt pretty useless, with Cyborg just taking over control of his toys and everyone else totally outclassing him physically. His only actual purpose in the film is to get the team together. By contrast, Superman was so insanely strong that he didn't actually need the rest of the team, and the writing just threw in the civilians for Clark to save so Steppenwolf could get a few more licks in with the rest of the team before they defeat him.

I would personally be a lot more forgiving of these faults if we didn't already have the exceptional teamup movie that was Avengers, which didn't have to introduce ANY new characters, didn't have to introduce the villain, and didn't have to introduce the McGuffin. Every character is already established and fleshed out and the Tesseract has an entire movie devoted to itself. It's definitely not a perfect movie by any means, but it flows much better than Justice League. It's a shame too because I actually rather like DC, have played all the Arkham games to death, and really enjoyed Wonder Woman's solo movie, but everything else they've put out just feels so rushed and lifeless. Hopefully they right the ship soon.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 16:43:52


Post by: Ahtman


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Well I'm definitely going to be breaking the mold here...


Most of what you said has already been mentioned so I don't see any danger to any molds here.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 16:49:28


Post by: Compel


I think it's more of a case of a lot of those issues are more less significant for other people, than something significantly. I don't want to say 'nitpicks' exactly, because that trivialises that they were big issues for you, but a few of them, for me, were no real issues of note and more something that could be improved for next time.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 17:52:47


Post by: Mr Morden


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Well I'm definitely going to be breaking the mold here...

Spoiler:


The pacing of this movie was absolutely horrendous. Everything happens at lightning speed because this movie tries to cram way too much gak into its running time, like: introducing THREE new heroes, getting the team together, introducing the villain, establishing how said villain is going to threaten/challenge the team, bringing Superman back to life, explaining the McGuffins, etc.). As a result of having to do all this, this movie has absolutely no room to breathe at all. Everything just progresses as quickly as possible so there's no time to develop any sort of attachment to any of the characters in the movie. It even robs the final confrontation of any sort of weight or gravitas because the whole thing starts and ends too fast.

Other issues I had with this movie: MAJOR continuity problem with Dawn of Justice. Superman and Batman end that film working together to fight Doomsday, and Superman even trusts Batman to go save his mother. Despite this, Justice League goes out of its way to add some sense of foreboding about Batman's fate if Superman is resurrected (i.e. Wonder Woman saying he better not be the first thing Superman sees). Now, when Superman gets resurrected you can explain his hostility on the effects of suddenly being brought back to life by a mysterious McGuffin, but he clearly remembers the events of Dawn of Justice well enough to taunt Batman about his line ('do you bleed?'). If he remembers details like that, there is no way he's not going to remember they were fighting on the same side That entire thing was just incredibly baffling.

There is also a whole lot of stupid people doing stupid gak in this movie. Bruce talks to Alfred and mentions his name in front of the criminal at the start of the movie, Lois actually blurts out Clark's name with a cop standing right next to her when she gets to where the team is fighting, and Steppenwolf getting the last motherbox is absolutely comical. Literally just beams in and out after the fight with Superman.

The balance of the characters was also pretty off. Batman felt pretty useless, with Cyborg just taking over control of his toys and everyone else totally outclassing him physically. His only actual purpose in the film is to get the team together. By contrast, Superman was so insanely strong that he didn't actually need the rest of the team, and the writing just threw in the civilians for Clark to save so Steppenwolf could get a few more licks in with the rest of the team before they defeat him.

I would personally be a lot more forgiving of these faults if we didn't already have the exceptional teamup movie that was Avengers, which didn't have to introduce ANY new characters, didn't have to introduce the villain, and didn't have to introduce the McGuffin. Every character is already established and fleshed out and the Tesseract has an entire movie devoted to itself. It's definitely not a perfect movie by any means, but it flows much better than Justice League. It's a shame too because I actually rather like DC, have played all the Arkham games to death, and really enjoyed Wonder Woman's solo movie, but everything else they've put out just feels so rushed and lifeless. Hopefully they right the ship soon.


Obviously its all subjective as its a movie but IMO

Spoiler:

Pacing - thought it was bang on - it had lots to do and did them well without the extra hour that directors like Nolan would have spun it out to without anything extra being gained. For me two hours is a long film and this did not wast e any of it which makes a nice change

Dawn of Justice was a poor film in terms of plot adn one they had to reference but they minimised the damage - mainly be keeping Eisnberg off screen unitl they regurgetated him in the second spolier.

My take on Supermans awakening was that he was confused and had fragmentary memories - eg the "do you bleed line" Its certianly a lot less contrived than the Civil War hero fight.

Secret identiy - again my headcnanon is that many people have figured this out anyway Raising Superman was needed to have any chance at Stepenwolf and his army and so loosing the Motherbox at that point was fine and served the plot. I didn't really understand where Stepenwolf was teleporting to and from and assume it was the space ship he left on?

Batman was the organiser - without him nothing would have got done - he is similar to Hawkeye and Black Widow - they are fighting out of their league in terms of sheer power but doing what they can. Hawkeye is only really introduced in Avengers as is that incarnation of Banner/Hulk, Black Widow had a bit part in Iron Man 3 but thats it. Only Tony Stark, Thor and Cap had been done before Avengers.

I love Avengers - its a fanatstic film - great plot, characters, pacing, hunour and I felt JLA was at the same level. It may have helped that I know virtually nothing about DC comics characters apart from the big ones - Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman and thats really from other media - film, TV and the like.





Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/25 18:06:43


Post by: timetowaste85


Yeah, biggest glaring issue I can see is Bats naming Alfred in front of a goon. Other than that? Issues are “meh”. They did a good job of making use of everyone’s talents, and not really making anyone seem useless.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 06:13:51


Post by: Just Tony


Unless he said "Alfred Pennyworth", then I'll guess that it wouldn't matter in the long run.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 06:57:46


Post by: epronovost


I would say Justice League was fine in general. It was enjoyable and watched itself pretty well. I expected a movie clocking at almost three hours when I learned they cut it down to a little bit under 2 hours. I was rather skeptical about the movie due to three superheroes and one supervillain needed to be introduced during that time frame.

