Looks like they've also gone with the "If you can't beat em, join em" route regarding Vanilla WoW servers. It'd be funny if they reverted all the way back including the god awful first character models they had for high elves.
Glad to see they're finally bringing back the Kul Tiras in the game, Jaina's definitely going to be playing a big role there considering she's part of the ruling family there. Not crazy about the Zandalari though, they seem to constantly go in and out as a faction for the storyline.
Also, is it just me or did they make Sylvanas seem a lot more Night Elfy with her depiction in the trailer?
Also, is it just me or did they make Sylvanas seem a lot more Night Elfy with her depiction in the trailer?
They did that a while back.
I like the look of Kul Tiras. Zandalar is just more troll stuff, don't really care.
And after years of back and forth on Faction War but Only Together Can We Defeat <Insert Enemy X>, I really don't care about the Faction War.
At all.
Interesting that the significant parts of it are purely PvE though.
The subraces would be interesting... if more of them were established subraces. Yeah they introduced blood elves: night edition and cows, mountain edition* last expansion, but dark irons and zandalar are the only ones of any real significance. And the Zandalar don't make sense as joiners- their entire schtick is they think of themselves as superior to every other troll, and other races barely register as sapients to them. Turning them around with 'For da Horde' is laughable.
*though just finally got the elk antlers working on the females, I see. The Legion versions of the females are just normal tauren.
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I do find it weird that the cinematic tries to sell the horde as sympathetic after a steady decade of villainizing them, pretty irredeemably. It actually makes the expansion a harder sell for me. Pick a theme and stick with it, writers.
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Let's see, other things:
new background race of furries (fox-cats) that no one has ever met before, because reasons (possibly the cat pirate in the My Little Pony movie, if the features cinematic at 1:38 is any indication).
a couple hints at old gods, or at least tentacle things in place.
more corrupted elves, because blood elves and blood elves++ weren't enough, now alliance gets even more emo blood elves, because the creepy sex kids in Goldshire needed a new fix
I actually like the burn the (other faction) out of (our) continent and now that is yours and this is ours angle. It seems a straightforward and sensible division of things, and... obviates the need for a faction war at all. Oh well. Given how insanely unworkable the battlelines were after cataclysm (they looped in and out of each other, with no possible functional supply lines), this is a badly needed change.
I just hope these changes actually get reflected in the world. It's been super weird to have Jaina going on and on (and on) about how Theramore was all blowed up when you could just... go there, and it was fine.
And now she's quoting Daddy the Genocidal Maniac, so that should be fun.
Honestly, if they're going to do an all-out faction war expansion, they need to do a Warcraft 4 to actually fight out that conflict.
Ashiraya wrote: The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.
Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.
And Garosh. And is Grimtotem still leader of the Tauren?
Watched both videos. For the first time ever, I think I can say that I feel absolutely no interest in the expansion. There's nothing that really grabs me and draws me in. In the past, the draw was always some great external threat. But there's nothing like that in the new trailers.
I'd hoped that we were finally going to start getting off-world (i.e. both Azeroth and Draenor), something that's been hinted at since Vanilla and to a greater extent in Burning Crusade. But it appears that still won't be happening.
Ashiraya wrote: The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.
Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.
And Garosh. And is Grimtotem still leader of the Tauren?
No Grimtotem has ever led the Tauren in WoW AFAIK; it was Cairne Bloodhoof, then after his death his son Baine took over. There was a minor power grab directly after Cairne's death, but it was so short-lived it barely counts.
I wouldn't exactly say Garrosh counts, either; he's more of a Sylvanas-level Horde villain. Neither the Trolls nor the Tauren truly supported his warmongering, and the Blood Elves started coming around to his ill-fit as warchief in time, too. His only real loyalty came from his own people--who even then were fractured--not the entirety of the Horde, and I never really got the impression that the Alliance were fighting a united enemy.
Ashiraya wrote: The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.
Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.
Eh.
Cataclysm and Pandaria was all about the evil chieftain and easily led followers (ie, most of the Horde, including the players) who were ridiculous warmongers all over the place- Gilneas, the mana bomb in the Stone Talons, the general aggression and exploitation in Ashenvale and Stonetalon, etc, etc. and then on to paint the content of Pandaria red...
Draenor was all about how orcs were in fact inherently evil, even in their natural state without demon influence. (well, and a movie tie in, to remind people of who these characters even were)
Legion was... well, not about the factions (or the players), mostly Khadgar again, but definitely showed Sylvie as evil. [Except, oddly enough the starting Burning Shore event. Sylvanus walking away from the initial battle (and King Idiot) was a sudden bout of common sense in a terribly planned invasion that was just horribly stupid from start to finish]. But since Cataclysm most of Sylvanus' evil has been as much for the Horde as for herself- it's why she's so puzzled by Garrosh's response to the valkyr in the second (Cataclysm-revamped) undead zone. And why there is a big garrison of orcs near the ocean ready for the invasion of gilneas (which was a Horde-wide thing, not just a Sylvanus thing, despite what they are having Genn convey in Legion).
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@Eumerin- I'm rather glad they didn't turn it into not!starcraft invaders. It's unclear what the point would be to tooling around in space after the Legion is wrapped up (for now )
I guess the players could go beat up even-more-bigger Lovecraftian knock-offs (though there is still one left back home), but that seems unsatisfying.
The game really needs to be dragged back down from 'and now even-more-epic-than-epic!' They tossed out the most famous artifacts of the entire lore (and a bunch of other crap no one had heard of to fill the void for the plethora of specializations), crushed the everything-ending threat of the entire universe.... its honestly time to cool it or, frankly, do a sequel with a better tech base on the game side, and a more coherent story with a consistent setting bible supporting the decisions (rather than ridiculous retcons and changes of direction).
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@Avatar720- The Grimtotems briefly took over off camera after Cairne's death (mostly in one of the novels), but it only lasted a few days, with Baine getting support from Jaina to retake Thunder Bluff. Its pretty much not referenced in game, but that's sadly true of a lot of stuff that happens in the WoW universe- if you really pay attention to quest text, you might catch a hint of something, but largely the story happens in mediocre to terrible Christie Golden novels.
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@Eumerin- I'm rather glad they didn't turn it into not!starcraft invaders. It's unclear what the point would be to tooling around in space after the Legion is wrapped up (for now )
I guess the players could go beat up even-more-bigger Lovecraftian knock-offs (though there is still one left back home), but that seems unsatisfying.
There will be something waiting in the wings. Players will probably find out who the "real" enemy is after finishing the initial storyline.
its honestly time to cool it or, frankly, do a sequel with a better tech base on the game side, and a more coherent story with a consistent setting bible supporting the decisions (rather than ridiculous retcons and changes of direction).
Probably this, really. It's great for Blizzard that the game is still pulling in a lot of people. But the intro stuff really does feel like grasping at straws. "Come play the new expansion where we fight the war that's been fought since the game started!"
Is the draw supposed to be that the Alliance is actually fighting back now?
Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.
TheCustomLime wrote: Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.
Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!
Dreadwinter wrote: The new Allied Races look interesting to me. I want to know what the sub-race for the Forsaken will be.
Also, not sure why people are calling Sylvanas a villain. She was the one who opposed Garrosh from the start.
IMO, Genn Greymane is a villain for everything he has done. Sylvanas was the better person there.
?
Sylvanas likely only opposed Garrosh because he was tightly holding her leash after the whole Plague debacle during TFT (Which Sylvanas knew nothing about! Swearsies!). In Cataclysm, one of the things you learn during the Worgen starting storyline is that Garosh expressly ordered Sylvanas not to use the plague during the invasion of Gilneas, but she did so anyway.
Is Genn Greymane angry at Sylvanas?
Yes. But it's mostly because she used the plague to turn his homeland into a chemical and biological mess during the invasion.
TheCustomLime wrote: Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.
Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!
Alliance
•Lightforged Draenei
•Void Elves
•Dark Iron Dwarves
From what I was reading, apparently you have to complete a quest to unlock each race. Once you do that, you can create new character of that race who all start at level 20.
Dreadwinter wrote: The new Allied Races look interesting to me. I want to know what the sub-race for the Forsaken will be.
Also, not sure why people are calling Sylvanas a villain. She was the one who opposed Garrosh from the start.
IMO, Genn Greymane is a villain for everything he has done. Sylvanas was the better person there.
?
Sylvanas likely only opposed Garrosh because he was tightly holding her leash after the whole Plague debacle during TFT (Which Sylvanas knew nothing about! Swearsies!). In Cataclysm, one of the things you learn during the Worgen starting storyline is that Garosh expressly ordered Sylvanas not to use the plague during the invasion of Gilneas, but she did so anyway.
Is Genn Greymane angry at Sylvanas?
Yes. But it's mostly because she used the plague to turn his homeland into a chemical and biological mess during the invasion.
TheCustomLime wrote: Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.
Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!
Alliance
•Lightforged Draenei
•Void Elves
•Dark Iron Dwarves
From what I was reading, apparently you have to complete a quest to unlock each race. Once you do that, you can create new character of that race who all start at level 20.
She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.
I had seen the list of sub-races, just not the factions they were supposed to be on, I just assumed that Nightborne and Void Elves were swapped based on their character models. Interested to see that. I think the Highmountain Tauren have one OP charge racial though. I am assuming that will be hit with the nerfbat.
Dreadwinter wrote: [She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.
Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.
Dreadwinter wrote: [She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.
Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.
Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.
Dreadwinter wrote: [She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.
Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.
Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.
?
Where exactly are you pulling *THAT* from? I've yet to see any evidence that anyone outside of Gilneas knew that the curse was present there before the Horde invasion. The place was locked up tight due to Greymane's isolationist policies. There was a Worgen population outside of Gilneas, but they had become that way because of Arugal in Shadowfang Keep. And that population was just as cut off from Gilneas as everyone else.
Your other argument basically amounts to the theory that because Garrosh was crazy, ignoring his order to NOT turn Gilneas into a toxic waste dump was a good idea. Not buying it.
Dreadwinter wrote: [She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.
Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.
Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.
?
Where exactly are you pulling *THAT* from? I've yet to see any evidence that anyone outside of Gilneas knew that the curse was present there before the Horde invasion. The place was locked up tight due to Greymane's isolationist policies. There was a Worgen population outside of Gilneas, but they had become that way because of Arugal in Shadowfang Keep. And that population was just as cut off from Gilneas as everyone else.
Your other argument basically amounts to the theory that because Garrosh was crazy, ignoring his order to NOT turn Gilneas into a toxic waste dump was a good idea. Not buying it.
The fact that Silverpine Forests original story focuses a lot on the Curse, where it comes from, and why it needs to be stopped. They went further with this in Cataclysm in the Night Elf area as well as in Duskshire, talking about how if the curse had gone unchecked, it would consume the world. Something something about the Scythe of Elune. Yeah, there was a lot more to it than Gilneas and Shadowfang Keep.
Turning Gilneas in to a toxic dump would have been the preferable solution to the infection spreading, as they were not aware that some Gilneans with the curse were recovering and becoming sentient beings again.
Garrosh wasn't evil in cataclysm. They threw in his face heel turn in MoP but the fact that the horde rebelled tells me that they are not evil either.
Also, Dreadwinter, you are aware that Sylvanas is revealed as wanting to use the scythe to turn all humans into worgen during the gilneas starting experience, right? She used the plague because the gilneans were beating her back.
Sylvanas is so terrible. I wish Stormheim have us the option to tell her to go feth herself when she tries to divert the player's attention from the hunt for the aegis of aggramar for her own schemes.
Ashiraya wrote: Garrosh wasn't evil in cataclysm. They threw in his face heel turn in MoP but the fact that the horde rebelled tells me that they are not evil either.
Also, Dreadwinter, you are aware that Sylvanas is revealed as wanting to use the scythe to turn all humans into worgen during the gilneas starting experience, right? She used the plague because the gilneans were beating her back.
Sylvanas is so terrible. I wish Stormheim have us the option to tell her to go feth herself when she tries to divert the player's attention from the hunt for the aegis of aggramar for her own schemes.
It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.
Her own schemes was the survival of her own people and that is an optional questline in the zone, do not need it to finish it. So you can tell her that. Garrosh turning heel started LONG before Cataclysm, he was starting to show signs very early in Wrath. Saurfang even brings it up in the Boreal Tundra starting zone.
Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...
Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,
Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,
Killed Prince Greymane,
Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),
Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,
Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,
And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).
How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.
Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas
Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...
Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,
Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,
Killed Prince Greymane,
Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),
Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,
Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,
And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).
How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.
Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people? Genn is no hero by any means. He is the one who ordered the Worgen to be summoned in the first place, bringing the curse down on his own people. Hell, he let his people suffer right up until his own son was killed, then finally broke down and realized he needed help. Genn is a pretty inept leader, honestly. Even going so far as to condemn his whole people just because his son was killed, which pushed the conflict with the Forsaken even further.
Sylvanas is fighting a war for the survival of her people. Taking Stormwind and Teldrassil just makes sense. Remember, she is one of the greatest Generals the High Elves ever had, she is a fighter. Not going to just sit back and let her people die.
The whole "Sylvanas is the worst!" argument is pretty terrible. She isn't even the most evil faction leader in the game. In my opinion, Genn falls easily in to that position. Sylvanas had her curse forced on her, Genn ordered Arugal to summon his curse, nearly damning his entire people in the process.
Sylvanas is trying to literally kill people and raise them, and her only reason to want to do it was because it was revealed she is so reprehensible that she is going to the same place as Arthas.
Her trying to create more Undead abominations has put her on Arthas tier. Dont even pretend she cares for her people, her Cataclysm short story proves she does not.
She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace. She only burns Teldrassil because of an artifact recovered from Argus. Her attempt at Stormwind obviously never even happens or fails.
Genn condemning his people because his son died? He saved his people. The Gilneans were winning until the Blight started making the land literally uninhabitable, and the order to withdraw was because it was the choice between dying horribly or bailing, and the only safe harbour was with the Night Elves that arrived to help them.
Sylvanas was sent to claim a port for the Horde, and instead she ended up giving the Horde a new enemy, and the port useless since it was filled with flesh melting gas. And you claim
Genn is incompetent? Hell, she trusted a Dreadlord - a race that literally gets by on deceit. Their whole schtick is to work their way into the power structures of resistance and undermine them. And she invited him in!
Arugal originally offered to summon creatures to fight the Scourge, which got out of Arugals control and drove him quite insane. The Scourge was literally beating down the Greymane wall until they were driven off.
I dont know how anyone can try to defend the one character who is absolutely evil on the two factions. Genn stopped Sylvanas from enslaving another being and the creation of more Undead abominations. Not even most undead like being undead. Sylvanas doesnt like being undead. Its just better than the darkest pits of hell for her.
Dreadwinter wrote: It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.
Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...
Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,
Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,
Killed Prince Greymane,
Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),
Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,
Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,
And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).
How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.
Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people? Genn is no hero by any means. He is the one who ordered the Worgen to be summoned in the first place, bringing the curse down on his own people. Hell, he let his people suffer right up until his own son was killed, then finally broke down and realized he needed help. Genn is a pretty inept leader, honestly. Even going so far as to condemn his whole people just because his son was killed, which pushed the conflict with the Forsaken even further.
Sylvanas is fighting a war for the survival of her people. Taking Stormwind and Teldrassil just makes sense. Remember, she is one of the greatest Generals the High Elves ever had, she is a fighter. Not going to just sit back and let her people die.
The whole "Sylvanas is the worst!" argument is pretty terrible. She isn't even the most evil faction leader in the game. In my opinion, Genn falls easily in to that position. Sylvanas had her curse forced on her, Genn ordered Arugal to summon his curse, nearly damning his entire people in the process.
How is murdering people and forcing them into undeath not evil? By that logic the Scourge wasn't evil either. Genn is a stupid hot head but is far, far less evil than Sylvanas.
Yeah, at this point Sylvanas is a mini-Lich Queen all but in name. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if (god forbid) the end game raid boss is her ala Garrosh 2.0 in Siege of Orgrimmar 2, Electric Boogaloo.
Her being warchief never made sense to me, and it seems contrived that Voljin basically had to be wounded (and I presume delirious) unto death to declare her his successor after the voices in his head (er...I mean Ioa spirits) told him to do so.
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?
This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping off arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.
Dreadwinter wrote: It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.
Have you done the quests at all?
Oh yeah, on all sides. Silverpine was my favorite zone in Vanilla and continued through Cataclysm.
She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.
Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.
Genn condemning his people because his son died? He saved his people. The Gilneans were winning until the Blight started making the land literally uninhabitable, and the order to withdraw was because it was the choice between dying horribly or bailing, and the only safe harbour was with the Night Elves that arrived to help them.
Sure, if you consider cursing your people because of your pride and arrogance to be saving them. He could have fled with his people or accepted the help of Stormwind and the Alliance. Instead he made the dumbest decision possible.
Sylvanas was sent to claim a port for the Horde, and instead she ended up giving the Horde a new enemy, and the port useless since it was filled with flesh melting gas. And you claim
Genn is incompetent? Hell, she trusted a Dreadlord - a race that literally gets by on deceit. Their whole schtick is to work their way into the power structures of resistance and undermine them. And she invited him in!
Oh yeah, Genn is for sure incompetent. He makes the dumbest decisions based on his need for revenge. Sure, Sylvanas made a really bad decision in trusting Varimathras, but he is a Dreadlord and it is his job to infiltrate things. He is a Dreadlord.
Arugal originally offered to summon creatures to fight the Scourge, which got out of Arugals control and drove him quite insane. The Scourge was literally beating down the Greymane wall until they were driven off.
Arugal was ordered by Genn to summon them to fight. Without knowing exactly what it would have done. I am sure the Kirin Tor would have told him, had Greymane not sealed his wall and refused all help. Again, bad leader is bad.
I dont know how anyone can try to defend the one character who is absolutely evil on the two factions. Genn stopped Sylvanas from enslaving another being and the creation of more Undead abominations. Not even most undead like being undead. Sylvanas doesnt like being undead. Its just better than the darkest pits of hell for her.
Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.
Remember, she jumped on to Varian's airship to fight with him, rode it down to the shore as it was crashing then still fought with him. She only retreated when her Warchief, as well as Thrall, were at risk of being killed. She was also under the orders of Vol'jin himself, one of the few leaders in the game that could be seen as being a "good guy". Using the Valkyr to save them, another reason she wanted the powerful constructs.
But sure, she is just as bad as Arthas. Despite raising Forsaken with free will, allowing them to leave to join other factions such as the Argent Dawn and live out their lives. But GRRRR UNDEAD SHE IS NEW ARTHAS GRRRR!
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?
This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?
This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.
He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?
This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.
Underrated post.
This post makes absolutely no sense. The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination. If they did, there are easy ways out of it. They can just kill themselves again and in the process destroy their body to the point that nobody can resurrect it. Instead, many see this as a second chance at life. Play through the Tirisfal Glades quests in Cataclysm and see how Lillian Voss deals with it. She hates it at first and seeks her father to redeem her. But instead she is cast away as a monster, even though that is far from the truth. She then embraces her undeath, seeing the Scarlet Crusade for what it really is. She finds her redemption in a different way. To protecting the Forsaken she hated and fought against for so long.
She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.
Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.
Wrong Wrynn. Varian is stabbed and charred pile of fel goop.
Ashiraya is talking about Anduin, the current king, who has consistently been about peace.
Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.
Uh... no. Sylvanus has always only been out for herself. She's never been loyal, let alone 'most loyal.' Most of the Horde has accused her of being an abomination as well- at best treating her as an ally of convenience. It might be worth reading War Crimes (novel) and Dark Mirror (short story on the website), for some insight into Sylvanus.
She really isn't capable of positive emotions- the closest she comes is imaging how close she could be to her remaining sister (since the other one was lost at the time) by killing her and raising her as forsaken.
I get liking Sylvanus, I really do. She's the only strong character the Horde has left. But she was and is a monster, and very committed to being monstrous.
