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Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 18:54:32


Post by: Lance845


Welcome to the Tyranid Tactics Thread! Your one stop shop for all things nids in 8th edition. This first post Is going to be maintained, by which I mean updated. It's a group effort and if you have anything you wish to contribute to it please feel free to PM me with any contributions you wish to add. IMPORTANT This thread is going to be LONG and keeping the formatting nice and neat is a lot of work. Please. If your going to PM something to me keep the format consistent so I can just copy and paste your contribution to the thread. If I have to edit and adjust everyones PMs it will become a horrible nightmare for me. Help me help us by formatting correctly! Thanks!

FAQs


Quick Reference Sheets for all units and wargear by Lance845
Spoiler:
Fill-able by downloading GIMP (free photoshop) and using the text tool. I am working on creating a fill-able pdf form version so you can just type into it, but it's a lot of trial and error work.

Full Page



Small Format




Special Rules
Spoiler:






<Hive Fleet> Adaptations
Spoiler:










Warlord Traits
Spoiler:

Behemoth
Wound rolls of 6+ in a fight deal +1 dmg.

Kraken
Pick a unit within 6". That unit gets to fight first.

Leviathan
Once per round reroll a single hit, wound, dmg, advance, charge or save.

Gorgon
End of fight roll a d6 for enemy units with 1" 4+ thy suffer a MW.

Jormungdr
Warlord + friendly units within 3" ignore cover.

Hydra
roll 1d6 for every lost wound. 6+ heal 1 wound.

Kronos
Enemy Psykers within 18" suffer d3 MW when they fail a psychic test.

General
Alien Cunning
Redeploy your warlord before the game begins

Heightened Senses
Never suffer penalties to hit.

Synaptic Lynchpin
+6" to synapse

Mind Eater
Each time the warlord slays a character in the fight phase pick a unit within 3" of the warlord. At the end of the phase the unit can move and advance.

Instinctive Killer
Pick a unit before the game begin. Reroll failed hit rolls for all enemy units with the same datasheet.

Adaptive Biology
At the end of the phase when you take damage, for the rest of the game reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.


Powers of the Hive Mind
Spoiler:

Dominion
Select a unit within 36" that has Instinctive Behavior. Ignore IB until your next turn.

Catalyst
Select friendly unit within 18". It gains 5+ FNP

The Horror
Select a unit within 24". -1 to hit and leadership until your next psychic phase.

Onslaught
Select a friendly unit within 18". Removes the penalties for moving and advancing when shooting heavy weapons, assault weapons and charging.

Paroxysm
Choose a unit within 18". That unit has to fight last.

Psychic Scream
Nearest enemy unit within 18" sufers d3 MW. If it's a psyker roll2d6. If the result is higher than their leadership the unit forgets a power.


Wargear
Spoiler:

Basic Bio-Weapons
Scything Talons
SpineFists
Deathspitter

Basic Bio-cannons
Barbed Strangler
Venom Cannon

Melee Bio-weapons
Rending Claws
Boneswords
Lash Whip and Bonesword

Monstrous Bio-weapons
Monstrous Rending Claws
Monstrous Boneswords
Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword

Monstrous Bio-cannons
Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms
Stranglethorn Cannon
Heavy Venom Cannon

Bio-Artifacts
Scythes of Tyran - Behemouth

Chameleonic Mutation - Kraken

Hyper-Adaptive Biology - Gorgon

Slayer Sabres - Leviathan

Slimer Maggot Infestation - Hydra

Balethorn Cannon - Kronos

Infrasonic Roar - Jormungandr

The Ymgarl Factor

The Reaper of Obliterax

The Maw Claws of Thyrax - A model with Rending Claws or MRC. If you slay a model in the fight phase you reroll all hit rolls in all subsequent fight phases.
Lance845: Pretty freaking great for a Melee tyrant. MRC costs 0 points. If you want a relic on the tyrant for melee this will keep him chewing threw the enemy even as it's stat line degrades.

The Norn Crown - Friendly <Hive Fleet> units within 30" do not suffer from IB.
Lance845: Basically worthless. It adds 6 inches to the range needed to negate Instinctive Behaviour. The default range is 2 ft. (24") which is incredibly large. It doesn't increase Synapse or Shadow in the Warp range, so why exactly would you take this over something actually useful like the Miasma Cannon?

The Miasma Cannon - Replace a Heavy Venom Cannon. Just like the regular HVC except it always wounds non Vehicles on a 2+ and auto hits targets within 8".
Lance845: Unless your Hive Fleet of choice has a great weapon that fits your tactics this thing is probably an auto take for shooting.



Stratagems
Spoiler:

Behemoth

Kraken

Leviathan

Gorgon

Jormungdr

Hydra

Kronos

General
Psychic Barrage 1CP


Caustic Blood 1CP


Rapid Regeneration 2 CP


Scorch Bugs 1 CP


Feeder Tendrils 1 CP


Implant Attack 1 CP


Bounty of the Hive Fleet 1 CP/3 CP


Metabolic Overdrive 1 CP


Single-Minded Annihilation 2 CP


Grisly Feast 1 CP


Pathogenic Slime 2 CP


Sporefield 3CP


Invisible Hunter 1 CP


Power of the Hive Mind 1 CP


Pheromone Trail 1 CP


Death Frenzy 2 CP


Overrun 1 CP


Voracious Appetite 1 CP



Units
Spoiler:

HQ
Hive Tyrant

Tyranid Prime

Neurothrope

Tervigon

Broodlord

Old One Eye

Swarmlord

-Forge World-
Malanthrope

Troops
Hormagaunts

Termagants

Genestealers

Ripper Swarms

Tyranid Warriors

Elites
Hauraspex

Hive Guard

Lictor

Maleceptor

Pyrovore

Tyrant Guard

Venomthropes

Zoanthropes

Death Leaper

The Red Terror

Fast Attack
Gargoyles

Mucolid Spores

Raveners

Sky Slasher Swarms

Spore Mines

-Index-
Tyranid Shrikes

-Forge World-
Dimachaeron

Meiotic Spores


Fliers
Harpy

Hive Crone


Heavy Support
Biovore

Carnifex

Screamer Killer

Thorn Back

Exocrine

Mawloc

Toxicrene

Tyrannofex

Trygon

Trygon Prime

-Forge World-
Stone Crusher Carnifex

Fortification
Sporecyst

Lord of War
-Forge World-
Harridan

Barbed Hierodule

Scythed Hierodule

Hierophant Biotitan




Tactics
Spoletta On units and how well they function with the different hive fleets. NOTE: The grades are NOT a gauge of how powerful the unit is, only their synergy with the specific Hive Fleet.
Spoiler:
HQ

Swarmlord: (Named char, so no relics or WT for him)

Behemoth 4/10

The swarmlord is a melee beast and rerolling charges can be good. That said, when the swarmlord wants to join the fight he has already the option to double move. Doesn't get much out of the stratagem.

Leviathan 6/10

The swarmlord is a prime target. Period. The 6+++ really helps. Combined with some gargoyles he can get some precious rerolls out of the leviathan strategem, but against T7 or more targets it will be better to reroll all wounds.

Kraken 6/10

Falling back and charging again is not usefull for this guy, he has no bonus on charge and no wings to penetrate enemy lines. The stratagem on the other hand can be sick on him, allowing him to charge turn 1 together with the unit he moves.

Gorgon 2/10

Rerolling 1's to wound can sometimes be good, but if you really wanted to crack what you were whacking then you would opt for the stratagem that rerolls all wounds. He also has no toxin sacs, so no stratagem.

Hydra 1/10

Totally useless.

Kronos 2/10

The trait is useless and while the stratagem is sick you will have many other shadows for that.

Jormungandr 5/10

Survivability is always nice, but it doesn't work in melee and on a model with a 4++ having 2+ or 3+ will many times not be important.

Hyve Tyrant (without wings):

Behemoth 5/10

A walkrant is not a first line assault unit, but typically a second or third line. For this reason when he gets to join the fight he has no issues with charge distance. The relic scythes are good, but you will usually prefer one of the biocannons or the reaper of Obliterax. The stratagem is so-so.

Leviathan 5/10

Same considerations as the swarmlord. The leviathan sabres are one of our worst relics and there are many Warlord traits better for an Hyve tyrant than the leviathan trait.

Kraken 6/10

Walkrants have no reason to retreat and charge, or to charge turn 1 with the stratagem. The relic though is excellent, -1 to hit on this platform is priceless, and the warlord trait can sometimes be good.

Gorgon 8/10

Same considerations as the swarmlord, but he can actually take toxin sacs, and with the scytals he has enough attacks and AP to make it matter. The Gorgon relic is what makes this really good though. Play this guy with Tyrant guards and let a single wound go to him, this will activate the Gorgon relic and the sixth generic warlord trait (don’t bother with the Gorgon warlord trait), making the hyve tyrant an unstoppable platform with 12W T8 3+ 4++ reducing all incoming damage by 1. 48 overcharged plasma shot hits, or 36 powerfist hits! And the wounds that get through can be passed to the Tguard (catalyst goes on the Tguards). This is the go to fleet if you want an unstoppable tyrant which gets into enemy lines by turn 3 while fending off enemy shooting.
Hydra 2/10

Adaptation is useless, stratagem is useless, warlord trait is rarely useful and the relic while sometimes good will usually be left on the desk in favor of the venom cannon relics.

Kronos (assault) 7/10

A Kronos assault Hyve tyrant has the best Warlord trait in the codex (maybe the best in the game), so he wants to get close and personal. He will not make use of the hive fleet adaptation, but can still make use of the excellent Kronos relic (got to love all our weapons being assault). He has no traits or relics protecting him, so be nice with him and invest in a unit of Tguards.

Kronos (Ranged) 6/10

A Kronos ranged Hyve tyrant makes good use of both the fleet adaptation and the Kronos Relic, but cannot take advantage of the warlord trait. Like with the swarmlord, you will have already enough shadows in place to use the stratagem, he will not need to get in there.


Jormungandr 7/10

A walking Jormungandr hive tyrant is a nice ranged warlord. Increased save and negates cover (extended to other ‘nids within 3”). Forget the Jormu relic and take a bio cannon.

Hive Tyrant (winged):

Behemoth 7/10

A behemoth flyrant is either an assault flyrant or an hybrid one. In both cases the high speed of the flyrant combined with rerolling charges will allow you some impressive stunts. The relic can be good on a full assault Flyrant with double talons, but for the hybrid version you will want the reaper of obliterax or a bio cannon. The warlord trait is a nice option of the assault version.

Leviathan 6/10

The 6+++ is never bad, but the relic is. The Warlord trait can be used to great effect and the stratagem has its advantages.

Kraken 8/10

Kraken stratagem does not work on flying models, and the flyrants have close to no use in gaining a couple of inches more the advance rolls. But charging again after retreating? Boy, that is soooo good! Both the assault, full dakka or hybrid version of a flyrant can get a lot out of this. Kraken relic is always a top grade. Don’t care about the warlord trait. Rather, don’t make this guy you warlord! He will not last long!

Gorgon 2/10

No good. A Gorgon tyrant needs the initial protection of Tguards or he will be focused to death in that single phase he is vulnerable. Flyrants and Tguards are not good friends. The warlord trait can be useful for an assault distraction flyrant, but you would be giving up Slay the Warlord before the end of turn 2.
Hydra 3/10

The relic can be useful if you opt for deathspitters over devourers… and that’s it, Hydra tyrants don’t have much going for them.

Kronos 5/10

A flyrant will not stay still, so that is one useless hive fleet adaptation and the relic is not what you want on a flyrant. That said, having a flyrant with the kronos warlord trait hovering over your lines can mess up a list based on psy powers so much that it is actually worth it to lose your warlord.


Jormungandr 1/10

No hive fleet adaptation, useless stratagem, rarely useful relic and warlord trait not good enough to lose the warlord. Definitely not the fleet to spam flyrants.

Old One Eye: (named char)

Behemoth 7/10

OOE wants to get smashy, possibly together with his smashy pals. This fleet will help you avoiding those awkward situations where he charges alone or sits back while his pals charge.

Leviathan 4/10

Now that his has 9 wounds he no longer needs to be protected, the 6+++ is not necessary. The stratagem can be good if he opts for the crushing claws.

Kraken 2/10
Hmm, no! While he loves charging again and again at the same target, we are talking about OOE here, if what he charged has not gone down to the first charge, then it was something big enough to smash him. You will almost never get to use this trick with him, and he also doesn’t want to ultra advance and charge, he prefers to hang back, where those rippers can look menacing enough to get him ignored.

Gorgon 3/10

Rerolling 1’s to wound, can sometimes be good, but if he really wants to break stuff he will spend that CP and reroll all wounds. No toxin sacs.
Hydra 1/10

No gain at all.

Kronos 1/10

No gain at all.

Jormungandr 4/10

Popping him out of a tunnel together with his pals can be nice, but he will not benefit from the hive fleet adaptation since at range he is not targetable.
Tervigon:

Behemoth 2/10

Tervigons don’t like to assault and this is a deathly sin in a Behemoth fleet. Actually she doesn’t like to do any of the stuff that makes behemoth good.

Leviathan 5/10

Great thing the 6+++, she will need it. Everything else from Leviathan is useless.

Kraken 7/10

Kraken relic, the wet dream of every tervigon. Everything else doesn’t get any use.

Gorgon 5/10

A Tervigon can try to achieve immortality (T9 3+ reduced incoming damage by 1), but will need the cover of venoms and catalyst to make it past the first phase with enough wounds left to make it count. The lack of an invul save really hurts.
Hydra 2/10

Tervigons get almost nothing from the Hydra fleet. They can try the hydra warlord trait, but the opponent will rarely make it work.

Kronos 1/10

No gain at all.

Jormungandr 7/10

A 2+ tervigon is an happy tervigon and since she lacks an invul save, she is going to get the most out of it. The warlord trait can be good for all those termagants.
Prime:

Behemoth 7/10

Like OOE a prime is happy as long as he is sharing a nice battle with his warrior pals. Rerolling charges will give him the necessary confidence in charging together with everyone.

Leviathan 4/10

If the Prime comes under fire then his time has probably come, and a 6+++ will not save him. All in all he doesn’t get much out of the stratagem and he can’t use the Relic.

Kraken 4/10

The prime doesn’t want to charge alone and doesn’t need to fall back and charge. The relic is waster on him, he is not targetable. The Warlord trait is good though, the warriors do actually care about not hitting first, so a Kraken Prime is a nice support there.

Gorgon 6/10

No access to wounds rerolling on his own, and can take toxin sacs, the Prime does get a nice bonus from Gorgon. The warlord trait is marginally useful, but the relic is useless.
Hydra 1/10

Hydra doesn’t offer much to our HQ choices, and Prime is no exception. He gets nothing.

Kronos 6/10

A Kronos Prime in a swarm of gaunts is a good way to deliver the Kronos warlord trait. He will not stay still though, and he cannot take the Kronos relic.


Jormungandr 4/10

Jormungandr has one of the few relics that are actually usable on a Prime. The cover isn’t really useful for an untargetable melee model.

Broodlord :

Behemoth 8/10

Broodlord is yet another model who needs to be kept in company, and yet again Behemoth fleet helps with obtaining a good consistency out of your combined charges. This is also probably the best model for the Behemoth warlord trait, plenty of attacks, high WS, mid strength with rerolled wounds and ignores armor on 6 to wound. Really you can’t go wrong there.

Leviathan 3/10

Like the other untargettable models, a 6+++ isn’t really an help. The stratagem is partially useless since he already rerolls wounds and the warlord trait doesn’t effect him too much.

Kraken 8/10
The best fleet for the broodlord together with Behemoth. Advance on a 3d6 is so good when you can advance and charge. Don’t bother with the relic, it’s wasted on him, but keep the warlord trait since in the (unlikely) event that something survives the stealers assault and fights for another round, going first will do a lot of difference.

Gorgon 1/10

No gain at all.
Hydra 1/10

No gain at all.

Kronos 1/10 if he is not your warlord 6/10 if he is.

If you are going for a stealer shock, then having this guy carry the invaluable Kronos warlord trait is a good move. That said, he doesn’t get anything else out of the Kronos fleet.

Jormungandr 4/10

Nice! A cover bonus that doesn’t work on a model that advances and charges on a model that will advance and charge every turn! The tunneling stratagem is useful though, since the lictors always forget to bring the broolord together with the ‘stealers.

Neurothrope:

Neurothropes do not gain ANYTHING from any fleet. Maybe just a bit from Leviathan to save at 6+ those perils. If you make him your warlord you are putting your Slay the warlord point in bank, but you are not getting anything out of your warlord trait. No relic is useful for a Neurothrope.

Troops
Warriors:

Behemoth 6/10

Using the Behemoth stratagem on the warriors is not a good idea, but they surely love to throw themselves into the fight, and rerolling charges helps with that.

Leviathan 8/10

Warriors tend to become a fire magnet from turn 2 and onward, since by that time they are an advanced shadow and synapse, while also pestering your lines with deathspitters and menacing to connect with a charge. For this reason, giving them a 6+++ that makes them a less appealing target is a good idea. Being 3 wounds, they get the greatest benefit out of our unit line. D3 weapons are already few, and this adds a lot of uncertainty to using those weapons, so D2 weapons are bad, Dd3 are bad, Dd6 are bad and D3 are bad… you are telling your opponent that he can only bolter them down! The leviathan stratagem also works really well with rending claws and boneswords.

Kraken 3/10

Falling back and charging isn’t really usefull with those guys, they don’t have the mobility to benefit from it. They also don’t want to launch themselves into the enemy lines

Gorgon 7/10

Gorgon warriors aren’t bad at all. Rerolling 1’s to wound is the only kind of wound reroll they can get. They have access to venom and the boneswords are excellent weapons to inoculate it. Better played in big groups with boneswords and a ranged weapon. Don’t take venom cannons, you will be advancing a lot, better go for a strangler and aim at something with 10 or more models.

Hydra 5/10

Rerolling misses is nice, but you won’t be outnumbering your target on a regular basys.

Kronos 4/10

Shooty warriors? With 24” spitters it could be possible, but limiting mobility on them has a sour taste.

Jormungand 9/10

Warriors coming out from a tunnel and spraying heavy bolter shots while sporting a 3+ is the best. Don’t charge, if you have melee weapons wait a turn and go for a guaranteed charge, or you will lose the bonus.

Genestealers:

Behemoth 8/10

This is clearly THE hive fleet for genestealers. They want to arrive on the table and strike on that same turn, and rerolling charges does just that, provided that you have a taxi of some kind. If you don’t have a taxi then go for a different hive fleet. You may want to pay those 2 points for the extended carapace, after all you will hardly need to advance and charge when coming out of a taxi, even in the case that you don’t make contact.

Leviathan 4/10

A 6+++ will not save your ‘stealers, and the stratagem gives them MORE damage, which is the one thing that they don’t need.

Kraken 7/10

Not taxiing your stealers? Kraken is your fleet! Turn 1 charge is almost guaranteed. Better to run multiple units, advance with all of them, the first one to make a good roll gets multiplied by the stratagem and charges. The other ones will serve as a second serving. You may use extended carapaces, but you will need a psyker ready to onslaught.

Gorgon 6/10

Rerolling ones to wound will mean more 6s rolled on those sweet rending claws, but again, it’s more damage. Do they really need it? They can take venom, but at a significant cost.
Hydra 5/10

If you don’t play a broodlord then Hydra is actually good, rerolling a 3+ is a significant boost in damage output, not much better than the gorgon bonus though and still only a damage boost. If you already play Hydra for other reasons then genestealers can be good, but don’t play Hydra because of genestealers.

Kronos 1/10

A ranged damage boost, just what genestalers needed…NO!

Jormungandr 3/10

Stealers want to advance. Stealers want to charge. Stealers already have many taxis. Stealers don’t need Jormungandr!

Hormagaunt:

Behemoth 9/10

Dedicated fast melee unit that also loves taxis + rerollable charges= Nice stuff. They are also one of the best possible targets for the Behemoth stratagem, between that and the caustic blood you can turn your gaunts into a good source of mortal wounds. Use them in 30-strong units.