I enjoyed pretty muh all six heroes to various degree. Wonder Woman was expectedly excellent. While Batman was still depressing, he was at least bearable. Cyborg was weird. I expect him to be "the Spock" of the group due to his cyborg nature and the fact he's supposed to be a genius student, but came out more like a mildly depressed athlete which is somewhat fine. Aquaman was...weirder. Obviously, being played by Momoa means the character was supposed to be a sort of barbarian king (a water themed barbarian king I would say), but he felt more like a sarcastic, pessimistic bruiser. He lacked a little bit of nobility and a proper asskicking moment. I had heard lots of good stuff about the Flash, but found him rather uninteresting and unfunny despite a few good quips. I am not a big fan of the hyperactive, anxious nerd they made him out to be. I prefered the immature, strangely clever doofus he was in the animated version of Justice League. Superman was finally not so bad.

Despite rather good dialogue and at least competant acting, the movie did had several major flaws that amount nearly as sins in that type of movie. The villain, Steppenwolf, was incredibly bland and unthreatening. He felt about as powerful and threatening as Ares who was defeated by Wonder Woman alone. His motivation were obscure and glossed over. His villainous quality are almost entirely informed traits. The only clearly cruel thing he makes is make a sarcasm about people pleading they have a family to not get killed, else, he is just like any stock warlord. The lack of a good villain prevents the movie from ever reaching a point of climax and the entire thing is very anti-climactic.

Superman's return is also misshandled. despite Batman insistence that they needed him to defeat Steppenwolf (frankly, they barely gave it a shot in a less than ideal circomstance and that was without the presence of Aquaman; Wonder Woman did a pretty good job at holding him off alone). The portrayal of Superman in this movie seems to make him much more powerful than he was in BvS. So much so that he basically can defeat the entire Justice League without breaking a sweat and the villain even more easily. In resume, once Superman returns, without any interferance from the villain, its automatic and easy victory for the good guy. Making Superman so powerful he makes the entire Justice League obsolete or into cheerleaders is a big problem. In a team up, every hero should bring something to the table that is special in which they are, evidently the very best. Superman transgress that rule. The movie would have been much better served by Superman being resurrected by the villain to help him defeat the League, thus forcing them to wrestle him out of the villain's control. This would have raised the stakes and could have made the scenario a bit more poignant. Instead, we got a half baked "Superman is against us" moment.

Still, it could have been much worst and I will certainly keep watching the DCU movies. I am pretty eager for the upcomming Aquaman since the character could certainly be interesting in his solo movie and the already announced Wonder Woman II can hardly be bad considering who is involved in it so far (a simply wonder who is going to be the villain: Circe or Cheetah?).


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 12:13:28


Post by: Paradigm


Steppenwolf is yet another example of how this film severely suffered from being cut down so heavily. I saw the other day that the actor behind him has said in early versions (which he did record lines and mo-cap for) Steppenwolf had a whole sub-arc that totally changed the dynamic of his character, essentially he was on a 'last warning from Darkseid', hence his desperation to take Earth this time and explaining why what happens to him at the end of the final fight happens.

Spoiler:

Just that detail changes the whole dynamic of his story; in the cut we got, it's an unqualified victory where the bad guy gets zapped off into space by his own army and poetic justice is served. Go back to that other version and what the League think is a smart trick, making him feel fear and thus being taken by the Parademons back to Apokolips is basically them sentencing him to torture and inevitable death at the hands of the most evil being in the universe... Not that it makes him sympathetic, but it at least introduces some stakes on both sides that qualify the cost of victory and defeat.


Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 12:27:48


Post by: Mr Morden


 Paradigm wrote:
Steppenwolf is yet another example of how this film severely suffered from being cut down so heavily. I saw the other day that the actor behind him has said in early versions (which he did record lines and mo-cap for) Steppenwolf had a whole sub-arc that totally changed the dynamic of his character, essentially he was on a 'last warning from Darkseid', hence his desperation to take Earth this time and explaining why what happens to him at the end of the final fight happens.

Spoiler:

Just that detail changes the whole dynamic of his story; in the cut we got, it's an unqualified victory where the bad guy gets zapped off into space by his own army and poetic justice is served. Go back to that other version and what the League think is a smart trick, making him feel fear and thus being taken by the Parademons back to Apokolips is basically them sentencing him to torture and inevitable death at the hands of the most evil being in the universe... Not that it makes him sympathetic, but it at least introduces some stakes on both sides that qualify the cost of victory and defeat.


Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


Ughh god no - these films are already long enough - the added character bit you mention for the Stepenwulf guy would take another 5 mins - tops.

IMO The "established" tone of the universe (Nolan and Synder) was the problem - its dull, lacks any kind of heart, avoids human characterisation, or actual meaning and depth in favour of grimdark for the sake of it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 12:37:23


Post by: Paradigm


I think we have to just agree to differ there; I rate Snyder and Nolan as exceptional directors* and Whedon as a competent one at best, consider 2 hours a very short film and I'd argue it's JL that lacks meaning and 'human characterisation' in favour of making everyone 2D archetypes with no development over the course of the film while its predecessors handled those areas exceptionally well.

But each to their own! The film certainly does deliver what a lot of people wanted. Actually, I enjoyed it a great deal, but I still feel robbed of what I think I personally would have found a much more enjoyable and worthwhile film. And I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment, I've seen a lot of commentary online about how even people that weren't massive fans of Snyder still feel JL's departure from his tone is to its detriment, and there is a sizeable campaign (around 138,000 signatures thus far) to get a more complete cut of Snyder's version of the home release.


*I saw Snyder's Watchmen for the first time a few days after JL... the gulf in quality between that and Whedon's version of JL is immense. You can say the source material had a hand in that, but even just as a director it's clear to me that Snyder demonstrates an understanding of cinema as an art that Whedon just doesn't get.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 14:53:28


Post by: Mr Morden


 Paradigm wrote:
I think we have to just agree to differ there; I rate Snyder and Nolan as exceptional directors* and Whedon as a competent one at best, consider 2 hours a very short film and I'd argue it's JL that lacks meaning and 'human characterisation' in favour of making everyone 2D archetypes with no development over the course of the film while its predecessors handled those areas exceptionally well.

