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Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 19:50:29


Post by: Niiru


And so here it is, the new thread for the new Codex: Craftworlds release. I started this thread a little early, but it seemed about time to do so as all of our discussions the last few days have been about the things we already know in the new Codex anyway. The Index is now dead... except perhaps for Autarchs, though I'm sure that will continue to be discussed here for a long time to come (or until an FAQ is made!)

I'll also be updating this original post whenever I update the website Tactica with new information, or any new odds and sods I find that might be useful to my pointy-eared brethren. For now, the summaries for the HQ and Troops sections have been drafted and uploaded, along with a few loadout entries. I have also had a lovely volunteer Dawnstrider working on some of the other entries for me, so watch this space (or that space) for those.

If there's anything you'd like to see on the site to make life easier, let me know. And if anyone comes up with a useful strategy or piece of information that would be good for us to keep in the Tactica instead of lost on the forum, let me know that too.

And remember everyone:

Blood runs,
Anger wakes,
Death rises,
War calls!


And just because I've been asked what the link was, and I'm not sure if my Sig is showing up properly, he's the link to the website tactica:

TheWebway.org

huh, wierdly I can't get Dakka to format it as a clickable link...



++++Tactica Update+++

As always, these things got more complicated than expected. I solved the problem, but it's now very very late so I can't finish the job. So half the site is going to be offline for 24 hours. Apologies.

+++++++++++++++++++


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 20:12:17


Post by: mmimzie


Supporting the new thread with some tactics:

So warlord traits and artifacts. What looks good??

I like the idea of a suto seer council.

Biel-tan Supreme command
Farseer
2xwarlock skyrunner/Spiritseer


Give one warlock warlord/spiritseers reroll once per round, and the other one the spirit stone relic, and all 3 of your caster get 1 reroll a turn. The relic and warlord trait are like having 2 additional CP per turn for you warlocks (more or less, not quite as strong as a CP can be, but some times a full rerolling is better so it's a wash).

If all 3 are sky runners than it's basicly like bringing a wind rider squad as well, and biel-tan will give them reroll 1's for thier shurikan catapults. It might even be worth it to take the sining spear which ithink is a cost effective upgrade. i have math hammer all them yet. Edit: Math i think backs them up for hunting for a few wounds off the top of any high toughness models Chimera/Rhinos/Land raiders/knights and good for sniping low armor save models like guard. No good against relatively low T with decent armor like marines or terminators.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 20:14:09


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


What are people thinking for Alaitoc - specifically number and approach to Shadow Specters?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 20:15:07


Post by: Sarigar


After a few games this weekend, I will be able to post an after action review on my Wraith heavy army.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 20:54:08


Post by: Niiru


 Sarigar wrote:
After a few games this weekend, I will be able to post an after action review on my Wraith heavy army.


Nice! Will be interested to hear how it goes.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/27 23:40:15


Post by: Fafnir


I'm probably sounding like a broken record at this point from the last thread, but with less bloat from the old thread, I'm wondering what might work well as a solid core to build around an Avatar.

Right now, I see him having some severe mobility issues, what with being unable to be dropped in via stratagem or vehicle. Moreover, a lot of the faction traits (lol Biel Tan) don't tend to play well with his own buffs. It means that you end up paying a large amount of points for a unit that I'd be left to think requires a fair bit of care in developing an entourage for, and I'm looking for as much insight as possible for making this big flaming lug work.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 00:36:42


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Sarigar wrote:
After a few games this weekend, I will be able to post an after action review on my Wraith heavy army.


Looking forward to it. You doing CWE or mixing in Ynnari?

Post your lists man!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 00:59:41


Post by: kryczek


Nice one, subd.

Long time Eldar player here looking forward to hearing what everyone is saying about the codex. I've got my own Iyanden/wraith army and I'm looking forward to getting it used.

Cheer's


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 01:14:31


Post by: Niiru


 Fafnir wrote:
I'm probably sounding like a broken record at this point from the last thread, but with less bloat from the old thread, I'm wondering what might work well as a solid core to build around an Avatar.

Right now, I see him having some severe mobility issues, what with being unable to be dropped in via stratagem or vehicle. Moreover, a lot of the faction traits (lol Biel Tan) don't tend to play well with his own buffs. It means that you end up paying a large amount of points for a unit that I'd be left to think requires a fair bit of care in developing an entourage for, and I'm looking for as much insight as possible for making this big flaming lug work.


I actually think the Avatar can would plugged into a lot of lists. He doesn't specifically need much of an entourage, as he is immune to long-range attacks anyway from being a Character, so you just need to make sure you have -something- closer to the enemy than the Avatar is. A small squad of guardians in a circle around his feet can do the job of meatshield while he walks across the board.

So you could pretty much just keep it barebones like that, and have him be a huge distraction carnifex that requires the enemy to get in close to deal with... and that's exactly what the Avatar wants!

Just make sure he has a cheap meatshield around him, and I think he'll do pretty well. They are immune to morale too remember, so they should last a turn or two.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 01:22:58


Post by: Cream Tea


The codex has substantial cost reductions for many units, and gives you several options not available before such as deep strike stratagems, more psychic powers and warlord traits, and five different craftworld traits.

If you're playing Ynnari, it's not as big of a deal as if you're playing pure craftworlds, but you still get some nice price cuts and the potential to bring a craftworld detachment or two in your Ynnari army for extra versatility and power.

I think the codex does a lot of things right, and makes many Eldar units much more playable than before. The few nerfs there are in there are offset by buffs to those same units, such as the Hemlock being unable to cast half of the Runes of Battle powers, but being cheaper and having stronger shots.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 01:32:45


Post by: Dawnstrider


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
What are people thinking for Alaitoc - specifically number and approach to Shadow Specters?


For myself, I am looking at two scenarios given my 15 spectres and three exarchs. If I use 3 units of 5 it is for general purpose work and probably one unit hanging back to protect the dark reapers from those pesky assault marines. Otherwise a unit of 10 and a unit of 5 will be to use as a small alpha strike. If places 18" out they will be in range of guide from the farseer, outside the Altioc bubble range, and I"ll be more than happy to use [Lightning fast Reaction] on them for a -3 to hit. Next turn, move, possibly advance and hose down a few more units followed by [Fire and Fade].


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 01:52:59


Post by: Wyldcarde


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
What are people thinking for Alaitoc - specifically number and approach to Shadow Specters?


At least a unit of 10. Makes most use of new conceal being targetable.
And also can deep strike them if need be.

Depends on the rest of the army tho. At -2 with alaitoc they are hard to deal with anyway, adding conceal makes them even harder obviously.
But if you are going a brigade, you’d want to run them as 3x3 or 4 man units to fill up slots.
It’s always a trade off.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 02:59:01


Post by: Magc8Ball


I think that the Quicken power makes a number of units immediately functional, specifically Striking Scorpions. If you can get that power off onto them, it's practically a guaranteed charge right after they come onto the board. It has a similar effect on units disembarking from a transport. The only catch is that it has a TN of 7, which can be a little sketchy for a Warlock with no gear to help get there.

On another topic, I do really like the points reduction. The bike-heavy list I'd played at a 2K event was able to either fit a third Crimson Hunter or a third Wave Serpent (while also upgrading two 5-man Avenger squads to 10 each).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 03:16:42


Post by: Niiru


As an update to the Tactica, with a lot of help from Dawnstrider we now have some basic summaries for all the HQ, Troops and Elites units. So progress has been made!

I have also added in the first of many FAQ's - The often seen favourite of "Can I use Ynnari in a Craftworld army". I think I've answered it right :p and hopefully clearly too. We shall see!



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 03:51:58


Post by: Khaine


 Magc8Ball wrote:
I think that the Quicken power makes a number of units immediately functional, specifically Striking Scorpions. If you can get that power off onto them, it's practically a guaranteed charge right after they come onto the board. It has a similar effect on units disembarking from a transport. The only catch is that it has a TN of 7, which can be a little sketchy for a Warlock with no gear to help get there.
This is why I quite like the Biel-Tan spirit stone relic - throw it on a Spiritseer/Warlock with Quicken, rather than your Farseer. Your Farseer can manage without it thanks to her inbuilt re-rolls.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 04:44:16


Post by: FarseerBrah


 Khaine wrote:
 Magc8Ball wrote:
I think that the Quicken power makes a number of units immediately functional, specifically Striking Scorpions. If you can get that power off onto them, it's practically a guaranteed charge right after they come onto the board. It has a similar effect on units disembarking from a transport. The only catch is that it has a TN of 7, which can be a little sketchy for a Warlock with no gear to help get there.
This is why I quite like the Biel-Tan spirit stone relic - throw it on a Spiritseer/Warlock with Quicken, rather than your Farseer. Your Farseer can manage without it thanks to her inbuilt re-rolls.


You beauty, I just double checked my codex, I thought the relic had to be on the warlord. You are correct, the spirit stone on a warlock makes them a bit more reliable. I'm thinking along the same lines, with using quicken to get in a charge. Or use it to bring some out flanking war walkers(or whoever) within 3" of the warlord, to gain a second guide from the Biel Tan warlord trait.

Overall, the codex looks pretty good, just got to find the nice combos. Vypers with dual cannons are reasonably cheap, war walkers are a bit cheaper. HQ's seem good, troops are usable. Warp Spiders are cheaper and can DS, so I;m very happy.

I made a quick list if anyone cares to offer advice
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/743173.page#9670458
Thanks. looking forward to reading the thread as things progress..


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 05:19:18


Post by: bullyboy


One thing I like about the new book is that it seems to be best played with synergies between different units, strategems, psychic powers and attributes. It's not a case of take this unit and spam it......keep in bubble of this guy, and roll dice.
It's more about maneuver, the right use of strategems to maximize the effect you are trying to achieve. Feels like Eldar to me.....subtle, but powerful.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 09:02:04


Post by: mmimzie


 Fafnir wrote:
I'm probably sounding like a broken record at this point from the last thread, but with less bloat from the old thread, I'm wondering what might work well as a solid core to build around an Avatar.

Right now, I see him having some severe mobility issues, what with being unable to be dropped in via stratagem or vehicle. Moreover, a lot of the faction traits (lol Biel Tan) don't tend to play well with his own buffs. It means that you end up paying a large amount of points for a unit that I'd be left to think requires a fair bit of care in developing an entourage for, and I'm looking for as much insight as possible for making this big flaming lug work.


the avatar is actually in a pretty good spot. he can do a great job toboost a unit up the table for a turn one charge:

10 scorpions
1 avatar
biel tan detachment
2cp

you deploy your avatar against your intended target with some small degree of freedom of where that actually is. you advance the avatar. then you drop your scorpions with a small chain of probably no more than 5 scorpions and as little as no chain at all to get into range of the avatar you use the young king strategem and you have a nice turn 1 charge. From thier the avatar xan go about his day.

One low point with the avatar is that he really is only worth throwing at vehicles or big bad. units that are really tough tl get your hands on even more so if you're goingn7" a turn at the enemy unit of choice.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 09:21:47


Post by: BlaxicanX


Give it to me straight, fellas. Are banshees and scorpions still garbage?

My issue with them for the past couple of years hasn't been an inability to get them into combat, rather it's that they tend to hit like a wet noodle once they get there.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 10:56:38


Post by: Amishprn86


Banshees can move across the board as good as, if not better than Harlequins, they are a great supporting melee unit, and if you give them use of CP's they can gain a +1 to wound making them actually dangerous, when they have Power weapons and can wound up to T5 on 4+ or T3 on 3+ its not bad.

They WILL get into combat now for sure, if that is what you are worried about, and Avatar actually makes them faster and better also.

I wouldnt say they are high end competitive, but are for sure a lot better.

IDK about Scorpions sorry.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 11:53:51


Post by: bullyboy


In addition to the above, having Doom on their intended target will work wonders.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 11:55:03


Post by: Drake003


Would like to point out that you really want 1 warlock on your army.

It has been said in the previous thread that they aren't worth it and that Spirit Seers are always strictly better.

However, with the new Seer Council stratagem, you really need 1 warlock with your most important warlock power so you can use the stratagem and get off that important power. The stratagem doesn't with with Spirit Seers, hence the need for the Warlock.

For me it will be a Warlock with Quicken as both halves of that power I want to be able to reliably cast, Quicken being the most important of all the powers to me.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 12:08:00


Post by: Shadenuat


Ynnari Banshees are supersonic maidens of death. And Executioner is now what, 50% cheaper?

Scorpions cost less than assault marines now. I think since you won't lose many points if they die now, it's possible to use them in their actual role to try and tie up something shooty in melee for a turn. Although in some ways I think they returned to a power claw delivery system they were in previous editions, so it's better to pack them into a WS in minimal squads of 5.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 13:04:48


Post by: bullyboy


Will pick up book today, but what my current force has and what I plan to add to boost CPs (was running Vanguard before)

Farseer
Yriel or aurtach
2 units rangers
Guardians or Dire Avengers

Spiritseer
wraithguard (webway)
wraithscythes in serpent
wraithaxes on foot
wraithlord, BL, AML
wraithlord, sword, shuricannon, flamers
Bonesinger
Hemlock

3 warlocks or spiritseers

Not sure on points....also have extra serpent lying around. Will be running Iyanden. Bonesinger topping up wounds on WLs, farseer casting fortune on wraithblades. Like the wraithguard coming in from webway.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 13:21:28


Post by: Lord Perversor


Adding a quick snippet, for those testing the codex soon (will do myself this sunday)

Fortune it's being rewritten to *overwrite* a current saving throw against mortals like the Avatar one or the Ulthwe trait bonus.

So we can use Fortune on Ulthwe units unlike with the index description.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 14:34:44


Post by: sadhvikv


With the Hemlock, as the spirit stone rules are written in the ability section rather than a vehicle upgrade or weaponry, is this included in the base cost of the hemlock? I.e. Does it cost 200 or 210 points. I'm going with 200 currently.

Also what is everyone's thoughts on hemlocks vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs, I'm planning on running 2 hemlocks and 1 Crimson hunter, but not sure if 3 hemlocks would be better?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 14:48:37


Post by: Wyldcarde


I played a game today with a hemlock, crimson hunter and Phoenix vs 2 hemlocks. The hemlocks are still so reliable. The hunter and Phoenix just don’t seem as much as a threat. Against any target they are at best hitting on 3s, then when the negative modifiers add on and the wounds drop off and it degrades the gap widens. But, it is 40 points cheaper in an army that can do a lot with 40 points.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 14:57:35


Post by: mmimzie


I think scorpions edge out banshees in any situation other than vehicles. Also if say scorpions are weak to being screened, but I'd argue the scorpions are kind of designed to kill most screening units.

So against anything infantry the scorpions will almost always get more value. This is due to mandiblasters, the plus one to hit, and the search going ham with his scope claw. The +1 also boosting your pistol is also another nice edge of thier banshee sisters. Also the turn one charge potential with native deep strike and young king is really good.

Banshee can also young king turn one deep strike, but they require another cp for webway portal. The banshee excel at killing high armor stuff like vehicles, but are out shined in ever way by shining spears in that reguard. Terminators and tyrants warriors are also better taken down by shining spears.

The best thing about the banshee is they ignore over watch is which is, undeniably, q good feature. Even more so if your going for a melee centric force.

sadhvikv wrote:
With the Hemlock, as the spirit stone rules are written in the ability section rather than a vehicle upgrade or weaponry, is this included in the base cost of the hemlock? I.e. Does it cost 200 or 210 points. I'm going with 200 currently.

Also what is everyone's thoughts on hemlocks vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs, I'm planning on running 2 hemlocks and 1 Crimson hunter, but not sure if 3 hemlocks would be better?


Yes


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 15:14:08


Post by: Niiru


sadhvikv wrote:
With the Hemlock, as the spirit stone rules are written in the ability section rather than a vehicle upgrade or weaponry, is this included in the base cost of the hemlock? I.e. Does it cost 200 or 210 points. I'm going with 200 currently.

Also what is everyone's thoughts on hemlocks vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs, I'm planning on running 2 hemlocks and 1 Crimson hunter, but not sure if 3 hemlocks would be better?



RAW, you only pay for wargear, not abilities.

There was an option in a different army codex (someones combat shield I think) that was listed as an ability but not in wargear, and GW FAQ'd it to say that actually you should be paying for the shield. This was never done for the Hemlock though, and until it is you get the stones for free.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 15:31:36


Post by: Raulengrin


I saw it floating around that Phoenix Lords couldn't have warlord traits. Unless I'm missing something, that was a misinterpretation of the rules. The rules states: "If the Warlord of your army is a Craftworlds CHARACTER. . ." then they can take one of the non-craftworld specific traits. While phoneix lords do not have a craftworld, this rule doesn't say anything about having to belong to a certain craftworld, just be from the craftworlds codex. Which the phoenix lords are.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 15:45:35


Post by: Dawnstrider


Look under the "Named Characters and Warlord Traits" rule. "...if a Phoenix Lord is your warlord, they can never have a warlord trait."


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 16:53:09


Post by: Raulengrin


Dawnstrider wrote:
Look under the "Named Characters and Warlord Traits" rule. "...if a Phoenix Lord is your warlord, they can never have a warlord trait."


Aha, thanks for pointing that out.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 18:11:44


Post by: Mandragola


I’ve been looking at a brigade. It’s actually pretty viable I think. There are a lot of cheap units around like dire avengers, Rangers and warlocks, which do an actual job rather than just being a CP tax.

Overall I really like what I see in this book. It’s making me want to use my eldar properly for the first time since 3rd (ignoring for now acting as the supporting caste in a 6e taudar army).

A cou0ke of the new start collecting boxes would go a long way towards a good army I think. 10 wraithguard popping out of the warp will probably be quite bad news for people - though the flamer ones seem a bit less awesome.

Must say I’ve always quite liked the idea of a scorpion. An alaitoc one would be rude. “Place target model in opponent’s figure case”. I’m not a fan of forgeworld rules but that’s a very nice model indeed.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 18:20:39


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, the codex looks actually quite good.
In a perfect world, it would actually be top tier.
But with the rule set at hand. This may not be the case.
''See, here my tank tracks can see your tank tracks. As my Leman Russ hasnt move too far, it can shoot you twice.''
In former editions, movement was crucial. But today, you can win a game without essential movement.
Eldar always benefitted from movement. Movement was the Eldar's armour. What a pity.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 18:29:02


Post by: Mandragola


I think Eldar have a better chance than anyone against IG tanks. The important thing will be charging them, with anything. Charge tanks with howling banshees, vypers (take squadrons of 3), use quicken on something else. Use swooping hawks if you have to. Just tie up as many of them as you can. Mow down the conscripts with spammed shurikens.

Going second will still be awful of course. But I think Eldar have a really good chance against any gunline list if they go first. There’s just too much speed.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 18:37:36


Post by: Shadenuat


Our Prisms gained same trait + stratagem. GW might be going for this design for underperforming one-shot wonders to make them actually contribute to combat. Tau Hammerheads would probably gain same rule, since they are so terrible now compared to any imperial or eldar tank.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 19:09:49


Post by: Korlandril


So with Alaitoc attribute, various wargear pieces, relics and unit abilities giving -1 to hit. Are there any counters out there that can negate this benefits or provide +1 to the shooting of their own units?

Alaitoc attribute with Flyers, Vectored Engined vehicles and Pathfinders can easily get -2 to hit.

Conceal can obviously add to this but is not guaranteed to go off every turn and you can only target so many units with it.

Craftworld counters would be Dark Reapers who always hit on 3+.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 19:17:54


Post by: Wyldcarde


Eldar are probably one of the better armies for dealing with this.
Dark reapers, dscythe wraithguard and hemlocks all mess up any target with their auto hit and 3+ always hit on the reapers.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 19:37:01


Post by: admironheart


Niiru wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
With the Hemlock, as the spirit stone rules are written in the ability section rather than a vehicle upgrade or weaponry, is this included in the base cost of the hemlock? I.e. Does it cost 200 or 210 points. I'm going with 200 currently.

Also what is everyone's thoughts on hemlocks vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs, I'm planning on running 2 hemlocks and 1 Crimson hunter, but not sure if 3 hemlocks would be better?



RAW, you only pay for wargear, not abilities.

There was an option in a different army codex (someones combat shield I think) that was listed as an ability but not in wargear, and GW FAQ'd it to say that actually you should be paying for the shield. This was never done for the Hemlock though, and until it is you get the stones for free.


what about the Autarch forceshield?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 20:24:43


Post by: Lord Perversor


 admironheart wrote:
Niiru wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
With the Hemlock, as the spirit stone rules are written in the ability section rather than a vehicle upgrade or weaponry, is this included in the base cost of the hemlock? I.e. Does it cost 200 or 210 points. I'm going with 200 currently.

Also what is everyone's thoughts on hemlocks vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs, I'm planning on running 2 hemlocks and 1 Crimson hunter, but not sure if 3 hemlocks would be better?



RAW, you only pay for wargear, not abilities.

There was an option in a different army codex (someones combat shield I think) that was listed as an ability but not in wargear, and GW FAQ'd it to say that actually you should be paying for the shield. This was never done for the Hemlock though, and until it is you get the stones for free.


what about the Autarch forceshield?

Falls in the same category.

The GW FAQ was just an asnwer to a general question that was missunderstood and unspecific .
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the points values section) must be paid for in the same way as a model’s weapons.

To add more salt other language FAQ's ignore this answer and in fact tell you add Combat shield on the dataslate for Company Champion and on Bike, wargear text.


On an unrelated note after reading some of the stratagems i'm stocked now Psykers can be totally gamechanging with proper use of CP, Seer council and Runes of Witnessing Stratagems can make a real difference with a proper management make me wish to field Brigade Detachment all the time.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 20:58:30


Post by: DaemonColin


Subbed. Looking to get into playing eldar properly now that they seem to have been toned down a bit, looking more at the ynnari or corsairs route, but will lurk this thread to get some ideas


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:07:41


Post by: Niiru


Putting out a request for the Tactica - Anyone out there own or made use of a Lynx or a Warp Hunter in 8th edition? I've never really looked into these units, and so I hesitate to try and write a summary for them for the tactica page. Any volunteers?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:16:12


Post by: Colgado


Here is a strategy I've been thinking over since I got the codex. A unit of Alaitoc wraithguard (5 or 10) dropping in via webway assault with a spiritseer with the Alaitoc relic (-1 to be hit and deepstrike). They drop in at 12 inches from a target, the spiritseer casts conceal on them (take the 1 reroll a turn trait for the psychic test), they then Fire and Fade to be beyond 12 inches from the enemy. Obviously positioning will be crucial here but you now have two -2 to hit units in the backfield, and the guard are tough as is. The relic frees up 2 CP from webway so this isn't as CP heavy as some of the other drop strats.

You can also use this with Scythe guard and quicken for the same effect, also scorpions/wraithblades/banshees. Basically the Alaitoc relic + webway assault = success.

Thoughts or other set-ups / compositions?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:16:37


Post by: Amishprn86


Niiru wrote:
Putting out a request for the Tactica - Anyone out there own or made use of a Lynx or a Warp Hunter in 8th edition? I've never really looked into these units, and so I hesitate to try and write a summary for them for the tactica page. Any volunteers?


B.c of the new Fire Prism and CWE codex changes the Warp Hunter isnt worth it in any way, it wasnt really worth it before Edlar got their codex and it really isnt. Its about 100pts over costed, (im not joking) its something like 250pts after the other gun and the 5pt upgrade you want. If it was around 150pts it would be worth it, its a random number of shots thats the Problem, if it was ALWAYS 3 shots then sure 200pts would be fine.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:27:53


Post by: Joey86


Can someone with an English Codex say me if Path of War gives Obsec to every unit?

My German Codex misses the wording for Troop Choices. Its every Unit in an Battleforged Craftworlds detachment.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:32:47


Post by: ryzouken


Joey86 wrote:
Can someone with an English Codex say me if Path of War gives Obsec to every unit?

My German Codex misses the wording for Troop Choices. Its every Unit in an Battleforged Craftworlds detachment.

"... all Troops units in Craftworlds Detachments..." in the English


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:34:12


Post by: Niiru


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Putting out a request for the Tactica - Anyone out there own or made use of a Lynx or a Warp Hunter in 8th edition? I've never really looked into these units, and so I hesitate to try and write a summary for them for the tactica page. Any volunteers?


B.c of the new Fire Prism and CWE codex changes the Warp Hunter isnt worth it in any way, it wasnt really worth it before Edlar got their codex and it really isnt. Its about 100pts over costed, (im not joking) its something like 250pts after the other gun and the 5pt upgrade you want. If it was around 150pts it would be worth it, its a random number of shots thats the Problem, if it was ALWAYS 3 shots then sure 200pts would be fine.



Thanks, makes sense. It agrees with a couple other things I read when I looked into it, and that was pre-codex. The fire prism just seems better across the board now. Especially as you can get two prisms for 50 points more than 1 warp hunter.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:40:41


Post by: Drake003


Query, with the new stratagem "Starhawk Missile". Is this Missile in addition to the regular shot from the Aeldari Missile Launcher, or does it replace the shot? Be a shame if it is instead of considering the Missile Launcher does do D6 damage.

I'm thinking Reaper Exarch or Two with AML just to open up option to use this Stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second question on Fire and Fade Stratagem.

It just say a friendly Aeldari unit can move 7" after shooting as if it were the movement phase. That means it can target a Hemlock!! Does that also mean it can still do its wings of Khaine pivots as well?!!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:49:58


Post by: Lord Perversor


Drake003 wrote:
Query, with the new stratagem "Starhawk Missile". Is this Missile in addition to the regular shot from the Aeldari Missile Launcher, or does it replace the shot? Be a shame if it is instead of considering the Missile Launcher does do D6 damage.

I'm thinking Reaper Exarch or Two with AML just to open up option to use this Stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second question on Fire and Fade Stratagem.

It just say a friendly Aeldari unit can move 7" after shooting as if it were the movement phase. That means it can target a Hemlock!! Does that also mean it can still do its wings of Khaine pivots as well?!!


It seems to substitute the normal firing mode with this special one (kind of hunter killer missile? ) Seems kind of situational, only worthwhile if you need to take down a 1-2 wounds left to a unit with Fly , either to finish down a flyer or to get sure it degrades.


About the Hemlock, well seems it should be able to access to the extra pivots, allowing a nifty 360 turn in a single turn, but i may think it could be FAQ'd soon. (aside the fact i rarely see the need to turn him further due the way targetting and how far they can move on this edition)


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:55:17


Post by: ryzouken


Drake003 wrote:
Query, with the new stratagem "Starhawk Missile". Is this Missile in addition to the regular shot from the Aeldari Missile Launcher, or does it replace the shot? Be a shame if it is instead of considering the Missile Launcher does do D6 damage.

I'm thinking Reaper Exarch or Two with AML just to open up option to use this Stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second question on Fire and Fade Stratagem.

