On the board I’ve found playing against them to be an annoying experience, their 2+ rerolls, and mortal wound generation is uncanny from my experience, and as a death player it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 2+ rerolling saves are a toxic mechanic. I don’t find them OP, I just find them annoying.

Now, anothet big reason I dislike them though is that I find their design to be boring, nothing about their models scream “interesting” and they’re generic paladins with Xbox huge hammers. I swear, they look ripped right from diablo or WoW.

My last and biggest complaint though, is that GW pushes them so hard. Why is it that when I open my death book I keep running into ilistrations of generic heroic paladin marines beating my army or doing a heroic stand against many? I thought my book was supposed to get me excited about my army and not stormcast. What else I dislike is that you see them everywhere, they get new models every week when my poor skelemans have only just gotten new models after how long? Do we really need another stormcast unit wihen half the death factions are unplayable?

They’re bland, annoying to play against, and keep hogging new models and keep glory hogging. I feel like at this point they’re fleshing out Boba the hutt, when half the other factions are starving.


As a person who got into AOS recently, I find the push of sigmarines to be uncanny. In 40k, you see a lot of space marines, but it somehow doesn’t feel as bad as it is with sigmarines.

It's pretty simple why they are pushed so hard - They are the army of the god of Sigmar, in the game Age of Sigmar. They're 40K's Ultramarines. They are the posterboys for the range and the whole range was made just for the game. They will always be iconic for the game and as as such as plastered in most places.

In regards to playing against them - they are very good. Mainly for reasons above ^ they are Sigmar's posterboys. Personally I don't find playing against them that bad, but I play Seraphon and I think they're in a pretty good spot.

As a death player appreciate it may be rough, they need some love and playing against one of the most stacked armies can be rough.

For me they are the primary reason why I have yet to really start getting into AOS and I share the feeling of them being pushed just to much while other factions (primary death) are left to wait.

 Jaxler wrote:
I swear, they look ripped right from diablo or WoW.

Are you sure ? 2 years ago people were saying that they're 1:1 SM rip offs and when I asked "Hey what about this DIABLO 3 cinematic (and other wow references maybe can't remember exactly)?" I got "Nah dude, they're nothing like them!"

Otherwise I love stormcast. They're one of the reasons I started AoS. It was and still is normal that they get the glory as they're the primary heroes of the setting. First to battle the chaos hordes in the new age, win against imposible odds blah blah these kind of things.

dislike them only for their marine looks, and that they have forced regular humans into a state of total pointless.
that some of them has broken mecanics or are op dont bother me and i am a 1st edition death supporter to the core. (never going to play 2nd edition untill death is un nerfed)

stormcast has made the age of fantasy into the age of spacemarines.

despise everything about them, so I neither play them nor collect them. I do however happily slaughter them on the tabletop.

Was ambivalent too them until recently when I sat down and read their battle tome. Now they're actually growing on me a lot, so much so I may well pick up the new Christmas army box and do the Vanguard Chamber.

I'm a big fan, as a Bret player it's nice to see GW finally heavily supporting an army of noble knights.

I also love their Baroque armor which has a heavy Dark Souls flavor to me along with their God-king who's battling demons and undead and looking to end a cycle of a strange world (when you actually see the workings of the DS "world" it's rather bizarre).

Though I think their time is ending, they are the legendary army that rights the great evils of an age and then is made obscure by the passing of time. With how the rumors and leaks are pointing to new releases and a darker direction that I think the Stormcast are going to see this year as their last big hurrah for a long time.

and that they have forced regular humans into a state of total pointless. 

Hmm, I don't believe so. Humans massively outnumber them and are needed for the duties of watching over and settling the vast new lands Order reclaimed. Even storywise there's been many times the aid of regular people was the humble factor that lead to victory.

When the gates of Azyrheim opened it was such armies that immediately went to routing chaos by cannon and lance at the first chance they got and then bravely held their new cities like the Ironweld who annihilated the invaders of Greywater with massed artillery.

They only really didn't get used at the beginning was for to do so would cause the last realm to open up and be lost to chaos' infinite legions. Thus why the Stormcast, a elite force that could travel beyond the gates without opening them, was crucial for allowing Sigmar to expand his reach without exposing himself and weaken chaos' grip on the realms.

Humans are definately not pointless - play against a solid Free Peoples player / army.

You'll find out cannons, hellblasters and gunpowder are effective as ever at killing most things.

Normal humans are only "pointless" because of a lack of releases, and that can be said for just about every pre-End Times range. In the fluff, humans have been extremely important in rebuilding the world. The Stormcast are a tool of war, and are thus mistrusted by a large portion of the population. Once you start looking closer at the lore, Stormcasts actually get pretty interesting.

I do fully agree that they are getting a disproportionate number of releases, but I'm hoping fan feedback will eventually lead to that being toned down in favor of fleshing out other factions.

GW is really running an aggressive marketing for SCE. I have an army of them but haven't put them on a table in a while. It'll likely stay that way.

Hot an AOS player and haven't been following the fluff, but here's my take.

When they were first released I was under the impression that they were literally the spirits of mortal heroes possessing suits of armour - essentially golems. I thought that was why we never saw one without a helmet initially. I quite liked that idea. I was actually quite disappointed when they turned out to be people, but bigger.

 CoreCommander wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
I swear, they look ripped right from diablo or WoW.

Are you sure ? 2 years ago people were saying that they're 1:1 SM rip offs and when I asked "Hey what about this DIABLO 3 cinematic (and other wow references maybe can't remember exactly)?" I got "Nah dude, they're nothing like them!"

Otherwise I love stormcast. They're one of the reasons I started AoS. It was and still is normal that they get the glory as they're the primary heroes of the setting. First to battle the chaos hordes in the new age, win against imposible odds blah blah these kind of things.

That’s fine and dandy and all, but do I need to see it in my book over and over? The best and only illustration of a stormcast I like is the one where he bashes a pink horror and gets melted in the face by brimstone horrors. It was edgy dark and actually felt insanely refreshing to see a stormcast lose for once.

Haha, they lose a lot. Especially later in the art(Flesh-Eater Court onward) and definitely in the storyline where they get killed left and right with the battle for the All-Gates being a Stormcast massacre.

[Edit]Story spoiler.

They've definitely taken their scars to win the realms back from chaos.

Hang on, what happened to Vandus?

....crap. I didn't think that counted as spoilers at this point. -_-

Sorry.

Are you sure? I finished reading book 4 (the big one, not the novels) a while ago and while there is a Stormcast leader that gets eaten by Dhorgar, it wasn't Vandus.

Are stormcast externals the ones without helmets?

Joking aside, i've got no problem with them. Game wise they can be tough but they're not unbeatable. And i honestly think the marine comparison is overdone; it had some weight at the start but they've got enough backstory to seperate them now.

The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

My complaint isn’t that they’re too similar to marines aesthetically. I love how marines look. My problem is that sigmarines look generic to me when compared to other fantasy things. They’re less interesting paladins that fail to be over the top in the right ways, so I just meh.

Indeed, they're far closer to Chaos knights now.

Though they do make interesting foils to Space marines that are just killing machines with some noble traits and little humanity while Stormcasts are noble knights that have to be killing machines while constantly losing their humanity's terrified of that.

Are stormcast externals the ones without helmets? 

Haha, nice one.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Are you sure? I finished reading book 4 (the big one, not the novels) a while ago and while there is a Stormcast leader that gets eaten by Dhorgar, it wasn't Vandus.

I personally love the aesthetics of the figures, at least for the Stormcast skirmish force I have painted so far, because I converted them all to have bare faces so they all have personalities to match their poses, and are painted in a more normal color scheme. I wanted them to be more like knightly paladin paragons, rather than war-golems like they were featured as much too often in the beginning. I personally think bare faces make them so much cooler. Cant wait to get both female figures, as well.

