Spoilers for Devastation of Baal and some DA stuff as well.
Spoiler:
There is internal strive between the new DA Primaris and the Inner Circle. I doubt Primaris will end up on the losing side being the new GW poster boys. Meanwhile, Devastation of Baal sees about 8 or 9 BA successors die off, BA reduced to 300 members, all named characters being alive however, Dante being made Commander of Imperium Nihilus (northern side of the Rift), but it also says that Primaris BA show no signs of the Red Thirst. It was also mentioned that Cawl fixed the Canis Helix, meaning no Primaris Wulfen or wolf-like mutations.
While GW may go back on that, the image that exists right now is that the majority of BA and SW are Primaris and have literally nothing that makes them stand out compared to UM and DA being at odds with the Primaris. Could this be indicative of the future that the legacy of the Primarchs will be moved to the background with the classic Marines in order to make way for a homogenous Primaris army, making them truly Stormcasts of 40k? For those who don't know, even though there are plenty of interesting Stormhosts, all use the same rules, aka vanilla Stormcasts, and the only two named characters are of that vanilla Stormhost.
And finally there is the fact that there are no named Primaris models and most unique characters are made from resin. Resin will die sooner or later, but will GW ever do releases for classic Marines? We have no official fluff source stating an upgrade from Marine to Primaris is possible, outside of a facebook post, which probably was a PR move to calm down marauding Marine fans.
In light of that development, do you think GW is truly moving to a homogenous SM army, leaving the different flavours behind, or is the "New GW" more clever that one could anticipate and bring those legacies back in their full glory?
I think (fear? Probably still the wrong word, but still) that GW is, together with the slow but inevitable phase-out of the old marine kits, marching towards a more homogenous Adeptus Astartes, especially since the options for single Primaris units and characters now are very limited, to say the least.
I myself may be a bit biased since I adore the old marines (both fluff as well as model-wise), but I always thought that the Primaris (right now) are... completely... bland and boring. Apart from no options, there are also some very iconic units missing, like bikes, or Landspeeder. Assault Marines as well (guess Interceptors could be an alternative, but still) and, of course, tanks. I hope that if all marines are eventually replaced by Primaris, there will at least be Primaris bikes, Landspeeders as well as tanks. Veterans too.
If not, how will the different chapters look like? White Scars without bikes (or Revenwing for that matter)? Salamanders whose only flame-based weapons are Aggressors? Disciplined Wolves (shuddering)? It may balance-wise be favorable, but man, I think it would be boring as hell! One thing aside: I hate that Cawl just managed to magically cure all geneseed-mutations such as the the Wulfen-stuff. Also, I always thought of the Red Thirst more of a psychic problem instead of a geneseed problem. It is just unneccesary... That is stuff that has been there for ages! Blood Angels without Death Company?
I get that feeling as well, sadly. They seem to be so dead set to push Primaris that they're going to make all astartes be them, which in one way is good since Marines have way too many books, but it also removes the differences.
However mark my words you will never see another non-Primaris marine release from GW ever again. I am absolutely certain that Primaris are the replacement for the regular Marines (although it still won't happen for several years) and were going to be an "upscaled" replacement that they made an addition to avoid the massive backlash.
Wayniac wrote: I get that feeling as well, sadly. They seem to be so dead set to push Primaris that they're going to make all astartes be them, which in one way is good since Marines have way too many books, but it also removes the differences.
However mark my words you will never see another non-Primaris marine release from GW ever again. I am absolutely certain that Primaris are the replacement for the regular Marines (although it still won't happen for several years) and were going to be an "upscaled" replacement that they made an addition to avoid the massive backlash.
Agreed. I like Primaris, mainly because they are what a Marine was supposed to be in size and stats. I also like the vanilla Marine. This was what drew me into 40k way back then. However, doing it at the expense of the fluff instead of building on it is wrong.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
^what he said.
The background for these chapters has gone increasingly from interesting flavor to hamfisted parody, turning theme into farce. If GW is toning these things down, that doesn't bother me terribly much, they've abused the fluff for these chapters and they really do need some fixing.
The homogenization of marine fluff is simply in character with about everything else GW creates boiled down in 5 easy steps:
Step 1) begin with good concept
Step 2) attempt to milk good concept
Step 3) add bloat and dreck to concept
Step 4) fail to realize what made original concept worthwhile
Step 5) change original concept in futile attempt to fix it
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel the opposite. BA, SW and DA are very good looking armies that can also be customized, and IMHO are the only chapters that should exist. Maybe with black templars also but with grey knights, inquisition, SoB we've got too many crusaders and similar things.
Vanilla marines and all the other standard dull chapters should be phased out.
Since the release of the Primaris marines and their horribly devised story, I have been afraid that they would eventually become the stormcasts of 40k. If that happens I will probably just stop playing. And I agree with Wayniac that there will probably never be another regular marine model release. Very sad.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel the opposite. BA, SW and DA are very good looking armies that can also be customized, and IMHO are the only chapters that should exist. Maybe with black templars also but with grey knights, inquisition, SoB we've got too many crusaders and similar things.
Vanilla marines and all the other standard dull chapters should be phased out.
Apparently Horus Heresey has been pretty successful for GW, and it's basically vanilla marines vs more vanilla marines.
SW, BA and DAimo have too much "character" for their own good.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everything to such a massive degree.
This. The moronic gimicks attached to those chapters have made them impossible to take seriously, so I'm totally down with with them slowly being removed from history.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel for marine chapters losing some of their uniqueness but this absolutely applies. It's gotten a bit out of hand just how far these chapters have gone with their gimmicks. It's getting to the point where you can't even hardly make successor chapters out of some of these chapters bits because they are so ridiculously over the top. And the names! Emprah I don't understand how people can read some of that without laughing. For example
Space Wolves have viking bits, odd priest and runes, maybe a pet wolf or two, cool, I can dig it
Space wolves riding wolves into battle, having santa's sleigh, and their naming convention as https://youtu.be/ihskUz0obzY?t=18m59s (warning language) is getting to the point where it's just a blatant parody of itself. It's not even like they had to make up names for that bit, they basically just picked up a codex and started rattling off unit names.
This goes for the other two chapters as well, but their naming conventions aren't as hilariously blatant as the Space Wolves are at least.
As for the whole Primaris meaning we'll never get another normal marine release again, I wouldn't be so sure. We never got a horus heresy Mark VI beaky box and let's be honest here, that's GW's "break glass in emergency" fallback plan. They know horus heresy is a cash cow with the grogs and they will continue to milk that for all it's worth, Mark VI being the obvious next step, possibly with a plastic old style rhino or something. But yeah we're probably not going to see any regular marine models getting released for 40k again unless GW decides to do something actually interesting and say have a rebellion between Primaris and original marine forces.
I prefer Dan Abnett interpretation of the Space Wolves where the Great Wolf Logan Grimmar is the High King, the Wolf Lords are referred as Jarls. Wolf Guards are the "Thanes" ,etc... and they don't even call themselves Space Wolves but Vlka Fenryka, that translates to something like "People of Fenris". Heck, even "The Fang" isn't called that way by the Space Wolves, is called the Aett, that means "Home of the Clan". Is the other people that aren't Space Wolves that call them "Wolf X" for everything.
I think thats cool. A little xenophobic, but it fits in the setting.
"Yeah, this is my ancient sword, Négling, a ancient relict of the chapter, forged in the time previous to the great heresy for the greatest artisans of our Great Company and..."
"Shut up about your ... Frost Blade, you Wolf Lord. When is gonna your Stormwolf come to pick us and your Thunder Wolves?"
