specifically the non ultramarines or ultramarine successor chapters

are they accepting his rule outright

for example, Will the Blood Angels follow Robute's command over Dante's if for some hypothetical reason they conflicted?

what is the reception among those chapters so far

They'd have next to no reason to conflict.

Despite their potential difference, different chapters of Space Marines are brothers when it comes time to prosecute war for humanity. And that's exactly what Guilliman is doing writ large.

Guilliman also only ever needed the other legions/chapters to follow the spirit of his commands and not the letter anyway. For example, some random Dark Angel commander lied to him and agreed they'd split the Legion (which they never did). Guilliman was cool with that. Dorn said no, and Guilliman threatened to kill him with the combined might of the rest of the Imperium. Which is more likely, a random schmo Dark Angel could convincingly lie (not just in words, but troop orders, deployments, etc) to one of the smartest and best strategists the galaxy ever saw, or Guilliman just desired order, even if the people executing that order did things slightly differently than he would have preferred.

The Legions/Chapters would have broad avenue to enact whatever Guilliman told them to do, and short of 40k's equivalent of war crimes, he'd likely be cool with it.

PS. There's no chance Dante and Guilliman would conflict. The Blood Angels would be so damn happy to be out of the Dark Imperium that it'd be all sunshine and rainbows.

Guilliman has also proven himself to be much more pragmatic and reasonable than the other Imperial rulers have been, who were largely selfish, paranoid and erratic.

Between his authority and his willingness to actually listen to people and make compromises, it's likely that unless a chapter has a serious disagreement, there won't be much arguments to be had between him and other chapters.

LightKing wrote:
specifically the non ultramarines or ultramarine successor chapters

are they accepting his rule outright

for example, Will the Blood Angels follow Robute's command over Dante's if for some hypothetical reason they conflicted?

what is the reception among those chapters so far

I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius. Rawbooty commissioned them and their training was, from what I understand, done mostly on Mars prior to the Indomitus Crusade. These guys follow Rawbooty's teachings through the Codex and should, honestly, absorb the few remaining Blood Angels and the Successors into the Nu Blood Angels, bar the Lamenters, which consist of a Dreadnought and three coffins. Once Cawl fixed the Blood Angels' geneseed "quirks," and made them for all intents and purposes Ultramarines, I very much doubt they would revere Sanguinius all that much.

I can definitely see the Unforgiven (whom still are basically a Legion) and the Space Wolves balk at having the new False Emperor in charge.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.

Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.

I'm not saying BA would be rebel against Guilliman-- they have always strived to be codex-adherent as much as their defective gene-seed would allow them to be, seeing it as a way to temper their Red Thirst with discipline and order. They'd probably actually get along well with him. Rather, I'm just saying the Sons of Sanguinius actually remember Sanguinius probably better than Guilliman himself does.

DarknessEternal wrote:Dorn said no, and Guilliman threatened to kill him with the combined might of the rest of the Imperium.

Dorn said no, and they argued. It was the Imperial Navy that almost brought it to blows.

ChazSexington wrote:

I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius. Rawbooty commissioned them and their training was, from what I understand, done mostly on Mars prior to the Indomitus Crusade. These guys follow Rawbooty's teachings through the Codex and should, honestly, absorb the few remaining Blood Angels and the Successors into the Nu Blood Angels, bar the Lamenters, which consist of a Dreadnought and three coffins. Once Cawl fixed the Blood Angels' geneseed "quirks," and made them for all intents and purposes Ultramarines, I very much doubt they would revere Sanguinius all that much.

They were still taught of their original chapters, and the Blood Angels for the most part followed the Codex anyway, bar a couple of changes. So there would hardly be any issues, and literally no reason for them to not look up to Sanguinius. Guilliman isn't some anti-every other Primarch boogey man like you seem to think he is. He's clearly not overly bothered with deviation from his Codex considering he had no issues with the Black Templars when he woke up, or before he was put into stasis. Also, he's throwing the codex as it is out, so... maybe tone back your irrational hate and fear of a fictional character?

Also no reason the Lamenters cant be rebuilt as Primaris. Also no reason there cant be more Lamenters stuck out in other Watch Fortresses. And Im pretty sure they are just assumed destroyed anyway.

I can definitely see the Unforgiven (whom still are basically a Legion) and the Space Wolves balk at having the new False Emperor in charge.

Official Regent of the Emperor, chosen by the Emperor and enforced by the Custodes. Secondly, they didnt have a problem with Guilliman becoming Lord Commander in the wake of the Heresy, why would they now when they don't even have their Primarchs? Guilliman has saved both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves from the brink of destruction. Hardly cause for the Puppies to be at odds with him.

He typed Roboute's name as Rawbody, can safely disregard.

I imagine they respect and admire the near demigod that held the Imperium together during the Scouring and helped lay the foundations for the longest running Human empire we know of.

As was said earlier, Guilliman was would at most give the Blood Angels an objective, it would be up to them how to carry it out.

Who's going to argue with a Demi-God trying to make the galaxy not suck again just out of principle? I can't think of any official Chapter doing that.

No one. But someone might argue with a power-hungry relic from the past who is out to grab more power for himself and push benefits for his own progeny while replacing everyone else, and murdering anyone who doesn't submit to his will.

You have to understand that not everyone in-universe would see Guilliman the way you want to. That's not to say they'd openly rebel necessarily, but suspicion is par fro the course for 40k. This is not 30k. This is not Brighthammer.

 Melissia wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.

Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.

`GeneTic Mrs Malaprop.

Generally, like darkness eternal said, I'm sure just about all space marine chapters are just tickled pink there's a primarch leading them again. So, now, I think everyone's on board.

That being said, if certain other loyalist primarchs awaken, like I'm certain they will, this could change.

Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

Leman Russ is another one that might cause some waves, but he would probably be ok with G-man's rule as long as Mr. G didn't try to personally force his big book of war down russ' throat. Russ probably wouldn't have much interest in running a galactic empire, but would be happy to help defend it as long as people give him some autonomy.

Everyone else would probably be fine with it, as G-dawg is the best overall at diplomacy and administration.

Dorn might also have some friction, but the two of them seemed pretty settled by the time they both took a 10,000 year old nap.

If Sangineous somehow unmurdered himself, he would be another potential rival to power, but that is probably unlikely.

 Melissia wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.

Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.

I'm not saying BA would be rebel against Guilliman-- they have always strived to be codex-adherent as much as their defective gene-seed would allow them to be, seeing it as a way to temper their Red Thirst with discipline and order. They'd probably actually get along well with him. Rather, I'm just saying the Sons of Sanguinius actually remember Sanguinius probably better than Guilliman himself does.

I am aware of the Black Rage. While it's still early, we've not heard of any Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffering from that or the Red Thirst. Cawl specifically states he has been fixing gene-seed ticks - while the Black Rage might not be a gene-seed flaw, it definitely affects all sons of Sanguinius. This bears the question: if the new Blood Angels don't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst, whose sons (spiritually) are they really? If I were a Blood Angel, and suddenly these new mutant Space Marines turn up with no sign of the Black Rage or Red Thirst, I'd be suspicious and relieved.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


They were still taught of their original chapters, and the Blood Angels for the most part followed the Codex anyway, bar a couple of changes. So there would hardly be any issues, and literally no reason for them to not look up to Sanguinius. Guilliman isn't some anti-every other Primarch boogey man like you seem to think he is. He's clearly not overly bothered with deviation from his Codex considering he had no issues with the Black Templars when he woke up, or before he was put into stasis. Also, he's throwing the codex as it is out, so... maybe tone back your irrational hate and fear of a fictional character?

Also no reason the Lamenters cant be rebuilt as Primaris. Also no reason there cant be more Lamenters stuck out in other Watch Fortresses. And Im pretty sure they are just assumed destroyed anyway.

Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Official Regent of the Emperor, chosen by the Emperor and enforced by the Custodes. Secondly, they didnt have a problem with Guilliman becoming Lord Commander in the wake of the Heresy, why would they now when they don't even have their Primarchs? Guilliman has saved both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves from the brink of destruction. Hardly cause for the Puppies to be at odds with him.

The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.

 Crazyterran wrote:
He typed Roboute's name as Rawbody, can safely disregard.

I imagine they respect and admire the near demigod that held the Imperium together during the Scouring and helped lay the foundations for the longest running Human empire we know of.

As was said earlier, Guilliman was would at most give the Blood Angels an objective, it would be up to them how to carry it out.

If you're referring to me, I typed it Rawbooty, actually. I'm going by GW's new phonetic spelling of Roboute Guilleman (I always pronounced it as if it were French)

There are other chapters besides Ultramarines still?

I thought they had all magically vanished following the latest Crisis on Infinite Warhammers?

 ChazSexington wrote:


Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.

Do you know the levels of what they go through in training? Do you know the indoctrination? Perhaps they are fully indoctrinated in the ways of their parent Chapters. They likely are, considering they know enough about them that some of them wanted to be with the originals and lamented that they were assigned to new Chapters.

Is it explicitly stated its ONLY the original Chapters? Because the also mention it being intended to rebuild lost chapters, because guess what, Cawl has access to EVERY Chapters geneseed.

The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?

Notice how I said 'in the wake of the Heresy' what The Lion, pouty child that he is, did during the Heresy is of no consiquence (and clearly he was still hanging around Imperium Secundus, if in the latest book he is just now leaving with the others), in the aftermath he at the very least paid lipservice to the ideas of Guilliman, even going so far as to make the attempt to pretend to not be a legion and organize according to the Codex with a few deviations. Considering they've accepted them in full capacity, I really dont think the Dark Angels give a damn. Seriously in the Index, Captain in Gravis armor in a Dark Angels Army gains 'Unforgiven' and 'Deathwing'. They dont need, nor would they logically be expected, to give Guilliman all of their information. Again, he was still around after their fiasco and didn't bother to question them on it then.

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.

Again that is clearly not the case thus far. Might they just shove the Primaris all into their own Company? Maybe, after all they have Primaris Wolf Lords now.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.

No, the question was how are they reacting to Guilliman being Lord Commander again and being the man who has final say. Not their (your) issue with Primaris.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.

Do you know the levels of what they go through in training? Do you know the indoctrination? Perhaps they are fully indoctrinated in the ways of their parent Chapters. They likely are, considering they know enough about them that some of them wanted to be with the originals and lamented that they were assigned to new Chapters.

Is it explicitly stated its ONLY the original Chapters? Because the also mention it being intended to rebuild lost chapters, because guess what, Cawl has access to EVERY Chapters geneseed.

Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?

Notice how I said 'in the wake of the Heresy' what The Lion, pouty child that he is, did during the Heresy is of no consiquence (and clearly he was still hanging around Imperium Secundus, if in the latest book he is just now leaving with the others), in the aftermath he at the very least paid lipservice to the ideas of Guilliman, even going so far as to make the attempt to pretend to not be a legion and organize according to the Codex with a few deviations. Considering they've accepted them in full capacity, I really dont think the Dark Angels give a damn. Seriously in the Index, Captain in Gravis armor in a Dark Angels Army gains 'Unforgiven' and 'Deathwing'. They dont need, nor would they logically be expected, to give Guilliman all of their information. Again, he was still around after their fiasco and didn't bother to question them on it then.

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.

Again that is clearly not the case thus far. Might they just shove the Primaris all into their own Company? Maybe, after all they have Primaris Wolf Lords now.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.

No, the question was how are they reacting to Guilliman being Lord Commander again and being the man who has final say. Not their (your) issue with Primaris.

Just to clarify, I focussed on the most obvious change caused by Guilliman's rule - his introduction of the Primaris Marines. I presumed OP didn't ask whether any Chapters would rebel just because Guilliman is the de-facto Emperor of Mankind, with the Emperor reduced to a galactic lighthouse as far as governance is concerned.

What happened during the Heresy and immediately post-Heresy is intrinsic to the Unforgiven's traditions though, nevermind Redloss' sword getting Cypher slammed into a cell for his troubles on Terra (well, for a whole fifteen minutes or so). They are secretive, bordering on paranoid because of it. While the secret of the Fallen is layered within the Dark Angels' circles, I still see their paranoia making them very skeptical of Guilliman, especially as he suddenly turns up with thousands of new Dark Angels, created from their gene-seed. What other liberties has he taken? They know he saw Cypher and the Fallen (and paraded them through the streets of Terra). I can only imagine Azrael's face when he starts getting reports of Guilliman marching alongside the Fallen and Cypher up to the doors of the Emperor's abode.

I'm also steering way off the crunch - by the same logic, the Fallen suddenly lost either their bolters or boltpistols from 7th to 8th and the Chaos Space Marines ditched every drop pod immediately after the Heresy.

How is it clearly not the case (ref Space Wolves)? While I'm pretty sure GW are opting for the easy way out eventually (all Chapters fully embrace the Primaris), but judging by the Space Wolves' character, they should have some issues with this aspect of his rule. It'd be same if you tried forcing the Space Wolves to join the Imperial Fists - very different structure, culture, and tactics are bound to cause problems.

As another case, I can see the Red Scorpions being ticked off - they hold their gene-seed purity above all else, and having their predecessors' gene-seed tampered with by Cawl isn't (shouldn't?) going to go down too well.

Now, when (because let's be honest, it's not a question of if) the other Primarchs return, there hopefully should be friction, as there was in Imperium Secundus. Then the Lion or Corax (who has such great experiences with tampered gene-seed) might take issue with Guilliman's actions, but I very much doubt GW will really cause any friction. In my head, building an army in secret while everyone else's armies are being divided up isn't something I see going down too well with Dorn or the Lion.

Obviously, this is just how I think it should play out. It certainly won't (as GW needs to sell Primaris to all SM players), but I still see it as incongruent with the fluff. Maybe FW holds off hard, making the Red Scorpions a Primaris-free Chapter, but I doubt it, even with their upcoming supplement.

 ChazSexington wrote:


Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.

There is still the chance, cause GW, that they did work with the Chapter Geneseed as well. Considering pretty much every Chapter is getting Primaris, that seems likely.

Just to clarify, I focussed on the most obvious change caused by Guilliman's rule - his introduction of the Primaris Marines. I presumed OP didn't ask whether any Chapters would rebel just because Guilliman is the de-facto Emperor of Mankind, with the Emperor reduced to a galactic lighthouse as far as governance is concerned.

Which still wasnt the issue, the issue was taking his orders and accepting his rule, which if Primaris were the big issue then the answer would be Yes they are, because they have Primaris.

What happened during the Heresy and immediately post-Heresy is intrinsic to the Unforgiven's traditions though, nevermind Redloss' sword getting Cypher slammed into a cell for his troubles on Terra (well, for a whole fifteen minutes or so). They are secretive, bordering on paranoid because of it. While the secret of the Fallen is layered within the Dark Angels' circles, I still see their paranoia making them very skeptical of Guilliman, especially as he suddenly turns up with thousands of new Dark Angels, created from their gene-seed. What other liberties has he taken? They know he saw Cypher and the Fallen (and paraded them through the streets of Terra). I can only imagine Azrael's face when he starts getting reports of Guilliman marching alongside the Fallen and Cypher up to the doors of the Emperor's abode.

