Don't have an Ultramarine force myself but I always found the community's distaste for them perplexing. It seems like Matt Ward was what really got people's goat and the use of them in the promotional material. I always saw them the same as every other space marine chapter, they're just a spin on a historical group or animal.

White Scars=Space Mongols
Ultramarines=Space Romans
Dark Angels=Space Knights
Space Wolves=Obligatory Viking Faction
Salamanders=... well, space salamanders

and so on.

So idk, do people still hate on the little blue men, or have they let the Matt Ward stuff go?

Blavk Templars are space knights.

And yes the hate is there. As such, this topic is probably asking for trouble.

They are the most boring chapter literally the only way to make them interesting is to have one that goes and ignores the rules that define the chapter.

Matt ward saying all other chapters look up to them is where the hate started before that we just ignored them.

As for space romans no they arnt they are far too watered down from what real romans were like.

Death to all smurfs!

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Blavk Templars are space knights.

And yes the hate is there. As such, this topic is probably asking for trouble.

Both kind of are, there is some crossover in their design. Templar are more specifically crusader designed though.

and yeah it seems so, apparently a touchy subject.


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hobojebus wrote:
They are the most boring chapter

what makes you think that? I just don't see how they are any different then all other chapters?.

I'm not sure what watered down means in the context of 40k. If White Scars or Space Wolves acted at all like their historical counterparts they would be chaos legions. I would argue all chapters are "watered down", its more about the aesthetic.

They're a mary sue chapter, led by a plot armor covered gary sue in the form of Gulliman.

Loyalist Marines in general are pretty dull, and Ultramarines are the "most" Loyalist Marines, which makes them the dullest of them all.

Yes

I hate all space marines, but the ultrasmurffs are just so much more fun to hate on.

GW does them no favors, look at the codex schedule. Chapter codices coming out two in one month meanwhile core xenos factions are looking at their indexes.

Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

clownshoes wrote:
Yes

I hate all space marines, but the ultrasmurffs are just so much more fun to hate on.

GW does them no favors, look at the codex schedule. Chapter codexs coming out two in one month meanwhile core xenos factions are looking at their indexes.

Considering that Space Marines make up over 50% of all total GW product sales it kinda makes good business sense to see to the largest population of players first with a new codex and set of rules. Also lets not forget the index are still pretty darn good already so its not as if the xeno factions are unplayable. Besides within two three months time all of 8th edition will be updated to new rules.

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Being the poster boys has also made them a victim of a lot of poor writing. A lot of our characters can be summed up as “I’m the best <blank>” even when they shouldn’t be. I just chalk that up to the fact that all the books are basically in-game non-reliable propaganda. And the fact they they get most of the limelight, means they get a proportional share of the crap writing.

But if you want the real mary sue/plot armor chapter, look to the Space Wolves. They are FAR worse in that regard then the Ultras.

I think a lot of the Ultra hate is just echos of 5th, and Ward’s really bad fluff/comments. The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

 Nevelon wrote:
The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

And that sums up a lot of internet hate.

I seriously doubt there's many who honestly hate marines or ultramarines. Jealous of their priority in release schedules and their number of models and upgrades; but actual real hate I doubt there's many. A vocal few who might well scream loud online where its easy to dominate a discussion by just posting lots or by making a few websites.

Vanilla Marines are boring to play.
GW uses UM as showcase army for the gaming system of 40k praising their strength and ''boldness''.

I don't like SM in general, with the exception of a couple of specific independent chapters, which are SW and BA.

But I really hate ultramarines. How they look, their style of play, how they are common and overpowered.

Their LoW is IMHO the ugliest miniature in the entire GW catalogue.

 Blackie wrote:
I don't like SM in general, with the exception of a couple of specific independent chapters, which are SW and BA.

But I really hate ultramarines. How they look, their style of play, how they are common and overpowered.

Their LoW is IMHO the ugliest miniature in the entire GW catalogue.

Marines over-powered, lol wut?

I'm pretty sure I could take on and win pretty easily with 1500 Deathguard/CSM/Renegades vs 2000 Space Marines

Guilliman is a travesty of a figure. Other than that - never seen Ultramarines played in person (which is odd considering how many Guillimans seem to show up...).

They are the most milquetoast of the Space Marines but I don't see any reason to hate them. I despise the model range/aesthetic of Space Wolves ten fold more.

Space marine minis aren’t that bad are they? Or it’s cause I play dark angels. Either way, Guilliman is a really really bad sculpt. The face is just... scarring to look at.

Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

The "hate" for Ultramarines I think is due to Games Workshop laziness: it is easier to focus on one "faction" as the "poster-boy" for Space Marines and they are it.
There are many people who play SMs and you can get pretty sick of seeing them everywhere like they are the only group out there.
Playing any other army you feel like a bit of a stepson to the family: included but not favored.

Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them. They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact? I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

Ultramarines are the 40k embodiment of the New England patriots. That is why they are hated.


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 RedCommander wrote:
Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them. They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact? I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

They are experts at everything - their "Special trait" is being master tacticians though. Every chapter that doesn't drink blood or become werewolves aspires to be like the ultra marines - evident by the fact that they have the most chapters built after them - and by the fact they literally tell you that every chapter aspires to be like the ultra marines. Some people just don't by into all the discipline and order the ultras put out - they prefer their armies to be messy and emotional.

the_scotsman wrote:Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

If there's a Chapter that does that, it's the Space Wolves.

Bigger than most other Chapters? Yup.
Gets to practically rebel against the Inquisition and get off scot free? Yup.
Gets to be wild and feral, but only because they're so smart and cunning? Yup (this is true, by the way. The Space Wolves claim that all their wildness and savagery is just a method to lull the enemy into a false sense of security?)
"We don't have PSYKERS we have RUNE PRIESTS who don't use the Warp so we're pure but your psykers aren't".
Has the oldest Space Marine alive.
The terribly uninspired naming structure.
Flanderisation of their Wolf aspect.
Experts in close combat, ranged warfare (because their veterans are the ranged specialists), naval warfare, psychic/anti-psychic warfare (because we don't use the warp), armoured warfare, etc etc.
Returned powerful mutated warriors who the Imperium largely accepts, because...?

The list goes on. Space Wolves are far worse written than Ultramarines.

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

Is that a problem? If the preset is what people want, then why is that a problem?

You're largely missing that Ultramarines are only "bland" because of overexposure. Because they're the most frequently seen, their style is seen as generic, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Take the HH series, where Ultramarines aren't exposed so much, and see how their culture differs from every other Legion. They have a distinct style, which is allowed to show because they aren't being treated as the poster boys.

RedCommander wrote:Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them.

Citation needed. Of course, that IS subjective, but have you actually read a HH book on the Ultramarines?

They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact?

No they're looked up to because of the fact their Primarch wrote the Codex - the strategic manual pretty much every Space Marine Chapter adheres to, and that their battle-record is second-to-none, during the Great Crusade and after it. The Ultramarines are incredibly disciplined and by-the-book - and THAT'S probably why there's such a stigma.
In Western culture now, it's seen as a negative to follow the rules and be the straight-man. Chapters like the Space Wolves who "stick it to the man" and generally rebel are popular for that, the White Scars and Raven Guard popular for their wildness and, in the latter's case, edginess. Most of the others are flanderised around a certain style (Salamanders with their flames, White Scars with their bikes etc etc), but Ultramarines aren't flanderised to their Roman/Greek nature. Instead, they're taken to the extreme of "stick to the book and be orderly", which isn't often supported in pop culture. Being a generalist means that they're not as cool or edgy compared to most Chapters who exaggerate their style.

I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

Again, I am sure that if another Chapter was placed in the seat of "generalist", the Greco/Roman aspects of the Ultramarines would be able to show off more. By being the poster boys, GW has to make sure they're not TOO unique so that they can be used a baseline of what a Standard Space Marine is.


Again, as Nevelon said, they do have a very real weakness in universe. Their own adherence to the Codex, their pride, hubris and glory can get the better of them. Unlike a great many Chapters who say they have a downside, only the Ultramarines have that downside affect them from a meta level too. They don't need crippling mutations or a dark secret to be flawed. Sometimes, their own success can be a breeding ground for more issues. Hell, the Battle for Macragge during the Tyrannic Wars showed that they had a very real inflexibility with the Codex, something they worked on after the battle. That's called character development.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

If there's a Chapter that does that, it's the Space Wolves.

Bigger than most other Chapters? Yup.
Gets to practically rebel against the Inquisition and get off scot free? Yup.
Gets to be wild and feral, but only because they're so smart and cunning? Yup (this is true, by the way. The Space Wolves claim that all their wildness and savagery is just a method to lull the enemy into a false sense of security?)
"We don't have PSYKERS we have RUNE PRIESTS who don't use the Warp so we're pure but your psykers aren't".
Has the oldest Space Marine alive.
The terribly uninspired naming structure.
Flanderisation of their Wolf aspect.
Experts in close combat, ranged warfare (because their veterans are the ranged specialists), naval warfare, psychic/anti-psychic warfare (because we don't use the warp), armoured warfare, etc etc.
Returned powerful mutated warriors who the Imperium largely accepts, because...?

The list goes on. Space Wolves are far worse written than Ultramarines.

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

Is that a problem? If the preset is what people want, then why is that a problem?

You're largely missing that Ultramarines are only "bland" because of overexposure. Because they're the most frequently seen, their style is seen as generic, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Take the HH series, where Ultramarines aren't exposed so much, and see how their culture differs from every other Legion. They have a distinct style, which is allowed to show because they aren't being treated as the poster boys.

I don't disagree that Space Wolves are horribly written Marty Stues. There are two things that make me dislike them less:

1) Viking Marines can be a pretty cool look. Some of their stuff, like the Axe/Shield dread, and generally speaking anything that isn't a giant cartoon wolf, is fairly neat looking.

2) most of their special characters are norse gods in space marine form. That's a neat schtick. Some are admittedly just "commander guy with a name" but Thor in terminator armor, Loki in power armor, Odin as a space wizard are kind of nifty looking.

By contrast, the Ultramarine characters are:

-A Captain, BUT CAPTAINIER!
-A librarian, BUT LIBRARIANER!
-A chaplain, BUT CHAPLAINIER!
-A tank commander, BUT TANK COMMANDERIER!
-A scout, but SCOUTIER!
-A dude sitting at home and crying into his powerfists because he's been replaced with a newer, sexier Marty Stu
-The Alpha Marty Stu, the bestest bestest best at everything!

As to "why is choosing the preset character in an RPG game a problem"... I mean, it's not, theoretically. It's just kind of...limited. The distinction between this game system and others is that you actually build your soldiers, paint them however you like, limitless possibilities (at least, if you include the ability to sculpt your own stuff, go to third party bits, etc). Going with Ultramarines is a little like taking a tactical squad box and very carefully and meticulously replicating every wargear and pose combination shown on the box, not wanting to deviate from the standard in any way.

Ultramarines are the default version of the default faction, and are therefore the lowest possible bar for creativity in 40k. And I don't particularly care about "30k makes them interesting" - to me, that's kind of analogous to "the plot of Phantom Menace makes perfect sense if you just read the expanded universe novels! Also Darth Maul is a super interesting character!"

brettdavis1991 wrote:
Don't have an Ultramarine force myself but I always found the community's distaste for them perplexing. It seems like Matt Ward was what really got people's goat and the use of them in the promotional material. I always saw them the same as every other space marine chapter, they're just a spin on a historical group or animal.

White Scars=Space Mongols
Ultramarines=Space Romans
Dark Angels=Space Knights
Space Wolves=Obligatory Viking Faction
Salamanders=... well, space salamanders

and so on.

So idk, do people still hate on the little blue men, or have they let the Matt Ward stuff go?

They were hated on before Ward, but he really cranked it up. They were always somewhat disparaged as the beginners kiddie army, had relatively boring fluff, and were just kind of uninteresting. Ward cranked them up to 11, and now they've got their Primarch back who also is used as a major powergaming element.

Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

I'm glad we can agree that the space wolves are actually the lamest of all chapters when it comes to fluff and marysuism.

In all honesty, I don't hate them, they're just boring. There is no edge of sour taste to them as a faction. No notable gene seed mutation, no dark secrets, their minis are literally the vanilla SM minis. They are the 40k equivalent of oatmeal with a side of water.

I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

I'm glad we can agree that the space wolves are actually the lamest of all chapters when it comes to fluff and marysuism.

Sadly that is pretty much where they are now :(

Hating on Ultramarines - I view it as a civic duty to the 40k gaming community as a whole.

Also, Brontosaurus Carl must have some awesome cloning, and very frowned upon, Dark Age cloning archeotech kicking about as Papasmurf seems to be everywhere at once from what I hear.

My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.

Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

I love the Ultramarine Roman Aesthetic. I hate that 90% of the models with ROman Aesthetic have Omega Symbols in all parts of their armour, something that limits me to use Ultramarine things to make my own Roman-Lookin Space Marines.

But well. My Chaos Army is lead by a Daemon Prince that in the Horus Heresy was a Ultramarine Sargeant called Brutus the Short (Because he had a problem becoming a Space Marine and he was just barely higher than a normal human). And all the Praetorian Guard of his chaos horde are Roman-Looking Corrupted Ultramarines.

