Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.
Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.
But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.
Polonius wrote: Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.
Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.
But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.
Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.
As it stands the Index is going to steadily become more and more optional since basically once every army has a codex the Index will only be casual play.
I fully expect GW to push forward with codex being for the formal competitive rules; updating the army rosters with dataslate releases as and when they can release them (we've yet to see their release plans for new models).
Yes the more detailed and the more GW updates its rules the more references you're going to need. I think that GW has to overcome the hump of never having done this before in order to get things to a stable position.
It will be very interesting to see how they do this for 9th edition. In the past all editions often come with some big changes; so it will be interesting to see if they make it another big jump; or if changes get smaller; or even if 8th is the final "edition" and we instead end up with continual rolling rules.
On another front GW is a business; writing better and more detailed rules means a bigger investment for them. Thus release of those rules has to justify itself and GW's architecture is likely not fully setup to allow for the rules writing to be a freely provided service
Polonius wrote: Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.
Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.
But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.
Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.
I'm curious as to why you're using Index Imperium 1 and Codex: SM. Nothing in the FAQ that I could see tells you to consult Codex: SM for it...is it because you like the rules for the Captain better there?
Also, you wouldn't need CA2017 when your book comes after it "for updated points", since your points would be in your Codex.
Yeah, this is why I am hoping the indexes and their options simply get dropped, and why I think the "intent" of the FAQ ruling and flowchart was to let older players use otherwise defunct models, not to let new players convert up a brand new Autarch with Reaper Launcher.
Otherwise, there's no sense to it.
Presumably, one could simply drop the index altogether, if one tried hard enough. Still using the index is on the player.
I think so, because they made the cardinal sin of "invalidating" people's models. So they had no choice but to allow resorting to Index options, despite it opening the floodgates for abuse. So you will still see people taking index wargear if they want to, because the alternative (having the balls to say the index is no longer valid if you get an updated codex, if some of your models are invalid too bad so sad) will never happen due to the backlash you would see.
I was saying this the moment Codices were announced. I rather enjoyed having multiple armies in a single book, but once Codices were announced, it became very apparent to me that 8E was going to be a multi-book edition.
Chapter Approved and not including legal Index options makes this potentially worse than I had originally anticipated. I mean, do we really need a friggin flow chart to know what options should be legal? GW should have just released slightly more updated Indexes and left it at that. They could have easily broken it down into 7-8 Indexes only: 2 Marine books, 1 Agents of the Imperium book, 1 Aeldari book, 1 Chaos book, 2 Xenos books.
I remember someone once calculated that all rules publications for 7E would have cost almost $2,000USD for all Codices, supplements, main rules, etc. That's ridiculous. 8E looks like it's headed in that direction.
Regarding the Indexes: Currently GW will continue to sell them as long as they contain a Faction without a codex. But mark my words: Once all factions in an Index are updated, GW will not only stop selling that Index, but it will reverse all related FAQ's that allow the use of options that did not make it from the Index to the Codex Something to keep in mind if you are using an "outdated" option like Autocannon Dreads, Biker Librarians or Reaper Launcher Autarchs
There will definitely be a time when Indices are retired from GW's stock and it'll just fade. The few missing entries will be found on random internet images and life will go on.
However, with upcoming Chapter Approved - yes, more stuff is needed and GW did nothing to trim down the amount of paperwork/books needed.
This is why, despite owning my two codices - I do have two double-sided laminated cheat sheets for each army --- listing all my units with FAQ'ed updated rules, points, etc. So when stuff is updated I just update the cheat sheet and use that as my primary source when gaming. Easier that way.
In my case for my Dark Angels I'll use only the Codex as I have no Index-only options. I don't count the basic rulebook because even having one I don't use it, we have 3 for consultation during games in the club I play.
The same will go for Chapter Approved. And even then, Chapter Approved for armies with a Codex is as easy as consulting the point changes that it has and changing the ones in your Codex with a Pencil.
But to play I don't even use books, as Elbows I have all my stats and army rules in MTG-sized cards that the group of Wikihammer is doing. So when I make an army I just pick a "deck" with the units and weapons I'm gonna use, besides the "generic card" that has all the Army rules.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah, this is why I am hoping the indexes and their options simply get dropped, and why I think the "intent" of the FAQ ruling and flowchart was to let older players use otherwise defunct models, not to let new players convert up a brand new Autarch with Reaper Launcher.
Otherwise, there's no sense to it.
Presumably, one could simply drop the index altogether, if one tried hard enough. Still using the index is on the player.
As a snowflake Marine player you can either go buy:
Core Rule Book
Index Imperium 1
Codex Space Marines
Chapter Approved
Codex Snowflakes
Astartes-Index from FW
or
just wait until Codex Snowflakes hits, buy that and play with the free Core rules.
or
buy the Index now and keep playing with that one until Codex Snowflakes comes out (after that it's still your choice not to buy it, but I can see how that is kinda mandatory)
Noone forces you to buy Primaris, noone forces you to buy FW models. You can have fun without them, personally I think Puppy Primaris shouldn't exist, for example. Noone forces you to keep buying the Index after the Codex came out, since you can just play without the Index-only options.
Polonius wrote: Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.
Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.
But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.
Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.
I'm curious as to why you're using Index Imperium 1 and Codex: SM. Nothing in the FAQ that I could see tells you to consult Codex: SM for it...is it because you like the rules for the Captain better there?
Also, you wouldn't need CA2017 when your book comes after it "for updated points", since your points would be in your Codex.
Index Imperium 1 has most of the Space Wolves datasheets. For the Wolf Lord, it tells you to instead use the Space Marines Captain datasheet. The latest version of the Space Marines Captain datasheet is in Codex Space Marines. Isn't the general consensus/FAQ instruction to use the most recent version of a datasheet and only go to the Index if there are deprecated wargear options? I would assume that if I'm instructed to use the Space Marines Captain datasheet, "standard play" would expect me to use the most recent version?
Honestly, the rules are a total nightmare. Does my Space Wolves Wolf Lord use the Space Wolves Melee Weapons List or the Space Marines Melee Weapon List? After all, he's not really a Wolf Lord right now. He's a Captain we're pretending is a Wolf Lord. Can I take Wolf Claws for my Wolf Lord?
Wayniac wrote: I think so, because they made the cardinal sin of "invalidating" people's models. So they had no choice but to allow resorting to Index options, despite it opening the floodgates for abuse. So you will still see people taking index wargear if they want to, because the alternative (having the balls to say the index is no longer valid if you get an updated codex, if some of your models are invalid too bad so sad) will never happen due to the backlash you would see.
"Thou shalt not give players options then take them away."
Is the loss of goodwill worth winning over the 3rd party recasters?
Index rules were to cover GW removing ALL codex from 7th edition in one go. At the time it was the best approach; now they are remaining as fairly balanced rules for models no longer (or never) in production by GW.
This makes sense; its basically fan-service for long term fans to have access to rules for models that are currently retired from production. Chances are many will come back in the future as GW gets new or makes first sculpts for them. Or you'll see new things replace them - eg the Neurothrope has basically replaced the doom of malan'tai
Actually I think GW is in a win-win - some will ache over the increased speed of rules releases; but when the quality is far superior to what we've had before and when there are apps that can be used that get around needing to buy every bit of new-release then its steps in the right direction.
Also lets not forget much of this confusing is GW getting used to a totally new release type for them with relation to rules. Give them time - heck in the past we'd have had what 2 new codex releases by now under the old system and we might be looking at another around Christmas - instead we've got two more coming and already over half the factions
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
Or you can play any of the factions with current rules and models directly out of their books. That's their current goal, new player grabs their rules and boxes and has an army.
