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So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 20:39:33


Post by: Infantryman


I haven't seen much discussion on Tau here.

I used to play against a Tau army semi-regularly in 3e/4e - with Guard, they were kind of a tough army. They could out-range me with almost every unit, and their weapons seemed perfectly devised to easily wound and completely ignore my armor (infantry AND vehicle, for the most part).

I spotted what looks like new Tau plastics at the FLGS - at least, the helmet looks different - and found myself wondering how they've held up in 8th. Good? Bad?

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 20:41:47


Post by: Marmatag


Tau had a competitive list which featured Commanders - lots of commanders - and drones, with some support units behind them. Some people used crisis suits, some people used forgeworld Y'vharna, etc.

But as the codexes that don't suck - Imperial Guard, Eldar - have come out, you see Tau less and less on the table.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 20:53:05


Post by: Xenomancers


For an index army they are strong. Just don't have a lot of variety. They have a lot of rules that make you scratch your head too. Like...The comanders reroll to hits aura only works for 1 turn - and everyone has to stay still to use it. The marker light system is pretty much worthless unless you hit with 5 marker lights (then it's pretty amazing.) Units have to chose between having more guns or more upgrades (uhh everyone just takes as many guns as they can).

the former best units in the army (in the game) are now the worst. Riptides are like 150 points overpriced. Storm surge pretty bad too. I feel like they are going to be amazing with a codex.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:13:42


Post by: Martel732


And yet, riptides are still too cheap. If i never see another, it will be too soon.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:16:38


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
And yet, riptides are still too cheap. If i never see another, it will be too soon.

Well without busted MC rules a properly pointed riptide wouldn't be so bad. The worst part about them was they were beast mode units for CC. I can't tell you how many victories mine had against thunderwolves. LOL. Now that non dedicated CC monsters suck without a weapon - im sure a riptide will also.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:24:16


Post by: Martel732


I'd prefer still to never see one ever again. Im sure i wont get my wish.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:25:33


Post by: Kap'n Krump


Martel732 wrote:
And yet, riptides are still too cheap. If i never see another, it will be too soon.


Oh, I was pretty salty about riptides in 6h and 7th, but even I have to admit they have been nerfed and priced into nigh-uselessness.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:28:35


Post by: Martel732


GW just ruined that model for me.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:34:23


Post by: Xenomancers


I totally can understand that. My riptides hurt a lot of people. They almost don't deserve to be good again.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:42:27


Post by: pismakron


All the factions that has not received a codex are struggling when faced with codex opposition. This is true of Tau also.

Tau has been doing okay in tournaments because of the Commander build, but the rest of their index is pretty weak. If you take a 7th edition list to a game, you will get stomped. Very. Hard.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 21:53:56


Post by: BoomWolf


Well , not all.
Ynnari (before this FAQ) and GSC were doing pretty well, given that their "codex" rules were practically already in the index.


But unfortunatly, our tau are in a special place of being WAY deep down the power curve. most of our index is outright uplayable.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:34:35


Post by: Primark G


 Xenomancers wrote:
For an index army they are strong. Just don't have a lot of variety. They have a lot of rules that make you scratch your head too. Like...The comanders reroll to hits aura only works for 1 turn - and everyone has to stay still to use it. The marker light system is pretty much worthless unless you hit with 5 marker lights (then it's pretty amazing.) Units have to chose between having more guns or more upgrades (uhh everyone just takes as many guns as they can).

the former best units in the army (in the game) are now the worst. Riptides are like 150 points overpriced. Storm surge pretty bad too. I feel like they are going to be amazing with a codex.


They needed a hard nerf after 7th edition.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:40:22


Post by: Galas


Everything that was good in 7th edition was over-nerfed. Some things that were useless before like Vespids or Stealth Suits are now actually good, usable and balance.

The "competitive" list is Commander Spam+Drones and other units like the OP FW armour and crisis suits in small numbers.

Broadsides are like 270ppm equiped. They are very overpriced. But personally I have no problems with my Broadsides (I have 3. All the new model version) costing 200-280points each. But if they are gonna cost that, they should have the firepower to compensate.
They don't have that.
The same goes for Crisis Suits. I have no problems with them being 50ppm-80ppm based in equipement. They just need to be worth it.
Stealth Suits are totally worth it for 30ppm or 41ppm with special weapons.

Personally I prefer to pay more points for my units (That way is cheaper money-wise to have an army), but for them to be worth the points they cost.

So I don't think Riptide should be made cheaper. Just make it be worth what they cost.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:52:33


Post by: Brutallica


Well Tau are pretty freaking strong due to some units.

They complain about their riptides and broadsides not being 3+ bs, too expensive etc etc.. and not being able to add atleast 2x bs increse on their markerlights

But reality is, ALL Tau players ive ever met mainly pick their strongest options at all times, i actually know a single Tau player who sometimes tries to deviate from the classic waac mindset (and i applaud him for that, truely), but its hard for him.

So by all means GW, nerf them even further when their codex arrives. Make EVERYTHING equally "worthless". Keep riptide where it is, so we know who plays for fun and cool units, and who plays only for the win.

But i know GW will come to their aid, Tau have allways been their lovechild. So regardless of my saltyness, they will smile ear to ear when the codex arrives. Im sure of it. (well, some will probably still be sad about not being 2+ BS and markerlight not incresing overwatch BS etc.)









So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:53:43


Post by: BoomWolf


OP FW armour?
Do enlighten me. because our FW choices, from what I see, are laughable.

Broadsides costing 165 at the bare minimum is criminal, these things cost more than a predator with twinlas and heavy bolters, someone tell me how the two are remotely comparable.


I'll give you a quick count of what our current army looks like.

Commander and gun drones are pretty darn good.
Fire warriors, breachers, vespid, stealth suits, sunshark, coldstar, flamer crisis and weapon pathfinders are generally playable.
Everything else, is not. just not. broadsides, ghostkeels, riptide, any vehicle, markerlights in general-its all unplayable.


You know why us tau players are mostly WAAC and pick the strongest option at all times?
We got one option. everything else is so bad that taking it is shooting yourself in the leg.
When our hammerhead costs like a predator and does a third as much-and even the predator is considered unimpressive, you expect us to take a hammerhead?
When our broadside costs like a dreadnaut, shooting almost like a dreadnaut, but can't fight nearly as well nor can it take nearly as much firepower-why bother?
When a riptide costs close to an IK, yet cant even come close to it in shooting Or durability, let alone the melee-why bother?

Some goes for our entire army list.
Its either a rough gem that works by sheer number crunching efficiency-or it just can't compare to what other armies throw at us.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:54:50


Post by: Galas


 Brutallica wrote:

So by all means GW, nerf them even further when their codex arrives. Make EVERYTHING equally "worthless". Keep riptide where it is, so we know who plays for fun and cool units, and who plays only for the win.


But only after GW erase Space Wolves as a stand-alone Codex and roll them back in Codex: Space Marines, with 0 special rules over other Space Marines. Then we know who plays them for aesthetics, and who plays only for the win


 BoomWolf wrote:
OP FW armour?
Do enlighten me. because our FW choices, from what I see, are laughable.

Broadsides costing 165 at the bare minimum is criminal, these things cost more than a predator with twinlas and heavy bolters, someone tell me how the two are remotely comparable.


I'll give you a quick count of what our current army looks like.

Commander and gun drones are pretty darn good.
Fire warriors, breachers, vespid, stealth suits, sunshark, coldstar, flamer crisis and weapon pathfinders are generally playable.
Everything else, is not. just not. broadsides, ghostkeels, riptide, any vehicle, markerlights in general-its all unplayable.


The Y'vharna. But I'll be honest I don't have that model and I have 0 FW models for my Tau. But reading his rules and what people have said, it seems pretty dam strong at a good price.
And I agree, Broadsides are very overpriced. But I have no problems with them costing that many points if they have good rules.
You know, I just don't want to have the Tyranid Warrior Sindrom where 3 models for 40€ are 20-30 points each.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:56:25


Post by: pismakron


What about kroot? Are they totally useless?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 22:57:35


Post by: Galas


pismakron wrote:
What about kroot? Are they totally useless?


The normal Kroots aren't very good. The Kroot Hounds are very usefull and good. Krootoxs... I don't have any, but they don't appear to be worth their points.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:04:13


Post by: Brutallica


 Galas wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:

So by all means GW, nerf them even further when their codex arrives. Make EVERYTHING equally "worthless". Keep riptide where it is, so we know who plays for fun and cool units, and who plays only for the win.


But only after GW erase Space Wolves as a stand-alone Codex and roll them back in Codex: Space Marines, with 0 special rules over other Space Marines. Then we know who plays them for aesthetics, and who plays only for the win

Yeah, because space wolves are winning crazy right now


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:09:18


Post by: Galas


I remember Space Wolves and their Barkstar being pretty damm awfull in 7th edition. Wulfen and Thunder Wolf Cavalry wasn't a sweet jesus child.

So by the logic that Tau 7th were OP so they should be made useless, Space Wolves should too. That was you premise.

But to be honest I just want to be able to play my movile-short range shooting-with auxiliares Tau force and not be called stupid because "Tanks?! Why you bring tanks instead of MOAR SUITS?!"


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:11:07


Post by: BoomWolf


 Galas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
OP FW armour?
Do enlighten me. because our FW choices, from what I see, are laughable.

Broadsides costing 165 at the bare minimum is criminal, these things cost more than a predator with twinlas and heavy bolters, someone tell me how the two are remotely comparable.


I'll give you a quick count of what our current army looks like.

Commander and gun drones are pretty darn good.
Fire warriors, breachers, vespid, stealth suits, sunshark, coldstar, flamer crisis and weapon pathfinders are generally playable.
Everything else, is not. just not. broadsides, ghostkeels, riptide, any vehicle, markerlights in general-its all unplayable.


The Y'vharna. But I'll be honest I don't have that model and I have 0 FW models for my Tau. But reading his rules and what people have said, it seems pretty dam strong at a good price.
And I agree, Broadsides are very overpriced. But I have no problems with them costing that many points if they have good rules.
You know, I just don't want to have the Tyranid Warrior Sindrom where 3 models for 40€ are 20-30 points each.


The Y'vharna...
That thing only looks so good because everything else pales in comparison. the Y'vharna butchers the riptide. but that's because the riptide is SO BAD.
Its still not a match to an IK, who are not really more expensive at that point.

I have FW models.
Got myself 4 tetras, who are unplayable even if the costed half of what they do.
Got R'alai, who is playable, but a regular commander would be better.
Got remoras, who were never more than janky fun, but now that we need to choose between a remora or TEN gun drones? easy choice for the swarm.

The FW hammerheads are so expensive its not even funny, and the cudda might look amazing, but it will bleed your points dry instantly with how extraorbit the point costs are.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:23:01


Post by: fe40k


Others have answered the threads question; Tau are... they have a few good models (Commanders, Drones), but the rest is overpriced and underpowered.

I'm not surprised at the amount of salt I'm seeing for previous editions - but I am surprised that people are unable to separate their emotions from their thoughts on balance.

"This unit was too strong in one edition, it should never be good again!"

Way to screw over everyone who plays that army, or happens to even like the model - you spout these kinds of words, but only as long as you aren't talking about your army...


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:26:53


Post by: Brutallica


 Galas wrote:
I remember Space Wolves and their Barkstar being pretty damm awfull in 7th edition. Wulfen and Thunder Wolf Cavalry wasn't a sweet jesus child.

So by the logic that Tau 7th were OP so they should be made useless, Space Wolves should too. That was you premise.

But to be honest I just want to be able to play my movile-short range shooting-with auxiliares Tau force and not be called stupid because "Tanks?! Why you bring tanks instead of MOAR SUITS?!"



BTW im not a tournament player, im just an average joe weekend TT gamer.

And yeah, Wulfen and Thunderwolf was disgusting in 7th, allthough not tournament winnng, Tau still kicked its ass back then.

