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Post by: Naaris
Tau are a dogs breakfast now. for a 1 trick army they perform that trick poorly.
Tau are not a horde army. They are a tactical strikeforce that use intelligence and superior technology to defeat their foes that usually outnumber them greatly.
Spikeybits terrified me with this article - https://spikeybits.com/2017/12/5-reasons-why-gw-doesnt-read-their-own-lore.html
The reason it shook me was that I read this on WH community a few weeks ago - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/19/coming-soon-new-battleforces-christmas-chapter-approved-new-varnish/
and I quote - For Warhammer 40,000, there are battleforces for the Orks, Genestealer Cults, Astra Militarum and T’au Empire. Each of these armies is known for its high model-count, and these battleforces make collecting them that much simpler;
Tau....High Model Count????
Yikes.
Did anyone else notice this? I'm not religious but I'll pray to any god that will listen. Tau are not a horde army. Drone spam is byproduct of bad rules and design. We like our suits and tanks.
Tau Shoot and our shooting is bad now, Tau units across the board are too expensive and we're also not as mobile as we used to be. These 3 things need to be fixed.
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Post by: Bharring
Tau British Imperial Line style have a lot of Firewarriors. Firewarrior-heavy armies can have reasonably-high model counts.
I actually don't like suits much in my Tau. I like Firewarrirors (Carbines and Rifles) backed by some tanks. It's probably one of the higher-modelcount armies I've played. Not near the level of the others in the list, but more than SM/GK/CWE/etc.
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Post by: Martel732
I play against firewarrior spam a LOT. They are a high model count army if you want them to be.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Your first mistake is reading Spikeybits. They also don't use "intelligence", they use technology. The reason it shook me was that I read this on WH community a few weeks ago - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/19/coming-soon-new-battleforces-christmas-chapter-approved-new-varnish/ and I quote - For Warhammer 40,000, there are battleforces for the Orks, Genestealer Cults, Astra Militarum and T’au Empire. Each of these armies is known for its high model-count, and these battleforces make collecting them that much simpler;
Tau....High Model Count???? Yikes. Did anyone else notice this? I'm not religious but I'll pray to any god that will listen. Tau are not a horde army. Drone spam is byproduct of bad rules and design. We like our suits and tanks. Tau Shoot and our shooting is bad now, Tau units across the board are too expensive and we're also not as mobile as we used to be. These 3 things need to be fixed.
Tau, as a faction by themselves not taking into account Farsight Enclaves, is a faction that has a large quantity of models when played to the fluff. You're talking about squads of Drones operating with Fire Warrior Teams, Stealth Teams operating in the forefront, Pathfinders operating from concealed positions, Devilfish on the field, Crisis Teams held in reserve, Broadsides operating in the rear, etc. It's also worth noting that while someone says "high model count" there was also a bit in the Community article about the expenses of the army. Kharadron Overlords and Stormcast Eternals aren't known for horde armies either. That Tau Empire box is playable in a very fluffy manner as well, able to represent a Mont'ka led by a Commander.
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Post by: Galas
Tau aren't a horde army, I agree. But they aren't a elite low count style army.
They are on the middle ground. You can go more horde-like with drones, kroots and firewarrior spam, or more elite with Suits spam, but the "typical" style is infantry, with auxiliares, suits for support and tanks.
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Post by: John Prins
Fire Warriors are supposed to be the mainstay of Tau forces. Drones are used extensively because a dead drone is not a dead Tau. Kroot Mercs are used in decently large numbers.
Tau armies can easily field lots of models without being un-fluffy or ineffective. It's not all big robots and skimmers.
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Post by: Dantioch
But when has spikeybits last produced content of note? Most of their stuff just seem to be baseless bashing of GW
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Post by: pm713
Compared to what I play Tau are a high model army. They aren't a horde army like Tyranids but they definitely can have a high model count.
I've never really thought Tau win with better technology considering there are a few factions with outright better technology and Tau are only markedly better than Orks and Tyranids. They just adapt quickly with tactics and such.
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Post by: FreeFrag.UK
First of all I'll just start off by saying I'm not a Tau player although I plan to create a Tau army at some point in the near future.
From what I've read so far I'm not really sure where you've got your assessment of their tech from pm713. Their tech seems to be somewhere between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, falling below in certain areas but only slightly.
Looking at the current Index for Tau it appears as though there is the capability to run them in some sizeable numbers but it also looks entirely feasible to run smaller forces. Something stated earlier in the thread.
I've seen it mentioned that shield drones took a hit in one of the errata's which have been released, something which is hardly productive as I don't think these were over-performing, admittedly I may be mistaken on this.
At this point in time I'd argue that it's very much a case of wait and see. While the Index can act as a potential indicator of what to expect from the Codex, the Index is by no means the final product. My main hope for the Codex will contain more expansive rules including the Tau Empire, The Farsight Enclaves and (hopefully) rules for fielding a wider array of auxiliaries. One thing which acts to distinguish the Tau from almost every other race is their willingness and acceptance other races, as long as they adopt their philosophies and rules.
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Post by: Galas
Really, the race with the most advanced technology are the Necrons.
Eldar are less technology and more magic. Most of their stuff his psychic based one way or another, even when is made by their bone-stuff. But combining science and magic they are ahead of Tau.
In the low end (Basic weapons, vehicles, etc...) Tau is better than the Imperium, but the Imperium is better in the big stuff (Space ships, Titans, giant tanks) and their old techonology from the Great Crusade is better than Tau Technology, but of course those are relics and they can't produce more. Space Marine stuff is better than Tau stuff, but are much much rare (Theres a reason why terminator armours are reliqs) and much more difficult to produce that even the best and rarest Tau equipement.
Thats why the lore for their "special" weapons and units is different. When one unit is "rare" in the Imperium ,is because they are reliqs lost to time, and theres a small number of them on the Imperium. When some Tau unit like the Ghostkeel or the Stormsurge or the Coldstar or Shadowsun armour are "rare", is because they are prototipes and are still in test phase before entering production.
But as pm713 said, the biggest difference of the Tau is that all the other races that use "technology" are stangnant. Tau are actively trying to improve their technology. The Dark Mechanicus is the other force in the galaxy that doesn't stop from improving their technology, but like Eldar they are more of mixing magic with Technology, and they are much less centralized than the Tau, so is more crazy engineers doing their personal toys instead of a whole race working together to improve their technological level.
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Post by: pm713
 FreeFrag.UK wrote:First of all I'll just start off by saying I'm not a Tau player although I plan to create a Tau army at some point in the near future.
From what I've read so far I'm not really sure where you've got your assessment of their tech from pm713. Their tech seems to be somewhere between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, falling below in certain areas but only slightly.
Looking at the current Index for Tau it appears as though there is the capability to run them in some sizeable numbers but it also looks entirely feasible to run smaller forces. Something stated earlier in the thread.
I've seen it mentioned that shield drones took a hit in one of the errata's which have been released, something which is hardly productive as I don't think these were over-performing, admittedly I may be mistaken on this.
At this point in time I'd argue that it's very much a case of wait and see. While the Index can act as a potential indicator of what to expect from the Codex, the Index is by no means the final product. My main hope for the Codex will contain more expansive rules including the Tau Empire, The Farsight Enclaves and (hopefully) rules for fielding a wider array of auxiliaries. One thing which acts to distinguish the Tau from almost every other race is their willingness and acceptance other races, as long as they adopt their philosophies and rules.
Well above them are Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necrons.
Overall they about tie with the Imperium as each one can be called ahead in certain areas.
Below them are the obvious Orks who use junk with magic and Tyranids who just don't have technology.
Have I missed a faction there? I just bundled the Imperium together because listing every sub faction out takes forever and they use the same technology priest people for everything.
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Post by: Galas
The logical conclusion for Tau is one of two possibilities:
-They end like Necrons with a mastery of psychic and technology so great that is even better than magic, but without the problems of being incapable of "reproducing", etc...
-They end being eaten by a Tyranid Hive Fleet.
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Post by: pm713
The second one seems more likely to me seeing as they would have been eaten already if the Imperium hadn't awkwardly plot armoured in with Gorgon.
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Post by: Galas
I don't like terms like "Plot armor". You just need to read a little of history to see a giant list of examples of things that in a fantasy story could have been called "Deus Ex Machina" or "Plot Armor": But many times, things just happen that way.
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Post by: Bharring
My favorite is when Alexander got pissed his guys were taking time capturing a port city, so just went up the walls in the next assault, and took the city.
I mean, that's the kind of gakky writing we expect of GW, not history.
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Post by: pm713
 Galas wrote:I don't like terms like "Plot armor". You just need to read a little of history to see a giant list of examples of things that in a fantasy story could have been called "Deus Ex Machina" or "Plot Armor": But many times, things just happen that way.
The issue is history happens that way because of chance or someone had a good idea whereas with writing it feels a lot more like it's been written to save someone through silly levels of luck. I mean, Gorgon was stopped by a new army time travelling in from the past!
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Post by: Galas
I have never been a fan of time traveling, to be honest, but the way Warhammer does it is my favourite one.
I love the Ork Warboss that traveled to the past and killed himsellf so he could have two copies of his favourite shoota.
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Post by: pm713
That is why Orks should be allowed time travel.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Not sure what the deal is now, but once upon a time, the background was that Orks were the leaders in using teleportation and force field technology. Lifta-droppas, bubble chukkas and shokk attack guns were all examples. the shokk attack gun is basically a man-portable webway tunnel generator.
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Post by: Ordana
Galas wrote:The logical conclusion for Tau is one of two possibilities:
-They end like Necrons with a mastery of psychic and technology so great that is even better than magic, but without the problems of being incapable of "reproducing", etc...
-They end being eaten by a Tyranid Hive Fleet.
Really? Because to me the Tau look to go the same way as humanity did.
Rapid technological advance, into Dark Age as they go to far, into something?(possibly extinction).
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Post by: Galas
Well yeah, they can end having their own war agaisn't their IA's like humans did , and then be destroyed by warpstorms.
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Post by: kastelen
Galas wrote:Really, the race with the most advanced technology are the Necrons.