It would never come up as an issue for Guilliman because he doesnt care. If Azrael tried to make an issue of it, it would be explained away or he'd be put in his place like when he was forced into working with the Grey Knights.

I'm also steering way off the crunch - by the same logic, the Fallen suddenly lost either their bolters or boltpistols from 7th to 8th and the Chaos Space Marines ditched every drop pod immediately after the Heresy.

Losing a piece of Wargear is descidedly different from a rule that fundamentally affects the way the Chapter works and is based entirely on the Chapter's lore

How is it clearly not the case (ref Space Wolves)? While I'm pretty sure GW are opting for the easy way out eventually (all Chapters fully embrace the Primaris), but judging by the Space Wolves' character, they should have some issues with this aspect of his rule. It'd be same if you tried forcing the Space Wolves to join the Imperial Fists - very different structure, culture, and tactics are bound to cause problems.

Because they've been shown as accepting the Primaris, and that they are grateful for them because as a Chapter the Wolves were dying out thanks to magnus.

As another case, I can see the Red Scorpions being ticked off - they hold their gene-seed purity above all else, and having their predecessors' gene-seed tampered with by Cawl isn't (shouldn't?) going to go down too well.

Now, when (because let's be honest, it's not a question of if) the other Primarchs return, there hopefully should be friction, as there was in Imperium Secundus. Then the Lion or Corax (who has such great experiences with tampered gene-seed) might take issue with Guilliman's actions, but I very much doubt GW will really cause any friction. In my head, building an army in secret while everyone else's armies are being divided up isn't something I see going down too well with Dorn or the Lion.

It wouldnt be a problem for Dorn or the Lion because Guilliman wasn't building the secret army to horde for himself. He was building it for all those armies that were being divided up. That is a fact.

Obviously, this is just how I think it should play out. It certainly won't (as GW needs to sell Primaris to all SM players), but I still see it as incongruent with the fluff. Maybe FW holds off hard, making the Red Scorpions a Primaris-free Chapter, but I doubt it, even with their upcoming supplement.

 Melissia wrote:
No one. But someone might argue with a power-hungry relic from the past who is out to grab more power for himself and push benefits for his own progeny while replacing everyone else, and murdering anyone who doesn't submit to his will.

You have to understand that not everyone in-universe would see Guilliman the way you want to. That's not to say they'd openly rebel necessarily, but suspicion is par fro the course for 40k. This is not 30k. This is not Brighthammer.

Which is more likely to be a regular human that feels threatened than anything.

The entire rebirth of Gulliman is so extremely heretical and tainted with xenos corruption (and possible chaos if you think the ynnari are unknowingly pawns of chaos) that I don't see how the Imperium as a whole can be cool with the events that are unfolding. Cawl alone is committing massive techno heresy and spreading the seeds of corruption into the chapters of space marines in the form of the primaris marines. There needs to be some major conflicts within the IoM over all of this.

I don't think de jure Roboute can directly command other chapters. He is a High Lord of Terra and the Lord Commander of the Imperium. Neither gives him direct authority over Astartes, there have been other Lord Commanders between his two tenures in that job, they couldn't command Astartes either. That being said, I'm sure most would not quibble over such things.

I'd say the other chapters are using shoehorns to deal with it. Very poor writing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is more likely to be

Anyone that has power but doesn't agree with Guilliman's directives, or believes they may someday not agree with them.

A great many Marine chapters are fiercely independent. Or have you forgotten so much of the lore that you think Marines have a reputation for just falling in line and doing what they're told?

In fact, this ten thousand year history of fierce independence is Guilliman's doing in the first place. Just saying "Okay, you can stop now" won't make everyone suddenly snap back in to all being a regimented set of legions again. And Guilliman himself knows this, too, which is why he is forced to make exceptions for entities like the Templars. Guilliman does not have the power nor the authority to accomplish such a feat; he has to make compromises.

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is more likely to be

Anyone that has power but doesn't agree with Guilliman's directives, or believes they may someday not agree with them.

A great many Marine chapters are fiercely independent. Or have you forgotten so much of the lore that you think Marines have a reputation for just falling in line and doing what they're told?

In fact, this ten thousand year history of fierce independence is Guilliman's doing in the first place. Just saying "Okay, you can stop now" won't make everyone suddenly snap back in to all being a regimented set of legions again. And Guilliman himself knows this, too, which is why he is forced to make exceptions for entities like the Templars. Guilliman does not have the power nor the authority to accomplish such a feat; he has to make compromises.

Have you forgotten that Guilliman has ALREADY been Lord Commander of the Imperium, and this was at the same time many Primarchs were still around? He doesn't care too much for the minutia of it, as it's imperative that he keeps everyone roughly on the same page; hence the Templars and Unforgiven.

Not all Space Marines will worship the very ground Guilliman walks on, but practically all of them know that to side with the ONLY Primarch that's actually fighting for the Imperium is good. He is the last of the Emperor's sons, appointed by the Emperor himself, and guarded by his Custodes, backed by Mars and the majority of Space Marine Chapters (mostly because 3/5ths are descended from him), loved by the IG because he's a walking demi-god - he's the best chance they have. It's far easier for them to ally with him, pride be damned, and reap the benefits of what he's freely offering them. No marines fluffwise will be redundant, because they can all take the Primaris upgrade.

He's not moving to make everyone the same, or replacing anyone. He's not hording an army for himself. The only person you could accuse of that is Cawl, who was building Guilliman's project in secret even during Guilliman's time as a big blue popsicle. Primaris was always as Guilliman's addition and improvement for the entire Adeptus Astartes - not for himself. He's just giving everyone the same upgrades to their forces in the form of the Primaris, which old-marines can become. And as GW have proven, even Chapters like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels have taken the Primaris into their forces. Your own forces can be the exceptions, and that's fine, but it's wrong to say that, as a whole, the SW and DA reject the Primaris.

So, as I see it, my response to the OP is "Guilliman might not have direct control and authority over every Space Marine chapter, but due to his position as returning Lord Commander, his status as the last Primarch, the gifts he offers to Chapters who support him, and his sheer tactical/strategic knowledge, he is a welcome ally, and his words are heeded, if not always obeyed."

He saved space wolves from nigh on dieing out with his reinforcements, bolstered there ranks and strengthen the chapter again.

They also have a similar mindset to him, similar goals and both value the impirum citizens.

They would not conflict and despite proud sons of Russ, and never will claims to be anything else. Would follow him into battle readily.

I could see the more fanatical groups not giving any gaks about what he has to say and going about their buisness as normal. Red Scorpions come to mind.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle..

I am aware of the Black Rage. While it's still early, we've not heard of any Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffering from that or the Red Thirst. Cawl specifically states he has been fixing gene-seed ticks - while the Black Rage might not be a gene-seed flaw, it definitely affects all sons of Sanguinius. This bears the question: if the new Blood Angels don't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst, whose sons (spiritually) are they really? If I were a Blood Angel, and suddenly these new mutant Space Marines turn up with no sign of the Black Rage or Red Thirst, I'd be suspicious and relieved.

Actually this pens a question - is Black Rage in Sanguinius' Blood? As 'martian' Primaris BAs as far as we can guess didn't used real BA rites with real Blood during and after creation (and thus - unlike Red Thirst that existed pre-Heresy - Black Rage can be something Cawl missed entirely or had no idea of problem's scale) so they can be in for a big surprise (several decades/ritual cycles ahead or in new chapter-created Primaris SMs).

From 'Dark Imperium':

The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended.They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function.

IMHO it means that Red Thirst (and Curse of Wulfen ) for now lays more or less dormant not surpassing problem's scale in Crusade days - but not totally weeded out.

The Black Rage is calmed by Sanguinary Priests' Blood Chalice, which apparently contains a tiny amount of Sanguinius' blood, which is involved in a LOT of rituals for the BA.

Lexicanum wrote:Because of this role, the Sanguinary Priests are responsible for the care of the Red Grail, the chalice holding the blood of Sanguinius himself. This blood is regularly circulated through the veins of the Sanguinary Priests, who are injected with a sample from the Grail, then later cut themselves to bleed it back in. In this way, the blood is continuously kept fresh, and every single draught from the Grail contains a small percentage of the original blood of the Primarch.
(from Codex: Blood Angels 4th Edition and the novel Red Fury)

So I'm guessing it's a defect of the BA geneseed that isn't linked to Sanguinius.

Granted I can't find the citation for the idea that this blood is used to calm the rage. I'll look through old books next time I get a chance; will have to bug a friend for their copies.

Also, my point wasn't that every Marine chapter would rebel openly and such. Merely simply stating a logical fact of human psychology which has been seen in 40k's marines time and time again, all the way back to the Horus Heresy; this is a massive upset in the status quo. People with power tend to resist changes to the status quo, because it potentially upsets their own power. Marines have power.

I also stated (not that you apparently noticed) that Guilliman knows this and is probably acting appropriately, lest he cause the rebellion in question. It may ultimately not matter what his position was 10,000 years ago to marines descended from a different primarch, with a vastly different set of beliefs, who never once saw Guilliman in any living memory, and don't hold him in reverence. IT has been 10,000 years. This is not the same Imperium Guilliman commanded the forces of, even the adherence to the codex isn't the way he envisioned. And Guilliman knows it, even if his fanboys apparently don't. What makes him a good administrator isn't his power and sway over others, it's his ability to find appropriate compromises for the sake of the greater Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, my point wasn't that every Marine chapter would rebel openly and such. Merely simply stating a logical fact of human psychology which has been seen in 40k's marines time and time again, all the way back to the Horus Heresy; this is a massive upset in the status quo. People with power tend to resist changes to the status quo, because it potentially upsets their own power. Marines have power.

I also stated (not that you apparently noticed) that Guilliman knows this and is probably acting appropriately, lest he cause the rebellion in question. It may ultimately not matter what his position was 10,000 years ago to marines descended from a different primarch, with a vastly different set of beliefs, who never once saw Guilliman in any living memory, and don't hold him in reverence. IT has been 10,000 years. This is not the same Imperium Guilliman commanded the forces of, even the adherence to the codex isn't the way he envisioned. And Guilliman knows it, even if his fanboys apparently don't. What makes him a good administrator isn't his power and sway over others, it's his ability to find appropriate compromises for the sake of the greater Imperium.

Assuming you're responding to me on this.

I noticed, and agree with you that his compromises make him good, but compromises alone do nothing. If compromise was the only factor, then I'm sure fairly diplomatic and reasonable Chapter Masters such as Calgar, Tu'Shan or Dante would have done it beforehand. Guilliman's ability to negotiate and compromise makes the work incredibly easy in comparison to butting heads, but you cannot ignore that his status as a Primarch, and the fact that he has already commanded the Imperium before doesn't factor into this.

He genuinely does have the most power of any individual in the Imperium. He is descended directly from the Emperor's blood. He was personally vouched for by arguably the greatest Living Saint, and a high-ranking lord of Mars. He directly controls one of the most famed Space Marine chapters, and holds indirect sway over 3/5ths of them. The Custodes accept him as their lord, and the Emperor himself granted an audience to him, and gave him power. No other can claim that power. Guilliman has the power and authority. Of course, as we've seen with Inquisitors, just because you have "authority", it might not be acted on. Yet Guilliman combines authority with compromise, making him largely respected throughout the Imperium. Even if 10,000 years have passed, we are told repeatedly that the Imperium has been very stagnant since the Scouring. The biggest changes to the organisation of the Imperium have been religious, with the Ecclesiarchy taking hold - an Ecclesiarchy which isn't massively involved with the affairs of the Adeptus Astartes.

Hence, that's why I believe that even the more stubborn Chapters, such as the Wolves, DA or Templars, would still fall into order for him, if he asked. Not blindly, and not out of sheer obedience, but out of respect of his authority, respect which has been earned.
So yes, I do agree with you. However, I did want to elaborate on a specific point which I feel was missed.

The second half of my post wasn't really directed at anyone specific, just my general point.

You also can't discount 10,000 years of cultural inertia, independence, and pride. Marines have rebelled for less, even if GW itself doesn't necessarily remember that.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.

There is still the chance, cause GW, that they did work with the Chapter Geneseed as well. Considering pretty much every Chapter is getting Primaris, that seems likely.

We are getting a little tangential here, but I think a part of the Black Rage is pretty simple; the Remembrancer.

Space marines can take memories by consuming bodily matter. A part of their initiation process is to consume the living blood of their dead Primarch.

Of course they are going to inherit his memories, even if it isn't always immediately apparent.

I can see space wolves just shrugging it off and not really paying much mind to it. SW have been operating distanced from imperial rule since the horus heresy. If Gully tries to force the codex on them, they won't be happy.

As Chaz said, I agree that primaris wolves are in for a shock when they arrive on fenris.

 ChazSexington wrote:


But the fact is that there's not a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor, and Cawl has gone back to the source - the Legion gene-seed. Thus, all Ultramarine Successors will be given Primaris made from Ultramarine gene-seed, not their own Chapter's gene-seed. They'll be genetically very close, but some of the mutations will be removed. It makes sense, genetically speaking, as you can get rid of the mutations. Sure, Soul Drinkers may get Imperial Fist-derived Primaris, but we know the Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fists. This would be the Soul Drinkers will remain, but genetically they won't be derived from the same source.

Maybe because there isnt a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor. The Silver Skulls, frequently believed to be Iron Warriors, particularly after Imperium Secundus.

Guess they've been confirmed as not being Iron Warriors.

I'm not saying they haven't accepted Primaris. I'm saying the introduction, as a consequence of Guilliman's rule, is likely to cause some problems in some Chapters due to their very different culture. E.g. the stupendously superstitious Mortifactors might not be seen in the best light by their new Mars-trained Ultramarine Primaris brothers, and vice versa.

Or it wont, considering they would be able to inform the replacements of the recorded differences that are known or even would have been encountered by the Primaris during the course of the Crusade.

Guilliman suspects something, as seeing the Lion Sword, previously used to skewer Russ and Curze, and owned by the guy who came up with the plan to render parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries,suddenly turns with on a mysterious Heresy-era Dark Angel made him betray his word to the Dark Angel and lock him up (after parading him through the streets of Terra). Either way, Azrael knows that Cypher was on Terra with the Fallen in tow and got locket up. I cannot believe the Inner Circle can be anything but suspicious and/or nervous.

They can be nervous all they want, the fact is Guilliman doesnt care enough to challenge the Dark Angels, hell he sent them upgrades. If the Inner Circle wants to be nervous they can, but the fact is they have Primaris in the Inner Circle.

Furthermore, as normal Space Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines, which seems most obvious.

A statement presented as fact alot since their introduction, but as of yet, in fluff there is no proof of it. Warhammer Community and the Twitch Team get things wrong. Even if its true, going off your belief the DA would be inheriently suspicious and questioning of the Primaris, why would any of them chose to upgrade?