The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination
Actually, no. The problem is the game fails to convey that effectively. The fluff does a better job, but the game barely brushes against the background, and is often confusing when it does.
But the forsaken aren't just normal people who happen to be undead. They're monsters that feast on the living, create plagues to kill more of the living (which you can see in action and participate in the revamped zones from Cata, long after the Wrathgate betrayal that 'supposedly' Sylvanus didn't know about), and generally happy feasting on the living, being warmongers slaughtering their way through Southshore and a myriad of other places, doing bizarre experiments and doing the bidding of the banshee queen without question or remorse. While this is a sort of boring presentation of undead, it is what the game presents.
She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.
Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.
Wrong Wrynn. Varian is stabbed and charred pile of fel goop.
Ashiraya is talking about Anduin, the current king, who has consistently been about peace.
Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.
Uh... no. Sylvanus has always only been out for herself. She's never been loyal, let alone 'most loyal.' Most of the Horde has accused her of being an abomination as well- at best treating her as an ally of convenience. It might be worth reading War Crimes (novel) and Dark Mirror (short story on the website), for some insight into Sylvanus.
She really isn't capable of positive emotions- the closest she comes is imaging how close she could be to her remaining sister (since the other one was lost at the time) by killing her and raising her as forsaken.
I get liking Sylvanus, I really do. She's the only strong character the Horde has left. But she was and is a monster, and very committed to being monstrous.
The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination
Actually, no. The problem is the game fails to convey that effectively. The fluff does a better job, but the game barely brushes against the background, and is often confusing when it does.
But the forsaken aren't just normal people who happen to be undead. They're monsters that feast on the living, create plagues to kill more of the living (which you can see in action and participate in the revamped zones from Cata, long after the Wrathgate betrayal that 'supposedly' Sylvanus didn't know about), and generally happy feasting on the living, being warmongers slaughtering their way through Southshore and a myriad of other places, doing bizarre experiments and doing the bidding of the banshee queen without question or remorse. While this is a sort of boring presentation of undead, it is what the game presents.
Ah, Anduin. I will agree he is one of the few good leaders. But he has had very little influence in any negotiations in the past 5 years. In fact, he hasn't even been king for 5 years.
If Sylvanus had always been out for herself, she could have easily backstabbed the Horde at any point and taken over. They have been weakened before to the point that a takeover was possible. However, she stepped up and supported them. Much like how she stepped up and supported the Blood Elves when they were introduced. Which again, proved she is not out for just herself.
Actually, yes. The game IS the end all be all as far as the lore goes. What happens in the game is the canon of the game. Believe me, I understand your frustration with the fluff contradicting the game. I have been reading the novels for years. Lived through the retcons. Poor poor Day of the Dragon, it was a decent book. But if you are asking me to take all of the fluff as gospel, you have to as well. You cannot say she 'supposedly' did not know about it. You have accept she did not know about it. I mean, she was only involved in the siege of her own city to kill Varimathras and take control of her own kingdom again. The Forsaken enjoy their lives, otherwise they would end it. What they do not enjoy is the fact their loved ones despise them for some reason now, even though they do NOT have to "feast on the living" in order to live. As far as Southshore and Hillsbrad, that was a conflict between the two from when the Forsaken were just getting their feet. It has always been there. Ending the conflict was necessary for securing her borders, protecting herself as well as the Blood Elves from Alliance incursions. Acts of War in a game about War.
She is not the terrible monster people make her out to be. She is no angel at all. But she is not the devil incarnate.
Dreadwinter wrote: The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination. If they did, there are easy ways out of it. They can just kill themselves again and in the process destroy their body to the point that nobody can resurrect it. Instead, many see this as a second chance at life.
Undeath as a second chance at life would be a more compelling argument if it wasn't so often the end of their first.
The primary problem with Alliance vs Horde is just that for every time they've found a common enemy and a reason to work together, they've failed to make players feel any resentment when hostilities resume. They keep doing it because the Horde occasionally needs some "For the Horde!" unity in the form of some mischief and false villainy, but it's been noble and heroic far too long for anyone to feel like they're the proper bad guys. Players need to actually want to fight with the other side for a change and not just be told that they're at war with Eurasia again.
Not all Forsaken that have been risen are like that. The original Forsaken in Vanilla were not, they were the dead left from the sacking of Lordaeron by Arthas and the Forsaken in the area who broke free of his will at the end of WC3.
I would say the mere fact that she hasn't engaged in some backstabbing is proof that she's only in it for herself- and her people. Let's face it, the Forsaken have always been 2nd class citizens of the horde. But they've got one thing going for them- they're essentially immortal.
That, combined with the host of foes the horde and alliance have managed to defeat, undoubtedly gives Sylvanas the long view. As long as she can keep the Horde from actively seeking to eradicate the Forsaken, she will win. Their leaders come and go with alarming regularity- and the longer the status quo remains the more land the Forsaken gain control of, and the more vile their experiments become. Once Thrall takes his hippy self off to become one with the Earth Mother, the last real threat to her dominance will be gone.
Ultimately, she will undoubtedly betray them- but probably once peace has been established for a generation or so, by switching sides, or serving as a neutral bridge to the Alliance. Expect the betrayal to be worldwide, poison based, and meticulously planned. Honestly I would be shocked if she wasn't working on resurrecting Deathwing right now. Picture simultaneous undead dragon attacks on the frontlines, and poisoning of every major food source at the same time.
Gitzbitah wrote:I would say the mere fact that she hasn't engaged in some backstabbing is proof that she's only in it for herself- and her people. Let's face it, the Forsaken have always been 2nd class citizens of the horde. But they've got one thing going for them- they're essentially immortal.
That, combined with the host of foes the horde and alliance have managed to defeat, undoubtedly gives Sylvanas the long view. As long as she can keep the Horde from actively seeking to eradicate the Forsaken, she will win. Their leaders come and go with alarming regularity- and the longer the status quo remains the more land the Forsaken gain control of, and the more vile their experiments become. Once Thrall takes his hippy self off to become one with the Earth Mother, the last real threat to her dominance will be gone.
Ultimately, she will undoubtedly betray them- but probably once peace has been established for a generation or so, by switching sides, or serving as a neutral bridge to the Alliance. Expect the betrayal to be worldwide, poison based, and meticulously planned. Honestly I would be shocked if she wasn't working on resurrecting Deathwing right now. Picture simultaneous undead dragon attacks on the frontlines, and poisoning of every major food source at the same time.
Okay, then she is really making bad choices about flying under the radar. Being one of the main people the Horde relies on, as well as their best general, puts her right in the spotlight. Her troops are almost everywhere in the Horde at almost all levels. Taking the title of Warchief would be the dumbest thing she could possibly do if she was just playing the long game. Now you have an immortal leader of the Horde. Thrall is the only Horde leader that has vacated the position while living. The position has an abysmal survival rate. Not good for Sylvanas. She is in a tricky position now.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: This is some serious revisionism to try and paint Sylvanas and her actions as somehow good.
Then you aren't understanding the argument. I have stated that she is by no means an angel, but she is not the monster people seem to be making her out to be.
In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.
In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.
She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.
Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"
Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.
She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.
In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.
She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.
Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"
Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.
She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.
Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.
The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.
You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.
Actually, yes. The game IS the end all be all as far as the lore goes. What happens in the game is the canon of the game.
That just doesn't work. The game time skips (particularly at expansion launches) and simply does not cover much (or even most) of the background. Like it or not, most of the canon comes from Christie Golden (and assorted others).
Believe me, I understand your frustration with the fluff contradicting the game. I have been reading the novels for years. Lived through the retcons. Poor poor Day of the Dragon, it was a decent book. But if you are asking me to take all of the fluff as gospel, you have to as well.
Obviously not all of it, because retcons. Though I'm not talking about the fluff contradicting the game- I'm talking about the fluff being the only source of information for the many, many things the game doesn't cover. (like for example, how Garrosh got to alternate Draenor, and what Sylvanus was doing during that time- plotting multiple murders)
But the fluff clearly paints her as a monster. I'm not sure what contradiction to that you want me to accept.
You cannot say she 'supposedly' did not know about it. You have accept she did not know about it. I mean, she was only involved in the siege of her own city to kill Varimathras and take control of her own kingdom again.
I don't have to accept that, actually. That the dread lord she picked up betrayed her was clear, but that doesn't mean she wasn't involved in everything up to that point.
Either way, of course she has to be part of the siege- either because she wants it back, or to hide the fact that she was part of it AND wanting it back.
The Forsaken enjoy their lives, otherwise they would end it.
This is a borderline tautology, and not particularly meaningful. It isn't even particularly true, depending on the nature of undeath. What information we have about Sylvanus indicates she absolutely does not enjoy her unlife. She endures it, and takes satisfaction from her darker nature.
What they do not enjoy is the fact their loved ones despise them for some reason now, even though they do NOT have to "feast on the living" in order to live.
No, they do that because they enjoy it. Because they're monsters. Also 'for some reason' is pretty clear- the undead were a plague that were murdering everything, often wearing the faces of friends and family. That seems a quite reasonable reason to not like the undead.
Watching little Timmy tearing out Sally's throat isn't forgiven because they serve a different monster now.
As far as Southshore and Hillsbrad, that was a conflict between the two from when the Forsaken were just getting their feet. It has always been there.
And called off during the numerous working together events. The attack on Southshore was a surprise attack during the Hordes sudden reversion to warmongering post Cata.
Ending the conflict was necessary for securing her borders, protecting herself as well as the Blood Elves from Alliance incursions. Acts of War in a game about War.
Those borders could have been secured anywhere across any of several zones. Not that any of the borders anywhere are particularly secure- many of the Cata refits to zones have one factions outposts right next to their opposite's entrance to the zone, and then alternating their way across the map.
Despite the name, it isn't particularly a game about war. It's a game about forcing people to come together to beat up the big bads, and also feeling a bizarre need to give increasingly outrageous 'story' justifications to the PvP community that they won't even care about.
-----
In light of that, what's interesting about this expansion is they seem to have completely dropped PvP from the PvE zones. The Horde adventures exclusively over here and has these dungeons, and the Alliance adventures over there and has those dungeons. And all 'enemy' interactions are NPC mobs (through the 'warfronts'), or unrelated PVPs battlegrounds. But most of the new expansion will be beating up completely unrelated threats to Kul Turas and the Zandalari that has nothing to do with the 'faction war.'
Okay okay, so you are telling me World of Warcraft, a game about the conflict between the two main factions, is not a game about war?
Hold on, laughing too hard. I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak. But that one is pretty good. Yeah, it is becoming clear that you A)Haven't actually played through the Forsaken quests and read them and B) Have little understanding of the games lore and how the fluff outside of the game is just a supplement, often retconned to no longer be cannon
Dreadwinter wrote: Okay okay, so you are telling me World of Warcraft, a game about the conflict between the two main factions, is not a game about war?
No, it isn't. Wow is about playing a hero and doing quests like its a 9-5 job. Killing monsters and taking treasures.
It's about killing Illidan (oops)
Killing the Lich King
Exploring pandaland
Defeating Alternate Universe Orc bosses, who are just as bad as Demon Corrupted Original Universe Orc Bosses.
Bringing back the now-destined savior (complete with a new book by William King which contradicted the old game information) to banish the Burning Legion.
Hold on, laughing too hard. I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak. But that one is pretty good. Yeah, it is becoming clear that you A)Haven't actually played through the Forsaken quests and read them and B) Have little understanding of the games lore and how the fluff outside of the game is just a supplement, often retconned to no longer be cannon
A) How so? Any evidence, or are you just dismissing the argument because you can't refute it?
B) The game's lore is largely dictated by the books. While the old books have largely been tossed, the newer books are what is held up as 'true.' Whatever the source of the major conflict is in the new expansion, a huge part of it is in Sylvanus book and her plans for attacking Stormwind.
A lot of the retcons happened to game-only stuff- like the old Scythe of Elune quests, (which is now just a toy for blaster druids), that it was once the source of a pocket dimension of werewolves is now no longer true.
The game doesn't show why Varian goes from a racist warmonger to someone willing to take Garrosh prisoner and leave Ogrimmar intact after the Siege- the books do.
The game, particularly during Burning Crusade, didn't show Illidan getting coordinates for Argus and blowing up the dreadlord homeworld, the books do.
And on and on.
Without them, a lot of the game is incomprehensible nonsense, without rhyme or reason for much of what is going on.
I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak.
Somewhat, unless you actually interact with Forsaken NPCs and listen to them nattering on about killing the living, which even the shopkeepers do. Or is that not canon enough for you?
Dreadwinter, you've also still not addressed her whole "murder family members and raise them as undead" deal she's willing to do as well. I mean if that doesn't raise red flags of her being a villain I don't know what does. Unless you want to hide it behind "Oh she wants them to be immortal, just like her!".
ZebioLizard2 wrote: In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.
In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.
She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.
Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"
Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.
She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.
Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.
The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.
You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.
So yeah. LOL
Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.
Lady Sylvanas has called upon the Royal Apothecary Society. The Dark Lady believes our knowledge coupled with the newfound magic will provide the key to Arthas's demise. She has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin.
According to the Deathguard, another one of those foolish Dwarven Mountaineers has just been captured. The Deathguard likes to use the cellar of the Gallows End Tavern as a holding cell until prisoners can be "properly" dealt with.
Why don't you go see how the Captured Mountaineer enjoys this special drink I made for him? It contains a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth.
She planned to use it on the Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge.. The only rogue element of the Royal Apothecary society was Grand Apothecary Putress and those in his inner circle who joined up with Varimathras.
The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.
You were sent to clean up mostly because he was experimenting on Forsaken that turned them feral.. Which is a crime punishable by True Death by Sylvanas. Given that you can just beat the humans to death that were planted in the ground it seems nobody really gives a damn given they are still healthy.
You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments
That's cute, but you avoid everything it seems and don't really have solid ground to stand on that she isn't monstrous, you avoided the tidbit about how she planned to poison her sister and force her under the banner of the Forsaken..
Grimskul wrote: Dreadwinter, you've also still not addressed her whole "murder family members and raise them as undead" deal she's willing to do as well. I mean if that doesn't raise red flags of her being a villain I don't know what does. Unless you want to hide it behind "Oh she wants them to be immortal, just like her!".
Again, by no means am I saying she is an angel. But she is not the monster she is being drug around as. As far as her sister goes, this falls back on the Horde vs Alliance thing. She wants to bring her sister back to the Horde. It is a smart move on her part. A little bad? Yeah. Is she killing her sister out of spite? No.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.
In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.
She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.
Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"
Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.
She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.
Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.
The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.
You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.
So yeah. LOL
Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.
Lady Sylvanas has called upon the Royal Apothecary Society. The Dark Lady believes our knowledge coupled with the newfound magic will provide the key to Arthas's demise. She has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin.
According to the Deathguard, another one of those foolish Dwarven Mountaineers has just been captured. The Deathguard likes to use the cellar of the Gallows End Tavern as a holding cell until prisoners can be "properly" dealt with.
Why don't you go see how the Captured Mountaineer enjoys this special drink I made for him? It contains a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth.
She planned to use it on the Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge.. The only rogue element of the Royal Apothecary society was Grand Apothecary Putress and those in his inner circle who joined up with Varimathras.
The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.
You were sent to clean up mostly because he was experimenting on Forsaken that turned them feral.. Which is a crime punishable by True Death by Sylvanas. Given that you can just beat the humans to death that were planted in the ground it seems nobody really gives a damn given they are still healthy.
You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments
That's cute, but you avoid everything it seems and don't really have solid ground to stand on that she isn't monstrous, you avoided the tidbit about how she planned to poison her sister and force her under the banner of the Forsaken..
Also the taunting tone doesn't look good for you.
Okay, the Scarlet Crusade is an enemy of everybody on the planet and so is the Scourge. Not a big loss. Also, the only rogue element of the RAS is the leader of the RAS as well as the overseer and the inner circle? Yeah, the corruption there does not run deep..... lol
You were sent to clean it up because he went rogue and he was experimenting when she expressly forbid these experiments.
Listen, I am cute. But that is besides the point. I have addressed everything that has been mentioned.
Again, by no means am I saying she is an angel. But she is not the monster she is being drug around as. As far as her sister goes, this falls back on the Horde vs Alliance thing. She wants to bring her sister back to the Horde. It is a smart move on her part. A little bad? Yeah. Is she killing her sister out of spite? No.
Given her sister actually was actually planning with her to join to begin with, but backed out at the last minute because she didn't want to abandon her children which is what saved her life.. This expressly and completely nullifies your point as Vereesa was the one who started the whole reconciliation to begin with... Which means that she was planning to kill her all because she wanted to force her to rule the Forsaken alongside her forever... Seriously "a little bad?
Also Vereesa was never part of the horde to begin with. She was with the High Elves and unlike the Blood Elves never turned to siphoning magic from demons.
Okay, the Scarlet Crusade is an enemy of everybody on the planet and so is the Scourge. Not a big loss.
Seems you ignored the quote of "The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth." from one of the people who serve her. Going to address that?
You were sent to clean it up because he went rogue and he was experimenting when she expressly forbid these experiments.
On Forsaken. He was trying to discover a method that didn't involve Val'kyr as he didn't trust them so he was experimenting on humans and Forsaken. The main reason you end up cleaning up the mess was because he captured a Sylvanas agent and was experimenting on him. Not because they gave any damn about the humans. Once again, you can expressly kill them without an issue.
Yeah, never said she was Horde. I understand the differences between High Elves and Blood Elves.
Low level grunt overstates the plans of his boss that his boss has never followed through on. Yeah, great source you got there! People say things. People are often wrong.
So he was experimenting in secret. An agent of Sylvanas is captured by him and experimented on. She sends you to check it out and clean up the mess. The fact that you can kill the humans is just a silly part of the game. Remember, at war with them. Makes sense.
I havent seen this many mental hoops jumped through since I saw a fan of Garrosh argue that Garrosh was a good guy. Though i suppose from a very specific, morally reprehensible point of view, both Garrosh and Sylvanas arent so abd after all.
Genn and Rogers were wrong to go after Sylvanas, until she immediately proved them right by consorting with Helya and then trying to enslave an ally against the Legion. She literally was willing to feth over the world and piss off Odyn to get immortality.
Saying that she didnt know the blight was being made is a laugh. Literally nothing the Forsaken did wasnt on the direct orders of Sylvanas - the Desolate Council forming in her abscence is a shock to both her and Nathanos, and especially that they are not toeing her line. The apothecarieshas the player test it on a Crusader and a Dwarf Mountaineer!
in the Nathanos short story, she literally captures Nathanos' cousin (an Argent Crusader) so that she can make her man look better. She murdered someone for vanity purposes. The Dark Ranger that escorts him even jests about it!
So okay, Genn was wrong to go after Sylvanus, but was proven right when she was forced to make a deal with Helya because of their meddling?
Odyn is an awful leader who doesn't deserve his position. He has basically sat back and watched the world burn because he threw a bossy fit over the Dragon Aspects being made. He could have prevented most, if not all of the problems on Azeroth had he not been a whiner.
"Nothing happens in the Forsaken without Sylvanus know, except this thing that happened without Sylvania knowing." That is just an awful argument.
Edit: I gotta stop posting from my phone, auto correct mangled this post beyond fixing
Ugh. Lots of dribble amongst showing things off- particularly about the stat squish. I wish people understood that the numbers don't matter- the actual aim is to govern time in combat and how many spells/major attacks it takes to drop an enemy.
If your spells peel of 33% of the average enemy health bar, it doesn't matter if they do 300 damage or 43 million damage, the value is entirely cosmetic.
Dreadwinter wrote: "Nothing happens in the Forsaken without Sylvanus know, except this thing that happened without Sylvania knowing." That is just an awful argument.
The question is - is that argument more awful than "None of Sylvanas' underlings realize how benevolent she is"?