Leviathan 4/10

So, so. Hormagaunts are really linear units, if you shoot at them with the wrong weapon then they will not go down fast enough, if you shoot with the right weapon they get vaporized. A 6+++ does not change this and they already have all the rerolls offered by the stratagem.

Kraken 8/10

Kraken stratagem is a nice way to propel a unit of hormagaunts into the face of your opponents in turn 1, now launch catalyst on them, KEEP THEM UNDER SYNAPSE, and next turn disengage with the survivors and charge deep into their lines. Seriously good stuff. Not to be spammed though, max 1 or 2 units can do this.

Gorgon 5/10

Why oh why do venom sacs on hormagaunts cost 2 points?? Gorgon hormagaunts would be sooo cool otherwise! Instead, they don’t benefit much from the hive fleet adaptation, since they already get that bonus at 20 models and a 30-strong unit with venom sacs comes at 210 points…
Hydra 6/10

Rerolling all misses instad of only 1’s is good, and hormagaunts have the numbers to reap this bonus with a reasonable certainty, but the role of hormagaunts is not to inflict damage, and even with this boost they don’t get far.

Kronos 1/10

No gain at all.

Jormungandr 7/10

They will not get the cover bonus a lot of times, but they really really love taxis. Will you try to charge turn 1? Or will you wait turn 2 for a guaranteed charge after a turn of 5+? The choice will depend on your opponent’s army.

Termagants:

Behemoth 4/10

Cheap termagants may like to get in melee, but usually it’s because you get them to be assaulted rather than the opposite.

Leviathan 5/10

Useful on cheapgants, not so much on devilgants which will still be excellent targets. The stratagem gives them no benefit.

Kraken 4/10
No good, they don’t want to charge ahead and don’t need to retreat and charge. The 3d6 advance though can prove useful.

Gorgon 3/10

Definitely a no. They don’t get almost anything out of Gorgon.
Hydra 2/10

Sure, they will outnumber the enemy units, but the melee damage output of termagants isn’t ever a menace.

Kronos 4/10

Good, but will you be able to stand still with termagants?

Jormungandr 9/10

Taxi and added protection. Can’t really ask for more. This fleet makes for some excellent devil bombs and is the definite counter to meat screens… and not only them.
Ripper swarms

Behemoth 6/10

Rippers can be a big bother for your enemy, deep striking and assaulting things that shoot and don’t fly. Behemoth helps with this.

Leviathan 3/10

Rippers die when the opponent wants them dead. A 6+++ changes nothing.

Kraken 2/10

Let’s make things clear. When playing rippers YOU are the one keeping the other one stuck in melee, not the opposite! Why would you want a fleet that runs from melee?

Gorgon 1/10

Oh nice, increased damage on rippers, now they will really take down those IKs! Let’s try to be serious…
Hydra 1/10

A damage boost on rippers that will rarely apply?

Kronos 5/10

No gain at all, but they can be the sacrificial unit that gets dropped so you can use your stratagem safely.

Jormungandr 2/10

Rippers don’t need a taxi and don’t need protection.

Elites:

Tyrant Guard:

Behemoth 6/10

Same as warriors. They are a bad target for the Brute Force stratagem, but they like to get in melee.

Leviathan 9/10

Tyrant guards in Leviathan can exploit a particular combo. When the tyrant gets wounded, he will get to save the wound as per the Leviathan trait. Should he fail, he can pass that wound to a Tguard, which in turn gets to save it again on a 6+++. That makes for a really though nut to crack.

Kraken 6/10

Most players tend to use Genestealers and hormagaunts for the Opportunistic advance stratagem, but Tguards do possess the mobility to be used that way. In particular, 3 tguards with crushing claws can be an unexpected solution to a pesky vehicle.

Gorgon 5/10

Reroll to wounds are surely good on Tguards, but they don't have enough attacks for the stratagem.

Hydra 5/10

Definetely better than it looks. Tguards with crushing claws will always outnumber theyr intended targets, vehicles, and a bit more accuracy is just what they need. (Remember than you don't reroll the failed 3's, modifiers come after the reroll).

Kronos 1/10

Pass.

Jormungand 8/10

Who doesn't love 2+ guards?

Hive Guards:

Behemoth 2/10

This is a clear no. Hive guards want to stay clear of arms reach.

Leviathan 4/10 (impaler) 7/10 (shock)

Some more durability is never bad, in particular for shock guards. Impaler guards can usually find a safe place by themselves.

Kraken 3/10

Hive guards do not need mobility.

Gorgon 2/10

This makes even less sense than behemoth on Hguards.

Hydra 2/10

Again, another hive fleet that wants to push your Hguards in combat and have them reach a miserable end.

Kronos 8/10 (impaler) 6/10 (shock)

Finally one hive fllet that loves Hguards! The impalers will surely love this, and the shocks could gain something from it.

Jormungand 8/10 (shock) 5/10 (impaler)

Charging and advancing is something that Hguards don't do. That said impaler guards also have good chances of already being in cover. Shock guards don't, and this fleet helps them a lot.

Lictor (and Deathleaper):

Behemoth 2/10

They already reroll charges when it matters and are bad bad targets for Brute Force.

Leviathan 5/10

So so, Lictors don't need durability, but they also don't refuse it.

Kraken 3/10

Not really good, Lictors already have a stratagem to fall back and charge (and shoot), and they always arrive from reserves.

Gorgon 6/10

This is good, Lictors lack in offensive capabilities, so Gorgon actually helps. No toxin sacs, but you were not going to use that strategem on them.

Hydra 1/10

8th edition decided that Lictors are strictly single model units, so nothing to see here.

Kronos 4/10

I'm totally going to keep my lictor still so that i can reroll 1's on his flesh hooks! Obviously i'm joking, but he is actually good as a sacrificial pawn 1st turn to deliver a Deepest Shadow.


Jormungand 4/10

Lictors with a 3+ in the open! Too bad that a lictor charges every single turn.

Zoantrhope:

Behemoth 1/10

No, not going to charge.

Leviathan 7/10

T4 3W 3++ is probably the worst possible profile in the game for your opponent. You know what's worse than that? The same profile with a 6++, so your chances of taking them down with d3 damage weaponry become abysmal!

Kraken 5/10

Zoans advance a lot, and doing that with 3d6 can offest that move 5" they have. Decent.

Gorgon 2/10

Rerolling ones to wound on those brain slaps will really teach your opponent not to mess with the brain bugs!... No.

Hydra 2/10

Good, now they can sometimes reroll to hit on that single str 4 Ap- D1 attack!

Kronos 1/10

If you are looking for the zoans that needed to hit with the warp lances, they were discarded with 7th edition.


Jormungand 2/10

Cover on a bug with a 3++? Really?

Maleceptor

Behemoth 5/10

The Maleceptor isn't the scariest beast we have in melee, but it can pull some damage and he is safer there than out in the open.

Leviathan 8/10

Yes! Maleceptors are dangerous as long as they are alive, they don't degrade that much. For this reason, anything that makes them more durable is great for them.

Kraken 4/10

Maleceptors are the distraction fexes of 8th edition and they want to get near the enemy as fast as possible to start messing with the enemy psychic phase. That said, if you use a metabolic advance instead of an opportunistic advance you are getting much further without sacrifcing the best features of a maleceptor.

Gorgon 4/10

This is not going to make a difference for your maleceptor.

Hydra 1/10

Single model unit.

Kronos 5/10

No gain at all, but since they like to get in there real fast, this can be a way to deliver the deepest shadow that requires some effort to be taken out.

Jormungand 3/10

Maleceptor has a 4++, so cover isn't really needed.

Venomthropes

Behemoth 2/10

Not going to charge.

Leviathan 8/10

The venomthropes are high priority targets, they will not live past turn 2, often not even past turn 1. Take this trait for them and they will love you. Also, 3W combines well with 6+++ to shut down d3 damage weapons.

Kraken 4/10

If, and that's a big if, your venoms are alive by turn 2, you will want them to tag along with your advacing guys. 3d6 help with that.

Gorgon 2/10

Pass

Hydra 2/10

Pass

Kronos 2/10

And again, pass.

Jormungand 5/10

Only useful if you can't find decent cover for your venom bugs.

Pyrovores

Behemoth 4/10

Pyrovores like to be charged, not the opposite.

Leviathan 7/10

Leviathan is good as always, but in this case it is a bit better, since if it is your turn, you can acid blood from a wound and save it at the same time.

Kraken 4/10

Pyrovores advance a lot since they use flamers, so they get something out of Kraken.

Gorgon 2/10

Pyrovores do possess some melee capability, but most of their damage comes from flames and acid.

Hydra 4/10

Better than Gorgon usually, at least against vehicles.

Kronos 1/10

No hit rolls, no Kronos.

Jormungand 10/10

Perfect fit. Pyrovores always have problems delivering their package, and Jormungar is great for that. Don't charge when coming out of the tunnels, and remember that pyrovores can spit flames up to 10" away, so you can do that immediately and then sit on your 3+.

Haruspex

Behemoth 7/10

Like all things that want to get in melee, the Haruspex has a lot to gain from Behemoth.

Leviathan 9/10

Like pyrovores, the Haruspex can combo acid blood and the 6+++. What really shines for him is the leviathan stratagem, he can really make use of rerolling all those 1's to generate extra attacks.

Kraken 4/10

There will be other units in the army that want to use opportunistic advance, and the haruspex is too big to move around units with the fall back and charge trick.

Gorgon 7/10

The Haruspex hurts in melee, and rerolling wounds is nice.

Hydra 1/10

Single model unit.

Kronos 1/10

No ranged attacks.

Jormungand 8/10

Jormungard turns haruspici into Land raiders. Self healing T8 2+ is THOUGH!


Drager on our best anti tank options vs various things you will see on the table!
Spoiler:
First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.

Super Heavy

Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

Armour

Tank

Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"


Transport


This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.

"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"

"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"


Infantry

Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.

TEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"

MEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"

GEQ

"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"

"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"

Range


The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.

Other COnsiderations

Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).


Verdict


Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.


Dynas made a chart showing % chance for success on a charge at various distances and various effects (Adrenal Glands and rerolls)
Spoiler:
I had some spare time on my hands. I search for tables but couldn't find anything, so... I made a thing.
Using mostly this website, and a little manual math.
http://anydice.com/


Mathhammer tables for Charge ranges.
Orange is a base 2d6 with no rerolls
Blue is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 9". Basically charge from Deepstrike and using an ability that grants a reroll of charges.
Yellow is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 8". Basically charge from Deepstrike, but you get a +1 to move or charges (adrenal glands on Tyranids for example).
Green is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 7". I just chose 7 because that is the most probable number on 2d6.
Purple is rerolling 1's on a single die.

Now the hardest one to figure was the Red. Roll 2d6, rerolling the single lowest die. Basically using a command point. The White table at the bottom is the data on this.

TL;DR Here are the Mathhammer results on Charging Tables.




https://i.imgur.com/v8BPhi7.png


Traceoftoxin with a chart detailing point cost per average damage against average vehicles (T7 3+ sv).
Spoiler:



Traceoftoxin On charge/pile in/consolidate rules and how Hormagaunts 6" pile in is better then you might think.
Spoiler:
One thing I keep seeing people misunderstanding (Not in this thread, specifically) is basic charge, pile in and consolidate rules, and how these apply to Hormagaunts. I've made some pics to illustrate the strength of the 6" pile in.
[spoiler]














Lance845 on clearing Screens with a Termagant Bomb.
Spoiler:

Being able to charge out of deepstrikes and transports has opened up melee a lot in the game. As a result players have begun to build a lot of screens or bubble wrap into their list to protect their more vital units from these first turn charges. Tyranids however have been given the tools to deliver a incredibly powerful weapon to clear away these screens or soften targets before they are hit in melee.

You will need 3 things.
1) A full unit of Termagants equiped with devourers.
2) A taxi or delivery method to deepstrike the Termagants into position.
3) 2 command points.

The default transport for the unit is a Trygon or Trygon Prime. They can bring a unit with them in their Trygon tunnel and their base is large enough to fit all 30 Termagants within the range needed to pull this off. Alternatively for 1 Command point you can use Pheromone Trail to bring them to a lictor, but you will still need a trygon to get the unit into reserves to begin with and it can be near impossible (if at all possible) to fit all 30 grants within 6" of the lictor. Finally, with the Jormungandr Hive Fleet for 1 CP you can use The Enemy Below to bring the unit in a tunnel and deepstrike with a much less expensive unit of Raveners, a Mawloc, trygon or Trygon Prime.

On your shooting phase the 30 Termagants with devourers will fire 90 strength 4 shots into whatever enemy screen they have rerolling 1s to wound. At the end of your shooting phase spend your 2 CP on Single-Minded Annihilation to have the unit shoot again. There are very few screens that can potentially survive 180 shots. Chances are you will have completely annihilated any protection they had set up on their front line and softened up some of your prime targets for your first turn charges. You may even expose now target-able characters that were hiding behind the line so the rest of your army can shoot away at them. Learn to love the Termagant Bomb. It is a potent tool in our arsenal to break an enemies protective lines or just plain lay down some incredible amounts of dakka to put a dent in the enemies army.


Tyranid Soup
Spoiler:




Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 19:06:03


Post by: Amishprn86


He dbl check and confirm the Tyrannocyte is 98pts with 5pts each deathspitter.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 19:16:30


Post by: Niiai


Wow nice.

Jormungar: Always in cover is a very good one. Effectivly +1 armour save.

Kraken: Charge after falling back is good with flying to penetrate deeper into enemie lines. Gargoyles in particular.

Leviathan: If this is re-roll shooting and wound, once per unit, it is insane with 1 model units. Perhaps good for the tyranofex big gun.

Kronos: reroll 1's if you did not move. Good for gunlines, very good for tyrant guard if they keep the 36".

hivefleet behemoth warlord trait: on 6's to wound he deals an additional damage. Does this work with dakka flyrants?

-Behemoth: Reroll failed charges, good for reserve strike armies. Especialy if adrenal glands stil give +1 to charge.

-hivefleet behemoth stratagem: 2cp, choose on unit. roll a d6 for each charging model. for each 6 deal 1 mortal wound to the enemy unit it charged. for monsters its on a roll of 2+. 30 gaunts = an averadge 5 6s. 5 mortal wounds for 2 points yes please. Behemot also have the re-roll charge strategem Nice.

- If the jormunghal strategem is like the 5th edition trygon tunnel, move from where one of your snakes popped up, and they can charge you can sett up some tricky turn 2 charges. Wormsign anyone?

Would there be any reason to take a scything tallon carnifex over a screamer killer?

-1 to hit vs fexes seems good. Can some mathammer it though? Is it worth the points or should it just be more carnifexes? +1 bs (probably the antenna head) looks very strong. BS3+ carnifexes, yes please.

2cp stratagem: choose one unit. at the end of the shooting phase it shoots again. (cannot target monsters) : This is made for big units of hive guards or biovores.

The tyranofex actually goes up in cost? It is over costed already. I am a bit sceptical to some of these rumours.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 20:23:53


Post by: Spoletta


Carnifex in his most cheap version comes at 10 points per wound.

-1 to hit comes at 10 points and equals:

+8 wounds against bs5+
+4 wounds against bs4+
+2,66 wounds against bs3+
+2 wounds against bs2+

In case that the attacker rerolls failed hits:

+2,9 wounds against bs4+
+1,39 wounds against bs3+

Obviously against melee it does nothing.

So, if you face guards, then it is really good. Against marines it is good only if they don't have full rerolls.
Naturally, the more stuff you put on your fex, the better this biomorph gets.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 20:31:10


Post by: Niiai


So good vs guard, bad vs guliman?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 20:46:40


Post by: jifel


 Niiai wrote:
So good vs guard, bad vs guliman?

Actually its good vs Guilliman too, just perhaps less good. Takes a marine from hitting 8/9 times to 2/3 times, aka a 0.22222 decrease in chance to hit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 21:00:55


Post by: Niiai


-1 to hit outside of synapse. I hope this is not true. Carnifexes everywhere are screaming.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 21:02:29


Post by: Spoletta


Actually it goes from 8/9 to 3/4.
14,8% loss in effective wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Niiai wrote:
-1 to hit outside of synapse. I hope this is not true. Carnifexes everywhere are screaming.


But synapse range to 12/18". I can live with that.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 21:15:11


Post by: jifel


Spoletta wrote:
Actually it goes from 8/9 to 3/4.
14,8% loss in effective wounds.


Not quite. Remember that rerolls to hit are determined before modifiers. So when you reroll failed to hits, you don't get to reroll a 3 to hit, which will then turn into a miss with the -1.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 21:36:38


Post by: pinecone77


I am sooo stoked...if I can field Screamer Killers while sober, all is well. Maybe they can pop out of Tunnels with a Strat? in any case, I was saying to my son, that a Strat that lets you "stack" a Tunnel for multiple arrivals is both cool, and fluffy. And it changes play in a "good" way. It could sort of add a "spawn point" to the map.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So: Hydra is the Hormagaunt fleet looks like...Kronos the Termagant/Devil gant fleet....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trygon, x30 Devilgants/Termagants in the Tunnel, us CP to shoot twice...no more bubblewrap?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Behemith is the DS Fleet, and Leviathan is the special unit Fleet, most of the time Elites and HQ's benefit the most from double re-rolling....like a Tyrant in CC? (re roll to hit/ to wound possably exploding 6's)

I hope they make Bone sabres decent in some way...maybe add one Mortal on 6+ would be enough....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 22:02:24


Post by: Spoletta


 jifel wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Actually it goes from 8/9 to 3/4.
14,8% loss in effective wounds.


Not quite. Remember that rerolls to hit are determined before modifiers. So when you reroll failed to hits, you don't get to reroll a 3 to hit, which will then turn into a miss with the -1.


True, i had forgot that.

Which means that the actual numbers for rerolls are:

+4 wounds for bs4+
+2,66 wounds for bs3+

Yes, it is definitely good even against Robby.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 22:18:13


Post by: Niiai


I missplayed resently then. I forgott rerolls before modefiers. Could have changed my guliman game the other day.

If the heavy venom cannon is descent bs+1 re-roll Leviathan carnifexes could be good,


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 22:29:10


Post by: Lance845


Jormungdr has my attention the most right now.

+1 save and a strat that potentially allows me to deepstrike units that cant normally do so? Yes. So yes. If that works with monsters i will be dumping fex broods out of tunnels for sure.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 23:00:09


Post by: Strat_N8


If these rumors prove correct, can I say I called it with no -1 to hit fleet?

Looks promising. I'm a bit confused about Gorgon if it proves true seeing as Scything Talons allow for the same thing and Hydra does something similar (albeit with a condition)...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 23:05:24


Post by: Xenomancers


I didn't see anything about warriors? Just the ability to shoot twice with a unit makes their current rules appealing - any buffs to the warriors?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 23:07:17


Post by: Niiai


Gorgon is the one that is fighting the tau aigain and again, right?

Jormundgard (being Norse) is close to the north?

What about the last 2 unknown, any fluff piece?

Edit:

So...if we get re-roll to charge. And we have adrenal glands. There is a 64% chance to make the 9" charge with the re-roll after comming from reserves. More if we use a command point on one of the dice if one dice come up high, and one low.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 23:08:53


Post by: babelfish


Kronos is going to make shooty builds interesting. Hive Guard/Biovores would both love to shoot twice. Exocrines would LOVE to reroll 1's when they don't move. 3 Exocrines supported by a bunch of Hive Guard and Biovores, protected by Malethropes and screened by 'stealers or a giant pile of 'gaunts could potentially put out a lot of damage.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/29 23:21:03


Post by: Xenomancers


babelfish wrote:
Kronos is going to make shooty builds interesting. Hive Guard/Biovores would both love to shoot twice. Exocrines would LOVE to reroll 1's when they don't move. 3 Exocrines supported by a bunch of Hive Guard and Biovores, protected by Malethropes and screened by 'stealers or a giant pile of 'gaunts could potentially put out a lot of damage.
Indeed. I think it's going to be hard not to take always in cover. As it stands right now the only thing nids really need is defense.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 00:01:50


Post by: Amishprn86


For sure you will use 2-3 Hive Fleets, Nids wont really work to well with just 1.

At thats how i see the better nids list being built.