Older models have been relegated to legacy support if that. I don't even have options to properly run my ancient genestealer cult minis and that doesn't overly surprise me. While I'd kill for rules for cult limos, I don't expect those either.
That said, they really should release any points changes via faq as well as chapter approved. It'll still be minorly annoying, but it's not pay to play.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I will say the Reddit hype over this being the "best balanced edition" is a large part of what drew me back in.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I will say the Reddit hype over this being the "best balanced edition" is a large part of what drew me back in.
M.
And how did that turn out? With shills like the FLG crew who were apparently playtesters but either kept things broken to abuse in tournaments (being competitive players) or GW using a half-assed playtest approach (equally likely), GW backtracking on "free rules" and then the Mandela Effect kicking in to make people think they never actually said that (they did and then changed it to "core rules free"), to 8th being a dumpster fire at the highest levels with rampant abuse of smite, spamming units, detachments, etc. it's just a big cluster
Kriswall wrote: Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Yes, it is going to continue. GW's publishing branch needs a steady flow of revenue to break even or remain profitable. As such they will continue to publish rules, rules updates and new rules and rules supplements, because... what else would they do?
I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Hans Chung-Otterson wrote: I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.
That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
One chapter approved will suppersed the previous one. It will have still the missions, etc... but nobody is gonna use the Chapter Approved from the previous year for anything more.
Hans Chung-Otterson wrote: I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.
That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
what makes you think they wont just override the previous years chaprooved.
ultimately the way these books are being released it only hurts for people that run many factions. its fine for new players or people that are conservative in there collection. (or people with out updated codex)
Hans Chung-Otterson wrote: I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.
That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
So how many books did you have to lug around in 7th to have the same content available? You know, those books that were consolidated in the Advanced Rules. Or, in the case of FW, in one thin Index per faction.
And honestly - you're already carrying around 2000 points of models, aren't you?
I made an awesome list last edition that required the following to play:
Rulebook
KDK Codex
Agents of the Imperium
SW Codex
Champions of Fenris
SM Codex
FW: IA 2
SoB Codex
SoB w/ Repressors and Old Celestine, Thundercav, and Librarius Conclave summoning Demons.
Kriswall wrote: Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
You know, I was thinking the same thing when I saw the Chapter Approved stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Chapter Approved is returning but now I have 5 books I have to carry around just to play:
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules)
2. Index Imperium 2 (IG)
3. Codex Astra Militarum
4. Forgeworld Index Forces of Astra Militarum
5. Chapter Approved 2017
One might ask why I need index if I have codex? GW thought it would be a good idea to omit half the options available to units in the codex, despite being legal & in the index.
I assume that GW just assumes everyone is going to pirate the books anyway. There's almost no money to be made on the books themselves once you account for shipping, stocking, etc.
But to play I don't even use books, as Elbows I have all my stats and army rules in MTG-sized cards that the group of Wikihammer is doing. So when I make an army I just pick a "deck" with the units and weapons I'm gonna use, besides the "generic card" that has all the Army rules.
An interesting idea I'm curious to try - would you happen to have a link?
Hans Chung-Otterson wrote: I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.
That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
what makes you think they wont just override the previous years chaprooved.
ultimately the way these books are being released it only hurts for people that run many factions. its fine for new players or people that are conservative in there collection. (or people with out updated codex)
GW greed plus what makes you think they will put more and more point change pages to new book? Bunch of point changes this year, new ones next year. List grows pretty fast.
Plus doubtful they put all the rules from chapter approved 2017 to 2018 version. Or does the page count double each year
Core Rules
FAQs AM Codex
Index 2 [For my Inquisitor, Assassins, or Rough Riders]
And Chapter Approved. [When it comes out.
My Partner needs -
Core Rules
FAQs Tyranid Codex
Index Xenos [Whichever one it was] For her Shrikes
Imperial Armour - For her Malanthrope
And soon too need Chapter approved.
Apart from the cost, the weight is also significant, especially since they insist on doing nothing but hardcover.
I wish they released some type of mini-dex with just the rules (no art, no fluff, and no weapon profile on the datasheet, only at the end), softcover, A5 size. Since GW will never sell that by itself, they could include it with the normal codex.
I think most of us seldom open our codex during the games, so a hard-to-read light version would be sufficient. It's just to have some sort of official thing when someone asks (i.e., not show the stats/rules on battlescribe).
My Partner needs -
Core Rules
FAQs Tyranid Codex
Index Xenos [Whichever one it was] For her Shrikes
Imperial Armour - For her Malanthrope
And soon too need Chapter approved.
And
Actually all your partner needs is:
Core Rules (and honestly you only need one per game rather than one per side)
FAQ (soon to be voided as the FAQ/errata are appearing in the Chapter Approved)
Tyranids Codex
The rest are optional extras that players agree to be allowed to use prior to the game.
Index Xenos - optional expansion of the core game rules.
Imperial Armour - optional expansion of the core game rules.
(also as its only one profile from each of those two books you could always photocopy the specific page for use at the club rather than carrying the whole book in every time)
GW intends the core of the game to be Rulebook and Codex. That many players have legacy models that are not currently in production is why the index are still valid as it means that they can still have fairly balanced rules in the current edition for those models; but its clear that GW is not intended to support those models further with rules updates unless they release new sculpts for those models (or re-releases old sculpts for them). GW is thus trying to appease you by offering options that have been removed; but at the same time in the long term is not likely to continue to support those models in a big way.
The hyperbole in this thread is amazing. Especially when a lot of it comes down to player agency. No one forces you to play Imperial Soup or old models GW doesn't want to support anymore.
I run AdMech, Sisters, Grey Knights and IG in varying mixes and I don't complain because I've run these armies (except AdMech) since 6th and its the price you have to pay. It's the army I want to run and I'll accept that there are some downsides to that.
I'll also say that in this day and age if you don't want to buy a codex you don't really have to unless you're technology illiterate. If you only need one entry from an Index like the Space Wolf captain just screenshot the datasheet on your phone. I can't believe no one hasn't thought of these things or ways around it.
Index Imperium 1 has most of the Space Wolves datasheets. For the Wolf Lord, it tells you to instead use the Space Marines Captain datasheet. The latest version of the Space Marines Captain datasheet is in Codex Space Marines. Isn't the general consensus/FAQ instruction to use the most recent version of a datasheet and only go to the Index if there are deprecated wargear options? I would assume that if I'm instructed to use the Space Marines Captain datasheet, "standard play" would expect me to use the most recent version?
Honestly, the rules are a total nightmare. Does my Space Wolves Wolf Lord use the Space Wolves Melee Weapons List or the Space Marines Melee Weapon List? After all, he's not really a Wolf Lord right now. He's a Captain we're pretending is a Wolf Lord. Can I take Wolf Claws for my Wolf Lord?
If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.
Sim-Life wrote: The hyperbole in this thread is amazing. Especially when a lot of it comes down to player agency. No one forces you to play Imperial Soup or old models GW doesn't want to support anymore.
Sure nobody does. Of course hopefully you then enjoy losing your games. Or not using models you already own because GW decided they want to charge you more to use your existing models.
Sim-Life wrote: The hyperbole in this thread is amazing. Especially when a lot of it comes down to player agency. No one forces you to play Imperial Soup or old models GW doesn't want to support anymore.
Sure nobody does. Of course hopefully you then enjoy losing your games. Or not using models you already own because GW decided they want to charge you more to use your existing models.
There's that hyperbole again. Also companies have never suppoted products they don't make anymore indefinitly. Video game companies don't release patches to games they made 10 years ago. Microsoft eventually stops supporting old versions of Windows. Why should GW be any different?