I'm not saying they're not happy for reinforcements, just that Mars-trained Space Wolves Primars may not see eye to eye on quite a few tactical, organisational, and strategies issues. The Primaris may see the Space Wolves as savages, and the Space Wolves may see the Primaris as Ultramarines in grey. Again, this is something I see as potential problems related to Guilliman's introduction of the Primaris, but obviously GW don't want a single Chapter being skeptical to their introduction.

His introduction of the Primaris is literally, "Here, I made these to supplement your forces, make them work." Other than that, Primaris organization is incredibly similar to the operation of the Legions. All the Wolves need to do is break out Bjorn, who can just point out how things were. Even with out that conflict over the Primaris could be incredibly slim. They dont like them? Ok they can do die and the next batch is trained to be properly Wolfy. But any issue is likely gonna be one sided with the older Dogs, as its mentioned that many of the Primaris that went on to make up the Wolfspear were actively looking forward to being Space Wolves despite what they knew of them.

 ChazSexington wrote:

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

Um.... Sorry, the magpies....errr.... Blood Ravens just called, Chaplain Diomedes is now a Primaris. Hail their unknown Legion, you may commence Orbital Bombardment of canon.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


But the fact is that there's not a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor, and Cawl has gone back to the source - the Legion gene-seed. Thus, all Ultramarine Successors will be given Primaris made from Ultramarine gene-seed, not their own Chapter's gene-seed. They'll be genetically very close, but some of the mutations will be removed. It makes sense, genetically speaking, as you can get rid of the mutations. Sure, Soul Drinkers may get Imperial Fist-derived Primaris, but we know the Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fists. This would be the Soul Drinkers will remain, but genetically they won't be derived from the same source.

Maybe because there isnt a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor. The Silver Skulls, frequently believed to be Iron Warriors, particularly after Imperium Secundus.

Guess they've been confirmed as not being Iron Warriors.

I'm not saying they haven't accepted Primaris. I'm saying the introduction, as a consequence of Guilliman's rule, is likely to cause some problems in some Chapters due to their very different culture. E.g. the stupendously superstitious Mortifactors might not be seen in the best light by their new Mars-trained Ultramarine Primaris brothers, and vice versa.

Or it wont, considering they would be able to inform the replacements of the recorded differences that are known or even would have been encountered by the Primaris during the course of the Crusade.

Guilliman suspects something, as seeing the Lion Sword, previously used to skewer Russ and Curze, and owned by the guy who came up with the plan to render parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries,suddenly turns with on a mysterious Heresy-era Dark Angel made him betray his word to the Dark Angel and lock him up (after parading him through the streets of Terra). Either way, Azrael knows that Cypher was on Terra with the Fallen in tow and got locket up. I cannot believe the Inner Circle can be anything but suspicious and/or nervous.

They can be nervous all they want, the fact is Guilliman doesnt care enough to challenge the Dark Angels, hell he sent them upgrades. If the Inner Circle wants to be nervous they can, but the fact is they have Primaris in the Inner Circle.

Furthermore, as normal Space Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines, which seems most obvious.

A statement presented as fact alot since their introduction, but as of yet, in fluff there is no proof of it. Warhammer Community and the Twitch Team get things wrong. Even if its true, going off your belief the DA would be inheriently suspicious and questioning of the Primaris, why would any of them chose to upgrade?

I'm not saying they're not happy for reinforcements, just that Mars-trained Space Wolves Primars may not see eye to eye on quite a few tactical, organisational, and strategies issues. The Primaris may see the Space Wolves as savages, and the Space Wolves may see the Primaris as Ultramarines in grey. Again, this is something I see as potential problems related to Guilliman's introduction of the Primaris, but obviously GW don't want a single Chapter being skeptical to their introduction.

His introduction of the Primaris is literally, "Here, I made these to supplement your forces, make them work." Other than that, Primaris organization is incredibly similar to the operation of the Legions. All the Wolves need to do is break out Bjorn, who can just point out how things were. Even with out that conflict over the Primaris could be incredibly slim. They dont like them? Ok they can do die and the next batch is trained to be properly Wolfy. But any issue is likely gonna be one sided with the older Dogs, as its mentioned that many of the Primaris that went on to make up the Wolfspear were actively looking forward to being Space Wolves despite what they knew of them.

For all their faults the space wolves are legendary, they are famous as as first founding and have time and again been defenders of imperial citizens.

They earned alot of respect.
Also bjorn yeah, he knows how stuff gets done and his position as the ainciant wolf. Even Logan Grimmer bows to Bjorn council as his reputation is almost as legendary as the chapters.

So integrating basic ly legionnaires is easy as a fenris elfk steak and ale.

They would have no issue integrating them.
Bjorn says they do. Grimor. It's happens.

And great companies they choose marines so if one lord does not like primias, then likely their structure let's them not have them. Their great companies are quite independent.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


But the fact is that there's not a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor, and Cawl has gone back to the source - the Legion gene-seed. Thus, all Ultramarine Successors will be given Primaris made from Ultramarine gene-seed, not their own Chapter's gene-seed. They'll be genetically very close, but some of the mutations will be removed. It makes sense, genetically speaking, as you can get rid of the mutations. Sure, Soul Drinkers may get Imperial Fist-derived Primaris, but we know the Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fists. This would be the Soul Drinkers will remain, but genetically they won't be derived from the same source.

Maybe because there isnt a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor. The Silver Skulls, frequently believed to be Iron Warriors, particularly after Imperium Secundus.

Guess they've been confirmed as not being Iron Warriors.

I'm not saying they haven't accepted Primaris. I'm saying the introduction, as a consequence of Guilliman's rule, is likely to cause some problems in some Chapters due to their very different culture. E.g. the stupendously superstitious Mortifactors might not be seen in the best light by their new Mars-trained Ultramarine Primaris brothers, and vice versa.

Or it wont, considering they would be able to inform the replacements of the recorded differences that are known or even would have been encountered by the Primaris during the course of the Crusade.

Guilliman suspects something, as seeing the Lion Sword, previously used to skewer Russ and Curze, and owned by the guy who came up with the plan to render parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries,suddenly turns with on a mysterious Heresy-era Dark Angel made him betray his word to the Dark Angel and lock him up (after parading him through the streets of Terra). Either way, Azrael knows that Cypher was on Terra with the Fallen in tow and got locket up. I cannot believe the Inner Circle can be anything but suspicious and/or nervous.

They can be nervous all they want, the fact is Guilliman doesnt care enough to challenge the Dark Angels, hell he sent them upgrades. If the Inner Circle wants to be nervous they can, but the fact is they have Primaris in the Inner Circle.

Furthermore, as normal Space Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines, which seems most obvious.

A statement presented as fact alot since their introduction, but as of yet, in fluff there is no proof of it. Warhammer Community and the Twitch Team get things wrong. Even if its true, going off your belief the DA would be inheriently suspicious and questioning of the Primaris, why would any of them chose to upgrade?

I'm not saying they're not happy for reinforcements, just that Mars-trained Space Wolves Primars may not see eye to eye on quite a few tactical, organisational, and strategies issues. The Primaris may see the Space Wolves as savages, and the Space Wolves may see the Primaris as Ultramarines in grey. Again, this is something I see as potential problems related to Guilliman's introduction of the Primaris, but obviously GW don't want a single Chapter being skeptical to their introduction.

His introduction of the Primaris is literally, "Here, I made these to supplement your forces, make them work." Other than that, Primaris organization is incredibly similar to the operation of the Legions. All the Wolves need to do is break out Bjorn, who can just point out how things were. Even with out that conflict over the Primaris could be incredibly slim. They dont like them? Ok they can do die and the next batch is trained to be properly Wolfy. But any issue is likely gonna be one sided with the older Dogs, as its mentioned that many of the Primaris that went on to make up the Wolfspear were actively looking forward to being Space Wolves despite what they knew of them.

Right, then we know the Silver Skulls are not Iron Warrior Successors of Barabas Dantioch, unless Cawl disobeyed the Lord Commander of the Imperium's direct, explicit command.

Being informed of the differences, especially when some Chapters' beliefs are borderline Heretical, will not help. Try telling the Primaris that the Black Dragons utilise their bone mutations as weapons. That the Mortifactors believe in customs totally at odds with the Imperial creed. I'm not saying there's going to be rebellion, just some cases may cause friction.

Ref. DAs - then we agree. The Dark Angels are going to be nervous about the whole thing, which will probably manifest itself in some way, though Guilliman won't lock up Azrael. I don't think the DAs would have problems upgrading at all - I think they would view Guilliman's reinforcements with some skepticism, as is wont to be happen. I mean, these guys attacked the Black Templars for knowing about the Fallen and Guilliman paraded them. They can't execute Guilliman (and they wouldn't), but I cannot imagine they are happy about their dirty secret being paraded aroundTerra.

Ref. Space Wolves, that relies on Bjorn actually making them work flawlessly from the get-go. Remember that Bjorn and the Space Wolves fight very differently from the rest - it's specifically mentioned in the FW books. They're not Codex-adherent, and I can bet anything the Primaris, whom are commissioned by Guilliman, are Codex-adherent. The Wolf Spear will thus definitely be Codex-adherent, as the Primaris won't know anything else (unless they later train with the Space Wolves and adopt their organisation). The Space Wolves' Primaris will thus have to be trained in a fashion very different from their previous training.

Friction between Chapters happen all the time - Salamanders were proper pissy about the Marines Malevolent when they used a refugee camp as Ork-bait before shelling the entire valley. The Dark Angels and Space Wolves don't always get along. The Mortifactors abandoned the Lamenters on the battlefield. The Ultramarines were affronted by the Lamenters flinging accolades back at them. There is no reason why Primaris can't cause friction, which would mostly be caused by Codex-adherent Marines being introduced to Chapters that aren't Codex-adherent.

Though at this point I think I'm just repeating myself, so I'll bow out here.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I think the Black Rage is caused by the psychic (magic) imprint of Sanguinius' death on all his descendants, though I could be wrong. Thus, it's kinda linked to gene-seed, but not due to any flaw in the gene-seed.

Blood angels showed signs of that pre-siege of terra though. Not to the scale yet but enough they had to secretly put an end to those who had gone too far in madness.

tneva82 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I think the Black Rage is caused by the psychic (magic) imprint of Sanguinius' death on all his descendants, though I could be wrong. Thus, it's kinda linked to gene-seed, but not due to any flaw in the gene-seed.

Blood angels showed signs of that pre-siege of terra though. Not to the scale yet but enough they had to secretly put an end to those who had gone too far in madness.

That's the Red Thirst, not Black Rage.

 Melissia wrote:
You also can't discount 10,000 years of cultural inertia, independence, and pride. Marines have rebelled for less, even if GW itself doesn't necessarily remember that.

This is true, but it should be remembered that there's far fewer generations of Space Marines between now and 30K then there are regular humans. So the time period doesn't quite mean the same thing. For most of the Imperium, 30K is our equivalent of King Ur-Nammu coming back, for the Marines, it's more Henry VIII. They know more about him, Marines from less generations ago knew him, and they have more of a cultural familiarity.

 ChazSexington wrote:


Right, then we know the Silver Skulls are not Iron Warrior Successors of Barabas Dantioch, unless Cawl disobeyed the Lord Commander of the Imperium's direct, explicit command.

Being informed of the differences, especially when some Chapters' beliefs are borderline Heretical, will not help. Try telling the Primaris that the Black Dragons utilise their bone mutations as weapons. That the Mortifactors believe in customs totally at odds with the Imperial creed. I'm not saying there's going to be rebellion, just some cases may cause friction.

Remember, Guilliman already suspects that Cawl has disobeyed his Command. On that though its strange that had the Silver Skulls, and several others, actually have been from Traitor stock (im not sure any are outright confirmed to be Traitor) that he would with hold the Geneseed from them. He witnessed first had these Astartes disown and actively fight against their Primarchs. Though for Chapters like the Black Dragons and Mortifactors, their customs and mutations are hardly unknown to the Imperium and with Guilliman being how he is, one could think he'd have something set up for integrating them.

Ref. DAs - then we agree. The Dark Angels are going to be nervous about the whole thing, which will probably manifest itself in some way, though Guilliman won't lock up Azrael. I don't think the DAs would have problems upgrading at all - I think they would view Guilliman's reinforcements with some skepticism, as is wont to be happen. I mean, these guys attacked the Black Templars for knowing about the Fallen and Guilliman paraded them. They can't execute Guilliman (and they wouldn't), but I cannot imagine they are happy about their dirty secret being paraded aroundTerra.

I reckon we do agree. I wonder, how ever if rather than remaining upset and broody, if this action could eventually lead to the Dark Angels realizing that its not as condemning as they thought. After all with new fluff almost every Legion had its traitors. Much more damning is the lengths they went to keep it secret.

Ref. Space Wolves, that relies on Bjorn actually making them work flawlessly from the get-go. Remember that Bjorn and the Space Wolves fight very differently from the rest - it's specifically mentioned in the FW books. They're not Codex-adherent, and I can bet anything the Primaris, whom are commissioned by Guilliman, are Codex-adherent. The Wolf Spear will thus definitely be Codex-adherent, as the Primaris won't know anything else (unless they later train with the Space Wolves and adopt their organisation). The Space Wolves' Primaris will thus have to be trained in a fashion very different from their previous training.

Different, but also the same, they had their specialist units, but they also fielded the same sort of squads as everyone else. As for the Wolfspear, I would have to disagree. They wont be Codex-adherent, or at least not as much as you might think. If that were the case they'd have been mentioned in the Codex Space Marines, but they are not. They were mentioned in Dark Imperium.

Friction between Chapters happen all the time - Salamanders were proper pissy about the Marines Malevolent when they used a refugee camp as Ork-bait before shelling the entire valley. The Dark Angels and Space Wolves don't always get along. The Mortifactors abandoned the Lamenters on the battlefield. The Ultramarines were affronted by the Lamenters flinging accolades back at them. There is no reason why Primaris can't cause friction, which would mostly be caused by Codex-adherent Marines being introduced to Chapters that aren't Codex-adherent.

Though at this point I think I'm just repeating myself, so I'll bow out here.

You're repeating yourself because you seem to be hung up on this notion that the Primaris are all Codex trained. Which they aren't, they don't fit any true Codex roll and considering we have no mention of Divergent Chapter's Primaris (well there is one), one can reasonably assume that they were informed how things are.

Now onto the one divergent chapter that is mentioned in the codex, The Black Templar. They vary greatly from the operation of the Codex, yet they still have Primaris and there are no mentions yet of it causing some great friction between the old Templar and the new.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

He's not moving to make everyone the same, or replacing anyone. He's not hording an army for himself. The only person you could accuse of that is Cawl, who was building Guilliman's project in secret even during Guilliman's time as a big blue popsicle. Primaris was always as Guilliman's addition and improvement for the entire Adeptus Astartes - not for himself. He's just giving everyone the same upgrades to their forces in the form of the Primaris, which old-marines can become. And as GW have proven, even Chapters like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels have taken the Primaris into their forces. Your own forces can be the exceptions, and that's fine, but it's wrong to say that, as a whole, the SW and DA reject the Primaris.

