Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

Well... they are strong but if he had Lacannons and Melta i bet 1/2 the shooting would take out that same land raider.

Its on 1-2 damage, thats not very good honestly to deal with lots of vehicles, MC or heavy vehicles.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks, as we have access to the same gimmick but several times cheaper. Marines don't actually benefit from the multi-purpose value of plasma as unlike guard the models equipped with it cost as much if not more as the upgrade itself .

Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting. As such it's my go-to when the superheavies would be impolite

I have seen a rise in Aegis Defence Line based marine plasma gunlines with the Capt/Ancient/Lieutenant triumverate, but as a guard player, I outrange and outgun, outlast and (frequently) outnumber them.

 malamis wrote:
For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks. Marines don't actually benefit from the multi-purpose value of plasma as unlike guard the models equipped with it cost as much if not more as the upgrade itself .

Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting. As such it's my go-to when the superheavies would be impolite

Absolutely! For guard plasmaguns/cannons are pretty awesome right now, it's why they increased the price on BF3+ plasmaguns (still worth it though). Plasmacannons are now pretty good on LR since they changed the Gets Hot to just 1 mortal wound on a 1.

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys, ...

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

Well in 7th, my experience was less so. Chapter Masters, Captains, and HQ Choices overall were less common than they seem to be in 8th. Many more lists also seemed to be based around Psyker HQ's in 7th. What I mean to say is that the meta seems to be shifting because suddenly the Captains and Chapter Masters are significantly more useful because of the nature of re-rolls and thus can be exploited in certain ways. But I don't think they're what makes Marine Armies work, they just seem to give them a (relatively big) push compared to what they used to do in 7th if used correctly.

malamis wrote:Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting.

And the re-rolls... oh god the amount of Overcharged Plasma is real! haha

If you think plasma is good on normal marines, try it on Death Guard

Plasma is indeed good in 8th. Though, I will say that if most of a 2000pt army fires at a Land Raider, you should probably expect it to die regardless of what weapons are being used.

The thing is though, I consider rerolls to be the cherry on the cake, rather than the main reason why they're taken. Other reasons include:
- With 9" deep strike, plasma can get into optimal range from reserve but meltas can't.
- Plasma can fire at targets more than 12" away, meltas or flamers can't.
- Plasma shoots twice at 12", meaning an Overcharged plasmagun can potentially kill 2 two-wound models, whilst weapons like meltas can only ever kill one.
- With no chance of explosions and with Lascannons and such dealing d6 damage apiece, Meltas and the like really don't bring much to the table (yes, they're slightly better against heavier targets, but not enough to justify what you lose by taking them).

 malamis wrote:
For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks, as we have access to the same gimmick but several times cheaper.

This statement puzzles me. I certainly wouldn't consider Plasma an auto-include on IG tanks.

I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

And Harker only works on Catachan tanks. This means that if you want to move your tanks, then those Overcharged plasma cannons will Overheat on a roll of 1 or 2 and only the 1 can be rerolled by Harker or such.

So I certainly agree that plasma is good on IG infantry, but (to my mid at least) it's lacklustre on most of our tanks. And I think you're stretching the truth a bit when you say that said tanks have access to the same gimmick but 'several times cheaper'.

 vipoid wrote:


I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

I'm referring to the Cadian doctrine; which is 'free' points wise, or as you point out, provided with Company/platoon commanders if mobility matters.

 malamis wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

I'm referring to the Cadian doctrine; which is 'free' points wise, or as you point out, provided with Company/platoon commanders if mobility matters.

Ah, I see.

Do you think that doctrine is good for plasma though? Given that you have to stat still for it to work, it seems one more suited to long-range stuff like artillery and Lascannons.

I think so. Plasma is probably too cheap since it is good versus most things in the game.

Its only not that good against super cheap horde units (around 4~ points a wound) but once you move up to 8 points or so its usually at least as points efficient as regular small arms shooting.

It becomes incredibly efficient once you push to 12-20 (factoring in equipment) points a wound. Its probably single handedly driving bikes from the meta. A lot of "elite" units with 2 wounds become horribly vulnerable even with invuls.

I disagree that its not good against vehicles/monsters. Its a very reliable way to chip away wounds - especially if you have some way to buff/reroll 1s on the overcharge (although its not required - just accept the losses). If you can deep strike straight into rapid fire range its generally better point for point than a lascannon - the trade off is that its worse outside of rapid fire range. You also can't get lucky - sometimes you always roll 6s for lascannon damage. But at the same time you will occasionally roll 1s (and yes, you can command point - but you can only do that once per turn).

I have to agree that Plasma is poorly statted out compared to other weapons. I find the heavy plasma gun to be relative crap though (33% of the time it's doing 1 shot at mediocre range) for the cost.

It really should be a -2 save modifier at minimum as a change, but I find that unlikely. They'd have to do a sweeping change which would impact almost every book.

As much as people complaint of Auras, at last HQ's that arent psychers or juts have OP habilities or are meele beaststicks are usefull.

And plasma is just undercosted. It is usefull after a whole edition of grav-spam, but it is too usefull. Is the "generalistic" weapon, so it should pay for that privilege.

I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

 Elbows wrote:
I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

Eh? That would have been pretty awful, I think.

It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

The current one, even when overcharged, isn't as strong as a Lascannon.

Plasma is all fun and games till you run into a -1 to hit army.

Plasmas are simply too good. Within 12" it is essentially a Damage 4 weapon. Plasmas, Primaris Psykers and Malefic lords are the primary reasons that bikers and W2 infantry like primaris marines, nobz and terminators are struggling.

I don't think the problem is plasma - the problem is dropping it 9" away from your opponent and guaranteeing that rapid fire volley. Then if they don't die you can do it again.

If you had to run them across the table (in a transport or otherwise) they wouldn't be half as good. But you don't.

Now sure you can try to bubble wrap out to try and prevent them being in 12" of something good but a lot of armies don't have a good bubble wrap unit. If you are shooting guardsmen, cultists or gaunts that's bad. Basic Ork boys too. Move on up however and it quickly moves to being okay to good. If you want to bubble wrap with something like marines or dire avengers then great - I am very happy to shoot them.

Its like Smite spam. There will be better and worse targets - so screening is a thing - but if the smite player is hitting something that is 10+ points per wound (after gear etc) its usually worth it even if they would have preferred to get all the wounds onto a vehicle or character.

Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

Its more than half the price of a Lascannon, with a favorable range of a quarter of a Lascannons range.

Comparison to Melta is interesting. Melta is actually quite good, stat-wise. But the capacity to kill 2 models with the plasma makes it a favorite.

The vehicle explosion rule should be changed to add +1 to the dice roll for each additional wound after its last that the killing blow inflicted. Then Meltas and Lascannons would have improved capacity for collateral damage, which would be both cool and potentially effective.