It just say a friendly Aeldari unit can move 7" after shooting as if it were the movement phase. That means it can target a Hemlock!! Does that also mean it can still do its wings of Khaine pivots as well?!!

I see no text that indicates the mortal wounds are done instead of normal damage. It would appear that the hit still causes normal damage, this may be an FAQ candidate.

It would appear that a Hemlock is a legal target for the stratagem. In which case, its movement would be restricted by the Wings of Khaine rules as the movement is done as though it were the movement phase. Note that due to the stratagem, it does not move the 20" minimum distance, only the 7" indicated. Another possible FAQ candidate. EDIT: BRB contradiction. Runes unclear. Proceed at own risk. Expect FAQ.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 21:59:43


Post by: Lord Perversor


The only downside to Fire and Fade Stratagem to a Flyer unit is that by rules it should move 20" minimum or count as destroyed.

So i guess it's a high contender to appear in a new FAQ


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 22:03:00


Post by: ryzouken


Lord Perversor wrote:
The only downside to Fire and Fade Stratagem to a Flyer unit is that by rules it should move 20" minimum or count as destroyed.

So i guess it's a high contender to appear in a new FAQ

Hmmm this appears in the BRB, so I missed it on initial pass.
Amending my prior statement pertaining to the Fire and Fade + Flyers: Runes unclear. Proceed at own risk. Expect FAQ.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 22:53:15


Post by: Fafnir


So... Could you run a mixed Craftworld/Ynnari list, fly by with a hemlock, and then use fire and fade to intentionally crash it to soulburst a unit for a hella janky alpha strike?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 23:00:43


Post by: Korlandril


 Fafnir wrote:
So... Could you run a mixed Craftworld/Ynnari list, fly by with a hemlock, and then use fire and fade to intentionally crash it to soulburst a unit for a hella janky alpha strike?


I think Ynnari should have their own tactica thread, this should be reserved for Craftworlds only


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 23:28:31


Post by: Niiru


 Korlandril wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
So... Could you run a mixed Craftworld/Ynnari list, fly by with a hemlock, and then use fire and fade to intentionally crash it to soulburst a unit for a hella janky alpha strike?


I think Ynnari should have their own tactica thread, this should be reserved for Craftworlds only



I see what you're saying, but right now Ynnari can only be played by using Craftworlds units, so having two separate threads seems like there would be a lot of repeated information.

As far as the question goes, RAW the answer is yes, but it's a really stupid thing to do. Hopefully GW will put out an FAQ soon about it. I won't be writing that one down in the tactica thats for sure, it's janky and cheesy and weird. And a terrible use for a hemlock.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/28 23:58:07


Post by: pm713


Why can't you play Ynnari with Dark Eldar or Harlequins?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 00:17:19


Post by: ryzouken


pm713 wrote:
Why can't you play Ynnari with Dark Eldar or Harlequins?

No reason, which is why Ynnari might want its own thread.

<topic change> Thinking about combining the Shiftshroud of Alanssar with a quicken/restrain spiritseer and webway striking a unit of 10 wraithblades. Could be... disgusting...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 00:19:15


Post by: Niiru


pm713 wrote:
Why can't you play Ynnari with Dark Eldar or Harlequins?


Oh, you can, I just mean that right now Craftworlds probably have the strongest options, particularly with the new codex release. I suspect it will be very rare to find a Ynnari army that fields zero Craftworld units. Though I do look forward to the Harlequin release, as I expect to use those occasionally in my Craftworld lists (with or without Ynnari options, don't know yet).



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 00:46:28


Post by: Amishprn86


Niiru wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why can't you play Ynnari with Dark Eldar or Harlequins?


Oh, you can, I just mean that right now Craftworlds probably have the strongest options, particularly with the new codex release. I suspect it will be very rare to find a Ynnari army that fields zero Craftworld units. Though I do look forward to the Harlequin release, as I expect to use those occasionally in my Craftworld lists (with or without Ynnari options, don't know yet).



Harlequins are just as strong if not stronger still. 20-25 Melta guns that can shoot 2x on a good melee unit that can ignore terrain/models for movement and still move 2x due to shadowseers are pretty good.

I agree, we need a Ynnari topic, especially now that CWE codex is out.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 01:02:24


Post by: Wyldcarde


There is a ynarri topic floating around. But it kind of said everything to be said really.
The new crsftworlds at least opens up some new discussion tho.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 01:35:26


Post by: chosen_of_khaine


Played a few 2000 point games with the new Codex running Ulthwe (my personal favorite), won both games rather handily. Here's my list and thoughts on each unit I brought:

Battalion
Autarch (Warlord, w/ Faolchu's Wing and Fate's Messenger trait) - Never got into combat, but between re-rolling 1s and netting me 3-4 CPs between refunds and the trait, I felt he more than made his points back.
Eldrad - I always ran him anyway, and with Doom, Guide, and Executioner, I can't complain. Shout out to the "Forewarning" stratagem, keeping him near the Dark Reapers was nasty.

2x5 Dire Avengers - Did their job bubble wrapping and killing a few light infantry, but thankfully now at a much more reasonable points cost.
5 Rangers - Even with the *massive* points reduction, I'm still not sure about these guys, but maybe that's because I just was rolling horribly with them...

Wraithguard, D-Scythes - Amazing, as always, and being T6 made a difference a few times.
Wave Serpent w/ 2BL, SC, CTM - Just as good as before, and the ability to spend 1 CP to discharge the shield again is ridiculously good. I didn't do this, but I can imagine it being a good idea to discharge turn 1 just so you can use the stratagem every turn following.

2 Fire Prisms - Holy moly are these guys amazing now with the Pulsed Laser Discharge + Linked Fire stratagem. Deleted anything I had them shoot at, and I'm glad to finally be fielding one of my favorite units again without feeling like I'm neutering my list.
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Launcher - Amazing, like before, and I really can't believe they lowered the cost of these guys.

Hemlock Wraithfighter - Also can't believe this got cheaper, and the S12 made a difference more than once. Not being able to conceal itself hurt, but flying around and casting Jinx on units with powerful invuln saves was a godsend.

Outrider Detachment
Warlock Skyrunner - I really only ran the bike because I haven't painted my foot-lock, and really didn't do a whole lot besides concealing units that ended up not getting shot at.

5 Warp Spiders - Thank Khaine these guys can deep strike again, and though I still don't think they're anything to write home about, the points reduction makes me feel less guilty running them.
5 Swooping Hawks - Assault 4 vs Rapid Fire 2 is huge, as they don't have to leave themselves open to an easy charge in order to shoot at max potential. Wasn't unhappy with them.
2x3 Windriders - Solid objective grabbers, and the points reduction helps (obviously). Really all the fast attack units I brought did fine, but nothing spectacular.

Wraithlord w/ 2 flamers, 2SC, ghost glaive - Even with T8 and 4 attacks I have a hard time justifying bringing this. They're probably best completely bare-bones, but I love that sword.

For the record, this list would have been about 2300 points pre-codex. All in all, I'm very happy with the codex. Even with a far from optimized list, I can bring all my favorite units and still manage to bring the pain.

I'm really look forward to using some of the stratagems I didn't get a chance to - namely Phantasm and Webway Strike.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 02:19:01


Post by: Niiru


chosen_of_khaine wrote:
Played a few 2000 point games with the new Codex running Ulthwe (my personal favorite), won both games rather handily. Here's my list and thoughts on each unit I brought:

Battalion
Autarch (Warlord, w/ Faolchu's Wing and Fate's Messenger trait) - Never got into combat, but between re-rolling 1s and netting me 3-4 CPs between refunds and the trait, I felt he more than made his points back.
Eldrad - I always ran him anyway, and with Doom, Guide, and Executioner, I can't complain. Shout out to the "Forewarning" stratagem, keeping him near the Dark Reapers was nasty.

2x5 Dire Avengers - Did their job bubble wrapping and killing a few light infantry, but thankfully now at a much more reasonable points cost.
5 Rangers - Even with the *massive* points reduction, I'm still not sure about these guys, but maybe that's because I just was rolling horribly with them...

Wraithguard, D-Scythes - Amazing, as always, and being T6 made a difference a few times.
Wave Serpent w/ 2BL, SC, CTM - Just as good as before, and the ability to spend 1 CP to discharge the shield again is ridiculously good. I didn't do this, but I can imagine it being a good idea to discharge turn 1 just so you can use the stratagem every turn following.

2 Fire Prisms - Holy moly are these guys amazing now with the Pulsed Laser Discharge + Linked Fire stratagem. Deleted anything I had them shoot at, and I'm glad to finally be fielding one of my favorite units again without feeling like I'm neutering my list.
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Launcher - Amazing, like before, and I really can't believe they lowered the cost of these guys.

Hemlock Wraithfighter - Also can't believe this got cheaper, and the S12 made a difference more than once. Not being able to conceal itself hurt, but flying around and casting Jinx on units with powerful invuln saves was a godsend.

Outrider Detachment
Warlock Skyrunner - I really only ran the bike because I haven't painted my foot-lock, and really didn't do a whole lot besides concealing units that ended up not getting shot at.

5 Warp Spiders - Thank Khaine these guys can deep strike again, and though I still don't think they're anything to write home about, the points reduction makes me feel less guilty running them.
5 Swooping Hawks - Assault 4 vs Rapid Fire 2 is huge, as they don't have to leave themselves open to an easy charge in order to shoot at max potential. Wasn't unhappy with them.
2x3 Windriders - Solid objective grabbers, and the points reduction helps (obviously). Really all the fast attack units I brought did fine, but nothing spectacular.

Wraithlord w/ 2 flamers, 2SC, ghost glaive - Even with T8 and 4 attacks I have a hard time justifying bringing this. They're probably best completely bare-bones, but I love that sword.

For the record, this list would have been about 2300 points pre-codex. All in all, I'm very happy with the codex. Even with a far from optimized list, I can bring all my favorite units and still manage to bring the pain.

I'm really look forward to using some of the stratagems I didn't get a chance to - namely Phantasm and Webway Strike.



Nice summaries They pretty much all follow what I expected, though I may add to the Tactica that Autarchs ability to get refunds on CP's can be pretty significant... don't think I mentioned that.

About rangers, if you only ran one unit of 5 then you shouldn't expect much, as a few bad rolls can mean they do nothing for a game. It's a unit where if you want to be popping characters reliably, you need at least 10-20 I reckon.


Edit:
While I talk about summaries, an update on the Tactica -

All summaries done (or at least drafted) for HQ, Troops, Elites and Heavy. All links should now be working, both page links and scroll links. I've also added in the Special Rules page, though I have only written in the craftworld traits so far and not any of the stratagems or warlord traits. I'll wait till I have my codex next to me to do that probably.

Galleries are now set up for most (if not all) of the units, but I haven't yet got photos for all of them so most galleries are empty.

FAQ is up, but only with one FAQ. I'm sure more will come soon enough ahah.

Oh, and you can now view the Tactica by unit role, or you can have all units appear in one long page. Turned out both solutions were possible simultaneously, with a bit of fiddling with links.

There is also a Contact form, if you want to contact me directly through the site, or there are Comment options at the bottom of each unit section. Feel free to use either.

Think that's all... hopefully it's a step in the right direction


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 04:19:59


Post by: Fafnir


So... Genuine question, and it sounds a bit dumb, but does an Avatar count as a named character or not?

It's not unique in the fluff, as there's one for every craftworld (well, still living ones, sorry Biel Tan). On the other hand, it's limited to one per army, and as far as I can tell, there's no real specific clarification as to what a "named character" is.

Basically, does the Avatar get access to relics? And is he stuck with the craftworld trait (most of which are garbage on him...), or can he choose from the others because he's not locked into a <Craftworld>?

I mean, right now, it seems like the Avatar is hot garbage, but giving it access to some toys might make it not entirely an afterthought.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 05:11:01


Post by: Spartacus


 Fafnir wrote:
So... Genuine question, and it sounds a bit dumb, but does an Avatar count as a named character or not?

It's not unique in the fluff, as there's one for every craftworld (well, still living ones, sorry Biel Tan). On the other hand, it's limited to one per army, and as far as I can tell, there's no real specific clarification as to what a "named character" is.

Basically, does the Avatar get access to relics? And is he stuck with the craftworld trait (most of which are garbage on him...), or can he choose from the others because he's not locked into a <Craftworld>?

I mean, right now, it seems like the Avatar is hot garbage, but giving it access to some toys might make it not entirely an afterthought.


Not a dumb question, its pretty much up in the air until we get an FAQ.

RAW, he meets all the pre-requisites to have relics and there is nothing strictly stating he can't...

The only thing being that he is lumped in with the other special characters on the points tables.

Taking a look, the only relic he is eligible to take would be the Phoenix gem, double Resurrection anyone?? What a shame he can't take Faolchu's wing - jetbike Avatar

I think the intent was probably that he counts as named character, just my opinion. Either way I hope it will be clarified.





Looking good Niiru!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 05:24:05


Post by: Fafnir


If he counts as a named character, he needs a drop of at least 50 points, because he is so counter-intuitive to everything Eldar have and do as an army right now, and what he does is just so mediocre (and SLOOOOOOOOW) compared to other factions' beatsticks.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:00:08


Post by: ryzouken


The Avatar is absolutely a named character. He is the Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Specifically.

He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else. No relics for him.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:05:31


Post by: Fafnir


Which means he's also the only named character from a codex that can customize their faction keyword, as far as I know. Which is weird.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:19:49


Post by: ryzouken


 Fafnir wrote:
Which means he's also the only named character from a codex that can customize their faction keyword, as far as I know. Which is weird.

I assume it's because listing every craftworld individually would be a waste of ink. The avatar shows up regardless of your craftworld affiliation, and fights revealing the facet of Khaine your craftworlders are most accustomed to expressing themselves. Hence, the <craftworld> keyword.

It is an interesting wrinkle though.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:23:04


Post by: Knight


I'll pick my book on Monday. Is there any way to build your character to have an ability to target a specific model within a squad (such as squad leader or heavy weapon carrier). Unfortunately mind war seems to work only on characters.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:26:20


Post by: ryzouken


 Knight wrote:
I'll pick my book on Monday. Is there any way to build your character to have an ability to target a specific model within a squad (such as squad leader or heavy weapon carrier). Unfortunately mind war seems to work only on characters.

Nothing that granular. Best you can do is bad things to characters. Or just evaporate the whole squad.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:29:42


Post by: Fafnir


Also, for the Avatar thing, did GW say that the Avatar could take the Phoenix Gem on their stream? Because I've heard that to be the case, which makes the can of worms even... wormier. At which point, if GW's own marketing is having trouble with these ambiguities, we'll definitely need an FAQ on the issue.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:48:19


Post by: ryzouken


I didn't watch the stream.
It's worth noting that GW Marketing has issued incorrect information previously, though typically on Facebook.

Just put your relics on other stuff. (Or go a step further and not use the Avatar, since he's slow melee that can't be deepstruck or transported.)


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 06:54:45


Post by: Fafnir


But I like the Avatar's fluff, I love the FW model, and I would like to build a force around it. The problem is that GW hates it.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 07:03:36


Post by: ryzouken


Maybe the VDR stuff will let you make a transport for him then. Like a giant chariot thingy or something. Cause otherwise you're looking at him running across the field at 7+d6" since he's not a legal target for... well... virtually anything. Can't even Quicken him.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 07:04:03


Post by: Fafnir


It's almost as if he was written for an entirely different army.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 07:16:53


Post by: ryzouken


Tangent: I'm having trouble filling out my last 510ish points of Alaitoc. I have an air wing of hemlocks, and a battalion containing Illic, farseer, 15 rangers, and 3 fire prisms. I'd like to squeak in a spiritseer for 45, so I can mindwar people into the dirt (along with the mass of sniper rifles. No characters are safe!) but beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss.

I can fit in 3 triple shuriken cannon wave serpents, but wouldn't have much to put inside them. I feel like a unit of wraith____ would be too expensive, and I wouldn't hit critical mass of warm eldar flesh on table. Scan bikes are tempting, I'd be able to fit a good 15 or so fairly easily.

I guess I'm just wondering what people put in their wave serpents... banshees and fire dragons?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:05:31


Post by: Drake003


I tend to put in my Reapers and my Characters, at least for the start of the game anyway.

Recommend taking a Warlock to specifically allow use of the Seer Council Stratagem.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:10:17


Post by: Therion


ryzouken wrote:
Tangent: I'm having trouble filling out my last 510ish points of Alaitoc. I have an air wing of hemlocks, and a battalion containing Illic, farseer, 15 rangers, and 3 fire prisms. I'd like to squeak in a spiritseer for 45, so I can mindwar people into the dirt (along with the mass of sniper rifles. No characters are safe!) but beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss.

I can fit in 3 triple shuriken cannon wave serpents, but wouldn't have much to put inside them. I feel like a unit of wraith____ would be too expensive, and I wouldn't hit critical mass of warm eldar flesh on table. Scan bikes are tempting, I'd be able to fit a good 15 or so fairly easily.

I guess I'm just wondering what people put in their wave serpents... banshees and fire dragons?


The air wing and the battalion are ok, but take the last detachment full of Dark Reapers. Then you got a pretty nice shooting phase. But it’s not really anything new to the meta in that shape. You try to outshoot other shooty armies. If you don’t go first, you lose. If you go first, you have a big advantage.




Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:10:43


Post by: DaemonColin


Banshees sound like a good idea, what with being able to charge directly from transports now. Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent are effectively pressing the delete button on any vehicle;e you happen to choose, maybe stick a BL and CTM on the one with the Dragons in just to add that bit more anti-tank opportunity. With some clever positioning, I'm right in thinking that you could move the wave serpent, then disembark and fire 4 or 5 fusion guns and a BL all at one tank, everything at full BS? Anything short of a superheavy will be wiped.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:30:56


Post by: ryzouken


I am not taking Ynnari anything. Dark reapers don't seem like they'd be a good fit as they don't patch my lack of infantry killing.

Not sold on the recommendation of a warlock to enable the seer council stratagem. I only have 8 CP, and want to make liberal use of the fire and fade and linked fire stratagems to keep my fire prisms healthy and firing for multiple rounds. That's going to cost a lot of CP. I almost want an autarch to try and regenerate CP, but I see how often AM players whiff on their 5+ rolls so... mrrr....

Bear in mind I've still got the hemlocks and prisms putting out str 9 and 12 shots, potentially. I can pulse laser discharge the three prisms in linked fire mode, dumping 6d3 focused prism shots at a target that are S9 AP-4 d3D. I can also spank a target with three hemlocks dropping 6d3 S12 AP-4 2D. Tank targets are easy enough, and the mess of sniper rifles and mindwar should be able to erase characters well enough. It's general infantry killing I seem to be weak on. The prisms could do that instead, on turns I wasn't linking fire (CP is a limited resource, yo)

Need a good anti infantry solution... high ROF, decent S and AP, low damage, ideally with 24" range or better... it really sounds like shuriken cannons...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:39:37


Post by: Drake003


You may decide your mileage with the Seer Council Stratagem is less due to lower CP count. Always worth. Bearing in mind though. And there are bound to be times when you really need that doom to go off, so having the Warlock enables access to that +1 to cast.

I would always recommend people consider the option.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:42:04


Post by: DaemonColin


Shuricannons seems to be your best bet, though if you're not so bothered about the range, then lots of guardians with shuriken catapults could do the same job. Maybe a shuriken loadout focussed wave serpent, with guardians or dire avengers in it? Provides plenty of up close dakka that could mince a fair amount of light or medium infantry. Windriders would do the same job?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:42:26


Post by: Drake003


As a general Tactic note, Star Engines with the Matchless Agility Stratagem is now at least worth consideration. Being able to move your Wave Serpent a guaranteed 28" in a single movement phase to get your D-Scythe Wraithguard into position gives them a very large threat foot print on the board.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:55:41


Post by: DarknessEternal


 DaemonColin wrote:
Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent are effectively pressing the delete button on any vehicle;e you happen to choose, maybe stick a BL and CTM on the one with the Dragons in just to add that bit more anti-tank opportunity. With some clever positioning, I'm right in thinking that you could move the wave serpent, then disembark and fire 4 or 5 fusion guns and a BL all at one tank, everything at full BS? Anything short of a superheavy will be wiped.


It takes 7 Dragons firing from 5.9" to kill a Leman Russ, on average. This is very much not automatic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Banshees can move across the board as good as, if not better than Harlequins, they are a great supporting melee unit, and if you give them use of CP's they can gain a +1 to wound making them actually dangerous, when they have Power weapons and can wound up to T5 on 4+ or T3 on 3+ its not bad.

What stratagem gives +1 to wound on Banshees?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 08:59:37


Post by: shortymcnostrill


Swooping Hawks could fit the bill, they're cheap, shooty and can deep strike into cover turn 1. 500 points buys a lot of hawks.

Separate topic: I'm disappointed that Storm Guardians* can only take 2 special weapons, instead of 2 per 10. I was considering webway dropping 20 with 4 fusion guns, which essentially means dropping 4 12" bright lances with 16 ablative wounds in my opponent's face (would work better with Iyanden). Too bad that's not possible.


* their chainsword is free now, so they hit about 50% harder than they used to at 7 points. Still not terribly impressive, but it's a buff.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 09:00:11


Post by: ryzouken


 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Banshees can move across the board as good as, if not better than Harlequins, they are a great supporting melee unit, and if you give them use of CP's they can gain a +1 to wound making them actually dangerous, when they have Power weapons and can wound up to T5 on 4+ or T3 on 3+ its not bad.

What stratagem gives +1 to wound on Banshees?

Probably thinking of empower from runes of battle. Not seeing a stratagem that does it.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 09:00:16


Post by: Wyldcarde


If you are happy to go forgeworld shadow spectres are great anti infantry.

Otherwise you are looking at guardians jumping out of a wave serpent or swooping hawks out of deep strike.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 09:14:38


Post by: ryzouken


Wyldcarde wrote:
If you are happy to go forgeworld shadow spectres are great anti infantry.

Otherwise you are looking at guardians jumping out of a wave serpent or swooping hawks out of deep strike.

Ugh. Yeah. Shadow spectres. Probably the best solution. It's a little frustrating that they're significantly better than the standard codex options. They're far better defensively than windriders, almost equal offensively, and cost a point less. A touch slower, but not really enough to matter.

It's pretty amusing that swooping hawks can further boost the mind war shenanigans. "Hey Mr. Reboot Gorillaman! You're Ld 7 (horrify + mindshock pod) now. Roll against my Ld 12 (embolden, swooping hawk exarch) and DIE!!!" Might be able to one round him what with Illic and 15 rangers in the wings...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 11:34:54


Post by: Joey86


About the Avatar.
He is not THE Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Instead he is
A Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine.

There are multiple ones. Dont know how many Craftwordls exist, but i dont see why i wouldnt give him another Warlord Trait other then one of the 5.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 11:56:11


Post by: Wayniac


I've started to skim through my codex and overall I feel like CWE just become solid. Not OP other than some abusive lists (which I will refuse to talk about because it's "wrong"), and there's some Ynnari builds that will be abused as well unless it gets FAQ'd, but for the non-WAAC types there's still a lot of things in the book that became really good and I think outside of the powergaming cheesemongers you'll see a solid variety of lists.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 12:04:30


Post by: Crusaderobr


Wish I could look at my collectors edition codex. Ordered it with the made to order items and probably wont see it for a month. Called customer service to separate the order and they said to email. I email and no response so far...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 12:11:33


Post by: Wayniac


 Crusaderobr wrote:
Wish I could look at my collectors edition codex. Ordered it with the made to order items and probably wont see it for a month. Called customer service to separate the order and they said to email. I email and no response so far...


That really sucks :-( but they did have a disclaimer on the made to order stuff saying it would delay any other shipments that came with them.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 13:28:29


Post by: xmbk


 Korlandril wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
So... Could you run a mixed Craftworld/Ynnari list, fly by with a hemlock, and then use fire and fade to intentionally crash it to soulburst a unit for a hella janky alpha strike?


I think Ynnari should have their own tactica thread, this should be reserved for Craftworlds only


I don't think sacrificing a Hemlock for a Soulburst counts as tactics.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 15:22:22


Post by: Niiru


Joey86 wrote:
About the Avatar.
He is not THE Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Instead he is
A Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine.

There are multiple ones. Dont know how many Craftwordls exist, but i dont see why i wouldnt give him another Warlord Trait other then one of the 5.



I was about to say this. He isn't really a named character. Khaela Mensha Khaine is a named character, the Avatar is just a generic... well, avatar. Battle starts, the craftworld summons an avatar to fight with them. He's not unique, if/when he dies they just summon another one.

There's not even any reason I know of that multiple craftworlds going to war at the same time can't summon their own Avatars. Each Avatar is just an embodiement of the god, so they could summon as many as they want until Khaela runs out of godly power. It's not like Eldrad or a Phoenix Lord, where there is only one in the universe.

I don't have the codex with me to look though, so dunno if he can actually take anything according to the actual rules. Just fluff-wise he's not a 'named character'. I had also read somewhere that he could take the Phoenix Gem, but I don't remember where or why that was.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 16:16:06


Post by: Cream Tea


About the Avatar. I posted this on YMDC: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/743156.page.

My opinion is that the Avatar is a named character, and most people seem to agree. The fact that there are multiple Avatars in the fluff isn't really relevant, you can only bring one in your army, he's listed with the other named characters, and he has "the" in his name. The Avatar isn't any random Avatar of Khaine, he's your craftworld's Avatar specifically, of which there's only one.

"This is my Avatar of Khaine. There are many like it, but this one is mine."


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 16:54:06


Post by: Fafnir


xmbk wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
So... Could you run a mixed Craftworld/Ynnari list, fly by with a hemlock, and then use fire and fade to intentionally crash it to soulburst a unit for a hella janky alpha strike?


I think Ynnari should have their own tactica thread, this should be reserved for Craftworlds only


I don't think sacrificing a Hemlock for a Soulburst counts as tactics.


It's not something you'd do in every game, but if you're in a serious pinch and need to double up on shooting to clear a last objective or destroy a vital target, the extra added firepower/mobility could end up winning a game. It's not a tool you'd want to use regularly, but I'd look forward to seeing the one game out of hundreds/thousands/millions where it actually ends up becoming really useful.

A nice tool to have, even if you don't want to be using it often.

Cream Tea wrote:About the Avatar. I posted this on YMDC: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/743156.page.

My opinion is that the Avatar is a named character, and most people seem to agree. The fact that there are multiple Avatars in the fluff isn't really relevant, you can only bring one in your army, he's listed with the other named characters, and he has "the" in his name. The Avatar isn't any random Avatar of Khaine, he's your craftworld's Avatar specifically, of which there's only one.

"This is my Avatar of Khaine. There are many like it, but this one is mine."


