Sorry to see Sableclaw go, although I am curious as to why. There is a model for it.
Super Psyched to see those rumors for Lion'el Johnson. He looks like a super-buffer for Dark Angels. Add a standard of Devastation and they will rock the shooting phase. not to mention his ability to throw out mortal wounds in both shooting and melee.
I think it's fake or at least not entirely accurate, it's too rough. Like upgrading to a command squad when the command squad options already exist, or a stratagem to ignore mortal wounds from plasma overheat... which causes instant death rather than mortals. The warlord trait to give 5+ fnp to him and all units within 9" is blatantly OP, while Lion giving +3 cp AND refunding cp on a 4+ just seems like wishlisting.
Too wishlisty in my opinion. Looks like guessing based on the marine book with some faction bias thrown in. That FNP warlord trait would be the best in the game by quite a margin.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think it's fake or at least not entirely accurate, it's too rough. Like upgrading to a command squad when the command squad options already exist, or a stratagem to ignore mortal wounds from plasma overheat... which causes instant death rather than mortals. The warlord trait to give 5+ fnp to him and all units within 9" is blatantly OP, while Lion giving +3 cp AND refunding cp on a 4+ just seems like wishlisting.
I wish this to be fake. This is a hell of a ton of OP stuff that I don't want for my army. I want my army to be balanced and fun, this is just straight out OP.
I'm pretty sure The Lion is gonna be OP. But I'll prefer him to be Mortarion OP rather tan Guilliman or Magnus OP.
Like I mentioned in the other thread, gonna take a grain of salt with this. Some of this might be legitimate while others might be just wishlisting that the rumormonger threw in, in some hopes that GW will see it and throw it in for some reason.
Having The Lion being released is not completely out of the question, but it would be a surprise since all of the primarchs were leaked months before they were officially announced if I remember.
Would be cool but feels wrong. Double shooting and reroll hit and wound....not so much. They had time on this one since Gulliman and won't make that mistake again. Not only that but he gets Gulliman buffs but also invul saves buff for his boys. Meh....
Also I feel primarch releases are generally meant for fluff advancement t at this point. So I'm not sure how the lion fits. I think this is another gk/admech update with nothing much to show.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The real giveaway is that they would get the Overwatch buff AND a Commisar buff.
Iyanden got the Commissar buff and Valhallan buff, so...it's not that unbelievable.
What makes it extremely sketchy to me is the Lion.
Ilyaden has the Commisar buff, not something else relevant to the discussion. So the Marines would get that AND an Overwatch bonus.
No it's bunk.
Iyanden has two separate perks going on.
Why do you think it would be so strange for Dark Angels to get two perks?
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Niexist wrote: plus he's dead, dead primarchs don't get to come back.
He's actually not dead. He's at the center of the Rock, tended to strictly by the Watchers in the Dark. Last mention was that he's actually showing signs that he might wake up.
The dead Loyalist Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Dorn with Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, Russ, and Lion being MIA now that Guilliman's awake.
Yeah, this is not happening. Too far out nowadays. When's the last time we had a long range (more than early preview copy time frame) rumor that came true?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The real giveaway is that they would get the Overwatch buff AND a Commisar buff.
Iyanden got the Commissar buff and Valhallan buff, so...it's not that unbelievable.
What makes it extremely sketchy to me is the Lion.
Ilyaden has the Commisar buff, not something else relevant to the discussion. So the Marines would get that AND an Overwatch bonus.
No it's bunk.
Iyanden has two separate perks going on.
Why do you think it would be so strange for Dark Angels to get two perks?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niexist wrote: plus he's dead, dead primarchs don't get to come back.
He's actually not dead. He's at the center of the Rock, tended to strictly by the Watchers in the Dark. Last mention was that he's actually showing signs that he might wake up.
The dead Loyalist Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Dorn with Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, Russ, and Lion being MIA now that Guilliman's awake.
Actually according to the latest fluff he is dead, this is taken from his 1d4chan article.
"The author Gav Thorpe said in a recent interview that "the Lion is dead" which is at odds with fluff given in codices and Luther's own ravings, though that statement was not unequivocal, as the answer given in the interview was specifically with how 40k Dark Angels deal with various layers of revelation within the circles of the Chapter. So the Lion's "death at the hands of Horus" and that "Horus blew up Caliban" are the first thing that Dark Angels have to come to terms with, but eventually find out that they had been lied to and that knowledge is specifically withheld from them to let them be good space Marines "here and now" rather than thinking about the existential problems of the past. So the Lion's "death" is still as uncertain as ever.
The idea that the Lion is actually dead and gone is unfortunately backed up by "The Eye of Ezekiel" that suggests that the dying Lion gave Cypher a final important mission to complete before he died."
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The real giveaway is that they would get the Overwatch buff AND a Commisar buff.
Iyanden got the Commissar buff and Valhallan buff, so...it's not that unbelievable.
What makes it extremely sketchy to me is the Lion.
Ilyaden has the Commisar buff, not something else relevant to the discussion. So the Marines would get that AND an Overwatch bonus.
No it's bunk.
Iyanden has two separate perks going on.
Why do you think it would be so strange for Dark Angels to get two perks?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niexist wrote: plus he's dead, dead primarchs don't get to come back.
He's actually not dead. He's at the center of the Rock, tended to strictly by the Watchers in the Dark. Last mention was that he's actually showing signs that he might wake up.
The dead Loyalist Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Dorn with Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, Russ, and Lion being MIA now that Guilliman's awake.
It's a powerful bonus with another powerful bonus. Look at the previous Codices with how they stack everything. AdMech, Guard, and Eldar have these things as separate entities. Nothing is combined like that is how I meant it.
100% fake. You're telling me that a free relic lets all Dark Angels within 9" shoot twice every Shooting phase? You're telling me there's a Warlord Trait that gives all Dark Angels within 9" a 5+ Feel No Pain? You're telling me the Lion is Guilliman+1 with the potential to be combined with a 9" bubble of shooting twice?
Yeah, no. Not even worth the time it took to write.
Yeah, this is looking like BS. Although, can you imagine the carnage it would cause to have a lump of maxed-out Hellblasters firing twice with overloaded shots with rerolls to hit? That could wipe the floor with most lists, whether they be horde or massed armor.
Joe March, the guy who runs the 40kDA facebook page, and the Inner Circle Facebook page likes trolling people with these.
Last time he did it, it started on Fb, blew up, got debunked (by him, even), hit here, got debunked, hit Spikeybits, got debunked again, hit here again, got debunked, hit Taco Bell of Lost Souls (and farts), got debunked, and still kept circling.
Can we maybe lock this down before that happens...again?
Actually according to the latest fluff he is dead, this is taken from his 1d4chan article.
"The author Gav Thorpe said in a recent interview that "the Lion is dead" which is at odds with fluff given in codices and Luther's own ravings, though that statement was not unequivocal, as the answer given in the interview was specifically with how 40k Dark Angels deal with various layers of revelation within the circles of the Chapter. So the Lion's "death at the hands of Horus" and that "Horus blew up Caliban" are the first thing that Dark Angels have to come to terms with, but eventually find out that they had been lied to and that knowledge is specifically withheld from them to let them be good space Marines "here and now" rather than thinking about the existential problems of the past. So the Lion's "death" is still as uncertain as ever.
The idea that the Lion is actually dead and gone is unfortunately backed up by "The Eye of Ezekiel" that suggests that the dying Lion gave Cypher a final important mission to complete before he died."
Well if so that's gonna piss off a tonne of players and it contradicts the general known fluff of the lion is asleep on the rock.
Another reason to debunk the rumours is the Lion's weapons, Hope and Despair. While they are weapons that he 100% uses during the Heresy, Despair is listed as a ranged weapon (with a profile pretty close to a plasma weapon) when it is explicitly a sword in 30k (Hope and Despair are a pair of blades that he uses against Konrad Curze in their duel on Tsagualsa)
Arachnofiend wrote: The Lion being there pretty much proves this is fake. If he was going to be released we'd already know about it.
Like how we knew so much about the Death Guard release, right?
Nah, GW have gotten rather good at springing surprises. To be frank the DG release was literally smoke and mirrors until stuff was actually released. We knew more about the Primaris stuff months in advance than we did about anything from the DG release.
Arachnofiend wrote: The Lion being there pretty much proves this is fake. If he was going to be released we'd already know about it.
Like how we knew so much about the Death Guard release, right?
Nah, GW have gotten rather good at springing surprises. To be frank the DG release was literally smoke and mirrors until stuff was actually released. We knew more about the Primaris stuff months in advance than we did about anything from the DG release.
Wut?
Death Guard Announcement Trailer (including Mortarion-Scythe-Teaser) was around March. There were literally fake rumours on BolS & Co. (i.e. speculations post-GW announcement) that Death Guard would be the last 7th Ed. Release before the actual 8th Edition drop. Death Guard was certainly known before people knew about Primaris or Guilliman-Super-Marines, which was much more speculation, smoke and mirrors.
Either way. All Gathering Storm books (especially the one with Guilliman coming back), Death Guard + Mortarion and Primaris have gotten the ~2 month notice with more or less cryptic teaser trailer treatment. I find it unlikely GW would present a YouTube teaser for Shadespire Skaven, but not another Primarch. Not absolutely impossible, but unlikely.
Buckybits wrote: Joe March, the guy who runs the 40kDA facebook page, and the Inner Circle Facebook page likes trolling people with these.
Last time he did it, it started on Fb, blew up, got debunked (by him, even), hit here, got debunked, hit Spikeybits, got debunked again, hit here again, got debunked, hit Taco Bell of Lost Souls (and farts), got debunked, and still kept circling.
Can we maybe lock this down before that happens...again?
-John
This. So much this.
While Joe did not write these up ( he told me so), I do not believe one second that these rumours are anything than utter and pure bollocks.
Besides that, we didnt have leaks as detailed as this in the entirety of 8th since GW cracked down on their leaks.
And then to have such detailed leaks on the day the codex is announced?
it smells more fishy than a rotten blue whale on the coast of Fish Island in Fishnobia. Where the second export besides smelly fish is salt. Loads and loads and LOADS of salt.
I'd bet a considerable sum of money on the fakeness of those "leaks"
Grim Resolve confers basivally mmunity to morale?
DS WITHIN 9", almost guaranteeing a charge for power fisting, storm boltering Terminators?
These standards with character rules?
Eh, the deep strike thing I could actually see happening, as a high CP stratagem. Especially since it would have to involve a second unit (ravenwing) getting there without the benefit of deep strike. It is literally the thing the two wings together are most famous for; the bikers hunting the quarry and bringing terminators down right on top of them.
And it’s not like DS within 9" is unprecedented after all; Mawlocs can get to 1" without any assistants or stratagems at all.
That said, I reckon even if it does turn out to be a thing it would be more monkeys and typewriters than any level of actual informed rumour-slinging. The post taken as a whole is utter junk.
