It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure
Fascinating story, not one I'd heard before. I'd say, out of everything mentioned on the wikipedia entry, the infrasound hypothesis makes the most sense to me.
They were scared by someone to hell, beaten to death and forced to run away, hide and frozen. Question is who and why did that. And why there is no signs of other people (or big animals) presence,
The wiki page likely only summarises the information present.
Ifrasound would be possible, it should also be possible to test for this so if it can be proven to be a phenomenon that takes place there then that could be one angle.
Another is human or animal attack. Depending on how long it was between them abandoning the camp and the camp being found it could be that evidence (eg tracks) might well have been lost. I'm unfamiliar with the are but wolf/bear attack or even threat could be a potential source of fear that would cause them to abandon camp (though I'd say wolves are not known to attack human groups - but wolves with feral domestic breeds can be more likely to attack people - and a rabid wolf or halfbreed is always dangerous).
People could be a large possibility, their reasoning might be never known but its a likely result. Being scared, beaten or just scared away by violent actions of others.
Up the side of a mountain its harder to imagine what might be worth protecting up there; but there's more than enough cases of people wandering the woods/outlands and finding drug farms and other operations that can be violently protected.
It's not avalanche threat, because mountain is too flat.
They were inside tent. So.. it's not like someone pointed a gun at them.
They ripped a way outside using knife. Yop, they had knives and axes.
Freakazoitt wrote: It's not avalanche threat, because mountain is too flat.
They were inside tent. So.. it's not like someone pointed a gun at them.
They ripped a way outside using knife. Yop, they had knives and axes.
A threatening person inside the tent, esp if in the entrance; who had a weapon of some kind, might well have scared them enough to tear their way out of the tent. Also if there were tears on the tent itself then who says they were on the outside? Tearing into the tent would certainly terrify most people - eg a bear or attacking person.
Matthew wrote:It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure
I'll just quote what I posted in the other thread:
But Kholat Syakhl isn't a tall mountain nor very steep. The diaries of the campers also mention that the snow layer was a bit on the thin side. However, a small avalanche is possible, and would also explain the tent being cut from inside-out.
And the fact that the party were experienced, and led by a serious and level headed individual, makes simple panic due to fog and weather, or mistaking it for an avalanche, unlikely.
NinthMusketeer wrote:The sound-induced panic seems plausible. Failing that I would think it was a supernatural cause; 'ghosts' or such.
Crispy78 wrote:Fascinating story, not one I'd heard before. I'd say, out of everything mentioned on the wikipedia entry, the infrasound hypothesis makes the most sense to me.
The infrasound hypothesis, as with the avalanche theory, has a few problems. One that they share are the injuries.
What I posted in the other thread:
The only problems I see with the avalanche theory is that the hikers appeared to flee the site in a hurry, instead of trying to salvage some of their clothing/gear (as you pointed out, they had experience at this). And Igor Dyatlov was known to be a sober, serious individual, and careful about preparations and safety. The other problem is that the treeline was about 1.5 miles from the campsite. Some of the hikers had fatal injuries that left them 20 minutes of life, if even that. There is no evidence that any of the party carried anybody down the mountain. Everybody appeared to have fled from the camp to the forest under their own power.
Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think their was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
That still doesn't explain the injuries suffered by some of the party. Some of which would have killed them before they completed the 1.5 mile distance to the forest.
And the party kept detailed diaries of their expedition, including notes on local conditions. It was noted that the ground snow was a bit on the thin side. And while the region was noted for avalanches, the area that Dyatlov chose to camp for the night wasn't considered a high-risk spot for such. So, the party, in all likelyhood, were aware of the avalanche risks in the various locales, especially since the more experience members of the party had trekked that region in the past.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think their was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
That still doesn't explain the injuries suffered by some of the party. Some of which would have killed them before they completed the 1.5 mile distance to the forest.
And the party kept detailed diaries of their expedition, including notes on local conditions. It was noted that the ground snow was a bit on the thin side. And while the region was noted for avalanches, the area that Dyatlov chose to camp for the night wasn't considered a high-risk spot for such. So, the party, in all likelyhood, were aware of the avalanche risks in the various locales, especially since the more experience members of the party had trekked that region in the past.
With regards to them knowing about avalanche risk, its why I include the infrasound theory on that part. Without knowing exactly how it affected them its hard to draw conclusions, but I could see infrasound inducing a temporary panic. Going for the tree line makes sense when they would think avalanche. Plus it depends on group dynamics, who gets affected etc. Extreme hypothermia also could influence people to undress as they have the sensation of being warm.
As to injuries, its though without knowing the exact conditions. Could falls have induced them, weather effects and decay. When did they get injured? Hard to be sure.
But as people rule out the avalanche/infrasound combo we get to exceedingly far out theories. Even a secret experiment theory sounds implausible, so far from any infrastructure or testing group. If they were meant as the testing group how is there no documentation? How would they be suitable in the first place as human test subjects were likely available under easier controlled conditions? Still keeping secrets after 60+ years? If so what is so important to keep secret 60 years later as this seems like a singular incident? Etc etc. It just puts up even more implausible obstacles, beyond going for supernatural/aliens of course (which I don't count personally).
It's pretty odd because all the injuries are inconsistent. The missing facial parts (eyes and tounge and lips) could have been caused by animals after an event so probably shouldn't focus on that. The rest had compression injuries to the chest consistent with crushing (like they ran into a tree?) Seems kind of weird to me that they have foot tracks but they don't specify if the victims were running or walking. Also if outside people were involved they easily could have covered their tracks.
I think people had to be involved in this.
I think a group of locals scared them out of the tent - tortured a few of them by having a really fat guy sit on their chest for long periods of time - and the rest of them died to exposure. Why do some people have 1 sock or 1 shoe on? Because psycho people do psycho things sometimes.