Which also means that, since he can take a custom craftworld name, if you do so, he cannot take a Warlord trait at all. Now, most people will just say "These guys are being run as X CW from the book" and run them as such, but it's an interesting observation.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 16:54:42


Post by: HeavenLord


Hi, I am pretty new to 40k and ELdars and I would like to build a little detachment (500 pts), but my environment is very competitive, so I came to this:


Illic nightspear
Spiritseer

3x5 rangers

Fireprisme

What do you think?
Thanks !


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 17:47:50


Post by: lambsandlions


So I am most interested in Banshees and I am wondering what the best way to field them is. The appeal of them is that they are relatively cheap and can move across the board quickly. The safest way to field them is in a wave serpent but that would actually slow them down and make much more expensive. We can deep strike them but you are not guaranteed a charge and you are spending 3cp right off the bat to deep strike two units which you may want to deep strike slower units like wraiths and firedragons. That leaves just keeping them on foot. They are quick enough to get around on foot but they are really frail.

Not sure what the best way to run these would be.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 18:35:18


Post by: mokoshkana


Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 18:36:11


Post by: ryzouken


If you happen to be alaitoc, you can shiftshroud relic a warlock or spiritseer up the table when you deepstrike a unit of banshees. This’ll let you throw quicken at them, greatly improving their chances of charging. Easier to roll 7 (for the psychic test) than 9 after all.

You might be able to reach them with a biker warlock from regular deployment also. 34” (bike move plus power range) is a long way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...

Another nail in the Grey Knights coffin.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 18:48:45


Post by: Ecdain


mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


This just further kills the game for me, they may as well just get rid of the psyker phase altogether, they clearly don't want psyker armies. Just psyker support characters for the rest of your stuff (yes this is thematic for many armies but not all). I've been playing tzeentch demons for years and it's infuriating watching them slowly choke the life out of the possibility of a psyker heavy army. I don't want an army with 2-4 psykers giving out buffs/debuffs. I wanna stand on top of a mountain hurling lightning at people . It feels like I'm being punished for how I like to play, I understand nerfing malefic Lord's cause them be crazy undercosted, but the day they take any form of mass spells from me if the day I quit.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 18:57:18


Post by: Mandragola


They are fixing a clearly broken spell, if they even are fixing it. Fixing broken stuff makes the game better.

With banshees, it may be better to deploy them in a wave serpent rather than deep strike. They can run incredibly fast thanks to getting out 3” + their 25mm base, moving 8” +advance (possibly using the stratagem to make it auto 6”). That’s nearly 18” of movement, leaving them needing just a 6” charge, and they get a 3” bonus for having advanced.

You do have to pay for the wave serpent of course, but it seems pretty good to me in its own right. It can be repositioned if there’s nothing available to charge on turn one - but there very often will be. And this is before you consider quickening.

I think webway strike should be used for stuff like wraithguard or fire dragons. Banshees are better off deployed.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 19:17:50


Post by: mokoshkana


Ecdain wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


This just further kills the game for me, they may as well just get rid of the psyker phase altogether, they clearly don't want psyker armies. Just psyker support characters for the rest of your stuff (yes this is thematic for many armies but not all). I've been playing tzeentch demons for years and it's infuriating watching them slowly choke the life out of the possibility of a psyker heavy army. I don't want an army with 2-4 psykers giving out buffs/debuffs. I wanna stand on top of a mountain hurling lightning at people . It feels like I'm being punished for how I like to play, I understand nerfing malefic Lord's cause them be crazy undercosted, but the day they take any form of mass spells from me if the day I quit.


Hurl those bolts, but do so knowing it's complete malarkey. Tau and other armies have no access to psychers. Spamming command detachments of spiritseers for the purpose of smiting is just abusing the psychic phase. Especially when you can continually cast them on 5+ without worry of being denied. Your mass psychic phase is safe, but your ability to reliably remove units from the table in that phase needs curbed a bit.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 19:22:48


Post by: Niiru


mokoshkana wrote:
Ecdain wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


This just further kills the game for me, they may as well just get rid of the psyker phase altogether, they clearly don't want psyker armies. Just psyker support characters for the rest of your stuff (yes this is thematic for many armies but not all). I've been playing tzeentch demons for years and it's infuriating watching them slowly choke the life out of the possibility of a psyker heavy army. I don't want an army with 2-4 psykers giving out buffs/debuffs. I wanna stand on top of a mountain hurling lightning at people . It feels like I'm being punished for how I like to play, I understand nerfing malefic Lord's cause them be crazy undercosted, but the day they take any form of mass spells from me if the day I quit.


Hurl those bolts, but do so knowing it's complete malarkey. Tau and other armies have no access to psychers. Spamming command detachments of spiritseers for the purpose of smiting is just abusing the psychic phase. Especially when you can continually cast them on 5+ without worry of being denied. Your mass psychic phase is safe, but your ability to reliably remove units from the table in that phase needs curbed a bit.



Well, actually, this rule might help with Warlocks. Because warlocks don't cast smite, they cast Destructor. I mean sure, it's a -version- of smite, but it's not normal smite.

Same with Grey Knights, they cast a mini-version of smite. If they make the rule that only full-strength smite has this diminishing returns, then it would actually make Grey Knights and Warlocks mildly useful as their baby-smite spam would be more efficient than the alternative.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 19:56:04


Post by: Cream Tea


Niiru wrote:

Well, actually, this rule might help with Warlocks. Because warlocks don't cast smite, they cast Destructor. I mean sure, it's a -version- of smite, but it's not normal smite.

Only if GW choose to specifically call them out. As it stands, Warlocks cast Smite, but they have a rule called Destructor that makes it less destructive (ha!).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 20:36:24


Post by: xmbk


Ecdain wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


This just further kills the game for me, they may as well just get rid of the psyker phase altogether, they clearly don't want psyker armies. Just psyker support characters for the rest of your stuff (yes this is thematic for many armies but not all). I've been playing tzeentch demons for years and it's infuriating watching them slowly choke the life out of the possibility of a psyker heavy army. I don't want an army with 2-4 psykers giving out buffs/debuffs. I wanna stand on top of a mountain hurling lightning at people . It feels like I'm being punished for how I like to play, I understand nerfing malefic Lord's cause them be crazy undercosted, but the day they take any form of mass spells from me if the day I quit.


It's not like psyker dominated armies are a part of the game, traditionally. They've always been a niche, and a troublesome one at that. Much like Flyers, they are great in the fluff, but the game plays better without them.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 20:36:47


Post by: Drake003


Interesting. Considering how powerful Mortal a Wounds are, and how hard they normally are to implement, Smite is the only easy way to employ them.

I personally feel points increase to offending models is an alternative, but I am not too concerned. I guess atleast this way you don't get people trying to find another way around the restriction to abuse how powerful Smite is.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 21:02:51


Post by: bullyboy


No issue with nerfing . multiple smites, although I think units that only cause 1 wound should be exempt (destructor isn't exactly smite). I want extra psykers in my list for support, not offensive capability.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 21:51:47


Post by: Cult of My Boy Blue


Thanks for a great thread as I am just spinning from all the possibilities of this codex. The hardest part being, I have to look at units that have sat for a while. A long while!

Have a question though as I am sure this has been asked and if it was I apologize for not seeing it, if I run two battalions one Ynnari and one Craftworld, IF I have my wraithblades in my Ynarri unit can they be a part of my Craftworld strategems... can I deep strike them as they do have Aeldari keyword? I understand that my Ynnari units are the only that can soulburst and do not gain any of the craftworld traits.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 21:59:12


Post by: mmimzie


So i'm thinking of making a shining spear focused list and i'm trying to figure out how to go about it.

The main question is big units or small units of spears??

WIth 3 9 man units and either biel-tan or Saim-hann can get me a good shot at 2 turn one charges (more on that later). It seems good to have a nice big units 1 so that they can survive an alpha strike, and 2 so that i get more bang for my buck, and those units can tie up multiple units with thier charge. Providing themselves some protection by reducing enemy shooting.

With 4 6 man squads i don't have to worry so much about morale, and i can have the different units go after other targets.

SO which unit size is better???

From thier which craft world. Biel-tan or Saim-hann Both can sue quicken for 1 for sure turn one charge, and both have an ability to help with another turn 1 charge.

Biel-tan offers Court of the young king, and thus i can bring the avatar of khaine to protect the spears from morale, and provide charge rerolls. You also get reroll 1's on the shurikens

Or

Saim-hann this seems better, but i've been wrong in the past about so many other things <.<. You get to advance and charge which is 6" over the biel tan 3", and has pre baked in reroll charges. The charging unit will also pick up reroll 1's to thier melee from that as well. However, i can't do anything to help with morale. Though i will have extra points for not bring the avatar and get access to an autarch to get reroll 1's from his bubble (and maybe a command point).

ANy way i want the list to be a full press on the enemy. Trying to stop enemy shooting by charging them. As most of the top list are from recent tournaments are vulnerable to charging taking out thier shooting ability.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 22:03:05


Post by: Fafnir


 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Thanks for a great thread as I am just spinning from all the possibilities of this codex. The hardest part being, I have to look at units that have sat for a while. A long while!

Have a question though as I am sure this has been asked and if it was I apologize for not seeing it, if I run two battalions one Ynnari and one Craftworld, IF I have my wraithblades in my Ynarri unit can they be a part of my Craftworld strategems... can I deep strike them as they do have Aeldari keyword? I understand that my Ynnari units are the only that can soulburst and do not gain any of the craftworld traits.


Yes, you have it correctly.

The best way to go about things would then likely be a primarily Ynnari list, with a small detachment of craftworld psykers for psychic support and access to stratagems.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 22:06:02


Post by: Lord Perversor


I like to point there is a Biel-tan stratagem that allow re-roll to wound and extra charge distance for an unit of aspects with Exarch.

It's even becomes better if the unit is at 6" from the Avatar when used.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 22:08:48


Post by: Niiru


 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Thanks for a great thread as I am just spinning from all the possibilities of this codex. The hardest part being, I have to look at units that have sat for a while. A long while!

Have a question though as I am sure this has been asked and if it was I apologize for not seeing it, if I run two battalions one Ynnari and one Craftworld, IF I have my wraithblades in my Ynarri unit can they be a part of my Craftworld strategems... can I deep strike them as they do have Aeldari keyword? I understand that my Ynnari units are the only that can soulburst and do not gain any of the craftworld traits.


Yes, you can. As long as you have one craftworld detachment to unlock stratagems, those stratagems can be aimed at any unit in the whole army as long as it meets the criteria of the stratagem. eg. if the stratagem says <Wraith Construct> then that's all you need.

In fact, looking at the wording in the Codex, you could even target Ynnari units with <Craftworld> specific stratagems, as the unit still has the Craftworld keyword. The codex only says they don't gain the traits and ObSec.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 22:11:57


Post by: Fafnir


Lord Perversor wrote:
I like to point there is a Biel-tan stratagem that allow re-roll to wound and extra charge distance for an unit of aspects with Exarch.

It's even becomes better if the unit is at 6" from the Avatar when used.


It does get a bit better, but it also requires you spending 250 points on a model that is really slow with no way to improve its mobility, cannot be supported by most Eldar tools, and has a statline that does not keep up with his point cost.

From a competitive end, you'd be far better off just using the stratagem without the avatar and saving your 250 points and buying an entirely new squad or two of aspects.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/29 22:23:02


Post by: Dionysodorus


I got to play a test game earlier and the Spears were hugely successful. I used a full unit, which deep struck, and had psykers running up behind to cast Quicken, Protect, and Fortune. Their shooting helped bring down a Land Raider and killed a bunch of Intercessors, then they charged and killed off some Assault Terminators, and then in my opponent's turn they killed his biker Librarian in CC. I lost one model. 2+/3++/5+++ is just very hard to budge, and you're paying only 15.5 ppw. But they absolutely can't be ignored.

The big downside to them is just that they don't benefit all that much from Craftworld Attributes. I was running everything Alatoic for the sake of not having a particularly cheesy-looking list, and they literally never got shot at by anything other than Overwatch and pistols. Possibly I don't even need to deep strike them as Alatoic. I guess I could instead use the CP on a big unit of Guardians.

I feel like they're a great fit for Ynnari, since Soulburst gives you another movement option if Quicken fails and gives you a second round of shooting otherwise.

I also tried Swooping Hawks, and these didn't do much. I'm not sure they're good for much other than taking an objective that was too risky to infiltrate Rangers on to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmimzie wrote:
So i'm thinking of making a shining spear focused list and i'm trying to figure out how to go about it.

The main question is big units or small units of spears??

WIth 3 9 man units and either biel-tan or Saim-hann can get me a good shot at 2 turn one charges (more on that later). It seems good to have a nice big units 1 so that they can survive an alpha strike, and 2 so that i get more bang for my buck, and those units can tie up multiple units with thier charge. Providing themselves some protection by reducing enemy shooting.

With 4 6 man squads i don't have to worry so much about morale, and i can have the different units go after other targets.

SO which unit size is better???

From thier which craft world. Biel-tan or Saim-hann Both can sue quicken for 1 for sure turn one charge, and both have an ability to help with another turn 1 charge.

Biel-tan offers Court of the young king, and thus i can bring the avatar of khaine to protect the spears from morale, and provide charge rerolls. You also get reroll 1's on the shurikens

Or

Saim-hann this seems better, but i've been wrong in the past about so many other things <.<. You get to advance and charge which is 6" over the biel tan 3", and has pre baked in reroll charges. The charging unit will also pick up reroll 1's to thier melee from that as well. However, i can't do anything to help with morale. Though i will have extra points for not bring the avatar and get access to an autarch to get reroll 1's from his bubble (and maybe a command point).

ANy way i want the list to be a full press on the enemy. Trying to stop enemy shooting by charging them. As most of the top list are from recent tournaments are vulnerable to charging taking out thier shooting ability.

I think that, aside from one or maybe two units which benefit from stratagems or psychic powers, you really just want 3-man Spears units. You give up a little bit in that you tie things up less efficiently and take a bit more Overwatch fire, but the Exarch is just so much better than a normal Spear that it's worth it. That he has three wounds is alone a huge deal. He takes the squad from 15.5 ppw to 13.6 ppw, with the option to take 2-damage hits like overcharged plasma on a 3-wound model. And then he gets 50% more attacks which are 25% better against T4 and 100% better against T7. And he re-rolls wounds against monsters and vehicles, including with his shuriken catapults. He's worth almost as much as 2 regular Spears. Consider that a regular Spear expects to do 1.85 wounds to a Razorback. The Exarch with star lance expects 5.6 wounds (and also it's kind of nuts that a 95 point, <14ppw unit has a good chance of destroying a T7 W10 target when starting from ~20" away). I think that in my relatively more casual pure Alatoic list I'm going to just start bringing multiple small Spears squads.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 00:51:01


Post by: Oaka


I like the looks of putting two full units of Saim-Hann banshees in the webway. They need 6+ on 2D6 with rerolls to get into combat and avoid overwatch. Alternatively, a unit of Shining Spears and a Skyrunner Warlock casting Quicken coming out of the webway should let the bikes move over whatever screening unit is present and shoot/charge something good on the first turn. I believe those can be Ynnari spears, as well. Definitely a good panic unit to throw right into an opponent's deployment zone from the get-go.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 01:37:55


Post by: Colgado


I too was interested in Saim Hann banshees coming in through webway assault but they only get the bonus to charge if they advance. Quicken works of course, and re-rolls to charge help, but they're no better than wraithblades, scorpions, or any other unit after deepstriking.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 02:04:09


Post by: DarknessEternal


 Oaka wrote:
I like the looks of putting two full units of Saim-Hann banshees in the webway. They need 6+ on 2D6 with rerolls to get into combat and avoid overwatch.

This is incorrect. Banshees only add 3" to their charge range on turns they Advance. You don't get an opportunity to Advance with Webway Strike.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 02:53:19


Post by: mmimzie


 DarknessEternal wrote:
 Oaka wrote:
I like the looks of putting two full units of Saim-Hann banshees in the webway. They need 6+ on 2D6 with rerolls to get into combat and avoid overwatch.

This is incorrect. Banshees only add 3" to their charge range on turns they Advance. You don't get an opportunity to Advance with Webway Strike.


yeah currently the best turn 1 charge options availible to us are. Court of the young king Biel-tan only which is 2-3 (even just 2 is a pretty decent bonus), and i prefer scoprs for this because they come with thier own deepstrike mechanic. Also, since your deep striking you'll be out of the range of most flamers so the banshee mask isn't such a big deal. Saim-Hann has decent turn one charge option in the form of warriors of the raging winds, allows bike to advance and charge pulling off a 22" move which in many deployment maps is a really easy turn 1 charge. These two strategems are not availible to ynnari. units of 3 vypers move 20" if not knocked down to 2, and with saim-hann craftworld giving them re-roll charges can make a good first turn charge to turn off a unit's shooting.


One small nod craftworld eldar have over taking the units in ynnari would be war lord traits and relics. Neither can be takening in ynnari as you war lord must be one of the the ynnari dudes. The Biel-tan relic the spirit stone is very nice because given to a warlock allows you to reroll your quick spell cast (which is another turn 1 charge options).

Though i would like a tune down on the ynnari perhaps blocking them from taking aspect warriors or something. Not that i think ynnari is wildly over powered; more that ithink eldar is actualy at a good spot, but ynnari can kind of do a lot of it better. I definitly think thier are a few nice things eldar can do over ynnari, but those are pretty small things when compared to strength from death and how it can be utilized.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 07:32:09


Post by: Knight


So the Autarch. What configuration are you planning to take? I'm thinking on taking him on foot, have him support Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 07:53:01


Post by: wuestenfux


A Seer Council was harder to crack than a coco nut in former editions. Now it melts like snow.
E.g., a lascannon shot was inflicting one wound in former editions, so the Council had a 4++ inv. save and then if missed a fortune roll on 4+.
Now a lascannon shot inflicts D6 wounds and the fortune roll is on 5+.
Warlocks are also too expensive for my liking, 20 pts would have sufficed.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 08:56:31


Post by: mmimzie


 wuestenfux wrote:
A Seer Council was harder to crack than a coco nut in former editions. Now it melts like snow.
E.g., a lascannon shot was inflicting one wound in former editions, so the Council had a 4++ inv. save and then if missed a fortune roll on 4+.
Now a lascannon shot inflicts D6 wounds and the fortune roll is on 5+.
Warlocks are also too expensive for my liking, 20 pts would have sufficed.


I supee agree and super disagree with you. I agree they are alittle lack luster with rend and 4++ save they feel like a very expensive and vulnerable squad.

They do have good damage out, but will always be out shined by something like shining soears. For almost the same price you get something thwt packs more punch a better native save and the same invuln.

Where I disagree is them bei ng cheaper. They simply can't be cheaper. Those buff they have access to are to intense, and almost always the best target for them will be some one else.

Though putting it all together they do make a super self contained hit squad. With web way portal they can drop down. Self quick, cast a powerful smite (or to hit buff themselves), and reduce the save of thier target on with the singing spears you can give the a pseudo +1 attack. As I said they won't be better than the buffs on another target, but it will be cheaper or more combat than x warlocks + thier target buffing unit.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 09:21:17


Post by: Dionysodorus


mmimzie wrote:

I supee agree and super disagree with you. I agree they are alittle lack luster with rend and 4++ save they feel like a very expensive and vulnerable squad.

They do have good damage out, but will always be out shined by something like shining soears. For almost the same price you get something thwt packs more punch a better native save and the same invuln.

Where I disagree is them bei ng cheaper. They simply can't be cheaper. Those buff they have access to are to intense, and almost always the best target for them will be some one else.

Though putting it all together they do make a super self contained hit squad. With web way portal they can drop down. Self quick, cast a powerful smite (or to hit buff themselves), and reduce the save of thier target on with the singing spears you can give the a pseudo +1 attack. As I said they won't be better than the buffs on another target, but it will be cheaper or more combat than x warlocks + thier target buffing unit.

I mean, Astropaths are 15 points, are Characters, and are each 1/1/1 psykers, albeit with a bad smite (which is still better than a standalone Warlock's). I think 20 points would be reasonable for individual Warlocks, and certainly in a Conclave you wouldn't want to pay more than this. You get to manifest 1 power per 3 Warlocks. As-is you have to spend 120 points to get 2 casts, which degrades to 1 at the first casualty.

mmimzie wrote:

yeah currently the best turn 1 charge options availible to us are. Court of the young king Biel-tan only which is 2-3 (even just 2 is a pretty decent bonus), and i prefer scoprs for this because they come with thier own deepstrike mechanic. Also, since your deep striking you'll be out of the range of most flamers so the banshee mask isn't such a big deal. Saim-Hann has decent turn one charge option in the form of warriors of the raging winds, allows bike to advance and charge pulling off a 22" move which in many deployment maps is a really easy turn 1 charge. These two strategems are not availible to ynnari. units of 3 vypers move 20" if not knocked down to 2, and with saim-hann craftworld giving them re-roll charges can make a good first turn charge to turn off a unit's shooting.


One small nod craftworld eldar have over taking the units in ynnari would be war lord traits and relics. Neither can be takening in ynnari as you war lord must be one of the the ynnari dudes. The Biel-tan relic the spirit stone is very nice because given to a warlock allows you to reroll your quick spell cast (which is another turn 1 charge options).

Though i would like a tune down on the ynnari perhaps blocking them from taking aspect warriors or something. Not that i think ynnari is wildly over powered; more that ithink eldar is actualy at a good spot, but ynnari can kind of do a lot of it better. I definitly think thier are a few nice things eldar can do over ynnari, but those are pretty small things when compared to strength from death and how it can be utilized.

I don't see why Ynnari couldn't use the Biel-Tan or Saim-Hann stratagems, provided you've also got a Craftworlds detachment.

But yes, the main drawback of taking any Ynnari units is that you lose access to warlord stuff. I would note that in the case of the Craftworld codex this is an especially minor cost -- Craftworld warlord traits and relics are just about the worst of any codex yet released. Like, as soon as there's an Ynnari or Harlequin or Dark Eldar codex you're probably going to want a warlord from one of those armies instead so that you can take actually-good stuff. The most valuable thing about having a Craftworlds warlord is Path of Command, which requires that you have an Autarch who is on the battlefield (not in a transport, not in reserve, etc.), and even when it works this is only half as good as other factions' warlord traits. None of the actual warlord traits are notably good. The relics are all just terrible. Your own recommendation is a relic that will typically be worth about 1 CP over the course of a game. You could also take Faolchu's Wing to save a couple points on wings or a bike, or Blazing Star of Vaul to slightly increase a model's shooting output.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 09:42:57


Post by: Kdash


mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


I’d be very interested if they did make this change. For one, it’d seriously hurt Daemons and Astra Militarum smite spam lists, but could also affect other armies depending on how they rule it (i.e is Grey Knight “smite” the same Smite? Is “Destructor” still smite?)

Beyond that, I don’t really see it affecting Eldar too much. The reason why I want to run 7 Psykers + Hemlocks, is not because I want to spam smite, it’s because I want all the powers I can get. Fortune, Doom, Guide, Executioner. Conceal, Protect, Jinx, Quicken, Enhance, Empower and Restrain.

Sure, I’d have all the possible smites if I really really needed them, but it wouldn’t be my initial “go to”.

It kind of bugs me that one of the best psychic races in the entire 40k universe has psykers that only know 1 power (granted it’s 2 powers but only 1 option). I’d be a lot happier if it was, “Know 2 powers, cast 1”. As it stands a Primaris Psyker is more knowledgeable of the Warp than a Warlock or Spiritseer.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 10:09:32


Post by: Puganaut


 Knight wrote:
So the Autarch. What configuration are you planning to take? I'm thinking on taking him on foot, have him support Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders.



I'm liking the winged autarch. Skyleap seems really good for jumping buffs, and survivability. However, I do think the skyrunner is probably the best option. I'll grab both, as I love the models, but I'll probably run the skyrunner.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 11:54:21


Post by: mmimzie


If your warlord is Saim-hann can you take a biel-tan relic on a biel-tan character in your army???

Dionysodorus wrote:
mmimzie wrote:


I don't see why Ynnari couldn't use the Biel-Tan or Saim-Hann stratagems, provided you've also got a Craftworlds detachment.

But yes, the main drawback of taking any Ynnari units is that you lose access to warlord stuff. I would note that in the case of the Craftworld codex this is an especially minor cost -- Craftworld warlord traits and relics are just about the worst of any codex yet released. Like, as soon as there's an Ynnari or Harlequin or Dark Eldar codex you're probably going to want a warlord from one of those armies instead so that you can take actually-good stuff. The most valuable thing about having a Craftworlds warlord is Path of Command, which requires that you have an Autarch who is on the battlefield (not in a transport, not in reserve, etc.), and even when it works this is only half as good as other factions' warlord traits. None of the actual warlord traits are notably good. The relics are all just terrible. Your own recommendation is a relic that will typically be worth about 1 CP over the course of a game. You could also take Faolchu's Wing to save a couple points on wings or a bike, or Blazing Star of Vaul to slightly increase a model's shooting output.


Again I see what your saying, but i feel they gotta cost 30. They are actually aren't that terrible when attack multi wound models, and if you think of a web way striking warlock squads buffing it self. they come pretty close to what you get out of a shining spear and genestealer level of alpha strike power which are some pretty awesome melee units. Durability wise i totally agree they are really expensive, and i think your paying a tax for the ability to take those buffs and pass them onto different units. I think the best compromise would be to make it so warlock council can only buf itself and then has a reduced price maybe something like 20 points. Which seems fair as their power relies on them getting thier abilities off and if they fail or are denied they become a bit lack luster.

Relic might be just one CP if you only use it once, but for a turn 1 charge opportunity?? i'd like my 82% chance to get off quicken on my shining spears over just a 52% chance or to have to drop a command point on it when i optimized my list to use exactly all the CP i have on other things. Heck it's multiple CP on other powers like enhance/Protect/etc where they have value outside of turn 1 and you'll want to keep using it. Honestly to me it's the only relic. That and the saim-hann relic and warlord trait combo <.< though that's more a dream scenario kind of thing haha!



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 12:10:38


Post by: Purifying Tempest


mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...


I've played 2 games with the new Codex. 5 Psykers in 1, 2 in the second. I have cast Smite/Destructor less than 5 times, easily, probably less than 3. Runes of Battle are REALLY good. They will do a whole lot more than a mortal wound here and there. This rumor should be a non-factor for Eldar armies, since the Psychic phase will be where the force multiplication really hurts your opponents. This change will also make powers like Mind War and Executioner a lot better, since right now it just feels better to take support spells for multiplication and then smite for filler when needed, but I still don't think they'll jump in priority over things like Guide and Doom.

Edit: Kdesh beat me to the point But going to leave the post because I think the Runes of Battle and Fate are just that good... Smite spamming feels like a hindrance for what we could be doing


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 12:40:15


Post by: Wayniac


I have heard that Smite will be limited to 3 uses per turn in Chapter Approved.