Personally Cato Sicarius is a favourite of mine, as others have said, he represents the darker shade of Ultramarines, making them less perfect.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

Which is totally awsome btw!

Let's agree that space wolves are ridiculous though...

wow, many more responses than I expected. I don't think the haters have made a very good case for themselves. It very much seems like people hate them because of group think, not really any coherent reason.

One thing that I find funny is that when people are polled on what chapters they like Imperial Fists are always in the top 3 if not number 1 while Ultras are usually on the lower end. It's funny because the biggest complaint thrown against the ultras is that they are too basic, but Fists IMO are the most basic as far as aesthetics go. At least the Ultras got the Roman thing going on, Fists are straight vanilla in their appearance. Vanilla is fine for me, I don't think it's boring, but it is strange for a community that is determined to be as non-vanilla as possible to love the Imperial Fists and hate the Ultramarines.

No one has really addressed my first point that the Ultras are basically the same as every other chapter. They have their niche but maybe it isn't as played up as Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

The problem with Imperial Fists is that their "thing" was stolen by the Black Templars that are much more interesting, and then you have Crimson Fists that are Imperial Fists but with a more interesting background and situation as a Chapter.

People are just mad that their special snowflake Unknown-Founding Doesn't-Follow-The-Codex Chapter doesn't get as much done. I say that as someone that doesn't like them either but that's because of the Roman theme and bling they all got.

People hate Ultramarines due to over-exposure. I hate them for that reason, plus I find them generally uninteresting. They are intended for newer players to gravitate towards. Also, I find space marines in general kind of uninteresting anyways.

I think they were seeing a revival before the 3 tons of Gulliman lists flooded the meta. Now they've become associated with that (somewhat op) model and will have to reendure the smurf comments until gulliman is adjusted.

I always disagreed with GW''s policy of giving just one chapter all of the super snowflakes. Aside from a couple of characters in the wolves and angels if you wanted to play "normal" marines you didn't have any special characters until, IIRC, mid to late 3rd ed.

the_scotsman wrote:I don't disagree that Space Wolves are horribly written Marty Stues. There are two things that make me dislike them less:

1) Viking Marines can be a pretty cool look. Some of their stuff, like the Axe/Shield dread, and generally speaking anything that isn't a giant cartoon wolf, is fairly neat looking.

Again, I can't say you're wrong, but I can say that's subjective. Many people also, as this thread shows, have a thing for the Ultramarine aesthetic. I personally think the Roman aspects of the Ultramarines look very cool, but that's me.

2) most of their special characters are norse gods in space marine form. That's a neat schtick. Some are admittedly just "commander guy with a name" but Thor in terminator armor, Loki in power armor, Odin as a space wizard are kind of nifty looking.

Are they really? Aside from the Loki/Lukas argument, I don't really see a Thor or Odin connection beyond "they're space vikings and this one has a hammer! It's thor! This one is a magic user with a crow - it's Odin!". Those seem more like generic things to me, more of a coincidence than a conscious decision.
Besides, I'd say it's no more true than comparing Calgar to Caesar, or Cassius to Crassus and Tigurius to Pompey because they're his seconds-in-command.

By contrast, the Ultramarine characters are:

-A Captain, BUT CAPTAINIER!
-A librarian, BUT LIBRARIANER!
-A chaplain, BUT CHAPLAINIER!
-A tank commander, BUT TANK COMMANDERIER!
-A scout, but SCOUTIER!

And these haven't been issues with special characters in any other army? I beg to differ.

Snikrot? A Kommando that's Kommando-ier.
Bastonne? A Veteran who's Veteran-ier.
Njall? A Rune Priest who's Rune Priest-ier.
Old One Eye? A Carnifex who's Carnifex-ier.
Pask? A Tank Commander who's Tank Commander-ier.
Etc etc.

Most special characters are just "Role+1". At least not all the Ultramarine ones are "the best in the universe". Cassius is just very tough. Nothing about him being the best. Sicarius has lots of wins. He's also suffered some big losses, and is a good character as mentioned later. Chronus is just a named Tank Commander - when he was first around, anyone could take him in their list.

-A dude sitting at home and crying into his powerfists because he's been replaced with a newer, sexier Marty Stu

If you're going to sin Calgar, why aren't we sinning Azrael, Dante, Helbrecht, etc etc? Besides, we see that Calgar is developing as a character from Guilliman's arrival.

-The Alpha Marty Stu, the bestest bestest best at everything!

Come on, that's not true at all. Guilliman wasn't even the best strategist, that was Lion. He was just the most logistical, and due to this could make his Legion largest, lose less men, and set up more worlds into the Imperial network. Sanguinius and Horus were far more "bestest at everything".
The only reason Guilliman is so powerful in 40k is because he's the only Primarch around - no-one else is on his level. If another Primarch were to show up, Guilliman would be the best leader, but that's about it - Russ or Lion would make a better field commander.

As to "why is choosing the preset character in an RPG game a problem"... I mean, it's not, theoretically. It's just kind of...limited. The distinction between this game system and others is that you actually build your soldiers, paint them however you like, limitless possibilities (at least, if you include the ability to sculpt your own stuff, go to third party bits, etc). Going with Ultramarines is a little like taking a tactical squad box and very carefully and meticulously replicating every wargear and pose combination shown on the box, not wanting to deviate from the standard in any way.

So no-one should play Ultramarines because they're the ones on the box, and if you just happen to want to have blue marines, or actually like UM fluff, you're limiting yourself?
I don't agree.

If all models on the fronts of boxes were changed to Imperial Fists, would Imperial Fists become the next "hated on" army, because it's just "limiting" to paint them as Imperial Fists?
How about Scions? If someone paints their Scions as the Deltic Lions, then they're limiting themselves?
If someone paints their Dark Angels green, instead of the colour of the Angels of Absolution, then they're limiting themselves?
Just because someone paints their models a certain colour, that's up to them. It doesn't mean they're limiting themselves in any way.

Someone had to be on the fronts of boxes. Do I think it should ALWAYS be Ultramarines? No - I think that units should have different schemes depending on the unit and which Chapter "specialises" with them (aka, Bikes should be painted White Scars, Devastators in Imperial Fist colours, Assault Marines in Blood Angel schemes, etc etc), but that doesn't mean that UM are bad.

And of course, that is ignoring the assumption that people who play Ultramarines only do it because they don't want to deviate at all from the norm. Because ALL (or hell, even MOST) Ultramarine players do that. /s

Ultramarines are the default version of the default faction, and are therefore the lowest possible bar for creativity in 40k.

I think it was Jervis who said quite some time ago that one of the Big Four Chapters (BA, DA, SW, and UM) had to be the poster child, and they just chose UM. If the Imperial Fists were chosen instead, would that change the hate toward UM? Is this just a "they're popular so I'll hate on them to be edgyyyy" thing?

Frankly, I've seen Ultramarines done in ways that can be lacklustre (my own, probably), and others which blow any "interesting" homebrew scheme out of the water by sheer creativity. Just being Ultramarine doesn't mean you're bland at all, and to say so is quite ignorant of the wider hobby.

And I don't particularly care about "30k makes them interesting" - to me, that's kind of analogous to "the plot of Phantom Menace makes perfect sense if you just read the expanded universe novels! Also Darth Maul is a super interesting character!"

Well, except the EU is non-canon. 30k is very much canon. If you want to ignore perfectly good canon, you're more that welcome, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist purely because you don't want to read it.

Madoch1 wrote:In all honesty, I don't hate them, they're just boring. There is no edge of sour taste to them as a faction. No notable gene seed mutation, no dark secrets, their minis are literally the vanilla SM minis. They are the 40k equivalent of oatmeal with a side of water.

Does a Chapter need a sour taste to be fun and exciting and edgyyy? What's wrong with the straight-down-the-middle, by-the-book guys?
You say that UM models are just vanilla models - that is, unless you kit them out with their Greco-Roman aesthetic. Imperial Fists? Oh, you put fists on your armour. That's much more exciting /s.

And, as I'll say soon, the Ultras do have a flaw, just not one that's flanderised and shoved down your throat.

vaklor4 wrote:My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.

I can understand this, but that's more Guilliman than anything else. Not necessarily Ultramarines - if Guilliman could be taken by ANY Chapter, they probably wouldn't take Ultramarines.

Strg Alt wrote:Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

And you can relate to any of the other 8 foot tall genetically engineered killing machines, especially the Space Vampires, and the Space Knights, and the Space Crusaders, and the Space Vikings, etc etc?

Unflawed really just shows you don't understand the Ultramarines beyond face value and memes - they have plenty of flaws.
Is it a Dark Secret, or a Fatal Curse, or a We're Too Rebellious flaw? No, not at all - it's their own pride and hubris. Their reliance on the Codex. Cato Sicarius isn't a likeable Ultramarine, but he is a good character. I think this is where a lot of people get their dislike of Ultramarines from, from characters like Sicarius. They're good characters because they show us that even though someone can be a hero, they can still be a Class A asshat: he demonstrates their flaw - pride and hubris. And as we all know, not all Ultramarines are like Sicarius.
This comes to my point that Ultramarines are the only Chapter, aside from perhaps Space Wolves, who actually have a flaw that manifests outside of the universe, in the community.

Hell, they suffer for this, nearly being wiped out on their homeworld for it. Compare to Rynn's World, where the Crimson Fists are just unlucky, and have to fight to survive. The Ultramarines actually suffer from their flaw, and DEVELOP to overcome it. A far stronger narrative thread exists there.

TL;DR - Most Ultramarine hate is undeserved.

Always and forever.
Smurfs are THE most secure way to disqualify yourself from being taken serious. Never met anyone who didn't make jokes at the bluemangroup's expense.

A lot of people do, but it seems to be mostly just within the community of people who play them.

I'd add that the Ultramarines are not just "boring" vanilla marines - they're try-hard at being boring vanilla. I mean, I'm personally in the camp of "Space Wolves are worse," but yeah. I think that's why people hate them...plus just SM in general getting so much more love than all of the other factions.

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

Fatigue really. I have yet to see a shop without at least one Ultras player (and I mean mainline, only have ultramarines, player, not just someone who tangentially has ultras). It gets increasingly boring and tedious to play against them, not at all helped by the fact that they keep yoinking rules from every other faction in the game to them.

It's often like playing with that one kid who insists he has the "Shield of protect against everything" and the "Sword of infinity+1"

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

He was shown to be very upstart, threatening the position of Captain Agemman as next Chapter Master, and his lust for glory gets him in hot water several times - the Fall of Damnos, where he goes for the Overlord directly without really focusing on the battle at hand, and the Battle of Espandor, where he essentially claims all the credit for killing the Chaos leader, when it's really his Sergeant who does the heavy lifting.

In the Ventris novels, he comes across as very arrogant to Ventris, looking down on him and generally being snide throughout the trial.

Essentially, he is very focussed on glory and honour, but this leads to recklessness, arrogance, and often results in other people being sidelined for his own gains.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

It's not much as pride as... pride brought to an extremely unhealthy and self-centered dimention. Like, after damnos fall there was a big upheaval and tons of people were reduced to refugees (plus the massive death-toll). Cato's main worry? He had been beaten and thus his personal honor. To him Damnos wasn't a blow to the imperium, but to HIM, the rest be damned. That callousness and disregard, once you get down to it and couple it with his usual bombast and egolatry is scary.

 vaklor4 wrote:
My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.

As an ultramarines player, they sound like losers lol
I only used G-man once and felt bad after. I totally tabled my friend

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

It's not much as pride as... pride brought to an extremely unhealthy and self-centered dimention. Like, after damnos fall there was a big upheaval and tons of people were reduced to refugees (plus the massive death-toll). Cato's main worry? He had been beaten and thus his personal honor. To him Damnos wasn't a blow to the imperium, but to HIM, the rest be damned. That callousness and disregard, once you get down to it and couple it with his usual bombast and egolatry is scary.

Plus that TTS version of him. CAAAATTTOOOOO SICARIUUUUUUUUS!!! That brings the dark side of the ultramarine out.

I just kind of jumped on the bandwagon until I read First Heretic, then I really learnt not to like them.

Reading Dark Imperium has since enforced that idea with Guilliman saying things like "how will the Khan and Corax be able to rebuild the imperium without me?"

They're a great chapter and legion but I really hate their arrogance.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

Killing gray knights is simply being polite, like taking out the trash. Now if they killed draigo mc plotarmor that would be a public service.

Taffy17 wrote:I just kind of jumped on the bandwagon until I read First Heretic, then I really learnt not to like them.

Reading Dark Imperium has since enforced that idea with Guilliman saying things like "how will the Khan and Corax be able to rebuild the imperium without me?"

They're a great chapter and legion but I really hate their arrogance.

To be fair to Guilliman in both cases, whilst he DID burn down Monarchia, it was under the Emperor's orders, and someone else would have done it if Guilliman had said no.

In the latter case, neither Khan or Corax were great leaders, especially of entrenched empires. Khan was a nomad, refusing to settle for long beyond Quan Zhou, as we see in Brotherhood of the Storm.

Corax wasn't much of a leader, more of a freedom fighter - Guilliman, on the other hand, was a military commander and strategist before he even had his legion, and was already ruling Macragge prosperously. He, with exception of Sanguinius or Horus, would be one of the best choices to lead the Imperium (not from a military standpoint - Russ, Lion, Fulgrim, Perty, Dorn, Sangy or Horus would have been better military leaders).