Xenomancers wrote: It's pretty odd because all the injuries are inconsistent. The missing facial parts (eyes and tounge and lips) could have been caused by animals after an event so probably shouldn't focus on that. The rest had compression injuries to the chest consistent with crushing (like they ran into a tree?) Seems kind of weird to me that they have foot tracks but they don't specify if the victims were running or walking. Also if outside people were involved they easily could have covered their tracks.
I think people had to be involved in this.
I think a group of locals scared them out of the tent - tortured a few of them by having a really fat guy sit on their chest for long periods of time - and the rest of them died to exposure. Why do some people have 1 sock or 1 shoe on? Because psycho people do psycho things sometimes.
Sounds like the set-up for the next Eli Roth movie.
Xenomancers wrote: It's pretty odd because all the injuries are inconsistent. The missing facial parts (eyes and tounge and lips) could have been caused by animals after an event so probably shouldn't focus on that. The rest had compression injuries to the chest consistent with crushing (like they ran into a tree?) Seems kind of weird to me that they have foot tracks but they don't specify if the victims were running or walking. Also if outside people were involved they easily could have covered their tracks.
I think people had to be involved in this.
I think a group of locals scared them out of the tent - tortured a few of them by having a really fat guy sit on their chest for long periods of time - and the rest of them died to exposure. Why do some people have 1 sock or 1 shoe on? Because psycho people do psycho things sometimes.
The problem with human violence is the fact that there were no signs of a struggle either at the location or on the bodies (like defensive wounds). Plus the local population was noted to be peaceful. Combined with the remoteness its unlikely that they were attacked. Plus if outside people were involved why leave the bodies there? Its just leaving proof for murder lying around, so it seems unlikely in my opinion.
The clothes thing, hypothermia can induce an effect called paradoxical undressing. Meaning victims start undressing. Either that or the others might have taken clothes off them if they abandoned their tent without too many clothes.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think their was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
That still doesn't explain the injuries suffered by some of the party. Some of which would have killed them before they completed the 1.5 mile distance to the forest.
And the party kept detailed diaries of their expedition, including notes on local conditions. It was noted that the ground snow was a bit on the thin side. And while the region was noted for avalanches, the area that Dyatlov chose to camp for the night wasn't considered a high-risk spot for such. So, the party, in all likelyhood, were aware of the avalanche risks in the various locales, especially since the more experience members of the party had trekked that region in the past.
With regards to them knowing about avalanche risk, its why I include the infrasound theory on that part. Without knowing exactly how it affected them its hard to draw conclusions, but I could see infrasound inducing a temporary panic. Going for the tree line makes sense when they would think avalanche. Plus it depends on group dynamics, who gets affected etc. Extreme hypothermia also could influence people to undress as they have the sensation of being warm.
As to injuries, its though without knowing the exact conditions. Could falls have induced them, weather effects and decay. When did they get injured? Hard to be sure.
But as people rule out the avalanche/infrasound combo we get to exceedingly far out theories. Even a secret experiment theory sounds implausible, so far from any infrastructure or testing group. If they were meant as the testing group how is there no documentation? How would they be suitable in the first place as human test subjects were likely available under easier controlled conditions? Still keeping secrets after 60+ years? If so what is so important to keep secret 60 years later as this seems like a singular incident? Etc etc. It just puts up even more implausible obstacles, beyond going for supernatural/aliens of course (which I don't count personally).
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
Audio induced madness wouldn't have resulted in physical injury save for any induced from a fall. Also note that it appears they all scattered at around the same time, so whilst audio induced madness could have occurred there's still the fact that it affected all of them at near the same time.
Animal attack one would have expected more bite/tear marks on the bodies (eyes and tongue lost after is likely animal scavenging). It won't account for crushing injury to the chest. And you'd expect more direct damage to the tents (though the slash marks might be hiding evidence of prior exterior attack.
Hypothermia induced issues still require them to have left the tents and the safety of their camp and also still doesn't fully explain injury.
Peaceful people can still be violent or they might have come across a group of non-native non-peaceful individuals. Smugglers/poachers etc.. An attack could scare the people from their camp in a blind panic; on the retreat they could have been simply chased until the cold did the initial work of debilitating them beyond their ability to fight back meaningfully; then the attacks throw a few good injuries (crushing from a club) to ensure that their targets were down and then left. Or, as alluded to above, they could have been impacted by vehicles and chased by them on their escape (which would certainly cause them to scatter and flee).
PS don't forget not every science lab comes from CSI/NCIS so they aren't going to be able to work out the exact cause of many injuries (and certainly not going to suddenly be able to identify the specific make, brand, lot number and purchase history of any weapons used). This is without considering any damage to the bodies post mortem whilst they were exposed to the elements before being found and collected.
The reason I like the panic theory is it accounts for behavior and self-injury that would otherwise be illogical. Afaik the injuries could have all been near or post death by hypothermia.
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.
As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
Audio induced madness wouldn't have resulted in physical injury save for any induced from a fall. Also note that it appears they all scattered at around the same time, so whilst audio induced madness could have occurred there's still the fact that it affected all of them at near the same time.
Animal attack one would have expected more bite/tear marks on the bodies (eyes and tongue lost after is likely animal scavenging). It won't account for crushing injury to the chest. And you'd expect more direct damage to the tents (though the slash marks might be hiding evidence of prior exterior attack.
Hypothermia induced issues still require them to have left the tents and the safety of their camp and also still doesn't fully explain injury.
Peaceful people can still be violent or they might have come across a group of non-native non-peaceful individuals. Smugglers/poachers etc.. An attack could scare the people from their camp in a blind panic; on the retreat they could have been simply chased until the cold did the initial work of debilitating them beyond their ability to fight back meaningfully; then the attacks throw a few good injuries (crushing from a club) to ensure that their targets were down and then left. Or, as alluded to above, they could have been impacted by vehicles and chased by them on their escape (which would certainly cause them to scatter and flee).
