Just wondering what people who don't play nids think of the new tyranid book.
I know most nid players are pretty happy with it but I've not seen the opinion of many non-players.

Fairly happy in general though again there are some big opportunities that were missed. RIP shrikes

Possitives: they seem to have tried to make everything work, and from what i have seen so far that is working, good job, each hive fleet is unique and the strats are cool.

Cons: IB was changed to be pretty much pointless, Synapse should be - to wounds taken rather than pure ignore morale, thats too good on big units in this Ed.

The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

I don't play them myself but from what I have read they seem to be in a place where they can hold their own against other codices. Probably bet quite hot against anyone stuck with an Index...looking at you DE!

Keep in mind the codex is not out yet.'

The codex seems great. All units seems playable now. Some are a bit weak on paper, termagaunts for instance, but termagaunts can be saved by army wide rules, stragems and command points. Kraken with kaustic blood stratagems for termagaunts would be great.

A lot of our units are vs infantery spesificly. Taking only these will be bad. But there are now many different good units vs armour.

The hive fleets are great, all 7.

Iconic units are now iconic again. Carnifex, hive tyrant, genestealers. It is all good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

I'm half thinking "Deep Striking Devilgaunts = OP" is coming, which should be fun.

Otherwise I committed to a Tyranid collection back in June/July, and it looks like the codex will be fun to use.

 Kanluwen wrote:

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

Or keep pretending commissars are worth taking after the FAQ.

I'm happy with everything other than what appears to be even more powerful shooting...something I hate to see Tyranid get. I'd much rather they were unstoppable melee monsters without such extreme shooting available.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm half thinking "Deep Striking Devilgaunts = OP" is coming, which should be fun.

Otherwise I committed to a Tyranid collection back in June/July, and it looks like the codex will be fun to use.

They always were. I used to play them back when spore pods first got introduced. Fun times were had.

I made this face.


We have some new players in the group since 8th releases. I can't wait.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm happy with everything other than what appears to be even more powerful shooting...something I hate to see Tyranid get. I'd much rather they were unstoppable melee monsters without such extreme shooting available.

I don't know if you have run the numbers on the mathhammer on most tyranids. But none of them can duke it out vs a dreadnought with a powerfirst. So when they design the codex to make us good at shooting, we are not running our S6 trygon into your S14 dreadnoughts.

Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

You mean all the sniper squads you need 150+ points of to kill a singular 30 point model? As well as most armies not having access to snipers in the first place? As well as a single model not exactly being hard to hide out of LOS either on top of those issues?

I mean yeah if you wanna pretend it's super easy go ahead.

That said I was unaware Neurothropes were a synapse creature.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

You mean all the sniper squads you need 150+ points of to kill a singular 30 point model? As well as most armies not having access to snipers in the first place?

There are, at last count, three armies that don't have snipers or an easily accessible sniper facsimilie. Orks, Tyranids, and Genestealer Cultists.

CSM don't really have an excuse anymore since the Renegades & Heretics list is available as an eBook from the Imperial Armour Index that has a whole army list to play with.
Are they great options from R&H(Marauders can have up to 3 models with Sniper Rifles)? Nope--but it's about the same as a purely Astra Militarum <Regiment> list, since Ratlings are Auxilia.

As well as a single model not exactly being hard to hide out of LOS either on top of those issues?

And there it is ladies and gentlemen. The infamous Schrodinger's Commissar. Somehow able to be both hidden out of LOS but remain within 6" of the unit that he's buffing.

I mean yeah if you wanna pretend it's super easy go ahead.

Playing Tau and Guard, yeah it was super easy to do so. Guard it was a matter of shooting through the Conscripts to get at the Commissar, Tau it was a matter of dropping things into terrain and maneuvering behind the Conscript shield.

That said I was unaware Neurothropes were a synapse creature.

Zoanthropes are Synapse.
Neurothropes were an upgrade to Zoanthropes, and since Zoanthropes had Synapse--Neurothropes did too.

Neurothropes are being moved to HQ.

It's not ALWAYS possible to be out of LoS and within 6" of your buffee units, but it's not exactly impossible either. It really depends on the terrain you play with, but I wouldn't call it Schrodinger's Commissar. That would imply that the two states (within 6" of your unit AND out of LoS) are mutually exclusive, which they aren't in the slightest.

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

pinecone77 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

A Flyrant and two or three swarms of rippers (units you'd probably want to take for most lists anyway) is all you really need with the Kronos fleet to deny your opponent access to their most important psychic powers, and should be easy to include in any competitive TAC list. Yes, it costs a detachment, but Tyranids should have no problem fitting a Brigade in cheaply, which should give them all the command points they need.

Taking down Smite spam is nice, but the problem is that doing so is a blanket solution that ends up hurting casters that don't rely on mortal wound spam even more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures.

I guess I shouldn't tell you that there are multiple synapse creature options in the book that aren't monstrous creatures then, huh?

Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

Commissars were pretty easy to take down if you put even a modicum of effort and strategy into it. Y'know, like you're supposed to.

 Fafnir wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

A Flyrant and two or three swarms of rippers (units you'd probably want to take for most lists anyway) is all you really need with the Kronos fleet to deny your opponent access to their most important psychic powers, and should be easy to include in any competitive TAC list. Yes, it costs a detachment, but Tyranids should have no problem fitting a Brigade in cheaply, which should give them all the command points they need.

Taking down Smite spam is nice, but the problem is that doing so is a blanket solution that ends up hurting casters that don't rely on mortal wound spam even more.

If you're not a Smite Spam army, you should be able to take down one Tyrant pretty easy. So, "meta" changer, instead of meta breaker. I think that Aeldari, and Chaos are the most boned by Kronos, as they tend to depend on getting off certain casts, and Kronos is likely to make it hard, rather than shut the whole army down. I'm pretty sure a Web Way Portal will still work, and Berserkers can still chop stuff up...

While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (At 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500. I prefer the 1500 point level quite a bit myself, so it shouldn't affect my casual games too much, but I am concerned for the state of the game -- I dislike seeing strong counter-factions in any context) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

 Fafnir wrote:
While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (At 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500. I prefer the 1500 point level quite a bit myself, so it shouldn't affect my casual games too much, but I am concerned for the state of the game -- I dislike seeing strong counter-factions in any context) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

Yeah, it might be a bit of a wreaking ball on the local "meta"...but I think it's too soon to know for sure, I am thinking of a Kronos strike force of three Winged Tyrants, including a Balethone relic cannon...not a small investment, but I consider it "nessisary" to handle Mortarion, and/or Magnus, for example.