You say that but he's creating more powerful marines and then training them away from their parent chapters. Who knows what they're being indoctrinated with. If their chapter comes into conflict with Guilliman or Mars will the primaris support their chapter or lead a coup from the inside?

ChazSexington wrote:[...]
Right, then we know the Silver Skulls are not Iron Warrior Successors of Barabas Dantioch, unless Cawl disobeyed the Lord Commander of the Imperium's direct, explicit command.[...]

I subscribe to the theory that the whole idea was that Guilliman wanted to shelter Barabas Dantioch and the other loyal Iron Warriors, and what better way than by hiding them in an Ultramarine successor chapter that is 'totally' genetically legit, even though there were no records of it. As a nod to his friend Dantioch, Guilliman allowed them to retain their remnants of their old identity which became the chapter colours and the icon based off of Dantiochs mask, which of course also resembles the Iron Warriors icon.
Later on Ultramarine chaplains did genetic tests on the Silver Skulls and ruled that they were certainly Ultramarines. And thus the Imperial records were updated and that's why they're listed under Ultramarines today.

Well, let me ask this to all of you, if, and we're again talking Blood Ravens, let me posit this: the Blood Ravens primarch is unknown (supposedly). If turning existing Marines into Primaris requires the gene seed of their Legion, then this should be impossible, and yet we have Diomedes become a Primaris.

So... I'd say that the cat is out of the Space Hulk on the Thousand Sons connection there.

You can add the Sons of the Phoenix to the "almost certainly traitor geneseed" list. Colors match the purple and gold pre-heresy colors, they have a penchant for glory-seeking and spectacle, and they're called the Sons of the Phoenix it's like Cawl wasn't even trying to pretend.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Well, let me ask this to all of you, if, and we're again talking Blood Ravens, let me posit this: the Blood Ravens primarch is unknown (supposedly). If turning existing Marines into Primaris requires the gene seed of their Legion, then this should be impossible, and yet we have Diomedes become a Primaris.

So... I'd say that the cat is out of the Space Hulk on the Thousand Sons connection there.

Has it been said whats required to turn Space Marines into Primaris?

I just assumed Cawl "gifted" the Blood Ravens the upgrade technology. That's my excuse for my Blood Raven Primaris anyway.

 argonak wrote:


Has it been said whats required to turn Space Marines into Primaris?

I just assumed Cawl "gifted" the Blood Ravens the upgrade technology. That's my excuse for my Blood Raven Primaris anyway.

Supposedly the geneseed of their original founding legion is used to create Primaris (NVM how soaked in BS this is). In the event of 'new' primaris marines this is a non-issue, as your idea about them being 'gifted' to the Magpies would hold as much water as any of their other acquisitions. The issue is they took an existing character and did the conversion process. So... how the hell did that work?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 argonak wrote:


Has it been said whats required to turn Space Marines into Primaris?

I just assumed Cawl "gifted" the Blood Ravens the upgrade technology. That's my excuse for my Blood Raven Primaris anyway.

Supposedly the geneseed of their original founding legion is used to create Primaris (NVM how soaked in BS this is). In the event of 'new' primaris marines this is a non-issue, as your idea about them being 'gifted' to the Magpies would hold as much water as any of their other acquisitions. The issue is they took an existing character and did the conversion process. So... how the hell did that work?

Its just a DLC skin and not an actual story element?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 argonak wrote:


Has it been said whats required to turn Space Marines into Primaris?

I just assumed Cawl "gifted" the Blood Ravens the upgrade technology. That's my excuse for my Blood Raven Primaris anyway.

Supposedly the geneseed of their original founding legion is used to create Primaris (NVM how soaked in BS this is). In the event of 'new' primaris marines this is a non-issue, as your idea about them being 'gifted' to the Magpies would hold as much water as any of their other acquisitions. The issue is they took an existing character and did the conversion process. So... how the hell did that work?

Its just a DLC skin and not an actual story element?

Yeah I'd not take a DLC skin in DOW3 as proof of anything.

as for chapters like the Blood ravens, keep in mind Gulliman ALSO taught chapters how to MAKE their OWN Primaris Marines,

Being taugh something and being able to do something aren't the same thing.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Being taugh something and being able to do something aren't the same thing.

I think unless given strong evidance to the contrary we should assume these lessons took. As it's pretty clear this was GW's work around to allow chapters with "mysterious orgins" to have Primaris Marines.

Getting back to the original question though, codex Space Marines provides us with SOME answers, Chapters with other primarchs as their progenator seem to be reacling petty poisitively to Gulliman. he may not be THEIR Primarch, but he's A Primarch and thats a pretty big deal. we see in the HH books numerous stories of space marines meeting primarchs whom are not their own and STILL "fan boying" over them.

Gulliman, like all Primarchs is a VERY charismatic individual. codex SMs shows how the crimson fists interact with him,. they show him managaging to bring the Black templars onside, not by ordering it, but by KNOWING them etc.

Another thing, this idea that thgere's this big anti-gulliman sentiment from non UM sucessors? thats more a fanon meme that is incorrect. the guys HIGHLY respected by all space marines, just like every other loyalist primarch

I hear rumor the Carcharodons got Primaris through their super-secret contacts in the Imperium. Girlyman can go suck a dick.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I hear rumor the Carcharodons got Primaris through their super-secret contacts in the Imperium. Girlyman can go suck a dick.

You got any proof of that, or is that just fanon?

As we've seen, the vast majority of Chapters embraced Guilliman's new reforms: therefore, it would stand to reason that the default is to assume that a Chapter would obey him.

BrianDavion is right: the idea that Guilliman is disliked or unpopular simply doesn't line up with the lore we've been shown. It's an unfunny meme at best, or the projections of players salty because of the 5th Edition codex, or that THEIR favourite Primarch didn't come back, at worst.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I hear rumor the Carcharodons got Primaris through their super-secret contacts in the Imperium. Girlyman can go suck a dick.

You got any proof of that, or is that just fanon?

As we've seen, the vast majority of Chapters embraced Guilliman's new reforms: therefore, it would stand to reason that the default is to assume that a Chapter would obey him.

BrianDavion is right: the idea that Guilliman is disliked or unpopular simply doesn't line up with the lore we've been shown. It's an unfunny meme at best, or the projections of players salty because of the 5th Edition codex, or that THEIR favourite Primarch didn't come back, at worst.

It's actually from the dude writing the Carcharodons books, Robbie MacNiven. Carcharodons scored the tech to gene-forge Primaris marines through currently-mysterious contacts that are not Cawl.

Girlyman can suck a dick is just my hate for the second-douchiest Primarch.

Whose the first douchiest?

pm713 wrote:
Whose the first douchiest?

Johnson

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Whose the first douchiest?

Johnson

No. Rogal Dorne is the douchiest. Hell, the Iron Warriors and Night Lords both might have sided with the Emperor if Dorne's douchbaggery hadn't driven them away from the Imperium. Johnson may be a piece of crap, but he didn't actively drive any Legions into Lorgar's rebellion.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Whose the first douchiest?

Johnson

No. Rogal Dorne is the douchiest. Hell, the Iron Warriors and Night Lords both might have sided with the Emperor if Dorne's douchbaggery hadn't driven them away from the Imperium. Johnson may be a piece of crap, but he didn't actively drive any Legions into Lorgar's rebellion.

bs.

What EXACTLY did Dorn do to drive the iron warriors away from the imperium ?

Honestly claiming that he was as good a siegemaster as Perturabo ?

I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

godking wrote:


What EXACTLY did Dorn do to drive the iron warriors away from the imperium

Honestly claiming that he was as good a siegemaster as Perturabo ?

He kept stealing Perturabo's credit, apparently. Got all the nice shiny medals and statues and public acclamation after the Iron Warriors did most of the dying. The Death Guard had a similar complaint.

EmpNortonII wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Whose the first douchiest?

Johnson

No. Rogal Dorne is the douchiest. Hell, the Iron Warriors and Night Lords both might have sided with the Emperor if Dorne's douchbaggery hadn't driven them away from the Imperium. Johnson may be a piece of crap, but he didn't actively drive any Legions into Lorgar's rebellion.

Fulgrim was the one that betrayed Curze's council to Dorn. Dorn lacking people skills tried to talk to him in his normal manner. Curze had a vision and flipped, Dorn arrested him. Hardly Dorn's (or Curze's) fault he was maneuvered by Fulgrim.

Perty fell because he couldnt be the best, and he hated that Dorn answered honestly.

Ketara wrote:


He kept stealing Perturabo's credit, apparently. Got all the nice shiny medals and statues and public acclamation after the Iron Warriors did most of the dying. The Death Guard had a similar complaint.

Except that wasn't Dorn's doing, he wasn't going around and forcing the Remembrancers to give him all the credit, they did that of their own accord.

Plus literally everyone was given the credit over the Iron Warriors and the Death Guard, they weren't the 'glamorous' and 'noble' Legions bringing the light of the Emperor. Perty had jealousy issues and an over inflated sense of self worth. Dorn was doing his job and cared little for the credit.

That probably makes it worse. One thing worse than stealing credit is doing it without trying.

Well doing work like that is what the Emperor created the Iron Warriors to do. Then when Dorn is told to go in and finish it, by the Emperor its hardly his fault. Its not just Dorn who the Remembrancers gave all the credit, when fighting along side the Wolf and the Khan, Perty was listed as just a 'Comrade in Arms'

Considering Perty had issues with pretty much every Primarch and not just Dorn, I'd say the core of the problem is very much Perterabo himself.

He disliked everyone. He was disliked, his methods were disliked, and they weren't 'glamorous' to the artists.

Honestly it sounds like the Emperor should have thought to let the Warriors win more or tell remembrancers not to forget them...

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Pretty sure the turning point for the Thousand Sons was Magnus making mistakes and Horus ordering them all killed.

They sided with the Traitors. They are indisputably Traitors. You can argue whether or not they are Chaos but they are definitely Traitors.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Guilliman was right in regards to the Alpha Legion though. They intentionally made things harder just so they could try to prove how competent they were. They caused more damage and casualties, making conquered worlds take longer to contribute as much to the Imperium, because of their pride. Speed of compliance was important.

Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

 Ketara wrote:

godking wrote:


What EXACTLY did Dorn do to drive the iron warriors away from the imperium

Honestly claiming that he was as good a siegemaster as Perturabo ?

He kept stealing Perturabo's credit, apparently. Got all the nice shiny medals and statues and public acclamation after the Iron Warriors did most of the dying. The Death Guard had a similar complaint.

Here is Perturabo's sister completly destroying Perturabo's viewpoint.

Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'

Dorn did nothing to drive Perturabo to Chaos.

pm713 wrote:

Pretty sure the turning point for the Thousand Sons was Magnus making mistakes and Horus ordering them all killed.

I think it was when Magnus got split into pieces and most of his dominant good bits ended up wandering off to Terra, leaving the more negative aspects of his soul to command the Legion. Up until that point, he had nothing to do with the Heresy. Then his more rage filled/arrogant/resentful side announced that they were joining in to get that half of him back from Terra.

 ChazSexington wrote:

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.



Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

I can't really see Guilliman saying the blunt truth about Alpharius' way of war having had meaningful impact on someone who would otherwise have been Loyal. The old fluff said the Alpha Legion got so obsessed with proving itself it desired to fight other Space Marines to demonstrate their superiority. Being closer to Horus led Alpharius that way. I don't see Guilliman as having much impact on the situation. Blaming Guilliman for Monarchia was unfair. He did what the Emperor ordered him to as any other Legion would have.


Guilliman wasn't that diplomatic but snubbing Alpharius doesn't strike me as having a significant influence on Alpharius' decision, pre or post Legion fluff.

ChazSexington wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side.

Yes, but you could say that the fact the Alpha Legion were distrusted by MOST Legions as being PART of the reason too. Guilliman told Alpharius what he thought, but he was hardly the only Primarch to have that opinion.

And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

They followed the Emperor's orders, overseen by him. It wasn't their decision or desire. If not Guilliman, the Emperor would have had any other Legion do it - perhaps even the Sons of Horus, or Space Wolves (again - exactly what the Space Wolves were GOING to do to Magnus, without the kill order added by Horus).

However you cut it, Guilliman was no different to Russ, except Russ took it further and went to actively KILL Magnus.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

Hardly. It's no worse than what Russ and Angron have said to eachother during the Night of the Wolf. Again, Guilliman wasn't the nicest guy, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lion actively snubbing Horus, Angron being confrontational with EVERYONE, Perty and Dorn being at eachother's throats, etc etc - even if Guilliman was responsible for turning a Legion Traitor, he wasn't the only one.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Guilliman was right in regards to the Alpha Legion though. They intentionally made things harder just so they could try to prove how competent they were. They caused more damage and casualties, making conquered worlds take longer to contribute as much to the Imperium, because of their pride. Speed of compliance was important.

Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

So if I said to you that I am better than you, that gives you carte blanche to go on a murderous rampage?
What Guilliman did was not even as bad as that, they were debating and Guilliman just pointed out the obvious success of his methods.
If something like that sets you off to such a degree then you're not mentally healthy.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

I agree with Sgt_Smudge and Animus here. The thing is, you can argue the Alpha Legion were doing the same, if not worse in regards to saying "look how much better I am". Guillimans point wasn't that he thought the Alpha Legion were inherently inferior, he was pointing out that things were needlessly complex with the AL because of their pathological need to make the simplest thing complex. I think he pointed to his victories not necessarily out of hubris (well there is some, every Primarch seems to have a sense of pride that can get trampled on, understandably given their abilities and track records, combined with the fact they basically grew to adulthood and handed armies within years without a proper childhood to be taught the nuances of social interactions. I just don't think it's the main factor here), but as examples of efficiency. He's basically trying to tell the AL: "look, if you only break the door to get into the planet it's much quicker on all levels, you don't need to setup a Rube Goldberg machine that destroys everything around the door so that it finally falls over. See how many victories I have? It's faster brother, trust me." But it comes across to everyone else like he's gloating, and he is in part (he'd be proud of his conquests naturally), but it has a reason to what he is saying. He's not being needlessly cruel or vindictive to Alpharius and Omegon, he's just backing up his claim with actual facts. His compliances generally I'd wager were much faster, and achieving compliance after the battles were done was probably magnitudes faster than what the AL could do, and it's not like the AL was in protracted sieges like the IW out of necessity that lead to the collateral damage, it was because they choose to draw out fights when they could have finished it in a day and preserved infrastructure merely to prove their military acumen. Plus in all the books I read I get the impression the AL don't actually care about what Roboute said, and from the scene with the Cabal it appears Roboute had no effect on Alpharious' decision regardless of each other's opinions of each other. Plus if Alpharius had an axe to grind we would have seen something by now (book-wise). Roboute made Imperium Secundus and disbanded it to go to Terra and throughout that whole time no AL actions had occured, which is maybe a few years out of the 7? If the AL wanted to I'm sure they could have tracked down the Pharos and made life hell for Roboute during Imperium Secundus, but they didn't so I don't really think they took offense to their actions like how the WB did to the UM or IW to IF.