Eldar are less technology and more magic. Most of their stuff his psychic based one way or another, even when is made by their bone-stuff. But combining science and magic they are ahead of Tau.
In the low end (Basic weapons, vehicles, etc...) Tau is better than the Imperium, but the Imperium is better in the big stuff (Space ships, Titans, giant tanks) and their old techonology from the Great Crusade is better than Tau Technology, but of course those are relics and they can't produce more. Space Marine stuff is better than Tau stuff, but are much much rare (Theres a reason why terminator armours are reliqs) and much more difficult to produce that even the best and rarest Tau equipement.
Thats why the lore for their "special" weapons and units is different. When one unit is "rare" in the Imperium ,is because they are reliqs lost to time, and theres a small number of them on the Imperium. When some Tau unit like the Ghostkeel or the Stormsurge or the Coldstar or Shadowsun armour are "rare", is because they are prototipes and are still in test phase before entering production.
But as pm713 said, the biggest difference of the Tau is that all the other races that use "technology" are stangnant. Tau are actively trying to improve their technology. The Dark Mechanicus is the other force in the galaxy that doesn't stop from improving their technology, but like Eldar they are more of mixing magic with Technology, and they are much less centralized than the Tau, so is more crazy engineers doing their personal toys instead of a whole race working together to improve their technological level.
Lucius, Mars and Stygies are making new technology.
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Post by: Galas
Yeah, now with Cawl and Ruboute admech has started again to innovate in a coordinate and big form. But we don't talk much about the new lore of the universe...
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Post by: Vector Strike
I've played a number of Tau 8th games (when everything was in indexes). To me, it seems GW is trying to force Tau to be the 'Xenos AM' - lots of models and vehicles, with some Elite support.
But Tau are much closer to SM than AM in playstyle - at least it was as I've been playing with them since 6th. You got some troops to hold objectives, transports to ferry them and tanks to poke some holes around, but the real deal is Elites.
Also, when you read about Tau tactics, they love being mobile and denying the enemy crushing victories. Mont'ka (kill something important to send the enemy in disarray) is more or less well represented in the rules, but Kauyon (wait for the right moment to strike at the weakest point) isn't.
All it does is 'if you don't move, get X or do Y' - but staying put isn't Kauyon! Kauyon is about the ambush - stealth, suprise attacks, guerrilla fight, etc. But all the rules do on this matter is to create boring gunlines.
I think Tau needs a serious revamp on its faction rules. All this 'stay put to get a bonus' should go away, unless it gave bonuses that really represented an undetected ambush - unit cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if within 12" of an enemy unit, if it is in cover and has not moved, for example. Or giving them -1 to be hit if within 12" (basically, the opposite of Raven Guard CT).
Better yet, at the start of your turn declare which units are using Kauyon and which ones are using Mont'ka (even those in reserves) (Mont'ka and Kauyon rules would appear in the same place where Markerlight and Supporting Fire are); Kauyon gives something, Mont'ka gives something else.
This way, you could represent better how the Tau way of war is shifty and adaptable to the conditions of the battle.
Tau don't do high model count well because it has very few options to deal with morale (IIRC, only Ethereals do something on the matter). MSU works better (even now that markerlight tokens aren't expended), and, well... MSU benefits Elite armies more than horde ones.
There's a reason Commander + drones + Y'vhara is the premier list for Tau now... it works even without markerlights. Firewarrior spam can do something in a casual meta, but won't go very far in any group that doesn't rein in their horses.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kauyon is "The Patient Hunter". It's always involved not "ambush--stealth, surprise attacks, guerilla fights, etc"(that's more Mont'ka) but rather leaving bait out to entice the enemy in.
It's long been fluffed that Kauyon is an "ultimate expression of the Greater Good" as it involves all the units and forces involved working in perfect harmony to ensure that the bait isn't just left out to die. Everyone plays their part to perfection or as near to it as possible. Senseless casualties aren't acceptable.
There's been an element of the idea of ambush tactics attached to it since it is Shadowsun's schtick and her preference for Stealth Teams to serve as the whole "Patient Hunter" part of the deal opens the door for that to be a thing.
If you want Kauyon to be truly fluffy? Characters that enact Kauyon must be targeted by enemy units, but Supporting Fire can be used against shooting attacks as well as on Overwatch.
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Post by: Wayniac
IMHO the real problem with Tau is that they changed the army from being a place to add in minor xenos races as auxiliary to "mecha". The original concept of the Tau back in 3rd, while it had anime influence, was that the battlesuits were there as support, basically mobile weapons platforms (similar to how we now have Aggressors or Centurions for Marines, which didnt exist then) and the main army support for the Fire Warriors were auxiliary races like the Kroot, Vespids, etc.
They should go back to that. Tau should not be mostly about giant mechas and battlesuits, but about various specialized alien races to let the army perform different roles. Battlesuits can be part of the army (they are, after all the way to get special/heavy weapons typically) but shouldn't be the focus.
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Post by: dosiere
Never played or owned tau myself, but my personal experience has been riptide/battlesuit spam every time. Wouldn't mind seeing more of the infantry options on the table.
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Post by: FreeFrag.UK
Apologies pm713, it was late and the way I read your post didn't come across the same way as your reiteration of your point. Bit of brain fog it seems on my part.
I must admit that I largely agree with Vector's assessment, at this point in time GW need to do some serious thinking when it comes to the rules supporting Tau.
With regard to Tau and morale, I can't really say that I've ever read anything on the subject. Given the Fire Caste are bred to be soldiers I would have thought that their morale would be a bit harder to break than that of rank and file guardsmen.
I would also argue that the turrets should be mobile to a degree, at present the turrets which Strike/Breacher Teams can bring to support themselves force them to entrench. As previously stated Tau supposedly favour mobility but this is far from supported, in many ways it actually seems as though this is discouraged. I'd also suggest a general review of Tau weapon systems as some of them seem to be a bit lacklustre.
As one final thought, and perhaps a controversial one, perhaps the addition of a new battlesuit (yes, I know suits are over used at present) but something which gives Tau a reasonable melee option in addition to the Kroot meat shields. Given their technology is far from stagnant it wouldn't strike me as being unreasonable for new optics/sensor systems to be developed which can compensate for Tau visual issues in CQC. This is something which could also be addressed through rules as an alternative, using current suit options.
On a side note can anyone explain to me why the Kroot equivalent to a sergeant is an elite option? And why is it Kroot, who are melee specialists, receive WS 3+ yet Tau Strike/Breacher's have BS 4+ when they're ranged specialists?
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Post by: Jaxler
FreeFrag.UK wrote:Apologies pm713, it was late and the way I read your post didn't come across the same way as your reiteration of your point. Bit of brain fog it seems on my part.
I must admit that I largely agree with Vector's assessment, at this point in time GW need to do some serious thinking when it comes to the rules supporting Tau.
With regard to Tau and morale, I can't really say that I've ever read anything on the subject. Given the Fire Caste are bred to be soldiers I would have thought that their morale would be a bit harder to break than that of rank and file guardsmen.
I would also argue that the turrets should be mobile to a degree, at present the turrets which Strike/Breacher Teams can bring to support themselves force them to entrench. As previously stated Tau supposedly favour mobility but this is far from supported, in many ways it actually seems as though this is discouraged. I'd also suggest a general review of Tau weapon systems as some of them seem to be a bit lacklustre.
As one final thought, and perhaps a controversial one, perhaps the addition of a new battlesuit (yes, I know suits are over used at present) but something which gives Tau a reasonable melee option in addition to the Kroot meat shields. Given their technology is far from stagnant it wouldn't strike me as being unreasonable for new optics/sensor systems to be developed which can compensate for Tau visual issues in CQC. This is something which could also be addressed through rules as an alternative, using current suit options.
On a side note can anyone explain to me why the Kroot equivalent to a sergeant is an elite option? And why is it Kroot, who are melee specialists, receive WS 3+ yet Tau Strike/Breacher's have BS 4+ when they're ranged specialists?
In old editions tau were base bs4+ because markerlights were important and could allow you to circumvent the crappy bs, and allowed smart use of them to make you extremely capable.
Now tau units cost as much as they should if the old markerlight system was in place, while also nerfing markerlights to irrelevancy.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Wayniac wrote:IMHO the real problem with Tau is that they changed the army from being a place to add in minor xenos races as auxiliary to "mecha". The original concept of the Tau back in 3rd, while it had anime influence, was that the battlesuits were there as support, basically mobile weapons platforms (similar to how we now have Aggressors or Centurions for Marines, which didnt exist then) and the main army support for the Fire Warriors were auxiliary races like the Kroot, Vespids, etc. They should go back to that. Tau should not be mostly about giant mechas and battlesuits, but about various specialized alien races to let the army perform different roles. Battlesuits can be part of the army (they are, after all the way to get special/heavy weapons typically) but shouldn't be the focus.
This is incorrect. Even going back to the initial Tau book, Battlesuits played a large role. Kroot Auxiliaries were there as well, but Kroot (and the later added Vespid) are supposed to be not "mainstays" of the army but rather specialized support.
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Post by: FreeFrag.UK
Out of curiosity do people think we will see more named commanders added? Especially given Tau lifespans, the time jump for the story and given that (only example I can think of, sorry) the Farsight enclave feature 8 known named commanders each with their own specialised suits and tactical preferences.
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Post by: Vector Strike
People have been asking for Shas'O Kais (from Dawn of War) for a looong time.
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Post by: Jaxler
He was trained by puretde along with Shadowsun and farsight
He killed a fething lord of change in single combat
He’s in dawn of war
Can we please give this guy a model?
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Post by: John Prins
I'd like to see a Tau redeployment option somewhere between a Devilfish (expensive but durable and shooty skimmer transport) and Tidewall (slow open topped transport), that could enable truly 'mobile' warfare.
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Post by: Bharring
I'm hoping the Devilfish becomes more viable. It's always been a nice little tank, with a great place in basically any army that isn't Tau.
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Post by: Shas'O'Ceris
I'm hoping Tidewall becomes viable. Allowing embarked units top shoot ml without heavy penalty would be very nice. Shield wall getting an invuln so it can use it's reflection ability too.