Craftworld just came out, so time may show that Psychers are less "manditory" for victory. Heck after facing a Hydra Fleet, an Aeldari might be wishing for a Kronos Fleet to fight. (Right now it looks like Hydra will be a serious "rush" army)

 Fafnir wrote:
While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (at 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

I think you might be right.
Just being able to break out Deepest Shadow whenever they want to cast Doom would be fairly decisive - far more so than shutting down Malefic Lord #6's Smite.

pinecone77 wrote:

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

Oh my lol, it has been a while since i looked at these. Welcome back to the 90s, oh that horrible basing, could i have used any more of a grim dark palette... geez... well if i bring back my nids these poor things will need a face lift.

As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

clownshoes wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

Spoiler:

Oh my lol, it has been a while since i looked at these. Welcome back to the 90s, oh that horrible basing, could i have used any more of a grim dark palette... geez... well if i bring back my nids these poor things will need a face lift.

By 90s standards those bases are awesome. Nothing says 2e40k/5eWHFB like goblin green bases.

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

Considering its a stratagem and it can only be used once per psychic phase I think you might be a wee bit hyperbolic.

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

The other fun thing to note is that by having a Kronos warlord flyrant in range, you inflict D3 mortal wounds on any model that fails a psychic test. By simply existing in the vicinity with access to the stratagem, a Warlock will get popped 66% of the time just for trying to use a power. So by holding that Stratagem over your head, your Warlocks are effectively deadlocked.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Considering its a stratagem and it can only be used once per psychic phase I think you might be a wee bit hyperbolic.

See above. Much like being on a boat, it's all about the Implication.

The problem with this psychic lockdown is that even if the Eldar player uses their preceeding shooting phase to focus fire the Flyrant down (and they have to, because come turn two, the flyrant is going to start eating people with more than just his mind), they've been forced into that position while the rest of the Tyranid fleet can freely move forward, and the Eldar have already had a significant portion of their synergistic buffs denied to them. In effect, not only are the Eldar put into a situation where they have to give up something, but they've lost their potential to setup any sort of similar situation for their opponent, they're stuck running around trying to put out one fire at a time.

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

Ork shooting is completely eliminated by Alaitoc Eldars.

 Galas wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

Ork shooting is completely eliminated by Alaitoc Eldars.

Ork Shooting is eliminated by a lot of armies right now. They're stuck with an incomplete crap Index that only really allows one build to function. Craftworlds have a codex, the long term solution, which comes with it a higher expectation for the balance and sustainability of the game (and for what it's worth, it's a mostly reasonable book in spite of its issues. It's just facing some serious problems right now between Nids walking all over it for free and Ynnari being stupidly good).

I think maybe Kronos anti-psychics habilities are too good, but I don't think having a anty-psychic Tyranid army is that bad.

It enforces you to try to make more TAC lists, instead of relying on a one trick-pony (If I cast this psychic power this units destroy everything, if not, then I lose). As others have said, is a "meta" change hability.

In a Card Game a Kronos Army would be a "Tech Deck", something you bring when something is very dominathing on the meta.
We have that in the form of units like Sisters of Silence. Everyone and his mother has psychic spam in their armeis? Use SoS's.

This obviously punish psychic-heavy armies. But thats his purpose. They are lacking in fire power and meele bonuses for being Kronos. You are saying like they keep all the other Tyranid bonuses and then on top they gain anty-psychic stuff for free, but that is not the case.
Yeah, mixing Tyranid Hive Fleets they can have a Kronos anti-psychic detachment, but that isn't different that having 2-3 units of SoS on Null-Maiden rhinos in your army. Shoot those things and kill them if they are hurting you strategy.

The more important is the psychic phase in your army, the more are they gonna hurt you. But thats come back to the first thing I said: This encourages more TAC lists. A full Kronos army is gonna be screwed if it goes agaisn't a non-Psychic heavy (Or not psychic powers at all like Necrons or Tau) army, just like a psychic heavy army is gonna be hurt a lot agaisn't a SoS or a Kronos army.

Summarizing: Maybe Kronos bonuses are too good, but I don't think the phylosopy behind them is bad per se.

The problem is that you don't need to run a Kronos army. You only need to run a small Kronos detachment for the full effect. ~250 points for full board coverage, and then you can choose to elect the Kronos flyrant as your warlord IFF you go against a psyker-heavy force. Not to mention that Kronos is the best detachment for gun beasts anyway, so it's not a huge opportunity cost either.

At competitive levels assuming a 2000 point meta, I see this being the face of TAC Tyranids. They have the variability now to do a million and one things (which is good), but throwing in something like this (and being a flyrant, it's a swiss-army-knife as it is) is a no brainer (which is bad).

The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

Which means that when you do try to draw it out, you suffer a 66% chance of having one of your Warlocks explode. So now we give them a body count to go with it. Good.

 Fafnir wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

Which means that when you do try to draw it out, you suffer a 66% chance of having one of your Warlocks explode. So now we give them a body count to go with it. Good.

Lets be honest here. Warlocks suck, and not because Kronos. I don't know the numbers of that stratagem with the Spiritseer but I'm pretty sure they will be much more in Eldar favour.

 Fafnir wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

Which means that when you do try to draw it out, you suffer a 66% chance of having one of your Warlocks explode. So now we give them a body count to go with it. Good.

Oh no! You lost a 35pt model who is apparently your ONLY psyker and absolutly critical to your game plan and there was absolutly no way to work around or avoid this outcome! I totally agree. Nids are OP.

Will the new tyranid codex require people to paint their variant armies in 'exactly' the right colour-schemes for people to play them?

Much like every other army, nope. Especially since splinter fleets don't have paint schemes. Now if someone were to use more than one fleet in an army, I'd hope they would look different since synapse is per fleet.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

Which means that when you do try to draw it out, you suffer a 66% chance of having one of your Warlocks explode. So now we give them a body count to go with it. Good.

Oh no! You lost a 35pt model who is apparently your ONLY psyker and absolutly critical to your game plan and there was absolutly no way to work around or avoid this outcome! I totally agree. Nids are OP.

Listen, as an eldar player this comment..... Made me actually laugh out loud.

I agree, and I look forward to taking on a Kronos army with my Eldar. Honestly I am not worried about it, I would rather have my warlocks pop than deal with 3+ armor save genestealers and 2+ armor save carnifexes.

Azuza001 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The stratagem can only be used once per phase. You have to draw it out just like old dispels. You will mostly be dealing with shadows in the warp and d3 mortal wounds if you fail.

Which means that when you do try to draw it out, you suffer a 66% chance of having one of your Warlocks explode. So now we give them a body count to go with it. Good.