As much as I would love to see the return of the Lion, I just think the two Angel codexes will be book only, no new models. They will already have Primaris options added to the books, so I don't expect anything else. The return of the lion would be such a big story arc that there is no way it's just snuck in there. The caveat to this is if we here something cryptic after the Tyranid book drops next week.
I'm thinking the only thing we will see with the DA book is a solo Cypher release. The book will have to address the time jump of 8th edition and the reveal of Cypher as a major imperial player. I don't see Cypher staying out of the DA book.
It seems odd for GW to hit the Christmas season riding another release that amounts to just a pair of codexes and some card packs but that is likely all I imagine them doing.
About Ferrus Manus being dead, he is supposedly being cloned over and over again by Fulgrim. He might be dead but he also has a plot hole that could see him rescued and restored to the imperium.
One thing to remember, however, is that the Lion image earlier this year from the rumour mill has still not been solved, so to say we haven't seen "anything" might be disingenuous. This could certainly be part of a Lion model.
Caederes wrote: 100% fake. You're telling me that a free relic lets all Dark Angels within 9" shoot twice every Shooting phase? You're telling me there's a Warlord Trait that gives all Dark Angels within 9" a 5+ Feel No Pain? You're telling me the Lion is Guilliman+1 with the potential to be combined with a 9" bubble of shooting twice?
Yeah, no. Not even worth the time it took to write.
The Lion rumor is definitely false - this is coming from a long time Dark Angels player. There aren't nearly enough new models/units to drop for DA currently, and we can safely say GW is not going to do a solo drop of a primarch.
As for the old sacred banners, this is what truly separated DA's and other astartes in 6th ed. I can't see why these relics can be reincluded with the upcoming codex. The point cost hasn't been released, so technically we can't claim them being free - it might cost +50 points so we might be looking at 160~200 pt banner carrier. At which point, one would argue, is the banner worth a named character or almost a land raider?
As for the plasma strategem, plasma weaponry has been DA's thing since 3rd ed. This fluff point never has been addressed up until when our terminator squad finally got a plasma cannon arm after +15 years. Again, I can't see why plasmas can once again be a thing for DA's.
Instead of Lion, what DA needs is access to generic captains for ravenwing & deathwing. DA's re-roll auras are only available in forms of a few named characters who can only be taken once, where as other astartes have access to lot more named characters and/or HQ's with re-roll auras.
If the rumours are true then it could be an early play test version of the rules so I'd expect some of the wilder stuff to be reined in. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one Primarch before Christmas as it would make sense as another big Christmas release. With that in mind a 1000 to 1 shot of both the Angel and the Lion in their new codexes.
skchsan wrote: There aren't nearly enough new models/units to drop for DA currently, and we can safely say GW is not going to do a solo drop of a primarch.
There isn't? You know already what units GW might come up with? Pair of new character models ala Guillimann and done.
Arachnofiend wrote: The Lion being there pretty much proves this is fake. If he was going to be released we'd already know about it.
We didn't find out about Magnus until November 11th. Meaning they can still pull a loyalist out of their hat with another "look what we found in the dumpster" video.
Caederes wrote: 100% fake. You're telling me that a free relic lets all Dark Angels within 9" shoot twice every Shooting phase? You're telling me there's a Warlord Trait that gives all Dark Angels within 9" a 5+ Feel No Pain? You're telling me the Lion is Guilliman+1 with the potential to be combined with a 9" bubble of shooting twice?
Yeah, no. Not even worth the time it took to write.
The Lion rumor is definitely false - this is coming from a long time Dark Angels player. There aren't nearly enough new models/units to drop for DA currently, and we can safely say GW is not going to do a solo drop of a primarch.
As for the old sacred banners, this is what truly separated DA's and other astartes in 6th ed. I can't see why these relics can be reincluded with the upcoming codex. The point cost hasn't been released, so technically we can't claim them being free - it might cost +50 points so we might be looking at 160~200 pt banner carrier. At which point, one would argue, is the banner worth a named character or almost a land raider?
As for the plasma strategem, plasma weaponry has been DA's thing since 3rd ed. This fluff point never has been addressed up until when our terminator squad finally got a plasma cannon arm after +15 years. Again, I can't see why plasmas can once again be a thing for DA's.
Instead of Lion, what DA needs is access to generic captains for ravenwing & deathwing. DA's re-roll auras are only available in forms of a few named characters who can only be taken once, where as other astartes have access to lot more named characters and/or HQ's with re-roll auras.
Who was the person at GW who used to do all the reveals? He had a beard / moustache, he had a mohawk at times, he used to dig around in the trash...
Can't remember. Anyways he's gone. Their social media has being going downhill and most of the advance announcements we get are from the community site.
If they are planning to release a model for the Lion, it would be best to do it with the release of the Codex. Can't write this off for making sense.
techsoldaten wrote: Who was the person at GW who used to do all the reveals? He had a beard / moustache, he had a mohawk at times, he used to dig around in the trash...
techsoldaten wrote: Who was the person at GW who used to do all the reveals? He had a beard / moustache, he had a mohawk at times, he used to dig around in the trash...
Can't remember. Anyways he's gone.
Oh yeah?
Dang. I liked that guy. Seemed genuinely funny.
He is. He's doing his own thing now, I think it's called "The Honest Wargamer" or something like that.
techsoldaten wrote: Who was the person at GW who used to do all the reveals? He had a beard / moustache, he had a mohawk at times, he used to dig around in the trash...
Can't remember. Anyways he's gone.
Oh yeah?
Dang. I liked that guy. Seemed genuinely funny.
He is. He's doing his own thing now, I think it's called "The Honest Wargamer" or something like that.
GW let his contract run out.
I guess they did not enjoy the greater awareness and satisfaction that came through a knowledgeable and charismatic host speaking to the company's virtues.
I guess they did not enjoy the greater awareness and satisfaction that came through a knowledgeable and charismatic host speaking to the company's virtues.
techsoldaten wrote: Who was the person at GW who used to do all the reveals? He had a beard / moustache, he had a mohawk at times, he used to dig around in the trash...
Can't remember. Anyways he's gone.
Oh yeah?
Dang. I liked that guy. Seemed genuinely funny.
He is. He's doing his own thing now, I think it's called "The Honest Wargamer" or something like that.
GW let his contract run out.
I guess they did not enjoy the greater awareness and satisfaction that came through a knowledgeable and charismatic host speaking to the company's virtues.
Did he say that? I thought he quit to do his own thing.
Actually according to the latest fluff he is dead, this is taken from his 1d4chan article.
"The author Gav Thorpe said in a recent interview that "the Lion is dead" which is at odds with fluff given in codices and Luther's own ravings, though that statement was not unequivocal, as the answer given in the interview was specifically with how 40k Dark Angels deal with various layers of revelation within the circles of the Chapter. So the Lion's "death at the hands of Horus" and that "Horus blew up Caliban" are the first thing that Dark Angels have to come to terms with, but eventually find out that they had been lied to and that knowledge is specifically withheld from them to let them be good space Marines "here and now" rather than thinking about the existential problems of the past. So the Lion's "death" is still as uncertain as ever.
The idea that the Lion is actually dead and gone is unfortunately backed up by "The Eye of Ezekiel" that suggests that the dying Lion gave Cypher a final important mission to complete before he died."
Well if so that's gonna piss off a tonne of players and it contradicts the general known fluff of the lion is asleep on the rock.
What any author says about the fluff is irrelevant to GW's marketing. If they decide to bring the Lion back they will. I doubt we will see him because he would likely be getting leaked already not because of anything Gav says.
I had a theory awhile ago that Cypher was actually a psychic manifestation of the Lion while his body was comatose.
Which explains why he pops up and disappears all over the place, cannot really be captured, has the Lions sword, and often seems to lead the DA on a merry chase where they end up where they would be most needed anyway.
No Hooded head? This Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little dissapointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Couldn't the secrecy issue be resolved by politely but firmly telling the Indomitus crusade reinforcements they're a sucesssor chapter, and then any Dark Angels proper primaris can be made on their own terms?
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? This Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little dissapointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
The hoods are part of the tabard and the tabards were a symbol of being inducted into the mysteries of the Chapter at large.
It's a big deal that Zakariah even has one given the intimation that the Dark Angels don't trust the Primaris.
If anyone should have TarTaros or Cataphractii armor it is Dark Angles. As the First Marine chapter, they have all the old-school stuff. They are also THE terminator chapter. One of the old codex's states that the current Dark Angels Chapter retained all of the terminator armor from the old Legion......so that's A LOT of suits.
Apparently, in the battle report in WD, Dark Angels grim resolve is rerolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase if they didn't move
This is similiar to what it did in 7th edition, so very likely it might be true, considering how many of the other codices thats out have mostly converted rules from 7th to 8th with some adjustmenst~
Nogil wrote: Apparently, in the battle report in WD, Dark Angels grim resolve is rerolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase if they didn't move
This is similiar to what it did in 7th edition, so very likely it might be true, considering how many of the other codices thats out have mostly converted rules from 7th to 8th with some adjustmenst~
Yeah I saw a picture of the battle report where this was mentioned. I wonder how good it'll be though, as it's only useful for units that stand still. I'm not sure how useful this will be for bikes and terminators, but it might be useful for dreads and infantry.
Nogil wrote: Apparently, in the battle report in WD, Dark Angels grim resolve is rerolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase if they didn't move
This is similiar to what it did in 7th edition, so very likely it might be true, considering how many of the other codices thats out have mostly converted rules from 7th to 8th with some adjustmenst~
Yeah I saw a picture of the battle report where this was mentioned. I wonder how good it'll be though, as it's only useful for units that stand still. I'm not sure how useful this will be for bikes and terminators, but it might be useful for dreads and infantry.
It'll be okay for greenwing elements, and Deathwing and Ravenwing usually have their own gimmicks.
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? These Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little disappointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Why would you want moarr hoodies? You get loads of them with the Deathwing Knights and Veterans kit. . I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? These Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little disappointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Why would you want moarr hoodies? You get loads of them with the Deathwing Knights and Veterans kit. . I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? These Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little disappointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Why would you want moarr hoodies? You get loads of them with the Deathwing Knights and Veterans kit. . I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
I'm assuming because he'd like hooded and helmeted heads, since the armor is distinctive.
I'd have liked some robed bodies as well personally.
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? These Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little disappointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Why would you want moarr hoodies? You get loads of them with the Deathwing Knights and Veterans kit. . I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
I'm assuming because he'd like hooded and helmeted heads, since the armor is distinctive.
I'd have liked some robed bodies as well personally.
Eventually, the Primaris kits will probably replace original SM kits. What I would like to see is something that is basically a Primaris Company Veterans kit, with a bunch of robed Primaris Marines with a bunch of different weapon options.
antohammer wrote: I'm an old fan of dark angels... do this mean the lion is coming back????? Or is this just the usual waste of money of an useless book??
Why would the book be worthless if the Lion isn't coming back?