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Post by: Colonel Cross
Tau need something. I've played my best friend's Tau with my Imperial Guard many times and even with Index it was GG at list building. I haven't played him post guard codex, but I would suspect its far worse for him now.
Seems like their codex is not far over the horizon so I hope they manage to find a way to make them fun, fluffy, and balanced. Both my best friend and I hated Riptide spam. He only JUST bought a Stormsurge finally.
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Post by: Hollow
I frequently take large amounts of Firewarriors (60/100) in a 2k list. I'm not a fan of small suit lists that became all the rage with Riptides in 7th. T'au may not have as many models as the true horde armies of Guard/Nids/Orks but they should significantly outnumber the small elite forces. I've also won a good 60/70% of the games I have played in 8th and while I look forward to some adjustments in their new codex I really don't understand the continual "T'au are terrible in 8th" stuff I read on Dakka all the time.
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Post by: Bach
Honestly, they need to rework markerlights. Also, battlesuits could remain the same points as of right now - if they increased their ballistic skill. For example, Crisis Suits should be BS 3+, Broadsides BS 3+, and Riptides should be a B.S. 2+ for their existing points. Aside from the flavor of having markerlights to shoot better, it makes no sense to have these advanced suits, piloted by supposedly better soldiers, shoot no better than Firewarriors or Kroot.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Galas wrote:I have never been a fan of time traveling, to be honest, but the way Warhammer does it is my favourite one.
I love the Ork Warboss that traveled to the past and killed himsellf so he could have two copies of his favourite shoota.
Doble suppa shoota is best! 
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Post by: Grimgold
I feel like there is plenty of room in the tau fluff for both horde and elite armies, since the current Tau offering are like Xenos AM and Xenos SM smooshed into a single army. The battle suit offerings have gotten a lot more attention in prior editions, and I love the fact that fire warriors and auxiliaries might get some time in the sun in this edition. if balance changes need to be made to make both play styles viable I think they should be made.
As for the fluff future of the Tau, I actually think they are getting close to their peak, their increasing reliance on AI is setting them up for a men of Iron style fall. We already have mentions of rogue drone networks. There is also lots of talk about how ambitious the Tau are, and how that has made them reckless in their use and advancement of technology. So I think they are on the bubble, and if they have a major problem (like an AI uprising) they will be crushed under the weight of an uncaring (if not actively malignant) universe.
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Post by: Alcibiades
Tau markerlights (and the whole army in fact) are currently clearly meant to emphasize the tactic of concentrated fire on a single target, as opposed to the previous paradigm of piecemeal application of markerlights on this and that. That's why for instance one of the effects is "remove penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons" -- it allows you to get over to the target that has been designated for concentrated fire and shoot at it.
Whether GW has implemented this successfully is a matter to be debated, but it's not at all a case of a simple markerlight nerf. They do something quite different now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, even "Reroll 1's" is a 1/6 increase in damage output, and to get a Hammerhead or Stormsurge or Razorshark to a 97% chance to hit with no cover now takes 5 markerlights rather than 10.
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Post by: Infantryman
(MOAR GUE'VESA )
M.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
The thought of filling up a xenos army with human representatives gives me the same sick feeling as the rumors of loyalist Thousand Sons in the upcoming Prospero book...
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Post by: Eihnlazer
Tau are pretty strong right now if your not doing mechanized. This list works very well againgst everything except for flyer spam or Toughness 8 4+ invun spam.
+++ Tautrue (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [97 PL, 2000pts] +++
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) ++
+ HQ +
Commander: 2x Fusion blaster, Multi-tracker, 2x MV4 Shield Drone, Velocity tracker
+ Heavy Support +
Heavy Gun Drone Squadron
. 6x Heavy Gun Drone w/ BC & Markerlight: 6x Burst cannon, 6x Markerlight
Heavy Gun Drone Squadron
. 6x Heavy Gun Drone w/ BC & Markerlight: 6x Burst cannon, 6x Markerlight
XV88 Broadside Battlesuits
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Smart missile system, Advanced targeting system, Early warning override, Heavy rail rifle
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Smart missile system, Advanced targeting system, Early warning override, Heavy rail rifle
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Smart missile system, Advanced targeting system, Early warning override, Heavy rail rifle
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) ++
+ HQ +
Commander: Advanced targeting system, 2x Missile pod, Multi-tracker
Commander: Advanced targeting system, 2x Missile pod, Multi-tracker
+ Troops +
Breacher Team: 9x Fire Warrior, Fire Warrior Shas'ui, MV36 Guardian Drone
Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot
Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) ++
+ HQ +
Cadre Fireblade: Markerlight, 2x MV4 Shield Drone
Ethereal: Equalizers, Hover Drone, 2x MV4 Shield Drone
+ Troops +
Strike Team: DS8 Tactical Support Turret w/ Missile pod, MV36 Guardian Drone, MV4 Shield Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team: MV36 Guardian Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team: MV36 Guardian Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
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Post by: pm713
 Arachnofiend wrote:
The thought of filling up a xenos army with human representatives gives me the same sick feeling as the rumors of loyalist Thousand Sons in the upcoming Prospero book...
What's wrong with Loyal 1k Sons?
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Post by: Eihnlazer
Thousand sons were the legion that least wanted to join chaos out of the traiter legions (unless you count Alpharius and Omega, which we don't know who they are allied with).
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Post by: Vankraken
pm713 wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:
The thought of filling up a xenos army with human representatives gives me the same sick feeling as the rumors of loyalist Thousand Sons in the upcoming Prospero book...
What's wrong with Loyal 1k Sons?
They do have the tendency for looting relics at a rate which would turn a deathskull green....er with envy.
As to the OP, I think Tau returning to their roots of being a combined arms focused faction is a good thing instead of being the 40k Mobile Suit Gundam faction. Fire Warriors can be fielded in large numbers along with pathfinders, drones, and their alien auxiliaries (although Kroot really struggle at having a viable place on the battlefield given their lackluster rule set currently). Tau aren't at blob guard or green tide model count sizes but having 70+ Fire Warriors in a list gives a ton of bodies while still having plenty of points for the Tau specialist units such as Hammerheads, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, etc. I have had great success with my Tau using such a setup in 7th edition and to a lesser extent in 8th (Tau's biggest issue right now is that the specialist units like Crisis Suits, Riptides, and Broadsides are woefully overcosted).
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Post by: John Prins
Kroot have a place...cheap area denial thanks to that scouting move of theirs. I miss dangerous in woods Kroot.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
i dont think infantry spam is what will happend to tau in the new codex, cuz if that is gw`s goal, why is the new battleforce box nothing but mechsuits and drones?
72525
Post by: Vector Strike
 FrozenDwarf wrote:i dont think infantry spam is what will happend to tau in the new codex, cuz if that is gw`s goal, why is the new battleforce box nothing but mechsuits and drones?
If there's a word that rarely enters the mind of GW, it's consistency
108848
Post by: Blackie
Naaris wrote:Tau are a dogs breakfast now. for a 1 trick army they perform that trick poorly.
Tau are not a horde army. They are a tactical strikeforce that use intelligence and superior technology to defeat their foes that usually outnumber them greatly.
Spikeybits terrified me with this article - https://spikeybits.com/2017/12/5-reasons-why-gw-doesnt-read-their-own-lore.html
The reason it shook me was that I read this on WH community a few weeks ago - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/19/coming-soon-new-battleforces-christmas-chapter-approved-new-varnish/
and I quote - For Warhammer 40,000, there are battleforces for the Orks, Genestealer Cults, Astra Militarum and T’au Empire. Each of these armies is known for its high model-count, and these battleforces make collecting them that much simpler;
Tau....High Model Count????
Yikes.
Did anyone else notice this? I'm not religious but I'll pray to any god that will listen. Tau are not a horde army. Drone spam is byproduct of bad rules and design. We like our suits and tanks.
Tau Shoot and our shooting is bad now, Tau units across the board are too expensive and we're also not as mobile as we used to be. These 3 things need to be fixed.
Honestly I couldn't stand the Tau lists with only a few huge dudes, those armies were a mistake than needed to be fixed, regardless of the OPness of the suits.
A Tau army with a significant number of fire warriors, kroot, stealth, crisis, vehicles and eventually a few big guys looks amazing IMHO.
113789
Post by: FreeFrag.UK
Out curiosity, can anyone tell me the point of the Skyray? I've looked at it compared to the Whirldwind (don't have the IG codex) and the Skyray just doesn't seem worthwhile at all.
It costs almost twice the PL (sorry, I don't play points anymore) and the big selling point is incredibly limited usage with a shocking hit roll requirement.
I only ask as Tau will be my next force and when it now comes to my heavies I'm looking at either broadsides or maybe a hammerhead or two.
I've posted this here given the discussion relates to improving Tau and the Skyray just seems like a complete waste of points and money.
103666
Post by: FrozenDwarf
 Blackie wrote:
Honestly I couldn't stand the Tau lists with only a few huge dudes, those armies were a mistake than needed to be fixed, regardless of the OPness of the suits.
A Tau army with a significant number of fire warriors, kroot, stealth, crisis, vehicles and eventually a few big guys looks amazing IMHO.
The same can be said about 4 nights or 3 baneblade lists that is still around.
Front yard ornament!
6 missiles only doing 1 mortal wound that are 1 time use....... even whit 2 markerlight buff it is junk as it is not guaranteed hit/wounds.
removing the 1 use limitation on the missiles is a must to make it atleast usable whit point cost increase ofc.
72525
Post by: Vector Strike
FreeFrag.UK wrote:Out curiosity, can anyone tell me the point of the Skyray? I've looked at it compared to the Whirldwind (don't have the IG codex) and the Skyray just doesn't seem worthwhile at all.
It costs almost twice the PL (sorry, I don't play points anymore) and the big selling point is incredibly limited usage with a shocking hit roll requirement.
I only ask as Tau will be my next force and when it now comes to my heavies I'm looking at either broadsides or maybe a hammerhead or two.
I've posted this here given the discussion relates to improving Tau and the Skyray just seems like a complete waste of points and money.