Im sorry, but its abit fun to see almost all tau players who had a riptide wing and now its collecting dust. And ive seen Riptides and tau tanks work in 8th (ofc not guaranteed, not over the top victories, but none the less) and ive seen people concede to it. Maybe im just unlucky with my Tau opponents through time since 5th, and damn, you guys only go for the sure statistical fight. Sorry if im painting you with a broad brush here, but its my experince with Tau players never ever take a chance or go with a different style. Only what wins games. Is it a Tau thing or just an unlucky stigma?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:43:20


Post by: Galas


I don't know what to say. All the tournament players that I have seen where always playing to win.

The perception that all Tau, Space Marine, Necrons in their age or Eldar players play just with OP builds to always win is both deserved and undeserved. Not everybody play like that. But at the same time many people do. Why? Because people don't like to lose, and people don't like to take units that they know they are useless.

Whats the difference between Ork/Tyranid players and Tau players? That Tau had good options.
90% of the Tyranid players I saw playin in 7th where playing Flyrant spam. Why? Because it was the only viable build. And they aren't WAAC or something like that. But people normally gravitate towards things that work. So if a faction has more things that work, more people playing that faction is gonna use those options.

Normally when an army just sucks, people shelve it. Nobody here is a masochist, your love for your army can only give you so much before you stop playing it because it is useless.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:47:21


Post by: Vankraken


fe40k wrote:
Others have answered the threads question; Tau are... they have a few good models (Commanders, Drones), but the rest is overpriced and underpowered.

I'm not surprised at the amount of salt I'm seeing for previous editions - but I am surprised that people are unable to separate their emotions from their thoughts on balance.

"This unit was too strong in one edition, it should never be good again!"

Way to screw over everyone who plays that army, or happens to even like the model - you spout these kinds of words, but only as long as you aren't talking about your army...


Well said. I have an irrational hatred for all things craftworld and ynnari but I do not wish for Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, and Scatter Bikes to be nerfed into useless as its unfun for those who enjoy those models. Same thing for Riptide spam as I feel its horribly unfluffy (this whole giant mech direct GW is taking Tau is rather unfortunate but thats another topic) and Riptides of 7th did everything too well without enough proper weaknesses for the points cost. While i look down on Riptide spam lists as being unoriginal and a bit WAAC but the riptide should always have a valid spot in an Tau army just as much as Vespids, Kroot, Devilfish, Sniper Drones, and those ugly codex Flyers should be viable for Tau. Healthy game balance is good for everyone and that means the extremes of OP and UP units/wargear/rules/etc need to be reduced as much as possible without stepping on diversity and function (something GW has been and continues to be horribly bad at).


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/16 23:57:24


Post by: Martel732


Until tau suffer gk-level pennance, i will be firmly anti-tau.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 00:55:38


Post by: GI_Redshirt


Index Tau currently is in a very similar spot to that of Tyranids in 7th, we're a mono build army in competitive play. Nids back in 7th could potentially compete with flyrant spam. The rest of their codex was hot garbage, but spamming flyrants gave them the ability to do fairly well in tournaments. Tau currently have one good build, and that is spamming Commanders and Gun Drones. Maybe throw in a Y'vahra to mix things up a bit. Outside of that, no, Tau cannot really compete.

If you're playing friendly games or just playing outside of tournaments, you can do fine. I'm having a ton of fun in 8th running mid-range Tau lists consisting of Breachers in Devilfish, Stealth Suits, and Ghostkeels. I'm not gonna win any tournaments with those kinda lists, but I do alright. I absolutely miss my old battlesuit heavy lists and Farsight Enclave lists from back in 6th and 7th (battlesuits are the reason I got into Tau in the first place), but it is fun to try out new styles of lists and hopefully Chapter Approved and our Codex can fix up our issues so we can be an all around good army again.

If you are looking to play more casually and just have fun with friends and such, Tau are fine. Gonna be a bit underpowered overall and you'll find that certain options just aren't worth taking right now (Sky Ray and Riptides come to mind), but you can certainly have fun with them if you enjoy them. If you're looking to play competitively and win tournaments, well, unless you have about 7 Commanders and a hundred Gun Drones laying around and want to play nothing but them all the time, you're gonna be outta luck until the Codex comes out.

Also, just as a friendly note, dakka generally isn't the best place to discuss anything Tau. You'd be better off using something like Advanced Tau Tactica if you wanted a more balanced and helpful discussing with less complaining and -posting.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 01:01:12


Post by: Gamgee


 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Index Tau currently is in a very similar spot to that of Tyranids in 7th, we're a mono build army in competitive play. Nids back in 7th could potentially compete with flyrant spam. The rest of their codex was hot garbage, but spamming flyrants gave them the ability to do fairly well in tournaments. Tau currently have one good build, and that is spamming Commanders and Gun Drones. Maybe throw in a Y'vahra to mix things up a bit. Outside of that, no, Tau cannot really compete.

If you're playing friendly games or just playing outside of tournaments, you can do fine. I'm having a ton of fun in 8th running mid-range Tau lists consisting of Breachers in Devilfish, Stealth Suits, and Ghostkeels. I'm not gonna win any tournaments with those kinda lists, but I do alright. I absolutely miss my old battlesuit heavy lists and Farsight Enclave lists from back in 6th and 7th (battlesuits are the reason I got into Tau in the first place), but it is fun to try out new styles of lists and hopefully Chapter Approved and our Codex can fix up our issues so we can be an all around good army again.

If you are looking to play more casually and just have fun with friends and such, Tau are fine. Gonna be a bit underpowered overall and you'll find that certain options just aren't worth taking right now (Sky Ray and Riptides come to mind), but you can certainly have fun with them if you enjoy them. If you're looking to play competitively and win tournaments, well, unless you have about 7 Commanders and a hundred Gun Drones laying around and want to play nothing but them all the time, you're gonna be outta luck until the Codex comes out.

Also, just as a friendly note, dakka generally isn't the best place to discuss anything Tau. You'd be better off using something like Advanced Tau Tactica if you wanted a more balanced and helpful discussing with less complaining and -posting.

Quoted for truth. Tau need to stick togeather. No fairness outside of Tau communities.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 01:02:53


Post by: Galas


I think I should visit Advanced Tau Tactica more...


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 01:13:07


Post by: Xenomancers


Broadsides aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They are a little bit overpriced - probably could drop 30 points base. But when you have marker light support and or twinlinked from a commander. They just pick up models without much effort - killing tanks and infantry alike. Fire warriors are actually really good too.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 03:16:40


Post by: Gamgee


 Xenomancers wrote:
Broadsides aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They are a little bit overpriced - probably could drop 30 points base. But when you have marker light support and or twinlinked from a commander. They just pick up models without much effort - killing tanks and infantry alike. Fire warriors are actually really good too.

No one is claiming Tau can't kill. It's the high points needed to do it. Our army is so bad because of its ridiculous costs and a few bad units with rules. Mostly the price job on units is completely killing our viability. The mathhammer has been done and redone like dozens of times showing this. From the index perspective they aren't the worst, but from a wider game perspective they are terrible for the points like most of the dex.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 04:01:17


Post by: Renegade_commander


lol at the salty speece muhreen players still crying over 7th. makes my heart soar like a flock of gun drones.

anyways, im happy to hear im not the only ones having a difficult time with our index. ive got well over 100 hours of table time logged with our index and i pretty much agree with everything my fellow T'au have been saying. it REALLY comes down to our points costs. most things are pretty decent just heavily over priced by comparison.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 04:44:09


Post by: Archmagos XCIX


Wow...Any Imperium players in here whining about Ta'u should be ashamed. you've stood before the emperor, and been found wanting. I've commanded my Adeptus Mechanicus force since 7th. I've fought enough of those cursed fishmen to be a veteran of the damocles gulf crusade. countless battles across so many planets, in 7th and 8th. If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game. they look good on paper, but just don't hold up. Ever see an R'varna on the table? ever have to wrangle one with infantry? let me inform you, it don't move like no man. I used to have a tough fight in 7th with those xenos scum, in 8th though....I almost pity them. The whiny spehss mehrine players (who have the biggest dex in the entire game, and get ALL the love from GW) got what they wanted. The T'au went from this badass ranged army, to some weird short range assault tactics that are forced on them. By points value, they've been put into a position of limited spammy effectiveness, a box they never should've been stuck in. Let's be clear about the so called good commander list, it's cheesy...but I can't call it WAAC because it's not all costs, it's the only cost. other than that list, they can't compete, even index to index. the good scary things from last edition have been straight up saltily nerfed beyond usefulness (by point costs). My army has not lost ONCE to T'au this edition...no matter what my opponents pull. I take one look at that index and think, haters won. The players that couldn't outdo T'au tactics with the largest codex in the game...Hilarious. engage laughter protocols. *binahric laughter*. The Omnissiah won't give us Rhinos and YOU complain about killing t3 xenos? *static laughs* They didn't win any tournaments in my city lol, spehhs mehrines always win. and whined the loudest the entire time.

Don't even get me started on Drones, now that they're separate units...do you know how bad that hurts T'au on the table? it's ugly let me tell you. If they get into a kill points game they are so screwed, and almost always give up first blood because of them.

I could go on. tl;dr stfu whiny imperium players, T'au are garbage now, a good meal ruined with too much of your salt.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 04:48:44


Post by: Gamgee


Archmagos XCIX wrote:
Wow...Any Imperium players in here whining about Ta'u should be ashamed. you've stood before the emperor, and been found wanting. I've commanded my Adeptus Mechanicus force since 7th. I've fought enough of those cursed fishmen to be a veteran of the damocles gulf crusade. countless battles across so many planets, in 7th and 8th. If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game. they look good on paper, but just don't hold up. Ever see an R'varna on the table? ever have to wrangle one with infantry? let me inform you, it don't move like no man. I used to have a tough fight in 7th with those xenos scum, in 8th though....I almost pity them. The whiny spehss mehrine players (who have the biggest dex in the entire game, and get ALL the love from GW) got what they wanted. The T'au went from this badass ranged army, to some weird short range assault tactics that are forced on them. By points value, they've been put into a position of limited spammy effectiveness, a box they never should've been stuck in. Let's be clear about the so called good commander list, it's cheesy...but I can't call it WAAC because it's not all costs, it's the only cost. other than that list, they can't compete, even index to index. the good scary things from last edition have been straight up saltily nerfed beyond usefulness (by point costs). My army has not lost ONCE to T'au this edition...no matter what my opponents pull. I take one look at that index and think, haters won. The players that couldn't outdo T'au tactics with the largest codex in the game...Hilarious. engage laughter protocols. *binahric laughter*. The Omnissiah won't give us Rhinos and YOU complain about killing t3 xenos? *static laughs* They didn't win any tournaments in my city lol, spehhs mehrines always win. and whined the loudest the entire time.

Don't even get me started on Drones, now that they're separate units...do you know how bad that hurts T'au on the table? it's ugly let me tell you. Of they get into a kill points game they are so screwed, and almost always give up first blood because of them.

I could go on. tl;dr stfu whiny imperium players, T'au are garbage now, a good meal ruined with too much of your salt.

That is the most refreshing thing I’ve heard. I still have my doubts our 8th codex will be any good. Too much hate and salt.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:00:47


Post by: Wolfblade


It's amazing how much salt there is considering Tau were a mid tier codex in 7th, and have been nerfed pretty hard in 8th. Yes, 'tides were a problem, but they were also the only really competitive unit in the 'dex (you never saw Tau taken because of broadsides or crisis suits, or ghost keels).

But hey, so long as it's not your army right?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:01:51


Post by: Martel732


Oh it's gonna be a long time before i forget 6/7th. Tau was the biggest bully list perhaps ever; anyone playing casual or who had a mediocre codex just autolost. Imperials had to break out invisible death stars to have a chance and those of us with no access to invisibility just got shot off the table like chumps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
It's amazing how much salt there is considering Tau were a mid tier codex in 7th, and have been nerfed pretty hard in 8th. Yes, 'tides were a problem, but they were also the only really competitive unit in the 'dex (you never saw Tau taken because of broadsides or crisis suits, or ghost keels).