But each to their own! The film certainly does deliver what a lot of people wanted. Actually, I enjoyed it a great deal, but I still feel robbed of what I think I personally would have found a much more enjoyable and worthwhile film. And I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment, I've seen a lot of commentary online about how even people that weren't massive fans of Snyder still feel JL's departure from his tone is to its detriment, and there is a sizeable campaign (around 138,000 signatures thus far) to get a more complete cut of Snyder's version of the home release.


*I saw Snyder's Watchmen for the first time a few days after JL... the gulf in quality between that and Whedon's version of JL is immense. You can say the source material had a hand in that, but even just as a director it's clear to me that Snyder demonstrates an understanding of cinema as an art that Whedon just doesn't get.

Yep its inherently subjective.

I see Nolan and Whedon as very different directors - Whedon is all about people and characters (and that appeals to me) - Nolan is said to be about big ideas – but he has major issues with actually portraying people – watching various of his films I find they are bland and with very little humanity, especially women. Whedon is the opposite.

Both Nolan and Snyder love imagery - I really loved Sucker Punch and considered a far superior film to the much lauded Inception which I hated (*). I have no interest in seeing any more Nolan films, will see what Synder comes up with and look forward to Wheedon film.

My perfect length of film is about an hour and half but 2 hours is tolerable depending on the pacing and the longer films I enjoy are mostly older films from the middle of the last century.

I like Watchmen - in fact much more than the comic.

(*) I found it very much style over substance with a languid, plodding pace, a poor structure and narrative rules that shifted far to obviously to fit the needs of the plot. There are two women in the whole film as far as I recall and neither have anything approaching an actual character – not that the men are any better. There is no humour or in fact any reason for me to engage with or indeed care about anyone in the entire film. I think that is what some people like about it – it’s not about people – it’s about an idea and no one matters within that structure.

Back on JL - I think yoi can do alot wth some humour, some knowing looks and banter - much more than telegraphing information or tired monologues- the old show don't tell - Bats vs Sups also had the shockingly awful portrayl of Loopy Lex Luthor - perhaps the worst acting / casting in recent years in any film.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 20:17:23


Post by: Galas


 AduroT wrote:
The only time I really took notice of extra skin on the Amazons were the ones “sealing the gate” and to me it looked less like sexy hot bikini time and more look at how Ripped these ladies are as they swing giant hammers around.


Exactly, the bikini-amazons where the ones with the hammer, and it was obviously to show how muscular they where. It was literally, something like 15 seconds.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/26 22:22:44


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I’ve not seen Man of Steel, but I’ve enjoyed all the other films to the apparent consternation of my friends. I know they’re flawed, yet I find them good viewing that passes the time well. BvS was decent enough that I sought out the extended version, Suicide Swuad I liked for the music and general goofiness. Wonder Woman was properly good, and Justice League was enjoyable too. I felt it struggled to get going with a lot of things being established at the start but it came together. It was a bit more colourful and had some more comic book humour after Snyder trying to make everything as po-faced as possible. I think the series is going the right direction after a very rocky start. I think Justice League clearly showed the signs of reshooting and being butchered in post production, hopefully it will be fleshed out with a considerably extended cut.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 03:03:00


Post by: stanman


I think most of the JL characters are well enough established that they don't need individual films to set their backstory. I don't think JL suffered at all for not having origin films for Aquaman or Flash, while they work well as part of the team dynamic I've never been all that excited by either of them that I'd want to watch a film exclusively about them.

The BvsS was terrible and trying to tie this film with it makes for a bit of disconnect but outside of that I enjoyed it as I just watched it a self contained piece and put aside the other movies. Of the DC films I enjoyed WW the most and I thought in JL she was probably the best carry over since her film wasn't as convoluted and she didn't conflict with her origin story or the minor appearance in BvsS.

I thought Steppenwolf was pretty flat, the cg on him wasn't impressive and they just should have used some practical effects to do his costume. I also fail to see how once he loses his axe he can so be dragged down by his own minions so quickly. Yeah I get that they swarm to fear but fething Batman was able to beat several and he has normal human strength meanwhile Steppenwolf is trading full strength blows with both Aquaman and Wonderwoman but can't best his own underlings. The varying threat levels of villains in films always bugs me but it seems to happen in all superhero flicks regardless of being DC or Marvel.

Overall I enjoyed it but I didn't go in with super high expectations. Comic movies are getting a bit meh for me as like they comics they are very formulaic which becomes even more apparent with each film they crank out. I wish they'd dial back the speed of the releases a bit and reinvest some of that time and put it back into the writing.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 07:47:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.

Snyder and Whedon have totally different styles, and I'm doubtful that Snyder's action and weightiness are a good match for Whedon's lightness and banter. While Snyder's films could use a little lightening in tone (and color palette!), jump cutting to a newly-written Whedon scene probably isn't the best way to do it.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 09:53:50


Post by: Paradigm


To be honest, I don't see why they even considered Whedon to rework JL (well, I do, WB wanted a carbon copy of Avengers Assemble, and they got it). To my mind, the sensible thing would have been handing it over to Patty Jenkins, the extremely competent director who made the only universally acclaimed DC movie thus far.

Whedon was never a match for this universe and it's tone and style, and was clearly only considered because he made 1.5 good Marvel movies WB wanted DC to ape.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 10:08:43


Post by: Compel


I'd guess part of it is because of overlapping timelines. - People forget how long films take to make, and the biggest chunk of that can be in pre and post production.

In other words, Patty was almost certainly still doing things on Wonder Woman at the time.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 13:15:27


Post by: Bran Dawri


 Paradigm wrote:
To my mind, the sensible thing would have been handing it over to Patty Jenkins, the extremely competent director who made the only universally acclaimed DC movie thus far.


Um, The Dark Knight was pretty good and pretty much universally praised as well...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 13:22:27


Post by: Paradigm


Well yes. But I mean from this current iteration. Nolan would have been ideal, but so far as I know he's out of the comic book game these days and at the time Synder left, was probably still working on Dunkirk. Jenkins meanwhile has made the DCEU's only real hit to date, is a very talented director and I'm pretty sure WW had already premiered by the time Snyder left, so she wasn't currently working on anything for them.