Oh no! You lost a 35pt model who is apparently your ONLY psyker and absolutly critical to your game plan and there was absolutly no way to work around or avoid this outcome! I totally agree. Nids are OP.

Listen, as an eldar player this comment..... Made me actually laugh out loud.

I agree, and I look forward to taking on a Kronos army with my Eldar. Honestly I am not worried about it, I would rather have my warlocks pop than deal with 3+ armor save genestealers and 2+ armor save carnifexes.

In fact, the very fear might lead to less smite spam armies. I'm down like a clown for that.

Sure, you can limit the psychic phase of an army for 1 turn by giving up 200 points and Slay the Warlord. Against an Eldar and maybe Magnus i can see this being a worthy investment, but against everything else?

No, i don't think that a Kronos detachment will be as common as you think.

I'm kinda worried nids might be too good overall. Whereas before their melee was excellent and their shooting was subpar, now their shooting is excellent too. Dakkafex has double the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost. It's basically a punisher Russ that doesn't suck in melee haha.

Powerful shooting is fine and all, but then to also have game -ending superfast melee like genestealers? I dunno. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And there it is ladies and gentlemen. The infamous Schrodinger's Commissar. Somehow able to be both hidden out of LOS but remain within 6" of the unit that he's buffing.

Heard of term congo lines before? Very popular in AOS and works fine in 40k as well seeing rules are essentially same. Works GREAT once you have troops where you want them to stay as you can remove casualties where-ever you wish so you can remove models from the congo line leaving conveniently just the guy near commisar. Sure you are out of coherency but no worries once you are in position you want to be. Conscript's aren't the unit you generally head to enemy DZ anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Will the new tyranid codex require people to paint their variant armies in 'exactly' the right colour-schemes for people to play them?

Does anything? Seeing you can see ultramarine painted models as space wolves or white scars. Or chaos army using space wolf rules...

tneva82 wrote:
Does anything? Seeing you can see ultramarine painted models as space wolves or white scars. Or chaos army using space wolf rules...

"My catachans are mordians"
You can also use beer cans as dreads. Doesn't make it good. Everyone has a breaking point.

ThePorcupine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Does anything? Seeing you can see ultramarine painted models as space wolves or white scars. Or chaos army using space wolf rules...

"My catachans are mordians"
You can also use beer cans as dreads. Doesn't make it good. Everyone has a breaking point.

And what is? "My catachans are mordians" isn't going to cause a blip on radar.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I'm kinda worried nids might be too good overall. Whereas before their melee was excellent and their shooting was subpar, now their shooting is excellent too. Dakkafex has double the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost. It's basically a punisher Russ that doesn't suck in melee haha.

I don't really think a dakkafex is all that in melee.
To take those guns you're giving up its close combat weapons. So it's just working with the 3 S6 WS4+ attacks on its statline, with AP- and 1 damage. That hardly sounds like a melee threat to me.

No it's not all that, I'd go so far as to say it's not great, but its a hell of a lot better than any vehicle. Doesn't it dish out mortal wounds when it charges? And doesn't its WS increase when it charges too? Or is that a separate upgrade.

This Saturday a guy at our store tested out the spoilered Kronos rules against a DG army. It was glorious, the Tyranid player ended up losing since he was trying out a few spoilered Codex rules with Index prices, but from everything I have seen I am really looking forward to facing the bugs.

And although the Kronos rules do seem to be some pretty good anti-Psyker tech... All I have to say is thank goodness. My local meta has begun to spam the everliving heck out of Smite (and why wouldn't you until now), but the fear of running into one of the two Tyranid players (that will most likely be playing Kronos) have made people start to think about making their armies not be one trick Smite ponies anymore.

Arson Fire wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
I'm kinda worried nids might be too good overall. Whereas before their melee was excellent and their shooting was subpar, now their shooting is excellent too. Dakkafex has double the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost. It's basically a punisher Russ that doesn't suck in melee haha.

I don't really think a dakkafex is all that in melee.
To take those guns you're giving up its close combat weapons. So it's just working with the 3 S6 WS4+ attacks on its statline, with AP- and 1 damage. That hardly sounds like a melee threat to me.

I would say that a dakkafex is a punisher Russ that sucks MORE in melee. It's not that pitiful 3 attacks (3 rounds of fighting to kill one marine) that are going to make the difference, but T8 12W against T7 8W will. The dakkafex holds out well in ranged fights thanks to the -1 to hit, but in melee it's an easy target. Since he has range 18" this actually matters a lot.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This Saturday a guy at our store tested out the spoilered Kronos rules against a DG army. It was glorious, the Tyranid player ended up losing since he was trying out a few spoilered Codex rules with Index prices, but from everything I have seen I am really looking forward to facing the bugs.

And although the Kronos rules do seem to be some pretty good anti-Psyker tech... All I have to say is thank goodness. My local meta has begun to spam the everliving heck out of Smite (and why wouldn't you until now), but the fear of running into one of the two Tyranid players (that will most likely be playing Kronos) have made people start to think about making their armies not be one trick Smite ponies anymore.

The problem is armies that really only have that one trick. Like... what the feth is a Tzeentch army supposed to do against Kronos?

Spoletta wrote:
I would say that a dakkafex is a punisher Russ that sucks MORE in melee. It's not that pitiful 3 attacks (3 rounds of fighting to kill one marine) that are going to make the difference, but T8 12W against T7 8W will. The dakkafex holds out well in ranged fights thanks to the -1 to hit, but in melee it's an easy target. Since he has range 18" this actually matters a lot.

And ill raise you a "carnifexes don't degrade". A Russ on its last 3 wounds is effectively out of the game (unless Valhallan).

Anyway, the point is dakkafexes are really powerful and ungodly cheap. Like... transport-level cheap.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This Saturday a guy at our store tested out the spoilered Kronos rules against a DG army. It was glorious, the Tyranid player ended up losing since he was trying out a few spoilered Codex rules with Index prices, but from everything I have seen I am really looking forward to facing the bugs.

And although the Kronos rules do seem to be some pretty good anti-Psyker tech... All I have to say is thank goodness. My local meta has begun to spam the everliving heck out of Smite (and why wouldn't you until now), but the fear of running into one of the two Tyranid players (that will most likely be playing Kronos) have made people start to think about making their armies not be one trick Smite ponies anymore.

The problem is armies that really only have that one trick. Like... what the feth is a Tzeentch army supposed to do against Kronos?

The same thing you would use against another psyker heavy army - Exalted flamers, and Daemon Princes basically. Flamers and burning chariots would also help (but I acknowledge they are not considered as competitive)

I think that it is clear that overall improvements have been made via hive fleets and strategems, however, I still feel that internal balance is still messed up with the actual units.