Back on hand, I don't think any of the chapters would object to Roboute's rule of the Imperium. They may get a bit defensive if Roboute puts his hand too far down in their proverbial cookie jar but as an overall commander they'd respect him immensely. I know it's common and sometimes liked to on Roboute but I think it's unfair most of the time, he's still a Primarch and a son of the Emperor, and a well rounded one at that. In universe the loyalists Primarchs by now were revered as saints basically, so if a chapter heard that a Primarch was here they'd not really care which primarch, they'd follow him. We saw this with Vulkan in the war of the beast series, all of the IF descendants were willing to defer to the Primarch, even if he wasn't their Primarch. Sure friction might come later but the initial reaction would be completely positive, and generally I don't think many chapters would actually interact with him personally for any extended amount of time.

R0bert, good call on the War of the Beast incident - it's sometimes easy to forget that we've already had a Primarch return since they all left.

As we saw, the Imperium largely all rallied behind Vulkan, including the entirety of the Imperial Fists LEGION. That was with the Beast attacking - I'm sure that Guilliman coming as the Imperium is SPLIT IN TWO would be welcomed with open arms.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

I can't really see Guilliman saying the blunt truth about Alpharius' way of war having had meaningful impact on someone who would otherwise have been Loyal. The old fluff said the Alpha Legion got so obsessed with proving itself it desired to fight other Space Marines to demonstrate their superiority. Being closer to Horus led Alpharius that way. I don't see Guilliman as having much impact on the situation. Blaming Guilliman for Monarchia was unfair. He did what the Emperor ordered him to as any other Legion would have.


Guilliman wasn't that diplomatic but snubbing Alpharius doesn't strike me as having a significant influence on Alpharius' decision, pre or post Legion fluff.

Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ChazSexington wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side.

Yes, but you could say that the fact the Alpha Legion were distrusted by MOST Legions as being PART of the reason too. Guilliman told Alpharius what he thought, but he was hardly the only Primarch to have that opinion.

And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

They followed the Emperor's orders, overseen by him. It wasn't their decision or desire. If not Guilliman, the Emperor would have had any other Legion do it - perhaps even the Sons of Horus, or Space Wolves (again - exactly what the Space Wolves were GOING to do to Magnus, without the kill order added by Horus).

However you cut it, Guilliman was no different to Russ, except Russ took it further and went to actively KILL Magnus.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

Hardly. It's no worse than what Russ and Angron have said to eachother during the Night of the Wolf. Again, Guilliman wasn't the nicest guy, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lion actively snubbing Horus, Angron being confrontational with EVERYONE, Perty and Dorn being at eachother's throats, etc etc - even if Guilliman was responsible for turning a Legion Traitor, he wasn't the only one.

Russ did very clearly drive a Legion into rebellion, much against their own will, I agree. I don't think we disagree, I didn't mean to convey that I thought Guilliman was the only one to mess up. Guilliman did eventually drive the Word Bearers into rebellion and allow the Heresy to truly begin, so he might be more culpable than others, but there were certainly others. I mean, nobody on the Traitor side really got on with anyone but Horus (Magnus and Lorgar as an exception).

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

pm713 wrote:

Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

The Alpha Legion was already fighting inefficiently. It was Alpharius' pride that compelled him to fight greater and greater opposition. It's why Guilliman was trying to advise him (albeit undiplomatically) on fighting the Great Crusade.

ChazSexington wrote:Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

Guilliman wasn't the only one who did that (Russ tried it with Angron for one thing) but I find it unlikely that the Primarchs didn't routinely discuss strategy when they met up. They spent most of their lives conducting campaigns so I imagine it came up a lot. Alpharius' fall was entirely his own doing. No Chaos influence, nothing other than people asking him to turn against the Emperor and him choosing to do it.

Considering disobeying wouldn't have changed anything and they evacuated the vast majority of the city if I recall correctly, yeah, I think following orders is a decent excuse. Any other Primarch (including Lorgar if it was another Primarch being sanctioned) would have done the same (some without limiting civilian casualties). What would disobeying orders have done anyway? Lead to the Emperor sanctioning Guilliman as well?

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

It's not silly at all, they were both the heads of a Space Marine legion, if one is doing better the other can emulate it.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

It's not silly at all, they were both the heads of a Space Marine legion, if one is doing better the other can emulate it.

They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point.

You rather miss the point that even before Guilliman was trying to show Alpharius a better way, Alpharius was still wasting time doing things way more drawn out than even Covert style operations need to be done, plus there is a time and place for them, every single compliance operation is not the time or place. Guilliman had already been present for the chastising of one brother for wasting time on the crusade, perhaps he was trying to give a warning as well.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point.

You rather miss the point that even before Guilliman was trying to show Alpharius a better way, Alpharius was still wasting time doing things way more drawn out than even Covert style operations need to be done, plus there is a time and place for them, every single compliance operation is not the time or place. Guilliman had already been present for the chastising of one brother for wasting time on the crusade, perhaps he was trying to give a warning as well.

A good theory, that seems VERY possiable. Gulliman did NOT enjoy being used to deliver the object lesson to Lorgar. (something even Lorgar figured out, there was no Malice in it) he likely wanted to avoid a repeat.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

And what part of that requires going "look how good I am"? None of it.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

And what part of that requires going "look how good I am"? None of it.

Well, except to show that Guilliman isn't just talking from his ass and actually does know a thing or two about conquest.
After all, Guilliman WAS one of the top three Primarchs in terms of successes (Lion for tactics, Horus in general, and Guilliman for logistics, speed and military efficiency - least casualties and most recruits).

Besides, where exactly did Guilliman say "look how good I am"?

pm713 wrote:
Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

Yes, disagreeing. They disagreed on how best to run a Legion and debated this. Guilliman eventually pointed out that his Legion's record was superior to Alpharius'. That's not a taunt or being a donkey cave, that's Guilliman trying to show evidence that he's right.
It's totally insane to try and kill people because they disagreed with you and you're more friendly with others. If my friend asked me to blow up parliament and my reasoning for agreeing was that a member of the cabinet was smug at me one time then I'd be insane.

He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

Sure. He accepted the job. One would assume a sane person with a good work ethic would wish to do the best job possiable when he takes a job

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

Sure. He accepted the job. One would assume a sane person with a good work ethic would wish to do the best job possiable when he takes a job

So, Alpharius could have been ambivalent about Emp's plans and just having fun.

 EmpNortonII wrote:



So, Alpharius could have been ambivalent about Emp's plans and just having fun.

I mean, possibly? We really don't have any information on how Alpharius and Omegon felt about the Emperor, it's not likely they hated him but it doesn't seem they particularly loved him either (the whole killing him to defeat Chaos thing). Now his plans may be a separate thing entirely, but again they were willing to abandon it to "save humanity" so based on that it does seem they were apathetic about it at worst, at best they might have believed in the Emperor's plan until the Cabal, and then thought his plans were meaningless anyway after. As an aside I think it's funny Alpharius and Omegon were swayed so quickly by the Cabal. Both Primarchs run their legion based on misdirection and misinformation so I feel like their response should have been much more skeptical. Or maybe they were, and just said yes so the Cabal would let them go (I don't really see the Cabal just letting them leave if they refused) and planned on sabotaging Horus' rebellion? That would explain some of their behavior (destroying that one station, the WS thing), and maybe they attacked the SW because they destroyed the TS and thought just maybe Russ was following Horus' orders not because he was duped but because he was in on the plan too? But that doesn't explain the Seventh Serpent or sabotaging the RG by stealing the genetic data also. Basically with the AL who knows? I hardly expect every head of the Hydra to work well together though, as they are so independent I doubt all the heads know what the others are doing, not to mention the feet and tail XD.

Semi off topic from the off topic (plus Spoilers for Praetorian of Dorn)

Didn't read spoilers.

Anyways, I think there was an original topic somewhere.....

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

 Just Tony wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

IIRC there's no line in a book that says "The Lion was jealous of Horus" but some of his actions etc indicate a degree of Jealousy. that said I think at the same time MOST Primarchs felt that way to one degree or another. Parituclalry the more sucessful ones. most where capable of stepping back and going "yeah ok Horus is a good pick." but you can be sure plenty also would have loved to have been named. The Lion and Gulliman both I think would have relished being named warmaster (Sanguinis is proably the only primarch whom would not have)

So it was conjecture someone tried to pass off as fact? Got it.






In my mind, it all depends on what mindset the writers are writing the Astartes from. If it's from the Ward era where every non Ultramarines chapter or founding Legion secretly wishes they were Ultramarines, then I guess they would follow without event. If ANY other writer handled it, there would be some autonomy. Now whether that would lead to friction, I guess it depends on the headstrong nature of whatever Chapter was being addressed at the time. Raven Guard? I doubt it. Dark Angels? Pursue their own ends but make it look like they are towing the line wholeheartedly. Space Wolves? Yeah, forget about it.

 Just Tony wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

He hands over siege weaponry to Perturabo at the outset of the Heresy (as he didn't know Perturabo had gone rogue) in exchange for his support in becoming Warmaster once Horus was defeated. These weapons were later used in cracking the defences of the Imperial Palace. He most definitely wanted the rank of Warmaster, but he didn't ever suggest Horus din't deserve it (at the time).

One thing wanting title after previous now traitor is defeated, another thing of being jealous of him in the first place

My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

Which shows the Lion's blindness as to one of the important realities of high level leadership. the Lion's.... likability issues though make sense, when you consider that of all the primarchs he's really the only one who had to deal with a large scale revolt within his own Legion

I'm fairly sure it says in Horus Rising that the Lion saw the appointment of Horus as a bit of a snub because the Lion though he deserved It more than Horus.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

Which shows the Lion's blindness as to one of the important realities of high level leadership. the Lion's.... likability issues though make sense, when you consider that of all the primarchs he's really the only one who had to deal with a large scale revolt within his own Legion

To be fair the Lion probably wouldn't see that as important to leading an army. He gives orders people do them. Liking has nothing to do with it. Of course there's a reason he had a revolt.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'm fairly sure it says in Horus Rising that the Lion saw the appointment of Horus as a bit of a snub because the Lion though he deserved It more than Horus.

It does say that, you're right.

Even Horus didn't want to be Warmaster - he thought Sanguinius would be better suited for it. However, we do know that Lion definitely saw it as a snub. As for Guilliman, I wouldn't be surprised if he had something against Horus for it, but I don't think there's any evidence. I vaguely recall him talking about it in Know No Fear, but I can't remember.

I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

He was the most popular brother, the only one that got along with all of the Primarchs. Even Horus had Corax to share some dislike with.

That's somewhat ironic. The mutant who should be hunted by Imperium standards is the popular one...

Well, his mutation was angel wings, he was the best looking, and he was the most caring out of all of them.

That and Primarchs got a lot more leeway for being a bit more 'unique' compared to most.

My personal ranking for Warmaster was Horus > Sanguinius > Guilliman > Lion > any of the rest.

Mutation is mutation. I would have thought Vulkan was the most caring personally.

Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

He broke Ka'Bandha's back over his knee and then proceeded to go fight Horus.

Sanguinius was possibly the greatest, because there was literally not a single Primarch that disliked him. Hell, Angron only had a rivalry with him. He was the noblest of them, which Horus tried to exploit at Signus.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinius came closest. He understood Curze and genuinely felt sympathy for his brother (Angels of Caliban). Curze handed himself over to Sanguinius, hoping to be executed, but Sanguinius refused.

Horus or Mortarion probably didn't have a big issue with Space Batsy, but Sanguinius cared more for him than any of the others.

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion.

A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion. A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

Besides, didn't most of the Primarchs agree that Sanguinius was the best swordsman among them? And some thought only Angron would have any chance at all if Sanguinius went berserk in the duel?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

Because he was the only one that mastered compassion. A leader without compassion will eventually cause a rebellion in their ranks. See also: The Emperor.

Besides, didn't most of the Primarchs agree that Sanguinius was the best swordsman among them? And some thought only Angron would have any chance at all if Sanguinius went berserk in the duel?

The Khan, the Lion, Curze, Sanguinius, Russ, Angron, and Fulgrim were probably the top, judging by exploits and opinions from the books. I have a sneaky suspicion the Khan may the best, especially after how he crushed Mortarion on Prospero, possibly a pre-total mental collapse Curze. While some obviously sought to be recognised (Mortarion) as the best swordsmen/mêlée fighter, I can't imagine it was that coveted. I can't imagine Lorgar, Alpharius, Magnus etc. gave a rat's arse.

I'm pretty sure Sanguinius, Horus and Angron are portrayed as being the top fighters most consistently.

Curze's abilities are all over the place since one author said his precognition can work to his advantage in combat but I'm not sure if other authors have followed that interpretation. Situation and just plain luck would play a factor. One Primarch can win one day and lose the next because that's just how things are sometimes.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

I'll get there eventually. On unremembered Empire right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

R0bcrt wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

Fulgrim tutored Konrad after he'd been found by the Emperor.... so they'd gotten along well enough up to that point.

If I remember correctly, the public spectacle with Curze arming the prisoner in front of Dorn and then killing him had already happened. I believe Fulgrim had been fighting on the same planet- I have a hard time believing that Fulgrim missed that incident. Heck, I have a hard time recalling someone that Curze got along with worse.

After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Sanguinis of all the Primarchs was the closest to having an understanding with Cruz. Ruinstorm makes this clear

I'll get there eventually. On unremembered Empire right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

R0bcrt wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vulkan was very humanitarian, but Sanguinius cared about Astartes, humans, the Imperium in general and his brothers.

Some of them. I mean, did *any*one actually like Curze?

Due to their mutual psychic abilities, Sanguinius may have had a connection to Kurze. Maybe not 'like', but a sort of understanding or sympathy?

Mortarion kinda understood Night Hunters war style and appeal. They were both the goth outcasts and really played up the Angels of Death theme. Also Fulgrim tried to help. Fulgrim was pretty chummy with all the Primarchs, in a friendly frat boy type of way.

Fulgrim ratted him out to Dorn. Curze may have *thought* Fulgrim was his friend, but I don't think that's the case. Friends don't rat on friends.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it as “ratting him out”. It’s not like Curze said he broke Dorn’s favorite wall, he said some pretty heavy and distressing stuff about his death and the other primarchs to Fulgrim, which could have unsettled Fulgrim enough to also confide in Dorn. Given Dorn’s implacable reputation I could see the thought process. I’m not sure if Fulgrim was the Night Naunter’s friend either, but I don’t think there was anything malicious or devious in Fulgrim’s actions either, potentially the opposite. If one of my friend’s confided to me about something of similiar gravity (thoughts of suicide/other mental issues, drug habit, something equally dark really), I wouldn’t just sit on the knowledge hoping things resolve themselves. Friends don’t rat out friends on minor things, but sometimes making the call to have an intervention is exactly what a friend should do, it’s just a shame Dorn (Curze’s personality also doesn’t help) wasn’t equipped with the nuances required for the task.