Of course, something would have to be done to prevent it from being ridiculous in the fight phase. Probably limit it to shooting attacks.

I love plasma myself, but I always have. I don't even own a single model with a grav weapon on it, and I own way too many models lol.

Having said that plasma doesn't bother me as a space marine player. It's actually a good reason to take normal marines instead of primus, or heavy elite. Yes it sucks for terms, but otherwise a squad of 10 Marines don't care if the plasma is overcharged nearly as much as a squad of primus Marines would. Still only killing 1 model a shot at best.

I guess what I mean is plasma is an equalizer in my eyes, it stops me from playing a pure elite force like all bikes, all terms, things like that. But that deep strike shoot plasma thing does suck. Maybe change deep strike rules so if a unit had just entered the field from a deepstrike rule it can only target the closest enemy to it? That way if they're targeting something expensive and elite like it's your own fault for not properly protecting your elite guys with a few normals?

Idk, in the end its not the end of the world to me.

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

Lascannons are still better in a number of regards - Higher Strength, more capacity for damage dealt against single targets, etc. But... it's hard to compare them properly because they're two weapons designed in this edition to do two different things.

pismakron wrote:Plasmas are simply too good. Within 12" it is essentially a Damage 4 weapon. Plasmas, Primaris Psykers and Malefic lords are the primary reasons that bikers and W2 infantry like primaris marines, nobz and terminators are struggling.

To be honest Terminators - especially if you're a Dark Angels player because Tactical Terminators can take at least one Storm Shield in the squad IIRC - can survive a lot of Plasma because of their Invulnerable Save. I mean, their Invulnerable Save helps them against a lot of other targets, but still. Not to mention that if you put a two-wound model/unit in cover, then - assuming that the enemies shooting at them don't Ignore Cover like Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors - they tend to still have a half-decent save against Plasma.

Tyel wrote:I don't think the problem is plasma - the problem is dropping it 9" away from your opponent and guaranteeing that rapid fire volley. Then if they don't die you can do it again.

If you had to run them across the table (in a transport or otherwise) they wouldn't be half as good. But you don't.

Now sure you can try to bubble wrap out to try and prevent them being in 12" of something good but a lot of armies don't have a good bubble wrap unit. If you are shooting guardsmen, cultists or gaunts that's bad. Basic Ork boys too. Move on up however and it quickly moves to being okay to good. If you want to bubble wrap with something like marines or dire avengers then great - I am very happy to shoot them.

Its like Smite spam. There will be better and worse targets - so screening is a thing - but if the smite player is hitting something that is 10+ points per wound (after gear etc) its usually worth it even if they would have preferred to get all the wounds onto a vehicle or character.

A spread out deployment can prevent Deep Striking units from getting behind you or flanking you, but of course means that you may not be able to put as much fire power into the Deep Strikers as you might like to in order to kill them. Conversely, a close deployment can mean that you unload enough fire power into these Deep Striking Plasmas thus denying them more than one Shooting Phase. These strategies of deployment can be maintained through appropriate movement of units, so I don't think the Deep Striking Plasma is as powerful as you seem to make it out to be (though it is still powerful).

RedCommander wrote:Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

Did you have a point? o.0

I'll take plasma all day every day, rule of cool.

But Salamanders really benefit from plasma. Chillin with the Gravis Cap, Lieutenant and Primaris Ancient, Just supercharge a little more and it pays for itself.

I'm gonna try the Redemptor Macro Plasma Incinerator with a Hellblaster squad and the cap/lt/ancient.

Flamers and melta are just too expensive. I wouldn't use as much plasma if it wasn't for 18'' rapid fire (DG) and it being so cheap. Why bother with a 12" weapon with one shot, that is even more expensive than my plasma gun?

And I say that as someone who only overcharges if the unit is prescienced.

I use plasma melta and flamers
Flamers hit the hordes
Tanks and monsters get hit by melta
Plasma deals with everything else.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Flamers and melta are just too expensive. I wouldn't use as much plasma if it wasn't for 18'' rapid fire (DG) and it being so cheap. Why bother with a 12" weapon with one shot, that is even more expensive than my plasma gun?

And I say that as someone who only overcharges if the unit is prescienced.

Well it depends on what you're trying to do. Having Melta is generally better than Plasma against vehicles, the only possible exception to this being Plasma in Rapid Fire Range w/ at least re-rolling 1's. But you pay 75 - 100+ points to even re-roll 1's, assuming all else equal - what's wrong with spending those extra points on the Melta?

As for Flamers - I think Flamers are rather good if you have more than just a couple of them, but only against infantry-heavy lists (particularly hordes). So they're not too expensive, just not a good 'Jack of all Trades' pick.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:I use plasma melta and flamers
Flamers hit the hordes
Tanks and monsters get hit by melta
Plasma deals with everything else.

I agree and would use them the same way, but it is uncommon to need all three.

Plasma weapons really became the mainstay weapon of 8th edition, now that it's cheaper and less suicidal to take it can deal with it's intended targets more reliably

See, and here I have been getting as many flamers as I can to put onto my Marines. Salamander squads. 5 men, 1 with plasma cannon or missile launcher, one srg with combi flamer. Srg helps protect against close combat (no one wants to run into auto hits if they can avoid it) and Plasma cannon pops holes in whatever I want at overcharge with salamander trait for protection. Works rather well. Only lost 2 cannons last game due to "faulty equipment" lol. Totally worth it though.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

It's a good jack of all trades weapon in most scenarios, it's kind of hard not to take it. People figured that out in about 5 seconds of cracking open the books. I know I've been spamming plasma since day one. Granted I spammed plasma ever since I started in 5th, but I've really been spamming it lately.

However, I think I get part of why GW made it so cheap for everyone. Given the weird way modifiers work in this game, it means that plasma is actually really risky to use even with rerolls in some scenarios. Chapter traits for -1 to hit, moving with heavy weapons, night fighting, special abilites, pyskers, etc. all make it where your plasma can kill you sometimes up to 50% of the time or more. As almost every codex has a way to force penalties to hit, I'm starting to see why GW didn't put such a premium on them. I'm actually starting to debate on taking some different weapons because of all the modifiers flying around these days. Plasma will still be my main weapon, but I'm starting to see a point in a couple of squads using melta at least.

Honestly you're noticing more that 8th ed is built around reroll auras, plasma is just a very hard to miss part of it. This is why Guilleman is so insane and why you see so many named characters, most give these rerolls. It's also why the Cadian and Catachan traits for IG are considered so powerful, they're natural rerolls, something most armies don't get without characters.