Also GW facebook has apparently made it clear that you can NOT take the index autarch stuff. Someone asked and they said some things about how "forcing a new hobbyist to convert wouldn't be cool" but how hey you could just make your own rules for it (like anyone will).

See reddit post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/79ipj0/today_from_games_workshop_after_removing_all/


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 14:24:46


Post by: RuneGrey


Wayniac wrote:
I have heard that Smite will be limited to 3 uses per turn in Chapter Approved.

Also GW facebook has apparently made it clear that you can NOT take the index autarch stuff. Someone asked and they said some things about how "forcing a new hobbyist to convert wouldn't be cool" but how hey you could just make your own rules for it (like anyone will).

See reddit post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/79ipj0/today_from_games_workshop_after_removing_all/


At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 14:31:31


Post by: Purifying Tempest


 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.


Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 15:04:26


Post by: Fafnir


Purifying Tempest wrote:
 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.


Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.



...that last one is still a bit up in the air for now. I'm hoping GW makes the right decision.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 16:07:45


Post by: Shadenuat


Somewhat offtopic, but I like Fuegan. "Only concentrated beam penetrates". ~hohoho
"and remember, in the end, everything burns."

I think I want to play this guy just to say a few of these lines, since he's the funniest being both meltablaster and ax berserker. I doub't he'll melee other powerful characters out there tho.

mmimzie wrote:
I think scorpions edge out banshees in any situation other than vehicles.

Sorry if it was already answered, but it's actually any situation when enemy is infantry. Mandiblasters don't work on anything but, so the moment you fights beasts, bikers, monsters, whatever - you're out of your mortal wounds.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 16:57:51


Post by: mmimzie


Fafnir wrote:
Purifying Tempest wrote:
 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.


Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.



...that last one is still a bit up in the air for now. I'm hoping GW makes the right decision.


i agree. I think they should just have a named character keyword. Make that nice and easy

Shadenuat wrote:Somewhat offtopic, but I like Fuegan. "Only concentrated beam penetrates". ~hohoho
"and remember, in the end, everything burns."

I think I want to play this guy just to say a few of these lines, since he's the funniest being both meltablaster and ax berserker. I doub't he'll melee other powerful characters out there tho.

mmimzie wrote:
I think scorpions edge out banshees in any situation other than vehicles.

Sorry if it was already answered, but it's actually any situation when enemy is infantry. Mandiblasters don't work on anything but, so the moment you fights beasts, bikers, monsters, whatever - you're out of your mortal wounds.


Yeah your most definitly right, but i figured people would assume as much. Actualy if the target is in cover you don't have to worry about the mandiblaster. That +1 one really helps out.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 16:58:36


Post by: Galef


Anyone else notice that Fortune replaces similar rules, rather than no working at all?
So you can Fortune a vehicle with Spirit Stones or any Ulthwe unit and get a 5+++ instead of just the 6+++. Not a bad compromise.

I am loving the idea of a large Shining Spear unit with Quicken and protect thrown on them. 2+/3++ against shooting and a 32" move + 2D6" charge? Yes please
Make them Biel-tan to reroll 1's for their Cats, or Saim-hann to really make sure they can charge literally any unit on the table.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 17:18:33


Post by: Shadenuat


I love the prices and sheer amount of +Strength power weapons. Eldar probably found some closed garage somewhere which was full of them. Makes all other options useless tho and more like an aesthetics thing, since every banshee would take executioner, every scorpion would grab cheap claw, even simpliest Autarch on foot would strike with S6, hitting on 3+ re-roll 1s, etc.
Some of them (like scorpion's claw when compared to biting blade) are even seem *too* cheap to me. Sure we won't multiply our elfs Strength to 8, but there is no penalty to hit either.

I played everything through years, from 4th edition Eldrad-Scatterwalkers-Direserpents, played Seer Council, scatbikes, eva, but I never played actual aspects except the 6 fire dragons in falcon/serpent. Now they are all seem very, very play-able to me, and some even, well...

Tau pathfinder with Rail-rifle (strength 6) with BS 4+ & 5+ armor save costs same as our Dark Reaper. Think about it.

Hawks are also interesting, Shining spears too.

Warp Spiders I think are still not there, they really needed that "wound in initiative" but now there is not one, so you can spend 1 CP and deep strike 20 ulthwe guardians with BS2+ and they will do the job it better than Spiders I think; while Hawks can just lay lazor fire from safe distance sitting in cover with Alaitoc trait on top.
Although they *did* get their DS which is simply marvellous. It's just that their guns don't do anything special compared to simple shuriken spam. Maybe something like "+1 damage if target wounds are 3 or more unless it's a vehicle" or something... but whatever. Still a great update.

Ooh and they can shoot after fall back. Nice!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 18:39:28


Post by: Spartacus


I have recently taken the plunge and purchased a Scorpion Heavy Grav Tank (what a moron )

Mostly for a painting project, but I know I will eventually bring it against my friends LOW's. Ill keep it mostly stock in game but obviously Spirit Stones for 10 points is a no brainer.

Can anyone think of any stratagem/psychic/other shenanigans when using a Super Heavy Tank with such a gratuitous amount of firepower? All I can think of is perhaps using Cloudstrike to shield it from a turn 1 beating, and it would obviously be a hilarious candidate for the Forewarned stratagem, with the ability to pretty much auto-delete an enemy deepstriker of your choice when next to a Farseer. As far as I can tell it meets the keyword requisites to use these stratagems at least.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 18:55:44


Post by: Purifying Tempest


Spartacus wrote:
I have recently taken the plunge and purchased a Scorpion Heavy Grav Tank (what a moron )

Mostly for a painting project, but I know I will eventually bring it against my friends LOW's. Ill keep it mostly stock in game but obviously Spirit Stones for 10 points is a no brainer.

Can anyone think of any stratagem/psychic/other shenanigans when using a Super Heavy Tank with such a gratuitous amount of firepower? All I can think of is perhaps using Cloudstrike to shield it from a turn 1 beating, and it would obviously be a hilarious candidate for the Forewarned stratagem, with the ability to pretty much auto-delete an enemy deepstriker of your choice when next to a Farseer. As far as I can tell it meets the keyword requisites to use these stratagems at least.


At a glance: Guide, Doom, Jinx, and Phatasm all seem decent things to get more out of the tank.

Guide to make sure those high cost shots land, especially if it is alpha struck but not killed.

Doom because... it is probably the best spell in Runes of Fate... poke a unit, press delete key.

Jinx will help to soften irritating invulnerable saves.

You can also split Doom and Jinx to give the super heavy two targets to split fire.

Phantasm allows you to deploy in X configuration, and then decide to move your Farseer + Super Heavy tank close together to leverage Forewarned to counter deep striking units that can threaten the Scorpion.

I'm pretty sure Forewarned allows any Asuryani unit within 6" of the Farseer to fire. Phantasm allows up to whatever number of Asuryani to redeploy after setup. Unfortunately, the buffing side of Runes of Battle seem largely restricted to Infantry/Biker units, meaning you'll have to leverage the debuffing side to get some mileage out of Warlocks.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 19:28:08


Post by: mmimzie


 Galef wrote:
Anyone else notice that Fortune replaces similar rules, rather than no working at all?
So you can Fortune a vehicle with Spirit Stones or any Ulthwe unit and get a 5+++ instead of just the 6+++. Not a bad compromise.

I am loving the idea of a large Shining Spear unit with Quicken and protect thrown on them. 2+/3++ against shooting and a 32" move + 2D6" charge? Yes please
Make them Biel-tan to reroll 1's for their Cats, or Saim-hann to really make sure they can charge literally any unit on the table.




Yes sure on the spears sure. On top of protect you can use the -1 to hit strategem if a knight assigns a bunch of attacks to your squads and/or use the webway to hide them

List i'm plunking at is 2x9spear units in saim-hann with an autarch (you get that biel-tan reroll 1's. The autarch can also take the warlord trait that allows you to ignore over watch or the falcon swiftness warlord trait depending on the opponent. That detachment also has 3 more min squads of spears with exarch and star lance in it as well. Haven't gotten a chance to mess with it because i'm covering up a bunch of really cool shining spears. will be 2 weeks before its operation. I'm tempted to bust one of the units of 9 down to 2 more 3 man squads and using the points elsewhere, and keeping the 9 man squad in the webway.

i like the web way command point because you can wait to use it, and see if your opponent puts any nail in your side scouts down. Other deepstriking ubnits have to pay a points tax to get that ability, and if you don't use the deep strike you almost wasting points.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 19:51:21


Post by: Wayniac


GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 19:53:32


Post by: Cephalobeard


Wayniac wrote:
GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.


Gonna want to see the quote on that one.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 20:02:28


Post by: DCannon4Life


Wayniac wrote:
GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.

You can likely expect TO's to nix this for tournament play.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 20:03:03


Post by: Galef


I am pretty sure GW will continue allowing use of Index entries that didn't make it to the Codex. Auto-cannon Dreads and Biker Librarians are still legal afterall.

The REAL question is: If you can take the Index Autarch with Codex prices, which Banshee mask do you use?
The one on the Index datasheet does something very different (and inferior) to the Banshee Mask in the Codex. But if you are taking the Index Autarch (that has the rule right on it for Banshee Mask) which rule do you use?

I'd like to use the Codex Banshee mask to ignore overwatch with my Autarch, but considering that you need to use the entry from the Index just to get the option of using the mask, I'd say you need to use the "always goes first" rule instead (at which point you'd be better off using Mandiblasters.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 20:03:16


Post by: Wayniac


Image:

Spoiler:


So this would mean that you could always choose to use the index datasheet with the codex points values even when the codex overrides an entry in the index (as the Autarch does). Even if the codex has an updated entry, you can opt to use the index version instead. So, going by that logic, if you don't like the recent change to Commissars, you can just use the index datasheet instead. If, in the future, you dislike how they changed a unit, you can use the index version instead.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 20:05:47


Post by: Cream Tea


I don't trust GW Facebook guys.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 20:08:23


Post by: Wayniac


I don't either, but that seems to be the case at he moment, crazy as it is. FWIW Frontline Gaming has stated for ITC events you must use the most recent version, you can't pick and choose.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:11:53


Post by: popisdead


ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.

Does 40k have "you may only take on instance of this warscroll" like AoS? That would be your indicator if nothing else.

Joey86 wrote:About the Avatar.
He is not THE Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Instead he is
A Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine.


"an" But this is correct. You cannot have 2 Yvrainnes, you could have a Lugganeth Avatar and an Ulthwe Avatar both being distinct. That alone should pretty much stop people thinking he is a named character.

Cream Tea wrote:, and most people seem to agree. ."


The problem is that is the vocal minority weighing in and I wouldn't take that to a game and explain it to my opponent that "I found some people on the net that agree with me".


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:14:07


Post by: mmimzie


Nah i think he's really just saying it in the same way you can house rule the game. Or house rule that all space marines can fly because they are so buff, etc. They'd need to FAQ or errata it for this to be the official way to go about it. Or do a warhammer community post.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:14:33


Post by: Dionysodorus


Wayniac wrote:

So this would mean that you could always choose to use the index datasheet with the codex points values even when the codex overrides an entry in the index (as the Autarch does). Even if the codex has an updated entry, you can opt to use the index version instead. So, going by that logic, if you don't like the recent change to Commissars, you can just use the index datasheet instead. If, in the future, you dislike how they changed a unit, you can use the index version instead.

This seems like a very implausible reading of what they're trying to say. The context here is weapon options. Possibly they're just reading that Warhammer Community article and doing their best to interpret it. But note that the Community article is explicit that you've got to use updated rules in general. This is obviously in need of a FAQ but I don't think there's any worry about it being possible to go back and use pre-nerf Commissars or whatever.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:21:59


Post by: Galef


I think the line is drawn at what you consider "updated rules". Using the Autarch as an example, there are no "updated" rules for an Autarch with Jump Generator and Reaper launcher, so you can clearly use the Index datasheet to represent that option.

What you probably cannot do is take a Skyrunner Autarch with Laser lance AND Fusion gun. Because while that option was a valid Index entry, the updated Skyrunner only allows Laser lance OR Fusion gun. But does this also mean that you cannot give that Autarch a Banshee mask? That line is a bit more fuzzy.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:25:12


Post by: Dionysodorus


I think the clear intention of the Community article is that, yeah, you can bring a Skyrunner with laser lance and fusion gun, and then you would use the updated rules for banshee masks and Path of Command. The point is to make sure that models aren't rendered illegal.

That said I don't think that it's worth spending too much time worrying about this. The situation with Autarchs is the first time this codex vs index question has been so prominent, and I would expect it to be addressed in the usual week 2 FAQ.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:34:11


Post by: Cream Tea


popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.

Does 40k have "you may only take on instance of this warscroll" like AoS? That would be your indicator if nothing else.


You can only have one Avatar of Khaine in your army, just like you can have only one Eldrad.

Joey86 wrote:About the Avatar.
He is not THE Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Instead he is
A Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine.


"an" But this is correct. You cannot have 2 Yvrainnes, you could have a Lugganeth Avatar and an Ulthwe Avatar both being distinct. That alone should pretty much stop people thinking he is a named character.


No. You can't have more than one Avatar of Khaine. In the fluff you could, but fluff isn't rules.

Cream Tea wrote:, and most people seem to agree. ."


The problem is that is the vocal minority weighing in and I wouldn't take that to a game and explain it to my opponent that "I found some people on the net that agree with me".


Right. The same goes for the other interpretation. None of them is unquestionably the right one, because GW didn't write the rules clearly enough. More people agreeing with one interpretation means two players are more likely to agree to play it that way though.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:45:39


Post by: Wayniac


The argument I'm seeing is this weird "cherry pick" where you can take the Codex Autarch w/Wings, and then "transfer" the weapon options from the Index (e.g. Reaper Launcher) but pay the points listed in the Codex, kind of a hybrid. All based on this "Rifleman Dread" thing they said in an FAQ at the start of 8th, something about how you could use the codex entry but index weapon options at codex points, which is an even more convoluted gray area.

I think for the health of the game they're going to need to firmly state that no, you can only use the Codex (but you could always house-rule that you can take both) to establish a baseline; it will piss people off because it would mean for Matched Play (i.e. the default) you can't use those old models, but otherwise it's this nebulous you can take X from the Codex but pick Y options from the Index that no longer exist in the Codex area that will just lead to confusion and abuse.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 21:53:05


Post by: Knight


I wouldn't be surprised if tournament organizers or pick up games follow the same line of thought and allow only entries in the latest codex (FAQ, Chapter Approved).

Eventually the indexes will be phased out and only codexes will remain, either way I look, I feel the days of older profiles are numbered.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 22:02:48


Post by: Purifying Tempest


Wayniac wrote:
The argument I'm seeing is this weird "cherry pick" where you can take the Codex Autarch w/Wings, and then "transfer" the weapon options from the Index (e.g. Reaper Launcher) but pay the points listed in the Codex, kind of a hybrid. All based on this "Rifleman Dread" thing they said in an FAQ at the start of 8th, something about how you could use the codex entry but index weapon options at codex points, which is an even more convoluted gray area.

I think for the health of the game they're going to need to firmly state that no, you can only use the Codex (but you could always house-rule that you can take both) to establish a baseline; it will piss people off because it would mean for Matched Play (i.e. the default) you can't use those old models, but otherwise it's this nebulous you can take X from the Codex but pick Y options from the Index that no longer exist in the Codex area that will just lead to confusion and abuse.


Abuse... like an Aliatoc Autarch with a Reaper Launcher and Mark of the Incomparable Hunter and the Spiritshroud of Alanssair sitting next to Illic Nightspear? This thought was probably what quelled a lot of my outrage over the lack of kitting for Autarchs.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 23:06:15


Post by: Shadenuat


Yeah, kitting Autarches. Pretty much any option except bike autarch was bad, recently people used autarch with reaper-ml for free re-rolls and that's it. Any other option but Yriel just wouldn't do much in combat except re-rolls.

Now you have a foot guy with S6 halberd who can grab relic wing for free and move '12 and Fly and still ride in serpent, a guy with fusion pistol, with deep strike who can take any of the murderswords in relics and actually do something in combat, a jetbike autarch with selection of all the melees murderswords or murderpikes you would ever want and you can slap -1 to hit on top of all that if you really want to. All this can be then further augmented with things like MOAR re-rolls to everyone, an auto pass of morale within '6, or even MOAR KP regeneration. Hell, you can even create a sniper with fusion gun on a jetbike shooting enemy characters.

I gotta miss an autarch with scorpion sword and spider's "roll 2 and die" backpack so much, eh?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/30 23:33:26


Post by: Niiru


OK, so as I see it there are a couple big common questions around at the moment:

- Can you take the Autarch with Warp Generator, or an Autarch on foot with various index weapon options?

- And if so, which Banshee Mask rule does that Autarch use?

- Is the Avatar a "named character"?

I am refraining from putting anything in the tactica FAQ regarding any of these, as there is no firm answer for it other than my own interpretation, and I'm *hoping* that at least one of these will be answered in the first official FAQ.

But from previous things that GW did for the other Codices, the Autarch with Jump Generator should definitely be a valid option, as he is an actual Datasheet that has no update. Chaos Lords on Juggernauts are here to say "this is fine, folks!"

Also, the Avatar is -technically- not a named character. There's no rule or implication that says he has a name. Avatar is a generic description, like 'Wraithlord'. He isn't "Avatar Greg".

However, I fully expect that he is -supposed- to be a named character. They probably intended to put "Unique Characters", but put named instead because GW don't proof read their books lol.

This is just my interpretations though, so I won't be putting anything in the FAQ just yet. Hope the official errata come up soon.


+++++Transmission Interrupted++++++
+++++++++Tactica Update++++++++++

OK so just to let you know, I've had an issue with the backend I was using for the tactica. Nothing ground-breaking, but it was just making my life difficult and wasn't looking all that great. So I'm changing it.

The current tactica will be remaining in place while I duplicate the content into the new backend I'm using (shouldn't take long, I've already done half of it).

However there might be a (hopefully brief) time while the tactica is unavailable. I mean, the website will still work, but it'll look broken. Probably.

Just thought I'd pass that along. I'll update when it's all been done.

+++++++Transmission End+++++++++++++


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 00:42:11


Post by: mmimzie


I've changed my opinion here is the link to the community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

And here is a quote fro. The article (On phone so forgive formatting).
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
A.While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Q.Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.


So you use the datasheets from the index and points from the codex. So if your using index autarch you have to use the index banshee max but codex price for the model and wargear.

You also get to use all the tactics and stratagem where appropriate. Honestly they were pretty clear. Even more so as the banshee mask rules are on the models index datasheet. Even more his path of command is on his datasheet. This can change with the faq, bu5 assuming anymore I feel like your reaching


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 00:46:28


Post by: Dionysodorus


Did another couple tests with Shining Spears recently. I love these things. The Quicken bomb is just devastating. Even small 3-man units deployed on the table were working out great. As Alatoic, they're actually quite durable. They're about as durable as non- Raven Guard tactical Marines in cover against Earthshakers, for example. They're almost twice as durable per point as Dire Avengers against small arms fire. That's not even considering the free extra wound on the Exarch. And then even at 12" they still shoot 77% as well as Avengers. It is totally worth it to advance to get them into laser lance range instead of hiding because you can't get close enough to charge. At 6" they expect to kill 47% of their cost in tactical Marines through shooting alone. Of course, charging is great -- they expect to kill 84% of their cost in tactical Marines if they get to charge.

Playing around with them also reminded me that mathhammer efficiency often understates a unit's real effectiveness because you're rarely attacking naked Guardsmen or Marines, and then you can also force morale tests (buffed by Hemlocks even). Yeah, a Spear only expects to kill 39% of its cost in naked Infantry when it shoots and charges, but if the squad you're killing has 10 points in upgrades then it's closer to 50%, and if you only need to kill 8 models to force the rest to run then this is more like 60%.

It gets pretty silly when you consider the Exarch too. A 95 point 3-man squad that shoots and charges naked tactical Marines expects to kill 94% of its points. It expects to do 9.3 wounds to a T7 3+ vehicle or monster (which are typically paying 10 ppw minimum).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 00:49:53


Post by: xmbk


Purifying Tempest wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
I have recently taken the plunge and purchased a Scorpion Heavy Grav Tank (what a moron )

Mostly for a painting project, but I know I will eventually bring it against my friends LOW's. Ill keep it mostly stock in game but obviously Spirit Stones for 10 points is a no brainer.

Can anyone think of any stratagem/psychic/other shenanigans when using a Super Heavy Tank with such a gratuitous amount of firepower? All I can think of is perhaps using Cloudstrike to shield it from a turn 1 beating, and it would obviously be a hilarious candidate for the Forewarned stratagem, with the ability to pretty much auto-delete an enemy deepstriker of your choice when next to a Farseer. As far as I can tell it meets the keyword requisites to use these stratagems at least.


At a glance: Guide, Doom, Jinx, and Phatasm all seem decent things to get more out of the tank.

Guide to make sure those high cost shots land, especially if it is alpha struck but not killed.

Doom because... it is probably the best spell in Runes of Fate... poke a unit, press delete key.

Jinx will help to soften irritating invulnerable saves.

You can also split Doom and Jinx to give the super heavy two targets to split fire.

Phantasm allows you to deploy in X configuration, and then decide to move your Farseer + Super Heavy tank close together to leverage Forewarned to counter deep striking units that can threaten the Scorpion.

I'm pretty sure Forewarned allows any Asuryani unit within 6" of the Farseer to fire. Phantasm allows up to whatever number of Asuryani to redeploy after setup. Unfortunately, the buffing side of Runes of Battle seem largely restricted to Infantry/Biker units, meaning you'll have to leverage the debuffing side to get some mileage out of Warlocks.


Don't think the Scorpion can split fire. It's one weapon with 4d6 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote:
Image:

Spoiler:


So this would mean that you could always choose to use the index datasheet with the codex points values even when the codex overrides an entry in the index (as the Autarch does). Even if the codex has an updated entry, you can opt to use the index version instead. So, going by that logic, if you don't like the recent change to Commissars, you can just use the index datasheet instead. If, in the future, you dislike how they changed a unit, you can use the index version instead.


That's not what this says, even if it is correct. Commissar can use index gear, but not index rules.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 01:03:10


Post by: Shadenuat


Dionysodorus wrote:
It gets pretty silly when you consider the Exarch too. A 95 point 3-man squad that shoots and charges naked tactical Marines expects to kill 94% of its points. It expects to do 9.3 wounds to a T7 3+ vehicle or monster (which are typically paying 10 ppw minimum).

And they cost like, whole 3 points more than scatbikes per model. It's idiotic, I don't understand this.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 01:10:05


Post by: xmbk


popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 01:49:33


Post by: mmimzie


 Shadenuat wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
It gets pretty silly when you consider the Exarch too. A 95 point 3-man squad that shoots and charges naked tactical Marines expects to kill 94% of its points. It expects to do 9.3 wounds to a T7 3+ vehicle or monster (which are typically paying 10 ppw minimum).

And they cost like, whole 3 points more than scatbikes per model. It's idiotic, I don't understand this.


Definitly agree, got to get in a small game and the spears rock it up!! The scat laser should be something like maybe 7 or 8 points each. Can't really make the wind rider cheaper as the wind rider is basicly 2 dire avengers but faster, tougher, and with fly. So what do you do?/?

What do you guys think of vypers. I kind of want to pick up a set of three this way i can use that 20" move to get an early charge or to soak up overwatch for the shining spear bomb, or one of my small shining spear squads.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 02:44:29


Post by: Fafnir


xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 04:55:16


Post by: Niiru


++++ Another Tactica Update+++

As always, these things got more complicated than expected. I solved the problem, but it's now very very late so I can't finish the job. So half the site is going to be offline for 24 hours. Apologies.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 10:06:06


Post by: xmbk


 Fafnir wrote:
xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Nothing, other than listing him as one in the points section. I do not think nothing means what you think it means.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 10:17:38


Post by: Fafnir


xmbk wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Nothing, other than listing him as one in the points section. I do not think nothing means what you think it means.


Look at the codex. What does the heading in the points section where he's listed say?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 11:19:02


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior



I had an amusing idea which I believe is sound rules wise:

Deploy a shooty infantry unit using the Webway Strike stratagem, shoot with it, then use the fire and fade stratagem to embark on a Wave Serpent that has advanced up behind it.

I usually end my turn 1 with a Serpent full of Fire Dragons having gone full speed towards the enemy, for 2cp those fire Dragons can have already had a round of shooting. The serpent only needs to be within 10 inches (7 for fire and fade move + 3 embark distance) of the unit which should be quite easy after advancing.


I imagine it to be like Legolas jumping on the horse in LOTR, except with melta guns and grav tanks.





Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 13:16:54


Post by: Korlandril


An idea I like is having a 20 man guardian defender squad with two Shuriken Cannons webway striking in.

You can deepstrike them so they are all in range, into cover if it is available (2+ save on the heavy weapon platforms in cover). These guys can also take up a huge footprint. Blocking off part of the board, objective securing objectives if needed.

With Alaitoc providing you can wipe out anything within 12" you are a lot more durable. Also realistically your opponent can only get so many units within 12" so these are a real pain for your opponent to deal with. Using at the right time can really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For Autarchs if you are running as a warlord to get a roll for each CP you use you will want to deploy first before spending any CP on things like cloudstrike and webway assault. I think you won't be able to roll if you spend on things like extra relics? As these occur before deployment and the rule only works if he is on the table not in transport I believe


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 14:04:11


Post by: Shadenuat


mmimzie wrote:
What do you guys think of vypers.

I think they're better alternative to windriders too. The price gap between vyper with 2 shuriken cannons and 2 windriders with same is just too small to validate using regular bikes.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 14:35:19


Post by: Wyldcarde


Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

I had an amusing idea which I believe is sound rules wise:

Deploy a shooty infantry unit using the Webway Strike stratagem, shoot with it, then use the fire and fade stratagem to embark on a Wave Serpent that has advanced up behind it.

I usually end my turn 1 with a Serpent full of Fire Dragons having gone full speed towards the enemy, for 2cp those fire Dragons can have already had a round of shooting. The serpent only needs to be within 10 inches (7 for fire and fade move + 3 embark distance) of the unit which should be quite easy after advancing.


I imagine it to be like Legolas jumping on the horse in LOTR, except with melta guns and grav tanks.



Even better. Can use it with ynnari dark reapers. Fire twice then fire and fade into the serpent to fire twice again. Pretty decent trick.
Also looking at the possibility of just deploying them on the board and fire and fading into the wave serpent, or if you go second phantasm to redeploy them into the wave serpent.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 14:55:43


Post by: Xenomancers


 Korlandril wrote:
An idea I like is having a 20 man guardian defender squad with two Shuriken Cannons webway striking in.