Fulgrim tutored Konrad after he'd been found by the Emperor.... so they'd gotten along well enough up to that point.

If I remember correctly, the public spectacle with Curze arming the prisoner in front of Dorn and then killing him had already happened. I believe Fulgrim had been fighting on the same planet- I have a hard time believing that Fulgrim missed that incident. Heck, I have a hard time recalling someone that Curze got along with worse.

Yeah he should have been on that planet, so I think he probably heard of the incident (though let's be honest, since Fulgrim was tutoring Konrad Fulgrim probably just sighed upon hearing the incident- it's par for the course for Curze so I'd be more shocked if Fulgrim didn't know that side of Curze). Even then, before that Dorn was trying to be friendly (albeit forcing it as Curze noted), and after the incident was stern but not threatening violence, only that a serious talk was needed (maybe that would have turned violent but who knows?). It wasn't until after Fulgrim told Dorn about his visions that Dorn lost his temper, but it wasn't violent until Curze had his vision and returned to consciousness perched atop Dorn after clawing him, and that's when the problems really began to snowball. Since Dorn was trying to be friendly to Curze and even mentor him a bit too before this, I can see Fulgrim turning to Dorn after those serious visions were told to him. Relations with Dorn weren't great, but it wasn't particularly bad until after this event is the implication I'm getting, so it's not too far fetched Fulgrim went to Dorn thinking a paragon of implacability would help resolve Fulgrim's concerns and also somehow help Curze, which it obviously didn't.

If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

That short story where Konrad was going to kill all the captured enemy troops and Dorn threw a bitch-fit and Konrad said they're all still disloyal at heart and Dorn said to be nice so Konrad gave a prisoner a weapon and ordered his men to not intervene and the prisoner tried to shoot and Konrad killed him. No? Not ringing a bell?

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

 EmpNortonII wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
If I recall correctly all we know about the Dorn-Curze incident was that Dorn learnt about Curze's visions about the Emperor killing him, stormed in to confront him and the next thing we know is that Curze was perched on top of Dorn having torn chunks out of him.

I don't think we can really judge Dorn on the basis of that. Curze's reaction was completely unpredictable. He was mentally ill in a dangerous way.

... just reminder that the last time Dorn confronted Curze, Curze was right. Dude totally shot Konrad once he thought he could get away with it. Should have given Dorn a reason to *maybe* consider Curze was right again.

Was he right though? Okay, yes, literally Curze was right, but he basically pulled a “that addict can’t reform!” and handed the person their addiction at the same time, ie he fundamentally skewed the outcome by his actions. Considering Curze and the Night Lords had been doing god awful things to the populace (hence why Dorn came), for all we know that man saw his wife and children flayed alive among who knows what, and it was probably those actions that lead him to decide pulling the trigger was worth it. In this regard i ultimately see the event as working in Dorn’s argument, Curze’s use of fear works well when you personally beat someone into submission and watch over them, but the second hope is offered or a chance is seen to escape that fear (killing Curze), then people will attempt it. It forces compliance but not genuine compliance, which was Dorn’s point. We see it here, but we also see it in Nostramo too which reinforces this for me (his version of compliance falls apart the second he is gone).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

It's set not long after Leviathan's attack on Baal.

 Robin5t wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
After reading The Last Hunt, the White Scars still aren't even sure if the rumours about his return are legit, apparently. It's crazy how much the Cicatrix Maledictum messed up the half of the Imperium that's gone dark.

IIRC the last hunt is early in the indomatus crusade, but that's very likely the case in a lot of places, news travels slow in 40k as a general rule, and something like Gulliman's turn likely sounds like one of those "too good to be true" rumors

It's set not long after Leviathan's attack on Baal.

right so early in the Indomatus crusade.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


That short story where Konrad was going to kill all the captured enemy troops and Dorn threw a bitch-fit and Konrad said they're all still disloyal at heart and Dorn said to be nice so Konrad gave a prisoner a weapon and ordered his men to not intervene and the prisoner tried to shoot and Konrad killed him. No? Not ringing a bell?

My mistake, I misread what you wrote.

Still, Curze's methods weren't superior. An enemy might still want to kill you because of what you've done to their homeland but Curze used terror to cow populations. His method never created loyalty. Horus' methods at least kept collateral damage down. People like Guilliman created loyal and productive worlds without the same brutality. As for Dorn, I don't actually recall if it's said how he handled worlds he'd made compliant. Either way, Curze's methods were unsound. He was the sort of person who'd keep on creating enemies due to his horrific actions. People would remain resentful for generations. The worlds he conquered weren't properly integrated (the same can be said for many other Primarchs but they tended not to leave such brutalised populations behind).

Keep in mind Curze hated his own legion, and really hated himself too. He was basically an overwhelmingly depressed individual with a sense of justice born with superhuman powers and later given a legion of super soldiers. I'd be impressed that things went so well to be honest.

And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

The terran born criminals might have been pulled from the areas they managed to liberate from the other technology Barbarians.

So a degree of debt to the emparor and his armies.

The emparor was not only one who used prisons.
He took the vault off someone else I'm sure. He never built it.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

At first. There quirks and traits began to show more as they crusaded.

The traits where most evident when primarchs found and began to shape legions with own recruits.

The old terrans where somewhat of two worlds and remembered the first founding of the legions.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
And let's not forget that the legion of supersoldiers was made up of criminal scum.

Not originally as I recall, and I'm not sure Curze actually had anything to do with that practice rather than simply being too apathetic to do anything about it. But yes, that is another good point.

They were - even the Terran recruits came out of prison cells.

Where did this information come from? I was under the impression that the original legion marines created on Earth were more or less all recruited/trained in the same fashion with each of the different gene seeds used. I mean *tons* of the Horus Heresy narratives revolve around the earth formed marines conflicting with the marines created from the populations of the primachs home planets.

The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

 vonjankmon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

Hey, Emparor is perfect. He can do nothing wrong.

And they should be loyal because they got freed by the Emparor.
He always has loyalty of those he liberates or rescues!

 vonjankmon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


The Forge World Horus Heresy Campaign books.

The initial runs for the Night Lords were children of people imprisoned by the Emperor's Enemies. So not prisoners by right of having done anything wrong, but by right of having been born to prisoners. They grew up in that environment and adapted to it, becoming murderers and thieves. Basically they are Nolan Bane, they never saw the light until they were already Astartes.

Wow, thanks for the source, appreciate it. As much as I like most of the HH stories sometimes I wish they didn't explore it because it has really made the Emperor look like a flaming idiot and that it was a miracle that the rebellion took as long as it did to occur.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with making a bunch of prisoners into super soldiers? Lets give it a try!

Well i mean, he might have been leaning on the idea of, his forces liberated them so there's the chance they would be loyal to him (not the best thing to bank on). And for a time they were because of that and Indoctrination.

so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

Yeah but mentally unstable people, super soldiers or not are generally not what you want to rely on in the long term, even if they are loyal to you initially because you freed them.

I guess maybe if he was planning on getting rid of the Space Marines like he did to the Thunder Warriors it may have made sense as you just needed them for a short(ish) period of time but the creation of the Primachs seems to suggest that he wanted them around for the long term.

There's just a building disconnect between the "Super powerful psycher that is so smart and powerful" that the Emperor was always portrayed as and the weirdly out of touch and clueless Emperor that the HH novels seem to be showing now.

I really have to wonder if when Roboute met with the Emperor he came to that conclusion, had his perfect world finally shattered between that and what the Imperium had become then just said "Feth it, I can do better, here hold my beer." and started getting the Imperium back in order. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the fluff when another loyalist Primach returns, whether it's Russ or the Lion or whatever.

LightKing wrote:
so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

Not everyone, I'm sure there are some people in the Adeptus Terra who dislike him, but among Space Marines this is true, the Man is a Primarch and a highly respected one at that, with an impressive military and civic record. Also worth noting is that the Ultramarines, as a Legion, don't have any long standing grudges/feuds (such as the Dark Angels/Space Wolves) that could complicate matters for him. This BTW is WHY Gulliman was the first loyalist Primarch to return. Of all the Loyal Primarchs Gulliman, is the most able to serve as a "leader for all the Imperium"
Most if not all of the other loyalist primarchs wou;dn't fill that role easily. so now that we have Gulliman back, they can build around that.

I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Why does it not make sense? He's a symbol that the Imperium can rally behind, a man of war and politics a son of the Emperor and the one who held it together after the Heresy. Plus he's more reasonable than the Emperor. The Eldar need Humanity strong in order to stave off the end of the Galaxy.

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

Also he a already setting a record unlike past 10,000 years or so of getting stiff done. Cutting aside red tape and just making things hapoen.

Massive change. He only figure who can force the others to work with him. And also unify beyond there own smaller petty goals.

He only figure who can rally the kind of force he has, ans also start going. This will be done now.

Not in decades.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

LightKing wrote:so Roboute is well liked by everyone right now?

More or less. We've not really seen anyone beyond higher ranking Administratum and Admech personnel have an issue with him, and even then they don't make active issues. As a Primarch, he is pretty much liked by all Space Marines of any stripe, and humans will suffer the "OMG IT'S A PRIMARCH" effect we see in the Horus Heresy.

pm713 wrote:I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Is this in a in-universe standpoint or a meta standpoint?

Assuming it's in-universe, it gives the Imperium single figure who can make executive decisions, a morale boost, more direct tactical and strategic advantages. The latter two are exclusive to Guilliman, but having a way to bypass the politiking of the HLOT and the massive morale benefit of such a leader, as well as a more reasonable mind in a changing universe. Plus, Guilliman gave us Primaris Marines. The Emperor didn't.

What I find so conflicting with the setting is how OK everyone seems to be with all the radical changes going on. Gulliman is resurrected with the help of Eldar death god fanatics and now the ranks of the Imperium's best warriors (the space marines) are being infiltrated by spawns of techno-heresy in the form of "primaris marines" created by Cawl (and not the design of Big E). We have xenos taint, possibly chaos taint (ynnari could be the pawn of chaos for all we know), tech heresy, and probably some regular heresy thrown into the mix as well and somehow this series of events isn't raising massive alarm bells for every Inquisitor, High Lord, Ecclesial and Planetary/Sector leader in the Imperium? What if this is all a plan by Chaos to spread its "agents" into place to eventually turn against the proper Space Marines (pull an order 66) and break the Imperium's spear tip opening the door for chaos to roll all of the IoM.

Personally I don't think GW would do something like that because of marketing reasons but in universe it would be a fairly reasonable conclusion to come to if your entire purpose is to be ever vigil of any hint of corruption and heresy within the IoM.

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Was he even picked at all? I thought he just got to terra, talked with the Emperor, then took control and no one objected. And even imperial officials that potentially do have a problem with it wouldn't exactly speak up--I imagine they'd be killed for disloyalty/heresy almost immediately.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

Why does it not make sense? He's a symbol that the Imperium can rally behind, a man of war and politics a son of the Emperor and the one who held it together after the Heresy. Plus he's more reasonable than the Emperor. The Eldar need Humanity strong in order to stave off the end of the Galaxy.

But not so united they're a problem afterwards. Unless the Eldar are going to reveal they control him which would make much more sense.... Plus Humanity were strong before.

I'm sure there are Inquisitors and tech-priests who disagree with what's going on. What are they going to do about it, though? The Imperium is in bits, the military might is gladly following a resurrected demigod (who met the Emperor, remember - that's a massive boost to his legitimacy right there) and the more outlandish bits are likely secret; I seriously doubt anyone who wasn't in the room when he woke up knows that Guilliman was resurrected by Eldar.

Is there any proof he actually met the Emperor though? For all anyone knows he wandered into a room, chilled out for a while and came out saying he spoke with the Big E.

Considering they're Inqusitors I wouldn't be surprised if some of them spent some time getting ready for a chance to get rid of Roboute and lying low.

There's plenty of Custodes who'd have seen it, I imagine.

pm713 wrote:
Is there any proof he actually met the Emperor though? For all anyone knows he wandered into a room, chilled out for a while and came out saying he spoke with the Big E.

Considering they're Inqusitors I wouldn't be surprised if some of them spent some time getting ready for a chance to get rid of Roboute and lying low.

In Dark Imperium, they show the scene. The Emperor and Guilliman talk, and Guilliman realises that the Emperor is less of a father and more of a worker using tools to complete the job. It's a real meeting, not an alleged one.

Plus, the Custodes support Guilliman's claim, and they're the closest bodyguards the Emperor has. A Living Saint has vouched for him. Greyfax, a senior Inquisitor fights with him. Voldus, a leader of the Grey Knights, supports him. He has the vast majority of all Imperial forces at his command. Even Mars, through Cawl, is under his sway.

Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?
He's already been in this position before. This kind of power isn't new to him. Hell, he probably had MORE power back when he last held command, due to more Astartes (pre-Primaris, anyway), more guardsmen, and more worlds.

Vankraken wrote:

What I find so conflicting with the setting is how OK everyone seems to be with all the radical changes going on. Gulliman is resurrected with the help of Eldar death god fanatics and now the ranks of the Imperium's best warriors (the space marines) are being infiltrated by spawns of techno-heresy in the form of "primaris marines" created by Cawl (and not the design of Big E). We have xenos taint, possibly chaos taint (ynnari could be the pawn of chaos for all we know), tech heresy, and probably some regular heresy thrown into the mix as well and somehow this series of events isn't raising massive alarm bells for every Inquisitor, High Lord, Ecclesial and Planetary/Sector leader in the Imperium? What if this is all a plan by Chaos to spread its "agents" into place to eventually turn against the proper Space Marines (pull an order 66) and break the Imperium's spear tip opening the door for chaos to roll all of the IoM.

Personally I don't think GW would do something like that because of marketing reasons but in universe it would be a fairly reasonable conclusion to come to if your entire purpose is to be ever vigil of any hint of corruption and heresy within the IoM.

How many of those people listed would even know the Eldar had a part in the Resurrection of Guilliman? Little to none of them. Celestine, Greyfax and the Ultramarines are the only ones to survive beyond the Eldar that know and none of them will say anything because it would destabilize the Imperium. The Primaris are there because Guilliman ordered them Ten thousand years ago, Cawl didnt do it cause he got bored. You know what Guilliman was when he ordered them? The Lord Commander of the Imperium, the Emperor's Avenging Son. Anything he said went.

pm713 wrote:
But not so united they're a problem afterwards. Unless the Eldar are going to reveal they control him which would make much more sense.... Plus Humanity were strong before.