Sim-Life wrote: The hyperbole in this thread is amazing. Especially when a lot of it comes down to player agency. No one forces you to play Imperial Soup or old models GW doesn't want to support anymore.
Sure nobody does. Of course hopefully you then enjoy losing your games. Or not using models you already own because GW decided they want to charge you more to use your existing models.
There's that hyperbole again. Also companies have never suppoted products they don't make anymore indefinitly. Video game companies don't release patches to games they made 10 years ago. Why should GW be any different?
If you limit yourself to non-soup in soup-edition you are going to lose. You are throwing up too much power by not doing it. Well of course maybe you are Napoleon compared to your opponents or roll like dice god.
But sure if you disagree let's wait for Imperial or Chaos score big on tournaments with just one book source Good thing about this is it's provable so if you disagree you can prove it by taking on big tournament with single book Imperial list and show I am wrong.
And support is going to be at least until 9th ed thus. Index is printed and legal. So again unless they are worthless crap options you are just going to lose more by not taking them. Plus of course you have pile of models you can't use if you don't buy. Not much choice there which is why GW did this. They didn't do this out of goodness of heart but to get MORE MONEY from players by forcing them to buy it.
All they care is getting your money. they aren't doing it smart way but that's their goal.
Sure, I guess my partner could not take units to take less books. I mean it's not like competative Tyranid lists run Malanthropes anyway. And we definately won't be expected to take actual GW Books to GW events. I'm sure they'd be fine if I just downloaded a dodgy PDF or something...
Sim-Life wrote: The hyperbole in this thread is amazing. Especially when a lot of it comes down to player agency. No one forces you to play Imperial Soup or old models GW doesn't want to support anymore.
Sure nobody does. Of course hopefully you then enjoy losing your games. Or not using models you already own because GW decided they want to charge you more to use your existing models.
There's that hyperbole again. Also companies have never suppoted products they don't make anymore indefinitly. Video game companies don't release patches to games they made 10 years ago. Why should GW be any different?
If you limit yourself to non-soup in soup-edition you are going to lose. You are throwing up too much power by not doing it. Well of course maybe you are Napoleon compared to your opponents or roll like dice god.
But sure if you disagree let's wait for Imperial or Chaos score big on tournaments with just one book source Good thing about this is it's provable so if you disagree you can prove it by taking on big tournament with single book Imperial list and show I am wrong.
And support is going to be at least until 9th ed thus. Index is printed and legal. So again unless they are worthless crap options you are just going to lose more by not taking them. Plus of course you have pile of models you can't use if you don't buy. Not much choice there which is why GW did this. They didn't do this out of goodness of heart but to get MORE MONEY from players by forcing them to buy it.
All they care is getting your money. they aren't doing it smart way but that's their goal.
The 40k tournament scene is a pretty small, vocal part of the community friendo. Judging how GW should go about their buisness based on maybe 30% (being generous) is folly. Casual play is the norm not the exception. Something a lot of people on the internet forget.
Core Rules
FAQs AM Codex
Index 2 [For my Inquisitor, Assassins, or Rough Riders]
And Chapter Approved. [When it comes out.
My Partner needs -
Core Rules
FAQs Tyranid Codex
Index Xenos [Whichever one it was] For her Shrikes
Imperial Armour - For her Malanthrope
And soon too need Chapter approved.
You'll need:
- 1 set of core rules (can easily be printed on 4 pages, and you'll almost never need to look at it anyway)
- 1 chapter approved (FAQs will be rolled into this)
- Your codex
- At most 1 printed page with the various special units you want to include
Seriously, you want to have legacy support for all old models, you don't want to have multiple books, but the books should also be free.. what else?
Kriswall wrote: Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Right up until space wolves get there own codex.
sucks to have bad luck i guess.
So... at that point I'd need...
1. Warhammer 40,000 8th BRB for Matched Play Rules and Army Building Options
2. Index Imperium 1 - For legacy wargear options
3. Codex Space Wolves
4. Chapter Approved 2017
List looks pretty much the same to me. I do acknowledge that I could simply throw away any models with wargear options not in the Codex and eliminate the need for the Index, but that seems crazy.
Sure looks like GW has parleyed it's "free rules" game into a game that requires $150+ of rules to run a basic army in a Matched Play setting.
Kriswall wrote: Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Right up until space wolves get there own codex.
sucks to have bad luck i guess.
So... at that point I'd need...
1. Warhammer 40,000 8th BRB for Matched Play Rules and Army Building Options
2. Index Imperium 1 - For legacy wargear options
3. Codex Space Wolves
4. Chapter Approved 2017
List looks pretty much the same to me. I do acknowledge that I could simply throw away any models with wargear options not in the Codex and eliminate the need for the Index, but that seems crazy.
Sure looks like GW has parleyed it's "free rules" game into a game that requires $150+ of rules to run a basic army in a Matched Play setting.
Core Rules
FAQs AM Codex
Index 2 [For my Inquisitor, Assassins, or Rough Riders]
And Chapter Approved. [When it comes out.
My Partner needs -
Core Rules
FAQs Tyranid Codex
Index Xenos [Whichever one it was] For her Shrikes
Imperial Armour - For her Malanthrope
And soon too need Chapter approved.
You'll need:
- 1 set of core rules (can easily be printed on 4 pages, and you'll almost never need to look at it anyway)
- 1 chapter approved (FAQs will be rolled into this)
- Your codex
- At most 1 printed page with the various special units you want to include
Seriously, you want to have legacy support for all old models, you don't want to have multiple books, but the books should also be free.. what else?
Games Workshop's other game, Age of Sigmar has...
1. Legacy Support for all old models. (free warscrolls)
2. No requirement for multiple books. (battletomes are largely optional and not yet released for most factions)
3. Free core rules. (that actually include everything you need to play a game, unlike the 40k free rules that don't explain even basic army selection or deployment)
4. Free unit warscrolls (datasheets).
Realistically, you need to buy the General's Handbook ($25) for the points and Matched Play rules. You can also buy a Battletome (Codex) if you want, but it's very, very optional for most armies. Given that AoS has legacy support, free core rules and free unit rules... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from 40k and be a little irritated that a small army requires multiple, expensive rules sources.
Both Matched Play...
AoS:
To run a Stormcast Eternal army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Seraphon army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $25 worth of purchases.
* General's Handbook 2017 ($25)
* Everything else is free
40K:
To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)
Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.
Core rules are easy to remember, relevant FAQ's are written in the codex and Chapter Approved isn't out yet so ignore it
Just because you've seen the rules elsewhere and have a good memory, doesn't mean you don't need the core rulebook to play a game. It's a false statement to say that you only need the one book. Also, Chapter Approved may not be out today, but it will be within about 10 days or so, so I think it's very reasonable to include in the discussion.
Kriswall wrote: Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.
Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.
1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Right up until space wolves get there own codex.
sucks to have bad luck i guess.
So... at that point I'd need...
1. Warhammer 40,000 8th BRB for Matched Play Rules and Army Building Options
2. Index Imperium 1 - For legacy wargear options
3. Codex Space Wolves
4. Chapter Approved 2017
List looks pretty much the same to me. I do acknowledge that I could simply throw away any models with wargear options not in the Codex and eliminate the need for the Index, but that seems crazy.
Sure looks like GW has parleyed it's "free rules" game into a game that requires $150+ of rules to run a basic army in a Matched Play setting.
Again, why do you need Chapter Approved 2017?
Codex: Space Wolves isn't out yet.
I would need Chapter Approved 2017 between when it is released and when Codex Space Wolves comes out. I may not need it after Codex Space Wolves comes out. I won't know until then. I just know that between now and then, I WILL need it as I'm expecting things like the Razorback my Grey Hunters cruise around in to be getting new points.