But hey, so long as it's not your army right?


If by mid tier you mean autowin vs half the codices in the game, sure.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:05:46


Post by: Gamgee


 Wolfblade wrote:
It's amazing how much salt there is considering Tau were a mid tier codex in 7th, and have been nerfed pretty hard in 8th. Yes, 'tides were a problem, but they were also the only really competitive unit in the 'dex (you never saw Tau taken because of broadsides or crisis suits, or ghost keels).

But hey, so long as it's not your army right?

These are the justification many use, but Tau hate goes deeper than most. It almost seems to be a psychological issue where they hate and discriminate against Tau for no reason. They just hate us in a pure mammalian emotional response. That primitive part of their brain. Whenever I ask Tau haters why they hate Tau it always seems to just boil down to I hate them once all the pretty words are gone. However there is something that triggers Tau to be hated in this way more and its hard to put words on it. I've been trying to for awhile. Almost like its a root fear for them because of the intensity of their response.

Edit
Tau was mid tier in 7th and all the data backs that up. The only broken thing was Riptides and Riptide Wings and slightly the double stormsurge combo. That is all that "broke" the Tau. The other races dexes were so bad they got their ass kicked by anyone higher tier than them. So why take your hate out on Tau specifically? Because you hate Tau you just hate Tau players fething faces for playing them. I know how you think. Your a fantasy racist through and through. I've thrown up tons of tournament data, math hammer, and all sorts of data from 7th to show that against dexes of a similar tier the Tau usually lost barring the extreme cheese. It's not the Tau's fault your dex was weak. Space marines were always stomping in 7th all the time. Why no hate for them? The Eldar seen some hate, but nothing to the level of Tau despite being 10x worse. Chaos Deamons nothing either. None of them actual top tier cheese has anywhere near the hate.

40k Racist. A thing that exists. Probably spawned on 4chan from memes and gak posting.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:08:02


Post by: Wolfblade


Martel732 wrote:
Oh it's gonna be a long time before i forget 6/7th. Tau was the biggest bully list perhaps ever; anyone playing casual or who had a mediocre codex just autolost. Imperials had to break out invisible death stars to have a chance and those of us with no access to invisibility just got shot off the table like chumps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
It's amazing how much salt there is considering Tau were a mid tier codex in 7th, and have been nerfed pretty hard in 8th. Yes, 'tides were a problem, but they were also the only really competitive unit in the 'dex (you never saw Tau taken because of broadsides or crisis suits, or ghost keels).

But hey, so long as it's not your army right?


If by mid tier you mean autowin vs half the codices in the game, sure.


Bigger than barkstar which can assault basically everything across the board? Or eldar? Or daemon summoning factory? Or basically any psychic deathstar? Right, sure.

"Mid tier" as in "places in the middle of the pack".

 Gamgee wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
It's amazing how much salt there is considering Tau were a mid tier codex in 7th, and have been nerfed pretty hard in 8th. Yes, 'tides were a problem, but they were also the only really competitive unit in the 'dex (you never saw Tau taken because of broadsides or crisis suits, or ghost keels).

But hey, so long as it's not your army right?

These are the justification many use, but Tau hate goes deeper than most. It almost seems to be a psychological issue where they hate and discriminate against Tau for no reason. They just hate us in a pure mammalian emotional response. That primitive part of their brain. Whenever I ask Tau haters why they hate Tau it always seems to just boil down to I hate them once all the pretty words are gone. However there is something that triggers Tau to be hated in this way more and its hard to put words on it. I've been trying to for awhile. Almost like its a root fear for them because of the intensity of their response.


That's what it seems like. The reason to hate tau is others hate tau.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:09:12


Post by: Martel732


No, you were just giant cheese mongers for editions. What goes up usually comes down. I say usually because eldar.

Tau were elite for two editions, even though there were a few bigger cheeses.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:13:09


Post by: Archmagos XCIX


I'd also like to point out, T'au don't have a Cawl, or Celestine..or...y'know...Primarchs...

The reality is, outside a Riptide wing and other standard cheese (which space marines have in abundance) they weren't that scary in 8th. The more I played them, and got to know my opponents army as well as my own, I started being able to beat them. With my Ad Mech. In 7th my rangers outperform a fire warrior unit squad to squad any day. If you played against bullies and have a crappy community, I feel ya. But where I'm from, we have a big group of good people. I learned how to purge the xenos scum with grav destroyers and Kastelans back in 7th. With a codex a fraction of the size of space marines.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 05:16:31


Post by: Wolfblade


Martel732 wrote:
No, you were just giant cheese mongers for editions. What goes up usually comes down. I say usually because eldar.


I fell like your channeling Traditio here with your hatred of Tau. It's mostly irrational since Tau are gonna be pretty bad for this edition.

When were marines so bad that they've never been competitive? 8th, kinda? I mean, they still have reroll girllyman, access to everything else in the imperium's playbook as needed.

Actually, the only cheese Tau really had were riptides. Take them away and you had an ok army with internal balance issues (i.e. vespids)


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 06:24:14


Post by: Infantryman


Archmagos XCIX wrote:
If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game.


No one is saying that.

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 09:24:26


Post by: momerathe


I think a lot of the salt directed at Tau was because of people going "hmm, my scatterbike eldar need a little something - I know, a riptide wing!".

I don't pay Tau but I like the models, especially the big Gundams; I'd like riptides to be just sliiiiightly overpointed so I could pick a few up without people throwing to much shade my way, and yet not get curbstomped.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 09:25:33


Post by: BoomWolf


Logic need not apply for tau haters.
At some point I even ran mathematical comparisons to show even the riptide can't shoot all that well outside the spesific overcharge ion accelerator by showing how subpar units (like the necron Anni barge) out shoot it in almost every scenario, that didn't matter.

Tau on 7th were a decent nid tier army with ONE overpowered choice, a riptide with ion accelerator (hymp broadsides were very good too, but not op)
That's why late 7th the only tau to reach tournament high tables were a riptide wing inside another army, usually eldar.

Even during 6th "glory days", the best build was by far taudar. Who was more eldar than tau, and abused psyker powers on riptides.

Heck, tau were hated at godamn 5h, when we were the worst codex by far. Power level isn't even an excuse back then.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 09:52:52


Post by: Brutallica


Archmagos XCIX wrote:
Wow...Any Imperium players in here whining about Ta'u should be ashamed. you've stood before the emperor, and been found wanting. I've commanded my Adeptus Mechanicus force since 7th. I've fought enough of those cursed fishmen to be a veteran of the damocles gulf crusade. countless battles across so many planets, in 7th and 8th. If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game. they look good on paper, but just don't hold up. Ever see an R'varna on the table? ever have to wrangle one with infantry? let me inform you, it don't move like no man. I used to have a tough fight in 7th with those xenos scum, in 8th though....I almost pity them. The whiny spehss mehrine players (who have the biggest dex in the entire game, and get ALL the love from GW) got what they wanted. The T'au went from this badass ranged army, to some weird short range assault tactics that are forced on them. By points value, they've been put into a position of limited spammy effectiveness, a box they never should've been stuck in. Let's be clear about the so called good commander list, it's cheesy...but I can't call it WAAC because it's not all costs, it's the only cost. other than that list, they can't compete, even index to index. the good scary things from last edition have been straight up saltily nerfed beyond usefulness (by point costs). My army has not lost ONCE to T'au this edition...no matter what my opponents pull. I take one look at that index and think, haters won. The players that couldn't outdo T'au tactics with the largest codex in the game...Hilarious. engage laughter protocols. *binahric laughter*. The Omnissiah won't give us Rhinos and YOU complain about killing t3 xenos? *static laughs* They didn't win any tournaments in my city lol, spehhs mehrines always win. and whined the loudest the entire time.

Don't even get me started on Drones, now that they're separate units...do you know how bad that hurts T'au on the table? it's ugly let me tell you. If they get into a kill points game they are so screwed, and almost always give up first blood because of them.

I could go on. tl;dr stfu whiny imperium players, T'au are garbage now, a good meal ruined with too much of your salt.


So everything Tau has is useless, and seperate drones is super bad, even tho you can allocate wounds to them. People hate tau because of people with attitudes like yours.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 10:29:02


Post by: Gamgee


Drones suck other than gun drones which aren’t op at all. If it wasn’t for them acting as shooting multipliers at the same time as wounds for so cheap we would be stuck with fire warriors and even more points inefficient lists. Since we would need fire warriors to shoot and some other drone tax to keep our units alive.

Gun drones are the only perfect unit we have right now, and they don’t win battles without support. They don’t need to be changed.

Or should drones not stop wounds now and cost 50 points a drone Tau hater?

Separate drones are bad because they rely on their crap morale. If they were upgrades to units they could use the squads better morale and also stop wounds, but god forbid the Tau actually stand a chance of a chance to survive longer than a picosecond.

Brutality your literally the stereotypical Tau hater that doesn’t respond to thought or rational talk but just posts verbal garbage and clutter. Thanks for you rousing argument.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 10:41:10


Post by: tneva82


 Brutallica wrote:
but its my experince with Tau players never ever take a chance or go with a different style. Only what wins games. Is it a Tau thing or just an unlucky stigma?


That sounds like any 40k player in tournaments. Gee. People take strong lists to tournaments/leagues. What a newsflash.

If army needs to be nerfed to death because people take only optimal builds to tournaments/leagues then all armies should be nerfed to uselessness.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 11:01:55


Post by: Brutallica


text removed.

Reds8n




Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
but its my experince with Tau players never ever take a chance or go with a different style. Only what wins games. Is it a Tau thing or just an unlucky stigma?


That sounds like any 40k player in tournaments. Gee. People take strong lists to tournaments/leagues. What a newsflash.

If army needs to be nerfed to death because people take only optimal builds to tournaments/leagues then all armies should be nerfed to uselessness.



Im not talking about tournament Tau, everyone plays the same copycat junk in tournaments. So that would go for everyone IF i was talking about tournaments.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 11:19:37


Post by: Aenar


In 7th Tau had one OP thing: the Riptide Wing formation. The Riptide itself was very good and deserved a point increase, but it was the formation that did the heavy lifting.

In 8th Tau are bottom tier, by far. The only playable units are Commanders and Drones.
It is not a matter for debate: it was statistically demonstrated in a thread (here on dakka) where players collected their results over the summer.
The release of the Codex for some armies made it even more difficult for Tau to even have a chance of winning (bar using only Commanders and Drones).


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 11:28:49


Post by: CREEEEEEEEED


Martel732 wrote:
Until tau suffer gk-level pennance, i will be firmly anti-tau.

Classic Martel. Can we organise a hall of fame?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 11:39:30


Post by: tneva82


 Brutallica wrote:
Im not talking about tournament Tau, everyone plays the same copycat junk in tournaments. So that would go for everyone IF i was talking about tournaments.


Tournament lists have habit of bleeding into other games outside close group of friends in private games and those vary by group. But random games in FLGS? Expect to see tournament level lists regardless of army.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 12:25:17


Post by: Vector Strike


As usual, these Tau threads all go down to pointed fingers. Although I seriously suspect FLG had their gribbly hands on such nerf - as we all know, they didn't love Tau that much back then. But I can't prove that, so I have to roll with what I have.

These places can help you, OP (if you are still around):

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726989.page

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewforum.php?f=52&sid=d938330dcf6301b283b98fd29aa8b945

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/

as also watching battle reports (Tau is a popular army, so you might find a sizeable number of them)

As for my own opinion... Tau could go toe-to-toe with SM flavours back when they both used indexes. AM was harder (also index).
Now that SM and AM have their indexes, you should expect these games to get a lot harder (especially AM)

Didn't fight other xenos or chaos, so can't comment on them.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 13:42:26


Post by: Martel732


 Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, you were just giant cheese mongers for editions. What goes up usually comes down. I say usually because eldar.