Gameplay-wise I am coming from a totally different place with them. I play all my games with the Age of Fantasy ruleset from One Page Games, where Stormcast are multi-wound figures, and their weapons and armor benefits are much more toned down, but you still get the cool feel of powerful troops that are balanced by being outnumbered in most fights, unless it's against Ogres.

Ive actually gone all of the way around the bend - I really did not like the SCE at launch, Andy have grown to like them over the two years since.

GW was too tight lipped about the fluff at launch, creating a bland world seemingly populated by nothing but Khorne warriors in a wasteland. The SCE fluff was so vague and scant that many players couldn't actually say what they were. Are there people in the suits? Orcs, dwarves, elves? Women as well as men? I honestly read what came in the starter set, and came away thinking of them as boring clone troopers who could infinitely re spawn, battling chaos over nothing for all eternity.

Since then, the world and background has grown up. The people in the suits have doubts, fears, and memories. The respawn isn't perfect by a mile, and even when it's working the individual that comes back isn't exactly who his fellows recall. There are women in the ranks, and they're not reformed into men or given skimpy scout armor, they're just like the boys, swinging hammers and trying not to die. No Orcs, No elves.

But, wildest of all - no xenophobia. Stormcast want to ally with everyone, in hopes of defeating Chaos. They don't care if you're a tree or a dog with a bird head, if you'll be so kind as to murder a follower of the dark gods they want to work with you. If you're a diseased chaos worshipping scum bag, but they can find one bit of good in you, they'll hit you with the lantern of purity and turn you into one of them. Coming from 40k, that's the thing that makes AoS novels seem entirely different to the adventures of Space Marines.

 EnTyme wrote:
Normal humans are only "pointless" because of a lack of releases, and that can be said for just about every pre-End Times range. In the fluff, humans have been extremely important in rebuilding the world. The Stormcast are a tool of war, and are thus mistrusted by a large portion of the population. Once you start looking closer at the lore, Stormcasts actually get pretty interesting.

I do fully agree that they are getting a disproportionate number of releases, but I'm hoping fan feedback will eventually lead to that being toned down in favor of fleshing out other factions.

Disproportionate is putting it mildly; the Stormcast Eternals alone have almost as many releases as the Chaos Grand Alliance post-End Times releases taken together.

I think the biggest issue I have with them is that they all blend together. Every Stormcast is a dude/dudette wearing half a car; I wish there was less armor around, maybe have the Judicators (archers/crossbowmen) be more lightly armored, like a Space Marine Scout with a Tau-style shoulder-shield to break up the monotony of everyone being a walking suit of WoW Paladin Raid Gear.

Oggthrok wrote:
I've actually gone all of the way around the bend - I really did not like the SCE at launch, and have grown to like them over the two years since.

GW was too tight lipped about the fluff at launch, creating a bland world seemingly populated by nothing but Khorne warriors in a wasteland. The SCE fluff was so vague and scant that many players couldn't actually say what they were. Are there people in the suits? Orcs, dwarves, elves? Women as well as men? I honestly read what came in the starter set, and came away thinking of them as boring clone troopers who could infinitely re spawn, battling chaos over nothing for all eternity.

This might also be an issue; you only get one chance to make a first impression. The fluff at launch was incredibly bare-bones, and it colored perception of the SE, and AoS in general, very negatively.

I do not mind them. They bring some nice High Fantasy theme for the good guys.

I don't hate them nor like them. Haven't bought any of them and will not in the foreseeable future, but they fill a niche that Warhammer missed, at least for the fantasy setting.

Also, being Italian I kind of like the 1500-1600-esque decorations they have and the wings on Prosecutors.

Yes, they ARE bland, but in the same blandness Space Marines have. Some people like big dudes in plate armor swinging hammers while not showing emotions. Others don't. Still, I don't dislike them, and they have a nice feel to them, as a faction.

Stormcast are not interesting to me either.
I don't like them either. You should see the hate they get on /tg/

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

Rob Symes said on Warhammer weekly that they are identical. Teleport/drop pod, god king on a throne and "they even have bolters now".

The "bolters" are even called bolt stormers(fitting though as they shoot bolts) and their organization is done in "chambers".

So yes they definitely were space marine inspired but they've come so far from that and have differences that really stand out.

Stormcasts at their core are just brave militia Sigmar saved from death and put in magic armor as his knights to turn back the tide. They have emotions, fears, cherished memories of friends and family while taking a noble pride in their new status that gets them through their trial-by-fire hellish battles as much as it can get them killed by doing a courtly bow to a Ironjaw warlord they were hoping to ally with.

It's that humanity and their terror of losing it that makes them more than just fantasy marines.

, maybe have the Judicators (archers/crossbowmen) be more lightly armored, like a Space Marine Scout 

That's basically the Vanguard. Before that the Stormcast were being dropped straight into hellscapes and surrounded on all sides by warriors, undead, monsters and soul devouring daemons with no proper battlelines whatsoever.

Lightly armored soldiers wouldn't have survived long enough to help. (Indeed, more than a few battles in the novels have the judicators taking up swords and needing to join the swirling melee)

But, wildest of all - no xenophobia. Stormcast want to ally with everyone, in hopes of defeating Chaos. They don't care if you're a tree or a dog with a bird head, if you'll be so kind as to murder a follower of the dark gods they want to work with you. If you're a diseased chaos worshipping scum bag, but they can find one bit of good in you, they'll hit you with the lantern of purity and turn you into one of them. Coming from 40k, that's the thing that makes AoS novels seem entirely different to the adventures of Space Marines. 

^^ Another big reason I love them. Same reason I love Bretonnia and seeing the wood elf book with a knight aiding it's forces, those kind of alliances and friendships are really inspiring while adding so much potential for future interactions instead of "war and more war".

@AegisGrimm,

Awesome Stormcast!

 VanHammer wrote:
You should see the hate they get on /tg/

Which makes them different from everything else on the internet how?

 VanHammer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

Rob Symes said on Warhammer weekly that they are identical. Teleport/drop pod, god king on a throne and "they even have bolters now".

Oggthrok wrote:

But, wildest of all - no xenophobia. Stormcast want to ally with everyone, in hopes of defeating Chaos. They don't care if you're a tree or a dog with a bird head, if you'll be so kind as to murder a follower of the dark gods they want to work with you. If you're a diseased chaos worshipping scum bag, but they can find one bit of good in you, they'll hit you with the lantern of purity and turn you into one of them. Coming from 40k, that's the thing that makes AoS novels seem entirely different to the adventures of Space Marines.

This is very much a plus for me.

 EnTyme wrote:

 VanHammer wrote:
You should see the hate they get on /tg/

Which makes them different from everything else on the internet how?

 VanHammer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

Rob Symes said on Warhammer weekly that they are identical. Teleport/drop pod, god king on a throne and "they even have bolters now".

Again, that's a cosmetic similarity.

And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil? Yes, Stormcast were obviously influenced by the Space Marines. I don't think anyone can argue that. They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

I don't like their helmets. The ones that the Paladins wear are cool, but the rest, not my cup of tea.

The rest of them is very cool. Giant armoured men and women mounting gryphon-giraffes, Dragons without wings and with the angelical theme, very Diablo or Darksriders.

Thats why all my Stormcast (I have a small force to be honest) have normal helmets.

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil? Yes, Stormcast were obviously influenced by the Space Marines. I don't think anyone can argue that. They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

They really are. They're incredibly similar in looks, methods and background. They even get the same disproportionate support from GW.

In regards to the "drop podding" idea, that's only marginally true. They are supposed to be the saviors, the light in the dark, the heroes coming in the nigh of time.