PS don't forget not every science lab comes from CSI/NCIS so they aren't going to be able to work out the exact cause of many injuries (and certainly not going to suddenly be able to identify the specific make, brand, lot number and purchase history of any weapons used). This is without considering any damage to the bodies post mortem whilst they were exposed to the elements before being found and collected.
The investigators ruled out an assault on the party. The main suspects, the local Mansi, were cleared. And friends of the group described the men as being "tough guys" and "not scaring easily". Even the history of the enigmatic Semyon “Alexander" Zolotaryov (fought with the dreaded NKVD Interior Ministry troops, the Soviet counterpart to the Waffen SS, during the war) points to a group that wouldn't be cowed easily by punks with clubs and knives. Since the evidence points to flight on the part of the group, if they had the strength and presence of mind to run, they were able to fight back. And the valuables belonging to the group were not taken, including money, jewlery, vodka, and camera equipment. And unless you were a Party hack, or knew somebody in your local Communist Party organs, there was little chance that you could get guns, even on the black market. Local bandits would've unlikely had access to firearms.
There were, however, items found that were then-current military issue, on the scene that allegedly weren't dropped by the troops involved in the search, weren't on any lists of items compiled by the group before departure, and not recognized by friends and family.
Audio induced madness wouldn't have resulted in physical injury save for any induced from a fall. Also note that it appears they all scattered at around the same time, so whilst audio induced madness could have occurred there's still the fact that it affected all of them at near the same time.
Animal attack one would have expected more bite/tear marks on the bodies (eyes and tongue lost after is likely animal scavenging). It won't account for crushing injury to the chest. And you'd expect more direct damage to the tents (though the slash marks might be hiding evidence of prior exterior attack.
Hypothermia induced issues still require them to have left the tents and the safety of their camp and also still doesn't fully explain injury.
Peaceful people can still be violent or they might have come across a group of non-native non-peaceful individuals. Smugglers/poachers etc.. An attack could scare the people from their camp in a blind panic; on the retreat they could have been simply chased until the cold did the initial work of debilitating them beyond their ability to fight back meaningfully; then the attacks throw a few good injuries (crushing from a club) to ensure that their targets were down and then left. Or, as alluded to above, they could have been impacted by vehicles and chased by them on their escape (which would certainly cause them to scatter and flee).
PS don't forget not every science lab comes from CSI/NCIS so they aren't going to be able to work out the exact cause of many injuries (and certainly not going to suddenly be able to identify the specific make, brand, lot number and purchase history of any weapons used). This is without considering any damage to the bodies post mortem whilst they were exposed to the elements before being found and collected.
The investigators ruled out an assault on the party. The main suspects, the local Mansi, were cleared. And friends of the group described the men as being "tough guys" and "not scaring easily". Even the history of the enigmatic Semyon “Alexander" Zolotaryov (fought with the dreaded NKVD Interior Ministry troops, the Soviet counterpart to the Waffen SS, during the war) points to a group that wouldn't be cowed easily by punks with clubs and knives. Since the evidence points to flight on the part of the group, if they had the strength and presence of mind to run, they were able to fight back. And the valuables belonging to the group were not taken, including money, jewlery, vodka, and camera equipment. And unless you were a Party hack, or knew somebody in your local Communist Party organs, there was little chance that you could get guns, even on the black market. Local bandits would've unlikely had access to firearms.
There were, however, items found that were then-current military issue, on the scene that allegedly weren't dropped by the troops involved in the search, weren't on any lists of items compiled by the group before departure, and not recognized by friends and family.
Just to add to oldravenman's points, assault even on exhausted people who can't fight back would still leave visible external trauma. So that also counts against people assaulting the group.
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.
As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.
There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.
Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.
Voss wrote: People in the mountains in winter panicked and died? Shocking mystery.
The mystery part is how an experienced and well prepared group ended up dead in the specific way they did. These weren't some run of the mill hikers getting lost.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.
Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.
Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.
As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.
There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.
The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.
The only elements of the story that do make sense are them undressing, since it's now pretty well known people freezing to death perceive they are burning up, the tanned skin (since the bodies were exposed for a while), and the missing tongue\etc which were likely scavengers.
Could it not be maybe some gas or some environmental force that scared them?
You can get some pretty nasty natural gas and chemicals?
Maybe somthing in the water?
Scavengers would find the bodies. Smaller anaimals, orpertunissts. If the bodies had frozen up that might explain how they where less touched. Less smell to draw anaimals. Too solid forzen to be easily eaten.
Xenomancers wrote: It's pretty odd because all the injuries are inconsistent. The missing facial parts (eyes and tounge and lips) could have been caused by animals after an event so probably shouldn't focus on that. The rest had compression injuries to the chest consistent with crushing (like they ran into a tree?) Seems kind of weird to me that they have foot tracks but they don't specify if the victims were running or walking. Also if outside people were involved they easily could have covered their tracks.
I think people had to be involved in this.
I think a group of locals scared them out of the tent - tortured a few of them by having a really fat guy sit on their chest for long periods of time - and the rest of them died to exposure. Why do some people have 1 sock or 1 shoe on? Because psycho people do psycho things sometimes.
Running into a tree wouldn't have caused the injuries that were suffered. Nor could a simple fist fight with another human, as both would have had external injuries to the soft tissues which were totally absent from the bodies. None of them had any external trauma related to death.
LordofHats wrote: I think I saw some found footage horror film about this once. Turns out it was teleporting monsters that screamed a lot, and movies never lie!
No,
Spoiler:
the surviving members of the party turned into teleporting monsters by passing back through a wormhole to drive the events that turned themselves into the monsters!
It was a Yeti, I've seen the photographs on a Discovery channel doco, and they never lie!
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.
As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.
There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.
The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.
Indeed. And adding to the strangeness is that the Mansi had all sorts of stories of caves sealed by concrete, the occasional encounters with Soviet troops out of the blue, and what sounded like a train running underground in the area.