"I hate you"
Gotta agree. The background is what makes most Chapters unique on top of a visual style. But the Blood, Wolf and Dark has definitely been taken too far with artificially enforced 'flaws' that really do not need to be taken to such an extreme. We humans are flawed enough as it is and those flaws are much more insidious than bit more hair or the occasional bloodlust.
Having said that, what I really enjoy about the different Chapters are the unique units. They add flavour and diversity to the table. I wouldn't be too sad to see the different SM codices go just to consolidate the power armoured mess we got here, as long as the background remains and maybe a few named characters and unique units. Roll BA, DA and SW into C:SMBT style.
Though since Primaris are the new thing, guess we will all be playing UM soon enough unless GW gets something done with the other Chapters outside of Stratagems and Psychic Powers.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
^what he said.
The background for these chapters has gone increasingly from interesting flavor to hamfisted parody, turning theme into farce. If GW is toning these things down, that doesn't bother me terribly much, they've abused the fluff for these chapters and they really do need some fixing.
I agree here, but I do lament the loss of the classic grimdarkness that gets washed out with the cringe-worthy flanderisation. But that's more of a 40k thing in general, and not just a space marine thing.
GW as of late has fallen into a classic literary trap, not realizing that it is the flaws they are rushing to eliminate that make those chapters (and marines in general) interesting.
Primaris are too perfect. Like a mathematically precise ice sculpture of a perfect sphere, accurate to 1/1000th of an inch. While it might catch the eye at first, it is soon ignored in favor of the less perfect handheld chainsaw hacked collection who's inherent flaws draw your eye to new facets of the design with every second.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel for marine chapters losing some of their uniqueness but this absolutely applies. It's gotten a bit out of hand just how far these chapters have gone with their gimmicks. It's getting to the point where you can't even hardly make successor chapters out of some of these chapters bits because they are so ridiculously over the top. And the names! Emprah I don't understand how people can read some of that without laughing. For example
Space Wolves have viking bits, odd priest and runes, maybe a pet wolf or two, cool, I can dig it
Space wolves riding wolves into battle, having santa's sleigh, and their naming convention as https://youtu.be/ihskUz0obzY?t=18m59s (warning language) is getting to the point where it's just a blatant parody of itself. It's not even like they had to make up names for that bit, they basically just picked up a codex and started rattling off unit names.
This goes for the other two chapters as well, but their naming conventions aren't as hilariously blatant as the Space Wolves are at least.
As for the whole Primaris meaning we'll never get another normal marine release again, I wouldn't be so sure. We never got a horus heresy Mark VI beaky box and let's be honest here, that's GW's "break glass in emergency" fallback plan. They know horus heresy is a cash cow with the grogs and they will continue to milk that for all it's worth, Mark VI being the obvious next step, possibly with a plastic old style rhino or something. But yeah we're probably not going to see any regular marine models getting released for 40k again unless GW decides to do something actually interesting and say have a rebellion between Primaris and original marine forces.
IIRC, the Max Wolfyness you could have on a Space Wolf character has actually been in decline since the first codex where thunderwolves were theoretically implemented (and didn't have models).
You used to be able to have a Wolf Lord of the wolf with two wolves on a wolf with two wolf claws and a wolfenstone with a wolftooth necklace.
In 7th, you could get a wolf lord with two wolves a wolf claw the fangsword of the deathwolf either on or in a (storm)wolf.
Now you're down to wolf lord on a wolf with wolf claws.
WE'RE LOSING WOLF FAST BOYS WE NEED OUR CHARACTER BACK STAT.
I remember perusing some of the GW stuff some years back, after not having played for some time and finding those Wolfy Wolf Wolves. Cringed myself right away.
Formosa wrote: Ok blood angels and space wolves i can understand? but what are the stupid gimicks of dark angels?
They don't have one. Internet memes about Dark Angels being very very dark, edgy, emo and nearly traitorus. As much as the internet hyperbole try to put them in the same level as Blood Angels and Space Wolves they aren't in the same league.
Like Salamanders they have their own style and personality without that totally surpasing everything else. The Flanderisation isn't as heavy as with the other two big chapters.
Do you want Dark Angels Flanderised at Space Wolves levels? Guardians of the Covenant.
Personally, I like the overtop-ness of Blood Angels and Space Wolves and I'm a big fan of the Santa Grimnar Sleigh. Although, I do understand why people don't like it.
I think Primaris are absolutely destroying the image of Space Marines. The whole point was that they were flawed. The irony of needing a demi-god to create a breed of post-humans to defend humanity because they can't do it themselves. And yet being so flawed that they become the thing that eventually will destroy humanity itself.
Primaris are way too clean, and high tech for 40K. They don't belong. Just like Tau.
The Intercessor models themselves are fine, and if GW just said "hey, we're re-doing the SM line in true scale" I'd be fine with it. But they introduced all this new fluff, added all this technology that isn't supposed to exist anymore. It simply does not fit. This is 40K, it's Fantasy in space, not Sci-fi. Give them chainswords and power fists, get them dirty and grimdark.
Keep technology out of 40K! This is the Dark Millennium, not the Renaissance Millennium.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Personally, I like the overtop-ness of Blood Angels and Space Wolves and I'm a big fan of the Santa Grimnar Sleigh. Although, I do understand why people don't like it.
I think Primaris are absolutely destroying the image of Space Marines. The whole point was that they were flawed. The irony of needing a demi-god to create a breed of post-humans to defend humanity because they can't do it themselves. And yet being so flawed that they become the thing that eventually will destroy humanity itself.
Primaris are way too clean, and high tech for 40K. They don't belong. Just like Tau.
The Intercessor models themselves are fine, and if GW just said "hey, we're re-doing the SM line in true scale" I'd be fine with it. But they introduced all this new fluff, added all this technology that isn't supposed to exist anymore. It simply does not fit. This is 40K, it's Fantasy in space, not Sci-fi. Give them chainswords and power fists, get them dirty and grimdark.
Keep technology out of 40K! This is the Dark Millennium, not the Renaissance Millennium.
Yeah tbh the aspect of the marines I actually like is the techno-barbarian sort of Jack Vance/Yor The Hunter From The Future feel where they've got this technology and they just have no idea what it does or the way to use it but GOD DAMN are they going to smash something in the head with it.
Space Wolves are up in my top three chapters for exactly that reason. Complain about the wolf wolfyness all you like, there is something flatly glorious about a bunch of medieval space barbarians who think that the space marines are valkyries coming to take them to Valhalla. I also recently did a paint commission on some Dark Angels and loved the fact that behind all the statuary and gilding on the Darkshroud there's this little rusty beat-up broken space gizmo, and you know that's the only functional part of the whole damn thing.
Honestly, this is probably wishful thinking on my part, but I'm hoping all of this is going to build up to an internal conflict akin to the Horus Heresy. Not to create a new faction, mind you, but a way to create primaris chaos marines. In my heart of hearts, what I'm hoping is that resentment and distrust keeps building between primaris and vanilla, with primaris seeing vanilla as flawed and vanilla seeing primaris as too inflexible. How delicious would it be if the ultramarines of all people starting criticizing the primaris for being too by-the-book?
I highly doubt GW is going to phase out vanilla marines completely, and I especially doubt they're going to get rid of unique traits for marines. They're going to be extremely hesitant to mess with anything that affects marketability, and the fact that SM factions have unique traits makes them extremely markettable.
The name calling on SW's behalf is abit...meh.. I really like how they do it in Horus Heresy. Way more awsome and viking'esque. I love the Wulfen, but the name is... There is defenetly better options than wulfen wulfy.
Also Logan Grimnar on Sled is so stupid, i REALLY liked that lord, but now he is just feels like a joke (his rules are a joke but, but thats another story). I dont even know what to do with the sled, i cant see any possible way of using it, execpt if i made a giant mead hall scenery or something...but im not. Btw wolves are not sled dogs, it kills the whole "free spirited beats, doing their thing" turning them into "domesticated work breed". Same goes for TWC, never really liked them much either. Wanna be freind with a wolf, be the leader, thrive together (Leman Russ wolves are perfect), dont humiliate them into a donky.