So what's more appropriate than appearing out of thin air, with lightning bolts striking the enemy army, the clear light from the discharge shining on these golden, faceless giants come to save the retreating mortals and fending off the chaos, undead or savage enemies?

I think it is a good way of representing such a theme. Sure, it makes them feel a bit "dei ex machina", but is that a huge problem? I do like the idea. Not a fan of their gameplay and models, but I like the feeling of hope they embody.

Plus, they're heroes from the past reforged into perfect warriors and sent in battle to spare the lives of mortals. They're not Space Marines: they're Wraithguards.

They lack the zealotry of Space Marines. Sure, they might call the might of Sigmar, but... I don't think they are THAT involved in the religious/zealotry some Space Marines have.

Regarding the "God-king on a throne", well, yes. There's a God. Who is also a king. Because he's living among his people. And he has a throne. Because he is a king.

But he's not a decaying corpse kept alive via the sacrifice of countless psykers whose main purpose for keeping on living s serve as a glorified lighthouse.

Regarding "bolters" it's again a matter of aestethics: crossbows are often perceived as "non-good" weapons, because our Western perception associates them with mercenaries, and paesants, as well as the henchmen of villains. Really, go watch a coupleof fantasy movies. The good guys will often have longbows or javelins, the bad guys will almost always have crossbows.

Thus, equipping "good guys" with crossbows would be a bit weird, and thus the weird-shaped crossbows and the "bolt" names. Also, it ties in with the storm theme they have.

Their riding the storm also has some drawbacks as it's not always accurate where it sends them and it can be magically influenced to go off course (even by a human seer).

This may play into another reason why Sigmar is big on making them reforgable.

They're incredibly similar in looks, methods and background.

I'm not sure the "incredibly" is warranted.

They're similar as far as shoulder pads and elite soldiers go but their methods are far more relatable than Space marines "kill em all" and their background is brave people being whisked away towards the end of their life where as marines start their lives as killing machines at very young ages.

As for disproportionate support, though not untrue, I do wonder how much the Global campaign played into that. If what is said about it affecting releases is true then the huge focus on Order and the Vanguard/city Stormcast releases may have been unintentional and just as likely a release in later years after others were focused on.

GW does have everything ready to go up to 2021(as they announced in 2016) so they could have the releases done in different orders.

Stormcast Eternals are obviously trying to repeat the success of Space Marines. Calling them "Space Marines copy-cats" is don't sawing the wood because of the trees.

Space Marines were designed because in Fantasy, the Chaos Warriors in full plate armour where the most popular trope of all the setting. So they wanted to repeat the same formula in Warhammer40k (Rogue Trader).

I don't see anybody saying that Space Marines are the same as Chaos Warriors (Heck, even Chaos Space Marines are very different from Chaos Warriors). But they share many, many themes: Hulking men imbuid with power (Space Marines from science, Chaos Warriors from dark gods), that only live for war, and they are much bigger than normal men, etc...

Stormcast Eternal is the last part of the cicle. They are obviously trying to repeat the formula of Space Marines, just like Space Marines did in the past with Chaos Warriors. But that doesn't mean they aren't their own thing.

Thats why I always find a little funny the discussions "Stormcast are just Fantasy Space Marines!" "No, they are not!"
When both parts of the argument have half of the truth. They share many tropes with Space Marines, yes, but the devil is on the details.

What I find somewhat strange and not well thought out is their relationship with Sigmar. They have a living God, many of whom have actually met him in person and yet there are still pieces in the lore and books where something happens and they speak and act as if Sigmar is some kind of half - real, unknowable person like in the old World. I can't put a finger on a concrete detail right now, but I clearly remember a piece about the knight errants or whatever they were called - they're supposed to spend a night in meditation in their cell in Sigmaron (you can't get any closer to Sigmar) and at dawn a magical, mysterious sword appears that no one knows where it came from, but some whisper it may be a gift from Sigmar... C'mon, their god is right over there shooting lightning out of his arse and there is still this mystifying involved - this IMO is unneeded.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Humans are definately not pointless - play against a solid Free Peoples player / army.

You'll find out cannons, hellblasters and gunpowder are effective as ever at killing most things.

Unfortenately it is hard if not impossible to actually get cannons. They are OOP, like half of everything non-Stormcast.
I must say the Stormcast have grown on me though. In fact, I used to dislike them, but once I saw how nice they could look with a good colour scheme I got quite excited for them. The colour scheme in question is actually a lot like AegisGrimm's (which is also really nice) just with red instead of green on the shoulder and trim.

Eh, the "mysterious" part sure (who else would gift it) but the reverence and awe from a entity beyond any of them in power and understanding is pretty much in-line. Just because they know him doesn't mean it takes away the fact he can walk amongst the stars and do things beyond their dreams.

It's like the the Grail Pilgrims who devote themselves to a Grail knight. They do everything for him all the time but just the recognition of a saint who's so above them in status and abilities can make them pass out in amazement.


@Galas,

Spot on statement. It's just the paladin-from-evil paladin concept coming full circle.

Space marines are a mix of chaos knights with warrior priest fanaticism put in a sci-fi blender while Stormcasts are that concept while put in a mythology blender and heavier mixes of warrior priests and their concept of faithful paladins with baroque armor.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/6f/56/cc6f568dd7d48eb6589519901a277423.jpg

@Baron
Yeah, reverence s perfectly acceptable and expected, but here and there they've spoken like they have no other clue for Sigmar other than he's their deity and someone (the relictors for example) have tutored them into the "Stormcast creed". They follow the creed, believing in Sigmar and speak as a modern day religious man would speak about his god - they believe that there is one, they know their creed and act according to it, but they haven't seen him, don't know his plan, desires etc. Stormcast do though and it doesn't suit them very well.

I love the direction GW are taking them. They are starting to flesh out the world around them, and world doesn't trust them. They themselves are slowly losing their humanity, unable to keep hold of what made them human once. Sigmar himself doesn't seemingly care, but some Stormcast are starting to question this.

You also have this lingering narrative in the background that hints on some suspect activity, certain older Stormcast that have lost the grip on humanity have committed warcrimes in the name of purifying chaos.

Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

I like them quite a bit. Reading Plague Garden defiantly shows how different Stormcast can be with each other and their relationship with Sigmar.

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

The similarities to marines really wasn’t a problem for me, it had more to do with them getting all the love when several factors need it a lot more, ya dig?

 Jaxler wrote:
The similarities to marines really wasn’t a problem for me, it had more to do with them getting all the love when several factors need it a lot more, ya dig?

The problem is that if they didn't give them "all the love"(they had about the same amount of love as Khorne Bloodbound and any of the fully fleshed out new releases, barring the poor Fyreslayers) then the range would likely have been DOA.

Personally, and I've said this elsewhere, I felt like there could/should have been more variation. I would have liked to see some guys wearing mail or scale armor instead of full plate (the Vanguard would have been great for this) and with the Paladins having more armor or something to make them appear more 'Avatars of the Wrath of Sigmar' in a sense.

I do think the addition of the beasts like Gryph-Hounds and Aetherwings was a good touch though.

Stormcast Eternals are not marines 100%. They are though quite similar to them with chambers (also chambers having uniqe quirks), the ones to rescue humanity/the 8 realms, geneseed problems/reforging problems (read that they would expand on that). And of course beeing pushed by GW as the main faction with more love then the others.

But they are also human heroes chosen by Sigmar close to their deaths and after living atleast a somewhat long life while marines are brainwashed from the age of 5 and the live of an adeptus astartes is the only life a marine will know.

I hope though that they make Sigmar care for his Eternals since if he starts seeing them as disposable tools he will become to similar to the Emperor and with that make the Eternals=marines more true.