 RedCommander wrote:
Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

This

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
However, I think I get part of why GW made it so cheap for everyone. Given the weird way modifiers work in this game, it means that plasma is actually really risky to use even with rerolls in some scenarios. Chapter traits for -1 to hit, moving with heavy weapons, night fighting, special abilites, pyskers, etc. all make it where your plasma can kill you sometimes up to 50% of the time or more. As almost every codex has a way to force penalties to hit, I'm starting to see why GW didn't put such a premium on them. I'm actually starting to debate on taking some different weapons because of all the modifiers flying around these days. Plasma will still be my main weapon, but I'm starting to see a point in a couple of squads using melta at least.

I've found that Cover Modifiers to saves is definitely the biggest factor of all those. But funnily for me, plasma is my main weapon only in my Black Templars ( I've started an Iron Warriors army and a Crimson Fists army, so no surprises why I don't need Plasma in those armies ). Lascannons on a high perch as part of Devastator Squads tends to be a good start with or without ignoring cover. Missile Launchers have - in my experience - been a bit hit and miss since you really have to pick your targets and ammo type with them rather well for the ML's to be truly effective. Meltas are weapons I have very little experience with in 8th, but seem like they could be very effective if used correctly.

 IllumiNini wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys, ...

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

Well in 7th, my experience was less so. Chapter Masters, Captains, and HQ Choices overall were less common than they seem to be in 8th. Many more lists also seemed to be based around Psyker HQ's in 7th. What I mean to say is that the meta seems to be shifting because suddenly the Captains and Chapter Masters are significantly more useful because of the nature of re-rolls and thus can be exploited in certain ways. But I don't think they're what makes Marine Armies work, they just seem to give them a (relatively big) push compared to what they used to do in 7th if used correctly.

malamis wrote:Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting.

And the re-rolls... oh god the amount of Overcharged Plasma is real! haha

Yeah captains are much more useful in 8th edition, the nature of Space Marines Captains have changed.in 7th (6th, 5th and proably 3rd and 4th) the captain was simply your uber beat stick. you took it if you wanted a really awesome melee beat stick, and you took librarians if you just wanted a army buffer, GW I don't think was all that happy with that, and wanted the Captain to be the pre-eminant command unit in a Space Marine army. hence the area buff fields. The Captain is now what he should be, your lynchpin HQ, best dep[loyed where the fighting is moist important etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
Yeah captains are much more useful in 8th edition, the nature of Space Marines Captains have changed.in 7th (6th, 5th and proably 3rd and 4th) the captain was simply your uber beat stick. you took it if you wanted a really awesome melee beat stick, and you took librarians if you just wanted a army buffer, GW I don't think was all that happy with that, and wanted the Captain to be the pre-eminant command unit in a Space Marine army. hence the area buff fields. The Captain is now what he should be, your lynchpin HQ, best dep[loyed where the fighting is moist important etc.

Yeah - I used to run a generic Captain in a similar fashion, but more so that I could run two Power Fists in a Crusader Squad and a non-Unwieldy Power Weapon or Melee Relic. But you are right - they were glorified beat sticks w/ invulnerable saves haha. And - especially if that was indeed GW's thinking - the Captains and Chapter Masters now definitely have an incentive to be used in ways that - let's be honest - are more consistent with the lore.

On a related note, I am kinda annoyed that the generic Choas Lord in the CSM only allows the re-rolls of 1's rather than re-rolls of all misses. They are the heads of Chaos Warbands after all, so where are the re-rolls?

In the same place as the Captain's?

Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Khorne army with guns? That's blasphemous, even by Chaos standards.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

You could probably make Plasma Strength 6 normally (similar to the Tau plasma) and Strength 7 when Overcharged (like before).

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Khorne army with guns? That's blasphemous, even by Chaos standards.

Lol, back in 4th there was no real benefits to taking chainaxe and chainsword. Taking the pistol was essentially the same thing as taking the chainsword as far as extra attacks go.

Purifying Tempest wrote:Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Being Strength 4/8 is probably too much of an extreme difference. Being Strength 6/8 or 6/7 (as someone else suggested) is probably better. On the Damage "Issue" I'm fine with it being Damage 2, but the Overcharging Plasma having Damage D2 instead of Damage 2 may be better there. I would have suggested D3, but the potential damage of D3 would not have been leveled out by the random nature of a dice roll.

Purifying Tempest wrote:Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

Depends on the situation. Devastator Squads have Signums and Armorium Cherubs which both it easier to hit. Over the course 5 Turns, Lascannons will usually hit enough times (especially when you use the Armorium Cherub and Signum) to make their cost worth it. You put them on a high perch and they're even better. Add in the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics on top of that and they become really quite good. Not to mention if you're footslogging the Devastators near the Chapter Master, they still have a 75% chance of successfully hitting after the -1 To Hit modifier.

Melta is more difficult than Lascannons because of the range, but not as bad as people seem to think when compared to Plasma. Plasma is simply better as a generic weapon while Melta is best used against vehicles. So again, it's not that Melta is bad, it's just that you can't use the two weapons in the same way thus making comparison more difficult.

Purifying Tempest wrote:And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

To be honest, this is going to be the case regardless of the weapon's profile unless you nerf Plasma to way bellow what it should be. So to be honest, the problem there isn't the profile of Plasma, but how much plasma you can take in your is more the issue - an issue that is not fixable without severe restrictions on how you build your armies. So as far as I'm concerned, this is an issue not worth considering because nothing can be done about it.

Purifying Tempest wrote:With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

Well I don't think Grav-Cannons in 7th Edition were undercosted, but it was definitely an auto-take because of how good it was at doing everything. So far Grav-Cannons were better in 7th than Plasma now appears to be in 8th (especially with the way Save Modifiers work compared with 7th Edition's AP system). I say this because for Plasma's true potential to be unlocked 8th, you need the re-rolls which you need to spend at least 70 points on, and even then it's only in a relatively small radius. For Grav Cannon's in 7th, all you had to do was chuck them in a Rhino as part of a Tactical Squad.

chimeara wrote:I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Not to mention the Plasma Pistols synergise well with with with Chainaxes, especially since having dual Chainaxes does not give you an extra attack for dual wielding them.

Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

whatever you do please don't make the plasma's flat 2D a random dice roll. Half the reason I use it is because it does a flat amount of damage. Less dice rolling for shooting means a lot with how many guns I have to shoot and help speeds up the game a bit. I wish more weapons in this game had a flat damage profile, especially those in the D3 range, most of those could be just 2 D and it'd be fine.

Heck I use autocannons, a pretty terrible weapon for IG in most cases, purely because that flat 2 damage just makes it a lot less headache inducing.

I would imagine this is a small part of why you see it so much, having a dependable weapon that you always know what it will do is a lot more reliable than something that does 1d6 damage for example. The 1d6 weapon can be blatantly superior for the price and I think you would still see people trend toward the flat 2 damage weapon just because you can rely on it to not roll a 1 to damage a land raider or something. Yes, I know, "confirmation bias", "You don't always roll 1's for damage", and "statistically the 1d6 damage weapon will average higher in many cases" but you only need one shooting phase where every one of the 6 lascannons in your army fails to roll above 2 damage and you'll see what I mean.