You can deepstrike them so they are all in range, into cover if it is available (2+ save on the heavy weapon platforms in cover). These guys can also take up a huge footprint. Blocking off part of the board, objective securing objectives if needed.

With Alaitoc providing you can wipe out anything within 12" you are a lot more durable. Also realistically your opponent can only get so many units within 12" so these are a real pain for your opponent to deal with. Using at the right time can really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For Autarchs if you are running as a warlord to get a roll for each CP you use you will want to deploy first before spending any CP on things like cloudstrike and webway assault. I think you won't be able to roll if you spend on things like extra relics? As these occur before deployment and the rule only works if he is on the table not in transport I believe

I don't see much value in cannons over catapults. Ether bright lance or star cannon makes the most sense. Or no weapons at all. Actually thinking about it - weapons platforms are the least effiecent place to put weapons because an 8 point gardian can't shoot - essentially that weapon is costing you +8 points to it's actual cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadenuat wrote:
mmimzie wrote:
What do you guys think of vypers.

I think they're better alternative to windriders too. The price gap between vyper with 2 shuriken cannons and 2 windriders with same is just too small to validate using regular bikes.

Vyper costs 70 wthi 2x SC
5 Swooping hawks costs64

I think these are our best fast attack options.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 15:31:39


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior




I think there's something to be said for bubble wrapping your opponent with webway strike guardians. Drop in 20 in a line 9" away from the enemies DZ and throw some defensive buffs on (conceal, fortune, protect + force field strat for 3++). your opponent can't move past unless they can fly. It would really mess up a rhino rush type list. it's only 140pts for 20 stomies.




Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 15:52:05


Post by: Niiru


xmbk wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Nothing, other than listing him as one in the points section. I do not think nothing means what you think it means.



You should check your codex. The points section lists him as a "Unit", not a named character.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 16:41:52


Post by: Taganoth


Niiru wrote:

You should check your codex. The points section lists him as a "Unit", not a named character.


That's a valid point. That section doesn't specify they are all named character. If anything, that section is all the units that their point cost INCLUDES wargear, that way they don't have to give arbitrary point costs to things like the Wailing Doom.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 17:28:36


Post by: Fictional


Wayniac wrote:
The argument I'm seeing is this weird "cherry pick" where you can take the Codex Autarch w/Wings, and then "transfer" the weapon options from the Index (e.g. Reaper Launcher) but pay the points listed in the Codex, kind of a hybrid.


The way I see most of it, just from basic interpretation of "you can use the index where a unit is not in the codex", boils down to what "a unit" means.

If the unit has an identically named entry in the codex, you can not use the index.

So, as example, you have Autarch, Autarch with Wings and Autarch with Jump Generator, the first 2 are in the Codex, so you are compelled to use the codex entry, the last one you use the Index for, but with Codex points costs.


Just my logical interpretation, excluding any FAQs, GW input on the matter or any other legitimately established interpretations and rules.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 17:37:56


Post by: Cream Tea


Fictional wrote:

The way I see most of it, just from basic interpretation of "you can use the index where a unit is not in the codex", boils down to what "a unit" means.

If the unit has an identically named entry in the codex, you can not use the index.

So, as example, you have Autarch, Autarch with Wings and Autarch with Jump Generator, the first 2 are in the Codex, so you are compelled to use the codex entry, the last one you use the Index for, but with Codex points costs.


Just my logical interpretation, excluding any FAQs, GW input on the matter or any other legitimately established interpretations and rules.


From https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/:

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

(emphasis mine)
They're clearly calling out not just datasheets that aren't in the codex, but wargear options and such too. However, they then go on to basically contradict themselves in the same article:
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 17:39:15


Post by: Galef


Fictional wrote:

The way I see most of it, just from basic interpretation of "you can use the index where a unit is not in the codex", boils down to what "a unit" means.

If the unit has an identically named entry in the codex, you can not use the index.

So, as example, you have Autarch, Autarch with Wings and Autarch with Jump Generator, the first 2 are in the Codex, so you are compelled to use the codex entry, the last one you use the Index for, but with Codex points costs.


Just my logical interpretation, excluding any FAQs, GW input on the matter or any other legitimately established interpretations and rules.

I agree with this. It also makes it easier to explain to non-Eldar players.

So if you want to use that Reaper-launcher kitted Autarch, it'd better be the Jump Generator one from the Index.
If you had a Winged or Skyrunner Autarch with Reaper Launcher, you either ignore it, or cut it off.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 17:42:05


Post by: Korlandril


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
An idea I like is having a 20 man guardian defender squad with two Shuriken Cannons webway striking in.

You can deepstrike them so they are all in range, into cover if it is available (2+ save on the heavy weapon platforms in cover). These guys can also take up a huge footprint. Blocking off part of the board, objective securing objectives if needed.

With Alaitoc providing you can wipe out anything within 12" you are a lot more durable. Also realistically your opponent can only get so many units within 12" so these are a real pain for your opponent to deal with. Using at the right time can really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent

I don't see much value in cannons over catapults. Ether bright lance or star cannon makes the most sense. Or no weapons at all. Actually thinking about it - weapons platforms are the least effiecent place to put weapons because an 8 point gardian can't shoot - essentially that weapon is costing you +8 points to it's actual cost.


The value in Cannons is you can shoot them after deepstriking with no penalty and they are the cheapest. The idea of them is to massively boost the guardians defence because they are 3+ and 2+ if in cover. This means your opponent has to waste higher AP weaponary or more lower ap on them. So you are wrong they are not a waste as they are a way of increasing the survivability of the squad.

Bright lances would be a waste as only two shots and they are quite expensive and hitting on 4+ on turn they deepstrike. Star Cannons might be a good choice as they are only adding 10 pts to the unit in question but again suffer from -1 to hit and you want to be soaking up wounds with them not relying on them for hitting power.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 18:26:54


Post by: Halfpast_Yellow


I can see value if you Guide them though. I like the potential of 20x2 Alaitoc Guardians + Farseer module.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 18:35:50


Post by: Xenomancers


 Korlandril wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
An idea I like is having a 20 man guardian defender squad with two Shuriken Cannons webway striking in.

You can deepstrike them so they are all in range, into cover if it is available (2+ save on the heavy weapon platforms in cover). These guys can also take up a huge footprint. Blocking off part of the board, objective securing objectives if needed.

With Alaitoc providing you can wipe out anything within 12" you are a lot more durable. Also realistically your opponent can only get so many units within 12" so these are a real pain for your opponent to deal with. Using at the right time can really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent

I don't see much value in cannons over catapults. Ether bright lance or star cannon makes the most sense. Or no weapons at all. Actually thinking about it - weapons platforms are the least effiecent place to put weapons because an 8 point gardian can't shoot - essentially that weapon is costing you +8 points to it's actual cost.


The value in Cannons is you can shoot them after deepstriking with no penalty and they are the cheapest. The idea of them is to massively boost the guardians defence because they are 3+ and 2+ if in cover. This means your opponent has to waste higher AP weaponary or more lower ap on them. So you are wrong they are not a waste as they are a way of increasing the survivability of the squad.

Bright lances would be a waste as only two shots and they are quite expensive and hitting on 4+ on turn they deepstrike. Star Cannons might be a good choice as they are only adding 10 pts to the unit in question but again suffer from -1 to hit and you want to be soaking up wounds with them not relying on them for hitting power.
Not a bad idea actually. Didn't think about them defensively because I naturally assume you will keep them alive to shoot more. It makes the 4++ strategem even more effective because if you also hit the unit with protect. You will have a 2+ save to absorb the mass firepower and a 3++ save for everything else. Guardians are so freaking awesome now.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 18:48:52


Post by: Spartacus


 Galef wrote:
Fictional wrote:

The way I see most of it, just from basic interpretation of "you can use the index where a unit is not in the codex", boils down to what "a unit" means.

If the unit has an identically named entry in the codex, you can not use the index.

So, as example, you have Autarch, Autarch with Wings and Autarch with Jump Generator, the first 2 are in the Codex, so you are compelled to use the codex entry, the last one you use the Index for, but with Codex points costs.


Just my logical interpretation, excluding any FAQs, GW input on the matter or any other legitimately established interpretations and rules.

I agree with this. It also makes it easier to explain to non-Eldar players.

So if you want to use that Reaper-launcher kitted Autarch, it'd better be the Jump Generator one from the Index.
If you had a Winged or Skyrunner Autarch with Reaper Launcher, you either ignore it, or cut it off.

-


This is not the intention of GWs comments though, nor a correct interpretation of what they achieve. They use the example of a SM dreadnaught with autocannons as a unit which lost options in the recent codex. There is only one entry for a normal dreadnaught so if you want the autocannons you have to take the index entry.

A few years ago I bought an Autarch with Hawk wings, a reaper launcher and a power sword. GWs comments allow me to take the datasheet from the index, as the one in the codex does not have these options, just like in the case of the dreadnaught.

GW is making a very thoughful move here by protecting its paying customers fron having their previously purchased models invalidated by new rules. I for one appreciate it very much.

The perceived exploits/balance issues are 2nd priority to this in my opinion, and should be fixed by actually fixing the rules, not restricting players from using their lovingly built and painted models.

And whatever issues the autarch cause seem pretty minor compared to already existing balance problems with 8th


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 18:50:34


Post by: Niiru


+++++ Website Update +++++

And we are back! And much improved!

At least I think so. The new layout and design for the unit sections are better. Little nicer looking.

Work is continuing on summaries, loadouts and tactics.

Also could use some help with a colour scheme and finding a decent header/title image haha.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 19:27:43


Post by: Korlandril


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
An idea I like is having a 20 man guardian defender squad with two Shuriken Cannons webway striking in.

You can deepstrike them so they are all in range, into cover if it is available (2+ save on the heavy weapon platforms in cover). These guys can also take up a huge footprint. Blocking off part of the board, objective securing objectives if needed.

With Alaitoc providing you can wipe out anything within 12" you are a lot more durable. Also realistically your opponent can only get so many units within 12" so these are a real pain for your opponent to deal with. Using at the right time can really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent

I don't see much value in cannons over catapults. Ether bright lance or star cannon makes the most sense. Or no weapons at all. Actually thinking about it - weapons platforms are the least effiecent place to put weapons because an 8 point gardian can't shoot - essentially that weapon is costing you +8 points to it's actual cost.


The value in Cannons is you can shoot them after deepstriking with no penalty and they are the cheapest. The idea of them is to massively boost the guardians defence because they are 3+ and 2+ if in cover. This means your opponent has to waste higher AP weaponary or more lower ap on them. So you are wrong they are not a waste as they are a way of increasing the survivability of the squad.

Bright lances would be a waste as only two shots and they are quite expensive and hitting on 4+ on turn they deepstrike. Star Cannons might be a good choice as they are only adding 10 pts to the unit in question but again suffer from -1 to hit and you want to be soaking up wounds with them not relying on them for hitting power.
Not a bad idea actually. Didn't think about them defensively because I naturally assume you will keep them alive to shoot more. It makes the 4++ strategem even more effective because if you also hit the unit with protect. You will have a 2+ save to absorb the mass firepower and a 3++ save for everything else. Guardians are so freaking awesome now.


Didn't even consider protect, that's an insane combo, even without the strat once they get through the weapon platforms guardians are 4+ and in cover 3+.

I often see comments that Warlocks are over costed or not worth it but their powers are fantastic for getting these great combinations going.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 19:31:43


Post by: DarknessEternal


You really want to protect your 8 point models by killing a 15 point model?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 19:39:26


Post by: Galef


 DarknessEternal wrote:
You really want to protect your 8 point models by killing a 15 point model?

They idea is that by having a better armour save, you might stop several wounds getting through by making saves that the 8pt models would not be able to make.
I don't think it's a particularly effective tactic at all, but I suppose it gives some people peace of mind. I'd rather just buy 2 more Guardians

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 19:40:55


Post by: Korlandril


 DarknessEternal wrote:
You really want to protect your 8 point models by killing a 15 point model?


Yep when it's 7.5ppw and has a 3+ save it's well worth it. Trust me I have used it to great success


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
You really want to protect your 8 point models by killing a 15 point model?

They idea is that by having a better armour save, you might stop several wounds getting through by making saves that the 8pt models would not be able to make.
I don't think it's a particularly effective tactic at all, but I suppose it gives some people peace of mind. I'd rather just buy 2 more Guardians

-


It is an effective tactic, two more guardians is 1 point more expensive and both have a 5+ save.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 19:43:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galef wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
You really want to protect your 8 point models by killing a 15 point model?

They idea is that by having a better armour save, you might stop several wounds getting through by making saves that the 8pt models would not be able to make.
I don't think it's a particularly effective tactic at all, but I suppose it gives some people peace of mind. I'd rather just buy 2 more Guardians

-

20 gardians max though. Plus command point spent on getting them into action first turn. They have to kill the gardians - they are just too dangerous at that range so if I can make it 2-3 times hard to kill them - it protects my other stuff.

I'm going to be playing Ulthwe because that's how my army is painted so - I even get a 6++ on top of that. Plus I should be getting some command points back. Might even be able to keep that cycle going if I get lucky.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 20:02:03


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Looking for some feedback on these lists, as I am an Eldar noob.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 20:21:27


Post by: mmimzie


Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
I can see value if you Guide them though. I like the potential of 20x2 Alaitoc Guardians + Farseer module.


Think i'd rather 1 ulthwe squad with webway strike and Ulthwe strategem. That's some very cost effective damage.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 21:52:33


Post by: Halfpast_Yellow


mmimzie wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
I can see value if you Guide them though. I like the potential of 20x2 Alaitoc Guardians + Farseer module.


Think i'd rather 1 ulthwe squad with webway strike and Ulthwe strategem. That's some very cost effective damage.


Yeah Ulthwe is definitely the best for fire and forget. The only thing that really sucks is the morale issue.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 22:12:47


Post by: Karhedron


 Xenomancers wrote:

Vyper costs 70 wthi 2x SC
5 Swooping hawks costs64

I think these are our best fast attack options.

I have squadron of 3 dual Shuricannon Vypers I converted so long ago the cannons are the old metal jetbike versions (that was some hack-job ). Nice to know they seem to be worth using now.

For giggles, I compared one to a Primaris Inceptor which is only 10 points less. Both get 6 shots and are Flyers. Inceptor shoots at S5 AP-1, Vyper shoots at S6 Ap- but 6s to wound become AP-3 so Vypers have a slight edge. Durability is where is gets crazy though as both units have T5 and a 3+ save but the Vyper gets 6 wounds to the Inceptor's 2. Vypers also have 24" range to the Inceptor's 18". Vypers are looking quite tidy!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 22:24:38


Post by: xmbk


Niiru wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Nothing, other than listing him as one in the points section. I do not think nothing means what you think it means.



You should check your codex. The points section lists him as a "Unit", not a named character.


Et tu, Niiru?

He's listed with all the SC. What is he missing that all the other named chars have? Is Asurmen exempt because he also is missing a Craftworld keyword?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 22:39:46


Post by: Niiru


xmbk wrote:
Niiru wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
xmbk wrote:
popisdead wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.


That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.


Why the heck not? It literally identifies him as a special character. Barring a FAQ, that's the preponderance of evidence.


There is nothing in the book that defines what a 'named character' (save Prince Yriel), and nothing in the book that specifies the Avatar as one. Moreover, GW's own marketing people have been promoting the Avatar as such (which, not being an official source for rules, means nothing from a rules standpoint, but does emphasize the ambiguities in those rules).

You can have one Avatar in your army. That is the only restriction currently placed upon him by RAW.


Nothing, other than listing him as one in the points section. I do not think nothing means what you think it means.



You should check your codex. The points section lists him as a "Unit", not a named character.


Et tu, Niiru?

He's listed with all the SC. What is he missing that all the other named chars have? Is Asurmen exempt because he also is missing a Craftworld keyword?



Well, what he's missing is a name. That is just a list of units that come with their wargear prices included. While I totally agree that it's a list of Unique Characters, it's not a list of Named Characters.

I'm not saying that GW intends the Avatar to be able to use relics etc, there really is no way to know. Their design, marketing and community teams all seem to be saying that the Avatar can take certain relics, but the rules are weirdly unclear on the matter.

In other codices, that characters list is actually titled "named characters", which would have been nice to have for Eldar if they were going to put in a rule denying named characters certain upgrades.

I expect this to be FAQ'd soon.

So yeh, just to reiterate - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you in how the rule is INTENDED. It's just not the way it's written.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 22:59:31


Post by: Dionysodorus


I think Vypers still suffer a lot from "why wouldn't you just take a Wave Serpent?" Instead of 2 Vypers you could take 1 slightly cheaper Serpent, with 75% of the firepower and like a million times the durability. Vypers are prime targets for multi-damage weapons and I feel like they're going to get blown up pretty quickly in most games.

In my games so far, Swooping Hawks have struck me as almost good but not quite there. They're not great anti-horde, which is what you'd think they're for given their guns -- the firepower of a single FRFSRF lasgun at 12" is just not that impressive (look at what basic Elysian infantry can put out if they deep strike with an officer). They're also pretty fragile for their cost, though at least they can always be in cover. They're weirdly good against MEQs because of their grenades, but it's not like Eldar need help killing MEQs. So basically in most games they're only really useful for holding objectives, but Rangers do this better, being more durable with probably overall-better shooting. Hawks aren't even that mobile relative to other Eldar units; Skyleap doesn't even help much here since a bike unit could have moved 44" in those same two turns without giving up any shooting. They really need to be cheaper or to pack more anti-GEQ punch.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 23:17:18


Post by: Niiru


Dionysodorus wrote:
I think Vypers still suffer a lot from "why wouldn't you just take a Wave Serpent?" Instead of 2 Vypers you could take 1 slightly cheaper Serpent, with 75% of the firepower and like a million times the durability. Vypers are prime targets for multi-damage weapons and I feel like they're going to get blown up pretty quickly in most games.

In my games so far, Swooping Hawks have struck me as almost good but not quite there. They're not great anti-horde, which is what you'd think they're for given their guns -- the firepower of a single FRFSRF lasgun at 12" is just not that impressive (look at what basic Elysian infantry can put out if they deep strike with an officer). They're also pretty fragile for their cost, though at least they can always be in cover. They're weirdly good against MEQs because of their grenades, but it's not like Eldar need help killing MEQs. So basically in most games they're only really useful for holding objectives, but Rangers do this better, being more durable with probably overall-better shooting. Hawks aren't even that mobile relative to other Eldar units; Skyleap doesn't even help much here since a bike unit could have moved 44" in those same two turns without giving up any shooting. They really need to be cheaper or to pack more anti-GEQ punch.



I have to say, I've been wondering a similar thing, except I wonder why you'd take Vypers when you could take War Walkers. Usually if you want two big weapons on a platform, you don't really want/need it to be moving 16" a turn. There's no armour facings anymore, so jetting around to hit side/rear armour is pointless. And all the Eldar heavy weapons shoot across the board, so you don't need to get close.

I don't see the point of the outflank ability for war walkers either tbh.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/10/31 23:17:33


Post by: ryzouken


You generally take Vypers because you’re looking to fill out a brigade or because you want mobile heavy weapons (for opening up firing angles and threading terrain) with the biker keyword to benefit from the samm hain craftworlder trait. Or because you have 70 points laying around and already filled your heavy support slots with other things.

They’re not your first choice, nor maybe your second, but they do have niches in which they shine.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 01:03:31


Post by: Shadenuat


Niiru wrote:
I have to say, I've been wondering a similar thing, except I wonder why you'd take Vypers when you could take War Walkers

Vypers Soulburst and can be buffed with any psychic power from runes of Battle.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 01:38:01


Post by: Niiru


 Shadenuat wrote:
Niiru wrote:
I have to say, I've been wondering a similar thing, except I wonder why you'd take Vypers when you could take War Walkers

Vypers Soulburst and can be buffed with any psychic power from runes of Battle.


Ahhh well ok, that's true, though it only became true with the Codex (I think) haha.


I do prefer the Vyper model, so this might make me take them if I find a good use for the psychic powers or soulburst. Though I think this would only be worthwhile if you took a single squadron of 3, rather than 3 separate bikes.



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Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 02:09:32


Post by: mmimzie


Dionysodorus wrote:I think Vypers still suffer a lot from "why wouldn't you just take a Wave Serpent?" Instead of 2 Vypers you could take 1 slightly cheaper Serpent, with 75% of the firepower and like a million times the durability. Vypers are prime targets for multi-damage weapons and I feel like they're going to get blown up pretty quickly in most games.

In my games so far, Swooping Hawks have struck me as almost good but not quite there. They're not great anti-horde, which is what you'd think they're for given their guns --.


So we most of the eldar's current forces for low anti infantry damage. For example when you have swooping hawks and dire avengers both attacking GEQ or MEQ models you get the same average damage per point. The different being that dire avengers are troops, and swooping hawks are exceedingly mobile. Though this is pretty much the same with all of eldar, and the only models that really get high marks on thier GEQ kills would be the standard guardian squad. The only way in my mind to combat this within eldar is to bring a hemlock and use taht to really help you cash in on those kills in the morale phase.

here's the math to compare: Vs GEQ (all 5man with exarch)
Dire avengers 64pt squad kills 4 GEQ .0625 wounds/pts
Swooping hawks 68pt squad kills 4.7 .0697 wounds/pts (didn't count the grenade but would be .83 more kills and would push them quite away over)


Compared to each other they come out close enough to be the same in my opinion as the biel-tan reroll ones attribute can put dire avengers over the hawks.. Both are even closer when you compare them to MEQ, i don't care to do the math again though x.x. Now lets look at defenders

20man defender squad 160pts 13 wounds which is .0833 wounds/pts

So as we can see putting down swooping hawks over dire avengers i think is kind of silly. To make this comparison.

Looking at and infantry squad with FRFSRF (factoring in half the cost of a company commander because you need them too).

10infantry +1/2 company commander 55 points thats 6.66 GEQ wounds or .121pts/wound

Which is waaay better than anything eldar can do. However with the hemlock bubble i think you can make the up. i think the hemlock is already worth it's points as an anti tank weapon:

Hemlock VS fire prism w/shurican cannon ( target a Russ)
Hemlock 200pts 5.33 wounds .02666 wound/pts
Fire prism stationary 165 3.5 wounds .0212

I take this again to be pretty darn close to a tie as the hemlock can cast smite, and has the speed to cuddle a tank while the fire prism can expend CP and have some friends to use linked fire.So it's a pretty decent anti tank model, but it also provvides a needed -2LD bubble that can convert your 4-5 wounds from your swooping hawks and dire avengers into failed morale checks. Assuming your infantry target is supported by a commissar that's LD7 (you gotta get the commissar in the bubble, which isn't to tough to do). Than every time your dire avengers attack that's an average of 1 more wound (in fact it's 1.75 with the new nerf as if you make the infantry squad fail even on a 4, than a guy gets shot and they have to roll again potentially losing more models, i put this is brackets because i'm not sure how the commissar change maths out, and don't care to figure it out lol). So, the bfuf really carries when you ahve multiple dire avenger and swooping hawk units shooting allowing you to mop up units. Still eldar is a bit bad at horde killing and it's more about picking everything else off, and then using the hemlock to covert your not horde killing units into something close to horde killing units.

The other GEQ problem is most of our buffs don't really help kill infantry squads quickly. Guide you can only hit so much stuff, again the best targets for this are 20 man storm guardian squads, but we only get 1 guide, and will that guardian unit be in range to shoot 2 full infantry squads??? eh. Doom is also useless here as you spending a lot of resources on a 40 man squad.

TLDR: hawks & avengers about the same MEQ/GEQ damage. Storm Guardians kill GEQ the best. Eldar suck at killing GEQ. Bring a Hemlock because with out buffs it better than a fire prism, and it helps counter the anti horde weakness.

Niiru wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
I think Vypers still suffer a lot from "why wouldn't you just take a Wave Serpent?" Instead of 2 Vypers you could take 1 slightly cheaper Serpent, with 75% of the firepower and like a million times the durability. Vypers are prime targets for multi-damage weapons and I feel like they're going to get blown up pretty quickly in most games.

In my games so far, Swooping Hawks have struck me as almost good but not quite there. They're not great anti-horde, which is what you'd think they're for given their guns -- the firepower of a single FRFSRF lasgun at 12" is just not that impressive (look at what basic Elysian infantry can put out if they deep strike with an officer). They're also pretty fragile for their cost, though at least they can always be in cover. They're weirdly good against MEQs because of their grenades, but it's not like Eldar need help killing MEQs. So basically in most games they're only really useful for holding objectives, but Rangers do this better, being more durable with probably overall-better shooting. Hawks aren't even that mobile relative to other Eldar units; Skyleap doesn't even help much here since a bike unit could have moved 44" in those same two turns without giving up any shooting. They really need to be cheaper or to pack more anti-GEQ punch.



I have to say, I've been wondering a similar thing, except I wonder why you'd take Vypers when you could take War Walkers. Usually if you want two big weapons on a platform, you don't really want/need it to be moving 16" a turn. There's no armour facings anymore, so jetting around to hit side/rear armour is pointless. And all the Eldar heavy weapons shoot across the board, so you don't need to get close.

I don't see the point of the outflank ability for war walkers either tbh.



The only purpose for vypers in my book is to get early charges with 3 man units of vypers to eat up over watch for some other turn 1 charging unit. While the vypers at the same time are still providing okayish damage.

War walkers though are some of the best Anti-tank weapons we have.(2blances) .0333 russ wounds/pts for each walker nice stuff. I honestly wouldn't equip them with anythign else and i also wouldn't out flank them to and get -1 to hit for no reason.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 02:15:36


Post by: RuneGrey


So interesting question. The Pathfinders stratagem stipulates that rangers can only be hit on a roll of 6, regardless of other modifiers.

As this basically spells out the roll required for a hit, does this take precedence over the flamer 'this weapon always hits' rule? If it modified the roll to a BS 6+ I can see the flamer rule overriding it, because despite the ballistic skill requiring the higher number, the flamer will always hit, but there feels like there is some grey area when you have a second overriding the base rules.

After all 'this weapon always hits' can in itself be seen as a modifier. Probably something for the FAQ.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 02:22:17


Post by: Cream Tea


 RuneGrey wrote:
So interesting question. The Pathfinders stratagem stipulates that rangers can only be hit on a roll of 6, regardless of other modifiers.

As this basically spells out the roll required for a hit, does this take precedence over the flamer 'this weapon always hits' rule? If it modified the roll to a BS 6+ I can see the flamer rule overriding it, because despite the ballistic skill requiring the higher number, the flamer will always hit, but there feels like there is some grey area when you have a second overriding the base rules.

After all 'this weapon always hits' can in itself be seen as a modifier. Probably something for the FAQ.