I fell like your channeling Traditio here with your hatred of Tau. It's mostly irrational since Tau are gonna be pretty bad for this edition.

When were marines so bad that they've never been competitive? 8th, kinda? I mean, they still have reroll girllyman, access to everything else in the imperium's playbook as needed.

Actually, the only cheese Tau really had were riptides. Take them away and you had an ok army with internal balance issues (i.e. vespids)


2nd and 5th.

For BA, that expands to 2nd, 4th, first half of 5th, 6th, 7th, and now 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Logic need not apply for tau haters.
At some point I even ran mathematical comparisons to show even the riptide can't shoot all that well outside the spesific overcharge ion accelerator by showing how subpar units (like the necron Anni barge) out shoot it in almost every scenario, that didn't matter.

Tau on 7th were a decent nid tier army with ONE overpowered choice, a riptide with ion accelerator (hymp broadsides were very good too, but not op)
That's why late 7th the only tau to reach tournament high tables were a riptide wing inside another army, usually eldar.

Even during 6th "glory days", the best build was by far taudar. Who was more eldar than tau, and abused psyker powers on riptides.

Heck, tau were hated at godamn 5h, when we were the worst codex by far. Power level isn't even an excuse back then.
z

Didn't care about Tau in 5th.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 13:50:23


Post by: the_scotsman


tau are probably number one on the list of armies I wish they were updating instead of getting us to 90% Chaos/Imperium army codexes by january. Seriously, we'll have Space Marines, CSM, AM, DG, GK, BA, DA, Daemons, Admech all done, and all of two freakin' xenos armies will have codexes, with factions like Orks, Tau, and Necrons still sitting around with their thumbs up their butts waiting for rules that don't suck.

Exactly one of my armies has a codex currently (my vostroyans) and for the rest I've got the prospect of just sitting around and waiting for another three plus months for GW to get to the interesting factions. HOpefully CA brings out some stuff to close the gap.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 13:51:32


Post by: Martel732


GW had their chance to be different and release Tau instead of Eldar.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 13:54:29


Post by: the_scotsman


Martel732 wrote:
GW had their chance to be different and release Tau instead of Eldar.


Yeah, because we can't replace any of the seven marine factions that had to come out before we could get to any xenos in the release schedule, that's just a given.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 13:55:33


Post by: Martel732


I'm willing to throw the Space Wolves under the bus. Or the GK. I knew the GK would suck in 8th anyway.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 14:10:48


Post by: BoomWolf


Forget gk, they got released along DG so they get a pass.

Why is the next release BA and DA? That's just absurd.
They could easily do one and a xeno.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 14:22:33


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Martel732 wrote:
No, you were just giant cheese mongers for editions. What goes up usually comes down. I say usually because eldar.

Tau were elite for two editions, even though there were a few bigger cheeses.


Riptides were elite for two editions, not the Tau as a whole.

As for how Tau do at the moment? We basically do not play like Tau. We lost our signature manoeuvrability (jump-shoot-jump), though GW had made that basically non-essential with their idiotic rules writing which gave an army which should operate as a mobile mechanised force bonuses for clustering up and standing still, a lot of our units are overcosted by some margin for the firepower they put out (e.g. 165ppm minimum for a Heavy 2, S8, -4AP, D: D6 weapon and 2 Rapid Fire 1 S6 AP-3 D1 weapons) and our Commander aura buffs are limited use.



So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 14:28:10


Post by: Bharring


But SM were cheese for at least 3 editions now:
6E: Relentless Grav
7E: Obsec Spam, Relentless Grav, Skyhammer, Gladius, and more
8E: Big-G

I'm glad Tau aren't what they were last edition, too, but I'd rather not see any faction busted that far down.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 14:30:59


Post by: Brutallica


 BoomWolf wrote:
Forget gk, they got released along DG so they get a pass.

Why is the next release BA and DA? That's just absurd.
They could easily do one and a xeno.



I agree on this, they could have kicked 8th up in gear with a xeno and marine release. Im wondering if this is a 'buisness model' from GW to make people jump ship to more unpopular armies.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 14:59:54


Post by: Martel732


Bharring wrote:
But SM were cheese for at least 3 editions now:
6E: Relentless Grav
7E: Obsec Spam, Relentless Grav, Skyhammer, Gladius, and more
8E: Big-G

I'm glad Tau aren't what they were last edition, too, but I'd rather not see any faction busted that far down.


Interestingly enough, i'm not a marine player, but rather, an meq player. GW got the memo on their poster boys getting the beat down in 5th i guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also rumor has it from my local store that ba kits have sold poorly for 5 years. Wonder why?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 15:22:34


Post by: Galas


Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
But SM were cheese for at least 3 editions now:
6E: Relentless Grav
7E: Obsec Spam, Relentless Grav, Skyhammer, Gladius, and more
8E: Big-G

I'm glad Tau aren't what they were last edition, too, but I'd rather not see any faction busted that far down.


Interestingly enough, i'm not a marine player, but rather, an meq player. GW got the memo on their poster boys getting the beat down in 5th i guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also rumor has it from my local store that ba kits have sold poorly for 5 years. Wonder why?


You deserve it for being a Twilight Marine. Come to the Not-Chaos-Legit Angels. We had Barkastar and now Azrael parking lot. But still 20 points powerfists. But no problem GW will fix it in 1 month and a half because obviously thats more of a priority than the big Xenos factions having a Codex.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 15:42:05


Post by: Captain Joystick


Martel732 wrote:
Until tau suffer gk-level pennance


That was 5th edition. Where they did only one thing almost as well as generalist armies and half their generic HQ choices had the super incredible power to make the army run away screaming after they died.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they get in their codex. Hoping the hammerheads get some love.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 15:51:52


Post by: Imateria


 Brutallica wrote:
Archmagos XCIX wrote:
Wow...Any Imperium players in here whining about Ta'u should be ashamed. you've stood before the emperor, and been found wanting. I've commanded my Adeptus Mechanicus force since 7th. I've fought enough of those cursed fishmen to be a veteran of the damocles gulf crusade. countless battles across so many planets, in 7th and 8th. If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game. they look good on paper, but just don't hold up. Ever see an R'varna on the table? ever have to wrangle one with infantry? let me inform you, it don't move like no man. I used to have a tough fight in 7th with those xenos scum, in 8th though....I almost pity them. The whiny spehss mehrine players (who have the biggest dex in the entire game, and get ALL the love from GW) got what they wanted. The T'au went from this badass ranged army, to some weird short range assault tactics that are forced on them. By points value, they've been put into a position of limited spammy effectiveness, a box they never should've been stuck in. Let's be clear about the so called good commander list, it's cheesy...but I can't call it WAAC because it's not all costs, it's the only cost. other than that list, they can't compete, even index to index. the good scary things from last edition have been straight up saltily nerfed beyond usefulness (by point costs). My army has not lost ONCE to T'au this edition...no matter what my opponents pull. I take one look at that index and think, haters won. The players that couldn't outdo T'au tactics with the largest codex in the game...Hilarious. engage laughter protocols. *binahric laughter*. The Omnissiah won't give us Rhinos and YOU complain about killing t3 xenos? *static laughs* They didn't win any tournaments in my city lol, spehhs mehrines always win. and whined the loudest the entire time.

Don't even get me started on Drones, now that they're separate units...do you know how bad that hurts T'au on the table? it's ugly let me tell you. If they get into a kill points game they are so screwed, and almost always give up first blood because of them.

I could go on. tl;dr stfu whiny imperium players, T'au are garbage now, a good meal ruined with too much of your salt.


So everything Tau has is useless, and seperate drones is super bad, even tho you can allocate wounds to them. People hate tau because of people with attitudes like yours.

The fact that you're a terrible player isn't the fault of Tau but yourself. I mean, you always shoot the bodyguard units first to stop them soaking up wounds, doesn't matter if its drones or Tyrant Guard, this is pretty much tactics 101. And yes, everything else Tau has is useless. Like Archmagos above I'm not a Tau player, Dark Eldar and Nids here, but I feel so sorry for my Tau playing friends because I have to run Wych Cults or Haemonculus Covens just to avoid kerbstomping them.

Given the illogical hate your spouting, every post you've made in this thread is shouting TFG really loudly.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:05:08


Post by: Xenomancers


I beat dark eldar everytime with tau. Rockets are particularly good against dark eldar.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:23:31


Post by: Brutallica


 Imateria wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
Archmagos XCIX wrote:
Wow...Any Imperium players in here whining about Ta'u should be ashamed. you've stood before the emperor, and been found wanting. I've commanded my Adeptus Mechanicus force since 7th. I've fought enough of those cursed fishmen to be a veteran of the damocles gulf crusade. countless battles across so many planets, in 7th and 8th. If you think they have anything OP this edition, you clearly don't play them or maybe even this game. they look good on paper, but just don't hold up. Ever see an R'varna on the table? ever have to wrangle one with infantry? let me inform you, it don't move like no man. I used to have a tough fight in 7th with those xenos scum, in 8th though....I almost pity them. The whiny spehss mehrine players (who have the biggest dex in the entire game, and get ALL the love from GW) got what they wanted. The T'au went from this badass ranged army, to some weird short range assault tactics that are forced on them. By points value, they've been put into a position of limited spammy effectiveness, a box they never should've been stuck in. Let's be clear about the so called good commander list, it's cheesy...but I can't call it WAAC because it's not all costs, it's the only cost. other than that list, they can't compete, even index to index. the good scary things from last edition have been straight up saltily nerfed beyond usefulness (by point costs). My army has not lost ONCE to T'au this edition...no matter what my opponents pull. I take one look at that index and think, haters won. The players that couldn't outdo T'au tactics with the largest codex in the game...Hilarious. engage laughter protocols. *binahric laughter*. The Omnissiah won't give us Rhinos and YOU complain about killing t3 xenos? *static laughs* They didn't win any tournaments in my city lol, spehhs mehrines always win. and whined the loudest the entire time.

Don't even get me started on Drones, now that they're separate units...do you know how bad that hurts T'au on the table? it's ugly let me tell you. If they get into a kill points game they are so screwed, and almost always give up first blood because of them.

I could go on. tl;dr stfu whiny imperium players, T'au are garbage now, a good meal ruined with too much of your salt.


So everything Tau has is useless, and seperate drones is super bad, even tho you can allocate wounds to them. People hate tau because of people with attitudes like yours.

The fact that you're a terrible player isn't the fault of Tau but yourself. I mean, you always shoot the bodyguard units first to stop them soaking up wounds, doesn't matter if its drones or Tyrant Guard, this is pretty much tactics 101. And yes, everything else Tau has is useless. Like Archmagos above I'm not a Tau player, Dark Eldar and Nids here, but I feel so sorry for my Tau playing friends because I have to run Wych Cults or Haemonculus Covens just to avoid kerbstomping them.

Given the illogical hate your spouting, every post you've made in this thread is shouting TFG really loudly.


text removed.
Don't bypass the language filter like this Reds8n


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:47:07


Post by: orchewer


Re: The OP's Question ...

I've played a couple of games with Tau in 8th so far. Beat Guard, Orks, and Necrons, but keep losing to Chaos. Tau are definitely different than back in 4th Edition:
- Surprisingly, less manouverable due to the loss of Jump-Shoot-Jump
- New wound chart hurt Tau a little bit as the pulse rifle no longer wounds T3 models on a 2+
- A few of our classic Crisis Suit load outs are no longer really viable (no one really uses Fireknife anymore, especially since our Plasma Guns got nerfed)
- Whole host of different suit options (Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, Riptides) now exist
- Ethereals dying no longer causes our entire army to collapse
Etc.