Did you just say it was wrong for Genn.. Whose son was killed by Sylvanas (Who complained that it was meant for him right before him), whose kingdom was conquered, his people scattered, and would have been murdered out right if it wasn't for the Alliance? When he has never proved to be a threat to the Forsaken before?
Yeah, there's pretty definitive answers for who you root for that's for sure.
Gotta say, it was nice to see Sylvanas actually 'banshee' for once rather than simply be a different colored elf. And naturally the entire cinematic was amazing, up to Blizzard's usual standards - makes me wish THEY'D done the WC movie.
As for the story, eh, who cares. The dev's have finally run out of off the wall ideas to justify an expansion (I'm staring at you Warlords), so they've gone back to the conflict that started the franchise - H v A. Only it's not humans, elves, and dwarves fighting against Orcs, Goblins, and Ogres...it's Purple Elves fighting Red Elves and Humans fighting Undead humans, and cows and pandas...wait, what?
Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.
Originally Purple elves and Blonde elves weren't fighting at all.
Then some of the Blonde elves became Red Elves (but there were still Blonde elves in the Alliance, you just couldn't play them, because reasons) after the Demon Elves Split off and their Emo boss got carved up, and the Red Elves joined up with the Greens, Cows, Deadites and the Blues (which elves evolved from)
Meanwhile knock-off Red Elves degenerated from Purple Elf refugees had a city and made a pact with demons, and this was just discovered (despite being on the same island where the Purple elf druids had been training for thousands of years)
Oh, and the Demon Elves came back, and join both Team Red and Team Blue.
And then everyone discovered that some Army or other that had disappeared between RTS games was still alive in space, and all those Elves were somehow Red Elves, but they started sucking power from Space rather than well-water that was only uncovered in moonlight or well-water that was only uncovered in sunlight, so these are now Bluish Elves. (To be fair, they were in space, so they didn't have any well-water of any kind)
And with the new expansion the formerly Purple Red Elf knock offs are joining up with Red Elves and the Red Team* , and the formerly Red Bluish Elves are joining up with the Purple Elves and Team Blue.
And you still can't play Blonde Elves that aren't Red or Bluish, because reasons.
*and Team Red includes the Blue things that Elves evolved from, who are also getting the oldest tribe that they all evolved from who are distinguishable by their male's ability to... stand up straight. For whatever reason, females of all the hunched races can all stand completely erect.
Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.
But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.
Justifying her actions lends credence to the whole 'she's just doing what she needs to do' argument - alleviating her of any guilt regarding the atrocities she's been apart of. Color it any way you want, you're arguing that it's OK for her to be a murdering tyrant simply because in order to get gak done you have to be a backstabbing, heartless, evil bitch.
I wonder, are you the same person that made the video 'Garrosh did nothing wrong'?
Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.
But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.
Justifying her actions lends credence to the whole 'she's just doing what she needs to do' argument - alleviating her of any guilt regarding the atrocities she's been apart of. Color it any way you want, you're arguing that it's OK for her to be a murdering tyrant simply because in order to get gak done you have to be a backstabbing, heartless, evil bitch.
I wonder, are you the same person that made the video 'Garrosh did nothing wrong'?
That is a big stretch no matter how you look at it. I am saying in the context of the fantasy world she lives in, she is not even close to the worst monster there is. People are comparing her to the lich king here. Do you not find that ridiculous?
No?
First, that comparison is explicitly drawn -in game-.
Second, and more importantly, she's a ruthless tyrant with an army of undead behind her, with a strong, demonstrated desire to make more undead. She's more than demonstrated a whiling mess to do anything at all for power or survival, including the use of plagues (one of your first tasks out of the 1-6 starting area is help with ingredients for plague testing, something that continues through the entire starter zone, she plague bombs the hell out of Gilneas in the end) and dark bargains. (Variamthas, The Lich King's Valkyr, Helya)
While she currently has less power and less direct control of other undead, the comparison between her and the Lich King is far from ridiculous.
Read the Edge of Night short story, where she gets a look at what is in store for her after her existence is over. It changes her attitude about the forsaken, as tools to be expended (to kill Arthas) to a bulwark... to protect herself.
The next chapter of her story involves planning another attack on humans, and getting personally involved in burning down Telsrassil. And what looks like personally killing a named elf NPC, possibly one of her sisters.
As for being the 'worst' monster. That'd be hard to decide, frankly. But easily part of the top 10.
Honestly that is one of the reasons to play forsaken, to be part of the monsters, not the tree hugging or creepy 'erotic RP' parts of the Horde
Sooo..... after basically working together against "world ending threats" for umpteen expansions, now its all out war between the two sides again? Seriously, let WoW die, and bring WC4 already
Voss wrote: No?
First, that comparison is explicitly drawn -in game-.
Second, and more importantly, she's a ruthless tyrant with an army of undead behind her, with a strong, demonstrated desire to make more undead. She's more than demonstrated a whiling mess to do anything at all for power or survival, including the use of plagues (one of your first tasks out of the 1-6 starting area is help with ingredients for plague testing, something that continues through the entire starter zone, she plague bombs the hell out of Gilneas in the end) and dark bargains. (Variamthas, The Lich King's Valkyr, Helya)
While she currently has less power and less direct control of other undead, the comparison between her and the Lich King is far from ridiculous.
Read the Edge of Night short story, where she gets a look at what is in store for her after her existence is over. It changes her attitude about the forsaken, as tools to be expended (to kill Arthas) to a bulwark... to protect herself.
The next chapter of her story involves planning another attack on humans, and getting personally involved in burning down Telsrassil. And what looks like personally killing a named elf NPC, possibly one of her sisters.
As for being the 'worst' monster. That'd be hard to decide, frankly. But easily part of the top 10.
Honestly that is one of the reasons to play forsaken, to be part of the monsters, not the tree hugging or creepy 'erotic RP' parts of the Horde
Of course that is going to be in the game. Half of the factions in the game think she is the second coming of Arthas, that is part of the whole 'Us vs Them' dynamic the game has going on. One side is going to be against her because one side hates all undead, full stop. However, she has no direct control over her undead and goes so far as to punish her own people for causing them to "go feral". So she has no interest in taking on the same role Arthas had.
Making more undead makes sense for the survival of the Forsaken. Forsaken have been fighting wars. They lose numbers. The only way they reproduce is raising more undead to their ranks. If they don't, the attrition becomes too much. The Forsaken will dissolve, putting the Dark Lady as well as the rest of the Horde at a huge disadvantage to the Alliance, who doesn't really have a race with similar issues.
That isn't what's meant by survival in is context. She isn't interested in the survival of the Forsaken, just the survival of Sylvanus. If she had another group of sacrificial victims around, she'd use them. Arrows in her quiver, as she puts it.
And yes, her means of survival are monstrous. They involve living, thinking beings suffering and dying instead of her. In some cases literally taking her place is the torturous afterlife that awaits her in the Shadowlands. enslavement, murder, <human> sacrifice, attempted genocide, pacts with dark entities for any sort of edge, she's pretty much done it all. First for revenge, now to postpone the inevitable until she can find a way out entirely.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue at this point. She is a monster. There is no reason to believe she won't continue to be a monster now that she's got the Biggest Hat, because her motivations are still primarily self centered, and now there isn't anyone at all to keep a check on her schemes.
Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.
But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.
Justifying her actions lends credence to the whole 'she's just doing what she needs to do' argument - alleviating her of any guilt regarding the atrocities she's been apart of. Color it any way you want, you're arguing that it's OK for her to be a murdering tyrant simply because in order to get gak done you have to be a backstabbing, heartless, evil bitch.
I wonder, are you the same person that made the video 'Garrosh did nothing wrong'?
That is a big stretch no matter how you look at it. I am saying in the context of the fantasy world she lives in, she is not even close to the worst monster there is. People are comparing her to the lich king here. Do you not find that ridiculous?
Except it isn't a stretch. The behavior I described is exactly what she DOES IN THE GAME.
And as for the comparison to the Lich King? Sylvanas is worse - she has the understanding of what is right, the moral compass that could point her in the right direction, but instead...she schemes and destroys. The Lich King, by definition of character, is entirely evil (some might even say the truest of neutrals) meaning that there is no 'good' option for him. He has no moral compass, it's set on 'kill everything because that's what needs to be done'. Sylvanas has chosen her path and happily supplied the bodies that litter it - she's remarkably selfish and wholly evil.
Additionally, the love she gets from Blizzard is remarkably annoying - she's been written into this unbeatable Mary Sue that has completely ruined everything that defined the Horde; martial honor, pride in ones clan (family), and the betterment of Horde society overall. The BLOOD ELVES embody the Horde's values than Sylvanas and her Forsaken ever have and honestly? I've always thought they were a stupid faction anyway that were shoehorned into the Horde because...well, I don't really even know.
The problem with Sylvanas is she does evil crap and then doesn't face the reasonable repercussions of her actions. Everybody around her ends up acting out of character because she's popular not because it makes sense in-universe. I think her being killed off can only help the Forsaken because as it is they are pretty much solely defined by her. Without her the faction might have room to grow.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: The problem with Sylvanas is she does evil crap and then doesn't face the reasonable repercussions of her actions. Everybody around her ends up acting out of character because she's popular not because it makes sense in-universe. I think her being killed off can only help the Forsaken because as it is they are pretty much solely defined by her. Without her the faction might have room to grow.
They pretty much can't kill Sylvanas off. The Horde consists of Sylvanas, has an ex-Warchief in Thrall of the Earthen Ring (not Horde), and... uh. A couple old orcs who used to be Thrall's teachers, and theoretically there is a goblin and an elf somewhere.
Baine pretty much exists as a name swap to an old model, and they never bothered to introduce a second troll character.
At this point the only one included in the narrative is Sylvanas. Baine briefly did something (conspired with Jaina Proudmoore, which looks hilarious now) way back in Cata (retook Thunder Bluff from the Grimtotems). Since then he's been in Thunder Bluff, waiting for an art update.
The other Windrunners are better known than the mook that theoretically leads the Blood Elves, and one has been gone since WC2 (until just recently), and the other was fairly non-present beyond theoretically existing (came up in the book narratives, but largely didn't have a model present in the world).
Poor Gallywix even lost his unique model in one of the post Cata updates.
Draenor and Legion didn't do the Horde any favors. Blizz basically failed to introduce new Horde characters into the narrative, even as they removed others. And even the existing ones didn't do much of anything.
And while I prefer the Alliance, the lion's share of new or returning characters have gone to them, and Turalyon and the third Windrunner aren't going to help that any. Mostly, though, I blame Khadgar. He's been the center point of way too much, when it should have been saner members of both factions leading in Draenor and Legion, rather than largely being shut out of the narrative.
The current stage of Legion in Argus shows things off pretty well, the NPC cast is:
Illidan (ex night elf, though not Alliance by any means... sadly)
Velen (alliance)
Vereesa and Alleria Windrunner (alliance general and ex alliance, respectively, but her 'allied race' is going Alliance)
Turalyon, human paladin, sorta ex-alliance, likely to be full alliance if he survives
Arator the Redeemer, half-elf, alliance paladin.
various draenei (all alliance, and new Lightforged Draenei, all of whom will be alliance)
and... that random Sunreaver that Jaina hates, who would technically be Horde, but... doesn't actually say much of anything.
There could be a member of the Horde NPC ranks there and at least contributing a few quests, but they got left out. The building climax to the Legion story is basically Alliance-only as far as NPCs are concerned.
Seems kind of like the opposite of TBC, when I remember wondering why the Horde was the faction getting most of the fluff attention in Outlands. Of course, some of that effectively started the Garosh arc, so I don't know that the Horde necessarily enjoyed the long-term effects of that...
I read they were going to update the leveling-up process and give you more zone options and stuff. Anyone know if they are changing any of the previous expansion content? I kinda liked how you could go to any legion zone you wanted at any time to level up and the monsters would always scale to your level (most of them anyway).
In Legion I thought I'd try leveling up an alt from scratch, since I didn't do the old world stuff when Cataclysm happened.. (I stopped after the lich king and came back in Legion) The new old world stuff was fun, but as soon as I got 2 zones into TBC stuff I just gave up out of sheer boredom, doing the same exact quests from 10+ years ago, and then the same exact old graphics / textures compared to new zones with new flashier graphics also sucked too. I always liked leveling up more than the end game loot race, but I don't wanna play the same leveling up game every single time.
Necros wrote: I read they were going to update the leveling-up process and give you more zone options and stuff. Anyone know if they are changing any of the previous expansion content? I kinda liked how you could go to any legion zone you wanted at any time to level up and the monsters would always scale to your level (most of them anyway).
No content changes (sadly, though understandable).
They're doing a version of content scaling, though part of the numbers adjustment means that leveling shouldn't be largely 1 and 2 shotting level appropriate mobs as it is now.
Old World (well, the Cata versions), the scaling will break down like this. Starter zones will be 1-10 like now. A lot of other stuff will vary. Ashenvale is 15-60, Stonetalon 20-60, Winterspring is 40-60, Silithus is 40-60. Basically they're keeping a minimum (though in some cases thats dropping), but letting you run to 60 in Old World.
Both Outland and Northrend are 60-80, so you can skip one or the other if you don't like 'em. Not sure how the actual cata zones, pandaland or draenor work out with this. But the intent seems to be allow players more flexibility when leveling. Which is pretty important with the allied races, who will start at 20 (and get an armor set if they level the hard way)
Honestly, as an Alliance player I'm pretty much not pumped for yet another fight for survival and existence when we won the last one in Mists of Pandaria and weren't allowed to make any hay out of it because it would've disrupted the status quo and ended the game. Nothing the Alliance does is going to matter, because it's not like there's going to be any consequences for the Horde anyway.
Oh, and I second the disappointment that the Nightborne are going Horde-exclusive. I've spent an expansion doing everything from jumping in vats of grapes to make wine for them to saving their entire race from eternal damnation and the reward that effort by... joining my mortal enemies. Thanks Obama! I'm getting flashbacks to the Alliance Twilight Highlands questline where Blizz just copied the Horde questline and forgot that it makes absolutely 0 sense to have the Red Dragonflight hate the Alliance. They've spent an expansion building up the lore and background of the Nightborne and about five quests in one patch building up the background of the Void Elves. I really wish Blizzard would stop making the Alliance immersion feel like it's being phoned in after the Horde's had a bunch of development.
At least Anduin was pretty cool in the cinematic, so there's that.
Huh. The only part of that I really agree with is the void elves. Blood elves Mark 3 aren't really exciting, nor are even more draenish Draenei.
But honestly the night borne can go fetch themselves. Tall purple blood elves aren't particularly interesting, especially since they come off as rather innately treacherous and self serving. And a lot of it was Tyrande's fault anyway- she treated them like crap and rather begrudgingly helped, while horde paladin girl was generally supportive.
But in terms of development I really have to disagree, the Alliance has gotten a lot, with a great many characters. An entire zone focused on Tyrande and Malfurion, despite having piss poor dialogue for the romantic duo, Velen and the Draenei have been a constant centerpiece, Anduin and Genn are going places, even Moira comes up from time to time. The Horde has Sylvanas, with Baine and Liadrin theoretically existing (though the latter more as a paladin than a member of the Horde)
Honestly, had the Horde not participated in Draenor and Legion, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
Honestly, had the Horde not participated in Draenor and Legion, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
Did the Alliance really do more than the Horde in Draenor? Everything there revolved around Kadghar, and he was in "both sides" mode.
I can't really comment on Legion, since I quit playing before the first major update hit. The focus on Illidan - who up until that point had essentially been a drug addict - as some kind of awesome savior of the universe induced major eye-rolling in me.
As for this latest expansion, I suspect that they've got someone or something waiting in the wings as the new threat. Yes, ostensibly its about the two sides fighting. But it'll probably turn out like Draenor, where we completed the initial objective (i.e. killed Garosh), and then Gul'Dan took over as the big bad. The question is what exactly is in the wings. Because while that might interest me, the current focus on the Alliance-Horde war does not.
Voss wrote: Huh. The only part of that I really agree with is the void elves. Blood elves Mark 3 aren't really exciting, nor are even more draenish Draenei.
But honestly the night borne can go fetch themselves. Tall purple blood elves aren't particularly interesting, especially since they come off as rather innately treacherous and self serving. And a lot of it was Tyrande's fault anyway- she treated them like crap and rather begrudgingly helped, while horde paladin girl was generally supportive.
But in terms of development I really have to disagree, the Alliance has gotten a lot, with a great many characters. An entire zone focused on Tyrande and Malfurion, despite having piss poor dialogue for the romantic duo, Velen and the Draenei have been a constant centerpiece, Anduin and Genn are going places, even Moira comes up from time to time. The Horde has Sylvanas, with Baine and Liadrin theoretically existing (though the latter more as a paladin than a member of the Horde)
Honestly, had the Horde not participated in Draenor and Legion, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
I really wish they would do more with Liadrin, like make her the leader of the Belfs instead of [Insert Anonymous Horde Racial Leader Here]. She has actually had some play in the story of the Horde, even if it was very small. That still vastly outweighs the contribution of other Belfs or members of the Horde altogether, really. Also, this may sound nitpicky but it does serve a purpose, she is a Blood Knight. She is pretty committed to the Horde, but she is willing to work with the Order of the Silver Hand in cases of extinction events.
I really wish the Horde would get some lore lovin some time soon. They were pushing Thrall super hard in the beginning of the game then a few expansions in and he quits and goes off to on his own to show up with a bunch of balls hanging around his neck? Cmon man, you made the Horde. LEAD THE HORDE! No backing out!
Honestly, had the Horde not participated in Draenor and Legion, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
Did the Alliance really do more than the Horde in Draenor? Everything there revolved around Kadghar, and he was in "both sides" mode.
I can't really comment on Legion, since I quit playing before the first major update hit. The focus on Illidan - who up until that point had essentially been a drug addict - as some kind of awesome savior of the universe induced major eye-rolling in me.
As for this latest expansion, I suspect that they've got someone or something waiting in the wings as the new threat. Yes, ostensibly its about the two sides fighting. But it'll probably turn out like Draenor, where we completed the initial objective (i.e. killed Garosh), and then Gul'Dan took over as the big bad. The question is what exactly is in the wings. Because while that might interest me, the current focus on the Alliance-Horde war does not.
Wel, queen Aszhara is apparently going to be in the second raid, and the last of the Old Gods imprisoned in Azeroth is down in the depths there somewhere, so...
I think you're giving Illidan too much and too little credit. Yes, the sudden chosen one story retcon was amazingly stupid (and even trying to weasel out of it the way they did with argus update, it was still stupid). But Illidan was, originally, a monster with a purpose. it wasn't well explained in game, and he flipped more sides than a ping pong ball, but they pretty much sank that ship back in BC when he was originally killed. I don't know why they expected a warm fan reaction to bringing him back, but they don't really deal with it well. He and Maiev bicker a bit, but they don't really address the hanging plot threads with his brother or ex love interest. It's all very static and uninteresting, because nothing of any weight happens in game, for fear it might bore players.
As for Draenor, yeah, I'd say so. Draenor became Yrel's story ( a random Draenei slave that ends up taking Velens place and goes from level 1 commoner to level 100 paladin+ in Shadow Moon Valley. Then she and Khadgar pretty much proceed to kick ass all the way to Nagrand, leading the final assault on the Warsong, at which point the narrative just skips to the Thrall vs Garrosh challenge match (where, despite all the established rules for such fights, Thrall blatantly cheats). And then something something alternate GulDan, but it sticks with Yrel and Khadgar all the way to 'crap he escaped into the real timeline'
Meanwhile thrall and the horde basically creepily stalks thrall's AU parents, pretends to be outraged by alt Doomhammer not turning coat, until he turns coat, and sort of helps the Alt frost wolves not die against evil orcs that didn't drink demon blood. And then everyone drinks demon blood anyway, because there wasn't enough green
I think the big problem blizz has is the fetish for making the players the commander... And then never letting them command (instead someone is always there to give you orders). The players are auxiliaries, and this 'focus on you but not really' part of the narrative just undermines the whole thing, because someone with depth has to be the actual narrative focus and make all the real decisions.