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Green one wrote:
And of course beeing pushed by GW as the main faction...

This is probably one of the biggest similarities. Sure, there's underlying fluff differences, but they're big dudes in big armour that feel custom designed to appeal to nerdy teenage boys which GW plasters over anything to do with the game/universe.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional

No, they really aren't. Unless you can provide us an extensive analysis to prove your claims.

The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

Not falling to chaos isn't perfection. Hell, perfection is something they are not at all, or else they wouldn't inflict friendly fire from being scared at startled. " FOR CHAOS!" is NOT a form of nuance. Adding different viewpoints and stances on key issues like: can people that's been in contact with chaos be trusted, and those stances being a cause of friction IS nuance.

All that plus that chaos Stormcast are literally just chaos knights.

More interesting would be a Deathcast.(which would also heavily deliver a Dark Souls flavor)

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

And Grail knights. The Grail would kill any man with even an ounce of evil left in them and they're so pure their bones are immune to undeath (except for one rare circumstance). It's hard to get more goody-goody super warrior than that.

Certainly no more 2 dimensional than a Stormcast is despite both being empowered warriors with all their nobility and humanity intact.

Stormcasts actually even beat them in having more dimensions due to the threat of losing that humanity and having more pasts to draw from, like farmer or pit fighter, rather than another nobleman.

Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity? 

Those are weird takes on rescuing and giving a chance for vengeance.

I don't think it's even mentioned that he reforges them against their will?

. I would have liked to see some guys wearing mail or scale armor instead of full plate (the Vanguard would have been great for this)

Indeed, something like Storm Squires who would be elite human warriors trying to prove themselves and become reforged.

Some could be bigger than average men as Sigmar blessed them but still needs them to prove themselves and others could wield remarkable weapons of Sigmarite hidden by an aspect of Sigmar which can range from a sword driven deep within a floating mountain to a bow hidden within the mechanical body of a metal realm beast that goes between land and seas of mercury.

Oh my god, Stormcast that have lost all hope and become Hollow-Stormcasts of Nagash... that could be a little obvious but I'll buy in to them ASAP.

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

Here comes the problem with that though because it's that case with marines we have lost all focus on normal humans falling to chaos and rising to daemon princes.(there are cases of them in the lore) They make a big deal about humans falling to chaos and fighting against that but the narrative of 40k focuses on space marines falling to chaos. Also stormcast are not perfect at all they are actually quite flawed they are far more human that space marines actually and that's not counting the reforging effects, also sigmar does not reforge them against their will.(josh reynolds is writing a story with someone who says no in soul wars. He states it does not end out well for everyone) Sigmar has a big point on not interfering or pressing his will on people even on stormcast. Sigmar's problem as stated by Grungi is that he barely lowers himself to talk to the little people he expects people to rise to meet him so to speak and then he somewhat converses almost kinda like an equal of sorts.

Anyway back to my point on space marines here is a good example of my point.



On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Thank you for this. Sadly I didn't agree with how GW did their books that I haven't bought any so I didn't read them. As for Black Library books, while many people like them, the few I read I didn't like them much so haven't read any of their books for years now. So it seems I have missed out on some of the fluff and it's good to know they are becoming less Space Marine like now.

I was interested in maybe checking out Plague Garden after recommendations in this thread. It's listed as not even being released until next month.

Is t available elsewhere?

 privateer4hire wrote:
I was interested in maybe checking out Plague Garden after recommendations in this thread. It's listed as not even being released until next month.

Is t available elsewhere?

Blacklibrary and a certain internet's buttcrack we all know and love to avoid.

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

 shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

Do the Blood Pact from Gaunt's Ghosts count?

 Mangod wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

Do the Blood Pact from Gaunt's Ghosts count?

Right so where is the blood pact now? Are they still relevant? Is black library writing a host of stories on renegade chaos followers and what they get up to? Instead of imperials blasting them in the face? Or are they just writing about chaos space marines as always? I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows.

It's as josh reynolds said in his interview he started to write 40k because it's more lucrative and guess what most of the 40k stories are about?

I think it's a bad idea for a game company to openly favour one of their factions over the others. In the case of Space Marines, GW can't really change that any more, they've already taken that route. With the Stormcasts, they had the chance not to make the same mistake, but they went ahead and did the same thing again. That's annoying, and I think it drives away potential customers who happen to dislike GW's chosen poster boys. I know I would've become interested in 40k years earlier if I hadn't been led to believe there were only Marines in it.

 Cream Tea wrote:
I think it's a bad idea for a game company to openly favour one of their factions over the others. In the case of Space Marines, GW can't really change that any more, they've already taken that route. With the Stormcasts, they had the chance not to make the same mistake, but they went ahead and did the same thing again. That's annoying, and I think it drives away potential customers who happen to dislike GW's chosen poster boys. I know I would've become interested in 40k years earlier if I hadn't been led to believe there were only Marines in it.

The only way it would change if people stop buying them which they won't so GW will keep supplying it. Don't get me wrong I don't hate space marines or stormcast. I prefer stormcast narrative wise because they are far more human and the fact both stormcast and chaos followers have baggage from their mortal origins in AOS.

I much prefer mine to be Stormcast Internals.

It didnt help for me that I always thought Sigmar himself was such a lame character,. I read his time of legends trilogy and he is such a "who cares" character that he couldnt even carry his own trilogy. thats sad, he was the least interesting person in his own series. Now he is really a god and not just a ancestor style diety in the setting and he is still just as lame.

The stormcast remind me of traumatized sex dolls, all with their horrified faces.

Then the females being the EXACT same models with 2 bumps on the chest is just sickening and pandering to the lowest class.

Everything about them reads as minimal effort hoping to grab the comic book genre.

The whole AoS lore seems like it would belong in a marvel x men book better then a world that is actually suppose to work. Right now the only reason AoS world exist is because imagination.

WHFB and such was as if they created a world and thought things through, who made the food who stole it, the evil spirits of the old that many wondered if where real or fake. No real gods or anything just belief in them. Different factions of people trying to work together just long enough to beat a threat and do a land grab, Different cultures and such.

AoS lightning god shoots lightning people from the sky he remade as people for reasons even tho it would be better to remake them as better war gods but... reasons. Then star lizards shooting stars falling from the sky to make people rather then moving on to another world because the frogs are upset about what happened millions of years ago but did nothing until like a week ago. People who live in like 9 bubble worlds full of different material how they build stuff who makes the food how they travel ect, who knows it imagination land... just so much gah.

Lord Kragan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

True, but they aren't their own faction, and they aren't transformed into an unnatural being twice normal size. Their imbuement of divinity is basically just a protection that plays out as a ward save on the table top. (at least that's my understanding, I don't play the pointy eared skirt wearing pansies ).

But that aside as it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, really, not seeing that Stormcast are Ground Marines because of a few fluff differences seems to be missing the forest for the all trees. It'd be like saying Eldar aren't Space Elves because you can pick out some fluff differences, or Squats aren't Space Dwarfs, or Bretonnians aren't medieval French.

Of course they aren't EXACTLY those things, but they are in all the ways that matter.

Elite Warriors in their previous life? Check
Transformed in to unnaturally super soldiers? Check
Adorned in bulky head to toe armour? Check
Pushed by GW at every corner? Check

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional

No, they really aren't. Unless you can provide us an extensive analysis to prove your claims.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:



Elite Warriors in their previous life? Check

Except there's a ton of former civilians and assorted non-combatants in their ranks. Gardus was a hospice worker, Enyo was a scholar, Solus was a miller.

Hell, the liberators' entry in their battletome makes it painstakingly clear that they are predominantly filled with commoners that rose in their direst moment and thus could be considered heroes in sigmar's eyes. for they fought bravely in their finest hour, their capabilities be damned.