Edit: Unless rumors are true (no actual proof so far) that there will be a command point to swap your Fleet, tho, even then i would think 2 different fleets would still be better.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 02:35:13


Post by: Lance845


Many updates. Anything from a source that is not Seag is in red, simply because I wanted to sort out anyone not the guy who seems most credible from the others. But it all seems pretty on point to me for the most part.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 03:43:27


Post by: Deshkar


Honestly, not sure where to start.

i got a quick cop out with magus/neuro & flyrant spam along with cheap gants/gsc troop. lol



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 04:43:38


Post by: Lance845


Oh gak. Norn crown is apparently 30" negates instinctive behaviour.

A midfield synapse creature with that can relieve hiveguard biovores from any synapse babysitters.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 05:14:21


Post by: Insectum7


This is all looking super exciting. I'm guessing I'll have to be re-pointing out my Warriors list when I get the book. Maybe I can upgrade them all with Adrenalin Sacs with the extra points


If the Jormungandr rules and trait are as the rumor says, wow.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 07:07:35


Post by: Lance845


Updated Jormungr adaptation.

Aparently it's


A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase.


Still seems good to me. Charging you would loose the benefit anyway cause your in combat. Though you could end up loosing it when they fall back. Not workig on Fly sucks but that mostly means Flyrants and Gargoyls.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 08:34:05


Post by: Amishprn86


Been up watching thehivemind like all night, i'm so excited, some of the CP's are just amazing, some of the upgrades and HQ units are now amazing!

I cant wait!

Neurothopes HQ's, lol i think i need to convert my at least 3 Zoans to Neurothropes now.


I think this is going to be very strong:

2cp single minded annihilation end of shoot phase, choose inf unit, shoot again
+
1cp pheromone trail
choose when nid inf set up as reinf/reserve. if got lictor on battlefield, you can set up wholly within 6 inch of lictor and more than 9 from enemy
+
Devil Gants (30man lets say) Thats 180 bolter shots, thats 80 wounds to T3 units (before saves) thats really good!


Tyranids for sure will need to have 2-3 detachments to gain fully benefits from Hive Fleets


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 09:14:33


Post by: Sim-Life


Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 09:30:30


Post by: Overread


No shrieks was kinda expected since I doubt they were doing to re-do the whole warrior sprue again. Also I expect spike rifles and other gaunt weapons are gone as well - back down to terma, devil and spinefist gaunts.


The neurothrope being its own HQ is an interesting choice and perhaps this speaks well of GW giving a few more hero units into the army through dataslate releases in the future.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 09:42:41


Post by: Astmeister


 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Both! Just use two different detachements.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 09:44:10


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:00:57


Post by: Amishprn86


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was a Clarification on IB (Instinctive Behavior)

"IB indeed has a -1 to hit Malus for shooting. BUT only if you aim at something that isn't the closest unit
Likewise it's -2 charge distance(I think) if you attempt to charge something that isn't the closest unit"



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:08:56


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Amishprn86 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:09:39


Post by: Amishprn86


There was a Clarification on IB (Instinctive Behavior)

"IB indeed has a -1 to hit Malus for shooting. BUT only if you aim at something that isn't the closest unit
Likewise it's -2 charge distance(I think) if you attempt to charge something that isn't the closest unit"


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:14:55


Post by: Lance845


Another round of updates added in. More relics, some points, Swarmlord appears to deal additional mortal wounds on 6s. Weapon costs. Thornback details.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:16:23


Post by: Astmeister


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)


Endless swarm is just bad, if you have to pay for points. Tide of Traitors from CSM does not have to, so why should we?
Opportunistic Advance can be very good in late game or maelstrom to get objectives.
Hypertoxicity really depends on how good tox sacs are. Maybe they will be quite cheap? Also some people on tournaments took them to get rid of Knights and such.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:19:15


Post by: Amishprn86


This is looking really good for nids, it has a large amount of alpha strike potential with a 2nd wave hit.

You can also do Shooty nids with Salamander Traits, Tfex, Hive Guards etc..

Sadly Harpies are still better than Crones, but at least crones are A4 over A2, since HVS got better it make that A4 buff to crones pointless.

I a little overloaded, as someone that can field 5 2k armies all completely different from each other all at once, IDK what i want to play lol.

Thats a really good thing.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:33:09


Post by: dan2026


I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:39:57


Post by: Amishprn86


Malanthrope still, but Neurothrope are great as well b.c they can give out powers and are cheaper.

With Tfex gunline you want the Re-roll Fleet traits for sure, so some -1 to hits will still be needed.

But IMO i think Malanthrope still is best.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:41:15


Post by: Lance845


 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.



With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:50:32


Post by: Astmeister


 Lance845 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.



With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.


I think the 36 inch of the Capsule Cannon should be enough. Also 6 LasCan shoots on one model are not exactly terrible. I would play him....
Additionally, it is not know yet how good a normal venom cannon will be, right?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:57:34


Post by: Lance845


 Astmeister wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.



With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.


I think the 36 inch of the Capsule Cannon should be enough. Also 6 LasCan shoots on one model are not exactly terrible. I would play him....
Additionally, it is not know yet how good a normal venom cannon will be, right?


We haven't hear of any boosts to the tyrannofexes stat line yet. If it's 6 shots at BS 4+ doing d6 dmg (averaging 3 hits and a potential 3-18 dmg (9-12ish average)) or you can have 12 shots at BS 3+ doing 2 dmg each. (Average 8 hits and a potential 16 dmg consistently) for less points then the Tyrannofexes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 10:59:49


Post by: Amishprn86


Exocrines are amazing, they were before and are now even more so, they can shoot 2x and even +1 to wound now if you wanted too.

You dont move? 12 shots, oh! lets shoot 12 more times!


The HVC got a boost, the normal one stayed the same, but there is a Relic VC now (D6 shots, poison 2+, that can be a flamer also) and i'm assuming a Prime can take it, meaning he might be good to add also.

Spelling


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:01:10


Post by: Astmeister


 Lance845 wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.



With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.


I think the 36 inch of the Capsule Cannon should be enough. Also 6 LasCan shoots on one model are not exactly terrible. I would play him....
Additionally, it is not know yet how good a normal venom cannon will be, right?


We haven't hear of any boosts to the tyrannofexes stat line yet. If it's 6 shots at BS 4+ doing d6 dmg (averaging 3 hits and a potential 3-18 dmg (9-12ish average)) or you can have 12 shots at BS 3+ doing 2 dmg each. (Average 8 hits and a potential 16 dmg consistently) for less points then the Tyrannofexes.


Well the Capsule Cannon will be better against T8 models, something the shooting of Tyranids is lacking. Also you can reroll the damage results via a cp, which has a potentially devastating effect. Since I love HVC, I will team them with the T-Fex and the capsule cannon.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:07:51


Post by: Lance845


Cool. Play what you enjoy. Was just pointing out that I am not entirely sure they fixed the Tfex yet. I am hoping there is something there I am not seeing so that Tfex and Exocrines serve similar but situationally better roles. But at the moment I think exocrines still just outclass them point for point.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:09:18


Post by: Amishprn86


What a Capsule Cannon? I play nids for years and never heard that before.

Edit: I agree with Lance845, Exocrine so far is still better IMO but the Tfex is BETTER than it was, with the re-roll 1 miss and 1 wound trait and 3 shots compare to 2 (well with something like a 25% chance to shoot 2 more) its over all better, play it if you like, we wont really know till its on the table a couple times.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:11:06


Post by: Cephalobeard


 Astmeister wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)


Endless swarm is just bad, if you have to pay for points. Tide of Traitors from CSM does not have to, so why should we?
Opportunistic Advance can be very good in late game or maelstrom to get objectives.
Hypertoxicity really depends on how good tox sacs are. Maybe they will be quite cheap? Also some people on tournaments took them to get rid of Knights and such.


The reason it costs points is super simple.

Reinforcement Points states: new units = Points
Adding to an existing unit = no points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:14:44


Post by: Lance845


 Amishprn86 wrote:
What a Capsule Cannon? I play nids for years and never heard that before.

Edit: I agree with Lance845, Exocrine so far is still better IMO but the Tfex is BETTER than it was, with the re-roll 1 miss and 1 wound trait and 3 shots compare to 2 (well with something like a 25% chance to shoot 2 more) its over all better, play it if you like, we wont really know till its on the table a couple times.


I assume he means rupture cannon. Might be a translation thing.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:16:39


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Cephalobeard wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)


Endless swarm is just bad, if you have to pay for points. Tide of Traitors from CSM does not have to, so why should we?
Opportunistic Advance can be very good in late game or maelstrom to get objectives.
Hypertoxicity really depends on how good tox sacs are. Maybe they will be quite cheap? Also some people on tournaments took them to get rid of Knights and such.


The reason it costs points is super simple.

Reinforcement Points states: new units = Points
Adding to an existing unit = no points.


Tide of Traitors
Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. If
you do, pick a unit of Chaos Cultists and remove it from
the battlefield. You can then set it up again wholly within
6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any
enemy models, at its full starting strength.

Endless Swarm
Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy


Tide of Traitors is Endless Swarm made FUNCTIONAL and BETTER, that's the problem. Whilst tecnically the gants unit is "a new one" Tide of Traitors just works as if it were another unit of Cultists (you can remove them whenever you want and wherever they are; on the other hand gants have to DIE FIRST and then you have to allocate the same points costs for the same unit that could have started the game on the field)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:16:47


Post by: Amishprn86


AH that makes since lol, i thought for a sec i missed an updated weapon to the Tfex.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:22:44


Post by: Lance845


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?


Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order


I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.


Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)


Endless swarm is just bad, if you have to pay for points. Tide of Traitors from CSM does not have to, so why should we?
Opportunistic Advance can be very good in late game or maelstrom to get objectives.
Hypertoxicity really depends on how good tox sacs are. Maybe they will be quite cheap? Also some people on tournaments took them to get rid of Knights and such.


The reason it costs points is super simple.

Reinforcement Points states: new units = Points
Adding to an existing unit = no points.


Tide of Traitors
Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. If
you do, pick a unit of Chaos Cultists and remove it from
the battlefield. You can then set it up again wholly within
6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any
enemy models, at its full starting strength.

Endless Swarm
Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy


Tide of Traitors is Endless Swarm made FUNCTIONAL and BETTER, that's the problem. Whilst tecnically the gants unit is "a new one" Tide of Traitors just works as if it were another unit of Cultists (you can remove them whenever you want and wherever they are; on the other hand gants have to DIE FIRST and then you have to allocate the same points costs for the same unit that could have started the game on the field)


If it's true that Endless swarm works the way the rumors say it does I expect it will get Errata/FAQed to either specifically not cost points or to match the wording of ToT. As stated, it's basically useless the way it is.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:37:57


Post by: Sim-Life


I don't know why people think Behemoth is so good. I've NEVER failed a charge as Nids. But then I generally don't attempt charges more then 9" away unless its hormagaunts and I can afford to lose some.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:39:33


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't know why people think Behemoth is so good. I've NEVER failed a charge as Nids. But then I generally don't attempt charges more then 9" away unless its hormagaunts and I can afford to lose some.


The stratagem is great for gribblies


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:41:57


Post by: Sim-Life


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't know why people think Behemoth is so good. I've NEVER failed a charge as Nids. But then I generally don't attempt charges more then 9" away unless its hormagaunts and I can afford to lose some.


The stratagem is great for gribblies


I know but what I'm saying is I don't attempt long charges and generally try to engineer a situation wherein I'm 7" away or so before charging. I dunno, maybe it's the Warmachine player in me but I don't go for Hail Mary charges unless something is already engaged.

Edit: Sorry, tired. I'm not hugely gone on the stratagem either. It seems fairly situational but then I think we have better stratagems to pay for.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:42:39


Post by: Amishprn86


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't know why people think Behemoth is so good. I've NEVER failed a charge as Nids. But then I generally don't attempt charges more then 9" away unless its hormagaunts and I can afford to lose some.


The stratagem is great for gribblies


Yeah this, I'm 100% sure i'm going to have 3 different Detachments with 3 different fleets lol


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:42:49


Post by: Cephalobeard


It won't be changed to match the CSM one. Am has the exact same thing and it was clarified to COST points.

It's infinitely easier to be able to just throw a unit away and let it die, compared to having to keep it alive to use the ability.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:45:45


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Cephalobeard wrote:
It won't be changed to match the CSM one. Am has the exact same thing and it was clarified to COST points.

It's infinitely easier to be able to just throw a unit away and let it die, compared to having to keep it alive to use the ability.


You're not forced to use the CPs preventively like Reinforcements points. You're not at a disadvantage for not using Tide of Traitors; meanwhile you're playing with x less points when building around Endless Swarm.
If you can't understand this you are not worthy any tactical annotation


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:47:12


Post by: Lance845


 Cephalobeard wrote:
It won't be changed to match the CSM one. Am has the exact same thing and it was clarified to COST points.

It's infinitely easier to be able to just throw a unit away and let it die, compared to having to keep it alive to use the ability.


astra militarium or ad mech? Also name of the strategem?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:48:06


Post by: Amishprn86


But as it stands no one will use Endlesswarm if it cost Reinforcement Points.

Why spend CP to have an Outflanking gant unit only after another gant unit dies? When i could just have the same CP to DS it where and when ever i wanted?

Edit: also if you dont have the CP left you dont get to use your Reinforcement Points, this should be a free trait just for the army if its Reinforcement Points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:49:35


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Amishprn86 wrote:
But as it stands no one will use Endlesswarm if it cost Reinforcement Points.

Why spend CP to have an Outflanking gant unit only after another gant unit dies? When i could just have the same CP to DS it where and when ever i wanted?


Meanwhile with x less points you're missing even more pressure coming from such an additional unit


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:55:20


Post by: Amishprn86


Yeah just saw that, was about to link it too lol, sniped me!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 11:56:19


Post by: Cephalobeard


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
It won't be changed to match the CSM one. Am has the exact same thing and it was clarified to COST points.

It's infinitely easier to be able to just throw a unit away and let it die, compared to having to keep it alive to use the ability.


You're not forced to use the CPs preventively like Reinforcements points. You're not at a disadvantage for not using Tide of Traitors; meanwhile you're playing with x less points when building around Endless Swarm.
If you can't understand this you are not worthy any tactical annotation


You're not forced to use Endless Swarm, either. Yes, it's bad. However, blame that on matched play rules instead of the Stratagem. I'm sure narrative dudes are going to love it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 12:40:18


Post by: Spoletta


We can finally make the hive tyrant our warlord without it dying in a single shooting phase!

Give it the sixth trait and 3 tguards, survive one shooting phase by dumping all wounds on the guards except one (easy with T7 and 4++, especially with a -1).
Now you have -1 damage from all sources, which means that he requires at least 2 more full rounds of shooting to go down (with catalyst), and your opponent will not get that many.
With a 18" synapse, cheaper boneswords and the relic venom cannon my walkrant will become a nightmare.

I'm going to make him the head of my behemoth battalion.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 12:45:29


Post by: Astmeister


Spoletta wrote:
We can finally make the hive tyrant our warlord without it dying in a single shooting phase!

Give it the sixth trait and 3 tguards, survive one shooting phase by dumping all wounds on the guards except one (easy with T7 and 4++, especially with a -1).
Now you have -1 damage from all sources, which means that he requires at least 2 more full rounds of shooting to go down (with catalyst), and your opponent will not get that many.
With a 18" synapse, cheaper boneswords and the relic venom cannon my walkrant will become a nightmare.

I'm going to make him the head of my behemoth battalion.


Agree. As you can see from my avatar, I am playing a Walkrant for a long time with HVC. It will finally be useful.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 13:48:00


Post by: Niiai


I am trying to write down a summary of the strategies from the rumours so far. Thanks to  lordhikaru  at the tyranid hive forum page for this. http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/53797/codex-rules-preview-updated-summary#ixzz4wzwFcUFn

Synapse is very good for us. 12" fearless. Even being out of the 24" instintive behavior is not so bad. Just attach and charge the closest thing.

The best hivefleets:

Behemot:

Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: Re-roll failed charges.

Stratagem: Brute Force (1CP)
Use when a Benemoth unit successfully completes a charge. Roll a dice for each model in the unit that ended it's charge move within 1” of an enemy model. For each roll of 6+, the enemy unit suffers 1 Mortal Wound. If the charging unit was a Monster, it instead inflicts a Mortal Wound on a roll of 2+.


Behemot is the best for big melee swarm units. Strategm can be very powerull with an averadge 6 mortal wounds on a group of 30.

Hydra:

Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: Re-roll all failed To-Hit rolls during the Fight Phase for units who outnumber their opponents.

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units.


Hydra also a good swarm army if you don't have many points to spend on mortal wound stratagem. Outnumbering big units re-rolls to hit in CC. This include genstealers and can be very powerfull. Probably the best army for mass genestealers. The stratagem lets you re-inforce, but under the current rules you need to pay points for that, so it is less exciting.

Leviathan:
Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: Each unit may re-roll 1 failed To-Hit and To-Wound roll when it shoots or fights (needs exact wording before confirmation).


Depending on the wording, but it is very good with multiple smaller units Have a lot of different smaller units also gives more command points. Things like the carnifex can split up into several units. HeavyVenom cannon also packs a punch, so that is all good. Perhaps even smaller units of warriors. The stragem will rarly be used IMHO.

Jorumgandr:

Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase.


Arguably one of the best once. But loosing it when you charge is hamstering genestealers and other mellee based units. But many tyranid lists include som backline long ranged units, that you can place where you want now.

Kraken:
Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: Units may charge after Falling Back.
A bit lackluster. Only good if your units are stuck in CC at the begining of your turn and you want to chharge something else. One notisable senario where this is good is if gargoyles have surounded something they can't kill (like a rhino) and now you can fall back with flying and attack what you are really after. Arguebaly a very good relic: 'Kraken relic: -1 to hit from enemy shooting' Keep your HQ alive

Kronos:

Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: If a unit does not Move, it may re-roll 1's To-Hit when shooting.


Only good for gunlines. competes with others.

Gorgon:

Spoiler:
Hive Fleet Attribute: Re-roll 1's To-Hit during the Fight Phase.


Scything tallons already does this. Although remenisent of 5th edition genestealers where you re-rolled missed once, meaning 'only miss on 2's'. Good for a mixed melle armie with some smaller units of genestealers.

Notisable stratagems:

The enemy below (jormungandr):

Spoiler:
1cp the enemy below (jormungandr)
use strat when jor inf set up, put it undergorund. whenever you set up raveners mawloc trygon or trygon prime. any no of its unit can be set up within the tunnels, 3 inch from burrowing unit ,9 inch away enemy. 


This stratgem is very interesting. This one is good. Regular trygons are needed a bit less. Also in competition with the lictor power.

Pheromone trail:

Spoiler:
1cp pheromone trail
choose when nid inf set up as reinf/reserve. if got lictor on battlefield, you can set up wholly within 6 inch of lictor and more than 9 from enemy


Depending in the wording some of these might need a unit to already be in reserve?

Feeder tendrils:

Spoiler:
1cp feeder tendrils
when gene lictor toxi venom kills a chara in fight phase, gain d3 cp


Gain back command points by eating their brain. If this includes genestealers this is amazing when it becomes rellevant.

Implant attack:

Spoiler:
1cp implant attack
use aft nid unit fight in fight phase. roll d6 for each wounded enemy model and not slain. 2+ suffer , model suffers a mw


Yes yes yes. Finish of something that ends up on 1 life.

Endless Swarm:

Spoiler:
2cp Endless Swarm 
Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy


If you have to pay points in addition to command points this one is a bit bad. To bad for hydra.

Call the Brood:
Spoiler:
3cp Call the Brood
end of move. add a new unit of up to 5 genestealers, wholly within 6 of a brood or infestation node but more than 9 from enemy


Same problem as above.

Sporefield:
Spoiler:
3cp sporefield 
after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy


Same as above. But some armies has great movement. This can stop them from moving more then 11 inches right are you. Can supply the biovore /deny movement strategy if they get first turn. Now you can at least contain them at 11 inches.

Digestive Denial:
Spoiler:
2cp Digestive Denial
After deployment but before turn start. choose a piece of terrain othre than fortifciation. 
Units fullywithin or on this piece of terrain do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. 


If this last the entire game. Wow.