Frankly, if and when JL2 happens, she has to be one of the front-runners for the director's job there as well.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 14:00:36


Post by: Mr Morden


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.

Snyder and Whedon have totally different styles, and I'm doubtful that Snyder's action and weightiness are a good match for Whedon's lightness and banter. While Snyder's films could use a little lightening in tone (and color palette!), jump cutting to a newly-written Whedon scene probably isn't the best way to do it.


Thank god for that - A third film of that trilogy would likely have killed the franchise.

Man of Steel was a mess - it jarringly went from a sub par Flash Gordan Setting to a dull and despressing version of Superman and his world, lurching from one plot hole to another.

Bats vs Sups could have been better - the film is ruined by the antics of one actor for which I blame the director equally in allowing or even perhaps encouraging such a travesty.

JLA continues the breath of fresh air that Wonder Woman swept through the tired, heartless and dingy world that Nolan and Synder had created - ironically only really possible by the fantastic Burton film, unfortunately in following his lead both directors seem to ditched the idea of creating characters and having humour enhance the darker parts of a film by contrast.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 15:56:13


Post by: gorgon


Gotta set some records straight here.

Man of Steel *WAS* Nolan's film. He cooked up the idea and story with his brother and David Goyer when they were working on the DK trilogy. He chose Snyder to direct it, but it was very much Nolan's take on Superman and his fingerprints are all over the film.

Importantly -- and unlike Iron Man -- they never intended MoS to be part of any 'universe'. Chris Nolan is famously against the idea, believing that these heroes work best in individual films. And I'll go to my grave saying that MoS isn't even 25% as dark and dour as internet hyperbole makes it out to be. It's mostly shot in bright sunlight, Clark isn't clinically depressed, and yes, he even smiles at different moments throughout the film. The ball is also teed up at the end of that film for a potentially great sequel. However...

What happened after MoS was about the studio pushing for a cinematic universe, and handing the ball to Snyder to make it happen (Nolan was offered the role of DCEU 'godfather' and understandably turned it down). Things went awry (IMO) because the studio didn't understand (and so probably didn't tell Snyder) what they needed, while Snyder was more interested in telling a pseudo-Dark Knight Returns story instead of a crowdpleasing, audience-friendly first true entry into the DCEU. Snyder's BvS should have been an 'Elseworlds' film and not the DCEU launch.

And now WB has come back around to listening to Nolan's advice, since the DCEU going forward will be more about director-driven individual films and a very loosely-linked 'universe'. And I think that's a MUCH better plan for WB than trying to catch Marvel's lightning in a bottle a second time.

But MoS 2 needs to get greenlit. Like yesterday.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 18:21:55


Post by: skyth


MoS had several references to BvS.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 18:26:22


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.


Thank god for that - A third film of that trilogy would likely have killed the franchise.


On the contrary. Snyder is the only director to ever "get" that Superman is a literal God made manifest on Earth.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 18:46:31


Post by: Mr Morden


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.


Thank god for that - A third film of that trilogy would likely have killed the franchise.


On the contrary. Snyder is the only director to ever "get" that Superman is a literal God made manifest on Earth.


And did nothing with it - well except have some pathetic Joker wananbe whine about every moment he capered on screen.

Take the Courtroom scene - I actually thought that was goping to be interesting - but no the gibbering fool was involved so nothing intersting came of it.

As to divinity - not only were their other actual gods on the world but the nature of divinity in fiction is portrayed in such a wide range of forms that being a "god" -

JLA establishes that he is immensely powerful - like others on the world but he is not a increasingly detached godling like Dr Manhatten or indeed a all powerful god. He is just a man with tremendous powers.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 18:52:10


Post by: gorgon


 skyth wrote:
MoS had several references to BvS.


If you mean the Wayne Industries logo on the satellite, note that it was the Wayne logo from Nolan's films. It was an easter egg, not a hint about a future film that wasn't even an idea at the time.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 18:58:35


Post by: Compel


 Mr Morden wrote:

JLA establishes that he is immensely powerful - like others on the world but he is not a increasingly detached godling like Dr Manhatten or indeed a all powerful god. He is just a man with tremendous powers.


And I think this is going to become a major aspect of interest and contrast in "The Doomsday Clock."



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 20:22:25


Post by: Easy E


I saw it this weekend....

Spoiler:

The DC movie universe has a Superman problem.

Once he showed up, the movie bogged down. He essentially did all the heavy lifting, despite their best efforts to try and dress it up as a "team" effort.

I mean the bulk of the movei was about "Superman" this and "Superman" that.

Superman is an enormous writing challenge as a stand-alone, but he is even harder as part of a team. The only "threats" to him as a hero are magic and kyrptonite; both pretty hard to come by. Exposed to these, and he needs a team.

The only other "threats" to him have to be moral/ethical (i.e. make him question his own beliefs and analysis/paralysis him
) or create threats to people/things that he cares about.

Worse, I have not seen anything that really makes him that compelling. The closest thing was when Bruce Wayne states that "Clark Kent is more human than I am." However, I couldn;t believe that based on what I had seen int eh DC movie universe so far. Wonder Woman and Batman are much more interesting chracters so far.

Those are tough things to write to in a tentpole, blockbbuster, hero team movie.



Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 20:22:46


Post by: LunarSol


Snyder is a very talented director for the most part. He's got a great eye for creating the cinematic equivalent of splash panels to screen and is one of the best in the business when it comes to visual continuity, particularly in action scenes.

The primary issue with using him as the architect of the DCEU is simply that is love of comics mostly lies in deconstructionist works of the late 80's. Almost all of his work has a fatalistic leaning that don't really support sequels and spin offs. They're stories about decay and collapse that feel cheapened by the promise of another story.

I've quite enjoyed Moviebob's overlong analysis of BvS. It's quite interesting as its less about getting hung up on things that are bad about the film and more about rooting out the good ideas at the heart of it and explaining why the film fails to get them across. It's an interesting series from a film dissection point of view at the very least.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 20:50:52


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.


Thank god for that - A third film of that trilogy would likely have killed the franchise.


On the contrary. Snyder is the only director to ever "get" that Superman is a literal God made manifest on Earth.