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

Yeah but you're Canadian.

hobojebus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

Yeah but you're Canadian.

Heeeey I'm Canadian too. Besides, we don't like wolves. They are scary things and I want to hug my teddy bear. Oops wait I live in Canada so it's a polar bear amiright?

Ultras are 1000% cooler than the SW. GW really went overboard with Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf.

I just kinda want to see all SW models go in a giant dumpster fire with the primaris marines.

5th edition was 3editions ago its time to stop REEEEEEing over it people.

UM's are the boring of boring.

People definitely seem to like them as a legion during Heresy more than as a chapter currently.

My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

I'd still say their fans are more tolerable than Dorn-fanboys..

I don't really hate them, I find them boring and it is tiresome that GW is so obsessed about them. GW catering to the Ultras will create resentment in the players of other chapters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

And of course now they have the Primach... I guess there is no need to repeat here how much I hate the idea of a loayalist Primarch returning, let alone the fact that now half of the Space marine armies in existence are led by this same unique person... (With other characters you can at least refluff them even if you used the rules, It is really not reasonably possible with a Primarch.)

Well I mean playing dark angels I don't feel that backlash, as we have our own things and fancy toys, but don't the iron hands not have a single named character?

Ultramarines are always pushed into the foreground, despite appearing to lack any of the character and personality the other chapters have.

I'm a big fan of the Greco-Roman theme, so much so, that I've collected a small force of Calth MKIV SMs for a Minotaurs project, as well as other MKIV characters.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

Because there was no generic space Marine codex to start with in 2nd edition, there was the Ultramarines Codex (With the ability to use other chapters through Angels of Death index).. Which was converted over to the generic Space Marine codex.

This is why the Ultramarines have an entire cast of characters, most of them ended up coming from the previous set while they lost things overtime (and gained back) like the Tyrannic War Veterans (which was converted to Sternguard).

Now GW is to blame for not adding new characters to the other's overtime.. But they started with all this fancy stuff, like how BA, DA, SW, have their own respective takes on this stuff.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yet...they have the weakest chapter tactic.

Also lets not forget the: New Toy for Space Marines! I mean Ultras! Sucks to be not Ultras .

So any other chapter needs to pray to GW to allow them to use the new Space Marine Toy Thingy that by Fluff, everyone but realy only the guys in blue get (Until their codex gets an update). Funnily enough being part of the main Dex solves that problem for some chapters.

Yep. I dislike their apparent goody goody two shoes, but I'm also the guy that roots for villains in movies. I find them boring and without flavor. I see salamanders and see that they have a kind of cool thing going, and the same with Space Wolves (I kind of wish they stuck to the Norse more so than the wolfiness but I love me some Norse mythology) and the secrets other chapters have. I really love the Space crusaders of the Black Templars, I mean every other chapter has something that draws me in. I look at every other marine chapter and see untapped potential. I look at the Ultramarines and see a cash cow milked to it's dying throes. Part of it is jealousy, which is the heart of contempt and hatred many a time. I don't mind seeing them on the table though. I never feel guilty about shooting a particularly well painted ultrasmurf off the table


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the space wolves being wolfy wolf with wolves, I guess that's the price they pay for being in a game that is trying to widen it's horizons to children. Cartooney werewolf crap is a bit more child magnetic than just awesome space Vikings.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

100 times this, if it wasn't for the sheer over abundance of UM named characters and detailed UM specific sculpts (Tyrannic War Vets, Honour Guard) versus every other Chapter, I don't think I would dislike them as much as I do. I don't need a named character for every role, but I would love to at least have a generic option for things like a Scout HQ or Tank Commander.

That they are on the cover of almost every Marine kit box doesn't bother me, I have to admit that it looks quite nice on the shelves when all the Marine boxes are next to each other and makes buying kits as a present/gift for somebody mhch easier for those not initiated to the 40k game and universe. I just don't like that it seems that the UM have so many more options on who is leading their force to battle over everybody else, and get options like the Chapter specific Primaris upgrade packs, and get preferential treatment when it comes to resculpts of their characters.

I don't begrudge the people that play them though, just the people who use Guilliman in EVERY Imperial list they make.

You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Waaaghpower wrote:My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters, anyone could use them in any Chapter. Like, you could take a Telion-count-as in a Raven Guard list, purely because Chapter Tactics didn't exist at the time. Sure, they were "canonically" Ultramarine, but you could always take "Carneus Malgar" as the double-powerfist wielding Chapter Master of your Imperial Fists.

It was only in 6th that Chapter actually became an issue, the edition AFTER all these Characters were added.

Again, you might say that "Ultramarines have more things, that makes them better!" - not truly. If only one of those characters it actually worth taking, the others are useless save for variety. After all, Iron Hands had no special characters in 6th and 7th, but were one of the most taken Chapters. Why? They had good rules without needing Characters as a crutch.

If any Chapter could take Guilliman, would there be incentive to take Ultramarines?

(However, yes, I do agree that characters like Telion and Chronus probably should have been made into generic characters, like "Scout Commander" or "Tank Commander". However, Tigurius was around from 3rd Ed I think, with Cassius replacing Chaplain Xavier, and Sicarius presumably filling in for Cortez.
It wasn't just UM who got new characters in 5th - Khan, Shrike and Vulkan being added.)

Crimson wrote:I don't really hate them, I find them boring and it is tiresome that GW is so obsessed about them. GW catering to the Ultras will create resentment in the players of other chapters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

Again, when those Characters were added, anyone could have taken them in any Chapter.

And of course now they have the Primach... I guess there is no need to repeat here how much I hate the idea of a loayalist Primarch returning, let alone the fact that now half of the Space marine armies in existence are led by this same unique person... (With other characters you can at least refluff them even if you used the rules, It is really not reasonably possible with a Primarch.)

Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

What if it happened to be another Chapter who was chosen as the poster boys by GW? Say, Imperial Fists? Would they be hated in this situation, or is this really just becuase they're Ultramarines?
GW decided that they'd have their Big Four - DA, BA, SW, and UM. They gave all the others unique rules, and chose the Ultramarines to be the straight ones, the baseline to compare others to. Someone had to be.

If I had to pick a specific chapter I dislike (as opposed to just the bizarre way Space Marines are executed in the fluff by GW) then it would be Wolves, rather than UM.

UM strike me almost like the late Roman Empire: idealizing certain past concepts (the glories of pre-200AD Rome!, or in the Ultramarines' minds, their domination of the Imperium after the Heresy as the largest and most powerful surviving legion) and trying to execute them, but falling short at the last hurdle - namely, realizing that its their own hubris that prevents them from re-acquiring their potential. Take the Codex for example: hailed as a guideline for how space marines fight, so the Ultramarines, naturally, make it into an infallible bible that cannot be deviated from, and forget that it was only ever guidelines in the first place!

NOTE: I realize it's more nuanced than this, and that part of the tension within the Chapter is over this exact issue.

Wolves, on the other hand, strike me as the embodiment of

1) Do a thing
2) ?????
3) Profit!

which is a concept that I hate. I feel like they bumble their way to victory time and again. Like attacking the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy when they showed up to make sure Fenris wasn't literally evil and the story essentially goes:

1) SW shoot at loyal Imperial servants
2) ??????
3) SW win while somehow staying loyalist!

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

This. It actually shows examples of Good Ultramarines, and Bad Ultramarines - Titus as the good, being humanitarian (a UM trait), and not being obsessive over the codex but still tactically minded, and Leandros as the more callous, calculating Codex lover.

Yea, GW mancrush on UM is the issue here.
SM as a whole is just fine and not realy that hated.

If i could run the dev division for GW i would place UM in the ignore bin for 5 years while i force the art and modelers to flush out the other main chapters in the codex to the same extent as UM is.

I hate Ultra's because of what they are. Overperfect glorious marty-stu's who do everything and have everything (literally) and have no real flaws beyond "being a bit pridefu;". That is not a flaw, not when your strength is quite literally "everything but +1".
On the first page someone compared them to that kid in the playground who's pretend character has all the powers but better than everyone else and is unbeatable and in all honesty that is the best description I have heard in a long time.
Tank commanders? Guard have Pask who gives us rerolls to hit and a slight buff to the main gun. Ultra's get Chronus who gives their tank +1bs, a bunch of other buffs and can jump out of his tank and fight on foot if it gets knocked out.
Scouts? Orks have that Kommando character who gets a couple of buffs. By contrast let me introduce you to Telion, master of everything related to sneaky and sharpshooting.
Tau get that battlesuit chick who is a good commander and gets some buffs. On the other hand here is Cato 'supreme strategy commander x1000000' Sicarius with his beautiful buffs and awesome rules, not to mention stats and gear.
Guard get Ursakar E. 'Tactical Geniius' Creed whom is the supreme military mind in the Imperium and has commaded countless battles. In the other camp say hello to Rawbutt Girlymann, the suprememe commander who gets every single strategy buff there is and a bunch of other massive buffs too.
Eldrad is this amazing Eldar psyker whom has mastered and honed his art over millennia. Enter Tigrius the Sue, master of psychic might and the lord of the warp, bestest of psykers.
Old One Eye is a carnifex that survived being shot by anti-armour weapons, frozen and the severing of its synapse connection, a murder machine in close quarters. But look, its dual powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster coming to punch him into the dirt!

Whenever I read anything Ultramarines related it makes me think about Eragon, or the Eragon fanfic that lurks out there on the web - poorly written with mary sur/marty stu charactrs whom are written to be perfect in every way, barring some slight flaw that the author may have allowed to blemish their abomination in a feeble attempt to give them some depth/make them not seem like a giant turd. The story tends to similar lines, with the Ultra MC's taking on seemingly impossible tasks with no hope of success only to overcome it by using creative thinking and strategy(!) that their hopelessly incompetent foes fail to overcome as everything turns out just as planned.

Simply put, Ultramarines are bland, boring, mary sued to death, far too popular and in-your-face and have atrocious fluff. They are badly thought out and badly written and need to be sidelined in favour of a better chapter, but that will never happen.

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters,

.. Explosion? 5th edition gave them two, after removing one and making it generic (Tyrannic War Veterans)

But you can see people still hate on the Ultramarines quite clearly at this point. It's certainly not played or tired out with the same reasons trotted out time and time again even if many of them aren't true.. Or very applicable to their own "special snowflake chapter" to begin with.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

This. It actually shows examples of Good Ultramarines, and Bad Ultramarines - Titus as the good, being humanitarian (a UM trait), and not being obsessive over the codex but still tactically minded, and Leandros as the more callous, calculating Codex lover.

Exalted bro.

There is nothing wrong with UltraMarines. I've had fun playing against them and have not experienced That Guy, as of yet. I've had more issues with Daemon players than UM players.

However, if UM get 10x unique characters, then you should either let every other chapter use them as a counts-as stand-in, give the 8 loyalist legions 10x each (that can be taken by their successor chapters), or do away with special rules for ALL unique characters.

Also, I built this fething thing when it was available in Apoc games for all Space Marines, but now only UM get to use it? I call bull gak!

All Space Marines are gary-stus. We focus on UM because they are put into the limelight more for GWs advertising, aside from Ward doing the dumbest things imaginable with them and every other thing he touches (though with exceptions).

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

Personally I like much more "Legal" characters, the kind of legal that follow the rules even if it is inconvenient because if you don't follow the rules, what are you different from Chaos?

The "Omg I'm edgy and I only follow my on rules" kind of characters feel to me the most boring ones.

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

He Titus and Ventris don't ignore the Codex, they just are somehow aware of Guilliman's original intent that they Codex isn't dogma that must be followed to the letter, but that it helps lay out the situations and correct responses, but that you should be able to make your own calls. Leandros represents the Ultramarines that are too rigid.

I don't think I said it outright but I don't hate Ultramarines. I just think they are not as interesting as the rest of the 8 loyalist legions/main chapters or the famous successor chapters.

Of course, Ultramarines still get eff-ton of points for being Imperial. They're still way more interesting than anything chaos, don'tevengetmestartedonthemmmmgh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

And that time is now.

Edit: Heck, even Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius could return. Ferrus Manus as some kind of highly advanced cyborg and if anyone will return from outright death, it's Sanguinius.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

He Titus and Ventris don't ignore the Codex, they just are somehow aware of Guilliman's original intent that they Codex isn't dogma that must be followed to the letter, but that it helps lay out the situations and correct responses, but that you should be able to make your own calls. Leandros represents the Ultramarines that are too rigid.

The "Ultramarines that accept that the Codex isn't dogma" thing is actually my biggest complaint about how Matt Ward wrote them. The stick-up-ass Codex-is-always-right inflexibility felt like it made the Ultramarines interesting, set up personal conflicts when they ran into the limits of the Codex, but since 5e it's all gone off into "the Ultramarines know exactly when to folllow the Codex and when to ignore it because they're perfect and always right". Every appearance has to involve the newbie going "but the Codex..." and the grizzled veteran going "listen to me, not the Codex, I'm cooler", and it ends up feeling like their personality has died and they've been shoved into the bland Mary-Sue-protagonist role where we're supposed to take their word for things because they're the protagonists and because the author likes them too much to make them wrong about anything.