I only ran the Alliance side of Draenor. Yrel had a big presence there, but that was to be expected since - after all - that was the Alliance side. When paths crossed with the Horde side (such as in the big fight on the ships), there were indications that Horde things were going on as well.
At the very least, Yrel never seemed to do anything besides hang out in the Alliance base out in Hellfire (or where Hellfire is located in the Outlands) after Garosh's death aside from her appearance during the final raid, which also has a Horde NPC (Thrall's father, I think) put in an appearance.
Edit - To add, based on what I saw as an Alliance player, the Horde *should* have had someone equivalent to Yrel. If they didn't, then I would lay the fault squarely on the shoulders of whomever wrote the Horde half of the storyline. Even with Yrel as she existed on the Alliance side, there's no reason why the Horde couldn't have had a similarly strong character.
At the very least, Yrel never seemed to do anything besides hang out in the Alliance base out in Hellfire
Well, sure. That's a function of the way the game is structured. Cinematics are expensive and story bits have to be balanced around pacing and a balance of player interest (and frankly Blizz lowballs this)
Edit - To add, based on what I saw as an Alliance player, the Horde *should* have had someone equivalent to Yrel. If they didn't, then I would lay the fault squarely on the shoulders of whomever wrote the Horde half of the storyline. Even with Yrel as she existed on the Alliance side, there's no reason why the Horde couldn't have had a similarly strong character.
I played both, and Yrel just seemed to matter more. Partly because the 'Horde story' is basically Thrall connecting with his dead parents, and them never quite getting it (at least, not before the Hellfire Raid- I didn't play that horde side), because he basically doesn't act like an orc, even now. But while Shadowmoon is Yrel's 'rise,' Frostfire is a mess of Ogres, uncles being stupid, uncles not being dead, and every uncle being dead, and then Khadgar and Cortana show up to forcibly drive things back to the plot.
Then Talador is about not!Ogrim being a jerk, then sacrificing himself for... reasons. Now this could have come back around and made meaningful for Thrall (as Ogrim was Thrall's mentor), but instead it rather reinforces the idea that orcs were treacherous murders even before the demon blood thing. (And that the Alt Frost Wolves are only sympathetic because they're victims of Garrosh being petty in an alternate universe, otherwise they'd be in on the whole Iron Horde thing).
Nagrand basically has Thrall by himself watching the player wake up peons as if it were the orc starting zone.
It could be interesting play on what the Horde is doing, their roots and purpose, but it's basically Thrall's mom, telling him what a funny green orc he is, and asking why he didn't bring his wife and toddler to war with him.
It sounds like they tried to redo the Horde experience in TBC (which, from what I understand, was largely about Thrall "coming home"... and finding the son of Gromm Hellscream)... and badly botched it.
Eeesh...
Oh, well. Hopefully with the new "war" expansion they'll be forced to push some Horde leaders into the limelight, if only to avoid overusing Sylvanas.
Eumerin wrote: It sounds like they tried to redo the Horde experience in TBC (which, from what I understand, was largely about Thrall "coming home"... and finding the son of Gromm Hellscream)... and badly botched it.
Eeesh...
Oh, well. Hopefully with the new "war" expansion they'll be forced to push some Horde leaders into the limelight, if only to avoid overusing Sylvanas.
I think that was part of the intent, but I honestly think Draenor was largely a movie tie in, either to remind folks who all these orcs were, or to introduce them in the first place, for people who hadn't played the first game.
Giving the Hordes focus for this expansion, they definitely need to introduce a strong Darkspear character, if nothing else to explain what is going on. But I think the horde section will be the weak point again, to be honest. Partly because that character will have to come from scratch (or the hints and teases will actually be true and the ghost of vol'jin will drive the plot, which... Sigh. Should've done something with him while he was alive).
Helping and recruiting the Zandalari requires a huge adjustment or even a retcon. They're xenophobic racists that believe they're better than other trolls and other species are barely sapient, and they have a mandate to rule the world as the first race and the ruling caste of all trolls. Tagging along as a minor power in the Horde seems a hard sell.
Ugh, im not looking forward to leveling 6 more alts through Draenor. At least i can skip Outland.
At least i can alternate between Vashjir and Hyjal for Cataclysm, and Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord for Northrend. I guess i would be alternating between Shadowmoon and Frostfire, but Frostfire sucked and Shadowmoon wasnt much better.
Im leveling an undead (again, ive done through Hillsbrad before) to see if i can understand the Sylvanas fetish. So far ive helped a guy get a pet murloc and seen Lilian Voss do all the work.
There is a character that just confuses me. Why is she there? Why does she show up again in a couple random dungeons? What the heck are those powers? And she randomly shows up in both draenor (in the inn as a quest giver ) and legion (rogue campaign), but other than hating undead, there is no reason for her.
As far as I know there is effectively zero explanation for her anywhere. She just exists as somebody's pet project.
Apparently she was a Scarlet Crusade secret weapon that they somehow managed to let die and was raised by the Valkyr since Sylvanas was desperately raising any human she could get her mitts on to stop Crowley and the Semi feral worgen counter attack.
So yeah, pretty much some developers either sort of self insert or pet project.
Crazyterran wrote: Ugh, im not looking forward to leveling 6 more alts through Draenor. At least i can skip Outland.
At least i can alternate between Vashjir and Hyjal for Cataclysm, and Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord for Northrend. I guess i would be alternating between Shadowmoon and Frostfire, but Frostfire sucked and Shadowmoon wasnt much better.
Im leveling an undead (again, ive done through Hillsbrad before) to see if i can understand the Sylvanas fetish. So far ive helped a guy get a pet murloc and seen Lilian Voss do all the work.
Lilian Voss isnt even a member of the Horde.
Lillian Voss is the daughter of Arch Bishop(I believe) of the Scarlet Crusade. She was trained all her life as a weapon against the Undead. Her story in Tirisfal Glades is about betrayal by her father and her revenge against him throughout the zone.
I think she had some sort of strange holy powers in life but when she was raised as Forsaken, they swapped to shadow. She starts a whole One Man Army thing against the Scarlet Crusade and "evil undead" apparently. That is why she shows up in Scholomance later, to kill Gandling.
Crazyterran wrote: Ugh, im not looking forward to leveling 6 more alts through Draenor. At least i can skip Outland.
At least i can alternate between Vashjir and Hyjal for Cataclysm, and Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord for Northrend. I guess i would be alternating between Shadowmoon and Frostfire, but Frostfire sucked and Shadowmoon wasnt much better.
Im leveling an undead (again, ive done through Hillsbrad before) to see if i can understand the Sylvanas fetish. So far ive helped a guy get a pet murloc and seen Lilian Voss do all the work.
Lilian Voss isnt even a member of the Horde.
Lillian Voss is the daughter of Arch Bishop(I believe) of the Scarlet Crusade. She was trained all her life as a weapon against the Undead. Her story in Tirisfal Glades is about betrayal by her father and her revenge against him throughout the zone.
I think she had some sort of strange holy powers in life but when she was raised as Forsaken, they swapped to shadow. She starts a whole One Man Army thing against the Scarlet Crusade and "evil undead" apparently. That is why she shows up in Scholomance later, to kill Gandling.
She appears in the tirisfal quests, in both new scarlet dungeons, in scholomance, has a minor appearance in WoD as well as her Legion appearances.
She appears in the tirisfal quests, in both new scarlet dungeons, in scholomance, has a minor appearance in WoD as well as her Legion appearances.
She definitely has background.
She has a dad and feels betrayed and goes on a murder spree, sure. But it doesn't really explain anything- how she ended up in the communal grave in death knell, what's up with her wacky powers, why her family is a power in the Crusade, anything.
The questline throughout Tirisfal is fine, sorta. It's self contained and gives the player some insight into the Scarlet Crusade and their strong anti-undead stance. Having the focus of the Scarlet Crusade being this ex-crusader with magic fire rather than the Forsaken rather dilutes the story, however.
That she later turns up in the Scarlet Monastery to continue her murder spree after brutally murdering some ex-friends and family members is... well, ok, I guess? I'm a bit puzzled why this was considered a useful or interesting modification to this dungeon, since killing Whitemane was a thing long before Lillian was.
Popping off to Scholomance to kill some unrelated necromancers is.. fairly puzzling, and isn't particularly sketched out for the players. She's just there, apparently for the lulz. But she isn't in the eastern plaguelands where most of the undead are nor Stratholme, which is choked with the bloody things. Her story just dies off.
But then she shows up again in Draenor, where she apparently time travelled to an alternate universe to get the horde and alliance members to kill some random eredar or orcs in a draenei holy site, which is just downright baffling.
That she wanders back and becomes a horde-specific companion (alliance get Tess Greymane) for rogues of all things is... just wacky. (particularly if your rogue is forsaken)
She appears in the tirisfal quests, in both new scarlet dungeons, in scholomance, has a minor appearance in WoD as well as her Legion appearances.
She definitely has background.
She has a dad and feels betrayed and goes on a murder spree, sure. But it doesn't really explain anything- how she ended up in the communal grave in death knell, what's up with her wacky powers, why her family is a power in the Crusade, anything.
The questline throughout Tirisfal is fine, sorta. It's self contained and gives the player some insight into the Scarlet Crusade and their strong anti-undead stance. Having the focus of the Scarlet Crusade being this ex-crusader with magic fire rather than the Forsaken rather dilutes the story, however.
That she later turns up in the Scarlet Monastery to continue her murder spree after brutally murdering some ex-friends and family members is... well, ok, I guess? I'm a bit puzzled why this was considered a useful or interesting modification to this dungeon, since killing Whitemane was a thing long before Lillian was.
Popping off to Scholomance to kill some unrelated necromancers is.. fairly puzzling, and isn't particularly sketched out for the players. She's just there, apparently for the lulz. But she isn't in the eastern plaguelands where most of the undead are nor Stratholme, which is choked with the bloody things. Her story just dies off.
But then she shows up again in Draenor, where she apparently time travelled to an alternate universe to get the horde and alliance members to kill some random eredar or orcs in a draenei holy site, which is just downright baffling.
That she wanders back and becomes a horde-specific companion (alliance get Tess Greymane) for rogues of all things is... just wacky. (particularly if your rogue is forsaken)
Eh, I don't think the whole Scholomance and Draenor thing is a huge stretch for her. She clearly hates the Undead but she is tolerant of the Forsaken, because they are at least intelligent like she is. Killing Gandling makes sense, putting down any undead threat she hears about makes sense as well. Now the real question is why has she not made it to Northrend to join up with the Ebon Blade.
Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
Spoiler:
Illidan and the souls of the Titan pantheon sacrifice themselves to imprison Sargeras within Antorus for all eternity.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
Spoiler:
Illidan and the souls of the Titan pantheon sacrifice themselves to imprison Sargeras within Antorus for all eternity.
That is just stupid.
Spoiler:
Why would an entire pantheon of Titans sacrifice themselves to stop ONE titan?! In comparison, why would Illidan even matter in this?
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
Spoiler:
Illidan and the souls of the Titan pantheon sacrifice themselves to imprison Sargeras within Antorus for all eternity.
That is just stupid.
Spoiler:
Why would an entire pantheon of Titans sacrifice themselves to stop ONE titan?! In comparison, why would Illidan even matter in this?
Spoiler:
Because the pantheon is dead. Only their souls are left, Sargeras killed their bodies long ago.
Sargeras tries to twist these souls to serve him (succeeding with one, Aggramar, who is the penultimate boss of the expansion).
However, even disembodied and without avatars (unlike Aggramar) the titans still hold power. With the help of someone physical and not dead (illidan) they can seal Sargeras in.
I recommend peeking at wowpedia to keep up to date with the lore since some of this stuff is actually not that new.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
A 'new playable faction' is way too optimistic for WoW. That isn't cynical at all.
For one thing, the amount of art and animation work so that they could equip gear, ride mounts and everything else players do would be huge and expensive.
For another Blizz is far too locked in to this silly red vs blue narrative. Adding green would just confuse things.
Plus, a legion faction would eat at the conceptual space occupied by warlocks and demon hunters. Reaching Into the dark for power and control is pretty pointless when Aggrammizziar is just a dude you can play.
Frankenberry wrote: Hey, just think about it guys - with the new raid letting you fight yet another Old God (because hey, they're easy to kill) we might end up fighting Sargeras in this expac.
Because, y'know, if you're going to Old Yeller WoW's lore you might as well go all the way and make Sargeras just some raid boss.
If you have read the spoilers on mmochampion etc. you know what happens to sargeras in the raid.
Didn't know there were spoilers!
Also, I figured they'd 'kill' him somehow, or redeem him, or make the Burning Legion a playable faction. As you might have guessed, I'm a bit cynical when it comes to WoW - not a fan of much post Wrath of the Lich King.
A 'new playable faction' is way too optimistic for WoW. That isn't cynical at all.
For one thing, the amount of art and animation work so that they could equip gear, ride mounts and everything else players do would be huge and expensive.
For another Blizz is far too locked in to this silly red vs blue narrative. Adding green would just confuse things.
Plus, a legion faction would eat at the conceptual space occupied by warlocks and demon hunters. Reaching Into the dark for power and control is pretty pointless when Aggrammizziar is just a dude you can play.
I realize now it wasn't obvious, but for most of that post I was being extremely sarcastic.
Hrmm. It seems a little odd that they're going to have horde and alliance going at each other, especially given everything they've gone through. Horde and alliance seem to have a relationship like zim and dib in invader zim.
I mean, hell's bells, they're been more-or-less allies v. an external threat for, just about every expansion, from what I can recall.
I suppose a conflict between them is a pretty obvious setting for an expansion, come to think of it, but it seems a bit odd on the heels of them working together, again, to throw back the legion.
And it seems especially odd that anduin is leading the charge against the horde. I thought he had gained some rapport with horde, from what I recall of legion. Plus, again, his dad died (maybe) helping to push back the legion, with which the horde also helped.
Anyways, mork knows I'll probably pop in for a bit. It's a tradition at this point.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Hrmm. It seems a little odd that they're going to have horde and alliance going at each other, especially given everything they've gone through. Horde and alliance seem to have a relationship like zim and dib in invader zim.
I mean, hell's bells, they're been more-or-less allies v. an external threat for, just about every expansion, from what I can recall.
Well, not Cataclysm, where Garrosh launched a war on multiple fronts, in multiple zones (though largely questing zones). But it was an understandable war for land, resources and whatnot. They tried to retcon it back with something something, Twilight Whatevers launching an ambush, but it fit in exactly with what Garrosh wanted to do anyway.
The fight against Deathwing was pretty much a sideshow for the expansion.
Pandaria continued that conflict, despite the brief interlude with the Zandalari and the Mogu emperor. The main conflict was wrapping up Garrosh's Cata war.
I suppose a conflict between them is a pretty obvious setting for an expansion, come to think of it, but it seems a bit odd on the heels of them working together, again, to throw back the legion.
It's only obvious because of the dev team. For whatever reason, they insist that for PvP to be happening at all, there needs to be some sort of story conflict to justify it, even though a lot of PvPers don't care, and most of the old battlegrounds are laughable in both execution and form, and hjave long ago lost their justifications.
Which is why in legion, the personal feud Genn and Sylvanas defines the PvP conflicts, so players are fighting over stupid towers that have zero impact on the war with the legion, who never attack them, and the towers defend nothing. If a legion attack came, they'd wander over to Suramar (their allies), and walk up the roads to the major settlements, and come nowhere near the coastal towers. Or just drop from their spaceships, rather than mount a naval invasion.
And it seems especially odd that anduin is leading the charge against the horde. I thought he had gained some rapport with horde, from what I recall of legion.
Nah. Anduin's rapport with the horde mostly comes from Pandaria. He does nothing in Legion- there is a brief interlude where you can escort him to the Broken Shore and he picks up his dad's sword, after which he goes back home.
Likely, as in Legion, Genn is pushing his own agenda, and Anduin is obviously going along with it. Genn fairly blatantly intends to attack the Horde in Stormheim, and his orders (theoretically from Anduin) only vaguely assert that he shouldn't attack them unless attacked.
Plus, again, his dad died (maybe) helping to push back the legion, with which the horde also helped.
Eh. Varian definitely is a crispy critter, but the Broken Shore assault failed in every respect- the factions are irrelevant to pushing the Horde back afterwards. What spawned from the Broken Shore assault, is the idea that Sylvanas 'betrayed' the alliance by retreating, even though:
a) the alliance couldn't see what the horde was facing
b) it was obvious in the first 10 minutes that they were outmatched by the Legion forces that were already there (and more warped in from the numerous spaceships)
and c) it was a stupid and poorly planned attack in the first place. (especially as they got there after the Silver Hand had already attacked and failed)
After the Broken shore, the Factions were irrelevant to Legion. But that retreat from Broken Shore is probably going to be utilized as part of the justification for the war with Legion. And why Anduin will likely follow Genn into the war. Unless Blizz just makes it simple: Sylvanas burns Teldrassil, so the Alliance responds to the new outbreak of war by attacking Undercity.
It does seem very strange that we build up these class orders and then expect them to blindly turn on each other in BFA. One could argue that these orders are neutral but as head of these orders our characters would be neutral also .... idk it seems off.
Irishpeacockz wrote: It does seem very strange that we build up these class orders and then expect them to blindly turn on each other in BFA. One could argue that these orders are neutral but as head of these orders our characters would be neutral also .... idk it seems off.
I have a hard time with the class orders as anything other than a gimmick. Especially the idea of the players' characters as the 'heads' of the orders. Partly for the millions of heads this would entail, but also because Blizzard presents 'command' in a very, very strange way:
You 'command' a Draenor Garrison or Legion Order by some NPC (of lesser rank) telling you exactly what to do. The only thing you do is assemble missions, which are simply mini-puzzles where the aim is to get more than a 100% chance of success; which itself isn't a concept any sort of military is familiar with.
Really, you're an semi-independent agent working for Khadgar (or in Argus, Velen and/or Illidan), and you've got a handful of lesser agents that you do paperwork for.
As for the Class Orders themselves... most of them don't feel particularly real. Out of the ones that do, the Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle are officially neutrals and always have been. The Silver Hand still feels like an Alliance outfit, who are graciously letting cows and blood elves stand around in their basement for the duration of the invasion. Out of the rest, I couldn't even tell you what the 'official' names are, except the Knights of the Ebon Blade, who seem on the verge of a war against the living and a hair from being enslaved by the Lich King again. They certainly aren't going to care about a faction war, except to use the fallen as new recruits.
It doesn't help that a lot of the nameless NPCs (including ones you need to click on to get more disposable recruits or resources) still sound off with their default faction sound clips: 'For the Alliance' and what have you.
I have only completed the Death Knight Campaign and am currently doing the Demon Hunter one at the moment. For these two orders I just don't see blind faction zeal enough to tear them apart and make them fight each other. This raises the question as to what motivates the player character in WoW to take orders from inferior npc's for 13 years, but I guess thats up to blizzard.
They're both a little weird. DH are currently doing exactly what they created for, both individually and as a group. After Legion their purpose is entirely fulfilled. (Presumably). Interesting aspect of that is Horde demon hunters barely are 'blood elves' as their training basically overlapped with the period that schism happened. Some of them might not even know that Kael'Thas is dead, demon corrupted and a traitor (and dead again) rather than their rightful sovereign.
For Death Knights, it's very strange. The whole arc of their starting zone is breaking away from the Lich King and going off to become full members of their faction despite doubters. The thrust of their legion campaign is moving back towards the new Lich King and uh... doing some...stuff...(spoilers) against both factions. To the point that the LK specifically threatens to reabsorb the ebon blade and launch a new war against the living if you screw things up.
It's a perennial problem blizzard seems to be over complicating. They really really love 'faction war' as a concept, but also love cooperation against big bads. It pretty much requires the idiot ball and retcons to be applied liberally.