And did nothing with it - well except have some pathetic Joker wananbe whine about every moment he capered on screen.


That's 100% Warner making Snyder's Superman movie into a Batman movie. Don't blame Snyder for Warner's meddling.

Snyder's Superman is MoS. Everything after that is Warner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
Snyder is a very talented director for the most part. He's got a great eye for creating the cinematic equivalent of splash panels to screen and is one of the best in the business when it comes to visual continuity, particularly in action scenes.

The primary issue with using him as the architect of the DCEU is simply that is love of comics mostly lies in deconstructionist works of the late 80's. Almost all of his work has a fatalistic leaning that don't really support sequels and spin offs. They're stories about decay and collapse that feel cheapened by the promise of another story.

I've quite enjoyed Moviebob's overlong analysis of BvS. It's quite interesting as its less about getting hung up on things that are bad about the film and more about rooting out the good ideas at the heart of it and explaining why the film fails to get them across. It's an interesting series from a film dissection point of view at the very least.


I'd agree with basically all of this. Snyder shoots action sequences better than just about anybody else in the industry, without having to resort to tricks or cuts. They're amazingly clean, and probably not at all unrelated to his love for comics. His ability to recreate an iconic full-page panel is unparalleled.

Snyder never wanted to be the DCEU architect - that label got foisted on him because he was the only guy directing DC Comics movies at the time, the only person in the entire DC Warner empire who actually liked comics at all. And to be fair, Warner being dominated by grimdark Batman being their only success for decades makes it hard to have other successful stories. Especially when something "light" like extra-campy Batman & Robin is an absolute disaster.

And now, I'm going to hunt down the Moviebob analysis. I'm always interested to read informed film critique. But what I'd really love is for Snyder to be able to honestly say WTF happened with BvS and JL, what his original intent was, because neither of those films are anything like what Snyder shoots on his own.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 21:16:04


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
Snyder is a very talented director for the most part. He's got a great eye for creating the cinematic equivalent of splash panels to screen and is one of the best in the business when it comes to visual continuity, particularly in action scenes.

The primary issue with using him as the architect of the DCEU is simply that is love of comics mostly lies in deconstructionist works of the late 80's.


I can agree with all of this.

It's like in their desperation, WB turned to a man they didn't truly understand. Or something like that.


 Easy E wrote:
I saw it this weekend....

Spoiler:

The DC movie universe has a Superman problem.

Once he showed up, the movie bogged down. He essentially did all the heavy lifting, despite their best efforts to try and dress it up as a "team" effort.

I mean the bulk of the movei was about "Superman" this and "Superman" that.

Superman is an enormous writing challenge as a stand-alone, but he is even harder as part of a team. The only "threats" to him as a hero are magic and kyrptonite; both pretty hard to come by. Exposed to these, and he needs a team.

The only other "threats" to him have to be moral/ethical (i.e. make him question his own beliefs and analysis/paralysis him
) or create threats to people/things that he cares about.

Worse, I have not seen anything that really makes him that compelling. The closest thing was when Bruce Wayne states that "Clark Kent is more human than I am." However, I couldn;t believe that based on what I had seen int eh DC movie universe so far. Wonder Woman and Batman are much more interesting chracters so far.

Those are tough things to write to in a tentpole, blockbbuster, hero team movie.



I think it's hard to discuss the film without discussing its twisted history. Steppenwolf was a tin can and a subpar boss villain because he was only ever intended to be the undercard to a Darkseid fight. Then BvS got the reviews and reaction it got, and everything changed. For all we know, WW and company may have defeated Steppenwolf on their own in the original screenplay, only to be faced by Darkseid with an evil Superman in tow. In fact, I believe the signs point that way.

I don't quite agree with the premise of your 'Superman problem', just because the character has been handled well at times, and even in the context of team-up stories. I don't think it's necessarily easy, but I also think it's hard to take any real lessons from what is clearly a Frankenstein monster of a story and movie.

Personally, I think someone is always going to be unhappy with how Superman is portrayed. *shrug*


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 21:28:00


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 LunarSol wrote:
I've quite enjoyed Moviebob's overlong analysis of BvS. It's quite interesting as its less about getting hung up on things that are bad about the film and more about rooting out the good ideas at the heart of it and explaining why the film fails to get them across. It's an interesting series from a film dissection point of view at the very least.


Holy crap. I need over an hour to watch that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9juReoJxI0&index=2&list=PL1WoYVvJ35Xqeh6JGw1GPMB_HvxB8mSFe


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 22:12:27


Post by: Compel


The "Superman problem" isn't really a problem when it comes to Justice League style situations. If we're in that sort of situation, then they're up against a ridiculously massive threat anyway.

For example, lets say, hypothetically, you have a villain that is literally one of the New Gods. It would stand to reason that this villain would have, at the very least, a magical weapon.

Because he's a New God.

You could then have a situation where a strategist, maybe say, someone really clever, who was like, the worlds greatest detective, developing a plan to say, remove this magical weapon, which, say, was bladed and cut into the strongest guy of the team, who, despite being the strongest, isn't actually a trained warrior or soldier... While other members of the team are.


You could then set up this situation where you have people working this plan, using their specialist roles to accomplish this goal, allowing the strongest teammember to perform the final knockout.


Now, Justice League wasn't exactly that film, but it showed real signs of getting there. And it showed the potential. Broadly speaking, the Justice League did perform something similar to their roles, that can then be refined and developed in future films.

I still stand by my claim of it's a fun action film with superheroes punching things.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 22:18:26


Post by: Ahtman


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Holy crap. I need over an hour to watch that?


Actually it is two parts with each almost an hour and a half a piece so it is closer to three hours. Which is also why I didn't watch it.

I also accidently deleted what I was writing because I hit paste instead of copy so I will try to recap with rewriting entirely. Superman didn't make the other characters useless nor did he do everything. He made everyone's lives easier to be sure, but he didn't replace them. Cyborg couldn't have taken care of the Motherbox alone but with Supe's help and encouragement was able to take care of it. In the end though they still needed Cyborg to do it. Aquaman and Wonder Woman fighting Steppenwolf and the parademons was an uphill battle but, again, with Superman there it went faster. They probably still would have gotten it done but it would have taken longer. Superman got the Flash to go faster then he had before but he didn't make the Flash. There is a reason why Superman is the leader of the JLA (typically) and it isn't just his strength. Very few beings in the Universe are unworried about the Man of Steel and Darksied is one of them. He isn't an idiot though and even in the comics and animated films Darksied tries to minimize his presence or role because of how he effects others.