BaconCatBug wrote:Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

TBH what it wounds on has never been the issue with Plasma. As I said before, it has more to do with the fact that it does a flat 2 Damage. That flat 2 Damage has enormous killing power in terms of targets reserved for things like Lascannons and Melta (bear in mind I still think Lascannons and Melta kill their intended targets better than Plasma can, but Plasma still seems to unnecessarily encroach).

As for S6/S7, I'd say the better way would be to have S6/S8. That way there's actually a disparity between the two profiles.

MrMoustaffa wrote:whatever you do please don't make the plasma's flat 2D a random dice roll. Half the reason I use it is because it does a flat amount of damage. Less dice rolling for shooting means a lot with how many guns I have to shoot and help speeds up the game a bit. I wish more weapons in this game had a flat damage profile, especially those in the D3 range, most of those could be just 2 D and it'd be fine.

Heck I use autocannons, a pretty terrible weapon for IG in most cases, purely because that flat 2 damage just makes it a lot less headache inducing.

I disagree as a general rule. This only become a problem when variability and more dice rolls happens with everything. If we assume that everything else is as it should be and the number of dice rolls in any given game is acceptable, then having Overcharged Plasma do D2 damage instead of a flat 2 isn't a bad thing. Adding more dice rolls in is only a problem if it isn't accounted for in the game as a whole (i.e. either being sure it's not an unnecessary addition of dice rolls or shaving off dice rolls elsewhere).

On a side note, I kinda like the idea of D2 damage because you're taking a risking with going Overcharged (by way of 'Gets Hot') but risks don't always pay off (i.e. you don't get that extra damage you were hoping for as well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I would imagine this is a small part of why you see it so much, having a dependable weapon that you always know what it will do is a lot more reliable than something that does 1d6 damage for example. The 1d6 weapon can be blatantly superior for the price and I think you would still see people trend toward the flat 2 damage weapon just because you can rely on it to not roll a 1 to damage a land raider or something. Yes, I know, "confirmation bias", "You don't always roll 1's for damage", and "statistically the 1d6 damage weapon will average higher in many cases" but you only need one shooting phase where every one of the 6 lascannons in your army fails to roll above 2 damage and you'll see what I mean.

And by the same token, I've seen my fair share of Plasma Weapon wielders die because of Gets Hot in spite of re-rolls, while in other situations player's have made the choice to use Overcharged without re-rolls because the situation their Plasma is in demands it. So there's unreliability everywhere. And what you said makes me think that the flat 2 Damage is yet more reason for Plasma to be an Auto-Take, meaning D2 Damage as opposed to a flat 2 Damage might mitigate that a bit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

Actually, only the Plasmagun is undercosted. The Plasma Pistol is fine, and the Plasma Cannon (And I use a ton of those playing Dark Angels) is very crappy.

 Galas wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

Actually, only the Plasmagun is undercosted. The Plasma Pistol is fine, and the Plasma Cannon (And I use a ton of those playing Dark Angels) is very crappy.

Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

 chimeara wrote:
Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

Yeah - the fact that the Plasma Cannon can do as little as one shot is definitely underwhelming, especially for a Heavy Weapon. Even (D3 + 1) would be better to guarantee a half decent minimum of 2.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

Yeah - the fact that the Plasma Cannon can do as little as one shot is definitely underwhelming, especially for a Heavy Weapon. Even (D3 + 1) would be better to guarantee a half decent minimum of 2.

That would be fair I think.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here I think Illuminini, making the plasma gun a 1d2 damage weapon on overcharge would kill it overnight, it would basically be worthless at that point.

And yes, that was specifically why I mentioned all those fringe cases, because they are fringe cases, but those fringe cases still can lose you a game once in a while. No, I'm not losing every game because all my lascannons roll 1's and 2's for damage, but that one time it does happen, through no real fault of my own, stings pretty bad. Not everything in the game should have random damage values, many factions get a flat 2d weapon and I think it's a good thing as it gives players a solid choice they can count on instead of gambling for big hits with weapons like lascannons. Like I said, I still run autocannons for this very reason, even though mathematically you can easily claim it's one of the worst heavy weapons we have. It still does flat damage and I like knowing that I can count on it to do the same thing every time.

They got a decent points hike in the guard codex for vets, but it could probably go up a little more. I think absolute tops regular squads should be 10, and that's pushing it to account for the Cadian doctrine, and maybe 15 or so for vets. The main issue is many other weapons we have just aren't competitively priced for most of the roles we would take a plasma gun.

Take an infantry squad, I get one special weapon. What would you take?

1)A laughably short range flamer that's just a 1d6 bolter that doesn't even ignore cover?
2)A grenade lancher that is only 2 pts cheaper that statistically isn't much better than a lasgun for hordes and pretty terrible against vehicles because of 1d3 damage and terrible ap
3) a melta gun that while effective, only has a single shot and is shockingly expensive for what it does, and can vary wildly in damage unless you get into suicidally short range for an infantry squad
4)a sniper rifle that doesn't really mesh up with what the average infantry squad needs to do
5)a 24" rapid fire weapon with good AP, good strength, and at a very competitive price that can do everything from pop infantry hiding in cover, kill heavy infantry, fight tanks, fight monstrous creatures, hunt down enemy characters, and even just take out light infantry by completely ignoring their saves.

The plasma is just a good generalist weapon in many instances as it's a "safe" choice. No matter what I fight, the plasma will in some way be useful. The cost can go up with the stats it has, and unless other weapons got significantly cheaper or tweaked, it's just the best weapon. That may be "OP" but I wonder if it's more an issue with the weapons that compete with it as much as it is the plasma itself. Flamers for example really have little purpose in small numbers, grenade launchers are trash, snipers are better in high numbers, and meltas are very short ranged. Plasma can't help the fact that other weapons have little merit in many situations compared to it.

See I don't have much issue with the other weapons in things like command squads, vets, even Stormtroopers I make heavy use of hotshot volley guns. When you can tailor build a squad for a role even something like Grenade Launchers can be made to work with a little effort. But at the end of the day why would I bother with many of these choices when the plasma can do almost all these jobs just as well and excels at things like heavy infantry?

In my opinion the other special weapons should actually act like special weapons. For example the flamer should ignore cover and get additional 1d6 shots against large units. Grenade Launchers should get a barrage type ability, an extra 1d6 vs hordes for frag, or perhaps alternative grenade types. Meltas should be a bit cheaper, etc. Snipers are a good example. They do something no other weapon we have can do, shoot characters. They're also competitively priced. They're not a weapon you spam on everyone but it can absolutely have a place in a list on say some command squad in the back or a vet squad with a lascannon. Basically make it where the other weapons clearly become superior in key roles. Plasma will always be the go to generalist weapon for 8th edition due to how cover and modifiers work, but you can at least make it where other weapons clearly beat it in certain areas. Plasma would then become a generalist weapon you take on basic units for when you're not really sure what you're going to face, while support units and specialists kit themselves out for specific tasks. Bring the other weapons up to speed, and plasma will eventually fall back into place. It's that or radically change how plasma works, which I'm not sure is going to happen but hey, after the commissar change anything could happen.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
We're going to have to agree to disagree here I think Illuminini, making the plasma gun a 1d2 damage weapon on overcharge would kill it overnight, it would basically be worthless at that point.