It's also really at odds with the leveling zones of the new expansion. Each faction gets 3 zones that have to deal with internal problems of former or prospective members. The other faction basically doesn't matter at all for the meat of BfA.
Yeah, good ole Bolvar (or nerzul) just wants revenge on the legion but what about after that ? I was in two minds about hopping along to his orders but I would be very surprised if the Lich King is a big baddie again. Im hopeful for BFA though, the allied races has me hyped (Zandalari trolls) and Kul'tiras is a long requested zone to explore. Jaina's PTSD will hopefully come to light and we see how she is dealing with all that. To top it all off I hope the old gods are pulling the strings behind this war instead of Sylvanus just pulling a garrosh .... again
I'm kind of tired of the Old Gods, myself. They've always felt kind of shoehorned into a setting that they didn't really belong to. But right now the only big bads are them and Azshara.
So it's probably Old Gods this time.
The monk hall was neutral. But the storyline basically boiled down to
Spoiler:
the Legion keeps attacking, and the PC is the only one capable of stopping them.
Irishpeacockz wrote: Yeah, good ole Bolvar (or nerzul) just wants revenge on the legion but what about after that ? I was in two minds about hopping along to his orders but I would be very surprised if the Lich King is a big baddie again.
Me too, but to be honest, I didn't see the point of making a new one, at least not for very long. He could (and should) be able to slowly destroy the Scourge, if not through self-destructive acts or battles amongst different groups of undead, then through attrition battles against other threats, like the faceless ones down below Icecrown.
But the way the Death Knight campaign plays out, it doesn't seem like it took long for Bolvar to start down the road of corruption.
The rogue order hall in Legion is another weird one. Ostensibly neutral, but most of the 'Horde' characters that show up actually are neutral (Garona, Steamwheedle goblins, that BE rogue from Hearthstone (& manga), Lillian Voss), while the alliance characters include Princess Greymane and the head of SI:7. It's supposedly a matter of looking after underworld business interests in the face of the legion, but it focuses on SI:7 and the alliance. And, amusingly enough, averting a faction war.
It will, of course, not all make sense for those not aware of the context.
To be fair... some of that is a little shaky even with the proper context.
It's good to have resolution on a lot of that, but I don't want to see those characters wander out of Space Jail in an expansion or two. Or have it revealed they were never in Space Jail, or one of them consumed the others and is now the Big Bad or any variation of that.
My question is... what now? I'll grant the new raid is a big thing for those that raid, and they'll be opening wings and LFR over the course of the month, but... well.
BFA probably won't hit til summer, how will they keep people engaged for 7-8 months?
I really have no words for that cinematic, man. I...what? What has happened to the franchise I loved so dearly in my youth? This gak is some sort of...Like I said, no words.
Frankenberry wrote: I really have no words for that cinematic, man. I...what? What has happened to the franchise I loved so dearly in my youth? This gak is some sort of...Like I said, no words.
You will have to be more precise than that I'm afraid.
As for what happens now, it's no different from the pre-expansion lulls we've always had. Let's just hope this one is not as long as all the others have been.
Frankenberry wrote: I really have no words for that cinematic, man. I...what? What has happened to the franchise I loved so dearly in my youth? This gak is some sort of...Like I said, no words.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I find some of it weird (like the Sargeras cloud with no explanation, and Illidan just... choosing to hang out and maybe beat on an imprisoned Sargeras some and basically take the role of Maiev), but the game has been building to this for a long, long time.
Not necessarily the precise details, but the Titans as the World Builders have been there since the Uldaman dungeon all the way back in 2004, with Wrath fleshing them out.
Sargeras and the Burning Legion have been around since Warcraft.. 2? (WC1 is a bit more nebulous in what is motivating people) And they had to finally wrap him up in some fashion without the players somehow punching him in the face. But after all this time, it was past the point to tie up that story arc.
The canon that Sargeras had previously cut an Old God-infected planet in half has been there for ages, so stabbing one a bit isn't actually unprecedented or weird.
@Ashiraya- I'm not sure, so I did some digging.
Some of what is on the PTR (or planned for Soon on the PTR) indicates that some things make come earlier than expected, possibly part of the 7.3.5 patch (and thus part of Legion rather than waiting for BFA or even the pre-release event).
So the game might well transition to Silithus post-Argus, and some clean up around or involving that bloody great sword.
Some of the data-mining and PTR information is pointing at the possibility of some of the allied races happening sooner rather than later. Not 100% reliable of course, but there are already indications of the join quest for the Nightborne, and the new leveling adjustments are definitely part of the PTR.
What I want to know is how we defeated Aggramar. I'm perfectly fine with us punching Argus down, since the entire Pantheon was backing us, but how the everliving feth did we punch out Aggramar without help from ANYTHING? He should've just stepped on us, we should be no more a threat to him on our own than a really big thermite is to a human, and yet we somehow took him down.
Plus, if the Pantheon was strong enough to just tell Sargeras to feth off, how did he kill all of them in the first place?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What I want to know is how we defeated Aggramar. I'm perfectly fine with us punching Argus down, since the entire Pantheon was backing us, but how the everliving feth did we punch out Aggramar without help from ANYTHING? He should've just stepped on us, we should be no more a threat to him on our own than a really big thermite is to a human, and yet we somehow took him down.
Plus, if the Pantheon was strong enough to just tell Sargeras to feth off, how did he kill all of them in the first place?
And that was just Aggramar's soul soul being twisted by Sargeras, their bodies were killed long ago and what was left was just a bit of their remaining souls/essence.
Because Sargeras was already one of their strongest champions to begin with, but when he became Fel empowered he essentially became strong enough to really deal with them. Aggramar also made the mistake of trying to talk him down first as well and Sargeras cleaved him in two mid-conversation. He did have the makings of his army as we
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What I want to know is how we defeated Aggramar. I'm perfectly fine with us punching Argus down, since the entire Pantheon was backing us, but how the everliving feth did we punch out Aggramar without help from ANYTHING? He should've just stepped on us, we should be no more a threat to him on our own than a really big thermite is to a human, and yet we somehow took him down.
Plus, if the Pantheon was strong enough to just tell Sargeras to feth off, how did he kill all of them in the first place?
Well for the former, he was killed and remade, presumably in a weaker form that couldn't threaten Sargeras. Or it's an avatar form, like the one Sargeras sent to battle Aegwynn. A bit cliche ridden, but those seems the most likely explanations (and coherent with what happened before, with Aegwynn vs Sargeras)
For the second, Because the power of sacrifice and their place of power. When he killed them originally, they were expecting a rational debate from a sibling propose a crazy idea, but he came empowered and expecting a murder day. This time they're collectively throwing their remaining essence at him, through their place of power and...stuff.
Again pretty cliche ridden, but at least they subverted the Starcraft 2 ending, which is what was expected (a new God is born from the chosen one and she/he slays the corrupted one, and has the power to reign over all, which is where they were going with the Xe'ra plot for Illidan, same as they did for the queen of blades). Really, the meta plots for Blizzard games are depressingly similar.
This is out in a month iirc.
I havent played WoW since Mists or there abouts.
Anyone going to get it? As a oldschool player have they overhauled most of the game at this point? I see there are even 8 new races to roll. Are the mechanics outside of tank, healer, dps totally new?
Ratius wrote: This is out in a month iirc.
I havent played WoW since Mists or there abouts.
Anyone going to get it? As a oldschool player have they overhauled most of the game at this point? I see there are even 8 new races to roll. Are the mechanics outside of tank, healer, dps totally new?
Im tempted to jump back in (again )
I already ' bought' it. (Via tokens, so it didn't actually cost money), as I was curious about the 'new' races. Which... The four that were pre-released are about as interesting as dishwater, as they're very lazy reskins of existing races, especially the opposite faction elves. The Kul Tiran humans interest me a lot more, and the dark irons and maghar orcs aren't bad (but the origin for the latter is incredibly stupid).
I also got into the beta, but didn't do much with it. Toyed around with the starting areas and some more of the horde side, but didn't want to spoil the leveling content, since that's what I care about and there is less of it, unfortunately (just three zones per faction).
Mechanically, it Is largely the same. Specific abilities are different, and they culled a lot of garbage abilities, but its still tank, Healer and DPS. If you were fanatical about survival hunters or demonology warlocks, you might be very angry, as they changed a fair bit. Survival is melee now and a lot of warlocks are deeply offended by the loss of metamorphosis and the temporary demons the spec now summons. Personally I liked the changes to both (at least once they fixed the numbers on demonology.
They start the pre release patches tomorrow, including the numbers squish, so expect lots and lots of rage in the near future. Despite the fact that numbers in WoW don't actually matter, just ability rotation and time to kill. Though it feels weird, since lower level mobs are a lot more bullet spongey thanks to the squish. If you ran old raids for item appearances and easy money, expect them to take a lot longer, even though they aren't much more dangerous.
With mists as your last expansion, BFA might feel familiar. Pointless aggression and faction war that doesn't actually affect the leveling experience.
Oh, and PvP is off by default, even on PvP realms. Never cared, so don't know or understand, but it seems really bizarre.
I also got into the beta, but didn't do much with it. Toyed around with the starting areas and some more of the horde side, but didn't want to spoil the leveling content, since that's what I care about and there is less of it, unfortunately (just three zones per faction).
You get access to the opposing side's areas as well, though your leveling experience is mostly spent on your own island.
With mists as your last expansion, BFA might feel familiar. Pointless aggression and faction war that doesn't actually affect the leveling experience.
The War Campaign of BFA is the equivalent of Legion's order hall campaign, which started pretty much from the get go (102?). In other words, it will be seen in the leveling experience.
Oh, and PvP is off by default, even on PvP realms. Never cared, so don't know or understand, but it seems really bizarre.
There are now only two realm types - normal and RP. Activating PvP can only be done in cities and puts you in a different shard from the non-PvP players.
As for whether you'll like it, I can't say. I'm a roleplayer first and foremost. If I played WoW solely for the gameplay I would've quit soon after I started.
I thought the other faction's island only came up for WQs at max level . I don't really think of WQs as real content, just resource grinds. Particularly given how legion did them. Need order resources for cash table missions.
Legions order halls did start fairly early, but quickly hit a cap. Order quests pretty much stopped at level 105, then picked back up at 110. It was vaguely tied in with the weird time gating in Legion.
As far ass PvP, that's what I mean- its not something I do (seems like pointless whack-a-mole) so I don't get the reasoning for the new approach
Voss wrote: I don't really think of WQs as real content, just resource grinds.
And that is up to you, but WQs were clearly popular since they are sticking with it, and they do count as content in the eyes of others - specifically, as an alternative to the daily quest system.
Legions order halls did start fairly early, but quickly hit a cap. Order quests pretty much stopped at level 105, then picked back up at 110. It was vaguely tied in with the weird time gating in Legion.
The 'weird time gating' is there for reason, though? They have to time gate everything somehow, otherwise you will complete everything day 1 and complain that there is nothing to do. The 105-110 gap was mostly long-duration order hall missions filling that space at the start.
As far ass PvP, that's what I mean- its not something I do (seems like pointless whack-a-mole) so I don't get the reasoning for the new approach
And that's okay too, I don't do a lot of PvP, but I mean the new expansion is predominantly PvE anyway.
I get the impression that you don't really like WoW at all, which is fine, but then there are other options out there for you.
Voss wrote: I don't really think of WQs as real content, just resource grinds.
And that is up to you, but WQs were clearly popular since they are sticking with it, and they do count as content in the eyes of others - specifically, as an alternative to the daily quest system.
??? They are a daily quest system. It just has a fancier hat.
Legions order halls did start fairly early, but quickly hit a cap. Order quests pretty much stopped at level 105, then picked back up at 110. It was vaguely tied in with the weird time gating in Legion.
The 'weird time gating' is there for reason, though? They have to time gate everything somehow, otherwise you will complete everything day 1 and complain that there is nothing to do. The 105-110 gap was mostly long-duration order hall missions filling that space at the start.
Time gating for content drops (new zones, raids, etc) makes sense. Just interrupting a story narrative for 5 levels (and however much play time that is for people) is rude and annoying
As far ass PvP, that's what I mean- its not something I do (seems like pointless whack-a-mole) so I don't get the reasoning for the new approach
And that's okay too, I don't do a lot of PvP, but I mean the new expansion is predominantly PvE anyway.
They all have been, but this one is supposedly going back to the war between the two factions, so eliminating PvP realms and encouraging less PvP is an odd choice given the 'Must kill Red/Blue' story beats.
The faction war is important so do that less (or worse, game design will protect you from it) is a very odd choice by the devs.
I get the impression that you don't really like WoW at all, which is fine, but then there are other options out there for you.
OK...? Or I like talking about games in terms of design, good and bad, and like being shooed off with 'this isn't for you' rather less
??? They are a daily quest system. It just has a fancier hat.
It fulfills the same purpose, but it is structurally very different to have randomized quests all across the expansion continent (and BFA will also have world quests in the old world of Kalimdor and EK!) compared to a number of set quests in separate hubs.
Time gating for content drops (new zones, raids, etc) makes sense. Just interrupting a story narrative for 5 levels (and however much play time that is for people) is rude and annoying
Are storylines not content?IMO the Suramar storyline was some of WoW's best content for a good while (if not ever). It certainly blows anything WoW could muster pre-Mists out of the water. Whether the gating should be constant and short or big breaks can be debated, but 5 levels is not exactly what I would call oppressive.
They all have been, but this one is supposedly going back to the war between the two factions, so eliminating PvP realms and encouraging less PvP is an odd choice given the 'Must kill Red/Blue' story beats.
Actually, world PvP is a lot more favoured now. You can only switch to PvP in cities, yes (or if you engage guard NPCs in the game world as usual, etc.) but world PvP now offers major rewards instead of an irrelevantly small amount of honor points. Having PvP mode on alone gives a host of bonuses and access to an additional talent tree, and there's also world drops for additional chunks of conquest points, the assassin system, etc.
The island invasions (similar to the scenarios of MoP, though acting as the main source of BFA's artifact power equivalent Azerite) also offer a PvP variant.
OK...? Or I like talking about games in terms of design, good and bad, and like being shooed off with 'this isn't for you' rather less
I kinda get the impression this is less about you disliking WoW because it's bad and more you disliking WoW because you don't like this kind of game at all. Or, if you used to like it, that it has changed against your wishes (something of an inevitability, as games that stagnate do not stay this popular).
Frankenberry wrote: I really have no words for that cinematic, man. I...what? What has happened to the franchise I loved so dearly in my youth? This gak is some sort of...Like I said, no words.
You will have to be more precise than that I'm afraid.
As for what happens now, it's no different from the pre-expansion lulls we've always had. Let's just hope this one is not as long as all the others have been.
To finally answer this, months later, to clarify:
Warcraft has taken a turn, in my opinion, towards a stupid level of...I don't know the word; over-the-top nonsense? That was four words. When I started playing Warcraft as a kid I fell in love with both factions and the sub factions within each of those - the world, lore, and setting were and are still amazing. My issue with...whatever Legion is and Warlords before that and Pandaria even before that is that the magic that I believed the WC setting had became so...overblown with bombastic crap. It seemed gritty with a touch of dark humor every now and then, but now it seems so PG and silly.
For example, when I spent time in Darkshire as a wee low level back in the day, the atmosphere was genuinely creepy. The quests were all so [i}dark[/i] and generally horrible, and I loved every minute of it. Now? Who gives a gak about atmosphere or crafting a good leveling experience; shut up NPC, give me my quests so I can max my returns on XP this level so i can max out quicker so that I can raid and see what the REAL story is. Oh wait, it's a cinematic where I watch a space...ship fly around a titan that stabs Azeroth...that's a living entity now...and said stab doesn't end the world, nope. It's a quest hook for the next expac. And the greatest threat to face the cosmos is defeated with the power of friendship and can-do attitudes.
And hey, farming. Actually god damned farming in Pandaria. "Hey dawg, I heard to like to farm, so I put a farm you can farm so you can farm while farming."
- End Rant -
The one thing I'm looking forward to with the coming of BFA are the legacy servers. I'll sign back up in a heartbeat if I can play Vanilla again.
??? They are a daily quest system. It just has a fancier hat.
It fulfills the same purpose, but it is structurally very different to have randomized quests all across the expansion continent (and BFA will also have world quests in the old world of Kalimdor and EK!) compared to a number of set quests in separate hubs.
It isn't different. Lots of daily hubs had randomized* sets of quests. WQs function exactly like dailies except you don't have to go to an NPC, and the quest dialogue box just pops up and is voiced when you reach the quest area. Same with turn in. Strucuturally it is exactly the same, the quest giver is just invisible, and triggered by the quest area rather than being clicked on.
*Though like dailies, a lot of WQs are set or scheduled. Some are always there (like the PvP towers) others progress on a regular rotation (like the PvP 'arenas' in each zone). Others pop once every 24-48 hours on a set cycle.
Time gating for content drops (new zones, raids, etc) makes sense. Just interrupting a story narrative for 5 levels (and however much play time that is for people) is rude and annoying
Are storylines not content?IMO the Suramar storyline was some of WoW's best content for a good while (if not ever). It certainly blows anything WoW could muster pre-Mists out of the water. Whether the gating should be constant and short or big breaks can be debated, but 5 levels is not exactly what I would call oppressive.
Storylines are the only real content. Everything else is just repetitive grinding, which is why they shouldn't die unexpectable or get put on pause in the middle for level requirements.
'oppressive?' You sure like to jump to weird judgements. I just disliked the way the way the set up the order hall quests. You're introduced, getting involved and then it suddenly cuts out. No breadcrumbs, no dialogue, no warning. No indication if it's a bug or intended unless you go look it up on some external website. The narrative just sputters and dies for no apparent reason.
Suramar... Eh.
Actually that's about it. The fate of a handful of traitors to yet another random elf faction that's thematically the same as an existing random elf faction just wasn't interesting. It was nice to see a real looking city with an actual population, but it was a very silly place with yet another version of a very tired story.
They all have been, but this one is supposedly going back to the war between the two factions, so eliminating PvP realms and encouraging less PvP is an odd choice given the 'Must kill Red/Blue' story beats.
Actually, world PvP is a lot more favoured now. You can only switch to PvP in cities, yes (or if you engage guard NPCs in the game world as usual, etc.) but world PvP now offers major rewards instead of an irrelevantly small amount of honor points. Having PvP mode on alone gives a host of bonuses and access to an additional talent tree, and there's also world drops for additional chunks of conquest points, the assassin system, etc.
The island invasions (similar to the scenarios of MoP, though acting as the main source of BFA's artifact power equivalent Azerite) also offer a PvP variant.
Only switch in capitals, actually (which is a weird annoyance as there is less and less reason to jump through a portal to go to org or stormwind). I'm not convinced the little bribes to entice people to opt back into the pvp system are worthwhile.
OK...? Or I like talking about games in terms of design, good and bad, and like being shooed off with 'this isn't for you' rather less
I kinda get the impression this is less about you disliking WoW because it's bad and more you disliking WoW because you don't like this kind of game at all. Or, if you used to like it, that it has changed against your wishes (something of an inevitability, as games that stagnate do not stay this popular).
See, this is why you shouldn't jump to weird judgements. None of that is correct, or even vaguely relevant. Try sticking to the discussion rather some weird analysis of me personally.
I cracked and picked up Legion last night.
Currently trying to find out how to get to the questing zones and what half my gear stats now look like.....
Voss wrote: See, this is why you shouldn't jump to weird judgements. None of that is correct, or even vaguely relevant. Try sticking to the discussion rather some weird analysis of me personally.
I am reading your arguments and I definitely feel like this is the case. From weird definitions of what does and doesn't count as 'different' content (with daily quests, for example, the primary purpose was often reputation, whereas WQs have primarily been to fuel artifact power and order hall resources - most people got exalted with everything quickly - and this being in addition to all the other differences, like dailies being something you did daily and WQs being something you could wait up to 3 days between each round without losing much due to the emissary system).