As people have mentioned, competitive Tau does seem to be Commander spam with as many Drones as possible (Tau get a new special rule which states that Drones can take wounds from Suits). I don't play Commander Spam, so that probably explains my middling 8th record, but I have found some success in other areas:
- Stealth Suits with Advanced Targeting Systems are expensive, but are incredibly effective
- Cadre Fireblade with Firewarriors and a Pulse Accelerator Drone from a Pathfinder Squad is a mean little combo
- Ghostkeels are amazing distraction Carnifexes

I've had fun with them and I'll patiently wait for the new codex to see what new toys I can bring into my army.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:49:45


Post by: BoomWolf


Except it pretty much is an autolose army?

Tau unit these days have been watered down, simplified and then made really bad at cost-effect ratios.

Nearly every one of our units can be directly compared to a similar marine unit that is considered non-viable, and lose.

Index tau have no firepower, mobility, or unique abilities.
The only thing tau CAN do, is try to zerg rush you with cost-efficent yet stupid drones (can only shoot nearest target, short range to begin with though), and rather efficient commanders and hope to drown you in numbers.
Tau. drown you in numbers.
I assume you can see why that would fail against ACTUAL horde armies that have mechanics to support their hordes.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:51:29


Post by: Martel732


8 pt firewarriors have 3+ armor in cover and wound almost everything on a 5+ at worst. They are amazing, imo. I play against a list with 90-100 of these guys and have yet to beat it.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 17:52:44


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
8 pt firewarriors have 3+ armor in cover and wound almost everything on a 5+ at worst. They are amazing, imo. I play against a list with 90-100 of these guys and have yet to beat it.
The firewarrior is really good. Lots of tau players only have riptides though so ... they just whine.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:02:37


Post by: BoomWolf


13 point marines have 2+ armor in cover, hit everything on a 3+, have a better T, if it comes to a slap fight they'll win and the are hailed by some as the worst troops in the game.

Fire warriors are not utter junk, but you can't hold a goddamn army around a unit with no access to heavy weapons, because the only thing fire warriors can handle is other light infantry, and drones outpreform them.
As FW can't hold objectives anyway and practically any other troop in the game can toss them away, being ObjSec isn't helping them, so might as well take the slightly more efficient drone.


The problem with tau, is that all the heavy tools are just ourtight BAD (commander aside)
A railgun hammerhead for example, costs more than a predator, but a single rail shot is nowhere near as good as 4 lascannons.
Heck, a rail BROADSIDE costs like a predator with twinlas+heavy bolters. its not nearly as good.

Crisis suits are overpriced jak that makes the new "marine crisis suits" that are the inceptors look amazing in comparison.

Skyray are an outright joke.
Markerlights as a whole are an outright joke. half the things it does either overlap with mandatory wargear (you can't afford NOT to take them, because you can't trust the lights to be there), does something situational or even does things you don't give a damn about.

Heck, the index as a whole, and markerlights as the core mechanic are SO bad, the army is barely competitive if you assume all-time 5 markers on every enemy unit, for free. (aside from the gun drone, who would become outright broken on these conditions as he really gains the most from lights)


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:12:04


Post by: Martel732


 BoomWolf wrote:
13 point marines have 2+ armor in cover, hit everything on a 3+, have a better T, if it comes to a slap fight they'll win and the are hailed by some as the worst troops in the game.

Fire warriors are not utter junk, but you can't hold a goddamn army around a unit with no access to heavy weapons, because the only thing fire warriors can handle is other light infantry, and drones outpreform them.
As FW can't hold objectives anyway and practically any other troop in the game can toss them away, being ObjSec isn't helping them, so might as well take the slightly more efficient drone.


The problem with tau, is that all the heavy tools are just ourtight BAD (commander aside)
A railgun hammerhead for example, costs more than a predator, but a single rail shot is nowhere near as good as 4 lascannons.
Heck, a rail BROADSIDE costs like a predator with twinlas+heavy bolters. its not nearly as good.

Crisis suits are overpriced jak that makes the new "marine crisis suits" that are the inceptors look amazing in comparison.

Skyray are an outright joke.
Markerlights as a whole are an outright joke. half the things it does either overlap with mandatory wargear (you can't afford NOT to take them, because you can't trust the lights to be there), does something situational or even does things you don't give a damn about.

Heck, the index as a whole, and markerlights as the core mechanic are SO bad, the army is barely competitive if you assume all-time 5 markers on every enemy unit, for free. (aside from the gun drone, who would become outright broken on these conditions as he really gains the most from lights)


13 pt marines have far fewer shots than 8 pt firewarriors, and can't engage T8 with THEIR SMALL ARMS. Firewarriors are closer to the magical geq pricepoint, and are leaps and bounds better than tac marines. Obviously the perfect unit being a 1pt model with 1 S 1 T 1 W no gun no save that exist to physically prevent the opponent from moving anywhere.

Tau fire warriors are one of the reasons I consider the Repulsor unplayable.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:14:41


Post by: Galas


 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
8 pt firewarriors have 3+ armor in cover and wound almost everything on a 5+ at worst. They are amazing, imo. I play against a list with 90-100 of these guys and have yet to beat it.
The firewarrior is really good. Lots of tau players only have riptides though so ... they just whine.


I have 60 Firewarriors with Rifles + 20 firewarriors with carbines and 50 Kroots.
But they are of the old ones. I'm planing to buy two start collectings to add 6 Crisis Suits of the new ones and 20 Breachers.

The Tau player with only Riptides wherent Tau players, they were Eldar players

I'm very glad that at last my Fire Wariors are doing work, and my Stealth Suits are worth it. My biggest problem to be honest is not that Broadsides and Riptides are nerfed, I have only 6 of the first ones ant one Riptide. But I want my Tanks to be viable. I love Tau tanks, and Piranhas (I have 4). And I want to be able to use them.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:28:08


Post by: Bharring


Model-for-model, Marines and Fire Warriors have the same number of shots in the same conditions. FW have longer range (so longer doubletap range), and have more support options that give them more range. So 'Far Fewer' is *quite* the stretch. And, if you're talking support/upgrades to maximise number of shots, you're looking at Grav Cannons and Flamers, so even being pedantic it's not correct.

Marines can wound T8 with their small arms. It's only on 6s, but everything wounds on 6s. But neither Pulse Rifles nor Boltguns are going to be doing much to T8, and do the same to T7.

They are closer to chaff, as they are points efficient. But if you're trying to survive small arms in cover, the 13ppm Marine has 16 points worth of FW survivability.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:40:39


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


What is going on here? There's a large amount of revisionist history in this thread -- 7th edition Tau were incredibly far above "mid-tier", in both casual and competitive games. In casual play, Tau had almost nothing that was suboptimal (Kroot were pretty bad, but even Vespids... man, I wish Tyranids had Vespids in 7th, I would've been thankful for them), and fire warriors and markerlights fried lesser codices without a need for the bigger suits (don't get me started on the bigger suits...). Tau didn't need Riptide Wings to table most of the have-nots. Then, in competitive, Tau were not the top army, but they had lots of high placings -- just because they weren't number 1 didn't keep them out of the top 8. Additionally, in tournaments that allowed the Ta'unar, they WERE busted -- I think before we talk about their 8th edition rules, we need to get this out of the way. Tau were REALLY strong in 7th, and that, in addition to their one-dimensional playstyle earned them a lot of salt from players (and I don't think that was undeserved).

That being said... in 8th, they do need a buff. The comparisons to 7th edition Tyranids are apt, and having played that army in that edition, it's not very fun. I hope Tau get some good rules fairly soon. I also don't think they need to be at the front of the line, though; they received a fair bit of love in 7th from GW and Forge World, and I'd much rather see the earlier codices (Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels) get their releases first. Hopefully CA makes some changes that push more of their units back into viable tier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
8 pt firewarriors have 3+ armor in cover and wound almost everything on a 5+ at worst. They are amazing, imo. I play against a list with 90-100 of these guys and have yet to beat it.


I never really thought about this -- obviously, fire warriors crumple much more than tanks do, but this is Punisher-tier output. I think my comparisons to 7th ed Tyranids remain apt, but I guess Tau do have a few different strats they can do (Commander spam, FW spam, stealth/ghostkeel lists).


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 18:56:14


Post by: Martel732


Dude. There are 60% more firewarriors than marines. What are talking about? They get 60% more shots per point.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 19:00:50


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galas wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
8 pt firewarriors have 3+ armor in cover and wound almost everything on a 5+ at worst. They are amazing, imo. I play against a list with 90-100 of these guys and have yet to beat it.
The firewarrior is really good. Lots of tau players only have riptides though so ... they just whine.


I have 60 Firewarriors with Rifles + 20 firewarriors with carbines and 50 Kroots.
But they are of the old ones. I'm planing to buy two start collectings to add 6 Crisis Suits of the new ones and 20 Breachers.

The Tau player with only Riptides wherent Tau players, they were Eldar players

I'm very glad that at last my Fire Wariors are doing work, and my Stealth Suits are worth it. My biggest problem to be honest is not that Broadsides and Riptides are nerfed, I have only 6 of the first ones ant one Riptide. But I want my Tanks to be viable. I love Tau tanks, and Piranhas (I have 4). And I want to be able to use them.

In 7th my go to unit was always a 10 man fire warrior and a fireblade floating around on a gunrig. It was hilariously OP. The gun rig made them count as stationary and the firebladegave them +1 shot and the gunrig got 2+ to hit twin linked rail gun. It was a pretty cheap unit too.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 19:07:47


Post by: Infantryman


Damn, did not expect this to be a hot topic.

orchewer wrote:Re: The OP's Question ...

I've played a couple of games with Tau in 8th so far. Beat Guard, Orks, and Necrons, but keep losing to Chaos. Tau are definitely different than back in 4th Edition:
- Surprisingly, less manouverable due to the loss of Jump-Shoot-Jump
- New wound chart hurt Tau a little bit as the pulse rifle no longer wounds T3 models on a 2+
- A few of our classic Crisis Suit load outs are no longer really viable (no one really uses Fireknife anymore, especially since our Plasma Guns got nerfed)
- Whole host of different suit options (Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, Riptides) now exist
- Ethereals dying no longer causes our entire army to collapse
Etc.

As people have mentioned, competitive Tau does seem to be Commander spam with as many Drones as possible (Tau get a new special rule which states that Drones can take wounds from Suits). I don't play Commander Spam, so that probably explains my middling 8th record, but I have found some success in other areas:
- Stealth Suits with Advanced Targeting Systems are expensive, but are incredibly effective
- Cadre Fireblade with Firewarriors and a Pulse Accelerator Drone from a Pathfinder Squad is a mean little combo
- Ghostkeels are amazing distraction Carnifexes

I've had fun with them and I'll patiently wait for the new codex to see what new toys I can bring into my army.


Strange that they lose JSJ - that was a very important mechanic for them, I remember. The Etherial thing - I guess the Mind Control theory is no longer having any support, then.

Did Drones taking wounds go away for a few editions? I definitely remember that being there in 3e/4e.

While I was not a Tau player, I would like to see them make a comeback as most of the models were pretty cool, and I liked a non-major power Xeno force making a show of it.

(They'd better have those Gue'vesa in the Codex!)

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 19:51:06


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Infantryman wrote:
Damn, did not expect this to be a hot topic.

orchewer wrote:Re: The OP's Question ...

I've played a couple of games with Tau in 8th so far. Beat Guard, Orks, and Necrons, but keep losing to Chaos. Tau are definitely different than back in 4th Edition:
- Surprisingly, less manouverable due to the loss of Jump-Shoot-Jump
- New wound chart hurt Tau a little bit as the pulse rifle no longer wounds T3 models on a 2+
- A few of our classic Crisis Suit load outs are no longer really viable (no one really uses Fireknife anymore, especially since our Plasma Guns got nerfed)
- Whole host of different suit options (Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, Riptides) now exist
- Ethereals dying no longer causes our entire army to collapse
Etc.