I don't want the Lion back in this book, it would be terrible. Give me next year with a campaign book, a triumverate boxset and a real story as to why he is awake and ready to lead the First Legion.
bullyboy wrote: I don't want the Lion back in this book, it would be terrible. Give me next year with a campaign book, a triumverate boxset and a real story as to why he is awake and ready to lead the First Legion.
Agreed. This would be a much better way to introduce him. My concern is they might not. Carl Tuttle of the Independent Characters was saying that as of six months ago GW had no plans to return any other loyalist primarchs. Obviously that was then and this was now (and the fantastic sales from Guilliman probably changed some minds), but since they tend to have things planned out so far in advance, it's a little disheartening to hear that as late as this year no other primarchs were in the works.
Galas wrote: No Hooded head? These Primaris Upgrade Packs are a little disappointing. No chest pieces, just the same heads with a little variety... I prefer the old ones.
Why would you want moarr hoodies? You get loads of them with the Deathwing Knights and Veterans kit. . I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
I would definitely like a Mk X helmeted hoodie.
Yeah, in Dark Angels my ranking of heads goes like this:
1-Hooded helmet
2-Helmet with wings
3-Normal Helmet
4-Hooded head
5-Normal bare head
A shame the primaris sprue only comes with two 5's and one 3.
But as Kanluwen said my problem is not with the lack of hooded heads, because of that we can have many, but with a lack of robed primaris bodies. Those are much harder, without greenstuff, to do.
Galas this is exactly my problem too. Especially since the robed bodies from the Veterans box are such old sculpts, it really shows. Have you tried your hand at Greenstuff robes? How did it go? I'm kind of afraid to try.
Edit: Sorry this is off topic and I can't figure out how to delete it.
Man, they are really cranking these out. Good for them, but I hope quality doesn't suffer.
Then again, marine codexes should just copy+paste most universial weapon and unit options, and just adjust their unique units accordingly.
And this has got to put the ridiculous lion primarch rumors to bed. If he were coming out, geedubz would have certainly at LEAST teased something by now.
I certainly hope that DA gets something more than reroll 1:s if they didn't move. If that is our chapter trait, then what does that give Ravenwing and Deathwing???
Agusto wrote: Yeah, but jink and no moral are not really the best of traits.
IDK about that, having terminators that never, EVER run away sounds pretty useful so me.
Sounds like it on paper, but in practice, It's close to useless. If you take 5 man terminator squads, like many do, then your immune to morale anyways unless you lost 4 terms in 1 trun and roll a 6 or the opponent has negative morale modifiers. neither of which is going to be common. Deathwing need a lot more than immune to morale to be able to stand on their own.
The big issue is that it gives no bonus to HQ units, since they don't take moral at all, and jink is (almost) useless if you have anything else than flamers on your models. But, as stated, lets wait and see Fingers crossed though...
In the Fluff, apparently RG gave overall command of everything in the Imperium on the "Dark" side of the Rift to Dante.
I could see Lion El Johnson waking up and trying to assert his authority on that half of the Imperium with Dante not quite wanting to give up his authority without the blessing of RG. And since RG and the Lion don't exactly see eye-to-eye on stuff that might be easier said than done.
Lance845 wrote: I had a theory awhile ago that Cypher was actually a psychic manifestation of the Lion while his body was comatose.
Which explains why he pops up and disappears all over the place, cannot really be captured, has the Lions sword, and often seems to lead the DA on a merry chase where they end up where they would be most needed anyway.
bullyboy wrote: I don't want the Lion back in this book, it would be terrible. Give me next year with a campaign book, a triumverate boxset and a real story as to why he is awake and ready to lead the First Legion.
Agreed. This would be a much better way to introduce him. My concern is they might not. Carl Tuttle of the Independent Characters was saying that as of six months ago GW had no plans to return any other loyalist primarchs. Obviously that was then and this was now (and the fantastic sales from Guilliman probably changed some minds), but since they tend to have things planned out so far in advance, it's a little disheartening to hear that as late as this year no other primarchs were in the works.
We have Russ&Angron from Hasting's list to come along. Those are likely next year's arrivals.
Lance845 wrote: I gotta say, I HATE the hood head on that new named lieutenant.
I think it's real out of place to see a dark angel smiling.
Agreed. Though maybe that is the point. He has no idea what the burden of the Chapter is. Though Dark Angels are sourpusses at a genetic level. It is a good thing that there are tons of good Dark Angel heads that look the part much better. My biggest disappointment is that the helmet doesn't have a hood too. The fact that they didn't put a hoodie helmet on the upgrade kit is really disappointing too.
I wonder which Primaris kits will get a Dark Angels version. My guess is Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Inceptors. Why they didn't put the Aggressors with Dark Angels and Inceptors with Blood Angels is beyond me.
I am still hoping for an exclusive Dark Angels Redemptor with double ranged weapons.
Dark Angels will get chapter-specific Primaris kits - the same as the Blood Angels - hard to make out but it could be with an DA upgrade sprue. There is an advertisement in WD showing three DA specific kits including Aggressors. Aggressors are - this also explained in the letters section - not Terminators and therefore painted green.
SilverAlien wrote: Hmm, I know a few people will be happy if they finally get the alternate terminator types, hopefully they will since blood angels apparently are.
I would put money on DA getting the Tartaros and Cataphractii.
I was really hoping for DA to get their own Inceptors instead of Aggressors. That way I could get the DA Inceptors and my brother could get the DABA Aggressors and we could trade the upgrade Sprue.
It would be especially stupid if DA end up with the same themed kits as the BA. Especially since there are already two non-branded Hellblaster and Intercessor kits available.
Are the BA and DA specific versions of primaris units actually different sprues or just the normal ones with a single chapter specific accessory sprue included?
warboss wrote: Are the BA and DA specific versions of primaris units actually different sprues or just the normal ones with a single chapter specific accessory sprue included?
Normal ones with the chapter specific sprue added.
NurglesR0T wrote: Seems like a waste of shelf space to have 3 kits that are identical with a sprue that would fit in a clamshell that takes up less space?
If it makes you feel any better they're also selling the sprue separately, probably in a blister.
warboss wrote: Are the BA and DA specific versions of primaris units actually different sprues or just the normal ones with a single chapter specific accessory sprue included?
Normal ones with the chapter specific sprue added.
Thanks. I was hoping that wasn't the case.
NurglesR0T wrote:Seems like a waste of shelf space to have 3 kits that are identical with a sprue that would fit in a clamshell that takes up less space?
Completely agree. It'll end up being 16+ different SKU's (one each for vanilla, BA, DA, and eventually SW) and slots on the wall for stores to bother with when they could have just sold the sprues separately in a clear bag and kept the base models in the vanilla section. YMMV. While I like bling, I have to say the lack of it was a bit refreshing with the Primaris marines and allows players to customize them to the degree they want instead of every standard marine being bogged down with it.
warboss wrote: Completely agree. It'll end up being 16+ different SKU's (one each for vanilla, BA, DA, and eventually SW) and slots on the wall for stores to bother with when they could have just sold the sprues separately in a clear bag and kept the base models in the vanilla section. YMMV. While I like bling, I have to say the lack of it was a bit refreshing with the Primaris marines and allows players to customize them to the degree they want instead of every standard marine being bogged down with it.
Especially funny since there had been talks of GW tightening up SKU's due to being too many(reason why FB lost so many kits). Well that obviously only applies to non-marines.
Well on flipside GW's pricing factored separate sprue would probably cost 2x-3x as much as it costs here so at least this should be cheaper way to build those so there's that.
Especially funny since there had been talks of GW tightening up SKU's due to being too many(reason why FB lost so many kits). Well that obviously only applies to non-marines.
It's only funny because the "tightening up SKUs" was speculation that ignored that FB lost many kits that were either metal/finecast or older. The plastic stuff was centered around generic things as well.
Well on flipside GW's pricing factored separate sprue would probably cost 2x-3x as much as it costs here so at least this should be cheaper way to build those so there's that.
$15.00 for the Dark Angels and Blood Angels upgrade frames by themselves according to WD. Haven't seen anyone post the prices for the combined kits yet.
Especially funny since there had been talks of GW tightening up SKU's due to being too many(reason why FB lost so many kits). Well that obviously only applies to non-marines.
It's only funny because the "tightening up SKUs" was speculation that ignored that FB lost many kits that were either metal/finecast or older. The plastic stuff was centered around generic things as well.
Well on flipside GW's pricing factored separate sprue would probably cost 2x-3x as much as it costs here so at least this should be cheaper way to build those so there's that.
$15.00 for the Dark Angels and Blood Angels upgrade frames by themselves according to WD. Haven't seen anyone post the prices for the combined kits yet.
The BA boxes are:
Intercessors: $60
Aggressors: $55
Hellblasters: $60
I expect that DA will be the same. It's also the same price as the regular boxes, so the 2 upgrade sprues are free. Except the Aggressors, who's box is $5 more.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Hoping the online retailers can cut it down to 2 for $20.
Still need 5...
Any updates on some rules? Looking at the land raider variant in the WD had me thinking DA we’re turning into Imperial Fists.
In the new White Dwarf there is mention of the new chapter tactic, Grim Resolve. If you do not move you re-roll 1's to hit. First question that springs to mind is whether this specifically changes to a re-roll everything if a captain is giving you re-rolls (like what happens with Cadians using the re-roll 1's order).
The other thing was a warlord trait to get command points back (not enough detail for me to work out the exact specifics).
Other question to my mind is whether we will have the ability to field Deathwing or Ravenwing specific builds with their own chapter tactics. Reason is just that Grim Resolve is not what I would choose for a either of these themes.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They may well be an effective splash release to go with the codex, but once the stock runs out it goes back to basic kit and separate sprue?
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see them replaced by DW and SW versions when there books come around.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They may well be an effective splash release to go with the codex, but once the stock runs out it goes back to basic kit and separate sprue?
Exactly this. Stock them for a short period to ride the Codex wave, then cut back to one sprue and standard boxes, then eventually take that Direct Only. Not like we can draw patterns from GW behaviour, but this is one they've done before (DW for example) and will again.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They may well be an effective splash release to go with the codex, but once the stock runs out it goes back to basic kit and separate sprue?
Exactly this. Stock them for a short period to ride the Codex wave, then cut back to one sprue and standard boxes, then eventually take that Direct Only. Not like we can draw patterns from GW behaviour, but this is one they've done before (DW for example) and will again.
I would fully expect those to become Direct Only later. I don't know how much of a 'splash' release these will be as they usually get limited restocks, but I would expect them to last at least 5-6 months before going Direct Only.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I was thinking DA would be the hellblasters army and Be overcharged plasma all day long with no side effects.
Currently seems they will be “stubborn Bolter drill” instead.
Judging by what was said of this Grim Resolve trait in the White Dwarf battle report, Dark Angel Hellblasters are going to be better than others, provided you don't intend to move them much. I play with Heavy Plasma anyway as I like the look over the others so.. not needing a captain to babysit them potentially is a decent start for me!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Do primaris Marines use the normal sized shoulder pads or would they need their own conversion sprue?