Also enemies that can fight Superman without magic or Kryptonite (to name a few): Darksied, Mongul, Anti-monitor, and Doomsday. Mr. Mxyzptlk is kind of an odd case as he is from another dimension and it tends to be more tech seeming like magic but they also don't really fight though they are in conflict most of the time.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 22:20:23


Post by: LunarSol


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I've quite enjoyed Moviebob's overlong analysis of BvS. It's quite interesting as its less about getting hung up on things that are bad about the film and more about rooting out the good ideas at the heart of it and explaining why the film fails to get them across. It's an interesting series from a film dissection point of view at the very least.


Holy crap. I need over an hour to watch that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9juReoJxI0&index=2&list=PL1WoYVvJ35Xqeh6JGw1GPMB_HvxB8mSFe


Part 1, sure. Part 2 is another hour and a half with a Part 3 on the way.

Normally I wouldn't have bothered but I had a big painting project I wanted to get through. The length makes it hard to recommend, but I did find it really insightful and worthwhile. It's rare to get an articulate breakdown of something fan related these days and those videos have articulation in spades.

In particular one bit of the second part I appreciate is the comments on faithful adaptations. The argument basically comes down to the idea that Marvel's success has less to do with being recreations of their comics (truthfully, much of the MCU has deviated pretty significantly from the source material) and more that Marvel has faith that audiences won't flinch from things the comics have managed to sell. By comparison, WB and Fox often come across as embarrassed by the origins of their work. It's an interesting distinction from the usual demands to be faithful to the source material, as nothing really sells a performance quite like confidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:

I think it's hard to discuss the film without discussing its twisted history. Steppenwolf was a tin can and a subpar boss villain because he was only ever intended to be the undercard to a Darkseid fight. Then BvS got the reviews and reaction it got, and everything changed. For all we know, WW and company may have defeated Steppenwolf on their own in the original screenplay, only to be faced by Darkseid with an evil Superman in tow. In fact, I believe the signs point that way.

I don't quite agree with the premise of your 'Superman problem', just because the character has been handled well at times, and even in the context of team-up stories. I don't think it's necessarily easy, but I also think it's hard to take any real lessons from what is clearly a Frankenstein monster of a story and movie.

Personally, I think someone is always going to be unhappy with how Superman is portrayed. *shrug*


I assume that the original plan was to have Steppenwolf go to earth specifically to retrieve Superman's body for Darkseid to use as a weapon. Ideally it doesn't matter how good of a villain he is, because he gets to win in the end to set up the sequel. Cutting the film to 1 movie really demanded cutting out Steppenwolf and putting Darkseid in front and center I believe.

As far as Superman foes; the big reason Luthor's revamp post crisis from the mad scientist to the evil suit was that it gave Superman a complex problem to solve. Lex is best when his actions are immoral but not illegal. It makes him a villain that Superman can't beat with his powers.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 22:53:56


Post by: Compel


Yeah, about Lex.

Spoiler:
I do still wish that instead of him stealing the whole Killing Joke Joker escape thing, it had been something like.

"Well, you saw that crazy alien dude, right. - He was mind controlling me, like he did Superman! You saw Superman smashing up the park, right?

Naturally I'm completely innocent, I wouldn't actquite that, dare say... loopy now, would I?

No, of course not.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 23:25:07


Post by: Easy E


 LunarSol wrote:

As far as Superman foes; the big reason Luthor's revamp post crisis from the mad scientist to the evil suit was that it gave Superman a complex problem to solve. Lex is best when his actions are immoral but not illegal. It makes him a villain that Superman can't beat with his powers.


I agree, and that is what makes Supes and Lex much more interesting. Supes actually has to out think him and use his morals as a guide.



Regarding the fact that Superman 'Helped" people do better and make thing sfaster. That is not what I saw in the movie. WW and AQ were losing to Steppenwulf. Cyborg was not able to seperate the boxes. The Flash could not safe the building full of people. Superman could and did. The only reason he needed a team was because he couldn't do everything all at once, only nearly all at once. If my analysis of Supes was based purely on the DC cartoons I have seen featuring Supes ( which is a lot of them) then I would agree that his strength is helping other heroes up their game and as a moral leader; who also happens to be a heavy hitter. I would agree with you Ahtman. However, that is not what i saw onscreen in JL the movie. The team was needed to bring him back to life and a was nice to have around otherwise Supes would of had to make some tough choices about the order he was going to do everything in the final battle.

Finally, afte rall these years why hasn't Supes learned to fight from Black Canary, Wildcat, etc.? Do they ever address that in the comics?


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 23:29:44


Post by: Compel


He does eventually learn to fight a bit (I think his time on Warworld helps) but ultimately, I don't think he has the aptitude, or real inclination for it. Because, well, he's Superman, it's kinda an anathema to him.

On the other hand, I may be projecting my own interpretation of the character onto him.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/27 23:39:56


Post by: JohnHwangDD


See, all of this is what's wrong with Warner. If we had a post-Deadpool R-rated Lobo movie (which the Aquaman dude would have been perfect for), then there's a dude who can go toe-to-toe with Superman in a brawl who's actually fun to watch on his own... Can't have a Steppenwolf standalone movie.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 02:48:01


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
I assume that the original plan was to have Steppenwolf go to earth specifically to retrieve Superman's body for Darkseid to use as a weapon. Ideally it doesn't matter how good of a villain he is, because he gets to win in the end to set up the sequel. Cutting the film to 1 movie really demanded cutting out Steppenwolf and putting Darkseid in front and center I believe.