I'm aware that this is subjective and plenty of people are going to read that whole description and come back with "...so...what's wrong with that?", but that's why I find the Ultramarines irritating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedCommander wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

And that time is now.

Edit: Heck, even Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius could return. Ferrus Manus as some kind of highly advanced cyborg and if anyone will return from outright death, it's Sanguinius.

(That's why Mephiston is S/T5. The Black Rage is Sanguinius' psychic gost, who has spent ten thousand years re-constituting his consciousness to the point where he can return, and he's preparing a suitable vessel for his ascension.)

(What GW does is inevitably going to be boring and involve the Sanguinor, unfortunately.)

 RedCommander wrote:

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

No. It was King Arthur style 'will return in one day' legend. It never needed to actually happen.

And that time is now.

Unfortunately yes. And the setting is kinda ruined. It was not enough for the Primarch fanboys to have an entire separate game and novel series to dedicated to the antics of these superheroes, and now 40K will be about that too.

@AnomanderRake - it's the same conflict that startrek captains deal with - with the prime directive. The most interesting characters Picard, Sisko, Kirk - they have all broken the prime directive at least once for the good of humanity, or their crews. It's really not interesting to watch ideals destroy people - it's much more interesting to watch them bend their ideals IMO.

master of ordinance wrote:I hate Ultra's because of what they are. Overperfect glorious marty-stu's who do everything and have everything (literally) and have no real flaws beyond "being a bit pridefu;". That is not a flaw, not when your strength is quite literally "everything but +1".

Did you mistake to put Space Wolves instead of Ultramarines?

They're FAR more egregious on the Marty Stu territory, in both 30k AND 40k. Ultramarines are clearly not perfect, or else we wouldn't see things like:
- Their overreliance on the Codex.
- The pride sometimes blinding them, and leading them to folly and destruction (hi Lamenters, Fall of Damnos and Battle for Macragge)
- Some of their commanders feeling left out by a changing universe (hi Calgar)

They're well respected, but is that surprising coming from one of the most INTACT and successful Legions? Their main trait, if any, is organisation and discipline. Which just so happens to be a reason they have one of the most stable geneseeds, leading to MORE successors.
They still can't, yanno, actively declare war on an Inquisitor and still be treated as innocent. They still can't actively field mutants in their ranks and still be widely beloved. They can't field a Chapter well over the standard size and handwave it away. They aren't the masters of CQC, naval, anti-psychic, armoured, melee combat that the Space Wolves are.

The Ultramarines might be glorious, I'll give you that. But they're clearly not overperfect with their flaws. No, the Space Wolves are far worse in quality than Ultras.

On the first page someone compared them to that kid in the playground who's pretend character has all the powers but better than everyone else and is unbeatable and in all honesty that is the best description I have heard in a long time.

And I told them exactly what I told you. They're nothing on the Wolves.

Tank commanders? Guard have Pask who gives us rerolls to hit and a slight buff to the main gun. Ultra's get Chronus who gives their tank +1bs, a bunch of other buffs and can jump out of his tank and fight on foot if it gets knocked out.

And that's an in-game effect, not to mention comparing across two different codexes. Why don't you complain that Creed only gets a 4+, but Space Marine BASIC Captains can get a 3+?

Different codexes, different tanks, different rules.

Scouts? Orks have that Kommando character who gets a couple of buffs. By contrast let me introduce you to Telion, master of everything related to sneaky and sharpshooting.

Master? Did I miss something? He's a good shot, but guess who's better - Vindicare Assassins.

Tau get that battlesuit chick who is a good commander and gets some buffs. On the other hand here is Cato 'supreme strategy commander x1000000' Sicarius with his beautiful buffs and awesome rules, not to mention stats and gear.

And Shadowsun was never ever taken at all for Deathstars in 6th/7th, and Cato was a staple of Deathstar lists, obviously. /s
Shadowsun was invaluable for her defensive abilities which created Deathstars around her. Cato got ONE buff for one Tactical Squad, and a morale boost effect. He was never taken at all.

Guard get Ursakar E. 'Tactical Geniius' Creed whom is the supreme military mind in the Imperium and has commaded countless battles. In the other camp say hello to Rawbutt Girlymann, the suprememe commander who gets every single strategy buff there is and a bunch of other massive buffs too.

Sorry, did Creed ever write a book which is literally the cornerstone of Imperial tactics and organisation? Has he ever been Lord Commander of the Imperium? Is he, by any chance, the superhuman offspring of the Emperor himself, being the best of his kind at strategy and logistics?
No?

Maybe that's because Creed IS good. For a human. Guilliman is beyond human in nearly every manner. That's hardly surprising, is it?

Eldrad is this amazing Eldar psyker whom has mastered and honed his art over millennia. Enter Tigrius the Sue, master of psychic might and the lord of the warp, bestest of psykers.

And isn't Mephiston, well, better? Tigurius has one niche, his ability to tap into the Hive Mind. Beyond that, he's not too special, for a Chief Librarian.
Mephiston - well, he fought off the Red Thirst, survived a building falling on him, and is generally better than every other unaugmented Space Marine.

Old One Eye is a carnifex that survived being shot by anti-armour weapons, frozen and the severing of its synapse connection, a murder machine in close quarters. But look, its dual powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster coming to punch him into the dirt!

Well, he IS a Chapter Master of one of the most prestigious Chapter out there. I'd be surprised if a Carnifex did succeed where the Swarmlord failed.

And yes, powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster was defeated once by Swarmy. Then the man adapted and beat the Swarmlord at it's own game.

Whenever I read anything Ultramarines related it makes me think about Eragon, or the Eragon fanfic that lurks out there on the web - poorly written with mary sur/marty stu charactrs whom are written to be perfect in every way, barring some slight flaw that the author may have allowed to blemish their abomination in a feeble attempt to give them some depth/make them not seem like a giant turd. The story tends to similar lines, with the Ultra MC's taking on seemingly impossible tasks with no hope of success only to overcome it by using creative thinking and strategy(!) that their hopelessly incompetent foes fail to overcome as everything turns out just as planned.

And this doesn't apply to the Space Wolves more?
Seriously, the Ultramarines are the ONLY chapter who's flaw manifests outside of the universe. They're the only one with an ACTUAL flaw, because this thread EXISTS. They're seen as TOO perfect, when that's just a lot of meming, hyping, and over-the-top reactions to some bad writing that happened three editions ago. There are far worse offenders, and yet people go for the Ultramarines because it's cool to hate the "order" faction, the poster boy, the one which isn't edgyyy and fatally tragic.

Simply put, Ultramarines are bland, boring, mary sued to death, far too popular and in-your-face and have atrocious fluff. They are badly thought out and badly written and need to be sidelined in favour of a better chapter, but that will never happen.

Most of this is opinion, or simply misinformed falsehood, as I say above.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters,

.. Explosion? 5th edition gave them two, after removing one and making it generic (Tyrannic War Veterans)

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

But you can see people still hate on the Ultramarines quite clearly at this point. It's certainly not played or tired out with the same reasons trotted out time and time again even if many of them aren't true.. Or very applicable to their own "special snowflake chapter" to begin with.

Pretty much.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

Well, except that nearly ALL Loyalist Primarchs were given space to come back (barring Ferrus and Sanguinius, and Dorn to a lesser degree) - the not-dead-until-a-body-is-found rule applies well here. Even if it's just a legend, that doesn't mean it can't happen, or shouldn't. After all, it's GW's universe.
And even if not, Lion and Guilliman were CERTAINLY in the position too come back, with in-universe rumours of Guilliman healing in stasis.

You can't have shadow without light. Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

You can't have shadow without light.

A wavering candle would be cooler than a military grade searchlight.

Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.

Yes, god forbid the Chaos would feel like an actual threat! I really prefer Imperium's heroes to be people like Yarrick.

Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

Cassius was introduced in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex brought back to 4th. Telion, Chronus were introduced in 5th..

Sicarius I forgot wasn't around since before 5th, since his loadout is the default 4th edition captain loadout, but he's basically a replacement for 2nd editions Captain Invictus, with a bit of Ancient Helveticus buffing.

Before people forget, the Honour Guard and Sternguard were Ultramarine Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans in 4th as well.

Ultramarines has it's roots in having a full codex to itself, akin to Dark Angels and the like.. And people forget that and wonder why they are so populated.

So yeah Ultramarines had lost: Invictus (replaced by Sicarus as Invictus was too close to the Chapter Master, using a plasma blaster and Power Fists), Ancient Helveticus. They had the Unique Honour Guard/Tyrannic, which became generics. So overall Ultramarines have gained one extra special character since 2nd, not counting the Primarch

Codex Ultramarines: Chief Librarian Tigurius, Marneus Calgar, Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus.

Current Day: Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, Cassius, Telion, Chronus

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

I think basically everyone agrees that the Space Wolves are terrible. I mean feth, you can see plenty of it in this thread even from people who don't agree with you on the Ultras.

For me, Ultramarines are boring, but Space Wolves are offensive. I can tolerate the blandness of the Ultras, but the world is a little worse because the Space Wolves exist.

 Crimson wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

No. It was King Arthur style 'will return in one day' legend. It never needed to actually happen.

And that time is now.

Unfortunately yes. And the setting is kinda ruined. It was not enough for the Primarch fanboys to have an entire separate game and novel series to dedicated to the antics of these superheroes, and now 40K will be about that too.

I still have My Dudes. The setting is not ruined. I welcome any challenge, be they nobodies or superheroes.

Edit: For the record, I don't have a Primarch in my army. And I don't have a problem if my opponent does.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

You can't have shadow without light.

A wavering candle would be cooler than a military grade searchlight.

We prety much ALREADY had a wavering candle. The candle wavered more, then dropped at half light.
Guilliman is HARDLY a military grade searchlight. He's one man, he can't replace the Astronomican, he can't be everywhere at once. He can try to reorganise and guide the Imperium's military, but he's still fighting a losing battle. Especially with Chaos Primarchs coming out of the woodwork like never before, more Tyranids coming in, Orks rallying to a new Prophet of the Waaaagh!, Necron Tomb Worlds awakening faster, all Warp Rifts growing larger, Tau expansion, Eldar being bolstered by a new DEITY - it's not just the Imperium who's got new stuff.

There's grimdark, and then there's grimmestpitchblackness.

Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.

Yes, god forbid the Chaos would feel like an actual threat! I really prefer Imperium's heroes to be people like Yarrick.

Chaos was a threat beforehand. They portrayed most Chaos events fine - Warbands attacking Imperial worlds to destabilise the region, launch raids for resources, and generally bleed them slowly before the Imperium can bring it's superior forces to bear. The only sticking point is Abaddon, and even then, it was "all part of the plan".

Just because they weren't outright head-on battling the Imperium doesn't mean they weren't an actual threat.

And your latter point, that's fine. You're allowed that opinion, and you can always still play with your human heroes (despite Yarrick having more plot armour than most characters). However, that's just your opinion and preference, and other people have theirs.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

Cassius was introduced in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex brought back to 4th. Telion, Chronus were introduced in 5th..

Sicarius I forgot wasn't around since before 5th, since his loadout is the default 4th edition captain loadout, but he's basically a replacement for 2nd editions Captain Invictus, with a bit of Ancient Helveticus buffing.

Before people forget, the Honour Guard and Sternguard were Ultramarine Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans in 4th as well.

Ultramarines has it's roots in having a full codex to itself, akin to Dark Angels and the like.. And people forget that and wonder why they are so populated.

So yeah Ultramarines had lost: Invictus (replaced by Sicarus as Invictus was too close to the Chapter Master, using a plasma blaster and Power Fists), Ancient Helveticus. They had the Unique Honour Guard/Tyrannic, which became generics. So overall Ultramarines have gained one extra special character since 2nd, not counting the Primarch

Codex Ultramarines: Chief Librarian Tigurius, Marneus Calgar, Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus.

Current Day: Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, Cassius, Telion, Chronus

My apologies, you are right on the Cassius front. Sicarius is new, but is a copy of previous captains, but still counts as new for this sake?

And yes, you do have a good point on the special units front too - I'll concede this, fair play!

*drinks from his horn filled with tears of the envious* hmm delicious.

As a grey knight player, I can sympathize you poor ultramarine players...

The shadow of the Ward looms over us all. I can still hear the screams of those sisters of battle.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.
't st
UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

I love Primaris but would have preferred primarchs stayed asleep. I just like 10 foot tall marines - that is what they should have been in the first place IMO. Marines of any flavor don't strike me as fascists though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.
't st
UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

I love Primaris but would have preferred primarchs stayed asleep. I just like 10 foot tall marines - that is what they should have been in the first place IMO. Marines of any flavor don't strike me as fascists though.

I mean, they are. The entire imperium is, insofar as we understand it - a centralized capitalist society controlled directly by the military state propelled in large part by military conquest. The imperium is a fascist oligarchy as a whole, and every world controlled by a Space Marine chapter that we know of is essentially a fascistic system.

People forget that with "Communist" and "Fascist" those words don't just mean "the baddies" they actually have a practical definition. Nobody's going around electing space marines.

Say what you want about the Space Wolves wolf theme being dialed up to a ridiculous level. I've got a friend who was indifferent to 40K till she saw Thunderwolf Cavalry. Now she's a die-hard Space Wolf player.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM.