It's still possible to condense all ten chapters into one book whilst retaining a slight level of individuality. A chapter tactic and warlord trait for each one, their own stratagems and relics...hell, you could probably still fit the more unique physic powers in as well. Like the Librarian could choose either Unleash Rage, Storm Caller or Mind Worm (chapter dependent) instead of one of the main table powers. It would be a shame to lose the individuality of the individual books but regardless of that I think that GW is aiming to bring them all under one banner with the Primaris marines being front and center. And once that begins there's no going back.
I just read what I think is a passage from Devastation of Baal where Dante and Seth are talking about the primaris, and Dante is basically completely cucked by Guilliman and saying they are our salvation because they aren't flawed, and Seth goes all meta and points out that without the flaws, they aren't of Sanguinius' lineage and will basically be Ultramarines wearing red armor, and that primaris aren't salvation but replacement.
Which is absolutely what GW seems to want to do. The primaris are perfect; they have no flaws of any kind that distinguish them from any other. They're scrubbing all the flaws that made the legions unique. They are literal mary sues.
Wayniac wrote: I just read what I think is a passage from Devastation of Baal where Dante and Seth are talking about the primaris, and Dante is basically completely cucked by Guilliman and saying they are our salvation because they aren't flawed, and Seth goes all meta and points out that without the flaws, they aren't of Sanguinius' lineage and will basically be Ultramarines wearing red armor, and that primaris aren't salvation but replacement.
Which is absolutely what GW seems to want to do. The primaris are perfect; they have no flaws of any kind that distinguish them from any other. They're scrubbing all the flaws that made the legions unique. They are literal mary sues.
They appear to be knowledging that not everybody in the setting likes Primaris, at least in the novels. This new novel for Dark Angels works the same. They basically don't want Primaris near them or the secrets of the Inner Circle, and the new primaris Dark Angels are like "Dude wtf we are here to help".
I only hope that this is not the case of putting all the "Omg primaris suck" sentiment into a character to then reveal he is the bad one, and if you are a good servant of the emperor you'll accept Primaris with open arms.
Wayniac wrote: I just read what I think is a passage from Devastation of Baal where Dante and Seth are talking about the primaris, and Dante is basically completely cucked by Guilliman and saying they are our salvation because they aren't flawed, and Seth goes all meta and points out that without the flaws, they aren't of Sanguinius' lineage and will basically be Ultramarines wearing red armor, and that primaris aren't salvation but replacement.
Which is absolutely what GW seems to want to do. The primaris are perfect; they have no flaws of any kind that distinguish them from any other. They're scrubbing all the flaws that made the legions unique. They are literal mary sues.
They appear to be knowledging that not everybody in the setting likes Primaris, at least in the novels. This new novel for Dark Angels works the same. They basically don't want Primaris near them or the secrets of the Inner Circle, and the new primaris Dark Angels are like "Dude wtf we are here to help".
I only hope that this is not the case of putting all the "Omg primaris suck" sentiment into a character to then reveal he is the bad one, and if you are a good servant of the emperor you'll accept Primaris with open arms.
That seems to be precisely what they're going to do.
Wayniac wrote: I just read what I think is a passage from Devastation of Baal where Dante and Seth are talking about the primaris, and Dante is basically completely cucked by Guilliman and saying they are our salvation because they aren't flawed, and Seth goes all meta and points out that without the flaws, they aren't of Sanguinius' lineage and will basically be Ultramarines wearing red armor, and that primaris aren't salvation but replacement.
Which is absolutely what GW seems to want to do. The primaris are perfect; they have no flaws of any kind that distinguish them from any other. They're scrubbing all the flaws that made the legions unique. They are literal mary sues.
They appear to be knowledging that not everybody in the setting likes Primaris, at least in the novels. This new novel for Dark Angels works the same. They basically don't want Primaris near them or the secrets of the Inner Circle, and the new primaris Dark Angels are like "Dude wtf we are here to help".
I only hope that this is not the case of putting all the "Omg primaris suck" sentiment into a character to then reveal he is the bad one, and if you are a good servant of the emperor you'll accept Primaris with open arms.
That seems to be precisely what they're going to do.
Interesting read. So in future SM chapters with their primaris dudes will be like soccer clubs. Different jerseys will be the only things that helps to differentiate them. In one year they might fight for the Dark Angels chapter but if they think red would suit them more they will fight with Dante.
I hope not. Well, I guess the coming Blood- and Dark Angels codices will be a pretty good indication whether or not they'll remain worth playing and collecting, at least for the next couple of years.
I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
That's a bit... far-fetched. Still if something like that happens I guess I'll just have my Space Wolves go renegade, play them with World Eater rules and take my revenge on those Imperial scumbags
The distinction between the Primaris and non-primaris is awkward. Now the chapters have had the ability to create their own Primaris marines over hundred years, so I'd assume any suspicions about them would have been already resolved and phasing out of the old type of marines would be progressing in fast pace. Pretty much any marine younger than a century would be a Primaris (even assuming that the news about being able to upgrade existing marines into Primaris was false.) But it doesn't make sense that this would affect how the chapters organise their units. Are Primaris marines somehow genetically unable to hold a lascannon or a power axe? I'd imagine that for example Space Wolves would be like 'Now all our marines can be like Ranulf the Strong, cool!" but then continue to equip and organise their units the way they've always done.
Martel732 wrote: I hate primaris. They have terrible rules. Models are pretty good, nothing special. Every primaris list I've seen hit the table loses. Badly.
I mostly like Primaris rules, I just wish they had more customisation options. They may be a tad overcosted, but they are individually powerful on the table, so they actually feel like elite super soldiers.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.
Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.
You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.
Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.
You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.
Hrm, I would question this analogy. First, many of the chapters in question are ostensibly Codex adherent in the first place (Dark Angels and Blood Angels and their successors). Second, for the most part, they all share the same equipment (a Space Wolf predator and an Ultramarines Predator or a Dark Angels predator are all the exact same vehicle, a Baal predator has a simple weapon swap and a souped up engine but is otherwise identical, they all wear the same Marks of power armor, their Boltguns are all largely the same, etc), and all have insanely huge logistic requirements for even the smallest of operations and build everything on similar patterns. Third, at least with Space Marine chapters, we're talking about a very small number of very small fighting forces that don't really have separate branches, that can take years or decades to replace even the most trivial of losses and take years, centuries or millenia for changes in equipment or doctrine or whatnot to filter through.
Really, for the most part, comparing Space Marine chapters is much more akin to comparing two different special operations groups within the same military than comparing vastly different national militaries.
^although many of their founders had differing philosophies, and there's been thousands of years since of independent operation. Imo it's a bit miraculous that they're so similar. Chalk it up to the strictness/religious adherence to the codex for most Chapters, maybe.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
It is funny how attitudes change over a short period of time. Just a few months ago a lot of people would fight me tooth and nail about the notion of SM being eventually replaced by primaris. Nowadays it is a well accepted truth.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Spoiler:
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel the opposite. BA, SW and DA are very good looking armies that can also be customized, and IMHO are the only chapters that should exist. Maybe with black templars also but with grey knights, inquisition, SoB we've got too many crusaders and similar things.
Vanilla marines and all the other standard dull chapters should be phased out.
I feel exactly this, it doesn't get enough attention. If there were three space marine books and none of them were vanilla, then space wolves etc could be sane and not caricatured, because there wouldn't be a generic middle option that they have to distance themselves from. I actually really like the idea of space wolf intercessors who are just as they are now, except with, idk, chain bayonets. They are well trained professionals, they just happen to have a mythology and cult of ferocity and atavism.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.