I feel like this will turn out to be Codex: Kronos Carnifex. Probably still won't see Maleceptors, Haruspex, or Toxicrenes outside of casual play. Tervigon is still overpriced and fragile etc...

Where can one see a summary of the major codex parts?

I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

Shutting down a Warptime, Death Hex, Doom, Da Jump, Vortex of Doom etc. etc. whenever you feel like it and without rolling as long as you have 1 CP will be clutch in a lot of games. It would have been more fair to simply add a bonus to the Deny the Witch roll instead of something completely reliable and cheap as that stratagem.

 D6Damager wrote:
I think that it is clear that overall improvements have been made via hive fleets and strategems, however, I still feel that internal balance is still messed up with the actual units.

I feel like this will turn out to be Codex: Kronos Carnifex. Probably still won't see Maleceptors, Haruspex, or Toxicrenes outside of casual play. Tervigon is still overpriced and fragile etc...

I agree with you on Maleceotors and Toxicrenes but I'm looking forward to usings my Haruspex. Kraken trait + the move again strat will turn it into a giant munchy missile.

 D6Damager wrote:
I think that it is clear that overall improvements have been made via hive fleets and strategems, however, I still feel that internal balance is still messed up with the actual units.

I feel like this will turn out to be Codex: Kronos Carnifex. Probably still won't see Maleceptors, Haruspex, or Toxicrenes outside of casual play. Tervigon is still overpriced and fragile etc...

Carnifices are not that good, they work only in a well balanced nid list. Spamming daffafexes is a recipe for disaster, you will suffer tanks. When you need the combined fire of half your army (8 dakkafexes) to down a razorback and your range is 18", it will not end well.

Dakkafexes are good and 2 or 3 per list will be common, but they are not spammable.

Also, why Kronos?? They will never stay still!

Yeah, everyone is talking about Kronos like it's the second coming of tyrnaids, and it's the one I am least afraid of seeing across the table from me, playing as Eldar, Salamanders, or Chaos Marines. Hell, there are plenty of factions and armies out there that don't care about psychic options. I think you have a greater chance of picking Kronos and finding your opponent took a non-psycic army than you do of taking Jormungander and finding your opponent took Imperial Fists / Iron Warriors.

Spoletta wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
I think that it is clear that overall improvements have been made via hive fleets and strategems, however, I still feel that internal balance is still messed up with the actual units.

I feel like this will turn out to be Codex: Kronos Carnifex. Probably still won't see Maleceptors, Haruspex, or Toxicrenes outside of casual play. Tervigon is still overpriced and fragile etc...

Carnifices are not that good, they work only in a well balanced nid list. Spamming daffafexes is a recipe for disaster, you will suffer tanks. When you need the combined fire of half your army (8 dakkafexes) to down a razorback and your range is 18", it will not end well.

Dakkafexes are good and 2 or 3 per list will be common, but they are not spammable.

Also, why Kronos?? They will never stay still!

I think this is one of those kneejerk reactions to large dice rolls like when people claimed Guardsman lasgun spam could destroy land raiders in a single turn.

Kronos is a mistake. Not looking forward to go against them and it's not because of Kronos shenanigans.

 Knight wrote:
Kronos is a mistake. Not looking forward to go against them and it's not because of Kronos shenanigans.

May I ask why then?

ThePorcupine wrote:
No it's not all that, I'd go so far as to say it's not great, but its a hell of a lot better than any vehicle. Doesn't it dish out mortal wounds when it charges? And doesn't its WS increase when it charges too? Or is that a separate upgrade.

It might dish out one mortal wound on a 4+?

It's low enough damage that it's essentially a vehicle in melee: you're going to use it to charge and soak overwatch and that's it. its damage output is negligible, even against something like guardsmen.

 D6Damager wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

Shutting down a Warptime, Death Hex, Doom, Da Jump, Vortex of Doom etc. etc. whenever you feel like it and without rolling as long as you have 1 CP will be clutch in a lot of games. It would have been more fair to simply add a bonus to the Deny the Witch roll instead of something completely reliable and cheap as that stratagem.

Your absolutly right that it is great against a clutch power. That's the value of it. My argument is that it does mostly nothing against smite spam.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

Shutting down a Warptime, Death Hex, Doom, Da Jump, Vortex of Doom etc. etc. whenever you feel like it and without rolling as long as you have 1 CP will be clutch in a lot of games. It would have been more fair to simply add a bonus to the Deny the Witch roll instead of something completely reliable and cheap as that stratagem.

Your absolutly right that it is great against a clutch power. That's the value of it. My argument is that it does mostly nothing against smite spam.

But it MIGHT kill one Grey Knight a turn if they can't roll a 5+! So broken!

As a non-Nid player, everything I've heard about it makes me want to finally get around to painting those Space Hulk Genestealers I've had assembled for 20+ years and getting some more monsters. So either my armies are scared or my wallet is.

craggy wrote:
As a non-Nid player, everything I've heard about it makes me want to finally get around to painting those Space Hulk Genestealers I've had assembled for 20+ years and getting some more monsters. So either my armies are scared or my wallet is.

Look into behemot, leviathan or hydra as your genestealer armie.

 Niiai wrote:

craggy wrote:
As a non-Nid player, everything I've heard about it makes me want to finally get around to painting those Space Hulk Genestealers I've had assembled for 20+ years and getting some more monsters. So either my armies are scared or my wallet is.

Look into behemot, leviathan or hydra as your genestealer armie.

I don't have the time, or the paint, but might give some of them a go at painting, just for fun, and as a change from other stuff.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

Shutting down a Warptime, Death Hex, Doom, Da Jump, Vortex of Doom etc. etc. whenever you feel like it and without rolling as long as you have 1 CP will be clutch in a lot of games. It would have been more fair to simply add a bonus to the Deny the Witch roll instead of something completely reliable and cheap as that stratagem.

Your absolutly right that it is great against a clutch power. That's the value of it. My argument is that it does mostly nothing against smite spam.

But it MIGHT kill one Grey Knight a turn if they can't roll a 5+! So broken!

It goes deeper than that. You know that every turn, one of your powers is basically guaranteed to fail. And if your opponent isn't stupid (always assume your opponent is smarter than you), you're going to end up losing the one you need most at that time.