The most expensive markerlight platform.
112239
Post by: SilverAlien
I'd actually say the quote is fairly accurate. If you go with a mix of unit types Tau model count will be around where GSC or even orks are.
Keep in mind that Tau basic infantry are extremely unlikely to stay at 8ppm when their codex drops, admech rangers have gone from 10ppm all the way down to 7ppm, and trade the lower strength on their gun for an invulnerable save, better ws/bs, and the occasional -1 AP. Basic Tau infantry could easily be 6/7 ppm when the codex rolls around. Meaning an infantry focused Tau will have a similar model count to an ork horde. Then again, they've managed to cut the price of plague marines three times without realizing how close they are getting to the price of normal CSMs, so who knows.
Now, fewer people run fire warrior heavy, just by virtue of Tau battlesuits having been very good for quite a while, but again ork armies have historically also used more than just boyz, that's a byproduct of the edition favoring hordes and the other options for orkz being particularly poor. Given how infantry heavy the game is, I imagine we will be seeing Tau "hordes" at some point post codex as well.
108848
Post by: Blackie
FrozenDwarf wrote:
The same can be said about 4 nights or 3 baneblade lists that is still around.
Of course, those are mistakes that should be fixed. IMHO one single LoW should be allowed in 3000+ points games, having 3 in smaller formats is silly. But as long as this built is legal I can only complain about that.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Conversions, mostly. I've seen people do some neat conversions with the Sky Ray parts, like making Remora drones out of the turret and some spare burst cannons. But rules-wise it's a pointless unit, and will continue to be one as long as seeker missiles are trash. Represent the Sky Ray accurately according to the fluff, where its load of six seeker missiles likely results in at least 4-5 dead aircraft attempting to enter its no-fly zone, and it will be relevant again.
72525
Post by: Vector Strike
SilverAlien wrote:I'd actually say the quote is fairly accurate. If you go with a mix of unit types Tau model count will be around where GSC or even orks are.
Keep in mind that Tau basic infantry are extremely unlikely to stay at 8ppm when their codex drops, admech rangers have gone from 10ppm all the way down to 7ppm, and trade the lower strength on their gun for an invulnerable save, better ws/ bs, and the occasional -1 AP. Basic Tau infantry could easily be 6/7 ppm when the codex rolls around. Meaning an infantry focused Tau will have a similar model count to an ork horde. Then again, they've managed to cut the price of plague marines three times without realizing how close they are getting to the price of normal CSMs, so who knows.
Now, fewer people run fire warrior heavy, just by virtue of Tau battlesuits having been very good for quite a while, but again ork armies have historically also used more than just boyz, that's a byproduct of the edition favoring hordes and the other options for orkz being particularly poor. Given how infantry heavy the game is, I imagine we will be seeing Tau "hordes" at some point post codex as well.
Hmm, 6ppm Firewarriors would be neat. For now Drones are simply better
110703
Post by: Galas
I think Tau Firewarriors for 6ppm are too good. I put Firewarriors in the opposite balance plate than Ork Boyz . Ones are the cheap ultra-shooting unit, the other the cheap ultra-meele unit.
Mathematically, Ork Boyz have better stats at everything than Tau Firewarriors, but I believe Shooting has many, many advantages over meele, and they have two key advantages over boyz: A 4+ save, and a pretty good gun. So for me at least Tau Firewarriors should be 7ppm. But to be honest I don't see a problem with them being 8ppm.
84364
Post by: pm713
 Peregrine wrote:
Conversions, mostly. I've seen people do some neat conversions with the Sky Ray parts, like making Remora drones out of the turret and some spare burst cannons. But rules-wise it's a pointless unit, and will continue to be one as long as seeker missiles are trash. Represent the Sky Ray accurately according to the fluff, where its load of six seeker missiles likely results in at least 4-5 dead aircraft attempting to enter its no-fly zone, and it will be relevant again.
That seems like a dangerous road to go down. Making everything completely fluff accurate.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
pm713 wrote: Peregrine wrote: Conversions, mostly. I've seen people do some neat conversions with the Sky Ray parts, like making Remora drones out of the turret and some spare burst cannons. But rules-wise it's a pointless unit, and will continue to be one as long as seeker missiles are trash. Represent the Sky Ray accurately according to the fluff, where its load of six seeker missiles likely results in at least 4-5 dead aircraft attempting to enter its no-fly zone, and it will be relevant again.
That seems like a dangerous road to go down. Making everything completely fluff accurate.
I like the idea, as a fluffy player, but I also agree. One of the neat things about 40k fluff is that it's completely inconsistent and there's no "right" answer. To use the example at hand: The Skyray may kill 4-5 aircraft before it is empty, but there's an example in the Imperial Guard 5e codex of an Air Defense Regiment achieving a kill ratio of 99,999 aircraft for every 1 Flak Tank destroyed during a single battle. That's literally written in the book. It's clearly propaganda. But what are the "real" numbers? Who knows.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
pm713 wrote:That seems like a dangerous road to go down. Making everything completely fluff accurate.
Not really, if you're reasonable about which fluff to pick. In a points-based system you can always increase the point cost of a powerful unit to reflect its power. For example, the Sky Ray would probably not remain a dirt cheap unit if it had its rules changed to match the fluff.
84364
Post by: pm713
Peregrine wrote:pm713 wrote:That seems like a dangerous road to go down. Making everything completely fluff accurate.
Not really, if you're reasonable about which fluff to pick. In a points-based system you can always increase the point cost of a powerful unit to reflect its power. For example, the Sky Ray would probably not remain a dirt cheap unit if it had its rules changed to match the fluff.
That's just going to end in a load of arguments about which fluff. Just fix the Skyray based on rules and leave fluff accurate rules for lol games where balance is out the window anyway.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
 Unit1126PLL wrote:One of the neat things about 40k fluff is that it's completely inconsistent and there's no "right" answer. To use the example at hand: The Skyray may kill 4-5 aircraft before it is empty, but there's an example in the Imperial Guard 5e codex of an Air Defense Regiment achieving a kill ratio of 99,999 aircraft for every 1 Flak Tank destroyed during a single battle. That's literally written in the book. It's clearly propaganda. But what are the "real" numbers? Who knows.
You can toss out obvious propaganda like that, and you can compare the performance of units in other fluff/rules. For example, the Sky Ray in Aeronautica Imperialis is doing a point of damage on a 3+, and two points of damage on a 6, in a game where every fighter has 2 HP. That's clearly a powerful weapon that can cripple or kill a target with a single shot, vastly more powerful than the current rules where it would take multiple Sky Rays worth of missiles hitting a target to kill it. We can't be 100% sure exactly what its damage is fluff-wise, but we know that it's far more than what the current rules give it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:That's just going to end in a load of arguments about which fluff. Just fix the Skyray based on rules and leave fluff accurate rules for lol games where balance is out the window anyway.
Fluff is the entire point of 40k! Nobody is playing such a poorly designed game out of sheer love for the rules, they're playing it because they like the fluff. If the rules don't follow the fluff then there's no reason for them to exist.
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Post by: Bach
Seeker missiles would need to be changed to fix the Skyray. Missile accuracy shouldn't be solely determined by markerlights either.
One way to make it more interesting would be to make Seekers missiles have a basic profile like this:
St 8. AP-3 D3 or D6 damage
With markerlights support:
1 markerlights- change profile to D3 mortal wounds
3 markerlights - change profile to D6 mortal wounds
5 markerlights - change profile to 6 mortal wounds
You can change the numbers around for balance but you get the idea. Skyrays needs to have a place and value in a list without a lot of markerlights, that needs to be step one. Step 2 is to make markerlights/Seeker missiles enough of a force multiplier to build viable strategies around. Right now, there are no real viable things to do with Marker lights/seeker missiles, and that will equate to Skyrays being a bad choice for the time being.
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Post by: AdmiralHalsey
'A Skyrays Ballistic skill is equal to 6 minus the number of markerlights attached to it's target.'
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Peregrine wrote:
pm713 wrote:That's just going to end in a load of arguments about which fluff. Just fix the Skyray based on rules and leave fluff accurate rules for lol games where balance is out the window anyway.
Fluff is the entire point of 40k! Nobody is playing such a poorly designed game out of sheer love for the rules, they're playing it because they like the fluff. If the rules don't follow the fluff then there's no reason for them to exist.
What's the point of playing if you hate the rules. Why not just read the books and save yourself the trouble? The two are so not intrinsically linked you can't enjoy one without the other. I've met plenty of people who's knowledge of the 40k fluff is shallower than you claim the rules are.
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Post by: Infantryman
 Bach wrote:Seeker missiles would need to be changed to fix the Skyray. Missile accuracy shouldn't be solely determined by markerlights either.
One way to make it more interesting would be to make Seekers missiles have a basic profile like this:
St 8. AP-3 D3 or D6 damage
With markerlights support:
1 markerlights- change profile to D3 mortal wounds
3 markerlights - change profile to D6 mortal wounds
5 markerlights - change profile to 6 mortal wounds
You can change the numbers around for balance but you get the idea. Skyrays needs to have a place and value in a list without a lot of markerlights, that needs to be step one. Step 2 is to make markerlights/Seeker missiles enough of a force multiplier to build viable strategies around. Right now, there are no real viable things to do with Marker lights/seeker missiles, and that will equate to Skyrays being a bad choice for the time being.
I'm no Tau expert, but I remember them from 4e. Markerlights are a targeting laser, yes? Why would that make the missile more killy?
M.
99166
Post by: Ruin
 Kanluwen wrote:
Your first mistake is reading Spikeybits.
They also don't use "intelligence", they use technology.
Whatever your preconceived notions of that site are (and BOLS), the article was on point and made some quite poignant observations regarding how GW are treating their background.
84364
Post by: pm713
Peregrine wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:
pm713 wrote:That's just going to end in a load of arguments about which fluff. Just fix the Skyray based on rules and leave fluff accurate rules for lol games where balance is out the window anyway.
Fluff is the entire point of 40k! Nobody is playing such a poorly designed game out of sheer love for the rules, they're playing it because they like the fluff. If the rules don't follow the fluff then there's no reason for them to exist.