As people have mentioned, competitive Tau does seem to be Commander spam with as many Drones as possible (Tau get a new special rule which states that Drones can take wounds from Suits). I don't play Commander Spam, so that probably explains my middling 8th record, but I have found some success in other areas:
- Stealth Suits with Advanced Targeting Systems are expensive, but are incredibly effective
- Cadre Fireblade with Firewarriors and a Pulse Accelerator Drone from a Pathfinder Squad is a mean little combo
- Ghostkeels are amazing distraction Carnifexes

I've had fun with them and I'll patiently wait for the new codex to see what new toys I can bring into my army.


Strange that they lose JSJ - that was a very important mechanic for them, I remember. The Etherial thing - I guess the Mind Control theory is no longer having any support, then.

Did Drones taking wounds go away for a few editions? I definitely remember that being there in 3e/4e.

While I was not a Tau player, I would like to see them make a comeback as most of the models were pretty cool, and I liked a non-major power Xeno force making a show of it.

(They'd better have those Gue'vesa in the Codex!)

M.


Everyone lost JSJ -- Eldar got it back in the codex (sorta), but it's clearly not a mechanic that GW wants. It also is pretty frustrating to play against.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 19:56:04


Post by: orchewer


 Infantryman wrote:


Did Drones taking wounds go away for a few editions? I definitely remember that being there in 3e/4e.



I think back in 3rd Ed/4th Ed, that had more to do with mixed-toughness shenanigans, but in 8th Ed, all drones essentially have an explicit rule that says "if a Suit takes a wound and your Drone is close enough, you can give that wound to the Drone instead" (I'm paraphrasing).


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 20:28:24


Post by: Vector Strike


 Infantryman wrote:

(They'd better have those Gue'vesa in the Codex!)

M.


I wouldn't expect that. FW tried once and they had so bad rules noone really cared about them.
One way would be letting us field specific AM units as allies, but that's most akin to a patch up than a real answer


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 20:47:32


Post by: Kanluwen


 Vector Strike wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:

(They'd better have those Gue'vesa in the Codex!)

M.


I wouldn't expect that. FW tried once and they had so bad rules noone really cared about them.
One way would be letting us field specific AM units as allies, but that's most akin to a patch up than a real answer

To be fair, the Gue'vasa weren't in the codex. They were in the reprinted Taros book and as scenario specific things in the first Taros.

With that said, I really hope it's not the way you want it. The whole point of Gue'vasa is that they're units armed and equipped to fight as part of the Tau forces. They aren't really the "traitor" units by this point in time, they're people bred and raised under the Tau dominion.

They shouldn't just be Guard units. They should be something different and interesting.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 21:06:21


Post by: Infantryman


Vector Strike wrote:I wouldn't expect that. FW tried once and they had so bad rules noone really cared about them.
One way would be letting us field specific AM units as allies, but that's most akin to a patch up than a real answer


I don't expect it, because the theme seems to be contraction rather than expansion for 40k in this edition.

As for rules, well not everything needs to be Tier 1 - especially not units that ostensibly require two kits to build (both of which already have other reasons to exist).

Kanluwen wrote:

To be fair, the Gue'vasa weren't in the codex. They were in the reprinted Taros book and as scenario specific things in the first Taros.

With that said, I really hope it's not the way you want it. The whole point of Gue'vasa is that they're units armed and equipped to fight as part of the Tau forces. They aren't really the "traitor" units by this point in time, they're people bred and raised under the Tau dominion.

They shouldn't just be Guard units. They should be something different and interesting.


Well, they should be a variety of things, from Traitor Guard with some (perhaps) limited Tau equipment, to Humans who've been born in and lived their entire lives within the Tau Empire - essentially trained and equipped much as such.

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 21:48:01


Post by: dragonelf


It's T'au


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 21:56:12


Post by: Bharring


Some of the born 'n raised T'au Gue'sava should probably be using Pulse weaponry and the Fire Warrior stats/rules.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 22:19:04


Post by: Kanluwen


 Infantryman wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

To be fair, the Gue'vasa weren't in the codex. They were in the reprinted Taros book and as scenario specific things in the first Taros.

With that said, I really hope it's not the way you want it. The whole point of Gue'vasa is that they're units armed and equipped to fight as part of the Tau forces. They aren't really the "traitor" units by this point in time, they're people bred and raised under the Tau dominion.

They shouldn't just be Guard units. They should be something different and interesting.


Well, they should be a variety of things, from Traitor Guard with some (perhaps) limited Tau equipment, to Humans who've been born in and lived their entire lives within the Tau Empire - essentially trained and equipped much as such.

M.

Except no, they shouldn't.

The ones who were "traitor guard units" were NEVER actually from Guard units. Read Taros again for a great example of this, the defectors primarily came from the PDF of planets that the Tau invaded. Guard equipment got handed over to them and the Guardsmen themselves usually ended up executed/worked to death because the defectors felt the need to "prove themselves" to their new overlords.

And if that's the case well, then you might as well just field the Renegades & Heretics list from FW.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 23:12:28


Post by: Infantryman


 Kanluwen wrote:

Except no, they shouldn't.

The ones who were "traitor guard units" were NEVER actually from Guard units. Read Taros again for a great example of this, the defectors primarily came from the PDF of planets that the Tau invaded. Guard equipment got handed over to them and the Guardsmen themselves usually ended up executed/worked to death because the defectors felt the need to "prove themselves" to their new overlords.


That time, yeah. There are other campaigns, however.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And if that's the case well, then you might as well just field the Renegades & Heretics list from FW.


Sure, except they're Chaos.

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/17 23:39:24


Post by: BoomWolf


Or, yaknow, we can get a subset faction that incorporates a bit of tau into AM to create gu'vesa as a separate force, much like renegades and GSC are separate forces.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 00:00:03


Post by: Galas


No, thanks. Now everyone wants to have Imperial Guard options? Gue'Vesa should have their own equipement and their own options. Theres no reason for a Gue'Vesa force to use Imperial Guard equipement.

And to be honest I prefer expanded Vespids, Kroots and Demiurg before any kind of Human Auxiliaries.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 00:27:02


Post by: Gamgee


 Galas wrote:
No, thanks. Now everyone wants to have Imperial Guard options? Gue'Vesa should have their own equipement and their own options. Theres no reason for a Gue'Vesa force to use Imperial Guard equipement.

And to be honest I prefer expanded Vespids, Kroots and Demiurg before any kind of Human Auxiliaries.

Hear hear. The last thing 40k needs is more humans and IoM stuff.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 00:27:25


Post by: Marmatag


With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 00:55:37


Post by: Galas


 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.


And Gun Drones should have a little redesign. Right now is not that they are only too good, but they make Firewarriors redundant. If you just nerf them, then people will bring Firewarriors. They should have a better niche.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 00:57:07


Post by: Gamgee


 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:13:11


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gamgee wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:17:27


Post by: Galas


I actually like those changes Kanluwen.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:30:17


Post by: Gamgee


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:36:16


Post by: Fueli


Marker drones don't lose BS for firing markerlights anyway so I don't see the point for "attack markerlight drones".


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:44:09


Post by: Galas


 Gamgee wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.


Yeah, I'll like for the Tau Commanders and HQ to be more in the support role than in the combat monster one. Thats for Space Marines. Tau Commanders are good, ok, but they are much more valuable for their tactical habilities and knowledge.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 01:56:59


Post by: Kanluwen


 Fueli wrote:
Marker drones don't lose BS for firing markerlights anyway so I don't see the point for "attack markerlight drones".

It allows for differentiating between "Markerlights" for Pathfinders and Marker Drones and a cheaper, less efficient version that has shorter range but can benefit from the Drone Controller.

Think of something like Markerlights from Pathfinders and Marker Drones causing 2 Markerlight counters per hit if stationary while the "Attack" version only grants 1, whether or not they're stationary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gamgee wrote:

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.

Right now the "buffs" he provides are those of an Index character versus a full Codex character. It's also worth mentioning that he's far from terrible, considering that he can take wargear option that buffs up nearby units(Drone Controllers) and survivability buffs(Shield Generator and Stimulant Injector). Add to it that his big army-wide ability can be repeated in other turns and it's kind of a Big Deal.

We don't know exactly what or how his abilities will function come the Codex. Comparing him to "other armies" is pointless because of that and the fact that we do not know what <Sept> bonuses will be.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 10:32:33


Post by: BoomWolf


The tau commander doesn't need a nerf, he needs a redesign.

Because currently, it's a gun platform rather than a leader, leading directly to either the commander of the crisis being pointless, depending on who is more cost effective.

The best the commander can get, it to limit the gun choices, and in return give him actual auras.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 10:42:47


Post by: Gamgee


Tau one of the worst armies in 8th. Nothing but talks of nerfs on dakka. Ha. Funny funny stuff. He needs a rework once they fix the rest of the dex, but not a nerf. Not a redesign. He should be just as good and flexible of load out but not for spamming. There is zero reason to get rid of his load out flexibility once the rest of the dex is balanced properly and he is costed appropriately with it.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 16:02:47


Post by: Infantryman


BoomWolf wrote:The tau commander doesn't need a nerf, he needs a redesign.

Because currently, it's a gun platform rather than a leader, leading directly to either the commander of the crisis being pointless, depending on who is more cost effective.

The best the commander can get, it to limit the gun choices, and in return give him actual auras.


Well, if they want to go for that Gundam theme, a gunplatform leader probably is pretty spot on :p

Gamgee wrote:Tau one of the worst armies in 8th. Nothing but talks of nerfs on dakka. Ha. Funny funny stuff. He needs a rework once they fix the rest of the dex, but not a nerf. Not a redesign. He should be just as good and flexible of load out but not for spamming. There is zero reason to get rid of his load out flexibility once the rest of the dex is balanced properly and he is costed appropriately with it.


I don't think we're going to the same Dakka, then. One, precisely one, unit has been mentioned as needing a tone down, and by a small number of users. Everything else would need improvement in some way.

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 16:59:06


Post by: Martel732


Firewarriors need a points increase.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:04:24


Post by: Galas


Martel732 wrote:
Firewarriors need a points increase.


Sisters of Battle are 1 point more for +1 BS, +1 WS, +1 Save and I believe +1 L. They lose 1 S on their weapons and 6" range. Firewarriors are ok. Stop comparing every troop of the game with Tacticals.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:06:16


Post by: Martel732


Sisters need to cost more too.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:09:15


Post by: Galas


Wait. If Firewarriors are underpriced, Sisters of Battle are underpriced, Orks Boyz are balanced, Infantry and Conscripts are Underpriced, Dire Avengeres are now balanced, Guardians are good, Tempestus Scions are underpriced...

Maybe the problem is not with every other fething troop in the game, but with Tacticals Marines and comparing everyone with them? I don't know. Call me crazy.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:11:24


Post by: Martel732


Dakka has made it clear tacticals are fine.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:13:56


Post by: Galas


Whats happen to people that there can't be a thread on Dakkadakka that doesn't end in people complaining about Marines or Imperial Guard? This is a thread about Tau. Please, go to one of the 2-3 marine threads to talk about tacticals.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 17:18:27


Post by: tneva82


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What is going on here? There's a large amount of revisionist history in this thread -- 7th edition Tau were incredibly far above "mid-tier", in both casual and competitive games. In casual play, Tau had almost nothing that was suboptimal (Kroot were pretty bad, but even Vespids... man, I wish Tyranids had Vespids in 7th, I would've been thankful for them), and fire warriors and markerlights fried lesser codices without a need for the bigger suits (don't get me started on the bigger suits...). Tau didn't need Riptide Wings to table most of the have-nots. Then, in competitive, Tau were not the top army, but they had lots of high placings -- just because they weren't number 1 didn't keep them out of the top 8. Additionally, in tournaments that allowed the Ta'unar, they WERE busted -- I think before we talk about their 8th edition rules, we need to get this out of the way. Tau were REALLY strong in 7th, and that, in addition to their one-dimensional playstyle earned them a lot of salt from players (and I don't think that was undeserved).