They use normal shoulder pads. If you don't like the Primaris Upgrade, you could always use the regular Dark Angels upgrade sprue and get the same effect. The sword definitely looks better in the regular upgrade.
Well here's the first spoiled strategem from Warhammer community...not real happy that it requires me to ally in SW's to even use it and i'm not even sure if the bonus's are worth possibly taking 2 mortal wounds and a CP, and who do you give it to? If you give the bonuses to named characters like azreal, Sammael, Ezekiel, or Belial they already have enhanced str with their weapons, 2+ weapon skill and high leadership or they just flat out ignore moral. Extra attack is always nice. I guess you'd want to put it on generic Characters if you even use them but Personally i don't care for this strategem at all.
Yeah, you need to step away from the matched play mind set and get your narrative cap on, as that is an awesome stratagem (fluff wise, I'm no bothered about it's WAAC efficiency)
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casvalremdeikun wrote: While cool, that Strategem is a bit pointless. You are better off with the bigger squads than stronger squads.
It is not squads, it is a singular model each. It's to buff characters at the potential cost of a mortal wound.
Haha it's Stratagems like this that show up who was actually looking for raw power and euphemistically calling it "flavour". It's a cool thing. I'll likely never use it but it is maximum flavour!
I think it's an awesome super fluffy strategem. People get too hung up on if it's tourney-viable and forget that there is, ya know, the rest of the game.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Yeah, you need to step away from the matched play mind set and get your narrative cap on, as that is an awesome stratagem (fluff wise, I'm no bothered about it's WAAC efficiency)
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casvalremdeikun wrote: While cool, that Strategem is a bit pointless. You are better off with the bigger squads than stronger squads.
It is not squads, it is a singular model each. It's to buff characters at the potential cost of a mortal wound.
Okay, I think I get the utility. And honestly, it is still kind of worthless since most everything you are using it on doesn't need the bonus WS. A bonus to Leadership on a single model really isn't going to do much either. Still a bonus to Strength and Attacks is pretty decent.
I'm in no way shape or form a waac player, I rarely even play in tournaments. I just want strategems that are decent and useable with my army. I don't want to have to ally in Space wolves to use one of the few DA specific strats we have.
i would love more this stratagem if it was used agaisn't a enemy that is using Space Wolves.
You pick your "champion", the other player chose his "champion". You roll dice, the one that rolls more gains the benefits, the loser loss one wound.
That way, it would be much less "powerfull" and reliable from a competitive standpoint, but oh boy I'll use it every damm time I fight Space Wolves just for the laughs.
Not exactly a best foot forward for Dark Angels previews. Probably your best bet is to have a Libby and a Rune Priest punch each other since unlike other HQ's they have a WS that can be improved.
It should probably be considered a "For Open Play Only" stratagem but it's not like it's the only one of its kind. Plus its funny to think about.
Now I can see some people coming in now and complaining to use the Dark Angel codex, you must buy the DA codex and the Index that contains the Space Wolves, then you must buy the new Space Wolf codex when it comes out. Oh and I forgot we need to buy the rule book as well.
I just hope that this stratagem doesn't replace a stratagem that would be used normally. I don't recall any other stratagem that you need two codices to use.
Is the Space Wolf codex going to be really that strong that if you are not a Space Wolf player you are going to use them anyways because of like how they were in 5th edition?
Take an understrength unit of 1 Space Wolf as an auxiliary detachment, roll the 4+ for the 1-wound model, and give your opponent First Blood before the first turn?
You could use it on a Deathwing Knight master to give him 2+ to hit and 4 attacks with the flail at str 7 instead of 6 (although the str buff doesn't really matter unless your hitting T8) is decent but then he could potentially be dangerously down to 1 wound.
The Ancients are another halfway decent option. Give the DW Ancient a thunder hammer so he hits on 3+, has 4 attacks, at str 10, and even if he takes wound, he still has 4 wounds.
The Champions are another option. The 2+ to hit is wasted but it would put the DW champs str at 8 so 2+ to wound most things and he'd had 4+D3 attacks vs 5 man squad or more.
My real issue with this strat is that you have to ally in SW to use it. , on top of not very many good targets for it in the SW index. they all pretty much have 2+ WS. Maybe a Rune Priest in term armor, or possible lone wolf or Arjac Rockfist.
Also, what does everyone think about Deathwing Tartaros, and Cataphractii terms?
Right, so, the way I read it, you get the stat boost no matter what you roll–the model just has to “survive” so try to avoid 1W models–so you can of course abuse the hell out of it on any model with an ignore-wound roll and/or the re-roll stratagem. Though that’s a bit expensive.
My real issue with this strat is that you have to ally in SW to use it. , on top of not very many good targets for it in the SW index. they all pretty much have 2+ WS. Maybe a Rune Priest in term armor, or possible lone wolf or Arjac Rockfist.
A Wulfen with TH/SS maybe (ignores mortal wound on 5+ if you feth up). Wolf Guard Terminator with some melee weapons. Etc..
Also, would a character technically go down to 1+ WS? If so, it would be awesome with an unwieldy weapon like a Thunderhammer or Powerfist?
A neat and fluffy option, I just dont know many people that would run Wolves and Angels together enough to justify it being in the either Codex and you know it will be wasted space in the Wolf Codex too.
Would have been better off as a joint Strat for them in a Chapter Approved or something.
What a totally worthless strategem, I have to pay points to ally in space wolves and then injure one of my characters then pay a CP for this nonsense.
this means we are at least 1 strat down from other armies already, I get the fluffy side of things, and if they want to go down that route keep strats like these out of matched play, I dont mind this being in the book, I do mind it being one of our "unique" strats.
Formosa wrote: What a totally worthless strategem, I have to pay points to ally in space wolves and then injure one of my characters then pay a CP for this nonsense.
this means we are at least 1 strat down from other armies already, I get the fluffy side of things, and if they want to go down that route keep strats like these out of matched play, I dont mind this being in the book, I do mind it being one of our "unique" strats.
Every army has strategems like this. You think anyone is using the Chaos Boon stratagem in matched play?
Formosa wrote: What a totally worthless strategem, I have to pay points to ally in space wolves and then injure one of my characters then pay a CP for this nonsense.
this means we are at least 1 strat down from other armies already, I get the fluffy side of things, and if they want to go down that route keep strats like these out of matched play, I dont mind this being in the book, I do mind it being one of our "unique" strats.
Every army has strategems like this. You think anyone is using the Chaos Boon stratagem in matched play?
I didnt like those either
there should be matched and non matched strats I think, for example I would love to see an Ork Strat that lets you loot any vehicle from the game and orkify it, but not for matched play, kind of like the Land raider VDR
My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
Still, it's potentially a Wolf Lord and a Dark Angels Captain hitting on a 2+ re-rollable even with unwieldy weapons like a (now) Str. 10 Thunderhammer and an extra Attack on top.
Arachnofiend wrote: My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
That and yes while having to ally space pups for it to trigger is a pain it is still a pretty solid buff for a lot of hqs or smaller chaeacters even if 1 wound down.
Arachnofiend wrote: My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .
Arachnofiend wrote: My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .
Run a Vanguard Detachment with a WGBL in Terminator Armor, two Lone Wolves in Terminator Armor, and a squad of Wulfen. Use the Strategem on the Wulfen Pack Leader.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Run a Vanguard Detachment with a WGBL in Terminator Armor, two Lone Wolves in Terminator Armor, and a squad of Wulfen. Use the Strategem on the Wulfen Pack Leader.
Nah. Just use a Patrol detachment with a Wolf Lord with Thunderhammer (and some cheap troop filler camping Obj.) in Terminator Armour or with Jump Pack.
WS 1+ offsetting the Thunderhammer -1, as well as +1 Attack and +1 Str. (potentially, admittedly). Go in and wreck stuff. Do it again for a DA character with Hammer (or Powerfist) coming in with your close combat Deathwing (or again a Jump Pack).
Arachnofiend wrote: My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .
This one does have uses.
For a mixed army, points, a CP and possibly the loss of a wound, I would consider that useless personally, but hey, I know some will like it, thats fine, I dont, not from a matched play perspective, fluff wise I am cool with it, it should just be free (for the possible loss of a wound), its not worth paying points for AND splitting the army up AND a CP and of course whatever the character costs.
I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.
GI_Redshirt wrote: I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.
The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.
GI_Redshirt wrote: I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.
The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.
And therein lies the other issue with this strategem. By having to take model/s from another army, your auras won't work for the other faction.
Seems like rather than slightly boosting something from the other army, I'd rather just have more stuff from my list that can take advantage of all my auras.
Always hated these kind of rules that are based on fluff, but makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would the units became so much stronger just because they went into a fight with each other before??
Malifaux and Warmahorde are full of these kind of rules, and they really kill the immersion for me, so I hope it's not a portent of things to come
GI_Redshirt wrote: I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.
The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.
Never meant to imply that Super Friends was back. Just pointing out how funny and stupid it is that DA has a strategem that specifically requires SW to be in your list to be used. And that GW decided that this was the best strategem to preview first.
As others have said, this strategem is super fluffy, and if you are creating a certain narrative with your game/army is really cool and fun.
But giving an army a strategem that they cannot use unless they have another army allied into their list is pants on head levels of stupidity. It's one thing if you wanna make a strategem that only works if you're fighting certain armies. That can be situationally useful at least. Its another thing entirely to make a rule that only works if you include models in your list that aren't even from the freaking army you're playing. I completely agree with any DA players who are annoyed at this. You guys collect and play DA, you shouldn't have to collect and play SW as well to have access to all the stuff in the DA codex.
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
I love this stratagem and, as a Space Wolves player, will certainly add some 6 Dark Angel models to my collection to play around with it. No more investment than painting up the odd Assassin or Greyfax or other cool minis for fun (and 100x better than painting ugly ass and dated tank kits like Predators).
And I don't think there is a "limit" on how many stratagems are in a Codex. They just put in the Stratagems they come up with and that's it.
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Latro_ wrote: be interesting if they bring the lion back, use that strat on him and a space wolf scout XD fluffy not fluffy
Primarchs (thus far) aren't Infantry. Which is somewhat of a pity. It would actually be cool to actually use it on the actual Lion and Russ himself in some distant future, assuming GW does (almost) all Primarchs eventually.
streetsamurai wrote: Always hated these kind of rules that are based on fluff, but makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would the units became so much stronger just because they went into a fight with each other before??
Malifaux and Warmahorde are full of these kind of rules, and they really kill the immersion for me, so I hope it's not a portent of things to come
The fluff really does justify the effect of the rules. If a blood angel can get +1 strength for just getting caught up in fisticuffs, then a dark angel and space wolf can (plus additional buffs) from being amped at being chosen to partake in the 100000 year old ritual of reenacting the duel between the lion and russ.