But I would rather they made balanced rules that aren't fluffy. For example if I add a rule that Striking Scorpions are undetectable before attacking is that fluffy? Yes. Is it a good rule? No because there's no counter or way of preventing it like there is with Infiltration.
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Post by: Alcibiades
I use the Skyray to drop guaranteed final wounds off of targets.
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Post by: Bach
 Infantryman wrote: Bach wrote:Seeker missiles would need to be changed to fix the Skyray. Missile accuracy shouldn't be solely determined by markerlights either.
One way to make it more interesting would be to make Seekers missiles have a basic profile like this:
St 8. AP-3 D3 or D6 damage
With markerlights support:
1 markerlights- change profile to D3 mortal wounds
3 markerlights - change profile to D6 mortal wounds
5 markerlights - change profile to 6 mortal wounds
You can change the numbers around for balance but you get the idea. Skyrays needs to have a place and value in a list without a lot of markerlights, that needs to be step one. Step 2 is to make markerlights/Seeker missiles enough of a force multiplier to build viable strategies around. Right now, there are no real viable things to do with Marker lights/seeker missiles, and that will equate to Skyrays being a bad choice for the time being.
I'm no Tau expert, but I remember them from 4e. Markerlights are a targeting laser, yes? Why would that make the missile more killy?
M.
It is a targeting laser but we did see, in 7E, destroyer missiles get a higher damage profile from MLs. Why that was ? Not sure exactly but it made for good synergy and value with something like a one time use weapon.
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Post by: GeckoDragon
My understanding of it at the time was to give fire warriors anti tank capabilities without actually giving them anti tank weapons.
The squad leader could mark the offending tank and the skyray would launch a big old missile at it.
It also helped that the missile was launched from the perspective of the vehicle rather than the marker for the purposes of facing, so you could sneak a pihrana with a seeker behind a tank (maybe being across the board from it) and launch it at the weaker rear whilst marking it from the front with a fire warrior. The skyray was just a way to get a whole lot of seekers on the field.
But since then the fire warriors have gained a deployable rocket turret, and the markerlights and seeker missiles have lost a lot of their reliability.
The skyray was just collateral and left by the wayside.
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Post by: Colonel Cross
AdmiralHalsey wrote:'A Skyrays Ballistic skill is equal to 6 minus the number of markerlights attached to it's target.'
That is actually a pretty nifty way to help the Skyray! I love it!
92469
Post by: GI_Redshirt
As others have said, the problem with the Sky Ray is that Seeker Missiles themselves are fairly worthless. They are one use only, only hit on BS with 2 ML (only hitting on a 6 without MLs), are a heavy weapon (meaning penalty to shoot after moving), and only deal a single mortal wound. So a Sky Ray can deal a maximum of 6 wounds a game if every single Seeker Missile hits, and after they've been used becomes a nearly 200 point tank armed with 2 ML and 8 S5 shots a turn. A model who's primary weapon is only 6 1 use only missiles that deal 1 mortal wound is utterly useless, especially at almost 200 points. If we want Sky Rays to ever be usable in 8th, Seeker Missiles need a complete overhaul. They need to hit on BS naturally (use MLs to be able to hit targets out of LoS), and then either they need to remove the one use only from them or have them deal D3 mortal wounds per hit a la Smite.
83210
Post by: Vankraken
Bach wrote: Infantryman wrote: Bach wrote:Seeker missiles would need to be changed to fix the Skyray. Missile accuracy shouldn't be solely determined by markerlights either.
One way to make it more interesting would be to make Seekers missiles have a basic profile like this:
St 8. AP-3 D3 or D6 damage
With markerlights support:
1 markerlights- change profile to D3 mortal wounds
3 markerlights - change profile to D6 mortal wounds
5 markerlights - change profile to 6 mortal wounds
You can change the numbers around for balance but you get the idea. Skyrays needs to have a place and value in a list without a lot of markerlights, that needs to be step one. Step 2 is to make markerlights/Seeker missiles enough of a force multiplier to build viable strategies around. Right now, there are no real viable things to do with Marker lights/seeker missiles, and that will equate to Skyrays being a bad choice for the time being.
I'm no Tau expert, but I remember them from 4e. Markerlights are a targeting laser, yes? Why would that make the missile more killy?
M.
It is a targeting laser but we did see, in 7E, destroyer missiles get a higher damage profile from MLs. Why that was ? Not sure exactly but it made for good synergy and value with something like a one time use weapon.
The only explanation i could think of for destroyer missiles is that if they are sorta like micro nukes and need markerlights to arm the missile. If they fire while not armed they just crash into the target and its fuel explodes but doesn't cause a proper "nuclear" reaction.
As for the Skyray why not just give it the ability to reload during the next shooting phase so it can fire again the next turn? (turn 1 you fire off your 6 seekers, turn 2 your reloading, turn 3 your shooting seekers again). Turn 1 it still puts out the same firepower but only by turn 3 is it getting a firepower boost. By then though the opponent should be able to eliminate the markerlight support so it gives counter play besides "kill it".
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Post by: Togusa
 John Prins wrote:Fire Warriors are supposed to be the mainstay of Tau forces. Drones are used extensively because a dead drone is not a dead Tau. Kroot Mercs are used in decently large numbers.
Tau armies can easily field lots of models without being un-fluffy or ineffective. It's not all big robots and skimmers.
I know, one of my dream armies has been massed Fire Warriors, with Hammerhead/Skyhammer and Devilfish support. A few stealth suits for some fun behind enemy lines hit and runs.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
Ruin wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
Your first mistake is reading Spikeybits.
They also don't use "intelligence", they use technology.
Whatever your preconceived notions of that site are (and BOLS), the article was on point and made some quite poignant observations regarding how GW are treating their background.
except I'm not sure it's right, 40K's stuff has actually been better at consistancy and sticking to things then they used to be. I think they're getting better in that regard. thing is not every character can be the same,
70391
Post by: Dantioch
 Vankraken wrote: Bach wrote: Infantryman wrote: Bach wrote:Seeker missiles would need to be changed to fix the Skyray. Missile accuracy shouldn't be solely determined by markerlights either.
One way to make it more interesting would be to make Seekers missiles have a basic profile like this:
St 8. AP-3 D3 or D6 damage
With markerlights support:
1 markerlights- change profile to D3 mortal wounds
3 markerlights - change profile to D6 mortal wounds
5 markerlights - change profile to 6 mortal wounds
You can change the numbers around for balance but you get the idea. Skyrays needs to have a place and value in a list without a lot of markerlights, that needs to be step one. Step 2 is to make markerlights/Seeker missiles enough of a force multiplier to build viable strategies around. Right now, there are no real viable things to do with Marker lights/seeker missiles, and that will equate to Skyrays being a bad choice for the time being.
I'm no Tau expert, but I remember them from 4e. Markerlights are a targeting laser, yes? Why would that make the missile more killy?
M.
It is a targeting laser but we did see, in 7E, destroyer missiles get a higher damage profile from MLs. Why that was ? Not sure exactly but it made for good synergy and value with something like a one time use weapon.
The only explanation i could think of for destroyer missiles is that if they are sorta like micro nukes and need markerlights to arm the missile. If they fire while not armed they just crash into the target and its fuel explodes but doesn't cause a proper "nuclear" reaction.
The destroyer missiles increased damage was based on the idea that markerlights would give the missile a more accurate hit than if it was only locked at the general target when launched. This came from the idea that the markerlight network transmits information and analysis on targets and isn't just a laser pointer. For example a piranha fires a missile at a tank. Without the markerlight support it would recognise the tank as a imperial MBT and probably go for the center mass and on a hit kill of some crew members. With markerlight support, the system would identify it as a leman russ, relay information to the missile on the weak spots and allow it to hit the ammo storage blowing the whole thing up.
111556
Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
How to improve Tau as a faction?
1: Make markerlights not so lacklustre. The current markerlight table is ridiculously bad compared to the old system, and it cripples your entire army.
2: Stop making all the best units overcosted. Right now, at least half of our battlesuits are overcosted to the point of uselessness- getting a broadside, a riptide or an XV8 for anything other than a for-fun thematic game makes no sense points wise. Right now we're sorely lacking for strong, lascannon-like long range firepower that is cost efficient. Without the power of commanders, we'd be crippled.
3: Give us a reason to actually play this combined arms style that is in accordance with the fluff. Give us a mixed army that is viable. Right now, you either play a gunline (forefitting your ability to be out on the map and scoring objectives) or an aggressive list with lots of fast-moving units and deep strike, which is frail and can get completely screwed. Give us some versatility. Give us a reason to take hammerheads and skyrays.
72525
Post by: Vector Strike
 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:How to improve Tau as a faction?
2: Stop making all the best units overcosted. Right now, at least half of our battlesuits are overcosted to the point of uselessness- getting a broadside, a riptide or an XV8 for anything other than a for-fun thematic game makes no sense points wise. Right now we're sorely lacking for strong, lascannon-like long range firepower that is cost efficient. Without the power of commanders, we'd be crippled.
With the price drops in many codexes, I believe suits will get some cuts too. Also, it seems Tau fares better with PL instead of points
92469
Post by: GI_Redshirt
 Vector Strike wrote: SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:How to improve Tau as a faction?
2: Stop making all the best units overcosted. Right now, at least half of our battlesuits are overcosted to the point of uselessness- getting a broadside, a riptide or an XV8 for anything other than a for-fun thematic game makes no sense points wise. Right now we're sorely lacking for strong, lascannon-like long range firepower that is cost efficient. Without the power of commanders, we'd be crippled.