Pathogenic slime:
Spoiler:
2cp pathogenic slime
shooting phase. select nid mon. increase dmg of its attack by for this phase.


Good for a dakke fex / hive tyrants / tyranofex shooting something.

Single minded annihilation:

Spoiler:
2cp single minded annihilation
end of shoot phase, choose inf unit, shoot again (Was this non MC's?)


Probably the best stratagem, and will be the most used. Good with 30 man gaunt squad out of reserves, a big unit of hiveguards or biovores.

Power of the hive mind:
Spoiler:
1cp power of the hive mind
end of psyk phase, choose a nid spyker that casted earlier, can cast 1 additional power


Flexabilaty. Yes please.

Rapid regen:

[url]-2cp rapid regen
end of mov, heal d3[/url]

There will be games when you want to heal your warlord. Swarmlord for instance. If this can heal tyrant guards back to life and respawn units you can perhaps keep your Swarm Lord slightly safe.

---

Tyranids ranged weapons has always been a limited selection. It looks like that has been better.

Heavy venom canon are now d3 S9 Ap2 3damage

This means carnifexes and hive tyrants get something akin to a lascannon.

Tyranofex rupture cannon is heavy 3, s10 ap-3 d6 damage. Acid spray 18" 2D6 hits. It stil shoots 2x if you do not move. While acid spray is never in range, that would be a 4d6 attack. But 6 lascannon shots of a stationary rupture cannon is good.

Hiveguards, biovores and exochrines joins the above mentioned to actually have ranged options.

Deathspitters supossably droped by a couple of points, meaning it is better on warriors and raveners.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:11:57


Post by: Amishprn86


Its been posted on page one already


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:25:11


Post by: Niiai


Page 1 does not include my stratigic insight.

I also would like to include my sources, not all of that was one page 1 when I started writing. Also lordhikaru deserves a big thanks for taking the time to write it up. Always include your sources.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:28:15


Post by: Cephalobeard


Tyranofex shooting twice seems pretty brutal now. A few Kronos Fex's sitting in the backfield will tear heavy armor apart.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:33:13


Post by: Niiai


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Tyranofex shooting twice seems pretty brutal now. A few Kronos Fex's sitting in the backfield will tear heavy armor apart.


I don't know about that. If it shoots 6 times, you roll an averadge 1. For a total 1 re-roll. Leviathan on the other hand is garanteed 1 re-roll and 1 re-roll to wound. If course if you are fiering the spikes you have more dice but you only care about the lascannon.

I suppose that is how it is worded 'shoot twice' should not be interpeted as activaing leviathan 2 times.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:37:22


Post by: Cephalobeard


 Niiai wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Tyranofex shooting twice seems pretty brutal now. A few Kronos Fex's sitting in the backfield will tear heavy armor apart.


I don't know about that. If it shoots 6 times, you roll an averadge 1. For a total 1 re-roll. Leviathan on the other hand is garanteed 1 re-roll and 1 re-roll to wound. If course if you are fiering the spikes you have more dice but you only care about the lascannon.

I suppose that is how it is worded 'shoot twice' should not be interpeted as activaing leviathan 2 times.


Depending on how it's worded, if you use the "shoot twice" stratagem it's entirely possible it becomes 12 shots, though. Suddenly rerolling the 1s is an attractive bonus.

Edit: Nevermind I forgot it's infantry only. Carry on.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:43:30


Post by: Niiai


But the shooting stratgem specifies a non monster, at least one of the rumours said this. If that, it is a no go.

Although I would think you are spot on in a unit of hive guards. 6 hive guards already roll 2 1's. 4's if you use the stratagem. 3 and 6 respectivly if you have a 9 man unit. so there Kronos win out.

On smaller units I think the 2x reroll hit and wound is about the same, or slightly better then re-rolling 1's for shooting.

As stated earlier the stratagem will be good with hive guards, biovores and dakka gaunts. (180 dice gaunts? Oh my. It is almost like playing the exalted role playing game at high levels.) I suppose ravaners or warrior groups also can be good with this.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:48:53


Post by: Amishprn86


 Niiai wrote:
Page 1 does not include my stratigic insight.

I also would like to include my sources, not all of that was one page 1 when I started writing. Also lordhikaru deserves a big thanks for taking the time to write it up. Always include your sources.


Lol.. ok, but there was a source, i dont mean to be a dick or anything, just dont like people re-posting the same thing over and over again.

I saw the rules and ignore everything you said, i didnt even realize you added your 0.02c b.c i didnt want to re-read rules, next time make a spoiler of the rules and then have you thoughts out of the spoiler so we can read what your thinking about.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:50:21


Post by: Niiai


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Page 1 does not include my stratigic insight.

I also would like to include my sources, not all of that was one page 1 when I started writing. Also lordhikaru deserves a big thanks for taking the time to write it up. Always include your sources.


Lol.. ok, but there was a source, i dont mean to be a dick or anything, just dont like people re-posting the same thing over and over again.

I saw the rules and ignore everything you said, i didnt even realize you added your 0.02c b.c i didnt want to re-read rules, next time make a spoiler of the rules and then have you thoughts out of the spoiler so we can read what your thinking about.


Spoiler. Right. That is good. I will eddit that in. :-)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 14:50:40


Post by: Astmeister


The Kronos ability will be good with Exocrines though. 12 shots on 3+ with a reroll 1 is pretty hard.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 15:24:25


Post by: Xenomancers


Why no love for tervigons and warriors?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 15:31:19


Post by: Niiai


 Xenomancers wrote:
Why no love for tervigons and warriors?


I think they have a lot of love. Even if the profiles are not changed they get a huge benefit. Leaviatan is good with tervigon that is horrible in mellee. Jormungals always in cover is good to keep them alive. They never get cover othervice. Kraken might be good with a wall of gaunts. Fall back and heal them back up to 30, shoot what you where fighting in your fight phase, and charge back in to lock them in combat again. Perhaps not the best use of kraken.

3 man units of warriors are very good with Leviathan. Jormunghard also gives 3+ save. Jormunghard stratagem and the lictor deploylment is good with warriors I think. The S5 got cheaper? Perhaps even venom cannon got better?

Edit: After reading spolettas comment below: Wow. Deathspitter 24" range is good. In addition to warriors this can also work very well for ravaner. A ravaner if not changed in points is 31 points - the new discount. 5 attacks mellee, 24" range heavy bolter. That seems good.

If venom cannon is 36", assault d3, S8, AP-2 damage 1. Can help out in the shooting department for taking down big targets. Not sure if the venom cannen is better then deathspitter though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 15:41:20


Post by: Spoletta


Warriors did get some love:
Deathspitters got cheaper and the range was extended to 24".
Venom cannon got 1 more AP.
Extended synapse range.


I can see them really well with a spitter and swords, with a prime for 2+ and reroll 1's from tactic.
Also, Gorgon would be really nice. Unit of 9 with venom glands, strategem for venom on 5+ and stratagem to fight again. I've got to math this out, but i think that we are threathening an IK easily.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, no. For some reason i understood that we had a stratagem to fight twice. Without it they take ONLY 13 wounds off a knight,


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:15:26


Post by: Insectum7


Spoletta wrote:
Warriors did get some love:
Deathspitters got cheaper and the range was extended to 24".
Venom cannon got 1 more AP.
Extended synapse range.


I can see them really well with a spitter and swords, with a prime for 2+ and reroll 1's from tactic.
Also, Gorgon would be really nice. Unit of 9 with venom glands, strategem for venom on 5+ and stratagem to fight again. I've got to math this out, but i think that we are threathening an IK easily.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, no. For some reason i understood that we had a stratagem to fight twice. Without it they take ONLY 13 wounds off a knight,



24" tange on Deathspitters is awesome, though AFAIK they'd only be hitting on 3+ with Primes. Unless of course they got another point of BS.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:42:42


Post by: wyomingfox


Just posted:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/30/tyranid-codex-preview-synapse-instinctive-behaviour-and-the-shadow-in-the-warp-oct-30gw-homepage-post-2/


For starters, Shadow in the Warp now affects all enemy Psykers within 18″ as opposed to 12″, while Synapse works on all friendly units from the same hive fleet within 12″ rather than 8″.

While Synapse coverage is easier to achieve than ever, thanks to this boost in range, Instinctive Behaviour has been changed in order to be less punishing:

Firstly, Instinctive Behaviour only triggers when the unit in question is more than 24″ away from a Synapse unit. This allows you much more flexibility when moving your units, and essentially gives single-model units (like the Trygon) a 24″ Synapse range, as they don’t need to worry about Morale anyway!

Secondly, Instinctive Behaviour doesn’t force you to ONLY shoot or charge the nearest unit; instead, you suffer penalties to your charge rolls and shooting. This means that in the later rounds of the game, when the enemy may have crippled your Synapse coverage, you’ll still be able to maintain a level of control over your army.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:46:14


Post by: Marmatag


What's the faction of the Swarmlord? Trying to decide how to build my newest Tyrant.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:48:58


Post by: Overread


I like the way Synapse is moving from a punishment to a bonus and how its far more viable to operate without it. You still want it, but if you get a whole blasted in the army its not going to totally scupper your plans.

I think it should also make armies more hostile; no more camping a synapse unit with the artillery; no more having to always have to push a synapse up for deep strikes.

Of course most Tyranid players are going to keep that strong synapse coverage, but its not longer cripplingly punishing to lose


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:52:07


Post by: Tyran


 Marmatag wrote:
What's the faction of the Swarmlord? Trying to decide how to build my newest Tyrant.

According to the leaks, it doesn't have a faction, although it does have a fixed warlord trait (that kinda sucks).




Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 16:56:19


Post by: Marmatag


Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
What's the faction of the Swarmlord? Trying to decide how to build my newest Tyrant.

According to the leaks, it doesn't have a faction, although it does have a fixed warlord trait (that kinda sucks).


Yeah, but you can still take advantage of its main ability even if it isn't your warlord.

I guess my point is, I don't want to model him and be restricted to a specific army tactic. I would definitely want to use the salamanders tactic at first glance.

So i would see myself running him but not as my warlord. Although, i'll need clarity on what "redeploy" means. If it works like alpha legion where you already know if you're going first, that's absolutely huge, since he'll be guaranteed a first turn charge, if you go first.

If going first:
1. Re-Deploy swarmlord.
2. Pop out tyrannocite.
3. Spit out 20 genestealers
4. Use swarmlord ability to move genestealers in shooting phase, move swarmlord forward as normal.
5. Charge with everything, getting every charge guaranteed.

Yes?

But again this all depends. If bringing Swarmy forces you to take on a garbage army tactic is it worth it?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:08:49


Post by: Dynas


Am I understanding this right. If I take my warlord and make it have the Relic Norn Queen, it has a 30" Radius for Synapse? That's the whole table except the very edges. You could effectively not have to worry about synapse at all, just take the one warlord and then not worry about taking warriors, primes, etc...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:12:22


Post by: Marmatag


Dynas wrote:
Am I understanding this right. If I take my warlord and make it have the Relic Norn Queen, it has a 30" Radius for Synapse? That's the whole table except the very edges. You could effectively not have to worry about synapse at all, just take the one warlord and then not worry about taking warriors, primes, etc...


Well i mean if your warlord dies you have to worry about synapse.

Do you have something in mind that's 9 or less wounds for your warlord? And is that worth it?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:18:04


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Am I understanding this right. If I take my warlord and make it have the Relic Norn Queen, it has a 30" Radius for Synapse? That's the whole table except the very edges. You could effectively not have to worry about synapse at all, just take the one warlord and then not worry about taking warriors, primes, etc...


Well i mean if your warlord dies you have to worry about synapse.

Do you have something in mind that's 9 or less wounds for your warlord? And is that worth it?

I think the issue here is that your best units are synapse creatures. Why would you not want to include lots of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Warriors did get some love:
Deathspitters got cheaper and the range was extended to 24".
Venom cannon got 1 more AP.
Extended synapse range.


I can see them really well with a spitter and swords, with a prime for 2+ and reroll 1's from tactic.
Also, Gorgon would be really nice. Unit of 9 with venom glands, strategem for venom on 5+ and stratagem to fight again. I've got to math this out, but i think that we are threathening an IK easily.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, no. For some reason i understood that we had a stratagem to fight twice. Without it they take ONLY 13 wounds off a knight,

Cheaper deathspitters is a welcome change. We also have the ability to put a prime on the front lines with warriors too with a command point. Sorry - warriors are my favorite unit. I'd really like to be able to spam them lol.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:25:47


Post by: Dynas


 Marmatag wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Am I understanding this right. If I take my warlord and make it have the Relic Norn Queen, it has a 30" Radius for Synapse? That's the whole table except the very edges. You could effectively not have to worry about synapse at all, just take the one warlord and then not worry about taking warriors, primes, etc...


Well i mean if your warlord dies you have to worry about synapse.

Do you have something in mind that's 9 or less wounds for your warlord? And is that worth it?


Malanthrope. Just thinking at loud.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:28:45


Post by: Lance845


 Niiai wrote:
Page 1 does not include my stratigic insight.

I also would like to include my sources, not all of that was one page 1 when I started writing. Also lordhikaru deserves a big thanks for taking the time to write it up. Always include your sources.


He does. Rumors were so fast last night that I didn't have the time to attribute each rumor to it's source and I just sort of gave up for a but just trying to keep it all organized. Strategic Info will replace the rumors once the book releases in the first post. By all means if you want to organize it in the thread and keep it updated I will add it to the OP when the time is right.

Also https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/30/tyranid-codex-preview-synapse-instinctive-behaviour-and-the-shadow-in-the-warp-oct-30gw-homepage-post-2/

You don't NEED to be in synapse to not have IB.

Synapse gives you auto moral test pass. at 12" by defualt (confirmed) and 18 on tyrants (rumored).
IB takes effect if you are more than 24" away from a synapse creature (otherwise works as rumored (confirmed)
SITW is up to 18" away from any unit with this ability.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:34:25


Post by: Marmatag


Are Hormagaunts or Termagaunts getting a price cut? Or an adjustment?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:36:53


Post by: Lance845


That means the rumored Norn Crown extending the IB negating effect to 30" is only an additional 6. Not the greatest in the world.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:41:15


Post by: Niiai


You are doing a very good job Lance. If I end up with anything to include in the OP I would like to post it. Currently I needed to sort out my thoughts. Writing about it helps it. I suspect other people are in the same situation.

What hive rule is best with what unit for instance. Exochrine with is better with Krono, and Lasercannon Tyranofex is better with Leaviathan.

Behemot is good wirth gargoyles and hormagaunts. 1 command point for 6 mortral wounds, yes please! Hydra or Gorgon is best with genstealers etc.

With so many good stratagems I think a brigade detcahement might actually be usefull for the 12 command points. Dakka raveners, lictors, ripper swarms and biovores quickly fill out the rooster. The only difficult possition is the HQ choise.

Neuronthrope, Malanthrope and Tyranid Warrior Prime can do the trick. If all the small units are support role you stil have points left for a big unit and/or a big gunbeast in the backline.

If a list can press in a 4th HQ we can probably have even more stratgem points. Or drip our feet into having suporting cultists.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:47:52


Post by: Spoletta


Take a tyrant + gorgon fleet + venom glands + reaper of obliterax + gorgon stratagem + reroll wound stratagem = 5 attacks hitting on rerollable 2+, S6 rerollable, 3D AP2, 4D on 5 to wound and 7D on 6 to Wound.

Averages 9 wounds on a stormraven.

I'm gonna call him the Gorgon Reaper

For additional fun you can give him the gorgon warlord trait and inflict an additional MW on 4+.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:55:13


Post by: Marmatag


With this stratagem can you really get 180 shots out of a termagaunt squad


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 17:58:04


Post by: Razerous


How much more sturdy are Hive Tyrants now?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:00:23


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:08:29


Post by: Lance845


Razerous wrote:
How much more sturdy are Hive Tyrants now?


Significantly. The extra point of toughness is actually at one of the 3ish critical average tipping points for str vs toughness.

T3 vs T4 with the prevalence of str3/4 infantry guns and melee. Str T5/6/7 with the lower end of anti tank being str 6 and Taus many str 5 things. the next teir is T8/9 for the really big guns.

Now that tyrants are T7 only the biggest guns will hurt us on a 3+ and those double str power fist like things hitting with str 12 will be just as effective. Enemies need str 14 to wound on a 2+

Add in 2 extra wounds and increase our 5++ to 4++.

Jormungr Walkrants will have a 2+ armor save to shooting.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:09:24


Post by: Razerous


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.
Wait, have MC devourers changed?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:11:09


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Razerous wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.
Wait, have MC devourers changed?


Doubled in shots. MC devourers are 6 shots each, so 24 shots for 4. MC deathspitters stay 3 shots each, but have +1S and AP -1.

The rumored costs put a BS 3+ dakkafex at 106, 116 with -1 to hit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:11:29


Post by: Lance845


Razerous wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.
Wait, have MC devourers changed?


Rumored to have doubled their shots.

Deathspitters remain unchanged besides price.

Devs are 6 shots but otherwise unchanged besides price.

Deathspitter have -1 AP. Devs have just way more dice.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:14:17


Post by: Spoletta


Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:17:43


Post by: Marmatag


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Because 2x Devourers per fex is now 24 shots. That's pretty nifty. But at 18".

Comparing to Razorback (which doesn't move), and neither has access to rerolls:

Against 2+ save, the razorback wins, 33% more effective.
Against 3+ save, it's even.
Against 4+ save, the dakkafex is 13% more effective.
Against 5+ save, the dakkafex is 20% more effective.
Against 6+ save, the dakkafex is 25% more effective.

Built purely for this dakka and nothing else in its utility belt, the Dakkafex is cheaper, as well, but doesn't transport troops, although that hardly matters.

Solid buff. Gonna "spam" these.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:18:31


Post by: Spoletta


I was right!


3Cp adrenaline surge

end of fight phase. select a nid unit from army, can immediately fight again

We do have a stratagem to fight twice!

This makes everything SOOOO easy!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:18:55


Post by: Tyran


Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


Unless the fleshborer hive has been changed, two dakkafexes will do the same job better.

The one that seems good is the Acid Spray with 2D6 shots.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:20:17


Post by: Spoletta


Tyran wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


Unless the fleshborer hive has been changed, two dakkafexes will do the same job better.

The one that seems good is the Acid Spray with 2D6 shots.


Going to math this out, gimme a second.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:22:42


Post by: Marmatag


Two dakkafexes is 48 strength 6 ap0 1dmg shots at 18" for under 200 points.

I see the Tyrannofex as a longer range shooter with his big str gun.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:23:49


Post by: Niiai


Spoletta wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


Unless the fleshborer hive has been changed, two dakkafexes will do the same job better.

The one that seems good is the Acid Spray with 2D6 shots.


Going to math this out, gimme a second.



You might consider this as well:

-1cp scorch bugs
shoot phase
seelect nid, +1 to wound for all feshborer or fleshborer hive attacks

Also, what hive fleet do you use? Krono with re-rolling 1 seems superior with the hive. Also, remember the acid spray is 4D6 when he stands stil. Ouch. Could be a good way to take down airplanes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:30:07


Post by: Insectum7


The tunneling strategem for Jorgunmandr seems great. At the moment I think that settles my Hive Fleet choice to start out with, and I see a Trygon in my near future.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:33:48


Post by: Spoletta


Fleshborer Hive +1 to wound vs devourer:

T3 modifier: 1 (2+ vs 2+)
T4 Modifier: 1,25 (2+ vs 3+)
T5 modifier: 1 (3+ vs 3+)
T6 modifier: 1 (4+ vs 4+)
T7 modifier: 1,5 (4+ vs 5+)
T8 modifier: 1,5 (4+ vs 5+)

Stinger vs devourer:

T3 modifier: 0,8 (3+ vs 2+)
T4 Modifier: 1 (3+ vs 3+)
T5 modifier: 0,75 (4+ vs 3+)
T6 modifier: 0,66 (5+ vs 4+)
T7 modifier: 1 (5+ vs 5+)
T8 modifier: 1 (5+ vs 5+)

You get 40 shots of the first and 8 of the second, versus 48 shots of devourer. This translates to:

Against T3 the Tfex inflicts 97,5% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T4 the Tfex inflicts 121,8% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T5 the Tfex inflicts 96,9% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T6 the Tfex inflicts 95,9% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T7 the Tfex inflicts 143,7% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T8 the Tfex inflicts 143,7% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes


The Tfex is a LOT better against high T targets, better against MEQ and slightly worse against the other targets.