I think you are mistaken about the Ultramarines being religious fanatics. Sure, they are very zealous, but not overly so for Space Marines in general. They're nothing on the Dark Angels and Black Templars, even Imperial Fists, and the Space Wolves are even more zealous and fanatical to Russ and Fenris.

Plus, whilst I understand your cultural imprinting of Roman-esque = Fascist, the Ultramarines are, considering they're in the generally very fascist Imperium, incredibly liberal. They're a strongly based Meritocracy, with a Military Autocrat ruling by proxy. The citizens generally have a very positive standard of living, with the defence of a Space Marine Chapter, lots of culture, no shortage of resources or materials, and are typically well educated and provisioned for.

The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

Are Space Wolves more customisable? In lore, not quite. Sure, the Ultramarines have unit logos and iconography largely uniform, but the detailing and armour is freely customisable - the picture of the Ultramarines Second Company shows an incredible diversity in armour marks and layouts. Space Wolves get more customisability in that they can put wolf pelts on. Realistically, any Chapter can be heavily blinged up.

Again, the barbaric and savage Viking theme is all well and good, but still a matter of opinion. As I said before, I feel that a lot of people like the Wolves for that, and dislike the Ultramarines for their order, because in Western media a lot now, especially America, the "rogue, renegade rebellious" character is shown off as better than the "disciplined, orderly, controlled" character. Hence, the Ultramarines, who embody the latter aspect are not seen as "badass", in perhaps the same reason a D&D paladin or Good Cop is passed over in favour of more "wild" characters.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Before Guilliman, in 6th and 7th, Ultras were probably second or third most popular, and only Tigurius was really taken as a Special Character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

The fifth edition SM codex was nowhere near the power level as GK - it was IMO the worst SM codex ever... many units way over pointed and veteran units with could shooot and chop were replaced by Sterngaurd and Vanguard which are both still very lackluster units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

And once it is announced that he died a martyr's death while fighting the enemies of the Imperium they will love him even more! (But he will become much easier to manage.)

The 5E SM codex had some issues, Vanguard vets were definitely overcosted, but was not an awul book. Sternguard vets were very popular (though id agree the split and renaming was silly). The books biggest issue was that the other 5E marine books were turned up to 12. The SM codex was very definitely considered to be solid in 5E otherwise. Vulkan melta spam, TH/SS terminators, drop pod sternguard, lasplas razorback spam, etc was all really powerful and did very well.

The issue was 140pt 5 ML split fire longfang squads, cheap Bolter/BP/CCW counterattack GH's, 5pt autocannon Psybolts and Coteaz, outflanking AV13 Fast Attack battle tanks and the like from other SM variants ended up as "Space Marines +1"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

Doesn't matter what they write there will be those who eat it like a pitbull on a porkchop. While quite unimpressive, I will say that the writing is at least colourful and ultimately entertaining in an unintentional side effect way.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

They already had him as Lord Commander before. Why wouldn't they want him now, after:

- They realise the throne is failing
- Cadia has fallen
- Half the Imperium has been lost from the Astronomican
- There are MORE xenos and Chaos threats than ever before
- He's freely offering new reinforcement, and promise of advancement for good service.

There's dysfunctioning, and then there's actively working to destroy itself.

Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

5th edition ultramarines weren't overpowered but still among the most popular and common armies. Did they need a boost? They sold lots of miniatures anyway.

The problem with competitive marines is a meta in which 75% (if not more) of the players have a SM army, which kills variety and makes the game boring.

I've always collected armies because of their miniatures and maybe style of playing, nothing else. Since SM have always been very popular IMHO making them highly competitive means a bad game deisgn, even more people would collect and field them this way.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

They already had him as Lord Commander before. Why wouldn't they want him now, after:

- They realise the throne is failing
- Cadia has fallen
- Half the Imperium has been lost from the Astronomican
- There are MORE xenos and Chaos threats than ever before
- He's freely offering new reinforcement, and promise of advancement for good service.

There's dysfunctioning, and then there's actively working to destroy itself.

Because Guilliman's reforms represent a complete shattering of the current power structure of the Imperium? If Guilliman starts cleaning up corruption then organizations like the Inquisition that thrive due to the Imperium's stagnation have everything to lose.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Because Guilliman's reforms represent a complete shattering of the current power structure of the Imperium? If Guilliman starts cleaning up corruption then organizations like the Inquisition that thrive due to the Imperium's stagnation have everything to lose.

No more so than what's already happened. Again, as we've seen, he knows he can't win everyone over, so he plays into the Ecclesiarchy for morale.

The Inquisition, largely, doesn't thrive on stagnation. It thrives on politics and control, but not stagnation. Don't forget, Guilliman was around for the Inquisition to be created in the first place when he was Lord Commander, so he likely knows their ways and how he can assert his power (namely Custodes, most Space Marines, Mars, and the majority of Imperial military branches).

It's more prudent for people to do as Guilliman says and earn a position of power under him - he's a pragmatist, he'd rather have allies than enemies.

 Blackie wrote:
5th edition ultramarines weren't overpowered but still among the most popular and common armies. Did they need a boost? They sold lots of miniatures anyway.

The problem with competitive marines is a meta in which 75% (if not more) of the players have a SM army, which kills variety and makes the game boring.

I've always collected armies because of their miniatures and maybe style of playing, nothing else. Since SM have always been very popular IMHO making them highly competitive means a bad game deisgn, even more people would collect and field them this way.

Holy cow - you should have seen my shop in 5th ed when they released the blood angel codex. There were literally blood angels armies facing blood angels armies - some were space wolves facing blood angels. Then me and my buddy playing our ultra and IG armies against each other. Practically no xenos! and 80% blood angels.

I like the Ultramarines, always have. The problem is that they have become too mary sue, and having Guilliman come back and then immediately ignore major plot things (such as the cicatrix maledictum or whatever that gash in the middle of the imperium is; in the book guilliman just ignores it completely when it's supposed to be this really major event), and in general just make the ultras out to be poor 80s cartoon heroes who never lose and always foil the bumbling villains plans.

However, they are still awesome. 30k ultras are really amazing as well.

Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Being the poster boys has also made them a victim of a lot of poor writing. A lot of our characters can be summed up as “I’m the best <blank>” even when they shouldn’t be. I just chalk that up to the fact that all the books are basically in-game non-reliable propaganda. And the fact they they get most of the limelight, means they get a proportional share of the crap writing.

But if you want the real mary sue/plot armor chapter, look to the Space Wolves. They are FAR worse in that regard then the Ultras.

I think a lot of the Ultra hate is just echos of 5th, and Ward’s really bad fluff/comments. The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

I've played Crimson Fists since Space Marines models existed. My moment of hating the Ultramarines first started when they first decided to name the Space Marines codex Codex: Ultramarines. Right then and THERE I started hating them, solely because any vanilla chapter instantaneously got pegged with the "Ultramarines" moniker. My chapter's history, and my LEGION'S history, is more than "Trying to be Ultramarines" Ward's 5th Ed. codex just cemented that hatred by showing me that he probably weeps at night because he couldn't have named the codex Codex: Ultramarines.

Mr Morden wrote:Flanderisation

Okay, apparently I don't internet enough. What the feth is THIS?!?!!?

 Just Tony wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Flanderisation

Okay, apparently I don't internet enough. What the feth is THIS?!?!!?

It refers to when a particular trait in a character becomes exaggerated and focused on to the exclusion of all other character traits, often resulting in an interesting character becoming boring and one dimensional. The name is in reference to Flanders from the Simpsons, who became more and more passive and hyper-religious over the course of the show.

As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yes Ultramarines still suck, from having to be retconed into a founding chapter and the Heresy, to having to have the best version of any role to the point they had a half elder Liberian to justify his power.

From there we got the fan spank of the wardian era that slopped over into 8th with the return of the Universes best quatermaster and filing clerk and more fluff with the stench of ward all over it.

I know GW's quality of writing is not a particularly high bar but whenever the Smurfs are involved it manages to tunnel below even that minimal standard.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

And that's somehow worse than the Space Wolves lore?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

And that's somehow worse than the Space Wolves lore?

I have to agree with that. Space wolves are worse. Just the wolves make them more laughable more of a laugh than a threat.

The thing about Ultras is that they're fething everywhere. If you dislike Space Wolves, you can pretty much ignore them. They have their own book, and in the fluff they're pretty insignificant. GW has been focusing on Ultras for several editions, and now their bloody Primarch is running the Imperium and is a linchpin of every competitive Space Marine army, so if you don't want to include him you're intentionally gimping yourself. It's like Mat Ward's wet dream now.

I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Just checking back in to confirm to everyone that Ultramarines are still bad.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Just checking back in to confirm to everyone that Ultramarines are still bad.

Nope

Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

the_scotsman wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

They're only negative attributes if it affects them. How many of the Space Wolves' negative attributes have actually affected them badly?

Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

So, what flaws DO the Wolves have?

At least with the Ultramarines, we see their adherance to the Codex hurt them against the Tyranids and Tau, their pride hurt them at Damnos and their relationship with the Lamenters, and even Calgar is suffering with Guilliman's return making him irrelevant. Plus, on a meta-level, the Ultramarines are disliked PURELY FOR BEING THERE. Between their name, and the fact that GW chose them instead of *insert Chapter here* to be the poster boys, they're given disproportionate amounts of hate.
Saying they're dull or boring is subjective - anyone is more than welcome to say that about anything. But saying they're one-dimensional and 100% mary sue is simply not true, in the fact that I can point out the relevant flaws above that disprove that.

I've never seen (in person) or played against ultras. I don't hate them but I would rather play against chaos or xenos before I'd play them.

luckily nobody in my local group plays ultras so I don't have to worry about it.

i do have a problem with how they're the default chapter/color scheme for all marine vehicles. It would be nice if they had other chapters on the front of the box (sw,da,ba aside).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

They're only negative attributes if it affects them. How many of the Space Wolves' negative attributes have actually affected them badly?

Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

So, what flaws DO the Wolves have?

At least with the Ultramarines, we see their adherance to the Codex hurt them against the Tyranids and Tau, their pride hurt them at Damnos and their relationship with the Lamenters, and even Calgar is suffering with Guilliman's return making him irrelevant. Plus, on a meta-level, the Ultramarines are disliked PURELY FOR BEING THERE. Between their name, and the fact that GW chose them instead of *insert Chapter here* to be the poster boys, they're given disproportionate amounts of hate.
Saying they're dull or boring is subjective - anyone is more than welcome to say that about anything. But saying they're one-dimensional and 100% mary sue is simply not true, in the fact that I can point out the relevant flaws above that disprove that.

Like I said, people hate them because their Chapter Master sucks compared to Calgar. Simple as that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

Incorrect or very recent fluff. There's been at least two named successors of the Space wolves: The wolf brothers and the brotherhood of the bear, and there's probably more. I was also under the impression that the wulfen where limited to the 13th company that'd been lost in the warp following Abbadons 13th crusade (lots of 13th there) and that the real issue for the Space wolves was their pack mentality that comes with the gene seed. They simply didn't change squads during their astartes careers and so where highly inflexible tactically. I'll admit to not having read their last codex so this stuff could have been retconned.

On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.
The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

So as for my opinion on the Ultramarines today I'm largely indiffirent. I liked it back in 4ed when they actually had a divide within the chapter whenever to specislise against Tyranids or not. I didn't like it in 5ed when special characters rained on them and Sicarius was introduced. Now When they're crusading with Guilliman I feel "sure, cool enough". I gotta say that more then that it bugs me that Space marines have so many codexes and special stuff while most Xeno races and other factions must settle for less. Hell, remove a few Space marine chapter boxes and give us a few new diffrent plastic guard regiment boxes.

Edit: Also a cookie to sgt_smudge. It's been a treat reading your posts on this thread.

 Nerak wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

Incorrect or very recent fluff. There's been at least two named successors of the Space wolves: The wolf brothers and the brotherhood of the bear, and there's probably more. I was also under the impression that the wulfen where limited to the 13th company that'd been lost in the warp following Abbadons 13th crusade (lots of 13th there) and that the real issue for the Space wolves was their pack mentality that comes with the gene seed. They simply didn't change squads during their astartes careers and so where highly inflexible tactically. I'll admit to not having read their last codex so this stuff could have been retconned.

My apologies - I knew of the Wolf Brothers, but I thought they were all extinct due to their faulty gene-seed. I'll admit I've never heard of the Brotherhood of the Bear, so I can't speak for that, and may be wrong on that!

The Wulfen "Curse" has been shown though to be contagious, at least, according to when they were recently reintroduced in Warzone Fenris.

Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books).

5th supports this, as does 4th, to my knowledge. Again, neither book is on me.

I think this is an interesting point. The idea of memory and ability being passed down via geneseed always eludes me, so hearing how Ultramarine flexibility is passed down as a positive trait is something I'd not considered. Their ability to be "built up on" as a baseline is possibly a reason they are the poster boys? Maybe, still thinking on this. A good idea though.

Edit: Also a cookie to sgt_smudge. It's been a treat reading your posts on this thread.

They have? Normally I'm just worried about being a bit TOO zealous.