I agree to agree to disagree. < Insert Leo DiCaprio from Inception saying 'Agree' >

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
And yes, that was specifically why I mentioned all those fringe cases, because they are fringe cases, but those fringe cases still can lose you a game once in a while. No, I'm not losing every game because all my lascannons roll 1's and 2's for damage, but that one time it does happen, through no real fault of my own, stings pretty bad. Not everything in the game should have random damage values, many factions get a flat 2d weapon and I think it's a good thing as it gives players a solid choice they can count on instead of gambling for big hits with weapons like lascannons. Like I said, I still run autocannons for this very reason, even though mathematically you can easily claim it's one of the worst heavy weapons we have. It still does flat damage and I like knowing that I can count on it to do the same thing every time.

Fair call. I'm not opposed to the variability which is why I'm partial to the idea, not to mention my aforementioned reasoning. Plus I don't mind the extra dice rolls (I must be the only user on DakkaDakka to hold this mindset haha). But for me it still comes down to the fact that either the non-Overcharged profile needs a minor nerf to create a disparity between the two profiles (and make it less of an auto-take jack-of-all-trades gun) and/or the Overcharged profile being Damage D2 as opposed to Damage 2 in order to make the undeniably powerful damage output Plasmas currently have less reliable in order to make it more fair.

And on a side note, I'm always bummed when I lose a game because of a lousy shooting phase or I failed some charges, but then I remember these two things:

(1) These are the sorts of things that can make the game interesting and hell - my opponent's ensuing turn might be just as bad dice-roll-wise.

(2) In the lore, the Crimson Fists had enough bad luck to blow up their own Fortress Monastery and still come out on top eventually, so my bad dice rolls are simply a setback I can come back from just like our favourite Ork-Haters

Plus let's be honest - If you have good or at least statistically likely dice roll results every game, a certain level of excitement is from the game.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
They got a decent points hike in the guard codex for vets, but it could probably go up a little more. I think absolute tops regular squads should be 10, and that's pushing it to account for the Cadian doctrine, and maybe 15 or so for vets. The main issue is many other weapons we have just aren't competitively priced for most of the roles we would take a plasma gun.

Take an infantry squad, I get one special weapon. What would you take?

1)A laughably short range flamer that's just a 1d6 bolter that doesn't even ignore cover?
2)A grenade lancher that is only 2 pts cheaper that statistically isn't much better than a lasgun for hordes and pretty terrible against vehicles because of 1d3 damage and terrible ap
3) a melta gun that while effective, only has a single shot and is shockingly expensive for what it does, and can vary wildly in damage unless you get into suicidally short range for an infantry squad
4)a sniper rifle that doesn't really mesh up with what the average infantry squad needs to do
5)a 24" rapid fire weapon with good AP, good strength, and at a very competitive price that can do everything from pop infantry hiding in cover, kill heavy infantry, fight tanks, fight monstrous creatures, hunt down enemy characters, and even just take out light infantry by completely ignoring their saves.

-- I agree: Flamers are underwhelming in 8th Edition, especially since they removed Templates.
-- TBH it doesn't sound terrible, just not as generically good as a Plasma Gun.
-- Melta Weapons are only good in certain situations. Dropping in as part of a Sterguard Squad? Good. Putting one in a Tactical Squad? Not so good. So Melta require much more effort to get right, but are still on a similar level to Plasma Guns.
-- A Sniper Rifle isn't something you just take one or two of in a Squad, though. I would say that Plasma Guns are roughly as good at what they do as Sniper Rifles are at what they do.

Plasma Guns are generally the best option. Flamers or Grenade Launchers may be good options depending on how you've built your list, but not quite as generically good as Plasma Guns. And Sniper Rifles are only good if you use them a particular way (for example - if a Tactical Squad could take a single Sniper Rifle, it wouldn't be worth taking, but a Sniper Rifle on each Scout in a Scout Squad is most certainly worth it), so as a generic weapon, Plasma is better.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
In my opinion the other special weapons should actually act like special weapons.

I agree and disagree. As we've both now said, Flamers are underwhelming and need something extra to be Special. We could go on forever about the what, how and why, but the point is that not all Special Weapons are good (especially not at generically good as Plasma) and thus not all of these Special Weapons are truly special.

"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

MagicJuggler wrote:"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Well you've summed up my entire initial point of this thread pretty well haha.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

Well apart from the investment of Command Points, a good way to think about this that a friend told me is three fold:

(1) How many points was required to do that? Did the Chaos Terminators cost a similar amount to the Baneblade?

-- -- Because if they spent a similar amount points-wise, then not only did the Terminators pay for the points but it also means that it wasn't entirely cheese for the Terminators to be able to do that.

(2) How much of their army's shooting does that represent?

-- -- Because the more shooting that Baneblade absorbed as a portion of the whole, it at least partially paid for itself points-wise while leaving you with units you can answer the destruction of the Baneblade with.

(3) Did you design your list so that you did indeed have other decent sources of damage?

-- -- Because, in this case, if the Baneblade was your only real source of damage, then your list was not very efficient anf you painted a large target on your Baneblade before Turn 1 even began.

Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

 IllumiNini wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Well you've summed up my entire initial point of this thread pretty well haha.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

Well apart from the investment of Command Points, a good way to think about this that a friend told me is three fold:

(1) How many points was required to do that? Did the Chaos Terminators cost a similar amount to the Baneblade?

-- -- Because if they spent a similar amount points-wise, then not only did the Terminators pay for the points but it also means that it wasn't entirely cheese for the Terminators to be able to do that.

(2) How much of their army's shooting does that represent?

-- -- Because the more shooting that Baneblade absorbed as a portion of the whole, it at least partially paid for itself points-wise while leaving you with units you can answer the destruction of the Baneblade with.

(3) Did you design your list so that you did indeed have other decent sources of damage?

-- -- Because, in this case, if the Baneblade was your only real source of damage, then your list was not very efficient anf you painted a large target on your Baneblade before Turn 1 even began.

I don't know if you know me very well, but I am a fluff player and run a Superheavy Tank Company routinely, so the Baneblade alone was not very important.

I actually won the game; just using it as an anecdote of how good Plasma is.