Nah they were strong but not top-tier tournament winning list. That went to other lists. Eldar were beating tau silly and even Gladius was doing more regularly top tournament spots than Tau.

Riptide wings were good but since wraithknight was even more bonkers meta went so that everybody was tossing firepower to take out wraithknight and riptide went down even easier than that...And outside riptides they didn't have anything to aim tournament top spots.

They were not weak army like orks but hardly busted good. More like 4th/5th best faction.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/18 22:43:09


Post by: Martel732


Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 02:03:49


Post by: Kanluwen


Martel732 wrote:
Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.

You also think that Infantry and Conscripts are "SUPER good".


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 02:30:25


Post by: Wolfblade


Martel732 wrote:
Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.


According to you, everything that isn't a tactical is "super good" pretty much.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 02:37:03


Post by: GI_Redshirt


Martel we get it, any Space Marines (especially BA) is literally the worst unit ever created in the history of wargaming, while anything not Space Marines (especially Tau stuff) is obscenely broken and should be deleted from existence. You have made this abundantly clear in the "Space Marines are bad" thread. But if you're going to complain about Tau stuff, at least complain about the stuff that's actually good (Commanders and Gun Drones and the Y'Vahra). Not our baseline troops who honestly aren't that good (yes pulse weapons got a slight buff against T7+, but got a nerf against T3, the thing they're supposed to be good against).

At the very least keep the inaccurate whining to other threads rather than wasting time in this one.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 02:59:29


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


tneva82 wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What is going on here? There's a large amount of revisionist history in this thread -- 7th edition Tau were incredibly far above "mid-tier", in both casual and competitive games. In casual play, Tau had almost nothing that was suboptimal (Kroot were pretty bad, but even Vespids... man, I wish Tyranids had Vespids in 7th, I would've been thankful for them), and fire warriors and markerlights fried lesser codices without a need for the bigger suits (don't get me started on the bigger suits...). Tau didn't need Riptide Wings to table most of the have-nots. Then, in competitive, Tau were not the top army, but they had lots of high placings -- just because they weren't number 1 didn't keep them out of the top 8. Additionally, in tournaments that allowed the Ta'unar, they WERE busted -- I think before we talk about their 8th edition rules, we need to get this out of the way. Tau were REALLY strong in 7th, and that, in addition to their one-dimensional playstyle earned them a lot of salt from players (and I don't think that was undeserved).


Nah they were strong but not top-tier tournament winning list. That went to other lists. Eldar were beating tau silly and even Gladius was doing more regularly top tournament spots than Tau.

Riptide wings were good but since wraithknight was even more bonkers meta went so that everybody was tossing firepower to take out wraithknight and riptide went down even easier than that...And outside riptides they didn't have anything to aim tournament top spots.

They were not weak army like orks but hardly busted good. More like 4th/5th best faction.


What you're saying is pretty much the definition of a top-tier army -- maybe they couldn't quite hang with CWE (and I don't even know if I would concede that point), but they certainly were plenty competitive with those other top tier lists. Just saying -- Tau players have had what, 5 months of suboptimal choices. Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines and Guard have had decades of basement dwelling between them. I conceded that Tau are not in a great spot now, but it's revisionist history to say that they weren't blowing most lists away without breaking a sweat.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 03:11:20


Post by: Martel732


My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 06:11:52


Post by: Wolfblade


Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.


And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 07:50:49


Post by: Infantryman


 Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.


And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.


They're basic infantry. That's fine. What are you expecting?

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 07:55:14


Post by: Quickjager


 Brutallica wrote:
Well...
So by all means GW, nerf them even further when their codex arrives. Make EVERYTHING equally "worthless". Keep riptide where it is, so we know who plays for fun and cool units, and who plays...



No that would be dumb. And unfair.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 08:14:41


Post by: Wolfblade


 Infantryman wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.


And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.


They're basic infantry. That's fine. What are you expecting?

M.

My point wasn't that they're not unstoppable but that Martel is overlooking their flaws.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 13:08:44


Post by: Martel732


They're not as good as geq, but they are far closer to geq than meqs are. Those "flaws" aren't s bad in 8 man squads, especially the T3.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 13:44:33


Post by: Galas


T3 is worse agaisn't S3, S4, S6 and S7. Compared with T4.

Then, again, their gun has +1S and +6" range compared with other units of similar cost with a Bolter. But then, they hit on a +4, so they hit 25% less than models with +3BS. And in 8th, the difference between S4 and S5 is that S5 wounds on a +1 compared with S4: T4, T5, T8, T9, T10
If you are hitting T8 or better with your Firewarriors you are doing it wrong.

Yeah, they are much better at shooting than ork boyzs, for not much of a price difference... but yeah. They are Tau, what do you expect?


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 15:33:10


Post by: Martel732


Actually, the 90+ firewarrior list is quite good at chipping out T8.

Firewarriors are much better at shooting than nearly everything in practice.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 15:34:23


Post by: Kanluwen


Martel732 wrote:
Actually, the 90+ firewarrior list is quite good at chipping out T8.

Which Fire Warrior, Strike Teams or Breacher Teams?
What's the HQ?
Where's the Markerlight support?

You can't just keep throwing out ridiculous statements like this and not expect to get called out.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 15:44:07


Post by: Galas


Martel732 wrote:
Actually, the 90+ firewarrior list is quite good at chipping out T8.

Firewarriors are much better at shooting than nearly everything in practice.


90+ Firewarriors, plus support as Cadre Fireblades, etc... are nearly 1k points. Half of a 2k list. And they are still T3 models with a +4 save. (Yeah, 3+ in cover. Where do you put 100 models in cover?)

You are , as always, just chosing the good parts, ignoring the bad ones, to make they appear much more powerfull than what they really are.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 16:38:41


Post by: JNAProductions


Okay, little math on Fire Warriors vs. Marines. We'll assume they're at 15"-24" away, so they each get one shot, and we'll do both in cover and out of cover. Assume 10 Marines and 16 Fire Warriors.

In cover:

10 Marines fire 10 shots, hitting 20/3 times, wounding 40/9 times, and getting 40/27 unsaved wounds through. 1.48 Tau dead. 11.84 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors fire 16 shots, hitting 8 times, wounding 16/3 times, and getting 16/18 unsaved wounds through. .89 Marines dead. 11.57 points killed.

They're just about numerically equal, in cover. Out of cover, though:

10 Marines have the same math up until unsaved wounds. 40/18, or 2.22 dead Tau. 17.78 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors again have the same math until unsaved wounds, which grants 16/9 dead Marines. Which is 23.11 points. Fire Warriors come out ahead by a decent amount.

That being said, it's easier to put 10 Marines in cover than 16 Fire Warriors, and I wasn't accounting for chapter tactics or reroll auras, which are easier for Marines to get. Overall, though, they seem to perform similarly against each other.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:11:03


Post by: Kanluwen


 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, little math on Fire Warriors vs. Marines. We'll assume they're at 15"-24" away, so they each get one shot, and we'll do both in cover and out of cover. Assume 10 Marines and 16 Fire Warriors.

In cover:

10 Marines fire 10 shots, hitting 20/3 times, wounding 40/9 times, and getting 40/27 unsaved wounds through. 1.48 Tau dead. 11.84 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors fire 16 shots, hitting 8 times, wounding 16/3 times, and getting 16/18 unsaved wounds through. .89 Marines dead. 11.57 points killed.

They're just about numerically equal, in cover. Out of cover, though:

10 Marines have the same math up until unsaved wounds. 40/18, or 2.22 dead Tau. 17.78 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors again have the same math until unsaved wounds, which grants 16/9 dead Marines. Which is 23.11 points. Fire Warriors come out ahead by a decent amount.

That being said, it's easier to put 10 Marines in cover than 16 Fire Warriors, and I wasn't accounting for chapter tactics or reroll auras, which are easier for Marines to get. Overall, though, they seem to perform similarly against each other.

10 Marines is also a legal squad size while 16 Fire Warriors isn't.

This is where some of the silliness of these comparisons come from. You've used 16 Fire Warriors--Meaning a full squad and 3/5ths of a second squad to fire at 10 Marines.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:24:46


Post by: Xenomancers


If you actually build around fire warriors which anyone taking 90 of them is going to do. You are going to take 2 fireblades as HQ and you are also going to take enough pathfinders to ensure the primary target has 5 markers on it. If you can get 2 units with 5 markers on it the better. Pathfinders take pulse accelerator drones which increases the range of a pulse rifle by 6. Does this increase the range of rapid fire? IDK. In any case - the fire warriors are getting 3 str 5 shots at 15 inches and if the target has 5 markers its bs3+ rerolling 1's. I can attest this is devastating damage. When I play tau I only bring 30 fire warriors though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, little math on Fire Warriors vs. Marines. We'll assume they're at 15"-24" away, so they each get one shot, and we'll do both in cover and out of cover. Assume 10 Marines and 16 Fire Warriors.

In cover:

10 Marines fire 10 shots, hitting 20/3 times, wounding 40/9 times, and getting 40/27 unsaved wounds through. 1.48 Tau dead. 11.84 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors fire 16 shots, hitting 8 times, wounding 16/3 times, and getting 16/18 unsaved wounds through. .89 Marines dead. 11.57 points killed.

They're just about numerically equal, in cover. Out of cover, though:

10 Marines have the same math up until unsaved wounds. 40/18, or 2.22 dead Tau. 17.78 points killed.
16 Fire Warriors again have the same math until unsaved wounds, which grants 16/9 dead Marines. Which is 23.11 points. Fire Warriors come out ahead by a decent amount.

That being said, it's easier to put 10 Marines in cover than 16 Fire Warriors, and I wasn't accounting for chapter tactics or reroll auras, which are easier for Marines to get. Overall, though, they seem to perform similarly against each other.

10 Marines is also a legal squad size while 16 Fire Warriors isn't.

This is where some of the silliness of these comparisons come from. You've used 16 Fire Warriors--Meaning a full squad and 3/5ths of a second squad to fire at 10 Marines.

Fire warriors are often taken in 8 man squads. However - as long as the points are the same - there is nothing silly about it. You can legally place 2 8 mans in the exact fashion that a 16 man would have been placed.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:28:08


Post by: Galas


And that army is fragile as wet paper, and has 0 movility. Yeah, you can probably have 800 points in heavy support or movility but with how expensive are Tau, thats doesn't get you much if you are not spamming Commanders.

And I'm not saying thats a bad army per se. Fire Wariors are good. And with a proper strategy and investment they can put the pain in your enemy. But thats good. They have counter play and aren't underpriced. They are alongside Ork Boyz one of the more balanced troops in the game. Tau's are all about sinergy between the army components. "Kill the Markerlights" has always been the primary counter-play agaisn't Tau.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:32:48


Post by: Martel732


I've stated before our tables have a lot of cover, and not as much los blocking typically.

The reality is that there are no bad parts to horde shooting.

The counterplay isn't as obvious as you think it is, especially for marines.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:52:00


Post by: Kanluwen


 Xenomancers wrote:
If you actually build around fire warriors which anyone taking 90 of them is going to do.

This is Brigade levels of Fire Warriors, or multiple smaller Detachments.
You are going to take 2 fireblades as HQ and you are also going to take enough pathfinders to ensure the primary target has 5 markers on it. If you can get 2 units with 5 markers on it the better. Pathfinders take pulse accelerator drones which increases the range of a pulse rifle by 6. Does this increase the range of rapid fire? IDK.

Er no.
Realistically, if someone is committing to 9 squads of Strike Teams maxed out at 12 models(which gives you 108 Fire Warriors, not 90 so I'll ignore that for the remainder of the example) each as part of like a 2k point list?

You're going to have more than 2 Fireblades as HQs. You're going to be sitting on something like 4-5 Cadre Fireblades with some Ethereals spread out as well to ensure that you can get max coverage for Volley Fire and Storm of Fire(reroll hit rolls of 1s if you're stationary during the Movement phase) and/or Sense of Stone(Roll a D6 when suffering an unsaved Wound, 6s ignore the wound).