There's already an analogous situation with auto-hit weapons and Overwatch. Auto-hit trumps these rules.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 02:22:30


Post by: mmimzie


 RuneGrey wrote:
So interesting question. The Pathfinders stratagem stipulates that rangers can only be hit on a roll of 6, regardless of other modifiers.

As this basically spells out the roll required for a hit, does this take precedence over the flamer 'this weapon always hits' rule? If it modified the roll to a BS 6+ I can see the flamer rule overriding it, because despite the ballistic skill requiring the higher number, the flamer will always hit, but there feels like there is some grey area when you have a second overriding the base rules.

After all 'this weapon always hits' can in itself be seen as a modifier. Probably something for the FAQ.


No because flamers auto hit in overwatch and the same wording of "reguarless of any modifiers" is used.


Creamtea you scooped me haha


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 02:29:23


Post by: RuneGrey


Cool, good to know then!

As for the earlier comment, one improvement I was glad to see was Swooping Hawks becoming Assault 4 as opposed to Rapid Fire 2. Being able to shoot at extended ranges (and the pulling back out of retaliation range for 24" weapons) is a nice bonus for them, although their damage is still a little anemic. Still, the 40 shots you get out of 10 models should put at least some pressure on a few targets.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 03:18:01


Post by: barlw


I've run the aforementioned webway strike 20 Guardian blob with 2x shuriken cannons in 2 games so far and it is incredible. A farseer skyrunner with guide and doom zooms up to support the guardians and whatever they sneeze at usually dies.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:05:26


Post by: Korlandril


barlw wrote:I've run the aforementioned webway strike 20 Guardian blob with 2x shuriken cannons in 2 games so far and it is incredible. A farseer skyrunner with guide and doom zooms up to support the guardians and whatever they sneeze at usually dies.


What craftworld do you run? Also have you been using any psychic buffs to protect your guardians? And have your opponents managed to deal with them?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:07:40


Post by: Wyldcarde


Has anyone had any results running alaitoc dark reapers? With the inbuilt alaitoc -1 to hit plus conceal they seem like they will be relatively survivable. Can even throw on the extra -1 to hit strategem if needed. But is the extra survivability enough to keep them around for longer than a turn and two, worth losing strength from death for?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:15:27


Post by: wuestenfux


 Korlandril wrote:
barlw wrote:I've run the aforementioned webway strike 20 Guardian blob with 2x shuriken cannons in 2 games so far and it is incredible. A farseer skyrunner with guide and doom zooms up to support the guardians and whatever they sneeze at usually dies.


What craftworld do you run? Also have you been using any psychic buffs to protect your guardians? And have your opponents managed to deal with them?

Unless you bolster the Guardians, they are a one-hit wonder. Moreover they need to pick their target well.
I hesitate using them in this role.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:22:59


Post by: Khaine


I can't justify spending points on troops beyond the minimum required for Battalion/Brigade detachments, and 20 Guardians is only one slot. Our troops are not as terrible as they used to be, but when we've got such strong Elites/Heavy Support/Flyers, 5-man Ranger & Dire Avenger squads for 60/64 pts seem to me the way to go.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:37:21


Post by: FarseerReborn


So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 08:39:54


Post by: mmimzie


wuestenfux wrote:
 Korlandril wrote:
barlw wrote:I've run the aforementioned webway strike 20 Guardian blob with 2x shuriken cannons in 2 games so far and it is incredible. A farseer skyrunner with guide and doom zooms up to support the guardians and whatever they sneeze at usually dies.


What craftworld do you run? Also have you been using any psychic buffs to protect your guardians? And have your opponents managed to deal with them?

Unless you bolster the Guardians, they are a one-hit wonder. Moreover they need to pick their target well.
I hesitate using them in this role.


Khaine wrote:I can't justify spending points on troops beyond the minimum required for Battalion/Brigade detachments, and 20 Guardians is only one slot. Our troops are not as terrible as they used to be, but when we've got such strong Elites/Heavy Support/Flyers, 5-man Ranger & Dire Avenger squads for 60/64 pts seem to me the way to go.



honestly the 20man guardian squad isn't so bad. Remember fire and fade exist in our book allowing you to get into range and back up further than most other enemy unit's normally can move. This puts you well out of flamer range and also out of rapid fire range of most weapon's if you deploy and use this right. Also i'd argue to make a competitive list these days it is important your just as good at punching up at hordes or high T multi wound stuff. Elite middle of the road models usually can die as bi-product of either.

I am of the line of thinking that it's either you take the hemlock to allow your heavies/elites to convert better when punch multiple horde units thanks to our exarch spamming practices. Or, you bring the one guardian squad and invest the 1 command point in web way striking them, and maybe a second to fire and fade to protect them if you want them to be a longer term unit. Otherwise, i think you're definitely gonna struggle.

That said it is just one unit and even in ulthwe it can only go so far. So i can see how it would definitely feel like ti's just a drop in the bucket.

Edit:
FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)


Best bets are a hemlock to bolster your anti GEQ killing power. Nids are harder because they are immune to morale, and i highly suspect for a ltitle while termagants are gonna be the next conscripts if they get a points drop. Right now with jsut a 6+ save that are managable and aren't the level of bullet sponge that guard concripts of infantry squads are.

Scoprions are by far our best GEQ unit for straight up wounds, and termagaunt die a twice the rate to most weapons. The corps are also the least realistic. Getting one squad to hit in bial-tan without avatar is a 58% chance assuming no scouts. Plus these in my opinion really require biel-tan

Then we have guardian defenders who are already second best, but who can do signigantly more in ulthwe with strategem, can get in position with web way, get out of the way with fire and faid

Then swooping hawks who come slightly ahead of dire avengers and windriders with shurikan catapults.

All of the above do better with autarch, and shurikans better in biel-tan.

Orcs can be dealt with by comboing up with the hemlock as they don't tend to leadership perect, as it's easier to turn off any morale ignoring mechanics they might have. unlike synapse that can be hidden in a unit on a brood lord.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 09:00:31


Post by: Fafnir


Shadow spectres seem pretty solid at dealing with hordes. Those diffuse-mode heavy flamers (Assault! Make good use of that Battle Focus!) are strapped to (hard to hit) jump packs for the mobility they need to get in for the job done where other units would waste them as footslogging fodder. The leadership modifier they provide (which stacks with the modifier they give when their Phoenix Lord is on the table) helps a bit as well (effectively 3d6 pick the highest).

Better yet, that sweet coherent-mode allows them to function as potent medium and heavy infantry blasters as well, making them a great swiss-army knife unit that can put in work in any TAC list.

They are pretty pricey for a unit of single-wound models, and even with their built in -1 to be hit (in shooting and close combat) their relatively short range means they'll be more vulnerable on the front line than your Dark Reapers would be shooting freely from the rear, but they should be able to give you solid results thanks to more forward pressure if you support them well.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 10:03:24


Post by: Dionysodorus


mmimzie wrote:

So we most of the eldar's current forces for low anti infantry damage. For example when you have swooping hawks and dire avengers both attacking GEQ or MEQ models you get the same average damage per point. The different being that dire avengers are troops, and swooping hawks are exceedingly mobile. Though this is pretty much the same with all of eldar, and the only models that really get high marks on thier GEQ kills would be the standard guardian squad. The only way in my mind to combat this within eldar is to bring a hemlock and use taht to really help you cash in on those kills in the morale phase.

here's the math to compare: Vs GEQ (all 5man with exarch)
Dire avengers 64pt squad kills 4 GEQ .0625 wounds/pts
Swooping hawks 68pt squad kills 4.7 .0697 wounds/pts (didn't count the grenade but would be .83 more kills and would push them quite away over)

Neither of these are very good, is my point. There are a bunch of things in Eldar that are better anti-horde. Dire Avengers are almost never the right Troops pick and Swooping Hawks are rarely the right FA pick.

You bring up Guardians, and these are pretty good. 20 in the Webway work well, but also just 10-man squads in Serpents, since Serpents themselves are quite good (they're not all that shooty but they're incredibly disruptive).

But even Dark Reapers do about as well against GEQs as Hawks, while being far better against everything else. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a very efficient gun and makes up for the regular reaper launcher's overkill.

Fafnir brings up Shadow Spectres, which do significantly better than Hawks against GEQs (while again being much better against everything else). Granted they have to be in flamer range to be good anti-horde. And they're comparably durable since they're typically going to have 2+ saves with a -1 to hit.

Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.

One unit you didn't mention but which I've been pushing on here for a few days now is Shining Spears. A Spear that shoots and charges GEQs does better for its cost than anything else mentioned so far. It's actually not close. They're 24% more efficient than Scorpions against GEQs and 15% more efficient than Spectres inside 8", it's generally pretty easy to get them into CC, and they're also ridiculously good against everything else.

I definitely agree that Hemlock help a lot. I had a game the other day where Hemlocks contributed an additional 2 casualties to each of about 6 squads that I'd softened up with other units.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 10:08:53


Post by: Drake003


I have been giving the Dark Reapers some serious revisiting following the Codex.

It’s a big choice between Alaitoc or Ynarri for them. On the one hand SfD is awesome, however, you are only likely to get 1 turn off with them as they are a lot more fragile than Alaitoc version. Over 2-3 turns of them surviving in Alaitoc, you should pull ahead is what I am thinking.

Consider the following:

Alaitoc -1, Conceal -1, Stratagem -1. That means anything less than a Marine cannot hit Alaitoc at all, and Marines are half as likely to hit Alaitoc Reapers than Ynarri Reapers. That extra -1 from Alaitoc makes a huge difference.

Factor in things like sticking them behind LOS terrain, moving out to shoot and then Fire and Fade back behind the LOS terrain (where available of course) you can really get a lot of mileage out of them, without any potential need to pull them forward to keep within WotP range from Yvraine ( which if they ever do survive past turn 3 can be a pull).

I really like SfD but on balance I feel the Alaitoc -1 to hit on everything is a real competition for army choice vs SfD on what is a limite number of units in your army that will really make any substantial gain from the rule.

SfD is without doubt very powerful, and I am torn between having mono Alaitoc vs Ynarri and Alaitoc mix, just struggling to get more than 4 units in my army that truly make most of SfD whilst still making Brigade for all the Stratagems I want to be able to use.

My thoughts and observations anyway so far


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 10:25:33


Post by: Bego


 Karhedron wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Vyper costs 70 wthi 2x SC
5 Swooping hawks costs64

I think these are our best fast attack options.

I have squadron of 3 dual Shuricannon Vypers I converted so long ago the cannons are the old metal jetbike versions (that was some hack-job ). Nice to know they seem to be worth using now.

For giggles, I compared one to a Primaris Inceptor which is only 10 points less. Both get 6 shots and are Flyers. Inceptor shoots at S5 AP-1, Vyper shoots at S6 Ap- but 6s to wound become AP-3 so Vypers have a slight edge. Durability is where is gets crazy though as both units have T5 and a 3+ save but the Vyper gets 6 wounds to the Inceptor's 2. Vypers also have 24" range to the Inceptor's 18". Vypers are looking quite tidy!


Playing very frequently with Vypers I feel they are used in a wrong way when just comparing their output/toughness vs others units.

They can fulfill so many different jobs beside their shooting capabilities. Shoot something and charge a heavy weapon team/vehicle to stop it from shooting next round/have it fallback/stop it’s movement for a round. Hide a character for a while (e.g. Farseer Skyrunner).

Their toughness, save and being flying (fallback and still shoot next round) puts them in a sweet spot where a lot of other units just can’t do the same without being punished afterwards. Windriders are too fragile, Serpents can copy parts of it but when still transporting units you might move them somewhere else instead of blocking the enemy. Also Serpents have a larger frame which can be a problem. Walkers will probably stop themself from shooting next round when they go fighting. Vypers are bikes! Thinking of Protect is just one example.

Playing them on one flank often they are surprisingly resilient and if your opponent starts assigning anti-tank/multiwound damage he’s not using it for other parts of your army.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 11:11:13


Post by: Drake003


How do you feel they compare against Swooping Hawks? Only 5 points difference to a 5 man Hawk squad. Hawks more shots but more fragile.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 11:11:13


Post by: wuestenfux


FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)

Against Orks you need to take first care of the trukks and the battle wagons. Destroy them and the Orks have to take a walk.
Against Nids, this is more involved. They have fast moving small bugs which need to be taken on with small arms fire, and larger bugs which are lacking behind.
Here you need to take on the hive minds first with high-strength multi-damage weapons. Lascannons are now more effective than they were before as they inflict D6 wounds and not just one.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 11:39:17


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Bego wrote:

Playing them on one flank often they are surprisingly resilient and if your opponent starts assigning anti-tank/multiwound damage he’s not using it for other parts of your army.

I don't understand why this is an advantage. Like, "I'm happy you're shooting X and not Y" makes sense only if shooting Y would actually be a better use of firepower. But Vypers are quite fragile for their firepower and cost compared to the things they're drawing fire from. Even a 70 point Vyper is paying 11.67 ppw, compared to a cheap Serpent at 10.3 or a Hemlock at 16.7. A BS3+ lascannon therefore expects to do ~15 points' worth of damage to a Vyper, compared to 10.2 for a Serpent and 13.5 for a Hemlock. War Walkers cost the same as a Vyper but get a 5++, so are more durable. Even scytheguard are more durable in the face of lascannon fire than Vypers. What this means is that instead of bringing Vypers to draw fire from your actually-more-durable other units, you should probably instead just bring more of the other units. The only plausible units that you're particularly happy to be drawing fire from on a cost basis would be Wraithlords/knights and Fire Prisms, and it's not like any of these are particularly great and Fire Prisms would generally be hiding way in the back anyway. Now, you might argue that even though Vypers are more fragile than your other units, the other units are also sufficiently more valuable on offense that you still want to draw fire from them. But this is actually just an argument that Vypers are bad -- it's an argument that Vypers are both more fragile and less shooty than other units.

This sort of argument is a good reason to bring durable stuff that threatens to be really annoying. Like Wave Serpents -- you either deal with the Serpent or get a bunch of your stuff tied up in CC the whole game. It's not a good reason to bring fragile stuff that your opponent wants to shoot anyway.

I'm not sure which Runes of Battle powers you'd particularly want to cast on Vypers. Conceal, I guess, to make up for their fragility, though of course the cheapest RoB psyker is a 35 point Warlock, so you're really cutting into their firepower efficiency (a Serpent is still much more durable for cost while now having almost as much firepower). Probably never Embolden, Enhance, or Empower. Quicken has some weird uses but it's mostly wasted on 24" guns. Protect doesn't make much sense since Vypers are primarily vulnerable to multi-damage weapons -- you're casting Protect to upgrade a 6+ save vs lascannon fire to a 5+.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 12:50:03


Post by: DivineVisitor


Can someone clarify something for me regarding the star hawk missile?

"Star hawk Missile Craftworlds Stratagem
Some Aeldari missile launchers are equipped with star hawk missiles, which are specifically designed to target enemy flyers. You can use this Stratagem just before an ASURYANI Infantry model from your army attacks a unit that can Fly with an Aeldari missile launchers. You only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase; however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds."

Now is this in addition to its normal shot or replacing it? For 1CP to deal 1-3 mortal wounds instead of firing at S8 -2 save D6 damage/D6 shots S4 -1 save 1 damage seems rather underwhelming.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 12:59:13


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 wuestenfux wrote:
FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)

Against Orks you need to take first care of the trukks and the battle wagons. Destroy them and the Orks have to take a walk.
Against Nids, this is more involved. They have fast moving small bugs which need to be taken on with small arms fire, and larger bugs which are lacking behind.
Here you need to take on the hive minds first with high-strength multi-damage weapons. Lascannons are now more effective than they were before as they inflict D6 wounds and not just one.


For dealing with hordes, would Saim Hann Scatterbikes be good? What is the go-to anti-horde tool for Eldar?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 13:06:46


Post by: Shadenuat


What would you guys feel be better against a regular tank with T7-8 and say 3+ save when crossing beams with 2 Prisms - the S9 or S12 shot? What if it has invul?

Also, what do you think about the difference in points cost and abilities of Spiritseer compared to Warlock?

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.

I don't feel like Craftworld bonuses make a lot of sense in general though. Ulthwe bonus would be more useful for Yanden (together with some +speed bonus maybe), -1 to hit for all BIKER and SKIMMER units would fit more and be more useful for Saim-Hann, the ignore penalty for heavy weapons for tanks and charge bonus would benefit more Biel Tan with 3 melee aspects we have, and so on.

Playing very frequently with Vypers I feel they are used in a wrong way when just comparing their output/toughness vs others units.

I think using them in a wedge with jetbike character with lance or mind war inside, with some durability bonus slapped on top is best you can do with them. You can use serpents in a similar fashion (I do all the time) but they need to spread out eventually to disembark and ram enemy shooty units without Fly. Drawing fire to Vypers makes little sense since they won't be most threating thing in the list. So it's just a fire support/screening unit. With Ynnari it can potentially be more dangerous tho, but I've yet to try that and see what kind of sacrifical lambs I can use to proc them and how tactically viable it would be.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 13:21:05


Post by: Wyldcarde


Drake003 wrote:
I have been giving the Dark Reapers some serious revisiting following the Codex.

It’s a big choice between Alaitoc or Ynarri for them. On the one hand SfD is awesome, however, you are only likely to get 1 turn off with them as they are a lot more fragile than Alaitoc version. Over 2-3 turns of them surviving in Alaitoc, you should pull ahead is what I am thinking.

Consider the following:

Alaitoc -1, Conceal -1, Stratagem -1. That means anything less than a Marine cannot hit Alaitoc at all, and Marines are half as likely to hit Alaitoc Reapers than Ynarri Reapers. That extra -1 from Alaitoc makes a huge difference.

Factor in things like sticking them behind LOS terrain, moving out to shoot and then Fire and Fade back behind the LOS terrain (where available of course) you can really get a lot of mileage out of them, without any potential need to pull them forward to keep within WotP range from Yvraine ( which if they ever do survive past turn 3 can be a pull).

I really like SfD but on balance I feel the Alaitoc -1 to hit on everything is a real competition for army choice vs SfD on what is a limite number of units in your army that will really make any substantial gain from the rule.

SfD is without doubt very powerful, and I am torn between having mono Alaitoc vs Ynarri and Alaitoc mix, just struggling to get more than 4 units in my army that truly make most of SfD whilst still making Brigade for all the Stratagems I want to be able to use.

My thoughts and observations anyway so far


Can always fire and fade the reapers back into their wave serpent as well. Provided they didn’t disembark that turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the fire prism I think the Str 9 shots would be better due to the potential of more shots. They still will be wounding on 3s but then the different damage dice balances it a bit.
Against fliers it might be closer where the T6 means 2s to wound. But even still more shots means a better chance of something getting through, rather than whiffing completely.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 13:34:30


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.


Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 13:35:32


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Shadenuat wrote:
What would you guys feel be better against a regular tank with T7-8 and say 3+ save when crossing beams with 2 Prisms - the S9 or S12 shot? What if it has invul?

Also, what do you think about the difference in points cost and abilities of Spiritseer compared to Warlock?

The S9 mode is better in that case. 2x D3 damage is slightly better than D6 damage, so in every case where they're wounding on the same number and there's no difference between AP-4 and AP-5, you want the S9 mode. S12 is better against T5 and T6 with lots of wounds (light vehicles) if you're not re-rolling wounds, but if you are then S9 is better. And then S12 is better against T9+, though if you're re-rolling wounds it's pretty close.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 14:06:26


Post by: Galef


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.


Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.

I'd add to this that Scatterbikes in general are the inferior choice, demanding that they be Saim-Hann just to be functional. Shuricannon bikes, otoh, do not need the Saim-hann attribute and are thus free to use the superior Alaitoc or Biel-tan attributes to great affect.

Remember that Scatter lasers were only good in 7th because they were versatile enough to target hordes and strip hull points. Even in 7th, the Shuricannon was better at taking on high T, decent save units, but because those targets were not common (and Bladestorm meant nothing due to cover saves), the Scatter laser was the clear choice. Since vehicles no longer have HPs and suddenly fall into the category of ideal target for Shuricannons, they become the clear choice.
Shuricannons are even better against hordes since even hordes get armour saves + cover now. So that occasional AP -3 (which now affects that cover save bonus) statistically makes Shuricannon about as effective as Scatter lasers against even horde units, maybe even moreso

Next we need to address the range difference. In 7th, being able to stay 36" away was great, especially since you could pop back behind LoS blocking terrain. In 8th, units can literally pop up outside 9" of you, so the difference between 24" and 36" range could mean literally nothing. Add to that Scatterbikes can only move 16" and shoot, while Shuricannon bikes can move 22" and shoot at full BS thanks to Battle focus and being Assault.
That makes the threat range 52" or 46". Only 6" of difference

I'm sorry for those of you that glued all those Scatter lasers to your Windriders, but you are handicapping yourself by thinking they are any way on the same level as Shuricannons.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 14:10:11


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


A few observations from my first game with the new book:

I took a Biel-Tan list with one of each aspect except Reapers and Crimson Hunters. 5 psykers, 3 Serpents and 2 Fire Prisms.

Fire Prisms are great. I took two and used the linked fire strat to drop the Swarmlord in one shooting phase. Always use the S9 version vs big things, maths wise it's sadly always better than the S12 shot.

The amount of buffs/debuffs we can stack is crazy.

A unit of banshees with quicken, empower, enhance, supreme disdain and doom shot across the board and did 17 wounds to a Trygon. 17!

I put doom, restrain and enervate on a unit of Stealers and screened them with 5 dire avengers. There were 8 left by my opponents turn, their reduced speed meant they could only charge the avengers who got to overwatch on 5+ (rerolling 1's for Biel-tan) and rerolling to wound. The Stealers failed to kill them.

A unit of Fire dragons got tied up in combat (which they survived thanks to protect) so I used feigned retreat to escape, then quicken to jog into range of their next target.

I don't know about it's power level but the book is so much fun to use!


Also:

In this list I made a Spirit seer my warlord and took the generic trait that allows him to reroll psy tests. I had another Spirit Seer with the Biel-Tan relic to also reroll tests. I gave them Protect/Jinx and Quicken/Restrain as these powers are so powerful but not easy to cast. I now find it very hard not to include this pair in all lists which necessitates a Biel-Tan deatchment.




Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 14:18:26


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Galef wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.


Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.

I'd add to this that Scatterbikes in general are the inferior choice, demanding that they be Saim-Hann just to be functional. Shuricannon bikes, otoh, do not need the Saim-hann attribute and are thus free to use the superior Alaitoc or Biel-tan attributes to great affect.

Remember that Scatter lasers were only good in 7th because they were versatile enough to target hordes and strip hull points. Even in 7th, the Shuricannon was better at taking on high T, decent save units, but because those targets were no common (and Bladestorm meant nothing due to cover saves), the Scatter laser was the clear choice. Since vehicles no longer have HPs and suddenly fall into the category of ideal target for Shuricannons, they become the clear choice.
Shuricannons are even better against hordes since even hordes get armour saves + cover now. So that occasional AP -3 (which now affects that cover save bonus) statistically makes Shuricannon about as effective as Scatter lasers against even horde units, maybe even moreso

Next we need to address the range difference. In 7th, being able to stay 36" away was great, especially since you could pop back behind LoS blocking terrain. In 8th, units can literally pop up outside 9" of you, so the difference between 24" and 36" range could mean literally nothing. Add to that Scatterbikes can only move 16" and shoot, while Shuricannon bikes can move 22" and shoot thanks to Battle focus.
That makes the threat range 52" or 46". Only 6" of difference

I'm sorry for those of you that glued all those Scatter lasers to your Windriders, but you are handicapping yourself by thinking they are any way on the same level as Shuricannons.

-


I don't even own an Eldar Jetbike. I'm not coming from 7th Ed. So really none of that applies to me! I did appreciate the parts where you explained why the Shuriken cannons are better. As I haven't played any 8th outside of AdMech, not everything Eldar is obvious at first glance.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 14:30:38


Post by: Galef


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I don't even own an Eldar Jetbike. I'm not coming from 7th Ed. So really none of that applies to me! I did appreciate the parts where you explained why the Shuriken cannons are better. As I haven't played any 8th outside of AdMech, not everything Eldar is obvious at first glance.

My apologies, no personal offense was intended. I may have responded to your post, but I was making a more general statement to the community. Sorry if it came off poorly.
I have a friend who is intent on running Scatterbikes because he got into Eldar in 7th ed, so I see the "but Scatterbikes!" argument come up often.
I am very pleased that the Shuricannon is the better choice now as they have always been my favorite weapon for Windriders, even when I strated playing back when they were called Guardian Jetbikes and could only take 1 Shuriicannon per 3 models.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 14:57:53


Post by: Shadenuat


They still kinda work when just set up the hell away from the enemy and shooting from '36, which is why I'd prefer them doing that and also not dying instead of moving (unless it's Mael) - which makes other bonuses but actual Saim-Hann one better.

I agree with lots what Galef said tho.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:09:59


Post by: Khaine


Honestly I'm leaning towards the idea that Shining Spears are just all round much more cost effective option than Windriders, epecially in Saim-Hann with that trait & stratagem. The fact that they are the same base cost despite the fact that Spears come with a 3+/4++, an extra attack, a point of ld and a free exarch is quite ridiculous.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:12:33


Post by: Shadenuat


They are. They were already one of hardest hitting units in the codex, grinding many things better than specialists due to twin catapults-lances-charge combo, and now they're probably the most One Punch aspect of Them All, while also being durable and only a fraction more expensive than regular bikes.

And now I finally don't need to survive "that one turn" when enemy shoots their whole army at them. Because Quicken. I wonder if I will even need those charge after advance things, probably not and Quicken will suffice.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:19:14


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Khaine wrote:
Honestly I'm leaning towards the idea that Shining Spears are just all round much more cost effective option than Windriders, epecially in Saim-Hann with that trait & stratagem. The fact that they are the same base cost despite the fact that Spears come with a 3+/4++, an extra attack, a point of ld and a free exarch is quite ridiculous.

Yes, Windriders are still way too expensive. Consider that Marines get Scout bikers for 25 points, which have a twin bolter instead of a twin catapult, and also get a 12" Assault 2 shotgun which is S5 inside 6". They're also S4, T5, Ld8, and get 2 attacks in CC (3 for the sergeant). And I've actually never seen anyone use them, which suggests they're not good enough.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:20:36


Post by: mmimzie


Dionysodorus wrote:

Neither of these are very good, is my point. There are a bunch of things in Eldar that are better anti-horde. Dire Avengers are almost never the right Troops pick and Swooping Hawks are rarely the right FA pick.




what.... it literally presented you with the math on the damage these models do <.< per point... what do you base any of this one??? I've done the math on the whole are, but look i'll math it out again, and give some more explanation to thought processes.