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BaconCatBug wrote: No-one plays AOS so there is no money to be made in selling rules. I would bet the most unpopular (plastic) army in 40k outsells the entirety of AOS.
You think that the Sisters of Silence outsell all of Age of Sigmar? Maybe in your local gaming world. I just don't think your statement is even remotely accurate.
But... you did hit the nail on the head. There is money to be made in selling rules. GW is trying to nickle and dime us to death, except that the nickles are $25 and the dimes are $50. GW is both a publishing company that sells models to support it's book line AND a modelling company that sells books to support it's model line. They don't operate like a gaming company. Most gaming companies either include the required rules with the models/expansions/etc OR provide the rules for free online. GW does neither. They want to sell you the game piece and also sell you the rules for that game piece. Do any of GW's direct competitors do this?
1. Legacy Support for all old models. (free warscrolls)
2. No requirement for multiple books. (battletomes are largely optional and not yet released for most factions)
3. Free core rules. (that actually include everything you need to play a game, unlike the 40k free rules that don't explain even basic army selection or deployment)
4. Free unit warscrolls (datasheets).
Battletomes also weren't ever intended to be a requirement. There is some stuff that you can't ever get via the free rules though such as the different Orders of Stormcast Eternals which they do sell as microtransactions. Imagine the whining if you had free rules for everything but people had to pay $2.50 for Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics if they didn't want to buy the codex.
Realistically, you need to buy the General's Handbook ($25) for the points and Matched Play rules. You can also buy a Battletome (Codex) if you want, but it's very, very optional for most armies. Given that AoS has legacy support, free core rules and free unit rules... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from 40k and be a little irritated that a small army requires multiple, expensive rules sources.
The Battletomes are far from optional at this point. Warscroll Battalions are here to stay.
Also, General's Handbook is $35 for the 2017 edition. It's bigger than the previous one.
Both Matched Play...
AoS:
To run a Stormcast Eternal army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Seraphon army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $25 worth of purchases.
* General's Handbook 2017 ($25)
* Everything else is free
And what happens if you want to run any of the Warscroll Battalions that aren't the Legacy one?
40K:
To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)
Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.
Sure they're doing it for AoS...because they've killed off not just units but whole armies in some cases. Also worth mentioning that General's Handbook doesn't update everything and the Warscrolls that no longer exist aren't in it.
For example, my Glade Riders have no points attached to them.
AoS needs a revamp and I suspect once 40K 8thed is settled we'll see GW restore a lot of Sigma to some of its original roots. Certainly many armies need restructuring and they need to fix their website too (at present anyone new to Sigma and wanting to play, say, elves will find it a nightmare just finding what goes into an elf army). Sure the story is forever changed for Sigma but there's no reason they can't bring back faction identities; heck with Warhammer TW doing so well it would be a shock if GW didn't get Sigma sorted within a year or two (to at least tie into the 3rd and last TW Warhammer release)
1. Legacy Support for all old models. (free warscrolls)
2. No requirement for multiple books. (battletomes are largely optional and not yet released for most factions)
3. Free core rules. (that actually include everything you need to play a game, unlike the 40k free rules that don't explain even basic army selection or deployment)
4. Free unit warscrolls (datasheets).
Battletomes also weren't ever intended to be a requirement. There is some stuff that you can't ever get via the free rules though such as the different Orders of Stormcast Eternals which they do sell as microtransactions. Imagine the whining if you had free rules for everything but people had to pay $2.50 for Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics if they didn't want to buy the codex.
Realistically, you need to buy the General's Handbook ($25) for the points and Matched Play rules. You can also buy a Battletome (Codex) if you want, but it's very, very optional for most armies. Given that AoS has legacy support, free core rules and free unit rules... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from 40k and be a little irritated that a small army requires multiple, expensive rules sources.
The Battletomes are far from optional at this point. Warscroll Battalions are here to stay.
Also, General's Handbook is $35 for the 2017 edition. It's bigger than the previous one.
Both Matched Play...
AoS:
To run a Stormcast Eternal army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Seraphon army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $25 worth of purchases.
* General's Handbook 2017 ($25)
* Everything else is free
And what happens if you want to run any of the Warscroll Battalions that aren't the Legacy one?
40K:
To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)
Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.
Sure they're doing it for AoS...because they've killed off not just units but whole armies in some cases. Also worth mentioning that General's Handbook doesn't update everything and the Warscrolls that no longer exist aren't in it.
For example, my Glade Riders have no points attached to them.
I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.
Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.
Im just saying, i can lug a single page of rules and get a better and cheaper rule set. By cheaper i mean free. You can totally get new blood with it. Add house rules to flavor and you wont ever have to worry about book and rules bloat!
https://onepagerules.com
Overread wrote: AoS needs a revamp and I suspect once 40K 8thed is settled we'll see GW restore a lot of Sigma to some of its original roots. Certainly many armies need restructuring and they need to fix their website too (at present anyone new to Sigma and wanting to play, say, elves will find it a nightmare just finding what goes into an elf army). Sure the story is forever changed for Sigma but there's no reason they can't bring back faction identities; heck with Warhammer TW doing so well it would be a shock if GW didn't get Sigma sorted within a year or two (to at least tie into the 3rd and last TW Warhammer release)
Not sure why the website is so problematic? It's not like you push "Aelf" on there and get sent to all of the things that have keyword "Aelf" on them somewhere. It's broken into the subfactions that you can look at via the app.
Worth mentioning that there is no "Aelf" army right now. There's only two items that come up under that heading on the app and that is the Mistweaver Saih and Tenebrael Shard.
I feel like no matter what GW does at this point someone's going to come up with a complaint about it.
My question is, if you don't want to have to HAVE so many books, don't take the items from them. We had this discussion in my Club last night.
We can't cry for more options from GW, and when we have them, cry because we have too many things that give us options. The Indexes are there so that older players can still use models that are no longer produced. To be honest, it's actually quite a nice thing to have from an older player perspective and a nice homage to us from GW. They could have just as easily said "Nope, can't use that stuff anymore" and we'd have more butthurt from older players.
In summary, if you don't want to carry/buy 10 books, don't take all the options from all of the different books. Take them from your codex or from the Index if you don't have a codex yet.
I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.
Yeah, I'm sure they would...
You seem to forget that people complained about the free rules for AoS even at launch when the campaign books included more stuff that wasn't free.
Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.
Right, because it also doesn't match your attempted example.
No matter how things shake out, it looks like you'd find something to complain about.
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zerosignal wrote: GW in 'not really changing' shock horror 8th in 'not actually simpler' shock horror whodafunkit
The big thing is that 8th actually is simpler. It really is. The rules are pretty easy and quite frankly, I don't see a reason why you'd have to carry your rulebook with you to a game once you're familiar with the core rules and what keywords do. The idea that you need to bring your rulebook for the Detachments is kinda silly as you should be doing your lists ahead of time and it's not hard to figure out what goes where past a certain point.
The problem is that people are obsessing over things like the "requirement" to bring their Index with them because of one model that they can't run in the codex anymore. Take Shrikes for example. The only time they actually had a kit was from Forge World. Did people really expect them to stay in the Codex when the Vendetta, one of the similarly most easy to convert things in the game didn't stay in the Guard book? It went to the Forge World Index and still resides there after the Guard book has dropped. There very much is an attempt to try and overcomplicate things in the weirdest way.