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Either way, if there were strict Stratagem limits in total and by play type (not the case), Matched Play would and should only get 1/3rd of them anyhow (with Open Play and Narrative Play as the two other modes of play also getting 1/3rd each).
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Yeah, this "Omg, as we have this we will have now one less good stratagem!" is nonsense. Wheres written that theres need to be a fixed number of stratagems?
Christ, guys: it's literally just a fun little thing you can do if you're playing an apocalypse game with your friend who runs Space Wolves or something.
And I don't think the chosen champions get the bonus from the fight; the idea is they always had the buffs, which is what got them selected to take part in the ritual in the first place.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.
Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!
Well with a CSM detachment they can use most of CSM's on their own stuff as well.
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.
Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.
Which is a distinction I don't get. A Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a Predator is no different than a Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a box of Marines and a Character to paint in Space Wolves blue. It's all just sprues in a box.
This weird absorption of in-universe factions and background as player-identity of "my army" and "your army" is kinda funny and also strangely disturbing. "My army" isn't Dark Angels or Space Wolves. "My army" is the models I have, which might include Dark Angels and Eldar and Assassins and Space Wolves and no Predators, which might "force" me to buy them if I have that weird completionist fetish of "I must use everything" (which is weird from competitive people in particular, who usually tend to make it a point of pride to ignore large parts of the game). Or it might not include Space-Wolves-blue Marines, which, yes, than you might be "forced" by your own completionist delusion to buy those.
It's plastic toys and as far as background goes, this stratagem builds on a more solid foundation of in-universe background and rules than 3 tanks kinda merging their cannon shots mid-flight into some magic super-projectile. It's fine. Don't like it, ignore it. Feeling the "irresistable urge" to use all CAPS EVERYTHING, start with Open War cards and Narrative play before getting all sore about a single throwaway Stratagem the designers used to have some fun with a vintage-40K story point.
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.
Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.
Which is a distinction I don't get. A Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a Predator is no different than a Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a box of Marines and a Character to paint in Space Wolves blue. It's all just sprues in a box.
This is a really strange outlook to me. I chose DAs because I like DAs. I don't like Wolves, UMs etc. Not taking a unit in my chosen force is not even close to not taking something from an entirely different army. Not the same game, not even in the same ballpark.
I guess if you want to use the strat....just take a small tac sqd and character (or whatever the wulfies get) and paint them as DAs but just use wolf rules. Really dumb though. I appreciate the fluff, but to include it as a strategem that does take the spot of a regular strategem (regardless of how many they had) is kind of sucky.
Arachnofiend wrote:My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.
That is good to know. I am wondering how come we never herd about these other strategems where you need another codex/book to use.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!
Death Guard have fewer because they can use all of theirs; CSM, AdMech, etc. have an entire page dedicated to stratagems that each can only be used by one legion/forge world/etc. If you play your CSM as purely Black Legion for example you effectively have 18 stratagems, which is still more than Death Guard get but not as extreme.
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.
Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.
CSM need demons to summon them. Thats a special rule of that army.
As a Dark Angel player, this rule is not only fun to use, but is actually pretty damm good. Paying 1 CP to give a Company Commander in Terminator Armour with TH and SS +1 WS so he hits with the TH in 2+, +1 attack and efectively +2S? And all those bonuses to a SWHQ too. Yes please.
Is both fluffy and very damm powerfull. Of course people can chose to not use it. I don't know if people realizes this was a rule in 3rd edition for the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I think is pretty damm cool that they have revived that rule with this special stratagem.
Stop right there you damm Matched play fanatics, you are not the only players out there. I have already talk with my group to use this stratagem in narrative games agaisn't the two players that use SW wolves. This is a nice bone out there for the old fans of the armies, and in the plus side it can open new armies styles. Theres nothing bad about this, literally.
And no "But they force me to buy SW to use this, if I don't use this i'm at a disadvantage!" no. It cost you 1 CP. If you don't use that CP in this stratagem you can use it in others.
I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.
If you don't like the models, you're screwed.
To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.
Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.
CSM need demons to summon them. Thats a special rule of that army.
As a Dark Angel player, this rule is not only fun to use, but is actually pretty damm good. Paying 1 CP to give a Company Commander in Terminator Armour with TH and SS +1 WS so he hits with the TH in 2+, +1 attack and efectively +2S? And all those bonuses to a SWHQ too. Yes please.
Is both fluffy and very damm powerfull. Of course people can chose to not use it. I don't know if people realizes this was a rule in 3rd edition for the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I think is pretty damm cool that they have revived that rule with this special stratagem.
Stop right there you damm Matched play fanatics, you are not the only players out there. I have already talk with my group to use this stratagem in narrative games agaisn't the two players that use SW wolves. This is a nice bone out there for the old fans of the armies, and in the plus side it can open new armies styles. Theres nothing bad about this, literally.
And no "But they force me to buy SW to use this, if I don't use this i'm at a disadvantage!" no. It cost you 1 CP. If you don't use that CP in this stratagem you can use it in others.
No way, I am expected (not forced) to BUY space wolves to make my DARK ANGEL army, its not that I dont like Space Wolves or anything and I may just buy some to make a fluffy army, but that doesnt detract from the fact that why should a Dark Angel trait have a Space Wolf condition, it is silly, if they wanted to do something like this then why not make an "allies" strat deck for people to buy (I like this idea), this deck could encourage fluffy combos of certain armies, for example I would not expect Tyranids to have a Genestealer cult strat, but this Deck could.
If they release a "Allies Stratagems deck" then people will complain that they need to buy extra rules/products to mix armies and be competitive. GW can't win with this.
Take this stratagem as a nice and fluffy extra if you like to mixe forces. Nothing else. If this was a free special rule, I could understand the complaints. But it is not, as a stratagem it has a cost in CP. If you don't use it, you aren't competitively punished in any shape or form.
Galas wrote: If they release a "Allies Stratagems deck" then people will complain that they need to buy extra rules/products to mix armies and be competitive. GW can't win with this.
Take this stratagem as a nice and fluffy extra if you like to mixe forces. Nothing else.
Yeah you are right, I am only complaining about needing a non Dark Angel element to use a Dark Angel trait
yellowfever wrote: ^^^this. I have about 10K in space wolves and about 7K in deathwing. This strat is for people in my situation.
As someone who plays three unrelated Space Marine armies and possess models for four more, I can definitely feel you with that one.
It is a cool Strategem, it just won't see a lot of play for a lot of people. But who knows, maybe some DA and SW players will grab a few models from the other faction.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Some people own both armies. Some people will likely have both codexes. This Strategem is for them. No one is being forced to run Space Wolves here.
Yeah I said that earlier, "expected to (Not forces)"
casvalremdeikun wrote: Some people own both armies. Some people will likely have both codexes. This Strategem is for them. No one is being forced to run Space Wolves here.
Yeah I said that earlier, "expected to (Not forces)"
Do you ever use all the stratagems in a in a game anyways? I think its really awesome and hope they do more of this because I never really wanted to collect space wolves after returning to the hobby but think its really cool I could convert a group of wolfguard, add a sweet theme fluff to my army and have a stratigum to go with it.
I am assuming if said unit is in my battalion my dark angels lose their legion trait like the plaguebearers in a deathguard detachment. In that case its a big tax to spend 1CP
Eihnlazer wrote: So much hate on necrons when they have the best vehicle army in the game atm.
That's a bold claim to make when Space Marines are placing with their Razorbacks and Stormravens and Guard is placing with their everything. Tell me, how many doomsday arks have you seen at top tables?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Some people own both armies. Some people will likely have both codexes. This Strategem is for them. No one is being forced to run Space Wolves here.
Yeah I said that earlier, "expected to (Not forces)"
Do you ever use all the stratagems in a in a game anyways? I think its really awesome and hope they do more of this because I never really wanted to collect space wolves after returning to the hobby but think its really cool I could convert a group of wolfguard, add a sweet theme fluff to my army and have a stratigum to go with it.
I am assuming if said unit is in my battalion my dark angels lose their legion trait like the plaguebearers in a deathguard detachment. In that case its a big tax to spend 1CP
Hey man I am not detracting it for anyone else, I just dont think it should be in this book, I buy the Dark Angels codex for Dark Angels, not Dark Angels and Space Wolves, I even said I may buy some Space Wolves for this but, as I have said I think this strat is in the wrong place, will it also be in the Space Wolf Codex?
It's a Dark Angels rule in a Dark Angels book for Dark Angels players who think it might be fun to play out a piece of fluff that has been present every since the 2nd Edition Codex.
Galas wrote: Yeah, an aphotecary can heal the wound they lose on a 4+.
That's not how apothecaries work. They auto heal D3 wounds from a wounded model each turn, if there is no models with missing wounds but there is dead models, on a 4+ they bring a model in that unit back with 1 wound
Galas wrote: If they release a "Allies Stratagems deck" then people will complain that they need to buy extra rules/products to mix armies and be competitive. GW can't win with this.
.
True. They should just keep armies as self-contained organizations, not grant magical power ups for honor duel formalities that probably took place on someone's ship weeks before the battle happens.
d-usa wrote: It's a Dark Angels rule in a Dark Angels book for Dark Angels players who think it might be fun to play out a piece of fluff that has been present every since the 2nd Edition Codex.
No it's a dark angels book for dark angels players that require you to get space wolves to use all of your books contents, and the fluff was that if both were in the same place at the same time (not nessearily in battle) they would choose a champion to fight each other, that should be a pure fluff thing and not an ingame mechanic to gain a boost for a possible lost wound And a command point, that's pure non matched play, which is where it belongs, and there I would have no issue with it, and yes I know not everyone plays matched play (apparently, never ever seen a game that didn't use points personally) and some stuff should be thrown in books for them, but it feels like it's in the wrong place and either should be free for non matched play, or in an "allies" strat deck.
d-usa wrote: It's a Dark Angels rule in a Dark Angels book for Dark Angels players who think it might be fun to play out a piece of fluff that has been present every since the 2nd Edition Codex.
^This!
I have old DW / RW army that I'm hoping to dust off... and using that SW strategem looks knarly!
I guess I'm lucky that I've got some Space Wolves handy. The Stratagem looks fun, although I doubt I'll use it much. Still, I might ally in some ThunderCav with my Ravenwing at some point.
Galas wrote: Yeah, an aphotecary can heal the wound they lose on a 4+.
That's not how apothecaries work. They auto heal D3 wounds from a wounded model each turn, if there is no models with missing wounds but there is dead models, on a 4+ they bring a model in that unit back with 1 wound
Ehmm... and where exactly I have contradicted that? With the 4+ I wasn't refering to the aphotecary but to the Stratagem.
Galas wrote: If they release a "Allies Stratagems deck" then people will complain that they need to buy extra rules/products to mix armies and be competitive. GW can't win with this.
.
True. They should just keep armies as self-contained organizations, not grant magical power ups for honor duel formalities that probably took place on someone's ship weeks before the battle happens.