With the price drops in many codexes, I believe suits will get some cuts too. Also, it seems Tau fares better with PL instead of points
That last part is somewhat true, certainly. As much as we all complain that our suits are overcosted (which they absolutely are), the other major issue with them is the cost of weapons options. Even if suit costs do go down, if weapon costs remain the same we still have a major problem. MPs, for example, are borderline useless, even on Commanders, due to their cost. They're literally double the cost of AM autocannons, for what? Assault instead of Heavy, less range, and D3 damage instead of 2? How does being slightly more mobile (while having less range to make up for it) and having variable (thus less reliable) damage justify being double the points? Or the IA on Riptides. We pay 105 freaking points for what ultimately amounts to a Heavy 3 Plasma Gun with 72" range (the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile). Yeah, the IA was certainly undercosted back in 7th, but I would love to see someone justify over a hundred points for a glorified plasma gun. Tau fare better in PL than points cause then we just have to deal with our suits being overcosted rather than our suits as well as all of their weapons being overcosted.
Even if our suits get a BS buff and a points drop, they will still be extremely limited in usage due to weapons costs.
111556
Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
That last part is somewhat true, certainly. As much as we all complain that our suits are overcosted (which they absolutely are), the other major issue with them is the cost of weapons options. Even if suit costs do go down, if weapon costs remain the same we still have a major problem. MPs, for example, are borderline useless, even on Commanders, due to their cost. They're literally double the cost of AM autocannons, for what? Assault instead of Heavy, less range, and D3 damage instead of 2? How does being slightly more mobile (while having less range to make up for it) and having variable (thus less reliable) damage justify being double the points? Or the IA on Riptides. We pay 105 freaking points for what ultimately amounts to a Heavy 3 Plasma Gun with 72" range (the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile). Yeah, the IA was certainly undercosted back in 7th, but I would love to see someone justify over a hundred points for a glorified plasma gun. Tau fare better in PL than points cause then we just have to deal with our suits being overcosted rather than our suits as well as all of their weapons being overcosted.
Even if our suits get a BS buff and a points drop, they will still be extremely limited in usage due to weapons costs.
Also true. While I think some of the cost is fine- plasma rifles at 11 pts, burst cannons at 10- the missile pods are extremely overcosted. The riptide weapons options are the same.
103666
Post by: FrozenDwarf
 GI_Redshirt wrote:As others have said, the problem with the Sky Ray is that Seeker Missiles themselves are fairly worthless. They are one use only, only hit on BS with 2 ML (only hitting on a 6 without MLs), are a heavy weapon (meaning penalty to shoot after moving), and only deal a single mortal wound. So a Sky Ray can deal a maximum of 6 wounds a game if every single Seeker Missile hits, and after they've been used becomes a nearly 200 point tank armed with 2 ML and 8 S5 shots a turn. A model who's primary weapon is only 6 1 use only missiles that deal 1 mortal wound is utterly useless, especially at almost 200 points. If we want Sky Rays to ever be usable in 8th, Seeker Missiles need a complete overhaul. They need to hit on BS naturally (use MLs to be able to hit targets out of LoS), and then either they need to remove the one use only from them or have them deal D3 mortal wounds per hit a la Smite.
if they are going to keep the 1 time use, d3 is too low dmg.
they have only 2 options as i see it:
remove the ML BS penalty and increase the range, 1 time use, 2d6 choose the higest d6 mortal wounds.
remove the ML BS penalty and increase the range, remove 1 time use, make missiles 1 mortal wound. (no reload stuff or any other pointless system, it must have 6 misssiles each turn)
anything less then this and the skyray will still be 100% pointless even whit a hefty price reduction.
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Post by: Kanluwen
GI_Redshirt wrote: That last part is somewhat true, certainly. As much as we all complain that our suits are overcosted (which they absolutely are), the other major issue with them is the cost of weapons options. Even if suit costs do go down, if weapon costs remain the same we still have a major problem. MPs, for example, are borderline useless, even on Commanders, due to their cost. They're literally double the cost of AM autocannons, for what? Assault instead of Heavy, less range, and D3 damage instead of 2? How does being slightly more mobile (while having less range to make up for it) and having variable (thus less reliable) damage justify being double the points?
Well, for one thing, you can Advance and Fire Missile Pods at a -1 to Hit(which can be mitigated by Markerlights or Target Lock wargear). You can also improve the Missile Pod to be -2 AP by taking the Advanced Targeting System(grants an additional -1AP to all of its weapons). And that's also ignoring Mont'ka, which lets you advance and fire with no penalties. Another thing however is that Autocannons are on limited platforms in the Guard book. You've got Heavy Weapon Teams for Guard Veterans/Command Squads(BS3+) or Infantry and Heavy Weapon Squads and Sentinel Squads(BS4+). There's also a token Autocannon on some Baneblade hulls but that's still BS4+.
Or the IA on Riptides. We pay 105 freaking points for what ultimately amounts to a Heavy 3 Plasma Gun with 72" range (the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile). Yeah, the IA was certainly undercosted back in 7th, but I would love to see someone justify over a hundred points for a glorified plasma gun.
Oh no, you have to take a penalty to use the Nova Reactor! Pretty sure that Stimulant Injectors still are a potential solution there, correct? In any regards, it's still better than Plasma Cannon Sentinels. If you roll a 1, the Sentinel is slain. Tau fare better in PL than points cause then we just have to deal with our suits being overcosted rather than our suits as well as all of their weapons being overcosted.
Even if our suits get a BS buff and a points drop, they will still be extremely limited in usage due to weapons costs.
Basically everyone fares better in PL when you have weapon options that are overcosted.
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Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
Well, for one thing, you can Advance and Fire Missile Pods at a -1 to Hit(which can be mitigated by Markerlights or Target Lock wargear). You can also improve the Missile Pod to be -2 AP by taking the Advanced Targeting System(grants an additional -1AP to all of its weapons).
And that's also ignoring Mont'ka, which lets you advance and fire with no penalties.
At 36' and strength 7, you're a long range medium strength tank hunter. You're not likely to want to advance. It's an incredibly minor bonus. All points listed do not address the fact that pods are way overcosted, and your points are either irrelevant or too minute to be of note. 24 pts for a pod is too much. Right now there is zero reason to take pods on anything. Oh no, you have to take a penalty to use the Nova Reactor!
Pretty sure that Stimulant Injectors still are a potential solution there, correct?
In any regards, it's still better than Plasma Cannon Sentinels. If you roll a 1, the Sentinel is slain.
...he didn't say jack about the nova reactor. He complained that we pay 105 points for very little damage output. Which is 100% true. Right now riptides are complete ass, purely because of the cost. They need about 100 pts decrease to be worthwhile. Oh and let me add: stim injectors now save wounds on sixes only. They suck.
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Post by: Kanluwen
SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:Well, for one thing, you can Advance and Fire Missile Pods at a -1 to Hit(which can be mitigated by Markerlights or Target Lock wargear). You can also improve the Missile Pod to be -2 AP by taking the Advanced Targeting System(grants an additional -1AP to all of its weapons).
And that's also ignoring Mont'ka, which lets you advance and fire with no penalties.
At 36' and strength 7, you're a long range medium strength tank hunter. You're not likely to want to advance. It's an incredibly minor bonus. All points listed do not address the fact that pods are way overcosted, and your points are either irrelevant or too minute to be of note. 24 pts for a pod is too much. Right now there is zero reason to take pods on anything.
Except for the fact that things which can take Missile Pods can usually take a complimentary weapon...
Oh no, you have to take a penalty to use the Nova Reactor!
Pretty sure that Stimulant Injectors still are a potential solution there, correct?
In any regards, it's still better than Plasma Cannon Sentinels. If you roll a 1, the Sentinel is slain.
...he didn't say jack about the nova reactor. He complained that we pay 105 points for very little damage output. Which is 100% true.
Right now riptides are complete ass, purely because of the cost. They need about 100 pts decrease to be worthwhile.
Selective reading:
Or the IA on Riptides. We pay 105 freaking points for what ultimately amounts to a Heavy 3 Plasma Gun with 72" range (the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile). Yeah, the IA was certainly undercosted back in 7th, but I would love to see someone justify over a hundred points for a glorified plasma gun.
He literally talks about the Nova profile--which means he did "say jack about the nova reactor".
Oh and let me add: stim injectors now save wounds on sixes only. They suck.
They're in line with everything else doing the same thing.
111556
Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
Except for the fact that things which can take Missile Pods can usually take a complimentary weapon...
Which matters how, exactly? Right now, pods are able to be taken by fliers, commanders, XV8s, broadsides and... I don't recall any others. Right now I don't see any real use for it, which is especially true because of the insane cost. He literally talks about the Nova profile--which means he did "say jack about the nova reactor".
You got me. I missed the part about the nova reactor. Then again, the person you replied to wasn't complaining about the novacharge itself- so your comment still doesn't make sense. They're in line with everything else doing the same thing.
Back in 7th, you could save a wound on a 5+, making them essential. Here... well, let's dig into this mess: At 14 wounds, going down a bracket after taking 7, the riptide's already lacklustre 4+ BS means it's completely useless without markerlights, which are in no way guaranteed. Its shooting is extremely limited for the 300+ points it costs- and all an opponent has to do to be able to mostly ignore it, if it isn't outright killed by a volley of lascannons in turn 1, is to bracket it once. After that, the riptide's badly overpriced guns will be so cost inefficient that your enemy can happily ignore it and focus on whatever other hard-hitting thing your army has. That considered, being able to save wounds only on a 6+ means the support system is nearly useless. Given that every lascannon, autocannon, bright/dark lance or whatever is going to immediately point at the riptide and destroy it in 2 rounds tops, barring exceptional circumstances, you really need that 5+. Right now the riptide is probably the most useless unit in our entire arsenal, chiefly because it's overcosted but also because of secondary problems like being forced to take a mortal wound (when you're already a prime target for big guns) to activate your novacharge, which if you're bracketed just isn't worth it, and of course the abysmal state of current markerlights.
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Post by: Kanluwen
SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:Except for the fact that things which can take Missile Pods can usually take a complimentary weapon...
Which matters how, exactly? Right now, pods are able to be taken by fliers, commanders, XV8s, broadsides and... I don't recall any others. Right now I don't see any real use for it, which is especially true because of the insane cost.
Broadsides don't get Missile Pods. They get Smart Missile Systems.
The Missile Pods are on the Missile Drones--which can be taken only by Broadsides.