Unless something has changed from my knowledge of old fluff (I am not up to date) the 13th Company of the Space Wolves showed up during the latest Black Crusade around Cadia, rather than being lost there. They are the remnants of a group/company of full-on Heresy Era marines who went after the traitor forces as they fled into the Eye after the Heresy.

The Wolfen Curse showed up much more often in them as a defense against being in the Warp, as evidently Space Wolves are not awesome enough, so it was written that they are naturally more resistant to the Warp than other marines. And the 13th showed up on battlefields primarily because their psykers actually learned how to open Warp portals for travel, while actual Chaos Sorcerers did not have such an ability.

Some people are just super bitter about Ultramarines, in kind of an unhealthy way about a fictional force, if you ask me. Every other Chapter has has some absolute doozies of Deus ex machina that made them special snowflakes in their own way, and they get nowhere near the vitriol. Hell, Corax was given express permission from the Emperor to make what were essentially Primaris Marines, if it weren't for the Alpha Legions interference, and the 13th Company were basically Space Wolf-only Primaris Marine reinforcements, as they essentially all were described as having Wolf Guard levels of skill, and a better stat line than standard Space Wolves.

Maybe it's because I was a fan of the Ultramarines back when they were simply the basic standard of non-special marines.

 Melissia wrote:
I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up. I'm close to being a fanboi and i don't even like the colour blue......

ZebioLizard2 wrote:As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Nerak wrote:On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.

While the stability thing is documented, it also bears repeating that not every Legion has the level of deviancy that the others do. The Salamanders' defect is cause by specific reaction to a specific radiation. Hardly Blood Angels level deviation. The Dark Angels had no deviations that I am aware of, only Luther's betrayal and the Fallen that followed him. The Imperial Fists and there successors lost the acid spit and the walking sleep gland in the brain (names both escape me, not wasting what little break I have at work to google it.), yet have around 12 chapters total, possibly more. I know that the Feast of Blades is nothing but IF and their successors, so a starting point. However...

Nerak wrote:The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

This is the major spot of contention for me. And for the record, the 2/3 thing was in the 3rd Ed. codex as well. What was luckily the largest Legion was out quelling an Eldar incursion (read: obliterating a dozen Exodites armed with slingshots) while the thick of the Heresy was happening. Horus supposedly engineered it so that the largest force would be away from the battle, rather than coming up with ways to whittle them down. Sounds about right.

My personal theory is that the Ultramarines were the back up in case the Heresy forces floundered and failed. In the end Guilleman decided to grab the power of the Imperium in the Emperor's name rather than tear it down as Horus tried. This would also be why Fulgrim poisoned him. Had he gone directly after Fulgrim after awakening, it'd be perfect.

I also plan on doing a Chaos Marine army in Ultramarines 1st Company livery. The Macragge story was a cover up...

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines.

Summed it up pretty much. If you don't hate UM you aren't cool.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Because instead of wanting to make a Vanilla codex.. They made Ultramarines, they made Dark Angels, they made Space Wolves and Blood Angels rather then a generic "Angels of Death".

tneva82 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines.

Summed it up pretty much. If you don't hate UM you aren't cool.

The hipster curse. "Lamestream armies for squares"

See also: Black Legion, Cadian Shock Troops

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Because instead of wanting to make a Vanilla codex.. They made Ultramarines, they made Dark Angels, they made Space Wolves and Blood Angels rather then a generic "Angels of Death".

OR

What I wanted was a Codex: Space Marines, which we eventually got. Now it has devolved to being named Codex: Space Marines while everything within screams Codex: Ultramarines. Don't like. And for the record, I would have been fine with the 3rd Edition Codex had ANY chapter been on the front, as it didn't slather the Ultramarines like every codex since.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up.

This is the absolute worst! Even if you liked the change, it is probably not hard to understand how upheaval of this magnitude might annoy some people.

Meh. Ultras are kewl. Love their Vanilla Roman look and feel.

Space Wolves are even more awesome. Largest fanbase according to ADB and kickass Viking Werewolf look.

Love them until death.

Weap heretics.

Just Tony wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Ward's "work" was three editions ago.

If what he wrote was fanboi-ism, does that mean it's stupid to like Sanguinius or Horus in 30k? After all, they were painted as the Best of the Best Primarchs, and the others looked up to them.

Nerak wrote:On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.

While the stability thing is documented, it also bears repeating that not every Legion has the level of deviancy that the others do. The Salamanders' defect is cause by specific reaction to a specific radiation. Hardly Blood Angels level deviation. The Dark Angels had no deviations that I am aware of, only Luther's betrayal and the Fallen that followed him. The Imperial Fists and there successors lost the acid spit and the walking sleep gland in the brain (names both escape me, not wasting what little break I have at work to google it.), yet have around 12 chapters total, possibly more. I know that the Feast of Blades is nothing but IF and their successors, so a starting point. However...

All the same, the Ultramarines are most favoured because their geneseed IS one of the most stable - more so than any other, except the very reclusive and secretive Dark Angels and their descendants. With the Ultramarines willing to work alongside the Imperium so readily and their stock being as reliable as it is, it's no wonder they're chosen so much. Not to mention they founded the most Successors by having the largest Legion, which contributed yet MORE geneseed to Terra.

Nerak wrote:The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

This is the major spot of contention for me. And for the record, the 2/3 thing was in the 3rd Ed. codex as well. What was luckily the largest Legion was out quelling an Eldar incursion (read: obliterating a dozen Exodites armed with slingshots) while the thick of the Heresy was happening. Horus supposedly engineered it so that the largest force would be away from the battle, rather than coming up with ways to whittle them down. Sounds about right.

Well, that's been retconned now to the Ultramarines being told by Horus to fight some Orks with the Word Bearers, in a good old fashioned bonding exercise, only for the Word Bearers to slaughter them at muster. The Ultramarines were kept isolated and brutalised before they could inflict harm on Horus' forces, but they were certainly not aiding Horus, as you suggest below.

If we didn't have the HH books, you might have a point, but considering we do see the Calth Atrocity, there's no way it holds under current canon.

My personal theory is that the Ultramarines were the back up in case the Heresy forces floundered and failed. In the end Guilleman decided to grab the power of the Imperium in the Emperor's name rather than tear it down as Horus tried. This would also be why Fulgrim poisoned him. Had he gone directly after Fulgrim after awakening, it'd be perfect.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

 Melissia wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

He even had to play nice with the Imperial factions, given that he really hates the idea of being considered an Imperial Saint and the idea that the Ecchlesiarchy forced upon him.. But they are too strong to really root out and it does give the people hope, even as he's forced to acquiescence to their presence.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up. I'm close to being a fanboi and i don't even like the colour blue......

It's okay to like winners. It is natural.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

Out of all the primarchs - he wasn't the fastest or the strongest. But he was the smartest, most political, most logistical. If anyone can do it, it is Guilliman. That's why people hate him. Also being in direct command of all imperial forces really get's to some people.

Nobody plays them by me. They're considered the clownshoes of the entire hobby.

Yes people still hate ultramarines. For most of them it's because they hate marines in general. They hate people that play marines, they hate when marines get a book or a model, they hate when marines get an FAQ, they hate when people (rightfully) suggest that 1 wound power armor guys aren't very good anymore, they hate when marine players dare to suggest that they're not the most privileged army in the game... And some of these expand their hatred to everything imperial.

Some people in the hobby are super-toxic and have grown to irrationally hate certain factions, and marines tend to be the most common target for them, with eldar and tau right behind. So yes, people still hate ultras because they're marines.

 DANGEROUS DICK LONGFELLOW wrote:
Nobody plays them by me. They're considered the clownshoes of the entire hobby.

I think we can put this in the "Hates Ultra because it's cool to hate Ultras" bin.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes people still hate ultramarines. For most of them it's because they hate marines in general.

No, I think most people who hate Ultramarines are other marine players who're annoyed by the Ultras hogging the limelight.

 Crimson wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes people still hate ultramarines. For most of them it's because they hate marines in general.

No, I think most people who hate Ultramarines are other marine players who're annoyed by the Ultras hogging the limelight.

^-this-^

I have seen far more marine haters than ultras-specific haters, although you do have to keep in mind when you see an ultra hater, that there is a lot of overlap. They might be a marine hater just mentioning ultras at that specific moment.

I was once out of town at a game store event and saw a guy come over asking about the game, saying he was already looking into a couple armies. Guy who was playing sisters at the event was talking to him. The newbie mentioned he was thinking of starting with dark angels and the other guy just turned around and walked away with a scowl. Me and my opponent who were close enough to hear and witness were both like "wtf?"

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I have seen far more marine haters than ultras-specific haters, although you do have to keep in mind when you see an ultra hater, that there is a lot of overlap. They might be a marine hater just mentioning ultras at that specific moment.

I was once out of town at a game store event and saw a guy come over asking about the game, saying he was already looking into a couple armies. Guy who was playing sisters at the event was talking to him. The newbie mentioned he was thinking of starting with dark angels and the other guy just turned around and walked away with a scowl. Me and my opponent who were close enough to hear and witness were both like "wtf?"

Wow that is some.. extreme hatred going on right there. Typically the most is the typical overused jokes that just get rehashed for the millionth time.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
They hate people that play marines, they hate when marines get a book or a model

And boy oh boy do us irrational cartoon strawmen of infinite hate get a lot of opportunities to feel *that* particular emotion!

Has nobody heard of the expression "familiarity breeds contempt"? I started out feeling about marines the same way I feel about Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, etc - that there are some aspects of them I think are cool, their schtick is interesting and original, there are some characters I like, but...eh, they're a little samey, I don't think I could paint a whole army of them, there are just other factions I like more and I think I'll stick to them.

And now, you may not notice, but there are whole periods of 4-6 months pretty darn frequently where the only 40k content GW is putting out is for Marine factions. Note that by January, we will have 2/3 of the 15 imperium and chaos codexes released and 1/4 of the 8 xenos codexes. Couple that with their massive popularity with the playerbase, and yeah, occasionally someone's going to lose interest when someone starts talking about how they play Space Marines, or show more interest when they mention a different army that nobody else has. Probably half my games I end up facing off against some kind of power armor, so yeah, I'm not going to say I don't give non-PA preferential treatment when looking for something to play versus.

It's really funny to me that there are folks in this thread advocating that it is "cool" to hate space marines, as if the majority of the playerbase doesn't play some form of power armored faction at this point. There's enough of a market for marines to spin off a whole separate game with models that are twice as expensive. How is it not "the cool thing" to like marines?

There's certainly some overlap between Space Marine hate and Ultramarine hate, but ultimately there are some significant differences as well.

Space Marines get hate because they're by far the most supported faction, with the most models, the most lore, the most starter set presence, the most art, the most resculpts and they get their codices first. If you play anything other than Space Marines you get the (justified) feeling you're being shafted, which can easily turn into SM hate.

I'm not very fond of them myself, though I would never speak ill of someone because they play Marines or turn down a game because it was against Marines. One of my friends who got me into 40k plays SM, and I've helped him with both building and painting. He thinks they're cool, i prefer my Eldar. No hard feelings.

The Ultramarine hate is, as has been said before in this thread, often found in people who play non-ultra chapters, presumably because the UM hog all the glory. They're on the packaging, the codex, in the art, in the lore, and for some models (that aren't UM specific) you get only UM transfers. On top of this there's the ever-present Guilliman, the infamous Spiritual Liege comment and the fact that they're the chosen chapter of young kids who adhere to the packaging's colours. They're the mainstream of the mainstream, and you see them all the time whether you want to or not.

I do think it's a good idea to have one chapter being depicted on the packaging, it makes it clearer which models belong to the same army for the prospective buyer as well as making it more coherent and pleasing to the eye. They could probably ease up a bit on the UM hyping a biy though.

I used to hate Ultramarines, but now that I have Robby and a bunch of Primaris lying around I'm going to go to the dark side once I'm done with my DG army

 Crimson wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes people still hate ultramarines. For most of them it's because they hate marines in general.

No, I think most people who hate Ultramarines are other marine players who're annoyed by the Ultras hogging the limelight.

The irony here being that SM are by far the largest 'limelight' faction.

No army has had more beneficial retcons than smurfs, I mean it's taken a team of BL authors and ward to get them to there current position of being famous for missing the Heresy and immediately threatening a new civil war before big E was cold to get there own way.

I like to think that what burns ward's shriveled little black soul is that despite his fan spank level fluff the Smurfs have ultimately achieved little of note in the imperiums history.

Girly man achieved zilch real accomplishments in the heresy but say what you like about cowering in fear and starting your own mini heresy the Smurfs always had loo roll.

All the major historical events for The imperium,The Beast, Armaggedon, the Vandian heresy and so on and so forth all have a conspicuous absence of smurfs who spend most of the time cowering in there home system. Except that time they awakened the necrons by accident.

But I don't begrudge smurfs players there choice it's an easy paint scheme and a lot of fluff to work from on chapter structure and stuff oh and they make good nid bait.

Actually, I haven't read the whole thread and I'm sure someone has mentioned this. But now that SeanDrake brings up Matt Ward, HE is the reason most people hate Ultramarines. His codex fluff was so insufferable and cringe-inducing that only an exterminatus can wipe away the collective trauma we all experienced.