In the case of Eldar and the Runes of Battle, that also presents a very good chance of losing the psyker with the power. Yes, a Warlock is only 35 points, but if he's your only caster with Quicken, you're entire army has lost a significant portion of its mobility. Some armies use their psychic powers for big plays, and your opponent will see those coming too. The loss of that Warlock might not just end at that Warlock, it could end up costing the entire squad he was supporting. Alternatively, the ability to deny an early charge could end up allowing the Tyranids to set up and wipe out a large portion of your army in response.

If you measure your psykers just in points to smite value, of course it's not worth much. But if you consider the value of your psykers as force multipliers, you can end up losing a lot to a once-per-turn auto fail (+D3 Mortal wounds).

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I don't think it will affect smite spam armies much. Even if they use the stratagem, smite is still castable and models only suffer the damage near the warlord.
Now realize that most times, it will be just a single -1 to cast due to shadows and it isn't any worse than the other fleets.

Seriously, people are acting lime that stratagem is always in effect and the warlord will always be close by.

The main buffs to the army are ranged attacks at the expense of mobility.

Shutting down a Warptime, Death Hex, Doom, Da Jump, Vortex of Doom etc. etc. whenever you feel like it and without rolling as long as you have 1 CP will be clutch in a lot of games. It would have been more fair to simply add a bonus to the Deny the Witch roll instead of something completely reliable and cheap as that stratagem.

Your absolutly right that it is great against a clutch power. That's the value of it. My argument is that it does mostly nothing against smite spam.

But it MIGHT kill one Grey Knight a turn if they can't roll a 5+! So broken!

It goes deeper than that. You know that every turn, one of your powers is basically guaranteed to fail. And if your opponent isn't stupid (always assume your opponent is smarter than you), you're going to end up losing the one you need most at that time.

In the case of Eldar and the Runes of Battle, that also presents a very good chance of losing the psyker with the power. Yes, a Warlock is only 35 points, but if he's your only caster with Quicken, you're entire army has lost a significant portion of its mobility. Some armies use their psychic powers for big plays, and your opponent will see those coming too. The loss of that Warlock might not just end at that Warlock, it could end up costing the entire squad he was supporting. Alternatively, the ability to deny an early charge could end up allowing the Tyranids to set up and wipe out a large portion of your army in response.

If you measure your psykers just in points to smite value, of course it's not worth much. But if you consider the value of your psykers as force multipliers, you can end up losing a lot to a once-per-turn auto fail (+D3 Mortal wounds).

But again there are ways to play around it. Especially if you KNOW that Kronos is going to be across the table from you. You aren't just going to blindly wander into their Shadow/Stratagem range if you know they might explode your psykers brain. Using your own example you can easily use Quicken from outside the 18" psyker-death bubble if you plan ahead a bit and are careful with your ranges. All the Kronos Problem does is force you to actually consider your positioning and that is in no way a bad thing.

A lot of what you're suģgesting relies on the Eldar player being completly braindead.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Dakkafexes... I think this is one of those kneejerk reactions to large dice rolls like when people claimed Guardsman lasgun spam could destroy land raiders in a single turn.

And I think they're being underestimated honestly. And I don't think anyone's expecting these things to pop landraiders... Though it will put a couple wounds on any 3+ vehicles... I just crunched the numbers and a Punisher tank commander w/3 heavy bolters is exactly twice the cost of a dakkafex and does twice (give or take 1 or 2 percentage points) the expected wounds against guardsmen, marines, gaunts, and genestealers (even after firing punisher turret twice).

A 105 point dakkafex (without any faction bonuses) is expected to kill...
8.89 guardsmen per turn
3.56 marines per turn
11.1 gaunts per turn
7.11 genestealers per turn

Unsurprisingly punishers are a staple in a lot of guard lists. I fully expect dakkafexes to be a staple just the same. If I played nids I'd probably take three or four. 420 points gives all the infantry killing power you'll ever need... probably.

But this is all from a guard player's point of view. It could be that nids don't even need anti-infantry specialist. Who knows haha.

 Sim-Life wrote:

But again there are ways to play around it. Especially if you KNOW that Kronos is going to be across the table from you. You aren't just going to blindly wander into their Shadow/Stratagem range if you know they might explode your psykers brain. Using your own example you can easily use Quicken from outside the 18" psyker-death bubble if you plan ahead a bit and are careful with your ranges. All the Kronos Problem does is force you to actually consider your positioning and that is in no way a bad thing.

A lot of what you're suģgesting relies on the Eldar player being completly braindead.

First off, if we start talking about tailored lists, everything goes out the window. Second of all:

Tyranid player gets turn one (they will have more command points, they'll be able to afford the rerolls if they need them). Tyranid player deep strikes Rippers into position (24" stratagem range), and then rushes a flyrant up the table with Metabolic Movement (average 39"), dropping an 18" radius bubble of SITW and Kronos effects, as well as a 24" bubble of stratagem range around your greatest congregation of psykers (at this point, the Rippers aren't particularly necessary, but we'll assume that they're to ensure full table coverage. Alternatively, your opponent can throw them down after the Flyrant dies for further turns of psychic denial). They then rush their Kraken forces up the table, setting themselves up for a turn 2 charge (if they have shooting stuff, they do that too, we'll also assume that there's no other janky turn 1 reserves or fighty stuff to add further pressure, they'll essentially give you a free turn aside from the lone Flyrant for this example).


Your psychic phase is pretty neutered at this point, as well as the big plays that go with it. With an 18" range on your powers, and the huge bubble presented by the Flyrant and Friends, there's really no safe way to set your psykers up (and even if you do manage to make some safe spots, odds are that those safe spots will be far enough away from the relevant combat zone that those psykers will not be contributing to the fight).

Your opponent has essentially left the Flyrant up as an offering, but in doing so, that's firepower that would be directed away from the rest of the swarm. That said, you're in a position where you have to kill that Flyrant, or else it will ravage your squishies while still putting up that bubble of denial. At T7, W12, and 4++, you're going to have to put in some significant firepower to take it down. Regardless of how you handle it, the Tyranids get their turn 2 charge into your lines, and now you're in serious trouble, because that one Flyrant has denied not just most of your psychic shenanigans, but also forced you to siphon most of your own offenses into it just by being present. While the Tyranid player can put you into a situation where you're forced to make some sacrifices for free, you yourself are compromised in that end, and it becomes very difficult to mount the offenses of your own to put your opponent in a similar position.

That whole last paragraph is literally what Nids tactics have always been. The term "Distraction Carnifex" wasn't a theory that someone drempt up.

You're basically complaing that Nids are now played the way they're supposed to play rather than spamming the only one or two units that work well.