I think on the subject of books im an all or nothing kind of guy. I want all the rules compiled in one or 2 publications, to play ah faction. I want a codex with index exclusive entries, and ca updates after a few years. And for that i wait. Because i dont feel like buying all that. If you dont want 5 books and or publications, i advise you to not buy it as well. They interface with the community a lot more these days and they will one day get the picture. Vote with your wallets.
But to play I don't even use books, as Elbows I have all my stats and army rules in MTG-sized cards that the group of Wikihammer is doing. So when I make an army I just pick a "deck" with the units and weapons I'm gonna use, besides the "generic card" that has all the Army rules.
An interesting idea I'm curious to try - would you happen to have a link?
I have, the problem is that they are all in Spanish. And I don't know if I can link directly here in Dakkadakka because they are the rules (Without point costs) so I don't know if it is considered piracy.
Here is an example of the wonderfull work they have done:
Spoiler:
I have just print those, glue them to a little cardboard piece and put them on card sleeves. So basically when I'm listbuilding instead of going with my book to the club, I just have a "deck" with all the rules of my army.
I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.
Yeah, I'm sure they would...
You seem to forget that people complained about the free rules for AoS even at launch when the campaign books included more stuff that wasn't free.
Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.
Right, because it also doesn't match your attempted example.
No matter how things shake out, it looks like you'd find something to complain about.
You can feel free to paint me as a serial complainer, but I don't think my complaints are unreasonable. Everyone expects that a new edition will require a purchase of new rules. I just didn't expect that purchase to cost so much and be spread out over so many books. As a Space Wolves player, I need to buy...
1. Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook. I'm ok with this. New Edition, new rulebook. That's reasonable.
2. Index Imperium 1. Hmmm... I'd be happier if the interim datasheets were free, knowing that I'm going to have to buy a new Codex, but I guess $25 isn't too bad.
3. Codex Space Marines. Ok, I'm really not happy that I need to buy this, but it does have the most recent datasheets for some of the units in my army, so if I want the most up to date rules, I need this. My community expects everyone to use the most up to date rules.
4. Chapter Approved 2017. Seriously? My codex isn't even out yet and I'm buying an update to both my interim list and an entirely different Codex that I didn't want in the first place? I'm also getting a handful of rules
5. Codex Space Wolves. Finally.
I'm simply not as willing as you to give GW a pass on this. They either didn't think this through or did think this through and simply don't care that a single faction requires a ton of money to play if you want up to date rules.
Kriswall, you are right, GW will milk us for 40k. In AoS they need to convince people to play, thats why they rebox Stormcast Eternals from 5 a box to 10 lowering the price per model something like 37%, and they literally lower the price of the Magmadroth, the first time in GW history they do that, and put it on a SC! box with other 10 naked slayers.
True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.
For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...
Cheeslord wrote: True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.
For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...
This is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The FAQs are pretty clear that if there is a new version of a given datasheet in a Codex, the newer version should be used. I would consider purposefully using a prior edition of a datasheet for in game advantage to be a form of cheating. I'm not a power gamer or a cheater. The current discussion is simply about how many rules sources are needed and the related expense to run a simple army "correctly" in today's 8th Edition.
If that is the only reason he brings index, he doesn't get to complain about carrying a great many books.
I like to think in positives, it reduces my stress levels : I don't thinkGW origianlly intended to completely invalidate certain old option (autarchs with jump generators) saw online backlash and changed it. Not something they would have done 2-3 years ago.
I suspect the two main reasons GW invalided models with no rules form the new codex are:
1) After the Chapter Approved case GW doesn't want to leave models on the table that 3rd parties can cast up and sell before GW sells a model for that option
2) It makes it a LOT more new-gamer friendly. Sure anyone can learn to convert, but when you're new chances are you don't have the skills; you don't have the backlog of spare parts that make converting affordable; etc...
It's also worse if its an old model that was on sale and now isn't as that kinda gives a feeling that older players have a bonus over newer ones (even if the old unit is rubbish). I think GW cleaning up the codex and yet still providing the index is a great move. Fans with bigger collections can still use the models in friendly matches if they want; whilst anyone new to the hobby has a single codex purchase and its got everything for your army in it.
Also lets not forget Chapter Approved is also being bundled with Apoc and other rules systems so its not just a rebalance and a few stat changes; its also expanded game modes (And apoc has proven to be very popular)
Crimson Devil wrote: When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.
I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.
You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.
(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).
Hans Chung-Otterson wrote: I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.
I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.
That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
what makes you think they wont just override the previous years chaprooved.
ultimately the way these books are being released it only hurts for people that run many factions. its fine for new players or people that are conservative in there collection. (or people with out updated codex)
GW greed plus what makes you think they will put more and more point change pages to new book? Bunch of point changes this year, new ones next year. List grows pretty fast.
Plus doubtful they put all the rules from chapter approved 2017 to 2018 version. Or does the page count double each year
Feeling very fragmented to me currently. Owning a mix of 7 armies (plus FW models) feels very disjointed atm and confusing in some places.
Can only hope it genuinely settles next year once everyone gets a codex but have a definite fear the merry go round might just start up again.....
Back in the RT days they had separate books just for weapons... this is GW, it has pretty much always been this way in terms of requiring more than one document.
Crimson Devil wrote: When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.
I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.
You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.
(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).
Crimson Devil wrote: When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.
I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.
You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.
(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).
M.
I'm not kidding.
Oh. Well, get the PDF version, then. Less effort, less material waste.
Overread wrote: Lets be honest - GW has a LONG way to go before they get to DnD levels of book madness
Doesn't the DnD Adventurer's League stipulate that player's can only use the Player's Handbook plus one other source? That's not exactly book madness. The new edition is actually very reasonable. Requires fewer rule books than 40k does.
Kriswall wrote: Doesn't the DnD Adventurer's League stipulate that player's can only use the Player's Handbook plus one other source? That's not exactly book madness.
So what you're saying is that a TO made a house rule? Heresy!
Kriswall wrote: To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)
Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.
-- Complaining about having to buy the BRB is so silly, so including it on the list of books you want to whinge about buying is silly. Regardless of all else, the BRB is the one book you'll buy regardless.
-- So from my understanding of what is going into it, Chapter Approved will contain a nice amount of extra stuff which will be probably justify the expenditure. Since your Codex comes out after Chapter Approved, a couple of things come to mind:
-- -- Once your Codex for Space Wolves comes out, you buying it is entirely optional for obvious reasons.
-- -- If you find yourself needing to refer to the Chapter Approved book because your opponent insists Chapter Approved be used, I'm sure there's someone at your local GW or an Open Copy at said GW that you can use for the short amount of time you're likely to need it.
But let's be honest: The Chapter Approved book is going to be worth it anyway and is - in my mind - akin to the BRB. There'll be additions to core rules as well as extras that I think a majority of players will be incorporating into the games, meaning it would be prudent to have these extra rules and treat the Chapter Approved as a kind of second BRB. In my mind, there's no sense in whinging about buying it.
As for the Index for Space Marines (with particular reference to the Captain), this was covered by Scott-S6 on Page 2:
If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.
Plus I haven't read the index personally since I waited for the Space Marine Codex to come out before starting to play in 8th, but I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a Captain profile in the Index that you could use. Saying "I bought the SM Codex so I could use the Captain profile" is one of the most foolish things I've ever heard of someone doing in 40K. Buying an entire Codex to use the most recent version of a profile you almost surely had access to anyway is ridiculous and your own fault, so you don't get to whinge about that. You could have just stuck with the Index.
Let’s look at 7th edition... bandaid fix to 6th edition...
40kApoc hope you love the D and stomps. An infinite amount of super OP formations. Flyrant spam... there was super rules bloat with many useless rules - Soul Blaze.
8th edition is a total reboot and just what the game needed.