Ouze wrote:The only elements of the story that do make sense are them undressing, since it's now pretty well known people freezing to death perceive they are burning up, the tanned skin (since the bodies were exposed for a while), and the missing tongue\etc which were likely scavengers.
What was weird about the condition of the bodies was the reaction to them by the Soviet military helicopter crews, who transported the remains. According to the accounts of some members of the search and recovery effort, upon seeing the condition of the remains, the aircrews refused to allow them on board unless further "packaging" was requisitioned. And Korotayev's account that at the Ivdel prison morgue, the staff and investigators were instructed to bathe in tubs of rubbing alcohol if they were in close proximity to the Dyatlov party remains. There were members of a government commission that arrived from Sverdlovsk and Moscow, who “seemed aware of some risks associated with being in the vicinity of the corpses" according to Korotayev, and were having a binge in the nearby village of Pershino. Instead of the usual Russian staples of alcoholic beverages and spirits, they drank a considerable amount of red wine. In the 1950's, it was thought in the Soviet Union that rubbing alcohol would wash away radioactive contamination, and red wine got rid of isotopes in the body. Soviet naval crews serving on nuclear powered November-class subs were given a cup of alcohol and swab once a week to rub themselves down with, and were told to drink red wine when on leave.
Korotayev also mentioned that one of the investigators named Tempalov was given a free pass to a resort to "recover", and they were warned that they would become impotent. The thing is that the corpses, except for the few individual items of clothing belonging to three members of the group, and Kolevatov’s heart, were free of radioactivity.
Matthew wrote: It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure
The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.
The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.
And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.
The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.
Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.
As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.
True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.
As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.
There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.
The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.
And why would they do an experiment there? The Soviet army already had plenty of designated closed areas where they could conduct experiments. Places that they could actually monitor. It is no use doing an experiment in such a remote location, you will never even be able to properly study its effects.
Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.
Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.
No offense taken.
I knew that Uralmash wasn't anywhere close. But there have been claims that it was the site of classified missile construction between 1955 and 1963, although my own reading doesn't make much mention of Cold War missile or rocket production. Only that missiles and rockets made there were tested in the Sverdlovsk Oblast in the late 1950's (hence the Ivdel sighting on 2/1/59). The only major military production of serious note in the Uralmash plant was tanks and SPGs in World War II. I may be wrong.
The main blow against the military theory is the lack of support infrastructure in the area for routine missile testing (other than Mansi campfire stories; as you pointed out it's an extremely remote location to be doing such tests). Some missile wreckage has allegedly turned up in the years since then, but those could have easily been from some far off tests targeting a remote area (where recovery wasn't part of the test, or failed tests). There hasn't been any official military installations in the area until the Soviet Airforce built a radar installation on Mount Chistop in the late 1970's (shut down in 1985). Parachute mines are recorded as being tested in the area around the same period, but there is no evidence to suggest (beyond the circumstantial) that these tests had anything to do with the deaths.
And you are absolutely right. There is a lot of tall tales and BS generated around this case. My sources are numerous, since I've been fascinated by this mystery for years. Articles, books, websites. Most of them Russian and some of the sensational, including information pertaining to the Dyatlov Foundation and it's goals. My favorite (despite the spy thriller conspiracies) is The Price of State Secrets Is Nine Lives by Anatoly Gushchin. And despite it's fictional narrative, Anna Matveyeva's The Mystery of Dyatlov Pass offer the best compilation of factual and historical information on the incident found to date.
I just love a good, creepy mystery. There are plenty of places in Russia and the Ukraine that offer just that.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.
Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.
Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.
Fluid dynamics lesson for the day... The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.
So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.
Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.
Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.
Fluid dynamics lesson for the day...
The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.
So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.
We keep coming back to sound but what about other factors?
Gases can cause issues. Some are toxic and others can starve brain of oxygen, or cause problems.
Maybe they drew water from a source that they could not tell was contaminated by some natural chemical or flora, mushrooms etc up river.?
Food seems less likely, own supplies and experiences.
Water however they would have to replenish every so often and likely all draw from the same source.
Infra sound etc is a idea but others are out there.
jhe90 wrote: We keep coming back to sound but what about other factors?
Gases can cause issues. Some are toxic and others can starve brain of oxygen, or cause problems.
Maybe they drew water from a source that they could not tell was contaminated by some natural chemical or flora, mushrooms etc up river.?
Food seems less likely, own supplies and experiences.
Water however they would have to replenish every so often and likely all draw from the same source.
Infra sound etc is a idea but others are out there.
Yeah definitely. It could even still be infrasound, it's just unlikely to be infrasound caused by Karman shedding off the mountain like wikipedia claims because, from my understanding, the frequency would be well off. It's like someone proposed the idea but then never followed through to do the back of the hand calculations on it
I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.
I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.
I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.
Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.
And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.
Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.
No offense taken.
I knew that Uralmash wasn't anywhere close. But there have been claims that it was the site of classified missile construction between 1955 and 1963, although my own reading doesn't make much mention of Cold War missile or rocket production. Only that missiles and rockets made there were tested in the Sverdlovsk Oblast in the late 1950's (hence the Ivdel sighting on 2/1/59). The only major military production of serious note in the Uralmash plant was tanks and SPGs in World War II. I may be wrong.
The main blow against the military theory is the lack of support infrastructure in the area for routine missile testing (other than Mansi campfire stories; as you pointed out it's an extremely remote location to be doing such tests). Some missile wreckage has allegedly turned up in the years since then, but those could have easily been from some far off tests targeting a remote area (where recovery wasn't part of the test, or failed tests). There hasn't been any official military installations in the area until the Soviet Airforce built a radar installation on Mount Chistop in the late 1970's (shut down in 1985). Parachute mines are recorded as being tested in the area around the same period, but there is no evidence to suggest (beyond the circumstantial) that these tests had anything to do with the deaths.