Losing your warlord isn't exactly free either.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

But again there are ways to play around it. Especially if you KNOW that Kronos is going to be across the table from you. You aren't just going to blindly wander into their Shadow/Stratagem range if you know they might explode your psykers brain. Using your own example you can easily use Quicken from outside the 18" psyker-death bubble if you plan ahead a bit and are careful with your ranges. All the Kronos Problem does is force you to actually consider your positioning and that is in no way a bad thing.

A lot of what you're suģgesting relies on the Eldar player being completly braindead.

First off, if we start talking about tailored lists, everything goes out the window. Second of all:

Tyranid player gets turn one (they will have more command points, they'll be able to afford the rerolls if they need them). Tyranid player deep strikes Rippers into position (24" stratagem range), and then rushes a flyrant up the table with Metabolic Movement (average 39"), dropping an 18" radius bubble of SITW and Kronos effects, as well as a 24" bubble of stratagem range around your greatest congregation of psykers (at this point, the Rippers aren't particularly necessary, but we'll assume that they're to ensure full table coverage. Alternatively, your opponent can throw them down after the Flyrant dies for further turns of psychic denial). They then rush their Kraken forces up the table, setting themselves up for a turn 2 charge (if they have shooting stuff, they do that too, we'll also assume that there's no other janky turn 1 reserves or fighty stuff to add further pressure, they'll essentially give you a free turn aside from the lone Flyrant for this example).


Your psychic phase is pretty neutered at this point, as well as the big plays that go with it. With an 18" range on your powers, and the huge bubble presented by the Flyrant and Friends, there's really no safe way to set your psykers up (and even if you do manage to make some safe spots, odds are that those safe spots will be far enough away from the relevant combat zone that those psykers will not be contributing to the fight).

Your opponent has essentially left the Flyrant up as an offering, but in doing so, that's firepower that would be directed away from the rest of the swarm. That said, you're in a position where you have to kill that Flyrant, or else it will ravage your squishies while still putting up that bubble of denial. At T7, W12, and 4++, you're going to have to put in some significant firepower to take it down. Regardless of how you handle it, the Tyranids get their turn 2 charge into your lines, and now you're in serious trouble, because that one Flyrant has denied not just most of your psychic shenanigans, but also forced you to siphon most of your own offenses into it just by being present. While the Tyranid player can put you into a situation where you're forced to make some sacrifices for free, you yourself are compromised in that end, and it becomes very difficult to mount the offenses of your own to put your opponent in a similar position.

The big problem with all of this is that your presupposing that the Eldar player is relying entirely on his Psychic powers to do work. That sounds like a terrible Eldar player.

I love seeing guard players complain about tyranids. Like we have an answer for your 36D6 mortar shots every turn. I mean come on.

And you could crush Tyranids pre-codex without using psychic powers at all with Eldar shooting. And guard shooting. So yeah. No sympathy whatsoever. Oh and "what about tzeentch daemons," lol, you have Magnus, you get +2 to cast. You can literally roll an 8 with 1 d6.

Sim-Life wrote:That whole last paragraph is literally what Nids tactics have always been. The term "Distraction Carnifex" wasn't a theory that someone drempt up.

You're basically complaing that Nids are now played the way they're supposed to play rather than spamming the only one or two units that work well.

The entire point is that the distraction carnifex now gains the ability to deny the better part of an entire phase before it even gets down to sucking up firepower, in addition to the mobility needed to harass whatever it wants to as it wants to. No, it's not a new strategy. It's just much, much more potent in the hands of this hive fleet.

SideshowLucifer wrote:Losing your warlord isn't exactly free either.

And you don't have to nominate him as your Warlord for that specific matchup unless you want to. But if there are a healthy number of 2W psykers milling about (that said, Warlocks are garbage, but squeezing the points sometimes make them a necessity), that's added pressure should you desire it. It's a cherry on top of an already very threatening cake.

Imateria wrote:
The big problem with all of this is that your presupposing that the Eldar player is relying entirely on his Psychic powers to do work. That sounds like a terrible Eldar player.

While psychic control alone isn't enough to lock down an entire game, my point is that the dominance over the psychic phase comes at very little cost (because as someone mentioned above, the Distraction Carnifex strategy isn't exactly new, the Tyranid player is likely to employ something similar anyway) in addition to the already very threatening matchup that the new Tyranids look to be able to bring to the Eldar before the element of psychic denial comes into play.

Marmatag wrote:I love seeing guard players complain about tyranids. Like we have an answer for your 36D6 mortar shots every turn. I mean come on.

And you could crush Tyranids pre-codex without using psychic powers at all with Eldar shooting. And guard shooting. So yeah. No sympathy whatsoever. Oh and "what about tzeentch daemons," lol, you have Magnus, you get +2 to cast. You can literally roll an 8 with 1 d6.

Ynnari were fine. Craftworld Eldar were garbage pre-codex (they're okay now, while Ynnari might have gotten a bit ridiculous with those point reductions--not sure on that).

 Marmatag wrote:
I love seeing guard players complain about tyranids. Like we have an answer for your 36D6 mortar shots every turn. I mean come on.

And you could crush Tyranids pre-codex without using psychic powers at all with Eldar shooting. And guard shooting. So yeah. No sympathy whatsoever. Oh and "what about tzeentch daemons," lol, you have Magnus, you get +2 to cast. You can literally roll an 8 with 1 d6.

I think nids would restrict him to a 7.

 Galas wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

Ork shooting is completely eliminated by Alaitoc Eldars.

Ironically Ork Psychics is only mildly affected by the Kronos anti-psyker shenanigans. We can still smite-spam like always.

And you already blow up your psykers

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
And you already blow up your psykers

That is why we have painboyz. To fix the brainz of perilled weirdboyz

 Sim-Life wrote:
Just wondering what people who don't play nids think of the new tyranid book.
I know most nid players are pretty happy with it but I've not seen the opinion of many non-players.

We can't get it yet. :(

As a Tyranid player I'm amused by the reaction to Kronos. When I first read over the traits, the counter psychic was less interesting than the shooting buffs. I see a choice between several assault Hive Fleets and a Shooty Hive Fleet, because I don't lose games to spells. I lose games to not being able to make cc with enough bodies, or to not being able to kill vehicles.

I think Kronos is going to be scary because Exocrines, Tyranofexes, Hive Guard and Biovores are all strong and don't care about mmoving, which interests me far more than the counter psycher tricks.

babelfish wrote:
As a Tyranid player I'm amused by the reaction to Kronos. When I first read over the traits, the counter psychic was less interesting than the shooting buffs. I see a choice between several assault Hive Fleets and a Shooty Hive Fleet, because I don't lose games to spells. I lose games to not being able to make cc with enough bodies, or to not being able to kill vehicles.