I don’t really have an issue with the way they’re approaching things with regard to the *number* of books, per se, but I’d personally prefer smaller, softback books – a hardback seems really unnecessary for something that, by design, has a limited lifespan, and it’s a pain to lug around an extraneous 170-odd pages of nonsense just so you have access to the Core rules, missions, etc. Haven’t given any of the new Codices a close look yet, but would I be right in thinking they suffer the same problem?
Ultimately, though, you can dislike GW’s approach, but if you keep buying the books, you’re ultimately just encouraging them to carry on the way they’re currently going.
It's pretty irritatingly to read people's comments along the lines of "you're wrong to think it's too much money". And then when people such as the good Galas above get so highhanded and up himself I feel queasy it is just the cherry on top. Yes even £30 is quite a bit to some people never mind multiple purchases at that price or more.
So take your "good life choices and hard work" and take a running jump
Actually, no. I'm not the kind of people that can go and spend 100€ in miniatures a week just because he feels like it.
I am very aware of how I spend my money. But theres some people that just has the money and has no problems spending it. And it doesn't is reduced to "Oh you are rich because you were lucky".
Some people has worked hard to be able to do that, and they deserve that their opinions are not discredited based on fallacies and generalizations.
I have always complained about GW prices. Thats why I have never buy directly from them, most from 3rd partys or Ebay. But I can accept that for some people those prices are just fine. And as this is a hobby product and non-vital, they aren't totally wrong.
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
My inquisition would absolutely love that.
After all, you get your book for acolytes and inquisitors. Then you get your book (Imperial Armor Index 1: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes) for your Inquisitorial Land Raider Prometheus, then codex AM for your Inquisitorial Chimeras and Valkyries and general support, and then you get the Adeptus Astartes book for rhinos, and then you take stuff from Deathwatch because you are Ordo Xenos and then you bring an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor and his Grey Knights because you are running a conclave list.
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.
The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.
The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.
One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.
It's pretty irritatingly to read people's comments along the lines of "you're wrong to think it's too much money". And then when people such as the good Galas above get so highhanded and up himself I feel queasy it is just the cherry on top. Yes even £30 is quite a bit to some people never mind multiple purchases at that price or more.
So take your "good life choices and hard work" and take a running jump
Careful now, you'll draw out the "well its just a hobby, if you cant afford it, dont play it. Just like the type of console/PC you buy" brigade
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.
The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.
One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.
It tells you to use the datasheet for Captain, the most updated of which is in Codex: Space Marines.
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.
The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.
One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.
It tells you to use the datasheet for Captain, the most updated of which is in Codex: Space Marines.
And the Index FAQ does not tell you to do so. I did a "Find" on Wolf Lord and Captain in the FAQ and did not see anything telling Space Wolf players, Dark Angels players, or Blood Angels players to go get the Space Marines book and use that datasheet.
I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."
I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."
So, because it doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to use Captain of Codex for Wolf Lord, you don't?
Because it's a pretty easy process. You're told to reference the Captain datasheet. The flowchart indicates that you would use the Index datasheet ONLY if there's no Codex datasheet. There's a Captain datasheet in Codex: Space Marines.
I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."
So, because it doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to use Captain of Codex for Wolf Lord, you don't?
Because it's a pretty easy process. You're told to reference the Captain datasheet. The flowchart indicates that you would use the Index datasheet ONLY if there's no Codex datasheet. There's a Captain datasheet in Codex: Space Marines.
I'll repeat this since you didn't read it:
If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.
Hollow wrote: YES. You need the rules to play your models in a game. Those models may be confined to one codex. Or multiple books. Don't like it? Leave.
Hollow wrote: YES. You need the rules to play your models in a game. Those models may be confined to one codex. Or multiple books. Don't like it? Leave.
That attitude led to a decade of decline for Gw.
I agree, but only to a certain extent. For example - With the amount of supplements and whatnot that were released at the end of 7th Edition, the OP (Kriswall) has a point. The amount of of books you had to buy to keep up with any given army was ridiculous, which was made even worse if you had more than one army. But with regards to 8th Edition? Hallow has more of a point and Kriswall's opinion on the books begins to fall by the wayside. So let's take a few examples:
Let's take a Vanilla Space Marine Player:
-- Rulebook
-- Codex
-- Chapter Approved
You could also say they needed to purchase the Index, but given how soon after the Rulebook the Codex came out, it is definitely not unreasonable for people to have done what I did which was simply wait for the Codex (thus bypassing the need to buy the Index).
Let's now take the Non-Vanilla Space Marine Player. I reject Kriswall's premise that you need to buy the Codex simply because you need the most up-to-date versions of a specific set of profiles such as the Captain. For play in tournaments and the like, I'm sure you could consult the internet, an Open Copy of the Codex at your FLGS, or some other source like Battlescribe (all of which are free) for the units in the Codex (e.g. the most recent version of the Captain's profile) that you may have to use. It may take a bit more effort compared to having the Codex in front of you, but it is certainly cheaper. So how is this solution not better than unnecessarily spending money on the Space Marine Codex?
As for having to buy the Index in the first place: If you play a decent amount of games (i.e. get solid use out of the book) before the Space Wolves Codex comes out, then hasn't the Index paid for itself by the time it becomes (effectively) redundant? I know that if I were in Kriswall's position, I would certainly not genuinely complain about ever having to buy the Index. I have one close friend who plays Space Wolves and another who plays Dark Angels, neither of whom have their army's Codex yet and neither of whom have ever genuinely complained about buying the Index in the mean time. So why is Kriswall?
I also reject the idea that he will need to keep the Codex Space Marines and the Index once the Space Wolves Codex comes out. Why? No Vanilla Space Marine player I know of has ever needed to go back to the Index after the release of the Codex, so why would Space Wolves players?
The only way that the attitude expressed in Hollow's post is bad is if GW decides to do what they did with 7th which is - after every Codex is released - then go on to release unnecessary supplement after unnecessary supplement.
All this talk about books and stuff to buy when all you need is the internet, battlescribe, and a half decent memory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do, however, usually buy the digital codex for my army. There's literally no need to ever buy the rulebook though in this edition. All of the core rules are for free, and you can find all the other missions and stuff online in about two seconds.
Stus67 wrote: All this talk about books and stuff to buy when all you need is the internet, battlescribe, and a half decent memory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do, however, usually buy the digital codex for my army. There's literally no need to ever buy the rulebook though in this edition. All of the core rules are for free, and you can find all the other missions and stuff online in about two seconds.
Battlescribe is how we get crap like the Atlanta Guard army.
Personally, I won't play anyone who doesn't have their book or a digital copy of it.
*edit* Didn't realize there was more than one pages. Sorry.
**edit**
I had to stop after reading page 2. I can't believe the people complaining about being "forced" to do this or that. You have a choice. Nobody is being forced. If you think you are being forced, you are free and nobody is forcing you to stay. Maybe it's time to pick up a new game, take a break or breather or quit.
GW and nobody else is making you do nothing you don't want to do.
JNAProductions wrote: I agree with the OP. I think his complaint is a pretty valid one.
As do I. I'm already trimming down most likely to a few Shadow War Armageddon forces.
If my son really wants to play and has time soon, I may keep a small army.
really tired of what they seem to be doing, and perhaps it's just not the game for me anymore. I thought this edition was going to be a bit better about the topic.
My group and I play so many systems it's not like we'll be twiddling our thumbs without it.
JNAProductions wrote: I agree with the OP. I think his complaint is a pretty valid one.
As do I. I'm already trimming down most likely to a few Shadow War Armageddon forces.