Missile Pods are able to be taken by:
Commanders
XV8s
Fire Warrior Teams(it's an option for the turret)
Missile and Shielded Missile Drones(Broadside and Riptides are the only ones able to take these two variants)
Flyers
He literally talks about the Nova profile--which means he did "say jack about the nova reactor".
You got me. I missed the part about the nova reactor. Then again, the person you replied to wasn't complaining about the novacharge itself- so your comment still doesn't make sense.
Or the IA on Riptides. We pay 105 freaking points for what ultimately amounts to a Heavy 3 Plasma Gun with 72" range (the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile). Yeah, the IA was certainly undercosted back in 7th, but I would love to see someone justify over a hundred points for a glorified plasma gun.
R E A D T H E P O S T.
He literally is complaining about the Nova Charge and how it works.
If you don't like Nova Charge being an automatic Mortal Wound? Well there's hope for you!
The Leman Russ Executioner Plasma Tank was changed to be less punishing for firing it as Overcharge.
However there's also the potential that nothing changes since, as mentioned, Armoured Sentinels still are instantly slain when they fire a Plasma Cannon overcharged.
They're in line with everything else doing the same thing.
Back in 7th, you could save a wound on a 5+, making them essential. Here... well, let's dig into this mess:
At 14 wounds, going down a bracket after taking 7, the riptide's already lacklustre 4+ BS means it's completely useless without markerlights, which are in no way guaranteed. Its shooting is extremely limited for the 300+ points it costs- and all an opponent has to do to be able to mostly ignore it, if it isn't outright killed by a volley of lascannons in turn 1, is to bracket it once. After that, the riptide's badly overpriced guns will be so cost inefficient that your enemy can happily ignore it and focus on whatever other hard-hitting thing your army has.
That considered, being able to save wounds only on a 6+ means the support system is nearly useless. Given that every lascannon, autocannon, bright/dark lance or whatever is going to immediately point at the riptide and destroy it in 2 rounds tops, barring exceptional circumstances, you really need that 5+. Right now the riptide is probably the most useless unit in our entire arsenal, chiefly because it's overcosted but also because of secondary problems like being forced to take a mortal wound (when you're already a prime target for big guns) to activate your novacharge, which if you're bracketed just isn't worth it, and of course the abysmal state of current markerlights.
You know what Feel No Pain did back then, yeah?
And let's be completely honest here:
"Back in 7th", Vehicles that were way more expensive were garbage and things like Riptides were fantastic because of the whole Monster v Vehicle nonsense.
Let's also not pretend that the Riptide isn't getting a 2+ save base with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and the ability to pawn those lascannon, autocannon,bright/dark lance or whatever onto Drones.
Also let's stop with the dramatic nonsense about Markerlights. They're far from "abysmal". You don't get to throw your BS up to ridiculous levels any more and you're actively required to put lights onto targets to get benefits.
Why do you think you should be able to just get the best stuff right off the bat?
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Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
Could have sworn I read that in the index- well, I must have misremembered. He literally is complaining about the Nova Charge and how it works.
...no? "the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile" IE the main point is the gun itself and that it's useless without the nova charge. If you don't like Nova Charge being an automatic Mortal Wound? Well there's hope for you!
The Leman Russ Executioner Plasma Tank was changed to be less punishing for firing it as Overcharge.
However there's also the potential that nothing changes since, as mentioned, Armoured Sentinels still are instantly slain when they fire a Plasma Cannon overcharged.
Well, I sure hope so- the upcoming codex has a lot of issues to fix, the sheer uselessness of the might-as-well-be-a-paperweight riptide being one of them. You know what Feel No Pain did back then, yeah?
And let's be completely honest here:
"Back in 7th", Vehicles that were way more expensive were garbage and things like Riptides were fantastic because of the whole Monster v Vehicle nonsense.
Let's also not pretend that the Riptide isn't getting a 2+ save base with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and the ability to pawn those lascannon, autocannon,bright/dark lance or whatever onto Drones.
Drones. Right. Drones, that everyone puts their low tier dakka into before firing lascannons at the priority target? Those things? Also let's stop with the dramatic nonsense about Markerlights. They're far from "abysmal". You don't get to throw your BS up to ridiculous levels any more and you're actively required to put lights onto targets to get benefits.
Why do you think you should be able to just get the best stuff right off the bat?
I will not. Markerlights are, if now godawful, then at least heavily nerfed and it's affecting the entire tau arsenal in a huge way. I've already made a post about a minor improvement to the table that would make it good again- you don't need to let us have BS 2+ on everything for it to be workable. We just need markerlights that aren't half of them useless to us most of the time.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Then go back and read the Index. Missile Pods are listed for Riptides and Broadsides both as they can take Drones that feature them.
He literally is complaining about the Nova Charge and how it works.
...no? "the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile"
IE the main point is the gun itself and that it's useless without the nova charge.
You keep editing my posts to make it sound like there's no way that someone complaining about the fact that he needs to use the Nova profile to make the Ion Accelerator work is, in fact, also complaining about the way Nova Charge works.
If you don't like Nova Charge being an automatic Mortal Wound? Well there's hope for you!
The Leman Russ Executioner Plasma Tank was changed to be less punishing for firing it as Overcharge.
However there's also the potential that nothing changes since, as mentioned, Armoured Sentinels still are instantly slain when they fire a Plasma Cannon overcharged.
Well, I sure hope so- the upcoming codex has a lot of issues to fix, the sheer uselessness of the might-as-well-be-a-paperweight riptide being one of them.
Oh please. Just because it's not "points-effective" does not mean that it "might-as-well-be-a-paperweight".
You know what Feel No Pain did back then, yeah?
And let's be completely honest here:
"Back in 7th", Vehicles that were way more expensive were garbage and things like Riptides were fantastic because of the whole Monster v Vehicle nonsense.
Let's also not pretend that the Riptide isn't getting a 2+ save base with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and the ability to pawn those lascannon, autocannon,bright/dark lance or whatever onto Drones.
Drones. Right. Drones, that everyone puts their low tier dakka into before firing lascannons at the priority target? Those things?
You know all the garbage that people whined about with Commissars and Conscripts? How you can hide the Commissars behind the Conscripts and cover and prevent wounds from being placed onto them?
Put the Drones into cover or behind LOS blocking terrain. Keep them within range of the Riptide.
Also let's stop with the dramatic nonsense about Markerlights. They're far from "abysmal". You don't get to throw your BS up to ridiculous levels any more and you're actively required to put lights onto targets to get benefits.
Why do you think you should be able to just get the best stuff right off the bat?
I will not. Markerlights are, if now godawful, then at least heavily nerfed and it's affecting the entire tau arsenal in a huge way. I've already made a post about a minor improvement to the table that would make it good again- you don't need to let us habe BS 2+ on everything for it to be workable. We just need markerlights that aren't half of them useless to us most of the time.
You mean this trash?
1: Re-roll to hit rolls of 1
2: Fire missiles at normal BS
3: Ignore up to one penalty. A -2 would become a -1, and a -3 would become a -2, and so on.
4: +1 to hit
5: Ignore cover saves
6: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1
That's not a "minor improvement". That's a huge buff since 3+4 would stack to effectively make any Markerlight hits of 4 or higher be turning anything into anti-aircraft.
The Markerlight table, as it stands right now, allows for you to have graduated benefits and to prioritize targets. Once you get to 3 or higher(which is where you'll want things to be for the "Ballistic Suits" like Broadsides and Stormsurges), then you're looking at significant benefits.
I said elsewhere that if you want a real fix to the Markerlight system, then you need to do something to make Suits get more usage out of the Markerlight table than infantry. Making it so that Suits double the number of counters on the target is a far better solution than your nonsense.
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Post by: SevenSeasOfRhye
I did go back and read it, I stand corrected.
You keep editing my posts to make it sound like there's no way that someone complaining about the fact that he needs to use the Nova profile to make the Ion Accelerator work is, in fact, also complaining about the way Nova Charge works.
I'm literally quoting the guy you quoted. I have not in any way, shape or form ever misquoted or edited any quote by you.
Put the Drones into cover or behind LOS blocking terrain. Keep them within range of the Riptide.
Only a viable tactic if you want to stand back all game long- and of course, with enough dedicated firepower coming your way, you're not likely to soak up more than one round's worth of shooting if even that.
That's not a "minor improvement". That's a huge buff since 3+4 would stack to effectively make any Markerlight hits of 4 or higher be turning anything into anti-aircraft.
The Markerlight table, as it stands right now, allows for you to have graduated benefits and to prioritize targets. Once you get to 3 or higher(which is where you'll want things to be for the "Ballistic Suits" like Broadsides and Stormsurges), then you're looking at significant benefits.
I said elsewhere that if you want a real fix to the Markerlight system, then you need to do something to make Suits get more usage out of the Markerlight table than infantry. Making it so that Suits double the number of counters on the target is a far better solution than your nonsense.
You keep getting hung up on that single point- which I maintain isn't even that bad. We can't spam lascannons or dark/bright lances. We have comparatively little in the heavy guns department because tau is about quality shooting. Which is why we need all the bonuses we can get, especially with most of our suits being costed into uselessness.
Let's have a quick look at the current markers:
1: Useful.
2: Almost always useless.
3: Useless more often than not.
4: Situational. Useless half the time.
5: Useful.
Three out of five are so situational that you can go several matches in a row without ever needing them. These are not good and useful bonuses. They're extremely situational. A pathetic +1 to hit and reroll 1s is the only thing guaranteed to help us. The current table is completely insufficient and in need of a serious buff. "Doubling the number of counters"? To what effect, when most of the table is useless to us most of the time?
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
Just to chip in my thoughts on the markerlights, yes the markerlight table IS one of the bigger issues whit tau.
1 mark is usefull and should stay as it is.
2 markers can be replaced as thouse missiles needs to be completely redesigned, and part of that redesign is to remove the BS nerf.
3 markers is handy but should be moved to 2 markers if it does not get an added dmg bonus.
4 markers is pointless and can be replaced by something that is actualy usefull.
5 markers is fine as is but should not be higer then 4 markers as it is.
1-3 marks is what moust enemy units will have and sutch thouse 1-3 marks must offer a valid and just increase in preformance for ALL units, as of now they do not.