I feel the opposite. BA, SW and DA are very good looking armies that can also be customized, and IMHO are the only chapters that should exist. Maybe with black templars also but with grey knights, inquisition, SoB we've got too many crusaders and similar things.
Vanilla marines and all the other standard dull chapters should be phased out.
Apparently Horus Heresey has been pretty successful for GW, and it's basically vanilla marines vs more vanilla marines.
And I think that's actually because there is no such thing as a flat vanilla list, at least not in the wild. Everyone (putatively) has unique units and replacements for the normal option, everyone has special rules. They just also have a very central common culture. The "codex" should be an invisible middle ground that everything alludes to and sometimes have a slightly distorted take on.
Crimson wrote: The distinction between the Primaris and non-primaris is awkward. Now the chapters have had the ability to create their own Primaris marines over hundred years, so I'd assume any suspicions about them would have been already resolved and phasing out of the old type of marines would be progressing in fast pace. Pretty much any marine younger than a century would be a Primaris (even assuming that the news about being able to upgrade existing marines into Primaris was false.) But it doesn't make sense that this would affect how the chapters organise their units. Are Primaris marines somehow genetically unable to hold a lascannon or a power axe? I'd imagine that for example Space Wolves would be like 'Now all our marines can be like Ranulf the Strong, cool!" but then continue to equip and organise their units the way they've always done.
That's the way in which I could dig Space Wolves (gonna talk just about SW here because I play them) going all Primaris. Have them have Primaris units with their own distinct Space Wolf flavor and equipment; Versatile, strong in CC and on the ground but a bit weaker at long range and in the air than Codex Astartes marines. I'd love them to have stuff like dedicated CC Agressors and a sword 'n board Redemptor dread, but I definitely would not like it if they were to become a footnote in the Space/ Ultramarines codex.
Mr Morden wrote: Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:
Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets
Ughh
I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everything to such a massive degree.
This. The moronic gimicks attached to those chapters have made them impossible to take seriously, so I'm totally down with with them slowly being removed from history.
says the guy with the Ultramarine avatar which is literally the most boring chapter that could do with phasing out. The background to the alternative chapters like the Angels and Wolves are the last bastion of what makes marines interesting. The Primaris are mostly terrible but I do like the dread.
Brutallica wrote: The name calling on SW's behalf is abit...meh.. I really like how they do it in Horus Heresy. Way more awsome and viking'esque. I love the Wulfen, but the name is... There is defenetly better options than wulfen wulfy.
Also Logan Grimnar on Sled is so stupid, i REALLY liked that lord, but now he is just feels like a joke (his rules are a joke but, but thats another story). I dont even know what to do with the sled, i cant see any possible way of using it, execpt if i made a giant mead hall scenery or something...but im not. Btw wolves are not sled dogs, it kills the whole "free spirited beats, doing their thing" turning them into "domesticated work breed". Same goes for TWC, never really liked them much either. Wanna be freind with a wolf, be the leader, thrive together (Leman Russ wolves are perfect), dont humiliate them into a donky.
Put him on a flyer stand and place him over your Nativity scene around Christmas.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.
Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.
You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.
It's more akin to if we had a game about all the armies on earth, but half of them were variants of the US military, like we had a codex for army, marines, paratroopers, delta force, Seal Team 6 etc, and every other country considered themselves lucky to get a single book.
That's what the whole situation with marines is like. Even Chaos, a faction that is constantly stated to be made up of all types of people from lowly cultists, to traitor guard, to chaos tech priests to daemon lords,to even entire species of xenos, is about 2/3 space marines units, and if you go by codex 3 of the 4 are dominated by chaos marine options. Yet there are no chaos admech, no chaos guard, no renegades. That's why people aren't really shedding tears at the thought of space marines getting consolidated into a single book, at most 3 (I can see a legitimate reason for Grey Knights to be part of an Inquisition style dex along with deathwatch and space wolves getting their own codex just because they've completely gone off the rails in terms of wolf stuff). Black Templar got folded in after all, and they're not even codex compliant like blood angels and Dark Angels are! Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? And to add to that, how come White Scars aren't unique enough to get their own codex? How about Imperial Fists? Those are first founding chapters with just as much clout as the others, how come they don't get their own codexes?
For example, IG has way more diversity in how their various regiments and planets can be outfitted and fight than the space marines can ever hope to be. We can have regiments entirely made up of feral tribesman armed with bows and muskets, to high tech regiments in carapace armor with hellguns, mentioned time and again in the lore with rich traditions and backgrounds. We have entire paratrooper regiments, siege regiments, armored regiments, artillery regiments, mechanized regiments, cavalry regiments, and countless more formations that number in the thousands to the hundreds of thousands, cranked out by the dozen every year. On top of that any given planet can put out a wide variety of regiment types from infantry to tanks to horsemen armed with lances. How come we don't have 8 different codexes with fringe units and options? Because 95% of it can be represented with a basic codex with the fringe options covered by forgeworld, and a few options in the book like regiment traits, relics, warlord traits, etc. This is the situation Space Marines should be in. I know people don't like to admit it, but the vast majority of the special chapters out there can easily be represented by a few special units, their heroes, and a few unique traits in a single combined book. It's getting a bit ridiculous that warhammer claims to have this massively varied game yet literally half of all the codexes and books out there are either marines or chaos marines. Blood Angels for example really aren't much different to Space Marines as say DKOK are compared to Imperial Guard. Why do they need their own codex as opposed to a basic 40k codex and some cool Forgeworld options?
"But what does it matter? It's not like it hurts the game." Ok, so we're in 8th edition now. How many codexes are NOT about marines? Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Eldar, Admech, and maybe Daemons if they get out in time. Now how many space marines? Space marines, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, Death Guard, Blood Angels, and Dark angels. That's 5 non marines to 6 marines. Had the marines been consolidated into say 2 books, that's 4 more entirely unique and diverse armies we could've already had up and running. That's your orks, Necrons, Tau, and Dark Eldar, all far more varied armies all ready to go in a 6 months time. The stupid amount of space marines codexes we have right now has been hurting the game for years and has partly been why we've never seen a full codex line revamp for an edition. It eats up a ton of time and resources that could've been put into things like revamping the Sisters line, getting traitor IG and admech out, updating outdated sprues like the majority of the IG infantry, etc. And they have more excuse for being consolidated than anyone else. How many other armies can you completely revamp with a single upgrade sprue like space marines? I can't take Cadians and make them vostroyans with a simple upgrade sprue, but you can bet I can take any space marine model and doll it up to be blood angels with their upgrade sprue. And on top of that, think about how many kits all these variant space marine chapters need. Your average store isn't going to have that much room, and even a GW store is fairly small. With the amount of unique space marine things we have, about half the store is taken up by some form of power armor. This means actually new armies don't get released or get shelf space since after all, where are you supposed to put the new Sisters of Battle army when half the store is taken up by space marines?
So... yeah, sorry to rant but the absolutely bonkers amount of space marine codexes has annoyed me for a long time. I was hoping the Black Templar being rolled into space marines was the sign things were changing but alas that wasn't to be. I'd prefer GW didn't try to softball it in by just saying the chapters lost their individuality because of Primaris, I wish they'd just rip the bandaid off and say "sorry, we should've had the variant chapters put back in the main codex like this years ago." It would help the health of the game immensely and give the potential for so much variety to come back to the game. There's especially little excuse when the IG codex proved you can have several radically different forces able to be built from a single book with just a few tweaks, so it's not even like GW can claim the various chapters need their own books to keep their individuality.