And if you call Suramar's storyline boring somehow, how have you ever enjoyed any story in this game? You just walked up to Mass Effect and said 'this game has such a boring story, I am going back to pong'. Like WTF? I can't comprehend any standard or judgement that would lead you to such a conclusion.
And I mean... About the order hall campaign, the problem seems to be that you went into it with the expectation of doing it constantly 100-110. That was never advertised as the case, the leveling zones remain the primary means of leveling. The missions served as a campaign intermission in which you go to the leveling zones, and the missions having set times clearly indicates 'best go do something else (level) while waiting for the timer' - said timers being like 7 days or something at the start of Legion pretty clearly indicating that you were not meant to just sit on your rear and do nothing while waiting.
Voss wrote: See, this is why you shouldn't jump to weird judgements. None of that is correct, or even vaguely relevant. Try sticking to the discussion rather some weird analysis of me personally.
I am reading your arguments and I definitely feel like this is the case. From weird definitions of what does and doesn't count as 'different' content (with daily quests, for example, the primary purpose was often reputation, whereas WQs have primarily been to fuel artifact power and order hall resources - most people got exalted with everything quickly - and this being in addition to all the other differences, like dailies being something you did daily and WQs being something you could wait up to 3 days between each round without losing much due to the emissary system).
Why...? Why in the world would you judge how a mechanic works based on the rewards? You might as well tell me that breakfast isn't a meal because generally the food is different from other meals.
And if you call Suramar's storyline boring somehow, how have you ever enjoyed any story in this game? You just walked up to Mass Effect and said 'this game has such a boring story, I am going back to pong'. Like WTF? I can't comprehend any standard or judgement that would lead you to such a conclusion.
'Save the race traitor rebels from their evil brethren' has done to death. Wow itself has done it multiple times (BC, Wrath with dwarves and trolls, inverted for undead, lots of content involving orcs, orcs again, and orcs in Draenor) . And had already done it really, really hard with magic addicted elves, which should be at least vaguely familiar to you.
It gave me no reason to care about manic teleport guy the hyper or forgettable woman the high something or other, let alone the other mooks. It did give Liandrin some time to shine, and the night elf leader time to thoroughly embarass herself (more, after the thoroughly laughable sequence in Val'Sharah). The story in Draenor was better than this (well, at least the alliance version), and was essentially the same story: beat the evil nazi elves/orcs who have aligned themselves with demons for reasons that aren't even vaguely beneficial to them.
And, by the way, yes. Mass Effect 1 was terribly boring. It consisted of jogging down hallways to turn in fetch quests and a few cinematics, a couple of which were well done.
And I mean... About the order hall campaign, the problem seems to be that you went into it with the expectation of doing it constantly 100-110. That was never advertised as the case, the leveling zones remain the primary means of leveling. The missions served as a campaign intermission in which you go to the leveling zones, and the missions having set times clearly indicates 'best go do something else (level) while waiting for the timer' - said timers being like 7 days or something at the start of Legion pretty clearly indicating that you were not meant to just sit on your rear and do nothing while waiting.
See, you're jumping to bizarre conclusions again. Why do have this bizarre belief I expected the class missions to be a leveling mechanic? Level had no meaning whatsoever in legion. Everything was tied to your level, and it didn't matter if you progressed or not. For the revolving grind at the end game, all that mattered was item level.
The campaign quests weren't on a timer, either, so I have no idea what you're trying to say with that.
My only expectation with the order hall campaign stories was they would be a coherent narrative that lead from one mission to the next, giving the player an overall impression of what their forces were doing against the legion. Instead it stuttered, went on bizarre side tracks for trivial garbage, then outright stopped, and then picked back up 5 levels later as if no time had passed. Instead of an interesting, coherent narrative that reflected the themes and important figures of each class, it was a traffic jam of incoherent bits and pieces.
Which fits, Legion as a whole for me. It was in my view, the worst expansion. Particularly when it came to story, narrative and leveling. Draenor was better than this. Pandaland was comparatively amazing. The only one I'd judge to be as bad is Cata, though I really liked the pre-patch changes to the worst of the world, so even that wasn't a total loss. In this one, the zone layouts were awful (I want a nice plain that people might live on, not a bizarre maze that makes me want flying), the color schemes were increasingly muted and awful, and most of the content had nothing at all to do with the legion or any wider relevance. Just fragmented snippets that other more famous people might be doing something ineffectual and generally failing at it. Oh and some macguffins that never appeared before and never will again mattered for... Some lock or other. Or not. And something, something another planet and spaceships, which should render the faction war completely one sided.
My enthusiasm for WoW comes and goes in waves. I have been playing on and off since Vanilla and every expansion is the same for me; I get really enthusiastic for the expansion and then as the reality of the time sink or grinding involved sinks in, I lose interest. I mostly play with a small group of dedicacted friends - not sure if they will be back for this expansion. I will most likely buy and play it initially at least, to level up. One thing that did pee me off; I wanted to level a Void Elf but now found out that I need to grind Legion rep to unlock them. Bit annoying for me since I never played Legion beyond its release. Will be really fun grinding the World Quests in an old content zone when no-one else is doing them anymore. I wonder if Blizz will drop the unlock restriction when BfA releases. I can understand them gating the unlock as it is pre-release content but restricting new content behind grinding old content on release seems idiotic.
I agree that Suramar was a really nice zone, which makes the Nightfallen's decision to join the Horde all the more frustrating; "I spent two whole raid tiers helping the Nightfallen and all I got was a lousy t...iger mount."
I don't think I've been as annoyed at the Alliance/Horde differences since the Alliance half of the Red Dragonflight stuff in Cata. Is it too much to ask to let my victories not be beneficial to the Horde all the damn time?
So the Alliance doesn't really move over Lordaeron. Varian Wrymm invests everything to retake this city. (and just how The Alliance made use of Tercio with steam powered (?) Helepolis.
Ain't this is a time to consider Warcraft 4 as an RTS? or any new tricks or new stories?
Lone Cat wrote: So the Alliance doesn't really move over Lordaeron.
Next week.
Varian Wrymm invests everything to retake this city
He's dead. And not everything, not by a long shot. Because space ship.
. (and just how The Alliance made use of Tercio with steam powered (?) Helepolis.
Not sure what you're referring to.
Ain't this is a time to consider Warcraft 4 as an RTS? or any new tricks or new stories?
They could, easily. They could flesh out the current war, for instance, and all the fights & warzones that will theoretically go on this expansion.
But then, the Alliance has a space ship with a frickkin laser cannon on it, and the Horde does not. So dropping the idiot ball means Alliance wins.
But the big thing is the RTS market is not a happy place right now. Starcraft2 kind of chugs along, but there doesn't seem to be much confidence that WC4 would get the kind of numbers Blizzard-Activision would demand.
----
Impressions of the BFA prepatch so far:
Week one was a buggy launch, but not bad afterwards.
Week two was a little iffy with a shoddy pretext for Silvanas' little war. But it was actually a narrative push with (what started out as) a reasonable goal: claim territory, kill an important leader.
Week three (this week): everything went splat, like it was dropped from the backside of a cow.
Spoiler:
Unlike the stages of last week, reinforcements arrive and.. everybody is already fighting in the last town in the zone. Oh, OK. No build up. Both sides then kill exactly 17 enemies and save 8 civilians (yes, the same civilians). Then after a bad scripted conversation between various leaders where they don't finish anyone off, just naval gaze about the ethics of war, everyone just leaves and things are on fire.
Mad Queen Silvie lost all pretense at sense or reason, and the cinematic and in game text are flatly contradicting themselves and each other, and the mad bad idiot ball hit the plot armor hard:
Hey, when you've got a helpless enemy boss don't... why are you walking away? Hey, lady, you've spent the last week obsessing about killing this guy, why would you not actually do it when he's literally on the ground, helpless in front of you. And you've left. And now his wife showed up and... totally abandoned her people to teleport them both to the other continent. Nice.
Right, we're ready to capture this city on your order, like you literally just said and... you're setting it on fire. OK then.
Next week: Retribution, I Guess
and then after that finally Battle For Azeroth: the Quest for More Boats. (not kidding)
Which sadly is a step up from the pre-patch content. Though happily only tangentially related to it. Really, the themes and narrative tones are suddenly completely different, and the fact that this event just happened isn't really relevant.
----
the big furor over this is largely because Blizz has been promising this all would be nuanced and morally grey. It isn't. Silvie got black hats for the entire horde and they murdered civilians en masse (900 or so on the tree). Because a defeated general got a bit lippy at the end. Bonus: said general was made for this pre-patch scenario. The Horde never saw her in their perspective, and had no idea who she is. This is terrible storytelling turned up to 11.
But sadly, to distinguish her from Garrosh, I fully expect Silvanas will get a redemption arc around content patch 2 or 3, right around the time when the 'real enemy' of the expansion shows up. I suspect Thrall or Anduin will be involved, as either Green or White Savior. Or since horde side is trolls, trolls and more trolls, Thrall will bring Vol'jin's spirit into it and he'll guide us into the Shadowlands to beat up Silvanas' guilt or whatever, freeing her from whatever is currently making her crazy(ier than usual)
I just want to pop in here and say I really hate the direction they are taking Sylvanas. Honestly, as a Horde player, I really hate all the crap we have had to endure in the name of bad storytelling.
First we have Thrall skip out on us to go do "things". He doesn't even leave somebody with experience in charge like say, Saurfang. No, he gives it to the roided out racist space orc.
Then, this genius starts a big fight with the Alliance while Deathwing is starting to destroy the world. At some point in this he kills Cairne. Thrall still out doing his thing. Comes to the funeral but thats about it.
I was going to continue with the hell that was Mop for the Horde but damn, thats a lot. Why are Thrall and Vol'jin the only leaders who dont go power hungry mad? Why couldnt we keep Vol'jin for awhile?
Crazyterran wrote: What? Sylvanas is evil! It’s not like we saw any hints of that in Gilneas or Hillsbrad?! Wait...
The general didn’t even get lippy, lol
Well that's what happens if you put Elves in charge it always goes horribly wrong, her Undeadness and Ladyness are irrelevant it's her petty Elven arrogance that'll end her
Dreadwinter wrote: I just want to pop in here and say I really hate the direction they are taking Sylvanas. Honestly, as a Horde player, I really hate all the crap we have had to endure in the name of bad storytelling.
First we have Thrall skip out on us to go do "things". He doesn't even leave somebody with experience in charge like say, Saurfang. No, he gives it to the roided out racist space orc.
Then, this genius starts a big fight with the Alliance while Deathwing is starting to destroy the world. At some point in this he kills Cairne. Thrall still out doing his thing. Comes to the funeral but thats about it.
I was going to continue with the hell that was Mop for the Horde but damn, thats a lot. Why are Thrall and Vol'jin the only leaders who dont go power hungry mad? Why couldnt we keep Vol'jin for awhile?
Direction they are taking Sylvanas? Son, you musta missed Southshore, Gilneas, and the part in Stormheim where she almost screwed Azeroth over in an attempt to get more valkyr.
Dreadwinter wrote: I just want to pop in here and say I really hate the direction they are taking Sylvanas. Honestly, as a Horde player, I really hate all the crap we have had to endure in the name of bad storytelling.
First we have Thrall skip out on us to go do "things". He doesn't even leave somebody with experience in charge like say, Saurfang. No, he gives it to the roided out racist space orc.
Then, this genius starts a big fight with the Alliance while Deathwing is starting to destroy the world. At some point in this he kills Cairne. Thrall still out doing his thing. Comes to the funeral but thats about it.
I was going to continue with the hell that was Mop for the Horde but damn, thats a lot. Why are Thrall and Vol'jin the only leaders who dont go power hungry mad? Why couldnt we keep Vol'jin for awhile?
Direction they are taking Sylvanas? Son, you musta missed Southshore, Gilneas, and the part in Stormheim where she almost screwed Azeroth over in an attempt to get more valkyr.
Keep in mind that the person you're replying to spent the first three pages of this thread arguing with anyone and everyone that Sylvanas is only misunderstood, and not actually evil.
So I just played throug all the scenarios and stuff. Horde burns down Teldrassil, Horde blows up Undercity. Alliance does... stuff, I guess. Sure, the Horde ultimately lost Lordaeron, but at what cost? Meanwhile, we didn't even get to see the Alliance really defend Teldrassil, because the Horde is obiously much smarter than puny humans and Night Elves. Ugh.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I just played throug all the scenarios and stuff. Horde burns down Teldrassil, Horde blows up Undercity. Alliance does... stuff, I guess. Sure, the Horde ultimately lost Lordaeron, but at what cost? Meanwhile, we didn't even get to see the Alliance really defend Teldrassil, because the Horde is obiously much smarter than puny humans and Night Elves. Ugh.
Teldrassil had the strategic weakness of being grown out of wood. The horde didn't even invade it, they just set it on fire with catapults.
As for what the horde lost, plenty of horde died defending the Undercity. They probably killed more Alliance than they lost, though with Anduin's resurrection shenanigans it's hard to tell. More importantly, it made Sylvanas look both callous about her own troops and bleeding incompetent, because she lost the Undercity without even fighting in the UNDERCITY - taking the aboveground portion of Lordaeron is less than half the battle.
The whole scenario left out several important elements - like teleportation portals making moving troops trivial and the freakin' Vindicaar, which would make Jaina's magic ship look like a dingy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I just played throug all the scenarios and stuff. Horde burns down Teldrassil, Horde blows up Undercity. Alliance does... stuff, I guess. Sure, the Horde ultimately lost Lordaeron, but at what cost? Meanwhile, we didn't even get to see the Alliance really defend Teldrassil, because the Horde is obiously much smarter than puny humans and Night Elves. Ugh.
Teldrassil had the strategic weakness of being grown out of wood. The horde didn't even invade it, they just set it on fire with catapults.
As for what the horde lost, plenty of horde died defending the Undercity. They probably killed more Alliance than they lost, though with Anduin's resurrection shenanigans it's hard to tell. More importantly, it made Sylvanas look both callous about her own troops and bleeding incompetent, because she lost the Undercity without even fighting in the UNDERCITY - taking the aboveground portion of Lordaeron is less than half the battle.
The whole scenario left out several important elements - like teleportation portals making moving troops trivial and the freakin' Vindicaar, which would make Jaina's magic ship look like a dingy.
Yeah...you know the idiot ball is being passed around in the Alliance you have practically complete air superiority with a spaceship yet fail to take advantage of it, even in a fantasy setting that's a huge oversight that would basically have the Horde screwed outside of more magic nuke shenanigans.
Looking forward to Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 later on this expansion.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I just played throug all the scenarios and stuff. Horde burns down Teldrassil, Horde blows up Undercity. Alliance does... stuff, I guess. Sure, the Horde ultimately lost Lordaeron, but at what cost? Meanwhile, we didn't even get to see the Alliance really defend Teldrassil, because the Horde is obiously much smarter than puny humans and Night Elves. Ugh.
Teldrassil had the strategic weakness of being grown out of wood. The horde didn't even invade it, they just set it on fire with catapults.
As for what the horde lost, plenty of horde died defending the Undercity. They probably killed more Alliance than they lost, though with Anduin's resurrection shenanigans it's hard to tell. More importantly, it made Sylvanas look both callous about her own troops and bleeding incompetent, because she lost the Undercity without even fighting in the UNDERCITY - taking the aboveground portion of Lordaeron is less than half the battle.
The whole scenario left out several important elements - like teleportation portals making moving troops trivial and the freakin' Vindicaar, which would make Jaina's magic ship look like a dingy.
Yeah...you know the idiot ball is being passed around in the Alliance you have practically complete air superiority with a spaceship yet fail to take advantage of it, even in a fantasy setting that's a huge oversight that would basically have the Horde screwed outside of more magic nuke shenanigans.
Well, they got complete air superiority anyway, because deus ex machina and OP Special Character.
Mind you, the implication (from her trailer and whatnot) was the boat was being taken home, and it was wrecked off the coast of Durotar, so showing up like this meant *passing* home, continuing on to a fight she knew nothing about (having stormed out of at beginning of the last expansion), and showing up at just the right time to join in the jog around the derelict city.
As for teleportation portals, the web fiction they contracted to fill in the plot holes (but doesn't really) laboriously mentions that portals somehow aren't usable for armies or refugees. Blah blah, an individual is fine, but somehow instantaneous travel can't be coordinated for large groups. [Go through and walk forward within 5 seconds is hard, I guess]. Basically they knew it created a plot hole and wanted to retcon it not working that way because they wanted to tell their story this way, regardless of the barriers. Nevermind that both sides used portals to another world and time frame to move an entire population of a garrison (work crews and soldiers) in about 3 minutes flat just two expansions ago. Of course, they've had similar problems with Rez magic and dead story characters as well. It just doesn't work when you've spent years establishing it's a trivial inconvenience.
Looking forward to Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 later on this expansion.
Still don't think they're going to go that way, if only they can say 'Haha, we ain't repeating ourselves, isn't that a Twist!' But mostly because darkest evil and redemption to shiny light= morally grey by blizzard logic. I wouldn't be surprised at a scenario or dungeon where we have to go into her mind and beat the evil out of her, however.
From a lore perspective its going to be interesting.
We know sylvanas is going to go down, I am hoping either by Genn Greymane, Jaina, or her just being exiled at the end of the expansion.
I love the horde but man the title of warchief is just screwing with them... Maybe they just have like a council? And then vote among themselves someone to represent them as a whole?
Otherwise they are going to constantly have this issue of having terrible warchiefs...
Though I do think this expansion is quite awesome. First rebuilding Stromguarde is kind of awesome, and also retaking Alterac, and Gilenas. This hopefully means we have new cities in the future....
Dreadwinter wrote: I just want to pop in here and say I really hate the direction they are taking Sylvanas. Honestly, as a Horde player, I really hate all the crap we have had to endure in the name of bad storytelling.
First we have Thrall skip out on us to go do "things". He doesn't even leave somebody with experience in charge like say, Saurfang. No, he gives it to the roided out racist space orc.
Then, this genius starts a big fight with the Alliance while Deathwing is starting to destroy the world. At some point in this he kills Cairne. Thrall still out doing his thing. Comes to the funeral but thats about it.
I was going to continue with the hell that was Mop for the Horde but damn, thats a lot. Why are Thrall and Vol'jin the only leaders who dont go power hungry mad? Why couldnt we keep Vol'jin for awhile?
Direction they are taking Sylvanas? Son, you musta missed Southshore, Gilneas, and the part in Stormheim where she almost screwed Azeroth over in an attempt to get more valkyr.
Or all the wierd experiments, she and her people have done since the beginning of WOW. Or when she murdered Lord Garthios.... Or when she used the plague in gilenas.... When she raised the dead against their will....
Sylvanas has always been evil. She's just more open about it now.
Ah yes, we all weep for the racist Garithos who sent the blood elves on a suicide mission and then went back on his word with Sylvania. Also when she used the plague in Gilneas to stop an out of control curse that threatened to wipe out all of humanity. Such a monster. Replenishing her ranks so her people will not be overtaken by their numerous enemies. Just awful.
Dreadwinter wrote: Ah yes, we all weep for the racist Garithos who sent the blood elves on a suicide mission and then went back on his word with Sylvania. Also when she used the plague in Gilneas to stop an out of control curse that threatened to wipe out all of humanity. Such a monster. Replenishing her ranks so her people will not be overtaken by their numerous enemies. Just awful.
Oh yeah Garithos can get fethed really, but the thing with Gilneas certainly wasn't to stop an out of control curse, it was to conquer it after Deathwings sheningans cracked their wall. There's nothing there that indicates she cared at all about the implications of the Worgen curse.. which was easily fixed later on anyways.. And given it didn't affect undead, I really doubt she'd care.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Some times I wish Kalec hadn't stopped Jaina from flooding Orgrimmar. She too was "only protecting her people" after all.