Yeah, it's pretty clear from their backgrounds that Sigmar recruits for willpower more than physical prowess. Anyone willing to go down fighting rather than running while their loved ones were butchered.

WHFB and such was as if they created a world and thought things through, who made the food who stole it, the evil spirits of the old that many wondered if where real or fake. No real gods or anything just belief in them.

Well the Old World benefited a lot from numerous rpgs for all that stuff where as AoS only has a few novels with that type of info and Hammerhal.

Certainly GW isn't going to put all that in when the "war" part of the wargame needs to come first(just as it was with the Old World)and it's only been two years of on-and-off lore focus. With how much lore is getting pumped out now though and Cubicle7 next year we will probably see a fully fleshed out setting in the near future. (And one with no edition retcons :p )

AoS lightning god shoots lightning people from the sky he remade as people for reasons even tho it would be better to remake them as better war gods but... reasons. Then star lizards shooting stars falling from the sky to make people rather then moving on to another world because the frogs are upset about what happened millions of years ago but did nothing until like a week ago. People who live in like 9 bubble worlds full of different material how they build stuff who makes the food how they travel ect, who knows it imagination land... just so much gah.

Make them into war gods when they've never done that before or are even capable of it, right..

Good to see you got over the space lizard ghosts thing but I don't understand that logic. What other worlds(and who's to say they haven't tried, the chaos books make it clear Archaon has devastated countless worlds) and why is it surprising a race made to combat chaos is focused on defeating chaos which not only ruined their past plans and world but are a clear threat to their current ones?

As for a "week ago", the fact that they are guarding secret relics such as the one that can tell Slaanesh's where abouts shows they've been active since chaos' assault on the realms.

As for the rest, reading one of the city focused novels would be a good bet since they focus on the various industries found within the 8 mortal realms. (The 9th is the chaos realm, btw)

Last part, I should hope it's "imagination land". That's kinda the very definition of Fantasy.

I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows. 

I thought the chaos sniper in the Gaunt's Ghost novel was really good. They make excellent side characters.

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

That is one of the laziest things that could happen.

OgreChubbs wrote:


Then the females being the EXACT same models with 2 bumps on the chest is just sickening and pandering to the lowest class.

What are you even talking about? Aside from sharing the aesthetic (that is, wearing heavy armor) the anatomy of females and males is distintively different. Neave has thinner legs and arms, a thinner and curvier waistline. Hell, even the warmask's details are more delicate, less rotund.

Yeah, one of the things that I noticed immediately was the curve line on the newest female stormcast (from shadespire) - she has a thinner waist and breastplate than the male stormcast I don't know if her hips are slightly larger or just seem so next to her thinner waist, but she definitely seems distinct and feminine enough

 shinros wrote:

Right so where is the blood pact now? Are they still relevant?

Yes and no. Blood Pact are, at this point, a defeated foe. The events of Gaunt's Ghosts is some 700ish years before the "current date". There is a slight uptick in the portrayal of 'Renegades and Heretics" styled rabble; Justin Hill's three Ursukar Creed short stories("Last Step Backwards", "Lost Hope", "Battle of Tyrok Fields") feature a cult leader that is considered important enough by the Black Legion that they evacuate him when he's almost slain. His novel "Cadia Stands" also features cults pretty heavily as the opposition with Traitor Astartes making brief appearances.

Is black library writing a host of stories on renegade chaos followers and what they get up to? Instead of imperials blasting them in the face? Or are they just writing about chaos space marines as always? I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows.

Because that's how Chaos works in 40k...?


The Traitor Astartes are considered demigods by the mortal rabble that they have enslaved or drawn to their banner specifically to be cannon fodder in their wars of vengeance against the Imperium they feel betrayed them.

Part of the reason I enjoyed Fantasy as much as I did was the lack of 'Space Marines'. The armies you saw were pretty diverse and you could turn up at an event or store not really knowing what you'd face, unlike 40k where you can guarantee at least 50% of your opponents will be in loyalist marks of power armour. Sure there were some that were more popular than others - Warriors of Chaos and High Elves come to mind - but it wasn't nearly to the degree SMs dominated 40k.

Of course, no good thing lasts forever, and we end up with Sigmarines. 90% of the lore focusing on them, generic and bland protagonists, boring models, receiving the vast majority of the new releases, etc. The fact they probably killed Fantasy in part to push Space Marines on the setting certainly doesn't help my disdain for them.

So yeah, I hate 'em. I think I'd hate them less if they were just part of a Not!Empire (Free Guilds or w/e) army, where they're a handful of units designed to work in tandem with the fleshy mortals.

I agree with everything Arbitrator said, plus they look ridiculous. Even the archers have the same heavy armor as their front-line guys.

That's because they're being dropped immediately into enemy territory and surrounded on all sides. The novels have them joining the melee several times because of how bad the situation is.

Also, they weren't the reason the setting changed. Blanche has concepts of them that show they were originally planned as good guy chaos knights for 8th edition. The Old World was left behind for trademarks and a easier to change setting.

Their large amount of releases is due to being a new army that was very lacking as a entry starter set faction( especially compared to the opposing Khornites force) and it's hardly 90% of the lore when chaos is so heavily focused on too.

I'd say it's more like 40% thanks to the realm gate wars, 40% chaos and 20% other which is on the rise now that the focus of Order is taking a backseat.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

That is pretty much a major storyline with Nagash right now.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

Dwarfs are, gods can be made out of whatever they want to be(usually element specific)and having his remains be a mythical metal sounds about right for a the people so attuned to it and all things under the earth.

Though with the incoming Gotrek story we might see how dead this god is...

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

He did not explode into gold when he shattered against the god beast their essence mixed together and spread across all the gold ore veins in the mortal realms. The madness the fyreslayers suffer from is most likely from the godbeast.

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

I don't want to shock you but gold for the dwarves of the warhammer universe means "something important", not just the specific metal (aside from what shinros' stated).

Ya they are tying to rebuild a god from collecting all the gold in the world the step 2:............. Step 3: a god.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Ya they are tying to rebuild a god from collecting all the gold in the world the step 2:............. Step 3: a god.

You haven't heard much of the myth of Osiris, haven't you? Plus... it's not all the gold, just the one their priests' detect the essence of Grimnir on.

I dunno, I still say my perceptions changed when I started my own skirmish warband where all my Stormcast have personalities. When I originally got the idea I went immediately from being completely indifferent about them to liking them.

Of course things are helped by the fact that I only game with a couple close friends, so the background can be rewritten how we see fit. Stormcast can be pushed farther into the background, or hell, I even toy with an idea of basing our games in the Warhammer World, and rewriting things to ignore the final act of the End Times, and have Stormcast coming down to reinforce the Empire in the 11th hour like Asguardians on the Bifrost.

Either way, I think they are just plain more palatable as a skirmish force of heroes than an entire army of Cybermen.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

I don't want to shock you but gold for the dwarves of the warhammer universe means "something important", not just the specific metal (aside from what shinros' stated).

Although the actual gold being put into people makes it look like metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Either way, I think they are just plain more palatable as a skirmish force of heroes than an entire army of Cybermen.

I'd love a Cyberman army far more to be honest. Cybermen are cool. You will be upgraded.

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

yes the the super soldiers created by the god king (slash god emperor) organized into military chambers reminiscent of crusading orders acting like warrior monks have nothing at all in common

stratigo wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

yes the the super soldiers created by the god king (slash god emperor) organized into military chambers reminiscent of crusading orders acting like warrior monks have nothing at all in common

They don't behave like warrior monks, though.

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.