Dionysodorus wrote:


but also just 10-man squads in Serpents, since Serpents themselves are quite good (they're not all that shooty but they're incredibly disruptive).




no???

First this is soooooo slow. You do nothing on turn 1. You sit around in your wave serpent for a turn letting your opponent elysian drop troop or turn one cahrge you're stuff. Even if you don't want you're army to be alpha striked... you have to consider the amazing damage opponents can do to you turn 1. Also wave serpent good at anti tank?? here's the math on that idea...

Note i'm gonna give the wave serpent a twin catapult (twin catapult does more GEQ/MEQ and almsot more damage per point than surikan cannons and scatter laser all almsot all targets. Now range is thing, but again i'm doing best damage possible for the models). Also AML's are a joke weapon. if you think they do more GEQ damage than anything... maybe you should use a bright lance instead.... math for that later it's literally better for the points...

Wave serpent.... vs GEQ: no vehicle equipment used
W/ 2 twin shurikan catapults 117pts: 2.667 wounds .0228wounds/pt
W/ 2 shurican cannons 127: 2.44 wounds .0192 wounds/pt..... (this is just to show why i don't put shurican cannons on these math hammers, i know you can't take two)
W/ TSC & T.AML 162:3.277 wounds .0202 wound/pt (AMLs are the worst weapon to put on anything ever period end of story, your a sneeze away from just shooting the dudes with bright lances who i think would win if we were looking at MEQ lmao)
W/ TSC & T.Lance 152: 2.44 wounds .0161 wounds/.pt
W/ TSC & TSC 140: 3.555 wounds .0253 wound/pt

Now comparing to a squad of dire averenger that are never the right choice <.<
Dire avengers 64pt squad kills 4 GEQ .0625 wounds/pts interesting...

Dionysodorus wrote:



But even Dark Reapers do about as well against GEQs as Hawks, while being far better against everything else. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a very efficient gun and makes up for the regular reaper launcher's overkill.


What is the logic??? What do they do more than hawks????

Let's pretend we can spam repears exarchs with AML's without having to bring 2 more reapers

Exatrch w/ AML 30pts: 1.296 wounds .0432 wounds/pt

Well atleast we beat the waveserpent ^.^..... But the hawks...

swooping hawks 68pt squad kills 4.7 .0697 wounds/pts (with the grenade that's 5.53 wounds and .081 wound/pt)

The exarch didn't stand a chance. Plus we already can look at it it with out math to know it would be worse if we did the repear death launchers and counted thier points in as well. So lets not shame our boys in black too much.... Really AMLs such and are only good on the repear beacuse it's a 5 point model equipping a tank level weapon. However they'd do better if they could equip almsot anything else oh the exarch can equip anything else thank good need....

edit for more dark repear math
Spoiler:
Let's spam shurican cannon exarchs
15pts 1.43 wounds .081wound/pt

Phew that was better we almsot had to put an AML on something...

Or you know jsut take the tempest launcher....

Tempest launcehr exarchs:
32pts 3.629 wounds .114 pts per model


So when you look at that actualy dark reaper tempest launchers are the best GEQ thing we have. If you take the repeaper launchers for anti tank, and upgrade the exarchs for tempest launchers for anti GEQ your actually not making to bad a choice thier.

Dionysodorus wrote:




Fafnir brings up Shadow Spectres, which do significantly better than Hawks against GEQs (while again being much better against everything else). Granted they have to be in flamer range to be good anti-horde. And they're comparably durable since they're typically going to have 2+ saves with a -1 to hit.




Again you need 2 turns or to cast quicken to get your flamer spectre's into range. However if you can get them in range i don't imagine that'd do so bad. I have math them before because i ignore the existance of forge world despite myself.

So let's see i'm using the battle scribe points for these so if they are wrong for give me:

3 spectres 69pts in flamer range: 5.83 wounds .085 wounds/pt

Hey that's pretty good. Problem is getting that thier the swooping hawks could ahve shot twice from more than twice as far away. if you want to take a big squad and cast quicken on them to get them into melee turn 1. That'd work out nicely, but swooping hawks with no fuss will do the same thing every time if they also use thier grenade on thier target... and they don't need outside help.... So let's leave our boys in blue alone.

Dionysodorus wrote:



Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.



Why not??? models in your army are gonna die. That's the point of the game... plus if you can quicken spectres to get them in turn one.... i'd quicken scorps who deep strike on thier own to make sure they can get thier charge off.... Also you can spend a command point to give the scorps supreme disdain.

Dionysodorus wrote:



One unit you didn't mention but which I've been pushing on here for a few days now is Shining Spears. A Spear that shoots and charges GEQs does better for its cost than anything else mentioned so far. It's actually not close. They're 24% more efficient than Scorpions against GEQs and 15% more efficient than Spectres inside 8", it's generally pretty easy to get them into CC, and they're also ridiculously good against everything else.



I love shining spears and i'd agree they are amazing. I've said as much before. I even made a list with them available here if any one wants to check it out. THey are rivaled by the tempest launcher exarch though.

BAsicly except for the shining spear things. I'd honestly have to say looking at the math your mistaken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadenuat wrote:
They are. They were already one of hardest hitting units in the codex, grinding many things better than specialists due to twin catapults-lances-charge combo, and now they're probably the most One Punch aspect of Them All, while also being durable and only a fraction more expensive than regular bikes.

And now I finally don't need to survive "that one turn" when enemy shoots their whole army at them. Because Quicken. I wonder if I will even need those charge after advance things, probably not and Quicken will suffice.


If you ahve more than 1 unit of spears. you can Quicken 1 unit and charge after advance the other unit. Then the others can potential try out long bomb charges rerolling with the saim-hann attribute.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:25:32


Post by: Galef


I agree that Shining spears are by far the most versatile choice. My only hang-up about them is that they have to get right up close to the enemy meaning you really need to build your list around them (needing 1-2 Quicken and Protect platforms, other units to be up close to distract fire, etc)

This funny thing about Shining Spears, Windriders and Vypers is that while the Saim-Hann attribute can be helpful for them all (to varying degrees) being Alaitoc or Biel-tan could actually be better defensively or offensively depending on your loadout.
An added bonus for being Alaitoc has already been mentioned: The WL trait makes a Skyrunner Autarch and ideal HQ for bike. Being immune to Morale means being able to have larger Windrider untis (and thus less deployment drops) while also getting reroll 1s to hit from the same Autarch.

Competitively, I'd say a list full of Shining Spears will likely do better than Windriders, but an Alaitoc Autarch at least makes Windriders an appealing choice.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:31:52


Post by: xmbk


12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

Nids, for instance.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:41:20


Post by: Dionysodorus


mmizie, I feel like you didn't actually read my post. You're responding to a lot of things I didn't say.

I specifically said that Wave Serpents don't shoot well, but then you act like you're refuting what I said by doing a bunch of math for Serpents shooting stuff. Serpents are primarily good for reasons besides their shooting output. For example, they can charge stuff and tie it up. That said, it's interesting that Guardians in cheap Serpents are all together actually just about as good against GEQs as Dire Avengers, per point, which makes them a much better deal overall since you're getting a Serpent body along with all that shooting.

I've also never really found it to be a problem that the Guardians sit inside the Serpents for a turn. I mean, you'll generally be doing this with Dire Avengers too so I'm not sure that it's making a difference, but, especially now, Eldar armies can be incredibly durable in the face of a turn 1 alpha strike.

You do a bunch of irrelevant math for a Dark Reaper Exarch with an AML when I clearly said "tempest launcher". Maybe you should try the math again but with the weapon that's actually good at horde killing.

For the rest, I think you're missing an important point that I mentioned a few times -- things like Spectres and Shining Spears are also great against things other than GEQs. Swooping Hawks aren't. They only look at all comparable to other units if you're solely concerned with GEQ-killing, and even then they're not the best at it. Meanwhile the Spectres can move 12", advance, and shoot 18" at something else on turn 1.

This is also the problem with Scorpions. They do okay against GEQs, if you can make the charge. That's not likely if you're just deep-striking them. And then they're just crap in every other situation, where you don't need to quickly get through a GEQ screen.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:42:13


Post by: mmimzie


 Galef wrote:
I agree that Shining spears are by far the most versatile choice. My only hang-up about them is that they have to get right up close to the enemy meaning you really need to build your list around them (needing 1-2 Quicken and Protect platforms, other units to be up close to distract fire, etc)

This funny thing about Shining Spears, Windriders and Vypers is that while the Saim-Hann attribute can be helpful for them all (to varying degrees) being Alaitoc or Biel-tan could actually be better defensively or offensively depending on your loadout.
An added bonus for being Alaitoc has already been mentioned: The WL trait makes a Skyrunner Autarch and ideal HQ for bike. Being immune to Morale means being able to have larger Windrider untis (and thus less deployment drops) while also getting reroll 1s to hit from the same Autarch.

Competitively, I'd say a list full of Shining Spears will likely do better than Windriders, but an Alaitoc Autarch at least makes Windriders an appealing choice.


Yeah definitly agree spears are amazing. One thing for saim-hann is that strategem is pretty good. It give you some good support for multiple spear units as the advance and charge on a second unit can let you pull off 2 turn 1 charges.

I'd either go one full size squad of shining spears (yes the exarchs really good, but his none exarch buddies are all pretty good and multiple well with buff) and nothing else if i go aliatoc or Biel-tan each providing more protection or more damage specificly for your shining spears. (biel tan also has the court of the young king strategem, but i dontk now it's worth it only +2 to charge with out the avatar and 2 cp).

Or i'd go saim-han with 1 full size squads in the web way ( to charge with quicken) and multiple smaller squads who can be allowed to turn 1 charge with the saim-hann strategem. Also in saim-hann you can protect your spears from over watch by using the stratagem on an autarch on jet bike with the eye for distant events strategem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote:
mmizie, I feel like you didn't actually read my post. You're responding to a lot of things I didn't say.

I specifically said that Wave Serpents don't shoot well, but then you act like you're refuting what I said by doing a bunch of math for Serpents shooting stuff. Serpents are primarily good for reasons besides their shooting output. For example, they can charge stuff and tie it up. That said, it's interesting that Guardians in cheap Serpents are all together actually just about as good against GEQs as Dire Avengers, per point, which makes them a much better deal overall since you're getting a Serpent body along with all that shooting.

I've also never really found it to be a problem that the Guardians sit inside the Serpents for a turn. I mean, you'll generally be doing this with Dire Avengers too so I'm not sure that it's making a difference, but, especially now, Eldar armies can be incredibly durable in the face of a turn 1 alpha strike.

You do a bunch of irrelevant math for a Dark Reaper Exarch with an AML when I clearly said "tempest launcher". Maybe you should try the math again but with the weapon that's actually good at horde killing.

For the rest, I think you're missing an important point that I mentioned a few times -- things like Spectres and Shining Spears are also great against things other than GEQs. Swooping Hawks aren't. They only look at all comparable to other units if you're solely concerned with GEQ-killing, and even then they're not the best at it. Meanwhile the Spectres can move 12", advance, and shoot 18" at something else on turn 1.

This is also the problem with Scorpions. They do okay against GEQs, if you can make the charge. That's not likely if you're just deep-striking them. And then they're just crap in every other situation, where you don't need to quickly get through a GEQ screen.


Yeah i did reread it after and say the tempest launcher bit. I brain farted abit thier, and actually added it alittle bit ago in the spoiler section. So your right i did piggeon whole you on the AML. So sorry for putting my foot in your mouth ^.~.

The wave serpent bit. if your putting the guard in the serpents to use thier shooting, the serpents cost is now tacked onto the guard. Why not just bring multiple units of guard instead of the serpent. Or again the webway strike guardians who onlyn eed webway strike to be effective which is a small cost for what they do in my opinion.

I do mention your need to deep strike them and support them and i equate that to spectres. Honestly if you can chilout moving and advance for a turn with spectres, you can drop a unit of scorpions and move them up into charge range the next turn.

SO aside from the Dark reaper exarch. Who is good <.< but the tacked on reapers who aren't. i really disagree with the rest of what you say because it's slow or the damage isn't thier.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 15:53:09


Post by: Galef


xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:14:26


Post by: xmbk


 Galef wrote:
xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-


Correct, using the linked stratagem improves Focused more than Lance. But the cp is still relevant for the d6 dam roll, and with the extra AP vs 2+ Lance will average higher damage. #of hits isn't really important, it's all about the damage.

But this is a very specialized case, so in general just defaulting to Focused is fine. I think the OP mentioned Nids though, and Lance has it's uses against the big bugs you really want dead.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:22:09


Post by: wuestenfux


How about the Nightspinner?
It has an interesting main weapon with 2D6 shots of high strength requiring no LOS.
I have one at home and I may use it. Or would a conversion to a Fire Prism be better?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:22:58


Post by: DanielFM


Hi, could you give me some help? I would like to use Asurmen as converting the Visarch into him appears to be one of the best possible uses (aside from a simple Autarch proxy).
How would you build an army around him to be somewhat functional (not necessarily competitive)?
For extra info I'm playing CWE+Ynnari without separate battalions, Yvraine and the Yncarne (I know, character heavy and suboptimal, but rule of cool man!), 8 Scorpions, 5 Dark Reapers and 1 or two Harlequin troupes in Starweavers.
Wraith units and Dire Avengers are most welcome.
Aiming for 2k.
Thanks!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:36:39


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which doom also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:39:49


Post by: wuestenfux


Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which fortune also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.


A lethal model. But he's lumbering which makes him situational.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:51:59


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


A counter assault unit at best I think.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 16:59:53


Post by: Galef


My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.
The only exceptions to this rule are HQ choices that massively buff surrounding units (though those still have to be able to keep up) or units that also have decent range weapons (i.e. can be used turn 1) to use as they close the distance.
Asurmen and the Avatar are so close to this, but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)

EDIT: 8th edition has slightly changed this for me, as units that can "deep strike" or "infiltrate" than charge are now almost as good as traditionally fast units. Adding powers like Quicken, Warptime, etc plus charge rerolls to bonuses to charge movement have all combined to make this worthwhile, but not every melee unit has access to these

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 17:31:38


Post by: mmimzie


xmbk wrote:
 Galef wrote:
xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-


Correct, using the linked stratagem improves Focused more than Lance. But the cp is still relevant for the d6 dam roll, and with the extra AP vs 2+ Lance will average higher damage. #of hits isn't really important, it's all about the damage.

But this is a very specialized case, so in general just defaulting to Focused is fine. I think the OP mentioned Nids though, and Lance has it's uses against the big bugs you really want dead.


So the difference in this guns only matters at T6 for current lines of models and a few T9 forge world models that most folks don't use or are banned at tournament.

So it's both VS T8 3+ save.
Focused 1.78 wounds
Lance 1.56 wounds

Thus the focused is better. Both have the same to hit and to wound roll and both ignore all the armor. This changes in favor of lanced if the target as better armor. it also changed is the model is T6.

T6 3+:
DIspersed1.167
Focused: 1.78
Lance: 1.94

In which case the lance become better.

Normally a reroll doesn't really make the difference, but in the case of linked fire against T6 it does. This is because the two weapon profiles are so close

T6 linked:
Dispersed 2.333
Focused: 3.16
Lance: 3.01

As you can see the focused just passes the expected damage from the lanced when using linked fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.
The only exceptions to this rule are HQ choices that massively buff surrounding units (though those still have to be able to keep up) or units that also have decent range weapons (i.e. can be used turn 1) to use as they close the distance.
Asurmen and the Avatar are so close to this, but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)

EDIT: 8th edition has slightly changed this for me, as units that can "deep strike" or "infiltrate" than charge are now almost as good as traditionally fast units. Adding powers like Quicken, Warptime, etc plus charge rerolls to bonuses to charge movement have all combined to make this worthwhile, but not every melee unit has access to these

-


I agree completely, and even takjing the avatar taking him to provide court of the young king doesn't really feel worth it. Asurmen maybe if you have gallons of dire avengers, but his buff is hard to weight as many armies will kill your avengers with out AP making his buff useless.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 17:53:23


Post by: Ratius


Two potentially interesting combos:

Wraithknight with a Iyanden spirit seer equipped with the Psytronome.
Get them close to the enemy (main problem there), charge the WK and pop Psy. Use the WKs titanic feet ability then.
Thats 4 base attacks doubled to 8 for the Psy multiplied by 3. So 24 str 8 attacks hitting on 3s.
Seer then allows rerolls of 1s so should average about 20(?) str 8 hits dealing d3 dmg each.

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 18:25:13


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Ratius wrote:

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).


...ok, I adore this. Good god that is hilarious!

On top of this, you can go for Webway Strike for two more Biker units, use Quicken on one and hope the SH charge re-rolls get the other one there. That is 28 models charging in T1 after blasting with all those lances and shurikens. Gnarly! Probably a lot of points committed to an alpha strike, but why not go big?!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 19:13:54


Post by: the cosmic serpent


 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the Nightspinner?
It has an interesting main weapon with 2D6 shots of high strength requiring no LOS.
I have one at home and I may use it. Or would a conversion to a Fire Prism be better?


I see the night spinner only useful if you want to tuck it away in a corner and fire without LoS. The 2D6 shot volume from a spinner can be matched by a fire prism sitting still to fire twice and using the dispersed mode, 2d6 Str 6 ap -3 D1 is fairly similar to 2d6 str 7 ap 0 (-4 on 6s to wound) D2. The spinner hits a little harder but has a more difficult time getting through armor. The prism has the ability to adapt to firing profile based on your selected target where the spinner can not, which to me makes it less efficient. Jack of all trades master of none the spinner seems to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ratius wrote:
Two potentially interesting combos:

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).


I posted a list with this setup on my gaming group forum a couple of days ago. I'm really looking forward to trying this out. I own 9 spears
right now, but I'm considering buying more to swap out my two Windrider squads for two more 6 man spear squads. If this performs as well as I want it to.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:02:04


Post by: Crusaderobr


 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-


Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-


10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which fortune also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.


A lethal model. But he's lumbering which makes him situational.


Wave Serpent will solve all your problems.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:13:26


Post by: the cosmic serpent


 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-


Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-


10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?


I read his comments as competitive meaning 1st turn alpha strike which is why the serpent tactics aren't discussed. GW in prior versions went out of their way to prevent T1 assaults, in 8th they seem to be a staple of the alpha strike so relying on serpents is delaying your ability to strike. I think the argument being made is that with our stratagems and traits we now have ways to T1 assault but in most cases it relies on something moving very fast or relying on spells like quicken to charge out of deepstrike.

Your serpent tactic is still valid if you build around a beta strike.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:13:38


Post by: Crusaderobr


Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
A counter assault unit at best I think.


Wave Serpent...


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:14:58


Post by: Shadenuat


Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:16:45


Post by: Crusaderobr


the cosmic serpent wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-


Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-


10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?


I read his comments as competitive meaning 1st turn alpha strike which is why the serpent tactics aren't discussed. GW in prior versions went out of their way to prevent T1 assaults, in 8th they seem to be a staple of the alpha strike so relying on serpents is delaying your ability to strike. I think the argument being made is that with our stratagems and traits we now have ways to T1 assault but in most cases it relies on something moving very fast or relying on spells like quicken to charge out of deepstrike.

Your serpent tactic is still valid if you build around a beta strike.


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.


5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent, and wont do much in melee honestly. 10 man with fortune, protect, and doom against a target... now your talking. 2+ 5+++ save scorpions for the win!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:27:02


Post by: Spartacus



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.


5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent, and wont do much in melee honestly. 10 man with fortune, protect, and doom against a target... now your talking. 2+ 5+++ save scorpions for the win!


The two 5 man squads will hit harder than a 10 man squad, doom or no doom.

Standard Striking scorpions come with 2 str4 attacks each (plus mandiblasters on a 6+), which is pretty weak for a dedicated CC unit in my opinion. The exarch claw is the only thing which will be of much threat to most enemies, so having 2 is worth the tradeoff surely.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:28:39


Post by: the cosmic serpent


 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:30:45


Post by: Crusaderobr


mmimzie wrote:
Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.



There isnt much risk if you toss them in a wave serpent. Guaranteed second turn charge unless they shoot your serpent down with all its -1 hit modifiers, which is unlikely.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:33:32


Post by: Shadenuat


 Crusaderobr wrote:
5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent

Eh. More blood to Ynnari god.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 20:37:36


Post by: Crusaderobr


 Shadenuat wrote:

The two 5 man squads will hit harder than a 10 man squad, doom or no doom.

Standard Striking scorpions come with 2 str4 attacks each (plus mandiblasters on a 6+), which is pretty weak for a dedicated CC unit in my opinion. The exarch claw is the only thing which will be of much threat to most enemies, so having 2 is worth the tradeoff surely.


Doom and fortune, protect and jinx is required for them to perform in cc against tougher targets imo, if you want to throw 5 man squads at your opponent for easy victory points be my guest. Dont say I didnt warn you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the cosmic serpent wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


There is nothing wrong with setting up Scorpions 9" away. Its just harder to pull off a charge sometimes, its not guaranteed like the serpent pretty much is. Dont get too hung up on points costs. If you dont have a Farseer casting doom and fortune in your list, your missing out.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 22:39:20


Post by: Karhedron


 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.

If you are running them in a vacuum, most Aspect Warriors work better as MSUs I think. You get more Exarchs and more flexibilty while reducing vulnerability to Battleshock. Victory points is the only potential downside and that only affects a minority of scenarios. It is the best way to play Ynnari for SFD I think. Lots of MSU squads means you are more likely to go second though which is something to bera in mind during planning.

Of course once you start chucking in Stratagems, Traits and buff powers. Pretty much all non-aura buff powers naturally work better when targeting a larger unit. Plus sometimes you may want larger units to contest objectives.

The upshot of this is that I think optimum squad size for Aspect Warriors depends on the Aspect and the rest of your army. If you are playing Iyanden or using the Alaitoc Warlord Trait to mitigate Battleshock then larger units are more viable. Avengers are good candidates for larger squads due to ObjSec. Anything coming in using a Webway stratagem should be as big as possible (go large or go home ). Units that have their own infiltrate/DS rules are likely to still be better as MSU as they will be more likely to be used opportunistically away from the supporting units in your army.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 22:51:27


Post by: Shadenuat


Well, Avengers don't have something like Claw, Star Lance or Tempest Launcher. Executioner is good, but casting Empower on 10-sized squad of banshees means more supported squads than just having only Doom and a bunch of 5 model squads with an extra halberd.

So yeah, it all depends. But for unit like scorps, where a regular elf is just an elf with a chainsword, while exarch is a power fister who generates additional attacks and such, I'd take more exarches.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/01 23:20:48


Post by: Crusaderobr


The only major gripe I have about 8th edition is the fact characters cant join squads anymore, so no fortune for your farseer or warlock if they hitch a ride in a serpent with your aspect warrior squad. Sigh. I already miss the good ole days of 4th-5th.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 00:25:08


Post by: Wyldcarde


the cosmic serpent wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


That would be a valid point if wave serpents weren’t good on their own. It’s not like the wave serpent drops off it’s troops
And disappears. It’s still shooting, assaulting to tie up units and still super hard to take down.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 01:08:37


Post by: xmbk


I think Vypers need to be able to buy vehicle upgrades in order to be a viable choice.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 02:23:49


Post by: the cosmic serpent


Wyldcarde wrote:
the cosmic serpent wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


That would be a valid point if wave serpents weren’t good on their own. It’s not like the wave serpent drops off it’s troops
And disappears. It’s still shooting, assaulting to tie up units and still super hard to take down.


I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike. If you were already taking a waveserpent and happened to load it with scorpions then you wouldn't need to consider the waveserpent in the scorpions efficiency/points.I was just trying to expand on a question Crusaderobr had in regards to something Galef wrote about Scorpions not being competitive. In all my posts above I agree that the serpent tactic is viable. The breakdown between Galef's opinion and Crusaderobr's opinion is that I think what Galef means by competitive is cheap, smashy, turn 1 alpha strike and Crusaderobr's opinion is that the unit isn't bad just because they require support (decreases their efficiency/points) or aren't guaranteed a Turn 1 charge (missing out on a turn to contribute to your offense). I think Crusaderobr is right there are some nice combos with scorpions, attributes, stratagems and psychic powers that can be pulled off. I think they can be "competitive" just maybe not in the "tournament" sense. I have 30 scorpions (the ones that look like the predator, the current models) and Karandras, they are my favorite aspect models. I see many more ways to use them now with the 8th codex compared to 7th/6th so that makes me happy.


Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-

Crusaderobr wrote:
Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.



Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-

Crusaderobr wrote:
10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 05:12:13


Post by: Fafnir


the cosmic serpent wrote:

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


Recently went through a tournament that did just that. Ended up smashing most of my opponents hard and fast until they had no teeth left to bite back, and then spent the rest of my turns farming objectives while they got to sit back and harmlessly wait for me to finish them off. The back-and-forth slugfests were great, but the current ruleset just doesn't often lend itself to that short of either poor rolling or unoptimized lists.

A lot of that problem just comes with the way the game is. I really like 8th edition, and I'm glad it came out when it did, because it was the perfect time for me. It brought me back into 40k in a big way after I left at the beginning of 6th, and it's usually a lot of fun. But it's still very obviously a rushed and (with the way new codices seem to be all over the place, throwing in much needed defensive tools left-and-right, some better thought out than others) incomplete ruleset that could have used more time in the oven. Moreover, the I-go-you-go system just ends up being far too heavily weighted with a game of this scale.

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


...and with that movement of 7 without the ability to be buffed/teleported/quickened/transported thanks to his stupid exclusion from every other Eldar ability, your opponent won't ever feel the need to, since by time he finally makes it up the field far enough to be remotely relevant, the enemy army will have already died of old age. And if he ever does manage to shake his fist at those whippersnappers hard enough to get them worried, that same low mobility makes it extremely easy for the enemy to tarpit him with pointless chaff that will keep him and his laughably low attacks characteristic tied up for the entire game.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 05:28:21


Post by: mmimzie


 Fafnir wrote:
the cosmic serpent wrote:

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.


Recently went through a tournament that did just that. Ended up smashing most of my opponents hard and fast until they had no teeth left to bite back, and then spent the rest of my turns farming objectives while they got to sit back and harmlessly wait for me to finish them off. The back-and-forth slugfests were great, but the current ruleset just doesn't often lend itself to that short of either poor rolling or unoptimized lists.

A lot of that problem just comes with the way the game is. I really like 8th edition, and I'm glad it came out when it did, because it was the perfect time for me. It brought me back into 40k in a big way after I left at the beginning of 6th, and it's usually a lot of fun. But it's still very obviously a rushed and (with the way new codices seem to be all over the place, throwing in much needed defensive tools left-and-right, some better thought out than others) incomplete ruleset that could have used more time in the oven. Moreover, the I-go-you-go system just ends up being far too heavily weighted with a game of this scale.