Personally I've never understood the vitriol between different players directed at other's armies. I love the SW and BA fluff, as well as the DA. I love the fact that they're different. When the game came out there was a sense of mystery and excitement about the different chapters. I for one hope they never lose their unique qualities.
I am also not a fan of primaris, at all. At least not how they've been presented. That being said, I'm all for people being excited for the units. To each their own.
For example, IG has way more diversity in how their various regiments and planets can be outfitted and fight than the space marines can ever hope to be. We can have regiments entirely made up of feral tribesman armed with bows and muskets, to high tech regiments in carapace armor with hellguns, mentioned time and again in the lore with rich traditions and backgrounds. Because 95% of it can be represented with a basic codex with the fringe options covered by forgeworld, and a few options in the book like regiment traits, relics, warlord traits, etc.
Eh, kindasortanotreally. I still can't have nearly the creative control the lore hints at. But hey, at least we got many different kinds of tanks!
Future War Cultist wrote:It's still possible to condense all ten chapters into one book whilst retaining a slight level of individuality. A chapter tactic and warlord trait for each one, their own stratagems and relics...hell, you could probably still fit the more unique physic powers in as well. Like the Librarian could choose either Unleash Rage, Storm Caller or Mind Worm (chapter dependent) instead of one of the main table powers. It would be a shame to lose the individuality of the individual books but regardless of that I think that GW is aiming to bring them all under one banner with the Primaris marines being front and center. And once that begins there's no going back.
Ten? I think your count is WAY off, unless you just lump anyone not hardcore variant as "Ultramarines"...
Xenomancers wrote:I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
... like this guy wants to have happen.
GW loses a bit of its identity every year, and every year through retconning to get bad fiction to line up with other bad fiction, the background loses a bit of its identity every year. At this rate, we're going to be down to a complicated version of checkers during my lifetime. And that I don't want at all.
I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Blackie wrote: I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
I'd wager that "terminators can equipl plasma cannons" is not in the same league as Murderfang from the Planet Murder with Murderclaws.
DA have SOME of that stupidity as well, but it is far less over the top.
Dark Talon, Darkshroud, Black Knights come to mind. But since it's not that overdone, it adds character.
It's also a bit more spread out with the diversity between Deathwing and Ravenwing plus the knightmonkish appearance of the Greenwing and the whole repentance thing.
Formosa wrote: Ok blood angels and space wolves i can understand? but what are the stupid gimicks of dark angels?
Plasma guns, for some reason.
Well they are not as bad as WULFY WULF Marines or Bloody Blood Vampires but they have begun to follow that dismal road to flanderisation with increasing DARK vehicles and units. I still have a decent sized DA army but the potential Traitor / EMO fluff and anything about the Lion in the last few years makes them less attractive for me to play.
They already had more than enough character for a mainly codex adherent Chapter with the Deathwing and Ravenwing - both really old and still good.
The non snowflake chapters have lots of interesting fluff for actual non flanderised units as well but seldom get more than a look in - no dedicated stealth /sniper teams for Ravenguard, no Special terminators for Salamanders etc etc. One interesting unit per Chapter would have been much more interesting IMO than the constant need to retcon in new units for the snowflake Chapters.
Its the same issue with Marines and other armies just within the Marines bubble - if you just make stuff for a limited range, then yeah shock horror that the stuff you sell. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.
Personally I doubt GW is going to phase out the different chapters. They are probably far too popular for that. Added to that, it seems to be pretty simple to plan for GW to have different chapters use mostly the same models, with just 1 or 2 sprues added to individualize the chapters.
As for the Primaris, I love the quality of the models. So much more detail, so much better proportioned. I would hope though that they do make future Primaris kits a bit darker, a bit less polished. It would fit with the narrative I think. When they arrived first, fresh from the assembly lines they were picture perfect marines. Identical weapons, perfectly polished armor. But after centuries of fighting, far away from the Forges of Mars, the equipment becomes less standard. They become indoctrinated more by the Chapters they joined., taking over iconography, different weapons. I was a bit disappointed by the Primaris tank. I think it looks too cluttered.
Also it's clear to me Primaris are not finished. Current Primaris rules and point costs are simply not competitive in any form. I use Primaris as truescale marines, little reason to use them as Primaris.
Blackie wrote: I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
I admit it, size is their biggest problem, but I don't like the current GW policy about making everything huge. This combined to the asthetics of basic SM, which I never liked, makes me hate the primaris
Blackie wrote: I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
I admit it, size is their biggest problem, but I don't like the current GW policy about making everything huge. This combined to the asthetics of basic SM, which I never liked, makes me hate the primaris
Space Marines figures have always been pretty small compared to the 2nd /3rd edition and onwards fluff
Trade_Prince wrote: Spoilers for Devastation of Baal and some DA stuff as well.
Spoiler:
There is internal strive between the new DA Primaris and the Inner Circle. I doubt Primaris will end up on the losing side being the new GW poster boys. Meanwhile, Devastation of Baal sees about 8 or 9 BA successors die off, BA reduced to 300 members, all named characters being alive however, Dante being made Commander of Imperium Nihilus (northern side of the Rift), but it also says that Primaris BA show no signs of the Red Thirst. It was also mentioned that Cawl fixed the Canis Helix, meaning no Primaris Wulfen or wolf-like mutations.
While GW may go back on that, the image that exists right now is that the majority of BA and SW are Primaris and have literally nothing that makes them stand out compared to UM and DA being at odds with the Primaris. Could this be indicative of the future that the legacy of the Primarchs will be moved to the background with the classic Marines in order to make way for a homogenous Primaris army, making them truly Stormcasts of 40k? For those who don't know, even though there are plenty of interesting Stormhosts, all use the same rules, aka vanilla Stormcasts, and the only two named characters are of that vanilla Stormhost.
And finally there is the fact that there are no named Primaris models and most unique characters are made from resin. Resin will die sooner or later, but will GW ever do releases for classic Marines? We have no official fluff source stating an upgrade from Marine to Primaris is possible, outside of a facebook post, which probably was a PR move to calm down marauding Marine fans.
In light of that development, do you think GW is truly moving to a homogenous SM army, leaving the different flavours behind, or is the "New GW" more clever that one could anticipate and bring those legacies back in their full glory?
I've been saying this should be the reaction quite often since the release of the Primaris, positively surprised GW went down that path. Now let's see how the Black Dragons react!
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, I would question this analogy. First, many of the chapters in question are ostensibly Codex adherent in the first place (Dark Angels and Blood Angels and their successors). Second, for the most part, they all share the same equipment (a Space Wolf predator and an Ultramarines Predator or a Dark Angels predator are all the exact same vehicle, a Baal predator has a simple weapon swap and a souped up engine but is otherwise identical, they all wear the same Marks of power armor, their Boltguns are all largely the same, etc), and all have insanely huge logistic requirements for even the smallest of operations and build everything on similar patterns. Third, at least with Space Marine chapters, we're talking about a very small number of very small fighting forces that don't really have separate branches, that can take years or decades to replace even the most trivial of losses and take years, centuries or millenia for changes in equipment or doctrine or whatnot to filter through.
Really, for the most part, comparing Space Marine chapters is much more akin to comparing two different special operations groups within the same military than comparing vastly different national militaries.
I would say the Dark Angels are, in spirit, the least Codex-adherent. They are still, for all intents and purposes, a Legion. The Blood Angels Successors answering the call of the Blood Angels deployed Legion-strength at Baal, at least hinting at who's actually in charge of the sons of Sanguinius (pure conjecture mind). The Ultramarines Successors showed no such kind of organisation in the defence of Ultramar against the 'Nids (though you could argue that as deploying a single company of UMs was all that was needed, they didn't need any help) or the Death Guard.