Oh, I don't think anyone would disagree. I believe the issue was that when BvS premiered, they'd finished pre-production work and Snyder was ready to start shooting. So WB tried to adjust it on the fly, probably to avoid endangering their date and save some money on what already figured to be a very expensive movie. Then they saw what the result was, didn't like it, and brought in Whedon for more adjustments. In retrospect, sure, they were probably better off either sticking with Snyder's vision and eating the turd sandwich in terms of the response it was gonna get, or putting a halt to it all and rethinking/reworking everything.

On that last point, clearly a mistake was in going all in with Snyder and multiple 250+ million dollar films, rather than trying some things and finding out what worked. If JL was even a $200 million film, no one would be sweating the box office.





Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 05:56:19


Post by: ZergSmasher


I just saw Justice League yesterday, and I thought it was just fine. Still not as good as the Marvel movies usually are, but definitely not a steaming pile of crap like some people I know said. I think DC movies will get even better, but Marvel just has such a head start that it's never going to be a close contest between the two. So I say just enjoy the DC movies on their own merits and don't compare them to anything else. I enjoyed Man of Steel, I enjoyed BvS, I enjoyed Wonder Woman, and I enjoyed Justice League. I haven't yet seen Suicide Squad, but the trailers just didn't get me all that excited for it. I'll see it at some point, I'm sure.

Spoiler:
I'm waiting for a new Green Lantern movie. The Ryan Reynolds one was sort of okay I guess, but I'm interested to see one set in the new DC movie universe. We got a little tease of the Green Lantern in the ancient battle scene, but I want more!


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 08:58:56


Post by: Mr Morden


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
Much like Age of Ultron, Whedon's last movie, this should have been at least 20 minutes longer and was cut down by studio interference... though that's a moot point as the version we should have got is the one that concluded Snyder's trilogy, remained true to the established tone of the universe and had even a modicum of gravitas and weight that made it work on more than just one level of shooty punchy bang bang...


We are never going to get Snyder's trilogy. Warner mucked up the 2nd film by making it JL-lite, and then thoroughly blenderized the 3rd by having Whedon heavily rework it.


Thank god for that - A third film of that trilogy would likely have killed the franchise.


On the contrary. Snyder is the only director to ever "get" that Superman is a literal God made manifest on Earth.


And did nothing with it - well except have some pathetic Joker wananbe whine about every moment he capered on screen.


That's 100% Warner making Snyder's Superman movie into a Batman movie. Don't blame Snyder for Warner's meddling.

Snyder's Superman is MoS. Everything after that is Warner.



Warner made him use Eisenstein and the pathetic parody of a charcater that he excreted onto the screen? I was not aware of that, Luthor is a Superman charater not a Batman one, was that all Warner then?





Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 09:20:58


Post by: Just Tony


Am I the only one that doesn't absolutely hate Eisenberg's Lex? Sure, he's frenetic, but you still see the long-thinking genius that is Lex Luthor. And in moments when he's completely focused you see him more as an archetypical Lex. I'm wondering if Supes' return from the grave will give him that focal point, something to direct ALL his energies on, and make him less scattered. I'm thinking so.


I particularly thought the "red capes are coming" scene was very much in line with the Lex I've been reading most of my life. ESPECIALLY if you reread the whole Death/Funeral/Reign/Return of Superman stuff.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 09:37:20


Post by: Paradigm


Yeah, I'd agree with that. Lex as we see him in BvS is manic in large part because he thinks he can get away with being unfocused due to the belief in his own superiority; his plan can't possibly fail in his eyes, so why pay too much attention to how it's unfolding? He's untested and so used to winning that he's fundamentally arrogant to an extreme degree, hence why he almost fails to comprehend how he could possibly have lost.

Going forward, whether that's in a Superman solo movie or JL2 as part of a Legion of Doom/Injustice League type setup, I think he'll be the Lex we are more familiar with. As you say, there are already hints towards that in BvS, just as there are hints to the more familiar Superman that we finally see in JL; the events of that film are the catalyst that changes both of them into their more traditional personas.

That, and he just has a couple of really great scenes in BvS. The meeting with the Senator as you mentioned, and the rooftop confrontation with Superman.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 11:31:48


Post by: Mr Morden


 Paradigm wrote:
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Lex as we see him in BvS is manic in large part because he thinks he can get away with being unfocused due to the belief in his own superiority; his plan can't possibly fail in his eyes, so why pay too much attention to how it's unfolding? He's untested and so used to winning that he's fundamentally arrogant to an extreme degree, hence why he almost fails to comprehend how he could possibly have lost.

Going forward, whether that's in a Superman solo movie or JL2 as part of a Legion of Doom/Injustice League type setup, I think he'll be the Lex we are more familiar with. As you say, there are already hints towards that in BvS, just as there are hints to the more familiar Superman that we finally see in JL; the events of that film are the catalyst that changes both of them into their more traditional personas.

That, and he just has a couple of really great scenes in BvS. The meeting with the Senator as you mentioned, and the rooftop confrontation with Superman.


Not for me - As I said before the court scene was a chance for some intersting stuff about gods and men, laws and superheors etc - but instead we had another stupid plot and pathetic "joke" form an apparently iditoic Loopy Luther - and thats the main issue I had with him beyond his half baked joker impression.

None of his plans make any sense

The court scene which does nothing other than blow up his right hand girl
He does not use media manipulation or similar to try and make Sups look bad.
His plan to make Bats and Sups fight is just bat gak insane (again Joker nonsense) as whoever wins is going to either kill him or maybe just cripple him and throw him in jail. Seriously you know that Superman will kill and what do you think will happen if you burn his mother alive and he lives? Again its just piss poor writing and acting that portrays Lex as a complete idiot with a death wish. His capering about like a demented monkey on the roof is awful.

Sadly the scene form the end of JLA has the same smug prat so zero character growth.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 11:50:36


Post by: Just Tony


 Paradigm wrote:
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Lex as we see him in BvS is manic in large part because he thinks he can get away with being unfocused due to the belief in his own superiority; his plan can't possibly fail in his eyes, so why pay too much attention to how it's unfolding? He's untested and so used to winning that he's fundamentally arrogant to an extreme degree, hence why he almost fails to comprehend how he could possibly have lost.