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


...and with that movement of 7 without the ability to be buffed/teleported/quickened/transported thanks to his stupid exclusion from every other Eldar ability, your opponent won't ever feel the need to, since by time he finally makes it up the field far enough to be remotely relevant, the enemy army will have already died of old age. And if he ever does manage to shake his fist at those whippersnappers hard enough to get them worried, that same low mobility makes it extremely easy for the enemy to tarpit him with pointless chaff that will keep him and his laughably low attacks characteristic tied up for the entire game.


I agree with a lot of this. The bgi turns are very dramatic. You can put SOOOOOO much out in any givin turn, and i don't think ti's necessarily an 8th only problem. it's honestly been an issue for some time. Definitely was the case in 7th... infact i think it was worse then lol.

Honestly, i thought the avatar was cool too, but he's just too slow. If you go against a heavy gun line army your not making it into melee till turn 3, and if that gun line is flying tau or enemy flying eldar you'll never make combat, as they'll scatter faster than you can swat them.

The other avatar of khaine's problem is his target. The avatar wants to fight vehicles and big monsters... but all the vehicles and big monsters are waaaay faster than he is and/or can easily be protected by hordes of nobodies that the avatar can't will kill effectively. Basicly if the avatar get's a charge it's because your opponent gave it to you in my book.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 05:49:56


Post by: Fafnir


What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a note less related to just complaining about things, I'm not sure whether to go down the road of ghostswords or D-scythes on my Wraithguard/blades. They'll be acting as entourage for my Avatar (sigh...). Now, on one hand, the charge reroll aura of the Avatar is nice, but I have no illusions about the limitations of their poor mobility. The ghostswords just don't really seem to stick out for me.

Is there really any reason to go for the ghostsword variant when the D-scythes give fairly comparable damage and offer more versatility (they look a bit cooler?)? I'll likely be running an Alaitoc list, if that matters, although I'm not married to the Craftworld pick.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 10:03:38


Post by: Wyldcarde


I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho. It’s all well and good saying a x unit need to kill y worth of points to be worth it, but there is much more to the game than just that. Tying up your opponents biggest baddest shooty unit for a turn might not earn a unit any points in the “how much did it kill” department, but it is clear that it is a contribution to the overall goal of actually winning the game/tournament. Eldar especially can’t be judged on their return due to the fact that the army is so synergenistic.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 10:10:38


Post by: Drake003


Wyldcarde wrote:
I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho. It’s all well and good saying a x unit need to kill y worth of points to be worth it, but there is much more to the game than just that. Tying up your opponents biggest baddest shooty unit for a turn might not earn a unit any points in the “how much did it kill” department, but it is clear that it is a contribution to the overall goal of actually winning the game/tournament. Eldar especially can’t be judged on their return due to the fact that the army is so synergenistic.


Exactly what I was thinking too


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 11:05:47


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


the cosmic serpent wrote:


I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike.


Sorry to call you out specifically but I see a lot of people following this line of thinking and it's just wrong. Someone mentions a combo of units supporting each other and inevitably another poster chimes in with the total points cost of the combo to show how inefficient it is- the game just isn't that simple.

Psykers will be buffing a variety of units all game so their points investment is spread across the whole army. Wave serpents will not only be transporting their cargo, but also putting out a decent amount of firepower, dishing out a few mortal wounds, charging enemy units to lock them down or soak up overwatch, and soaking up a huge amount of damage.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 11:09:13


Post by: Fafnir


The point for the Scythes is that they can also assault, and do more on the first turn for it. They're just as durable, letting them be just fine at tying enemies up, the only differences being that they can advance while also threatening enemies, can hit flyers, and can get ridiculously lethal overwatch within 8".


The only situation that really jumps out at me where ghostswords really shine is with an Iyanden Wraithbomb.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 11:50:25


Post by: Shadenuat


Wyldcarde wrote:
I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho.

More like, Eldar have so many force multipliers that people only see the most obvious OP things first, some other things can hide in the details for a time. Like people thought warlocks were unplayable overpriced garbage in 5th, until people began playing dual jet councils. Or the banshees just during this first year ETC.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 12:11:34


Post by: Dionysodorus


I think psychic buffs are largely understandable as buffs to single units. It's pretty rare that I get great use out of Fortune, Conceal, or Guide for more than one unit in a game. I expect that Protect and Quicken will be the same. The real offensive benefit of buff psykers rather than buffs attached to units is that Farseers and Spiritseers can switch over to Smite when they run out of good buff targets. Debuffs are the ones that work synergistically with multiple units in interesting ways. We all know how well Doom can work. Jinx is probably similar. That said, of course there's a huge opportunity cost with psychic powers in that you can only use them once each turn. There are lots of units that would be a good target for Guide or Protect or Quicken if only there wasn't some other unit which benefits far more.

But Serpents are absolutely a model that shouldn't be judged by how much they kill, although it should be noted that they generally compare pretty well with Dire Avengers if they also fire off their Shield. Serpents tying up scary shooting units is game-winning. It's possible that they don't cut it for super-competitive tournament play, where every gunline is going to have huge light infantry screens, but they do great work in even fairly competitive pick-up games.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 12:32:39


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


The Shining Spear big has bitten and I was thinking about adding this to my Alaitoc Battalion (which features a means to Quicken the unit listed).

Saim-Hann Outrider

HQ:
Autarch Skyrunner (WotRW)
Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Falcon’s Swiftness, Shimmerplume
[108]

Fast Attack:
(9) Shining Spears (Quicken)
Star Lance
[281]

(9) Shining Spears (WW)
Star Lance
[281]

(9) Shining Spears (WW)
Star Lance
[281]

[951]

The ones out of the Webway re-rolling charges should make it. The Quicken unit has to clear a good distance though, depending on deployment. If things don't look guaranteed for them to get into it on an average charge roll, I can WotRW them and let the Autarch hang back a bit and charge in second turn - more of a priority to get the bigger squads in. Just depends a lot on deployment. Also debating on the Swiftness vs Eye for trait - though that extra 2" may make a difference of him charging at all vs being able to lock out Overwatches by charging first.

Is this too silly? It has some good firepower across a variety of targets and can charge in with decent combat ability (not great, but the AP and damage make each hit a bit more hefty). With Fly, it can jump over lighter screens that aren't perfectly positioned or aren't high enough in numbers. This is especially true if they want to leave the 4.1" consolidation gap between the screen and the core units, as that is plenty of room to land in.

This is like a major glass cannon approach - but is it viable?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 12:51:36


Post by: DanielFM


Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 12:54:26


Post by: admironheart


So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....

Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.

But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 13:06:31


Post by: the cosmic serpent


Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
the cosmic serpent wrote:


I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike.


Sorry to call you out specifically but I see a lot of people following this line of thinking and it's just wrong. Someone mentions a combo of units supporting each other and inevitably another poster chimes in with the total points cost of the combo to show how inefficient it is- the game just isn't that simple.

Psykers will be buffing a variety of units all game so their points investment is spread across the whole army. Wave serpents will not only be transporting their cargo, but also putting out a decent amount of firepower, dishing out a few mortal wounds, charging enemy units to lock them down or soak up overwatch, and soaking up a huge amount of damage.



I don’t disagree with you. I see this line of thought a lot too and I was using it as an example of how some people approach their “competitive” list building. I am not saying this is a view I take just a view that people have.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 13:07:12


Post by: Dionysodorus


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

This is like a major glass cannon approach - but is it viable?

I don't think it's a glass cannon build, really, and Spears hit hard enough that it'll work well in a lot of games. Spears are about as durable as Marines in the open against most things. That's not exactly hard to kill, but they're not made of paper. A Spear is more durable than a Dire Avenger in cover vs bolters. It's really only overcharged plasma that you're very scared of, and the 4++ helps a lot there.

I would say that you don't get that much out of being Saim-Hann except for access to their stratagem. The Attribute actually doesn't synergize all that well with Spears since you really want to be within 6" to shoot laser lances anyway, and with only two units that have to make 9" charges you can get most of the same benefit by being willing to spend a CP to re-roll a die.

Some things to maybe consider:
1) The Saim-Hann stratagem on the first unit is actually going to suffice to get you close enough in many cases even without Quicken. This unit is more likely to make its charge than one of the deep strikers unless it's starting more than 31" away. Meanwhile Quicken's 18" range makes it pretty easy to cast on one of the deep strikers, letting you move up into laser lance range and basically guaranteeing a charge.

2) 3-man units of Spears are far more efficient than 9-man units because the Exarch is such a beast. You're using big units to synergize with Quicken and WWS, but especially if you end up using a different Craftworld it might make sense to take at least one of the WWS units and make it 3 3-man units which deploy on the table instead. It's true that they'll probably only get to shoot their catapults on turn 1, but they'll be a lot more durable since they're paying 13.6 ppw (almost the same as Marines) vs 14.8 for the 9-man unit, and then as Ulthwe or Alatoic they'll have a 6+++ or be harder to hit. And then when they do get into CC, they hit a lot harder vs anything other than GEQs.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 13:08:46


Post by: Purifying Tempest


 admironheart wrote:
So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....

Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.

But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?


Sounds like you drove the Avatar right into the swamp without doing anything to bring it down, first. Shirken weaponry should make short work of guard.

Remember that eldar is all about putting the right gun where it needs to be. Avatar vs conscripts is not that.

Isn't there also a stratagem to fall back and shoot/charge afterwards? Not sure if the Avatar can leverage it off hand... But you could have gotten a melee support unit in to take over for the Avatar, then moved him out into tanks or something more valuable.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 13:12:21


Post by: Galef


 DanielFM wrote:
Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.

The problems with the Falcon are that the Serpent does everything it can do, but better.
A Falcon with Pulse laser & Brightlance isn't as good as a Twin Bright lance Serpent because the Serpent is still cheaper, has an extra wound, has the Serpent shield.
The Falcon also HAS to take at least 1 Heavy weapon (the Pulse laser) meaning it cannot be as efficient as an all Shuricannon Serpent that can move (including Advance) without penalty. At least 1 of the Falcons weapons will either be -1 to hit or can't fire at all.
And if you plan on sitting the Falcon back to mitigate this, why not just take the superior Fire Prism for that?

The Falcon biggest issue it that it tries to be too many things, most of which the Serpent can do better anyway.

-


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 14:00:36


Post by: Shadenuat


Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 14:30:46


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


The 3 units of shining spears list mentioned above sounds pretty cool but I think that taking multiple such units with eldar gives diminishing returns.

One unit of 9 Shining spears can be thrown at the enemy and buffed up with Quicken, Conceal, Protect, Fortune and more. The opponent will have to deal with this unit but their damage output will be severely diminished when doing so. With 3 units of spears going in the opponent can target the least buffed unit and negate the effect of the other buffs. So 3 units are nowhere near 3x as good as one.

I think a key tactic with the new Eldar will be forcing your opponent to target units that have massive defensive buffs while the rest of your army picks them off.


As an example you could take:

1) A few hammer units to throw at your enemy 1 at a time, like:

20 Guardian Defenders in the Webway.
9 Shining Spears.
10 Wraithguard/blades

2) The buff brigade:

Farseers
Spiritseers
Warlocks

3) Long range firepower to pound the enemy while they are trying to deal with the "distraction Carnifexes":

Fire Prisms
War Walkers
Dark Reapers
Crimson Hunters


I'm thinking something like 2 Fire prisms and a unit of 3 War Walkers with EMLs to shoot from extreme range. A "bunker" of 10 Wraithblades with Axes deployed centrally to screen the psykers. Then turn 1 drop 20 gurdians in the opponents face and buff them to hell and back so that they are hard to shift and hard to get past. Turn 2 the Shining spears get launched forward with all the buffs on. Turn 3 the Wraith blades have made it up the board and get all the buffs.

Every turn there is a super juiced up unit the enemy HAS to deal with while they get shot up by your heavy support.




Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 14:35:00


Post by: wuestenfux


I'm thinking something like 2 Fire prisms and a unit of 3 War Walkers with EMLs to shoot from extreme range. A "bunker" of 10 Wraithblades with Axes deployed centrally to screen the psykers. Then turn 1 drop 20 gurdians in the opponents face and buff them to hell and back so that they are hard to shift and hard to get past. Turn 2 the Shining spears get launched forward with all the buffs on. Turn 3 the Wraith blades have made it up the board and get all the buffs.

It seems to require a lot of CPs.
At the 2000 pt level, you have about 6 to 9 CPs not more.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 14:48:25


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The 3 units of shining spears list mentioned above sounds pretty cool but I think that taking multiple such units with eldar gives diminishing returns.

One unit of 9 Shining spears can be thrown at the enemy and buffed up with Quicken, Conceal, Protect, Fortune and more. The opponent will have to deal with this unit but their damage output will be severely diminished when doing so. With 3 units of spears going in the opponent can target the least buffed unit and negate the effect of the other buffs. So 3 units are nowhere near 3x as good as one.



And here I think the opposite. They can focus down on one unit - but taking on three? That will not be easy - even if that one unit is stronger in a few ways (I don't think the powers listed make it 3x stronger), three units is simply more volume of fire/attacks/wounds. And you are pouring so much of your psychic output into the single unit, you need at least a Farseer and some Warlocks to get those spells out there, meaning you commit more points to the unit to make it more potent.

As for "toss them in one at a time" - is that prudent? It isn't like armies can't do two things at once - repel your hammer and shoot up your second and third ones at range. Seems like going all in with a major alpha that is properly supported with a medium-sized gunline would be potentially better in that they spend a few turns trying to chew on your alpha, while you pick off stuff at range with your support (Hemlocks & Prisms).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 14:49:34


Post by: DanielFM


 Galef wrote:
 DanielFM wrote:
Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.

The problems with the Falcon are that the Serpent does everything it can do, but better.
A Falcon with Pulse laser & Brightlance isn't as good as a Twin Bright lance Serpent because the Serpent is still cheaper, has an extra wound, has the Serpent shield.
The Falcon also HAS to take at least 1 Heavy weapon (the Pulse laser) meaning it cannot be as efficient as an all Shuricannon Serpent that can move (including Advance) without penalty. At least 1 of the Falcons weapons will either be -1 to hit or can't fire at all.
And if you plan on sitting the Falcon back to mitigate this, why not just take the superior Fire Prism for that?

The Falcon biggest issue it that it tries to be too many things, most of which the Serpent can do better anyway.

-

What a pitty. The Falcon is so iconic and I hate the WS turret's guts. It's more Tau than Eldar


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 15:28:08


Post by: Wyldcarde


 Shadenuat wrote:
Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.


I don’t think starcannons cut it at lower cost. Being heavy loses the triple cannon serpent ability to advance and fire at full effect. Strength 6 isn’t as good as it used to be under the new table. Whereas before you wounded t4 on 2s and took off hull points on a 6, now it’s wound on a 3 and maybe take a wound off a vehicle on a 5. But vehicles have four times the wounds as hull points and are likely to still get a save.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 15:50:50


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


It seems to require a lot of CPs.
At the 2000 pt level, you have about 6 to 9 CPs not more


My lists are all built around 8 CPs at the moment, a Battalion and two 1CP detachments. The list I was theorizing about there is relying more on Psy powers than stratagems. It would need 1 for webway strike (maybe 3 depending what you're up against), 1 per turn for the Prisms, then there's a handful for defensive buffs like the guardian sheild, fire and fade, and maybe the -1 to hit buff (2CP for that one puts me off a little.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


And here I think the opposite. They can focus down on one unit - but taking on three? That will not be easy - even if that one unit is stronger in a few ways (I don't think the powers listed make it 3x stronger), three units is simply more volume of fire/attacks/wounds. And you are pouring so much of your psychic output into the single unit, you need at least a Farseer and some Warlocks to get those spells out there, meaning you commit more points to the unit to make it more potent.

As for "toss them in one at a time" - is that prudent? It isn't like armies can't do two things at once - repel your hammer and shoot up your second and third ones at range. Seems like going all in with a major alpha that is properly supported with a medium-sized gunline would be potentially better in that they spend a few turns trying to chew on your alpha, while you pick off stuff at range with your support (Hemlocks & Prisms).


I wasn't suggesting that 1 buffed Spear unit is better than three, but that three are not 3x better than one, hence diminishing returns. Any decent army will crush 1 unit of buffed up spears in a single turn, but every shot your opponent fires at a unit with Protect, Fortunce, conceal etc... is a win for you.

Shooty alpha strike lists can be very good in 8th, but assault alpha strike lists are very inconsistent. Any decent list should have ways to counter the Swarmlord + Pod + Genestealers + Trygon type turn one assault shenanigans- screens and infiltrators make this fairly easy.

The "throw them in one at a time" idea is really the best case scenario and won't always be possible for the reasons you state. However, if you have two or three such hammer units, you can throw them out in any order, seperatlly or together, as is required on a game by game basis.


The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.



Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:18:21


Post by: Purifying Tempest


Wyldcarde wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.


I don’t think starcannons cut it at lower cost. Being heavy loses the triple cannon serpent ability to advance and fire at full effect. Strength 6 isn’t as good as it used to be under the new table. Whereas before you wounded t4 on 2s and took off hull points on a 6, now it’s wound on a 3 and maybe take a wound off a vehicle on a 5. But vehicles have four times the wounds as hull points and are likely to still get a save.



I'm starting to think a few weapons like Starcannons were built around the thought of Doom and Jinx being things that are always available to Eldar. Which I think hurts overall, because Autarch + Aspect only builds get a lot weaker, and we're almost forced to drop a couple hundred points on Psykers. Pretty much every Eldar list without Psykers is immediately made better with them.

Also... I really don't like d3 Damage weapons. You'd think it'd be great for things like Terminators or Obliterators... but the reality is that they end up sucking up 3-4 damage instead of 2. Who is not notorious for sneaking in 2 wounds on a squad of terminators... only to roll 1 damage on the first shot, and then 3 on the second.

This also gets me reluctant to fall in love with the d3 Focused mode of the Fire Prism. Oh, look, 1 shot. Does damage... 2 damage! The d3 is the true enemy in the game!

I've really been enjoying Shuriken weapons. Crapapults and Cannons may not be overwhelmingly awesome, but they do the job against most things. And the volume and psychic support just seems to be so much better when centered around these weapons. At least when I shoot 20 catapults at a Leman Russ, I'm going to sneak some damage in and it will all be -3 AP. With Doom... it is a scary amount of damage these Shuriken weapons can do.

That is probably why I will never really opt for Star Cannons, Scatter Lasers, and maybe even Bright Lances as the game starts evolving (especially as more and more T8 infiltrates into lists). Also, running EVERY unit in the army and then still being at FULL ranged strength... that allows you to really throw a wrench in your opponent's plan until they start realizing that Mv 7 is really closer to Mv 10-12. You can't do that with Starcannons, though.

If it ain't a Crimson Hunter, Spirithost unit, or Fire Prism... it'll likely have some sort of Assault/Shuriken weaponry for me to get maximum mileage out of Biel-Tan trait + Battle Focus.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:30:33


Post by: Niiru


 Fafnir wrote:
What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.



Or, alternatively, as it is a Forgeworld model, Forgeworld should ackknowledge that their Avatar model is different enough from the GW version to warrant a different set of rules. Make him a special named Avatar, like "The Right Hand of Khaine" or "Old Fire Eyes" or something. Give him a primarch statline and some extra powers and leave the current Avatar as his little brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I'm here, what are peoples opinions on options for gun platform units now? Which are the better options overall? When I talk about gun platforms, I mean the most dakka for the points, so I'd point towards:

Vauls Wrath
War Walkers
Vypers
Falcons maybe?
Hornets (though these are now very expensive relative to the others, hopefully FW do an update)


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:41:12


Post by: wuestenfux


The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.

What unit do you favor here?
In general, the opponent will go for an enemy unit that can do some serious damage (shooting or cc) to his/her army.
Shining Spears and Dark Reapers come to my mind, while other units like Wraithguard or Fire Dragons will often be mounted in a Serpent and are therefore not targetable while mounted.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:49:23


Post by: Moosatronic Warrior


 wuestenfux wrote:
The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.

What unit do you favor here?
In general, the opponent will go for an enemy unit that can do some serious damage (shooting or cc) to his/her army.
Shining Spears and Dark Reapers come to my mind, while other units like Wraithguard or Fire Dragons will often be mounted in a Serpent and are therefore not targetable while mounted.


I think it needs to be a unit that can hit hard but also is fairly durable/cheap to begin with- I don't think Dark reapers fit well in this role, they are a unit that wants to take advantage of the enemy shooting the distraction Carnifex. It also helps if it is in their way physically- A wall of 20 Guaridans that Webway + Quickens to 2" away from an assault armies DZ on turn one has stopped that army advancing unless it can fly. 10 Wraithblades would be a more extreme version of that.

I mentioned Guardians, Spears and Wraithblades with axes above because the can all gain a 3++ save with buffs (only vs shooting for two of them).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:53:53


Post by: Purifying Tempest


Niiru wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.



Or, alternatively, as it is a Forgeworld model, Forgeworld should ackknowledge that their Avatar model is different enough from the GW version to warrant a different set of rules. Make him a special named Avatar, like "The Right Hand of Khaine" or "Old Fire Eyes" or something. Give him a primarch statline and some extra powers and leave the current Avatar as his little brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I'm here, what are peoples opinions on options for gun platform units now? Which are the better options overall? When I talk about gun platforms, I mean the most dakka for the points, so I'd point towards:

Vauls Wrath
War Walkers
Vypers
Falcons maybe?
Hornets (though these are now very expensive relative to the others, hopefully FW do an update)


I wasn't sold on the Vaul's Wrath, just feels there are better things for 100 points than a gun.

Vypers just feel outclassed by War Walkers unless you leverage the Biker tag heavily. They also are Fast Attack, aren't they? So they may have some value in putting together a Brigade detachment if you want them as opposed to Swooping Hawks or Wind Riders.

Falcons... decent firepower, on a Transport. It just feels stuck in between the Wave Serpent and Fire Prism. Not as durable and handy as the Serpent as a transport, fire power not on the level of the Fire Prism.

Hornets? I've been having problems with them... to really leverage them, you'd probably want Shuriken Cannons... but they just become an expensive platform for 2 Shuriken Cannons... which brings us back to the War Walker is just better.

War Walkers will probably minimize the investment for the weapons on the most durable platform thanks to the 5+ invulnerable and no degrading profile.

My one and a half cent!


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 16:55:42


Post by: Shadenuat


I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:04:07


Post by: Purifying Tempest


 Shadenuat wrote:
I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.


To me it is more about the loss of interaction with Battle Focus. If Battle Focus would let you fire Heavy Weapons at -1 after advancing, I think the arguments (at least mine) would be A LOT different. Mobile army immediately gets a lot less shifty when bringing a bunch of heavy weapons (though that does make a bit of sense, from a perspective of theme).


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:07:47


Post by: Shadenuat


Only infantry have BF so idk what you mean, unless you meant like Guardian heavy platforms (which can shoot on 3+ now with Ulthwe stratagem btw).

As for the fear of d3 or d6, whole game is based around d6 dice, so... eh? Just put more dice into enemy to even the numbers. I think when it comes to Starcannon you pay less for damage multiplication and more for always making shots at -3 AP.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:13:15


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Shadenuat wrote:
I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.

It's a pretty big penalty. If you're expecting to be at -1 to hit then there aren't many situations where you prefer the starcannon to the shuriken cannon. They're just too similar otherwise. Bright lances are at least highly specialized for killing common T7 vehicles, and they're so expensive that Wave Serpents are a good platform for them (otherwise you make a Vyper or a War Walker way too tempting a target). But surely in general you'd prefer to take Crimson Hunters who always hit on a 3+ and also get some other bonuses.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:18:47


Post by: Shadenuat


What if WS remains stationary? For example, as a bunker for Dark Reapers to wait out first enemy turn or lower amount of deploys. Would twin starcannons be a good choice?

edit. Sure, Hunters are better (than even most other dedicated fire support units), but I'm just wondering what can we put on a transport if we don't need to shurikenrush the enemy. So far I liked lances, when moving once, disembarking, then shooting for other turns while sitting tight at infantry with cannon and with things at enemy's backline with lances.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:25:22


Post by: Eldar Shortseer


the cosmic serpent wrote:


I see the night spinner only useful if you want to tuck it away in a corner and fire without LoS. The 2D6 shot volume from a spinner can be matched by a fire prism sitting still to fire twice and using the dispersed mode, 2d6 Str 6 ap -3 D1 is fairly similar to 2d6 str 7 ap 0 (-4 on 6s to wound) D2. The spinner hits a little harder but has a more difficult time getting through armor. The prism has the ability to adapt to firing profile based on your selected target where the spinner can not, which to me makes it less efficient. Jack of all trades master of none the spinner seems to me.

Vs. (non-Wraith) infantry, S6 vs. S7 doesn’t matter. Dispersed mode is much better at shredding anything (-3 AP is better than -4 AP on 20%-25% of hits), from TEQs (even comparing 1D to 2D) to GEQs. As to functionality, needing no LoS vs. range & flexibility is no contest. Bigger issue is that your tank is only killing (e.g.) around 3.5 or 6 GEQs per turn (NS vs. disp FP), which isn’t a great trade.

S7/2D is an advantage when hunting light armor, but the AP issue is still problematic.


Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins! @ 2017/11/02 17:39:52


Post by: Purifying Tempest


Non-infantry with Battle Focus:

Windriders, Shining Spears, War Walkers.

Those are not trivial exclusions. Two of them can take Shuriken Cannons, the other has a 6" lance (isn't is assault?).

If you're bringing tanks (that aren't named Wave Serpents), you're probably putting heavy weapons on them, not assault weapons. Battle Focus won't help them much, unless Battle Focus was made to affect Heavy Weapons and extended to those vehicles, even if they had it. Wave serpents enjoy being able to advance into position for a measly -1 to hit (and for 10 points, can be even tankier with -1 to be hit).

War Walkers are already good, but can be given their cheaper weapon loadout and advance around and cover some decent ground (read as: deny some decent ground). Even if your opponent blasts them off the table, that's probably 2 Lascannons not hounding your Fire Prisms.

Two Bright Lances on a War Walker is still good... what? 90 points for two lances on a slightly tanky platform? But what happens to the dynamic of the army? They're rooted to the back field, because I don't want to suck up the -1 to hit before they're hammered off the table.

Going back to Star Cannons... I don't think they're really a good "all around" weapon, which means picking their targets are going to be incredibly hard, and the results will likely be volatile. Not enough rate of fire to make infantry respect it, not enough strength to make vehicles respect it.

And in mentioning Dark Reapers... I could take a twin Star Cannon Serpent... or I could take a Triple Cannon Serpent with a squad of Dark Reapers hanging out. I would actually feel much more comfortable with Dark Reapers doing the job that I poked Star Cannons for. And the Star Cannon is still 5 points (50%) more expensive than Shuriken cannon.