If you want you can find the nonsense in every stratagem. If you want to be upsted about this stratagem, ok, you are free to do it. As a dark angel player I like it, and maybe I'll use it in some ocasion. Thats enough for me for a stratagem.
d-usa wrote: It's a Dark Angels rule in a Dark Angels book for Dark Angels players who think it might be fun to play out a piece of fluff that has been present every since the 2nd Edition Codex.
No it's a dark angels book for dark angels players that require you to get space wolves to use all of your books contents, and the fluff was that if both were in the same place at the same time (not nessearily in battle) they would choose a champion to fight each other, that should be a pure fluff thing and not an ingame mechanic to gain a boost for a possible lost wound And a command point, that's pure non matched play, which is where it belongs, and there I would have no issue with it, and yes I know not everyone plays matched play (apparently, never ever seen a game that didn't use points personally) and some stuff should be thrown in books for them, but it feels like it's in the wrong place and either should be free for non matched play, or in an "allies" strat deck.
I’m sure there will be other models you will have to buy to use all of the book. The same argument of “I shouldn’t have to buy a Wolf to use every option in the book” can be used against any new model in the book. “I shouldn’t have to buy a Stormraven to use every option in the book” as an example.
It's clear they are trying to write fun rules for the fluffy narrative gamers as well as the competitive players. Unless this is the only stratagem in the book, I don't see the problem.
Maybe they took all those Dark Angel / Space Wolf bark bark star lists back in 7th too literally.
This is a really strange outlook to me. I chose DAs because I like DAs. I don't like Wolves, UMs etc. Not taking a unit in my chosen force is not even close to not taking something from an entirely different army. Not the same game, not even in the same ballpark.
I guess if you want to use the strat....just take a small tac sqd and character (or whatever the wulfies get) and paint them as DAs but just use wolf rules. Really dumb though. I appreciate the fluff, but to include it as a strategem that does take the spot of a regular strategem (regardless of how many they had) is kind of sucky.
And I collect Marines of various colours, because I like them and think they are cool. I don't like the boxy tanks though, so I don't collect those.
Horses for courses.
The point is, just because I don't enjoy X from the GW product range as much as others do, doesn't mean I, yes I, demand that GW write every rules publication to just my personal preferences and mine alone, and better not dare print 2 sentences about stuff that I, yes I, don't like. If other people like the stuff I don't like as much, feth them. GW better be my personal rules-writing-slave writing publications just for me and me alone!!!!!
Zillian wrote: No excitement at finally getting some AA? We now have access to the Stalker and the Hunter. That has to be a plus!
No one needs AA tho. What is it gonna shoot at? Crimson Hunter and Fire Raptors are about the only usable flyer after chapter approved releases. For flying units without hard to hit, lascannons work just fine.
I have two friends high five-ing over this, since one plays DA and the other Space Wolves. They already declared that they will always team up from now on.
So at least two people are very happy with this stratagem.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Ok so where this "max number of strategems" comes from?
I could see complain on warlord traits, relics and faction specific objectives as those are d6 based so there's limit but strategems are as many as GW wants to print. There's no hard code limit that I can see.
Arachnofiend wrote: Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.
Ok so where this "max number of strategems" comes from?
I could see complain on warlord traits, relics and faction specific objectives as those are d6 based so there's limit but strategems are as many as GW wants to print. There's no hard code limit that I can see.
Not to mention that once you start talking about soup lists, you have access to all the stratagems from every codex you have a detachment from.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Which is a distinction I don't get. A Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a Predator is no different than a Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a box of Marines and a Character to paint in Space Wolves blue. It's all just sprues in a box.
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Or dark angel green and use them as count-as space wolves but are actually sub-chapter of dark angels if you are worried about fielding different coloured marines.
Next up:
Leman Russ and Lion El'Johnson released, stratagem gets upped to 3CP because all the tournaments become Russ and Lion fighting Mortarion and Magnus.
This is a really strange outlook to me. I chose DAs because I like DAs. I don't like Wolves, UMs etc. Not taking a unit in my chosen force is not even close to not taking something from an entirely different army. Not the same game, not even in the same ballpark.
I guess if you want to use the strat....just take a small tac sqd and character (or whatever the wulfies get) and paint them as DAs but just use wolf rules. Really dumb though. I appreciate the fluff, but to include it as a strategem that does take the spot of a regular strategem (regardless of how many they had) is kind of sucky.
And I collect Marines of various colours, because I like them and think they are cool. I don't like the boxy tanks though, so I don't collect those.
Horses for courses.
The point is, just because I don't enjoy X from the GW product range as much as others do, doesn't mean I, yes I, demand that GW write every rules publication to just my personal preferences and mine alone, and better not dare print 2 sentences about stuff that I, yes I, don't like. If other people like the stuff I don't like as much, feth them. GW better be my personal rules-writing-slave writing publications just for me and me alone!!!!!
What kinda stupid kindergarten attitude is that?
Kindergarten attitude? So already falling back on insults......nice job.
I get the fluff, I do, and I like that they are attaching rules to fluff, that's cool too. But as it stands it is not a Dark Angels strategem, it's a Dark Angels and Space Wolves strategem, and believe it or not, there are people who like to play purist forces, not soup armies.
Heck, you can't even say it's for the narrative players because Matched Play players will tale a small detachment of wolves (the best they can cherry pick) to use this strategem.
How hard would it have been to keep the title, keep the rule as is but just have it apply to one DA character and stating that he had fought vs a Space Wolf at a previous time. No reason to actually include Space Wolves in your army.
Well I think this has finally answered the question. "Will people on dakka whine about literally anything?"
Yes. Yes they will.
I mean, how dare there be a flavourful strategem! How dare they have a strategem that might not affect how I run my army exactly! Im gunna go start a thread whining about how the avatar resurgent strategem is a complete joke because I dont own an avatar and clearly games workshop are FORCING ME TO BUY ONE OR MY STRATEGEM.IS USELESS.
yeah.
Bobug wrote: Well I think this has finally answered the question. "Will people on dakka whine about literally anything?"
Yes. Yes they will.
I mean, how dare there be a flavourful strategem! How dare they have a strategem that might not affect how I run my army exactly! Im gunna go start a thread whining about how the avatar resurgent strategem is a complete joke because I dont own an avatar and clearly games workshop are FORCING ME TO BUY ONE OR MY STRATEGEM.IS USELESS.
yeah.
Again, a totally pointless counter argument.
If you own Eldar, let's say that to use Forewarned your army would have to take some Harlequin or DE infantry to use that strategem. People wouldn't have been happy, why would I want to add harlequins or DE into my army to use a Craftworld strategem? It is not close to being the same as not owning a certain model from within your faction.
Anyway, hopefully we will see some new stuff today. I'm just looking for some bonuses for my Ravenwing primarily. The dark talon is now 12pts more but this should be easily offset by cheaper bikes and speeders. Now hopefully some useful strategems/relics/warlord traits to make the army a little more viable.
How hard would it have been to keep the title, keep the rule as is but just have it apply to one DA character and stating that he had fought vs a Space Wolf at a previous time. No reason to actually include Space Wolves in your army.
No reason? Sure there is a reason. Because some people LIKE to include Space Wolves in the army to reflect that this Stratagem refers to a ritual fight before Dark Angels and Space Wolves fight together.
That's why it is part of the Dark Angels lore. And yes, some people like "purist" forces. Just ignore the Stratagem then. Some people like "non-purist" forces and they have just as much a right to get some cool Stratagem as you and your personal subjective interpretation of what a Dark Angel army "is".
A codex serving two ways to play the game is always better than a Codex serving only one way to play the game.
Again, the "kindergarten" reference is apt not because you have no right to not like/use a given Stratagem, it is apt because you demand there should be no rule in the Codex that YOU (!!!) don't like, people with different opinions and preferences be damned!!!!
Bobug wrote: Well I think this has finally answered the question. "Will people on dakka whine about literally anything?"
Yes. Yes they will.
I mean, how dare there be a flavourful strategem! How dare they have a strategem that might not affect how I run my army exactly! Im gunna go start a thread whining about how the avatar resurgent strategem is a complete joke because I dont own an avatar and clearly games workshop are FORCING ME TO BUY ONE OR MY STRATEGEM.IS USELESS.
yeah.
Again, a totally pointless counter argument.
If you own Eldar, let's say that to use the Forewarned your army would have to take some Harlequin or DE infantry to use that strategem. People wouldn't have been happy, why would I want to add harlequins or DE into my army to use a Craftworld strategem? It is not close to being the same as not owning a certain model from within your faction.
In order to use the DG summoning stratagem I have to buy Chaos Daemons, which are not part of the Death Guard. Nobody complains about that, as it's fluffy. I don't get what people are so angry about. You could say: But both of them are Chaos and Nurgle. Yes, Space Wolves and DA are Imperium and Space Marines - both of them. It is the same. For some stratagems you need a certain model, for others you don't. If I'd play Iron Warriors I could argue there are 8 stratagems and relics in my codex I can't use. That's the way it is. If you still want them, buy an additional detachment.
Well, part of the reason Chaos Marines are often so bland in 8th is probably because it is dearly missing a page of Stratagems of this sort (or other reward mechanisms) that give you some unique stuff to play with if you bring an old school Chaos army with a bunch of Rubrics and Berzerkers and Death Guard and Space-Wolves-turned-Red-Corsairs and Noise Marines in the same force and isn't just Chaos Space Marines as a Loyalist-style-painted-in-one-colour-scheme Marine army but Evil(tm).
That's why this is possibly the best Stratagem since the introduction of that game mechanic in 8th. It opens up ways to integrate all the nuggets, connections and interrelations that weave the 40K lore and help break the oppressively bland mono-armies incentivised by keywords, aura effects and similar mechanics, while also pointing players to specific multi-army builds that don't only/strictly follow the soup-for-tournament efficiency route (though as everything, it can be abused that way, I am sure) but grounds it in the rich background of 40K.
How hard would it have been to keep the title, keep the rule as is but just have it apply to one DA character and stating that he had fought vs a Space Wolf at a previous time. No reason to actually include Space Wolves in your army.
No reason? Sure there is a reason. Because some people LIKE to include Space Wolves in the army to reflect that this Stratagem refers to a ritual fight before Dark Angels and Space Wolves fight together.
That's why it is part of the Dark Angels lore. And yes, some people like "purist" forces. Just ignore the Stratagem then. Some people like "non-purist" forces and they have just as much a right to get some cool Stratagem as you and your personal subjective interpretation of what a Dark Angel army "is".
A codex serving two ways to play the game is always better than a Codex serving only one way to play the game.
Again, the "kindergarten" reference is apt not because you have no right to not like/use a given Stratagem, it is apt because you demand there should be no rule in the Codex that YOU (!!!) don't like, people with different opinions and preferences be damned!!!!