And you are absolutely right. There is a lot of tall tales and BS generated around this case. My sources are numerous, since I've been fascinated by this mystery for years. Articles, books, websites. Most of them Russian and some of the sensational, including information pertaining to the Dyatlov Foundation and it's goals. My favorite (despite the spy thriller conspiracies) is The Price of State Secrets Is Nine Lives by Anatoly Gushchin. And despite it's fictional narrative, Anna Matveyeva's The Mystery of Dyatlov Pass offer the best compilation of factual and historical information on the incident found to date.
I just love a good, creepy mystery. There are plenty of places in Russia and the Ukraine that offer just that.
I agree. Even though I am sure all of these mysteries have a perfectly mundane explanation, the stories are still highly interesting. Siberia does have a lot of mysteries going on.
Matthew wrote: It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure
The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.
Yeah - I agree with you. Deep woods people know how to track and cover their tracks. Remains the best explanation.
Necros wrote: Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?
If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.
I'm going with aliens.
Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.
Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.
Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.
Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.
Fluid dynamics lesson for the day...
The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.
So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.
The more you know, already learning from this thread, good stuff
Matthew wrote: It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure
The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.
Yeah - I agree with you. Deep woods people know how to track and cover their tracks. Remains the best explanation.
Again though, no external trauma indicates they weren't involved in violence/a fight, ruling out other people.
I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.
KTG17 wrote: I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.
I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.
I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.
Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.
And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.
Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.
Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.
KTG17 wrote: I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.
I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.
I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.
Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.
And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.
Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.
Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.
Problem being that nothing indicates a bear attack. No bear tracks and the injuries of some victims don't correspond.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.
I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.
I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.
KTG17 wrote: I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.
I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.
I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.
Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.
And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.
Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.
Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.
Im not an expert here but I think that a outdoors survivor type would know that bears are actually scared of people. They especially don't like fire. You could probably scare a bear off if you could make a torch of some kind - or if you just walked up and started yelling at it. I've been told in a situation involving a bear you shouldn't run away - you should stand up as tall as you can and spread your armys out and scream bloody murder.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.
I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.
I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.
But this is starting to reach for it. If these attackers had firearms how did some escape in the first place? On a flat snow plain how do you outrun a gun? Plus the ones with the crushing injuries were found in a ravine, so unless they were taken to be dumped there the torture angle seems out. Again no visible external trauma like you would expect from torture, as well as the fact that those with the injuries were the most well dressed. So either they were surprised and had time to get dressed to run away or their attackers let them get dressed? If they really wanted to kill the group why not just pursue? And if they had to cut open the tent to escape (indicating the front exit was out of the question) how would they have been able to evade people with guns that were already close enough to block the front door so to speak.
Again, why not make sure they all died and leave no witnesses? Why not hide all the bodies? The attacker theory makes no sense, it has way too many holes. There doesn't seem to be any motive or possible attacker as the local tribe had no such violent history.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.
I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.
I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.
But this is starting to reach for it. If these attackers had firearms how did some escape in the first place? On a flat snow plain how do you outrun a gun? Plus the ones with the crushing injuries were found in a ravine, so unless they were taken to be dumped there the torture angle seems out. Again no visible external trauma like you would expect from torture, as well as the fact that those with the injuries were the most well dressed. So either they were surprised and had time to get dressed to run away or their attackers let them get dressed? If they really wanted to kill the group why not just pursue? And if they had to cut open the tent to escape (indicating the front exit was out of the question) how would they have been able to evade people with guns that were already close enough to block the front door so to speak.
Again, why not make sure they all died and leave no witnesses? Why not hide all the bodies? The attacker theory makes no sense, it has way too many holes. There doesn't seem to be any motive or possible attacker as the local tribe had no such violent history.
Aye. The tribe could have hidden those bodies so no one would ever find them for decades.
Caves etc. Other far more concealed places. Not leave bodies where they lay..
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?
How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.
I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.
I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.
But this is starting to reach for it. If these attackers had firearms how did some escape in the first place? On a flat snow plain how do you outrun a gun? Plus the ones with the crushing injuries were found in a ravine, so unless they were taken to be dumped there the torture angle seems out. Again no visible external trauma like you would expect from torture, as well as the fact that those with the injuries were the most well dressed. So either they were surprised and had time to get dressed to run away or their attackers let them get dressed? If they really wanted to kill the group why not just pursue? And if they had to cut open the tent to escape (indicating the front exit was out of the question) how would they have been able to evade people with guns that were already close enough to block the front door so to speak.
Again, why not make sure they all died and leave no witnesses? Why not hide all the bodies? The attacker theory makes no sense, it has way too many holes. There doesn't seem to be any motive or possible attacker as the local tribe had no such violent history.
And to add a bit more to the above:
1. The injuries would have taken more than just some guys stomping the hell out of them, based on the medical examiner's conclusions.
2. The depression where the last four members were found was turned into a makeshift emergency shelter, by making bedding out of spruce branches.
3. 75 meters from the ravine shelter, was a cedar tree with the brushwood broken off as high a five meters. There was no evidence that it was for the purpose of fueling the fire pit that Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko were found next to, at the edge of the forest. It was as if somebody had climbed the tree to get a better look up the slope.
4. Igor Dyatlov, Zina Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin tried to make it back to the tent. Kolmogorova came the closest to making it. They all died of hypothermia. Slobodin had a fractured skull and some abrasions, but they were determined not to be fatal.
5. There are accounts that the livor mortis in some of the bodies were not on the side of the body pressed against the ground, indicating the possibility that someone, or something, had moved the bodies sometime between death and them being found by authorities.
1. The injuries would have taken more than just some guys stomping the hell out of them, based on the medical examiner's conclusions.
2. The depression where the last four members were found was turned into a makeshift emergency shelter, by making bedding out of spruce branches.
3. 75 meters from the ravine shelter, was a cedar tree with the brushwood broken off as high a five meters. There was no evidence that it was for the purpose of fueling the fire pit that Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko were found next to, at the edge of the forest. It was as if somebody had climbed the tree to get a better look up the slope.