What we have now is buffs that dont buff what needs to be buffed. to be lasermarked by the tau is ment to realy HURT you, not make you laugh
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Post by: Kanluwen
FrozenDwarf wrote:Just to chip in my thoughts on the markerlights, yes the markerlight table IS one of the bigger issues whit tau.
1 mark is usefull and should stay as it is.
2 markers can be replaced as thouse missiles needs to be completely redesigned, and part of that redesign is to remove the BS nerf.
No. Seeker Missiles have always been tied to Markerlights. The original Seeker Missile, IIRC(I no longer own that book sadly) required a Markerlight in order to even fire.
It's a highly sophisticated piece of kit, optimized to be laser-guided onto a target. The same thing goes for the Destroyer Missile.
3 markers is handy but should be moved to 2 markers if it does not get an added dmg bonus.
Why should you get an added damage bonus? Your "damage bonus" is the ability to ignore penalties for moving and firing Heavy classified weapons or Advancing and firing Assault classified weapons.
4 markers is pointless and can be replaced by something that is actualy usefull.
...
The ability to remove any bonus to saving throws for being in cover is "pointless"?
Look at a unit like Ratlings or SM Scouts who gain +2 to their saves for being in cover.
Your Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines(which you could advance and fire with no penalties...) are now forcing them to save on a 4+ instead of a 2+. You don't need a Rend to mess with that kind of stuff there.
5 markers is fine as is but should not be higer then 4 markers as it is.
5 Marks gets you +1BS. That's the "endgame" for Tau.
It lets you negate benefits like Alaitoc, Styiges, or Raven Guard at 12" or further out and/or it lets you hit more reliably with your weapons like Railguns against big beefy targets.
1-3 marks is what moust enemy units will have and sutch thouse 1-3 marks must offer a valid and just increase in preformance for ALL units, as of now they do not.
What we have now is buffs that dont buff what needs to be buffed. to be lasermarked by the tau is ment to realy HURT you, not make you laugh
What are you even talking about?
1-3 marks, even if "what most enemy units will have", can be buffed to be doubled thanks to the stratagem they just got in Chapter Approved.
And lets be honest here: if you want a genuine buff to Markerlights? You're taking a nerf too. They only roll to Hit, they don't need to Wound. There's no saving against a Markerlight hit.
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Post by: liverscrew
I am confused about the fact that you guys are arguing with a dude who says that broadsides can't take missile pods. Doesn't seem too productive.
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Post by: prendeho
Just to be clear broadsides can take high-yield missile pods, and they are expensive for the points.
Tau's whole makerlight table wouldn't be so bad if there were not so many things that make shooting outside of 12" -1 to hit. Markerlights go from 4+ to 5+, which on a d6 is terrible. A significant portion of your army will need to be invested in markerlights to counteract the army wide debuff is -1 to hit. Eldar make these even worse, making markerlights hit on 6+ or unhittable with conceal/stategems
Most likely our codex is not going to buff our native BS to 3. We got the markerlight stratagem which helps, but I'm really hoping the take a solid look at the table.
Another thing that bugs me is besides the command re-roll, we have no way to fix our wounding rolls. So many times I ge the clutch hit to roll 1 on a wound or such. If markerlights are so good at making us hit the target, one would think they would be good at highlighting critical areas? Rerolling 1's to wound or something at 5 or 6 would also be nice...
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Post by: Kanluwen
liverscrew wrote:I am confused about the fact that you guys are arguing with a dude who says that broadsides can't take missile pods. Doesn't seem too productive.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may replace their heavy rail rifle with two high-yield missile pods.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may replace both smart missile systems with two plasma rifles.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may take a seeker missile.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may take one item from the Support Systems list.
Your move, bud.
The Missile Pod in the unit entry is for the MV8 Missile Drones.
HYMPs are their own thing, being Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D3 damage instead of Assault 2 S7 AP-1 D3 damage.
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Post by: liverscrew
So the HYMP being heavy 4 makes it not be a missile pod? Do you only use it to shoot infantry then? The niche filled is exactly the same. Getting HYMP for your broadside is probably a better waste of points than putting missile pods on your commander.
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Post by: Kanluwen
liverscrew wrote:So the HYMP being heavy 4 makes it not be a missile pod? Do you only use it to shoot infantry then? The niche filled is exactly the same. Getting HYMP for your broadside is probably a better waste of points than putting missile pods on your commander.
High-Yield Missile Pods are High-Yield Missile Pods.
You can try to argue semantics all you'd like but it doesn't change the fact that much like how an Exterminator Autocannon is its own thing HYMPs are considered their own thing. You don't buy 4x Missile Pods and then magically get a HYMP.
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Post by: liverscrew
Actually, you're the one pointing out the "semantical" difference between HYMP and missile pod when they are usually considered functionally the same in the context of army composition and effectiveness.
And you're even painting people as being stupid because "missile pods come on the drone" when it's pretty obvious that they meant the HYMP which is a slightly more cost effective missile pod and fills exactly the same niche.
So, laying it out without "arguing semantics", if you absolutely need to take missile pods with you, you take them by not taking missile pods at all, because the HRR is even worse and you shouldn't waste that BS2+ on an underperforming weapon. And this is the general 8th edition consensus in various T'au related communities online.
That is the problem with 8th edition T'au. HYMP is the only viable source of missile pod like firepower, because T'au shoot like orks now and you need to compensate for the BS by bringing more dakka. And the only other weapon the broadside can equip has less shots and is therefore worse. Taking missile pods on commanders is less viable because they are the only ones who can profficiently wield the low shot high AP weapons sorely needed to deal with armor and tough targets. And the only other platforms that can carry missile pods and equivalents are crisis suits, broadsides or infantry turrets. And crisis suits generally also have better weapon options available to them, whereas infantry turrets are stupidly situational.
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Post by: GI_Redshirt
liverscrew wrote:Actually, you're the one pointing out the "semantical" difference between HYMP and missile pod when they are usually considered functionally the same in the context of army composition and effectiveness.
And you're even painting people as being stupid because "missile pods come on the drone" when it's pretty obvious that they meant the HYMP which is a slightly more cost effective missile pod and fills exactly the same niche.
So, laying it out without "arguing semantics", if you absolutely need to take missile pods with you, you take them by not taking missile pods at all, because the HRR is even worse and you shouldn't waste that BS2+ on an underperforming weapon. And this is the general 8th edition consensus in various T'au related communities online.
That is the problem with 8th edition T'au. HYMP is the only viable source of missile pod like firepower, because T'au shoot like orks now and you need to compensate for the BS by bringing more dakka. And the only other weapon the broadside can equip has less shots and is therefore worse. Taking missile pods on commanders is less viable because they are the only ones who can profficiently wield the low shot high AP weapons sorely needed to deal with armor and tough targets. And the only other platforms that can carry missile pods and equivalents are crisis suits, broadsides or infantry turrets. And crisis suits generally also have better weapon options available to them, whereas infantry turrets are stupidly situational.
You sure you know the consensus from online Tau communities? Because the general consensus is that you NEVER take Broadsides, especially Missilesides, due to their costs (a single Missileside runs you almost 200 points a model), and if you must take a broadside, you take the HRR cause it at least fills a role Commanders and Crisis fundamentally cannot (long range, high strength, high AP, high damage shooting). If you need MP-like firepower, you take CIBs. Same strength (actually better on Overcharge), same AP, same damage when Overcharged, and more shots, for less points. Granted it only has half the range, but thanks to Manta Strike, 8" move, and Fly, that range isn't a huge issue. When you need medium-to-high strength, middling AP, D D3 shooting, you don't take MPs and certainly don't take HYMPs, you take CIBs, either on a Commander with ATS or in 3 man trip- CIB Crisis Teams (one of the two or three loadouts they use decently well). Broadsides in general are on the same level as Riptides (just a plain bad unit you should not include in your list), Missilesides are on the same level as Iontides (IE, the worst loadout choice on an already bad unit).
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
A possible fix (or part of one) for the skyray would be to give the Seekers two statlines, one for a single warhead mode, 1 hit with high strength, AP and damage (guaranteed damage would be nice, too. Limited use + random damage and needing markerlights to work is not a good combination), and one for a MIRV warhead mode, giving lots of hits at reduced strength, AP and damage (maybe 2D6 hits, S5, AP-1, D1 or something like that).
That allows the Skyray to act as anti-infantry support as well as anti-vehicle/monster, giving it a bit more versatility in its role.
Fluff wise the warhead is constructed in such a way that lots of individual warheads can act together forming a powerful shaped charge for anti-armour or break off and target a wider area at the cost of reduced armour penetration ability.
113639
Post by: Tylendal
Honestly, I just want the Rail Gun to be scary again. Back when I started playing in 5th, the Rail Gun was THE anti-vehicle weapon. It was the one thing that could really scare Monoliths or Land Raiders. The fluff for it has always been amazing, the wake of the projectile's passing pulverizing the interior of a vehicle and scattering it out through the incongruous little exit hole left behind. In the fluff, Warhounds have gone down to a well placed shot from it once their shields are down.
So, what's the 8th edition version of this weapon that both in fluff, and on the tabletop ('til now), was the be all, end all, of anti-vehicular weapons? It's marginally more reliable than a Lascannon, with a tiny chance of doing a bit more damage.
Meanwhile, while you've got your slightly better Lascannon Rail Gun on a Hammerhead, for the same price your opponent has brought a Self-Propelled Quad-Lascannon, with two Twin-Lascannon sponsons and a Pintle-Mounted Lascannon.
Currently, the Rail Gun, the anti-vehicular terror of every edition up until now, is only accurately modeled if it's been heated up and softened, then bent to droop impotently.
Sure, vehicles are tougher now. I don't expect the Rail Gun to still be able to turn any given vehicle into a smoldering crater in a single turn, but while other AV weapons are relatively weaker against vehicles than they used to be, the Rail Gun has to have one of the greatest 7th to 8th power disparities of them all.
(Also, the Piranha going from slightly tougher than a Land Speeder to significantly squishier than one was just a kick in the teeth.)
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