If my son really wants to play and has time soon, I may keep a small army.
really tired of what they seem to be doing, and perhaps it's just not the game for me anymore. I thought this edition was going to be a bit better about the topic.
My group and I play so many systems it's not like we'll be twiddling our thumbs without it.
pretty much already done that, got rid of everything but a primaris army i am painting for someone else. 8th as a whole has been a real killer for me of any interest and the new direction of gw games may be good for others, I am not at all impressed. The more I play other companies games the less I miss gw. I will still play 30k until it finally dries up.
Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
I think there is a remarkable difference between 8th and 7th. Seventh was confussing because they didn't stop producing supplements with new rules, formations, and trash that did not matter to anyone but if it was broken you had to use it if you wanted to be competitive.
On the contrary, in 8th ... What have they put out there in the form of rules? Index and Codex. Point. CA is nothing more than a change of points, I do not think that such a thing confuses anyone. And all Errata and FAQ's? Yes, they can be confusing, but they are free things to try to balance the game.
That's why I think you can not compare the current state of 8th with 7th, because although they do not stop tweaking things, the nature of how they do it and most importantly, the goal, is incredibly different.
GW has already confirmed in Twitch that they are just looking to avoid this dance of rules in 8th. From now on there will be 3 large annual balance patches.
They will make 2 annual FAQ's, one every 6 months: One in March, after the Adepticon tournament, and another one after September, after the NOVA OPEN.
Then there will also be a Chapter Approved per year. A 30$ dollar book a year.
And thats it. What you can get will be things like campaigns, etc ... that put new units, but nothing more. There will not be the madness of formations and weird rules in 400 books as in seventh. Any new unit that they produce, will bring the rules in the box to use them and the points will be free on the web as they have done with the Primaris units to be able to use them.
Brutallica wrote: Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
Brutallica wrote: Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
No more than Traitor Legions did for CSM in 7th Ed.
This notion of fragmentation is strange, because I was given to understand a released codex replaced index rules. Otherwise AM would still (and rightly so!) use the Index Commissar. Nerfing would literally be pointless in the Codex if you could mix and match index and codex.
I myself have gotten by with the Codex (40 USD) and Battle Primer (0 USD), and asking a couple questions (0 USD), for my Eldar army. It's not like finding out the detachments are hard. You can friggin' Google them. Hell, GW provided the information on the Patrol, Battalion, and Brigade Detachments, so there's 60 USD off right there for the book. Oh, and 25 USD for the Index with my previous point. Save money, live better: common sense.
Now for DA, yes, I have the Index, and I'll have to buy the codex when it comes out. But that's no different from CSM in 7th buying Traitor Legions because it helped their struggling army because CSM in 7th ed base was *terrible*. I'm divided on this. On one hand, casual players that want a low price of entry can do so with the Index--which is about half the Codex's price. People that dived into 8th Ed though and are willing to shell out whatever will be buying the Index and Codex--possibly for multiple armies. The fact I've spent extra money on a stopgap is not lost on me. However, I'm invested in the game, so this doesn't surprise me.
In either case, that's about 65 USD to play the game at launch, or 40 USD to pick up the rules for an army? To run complicated detachments such as a Vanguard + Spearhead + Air Wing?
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
That, alongside extreme "color in the lines" armybuilding due to canned synergy combos ("Hurfdurt, I take Herne&Jonne with Madhammer cuz dey get da most of da Blastiness. I iz so smart") was enough to dissuade me from trying the game beyond a few VASSAL runs in MkII.
Granted, when I did try MkII, I enjoyed saying polemic stuff like calling Exemplar Errants Tactical Marines and such.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
I'm the opposite; I loved the rules of Warmahordes, it was the complex interactions and "gotchas" that soured me because it literally hurt my brain to comprehend all of them. 40k on the other hand feels simple, almost stupidly so; just roll a bunch of dice and remove models. The problem is the balance gulf in 40k is bordering on/crossing into ridiculous, where you can literally lose games because you like X models instead of Y models.
MagicJuggler wrote: Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
How is that literally any different to what GW is doing with certain units now? Looking at you Screamer Killers and the Knight variants.
MagicJuggler wrote: Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
How is that literally any different to what GW is doing with certain units now? Looking at you Screamer Killers and the Knight variants.
Sadly, it really isn't. This is one of the main things that has soured me on 8th, and parts of 7th to a lesser extent. Like, does every Genestealer Primus have a standard-issue Needle Pistol, does every Magus have a standard-issue Autopistol and Stave? What was funny about that codex was it had an "armory" page, but the non-relic/vehicle sections were only used by one unit in the entire codex!
Really, GW should do away with the OOP models. People have had long enough to use them and they're still perfectly good showpieces. Almost all my Rogue Trader era eldar became obsolete 10 years ago. They're a business, and supporting OOP models - that went OOP because nobody was buying them - is a bad business decision.
I get it that people love their certain special minis, but GW isn't evil for retiring old stuff, and aren't obligated to support everything forever. Older editions still exist with the rules for those minis, people can play oldhammer if they like.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm and at that only certain themes are considered good.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
EDIT: And honestly I prefer Malifaux and Infinity over both but no one around here plays them.
I'd suggest games like Fast and Dirty and No Limits, but FAD has gone out of support (and the rules sold to some publishing company...need to check back up on that), and nobody is going to jump ship to a new, indie game without much following with you.
Their main thing is total customization - you have the math that dictates what a unit should cost based on the stats.
For 15mm, Gruntz was standard. I bought the book but come to think I never actually read it...no one here is going to jump ship from Warhammer.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm and at that only certain themes are considered good.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
EDIT: And honestly I prefer Malifaux and Infinity over both but no one around here plays them.
[/spoiler]
Dude. Seriously. Just stop. The more you talk, the more you prove that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
There's absolutely no evidence that the devs favor Cygnar. They're not even the "top faction" inn the tournament scent, at the moment. That's Cryx. Cygnar may be the main protagonist in the main story, but there's absolutely nothing pointing to them being favored by the devs.
Yeah. Cygnar is all humans. Except for the ogryns, bogrin, and trollkin and dog in the army. Kahdor actually is all nothing but humans, except for the dog. The protectorate, being the xenophobic creator of man worshippers, is entirely human. Cryx has everything from human pirates, undead pirates, liches, undead birds, human zombies, ogryn/ trollkin zombies, satyxis pirates, black ogryn pirates and blighted trollkin. Yeah, Cryx it's all humans too... right. Then there's the Retribution of Scyrah that has no humans. But they're just humans with pointy ears, so they're the same too, I guess. Then there's the convergence of Cyriss which is mostly clockwork models. There are some humans in that faction to, so i guess they're all the same as well. Oh, let's not forget the mercenaries. I mean there are dwarves, trollkin, ogrun, gobbers and elves, but those are just short humans, large humans, short ugly humans, large ugly humans and humans with pointy ears. All the same. Yup. That's not to mention the six hordes factions.
I also didn't realize that all human armies are the same. So I guess its just just humans, tau, eldar, necrons, and tyranids in 40k. Because space marines, chaos marines, astra militarum, adeptus custodes, sisters of silence, adeptis mechanicus, and the inquisition are all just different flavors of humans. Nope. No diversity whatsoever.
You're clueless. There are tons of options for both games. Both games are equally diverse. You don't have a clue, and you're proving it with idiotic statements like "the archangel sucks. "
It's really rather astonishing that GW hasn't just moved to providing all rules online for free so that they can simply update whichever part needs updating. Do it piecemeal as you finalise most of the army lists and then do it once every other month. Then they can introduce new units and characters whenever they feel like it without worrying about putting them in a book.
Spend some money and effort on a good app for rules and army building in addition to the basic PDFs and you could really be talking a major revival. GW has the resources and name recognition to pull it off.