Humanity was strong before (and United enough to be a threat going against your own point), but not strong enough to hold the tide back, not strong enough to be the buffer the Eldar need. This was all covered in the Gathering Storm books, the Ynnari have a council meeting about it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

There'll be some groups of inquisitors peering ominously from the shadows of course. The Inquisition has never functioned as a cohesive entity for the most part, and has some pretty batgak crazy individuals in it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

And it's long been established that Johnson is more then content with Guilliman running the show. Johnson is a warrior, he wants to fight. He's got no patience for ruling, is smart enough to know that, and recognizes how it's Guillimans strength.

 djones520 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Who's going to dispute his claim when he has that kind of power, how could they do so without majority demoralising and fracturing the Imperium even more, and more importantly, who would complain when this is just Guilliman stepping BACK into his old role?

I can think of one such individual. He controls 20% of the Astartes once the Watchers in the Dark stop letting him hit the snooze button.

And it's long been established that Johnson is more then content with Guilliman running the show. Johnson is a warrior, he wants to fight. He's got no patience for ruling, is smart enough to know that, and recognizes how it's Guillimans strength.

That's not the impression *I* got from Unremembered empire. The Lion was ready to paste Girlyman if he was trying to run his own Imperium.

Yeah, but that's when he thought Guilliman was trying to usurp the Emperor. Once he realised that wasn't the case, he was happy to leave Guilliman to play logistics whilst he controlled the offensive side of things.

I suspect Guilliman will remember Pharos too well to trust his brother to do that again though.

Reading this thread is just reinforcing why GW has done such a gak job in bringing back Guiliman and introducing the Pramaris marines... shame as i like the models and used to like Guiliman, this new and improved version is gak lol

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm sure there are Inquisitors and tech-priests who disagree with what's going on. What are they going to do about it, though? The Imperium is in bits, the military might is gladly following a resurrected demigod (who met the Emperor, remember - that's a massive boost to his legitimacy right there) and the more outlandish bits are likely secret; I seriously doubt anyone who wasn't in the room when he woke up knows that Guilliman was resurrected by Eldar.

I'm sure there would be a ways to arrange him to die as a martyr. Sooner the Inquisition assassinates him and we can forget this embarrassing chapter the better.

 Crimson wrote:

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.

If recall correctly he's referred to as Regent. He's in command.

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm still not seeing WHY we have a leader of the Imperium. Seeing as the Eldar resurrected a dead man to do it it makes no sense to pick Roboute.

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'm sure there are Inquisitors and tech-priests who disagree with what's going on. What are they going to do about it, though? The Imperium is in bits, the military might is gladly following a resurrected demigod (who met the Emperor, remember - that's a massive boost to his legitimacy right there) and the more outlandish bits are likely secret; I seriously doubt anyone who wasn't in the room when he woke up knows that Guilliman was resurrected by Eldar.

I'm sure there would be a ways to arrange him to die as a martyr. Sooner the Inquisition assassinates him and we can forget this embarrassing chapter the better.

In theory they could over rule him but Guliman has loyalty of most of the space marines, the backing of Custodoes and had a expanded ultramarine sector of 10,000 +marines and to be 500 worlds.

In theory he could command the loyalty of over one million space marines.

He casually deploys a space Marine assault of 4000+ marines, has a Gloriana class battleship as his flagship unmatched by anything but the rock and phalanx.

The combined fleet of marines warships and status as a living saint.

Over ruling Guliman would not be very easy.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.

If recall correctly he's referred to as Regent. He's in command.

Not in the BRB he isn't (I think.) BL of course are again doing their own thing, so I don't know about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

In theory they could over rule him but Guliman has loyalty of most of the space marines, the backing of Custodoes and had a expanded ultramarine sector of 10,000 +marines and to be 500 worlds.

In theory he could command the loyalty of over one million space marines.

He casually deploys a space Marine assault of 4000+ marines, has a Gloriana class battleship as his flagship unmatched by anything but the rock and phalanx.

The combined fleet of marines warships and status as a living saint.

Over ruling Guliman would not be very easy.

So he has basically succeeded in where Horus failed, and achieved the thing he tried to prevent anyone from doing by shattering the legions. Damn, I hate this pompous hypocritical bastard; he would be an an absolutely great villain though, if GW just had balls to take the storyline in that direction.

So he has basically succeeded in where Horus failed, and achieved the thing he tried to prevent anyone from doing by shattering the legions. Damn, I hate this pompous hypocritical bastard; he would be an an absolutely great villain though, if GW just had balls to take the storyline in that direction

And the fluff talks of him hating what he and the Imperium have become - if it helps see it as RG in a Living Hell that he and his father helped to make.

I have much more of an issue with how much of a dick the Lion is - I can't recall any part of the fluff where he is not a dick. He is the one Primarch i really don;t want to see return.

has a Gloriana class battleship as his flagship unmatched by anything but the rock and phalanx.

Where did the ship come from out of interest?

 Crimson wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.

If recall correctly he's referred to as Regent. He's in command.

Not in the BRB he isn't (I think.) BL of course are again doing their own thing, so I don't know about that.

He's LORD COMMANDER of the Imperium. Second to the Emperor himself. He was even before he was incapacitated by Fulgrim, he's never been like one of the normal HLOT. Even if he was, his authority is higher than all the others pretty much combined.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

In theory they could over rule him but Guliman has loyalty of most of the space marines, the backing of Custodoes and had a expanded ultramarine sector of 10,000 +marines and to be 500 worlds.

In theory he could command the loyalty of over one million space marines.

He casually deploys a space Marine assault of 4000+ marines, has a Gloriana class battleship as his flagship unmatched by anything but the rock and phalanx.

The combined fleet of marines warships and status as a living saint.

Over ruling Guliman would not be very easy.

So he has basically succeeded in where Horus failed, and achieved the thing he tried to prevent anyone from doing by shattering the legions. Damn, I hate this pompous hypocritical bastard; he would be an an absolutely great villain though, if GW just had balls to take the storyline in that direction.

Except that he hates (and not just tells people he does, his internal narrative supports this) the position he's in. He can't turn his back on the Imperium, to do so would be to admit defeat, but he doesn't want to be venerated and worshipped. He only visited the sick and dying during the War of Ultramar because his presence helped the sick (a trick from Nurgle). He tolerates the Ecclesiarchy because they keep the Imperium generally unified.

He doesn't want this outcome - in many cases, he wishes he was dead. However, he still has his duty.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
He's LORD COMMANDER of the Imperium.

That is just a title of the top military commander of the Imperium, there have been other Lord Commanders than him. He is 'just' the boss of all the Astra Militarum and the Navy, he is not even de jure boss of the Space Marines, let alone Ad Mech or Ecclesiarchy.

Except that he hates (and not just tells people he does, his internal narrative supports this) the position he's in. He can't turn his back on the Imperium, to do so would be to admit defeat, but he doesn't want to be venerated and worshipped. He only visited the sick and dying during the War of Ultramar because his presence helped the sick (a trick from Nurgle). He tolerates the Ecclesiarchy because they keep the Imperium generally unified.

He doesn't want this outcome - in many cases, he wishes he was dead. However, he still has his duty.

Oh poor tortured Sue! He can commit seppuku if it is so horrible to be a venerated hero with godly powers and massive authority; Imperium did just fine* several millennia without him.

* (Yes citizen, everything is FINE! Cadia was just a minor setback.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
He's LORD COMMANDER of the Imperium.

That is just a title of the top military commander of the Imperium, there have been other Lord Commanders than him. He is 'just' the boss of all the Astra Militarum and the Navy, he is not even de jure boss of the Space Marines, let alone Ad Mech or Ecclesiarchy.

"Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use." From the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, Rick Priestley.

He controlled the ENTIRE military of the Imperium. That's a massive deal. And yes, Lord Commanders have existed, but only as the chairman of the HLOT, as one of them. And not only is Guilliman returning to that role again, but he is now Imperial Regent, according to Dark Imperium - the second to the Emperor.

Sorry, but he really is a cut above the rest, however you spin it, unless you want to ignore lore.

Except that he hates (and not just tells people he does, his internal narrative supports this) the position he's in. He can't turn his back on the Imperium, to do so would be to admit defeat, but he doesn't want to be venerated and worshipped. He only visited the sick and dying during the War of Ultramar because his presence helped the sick (a trick from Nurgle). He tolerates the Ecclesiarchy because they keep the Imperium generally unified.

He doesn't want this outcome - in many cases, he wishes he was dead. However, he still has his duty.

Oh poor tortured Sue! He can commit seppuku if it is so horrible to be a venerated hero with godly powers and massive authority; Imperium did just fine* several millennia without him.

* (Yes citizen, everything is FINE! Cadia was just a minor setback.)

Not just Cadia - the entire north-east of the galaxy. The Imperium was HORRIFICALLY stagnating, more and more daemonic incursions, Ork Waaaghs!, Tyranid Hive Fleets and Necron awakenings were occurring, and the Imperium had been forced to set the Damocles Gulf alight to stop the Tau.
I don't know how you can say that the Imperium was doing just fine. Now, at least they have more hope than before. They have a figurehead who's actually doing something - they have new reinforcements, a better tactical commander.

I don't really know how you can call it Sue-dom. He's a conflicted character, who's realised that he was never more than a tool to his "father", giving him a crisis of faith. There's still only one of him, and he can't be everywhere. He hasn't immediately solved all the Imperium's problems straight away, and had to be rescued when he ran for Terra.

He knows that if he dies now, the Imperium will go into mourning, so that's obviously not a smart move. He really has no choice but to fight on for a situation he wished he was never in, for the good of the Imperium.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
"Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use." From the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, Rick Priestley.

One of the High Lords! Not the boss of them.

He controlled the ENTIRE military of the Imperium. That's a massive deal. And yes, Lord Commanders have existed, but only as the chairman of the HLOT, as one of them. And not only is Guilliman returning to that role again, but he is now Imperial Regent, according to Dark Imperium - the second to the Emperor.

Sorry, but he really is a cut above the rest, however you spin it, unless you want to ignore lore.

The Regent thing is not mentioned in BRB, and until it appears in studio fluff, I regard it as typical BL nonsense. So yes, I will ignore BL lore.

Not just Cadia - the entire north-east of the galaxy. The Imperium was HORRIFICALLY stagnating, more and more daemonic incursions, Ork Waaaghs!, Tyranid Hive Fleets and Necron awakenings were occurring, and the Imperium had been forced to set the Damocles Gulf alight to stop the Tau.
I don't know how you can say that the Imperium was doing just fine. Now, at least they have more hope than before. They have a figurehead who's actually doing something - they have new reinforcements, a better tactical commander.

"This is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure, then prepare yourself now."

"Hope is the beginning of unhappiness."

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

What the hell is this hopey bs you keep talking about, there is no place for hope in 40K!

I don't really know how you can call it Sue-dom. He's a conflicted character, who's realised that he was never more than a tool to his "father", giving him a crisis of faith. There's still only one of him, and he can't be everywhere. He hasn't immediately solved all the Imperium's problems straight away, and had to be rescued when he ran for Terra.

He knows that if he dies now, the Imperium will go into mourning, so that's obviously not a smart move. He really has no choice but to fight on for a situation he wished he was never in, for the good of the Imperium.

He is literally a demigod who is angsting about people worshipping him, who has personally stopped the (amazing and cool) stagnation of the Imperium.


But we have talked about this before, and you don't get it, so I'm not exactly sure why I am doing it again.

 jhe90 wrote:


Over ruling Guliman would not be very easy.

11 Alpha Legion Marines could do it if they caught him without a weapon. He was damned near killed by 10. 11 would do him in. A baker's dozen? Girlyman'd be fethed like Jenna Jameson in a Miramax studio.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
"Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use." From the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, Rick Priestley.

One of the High Lords! Not the boss of them.

He controlled the ENTIRE military of the Imperium. That's a massive deal. And yes, Lord Commanders have existed, but only as the chairman of the HLOT, as one of them. And not only is Guilliman returning to that role again, but he is now Imperial Regent, according to Dark Imperium - the second to the Emperor.

Sorry, but he really is a cut above the rest, however you spin it, unless you want to ignore lore.

The Regent thing is not mentioned in BRB, and until it appears in studio fluff, I regard it as typical BL nonsense. So yes, I will ignore BL lore.

So the ONLY source of lore for you is the BRB?

Feel free to narrow your exposure to the background of 40k, but I think I should remind you, you are in the 40k BACKGROUND section - and Dark Imperium is canon background.
I'm not wrong in saying that Guilliman is Imperial Regent - ignore it if you want, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Not just Cadia - the entire north-east of the galaxy. The Imperium was HORRIFICALLY stagnating, more and more daemonic incursions, Ork Waaaghs!, Tyranid Hive Fleets and Necron awakenings were occurring, and the Imperium had been forced to set the Damocles Gulf alight to stop the Tau.
I don't know how you can say that the Imperium was doing just fine. Now, at least they have more hope than before. They have a figurehead who's actually doing something - they have new reinforcements, a better tactical commander.

"This is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure, then prepare yourself now."

"Hope is the beginning of unhappiness."

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

What the hell is this hopey bs you keep talking about, there is no place for hope in 40K!

Welcome to the exaggeration of 40k.
Grimdark doesn't mean "THERE'S NO GOOD OR HOPE OR ANYTHING EVERYONE'S A TERRIBLE PERSON NOTHING CAN EVER BE GOOD EVERRRRRR". Grimdark means that the setting is generally pessimistic, and that, despite there being hope, the methods by which to achieve it are flawed. In fact, Guilliman shows that PERFECTLY.
His own wants and morals have to be pushed aside in order for humanity to expand. He needs to put aside his own despair and hatred of his father's creation if he wants to see humanity fight back - that includes embracing the church, fighting for a decaying empire, and serving a father who regards him as nothing more than a tool.

Also, emphasis, on "little" on the first sentence. Not absence. Little. Implying some - which is what I suggested. They have a little more hope (plus, canon now supports that VULKAN is the one giving that whole little monologue, so even that is a character's perception.)

I don't really know how you can call it Sue-dom. He's a conflicted character, who's realised that he was never more than a tool to his "father", giving him a crisis of faith. There's still only one of him, and he can't be everywhere. He hasn't immediately solved all the Imperium's problems straight away, and had to be rescued when he ran for Terra.

He knows that if he dies now, the Imperium will go into mourning, so that's obviously not a smart move. He really has no choice but to fight on for a situation he wished he was never in, for the good of the Imperium.

He is literally a demigod who is angsting about people worshipping him, who has personally stopped the (amazing and cool) stagnation of the Imperium.

So if, essentially, little children ran around worshipping you and actively harming themselves and your ideals doing it, you wouldn't be "angsty" about it?

The idea of worship runs HARD against Guilliman. He turned one of his brothers to Chaos because of religion, and he knows that the Emperor HATED it. Of course he'll be opposed to it, especially that worship doesn't seem to be a thing in Macragge so much.

Again, amazing and cool are your personal opinions - you're entitled to them, but it doesn't make it universal. I think changing the nature of the setting with the Imperium losing yet more territory, but growing into a crusading, retaliatory force instead is a welcome change to them constantly defending.