Save is not considered since all weapons have no AP.

Naturally this is without the +1 damage stratagem (which you can't use on both Cfexes at the same time), in that case feel free to double those figures.
The Tfex is less mobile, but is much more deadlier.

Edit: Stinger salvo is AP1, but i don't want to make all the cases for all armor values and it doesn't change much the result.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:41:58


Post by: Niiai


Spoletta wrote:
Fleshborer Hive +1 to wound vs devourer:

T3 modifier: 1 (2+ vs 2+)
T4 Modifier: 1,25 (2+ vs 3+)
T5 modifier: 1 (3+ vs 3+)
T6 modifier: 1 (4+ vs 4+)
T7 modifier: 1,5 (4+ vs 5+)
T8 modifier: 1,5 (4+ vs 5+)

Stinger vs devourer:

T3 modifier: 0,8 (3+ vs 2+)
T4 Modifier: 1 (3+ vs 3+)
T5 modifier: 0,75 (4+ vs 3+)
T6 modifier: 0,66 (5+ vs 4+)
T7 modifier: 1 (5+ vs 5+)
T8 modifier: 1 (5+ vs 5+)

You get 40 shots of the first and 8 of the second, versus 48 shots of devourer. This translates to:

Against T3 the Tfex inflicts 97,5% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T4 the Tfex inflicts 121,8% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T5 the Tfex inflicts 96,9% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T6 the Tfex inflicts 95,9% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T7 the Tfex inflicts 143,7% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes
Against T8 the Tfex inflicts 143,7% of the wounds of 2 dakkafes


The Tfex is a LOT better against high T targets, better against MEQ and slightly worse against the other targets.

Save is not considered since all weapons have no AP.

Naturally this is without the +1 damage stratagem (which you can't use on both Cfexes at the same time), in that case feel free to double those figures.
The Tfex is less mobile, but is much more deadlier.

Edit: Stinger salvo is AP1, but i don't want to make all the cases for all armor values and it doesn't change much the result.



But shurely you would need to divide the resoult by the cost of the unit. Witch we don't have at the moment.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:42:57


Post by: Spoletta


 Niiai wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


Unless the fleshborer hive has been changed, two dakkafexes will do the same job better.

The one that seems good is the Acid Spray with 2D6 shots.


Going to math this out, gimme a second.



You might consider this as well:

-1cp scorch bugs
shoot phase
seelect nid, +1 to wound for all feshborer or fleshborer hive attacks

Also, what hive fleet do you use? Krono with re-rolling 1 seems superior with the hive. Also, remember the acid spray is 4D6 when he stands stil. Ouch. Could be a good way to take down airplanes.


With +1 damage those 4d6 become 10,5 unsaved wounds on a T7 3+ target. There is also around 1 wound from the stinger salvos (with -1 to hit). The average is quite close to downing anything flimsier than a storm raven, and even there with a bit of luck (or a reroll on the worst of those 4d6) you can take it down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Niiai wrote:


But shurely you would need to divide the resoult by the cost of the unit. Witch we don't have at the moment.


We actually have a lot of informations on this.
2 dakkafexes clock around 200 points and an hive Tfex is around 225.

What instead we should consider is that for 10 points those dakkafexes can get a +1 to BS, which makes everything better.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:56:38


Post by: Marmatag


I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 18:59:43


Post by: Tyran


 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:01:37


Post by: Marmatag


Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:02:53


Post by: Tyran


 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.

The keywords of the Swarmlord was something that was explicitly asked and answered in the leaks.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:04:14


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.

Old one eye I could see being restricted - though I have no idea what hive fleet he's rumored to come from. The swarmlord though - should not be a unique character - every hive fleet has swarm-lords. He might have a restricted warlord trait though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:05:17


Post by: Spoletta


It has already been confirmed, our named chars are not restricted to any fleet. They are restricted in the warlord traits though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:05:23


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.

Old one eye I could see being restricted - though I have no idea what hive fleet he's rumored to come from. The swarmlord though - should not be a unique character - every hive fleet has swarm-lords. He might have a restricted warlord trait though.


The Swarmlord does have a restricted warlord trait. But i actually like it.

The question with these new army tactics though, is it 1 formation like a brigade, or two detachments, for separate hive fleet tactics.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:05:28


Post by: Xenomancers


Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.

The keywords of the Swarmlord was something that was explicitly asked and answered in the leaks.

Being a named character doesn't restrict your use to a single hive fleet - that is what he is worried about.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:08:28


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm still super concerned our named HQs are going to be restricted to a specific hive fleet.

They have restricted warlord traits (which sucks), but as far as I'm aware they aren't restricted to hive fleets (or at the very least the Swarmlord isn't).


How do you know for certain? If the Swarmlord isn't then Old One Eye probably isn't either.

The keywords of the Swarmlord was something that was explicitly asked and answered in the leaks.

Being a named character doesn't restrict your use to a single hive fleet - that is what he is worried about.

Yes in a general sense.

For ex, is Eldrad restricted to a specific craftworld? that would be a good indicator.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:17:14


Post by: KurtAngle2


OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:18:32


Post by: Lance845


Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


You will never get 40 shots. The Hives are only range 18" I think. An enemy would have to willingly move within 18" of you and then choose not to charge. The Tyrannofex will be blasted off the board from longer range or will get so tied up in a melee that is never fires it's guns once all game. For about the same points you could almost bring a full broods of devil gaunts shooting 60 times rerolling 1s, at the same range, without having to stand still.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:19:27


Post by: Marmatag


KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:19:44


Post by: Arson Fire


 Xenomancers wrote:

Old one eye I could see being restricted - though I have no idea what hive fleet he's rumored to come from.

In the fluff, old one eye is from Behemoth. Although the fluff does mention that reports of carnifexes with a similar description have appeared across many other areas.

I highly suspect that none of the tyranid characters will be limited to a particular hive fleet. There are only four of them (unless more have been added, which I'm sure we would have heard about by now), so there aren't enough to give every fleet at least one.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:21:41


Post by: Lance845


I didn't bother posting the bit about OOE and Swarmlord not being tied to fleets because it's not a change. It is true though. They continue to be able to be taken by any fleet. OOE however DOES get the behemouth WL trait regardless (acording to the rumors... haven't seen the sheet myself).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:21:53


Post by: Spoletta


 Marmatag wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.


It has been confirmed on the other forum by the same guy who gave us most of the spoiler (lordhiraku).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:29:12


Post by: Marmatag


Spoletta wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.


It has been confirmed on the other forum by the same guy who gave us most of the spoiler (lordhiraku).


Ok, thank you. Sorry for the noise everyone. This is just important for planning purposes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:31:45


Post by: Lance845


If all of this shapes up to be really true I am most excited for our general balance. I don't see anything in the leaks that looks like it's incredibly broken. There is no option we have that looks like it entirely dominates the table. and brings the uber cheese.

We look to have many viable options available to us for a really strong internal balance they can deal with just about any threat depending on how you build for a very excellent external balance.

That is the best possible scenario. Nids might just be the most balanced dex so far. I am ecstatic.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:34:41


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Because 2x Devourers per fex is now 24 shots. That's pretty nifty. But at 18".

Comparing to Razorback (which doesn't move), and neither has access to rerolls:

Against 2+ save, the razorback wins, 33% more effective.
Against 3+ save, it's even.
Against 4+ save, the dakkafex is 13% more effective.
Against 5+ save, the dakkafex is 20% more effective.
Against 6+ save, the dakkafex is 25% more effective.

Built purely for this dakka and nothing else in its utility belt, the Dakkafex is cheaper, as well, but doesn't transport troops, although that hardly matters.

Solid buff. Gonna "spam" these.


Dakkafex has 18" range, but fires at full when moving, with 7" move, so can effectively put its fire down more flexibly, however the razor can move 12 and fire at 4+, and has much better access to rerolls. It's very comparable, though I'd give advantage to razorback.

However, You did your math wrong somewhere. Both are BS3+

Against T7
2+ Both are .88
3+ AC 1.33, Dev 1.77
4+ AC 1.7, Dev 2.6
5+ AC 2.22, Dev 3.55
6+ AC 2.66, Dev 4.44

Dakkafex should be 6 pts more than the razorback. 16 more with the -1 to hit, which you should always take, as it effectively makes the Carnifex 9-16W depending on BS of firing units.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:38:36


Post by: Lance845


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Because 2x Devourers per fex is now 24 shots. That's pretty nifty. But at 18".

Comparing to Razorback (which doesn't move), and neither has access to rerolls:

Against 2+ save, the razorback wins, 33% more effective.
Against 3+ save, it's even.
Against 4+ save, the dakkafex is 13% more effective.
Against 5+ save, the dakkafex is 20% more effective.
Against 6+ save, the dakkafex is 25% more effective.

Built purely for this dakka and nothing else in its utility belt, the Dakkafex is cheaper, as well, but doesn't transport troops, although that hardly matters.

Solid buff. Gonna "spam" these.


Dakkafex has 18" move, but fires at full when moving, with 7" move, so can effectively put its fire down more flexibly, however the razor can move 12 and fire at 4+, and has much better access to rerolls. It's very comparable, though I'd give advantage to razorback.

However, You did your math wrong somewhere. Both are BS3+

Against T7
2+ Both are .88
3+ AC 1.33, Dev 1.77
4+ AC 1.7, Dev 2.6
5+ AC 2.22, Dev 3.55
6+ AC 2.66, Dev 4.44

Dakkafex should be 6 pts more than the razorback. 16 more with the -1 to hit, which you should always take, as it effectively makes the Carnifex 9-16W depending on BS of firing units.


Wait... wut? I think you mean the razorback has a 18" or that dakafex has a 18" range.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:43:13


Post by: Xenomancers


Are Carnifex BS 3+ now?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:43:54


Post by: Niiai


So the thornback:

'-dont have much info on the thornback other than at the end of combat roll d6 for each enemy unit in combat with it. on 6 deal 1 mortal wound
-Thornbacks are base 70.
Starts with 2 devourers with brainleech worm
And a pair of monstrous scything talons
And a chitin biomorph'

What is Chitin biomorph? What makes the Thornback different then the carnifex?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are Carnifex BS 3+ now?


From my understanding they get +1 to hit on the turn they charge. So you hit on 3+.

Edit: Lol, thought you meant WS. BS4+ I belive. But go Lieviathan for that nice re-roll, or Kronos and stand stil.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:53:10


Post by: Tyran


The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 19:55:34


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Lance845 wrote:

Wait... wut? I think you mean the razorback has a 18" or that dakafex has a 18" range.


I obviously meant 18" range on dakkafex. Typo. Fixed.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:03:57


Post by: Marmatag


Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:09:04


Post by: pinecone77


 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?
I like speedy, but local meta might be a 'thing" (ie: AM pewpews vs 3+ saves? mighty tempting)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:12:51


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.


Right, for some reason I didn't even consider you did the math with 4+. That should have been obvious. My bad.

With the cost of the BS upgrade being so low, there's almost no reason not to take it on dakkafex. It's roughly a 10% cost increase for far more than a 10% damage increase.

Same for the spore cysts. They give more than 10% durability (According to earlier thread math, which I haven't checked, worst case scenario they add ~20% durability in the worst case scenario) for about 10% cost increase.

With the IB being invalidated within 24" as well, Dakkafex can operate outside of your Malanthrope bubble safely, making deployment much more flexible.

4-6 of these will probably be the base of any competitive Tyranid list.

As for Hive Fleet... Kronos will be useful likely turn 2 onward, while Jormungandr will reduce their incoming damage from AP-3 shots by 20%. Leviathan is less useful because of the high output fire, and charging is likely the last thing you'll want to do with these (Although with the mortal wound, they can pile in to help finish something off, for sure).

We may start seeing lists with 90+ termagants screening 4-6 dakkafex, a mess of hive guard and some exocrines.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:23:21


Post by: Spoletta


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.


Right, for some reason I didn't even consider you did the math with 4+. That should have been obvious. My bad.

With the cost of the BS upgrade being so low, there's almost no reason not to take it on dakkafex. It's roughly a 10% cost increase for far more than a 10% damage increase.

Same for the spore cysts. They give more than 10% durability (According to earlier thread math, which I haven't checked, worst case scenario they add ~20% durability in the worst case scenario) for about 10% cost increase.

With the IB being invalidated within 24" as well, Dakkafex can operate outside of your Malanthrope bubble safely, making deployment much more flexible.

4-6 of these will probably be the base of any competitive Tyranid list.

As for Hive Fleet... Kronos will be useful likely turn 2 onward, while Jormungandr will reduce their incoming damage from AP-3 shots by 20%. Leviathan is less useful because of the high output fire, and charging is likely the last thing you'll want to do with these (Although with the mortal wound, they can pile in to help finish something off, for sure).

We may start seeing lists with 90+ termagants screening 4-6 dakkafex, a mess of hive guard and some exocrines.


Those will be the base of shooty nids list, but i can easily see this dex being the first one succesfully deploying competitive full assault lists.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:23:36


Post by: Xenomancers


The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:25:05


Post by: Marmatag


Still feel like 30 termagaunts popping out of the ground and firing 180 shots with the stratagem being pretty deadly. Especially if you get some rerolls involved.

Hormagaunts just don't seem worth it when you can take genestealers anyway.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:25:41


Post by: wyomingfox


 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


Magnetize...always magnetize TMC


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:26:24


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:32:23


Post by: Spoletta


 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.


The tail no longer works like that, now it makes d3 attacks on it's own and that's it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:35:41


Post by: Marmatag


Spoletta wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.


The tail no longer works like that, now it makes d3 attacks on it's own and that's it.


Oh, my bad. So, not as threatening in melee, but still has all that dakka.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:43:26


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.
Dude this thing gets -1 to hit and puts out 24 str6 shots for like 116 points at bs 3 with assault weapons Most likely with the always in cover trait...essentially has a 2+ save too. It's more than durable enough for the firepower it puts out. Again I am not complaining - I will abuse this it's just sad that we already have such an outlier of power. Just the change to BS 3+ is all we needed.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:50:28


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.
Dude this thing gets -1 to hit and puts out 24 str6 shots for like 116 points at bs 3 with assault weapons Most likely with the always in cover trait...essentially has a 2+ save too. It's more than durable enough for the firepower it puts out. Again I am not complaining - I will abuse this it's just sad that we already have such an outlier of power. Just the change to BS 3+ is all we needed.


So, I was wrong about the tail, it's just a flat D3 not D3 per attack.

The always cover trait will probably never apply to this guy...And 18" range means you're in range of the entire opposing army's big shooting. 8 wounds means it dies *fast* once it can deal damage.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:52:54


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
Still feel like 30 termagaunts popping out of the ground and firing 180 shots with the stratagem being pretty deadly. Especially if you get some rerolls involved.

Hormagaunts just don't seem worth it when you can take genestealers anyway.


Because hormagaunts have 6" pile in and consolidate. With how flexible the charge rules are, you can very easily tie up an entire gunline in one charge using them.

They aren't going to kill anything, but that's not what you use them for.

For 450 pts you can put 90 bodies on the field that will never, ever suffer morale. Most armies will have a lot of trouble removing this many bodies. Armies that fail to remove this many bodies will spend most of the rest of the game falling back or wasting time smashing 5 pt bugs. For armies that are only mildly annoyed by falling back, 90 bodies will still push them off of objectives and box them in.

That leaves you 1000-1500 pts to fit as much damage dealing into your list as possible. With 45/70 (Conflicting rumors) neurothrope HQs, we have access to cheap or relatively cheap smite spam that is also the synapse we need for our forces.

Dakkafexes/devgaunts put out enough firepower to clear all other screens in the game. Exocrines/Hive Guard and possibly Tyrannofex may have some actually cost efficient anti-tank shooting.

Hive fleet Kronos has a pretty legitimate 1CP strat to help shut down a critical cast (and a warlord trait that can severely punish other smite spam armies). Also access to rerolls for some of our better cost-efficient support units.

Jormungandr gives a decent durability buff to everything in the army. A 6+ to a 5+ (Gants vs AP0, MCs vs AP-3) doesn't sound like much, but you pass 2x as many saves and take 20% less damage, on average. Though it is rather unflexible with the limitations.

Behemoth will get those gants in more reliably, and the stratagem is a decent way to throw a few MW out against something like Magnus where you are likely to be able to get 6-12 charging models within 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:

The always cover trait will probably never apply to this guy...And 18" range means you're in range of the entire opposing army's big shooting. 8 wounds means it dies *fast* once it can deal damage.


Disagree entirely. Have used dakkafexes extensively for a very long time, in some very competitive metas/tournaments. Tyranid lists are meant to be built where no single unit is more dangerous than another. If they fire on one thing they're failing to kill another, that offers an equal, if different threat. Dakkafex are very cheap for their damage output and survivability. They're more durable than razorbacks against the vast majority of targets, with no degradation, and razorbacks/Guilleman are basically carrying codex SM at this point in the meta.

Unlike SM, we are looking to be able to easily spam screens and smite, which are the current strongest things in the meta.

If Neurothropes are 45 pts, expect to see a Tyranid list win/place highly at the next major GT using a list with 120-150 gants, 5-10 neurothropes and the rest in dakkafexes. Probably using Kronos fleet.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 20:58:33


Post by: Spoletta


Behemoth is my favorite.
Charging with hormagaunts on a wide line and delivering 4-5 MW? Sign me in.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:05:09


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Spoletta wrote:
Behemoth is my favorite.
Charging with hormagaunts on a wide line and delivering 4-5 MW? Sign me in.


Only roll for a model that gets within 1" on its charge, and only 1 unit. I think it's a good strat, but I don't think you're likely to ever pull more than 2-3 MW out of it. Outside some lucky rolls, of course.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:23:31


Post by: Lance845


Neurothropes have been corrected to be 70 points. According to rumors. Still unconfirmed.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:24:52


Post by: Spoletta


That's why i'm planning on multicharging on a wide line. Doesn't matter though, those little bastards are not there to inflict wounds.

It's the hype on the dakkafexes which i don't undestand completely. This is not 7th where spamming high volume of fire mid strenght shots was the verb. Here 24 bs3+ S6 shots inflict less than 2 wounds on a razorback. For a short range weapon it doesn't sound so good. Sure, it does a number on hordes, but don't expect it to work on vehicles. You will need exocrines, hive guards and Tfexes for that.

They fit really well in combined nids lists though, since they combine being a menace and being a bad target (same thoughness of a Leman Russ and similar cost per wound, but they also sport a -1 to hit and no degradation. Requires a focus fire from 8 stationary assbacks to go down).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:29:13


Post by: Marmatag


They are lower toughness than leman russ unless they're being buffed to t8?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:31:15


Post by: Lance845


The thodrnback fex isnt anti vehicle loadout. Its anti infantry.

High volume of shot and if you get into melee with it there is a chance for mortal wounds at the end of the fighting. Infantry dont want to leave it shooting but they also dont want to pile in and try to bog it down in melee either.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:36:30


Post by: Niiai


 Lance845 wrote:
The thodrnback fex isnt anti vehicle loadout. Its anti infantry.

High volume of shot and if you get into melee with it there is a chance for mortal wounds at the end of the fighting. Infantry dont want to leave it shooting but they also dont want to pile in and try to bog it down in melee either.



What? Is it not 4+ for each enemy unit near 1" takes 1 mortal wound? Would this not be better vs high T models and not units?

And what is it, just this rule, that makes it different then a carnifex? Can you take any loadout you wan't to? I really have no understanding for this.

Do anybody have a more informative leak on this?

This was what I found:

'Thornbacks are base 70.

at the end of combat roll d6 for each enemy unit in combat with it. on 6 deal 1 mortal wound
Starts with 2 devourers with brainleech worm
It can swap the devourers with deathspitters with maggots

And a pair of monstrous scything talons
It can swap the claws with a stranglethorn only.

And a chitin biomorph'

A regukar carnifex start at 68 points? So for 2 more points you get the explotion abilaty and you loose some options?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:49:29


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Spoletta wrote:
That's why i'm planning on multicharging on a wide line. Doesn't matter though, those little bastards are not there to inflict wounds.