If they want to sell physical books they could make background and art books that are really luxurious to appeal to the die-hard fans of specific armies.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Rosebuddy wrote: It's really rather astonishing that GW hasn't just moved to providing all rules online for free so that they can simply update whichever part needs updating. Do it piecemeal as you finalise most of the army lists and then do it once every other month. Then they can introduce new units and characters whenever they feel like it without worrying about putting them in a book.
[...]
If they want to sell physical books they could make background and art books that are really luxurious to appeal to the die-hard fans of specific armies.
This is honestly how I expected 8th Edition to go too - with rules for units included in the boxes (which would also be free online), the books would be there for people who wanted the background info and the artwork etc. I felt that when the basic rules came out online they made a huge step forward, and with model rules included in the box as a "ready to throw on the table" gesture. Just seems that they need to make one more step forward. It would definitely drive model sales because, as we see almost constantly, a tweak to points values or a change in a special rule and people are dumping their suddenly non-competitive models by the boatload, ready to rush out and buy whatever the latest "most powerful" unit/faction is.
I think they're tending in the right direction, but old habits die hard. Heck, I still remember the dark old days when you couldn't GET the rulebook without buying the damned boxed game, regardless of if you wanted the two starter armies or not!
This is honestly how I expected 8th Edition to go too - with rules for units included in the boxes (which would also be free online), the books would be there for people who wanted the background info and the artwork etc.
Same; indeed, I remember back in 4e digging up some old Russ its on eBay and finding what I presume to be the 2e rules for them in the box - rather liked the idea. As is, most of the players I've known don't really give a fig about the story - it's just cool models, backed with just a real high-level understanding of the faction in question.
Curiously, my Infantry squad boxes only have the rules for the infantry squads themselves - nothing for Conscripts. I also wonder if the adjusted rules / stat values would ever find their way into the boxes, or if they're effectively obsolete after a few months.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Damn. Did i start that?
I dont like warma/hordes from an aesthetical PoV but thats subjective of course. I dont think there are nearly as many factions and unique sculpts as 40k has, and i was under tje assumption that its usually ("best") played with less than 50 miniatures on the table. Is any of that incorrect?
Cheeslord wrote: True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.
For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...
This is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The FAQs are pretty clear that if there is a new version of a given datasheet in a Codex, the newer version should be used. I would consider purposefully using a prior edition of a datasheet for in game advantage to be a form of cheating. I'm not a power gamer or a cheater. The current discussion is simply about how many rules sources are needed and the related expense to run a simple army "correctly" in today's 8th Edition.
It can get a little complex in what is legal, what is cheesey, and what is fine.
Consider an Autarch on a Bike with a Missile Launcher. If someone always had it modeled, and always liked playing it, they should still play it. But they shouldn't take the Hunter trait with it to casual games.
On the other hand, if someone saw that FAQ, then cobbled togetehr something they could call an Autarch on a Bike with a Missile Launcher, and took Hunter every game to snipe characters... I would certainly call that cheese. And not like it. Regardless of whether it's OP, it's clearly attempting to exploit a loophole.
You can't really have rules that allow the first case but not the second. So the rules now default to "Well, we don't support those rules anymore, but it would be BS to tell you you can't do it...".
Put another way, the rules defaulted to being permissive to allowing models people already have to be played. But the rules can't specify "If you already own X" for various (good) reasons.
Best option would be to include all options in the Codex (still unhappy about that). But allowing Index options is better than not.
(I play my Sunrifle as Hawk's talon now - which feels very wrong to me. I miss my Sunrifle. But I play casually, and figure my opponents would prefer I not use the Index.)
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Damn. Did i start that?
I dont like warma/hordes from an aesthetical PoV but thats subjective of course. I dont think there are nearly as many factions and unique sculpts as 40k has, and i was under tje assumption that its usually ("best") played with less than 50 miniatures on the table. Is any of that incorrect?
If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine. As far as the rest, almost everything you stated is incorrect.
There are 13 faction, 14 next year, between the two games. Each faction has different warcasters or warlocks that change how you want to play the army. Each faction also has themes that are essentially sub-factions that change the way you want to play your army, as well. The smallest factions have about 35 model or unit entries. The main factions have around 100 model or unit entries. Each model or unit entry has one or more unique sculpts.
There is no one "best" way to play an army. Each caster wants to play differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. Some run their battlegrounds better, while others support troops better. It all depends on how you want to play your army.
A typical game is played at 75 points. A 75 point army can have as few as 10 models or as many as 100 and will last about 2 hours.
One other big difference is that in Warmachine, you can build nearly any army archtype from any faction. There are some gaps (Cygnar can't do heavy infantry, while cryx can't do gunline), but there are plenty of ways to play each faction. unfortunately, that means there's a lot of overlap.
As I said - I AM asking, so thanks for the clarification Knight. As I said - I don't like the aesthetics, so it's pretty unfortunate that the core game play appears to be something I might enjoy. I always thought of it as a "you get 1 big thingy and a few tiny guys and that's it" kind of game, which didn't sound appealing at all. But I'm glad there is an alternative at all.
Rosebuddy wrote: It's really rather astonishing that GW hasn't just moved to providing all rules online for free so that they can simply update whichever part needs updating. Do it piecemeal as you finalise most of the army lists and then do it once every other month. Then they can introduce new units and characters whenever they feel like it without worrying about putting them in a book.
[...]
If they want to sell physical books they could make background and art books that are really luxurious to appeal to the die-hard fans of specific armies.
This is honestly how I expected 8th Edition to go too - with rules for units included in the boxes (which would also be free online), the books would be there for people who wanted the background info and the artwork etc. I felt that when the basic rules came out online they made a huge step forward, and with model rules included in the box as a "ready to throw on the table" gesture. Just seems that they need to make one more step forward. It would definitely drive model sales because, as we see almost constantly, a tweak to points values or a change in a special rule and people are dumping their suddenly non-competitive models by the boatload, ready to rush out and buy whatever the latest "most powerful" unit/faction is.
I think they're tending in the right direction, but old habits die hard. Heck, I still remember the dark old days when you couldn't GET the rulebook without buying the damned boxed game, regardless of if you wanted the two starter armies or not!
I think the app is coming but GW wants to push all the codexes out the door first.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Damn. Did i start that?
I dont like warma/hordes from an aesthetical PoV but thats subjective of course. I dont think there are nearly as many factions and unique sculpts as 40k has, and i was under tje assumption that its usually ("best") played with less than 50 miniatures on the table. Is any of that incorrect?
The force allowance really limits the amount of certain types of models, so generally I rarely see more than one of any unit on the table. around 50 models is about right (there is scaling to the game) IT does have its problems, but I have rarely if ever seen the kind of "garbage" I have while playing 40k and 8th is so far the worst of the bunch, its like guilliman leads every imp army ever. 40k really could take a lesson from FA in how to limit cheeze and spam. from a core rules perspective I have found GW to be lacking across the board in nearly everything except LOTR which is pretty solidly done. Aesthetic is a common thing I hear from about folks not into IK and to be honest its kinda like licorice, you either love it, hate it, or let it grow on you, either way it turns your poop green. I was not a fan of it in D20, but like its new RPG as much as i like CoI, though warmahordes proper is not my thing either. I have found it overall a much better conceived ruleset that works pretty good. There are those mismatches (but every game has those) that can seem one sided, but generally any force can win. Most of my army consists of "Prime" units and they have served me quite well (I usually win far more than I lose) something that core units in 40k just dont seem to do. I really think the FOC in 40k should be adjusted away from the "bring what you want" concept