4. Igor Dyatlov, Zina Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin tried to make it back to the tent. Kolmogorova came the closest to making it. They all died of hypothermia. Slobodin had a fractured skull and some abrasions, but they were determined not to be fatal.
5. There are accounts that the livor mortis in some of the bodies were not on the side of the body pressed against the ground, indicating the possibility that someone, or something, had moved the bodies sometime between death and them being found by authorities.
I think its safe to conclude it was a bear. The initial injuries may have even been what triggered the panic and for them to leave the tent in a opposite direction of the bear.
If attacked by a brown bear, your best option is to play dead and hope he loses interest and moves on. If a black bear attacks you, you fight to the death. But that isn't to say that everyone will act the same way or as recommended either. Its fight or flight, and if a few people are starting to run off, do you want to be the last one left behind? You don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. Maybe the bear hung around the campsite sniffing for food and that was what the hikers were waiting on. Time just ran out.
1. The injuries would have taken more than just some guys stomping the hell out of them, based on the medical examiner's conclusions.
2. The depression where the last four members were found was turned into a makeshift emergency shelter, by making bedding out of spruce branches.
3. 75 meters from the ravine shelter, was a cedar tree with the brushwood broken off as high a five meters. There was no evidence that it was for the purpose of fueling the fire pit that Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko were found next to, at the edge of the forest. It was as if somebody had climbed the tree to get a better look up the slope.
4. Igor Dyatlov, Zina Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin tried to make it back to the tent. Kolmogorova came the closest to making it. They all died of hypothermia. Slobodin had a fractured skull and some abrasions, but they were determined not to be fatal.
5. There are accounts that the livor mortis in some of the bodies were not on the side of the body pressed against the ground, indicating the possibility that someone, or something, had moved the bodies sometime between death and them being found by authorities.
I think its safe to conclude it was a bear. The initial injuries may have even been what triggered the panic and for them to leave the tent in a opposite direction of the bear.
If attacked by a brown bear, your best option is to play dead and hope he loses interest and moves on. If a black bear attacks you, you fight to the death. But that isn't to say that everyone will act the same way or as recommended either. Its fight or flight, and if a few people are starting to run off, do you want to be the last one left behind? You don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. Maybe the bear hung around the campsite sniffing for food and that was what the hikers were waiting on. Time just ran out.
Yeah no. If a bear attacks I am going to shoot the ever living gak out if it. I came across a bear in Cali and carried hopped up .44 rounds for that. I am surprised they didn't have a rifle if that was an issue.
1. The injuries would have taken more than just some guys stomping the hell out of them, based on the medical examiner's conclusions.
2. The depression where the last four members were found was turned into a makeshift emergency shelter, by making bedding out of spruce branches.
3. 75 meters from the ravine shelter, was a cedar tree with the brushwood broken off as high a five meters. There was no evidence that it was for the purpose of fueling the fire pit that Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko were found next to, at the edge of the forest. It was as if somebody had climbed the tree to get a better look up the slope.
4. Igor Dyatlov, Zina Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin tried to make it back to the tent. Kolmogorova came the closest to making it. They all died of hypothermia. Slobodin had a fractured skull and some abrasions, but they were determined not to be fatal.
5. There are accounts that the livor mortis in some of the bodies were not on the side of the body pressed against the ground, indicating the possibility that someone, or something, had moved the bodies sometime between death and them being found by authorities.
I think its safe to conclude it was a bear. The initial injuries may have even been what triggered the panic and for them to leave the tent in a opposite direction of the bear.
If attacked by a brown bear, your best option is to play dead and hope he loses interest and moves on. If a black bear attacks you, you fight to the death. But that isn't to say that everyone will act the same way or as recommended either. Its fight or flight, and if a few people are starting to run off, do you want to be the last one left behind? You don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. Maybe the bear hung around the campsite sniffing for food and that was what the hikers were waiting on. Time just ran out.
Yeah no. If a bear attacks I am going to shoot the ever living gak out if it. I came across a bear in Cali and carried hopped up .44 rounds for that. I am surprised they didn't have a rifle if that was an issue.
Shooting bears is for weak, decadent Westerners. We Russians fight bears by wrestling them into submission.
It painted a pretty grim picture of the Soviet police and detective force. I think it's possible that poor investigative techniques - and outright false reporting of events play a huge roll in this.
Massive internal injuries do not occur without external injuries (unless you are hit with some kind of pressure wave from a bomb - but bombs leave a lot of evidence behind...craters, ect.) People don't run from their shelter unclothed and not return unless something is preventing them (avalanches that didn't happen, and hearing sounds that aren't there don't cause this.) Professional winter outdoor survivors can make a fire in a cave. If you can make a fire you don't die on hypothermia. Nothing makes sense here.
Yeah no. If a bear attacks I am going to shoot the ever living gak out if it. I came across a bear in Cali and carried hopped up .44 rounds for that. I am surprised they didn't have a rifle if that was an issue.
I don't think they had any guns on them, at least I have never read or seen any pictures of them with any. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean everyone else does. Plus this was on Soviet times, probably difficult to have one then if you were a law abiding comrade. I've hiked in Wyoming and never carried a gun. I do carry Bear spray tho.
It painted a pretty grim picture of the Soviet police and detective force. I think it's possible that poor investigative techniques - and outright false reporting of events play a huge roll in this.
Massive internal injuries do not occur without external injuries (unless you are hit with some kind of pressure wave from a bomb - but bombs leave a lot of evidence behind...craters, ect.) People don't run from their shelter unclothed and not return unless something is preventing them (avalanches that didn't happen, and hearing sounds that aren't there don't cause this.) Professional winter outdoor survivors can make a fire in a cave. If you can make a fire you don't die on hypothermia. Nothing makes sense here.