I think Kronos is going to be scary because Exocrines, Tyranofexes, Hive Guard and Biovores are all strong and don't care about mmoving, which interests me far more than the counter psycher tricks.

But if we don't explode in a tide of hyperbole and exaggerations with every little piece of information. What would we talk about in these forums?

 Galas wrote:

babelfish wrote:
As a Tyranid player I'm amused by the reaction to Kronos. When I first read over the traits, the counter psychic was less interesting than the shooting buffs. I see a choice between several assault Hive Fleets and a Shooty Hive Fleet, because I don't lose games to spells. I lose games to not being able to make cc with enough bodies, or to not being able to kill vehicles.

I think Kronos is going to be scary because Exocrines, Tyranofexes, Hive Guard and Biovores are all strong and don't care about mmoving, which interests me far more than the counter psycher tricks.

But if we don't explode in a tide of hyperbole and exaggerations with every little piece of information. What would we talk about in these forums?

The game at all levels instead of just the most competitive?

 D6Damager wrote:
I think that it is clear that overall improvements have been made via hive fleets and strategems, however, I still feel that internal balance is still messed up with the actual units.

I feel like this will turn out to be Codex: Kronos Carnifex. Probably still won't see Maleceptors, Haruspex, or Toxicrenes outside of casual play. Tervigon is still overpriced and fragile etc...

Disagree, Maleceptor got much better, and could be a nice. Haruspexes got cheaper by a good degree,a nd are still decent at killing infantry. Toxicrenes have also changed in price, making them slightly more attractive. The Tervigon? I can't say as every time I've used one, it's done what I wanted it to. Stayed alive and supported Gant gunsquads with smite and the occasional catalyst where needed. With the new Hive Fleet rules, the artefacts, and how the rest of the units play out, it may be an okay unit to toss in.

But really, it'll be Hive Fleet Kronos Artillary Beasts. Tyrannofexes, Exocrines, and Hive Guard bubbled by Malanthropes along side cheap Brigades with Nuerothropes at the core to spam strats.

I'me very happy with this, ltos fo good fluff stratagems, and a few ways to completely change how you play.

I also like the new IB, Tyranids low LD already was screwed without Synapse, IB was a double hitter and needed a nerf.

The new Dakka tho IMO outshines the melee, but there is still room for large melee, Genestealers and Hgants are stronger than ever, Melee DSing do to wings with +1 charge and re-roll is amazing!

babelfish wrote:
I think Kronos is going to be scary because Exocrines, Tyranofexes, Hive Guard and Biovores are all strong and don't care about mmoving, which interests me far more than the counter psycher tricks.

They get all that plus the psyker shenanigans and cool artifact weapon. They will be a popular choice for competitive play.

I've been collecting tyranids for a year now, and painted them into Behemoth colours. The arrival of the new codex came as a suprise, so soon. I am very clad that the behemoth has still its use, reroll on charge is good and useful since I play very heavy on alpha strike. I am planning to get more tyranids, maybe 2-3 trygons, 3x haruspex in a Tyrannocyte, biovores and lictors.

The Kronos fleet, while not overpowered, is a very good counter to psykers in general. And the miasma gun is very good vs demons.

 Spreelock wrote:
I've been collecting tyranids for a year now, and painted them into Behemoth colours. The arrival of the new codex came as a suprise, so soon. I am very clad that the behemoth has still its use, reroll on charge is good and useful since I play very heavy on alpha strike. I am planning to get more tyranids, maybe 2-3 trygons, 3x haruspex in a Tyrannocyte, biovores and lictors.

Yeah, I don't think you'll regret playing Behemoth. Good luck, and good hunting!

It seems that the Hive fleet Hydra stratagem is basically the same as the Valhallan stratagem, except not useless in matched play.

...unless GWs decides that it costs reinforcement points too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

You mean all the sniper squads you need 150+ points of to kill a singular 30 point model? As well as most armies not having access to snipers in the first place? As well as a single model not exactly being hard to hide out of LOS either on top of those issues?

I mean yeah if you wanna pretend it's super easy go ahead.

That said I was unaware Neurothropes were a synapse creature.

Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

Also, why would you want to prioritize neutralizing Commissars? It's not as if Summary Execution is giving your opponent some massive edge anymore.

 sfshilo wrote:
Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

I can't believe that there are still people who think flamers are effective at their job

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

I can't believe that there are still people who think flamers are effective at their job

May I introduce you to the tyranofex? 18", 4D6 autohits, S7, Ap -1 1d3 damage.

That sounds pretty good, assuming the cost is reasonable. It's also A) absolutely not what I was talking about and B) almost certainly more cost effective against elite infantry than hordes, just like every other "anti-horde" weapon.

 Niiai wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

I can't believe that there are still people who think flamers are effective at their job

May I introduce you to the tyranofex? 18", 4D6 autohits, S7, Ap -1 1d3 damage.

Kills, on average, 38.89 points of Guardsmen, or 60.67 points of Marines.

That's much more efficient against the bigger stuff than the littler stuff.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
That sounds pretty good, assuming the cost is reasonable. It's also A) absolutely not what I was talking about and B) almost certainly more cost effective against elite infantry than hordes, just like every other "anti-horde" weapon.

Like king kong it will swat flyers out of the sky. But it is a flamer. ^_^

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

I can't believe that there are still people who think flamers are effective at their job

May I introduce you to the tyranofex? 18", 4D6 autohits, S7, Ap -1 1d3 damage.

Kills, on average, 38.89 points of Guardsmen, or 60.67 points of Marines.

That's much more efficient against the bigger stuff than the littler stuff.

Huh, so it will outright kill a regular Infantry Squad (38.89 points of Guardsmen is 9-10 models) or a min sized Space Marine Squad. Conscripts meanwhile will have a nice +10 to their morale roll - without a Commissar meaning 7-12 extra losses, with a Commissar 4-9 (factoring in the mandatory blamming since you physically cannot pass). While in terms of points killed, yes, it favors the marines, you can't ignore the fact that this can render a screen into a pile of blood smears in a single shooting phase, granted you can get it into that 18" in the first place...

Then again, this means nothing to people who still have to tote around regular flamers vs hordes, which was the original point.

I love my land speeder with dual heavy flamers. Yes it's an index unit only at this point but 3 of these guys do really well at killing squads of horde units. Are they "cost effective"? Can't say, but they have done great the last few times I took them out killing genestealers, termagaunts, and tyrnaid warriors (not all in the same game, don't want to give people the wrong ideas).