The Kalec-Jaina on-and off romance dynamic is another whole can of worms that has issues. Personally, its hard to take it seriously when you're dating a dragon, which can take human form....but it's still a dragon. It's like seeing Smaug being romantically interested in Bilbo...j-just no.
Also, I dunno, from a warhammer/Imperial perspective I liked Garithos a lot. As a human supremacist, he was ultimately proven right that the blood elves would end up being a problem for the alliance in the future. He played a role in this of course, but he didn't get them addicted to fel magic or work with the Horde/Legion.
@Voss
Yeah, I was mainly saying it to be facetious, but I'm sure that whatever they do with Sylvanas will be convoluted and dissatisfying as usual. Who knew the Warchief position had such a bad amount of turnover? They must have wanted ads posted all over the Cleft of Shadow in Orgrimmar.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Some times I wish Kalec hadn't stopped Jaina from flooding Orgrimmar. She too was "only protecting her people" after all.
I mean, he really shouldn't have, it was a stupid and naive thing to do. This is Warcraft. The Gods That Be will always push the races towards conflict. Cities will be sacked, villages will be raised, and orcs will kill humans. This goes the other way as well. Every 6 months to a year their lives are rocked with news of some new worldbreaking calamity or a sneak attack from the enemy. Hell, in two years they will probably stumble on a whole new fething continent. Probably with some playable murloc race and they will call it the Fog of Fllrrrgrrlia. Do what you gotta do out there. There is no good or evil in Warcraft. Just survival.
You know how the Alliance DIDN'T genocide the Horde after Siege of Orgrimmar? Yeah, would Sylvanas have done that if the roles were reversed? No? Then she's probably a wee bit evil.
"It's all about survival" is a cop-out, you can justify literally anything with that.
Sylvanas didn’t have Valkyr positioned at the Broken Shore because she was anticipating a loss - she was planning on attacking the Alliance as far back as Legion, and dragging the Horde/Voljin in with her.
Breotan wrote: So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.
Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.
What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.
I just leveled to 103 with a friend, but it's 4AM here now so it's sleep time. Zuldazar is AMAZING so far and living up to every piece of hype and beyond. It looked smaller than Suramar but it's actually bigger! The music, the voices, all great! Of course people will find some excuse to hate it anyway but I couldn't be more satisfied.
Breotan wrote: So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.
Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.
What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.
Hunters get a wolfhawk.
Spoiler:
Rogues get essentially a big raven.
My favourite is easily the priest mount. It's like an owl gryphon. It used to look even cooler before its particle effects got nerfed because some people were bothered by them :(
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: You know how the Alliance DIDN'T genocide the Horde after Siege of Orgrimmar? Yeah, would Sylvanas have done that if the roles were reversed? No? Then she's probably a wee bit evil.
"It's all about survival" is a cop-out, you can justify literally anything with that.
This. Sylvanas is a genocidal maniac and enemy of life itself. She is worse than Garrosh - she is more comparable to Arthas.
Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?
You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
Breotan wrote: So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.
Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.
What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.
Dreadwinter wrote: Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?
You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).
I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...
I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.
Dreadwinter wrote: Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?
You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).
I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...
I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.
Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?
I'm not really trying to find redeeming qualities for her. Up until Cataclysm her goals were to survive and kill Arthas. Pretty much full stop. Before Cataclysm, both factions were both good and bad. They each had their own issues. But they were not good or evil. Once Cataclysm dropped, it was clear the Horde was put on the road of the "bad guys". I mean, Thrall put Garrosh in charge because he was his buddies kid. He is a barely functioning rageaholic.
I mean, the Horde are the bad guys now. Sylvanus is evil now. But that was not always true.
Back during Vanilla, I noted that while both factions spent a lot of time fighting against bandits and non-Horde orcs and trolls (Blackrock orcs, etc...), only the Horde had a questline that involved wiping out a settlement belonging to the other faction. A group of Alliance farmers caught some members of the Horde snooping around, and imprisoned them. The punishment for such an act, of course, was to wipe out the town in question.
If there was a similar questline for the Alliance, I somehow managed to miss it.
Dreadwinter wrote: Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?
You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).
I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...
I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.
Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?
No, they haven't. They had the Horde at their mercy after the second war and didn't, and had them at their mercy again after the Siege of Orgrimmar and didn't.
Dreadwinter wrote: Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?
You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).
I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...
I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.
Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?
No, they haven't. They had the Horde at their mercy after the second war and didn't, and had them at their mercy again after the Siege of Orgrimmar and didn't.
We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?
Just my two cents but I'm a little annoyed at how BFA starts. Compared to the Alliance the Horde side characters are nowhere near as developed and their roster keeps getting killed off/thrown off the moral event horizon. Good ol Banshee is the only one of them with anything approaching a deep character because for whatever reason Blizzard keeps killing off the interesting Horde leaders before they get to actually do anything (Cairne and Vol'Jin), while those who remain are either boring or generally tacked on. Baine has all the character of a cardboard box, the Trolls don't really have anyone now, Lor'themar could be interesting if the plot wasn't always forgetting he exists, and has Gallywix done anything since Cataclysm? They really need to put some effort on developing the other Horde leaders or this is gonna get really stale.
I think the writers are writing themselves into a corner here, but then maybe they're getting ready to wrap up WoW in the next few years and don't care?
Not to even mention that Thrall's absence from a leadership position in the faction he basically founded is starting to get really glaring. Like a full on moral failing on his part really. First he picks someone completely unqualified to lead anyone for "reasons" and then the one guy left who actually had a good, mostly stable, head on his shoulders is offed by a trash mob and he just sits back and does nothing as Sylvanas literally burns the world down around her out what I can only see as spite. How Thrall can actually live with himself staying out of things is kind of baffling to me.
We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?
Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol
If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.
So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.
Lor'themar could be interesting if the plot wasn't always forgetting he exists
Velen (and the Draenei in general) had the same problem for quite a while. And when he finally did get pushed to a prominent role, it was actually his alternate history counter-part that we got exposed to in Warlords (right up until his early heroic sacrifice, anyway). It wasn't until Legion that "our" Velen finally got a prominent position in the spotlight. Of course, given the subject matter of Legion, questions would have been asked if Velen *didn't* have a prominent role in it.
Yeah it's why I didn't mention Velen, even though I'd argue that for a long time the Draenei were the most "what are they doing anyway" race in WoW for a solid four or five expansions. And honestly I'm not counting Warlords, cause alternate time Draenei might as well be a whole other faction (the alternate time Orcs basically are ) Even the Blood Evles got to show up and do things now than then here and there.
I'm still kind of surprised how little characters and specific plot lines advance expansion to expansion in a lot of ways. Despite it's large size and lots of room to develop the NPC cast of the game most of them get sidelined for years until a writer remembers they exist and brings them back up. I dully expect the Dark Spear trolls will not advance much in BFA, despite the Zandalari presenting a rather topical chance to kind of bring up a new leader for the faction + some new side characters. There's basically what now? Rokhan? Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller?
Really we could afford an expansion at this point that just focuses on the large number of perpetually dangling minor plot threads hanging around the game.
We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?
Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol
If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.
So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.
You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them. Which is what was happening. You don't start wholesale slaughter until you capture all of them and don't have to worry about the rest of the friends coming to bust them out. Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting, so the Alliance couldn't do what you are asserting here. A really famous guy perfected this method in RL.
So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely? The adults were not going to become slaves. So what do you think was happening? Lol pow camps. Just lol
I agree entirely with LordofHats. The Horde is boned beyond repair at this point and there is only one feth up to blame for it. Thrall.
I really enjoyed the battle for lordaeron! Felt quite epic and really showed off the engine improvements in wow since I last played. Tonnes going on during the fight with some cool moments.
Levelling seems reeeeally fast though?
We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?
Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol
If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.
So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.
You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them. Which is what was happening. You don't start wholesale slaughter until you capture all of them and don't have to worry about the rest of the friends coming to bust them out. Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting, so the Alliance couldn't do what you are asserting here. A really famous guy perfected this method in RL.
So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely? The adults were not going to become slaves. So what do you think was happening? Lol pow camps. Just lol
I agree entirely with LordofHats. The Horde is boned beyond repair at this point and there is only one feth up to blame for it. Thrall.
So you really don't know the backstory at all do you? The internment camps were because they rounded them up, but the Orcs were feeling the loss of demonblood and as a result were a very lethargic people afterwords.. Because the Alliance was not sure what was going on with them afterwords, when they could've just straight up killed them. They had no reason to build camps to hold them and figure out what was wrong, Genn Greymane was one of the ones in the "Why are we spending money on these rather then killing orcs" camp and it's one of the reasons why he decided to build the wall and just ignore things afterwords. Heck, the whole Thrall backstory was because of one man who was trying to build up the Orcs again because he wanted to conquer the alliance himself using an Orc Slave army!
It's hilarious how you are reaching though to defend Sylvanas... Quietly rounding up Orcs like they were just peaceful citizens living in Alliance towns. Come on man.
So: War Mode. Dumb idea or dumbest idea? I'm in a Mythic raiding guild. I have 0 interest in world PvP (which is generally just someone jumping someone else who can't defend themselves), but I do have an interest in Azerite. Is it reasonable to expect people like me to sacrifice our fun so the dudebros who spend their time corpse camping people can have theirs?
It's hilarious how you are reaching though to defend Sylvanas...
To be fair I think she was defensible right up until she decided to burn down an entire city (with a thousand unarmed civilians still inside) out of pure spite.
Her initial plan, while certainly of the highly questionable variety, wasn't that insane. Take Teldrassil and try to force peace with the Alliance on her terms by shaking up the generally selfish motivations of the individual players. Sylvanas presumed war was inevitable between the Alliance and the Horde, and while Anduin seems like a peace minded fellow, he's got Genn and Jaina as his closest advisors. Of those two one has an extremely personal and overt vendetta against Sylvanas (with good reason), and the other has been all but screaming for war for years (also with good reason). That's a situation where its really reasonable for her to assume war is an inevitability once the overarching threats before them are wiped off the board so strike first and force peace. It's a poorly devised plan imo, but it's the kind of realpolitik that happens in the real world all the time.
It also happened to be a scenario where every player involved had somewhat sympathetic or understandable reasons for their positions.
Then the writers just shoved Sylvanas off the moral event horizon, removing any real understandability her character had up to that point. The writers jumped the shark with Sylvanas just liked they jumped it with Garrosh. Instead of presenting an aggressive leader willing to take the Horde to war, they put up a total monster who makes all the other characters look like patsy and is not remotely sympathetic.
You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them.
So according to your line of thinking, the Alliance avoided slaughtering the Horde wholesale during the second war by imprisoning them in camps... just so that they could slaughter the Horde in the camps.
How does that make even the SLIGHTEST bit of sense?
Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting,
No, all the Alliance had to do was to say, "We don't accept your surrender. Die." Goodbye Horde. The Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other groups only survived by avoiding head-on confrontations with the Alliance military. The bulk of the orcish armies could have been wiped out by just refusing to accept their surrender. And there's nothing that the Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other orcish groups could have done to prevent that. The orcs had tried to beat the Alliance military with a head on confrontation under Doomhammer during the Second War. That had failed (in part because Guldan took part of the army and ran off to the Tomb of Sargeras; but that's neither here nor there), and the Alliance graciously decided to only imprison the survivors instead of massacre them. If the orcs couldn't win at their peak strength, there was no way that they were going to win when they were weak and scattered.
So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely?
I talked about this above. The orcs went into withdrawal due to the loss of demon blood. The Alliance was busy trying to figure out what was wrong with the orcs. Until they did that, there wasn't much point in trying to rehabilitate them.
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LordofHats wrote: Yeah it's why I didn't mention Velen, even though I'd argue that for a long time the Draenei were the most "what are they doing anyway" race in WoW for a solid four or five expansions.
This got lampshaded in Wrath. There was a Draenei delegation in Northrend practically begging the local Alliance leader at the docks on the western end of the continent to be allowed to bring in a contingent of Draenei priests and paladins to assist. It would seem an obvious move, since the Draenei are closer to the Light than any of the other races, and the focus of the expansion was undead. Draenei priests and paladins would have been a big help. Unfortunately, for reasons that they didn't understand, the local leader was refusing their request. It turned out that he was secretly a member of the Cult of the Damned, and he was undoubtedly keeping the Draenei out under Arthas's orders.
You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them.
So according to your line of thinking, the Alliance avoided slaughtering the Horde wholesale during the second war by imprisoning them in camps... just so that they could slaughter the Horde in the camps.
How does that make even the SLIGHTEST bit of sense?
Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting,
No, all the Alliance had to do was to say, "We don't accept your surrender. Die." Goodbye Horde. The Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other groups only survived by avoiding head-on confrontations with the Alliance military. The bulk of the orcish armies could have been wiped out by just refusing to accept their surrender. And there's nothing that the Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other orcish groups could have done to prevent that. The orcs had tried to beat the Alliance military with a head on confrontation under Doomhammer during the Second War. That had failed (in part because Guldan took part of the army and ran off to the Tomb of Sargeras; but that's neither here nor there), and the Alliance graciously decided to only imprison the survivors instead of massacre them. If the orcs couldn't win at their peak strength, there was no way that they were going to win when they were weak and scattered.
So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely?
I talked about this above. The orcs went into withdrawal due to the loss of demon blood. The Alliance was busy trying to figure out what was wrong with the orcs. Until they did that, there wasn't much point in trying to rehabilitate them.
The reason the Alliance didn't slaughter the remaining clans is because doing so would have cost too much. Stormwind had fallen and Lordaeron was not in good shape. It would have been silly for them to attempt to press the attack,
But you know what, it is silly for the Alliance to round up Orcs in to internment camps to kill them. Those things have never been effective. I dont think there is a single instance in history where a population was imprisoned and executed in a camp such as this.
The reason the Alliance didn't slaughter the remaining clans is because doing so would have cost too much. Stormwind had fallen and Lordaeron was not in good shape. It would have been silly for them to attempt to press the attack,
It was cheaper to build camps, find the orcs.. and just put them in there, rather then just.. y'know, killing them where they were.. Instead the cheaper option was building camps, feeding them, and overall just..
But you know what, it is silly for the Alliance to round up Orcs in to internment camps to kill them. Those things have never been effective. I dont think there is a single instance in history where a population was imprisoned and executed in a camp such as this
You really are reaching aren't you? Once again, do you think they were just pulling orcs from cities? Rather then... y'know, having to go through places like Blackrock Mountain. Fortresses, war camps, places they had razed previously. And then getting all these orcs back to Alliance lands through hostile territory, feeding them, giving them food, water, and some sort of shelter... Seriously though, keep it up this is making my day.
To be fair I think she was defensible right up until she decided to burn down an entire city (with a thousand unarmed civilians still inside) out of pure spite.
Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.
Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.
Oh she's totally evil even before Teldrassil, but I think her motivations could be understood and sympathized with up to that point.
She's the leader of a faction that spent the first 4-5 years of the game under constant siege because a madman raised them from the dead against their will and a whole bunch of still living folks didn't give a gak that they weren't part of the Scourge anymore. At the time of of her invasion of Gilneas she has no reason whatsoever to think the Alliance will ever allow her to live in peace except through force, and her force dwindles over time since her population can't grow by normal means. As black as her ethics are, she prior to the start of BFA came off as an extreme pragmatist/well-intentioned extremist who did bad gak because all of her options lay between "do bad gak" and "just die." Par for the course for the franchise honestly. A lot of the series villains end up where they are because their choices suck or because they're horrifically flawed individuals (often times both).
Then at the start of BFA she murders a bunch of decent people who are making progress on reconciling the rift between the Foresaken and their still living families because heaven forbid she end up without a people to lead, and then she switches a semi-sensible plan to force a peace for genocide because someone used what is apparently her trigger word. At this point she can't be sold as extremely pragmatic or an extremist juggling rotten options. She's just an out and out monster.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.
Oh she's totally evil even before Teldrassil, but I think her motivations could be understood and sympathized with up to that point.
She's the leader of a faction that spent the first 4-5 years of the game under constant siege because a madman raised them from the dead against their will and a whole bunch of still living folks didn't give a gak that they weren't part of the Scourge anymore. At the time of of her invasion of Gilneas she has no reason whatsoever to think the Alliance will ever allow her to live in peace except through force, and her force dwindles over time since her population can't grow by normal means. As black as her ethics are, she prior to the start of BFA came off as an extreme pragmatist/well-intentioned extremist who did bad gak because all of her options lay between "do bad gak" and "just die." Par for the course for the franchise honestly. A lot of the series villains end up where they are because their choices suck or because they're horrifically flawed individuals (often times both).
Then at the start of BFA she murders a bunch of decent people who are making progress on reconciling the rift between the Foresaken and their still living families because heaven forbid she end up without a people to lead, and then she switches a semi-sensible plan to force a peace for genocide because someone used what is apparently her trigger word. At this point she can't be sold as extremely pragmatic or an extremist juggling rotten options. She's just an out and out monster.
Do remember that she also planned to kill her sister and her children (after the death of her husband!)in order to bring them into the Forsaken fold about.. was it Cataclysm or MoP? hm. Regardless she's been doing things selfishly for the longest period of time that it genuinely does not surprise me that she chose to kill a bunch of Forsaken that were given peace.
Do remember that she also planned to kill her sister and her children (after the death of her husband!)in order to bring them into the Forsaken fold about.. was it Cataclysm or MoP? hm.
Yeah totally evil, but she's desperately lonely and wants to be with her family? Her means are fethed up as usual but her motivation is relatable. EDIT: Not to mention I'll point out that in one of the pre-release comics she has a huge argument with both her sisters, deep in Horde territory, with Dark Banshee's waiting in ambush, and she not only lets her sisters leave peacefully but looks outright miserable that their relationship has become so strained. Her thoughts about killing them and raising them from the dead come off more like a cathartic exercise than something she actually wants to do.
Compare that to her Warbringer video, where someone says "you can't kill hope" and she instantly switches to fethed up means with lacking in sympathy motivation because apparently hope is her berserk button.
Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.
No it's not. The lore states orcs were being rounded up in to camps. The result of that camp was slavery or death. A lot of times the slavery resulted in death.
How am I going against lore when I am using facts about the lore. The Alliance kind of drug themselves down when they were giving orcs the option of slavery or death.
Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.
No it's not. The lore states orcs were being rounded up in to camps. The result of that camp was slavery or death. A lot of times the slavery resulted in death.
How am I going against lore when I am using facts about the lore. The Alliance kind of drug themselves down when they were giving orcs the option of slavery or death.
You may want to use actual facts. They were mostly just prisoners. Aside from Blackmoore, who as I mentioned previously trying to turn Orcs into warriors to conquer the Alliance for himself.
Spoiler:
The triumphant humans, however, all but tore their Alliance apart on what to do with their defeated enemies. While Terenas Menethil II of Lordaeron believed the orcs would one day lose their lust for conquest, Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas demanded their executions. They effectively settled on a sentence of life imprisonment, although disagreement and anger over the issue remained entrenched as nations left the Alliance in various frustrations.