EDIT: And, ultimately, this isn't a problem. Space marines are cool. Fantasy space marines COULD be cool. My problem with stormcast would be, one, AoS is a less defined setting and Stormcast need a lot of help to make them interesting. I'd imagine 2 years in, space marines would be boring too, but space marines have 30 years of characterization to fall back on. And, two, Stormcast are space marines in marketting and production too, and that sucks for everyone not interested in playing stormcast. Stormcast have a giant full roster up to the standards of a 40k army. None of the other new releases come close (though some older reboxing has managed, like seraphon), and some armies are wallowing with like 3 options. It SUCKS to enjoy something other than stormcast, and see that half the releases of AoS in any given year be stormcast.

stratigo wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.

Eh not really. They're far more human than space marines could ever hope to be. They're not kidnapped as children and indoctrinated into the imperial creed. They're taken as adults and then changed into something more. They revere Sigmar because they've met him. They walk among they're god, unlike the space marines who have never so much as seen the Emperor. They feast and drink and dick around with their ancestors. Hell, one piece of fluff that makes me laugh is that there's a Stormcast who specifically goes and hangs out with his ancestors every few generations just to freak them out and be a dick. If anything, the closest chapter you could equate them too would be the Wovles.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.

Eh not really. They're far more human than space marines could ever hope to be. They're not kidnapped as children and indoctrinated into the imperial creed. They're taken as adults and then changed into something more. They revere Sigmar because they've met him. They walk among they're god, unlike the space marines who have never so much as seen the Emperor. They feast and drink and dick around with their ancestors. Hell, one piece of fluff that makes me laugh is that there's a Stormcast who specifically goes and hangs out with his ancestors every few generations just to freak them out and be a dick. If anything, the closest chapter you could equate them too would be the Wovles.

Have you read... well I was gonna say dante, but at least half of space marine books have characters that emphasize a connection with humanity and an urge to not lose that. Ultramarines, blood angels, fuggin black dragons.

No. I have only a passing interest in 40k these days and even less in space marines in general. But what I do know is the Stormcast are sufficiently different from space marines to catch the interest far more. And besides, it's only a handful of chapters that do that. And you missed out the most important one in the Salamanders.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
No. I have only a passing interest in 40k these days and even less in space marines in general. But what I do know is the Stormcast are sufficiently different from space marines to catch the interest far more. And besides, it's only a handful of chapters that do that. And you missed out the most important one in the Salamanders.

I'm not sure the salamander books focused on that aspect of the chapter, but I might be misremembering. I'm just comparing the stories that GW tells about space marines and the stories that GW tells about Stormcast. They're, being very generous 80 percent indistinguishable. You can, for background, file off names and replace with their equivalent and they would be pretty much the exact same thing th eway GW has written them in both background and in novels.

If GW emphasized Stormcast being essentially einherjar, then they'd at least have something going for them (they'd be space wolves without the oppressive wolf wolf wolfing wolves). But they're pretty much space marines. The primary different comes down to overall feel of the setting. Space marines have a grimdark twist, stormcast don't. That's down to 40k being grimdark and AoS being far more optimistic.

They are growing on me. It's not that I ever hated them, it's just taking me a lot to say goodbye to the world that was. As the years go by and the lore is built upon I am enjoying AOS more. (Although I do think the End Times could have been avoided)

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.

Eh not really. They're far more human than space marines could ever hope to be. They're not kidnapped as children and indoctrinated into the imperial creed. They're taken as adults and then changed into something more. They revere Sigmar because they've met him. They walk among they're god, unlike the space marines who have never so much as seen the Emperor. They feast and drink and dick around with their ancestors. Hell, one piece of fluff that makes me laugh is that there's a Stormcast who specifically goes and hangs out with his ancestors every few generations just to freak them out and be a dick. If anything, the closest chapter you could equate them too would be the Wovles.

So they're Heresy Marines. Ooee that sure is better. You realise that many Space Marines are inducted as what their planet considers adults?

Indeed but as has been clarified before the Stormcast are made from strong willed individuals(doctors, farmers, bakers) rather than just the best warriors. There's more nuances to it than people give them credit for.

Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine. 

Really they're fantasy versions of Grey Knights more than just space marines. Anti-magic knights that are faithful to the end. (Only the Faithful! )

Both a play off of holy paladins in either case which is certainly fine by me.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. 

Eh, there's doubt, fear, flamboyancy and inexperience there that stands out.

To me it reads like over eager knights trying to prove themselves but are cast into a baptism by fire and pay the price when they underestimate chaos or are taken aback by such terrifying enemies that they've never faced before.

You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book. 

There's space marines with farmer backgrounds who could explain a mill stone?

I mean I get your point in that both would be groups of bad@$$ armored elites but it certainly wouldn't be identical.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. 

I actually haven't read them doing that a lot. Usually they use the transportation to get near the area they need to take and battle it out from there.

The inaccuracy of the magic and the fact it's been manipulated by human seers and other forces to affect it's destination makes less a drop pod and more a instant gateway.

And, two, Stormcast are space marines in marketting and production too, and that sucks for everyone not interested in playing stormcast.

This complaint I get but it's mostly reasonable on GW's part when you step back and look at it:

-Starter set Stormcast and a bare bones army that needs fleshing out.
-months of fleshing out.
-extremis chamber for a cavalry option.
-pretty much no more releases all through 2016 except three heroes and one of those is a Warhammer World exclusive.
-Vanguard force which mixes lighter armored Stormcast with awesome animal models.
-Very much needed battletome update with cheaper Starter set to go along with it for both Stormcast and Khorne players.
-Blight war and 3 Free city boxes with Stormcast as allies.

Of those I'd say the Blight war was the only unneeded thing that likely would've been better for Sylvaneth.

You could say Vanguard too but with the Stormcast focus already in place for this year and how the global event has Order spreading out and in need of more outriders I'd say they're justified.

Now that I am painting some Stormcasts from Shadspire, and not painting them pure gold and painting skin on them so they have less armour, I am starting to like the minis now at least.

So now I have to see if I can use them as non Stormcasts so I can use them with my non evil chaos army I want to build.

If not maybe it's time to finally buy the Stormcast battletomb. Here is hoping they flesh out story. Never wanted to take the chance on it just in case they didn't.

Davor

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Most people i've seen get the new battletome and were iffy on Stormcasts came right around to them now that they've been properly fleshed out.

I like the idea of a non evil chaos army. Is it completely good or more chaotic good?

Stormcast battletomb.

Someone submit that idea to GW if they ever do undead Stormcasts.

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.

Eh not really. They're far more human than space marines could ever hope to be. They're not kidnapped as children and indoctrinated into the imperial creed. They're taken as adults and then changed into something more. They revere Sigmar because they've met him. They walk among they're god, unlike the space marines who have never so much as seen the Emperor. They feast and drink and dick around with their ancestors. Hell, one piece of fluff that makes me laugh is that there's a Stormcast who specifically goes and hangs out with his ancestors every few generations just to freak them out and be a dick. If anything, the closest chapter you could equate them too would be the Wovles.

So they're Heresy Marines. Ooee that sure is better. You realise that many Space Marines are inducted as what their planet considers adults?

Don't know. Don't care about the heresy, by far the most boring part of 40k. But what the planets consider adults is irrelevant. It's a long standing piece of fluff that they are taken as pre-teens as once they've hit puberty the transformation process almost always fails after that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Ummmm... dude the hallowed knights are so space marine they could paint their armor black and white and you'd suddenly be unable to tell the difference between them and black templars. Of the stormcast, the hallowed knights are the MOST space marine.

In the novels, stormcast operate exactly the same as space marines. They go through the same moral quandaries ("Oh woe is I how doth I relate to mortals now that I have ascended"). They are, as they have been characterized relentlessly, rather religiously minded, isolated from humans in their internal brotherhoods, and the stories could be beat for beat bolter porn. You could literally write plague garden in 40k switching stormcast for space marines and it would read as the entirely same book.