1) I am pretty sure with the Lord included, they did cost a fair amount - the Baneblade came out to 531, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn they came out the same. What's cheesy is not that 500 points killed 500 points; rather, it's that 500 points not equipped to hunt tanks killed 500 points of pure tank. It'd be like if 500 points of Flamers killed a Land Raider - that's just silly. Plasma is too good against tanks, though it is only designed to be a heavy infantry killer.

2) Yes, this wasn't a complaint about the Baneblade or the Terminators; I'm fine with how it went. It's just an anecdote in support of the idea that Plasma is overcapable compared to other weapon options.

3) Yes, I had 2 other superheavy tanks

 sfshilo wrote:
Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

And flamers help against hordes how exactly?

You're getting on average lets say 4 shots. So 2 bolters worth. Note that you then need to wound, which means you're really only wounding say 2/3rds of those shots. Then the guardsmen are going to ignore a 1/3 of those wounds because flak armor gets its save now. Flamers are laughable antihorde weapons. The sole possible exception being Catachans, who needed an order that lets you reroll the number of shots and ignore cover in order to give them a chance at being a viable anti horde weapon. In almost any other situation you're just going to want more lasguns, heck even bolters are going to get more work done over time and don't have a suicidally short range to be used. If I remember right someone did the math and the plasma is actually more effective vs hordes than the flamer is. Flamers are that bad. Heavy flamers are a bit better but you'll notice most guard players actually use them to fight things like space marines, and not as some magical anti guardsman weapon.

It's 8th edition now, flamers just don't work how they used to. If we were talking 7th or something absolutely, bring flamers all day, they'll work great against hordes, but the days of a single flamer being able to hit all 10 models in a squad, ignore their armor, and ignore their cover are gone. Now they're a glorified bolter that never misses with a 1/3rd of the range.

It should be S6/S7 normal/overcharged, if only for fluff reasons. Eldar and their Tau pawns have perfected Plasma technology... and it's S6 for them. So in the past few years, IoM perfected Plasma tech, and then went way beyond even DAoT tech and then past CWE levels? Having non-Overcharged be S6 preserves the fluff of Eldar and Tau relative tech levels, while showing the IoM advancing.

Also, Gets Hot should be on unmodified 1s. Shouldn't be more dangerous to shoot an Alaitoc Ranger or Alpha Legionaire. And a Signum shouldn't make it autopass. If they wanted to make it super serious, make it apply before rerolls, but that would be weird.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know if you know me very well, but I am a fluff player and run a Superheavy Tank Company routinely, so the Baneblade alone was not very important.

Can't say that I know you at all haha, but it's nice to see another fluff player.

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) I am pretty sure with the Lord included, they did cost a fair amount - the Baneblade came out to 531, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn they came out the same. What's cheesy is not that 500 points killed 500 points; rather, it's that 500 points not equipped to hunt tanks killed 500 points of pure tank. It'd be like if 500 points of Flamers killed a Land Raider - that's just silly. Plasma is too good against tanks, though it is only designed to be a heavy infantry killer.

To be honest I think that Plasma being a weapon that is not a weapon you can use to hunt tanks is a bit of a misconception. Especially when you read the fluff about Plasma Weapons as well as look at it from a real-world perspective, the idea that Plasma Weapons can't be tank-hunting weapons is a bit silly. The problem is that the guns specifically designed to be tank hunters like Melta should be better than they are relative to Plasma.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) Yes, this wasn't a complaint about the Baneblade or the Terminators; I'm fine with how it went. It's just an anecdote in support of the idea that Plasma is overcapable compared to other weapon options.

I agree, which is why I think that D2 Damage is something that is worth considering for the Overcharged Profile - it reduces the damage reliability thus making it at least slightly less powerful.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Yes, I had 2 other superheavy tanks

Always good! Get payback! haha

sfshilo wrote:Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Arguable. Very arguable. I'm curious though: How did you come to this conclusion? Because I know Plasma is very good (I mean, that is the core point of this thread), but I don't think it's so good that Melta/Las need Twin-Linked in order to be competitive.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

People are saying that because - as a general rule - Plasma is better than Flamers. When trying to make a generically good list, Plasma is much better than Flamers. That's not to say that Flamers are bad and/or useless, but they're less of a jack-of-all-trades when compared to Plasma.

Bharring wrote:It should be S6/S7 normal/overcharged, if only for fluff reasons. Eldar and their Tau pawns have perfected Plasma technology... and it's S6 for them. So in the past few years, IoM perfected Plasma tech, and then went way beyond even DAoT tech and then past CWE levels? Having non-Overcharged be S6 preserves the fluff of Eldar and Tau relative tech levels, while showing the IoM advancing.

Also, Gets Hot should be on unmodified 1s. Shouldn't be more dangerous to shoot an Alaitoc Ranger or Alpha Legionaire. And a Signum shouldn't make it autopass. If they wanted to make it super serious, make it apply before rerolls, but that would be weird.

TBH having Plasma 'Gets Hot' be unaffected by re-rolls (i.e. you can't re-roll ones) makes sense. I mean, this could be argued both ways in terms of whether or not to allow re-rolls of 1's on Overcharged Plasma, but think about it: They're not un-jamming a rifle, the gun blew up in their face, which means that they should really have an opportunity to hit after that.

Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

I will say I fully agree that GW needs to introduce the "natural" roll of '1', etc. That would solve a tremendous amount of the plasma silliness with regards to rules (oh no, it's night outside and you're flying so your plasma is...more likely to explode, etc.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

That is entirely the point of overcharging. You shouldn't be freely doling out Strength 8 shots with zero risk, etc. The guns way too cheap for that. So you run it normal all game until something is on the line which is worth the risk of losing that marine.

In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

Elbows wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

That is entirely the point of overcharging. You shouldn't be freely doling out Strength 8 shots with zero risk, etc. The guns way too cheap for that. So you run it normal all game until something is on the line which is worth the risk of losing that marine.

This! Arachnofiend - One of the problems with Plasma is the ability to make Overcharging so safe for Plasma. Yes you pay points for it in the form of a HQ Choice or something along those lines, but in those situations the other unit/model would pay for itself in re-rolls alone not to mention what the unit/model can do itself, not to mention that Overcharging should not be safe for Plasma. Overcharging should always have a reasonably high risk, otherwise the Overcharged Profile might as well be the only Profile for Plasma.

 Elbows wrote:
I will say I fully agree that GW needs to introduce the "natural" roll of '1', etc. That would solve a tremendous amount of the plasma silliness with regards to rules (oh no, it's night outside and you're flying so your plasma is...more likely to explode, etc.)

Oh no, I'm having a harder time seeing/hitting my target, it's moving so fast - I need to fire more shots now, and wait, what's that? My plasma gun is overheating easier because I'm using it more?

Reply by: Martel732 - click to view full reply 

11860

Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 00:56:43

Post by: Martel732

Only if overcharging were changed to a mortal wound on a failed toughness test.