I'm not disagreeing tbh. You do say ostensibly adherent, so I'm just elaborating on that.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Personally, I like the overtop-ness of Blood Angels and Space Wolves and I'm a big fan of the Santa Grimnar Sleigh. Although, I do understand why people don't like it.
I think Primaris are absolutely destroying the image of Space Marines. The whole point was that they were flawed. The irony of needing a demi-god to create a breed of post-humans to defend humanity because they can't do it themselves. And yet being so flawed that they become the thing that eventually will destroy humanity itself.
Primaris are way too clean, and high tech for 40K. They don't belong. Just like Tau.
The Intercessor models themselves are fine, and if GW just said "hey, we're re-doing the SM line in true scale" I'd be fine with it. But they introduced all this new fluff, added all this technology that isn't supposed to exist anymore. It simply does not fit. This is 40K, it's Fantasy in space, not Sci-fi. Give them chainswords and power fists, get them dirty and grimdark.
Keep technology out of 40K! This is the Dark Millennium, not the Renaissance Millennium.
Periods of Renaissance often follow dark/”backward” times though. Then after that, you tend to see Golden Ages and Industrial revolutions and gains.
While this doesn’t totally fit with GWs fluff of ripping the galaxy up again, it could be seen as a potential beacon of hope for the future of the Imperium – moving from dark times into brighter periods… Now, this will never fully happen because grimdark and it’s a wargame and a galaxy in flames, but, it could herald the next “steps” in the fluff.
As for Chapters losing their “uniqueness” I don’t think that’ll be the case, even with the advent of Primaris. Their organisation and their fighting styles etc will remain the same with or without Primaris – and so will generally remain the same on the table top. The only differences will be slight “advances” fluff wise for the “new generation” of marines that join the Chapters. Blood Angels will still likely be focused around fast moving assault, as they have specialised units for it and will thus stay that way on the table top. As will the Space Wolves. Their “pack mentality” will remain, even if they no longer have a chance of turning into Wulfen.
I think a lot of people get hung up on certain things in the fluff and then believe that those changes will have a drastic impact on how the army operates afterwards. Getting rid of the Black Rage, sure, it’ll mean a slow die out of the Death Company – but, as they’ve been wanting to cure themselves of the Black Rage since the days of the Horus Heresy, surely such an advancement would be welcomed by the Blood Angels? Even without the Black Rage, Blood Angels will still have the Sanguinary guard, Librarian Dreadnoughts and Baal preds etc. And, no matter what happens, the Dark Angels will always have more secrets somewhere, likewise the Wolves will still have Hellfrost galore and, for now, plenty of wolves to ride.
For me, while Space Marines could be rolled together in 1 codex, that codex would be massive. But, I still think it’d be doable. The things that keep each Chapter/Legion different is the fluff and a small amount of unique units/relics/rules. For all intent and purpose, you could even say Raven Guard and Blood Angels are the “same”. Both like jump packs, both like assassination via melee lightning strikes etc. However, their difference comes in certain units and their fluff – stealth vs essentially blood lust.
Updating models and introducing Primaris Marines isn’t going to change those underlying doctrines and specialisations.
Overall, I guess the Blood Angels have the “most to lose” via a loss of “genetic mutation” from a uniqueness point of view when compared to the Wolves and Dark Angels from a fluff perspective, but it isn’t going to change how their army looks and plays on the table top (unless GW drastically mess around with this – which isn’t likely). Plus, as we are seeing, even with Primaris “taking over”, there are still plenty of instances and conflict within the fluff in regards to the resistance Primaris are facing.
In my view, all Marines should have the same/similar basing when fielding armies – as, well, they are all Marines… Their differences come from the units they then add in around the core.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
It is funny how attitudes change over a short period of time. Just a few months ago a lot of people would fight me tooth and nail about the notion of SM being eventually replaced by primaris. Nowadays it is a well accepted truth.
Trade_Prince wrote:
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
Man, I really like those Bolters.
Blackie wrote:
I admit it, size is their biggest problem, but I don't like the current GW policy about making everything huge. This combined to the asthetics of basic SM, which I never liked, makes me hate the primaris
GW's proportions have sucked for more than a decade. Hell I remember them making it worse back in WHFB 6/7, when the Perry-scuplted "true scale" Empire were inundated with those pumpkin-heads with the giant hands and feet that typify GW's "Heroic scale".
Malachon wrote:
As for the Primaris, I love the quality of the models. So much more detail, so much better proportioned. I would hope though that they do make future Primaris kits a bit darker, a bit less polished. It would fit with the narrative I think. When they arrived first, fresh from the assembly lines they were picture perfect marines. Identical weapons, perfectly polished armor. But after centuries of fighting, far away from the Forges of Mars, the equipment becomes less standard. They become indoctrinated more by the Chapters they joined., taking over iconography, different weapons. I was a bit disappointed by the Primaris tank. I think it looks too cluttered.
Blackie wrote: I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Blackie wrote: I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.
The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.
Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Why isn't the identity of a Space Marine force up to the player creating it? I guess I don't follow much with the "I must have special units and special rules and must be different!" mentality.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
The idea that giving other factions something is "screwing over" Space Marines is equally absurd - due to their fixation with Marines and then with a few specific Chapters they have flanderised them to a almost unrecognisable degree.
When they do give non marines attention they usually do well, but people crying that because the marines are not getting a Codex every month (just every other month) and 300 new units for the same three Chapters is a much less positive result.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
The idea that giving other factions something is "screwing over" Space Marines is equally absurd - due to their fixation with Marines and then with a few specific Chapters they have flanderised them to a almost unrecognisable degree.
When they do give non marines attention they usually do well, but people crying that because the marines are not getting a Codex every month (just every other month) and 300 new units for the same three Chapters is a much less positive result.
I have never seen anyone say "Ogm, Genestealer Cultists?! Why are they releasing this instead of making a new version of Tacticals Marines?!"
But the opposite? Well. Just look at this thread. "If they erase all space marine codex and leave them with only 3, we will have more Codexes and miniature releases for other factions. I'm right? Eh? Anyone?"
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
The idea that giving other factions something is "screwing over" Space Marines is equally absurd - due to their fixation with Marines and then with a few specific Chapters they have flanderised them to a almost unrecognisable degree.
When they do give non marines attention they usually do well, but people crying that because the marines are not getting a Codex every month (just every other month) and 300 new units for the same three Chapters is a much less positive result.
I have never seen anyone say "Ogm, Genestealer Cultists?! Why are they releasing this instead of making a new version of Tacticals Marines?!"
But the opposite? Well. Just look at this thread. "If they erase all space marine codex and leave them with only 3, we will have more Codexes and miniature releases for other factions. I'm right? Eh? Anyone?"
Seen plenty of people saying when do Wolves, Angels of Bloody and Dark variants get there codexes -why do we have to wait for them etc - look at the 8th ed Codex release schedule - Its massively dominated by marines of various hues - the system is clogged by marines so that other stuff suffers - so they are less likely to sell and hence less likely to be invested in in favour of - well more Marines.
We are not even sure the Chapter Approved book will cover all the Factions without Codexes - but of the first three codexes in 2018 - how many are Marines - yep that's right 2.
Elbows wrote: Why isn't the identity of a Space Marine force up to the player creating it? I guess I don't follow much with the "I must have special units and special rules and must be different!" mentality.
They're Space Marines, they're cool enough.
Amen.
I'll be the first to admit, all those different tropes Marines now incorporate drew me away from what I loved about the setting when I started. Back then, I knew nothing of the Heresy, nothing about the SW wolf fetish or space Vampires. I knew nothing about space templars or space sharks. But you know what I knew about? Space Marines. This is a situation where the saying 'can't see the forest for the trees' applies very well. We are so hung up on who or what makes the different Chapters unique, that we lost sight of what they all are. Space Marines. Maybe the return to a more vanilla feel of Marines isn't so bad after all, if only to allow players to explore their avenues and make it about 'their dudes' instead of bickering who got the sillier trope to deal with.