They even fight like space marines, ascended unexpected from on high with lightning drop in assaults directed to cause maximum damage where the enemy is most vulnerable/the need is greatest. There's not much difference between the iconic drop pod assault and riding the lightning.

Eh not really. They're far more human than space marines could ever hope to be. They're not kidnapped as children and indoctrinated into the imperial creed. They're taken as adults and then changed into something more. They revere Sigmar because they've met him. They walk among they're god, unlike the space marines who have never so much as seen the Emperor. They feast and drink and dick around with their ancestors. Hell, one piece of fluff that makes me laugh is that there's a Stormcast who specifically goes and hangs out with his ancestors every few generations just to freak them out and be a dick. If anything, the closest chapter you could equate them too would be the Wovles.

So they're Heresy Marines. Ooee that sure is better. You realise that many Space Marines are inducted as what their planet considers adults?

Don't know. Don't care about the heresy, by far the most boring part of 40k. But what the planets consider adults is irrelevant. It's a long standing piece of fluff that they are taken as pre-teens as once they've hit puberty the transformation process almost always fails after that.

Yet it's incredibly like Sigmar. I wasn't aware that around 15 was considered pre teen nowadays.

Again no. As they're taken as adults, usually after spending most of their mortal lives fighting against chaos. And unless the fluff has changed (which it could well have done) 15 was still too old for space marines, as I believe it usually had to be around the 11-12 age.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Again no. As they're taken as adults, usually after spending most of their mortal lives fighting against chaos. And unless the fluff has changed (which it could well have done) 15 was still too old for space marines, as I believe it usually had to be around the 11-12 age.

Or younger, but as with all 40k lore there are inconsistencies. Space wolves for instance have been known to recruit adult males......somehow

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Again no. As they're taken as adults, usually after spending most of their mortal lives fighting against chaos. And unless the fluff has changed (which it could well have done) 15 was still too old for space marines, as I believe it usually had to be around the 11-12 age.

The God---- leads his armies to take back the ----- from the forces of Darkness. At the fore are the -----. Fill in the blanks and you get 40k or Stormcasts. That fluff is definitely wrong as you can definitely get Marines in their teens. Even without that the difference between fighting Chaos specifically and just fighting to survive are so narrow in AoS's context it doesn't do anything to differentiate it from Marines.

You fill in those blanks and you can pick and choose virtually any generic fantasy or sci fi story ever written. In that case the fluff has changed as teens was definitely too old an edition or two ago. Probably more pc to make them a bit older, but who knows.

I'll disagree, I think it differentiates them enough to actually have a force that is pro-active rather than reactive. It's one of my biggest complaints about old fantasy and 40k that the "good guys" always sat on their asses and waited to be invaded. At least with AoS and the Stormcasts, they're for once actively taking the fight to the enemy.

Not really. It's very 40k/Stormcast.

Pro active like the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard and Fantasy definitely had pro active good guys. Stormcast aren't special in that regard beyond the stupidity of their deployment method seeing as they have to walk back or die.

Really now? Those blanks are pretty much a standard template of "Chosen one" and "Darklord" stories the world over. What are you talking about? They return the same way they were sent.

The guard and space marines are virtually never pro-active. They're always responding to a threat, never going out on their own initiative to win. In fact the only two times I can think they did was the great crusade and strangely enough the new crusade under Guilliman who's name escapes me right now.

Fantasy was even worse. The only time the "good guys" did something under their own initiative was when the High Elves under Eltharion went and invaded Naggaroth. And then that was retconned just to rub it in.

God King Gwyn lead his armies of Silver knights to take back his kingdom forces of darkness. (the God- part is literally the only obstacle there and certainly not insurmountable)

Also not really stupidity when they have no other choice. Any other gateway to Sigmar's realm is a threat for a breach by the dark gods. That's the whole point of the Stormcast, a way for Sigmar to extend his reach without opening himself for invasion.

Edit: the Empire did raid the Norscans under Sigmar's reign and Bretonnians crusade against evil at the behest of the Lady. So pretty much only when a god is in charge do mortals start getting things done.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Really now? Those blanks are pretty much a standard template of "Chosen one" and "Darklord" stories the world over. What are you talking about? They return the same way they were sent.

The guard and space marines are virtually never pro-active. They're always responding to a threat, never going out on their own initiative to win. In fact the only two times I can think they did was the great crusade and strangely enough the new crusade under Guilliman who's name escapes me right now.

Fantasy was even worse. The only time the "good guys" did something under their own initiative was when the High Elves under Eltharion went and invaded Naggaroth. And then that was retconned just to rub it in.

Not to that specific level. You're talking a generic theme I'm talking changing Davids name to Peter.

They constantly go and fight to retake planets and such. Saying they never go out alone is like saying that Chaos never does anything outside Black Crusades.

Again that's only big things. Dwarves fought over Karak Eight Peaks and to retake their Undgrin constantly. Bretonnia had many crusades and I'm pretty sure High Elves had an order of warriors who specifically looked for evil enemies.

I'm not going specific, just pulling out a couple of examples off the top of my head.

You're talking about going to retake planets and that's my point. That's reactionary. Pro-active would be going out and invading new territory, kicking traitors off their own worlds and taking them for themselves. Dwarves is again the same thing, they only fight back when invaded or to take back lost ground. They don't go out and seek to kick the orcs and goblins out of their territory and take it for themselves.

I believe you're thinking of the Phoenix Guard who had the ability to see the future. They knew when they were going to die and against what so they had a relative immunity about going up against champions or lords of other races.

You realise the Galaxy is finite? They can't keep expanding forever. Taking back territory lost to Warp Storms etc is proactive otherwise literally everything done by Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, Necrons, Humanity and Chaos Marines is just reacting.

That's a bit silly. That means that all Stormcast and every single faction not Chaos is just endlessly reacting because they're retaking things from Chaos.....

Of course they can. If the Emperor had succeeded in the Great Crusade, do you think he would have stopped at the galaxy and not kept pushing further out?

And that's the point, they are. That's what makes the Stormcast interesting too me. They are sent into the heart of chaos infested lands and push them back and out. They go too chaos fortresses and siege them. The forces of order are the besiegers for a change. And we're starting to see it in other races too. When Alarielle was reborn the Sylvaneth finally went on the offensive instead of constantly being hounded. It's refreshing to read and see chaos be on the opposite end for a change.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Of course they can. If the Emperor had succeeded in the Great Crusade, do you think he would have stopped at the galaxy and not kept pushing further out?

And that's the point, they are. That's what makes the Stormcast interesting too me. They are sent into the heart of chaos infested lands and push them back and out. They go too chaos fortresses and siege them. The forces of order are the besiegers for a change. And we're starting to see it in other races too. When Alarielle was reborn the Sylvaneth finally went on the offensive instead of constantly being hounded. It's refreshing to read and see chaos be on the opposite end for a change.

This is one thing I like about AOS everyone is doing stuff like that. Vampire counts suffered from this in fantasy all they did is largely make mean faces at the empire.They tried to make vampire counts appear to be a threat to the empire but all they were in reality is like a knife in the side, chaos is the main bad guy that trashes everyone. While in AOS next's year narrative arc is death kicking everyone's teeth in. According to Reynolds it's not going to be a good time for order and chaos.

Jesus finally. It's about time Nagash got his bony ass off that throne. Soulblight and Deathrattle tomes please.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Of course they can. If the Emperor had succeeded in the Great Crusade, do you think he would have stopped at the galaxy and not kept pushing further out?