No it's not apt as I never stated that I don't like the Codex and I already know there will be strategems I won't use (Preds, Vindis...not planning to own 3) but hey, keep up with your hyperbole. I have some deathwatch though...where's my strategem for that? How about Grey Knights? The Inquisition?
To use the strategem, there was no need to actually have to include SWs in your army, but I understand I'm talking to a wall.
What most of you are missing is that the strategem limits the people who can use it, not increases. Hey I have Space Wolves and DAs, why shouldnt "I" get that strategem? Great, but you could still use the strategem if it was DA only.....it would be available to more people.
Eihnlazer wrote: So much hate on necrons when they have the best vehicle army in the game atm.
That's a bold claim to make when Space Marines are placing with their Razorbacks and Stormravens and Guard is placing with their everything. Tell me, how many doomsday arks have you seen at top tables?
Not my fault there aren't more necron players bringing vehicle heavy lists to tournies. Quantam shielding is a bit OP and the only reasons i'd imagine you don't see a lot of necron lists is that necron vehicles were never very prevalent in earlier editions (with the exception of doom scythes) and that plasma is a bit too strong (its the only weapon that reliably hurts necron vehicles).
To use the strategem, there was no need to actually have to include SWs in your army, but I understand I'm talking to a wall.
Again. You probably don't need more bonuses if you don't include non Dark Angels. Your aura effects and other stuff will work more reliably across your entire army. Your other pure-DA stratagems aren't handicapped by possibly not being applicable to some of your army.
Pure forces get 100% of the good stuff at the moment anyhow. There needs to be bonuses and advantages that compensate for losing a lot of that by bringing Dark Angels AND Space Wolves (or Grey Knights, Death Watch, etc.., yes certainly).
This is to the White Knights on here, Yes some people like this strat, some dont like it (or think its in the wrong place like me), no it doesnt fit the fluff, Dark Angels traditionally dont ally well with others, THIS is a part of the fluff, now they DO have a rivalry with the Space Wolves and that is what this Strat is showing, its a fluff ability that encourages (NOT FORCES...) the Dark Angel player to take Allies, something that Dark Angels usually dont like to do if they can avoid it (dont want people snooping around, not to mention they are not trusted and are known for just abandoning there allies), and again this strat is for those times where they happen to be allied with Space Wolves.
It is not whining when people want there Dark Angels traits to only be for Dark Angels and not require an outside army to be able to be used, it is a valid and understandable response to this particular strat, that however does not make this strat utterly worthless IF and only IF you want to take Space Wolf allies, for those that do not, then they have access to one less trait in matched play, had it been 0CP then I am sure no one would have minded, add it in as an army trait (and for space wolves) because if I am allying Space Wolves then I am already splitting my army up and paying points for these other units that cannot share a lot of rules, as it stands now, yes its fluffy, yes it can make some interesting combos but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff and matched play.
Regardless of its origin the two Legions (and their subsequent Chapters) have never forgotten their feud and tensions run high between them. Though the Chapters have fought together on many occasions the vows made by their progenitors long ago have resulted in customary duels between them. It has come to pass that each time the Chapters meet two champions are selected from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.
This goes back to 2nd edition pretty much. The very fact that there is an established ritual for just that particular occasion kinda proves that this isn't an unheard of occasion. And Space Wolves aren't numerous either. For every battle Dark Angels did with Space Wolves, ritual and all, they probably did a hundred battles allied with Ultramarines-successor-chapter 123 and several thousand with Imperial Guard regiment 7384324.
Space Wolves & Dark Angels allied is almost certainly a more frequent even than .. say ... just the Deathwing all on their own out fighting as a pure force.
Formosa wrote: This is to the White Knights on here, Yes some people like this strat, some dont like it (or think its in the wrong place like me), no it doesnt fit the fluff, Dark Angels traditionally dont ally well with others, THIS is a part of the fluff, now they DO have a rivalry with the Space Wolves and that is what this Strat is showing, its a fluff ability that encourages (NOT FORCES...) the Dark Angel player to take Allies, something that Dark Angels usually dont like to do if they can avoid it (dont want people snooping around, not to mention they are not trusted and are known for just abandoning there allies), and again this strat is for those times where they happen to be allied with Space Wolves.
It is not whining when people want there Dark Angels traits to only be for Dark Angels and not require an outside army to be able to be used, it is a valid and understandable response to this particular strat, that however does not make this strat utterly worthless IF and only IF you want to take Space Wolf allies, for those that do not, then they have access to one less trait in matched play, had it been 0CP then I am sure no one would have minded, add it in as an army trait (and for space wolves) because if I am allying Space Wolves then I am already splitting my army up and paying points for these other units that cannot share a lot of rules, as it stands now, yes its fluffy, yes it can make some interesting combos but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff and matched play.
DARK ANGELS DO NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS
They're not white knights for pointing out that it's an over the top complaint. I can't wait for this same nonsense when the SW book comes out and has the same ability. And SW will have their own abilities to apply to that portion of the army.
Now heaven help us if there are two such stratagems in the book. The whole internet will gak themselves with rage and make DJT the King of America.
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
tneva82 wrote: Suggested elsewhere: that bonus to ws2 guy, goes to ws1. Usually pointless as 1 hits but add power fist...fist that still hits on 2 plus
Yeah. It's pretty nasty if you want a cc army/character. Blood Angels get a Thunderhammer with no -1 as a relic. This gives you basically 2 of those with +1 Str. and +1 Attack on top for fun.
So, I think the main problem a lot of people are having with this stratagem, is a result of the matched play rules.
At the end of the day, the -vast- majority of games played use the Matched play format (competitive or not), so, as a result, to even use this stratagem you are going to need to spend, at least, a couple of hundred points for a patrol detachment of Wolves (or DA if you’re a SW player). This is simply because of the battleforged rules, and needing to keep each detachment “pure” in order to gain the benefits of each army. Yes, people do play narrative and open play games frequently, but, i would be astounded if the number of games played in those 2 styles comes anywhere close to matching games played using matched play.
Now… If the SW’s got a rule saying something like “1 unit of SW infantry can be included in any Space Marine army and will not have an impact on (or benefit from) the host armies battleforged rules”, it would make things interesting. This would be similar to how Scions work in Astra Militarum, and a way of representing how they were used as “watchful eyes” on the other legions in the Heresy. This would be super cool, fluffy AND make this stratagem actually worth something.
However, without a rule like that, I’m also in the camp of “well, never going to use that”. That is simply because I don’t see the benefits outweighing the cost of a CP (which you’ll be limited on anyway if you have to take a patrol detachment) and the potential cost of 2 wounds on my characters. Sure, it’d benefit the SW model if/when it gets to combat, but as the DA want to be more about shooting right now….
Sure, it’s kinda fluffy, but, currently, I put this stratagem in the same basket as the Admech Scryerskull stratagem…
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
It isn't fluffy that they get magic power ups out of it,
It was there in the fluff to establish rivalry, not to give melee characters a power up, or to randomly jam a single space wolf model into a DA list.
Kdash wrote: So, I think the main problem a lot of people are having with this stratagem, is a result of the matched play rules.
At the end of the day, the -vast- majority of games played use the Matched play format (competitive or not), so, as a result, to even use this stratagem you are going to need to spend, at least, a couple of hundred points for a patrol detachment of Wolves (or DA if you’re a SW player). This is simply because of the battleforged rules, and needing to keep each detachment “pure” in order to gain the benefits of each army. Yes, people do play narrative and open play games frequently, but, i would be astounded if the number of games played in those 2 styles comes anywhere close to matching games played using matched play.
Now… If the SW’s got a rule saying something like “1 unit of SW infantry can be included in any Space Marine army and will not have an impact on (or benefit from) the host armies battleforged rules”, it would make things interesting. This would be similar to how Scions work in Astra Militarum, and a way of representing how they were used as “watchful eyes” on the other legions in the Heresy. This would be super cool, fluffy AND make this stratagem actually worth something.
However, without a rule like that, I’m also in the camp of “well, never going to use that”. That is simply because I don’t see the benefits outweighing the cost of a CP (which you’ll be limited on anyway if you have to take a patrol detachment) and the potential cost of 2 wounds on my characters. Sure, it’d benefit the SW model if/when it gets to combat, but as the DA want to be more about shooting right now….
Sure, it’s kinda fluffy, but, currently, I put this stratagem in the same basket as the Admech Scryerskull stratagem…
Well, it definitely got me thinking though. I'm a main SW player and the first thing I came up with that would complement them rather nicely is an Outrider detachment consisting of Sammael on Jetbike (receives buff from stratagem) + Ravenwing Bikers/ Black Knights (Wolves like to play aggressively and these guys are the same). Then take Arjac or Logan (to receive the Stratagem buffs) + your normal SW forces. Don't know how competitive it's gonna be but it sounds fun as hell to me. I'm not normally not too much into DA but I love their models so this would be a perfect excuse to get a small complementary force of them.
Edit: Meh, I just remembered that Sammael isn't infantry so he's not eligible... bummer
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
It isn't fluffy that they get magic power ups out of it,
It was there in the fluff to establish rivalry, not to give melee characters a power up, or to randomly jam a single space wolf model into a DA list.
Same could be said about lots of bonus rules that are there just for coolness.
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
It isn't fluffy that they get magic power ups out of it,
It was there in the fluff to establish rivalry, not to give melee characters a power up, or to randomly jam a single space wolf model into a DA list.
Not "magic power ups". The bonuses simply represent them getting fired up from the duel and not wanting to look like a weakling to the other in the following battle, so they fight harder than they normally would. The potential mortal wound is there to represent them possibly getting injured during the duel.
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
It isn't fluffy that they get magic power ups out of it,
It was there in the fluff to establish rivalry, not to give melee characters a power up, or to randomly jam a single space wolf model into a DA list.
Same could be said about lots of bonus rules that are there just for coolness.
That they shouldn't be there? Yes indeed.
'Coolness' isn't a rule element.
Regardless of its origin the two Legions (and their subsequent Chapters) have never forgotten their feud and tensions run high between them. Though the Chapters have fought together on many occasions the vows made by their progenitors long ago have resulted in customary duels between them. It has come to pass that each time the Chapters meet two champions are selected from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.
This goes back to 2nd edition pretty much. The very fact that there is an established ritual for just that particular occasion kinda proves that this isn't an unheard of occasion. And Space Wolves aren't numerous either. For every battle Dark Angels did with Space Wolves, ritual and all, they probably did a hundred battles allied with Ultramarines-successor-chapter 123 and several thousand with Imperial Guard regiment 7384324.
Space Wolves & Dark Angels allied is almost certainly a more frequent even than .. say ... just the Deathwing all on their own out fighting as a pure force.
Never said they didnt fight with anyone, they just dont choose to often, they dont play well with others.
CHAPTERS, no mega rare, companies or parts of companies, yeah probably happens every now and then, not disputing that at all.