Going forward, whether that's in a Superman solo movie or JL2 as part of a Legion of Doom/Injustice League type setup, I think he'll be the Lex we are more familiar with. As you say, there are already hints towards that in BvS, just as there are hints to the more familiar Superman that we finally see in JL; the events of that film are the catalyst that changes both of them into their more traditional personas.

That, and he just has a couple of really great scenes in BvS. The meeting with the Senator as you mentioned, and the rooftop confrontation with Superman.


It's like you read my mind, going over everything I didn't post yet...


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 11:57:13


Post by: Paradigm


To be fair though, if Superman kills Lex, prominent businessman and philanthropist, it totally proves him right. So he knows that either he gets Superman to submit/fight Batman to save Martha, satisfying Lex's ego by controlling 'god', or Superman kills him and he 'wins' as the rest of the world turns on Superman for the murder of a major public figure.

As for Batman, he was looking for that fight anyway, all Lex needed to do was push Superman into it and make sure Batman could win with the Kryptonite, which he very nearly did effectively. The irony there being that by 'reducing' Superman to an ordinary human protecting his mother, Lex inadvertently provides him the opportunity to prove that same humanity to Batman and thus end the fight. Had that fight just come about without Lex's meddling, without Martha under threat, the catalyst that brings it to its shuddering halt is gone and Batman just kills him... But because Lex has to be in control, he meddles and that's where things fall apart.

Ultimately, though, Lex doesn't want to prove that Superman is wrong or evil or dangerous ,despite his various lines to other characters about that; what he wants, what Lex always wants, is to prove he's better. It's all about power. about proving to himself that his intellect and influence make him an equal to someone who can level cities. First he tries to control a god, then he tries to kill one, then he tries to become one by creating Doomsday. His speech in the library says as much:

'The bittersweet pain among men is having knowledge with no power because... because that is paradoxical'.

Thus, he must prove to himself that through knowledge, he has power greater than Superman (who has power without knowledge). It's hubris, obsession, ambition and just a bit of insanity. Hence the complex plan that he believes can't possibly fail even though it's clearly flawed. Again, he says as much (in the extended cut)

Superman: You've lost.
Lex: I don't know how to lose.

And from the same scene, 'I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. And yours, my friend, is existing'. Lex is so used to being the most powerful person in any interaction he has, so when someone comes along with the brute strength that can overcome all his social, economic and intellectual power, he has to destroy that aberration before it destroys him. Of course his plan isn't a good one, because it's concocted by a man who's losing his grip on the reality he's become so used to controlling.

So yeah, the plans themselves don't make sense, but the reason they don't does.


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 12:22:55


Post by: Hollow


I found it mediocre at best, which was a shame, as I did want to like it. The villain was terrible, the CGI was awful and the pacing was all over the place.

**/*****


Justice League Movie Discussion (Nov 17 Release) @ 2017/11/28 14:05:04


Post by: Mr Morden


To be fair though, if Superman kills Lex, prominent businessman and philanthropist, it totally proves him right. So he knows that either he gets Superman to submit/fight Batman to save Martha, satisfying Lex's ego by controlling 'god', or Superman kills him and he 'wins' as the rest of the world turns on Superman for the murder of a major public figure.


Only if the death is witnesed, or oh dear he kills a proven terrorist who burnt his mother alive and who has a super journalist on tap to make sure that story is heard. This just seems to be the same death wish - what is the upside for Lex if he is smeared across a wall unless he is actually the madman that he seems to be - again just emulating previous screen performances of the Joker? What does he prove and to whom?

Where is the cleverness, the brilliance?

As for Batman, he was looking for that fight anyway, all Lex needed to do was push Superman into it and make sure Batman could win with the Kryptonite, which he very nearly did effectively. The irony there being that by 'reducing' Superman to an ordinary human protecting his mother, Lex inadvertently provides him the opportunity to prove that same humanity to Batman and thus end the fight. Had that fight just come about without Lex's meddling, without Martha under threat, the catalyst that brings it to its shuddering halt is gone and Batman just kills him... But because Lex has to be in control, he meddles and that's where things fall apart.
We the whole "Martha is you mother?" thing was poor writing/directing but again the issue is that Lex is never in control - he just about manages to orchastrate a fight that as you say is goping to happen anyway but he has no control of the outcome or indeed the "backup plan" of Domesday. Leaving aside the sheer stupdity of that plot element how it unfolds - again there is no Control here - either Superman wins or the worlds ends for everyone - Joker deathwise again - which makes no sense?

Ultimately, though, Lex doesn't want to prove that Superman is wrong or evil or dangerous ,despite his various lines to other characters about that; what he wants, what Lex always wants, is to prove he's better. It's all about power. about proving to himself that his intellect and influence make him an equal to someone who can level cities. First he tries to control a god, then he tries to kill one, then he tries to become one by creating Doomsday. His speech in the library says as much:


Sadly he never shows any significant interlect in the show - his plans are weak, badly concieved and with zero upside for him, at best he goes to prison - at worst dies.

Thus, he must prove to himself that through knowledge, he has power greater than Superman (who has power without knowledge). It's hubris, obsession, ambition and just a bit of insanity. Hence the complex plan that he believes can't possibly fail even though it's clearly flawed. Again, he says as much (in the extended cut)

Superman: You've lost.
Lex: I don't know how to lose.

And from the same scene, 'I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. And yours, my friend, is existing'. Lex is so used to being the most powerful person in any interaction he has, so when someone comes along with the brute strength that can overcome all his social, economic and intellectual power, he has to destroy that aberration before it destroys him. Of course his plan isn't a good one, because it's concocted by a man who's losing his grip on the reality he's become so used to controlling.

So yeah, the plans themselves don't make sense, but the reason they don't does.


But its not like Superman is alone in this - Luthor even knows there are other metahumans - some perhaps on the same level as Superman - Wonder Woman is up there as the daughter of a god for example.

In his "normal" life prior to the film, Bruce Wayne is his equal in money and power - Lex is shown as a rich, perhaps brilliant man but nothing special amongst his peers - certainly not without equals in his own world. Being just a "nerd" jealous of a "jock" is just such weak writing - especially when you compare to it previous incarnations of the character - all of which took different paths to becoming a villan.

I just feel its weak writing and weaker acting in making a character a half assed version of the Joker.