 Luciferian wrote:
Actually, I haven't read the whole thread and I'm sure someone has mentioned this. But now that SeanDrake brings up Matt Ward, HE is the reason most people hate Ultramarines. His codex fluff was so insufferable and cringe-inducing that only an exterminatus can wipe away the collective trauma we all experienced.

Or ultimately, it's just part of a history that people don't want to let go.

People hated the Ultramarines long before Ward, they just tried to justify it afterwords.

SeanDrake wrote:
No army has had more beneficial retcons than smurfs, I mean it's taken a team of BL authors and ward to get them to there current position of being famous for missing the Heresy and immediately threatening a new civil war before big E was cold to get there own way.

I like to think that what burns ward's shriveled little black soul is that despite his fan spank level fluff the Smurfs have ultimately achieved little of note in the imperiums history.

Girly man achieved zilch real accomplishments in the heresy but say what you like about cowering in fear and starting your own mini heresy the Smurfs always had loo roll.

All the major historical events for The imperium,The Beast, Armaggedon, the Vandian heresy and so on and so forth all have a conspicuous absence of smurfs who spend most of the time cowering in there home system. Except that time they awakened the necrons by accident.

But I don't begrudge smurfs players there choice it's an easy paint scheme and a lot of fluff to work from on chapter structure and stuff oh and they make good nid bait.

Do you actually know anything about Ultramarines fluff?

But they're not even good, that's the funny part.

Primaris marines are a total joke! Can you find me a single person who actually struggles to beat primaris marines? This person does not exist!

 Marmatag wrote:
But they're not even good, that's the funny part.

Primaris marines are a total joke! Can you find me a single person who actually struggles to beat primaris marines? This person does not exist!

I legit saw a match at a GT last month where a primaris army won.
Of course...it was a primaris mirror match... xD

 Marmatag wrote:
But they're not even good, that's the funny part.

Primaris marines are a total joke! Can you find me a single person who actually struggles to beat primaris marines? This person does not exist!

Hah, seriously. I was thinking of making an Ultramarines Successor Chapter Primaris army... But than I decided that I lose enough with my Blood Angels Successor, I don't need an army that will perform even worse in the Plasma/mortal wound spam that 8th currently is.

To be honest, that is part of the reason I switched my army to Space Marines. Their model line is extensive and they see so much support. I can see why people who play other armies would resent that though.

I am envious of Ultra’s though with the wide array of special characters, good rules, etc.

Median Trace wrote:
To be honest, that is part of the reason I switched my army to Space Marines. Their model line is extensive and they see so much support. I can see why people who play other armies would resent that though.

I am envious of Ultra’s though with the wide array of special characters, good rules, etc.

I actually swapped back to Marines recently too, I took a few years off from playing anything in Power Armour (besides the occasional Inquisitor or so), since I got tired of playing games that were Loyalist Marines vs Loyalist Marines. It has been fun to take a break from my Guard since in the area I moved to, I am the odd man out playing a Loyalist Marine army.

I do agree with being a little envious of the Ultramarines though, I don't use named characters in my army, but probably would if I had a Scout HQ and Tank Commaner... Wonder if we will get generic versions of them. Probably not with the focus currently being on Primaris.

Most people that hate Ultramarines are from England or USA. They are still bitter about Boadicea losing agaisnt the Romans.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

He even had to play nice with the Imperial factions, given that he really hates the idea of being considered an Imperial Saint and the idea that the Ecchlesiarchy forced upon him.. But they are too strong to really root out and it does give the people hope, even as he's forced to acquiescence to their presence.

Yep. Turning Guilliman in to a mary sue like many fans do does both him and the setting at large a disservice-- it lessens, cheapens, and makes shallow an otherwise deep and interesting setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I actually swapped back to Marines recently too, I took a few years off from playing anything in Power Armour (besides the occasional Inquisitor or so), since I got tired of playing games that were Loyalist Marines vs Loyalist Marines. It has been fun to take a break from my Guard since in the area I moved to, I am the odd man out playing a Loyalist Marine army

What's funny is people call me a marine hater... but the only army that I own which isn't shelved is around ~2000 points of Blood Angels terminators, scouts, and death company.

Frankly, at this point, I'm wondering if the people spending all their time whining about how marines are weak are the real players who hate marines, and they're just defensively projecting that on to me.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

So was Vandire.

Ruin wrote:

So was Vandire.

I think a lot of people misinterpret the resentment of power armor, in that other army's blame GW, not the players.

Of course it's not Biff the Black Templar player's fault that Marines have the largest model line.

The resentment is directed at GW for their, really, explicitly blatant favoritism. I don't blame the Dark Angel player for getting his codex before mine, but I for sure will express my resentment that every army that's just Space Marines with some extra units tacked on with a different doctorine gets their book before I do.

Edit: Spelling

I think a lot of people misinterpret the resentment of power armor, in that other army's blame GW, not the players.

Of course it's not Biff the Black Templar player's fault that Marines have the largest model line.

Oh no, there are some people who actually blame the players for buying marine stuff which further incentivizes GW to produce more to meet demand.

Not that many comparatively, but there are some out there who really do just blame anyone who buys such.

Well after a couple weeks of checking back on this thread I think I have worked out the complicated web of Ultramarine hate. So here are the common reasons I've sussed out.

1. I hate space marines in general and UM are the pinnacle of what I hate about them
2. They get prioritized in marketing and model release
3. They are "Mary Sues"/They are boring
4. Matt Ward/Chapter Jealousy/2nd edition codex naming
5. Ultramarines/Space Marines are super OP
6. Meta is defined by Guilliman/If I play Imperial I must take Guilliman
7. They are big heroes in the lore who ruin grimdark by being cartoony and always win when they shouldn't
8. They are too popular
9. Part of 40k culture is hating UM/ in + out crowd

That's all I could think of, there are probably more but these are the ones that stand out to me atm. To be honest I find most of these complaints very hollow. Some make sense but I feel they are wrongfully targeted at UM and SM in general. I think #9 is the heart of it and many of the other reasons are just layers on it but here is my response to these.

1. Fair enough, you are likely part of the 9 crowd.
2. True but from what I understand they are the biggest selling faction, how else would they prioritize it?
3. I would argue pretty much everything in 40k is a mary sue. Nothing truly permanent can happen to any faction since it will po everyone who bought those models. Boring is subjective, the factions are made to appeal to different people. Many people like to play heroic style characters, you just aren't one of them.
4. Get over it
5. Doesn't seem to be true. Tournament results would suggest Chaos and AM are OP right now. 40k will never be balanced, it's too asymmetrical so why care.
6. Refer to 5. While Guilliman is good and should probably be more expensive than he is, this doesn't seem to be true.
7. So? 40k is incredibly cartoony, that is part of the appeal. There is room for heroes in grimdark. If you go full grimdark you get End Times Fantasy and who wants that for 40k?
8. My roommate, who is just starting his army, is the first UM player I have met. I never see them played where I live and I live in a major city.
9. Probably the most true. I hope people will eventually get over this. If you are a UM player I don't think you should get eviscerated by the community, its not like they are an OP chapter.

brettdavis1991 wrote:


8. My roommate, who is just starting his army, is the first UM player I have met. I never see them played where I live and I live in a major city.

That's extremely anecdotal. I've been in the hobby since 3rd edition and approx 2/3 (but probably more) of the players that I have met in almost 20 years owns a SM army. The majority of them were UM or vanilla marines, only a few were black templars, salamanders, BA, DA or SW. I don't even remember playing against another chapter. And I haven't faced black templars or BA in years.

I can't stand them for several reasons and my feeling started in 3rd edition, not recently, but their effectiveness in the game has never been one of those reasons, I couldn't care less about tournament lists.

brettdavis1991 wrote:
4. Get over it

This, of course, is about the most mature way of handling discourse. Never mind the valid reasons behind the argument you simply dismissed with a snide remark.




I'd love to know what army you play, and more specifically what faction. Show up with an Ulthwe army and have whomever you are facing say something akin to "Oh, you play Biel Tan." It's an insult to every bit of work you've put into the army and any investment you have in the fluff of your faction.

But yeah, "get over it".

Given that your argument is that you hate Ultramarines because they got a codex in 2nd edition instead of them desiring to make a generic vanilla dex or one about your specific chapter instead.

Valid reasons to hate them to this day and people who play them of course for the entire run of 40k indeed.

That they named the codex after one specific chapter, which led to the whole "poster child" syndrome. My chapter was on the cover of two game books, maybe three. On the package of 1 non-Special character package. I'd have been fine with them being on none, but as it stood that 2nd Ed. rewrite of fluff saw my Chapter move from founding Chapter to successor Chapter to almost being swept from the fluff entirely to being brought back to the forefront for the cover of the 3rd Ed. codex and the Land Raider box art. Honestly, I'm shocked my Chapter even got decals.

So not exactly what you state my reasoning is, but still valid to resent the Ultramarines' treatment by GW.

And who said I hate the people that play them? I said I get annoyed at the people who referred to any chapter that wasn't DA/SW/BT/BA as Ultramarines. Annoyed. Drastically different than hate. Unless you were part of an organization with a rich, proud history, you wouldn't get why I feel that way.

Unless you were part of an organization with a rich, proud history, you wouldn't get why I feel that way.

Yes because the Ultramarines have no proud, rich history in the backstory, just endless victories and celebrations.. Though I'm not as sure this is what you mean, could you clarify this?

Course I don't play just Ultramarines, I play multiple things (Primarily Chaos) but as I've constantly heard every single joke/criticism about Ultramarines I tend to avoid playing them just because it seems like everyone's read 1d4chan and listened to text to speech and constantly spouts things that aren't true, haven't been true, or aren't really less bs then some of the other things people conveniently ignore from other xenos and chapters even as I play a game.

After a while of this, It's gotten old, so very old.

I'm still working my way through the game but I'm not a fan of space marines, even tho I've gotten some primaris since I think they look awesome, but I mainly use Dark Eldar and Astra Militarum and Adeptus Mechanicus and I just dislike how Marines seem to get all the new models, get their codexs out faster then others. Mainly focusing on my love for my Dark Eldar I know I will see death watch, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolfs before I even see my Dark Eldar codex. Thats my only dislike about space marines, just wish they'd released all the main armys codexs first and then started releasing all their other factions of space marines.

UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

 Blackie wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:


8. My roommate, who is just starting his army, is the first UM player I have met. I never see them played where I live and I live in a major city.

That's extremely anecdotal. I've been in the hobby since 3rd edition and approx 2/3 (but probably more) of the players that I have met in almost 20 years owns a SM army. The majority of them were UM or vanilla marines, only a few were black templars, salamanders, BA, DA or SW. I don't even remember playing against another chapter. And I haven't faced black templars or BA in years.

I can't stand them for several reasons and my feeling started in 3rd edition, not recently, but their effectiveness in the game has never been one of those reasons, I couldn't care less about tournament lists.

Yes it is anecdotal as is your example but if you look at every poll of what people play and their favorite chapter, ultras are far from the most popular. Usually fists, dark angels, or space wolves win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:
4. Get over it

This, of course, is about the most mature way of handling discourse. Never mind the valid reasons behind the argument you simply dismissed with a snide remark.




I'd love to know what army you play, and more specifically what faction. Show up with an Ulthwe army and have whomever you are facing say something akin to "Oh, you play Biel Tan." It's an insult to every bit of work you've put into the army and any investment you have in the fluff of your faction.

But yeah, "get over it".

I'm dismissive of it because I don't think it is a valid reason. It was over two decades ago. It's hard to believe some people are still salty over that two decades later.

I play AM and Chaos but plan on doing a DA Army when the Codex comes out.

ChazSexington wrote:UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

I assume you're talking about the Battle of Macragge when you talk about one company defeating Hive Fleet Behemoth?

If so, you are probably wrong on EVERY front about that.
Firstly, the entire Chapter, plus Titan Legions, the local Battlefleet and Ultramar PDF forces, were engaged in the war. The 1st Company was left to defend the polar fortresses, only supported by auxilia and some Titans, and were pretty much wiped clean out. The rest of the Chapter was doing hit-and-run attacks on the swarm (see Cold Steel Ridge).

In fact, the Ultramarines pretty much LOST every major ground battle there - barring a few survivors from the southern polar fortress and the 3rd and 7th companies clearing out the infested remains of them, the Tyranids slaughtered the Ultramarines at Cold Steel Ridge, and annihilated all defenders of the northern fortress, killed most of the southern, and even brought down the majority of the Titans deployed.
The only reason the Ultramarines survived is because they had to use unconventional void tactics and kamikaze'd a battleship to suck the Tyranid fleet into the Warp.
Not to mention, Behemoth was a smaller Hive Fleet than Leviathan. So no, not one company destroying a Hive Fleet at all.

Ward was three editions ago. How long can this be dragged out for?

Having a Primarch return is a big deal, but Guilliman was always in the contention for coming back. Whether he would or not is a different matter, but if people are bothered about a Primarch coming back, then why don't I hear more complaints about Vulkan returning in the War of the Beast?
Realistically, either Guilliman or Lion would come back - as it stands, only Guilliman has for the moment.

Again, it's less of an "Ultramarines are special" and more "we didn't want a Primarch". Not just because they're Ultramarines.

Hm. Do people really hate UM? Hate is a strong word, as it represents a poisonous emotion that will eat you from within, destroying you as a person. I doubt anyone really hates them.