To be fair I got lucky with the genestealers, player tried to cast catalyst on them and rolled snake eyes. Used a command point to reroll and got another one. So I knew I had to kill that squad asap, 5++/5+++ genestealers are such a pain to try and get rid of.

Other than that, I always give my srg in my tactical squad a combi flamer just for overwatch help. They have a place in the game and seem to do ok for me, got lucky and killed a carnifex on overwatch once with a normal flamer (granted it was a despite charge from a carnifex with 1 wound left, but still...)

So, back to the topic. I got my copy of codex today, and I m pleased for all good stuff my behemoth gets. Another exciting thing was hydra fleet, I might be doing add-on to my force. After all, previous apocalypse, and the endless swarm, got me into collecting tyranids.

I think it's a great book. Picked up my copy this morning and have read it cover to cover. The army list is great, building on the reimagining in the Index and dragging just about every unit into the "very usable" category. There are very few 'dud' options.

The presentation is great; a lot of the classic Tyranid fluff is still in there (this time without most of the glaring grammar errors, which to me is proof that someone actually proof-read this thing) but there is plenty of new fluff to sink your teeth into as well. The 'vibe' of the book is very much the apocalyptic tone of the 4th Edition book (and to a lesser degree the 3rd), which is very welcome. There are plenty of Tyranid defeats, but the overall tone is still "you're doomed".

Well worth mentioning directly is that the book doesn't shy away from Tyranids vs Chaos. It would have been impossible not to address this given the changes made to the setting for 8th, and I think it's very well handled; the Tyranids are depicted as they should be, a monster about to close its jaws around the galaxy, but this doesn't diminish the threat of Chaos at all for once. It's best exemplified by the wonderful art on pages 4/5, which is a huge Khorne host charging headlong into a Leviathan swarm, with a massive betentacled Toxicrene rearing out of the tide of aliens to meet a Bloodthirster. There's no indication to who will win when all is said and done, and the real take-home thought is that everyone else is going to be minced in the crossfire.

There's plenty of new art as well, with a fairly consistent style, to bind the different threads of the book together. Even the layout of the book seems fairly logical; in the past I've found myself randomly flipping from one end of a codex to another trying to find the rules I'm looking for. Not so with this one (thus far).

Big thumbs up to GW for this one; a Tyranid book written by someone who seems to care for the subject matter, handling it respectfully and competently.

Woohoo!

 Spreelock wrote:
So, back to the topic. I got my copy of codex today, and I m pleased for all good stuff my behemoth gets. Another exciting thing was hydra fleet, I might be doing add-on to my force. After all, previous apocalypse, and the endless swarm, got me into collecting tyranids.

Beware of the inevitable upcoming FAQ though. If "endless swarm" gets the same treatment as summoned daemons and Valhallans, it might not be so great after all.

No FAQ needed. It's pretty apparent that you pay points for it.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
No FAQ needed. It's pretty apparent that you pay points for it.

Sadly If anything a FAQ would say Not to pay points, at that point it starts being useful...but it works just fine for power point games.

Yeah, paying in points for summon/spawn is one of the most stupid things GW has made. It's clearly to counter summon hordes becoming too overpowered, it took a while to get used to it, but now I'm okay with paying the points for spawning.

It comes from AoS and past experience with daemons. It's too way too easy to double the points value of an army.

Umm did no one play 6th and 7th against summon spam? Best change in 8th IMHO.

Back on topic, I'm loving the new dex. The various strain adaptations, strategems, and warlord traits are amazing. My list went down almost 50pts while obviously gaining all the rules.

Big winners are flying hive tyrants, nuerothropes, genestealers, carnifexes, and surprisingly devourer termagants due to the double shoot strategem.

Bought the iPad Tyranid Enhanced Digital version. I was able to find the weapon point costs, but I can't seem to find the unit point costs. Anyone else have this problem? I have literally searched every page!

shrouk wrote:
Bought the iPad Tyranid Enhanced Digital version. I was able to find the weapon point costs, but I can't seem to find the unit point costs. Anyone else have this problem? I have literally searched every page!

I don't have it yet. This is the second comment now that I have read that the Enhanced Digital version is missing something. Can't remember what the first person said, so I think I will now wait to get this till it's fixed. Sorry I couldn't be of help. But it seems GW dropped the ball on this one.

I don't have the digital edition myself, but I heard someone mention something about tapping the power icon in the header of the unit profile to bring up point costs in a pop-up.

Genestealers look really good right now.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Genestealers look really good right now.

Agreed here, hitting on a 3+ that if I read right becomes a 2+ in a brood lord is nearby, then being able to re-roll ones if using talons is as near automatic hits as your going to get, and in decent sized blocks four attacks each..

ouch.

not too expensive either, plus decently mobile.

Downside is they are fragile and live in a book that has cheaper bodies for spam, but I'm liking them.

Liking even more having some 60 off of them and a pair of brood lords currently

Does the add +1 to the hit rolls for Genestealers from the Broodlord mean that Toxin Sacs trigger on a 5+ and Rending Claws trigger on a 5+ as well?

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Does the add +1 to the hit rolls for Genestealers from the Broodlord mean that Toxin Sacs trigger on a 5+ and Rending Claws trigger on a 5+ as well?

No. The +1 is to hit, and those proc on wounds.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Does the add +1 to the hit rolls for Genestealers from the Broodlord mean that Toxin Sacs trigger on a 5+ and Rending Claws trigger on a 5+ as well?

Nope, but Gorgon (the toxic fleet ) Has a Strat that lets units with Toxic activate on 5+

It's a"Kanluwen tries to compare 80-100 point models to a 30 point model" episode.

Oh Kan, your consistency is truly admirable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:


Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a
Or you could take something that kills constripts quickly like flame thrower specist squads, lightning claw assault units, or the good old Khorne Beserker or three......

If you can't kill constripts.......maybe you have the wrong weapons?

Yeah dude come on. If you dedicate 400 points of shooting or assault purely toward killing conscripts every turn, you'll surely chew through those 90 3 point models by turn 6!

I'm not wrong in thinking the Miasma Cannon autohits on overwatch if the charging unit starts within 8" am I?

Infiltrating Genestealers within 6" of a Lictor with Pheromone Trail - amazing.
Deepstriking Fleshborer Termagants with Scorch Bugs + Single Minded Annihilation - kills a lot of scrubs, possibly hurts a lot of other stuff too, especially with a Tervigon nearby.

There's a lot of good stuff in there. Nothing that makes me scream bloody murder though, unlike the AM codex.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm not wrong in thinking the Miasma Cannon autohits on overwatch if the charging unit starts within 8" am I?

No, I think you're right with that interpretation. Within 8" it hits no differently than a flamer.