It's the hype on the dakkafexes which i don't undestand completely. This is not 7th where spamming high volume of fire mid strenght shots was the verb. Here 24 bs3+ S6 shots inflict less than 2 wounds on a razorback. For a short range weapon it doesn't sound so good. Sure, it does a number on hordes, but don't expect it to work on vehicles. You will need exocrines, hive guards and Tfexes for that.

They fit really well in combined nids lists though, since they combine being a menace and being a bad target (same thoughness of a Leman Russ and similar cost per wound, but they also sport a -1 to hit and no degradation. Requires a focus fire from 8 stationary assbacks to go down).


You're 100% correct. The big appeal of the dakkafex is that it puts out a lot of wounds for the cost vs basically every target except vehicles. Dakkagants are still more cost efficient against basically every target, but the logistics of getting the # of dakkagants you need to do the same job where you need them, and all the other intangibles such as LoS, positioning, etc, make that less viable, IMO.

In a vacuum, we would theoretically play with nothing but Neurothropes, Hormagaunts and Termagants, as they're our most effective forms of smite, tarpit and damage.

I suppose such a list would do a number on the meta with the complete lack of AT targets, as well. With all of the deployment options that may be coming, it actually might not be a bad list design. A few lictor/ravener units to deliver dakkagant units where you need them. Smite to handle the more durable units. Something to think about.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:51:29


Post by: pinecone77


Something else that might make a comeback is the "gunfex" ie;running cannons on Carnifexen. So instead of 4x Devorers yo take 2x Devourers, and a Venom, or Strangle. It rapidly went out of style, replaced with the beloved Dakkafex. But maybe it can make a comeback!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally...I will be trying to make lists that use Screamer Killers.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:54:38


Post by: xmbk


Are we sure the MC Devourer is 6 attacks, and not 6 attacks for TL? Is the MC Deathspitter S8/AP-2? If so, even at half the attacks it's probably better than they Devourer.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:56:26


Post by: Traceoftoxin


We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:58:37


Post by: Spoletta


Deathspitter is 24" range, that's the only change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
They are lower toughness than leman russ unless they're being buffed to t8?


I totally thought they were T7, guess i got confused with the predators.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 21:59:41


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Spoletta wrote:
Deathspitter is 24" range, that's the only change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
They are lower toughness than leman russ unless they're being buffed to t8?


I totally thought they were T7, guess i got confused with the predators.


Good catch.

Big deal for Warriors, who have access to a halfway decent Venom cannon now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 22:00:02


Post by: xmbk


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 23:07:45


Post by: Traceoftoxin


xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 23:17:54


Post by: dan2026


Tyrannofexes seem like the big winners to me.
Best anti tank shooting in the book.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/30 23:45:49


Post by: Niiai


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Did they change it to heavy? The old is assault, both of them are.

Warrior deathspitter is range 24 (and raveners also) but did it not drop in cost? That is a huge change.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 00:31:28


Post by: xmbk


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Earlier in the thread you said they get +1S/-1AP. Did you mean relative to MC Devourers?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 01:00:41


Post by: Sim-Life


 dan2026 wrote:
Tyrannofexes seem like the big winners to me.
Best anti tank shooting in the book.


Them actually being worth taking for the first time ever feels so wrong.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 02:17:41


Post by: Marmatag


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Yeah if the venomspitter was 12 shots at 8, -2 it would be so freaking good.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 02:26:12


Post by: gigasnail


looks like there was a problem w/ the initially reported hive fleet: leviathan trait. correction from lordhikaru:

"Got occupied yesterday. Any more stuff you all want ?

Found an obvious error on someone's leak. No wonder nobody talked about Leviathan.

Leviathan is a 6+++ fnp 6inch bubble from a friendly synapse unit from same hive fleet. Ignore this if unit affected by Catalyst.

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/53797/codex-rules-preview-updated-summary?page=62#ixzz4x335MGWY"



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 02:41:10


Post by: Galas


So is a straight out worse Ultwhe trait?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 03:35:35


Post by: Marmatag


Yeah, straight up worse, but 6+ FNP across the entire army would be pretty sick.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 04:13:58


Post by: Lance845


 NenkotaMoon wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/30/tyranid-codex-preview-synapse-instinctive-behaviour-and-the-shadow-in-the-warp-oct-30gw-homepage-post-2/


Yup. Already i. The op since this morning when i woke up.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 05:31:01


Post by: Amishprn86


Leviathan 6+++ isnt worth it imo..... UNLESS it can stack, the Eldar one didnt stack tho.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 05:54:09


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Niiai wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Did they change it to heavy? The old is assault, both of them are.

Warrior deathspitter is range 24 (and raveners also) but did it not drop in cost? That is a huge change.


Not heavy as in weapon type, heavy as in name. There is the venom cannon which warriors carry, and the heavy venom cannon which MCs carry.

xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Earlier in the thread you said they get +1S/-1AP. Did you mean relative to MC Devourers?


Yes, I was saying relative to MC Devourers. All of the leaked info is in the OP.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
We're not sure of anything until we have the codex in our hands, but the second leaker checked and confirmed that the deathspitter is unchanged and the devourer is 6 shots per gun, with 4 guns per MC.


12 8/-2 is still superior to 24 S6/0.


Nothing has pointed to deathspitter being that? The Venom cannon is D3 S8 Ap-2 2D and S9 Ap-2 3D for normal and heavy, respectively


Yeah if the venomspitter was 12 shots at 8, -2 it would be so freaking good.


Would be the best by a long shot.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 08:41:39


Post by: Therion


How on earth would anyone compare something to the Razorback.

Nobody in this entire edition used a Razorback that was not getting full re-rolls to hit and to wound from Guilliman. I thought even the most raging casual players knew that basically everything Space Marine sucks ass compared to everything else, unless it's being buffed by Guilliman. The whole point is that Hurricane Bolters on Stormravens, that wound even T7 on a 5+, and Asscans that wound everything at least on a 5+ but mostly better, are good because of the re-roll to wound. Without that, they're garbage. Hurricanes will go out of fashion just because of Astra T8 spam lists.

To me the Dakkafex has the advantage of being able to move without penalty, but that's where it ends.

Where I play every tournament has a 3 max rule to prevent spamming, but I wouldn't really mind even if I saw 9 of those. It's a full tier below the Guilliman's parking lot play style.




Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 09:06:12


Post by: Amishprn86


Fex's can still be taken 3 per 1 Heavy slot at least, if you wanted to spam them 1 heavy detachment could take 2 units of 3 of each Codex Types for a total of 18 fex's

Can forgo 1 unit to gain 1 unit of Stone Crushers for dedicated AT as well and your OOE as HQ.

a total of 19fex, that will be 2k points tho lol, most likely really close to 2k, give or take 50-75pts.

I really like the Stone Crushers for melee AT, S12, re-roll hits and wounds against vehicles anda 4+ to do D3 mortal wounds on the charge (keep the Thresher Scythe b.c you dont have to attack with it, the Bone mace is worst than your normal attacks and you must use it, total not worth it).

Not saying this is good, just showing you can do almost w/e you want for Fex's.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 09:12:28


Post by: Spoletta


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Fex's can still be taken 3 per 1 Heavy slot at least, if you wanted to spam them 1 heavy detachment could take 2 units of 3 of each Codex Types for a total of 18 fex's

Can forgo 1 unit to gain 1 unit of Stone Crushers for dedicated AT as well and your OOE as HQ.

a total of 19fex, that will be 2k points tho lol, most likely really close to 2k, give or take 50-75pts.

I really like the Stone Crushers for melee AT, S12, re-roll hits and wounds against vehicles anda 4+ to do D3 mortal wounds on the charge (keep the Thresher Scythe b.c you dont have to attack with it, the Bone mace is worst than your normal attacks and you must use it, total not worth it).

Not saying this is good, just showing you can do almost w/e you want for Fex's.


Regular scythe fexes might have become better in AT compared to the stonecrusher. On charge they hit on 3+, rerolling ones and with 1 cp reroll wounds. We have to look at the monstrous acid maws too, that AP5 is nice.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 09:40:53


Post by: Amishprn86


Spoletta wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Fex's can still be taken 3 per 1 Heavy slot at least, if you wanted to spam them 1 heavy detachment could take 2 units of 3 of each Codex Types for a total of 18 fex's

Can forgo 1 unit to gain 1 unit of Stone Crushers for dedicated AT as well and your OOE as HQ.

a total of 19fex, that will be 2k points tho lol, most likely really close to 2k, give or take 50-75pts.

I really like the Stone Crushers for melee AT, S12, re-roll hits and wounds against vehicles anda 4+ to do D3 mortal wounds on the charge (keep the Thresher Scythe b.c you dont have to attack with it, the Bone mace is worst than your normal attacks and you must use it, total not worth it).

Not saying this is good, just showing you can do almost w/e you want for Fex's.


Regular scythe fexes might have become better in AT compared to the stonecrusher. On charge they hit on 3+, rerolling ones and with 1 cp reroll wounds. We have to look at the monstrous acid maws too, that AP5 is nice.


No, they actually do the same wounds 7.5 (really its like 7.46/7.56 or something) to a Rhino, BUT thats without the Stone 4+ to do D3 MW's (compare to 1) and without Re-rolls on the D6 damage, on average without the CP re-roll with 3 rounds on charging (you take fleet to fallback and charge lets say) the Stonefex will do more over all.


EDIT: Is the MST fex S6? or S7? I did the math wounding on 4+ for MST-fex. If its S6 then its only 4wounds and MUCH worst than the SoneFex


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 09:50:31


Post by: Astmeister


The Carnifex has S6.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 09:52:27


Post by: Amishprn86


LOL then its nothing compare to the StoneFex


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 10:02:42


Post by: Spoletta


Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 10:09:49


Post by: Astmeister


Well the reason is that the normal Carnifex is not meant to be good against vehicles. You have the Crushing Claw version for that.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 10:24:53


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Therion wrote:
How on earth would anyone compare something to the Razorback.

Nobody in this entire edition used a Razorback that was not getting full re-rolls to hit and to wound from Guilliman. I thought even the most raging casual players knew that basically everything Space Marine sucks ass compared to everything else, unless it's being buffed by Guilliman. The whole point is that Hurricane Bolters on Stormravens, that wound even T7 on a 5+, and Asscans that wound everything at least on a 5+ but mostly better, are good because of the re-roll to wound. Without that, they're garbage. Hurricanes will go out of fashion just because of Astra T8 spam lists.

To me the Dakkafex has the advantage of being able to move without penalty, but that's where it ends.

Where I play every tournament has a 3 max rule to prevent spamming, but I wouldn't really mind even if I saw 9 of those. It's a full tier below the Guilliman's parking lot play style.




Dakkafex is still better against almost every target as a rerolls to hit asscan razorback.

Worse vs T7 2+
Equal vs T7 3+

Even with rerolls to wound, it's anywhere from equally effective (T3 5+) to ~60% as effective (Vs T7 3+).

Considering that it does not lose effectiveness when it moves, still gains benefits from hive fleet tactics, and is not tied specifically to a single chapter and one character that forces it to play in a castle formation. Yes, it's quite comparable.

Also, razorspam just won the GW GT. It's absolutely a working army atm.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 11:00:33


Post by: Spoletta


If the tails have changed to increase the number of attacks, maybe that now taking a bone mace is a good thing?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 11:16:49


Post by: Amishprn86


Spoletta wrote:
If the tails have changed to increase the number of attacks, maybe that now taking a bone mace is a good thing?


Not on the FW Stonefex, b.c the FW isnt getting updated, they to busy working on HH.....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 11:24:15


Post by: Niiai


I had big hopes for leviqthqn when we had the salamander teroll that was original reported. Now we have the 6+ but only if we are close to synapse. I am not certain what I think about that. For smaller independent units like lictors, carnifexes, ravaners it will not happen.

But an extra 6+++ is better then always being in cover. The cover bonus we can get normally.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 11:32:17


Post by: Amishprn86


I was thinking of having my Biovores Leviathan, they will be -1 hit (malamthrope), in cover and 6+++, i dont care if they miss or not.

This will make it really punishing to shoot them (ideally). Idk if it would be the "best" but its something i'm thinking about.

I could take a Tyrant with a HVC back there too as my WL, that means the Leviathan Stratagem might be useful too, re-roll hits/wounds if they DS/Charge into me (tho i'll have a couple 10man gants as bubble wrap).

I really need to play test some things.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 11:44:35


Post by: Niiai


I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 12:52:17


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Niiai wrote:
I had big hopes for leviqthqn when we had the salamander teroll that was original reported. Now we have the 6+ but only if we are close to synapse. I am not certain what I think about that. For smaller independent units like lictors, carnifexes, ravaners it will not happen.

But an extra 6+++ is better then always being in cover. The cover bonus we can get normally.

For monsters you generally won't. It's very hard in 8th to get a cover save for anything other than infantry. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ on a model without an invulnerable save is generally better than getting a 6+++. There's almost no AP-5 out there and very little AP-4.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:04:21


Post by: Niiai


If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

While it is near impossible to get cover saves on MC's, you do have the possabilaty. Other nids do not have the posabillaty to get 6+++.

Solo MC's will not get the 6+++, så Jhormunghard is better there. This is asuming you never advance, or charge. Many of the MC's have assault weapons, but it is unlikly they will advance. They will charge though.

Depending on the wording, the hive tyrant/tyrant guard might be benefitted most for the 6+++. The tyrant has 3+ 4++ 6+++ 2+ tranfer to tyrant guard. If the guards then get 6+++ again, it would be awsome.

Perhaps even throw in the core rulebook 6+++ warlord trait for even better ods.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:10:06


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Niiai wrote:
If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

This is not true at all. Against AP0 fire, a 2+ save is about 67% more durable than a 3+ followed by a 6+++. Like, just work out the expected number of wounds and see for yourself. The FNP would have to be a 4+++ for the two to give the same result. A 2+ is better than a 3+/6+++ against AP-3 and worse, is the same against AP-4, and is worse against AP-5.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:15:56


Post by: Amishprn86


 Niiai wrote:
I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Worst, its 4 wounds (4.17 actually) to a Rhino, it doesnt get re-rolls, compare to 10 wounds (9.75 actually)
Edit: Its 16pts cheaper tho....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:22:42


Post by: Astmeister


 Niiai wrote:
If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

While it is near impossible to get cover saves on MC's, you do have the possabilaty. Other nids do not have the posabillaty to get 6+++.

Solo MC's will not get the 6+++, så Jhormunghard is better there. This is asuming you never advance, or charge. Many of the MC's have assault weapons, but it is unlikly they will advance. They will charge though.

Depending on the wording, the hive tyrant/tyrant guard might be benefitted most for the 6+++. The tyrant has 3+ 4++ 6+++ 2+ tranfer to tyrant guard. If the guards then get 6+++ again, it would be awsome.

Perhaps even throw in the core rulebook 6+++ warlord trait for even better ods.


Besides the other comments: Do not forget that the 6+++ has to be applied to every single damage point, instead of every wound. This can be benificial, but is often worse.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:26:00


Post by: dan2026


I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:36:21


Post by: Amishprn86


 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:46:49


Post by: Astmeister


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.



I doubt that you can drop the spore mines for free. Nothing states how many you could put in a unit, so you could potentially put 2x 9 Spore Mines for free? That seems to be too strong for me.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:50:04


Post by: dan2026


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:50:41


Post by: Astmeister


Also CP should not be a problem, because you can easily field a brigade for about 720 points:

3x Neurotrophe 210
3x Lictor 135
6x RipperSw. 198
3x Spore mines 90
3x1 Biovores 75




Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:51:20


Post by: Amishprn86


It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 13:52:24


Post by: Astmeister


 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:03:35


Post by: Niiai


The spore mine stratagem is 3command points. Apparantly it is something you defore the game starts.

Spore mines probably stil have the do not cost points when you make them.

The last question is if the you are allowed to make a full 6 spore strong unit, or if you can only make them 3 strong.

It could be some first turn charges there. 10ish mortal wounds for 3 command points if you make the charge. Sounds alright to me.

Regarding ranged attacks: Many armies will probably take some form of:
Exochrine
Tyranofex
Hive Guards
Biovores

The last 2 has a stratagem that lets them shooy 2x. So yeah, you are gonne be seing those.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:03:37


Post by: dan2026


 Astmeister wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.


In the games I play most Vehicles seem to have toughness 8. Dreads, tanks you name it.
The Exocrine gun wouldn't be strong enough.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:09:21


Post by: Astmeister


 dan2026 wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.


In the games I play most Vehicles seem to have toughness 8. Dreads, tanks you name it.
The Exocrine gun wouldn't be strong enough.


AFAIK normal dreads have T7. The only normal tanks with T8 are Leman Russ and Land Raiders. The first type will be played quite often the latter not so much. But I agree that it is good to have something against T8. Knights and Wraith Knights also have T8.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:16:48


Post by: Cephalobeard


As someone potentially new to nids, I'm really loving the idea of running the 4-6 Dakkafex plan in Jormund, then doing a separate detachment w/ a Kronos Tyrant w/ wings or two.

Hell, just the idea of Kronos from a fluff standpoint is really cool. A whole fleet designed to combat the warp? As someone with probably close to 10k Daemons, I love it.

Just going to come down to exactly what else fills the remaining slots.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:23:40


Post by: dan2026


The only issue I really have with Tyrannofexes is they really need a Synapse Creature to stay within 24" to keep them able to fire at full efficiency.

And I haven't quite worked out which Synapse Creature this should be.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:25:34


Post by: Xenomancers


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


Important to note though that it does the same number of wounds to a baneblade or a russ being str 10.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:52:39


Post by: Spoletta


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Worst, its 4 wounds (4.17 actually) to a Rhino, it doesnt get re-rolls, compare to 10 wounds (9.75 actually)
Edit: Its 16pts cheaper tho....


Screamer killer version does better thanks to the extra attack, +1 to hit and rerolling one (with the stratagem to reroll wounds). I get 8,5 out of the stonecrusher though, was he Str 14, WS4+ AP3 Dd6?



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:53:05


Post by: dan2026


Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 14:59:14


Post by: Astmeister


 dan2026 wrote:
Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?


If he is your Warlord, I would take TG to protect him. Otherwise it might not be necessary.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:02:51


Post by: Spoletta


 dan2026 wrote:
Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?


Yes they would, in the infortunate situation where you fail catalyst or that IG gunline takes first turn, or if you want him still around by turn 3. The last point is not a necessity, by turn 3 with a full assault list the game is already set.
With TG and the right warlord trait he is still alive and kicking by turn 5, making him a bad target.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:02:54


Post by: Amishprn86


Spoletta wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Worst, its 4 wounds (4.17 actually) to a Rhino, it doesnt get re-rolls, compare to 10 wounds (9.75 actually)
Edit: Its 16pts cheaper tho....


Screamer killer version does better thanks to the extra attack, +1 to hit and rerolling one (with the stratagem to reroll wounds). I get 8,5 out of the stonecrusher though, was he Str 14, WS4+ AP3 Dd6?



Look at the 1st post about it, its 7.5 wounds, the 2nd numbers were higher rolls to show the difference in good roles, i didnt mean to make it sound 9 wounds is average, its 7.5 wounds.


 Amishprn86 wrote:


No, they actually do the same wounds 7.5 (really its like 7.46/7.56 or something) to a Rhino, BUT thats without the Stone 4+ to do D3 MW's (compare to 1) and without Re-rolls on the D6 damage, on average without the CP re-roll with 3 rounds on charging (you take fleet to fallback and charge lets say) the Stonefex will do more over all.


]EDIT: Is the MST fex S6? or S7? I did the math wounding on 4+ for MST-fex. If its S6 then its only 4wounds and MUCH worst than the SoneFex[


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:12:51


Post by: str00dles1


New stuff today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/31/codex-tyranids-preview-hive-fleet-adaptations-oct-31gw-homepage-post-2/

Looking at Gorgon, maybe im missing something

Ability:
You can reroll hit rolls in the fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models then their own

GW wrote:
There’s nothing worse than getting a key unit, such as a Hive Tyrant, into close combat and then rolling a handful of ones on its wound rolls. With Hive Fleet Gorgon, you’ll be able to ensure that your larger units don’t accidentally fluff a key round of combat, while allowing even smaller creatures, such as Gargoyles, to stack up wounds on your enemies.