I tell you what the issue is. Memes. 4chan is a 'tarded place that ruins plenty of good things. Blood Ravens, one of my favourite Chapters, the one that got me into 40k, got the magpie meme because of an RPG-themed game design. UM get hate because the Wardian meme got popularizes. This isn't helped my the TTS series that capitalizes on said meme.

It is popular to dislike poster boys and it is popular to go along with memes. To those people I say: Grow up. You behave like Space Wolves.

To those who genuinely dislike the art style or design behind UM I say: I respect your opinion, though 'hate' is a very strong word.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Unless you were part of an organization with a rich, proud history, you wouldn't get why I feel that way.

Yes because the Ultramarines have no proud, rich history in the backstory, just endless victories and celebrations.. Though I'm not as sure this is what you mean, could you clarify this?

Course I don't play just Ultramarines, I play multiple things (Primarily Chaos) but as I've constantly heard every single joke/criticism about Ultramarines I tend to avoid playing them just because it seems like everyone's read 1d4chan and listened to text to speech and constantly spouts things that aren't true, haven't been true, or aren't really less bs then some of the other things people conveniently ignore from other xenos and chapters even as I play a game.

After a while of this, It's gotten old, so very old.

Yes, I will explain.

I've served in the US military for over 20 years. I also served in the company that my two great-uncles fought and died with in WW2. There is a MASSIVE history behind that unit, and it'd be no different if someone saw my 38th Infantry Division patch and said "Oh, so you're in the 101st Airborne.", which pisses on both units' legacies. Players calling me an Ultramarines player when I play Crimson Fists is like a micro version of that. I realize the magnitude is different, but the feeling behind it is the same.

That addresses my annoyance (not hate) at the player base who does that.


Now as far as GW? It's not hate, but it's bad form to play favorites at all within your product, especially when that product is supposed to be a reasonably balanced game.

brettdavis1991 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:
4. Get over it

This, of course, is about the most mature way of handling discourse. Never mind the valid reasons behind the argument you simply dismissed with a snide remark.




I'd love to know what army you play, and more specifically what faction. Show up with an Ulthwe army and have whomever you are facing say something akin to "Oh, you play Biel Tan." It's an insult to every bit of work you've put into the army and any investment you have in the fluff of your faction.

But yeah, "get over it".

I'm dismissive of it because I don't think it is a valid reason. It was over two decades ago. It's hard to believe some people are still salty over that two decades later.

I play AM and Chaos but plan on doing a DA Army when the Codex comes out.

See the above, and even though it was over two decades ago, the attitude still persists.

Do People really mistake space marine chapters as iconic as crimsom fist for ultramarines?
Normally people dont know wich tau sept or hive fleet goes with a certain paintjob, but marines?

Galas wrote:Do People really mistake space marine chapters as iconic as crimsom fist for ultramarines?
Normally people dont know wich tau sept or hive fleet goes with a certain paintjob, but marines?

As I stated earlier, since 2nd Edition ANY Marine army that was Space Wolves, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels got lumped in as "Ultramarines" as that was what the codex of the time was called. There are still people TO THIS DAY who use that blanket identifier, and we're talking younger players as well as grognards.

I don’t have anything against them apart from the whole Primaris Marines thing. I haven’t read up much on 8th though, is Guilliman still portrayed as invincible and infallible? If not then that would go some way to reversing what Ward did. I don’t find them nearly as obnoxious as Tau or SW though.

 ChazSexington wrote:
UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

Nah they didnt beat the Alpha Legion at asymetric warfare, all the way through that book the Alphas had the upper hand, all Dorn did was work out what the logical end game was, and prep for it, it was obvious in the end what they were planning and that was the weakness of the Alpha legion, they were so arrogant that they could hide the fact that they had a fleet incoming that they didnt think it could be stopped, where as the Fists knew that they could not counter the Alphas directly at there own game and sought help, they adapted, the Alphas should have cancelled the attack the second they had been compromised, that was there error, Dorn exploited this as you would expect him to.

Thats just my take away from that book anyway and may not be 100% correct.

 Formosa wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

Nah they didnt beat the Alpha Legion at asymetric warfare, all the way through that book the Alphas had the upper hand, all Dorn did was work out what the logical end game was, and prep for it, it was obvious in the end what they were planning and that was the weakness of the Alpha legion, they were so arrogant that they could hide the fact that they had a fleet incoming that they didnt think it could be stopped, where as the Fists knew that they could not counter the Alphas directly at there own game and sought help, they adapted, the Alphas should have cancelled the attack the second they had been compromised, that was there error, Dorn exploited this as you would expect him to.

Thats just my take away from that book anyway and may not be 100% correct.

The Alpha Legion won all but the last battle, meaning they were crushed. It doesn't matter if they blow up a few statues and kill a few Imperial Fists if they lose most of their fleet and a Primarch. Dorn had his fleet ready in ambush and was always going to win. The Alpha Legion were definitely beaten.

The only way the Alpha Legion could claim any sense of victory would be if they had killed Dorn and Alpharius had escaped, because they would always definitely have lost the space battle.

One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

A while back someone commented that the UM were retconned into a Founding Chapter. Would anyone like to elaborate on that?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A while back someone commented that the UM were retconned into a Founding Chapter. Would anyone like to elaborate on that?

Originally, they were 3rd Founding or something like that. They got retconned into a 1st Founder after.

Not like that was the only major change from rogue trader to second that's for sure.

Can I still field my half-Eldar Librarian?

(don't actually have one...)

Rainbow Warriors were a founding chapter in Rogue Trader. Just saying.

reasons to not like Ultramarines

Telion,
Kronos,
etc.

Hmm I want to play a generic Space Marine Chapter.
Well, I like the techmarine in a tank for BS 2+
and when the tank is destroyed, I get my techmarine for free

Snipers might be nice, oh well let's add in this guy

I can combine the Cptn and Lt as BG

and they can only be taken as Ultramarines

What happened to the rigid Hide bound Codex thumpers
10 man tac squad with a dolphin and a flamer?

With a dolphin.. Is that even english? I'm not even sure what that one's complaining about, aside from that certain chapters have their own special characters.

I'll like for generic versions of the ultramarine characters.

I just want my own Cyrus, a Scout Character

Agreed, they should really create more generic characters.

They won't, of course, cause they can hype the feth out of named ones. But they should.

Bharring wrote:
One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

In my experience, it's usually players who can't disassociate fluff vs game mechanics.

In the plethora of SM novels and background they are unstoppable machines of war. Played a game against someone once who complained and was very sour the whole game because his favourite tactical squad failed a charge against some Nurglings and failed their morale test following turn running off the table "that is completely against the fluff, marines would never run away.. rant rant" . (obviously pre 8th)

So yeah, was looking forward to that game ending. No one really played him much a while later for similar experiences and he ended up leaving the store altogether.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Bharring wrote:
One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

In my experience, it's usually players who can't disassociate fluff vs game mechanics.

In the plethora of SM novels and background they are unstoppable machines of war. Played a game against someone once who complained and was very sour the whole game because his favourite tactical squad failed a charge against some Nurglings and failed their morale test following turn running off the table "that is completely against the fluff, marines would never run away.. rant rant" . (obviously pre 8th)

So yeah, was looking forward to that game ending. No one really played him much a while later for similar experiences and he ended up leaving the store altogether.

It is grating, but that has nothing to do with Ultramarines. I agree with the sentiments above and UM (successor) is my primary army. It's just a Marine fluff/game dissociation as stated above.

There should be generic marine special characters, I think that's a fine idea.

Indeed. Apologies for going off topic. My comment was more directed against marines in general rather than directly UM.

It may not have anything to do with UM directly, it has a proportionate frequency equal to how often the fluff keeps their faction humble. Chaos Marines and space Marines are by all accounts about equal in combat but you're going to hear "how did my super special guys fail, that's so unrealistic!" A lot more from loyalist players.

the_scotsman wrote:
It may not have anything to do with UM directly, it has a proportionate frequency equal to how often the fluff keeps their faction humble. Chaos Marines and space Marines are by all accounts about equal in combat but you're going to hear "how did my super special guys fail, that's so unrealistic!" A lot more from loyalist players.

Anecdotal, and also while it might be true, given that there are more imperial marine players than chaos marines, it's entirely possible the two are proportionately equal in the percentage of players that make that statement.

For my own anecdotal, I only know 3 chaos marine players in my local group and I've heard that statement about their marines from all 3.

I recall (Maybe from a White Dwarf or something) that Telion, Kronos etc were intended to be generic characters.

Where, but that all changed.

I mean, we HAVE generic characters and we got relics. What we need is a way to pay for maybe a special snowflake rule for your dude/dudette.

To be fair, in 5th they actually encouraged you to file the names off the characters and make them fit your own army. It wasn’t until chapter tactics became a formalized thing in 6th that you couldn’t do that any more.

So Lysander could be the grim 1st company captain for any chapter, and the tough, half bionic, combi-flamer toting Cassus could fit in just about anywhere.

It was when I saw a Salamanders army led by Pedro Vulcan with Crimson Fists traits and the Hold The Line special rule that I saw the ridiculousness of that process.



Now, Lysander as a CF Captain worked surprisingly well.

 Nevelon wrote:
To be fair, in 5th they actually encouraged you to file the names off the characters and make them fit your own army. It wasn’t until chapter tactics became a formalized thing in 6th that you couldn’t do that any more.

So Lysander could be the grim 1st company captain for any chapter, and the tough, half bionic, combi-flamer toting Cassus could fit in just about anywhere.

Which was definitely the best part of the codex. Well, that and Tactical Squads still had Heavy Flamers...

Still, an option to purchase special rules like that would be neat. My generic Biker Captain with the Teeth Of Terra from a White Scars successor is always cool, but if I could pay points for an aura to reroll charges? That'd be cool. Only issue is how you price that.


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 Just Tony wrote:
It was when I saw a Salamanders army led by Pedro Vulcan with Crimson Fists traits and the Hold The Line special rule that I saw the ridiculousness of that process.



Now, Lysander as a CF Captain worked surprisingly well.

As ridiculous as it sounds, it LOOKS good on the table too.

I think it still comes back to given every piece of fluff and rules about Space Wolves in the last ten years or more - why are they not hated more than Ultramarines?

They went from being a normal Chapter (RT and Book of the Astronomican) to a somewhat unusual chapter with Viking flavour then suddenly they became WOLF WOLF Wolves.

Not only that but every time they did anything - it was sooo Epic! they said feth the Inquisition, the Grey Knights, the Administratum, they pretty much fought the Imperium single handed during Vanidre's rein and as time passed GW then made them more OP. Cos Wolves

Yeah some chapters have about 20 void ships - well the Space Wolves have about 2-300 - that's how Epic and Wolfy they are. There might only be 1500 of them but that's how many ships they have - oh and a few Star Fortress's that they crew form somewhere - cos no-one other than Wolves ever leaves Fenris - well except when they do. Cos Wolves

And so it goes on and on in each edition - I am really worried what the 8th Ed Space Wolf Codex will look and read like - I assume Russ will come back - (which is cool -certainly better than that prize Dick the Lion) but will he be a Primarch or will he be just a giant Wolf-Primarch on his Wolf Throne, pulled by Wolf-Wolves on their wolf sled pulled by even bigger wolf-wolf wolves in wolf armour............ Cos Wolves

When you read this sort of thing - we do people hate Ultras more than Wolves? ( I still have my SW army but it has no wolf on wolf action or similar)

And then there are Dark Angels - it started (again) but later than Wolves as a normal chapter with a couple of interesting formations - one the Deathwatch with a interesting background and everything and then time passed and they became super-secret traitor hunters that protect the Imperium by killing other Imperials whenever they are suspected - or just in the wrong place or just trying to help them, leaving battles and campaigns midway cos they saw a single Fallen. Then there is the whole "ok look we are a secret Legion - that's how awesomely secret we are. I miss using my old Dark Angels.

So the UM - yeah RG is powerful in game and fluff and yeah its annoying that the UM get more characters than the other neglected Chapters - but they don't get their own Codex do they - not like Wolves, Vampires or the Wannabe Knights Templars that the Dark Angels have sadly become. They loose battles as much as an Marine does in the fluff - well maybe not the Blood Angels and co they do get hammered a lot in the fluff.

If people think that RG is acting like a dick wait till we get the Lion back - as spoilt as Fulgrim - I can't recall a single part of his story that is not either dull or shows him in a bad light?

Because it's a lot easier to just laugh at the space puppies.

Also because small annoyances like naming conventions and utterly irrelevant fluff details like how many spaceships a faction has does not outweigh an annoying and, more importantly, ubquitous aesthetic.

Ultras are loudly and constantly shoved in your face as the best of the best. Guilliman in his ridiculous pinheaded skinny-pantsed toilet despoiler pose is every other post on 40k mini painting sites and splashed across every other Warhammer community article. We haven't heard a peep from the wolves since WoM in 7th Ed, but we see a limited edition Ultramarines captain or a new kit with Ultramarines on the front coming out every month.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Having to deal with some annoying bit of bureaucratic paperwork every day is more annoying than having to deal with jury duty once every couple years, even if jury duty is more irritating.

The existence of an equally or even more annoying thing you see less often is a lesser evil to an annoying thing shoved in your face every 2 weeks.