Hm, went a bit on a tangent here. But good post and thanks for reminding me why I started 40k to begin with
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
The idea that giving other factions something is "screwing over" Space Marines is equally absurd - due to their fixation with Marines and then with a few specific Chapters they have flanderised them to a almost unrecognisable degree.
When they do give non marines attention they usually do well, but people crying that because the marines are not getting a Codex every month (just every other month) and 300 new units for the same three Chapters is a much less positive result.
I have never seen anyone say "Ogm, Genestealer Cultists?! Why are they releasing this instead of making a new version of Tacticals Marines?!"
But the opposite? Well. Just look at this thread. "If they erase all space marine codex and leave them with only 3, we will have more Codexes and miniature releases for other factions. I'm right? Eh? Anyone?"
Seen plenty of people saying when do Wolves, Angels of Bloody and Dark variants get there codexes -why do we have to wait for them etc - look at the 8th ed Codex release schedule - Its massively dominated by marines of various hues - the system is clogged by marines so that other stuff suffers - so they are less likely to sell and hence less likely to be invested in in favour of - well more Marines.
We are not even sure the Chapter Approved book will cover all the Factions without Codexes - but of the first three codexes in 2018 - how many are Marines - yep that's right 2.
Actually the first Codex for 2018 are Daemons. Dark Angels and Blood Angels are gonna be for November-December.
Everybody was asking for a Codex to their army, they have all of his right to do so.
But I'm gonna insist that GW has never shown that a lack of Marine releases was translated in more releases for the rest.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
The idea that giving other factions something is "screwing over" Space Marines is equally absurd - due to their fixation with Marines and then with a few specific Chapters they have flanderised them to a almost unrecognisable degree.
When they do give non marines attention they usually do well, but people crying that because the marines are not getting a Codex every month (just every other month) and 300 new units for the same three Chapters is a much less positive result.
I have never seen anyone say "Ogm, Genestealer Cultists?! Why are they releasing this instead of making a new version of Tacticals Marines?!"
But the opposite? Well. Just look at this thread. "If they erase all space marine codex and leave them with only 3, we will have more Codexes and miniature releases for other factions. I'm right? Eh? Anyone?"
Seen plenty of people saying when do Wolves, Angels of Bloody and Dark variants get there codexes -why do we have to wait for them etc - look at the 8th ed Codex release schedule - Its massively dominated by marines of various hues - the system is clogged by marines so that other stuff suffers - so they are less likely to sell and hence less likely to be invested in in favour of - well more Marines.
We are not even sure the Chapter Approved book will cover all the Factions without Codexes - but of the first three codexes in 2018 - how many are Marines - yep that's right 2.
Actually the first Codex for 2018 are Daemons. Dark Angels and Blood Angels are gonna be for November-December.
Everybody was asking for a Codex to their army, they have all of his right to do so.
But I'm gonna insist that GW has never shown that a lack of Marine releases was translated in more releases for the rest.
When was their ever a lack of marine releases - especially when you add in Forge World who also have a huge release schedule for marines and of course many of the special 30k vehicles get a 40k marine vesrsion unlike the 30k Custodes, Sisters of Silence etc. Thats just annoying and without good reason?
Good Chance Thousand Sons and Wolves follow Daemons to "balance the non Marine Codex."
My point is if you do spend some resources on things other than Marines - like say Necromunda, BloodBowl, Dark eldar in 5th, Genestealers in 7th - wierdly enough people wnat ot buy them. If you negelect factions and in some cases - Sisters don;t update the range in decades or even have models in the shops - then wierdly enough people don;t buy them.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Yeah, Primaris are out of scale with how big Primaris are in-universe, but they have the appropiate Space Marine-To Human size. They are true-scale marines.
Galas wrote: Yeah, Primaris are out of scale with how big Primaris are in-universe, but they have the appropiate Space Marine-To Human size. They are true-scale marines.
I don't think it has ever been said how tall the Primaris are supposed to be in-universe. They don't seem significantly bigger in the art. The nine feet figure is something people just made up.
Galas wrote: Yeah, Primaris are out of scale with how big Primaris are in-universe, but they have the appropiate Space Marine-To Human size. They are true-scale marines.
I don't think it has ever been said how tall the Primaris are supposed to be in-universe. They don't seem significantly bigger in the art. The nine feet figure is something people just made up.
We don't have numbers, just that they are normally a head taller than normal marines. But just like normal marines height, it will be very inconsistent througt all media.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
This. The difference between Primaris and classic Marines do not mirror their real size changes and I feel it is a mistake for GW to make Primaris bigger in the fluff just because the models are bigger. They are true scale with a bit more efficiency inside of them. They aren't super-sized, if you ask me.
We don't have numbers, just that they are normally a head taller than normal marines. But just like normal marines height, it will be very inconsistent througt all media.
Where is this 'head taller' from? In any case, that would not make them nine feet tall either, unless they have two feet tall heads...
In the anniversary poster there doesn't seem to be significant size differnce between them, at glance you can't tell which marines are primaris and which are not. I'd say that maybe regular marines are on average seven feet tall while the primaris are seven and half or something like that.
Lexicanum wrote:The Primaris Marines differ from their standard cousins thanks to three additional Implants not found in the latter: Sinew Coils, the Magnificat, and the Belisarian Furnace. The implants, plus the benefits of more potent geneseed thanks to the Sangprimus Portum[5], allow the Primaris Marines to be larger and physically stronger than previous generations of Astartes.[3]
The source is the Dark Imperium novel. They don't specify, but they are bigger than normal marines. And that art kick ass, but as I said, if they reflex the size difference in that image they'll end looking very akward.
I personally like the look of the Primaris, while I think they're a completely useless release, I might have started an army of them if the fluff (and the regular Marine one) wasn't so awful. This might be a good occasion for GW to de-Flanderize their unique chapters, without removing their differences entirely, but from what I am reading, seems they messed it up already.
Bobthehero wrote: I personally like the look of the Primaris, while I think they're a completely useless release, I might have started an army of them if the fluff (and the regular Marine one) wasn't so awful. This might be a good occasion for GW to de-Flanderize their unique chapters, without removing their differences entirely, but from what I am reading, seems they messed it up already.
Give them chainswords and power fists, get them dirty and grimdark.
Keep technology out of 40K! This is the Dark Millennium, not the Renaissance Millennium.
How are you gonna give everyone P-fist and chainswords if you keep tech out of 40K?
Things aren't anywhere yet. The original post is merely conjecture and the rest is wild speculation and hypebole. We have no idea as of yet and we probably will need to wait for a year or two until we know where it'll go.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
Edit: At least we agree on marines being 7ish. The number of times i've seen people aiming for 8-9 for normal marines is wierd.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
Did you miss the part in my post where over half of the current codexes are space Marines? To the point where with proper consolidation (all the chaos Marines one book, all the loyal marine books) we could have had Tau, Necrons, Orks, and Dark Eldar by now. You know, entire RACES compared to a 1,000 or so Space Marines?
Mind telling me how that isn't hurting the game? This is what causes "marinehammer" where half the time you go into a store it's hot marine on marine action. This is what causes one of the main antagonist factions, chaos, to not even represent half of the forces it's been stated as having for DECADES. Why on Earth are we getting codexes on death guard and thousand sons, forces already represented in the chaos codexes, when we have no chaos guard (not cultists, legit traitor guard with tanks), no chaos admech, and no chaos xenos? That is absolutely an example of a heavy marine focus hurting other armies that should be in the game. That's a legion of what, 20,000 Marines tops, completely knocking out millions of traitor guard and admech soldiers? Forces that are so common traitor guard is in 1/3rd of all the IG books out there? Heck the gaunts ghosts series have them as the primary adversary in several books. Yet they have no code and token forgeworld support.