Also, Pulse Accelerator Drones increase the range of Carbines, Pistols, and Rifles by 6"...with the requirement that units have to be within 3" of the PAD. Rapid Fire is half the distance of the weapon. Half of 36" equals 18".
In any case - the fire warriors are getting 3 str 5 shots at 15 inches and if the target has 5 markers its bs3+ rerolling 1's. I can attest this is devastating damage. When I play tau I only bring 30 fire warriors though.

3 S5 AP0 shots at 15 inches, if stationary and if within 6" of a Cadre Fireblade.
The remainder is dependent upon you making at minimum 5 hits from a Pathfinder Squad using their Markerlights.

So just to be sure about this?
Your proposal is talking about, at minimum:
78 points for two Cadre Fireblades, with 6" auras(which is a laughable suggestion at best since with 90 Fire Warriors finding a spot where all 9 units are within 6" of the Fireblades is...lol. Just lol.).
720 points for 9 10 model Strike Teams.
144 points for 3 5 model Pathfinder Teams(remember: 3 points per Markerlight; the ML is almost as much as a Pathfinder by itself! 8 points per Pulse Accelerator Drone)
That is 942 points before any more Drones or wargear is added. That's also 9 Troop choices, 3 FA choices, and 2 HQs.

All of that has a 4+(Fireblades and Fire Warriors) or a 5+(Pathfinders) save outside of cover. They have zero way of pressing wounds that have an AP value as well or singling out characters.

Against infantry heavy Guard? Sure, I can see this working. It basically becomes an old world style musket match...but against anyone that has a decent armor save or can force negative modifiers for shooting?

It's going to get ripped apart piece by piece.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:58:23


Post by: Galas


Martel732 wrote:
I've stated before our tables have a lot of cover, and not as much los blocking typically.

The reality is that there are no bad parts to horde shooting.

The counterplay isn't as obvious as you think it is, especially for marines.


I have seen 0 Tau Firewarrior spam list in any kind of Tournament. I have seen many Space Marines. By your own metric and Xenomancers one I suppose that means Firewarrior sucks?

With how crowded the Firewarriors need to be to benefit from the Drones auras + The Fireblades Auras (Plus Cover if we asume they have cover because of course in this kind of mathhammer pornfests everything is perfect and ideal for the army we want to make appear as OP) any kind of meele list can just jump and consolidate with every meele unit charging and locking in meele a minimun of two Firewarriors Units. And yeah they can fall back and shoot at you. Unless you make half or more of their units fall back. Then they are death next turn.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 17:58:44


Post by: Kanluwen


Martel732 wrote:
I've stated before our tables have a lot of cover, and not as much los blocking typically.

That's YOUR problem. People have told you, repeatedly, in the past that your "tables" are pretty bad if there's tons of cover but not much LOS blocking.

The reality is that there are no bad parts to horde shooting.

Other than, y'know, the whole "hordes" part?

90 Fire Warriors isn't cheap, modelwise.

The counterplay isn't as obvious as you think it is, especially for marines.

It really is. Stop playing on crummy tables.

Also, take advantage of things that are in your army. I can set up a Raven Guard army that would fare pretty well against that Fire Warrior list.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 18:03:36


Post by: Martel732


 Galas wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I've stated before our tables have a lot of cover, and not as much los blocking typically.

The reality is that there are no bad parts to horde shooting.

The counterplay isn't as obvious as you think it is, especially for marines.


I have seen 0 Tau Firewarrior spam list in any kind of Tournament. I have seen many Space Marines. By your own metric and Xenomancers one I suppose that means Firewarrior sucks?

With how crowded the Firewarriors need to be to benefit from the Drones auras + The Fireblades Auras (Plus Cover if we asume they have cover because of course in this kind of mathhammer pornfests everything is perfect and ideal for the army we want to make appear as OP) any kind of meele list can just jump and consolidate with every meele unit charging and locking in meele a minimun of two Firewarriors Units. And yeah they can fall back and shoot at you. Unless you make half or more of their units fall back. Then they are death next turn.


Don't confuse me with Xenomancers here. Tournaments are too sparse and codices are coming out too quickly for that to be THE only thing. Yeah I've played both shooty marine lists and punchy ones against this list and it doesn't work the way you think it does. It goes south for the marines REALLY fast. Maybe I could list tailor and beat it.

They are cheap enough that they don't HAVE to have the auras to be utterly lethal. But sure, think whatever you want at this point. Cheap and/or undercosted shooting rules this game.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 18:56:25


Post by: Galas


To be honest I don't have a problem with Firewarriors costing 9ppm. Even costing the same as Sisters of Battle is fine by me. They don't are of the same army, and having a worse save and worse stats isn't as important as having a better gun and access to better sinergies for Tau at least. I firmly believe that Tau should be a fragile but long range shooting and movile (Not as movile as Eldar) force that has a high skill cap to play because is strenght comes from sinergies and supporting units with other units.

But as I said, taking Space Marines as the basis to balance everything else is a mistake at least in my opinion. Space Marines have terrible internal balance.

If Intercessors costed something like 18ppm, then they could be used as a balance point for everything else.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 20:24:16


Post by: Infantryman


Kanluwen wrote:
That's YOUR problem. People have told you, repeatedly, in the past that your "tables" are pretty bad if there's tons of cover but not much LOS blocking.


This is a criticism I have of my current local gaming place, as well as the ones I gamed in back in 3e/4e times. Table terrain was sparse and typically offered little real cover let alone anything approaching LOS blocking. Perused the table at the local Escalation League spot and it was much the same - maybe one table had something decent. It's almost like most gamers don't care, and that it speeds up gameplay...


Kanluwen wrote:
90 Fire Warriors isn't cheap, modelwise.


About $450 US (assuming you're still paying retail at this point), which isn't all that much. Doubly so if you don't buy it all at once. The bigger issue I guess is time you put into getting 90 troops looking decent for the table.

M.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 20:59:40


Post by: Martel732


I thought they were 8 ppm. 9 ppm sounds a bit better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also prefer low los blocking tables now that almost every indirect fire ig unit is undercosted. The gunline can't be engaged effectively on a high los blocking table. It autowin for the guard.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 21:12:26


Post by: GI_Redshirt


Martel732 wrote:
Actually, the 90+ firewarrior list is quite good at chipping out T8.

Firewarriors are much better at shooting than nearly everything in practice.


Are they though? I mean, 90 Fire Warriors beyond half range are going to deal 2.5 wounds to a T8 model with a 2+ save (90 shots, 45 hits on BS 4+, S5 against T8 wounds on 5+ resulting in 15 wounds, 2+ save means that 2.5 wounds go through). Even if you factor in support from Markerlights, Fireblades, and Ethereals, it doesn't change much. Fireblades and Ethereals only add firepower within half range, Ethereals Storm of Fire only works if you remain stationary and renders Markerlights redundant. So this list, whatever it might be (your point would really be helped if you actually included this list in full rather than just saying its really really good and we should totally just trust you on it), would end up being a list that is most effective within 15" but has next to no mobility, and relies entirely on weight of fire coming from models that are T3 with a 4+ shooting S5 AP0 shots.

I've stated before our tables have a lot of cover, and not as much los blocking typically.


As others have said, this is decidedly a problem for you and your group. Local metas or local ways of setting up tables cannot be taken into consideration when discussing the power of units nor codices. Set up your tables with less terrain, more LOS blocking terrain, or both.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 21:18:12


Post by: Martel732


As i said, i don't really want more los blocking stuff. It won't help. And it hurts a LOT vs ig.

Most t8 things only have 3+ armor and can't get cover.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 21:26:15


Post by: GI_Redshirt


Martel732 wrote:
As i said, i don't really want more los blocking stuff. It won't help. And it hurts a LOT vs ig.

Most t8 things only have 3+ armor and can't get cover.


Then don't complain about how good an army or a unit is at shooting. Simple as that. If you know what the solution is and refuse to implement it, you have lost your right to ever complain about the problem.

Some T8 things have 3+ saves, some have 2+ saves (there are these rare little models called Land Raiders, maybe you've heard of them before?). And they certainly can get cover, anything can claim cover if it is 50% or more obscured (considering you talk about how FWs, infantry, constantly have cover on your tables I'm assuming you play with a lot of ruins, and the rules for ruins specifically states that non-infantry models can claim cover as long as they are 50% or more obscured by the terrain). And even against a 3+ save, those same 90 FWs are doing 5 unsaved wounds a turn on average. Yeah its double the damage, but its still only 5 wounds a turn, most T8 models have enough wounds that they will laugh off that kinda damage output.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/19 21:32:34


Post by: Wolfblade


Martel732 wrote:
As i said, i don't really want more los blocking stuff. It won't help. And it hurts a LOT vs ig.

Most t8 things only have 3+ armor and can't get cover.


So... you refuse to fix a problem with YOUR GROUP'S table, therefore it's tau's fault? As everyone before me has stated, that's on you. Hell, do it army by army basis if you have to. IG? Less LoS blocking cover. Tau? Add some more. Group won't agree to it? Stop playing with TFGs who are looking to just wipe the floor with a weaker army and aren't interested in a fun game for both sides.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/20 00:47:43


Post by: Vector Strike


At this point, this guy became a Traditio, but chimping out at Tau instead of AM. Stop falling for his bait.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/20 07:11:08


Post by: BoomWolf


But I'm bored and he makes it easy to feel smart...


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/20 14:36:16


Post by: Vector Strike


 BoomWolf wrote:
But I'm bored and he makes it easy to feel smart...


lol

anyway, let's see what the chapter approved book will bring. some new shenanigans could immensely help Tau in the actual situation


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/20 14:41:55


Post by: BoomWolf


There won't be any new shenanigans.

Point changes yes, and many units CAN be salvaged with a point fix, but core issues like the markerlight being both mandatory and completely redundant due to overlaps with suit systems you really can't afford not to take.

But CA won't have any new rules beyond maybe giving us one sept tactics and one relic.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/22 04:37:15


Post by: Colonel Cross


I play guard and my best bud plays Tau. It was rough for him when I played fluffy index lists. I haven't played him since the codex dropped. I was thinking of giving him 500 more points than me to make it an interesting game. What do you guys think we can do to have an exciting game? I was also thinking of some home brew scenario. Where I have an armored column and he ambushes me on 3 sides and I have to get off the far side of the board.


So how are Tau doing this edition? @ 2017/11/22 14:22:48


Post by: Bharring


Keep a Guard unit in a Chimera near your backfield? Drop his least favorite unit to see, and bring something else?

It depends on how fluffy or competitive he is. If he's competitive, you'll need to quantify a handicap if your army is simply stronger. If he's more fluffy, find a fluffy reason to keep part of our forces out of position or make some bad listbuilding decisions.

Does he love listbuilding, tabletop strategery, or cool battles most? If it's listbuilding, that's going to be hard. If it's tabletop strategy, make a worse list yourself. If it's cool battles, suboptimal tactical decisions that just look cool are the best way to go.

Having played CWE through an OP dex, a bonkers OP dex, and now a strong dex, and playing in a noncompetitive meta, I've had the same problem. I started CWE to do Mechdar, but then Serpent Spam happened. Pivoted to an Aspect Host, then the 7E dex hit making my 1500 list 1427 - while making every unit stronger. Now I need to add a tank or two to make that list 1250.

How I make it fun for the other guy varies. Against some people, I drop in my Hawks on an upper ridge and surround a force, and have a scenic shootout. Others, the best way to give them fun is to embark some unit early and never let them out of their transport. Against others, I need to list tailor. Even different players with the same codex require different strategies. And, of course, against some players I needn't tone it down at all.

If you slough some forces against a tabletop-strategy focused player, they will feel cheated. Don't do that.

If you intentionally build poorly against a listbuilder fanatic, they'll hate it.

If you set up a specific points handicap against a fluffy player, they may feel dirty.

What to do really depends on what your friend wants.