Soviet police was generally quite competent, but they did have some massive mess-ups. Not noticeably more or less than in other European countries at the time though. There is no reason to assume poor investigative techniques here, because the same investigators have proven competent in other cases. There is also no reason why they would have needed to falsely report on this. If they had wanted to conceal something, they would have made it into some common mountaineering accident, they would not have turned it into a mystery that generated massive attention. Also, the search and investigation had so many people involved that it would have taken a pretty massive cover-up, which also means that someone would have started talking by now. But there is nothing in the official documents that have been released after the fall of the Soviet Union and the the investigators involved have said that this case was a complete mystery to them.
Of course, technology and techniques at the time were very primitive by modern standards, and the bodies as far as I understand weren't in a very good state due to exposure to the elements (the bodies of the last, injured group were only found in may, more than 2 months after they died). It is very much possible that investigators have missed injuries or that the search party never found some pieces of evidence in the snow. But there is no evidence for that, so as a theory that isn't any more or less valid than any other theories.
It painted a pretty grim picture of the Soviet police and detective force. I think it's possible that poor investigative techniques - and outright false reporting of events play a huge roll in this.
Massive internal injuries do not occur without external injuries (unless you are hit with some kind of pressure wave from a bomb - but bombs leave a lot of evidence behind...craters, ect.) People don't run from their shelter unclothed and not return unless something is preventing them (avalanches that didn't happen, and hearing sounds that aren't there don't cause this.) Professional winter outdoor survivors can make a fire in a cave. If you can make a fire you don't die on hypothermia. Nothing makes sense here.
Soviet police was generally quite competent, but they did have some massive mess-ups. Not noticeably more or less than in other European countries at the time though.
There is no reason to assume poor investigative techniques here, because the same investigators have proven competent in other cases. There is also no reason why they would have needed to falsely report on this. If they had wanted to conceal something, they would have made it into some common mountaineering accident, they would not have turned it into a mystery that generated massive attention. Also, the search and investigation had so many people involved that it would have taken a pretty massive cover-up, which also means that someone would have started talking by now. But there is nothing in the official documents that have been released after the fall of the Soviet Union and the the investigators involved have said that this case was a complete mystery to them.
Of course, technology and techniques at the time were very primitive by modern standards, and the bodies as far as I understand weren't in a very good state due to exposure to the elements (the bodies of the last, injured group were only found in may, more than 2 months after they died). It is very much possible that investigators have missed injuries or that the search party never found some pieces of evidence in the snow. But there is no evidence for that, so as a theory that isn't any more or less valid than any other theories.
"There is also no reason why they would have needed to falsely report on this. If they had wanted to conceal something, they would have made it into some common mountaineering accident, they would not have turned it into a mystery that generated massive attention."
True - though it is possible that not everyone involved was on board with a cover up and so certain things that were released could not be undone. It actually makes sense given the information we have doesn't make any kind of sense. Internal injuries without external, survival experts freezing to death, the group being scattered all over the place?
The reason I brought up citizen X was because in the movie there was a high up party guy who was deliberately disrupting a serial killer investigation because "There are no serial killers in the Soviet Union - It is a western phenomenon." This could be something similar - a terrible murder that the party leaders didn't want people to know was a terrible murder. It just makes a cover-up seem more believable to me. Also - what theory do you think holds the most weight ?
It doesn't make sense that there was any kind of coverup. Because anybody with a motive to cover up would have made effort to hide the bodies, yet no effort at all was made.
Grey Templar wrote: It doesn't make sense that there was any kind of coverup. Because anybody with a motive to cover up would have made effort to hide the bodies, yet no effort at all was made.
Heres what I was thinking.
Unknown Killers killed everyone in the group.
Local peoples found the bodies - called the police.
People in the town started talking - local police release some information.
State police (party police) show up - take over the investigation.
The group that was killed is well known - the people are asking questions.
Party mantra is Soviet is best - Only vile capitalist pigs have mass murders - we can't release that to the public.
The public already knows they are dead though - they know they suffered injuries - they know they weren't wearing all their clothing. So what do they do? They muck up the details and play dumb? Ehhh...we can't really figure it out - maybe they heard an avalanche and fell off a cliff or something? Key is - it couldn't have been murder because we found no tracks.
ehhh - terrible cover up I agree but terrible cover ups do happen.
Grey Templar wrote: It doesn't make sense that there was any kind of coverup. Because anybody with a motive to cover up would have made effort to hide the bodies, yet no effort at all was made.
Heres what I was thinking.
Unknown Killers killed everyone in the group.
Local peoples found the bodies - called the police.
People in the town started talking - local police release some information.
State police (party police) show up - take over the investigation.
The group that was killed is well known - the people are asking questions.
Party mantra is Soviet is best - Only vile capitalist pigs have mass murders - we can't release that to the public.
The public already knows they are dead though - they know they suffered injuries - they know they weren't wearing all their clothing. So what do they do? They muck up the details and play dumb? Ehhh...we can't really figure it out - maybe they heard an avalanche and fell off a cliff or something? Key is - it couldn't have been murder because we found no tracks.
ehhh - terrible cover up I agree but terrible cover ups do happen.
The problem I have with this though is all the Soviet Union/Russia needs to do to satisfy the salivating masses is say "yeah. It was a parachute bomb series we were testing, y'know, like that one theory. Pity the group strayed so far off course and into the testing ground."
And that would completely obviate the entire thing.
The fact that they didn't do that means that 1) they either started giving a gak about all the Russian government's awful things, and this one was even an accident or 2) they aren't trying to cover anything up and would like it if the case could be solved, too.
Or even better: a quote from the official report: “The radiation referred to has been identified as beta-radiation with the characteristics of isotope K-40. This is very weak contamination and certainly superficial.”
1. The injuries would have taken more than just some guys stomping the hell out of them, based on the medical examiner's conclusions.
2. The depression where the last four members were found was turned into a makeshift emergency shelter, by making bedding out of spruce branches.