Formosa wrote: This is to the White Knights on here, Yes some people like this strat, some dont like it (or think its in the wrong place like me), no it doesnt fit the fluff, Dark Angels traditionally dont ally well with others, THIS is a part of the fluff, now they DO have a rivalry with the Space Wolves and that is what this Strat is showing, its a fluff ability that encourages (NOT FORCES...) the Dark Angel player to take Allies, something that Dark Angels usually dont like to do if they can avoid it (dont want people snooping around, not to mention they are not trusted and are known for just abandoning there allies), and again this strat is for those times where they happen to be allied with Space Wolves.
It is not whining when people want there Dark Angels traits to only be for Dark Angels and not require an outside army to be able to be used, it is a valid and understandable response to this particular strat, that however does not make this strat utterly worthless IF and only IF you want to take Space Wolf allies, for those that do not, then they have access to one less trait in matched play, had it been 0CP then I am sure no one would have minded, add it in as an army trait (and for space wolves) because if I am allying Space Wolves then I am already splitting my army up and paying points for these other units that cannot share a lot of rules, as it stands now, yes its fluffy, yes it can make some interesting combos but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff and matched play.
DARK ANGELS DO NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS
They're not white knights for pointing out that it's an over the top complaint. I can't wait for this same nonsense when the SW book comes out and has the same ability. And SW will have their own abilities to apply to that portion of the army.
Now heaven help us if there are two such stratagems in the book. The whole internet will gak themselves with rage and make DJT the King of America.
No I am talking to the specific people who no matter what dismiss other peoples concerns just to white knight for games workshop, like it cant get anything wrong, its not over the top its a valid concern, some may have taken it over the top however. I did mention that I wondered if it would end up in the Space Wolves codex, personally I think it will, and yep Wolves have there own abilities, but that doesnt detract from the fact that there is little to no overlap and this strat expects you to take Wolves in a Dark Angel army (and vice versa if the strat goes to the wolves), what about those people who dont want to collect wolves, or just dont like them (cant stand a lot of there models myself, will be getting the HH ones, I think they look nicer, subjective I know), they are not forced to buy those models sure, so they shouldnt have put this strat in the strats part of the book, it should be a side trait.
yes its fluffy...but no it doesnt fit into the established fluff
LOL WUT?
It has been long established in the fluff.
Back in 3rd Ed, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all had special rules when fighting one another.
Just because you're unfamiliar with the history of the game doesn't mean this rule is unfluffy.
I should have been clearer, I know the fluff very well and thank you for pointing out my lack of clarity, this rule for clarity is a very specific minor event in the overall fluff of the Dark Angels, where as them leaving battles to hunt the fallen, ignoring pleas for aid for similar reasons, refusing to work with any Xenos or mutant is more prominent, they are also know for straight up abandoning allies and not wanting the Inquisition around, and now suddenly we have a strat that expects you to ally in a force that Dark Angels distrust and this is from a Distrusting chapter that will not ally mutants, did you forget that rule?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: So, I think the main problem a lot of people are having with this stratagem, is a result of the matched play rules.
At the end of the day, the -vast- majority of games played use the Matched play format (competitive or not), so, as a result, to even use this stratagem you are going to need to spend, at least, a couple of hundred points for a patrol detachment of Wolves (or DA if you’re a SW player). This is simply because of the battleforged rules, and needing to keep each detachment “pure” in order to gain the benefits of each army. Yes, people do play narrative and open play games frequently, but, i would be astounded if the number of games played in those 2 styles comes anywhere close to matching games played using matched play.
Now… If the SW’s got a rule saying something like “1 unit of SW infantry can be included in any Space Marine army and will not have an impact on (or benefit from) the host armies battleforged rules”, it would make things interesting. This would be similar to how Scions work in Astra Militarum, and a way of representing how they were used as “watchful eyes” on the other legions in the Heresy. This would be super cool, fluffy AND make this stratagem actually worth something.
However, without a rule like that, I’m also in the camp of “well, never going to use that”. That is simply because I don’t see the benefits outweighing the cost of a CP (which you’ll be limited on anyway if you have to take a patrol detachment) and the potential cost of 2 wounds on my characters. Sure, it’d benefit the SW model if/when it gets to combat, but as the DA want to be more about shooting right now….
Sure, it’s kinda fluffy, but, currently, I put this stratagem in the same basket as the Admech Scryerskull stratagem…
tneva82 wrote: Suggested elsewhere: that bonus to ws2 guy, goes to ws1. Usually pointless as 1 hits but add power fist...fist that still hits on 2 plus
I wonder how that's gonna work with reroll aura's... on the one hand, he has WS 1+ so a 1 would be a hit but a Power Fist gives it a negative modifier and since rerolls occur before modifiers, you'd not be allowed to reroll 1s since they're technically hits. On the other hand another rule states that hit rolls of 1 are always failures, meaning that you actually would be allowed a reroll. And thus, chaos and a ton of threads full or rage and insults in You Make Da Call ensued...
tneva82 wrote: Suggested elsewhere: that bonus to ws2 guy, goes to ws1. Usually pointless as 1 hits but add power fist...fist that still hits on 2 plus
I wonder how that's gonna work with reroll aura's... on the one hand, he has WS 1+ so a 1 would be a hit but a Power Fist gives it a negative modifier and since rerolls occur before modifiers, you'd not be allowed to reroll 1s since they're technically hits. On the other hand another rule states that hit rolls of 1 are always failures, meaning that you actually would be allowed a reroll. And thus, chaos and a ton of threads full or rage and insults in You Make Da Call ensued...
He will reroll everything. You reroll fail to hits roll. A 1 is always a fail, even if you have ws+1.
Regarding the Inner Circle stratagem; all Masters are supposed to be Inner Circle - so you shouldn't be required to spend a command point on it - and only the Master of the 1st should be Deathwing - so you shouldn't be able to make any old Master Deathwing using a command point.
why does the article say Grim resolve is great for taking large 10 man Deathwing squads when we were already immune to morale? Did we actually get nerfed?
I'm not liking most of this stuff tbh. The psychic powers both seem pretty weak. WC 7 for both which is high to start with, and a roll off for one and a morale check based off the highest LD value in a unit for the other.
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems thus far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
That warlord trait huntsman is just not very good and fairly situational to boot. Looking at the Lion's roar, i'm not really sure what's that different between that and a regular combiplasma.
Brilliant Strategist isn't bad, nice if you have lot's of CPs, which is not too terriblke to do, specially if you use Azreal.
bobafett012 wrote: why does the article say Grim resolve is great for taking large 10 man Deathwing squads when we were already immune to morale? Did we actually get nerfed?
I'm not liking most of this stuff tbh. The psychic powers both seem pretty weak. WC 7 for both which is high to start with, and a roll off for one and a morale check based off the highest LD value in a unit.
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems this far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
That warlors trait huntsman is just not very good and fairly situational to boot. Looking at the Lion's roar, i'm not really sure what's that different between that and a regular combiplasma.
Brilliant Strategist isn't bad, nice if you have lot's of CPs, which is not too terriblke to do, specially if you use Azreal.
The lion's roar has a plasma blaster instead of a plasmagun. IE 18" assault 2 instead of 24" rapid fire 1.
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems this far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
Weapons from the Dark Age is really powerful. It does not need an explanation when combined with Grim Resolve.
Hunt the Fallen is great. Hunt a character, all the terminators get to land and re-roll assaults, just include him in your targets along with everything else.
Fortress of shields is also great. Also, all of these are cheap.
Britlliant Strategist is also a solid ability. Take 6 command points and you really have 8, get 9, you have 12 and a free re-roll.
I do not understand inner circle yet, but I think that is because we don't know the full rules of it.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
Begs the question of how all those new Primaris-style plasma weapons are benefitting from Dark Age tech..?
bobafett012 wrote: why does the article say Grim resolve is great for taking large 10 man Deathwing squads when we were already immune to morale? Did we actually get nerfed?
I'm not liking most of this stuff tbh. The psychic powers both seem pretty weak. WC 7 for both which is high to start with, and a roll off for one and a morale check based off the highest LD value in a unit.
It's a permanent reduction that you can cast each turn. Let's go back to that first stratagem that adds 1 to LD. Not so terrible now.
That warlors trait huntsman is just not very good and fairly situational to boot.
Yea i totally don't want to sniper characters. There are other traits if it doesn't fit your bill.
Looking at the Lion's roar, i'm not really sure what's that different between that and a regular combiplasma.
Really? 2 shots at 18" instead of 2 at 12". Come on.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
Begs the question of how all those new Primaris-style plasma weapons are benefitting from Dark Age tech..?
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
Begs the question of how all those new Primaris-style plasma weapons are benefitting from Dark Age tech..?
Same way a regular style plasma weapon shipped from Forgeworld Hot Stuff to Dark Angels in the 41st millennium will somehow benefit from it. It's clearly modular tech using similar (even similar looking) tech from Pistols to the Leman Russ Executioner and up to Superheavies.
Dark Angels just got an old blinking Dark Age Screwdriver that allows them to tinker with it or something.
This is freaking awesome, where did you find this stuff? I was considering about adding some primaris marines, now those hellblasters fit in very well. Any news about thunder fire cannons in the codex?
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems this far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
I play Deathwing. Plasma cannons on DW is not very good compared to their other load outs, however, i like the shield strategem, helps make Knights become even tougher to kill.
But it sounds like DW actually got nerfed based on what they are saying about grim resolve in the article, because they were fearless before.
This is freaking awesome, where did you find this stuff? I was considering about adding some primaris marines, now those hellblasters fit in very well. Any news about thunder fire cannons in the codex?
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems this far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
I play Deathwing. Plasma cannons on DW is not very good compared to their other load outs, however, i like the shield strategem, helps make Knights become even tougher to kill.
But it sounds like DW actually got nerfed based on what they are saying about grim resolve in the article, because they were fearless before.
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.
changemod wrote: You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.
The Hive Tyrant only pretends. His psychic aura and appearance make him look like he's in the know - just look in his wrinkled face, at the pharaonic beard and the huge brain. Knowing how he fools the prey gives him an additional attack.
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.
Not to mention you could probably get almost 20 Ratlings with Sniper Rifles for the price of that character.
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.
Sure not ideal but you can do 6 wounds with just the Plasma part. Also Im just trying to work with in the limited confines of your own army. You're the one that limited yourself to Deathwing.
I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.
Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.
And to be honest, that relic suck ass. It isn't worth of a relic, just a game option. You have 1 more shoot between 12-18"... thats isn't worth a relic.
I'm not a huge fan of the strategems this far other than fortress of shields, but thats basically a DW Knights only strat.
In an army made of Plasma, with a built in Overcharge defense if you stand still, you are really saying Hellblasters Overcharging with "Weapons from the Dark Age" and thus doing 3 Damage a shot is something you arent a fan of?
So much this. I was going to be happy if they just mitigated the roll of “1” issue. But I also get +1 damage per???
. I don't mind having one or two, but I'd much prefer helmets.