How the heck does this ever helps a Hive Tyrant? If I charge my 1 models at 1 other model I don't get my reroll...so....

EDIT
Looking at it, they coped the ability of Hydra. so they messed up the article


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:17:38


Post by: Niiai


Also, the abilaty of hive fleet gorgon is the same as hive fleet hydra. Also gorgon states 'they have poison, therefore... something else.' I think GW made a bobo.

However we have kraken wrong. They can roll 3 dice when they advance, and choose the best one. And they have the fallback thing.

So Kraken genstealers are good,


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:23:43


Post by: Astmeister


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/31/codex-tyranids-preview-hive-fleet-adaptations-oct-31gw-homepage-post-2/

Kraken can also roll 3d6 on advance and choose the highest. Nice for Genestealers!

Gorgon rerolls 1s for to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ups, you sniped me.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:41:53


Post by: Niiai


Actually it is nice on several things. Short ranged weapons with assault. Like big blobs of gaunts. Run and shoot. Screamer killers also runs and shoots.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:45:42


Post by: Astmeister


Yeah, but you will end up having the -1 to hit for advancing and shooting. But still the Kraken trait is the one to choose, when you want to be fast.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:49:53


Post by: Marmatag


I still see myself running as Jormungandr though. The CP to move a squad across the board in the tunnels is pretty significant. And always having cover is pretty nice, too.

And i mean let's pause for a minute here.

50 conscripts was 150 points and could FRFSRF for 200 dice, while being immune to morale at their most OP point in 8th.

Now, 30 dakkagants, costs 240 points, and with the stratagem can fire 180 strength 4 dice, while being immune to morale. And, for 1 more CP i can deploy them in your face turn 1 with Jormungandr.

180 dakkagant dice (no rerolls) versus...

T3 targets = 60 forced saves expected. Notable targets: Celestine, Eldar, GEQ
T4 targets = 45 forced saves expected. Notable targets: MEQ
T5-7 targets = 30 forced saves expected. Notable targets: Razorbacks, wave serpents, taurox
T8 targets = 15 forced saves expected. Notable targets: Leman Russ Tanks.

Obviously not super efficient on the high targets, but against chaff these guys will clear screens like a boss. Also, if you catch a character out on its own, you could easily annihilate it. These guys could potentially strip 10 wounds off of Magnus in a turn if he doesn't have his invuln booster on.

And this many dice in your face demands a response, while simultaneously rendering things like Malefic lords impotent. Enjoy smiting my tiny bugs. Oh I also put Catalyst on them, so i'll be ignoring 1/3 of your mortal wounds. Hello.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:59:34


Post by: Spoletta


Hormagaunts from Kraken become interesting, they can perform a first turn charge.

Advance 7+ doubled 3d6. Cast onslaught and charge. Even easier if you invest in AG for your gants. Then at your turn you fall back and charge even deeper in enemy lines. I like it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 15:59:39


Post by: Niiai


Moving units in tunnels is good.

But I would like to point out thet pheromon trail does the same thing. At least if it is written as it is now. You do need to be Jormungandr to do this.

Kraken that has the 3D6 to move also has the advance stratagem:

'Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic'

That is quite good, if your run 5 or 6 you suddenly run 10 or 12. Very good for units with genstealers or with onslaught as Soletta pointed out.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 16:10:07


Post by: Spoletta


Wait a second...Pyrovores!

You can do this with Pyrovores!

Actually this is an almost guaranted charge on everyone of our MCs, as long as you get AG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Surprisingly walkrants are faster than flyrants now!
With a 5 on the 3d6 an AG walkrant will need a roll of 4 to enter the enemy deployment zone!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 16:45:11


Post by: nekooni


str00dles1 wrote:
New stuff today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/31/codex-tyranids-preview-hive-fleet-adaptations-oct-31gw-homepage-post-2/

Looking at Gorgon, maybe im missing something

Ability:
You can reroll hit rolls in the fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models then their own

GW wrote:
There’s nothing worse than getting a key unit, such as a Hive Tyrant, into close combat and then rolling a handful of ones on its wound rolls. With Hive Fleet Gorgon, you’ll be able to ensure that your larger units don’t accidentally fluff a key round of combat, while allowing even smaller creatures, such as Gargoyles, to stack up wounds on your enemies.

How the heck does this ever helps a Hive Tyrant? If I charge my 1 models at 1 other model I don't get my reroll...so....

EDIT
Looking at it, they coped the ability of Hydra. so they messed up the article


Seems like they fixed it by now:

Hydra (Re-roll hits vs smaller units): Swarming Instincts allows Tyranids players to take advantage of the cheap infantry available to their army. Outnumbering the foe is simple with units like Hormagaunts and Gargoyles, and re-rolls to hit help make up for the fairly average Weapon Skill on most smaller Tyranids units.


Gorgon (Re-roll hit rolls of 1): There’s nothing worse than getting a key unit, such as a Hive Tyrant, into close combat and then rolling a handful of ones on its wound rolls. With Hive Fleet Gorgon, you’ll be able to ensure that your larger units don’t accidentally fluff a key round of combat, while allowing even smaller creatures, such as Gargoyles, to stack up wounds on your enemies.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 16:50:21


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Did they change it or did people misread? Advance 3d6 and pick the highest. Not advance 3d6.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 16:59:09


Post by: Zimko


So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:01:40


Post by: Lance845


Updated the OP. Removing Rumors replaced with fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting to note, does anyone remember that rumor from a little over a year ago that Synapse was going to grant FNP? There was a image of a playtest rule or something and everyone said it looked like it was fake.

Now it's Leviathans Adaptation.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:12:21


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Zimko wrote:
So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


I've been doing something similar to this. I run 60 gants and 20 stealers on the board, have 2x trygons, 1 with 20 stealers and 1 with 30 devgants.

Works very well. Will work better with codex buffs.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:30:59


Post by: Spoletta


Tyrant guards are going to be really good with kraken.
First turn charge with 6 guards means a lot now that they have 3 attacks. Rending claws, toxin sacs and AG. Will entagle a lot of stuff and be really hard to remove.

If you feel like it you can also take a swarmlord, propel himself in there and fight from turn 1 while being protected by guards.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:38:07


Post by: Zimko


For the Jor adaptation, do you count as having charged if you fail the charge?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:39:21


Post by: Marmatag


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Zimko wrote:
So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


I've been doing something similar to this. I run 60 gants and 20 stealers on the board, have 2x trygons, 1 with 20 stealers and 1 with 30 devgants.

Works very well. Will work better with codex buffs.


I guess what i'm saying is you wouldn't need the Trygon with the new stratagem to deploy your devgaunts.

Do you find your list is competitive now with those models? Do you also run the Swarmlord?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:42:07


Post by: Spoletta


 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Zimko wrote:
So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


I've been doing something similar to this. I run 60 gants and 20 stealers on the board, have 2x trygons, 1 with 20 stealers and 1 with 30 devgants.

Works very well. Will work better with codex buffs.


I guess what i'm saying is you wouldn't need the Trygon with the new stratagem to deploy your devgaunts.

Do you find your list is competitive now with those models? Do you also run the Swarmlord?


Hmm a Trygon is big, but can you put 30 devgaunts within 3" of raveners?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:43:45


Post by: Zimko


Well, it would allow you to use 1 trygon to bring 2 units IF the wording is that the unit brought by the stratagem only needs to be 'within 3 inches. If the wording is 'wholly within 3 inches' like the current Trygon rule then you'll need a unit of raveners instead. That'll save you about 120 points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:44:22


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


Spoletta wrote:
Tyrant guards are going to be really good with kraken.
First turn charge with 6 guards means a lot now that they have 3 attacks. Rending claws, toxin sacs and AG. Will entagle a lot of stuff and be really hard to remove.

If you feel like it you can also take a swarmlord, propel himself in there and fight from turn 1 while being protected by guards.

Am I missing something? Even with Kraken a TGuard will at most move 14" before the charge. I haven't played that many games but that dosnt seem close enough to make a turn one charge.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:44:44


Post by: Zimko


And yes it's actually easier to fit 30 gaunts within 3 inches of raveners because you can spread them out.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:47:33


Post by: Lance845


Spoletta wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Zimko wrote:
So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


I've been doing something similar to this. I run 60 gants and 20 stealers on the board, have 2x trygons, 1 with 20 stealers and 1 with 30 devgants.

Works very well. Will work better with codex buffs.


I guess what i'm saying is you wouldn't need the Trygon with the new stratagem to deploy your devgaunts.

Do you find your list is competitive now with those models? Do you also run the Swarmlord?


Hmm a Trygon is big, but can you put 30 devgaunts within 3" of raveners?


3 Raveners in coherency in a line gives you about a 14" x 7.5" space to fill up minus the raveners themselves.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:55:38


Post by: Spoletta


Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Tyrant guards are going to be really good with kraken.
First turn charge with 6 guards means a lot now that they have 3 attacks. Rending claws, toxin sacs and AG. Will entagle a lot of stuff and be really hard to remove.

If you feel like it you can also take a swarmlord, propel himself in there and fight from turn 1 while being protected by guards.

Am I missing something? Even with Kraken a TGuard will at most move 14" before the charge. I haven't played that many games but that dosnt seem close enough to make a turn one charge.


They move up to 20". Kraken for 1 CP doubles your advance dice.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:56:47


Post by: Marmatag


The challenge here is making multiple detachments. With <Hive Fleet> being the keyword for Synapse, if you had multiple detachments you'd need to keep track of which synapse goes with which fleet.

My gut feeling is to make a battalion, and a spearhead. But, I would still want my units to be the same hive fleet for synapse.

Thrope
2x Trygon
1x Unit of 2 Dakkafex

Swarmlord
????
30x Hormagants
30x Devgants
20x Genestealers


Still leaves quite a bit of room


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:58:40


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


Spoletta wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Tyrant guards are going to be really good with kraken.
First turn charge with 6 guards means a lot now that they have 3 attacks. Rending claws, toxin sacs and AG. Will entagle a lot of stuff and be really hard to remove.

If you feel like it you can also take a swarmlord, propel himself in there and fight from turn 1 while being protected by guards.

Am I missing something? Even with Kraken a TGuard will at most move 14" before the charge. I haven't played that many games but that dosnt seem close enough to make a turn one charge.


They move up to 20". Kraken for 1 CP doubles your advance dice.

Ah thats what I was missing. Looks pretty good then.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 17:59:33


Post by: Lance845


Wow... yeah. Synapse is all Hive fleet based now. gak.

That will make multiple detachments hard.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:06:44


Post by: xmbk


 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:09:01


Post by: Xenomancers


 Niiai wrote:
Actually it is nice on several things. Short ranged weapons with assault. Like big blobs of gaunts. Run and shoot. Screamer killers also runs and shoots.

It's best for flying hive tyrants I think - they can now fallback shot and charge every turn. Gargoyles too.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:20:04


Post by: Insectum7


 Lance845 wrote:
Wow... yeah. Synapse is all Hive fleet based now. gak.

That will make multiple detachments hard.


IMO its a great example of "soft balance". You can do it, but things might get awkward.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:27:21


Post by: Lance845


xmbk wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.


When a biovore shoots it's gun it creates a new unit of spore mines. The size of the unit doesn't matter/is irrelevant. It creates a new unit.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:28:10


Post by: Marmatag


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Wow... yeah. Synapse is all Hive fleet based now. gak.

That will make multiple detachments hard.


IMO its a great example of "soft balance". You can do it, but things might get awkward.


I suppose so. Our traits are powerful.

The fact that one doesn't leap out as "auto-take" is pretty solid too. I like Jormungandr personally, because a ball of 5+/5+++ devgants shooting 180 dice per turn they aren't addressed is just awesomesauce. But others have found really good uses for the other traits as well.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:29:11


Post by: C4790M


How is everyone taking their carnifexes? I’m thinking of giving old one eye an honour guard of 2 fexen but I don’t know how to kit them out. Dakkafexes to clear out screens as he advances? Screamerkillers to wade into melee alongside their boss? Thornbacks for a middle ground?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:31:27


Post by: Lance845


Yeah, I think I will be doing Jormungandr myself as well. The more I look at it it's too flexible. I can adapt my deployments and which units are set up in tunnels or on the field each game without really changing the list itself but have entirely different first turn impacts.

Jormungandr is great.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:36:42


Post by: str00dles1


And because its during set up you can do this as much as you want then also yea? Stratagem: The Enemy Below (1CP)

So like 3 Ravener units and 3 units of 30 dakkagauntzs turn1?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:40:50


Post by: Niiai


The Jormungandr are quite good.

I think Jormungandr and Leviathan are the best all rounder. Mine are painted in the Leviathan colour scheme. I am on the fence on weather I want to be tematic or not.

I guess for me it depends how many units I can stack around a lictor taxi. The 3 model unit of the ravener taxi is cleraly superior when it comes to placement.

I am planing of making a full MCU list to get the whole 12 command points.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:43:44


Post by: xmbk


 Lance845 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.


When a biovore shoots it's gun it creates a new unit of spore mines. The size of the unit doesn't matter/is irrelevant. It creates a new unit.



I understand what it is technically saying. I also know it was written before there was a stratagem for pregame units. I think it's reasonable to expect a FAQ, assuming it's not made clear somewhere in the codex.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:44:52


Post by: Lance845


I am going to be buying some Raveners for sure. I always wanted to but they were never particularly good. Now I needs them.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:46:53


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Zimko wrote:
So, kill or tie up a screen with 30 devgaunts from a raveners tunnel (Jorg strat) and bring 30 horms from a Trygon tunnel with a glands (And or make them behemoth). Follow up with smite spam from neuros to kill vehicles. With 5 neuros, that's roughly 1000 points. Still plenty of room to add a ranged element and objective grabbers. Rippers, regular gaunts, malanthrope, biovores, hive guard. Whatever ends up being most point efficient and capable of dealing with vehicle spam.

But alas the codex isn't here yet so this is just speculation.


I've been doing something similar to this. I run 60 gants and 20 stealers on the board, have 2x trygons, 1 with 20 stealers and 1 with 30 devgants.

Works very well. Will work better with codex buffs.


I guess what i'm saying is you wouldn't need the Trygon with the new stratagem to deploy your devgaunts.

Do you find your list is competitive now with those models? Do you also run the Swarmlord?


I definitely agree with you. The Trygons are decent beatsticks, but expensive and with the firepower most armies bring they die too easily. I'm not sure the 2+ from Jorm would be enough to keep them alive, though adrenal glands and reroll to charges gives them a pretty solid chance to make it.

I find it semi-competitive. I think adjusting some stuff around and with the new codex, the principle of running 60 horms for tying things up and using devilgaunts/genestealers as your primary damage dealers will actually work well. I don't use swarmlord.

You highlight something I think I touched on earlier too - being able to "deep strike" our hordes without spending a fortune on Trygons could very well allow us to run 200+ body lists.

Considering Genestealers and dev gants are our 2 most cost efficient sources of damage, this is something we should be talking more about. Until smite gets nerfed (Rumors are leaning towards limit of 3 per turn), burying neurothropes in hordes will be very efficient.

Something like
Behemoth/Leviathan/Kraken 490
Neurothrope x2
Hormagaunts 3x30

Jormungandr 1269
Broodlord x2
Genestealers 2x20
Devgants x30
Raveners 3x3

Kronos
3x Neurothrope

For a total of 1969, with 10 CP. 20x GS and 30x dev gants are 240, so you basically can swap to taste in that regard, subbing broodlords for neurothropes for cheaper hq. Could also use Lictors over Raveners, though not sure about getting 20-30 models within 3" of one model or the specifics of that strat. The Kronos neurothrope supreme command gives you access to the anti-psyker strat which could be critical, and the d3 MW warlord trait should you face smite spam yourself.

Lots of room for adjustments, but this is just a rough idea based on what we're talking about.





Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:48:53


Post by: Lance845


I am thinking in set up that U would deploy 2 units of Raveners in tunnels with 2 30 man blobs of devilgaunts.

Drop 2 or 3 spores with the CPs (depending on how it's worded and actually works).

A couple exocrines.... The rest is kind of up in the air. I have so much I want to do I can't fit it all.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:55:12


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Lance845 wrote:
I am thinking in set up that U would deploy 2 units of Raveners in tunnels with 2 30 man blobs of devilgaunts.

Drop 2 or 3 spores with the CPs (depending on how it's worded and actually works).

A couple exocrines.... The rest is kind of up in the air. I have so much I want to do I can't fit it all.


You could definitely swap to 1 unit of stealers and 2 units of dev gaunts. Drop 1 broolord to neuro for points and put toxin sacs on the stealers. Then you have the ability to use the stealers for specific high armor high wound targets.

Depending on the wording on the spore mine strat, it could very well become a go-to at the start, though 3 CP is a lot, and most armies aren't rushing out to 12" to give Tyranids first turn charges. I think spore launchers allowing you to hem in specific targets to reduce their ability to respond to your forces is much, much stronger.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 18:58:10


Post by: Lance845


Also, I think the most important bit about nids in general is the way our Adaptations and rumored Strategems gives us complete board control.

We can deepstrike too much too easily within ranges other players cannot match (using lictors and pheromone trails).

while dropping walls of spore mines to control first turn movement channels.

With the way 40k plays being able to deploy your guys and act on the first turn generally dictates the rest of the game. Enemies HAVE to bottle up and play defensively if we show up with any deepstrike/infiltrate ability.

Our command points are going to be a precious commodity but they are also easily acquired.

We are going to feth some gak up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I am thinking in set up that U would deploy 2 units of Raveners in tunnels with 2 30 man blobs of devilgaunts.

Drop 2 or 3 spores with the CPs (depending on how it's worded and actually works).

A couple exocrines.... The rest is kind of up in the air. I have so much I want to do I can't fit it all.


You could definitely swap to 1 unit of stealers and 2 units of dev gaunts. Drop 1 broolord to neuro for points and put toxin sacs on the stealers. Then you have the ability to use the stealers for specific high armor high wound targets.

Depending on the wording on the spore mine strat, it could very well become a go-to at the start, though 3 CP is a lot, and most armies aren't rushing out to 12" to give Tyranids first turn charges. I think spore launchers allowing you to hem in specific targets to reduce their ability to respond to your forces is much, much stronger.


The thing with the spore mines is because it's a command point options you can scale it to the specific game on deployment. If he board is way to open and it wont do much just don't do it at all. If it's got good terrain you can easily use 2 drops of spores along with your deepstrikes to completely control first turn movement for the enemy.

Every shot fired at a spore mine to clear it out of the way is a shot not fired at a deepstriking devilgaunt. Every devilgaunt shot at in turn 1 means a blob of spore mines is getting closer.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:02:39


Post by: Insectum7


 Marmatag wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Wow... yeah. Synapse is all Hive fleet based now. gak.

That will make multiple detachments hard.


IMO its a great example of "soft balance". You can do it, but things might get awkward.


I suppose so. Our traits are powerful.

The fact that one doesn't leap out as "auto-take" is pretty solid too. I like Jormungandr personally, because a ball of 5+/5+++ devgants shooting 180 dice per turn they aren't addressed is just awesomesauce. But others have found really good uses for the other traits as well.


Agreed about Jormungandr, that was my first pick as well. 3+ saves on Warriors is great. Even better is the fact that they don't count as 3+ saves for Grav weapons, which would be the best marine Heavy against them.

I suspect I might enjoy Kraken too, for the speed, but we'll see. The Jormungandr combo just looks really good right now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:04:09


Post by: Niiai


Regular lictor taxi is good enough for big blobs if you pack it in.

1cp pheromone trail
choose when nid inf set up as reinf/reserve. if got lictor on battlefield, you can set up wholly within 6 inch of lictor and more than 9 from enemy

Asuming you can deploy them at the same time as the lictor. And that you can use this strategem more then 1's, and more then 1's per lictor. You could pick up 9 warriors, and 1 prime. Come down, shoot a bit. Pew pew. With Adrenal Glands on the warriors you might even get of a charge if you are Behemot.