And that's the point, they are. That's what makes the Stormcast interesting too me. They are sent into the heart of chaos infested lands and push them back and out. They go too chaos fortresses and siege them. The forces of order are the besiegers for a change. And we're starting to see it in other races too. When Alarielle was reborn the Sylvaneth finally went on the offensive instead of constantly being hounded. It's refreshing to read and see chaos be on the opposite end for a change.

Yes. Because he can't go any further because there's no navigation.

You just said that kind of thing was reactive. There's things like the Great Crusade, Scouring, Most Black Crusades, Indomitus Crusade and most things done in Fantasy against Chaos. Chaos being attacked isn't new and the only reason you think that it would be is if you just want an excuse to like Stormcasts.

I hate them, they lack flavor and are too good, like they have no flaws which makes them boring. They are the vanilla ice cream of armies. And are pretty weak once you pop their hero's.

Tzeench army, caster on a vortx, 36inch bolt of tzeench from the back lines. Enjoy D6 mortal wounds to your hero unit buffiny stuff.

You don't know that. No one has any idea what tech the emperor had or how he may have chosen to expand the webway. But I'd make a strong bet that he wouldn't have chosen just to stop because things got a bit hard to see.

I listed most of those earlier, specifically siting the great crusade and Indomitus (admittedly I forgot the name). But "most things done in fantasy" means nothing unless you can pull out a few examples (like the retconned High Elf assault on Naggaroth led by Eltharion).

Lastly I don't need an excuse to like Stormcast. I like them because I do and if you're trying to bait, you shouldn't be so obvious about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I hate them, they lack flavor and are too good, like they have no flaws which makes them boring. They are the vanilla ice cream of armies. And are pretty weak once you pop their hero's.

Tzeench army, caster on a vortx, 36inch bolt of tzeench from the back lines. Enjoy D6 mortal wounds to your hero unit buffiny stuff.

If you think they have no flaws, you need to try reading their fluff and this thread. It's all already been listed out.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
You don't know that. No one has any idea what tech the emperor had or how he may have chosen to expand the webway. But I'd make a strong bet that he wouldn't have chosen just to stop because things got a bit hard to see.

I listed most of those earlier, specifically siting the great crusade and Indomitus (admittedly I forgot the name). But "most things done in fantasy" means nothing unless you can pull out a few examples (like the retconned High Elf assault on Naggaroth led by Eltharion).

Lastly I don't need an excuse to like Stormcast. I like them because I do and if you're trying to bait, you shouldn't be so obvious about it.

Yes we do. We know that Humanity depended on the Astronomicons light for all its FTL travel which is why the Emperor attempted to access the Webway. Both of those things are completely limited to our Galaxy. Technically a little less than it actually.

Yes and you've been flip flopping constantly. There's the Slann's actions which were anti Chaos in general, Thorgrim aiding the northern Dwarfs, the constant fight of Kislev against the Wastes, the Dwarf expedition into the Chaos Wastes, the general attempts to purge Beastmen and such.

At the time of the crusade yes. But as I said, we have no idea what tech the Emperor had or planned to use if the crusade had succeeded. I find it hard to believe he would have sat on his laurels with legions of space marines kicking their feet with nothing to do.

Flip flopping? I've been citing examples, you're making sweeping statements.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
At the time of the crusade yes. But as I said, we have no idea what tech the Emperor had or planned to use if the crusade had succeeded. I find it hard to believe he would have sat on his laurels with legions of space marines kicking their feet with nothing to do.

Flip flopping? I've been citing examples, you're making sweeping statements.

His plan was to access the Eldar Webway which was limited to our Galaxy. The Space Marines probably would have gone like Thunder Warriors.

You said you disliked the Imperium and Fantasy because they were reactive and never took the fight to Chaos. They only tried reclaiming or defending their territory.
You also said you like Stormcast because they're proactive and actively assault Chaos. To reclaim lost territory. You also said a similar thing about Alarielle and Sylvaneth.

Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

I really disliked the Stormcast when AoS first came out. I played with my old empire as Freeguild for a few months before dropping out of AoS entirely, and I felt that the sigmarines really stole any thunder that normal humans in the setting had and that they were just faceless space marines with swords.

Just recently I've been looking back into AoS and I got the starter set on black friday for a ridiculously low price and honestly I feel like they're way more fleshed out now. I'm still not a huge fan of the liberators and other older models, but the new stuff and especially the helmetless models really tickle my fancy.

I feel like they went from characterless space marines to more humanized hollows from dark souls and i'm totally fine with that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

Yes we do. We know for a fact the Emperors long term plan was to replace Warp Drives with the Eldar Webway. We know for a fact that the Webway and Astronomicon don't allow for travel outside our Galaxy. There's nothing supporting your idea that the Emperor would have gone further.

I'm not. 40k has constant pushes to retake territory and they in no way just wait to be invaded. The only way to think that is if you just ignore lots of the lore. The same applies for Fantasy. There are examples of factions going to recover things and retake things all over the place.

So we come to the key difference being Stormcast supposedly taking territory which has always been Chaos territory. Which you haven't given any source for and was near literally impossible in Fantasy and does happen in 40k. In the end Stormcast aren't that different.

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

Yes we do. We know for a fact the Emperors long term plan was to replace Warp Drives with the Eldar Webway. We know for a fact that the Webway and Astronomicon don't allow for travel outside our Galaxy. There's nothing supporting your idea that the Emperor would have gone further.

I'm not. 40k has constant pushes to retake territory and they in no way just wait to be invaded. The only way to think that is if you just ignore lots of the lore. The same applies for Fantasy. There are examples of factions going to recover things and retake things all over the place.

So we come to the key difference being Stormcast supposedly taking territory which has always been Chaos territory. Which you haven't given any source for and was near literally impossible in Fantasy and does happen in 40k. In the end Stormcast aren't that different.

So guys... how about you two bring this already to the relm of PMs? I'm sure there's a great debate to be had there but ultimately you two are going on a big ass tangent about your interpretations of the lore.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Again no. As they're taken as adults, usually after spending most of their mortal lives fighting against chaos. And unless the fluff has changed (which it could well have done) 15 was still too old for space marines, as I believe it usually had to be around the 11-12 age.

In the Heresy they made older people into Space Marine. Like most of the companions of Leman Russ (and many other Primarchs) except really old men like Kor Phaeron. And I am pretty sure that the companions of Russ weren't all preteen or early teen boys. That would put a rather disturbing spin on the character.

The fluff of the Space Marine transformation actually isn't well established in 40k background at all. I don't think it has been detailed at all since Rogue Trader. Recruiting preteens is also inconsistent with the constant mentions that Space Marines recruit only the strongest warriors of their societies. Preteens make horrible warriors...

But on topic, while Space Marines and Stormcast may have differences in the details, their main themes, aesthetics and story elements are incredibly similar. As some have mentioned, you could basically take an AoS novel, change some of the names and get a Space Marine novel. Personally I really like Space Marines, and I have also come to like Stormcast, but I do hope GW will do more in the future to differentiate them from Space Marines.

pm713 wrote:
You realise the Galaxy is finite?

I know a few people who would like to have a word about that with you.

Baron Klatz wrote:

There's space marines with farmer backgrounds who could explain a mill stone?

I don't have a farmer background and I could explain a mill stone. Mill stones aren't exactly complicated pieces of technology you see...

Now I kinda want an agricultural-themed Space Marine force. I think I will name them 'The Emperor's Hoes' and they will crusade righteously to improve agricultural productivity and weed out undesirable elements. Their battle cry will be 'It's almost harvesting season!' and they will ride in agriculture themed vehicles.

Considering how much space marines sell... I think many of us can agree that stormcast being the high fantasy version of space marines is intentional and I also think that is as designed and deviating from that is not something I'd forsee in the future.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

I know a few people who would like to have a word about that with you.

Have I made a scientific mistake there?