Reply by: Darsath - click to view full reply 

115943

Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 01:11:05

Post by: Darsath

Overcharging really shouldn't be the norm for firing plasma weaponry. If it were, they could just reduce the strength values to 6 and 7.

Reply by: Martel732 - click to view full reply 

11860

Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 01:12:55

Post by: Martel732

To take away S8 plasma, you'd have to make melta not suck.

Reply by: Zid - click to view full reply 

17376

Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 02:39:57

Post by: Zid

I like the changes to plasma. While Meltas are less common, in 5th (my last edition) EVERYTHING had Meltas that could carry it. Min-Maxing units just for meltas was common, if you could pack a multimelta on a vehicle, it was getting it. Plasma was rare unless it was on a unit with FnP, and even then, it was still rare because killing vehicles > killing MC's or elite chars.

I think the changes were good. Oh, and the changes to combi weapons from 5th to now... you mean I can shoot more than once????

Reply by: vaklor4 - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 02:49:45

Post by: vaklor4

If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

Reply by: NH Gunsmith - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 03:37:08

Post by: NH Gunsmith

 vaklor4 wrote:
If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

Eh, besides Overwatch, I don't remember the last time I have used both profiles of a Combi-Plasma in the shooting phase. It is way more important to me that the Plasma shots hit, versus maybe getting an additional Bolter hit that I essentially just pretend the Bolter side doesn't exist. If I could take normal Plasma Guns on all of my Tac Squad Sergeants to save even just a few more points, I would do it all day every day.

Reply by: MrMoustaffa - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 04:17:57

Post by: MrMoustaffa

 Arachnofiend wrote:
In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

to say nothing of the 11pt guardsman with a plasma gun in a regular infantry squad.

Then again IG has always been notorious for not caring about if our guys die to plasma, so in reality not much would change there. I spammed lots of plasma in 5th, 6th, and 7th, and lost guys to it all the time but felt that taking it was always worth the risk. Even if a 1 was just straight up "no saves, you're dead" that's really only 33% worse than what I was dealing with in previous editions since IG armor saves are so terrible.

Reply by: IllumiNini - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 05:05:54

Post by: IllumiNini

Arachnofiend wrote:In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

From my understanding, the cheaper armies such as Imperial Guard have access to more Plasma Guns for a less points compare to an MEQ army for example. And if you are going to get petty about a model dying to Overcharged Plasma, then that indicates to me a few things (and feel free to correct me on these things, they're just what seem to me to be buried beneath what you've said so far):

-- You think that Overcharged Plasma should be without risk (or at least minimal risk), which is silly. The choice to risk Overcharging Plasma should not be dependent model's cost. If it is, then I think there's something fundamentally wrong with how you go about equipping Plasma in your lists.

Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

-- The above quote from you is also false. If there was a reward worth trying for like taking the last two wounds off your opponent's Land Raider or Warlord, then you can bet your asst someone will take the 1/6 chance of their 32 Plague Marine dying in order to do that. If the Plague Marine was just trying to thin out a 30-strong unit of Ork Boyz, then of course there's no point in Overcharging and risking death.

-- I also thoroughly disagree with the idea that it's completely worthless without re-rolls. Take a Space Marine with a Plasma Gun and no re-rolls: You have a 16.67% chance of dying, 16.67% chance of the shot doing nothing, and a 66.67% chance of the gun hitting. 16.67% Chance of Dying vs 66.67% Chance of Hitting? I'd hardly call that useless. Risky? Yes, but definitely not useless.

-- Finally, if you require re-rolls in order to use Overcharged Plasma, then you either need to use less Plasma or realise two things: Overcharging Plasma should be risky - It's why the Get's Hot rule is there; and Overcharging Plasma can be useful regardless of any given model's points cost.

Martel732 wrote:To take away S8 plasma, you'd have to make melta not suck.

Melta doesn't suck. It's just harder to use and their area of expertise has been encroached on by re-rolling Plasma.

vaklor4 wrote:If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

TBH Plasma Guns are better because they're cheaper. As NH GunsmithMade essentially said, the Bolter Profile is not very useful in a Combi-Plasma. Combine this with the standard Plasma Gun profile (which is still stronger than the Bolter profile) doesn't have the Gets Hot rule and you might as well just have a Plasma Gun.

Reply by: tneva82 - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 07:45:08

Post by: tneva82

fe40k wrote:
Oh no, I'm having a harder time seeing/hitting my target, it's moving so fast - I need to fire more shots now, and wait, what's that? My plasma gun is overheating easier because I'm using it more?

Except you are not shooting it more. You are just hitting less often.

Reply by: Bremon - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/09 21:30:19

Post by: Bremon

“I’m shooting it more!” is a silly use of imagination to justify questionable abstractions in the rules and this era of re-roll order of operations. I use enough imagination pushing painted plastic men around a table, I don’t need to use it as an excuse for GWs stupidity.

If you were shooting it more, you’d get more shots.

Reply by: AaronWilson - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 08:37:34

Post by: AaronWilson

Plasma is used a lot as it's versatile and efficient for points.

Reply by: FrozenDwarf - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 11:37:53

Post by: FrozenDwarf

Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

Reply by: A Town Called Malus - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 11:48:32

Post by: A Town Called Malus

 vipoid wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

Eh? That would have been pretty awful, I think.

That normal profile is only one point of AP worse than the Tau Plasma rifle and we don't have an overcharged statline to fall back on.

Reply by: Sgt. Cortez - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 13:14:08

Post by: Sgt. Cortez

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I do. I only use overcharge when the unit has been prescienced. And since DG can't do that anymore, I don't overcharge. Also, most infantry units have 1wound anyway and the ap doesn't improve, I don't need to overcharge.

Reply by: chimeara - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 15:55:42

Post by: chimeara

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

So far I've only done it once out of 6 games.

Reply by: Racerguy180 - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 18:34:06

Post by: Racerguy180

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I've only overcharged 3 times out of 14 or so games I've played in 8th so far.

I like to think it's not how much you overcharge, more that you can/have option.

Reply by: Martel732 - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 18:35:16

Post by: Martel732

The game I overloaded the most was against primaris, because it's dumb not to.

Reply by: daedalus - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 19:07:08

Post by: daedalus

How I would fix plasma: A short story.

Normal firing:
Gets Hot. On a roll of a 1 to hit, this model suffers a wound. Armor saves may be made against this wound.

There. Reintroduces the sense of risk into firing it either way, and it inheriently scales the sense of risk appropriately in such a way that cheaper plasma delivery platforms (guardsmen / scions) are penalized in an appropriately greater means compared to elite/expensive options (space marines, terminators, vehicles), and while it adds an extra step, that step is not so cumbersome as to meaningfully drag the game down. Also makes other weapons somewhat more appealing without completely rendering plasma useless. It'll never happen.

Reply by: Infantryman - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 19:20:28

Post by: Infantryman

 daedalus wrote:
How I would fix plasma: A short story.