3. 75 meters from the ravine shelter, was a cedar tree with the brushwood broken off as high a five meters. There was no evidence that it was for the purpose of fueling the fire pit that Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko were found next to, at the edge of the forest. It was as if somebody had climbed the tree to get a better look up the slope.
4. Igor Dyatlov, Zina Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin tried to make it back to the tent. Kolmogorova came the closest to making it. They all died of hypothermia. Slobodin had a fractured skull and some abrasions, but they were determined not to be fatal.
5. There are accounts that the livor mortis in some of the bodies were not on the side of the body pressed against the ground, indicating the possibility that someone, or something, had moved the bodies sometime between death and them being found by authorities.
I think its safe to conclude it was a bear. The initial injuries may have even been what triggered the panic and for them to leave the tent in a opposite direction of the bear.
If attacked by a brown bear, your best option is to play dead and hope he loses interest and moves on. If a black bear attacks you, you fight to the death. But that isn't to say that everyone will act the same way or as recommended either. Its fight or flight, and if a few people are starting to run off, do you want to be the last one left behind? You don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. Maybe the bear hung around the campsite sniffing for food and that was what the hikers were waiting on. Time just ran out.
Yeah no. If a bear attacks I am going to shoot the ever living gak out if it. I came across a bear in Cali and carried hopped up .44 rounds for that. I am surprised they didn't have a rifle if that was an issue.
Shooting bears is for weak, decadent Westerners. We Russians fight bears by wrestling them into submission.
Respect! Isn't wrestling bears just part of a light morning workout for grandmothers in Russia? I thought a hard work out was going back in time to WW2 and punching Tiger tanks.
(me yesterday at the Wine Store carrying a bottle of Stoli)
"Here wife, let me introduce you to the drink of my people. My people do not need bread, only vodka."
Yeah no. If a bear attacks I am going to shoot the ever living gak out if it. I came across a bear in Cali and carried hopped up .44 rounds for that. I am surprised they didn't have a rifle if that was an issue.
I don't think they had any guns on them, at least I have never read or seen any pictures of them with any. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean everyone else does. Plus this was on Soviet times, probably difficult to have one then if you were a law abiding comrade. I've hiked in Wyoming and never carried a gun. I do carry Bear spray tho.
I beleive this is Ukraine in wilderness, so simple rifles or shotguns of local variety would be permitted.
Were still on the random killer thing? How do those dots connect? I'll just repost all the holes:
Disciple of Fate wrote: If these attackers had firearms how did some escape in the first place? On a flat snow plain how do you outrun a gun? Plus the ones with the crushing injuries were found in a ravine, so unless they were taken to be dumped there the torture angle seems out. Again no visible external trauma like you would expect from torture, as well as the fact that those with the injuries were the most well dressed. So either they were surprised and had time to get dressed to run away or their attackers let them get dressed? If they really wanted to kill the group why not just pursue? And if they had to cut open the tent to escape (indicating the front exit was out of the question) how would they have been able to evade people with guns that were already close enough to block the front door so to speak.
Again, why not make sure they all died and leave no witnesses? Why not hide all the bodies?
Motivation wise? The 'killers' did it for the laughs? Just cause, only once and went after 9 people at once?
Dont forget the fact that one women had her eyes cut out, and her tngue cut out too. while she was alive(Because she had blood in her stomach, which meant her heart was still pumping when the tongue was cut out.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Dont forget the fact that one women had her eyes cut out, and her tngue cut out too. while she was alive(Because she had blood in her stomach, which meant her heart was still pumping when the tongue was cut out.
I don't believe it. That screams post mortem animals.
Has anyone attempted to contact agents Mulder and Scully to check this out. The Truth is Out There!
hotsauceman1 wrote: Dont forget the fact that one women had her eyes cut out, and her tngue cut out too. while she was alive(Because she had blood in her stomach, which meant her heart was still pumping when the tongue was cut out.
I don't believe it. That screams post mortem animals.
Has anyone attempted to contact agents Mulder and Scully to check this out. The Truth is Out There!
There is also the part saying she was lying face down in a stream and that the loss of her features was due to putrefaction.
Grey Templar wrote: It doesn't make sense that there was any kind of coverup. Because anybody with a motive to cover up would have made effort to hide the bodies, yet no effort at all was made.
Heres what I was thinking.
Unknown Killers killed everyone in the group.
Local peoples found the bodies - called the police.
People in the town started talking - local police release some information.
State police (party police) show up - take over the investigation.
The group that was killed is well known - the people are asking questions.
Party mantra is Soviet is best - Only vile capitalist pigs have mass murders - we can't release that to the public.
The public already knows they are dead though - they know they suffered injuries - they know they weren't wearing all their clothing. So what do they do? They muck up the details and play dumb? Ehhh...we can't really figure it out - maybe they heard an avalanche and fell off a cliff or something? Key is - it couldn't have been murder because we found no tracks.
ehhh - terrible cover up I agree but terrible cover ups do happen.
Actually, it was one of the hikers who had to turn back early who notified the authorities when they didn't call in at some point. Took a couple of weeks I think, but that's how people began to suspect something went wrong.
Gotta think how lucky that one guy was who was forced to turn back. :|
Automatically Appended Next Post: There were reports of a flash in the sky by others in the area too. Not sure if that would set off a panic to cut your way out of a tent as opposed to going out the front, unless everyone was trying to leave at once and someone cut his own way out.
Some cool diagrams on google, if you search on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess if they found the footprints leaving the tent, they would have seen bear prints too. So I guess there goes that theory.
Something prevented them from running to the store by the river Auspia. Four people tried to set up a new camp in the snow, but died from the injuries received simultaneously. Three (with Dyatlov) for some reason tried to go back to the tent. But they went one by one. Two stayed at the fire (to give a guide when the three come back? But they did not fear that the bonfire would draw attention to what they were from)
Necros wrote:What if they were drop bears? Drop bears leave no foot prints