[Thumb - IMG_20171031_195407.jpg]
[Thumb - IMG_20171031_195526.jpg]


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:05:22


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Lance845 wrote:

The thing with the spore mines is because it's a command point options you can scale it to the specific game on deployment. If he board is way to open and it wont do much just don't do it at all. If it's got good terrain you can easily use 2 drops of spores along with your deepstrikes to completely control first turn movement for the enemy.

Every shot fired at a spore mine to clear it out of the way is a shot not fired at a deepstriking devilgaunt. Every devilgaunt shot at in turn 1 means a blob of spore mines is getting closer.


I'm in full agreement, just looking at the limitations of the ability.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:13:09


Post by: Insectum7


So I want to know if Deathspitters are now 5 points for just Tyrannocytes, or 5 pts for everything. Because if it's everything, my Warrior army just saved a bunch of points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:18:19


Post by: Benlisted


My initial thinking for a potent list makes use of Behemoth and the Lictor strat to reserve a ton of stuff for cheap:

Brigade:

Swarmy
Flyrant w AG, HVC & either MRC or Boneswords depending on pts. Swap HVC for Miasma Cannon.
Broodlord

Neurothrope

20 Genes
20 Genes
30 Devilgants

3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Lictor
Lictor
Lictor


3 Sky-slashers
3 Sky-slashers
3 Sky-slashers
[swap these for Mucolids if the points end up too high]

Biovore
Biovore
Biovore

Tyrannocyte w/ DS

So 12 total CP. The bolded stuff deep striking - so spending 4CP on giving 2 genes, devilgants and the Broodlord the ability to accompany Lictors. This is assuming you can setup multiple units near one Lictor, ofc. Basically the list deposits as much as it can in the opponent's face early on, and rerolls to charge thanks to Behemoth. I will also likely be using the 2cp strat to fire the Devilgants twice to obliterate bubble wrap, but thanks to the Brigade that still leaves me with 6cp left - and I have a ton of Mind eaters who can gain some back off killing characters.

Flyrant setup gives me D6 Str9 ap-2 D3 shots and effectively 2 smites (take Psy Scream) on the drop turn, which isn't half bad.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:32:50


Post by: Xenomancers


Anyword on the tyrannocyte? Can you shove any 20 units you want in there? or does it still say unit?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:39:42


Post by: N.I.B.


 dan2026 wrote:
The only issue I really have with Tyrannofexes is they really need a Synapse Creature to stay within 24" to keep them able to fire at full efficiency.

And I haven't quite worked out which Synapse Creature this should be.

You've got about a month to enjoy the mandatory Malanthrope, before it gets a big point increase.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:40:10


Post by: Zimko


Can you use the jorm strat for multiple units? Do we have the full wording yet? Because raveners taxis for 30man blobs is insanely good if you can do it for multiple units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you could bring warriors or genestealers.... Or pyrovores

And 90points gets you 3 raveners with deathspitters and rending claws. Pretty cheap.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:47:17


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


 N.I.B. wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
The only issue I really have with Tyrannofexes is they really need a Synapse Creature to stay within 24" to keep them able to fire at full efficiency.

And I haven't quite worked out which Synapse Creature this should be.

You've got about a month to enjoy the mandatory Malanthrope, before it gets a big point increase.

4Chan keeps saying that Neurothropes will be an solo HQ choice for 70pts that provides Synapse. Could be a good option if it's true.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 19:59:08


Post by: Lance845


I don't understand why a baby sitter that has to stay within 2ft of you is that bad. Nids have been working with babysitters that had to be 12 and then 8 inches away for like... a decade.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 20:01:25


Post by: pinecone77


OK, I am wayy behind...can Mawlocs Tunnel? if so that could be Epic, as they get to arrive much closer than a "normal" Deep Striker. Pyrovore? Zoeys? Both? 3D of acid, Smite, Mawloc MW, then CP to double tap the Acid? Good times, good times....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 20:01:57


Post by: Spoletta


Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
 N.I.B. wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
The only issue I really have with Tyrannofexes is they really need a Synapse Creature to stay within 24" to keep them able to fire at full efficiency.

And I haven't quite worked out which Synapse Creature this should be.

You've got about a month to enjoy the mandatory Malanthrope, before it gets a big point increase.

4Chan keeps saying that Neurothropes will be an solo HQ choice for 70pts that provides Synapse. Could be a good option if it's true.


Yes, that much is confirmed. Good stuff, but nothing OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pinecone77 wrote:
OK, I am wayy behind...can Mawlocs Tunnel? if so that could be Epic, as they get to arrive much closer than a "normal" Deep Striker. Pyrovore? Zoeys?


Mawloc can tunnel, but the models that come out of the tunnel must be at lest 9" away from the enemy, so it's useless in that regard.
On the other hand if used as a tyrannocite the mawlock is good. Compared to a tyrannocite it can take 30 gants, is harder, costs less, hurts more in melee and he can burrow again to inflict some MWs later on.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 20:27:27


Post by: Marmatag


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Zimko wrote:

Something like
Behemoth/Leviathan/Kraken 490
Neurothrope x2
Hormagaunts 3x30

Jormungandr 1269
Broodlord x2
Genestealers 2x20
Devgants x30
Raveners 3x3

Kronos
3x Neurothrope



I like the idea here. My only problem is the logistics of an army with this many bodies - getting 90 hormagants in range of synapse but also in such a way where they can fight, and be useful, would be challenging.

Any decent imperium list is going to have a ton of mortars. And guard lists will have taurox primes and wyverns. Being super depending on T3 bodies with no save is a big concern to me. I wouldn't be concerned with grav shooting, or marine shooting. If you can handle razorbacks, you can handle marines no problem.

On that note, I would go full Jormungandr. I know you lose out on Kronos. And I do agree that smite is going to be nerfed. I heard that it would be 1 mortal wound instead of d3. Although 3 cast limit sounds more likely.

Thinking like:
2x 30 Hormagants
1x 30 Dakkagants
1x 20 Genestealers

As the core of my chaff. I like the idea of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, and Hive Tyrants to do some of the heavier lifting. With cover tyranid warriors might be worth it, too. I would still run 1 Trygon.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 20:39:22


Post by: Zimko


You could bring Venomthrope into a raveners tunnel and provide -1 to every unit that fails it's charge.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 20:44:54


Post by: Niiai


If you want to burn through your powerpoints, have the taxi bring 3 units of Zoanthropes. And then use the 3 commandpoint zoanthrope stratagem to nuke them back to the stone age.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 21:12:55


Post by: Spoletta


 Niiai wrote:
If you want to burn through your powerpoints, have the taxi bring 3 units of Zoanthropes. And then use the 3 commandpoint zoanthrope stratagem to nuke them back to the stone age.


Don't forget a CP reroll to blast that character at 5+!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 21:16:37


Post by: C4790M


How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 21:19:11


Post by: Benlisted


C4790M wrote:
How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?


FA you have sky-slashers! Which are actually pretty solid. I think I would be inclined to always plump for the Lictor over the Pyrovore though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 21:46:55


Post by: Spoletta


C4790M wrote:
How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?


Gargoyles are really good now with deepstrike.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:06:45


Post by: N.I.B.


Just remember Devilgants need synapse within 24" to operate at full effect - a Trygon Prime may still have a role.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the Sporefield stratagem. I used the old Sporefield a lot in 7th ed, and now with 8th ed it's potentially a powerful tool that we've been missing in the index - 'Infiltrate'. The power to say 'no' to deepstriking units and push back first turn charges.

Would be nice to have a clarification on the timings of the Sporefield strategem - at the point you decide whether or not to use it, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:10:40


Post by: Spoletta


 N.I.B. wrote:
Just remember Devilgants need synapse within 24" to operate at full effect - a Trygon Prime may still have a role.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the Sporefield stratagem. I used the old Sporefield a lot in 7th ed, and now with 8th ed it's potentially a powerful tool that we've been missing in the index - 'Infiltrate'. The power to say 'no' to deepstriking units and push back first turn charges.

Would be nice to have a clarification on the timings of the Sporefield strategem - at the point you decide whether or not to use it, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.


Even if it comes after infiltrating units, and i think that this is the case, you can still block deepstrikers.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:14:10


Post by: Insectum7


C4790M wrote:
How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?


I love the idea of spore mines and the other ones, whos name escapes me atm. Such a weird unit.

Lictors and Biovores are obvious choices. Gargoyles are great models and seem more useful. Stuff that deep strikes is good because it doesnt feel like you're giving up first blood so easily.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:16:05


Post by: Marmatag


I just don't see the point in making a brigade unless you're astra militarum. It's too expensive.

For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy

Which is a fraction of the brigade in the first place, and yields the same CP. And if you really want fast/elite/etc you can still bring them, since the battalion is fairly open. Additionally this allows you to have 2 hive fleets if you're willing to risk the synapse coverage. Rerolling 1s in the shoot phase can be deadly if you're bring the heavy shooting fex (carn / tyranno).

I just don't see the point of a brigade for Tyranids either.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:16:21


Post by: pinecone77


But what I Want to do with it, is looking over to see three x20 blocks of Beserkers, figering Alpha Legion, and being able to blunt his 1st turn charge with some MWs also I believe that lets me spend CP to interupt so I can fight first because he already charged the sporefield...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:17:58


Post by: Niiai


 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy


That is 7 command points though?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:19:13


Post by: pinecone77


 Niiai wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy


That is 7 command points though?
And a Brigade would be 9+3= 12...?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:20:41


Post by: Niiai


pinecone77 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy


That is 7 command points though?
And a Brigade would be 9+3= 12...?


Correct.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:22:54


Post by: pinecone77


I think I'm going to be testing a Brgade+ try for a min cost Brigade, then try upgrades, like a Supreme Command of x5 Neurothropes for Smite Spam. Or x3 Winged Tyrants for an winged attack force.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:23:29


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
I like the idea here. My only problem is the logistics of an army with this many bodies - getting 90 hormagants in range of synapse but also in such a way where they can fight, and be useful, would be challenging.

Any decent imperium list is going to have a ton of mortars. And guard lists will have taurox primes and wyverns. Being super depending on T3 bodies with no save is a big concern to me. I wouldn't be concerned with grav shooting, or marine shooting. If you can handle razorbacks, you can handle marines no problem.

On that note, I would go full Jormungandr. I know you lose out on Kronos. And I do agree that smite is going to be nerfed. I heard that it would be 1 mortal wound instead of d3. Although 3 cast limit sounds more likely.

Thinking like:
2x 30 Hormagants
1x 30 Dakkagants
1x 20 Genestealers

As the core of my chaff. I like the idea of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, and Hive Tyrants to do some of the heavier lifting. With cover tyranid warriors might be worth it, too. I would still run 1 Trygon.


With 12" and that many HQs, synapse should never be a problem. You can easily cover the entire width of the board with 4x synapse characters, and every list should have that.

Taurox Prime are a big problem for us. Swapping in a Malanthrope and daisy chaining makes a big difference, as does Jormungandr or Leviathan. Conversely, If we go first, we have several available tools that give us decent odds on first turn charges, and weapon systems that will completely erase conscript screens. I'm not sold on us being able to counter a proper IG army atm, but I think Eldar may be the scissors to their paper, while we'll be the rock.

There's a lot to consider in that matchup, and both armies have a ton of flexibility in their list building.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:24:02


Post by: Marmatag


Yeah, in regards to CP: I'm not sure what I was thinking. It's been a long day.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I like the idea here. My only problem is the logistics of an army with this many bodies - getting 90 hormagants in range of synapse but also in such a way where they can fight, and be useful, would be challenging.

Any decent imperium list is going to have a ton of mortars. And guard lists will have taurox primes and wyverns. Being super depending on T3 bodies with no save is a big concern to me. I wouldn't be concerned with grav shooting, or marine shooting. If you can handle razorbacks, you can handle marines no problem.

On that note, I would go full Jormungandr. I know you lose out on Kronos. And I do agree that smite is going to be nerfed. I heard that it would be 1 mortal wound instead of d3. Although 3 cast limit sounds more likely.

Thinking like:
2x 30 Hormagants
1x 30 Dakkagants
1x 20 Genestealers

As the core of my chaff. I like the idea of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, and Hive Tyrants to do some of the heavier lifting. With cover tyranid warriors might be worth it, too. I would still run 1 Trygon.


With 12" and that many HQs, synapse should never be a problem. You can easily cover the entire width of the board with 4x synapse characters, and every list should have that.

Taurox Prime are a big problem for us. Swapping in a Malanthrope and daisy chaining makes a big difference, as does Jormungandr or Leviathan. Conversely, If we go first, we have several available tools that give us decent odds on first turn charges, and weapon systems that will completely erase conscript screens. I'm not sold on us being able to counter a proper IG army atm, but I think Eldar may be the scissors to their paper, while we'll be the rock.

There's a lot to consider in that matchup, and both armies have a ton of flexibility in their list building.



I don't disagree here.

I like the idea of some big bads to be more "take all comers" and have a shot against lists that lean on the guard but try to do more. I don't think against straight up IG we stand much of a chance, although I still haven't seen the codex yet so who knows.

I like the idea of the Swarmlord, and other melee big bads to deal with IG. They tend to be fairly clustered.

I could easily see my list featuring 30x Hormagants, 30x Devilgants, 20x genestealers, and a Swarmlord + Broodlord as the basis for my brigade.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:38:51


Post by: pinecone77


So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid size x3, three Broods of Rippers

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending" this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:41:56


Post by: Insectum7


pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....



I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:45:53


Post by: pinecone77


 Insectum7 wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.



Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....



I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.
It bypasses defenses and it overflows... so for example you shoot a Lascannon at conscripts and roll a 6 for damage, thats one dead hero of the empire. roll 3 MW and three heroes are made....


Late entry: Also consider that most things that Smite can also Cast. Psychic Scream, then Smite for example...also it looks like morale might make a comeback, so things like Horror, and Terrify might be "things"


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:45:56


Post by: Niiai


Spamming smite + small guns fire and lots of bodies (devilgaunts + tervigons + zoanthropes) could lend you to shooting awya chaff and then try to smite the big targets.

Probably best vs really big things and worse vs rhinoes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:53:20


Post by: C4790M


Ah, forgot about skyslasher, shame they’re so expensive on forgeworld. Any tips on converting some?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 22:56:39


Post by: pinecone77


 Niiai wrote:
Spamming smite + small guns fire and lots of bodies (devilgaunts + tervigons + zoanthropes) could lend you to shooting awya chaff and then try to smite the big targets.

Probably best vs really big things and worse vs rhinoes.
Yeah vs Rhinos I think surrounding it with Hormies is out "best" solution. It really will "shine" vs Biggies, but Primarchs and Knights exist, so.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 23:12:14


Post by: Amishprn86


xmbk wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.


When a biovore shoots it's gun it creates a new unit of spore mines. The size of the unit doesn't matter/is irrelevant. It creates a new unit.



I understand what it is technically saying. I also know it was written before there was a stratagem for pregame units. I think it's reasonable to expect a FAQ, assuming it's not made clear somewhere in the codex.


I've been out giving candy just came back, its 3CP!!!!! 3!!! not 1, not 2 but 3!!! they are free.........


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/10/31 23:41:47


Post by: Marmatag


 Insectum7 wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....



I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.


It's the Malefic Lord / Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker strategy. But these units are brutally undercosted, with malefic lords being 4++ and being 30 points. Astra Militarum psykers are 40 points.

This makes it worthwhile. But at 70 points? Not the same value.

I would rather have units that can be more effective. One or two of these sure, since they can be cheap synapse beacons. But, i'd rather have 2 of these, and a hive tyrant, than 5 of these.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 01:36:02


Post by: DaBraken


C4790M wrote:
Ah, forgot about skyslasher, shame they’re so expensive on forgeworld. Any tips on converting some?


I took the tentaclids from the Hive Crone and put them on small flight base pins. Then I magnetised these tentaclids on normal Ripper Swarm bases. Its more like a kind of token, that shows "this unit is flying" rather than whole unit, but until now, noone complained and you can distinguish them from normal ripper swarms very well.

You could also make whole squads of tentaclids... but its not that easy to get them anywhere separate.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 01:40:44


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:

It's the Malefic Lord / Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker strategy. But these units are brutally undercosted, with malefic lords being 4++ and being 30 points. Astra Militarum psykers are 40 points.

This makes it worthwhile. But at 70 points? Not the same value.

I would rather have units that can be more effective. One or two of these sure, since they can be cheap synapse beacons. But, i'd rather have 2 of these, and a hive tyrant, than 5 of these.


I think this is exactly right.

The two other major draws of the neurothrope are that it is our cheapest HQ, and SITW is one of the only unlimited use tools in the game to counter smite spam. Plus, you still need psykers to counter smite. If you dont intend to use Kronos, I can very easily see taking 3 in a supreme detachment, or a single flyrant+3 heavies in order to get access to the Kronos strat and possibly WL trait.

I'm hoping the first rumor was right at 45 pts, because then we'll have a very viable smite spam platform, but I'm expecting it to be 70.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 01:47:07


Post by: Lance845


The nerothrope might be 70 points, but rumors say cast 2 deny 2 with synapse and sitw with a 3++ (if its stat line stays the same). A supreme command detachment made up of 4 neuros and a malanthrope would be a rock solid foundation for ANY nid list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact. If neros are characters (i expect they will be) i cant imagine why anyone would bring zoeys anymore.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 01:50:24


Post by: luke1705


 Lance845 wrote:
The nerothrope might be 70 points, but rumors say cast 2 deny 2 with synapse and sitw with a 3++ (if its stat line stays the same). A supreme command detachment made up of 4 neuros and a malanthrope would be a rock solid foundation for ANY nid list.


If you take no other tyranid psykers, I would agree with that. But the brood lord is just so good....it's hard to justify not taking a few of them. I think that once GSC gets their own codex, we'll have more appealing options because we'll want to take GSC Broodlords more...but currently there is (IMO) not enough of a reason to take them because the buffs don't criss cross and the GSC stealers aren't good enough to justify taking a GSC detachment.

I dream of a world where both Nid and GSC stealers work together in harmony, and I can take Broodlords from both armies. So many good psychic powers for both armies.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 01:55:40


Post by: Lance845


I agree broodlords are good. I just think 4 neros and a malanthrope, regardless of what else you take, is the most durable and best synaprtic web we have ever seen.

Ever.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 02:32:00


Post by: luke1705


 Lance845 wrote:
I agree broodlords are good. I just think 4 neros and a malanthrope, regardless of what else you take, is the most durable and best synaprtic web we have ever seen.

Ever.


Nah that was 6th edition flyrants. But yeah that's a good strat.

And worth pointing out that broodlords can smite too. And are infinitely durable because they can't be targeted.

I just don't think the smite spam is cheap enough. If it was actually 45 points for a neurothrope, I would be lining up to buy 3. But at 70 points per...eh. I'll pass. Heck, a single zoan does the same thing, more or less, for 50 points, right? Is the neurothrope's second cast really worth that much when we likely will have other psykers in our list to cast those powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and is there a fight twice for an infantry unit strat? I thought I saw that somewhere for 3 CP


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 03:33:40


Post by: Insectum7


Yeah but I think Zoans have a min squad size of 3.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 04:08:47


Post by: Lance845


Zoans have a min size of 3 and they can be targetted. Again, if nerothropes are characters, and they have been separated out as single hqs so they really should be, its a 3++ character that provides synapse, shadow in the warp, and can deny 2 powers, and cast 2. Just beinf a character makes the extra 25 points from one zoanthrope to a neurothrope worth it.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 04:53:38


Post by: Traceoftoxin


At 45 pts with 2 casts and 2 denies, Neurothropes are probably the best non-unique psykers in the game.

At 70 pts, they're still one of the best, but can't put out the volume of smite as the cheaper casters. Though they still deny at nearly the same efficiency (With the added -1 penalty within 18").

Depending on specifics, I think will be either very good, or best-in-game-conversation good.

That, of course, would also change with a smite nerf.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 06:39:51


Post by: Amishprn86


Neurothropes are going to be number 1 pick HQ's

Nids need them tho IMO, i feel we will need 2-3 fleets to form a good army, while 1 will be more fun/fluffy.

For 70pts they will be characters, there is no reason to increase the price by 40% unless it cant be target.