Normal firing:
Gets Hot. On a roll of a 1 to hit, this model suffers a wound. Armor saves may be made against this wound.

There. Reintroduces the sense of risk into firing it either way, and it inheriently scales the sense of risk appropriately in such a way that cheaper plasma delivery platforms (guardsmen / scions) are penalized in an appropriately greater means compared to elite/expensive options (space marines, terminators, vehicles), and while it adds an extra step, that step is not so cumbersome as to meaningfully drag the game down. Also makes other weapons somewhat more appealing without completely rendering plasma useless. It'll never happen.

Reading this thread made me go back and read the entry in the AM codex - it's really weird that the weapon doesn't do this normally anymore. That was plasma's thing - a lot of power, at the risk of killing the user.

What on earth were they thinking?

M.

Reply by: Galef - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/10 19:58:21

Post by: Galef

I think the biggest reason you see players overcharging is because of the Strength difference is crucial. Going for S7 to S8 means wounding most infantry goes from 3+ to 2+ and many vehicle go from 4+ to 3+.
The fact that reroll 1 Auras are everywhere helps too.

If you took it down to 6/7, or made the overcharge do a single moral wound rather than D2, it might not be so meta dominating.

-

Reply by: IllumiNini - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 00:00:27

Post by: IllumiNini

Infantryman wrote:Reading this thread made me go back and read the entry in the AM codex - it's really weird that the weapon doesn't do this normally anymore. That was plasma's thing - a lot of power, at the risk of killing the user.

What on earth were they thinking?

I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

Galef wrote:I think the biggest reason you see players overcharging is because of the Strength difference is crucial. Going for S7 to S8 means wounding most infantry goes from 3+ to 2+ and many vehicle go from 4+ to 3+.

The fact that reroll 1 Auras are everywhere helps too.

I agree - crossing that threshold is important, but mainly because there's a lot of T4 Infantry and T7/T8 Vehicles.

Reply by: Raichase - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 00:24:13

Post by: Raichase

 IllumiNini wrote:
I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

I do too - for decades the fluff has stated that plasma weapons were from a different age of technology, and the ability to manufacture them has mostly been lost. Such weapons are incredibly powerful (like their cousin, the meltagun), but with a longer range. I'm assuming that if they all exploded as often as they used to do with the old "get's hot" rule... then how the heck did so many survive to the present timeline? The idea that they can be used as a normal gun (assuming the chap using it has the appropriate training) in a "safe mode" gels well with this, because obviously you'd be giving it to the right warrior to use it. Of course, he/she also knows how to overcharge the weapon, putting additional strain on the cooling system so as to inflict more damage, but at risk of the gun going up in a supernova of plasma in their hands.

Similar to the old assault cannon rules - up to 3 sustained fire dice (iirc), but if you rolled three "jam" results, the assault cannon exploded and killed the user (or tore the arm off the dreadnought). Increased reward (slaughtering more and more enemies) comes at a trade off - as the weapon runs hotter, there's that chance that it will all end in tears.

Reply by: Infantryman - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 00:50:16

Post by: Infantryman

Maybe the originals didn't explode, but now age has caught up with them?

Either way, if they were a truly lost technology you'd think the MA couldn't take them in squads, yeah?

M.

Reply by: MrMoustaffa - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 03:29:59

Post by: MrMoustaffa

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I overcharge mine 99% of the time thanks to the meta I play in. It's always space marines or equivalent T4 or a vehicle at T7/8 where the overcharge bumps it up a level.

If I couldn't overcharge it I would still make heavy use of the weapon, it's still a good value for guard at the points we pay, but it would absolutely put emphasis back onto taking melta and make that our premier anti armor/monster weapon.

I like the overcharge statline, but it's probably the biggest issue with balance for sure. It just makes it so incredibly helpful for a guard player with access to orders or who just doesn't care if his guys die in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Raichase wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

I do too - for decades the fluff has stated that plasma weapons were from a different age of technology, and the ability to manufacture them has mostly been lost. Such weapons are incredibly powerful (like their cousin, the meltagun), but with a longer range. I'm assuming that if they all exploded as often as they used to do with the old "get's hot" rule... then how the heck did so many survive to the present timeline? The idea that they can be used as a normal gun (assuming the chap using it has the appropriate training) in a "safe mode" gels well with this, because obviously you'd be giving it to the right warrior to use it. Of course, he/she also knows how to overcharge the weapon, putting additional strain on the cooling system so as to inflict more damage, but at risk of the gun going up in a supernova of plasma in their hands.

Similar to the old assault cannon rules - up to 3 sustained fire dice (iirc), but if you rolled three "jam" results, the assault cannon exploded and killed the user (or tore the arm off the dreadnought). Increased reward (slaughtering more and more enemies) comes at a trade off - as the weapon runs hotter, there's that chance that it will all end in tears.

Apparently the guns don't actually explode, the "Gets hot" we're used to is just the venting procedure for when it's dangerously overloaded. If it didn't have that venting system it would go critical and cause even more damage. Can't remember where I read that though.

Reply by: Raichase - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 05:18:40

Post by: Raichase

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Apparently the guns don't actually explode, the "Gets hot" we're used to is just the venting procedure for when it's dangerously overloaded. If it didn't have that venting system it would go critical and cause even more damage. Can't remember where I read that though.

Well, that explains how so many have survived into the present day when their bearers have not! I actually painted the gloves of my one guardsman with plasma gun up as oven mitts about ten years ago. Every game the joker would managed to overheat and kill himself, typically without denting anything on the opposite side of the table...

Reply by: Infantryman - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 05:44:25

Post by: Infantryman

That would explain the Armor Save, ha!

Love the oven mitt idea; back when I ran Plasma in my old Cadian force, I had the same experience with inability to actually get a kill before it goes off and cooks the guy. I think I managed to get a Gun Drone once.

M.

Reply by: Raichase - click to view full reply 

99950

Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 06:24:57

Post by: Raichase

 Infantryman wrote:
I think I managed to get a Gun Drone once.

I'm sure you felt that justified the initial investment in points!

Reply by: MrMoustaffa - click to view full reply 

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Plasma Meta? @ 2017/11/11 06:26:28

Post by: MrMoustaffa

Yeah if you look at the old 3rd ed rulebook it has a diagram on the old style plasma guns the metal cadians and the like would have, aka the really round tipped ones. Those holes you see at the muzzle of the plasma gun are the vents and apparently, they can vent backwards if they build up too much heat. In addition, those coils on top heat up as well, hence why people paint them that blue/white color. Obviously anything that hot wouldn't be something you want to put your face near.

I could easily see some of the get's hot deaths being something as simple as the gun kicked back a bit more than the wielder intended and smacking into their face.

But I'm dragging us into lore, the plasma gun has some pretty wonky and conflicting stuff written about it, even by 40k terms.