This is what I'm going at. If there wasn't a death guard and thousand son codex we could've gotten a genestealer cult style update for IG so you could take them as chaos, since as it stands you can't even take traitor guard anymore as allies without forgeworld. Maybe even an identical release for admech. It's at least be something so people realize chaos isn't all space Marines and daemons.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
As a Squat player from RT, I can relate to the good ol' fashioned GW screwing. Every subsequent edition of the game has brought up feelings of pissed offness.
I love the Primaris Marines and I do hope that regulars don't go the way of the dodo (or squats for that matter).
If they do make all marines vanilla (i play Salamanders, so help them if they do anything to the Promethian Cult I'll flip),I will be angry and probably find another army to continue to purchase and play.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
This is a Dark Angels Chaplain:
To be honest I don't know the relation between meters and feets, but normal marines seem pretty big to me.
... Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? ...
Why does Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman and Spiderman have so many comics? Why has just been released the 8th Assasin's Creed game? Because money.
I'll repeat myself. This vague idead that if GW screws over Space Marines it will give other armies more prime time is just absurd. If they screw someone, they screw it good and don't give a gak to anyone else.
Instead of demanding more attention directly to GW, people keeps hating and raging about Space Marines getting all the atention. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is gonna have a positive result to the game.
Did you miss the part in my post where over half of the current codexes are space Marines? To the point where with proper consolidation (all the chaos Marines one book, all the loyal marine books) we could have had Tau, Necrons, Orks, and Dark Eldar by now. You know, entire RACES compared to a 1,000 or so Space Marines?
Mind telling me how that isn't hurting the game? This is what causes "marinehammer" where half the time you go into a store it's hot marine on marine action. This is what causes one of the main antagonist factions, chaos, to not even represent half of the forces it's been stated as having for DECADES. Why on Earth are we getting codexes on death guard and thousand sons, forces already represented in the chaos codexes, when we have no chaos guard (not cultists, legit traitor guard with tanks), no chaos admech, and no chaos xenos? That is absolutely an example of a heavy marine focus hurting other armies that should be in the game. That's a legion of what, 20,000 Marines tops, completely knocking out millions of traitor guard and admech soldiers? Forces that are so common traitor guard is in 1/3rd of all the IG books out there? Heck the gaunts ghosts series have them as the primary adversary in several books. Yet they have no code and token forgeworld support.
This is what I'm going at. If there wasn't a death guard and thousand son codex we could've gotten a genestealer cult style update for IG so you could take them as chaos, since as it stands you can't even take traitor guard anymore as allies without forgeworld. Maybe even an identical release for admech. It's at least be something so people realize chaos isn't all space Marines and daemons.
I don't disagree with the ideal world where less Marines means More of the rest. I'm disagree with that perception being realistic. Horus Heresy exist for a reason. Space Marines receive all those books and rules and models for a reason.
And I know, this is a circular problem where Space Marines are more popular because they are more supported. But what you are saying is just wishlisting, and is obvious that isn't the strategy that GW has followed for the past... 20 years? Since the beginning Warhammer 40k has been Space Marine centric because they where made for that exact purpose, to have a protagonist for the setting instead of the generalistic Warhammer Fantasy universe. Space Marines were actually made because Chaos Warriors and their full plate armour where very popular in fantasy (Is a sweet irony how the circle was fullfilled when Sigmarines appeared in AoS) And with the introduction of Primaris Marines and Chaos Marines having their own Codex Legions like Thousand Sons, Death Guard, etc... it doesn't appear to be changing any time soon.
This is why I say that players, instead of demand directly at GW to give more for other factions, they demand less for marines in a vague and totally unrealistic desire that a less amount of marine content will be translated in more content for them. Harlequins and Genestealer Cults happened in a totally marine centric release schedule. Other armies can, and will. But that isn't gonna come with less Marine content.
More marines means more salles for GW, more sales for GW means that they can take risk with other factions. GW as a company hate risk. Marines are the most anti-risk product they can put in the shelves. I don't understand how people can't see that.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
This is a Dark Angels Chaplain:
[image]
To be honest I don't know the relation between meters and feets, but normal marines seem pretty big to me.
^I have to say: One of the reasons for my switch to Tyranids is that recently at my local store there was a night when 9 out of 10 players brought power armor of some sort. 7 loyalists and 2 Death Guard. One guy with Tau. Imo not healty for the meta.
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
This is a Dark Angels Chaplain:
To be honest I don't know the relation between meters and feets, but normal marines seem pretty big to me.
Haha. I meant the models.
Also, that guy looks about 7". Is that supposed to be a primaris?
Primaris are not appropriate size. You may think every marine is supposed to be 9 ft. tall, but that notion is inaccurate.
Marines are supposed to be 7 or 7 and half feet tall. And that is exactly how tall the Primaris are based on the model size when compared to IG and such.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
This is a Dark Angels Chaplain:
[image]
To be honest I don't know the relation between meters and feets, but normal marines seem pretty big to me.
Where's that from?
From the collection of Dark Angels Comics:
-Will of Iron
-Revelations
-Fallen.
This is from the issue 3# of Revelations if I recall correctly.
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
I have something better than a pic: math! Primaris marine models tend to be about 38 to 40mm tall, while most GW's normal humans tend to be 30 to 32mm tall. So if we for example assume that a 31mm tall Imperial Guardsman is 180cm (5' 11")tall, then that means that 39mm tall Intercessor is 226cm (7' 5") tall.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
Because GW wants you to buy Repulsors. It certainly has nothing to do with size, they can't ride vehicles that can carry terminators either.
Edit: At least we agree on marines being 7ish. The number of times i've seen people aiming for 8-9 for normal marines is wierd.
Xenomancers wrote: I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.
Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.
As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?
I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.
We don't have numbers, just that they are normally a head taller than normal marines. But just like normal marines height, it will be very inconsistent througt all media.
Where is this 'head taller' from? In any case, that would not make them nine feet tall either, unless they have two feet tall heads...
In the anniversary poster there doesn't seem to be significant size differnce between them, at glance you can't tell which marines are primaris and which are not. I'd say that maybe regular marines are on average seven feet tall while the primaris are seven and half or something like that.
Should I be more impressed with the level of awesomeness in that art, or the fact that they put Crimson Fists on ANYTHING published recently?
Gonna need a pic for that, as it doesn't bear out with my impression.
I have something better than a pic: math! Primaris marine models tend to be about 38 to 40mm tall, while most GW's normal humans tend to be 30 to 32mm tall. So if we for example assume that a 31mm tall Imperial Guardsman is 180cm (5' 11")tall, then that means that 39mm tall Intercessor is 226cm (7' 5") tall.
Also, if they're the same size, why can't they travel in a Rhino?
Because GW wants you to buy Repulsors. It certainly has nothing to do with size, they can't ride vehicles that can carry terminators either.
Edit: At least we agree on marines being 7ish. The number of times i've seen people aiming for 8-9 for normal marines is wierd.
I blame Black Library.
Well if those numbers are accurate that's kind of interesting.
They still look doofy-big to me though. Maybe that's my grognard kicking in. I could argue that many of them aren't standing upright, but A: thats inconsistent, as many GW models are also spread -legged. B: GW scale is inconsistent anyways.
Dunno how I feel about that. Aesthetically it bugs me.
sorry to rant but the absolutely bonkers amount of space marine codexes has annoyed me for a long time. I was hoping the Black Templar being rolled into space marines was the sign things were changing but alas that wasn't to be. I'd prefer 