Amidst the Alliance's turmoil, many of the camp wardens began to notice an unsettling change come over their orc captives. The orcs' efforts to escape from the camps or even fight amongst themselves had greatly decreased in frequency over time. The orcs were becoming increasingly aloof and lethargic. Though it was difficult to believe, the orcs - once held as the most aggressive race ever seen on Azeroth - had completely lost their will to fight. The strange lethargy confounded the Alliance leaders and continued to take its toll on the rapidly weakening orcs.[5]
Some speculated that some strange disease, contractible only by orcs, brought about the baffling lethargy. But Archmage Antonidas of Dalaran posed a different hypothesis. Researching what little he could find of orcish history, Antonidas learned that the orcs had been under the crippling influence of demonic power for generations. He speculated that the orcs had been corrupted by these powers even before their first invasion of Azeroth. Clearly, demons had spiked the orcs' blood, and in turn the brutes had been granted unnaturally heightened strength, endurance, and aggression.[5]
Antonidas theorized that the orcs' communal lethargy was not actually a disease, but a consequence of racial withdrawal from the volatile warlock magics that had made them fearsome, bloodlusted warriors. Though the symptoms were clear, Antonidas was unable to find a cure for the orcs' present condition. Then too, many of his fellow mages, as well as a few notable Alliance leaders, argued that finding a cure for the orcs would be an imprudent venture. Left to ponder the orcs' mysterious condition, Antonidas' conclusion was that the orcs' cure would have to be a spiritual one.[5]
As their lethargy increased, the orcs became even more apathetic and resigned to their fates. Fights, whether between two prisoners or between prisoners and guards, decreased in frequency until they were virtually unheard of. The once fearsome race of warriors had become a pitiful people to whom even moving around didn't seem worth the effort, and many prisoners could be seen sitting in their own filth. Because the prisoners at the camps had gone so long without making trouble, security measures become extremely lax. Since nobody ever tried to escape, fewer and fewer guards were assigned to each camp and the walls were easy to scale if one were so inclined, which no-one ever was
So I should look at the actual lore which consists of two major members of the Alliance at the time calling for their executions and then leaving said Alliance(No Internment Camps in their lands, oddly). I should also disregard the guy actively enslaving them as proof that they are indeed being enslaved?
Dreadwinter wrote: So I should look at the actual lore which consists of two major members of the Alliance at the time calling for their executions and then leaving said Alliance(No Internment Camps in their lands, oddly). I should also disregard the guy actively enslaving them as proof that they are indeed being enslaved?
Is this your argument?
If you want to be fallacious, sure you can say that's my argument.
But lets put it bluntly, two members of the alliance got overruled. One got pissed, built a big wall and decided "Nah, screw you guys", and the other just decided to follow suit under the pressure of the rest of the alliance which you may note is more then just two members (Two out of Ten members of the second war alliance for note).
What you are however implying is that every single camp decided "Orcs be slaves or death!" while distastefully pulling out a holocaust reference. When only one man and his goons attempted such because of the lax oversight, to try and state the entire alliance was forcing Orc Slaves while killing them slowly because of slavery, or killing them because they didn't desire slavery.. Yeah no, you've been disingenuous.
You said the Alliance was putting them into camps to wipe them out originally, then you moved onto Slavery or Death, and now this. Blatant goalpoal moving. Thanks for playing!
ZebioLizard2 wrote: You said the Alliance was putting them into camps to wipe them out originally, then you moved onto Slavery or Death, and now this. Blatant goalpoal moving. Thanks for playing!
When the slavery involves fighting a war which will ultimately end in their deaths......
Goalpost moving. Lol, it really helps the argument when you guys understand the consequences of the Alliances action. Maybe when that happens we can have a conversation where the Alliance is shown in a bad light. But rivht now the fanboy is too strong in here.
I play Horde, but thanks for trying the "Fanboy" card when you haven't presented an actual case. Resorting to Ad Hominem is certainly going to help.
When the slavery involves fighting a war which will ultimately end in their deaths......
Right, the thing of the matter is you are using a very broad statement with "The Alliance is doing this". When none of the Alliance is doing this. The Elves, Lordaeron, Stormwind, Gnomereagon have nothing to do with this.. It's this one dude and a bunch of his hired mercs who wanted to use the Orcs as slaves.
It's kind of like saying every member of the Horde is responsible for demon summoning and genocide because Gul'dan existed as part of The Horde. Thrall is just a demon worshipping, demon blood giving, genocidal maniac because The Horde wanted to genocide everything for demons. It's a very disingenuous way of saying something.
Remembet when I said one guy was responsible for the enslavement while members of the Alliance were calling for their executions.
I sure do! It was only a few posts ago! If you scroll up 4 posts you can see it. Try not putting words in mouths. Yadda yadda, something about Pepperidge Farms.
So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
The Alliance wanted the Horde wiped out. Except for one guy who wanted to jse them as a slave army.
Yep, except you still did it for "The Alliance wanted the Horde wiped out" part. Which was.. once again, not the entire alliance.
Well, I cant argue with somebody lacking reading comprehension.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
Highly unlikely. The factions are pretty polarized right now.
While I kind of get where Sylvanas is coming from, in a lasting peace between the alliance and horde will probably never happen, it feels like her go-to solution of 'burn a tree full of civilians' was a trifle harsh.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
Well, the Alliance just had a bunch of ex-Blood Elves join them (the Void Elves) because they'd rather the Horde didn't have access to the stuff they've discovered. The whole High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf stuff makes this a rather special case though; I doubt any other Horde race that isn't Pandaren would be welcome in the Alliance. There's kinda a reluctance to having defenseless civilians slaughtered repeatedly, for some reason.
Also, on the subject of Alliance vs. Horde brutality:
First War: Horde shows up high on Demon blood and starts killing people. Azeroth (what would later become Stormwind) defends itself but is ultimately sacked and have to run to Lordaeron to ask for help.
Second War: The Horde pushes north and attacks Khaz Modan and other Dwarven holdings. The newly-formed Alliance kicks the Orcs out of Stormwind and win the war, putting most of the remaining Orcs in the internment camps.
Third War: Everyone vs. the Burning Legion, except Grom Hellscream feths up again and kills Cenarius while high on Demon blood (again!).
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Circa Cataclysm: Sylvanas uses the Blight on Southshore and attacks Gilneas.
Circa Mists of Pandaria: Horde forces enslave local Pandaren, chopping down their apple orchards and kidnapping their children in order to keep them in line. The Alliance lies about building an advance base. Totally equivalent. Garrosh violates the neutrality of Dalaran and nukes Theramore. The Alliance defends itself, as usual.
When has the Alliance actually been the aggressor on a macro scale? I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of stuff (genuinely, not being sarcastic here), but I can't for the life of me come up with a case.
I recently reached 115 and now have a quest to visit Nathaniel BC and go to three (?) new zones? I havent finished any of the troll zones as of yet. Does that matter?
Is there anyway to respec your heart of azure gear - like the little azurite gem slots in them - pull them out and put in new ones?
I randomly found a hearthstone in my bags to return me to my garrison (never had a garrison). Wassat do?
Is there a final talent point at 120 for all classes?
The quest to go to the three Alliance zones is your War Campaign. I'd focus on getting to 120 first and then doing the War Campaign.
Yes, you can respec your Azerite trait, although I have no clue where Horde players do it.
The Garrison was part of the Warlords of Draenor expansion, so you'd end up in Draenor if you used it.
No, there are no level 120 talents, Azerite gear fills that function.
Kap'n Krump wrote: While I kind of get where Sylvanas is coming from, in a lasting peace between the alliance and horde will probably never happen, it feels like her go-to solution of 'burn a tree full of civilians' was a trifle harsh.
#notmywarchief
If I'm Saurfang listening to her rationale, I can apply the same rationale to the alliance between the forsaken and the rest of the horde. Its always been an alliance of convenience and even weaker than any lasting peace between the living Horde and the Alliance....
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
The only example I know of a member of a Horde race being in the Alliance aside from Alleria bringing in some Void Elves is Valeera Sanguinar. Even then though Valeera isn't loyal to the Alliance as much as she is to Varian (who is dead now), and by extension Anduin on account of the later being the former's son. In fact she only took a position as Varian's body guard on the condition that she wouldn't be a member of the Alliance but a neutral figure politically something that Anduin has used before BfA to secretly negotiate with Baine.
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Siiiiiigh
To clarify, this isn't about the Wrathgate, this is about the metric button of Alliance troops in Icecrown proper that died because the Horde attacked them in a blizzard.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Well, the Alliance just had a bunch of ex-Blood Elves join them (the Void Elves) because they'd rather the Horde didn't have access to the stuff they've discovered. The whole High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf stuff makes this a rather special case though; I doubt any other Horde race that isn't Pandaren would be welcome in the Alliance. There's kinda a reluctance to having defenseless civilians slaughtered repeatedly, for some reason.
Blizzard love to put elves in all factions and then sprinkle in some more elf it seems. Even in Warcraft 3 there were elves in two factions. Isn't having two different subfactions of elves in the alliance very redundant though?
Anyway, if orcs, trolls and taurens can't join the alliance (Can goblins do it? I mean they were neutrals in War3, are they now 100% Horde aligned and unwelcome in Alliance?) that changes things quite a lot. It's not just about political affiliations, it's about race (well, not race, species actually).
[edit]From what I heard now even the leader of the Horde is an elf lol. How long until the leader of the Alliance is one too? Though afaik the leader of the Alliance is always human.[/edit]
The goblins are all varied factions, and some do work with the Alliance. Some are quite neutral like Booty Bay and the like.
Taurens can partially be part of the Alliance, since the Druidic order tends to work together regardless of politics, there were some neutral trolls that worked with the Alliance as well, but overall they tend to lean horde if they aren't of the insane/hateful category.
Blizzard love to put elves in all factions and then sprinkle in some more elf it seems. Even in Warcraft 3 there were elves in two factions.
Isn't having two different subfactions of elves in the alliance very redundant though?
Honestly I think the Void elves were added 1) to give the Alliance a token questionable team mate (got some void lords whispering to you eh?) and 2) the blood elf model is easily the best looking in the game if only because most of the character models in game show their age pretty badly and now the Alliance gets them too.
And to be fair the Horde has more elves now too. They basically gave the Horde their own version of Night Elves while the Alliance got some Blood Elf action. Really I think the most redundant alliance races are the new Tauren and Draenei. Not that I don't appreciate cool moose antlers for my fantasy cow people cause those do look neat, but lore wise both those races feel really lack luster. At least the other additions have something interesting or potentially interesting going on.
Updating the TBC starting areas a little wouldn't go amiss, especially for the Draenei. I started a new Draenei character or two back in Legion, and playing through the same starting area I did 11 years ago as if nothing more of the story had happened was a huge disconnect. For some reason the Blood Elf one doesn't feel to have aged nearly as poorly to me.
Do you guys think we will get an updated Northrend? We got a vanilla update with Cata and a kinda updated version of Outlands with Warlords. Makes sense that Northrend would be next.
Honestly, I could go for an actual Outlands update. Those zones need freshened up and polished so bad. They are my least favorite zones when leveling, I try my hardest to avoid as much of it as possible.
Dreadwinter wrote: Do you guys think we will get an updated Northrend? We got a vanilla update with Cata and a kinda updated version of Outlands with Warlords. Makes sense that Northrend would be next.
I think we might go back at some point with the Old Gods returning to the fore as major antagonists, plus in Legion Bolvar Fordragon seems to be adopting some darker habits that could be used as foreshadowing for his own corruption by the Helm of Domination.
Honestly, they have a tons of real estate to work with in Northrend, most of the Nerubian Kingdoms are unexplored. I am sure Bolvar has been busy, even with the Ebon Blade keeping an eye on them.
Plus, the Horde needs Taunka or the Walrus People as a new race. Taunka are just more interesting than Tauren with moose horns.
Dinged at 120 last Friday.
Any ideas on how to gear up well/fast?
Mainly looking to build a decent kit for PvP. Is pvp gear such as it was gone now?
I have lots of these account bound emblem thingys that say they can be cashed in for legacy/pvp gear?
Ratius wrote: Dinged at 120 last Friday.
Any ideas on how to gear up well/fast?
Mainly looking to build a decent kit for PvP. Is pvp gear such as it was gone now?
I have lots of these account bound emblem thingys that say they can be cashed in for legacy/pvp gear?
World Quests, world quests, world quests. About the only thing to do at the moment. Crafting can give a baseline of stuff, but once you get an epic (a purple item) equipped, WQ drops have a chance of upgrading.
The reliable way to get epics is crafting or hitting revered and buying them from quartermasters. After that, at least for me, stuff is randomly dinging up to 350 ilevel.
Weapons for whatever reason are very rare, and dungeons are inexplicably fairly unreliable for gear drops. (I think that might have been true for legion as well, but didn't run them often enough to say for sure).
---
The sad thing is I feel burnt out on this expansion already. I liked the alliance zones (Stormsong more than Drustvar, but mostly because Drustvar feel like 100% pure cliche), but I hate the island expeditions (100% go-go-go, the aspect I hate most about dungeons, with all the story and exploration ripped out), and the WQs are just revisiting zone content without any sort of sense or story content.
I kinda hope the Warfront opens before my sub runs out, as I'd like to try it, but not enough to cash in another token.
When my computer is fixed, I plan on diving back in to this. Did they put actual weapons back in the game? Did they finally make World Quests spawn all over the world, or just the new areas?
Dreadwinter wrote: When my computer is fixed, I plan on diving back in to this. Did they put actual weapons back in the game?
In theory.
I mean, yes they did, but for whatever reason the drop rate on ilevel 300+ weapons is really terrible and rare. I finally got an emissary quest that gave a weapon a reward, and of course it ended up being a one hander for a two handed specialization, because Light forbid you play a class in a way that Blizzard doesn't feel is right. I'd love to sword and board as a non-tank class, but apparently that is just wrong and half the abilities get turned off, because reasons. Same reason frost DKs can't use two handed weapons.
But you'll get some as quest rewards while leveling. On the other hand, weapon and armor variety is really low this expansion. No class sets, and just a few different designs. A giant cutlass, a even more bigger giant two-handed cutlass, a fairly decent looking polearm and a stupidly big cinderblock passing as a hammer. That's pretty much the extent of the Alliance weapon variety I've seen. And another weird art-deco thing passing as a 'staff,' but I've only really seen that through jewelcrafting crafting. As far as armor goes, there is essentially a single horde look and a single alliance look (by armor type) and a few odd pieces here and there. It really looks like the art team got stomped on, and was stopped from producing much.
Did they finally make World Quests spawn all over the world, or just the new areas?
No.
I thought I heard there would be some when the Arathi warfront unlocks (next month?) but I'm not sure that's actually true.
Anyone doing pvp at the moment in this?
Have to say it seems quite balanced so far. Im playing resto drood.
Reminds me of the nice plateau they hit mid way through TBC when most classes were balanced, fights were involved and interesting and there wasnt any 1 shotting/CC chains.
Recently discovered you can Q for the alliance team as a horde player to reduce waiting times (and vice versa)
Oh wow. That would be real confusing for me. I never had issues with queue time for PvP. My original server was 3:1 Alliance/Horde. Queue time was instant. Then we were still outnumbered in Cross Servers.
We actually had a Rogue on our server, named Tadhg, hit GM and HWL in vanilla. If he hadn't joined the guild I was in for his HWL run, I would have said he was a bot. Rogue for GM and HWL. He was a crazy guy.
So, a few days after raid release, what's everyone's progress like? My guild cleared all of normal except G'huun on Wednesday; we're currently progressing on Vectrix.
Sorry for Threadromancy. So, been a while but I'm just getting back into WoW. Downloaded overnight and will be trying it out tonight. Anything special I should know about BfA? Last time I played was when Legion was new, I had a demon hunter that I got up to 110, so I guess I'll be using him. I don't have a guild or anything I mostly just play solo and do occasional PUGs. rarely do raids. More in it for questing and stories rather than loot grinding.
Necros wrote: Sorry for Threadromancy. So, been a while but I'm just getting back into WoW. Downloaded overnight and will be trying it out tonight. Anything special I should know about BfA? Last time I played was when Legion was new, I had a demon hunter that I got up to 110, so I guess I'll be using him. I don't have a guild or anything I mostly just play solo and do occasional PUGs. rarely do raids. More in it for questing and stories rather than loot grinding.
I, too, started WoW up again recently, after having last played at Legion start for maybe 2 months.
You get a free 110 boost, so don't feel tied to an old character. You can create a Trial character at 110 and use the boost on it if you feel comfortable with the class.
The main quest lines are pretty fun with a good story, but are mostly the usual kill 10/10 of this and collect 5/5 of that. Side quest lines are mostly uninspired (as usual).
There are lots of rares and treasure chests, the rewards are motly lame though (minimal amounts of resources).
War Mode activates your world PvP and grants you 3 additional talents which can also be used in PvE world content and get you 10% extra XP and quest rewards. You barely run into the other faction during questing, so it's well worth activating it.
A refreshing experience for me were the Island Expeditions (scenarios for 3 players) which let you scour uncharted isles where you need to collect Azerite faster than Horde/Alliance NPCs. These can be later also played against real player teams instead of NPCs.
The instances are okay-ish, but too easy for my liking. Haven't tried them on Mythic though.
I have now played for nearly a month (only in the evenings) and I can see myself expanding the subscription for another 1-2 months.
Patch 8.1 would fall into this timeframe and a lot of content is promised, so we'll see how much play time this adds.
Cool, I might try the 110 boost.. I also have 2 level 100 boosts. Maybe I’ll try to unlock some of those other new races too. I liked the demon hunter though, I usually go for DPS, was never a fan of tanking or healing. Over the years I’ve tried just about every class out there, I think affliction warlock was my favorite.. but like 8 years ago, no idea what they’re like now. It’s cool that they let you try out each one now though.
I think I would play a lot more if there was an easy way to play on a tv, or a console version like ESO.. with the amount of hours you gotta put in, I’d much rather just do it on a comfy sofa.
A refreshing experience for me were the Island Expeditions (scenarios for 3 players) which let you scour uncharted isles where you need to collect Azerite faster than Horde/Alliance NPCs. These can be later also played against real player teams instead of NPCs.
Islands get old really fast, especially if you want any of the transmog drops, which are as rare as hen's teeth. Good way to farm Azerite power, bad for everything else. It's worth assembling a group with voice chat if you can, as randoms often fair poorly - you get one guy who wants to farm rare mobs, another that wants to speedrun, and a third that wants to punch the opposing team in the face.
At least with instances everyone is there with the same goals, more or less.
Got through the first few new quests .. totally forgot how to play my demon hunter and what all of the skills do, but I figured it out. I just finished the part where you do the jailbreak and get to that new town. I like what they are doing with the animated cutscenes .. hope there will be a lot more of that. Since I first got ESO, I always wished WoW would follow that approach and have voice actors reading the quest info. Reading a little journal page window is so 2004. I have an ultrawide monitor too, makes it tough to look to the far corners for my health and stuff in the middle of a fight, i'll have to look for some ui addons.
All the old character models have been updated in recent years, mostly at the same time. Most during the Warlords of Draenor launch, blood elves a bit later during that expansion.
Goblins and Worgen were finally updated last year.
Personally I found the allied races to be mostly lazy. They're either redundant skins for an existing race in the faction, or empty crossfactioning for the sake of Moar Elves.
Voss wrote: All the old character models have been updated in recent years, mostly at the same time. Most during the Warlords of Draenor launch, blood elves a bit later during that expansion.
Goblins and Worgen were finally updated last year.
Personally I found the allied races to be mostly lazy. They're either redundant skins for an existing race in the faction, or empty crossfactioning for the sake of Moar Elves.
I can only speak to the ones I've unlocked. The Void Elves and Lightforged, especially the Lightforged, are lacking heavily in customization options, but at least the Void Elves have decent hair options that set them apart from another somewhat. The Dark Iron look very nice. Hopefully, they'll all be updated more in the Shadowlands.
I only came back for the 8.3 release and it's been enjoyable. Very different game from Classic (I have 2 60s there), but Classic isn't quite how I remember vanilla. I think having both running side by side really highlights the improvements made since vanilla as well as the shortcomings. Leveling is much better, though pre-Cataclysm Azeroth has a somewhat better feel. The BFA questlines for each respective zone are enjoyable, more so than Legion or WoD for me. Solo content is greatly improved and now that sets bonuses are gone and most good Azerite traits were available at release (ie my rogue still stacks the same 3 from 8.0) you're not as reliant on random gear drops to at least play your class. Corruption can be an RNG annoyance however. The biggest negatives are that the modern game relies too heavily on short day to day to grinds and time locked content as well that lack of socialization in comparison to Classic. At least it's much better balanced and no spec is completely useless.
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