But we have talked about this before, and you don't get it, so I'm not exactly sure why I am doing it again.

I beg to differ, but I can't see what part I'm not getting (beyond disagreeing with your opinion).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

11 Alpha Legion Marines could do it if they caught him without a weapon. He was damned near killed by 10. 11 would do him in. A baker's dozen? Girlyman'd be fethed like Jenna Jameson in a Miramax studio.

They caught him off-guard, without weapons or armour in his study and he still butchered them with his bare hands. Also, Guilliman is noted for learning from his mistakes he even when "off duty" later in the HH he wore ceremonial plate and carried a sword and sidearm at all times. I am sure he is well aware of conservative elements who might wish him ill and will make sure they do not get a chance.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So the ONLY source of lore for you is the BRB?

No codexes and such are obviosly fine too.

Feel free to narrow your exposure to the background of 40k, but I think I should remind you, you are in the 40k BACKGROUND section - and Dark Imperium is canon background.
I'm not wrong in saying that Guilliman is Imperial Regent - ignore it if you want, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I regard studio fluff and BL fluff like two similar but still different versions of the same franchise. Like Marvel Comic Universe and Marvel Cinematic Universe. Same characters, some same stories, but they don't match 100%. And it is certainly interesting that not the BRB nor the Space Marine codex say anything about this Regent thing. Both have quite a bit stuff about Guilliman, so you'd imagine such an important thing would at least be mentioned.

I beg to differ, but I can't see what part I'm not getting (beyond disagreeing with your opinion).

It is just that we fundametally disagree about what makes 40K cool and waht it should be about.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So the ONLY source of lore for you is the BRB?

No codexes and such are obviosly fine too.

Would the Gathering Storm:Rise of the Primarch book be suitable?
In it, it describes Guilliman kicking out 5 High Lords of Terra and replacing them. No other High Lord has that power - only Guilliman.

Feel free to narrow your exposure to the background of 40k, but I think I should remind you, you are in the 40k BACKGROUND section - and Dark Imperium is canon background.
I'm not wrong in saying that Guilliman is Imperial Regent - ignore it if you want, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I regard studio fluff and BL fluff like two similar but still different versions of the same franchise. Like Marvel Comic Universe and Marvel Cinematic Universe. Same characters, some same stories, but they don't match 100%. And it is certainly interesting that not the BRB nor the Space Marine codex say anything about this Regent thing. Both have quite a bit stuff about Guilliman, so you'd imagine such an important thing would at least be mentioned.

I don't actually have the BRB or the current SM Codex (still working from my Index), but I think it's disengenuous to ignore the fact that Guilliman has outright been said in the main book describing the current state of 40k to be the Imperial Regent.

Hell, if we're ignoring anything that's NOT Codex or BRB, then it would logically stand that the Lord Commander of the Imperium WOULD be the single ruler (without any Black Library texts to show otherwise). I'd say that Lord Commander of the Imperium ALONE should say enough that he is the head of the Imperium right now.

However, I can't say I agree with your point - especially in the 40k BACKGROUND section. It's mentioned in a recent, fairly detailed book - I think it has good reason to be considered canon.

I beg to differ, but I can't see what part I'm not getting (beyond disagreeing with your opinion).

It is just that we fundametally disagree about what makes 40K cool and waht it should be about.

There's nothing inherently wrong about that.

Neither of us are wrong - just different opinions.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Would the Gathering Storm:Rise of the Primarch book be suitable?

Sure.

In it, it describes Guilliman kicking out 5 High Lords of Terra and replacing them. No other High Lord has that power - only Guilliman.

It doesn't necessarily mean he has legal power to do so, just that no one had balls to oppose him.

I don't actually have the BRB or the current SM Codex (still working from my Index), but I think it's disengenuous to ignore the fact that Guilliman has outright been said in the main book describing the current state of 40k to be the Imperial Regent.

See, this shows exactly why it is wise to consider the studio fluff and BL fluff as separate entities. You have read Dark Imperium novel and I haven't, I have read BRB and the Marine Codex and you haven't, and we have pretty different perception about what's going on. This is really common on thing on this forum and it is caused by BL team and studio team having somewhat different take on the fluff.

Hell, if we're ignoring anything that's NOT Codex or BRB, then it would logically stand that the Lord Commander of the Imperium WOULD be the single ruler (without any Black Library texts to show otherwise). I'd say that Lord Commander of the Imperium ALONE should say enough that he is the head of the Imperium right now.

It is military title. It has never denoted authority outside the military. It is the title of Imprerium's Chief of Defence.

However, I can't say I agree with your point - especially in the 40k BACKGROUND section. It's mentioned in a recent, fairly detailed book - I think it has good reason to be considered canon.

There really is not canon in 40K, just stories that may or may no be true.

There's nothing inherently wrong about that.

Neither of us are wrong - just different opinions.

Sure.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In it, it describes Guilliman kicking out 5 High Lords of Terra and replacing them. No other High Lord has that power - only Guilliman.

It doesn't necessarily mean he has legal power to do so, just that no one had balls to oppose him.

So you basically admit that he DOES have authority by right of power then? By being Lord Commander of the Imperium, we at least know he's on a higher tier than the others.

Plus, Imperial Regent would give him the legal power, but you're choosing to ignore that.

I don't actually have the BRB or the current SM Codex (still working from my Index), but I think it's disengenuous to ignore the fact that Guilliman has outright been said in the main book describing the current state of 40k to be the Imperial Regent.

See, this shows exactly why it is wise to consider the studio fluff and BL fluff as separate entities. You have read Dark Imperium novel and I haven't, I have read BRB and the Marine Codex and you haven't, and we have pretty different perception about what's going on. This is really common on thing on this forum and it is caused by BL team and studio team having somewhat different take on the fluff.

That's no different to someone reading about the Battle of Macragge in the Space Marine codex and not in the Tyranid codex, and someone else vice versa, or the Damocles Gulf in the SM codex vs the Tau codex.

It's not just between BL and the game books - it's between ANY book. Therefore, I see no reason why the BL saying Guilliman is Imperial Regent shouldn't be canon. After all, I have the Index here, and nowhere does it say Dante is the oldest non-Dreadnought Space Marine. I guess that now he isn't that any more, according to your logic.

Hell, if we're ignoring anything that's NOT Codex or BRB, then it would logically stand that the Lord Commander of the Imperium WOULD be the single ruler (without any Black Library texts to show otherwise). I'd say that Lord Commander of the Imperium ALONE should say enough that he is the head of the Imperium right now.

It is military title. It has never denoted authority outside the military. It is the title of Imprerium's Chief of Defence.

What I'm reading here says it's "both chairman of the High Lords and commander-in-chief of the Imperium's disparate military forces". So, military AND head High Lord. With one of the Imperium's biggest factors being it's military, and then essentially having control over the High Lords, how ISN'T Guilliman the strongest ruler? Especially since no-one took the position after Vangorich, after his control over the Imperium became too unstable.

Plus, you know, Imperial Regent.

However, I can't say I agree with your point - especially in the 40k BACKGROUND section. It's mentioned in a recent, fairly detailed book - I think it has good reason to be considered canon.

There really is not canon in 40K, just stories that may or may no be true.

Which really just destroys any chance of a lore discussion. No, canon exists - it's just some work is put in to make it generally fit together. For example, we KNOW that the Horus Heresy occurred. We KNOW that Guilliman came back from his stasis. We KNOW that Space Marines exist. Or is that all fake?

There is a canon, or else this board is worthless.

It's like this:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

So that's what the people who actually write this stuff thing. So if you don't like it, too bad.

In this specific case I certainly find it interesting the the Regent stuff is absent in all the studio fluff. It seems almost intentional, it is just too big thing to accidentally leave off.

 Crimson wrote:
It's like this:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

So that's what the people who actually write this stuff thing. So if you don't like it, too bad.

In this specific case I certainly find it interesting the the Regent stuff is absent in all the studio fluff. It seems almost intentional, it is just too big thing to accidentally leave off.

So you believe that there's NO canon at all? Or that there's no one thing that HAS to be present?

I disagree. There's no FIXED canon, as in there are as many interpretations as there are players, but there IS a canon. It's just a canon which disagrees with itself. If there were no canon, I could say anything, and be right and wrong simultaneously, making any discussion on the lore null and void.

I think it's not mentioned because "Lord Commander of the Imperium" is usually enough to show Guilliman's rule, but possibly also that Dark Imperium was written after the BRB. The Codex, I could chalk up to GW already having written it (especially given the rapid release of it), only tweaking the points costs or stats of units.

You can disagree, but then you're also disagreeing with people who write this stuff.

In any case, over the years I have come to the conclusion that the many studio writers probably do not read BL books, or if they do, they do not care about them. BL people can and do write pretty much anything they want, as long as they keep the big and obvious things straight (Ultramarines are blue, Orks are green.) BL books often contradict studio fluff and even each other. Studio seems to mostly ignore BL stuff.

Ultimately it is like trying to reconcile events of Miller's the Dark Knight Returns, with Burton's Batman Returns or Adam West Batman TV show. Sure, they are all about Batman, his real name is Bruce Wayne and he fights crime in a goofy costume with pointy bat ears, but attempting to pretend that it is all a part of some coherent whole is futile.

 Crimson wrote:
You can disagree, but then you're also disagreeing with people who write this stuff.

Who, as you say, disagree with enough too.
Plus, sure, these people write it, but they're not in charge: it's not an executive statement, no more so than a GW store manager's opinion.

In any case, over the years I have come to the conclusion that the many studio writers probably do not read BL books, or if they do, they do not care about them. BL people can and do write pretty much anything they want, as long as they keep the big and obvious things straight (Ultramarines are blue, Orks are green.) BL books often contradict studio fluff and even each other. Studio seems to mostly ignore BL stuff.

I think it's more the studio team wants to keep things as concise as possible in their books, and leave the more detailed stuff for the BL books.
Plus, the studio books ALSO contradict eachother too.

Ultimately it is like trying to reconcile events of Miller's the Dark Knight Returns, with Burton's Batman Returns or Adam West Batman TV show. Sure, they are all about Batman, his real name is Bruce Wayne and he fights crime in a goofy costume with pointy bat ears, but attempting to pretend that it is all a part of some coherent whole is futile.

The Lego Batman Movie did, funnily enough - but that's probably because Lego.

 Crimson wrote:
It's like this:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

So that's what the people who actually write this stuff thing. So if you don't like it, too bad.

In this specific case I certainly find it interesting the the Regent stuff is absent in all the studio fluff. It seems almost intentional, it is just too big thing to accidentally leave off.

To be fair they may have left it out simply because the studio stuff was done before they decided to make RG regent, so it may just be a matter of time but I guess we'll find out.

The problem with this approach is that I think you are taking it too literally of "if a book doesn't coincide with an expected world opinion then it can be safely ignored", which isn't necessarily true. Firstly I kinda disagree how Mr. Hoare uses the words "objective truth", because there are certain objective truths from the universe that form a framework. Certain things must be virtually objective otherwise the setting as a living universe ceases to exist. For example the Horus Heresy happened, there were 20 primarchs, etc. essential items and events in the universe MUST be objectively true because they are the bedrock for the world building. There comes a point where a story ceases to be 40k and becomes a different sci-fi setting, and that point will invariably use certain markers that makes it required to have certain objective truths. I personally would use subjective truth in regards to the stories, and that is what Mr. Thorpe and Mr. Dembski-Bowden I think are getting at, it's not that each story isn't canon, it's just that when seeing the universe from a single pair of eyes or a few in a single book is never the entire story, and possibly even a misinterpreted one (hence the "lens" and "none of these interpretations are wrong" bits). A story may be wrong, but in a literal sense it's the canon representation of what that person sees and perceives in the 40k universe. Is it accurate? Maybe, maybe not, but you can extrapolate certain things and verify events if you see them happen in real time in front the eyes of the character, assuming they're sane XD. This really gets to the "everything is canon, but not everything is true" heart of 40k which makes it so wonderful, it's really more emulative of the real world when we get several vastly different takes on the same object, we can assume x object exists but we can't come to a decision on what it truly is unless we see it first hand, but even then we as an audience may also disagree. Basically, see the The Master of Mankind for possibly the best example of this idea put into book form.

 Crimson wrote:
But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.

Except, of course, he'll murder them for disagreeing with him, because he's a tinpot dictator-- as he already demonstrated by his murder of numerous High Lords. If GW was interested in writing a believable story, they'd have them work against him to discredit and endanger him, because that's how people in power threatened by a newcomer actually behave.

 Melissia wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But isn't he technically 'just' one of the High Lords? At least in theory the other High Lords have authority to overrule him.

Except, of course, he'll murder them for disagreeing with him, because he's a tinpot dictator-- as he already demonstrated by his murder of numerous High Lords. If GW was interested in writing a believable story, they'd have them work against him to discredit and endanger him, because that's how people in power threatened by a newcomer actually behave.

I've not finished the book yet, but in The Emperor's Legion a number of the High Lords were plotting against him when he first arrived. The Chancellor is quietly opposed to the conspirators, for now, and the Captain-General of the Custodes stands with Guilliman. I'm sure by the end of the book those members of the High Lords who conspire against Guilliman and those that conspire to control the Custodes will be killed.

You see to the Imperium Guilliman himself is akin to a God. Some think his time has past and the Imperium is theirs, and other Lords welcome Guilliman to take responsibility.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You see to the Imperium Guilliman himself is akin to a God.

Nah, seen no evidence of this. To have someone suddenly show up and everyone loves them and obeys them completely would literally take an uprooting of every single theme upon and around which 40k is built, as well as a rewriting of the personalities of numerous people and organizations within the Imperium. And there's no evidence GW has done or intends to do this.

 Melissia wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You see to the Imperium Guilliman himself is akin to a God.

Nah, seen no evidence of this. To have someone suddenly show up and everyone loves them and obeys them completely would literally take an uprooting of every single theme upon and around which 40k is built, as well as a rewriting of the personalities of numerous people and organizations within the Imperium. And there's no evidence GW has done or intends to do this.

Its literally in the book I mentioned in the same post. Guilliman is seen with reverence and awe by many. And the man who should take the reigns. Some dont share the opinion and believe that his time, and the time of all Primarchs is over.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Its literally in the book I mentioned in the same post. Guilliman is seen with reverence and awe by many.

That's not what you just said.

To give a real world example; Steve Jobs was seen with reverence and held the awe of many people, and they believed he should take the reigns and lead the tech industry to the future. He was not, however, akin to a god, and he had very strong opposition including within his own company. The two are not the same.

 Melissia wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Its literally in the book I mentioned in the same post. Guilliman is seen with reverence and awe by many.

That's not what you just said.

So I guess you've missed all the descriptions of him as a Demigod, reveared by all. A Demigod is akin to a god.

akin - of similar character, related by blood

So I'd say seen with reverence and awe, is exactly what I said, in different words.