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Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 19:22:12


Post by: Bharring


So I keep hearing how Shining Spears are the most OP thing in the game, or variations on that theme.

It's awesome that Spears aren't the trash they've been since 6E came out. They were OK in the Index. I see them as useful and good. But what makes them OP?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:11:16


Post by: DarknessEternal


Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:14:31


Post by: Galas


 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Oh internet hyperbole, you never disappoint. "Shining Spears are the most OP units in the game" vs "All bikes in the game are absolute trash". Beautifull.

Spoiler:


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:31:27


Post by: craftworld_uk


SHHHHH!

Yes, Shining Spears are awesome now, especially with the Saim Hann trait and Raging Winds stratagem.

Enough talk - don't want everyone knowing the secret!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:32:32


Post by: Bharring


So, then, where do the Spears actually fall?

They don't look that much better than Marine bikers, for the points. Better at CC, worse at shooting.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:33:09


Post by: Daedalus81


 Galas wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Oh internet hyperbole, you never disappoint. "Shining Spears are the most OP units in the game" vs "All bikes in the game are absolute trash". Beautifull.

Spoiler:


Amen.

In any case they pay 18 points for T4 3+, a 4++ vs ranged, Fly, 2 attacks, and a 16" move. The lance is also great at punching hard stuff and they pack a TSC for softer stuff. And the exarch rerolls to wound on vehicles.
Chaos Bikes are 23 now and move 14" with T5 and 1 attack.

In other words don't go buying a ton, because they're likely going to get a point adjustment upwards.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:34:19


Post by: Bharring


They pay 31 points, not 18 pts.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:36:47


Post by: Daedalus81


Bharring wrote:
They pay 31 points, not 18 pts.


With the gear, yes. Base is 18 and reflective of the stuff before weapons.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:38:20


Post by: craftworld_uk


Yes, 31 pts including the lance and catapults. That's five shots each before a rock solid charge, which they can then runaway and repeat again next turn.

SHHHHH!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:41:14


Post by: Galas


How many wounds do they have?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:43:15


Post by: Bharring


2, Exarch has 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not looking at buying more. I have my unit, that I've had for a while. I don't like duplicating Aspects (aside from DA).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:45:56


Post by: Galas


Hmm... they appear to be better Terminators, to be honest. Probably they would be better at 36-38 points with weapons.
This, combined with a nerf to plasma of course, and then suddenly all 2 wound models become much more viable.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:50:14


Post by: Bharring


A Biker Marine is 27 with Wargear. With a PG, it's 40pts.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:52:32


Post by: Galas


I don't have the rules for Shining Speras in front of me.

Whats the basic load out of a Shining Spear for 31 points vs a Biker Marine for 27? I believe biker marines are in a good spot. Their problem is plasma spam.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:55:30


Post by: Bharring


Twin ShuriKat and Laser Lance.

LL is S6 AP-4 D2, and both Assault 1 6" and a CC weapon, but only S6 for the first round of combat.

Spears are Fly, and move fast. S3 T4 3+ 4++ 2W.

Bike Marines have twin Boltguns, move almost as fast but no fly, S4 T5 3+ 2W.

Naked, Spears are much better. But Marines can take 2 Specials (PG/Melta/Flamer/Grav) and 1 Combi even in a 3-man.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:58:48


Post by: Galas


Hm. But they pay for those special. Even spamming Plasma Guns I believe Shining Spears are all-around better costing less points. In meele combat they are just much, much better. I'm gonna look for the RW Black Knights rules to compare them.

And to be honest I can't see a Bike unit staying in combat more than one turn. And with the Saim-Haim trait they are even better (Not a problem with that, its how it should be), but yeah, they seem a little underpriced for what they do.

The 4++ and Fly keyword is a big deal. The problem of Marine Bikers is how fast they are killed even with T5.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 20:59:58


Post by: Fafnir


They're up there with Reapers and Hemlocks as being the best units in the Eldar codex, and pretty much what ends up defining them competitively with the above units.

As for what they have, they are a T4, W2 (W3 on free Exarch) model with a 3+ (4++ against shooting).

They get Laser lances and twin shuriken catapults, with the lances putting out 1 6" S6/AP-4/D2 shot per turn, and the catapults putting out 4 12" S4/AP0/D1 shots (AP-3 on a wound roll of 6).

In combat, on the turn they charge, they each get two (3 on the Exarch) attacks at S6/AP-4/D2 (Exarch can buy a special lance for 2 additional points that strikes at S8).

All this for 31ppm. They're very good. Deserving a nerf? I'm not sure. But there are a lot of Eldar units that pale in comparison (the codex as a whole seems to have a problem with having a few units that are amazing, and then being mostly filled with a bunch of others who are either terrible, or are already superseded in their role by better units). And to get back on my soap box, it's ridiculous that Spectres were nerfed to the excessive degree that they were while these guys are able to freely run around untouched.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:03:07


Post by: Xenomancers


4++ is a huge deal. Combined with the fact that they go to 2+/3++ with protect on them. Then if get quicken off - it's pretty much over.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:04:09


Post by: Farseer_V2


For clarity of discussion their 4++ is only against ranged weapons.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:07:54


Post by: Galas


A Dark Angel RW Black Knight has the normal stats of a marine biker but with 2A (3 on the champion) and LD8.

Their basic loadout is frag and krak grenades, one bolt pistol and:
-Corvus Hammer: S+1 (So S5) AP-1 and 1D (In a wound roll of 6, they do 3D damage)
Their bikes have Plasma Talons:
- 18" Assault 2 Plasma Guns (So S7/8 AP-3 D 1/2). But don't you dare to advance and overcharge or every 1 and 2 is a 50 model that goes pop.

All of this for 50 points per model. So they are much worse in meele and better at shooting, with a worse body. (Because a 4++ is much better than +1T. I know its only vs shooting, but lets be honest, thats what really matters. Lack of Fly and -2" of Movement) for 19 points more per model. Lets be honest, Black Knights aren't the best unit out there, but yeah.

I believe most bikes out there should be in the 28-50 point range, based in what they are, with Ork bikers in the low end and Eldar and SM bikers/jetbikers in the high end. I assume we could count Rough Riders and Daemonic cavalry in "bikes" equivalents, but those probably should be cheaper, more in the 18-25 point range. Khorne Bloodcrushers are monstrous cavalry so they are obviously deserve of costing more.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:13:39


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galas wrote:
A Dark Angel RW Black Knight has the normal stats of a marine biker but with 2A (3 on the champion) and LD8.

Their basic loadout is frag and krak grenades, one bolt pistol and:
-Corvus Hammer: S+1 (So S5) AP-1 and 1D (In a wound roll of 6, they do 3D damage)
Their bikes have Plasma Talons:
- 18" Assault 2 Plasma Guns (So S7/8 AP-3 D 1/2)

All of this for 50 points per model. So they are much worse in meele and better at shooting, with a worse body. (Because a 4++ is much better than +1T. I know its only vs shooting, but lets be honest, thats what really matters. Lack of Fly and -2" of Movement) for 19 points more per model. Lets be honest, Black Knights aren't the best unit out there, but yeah.

4 Shuriken shots are great. I wouldn't even say the Blackknights are better shooters.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:17:52


Post by: Bharring


An SM Biker with a PG is 40ppm. So you get 3 of them for every 4 Spears.

They can shoot 2 S7 AP-3 shots at 12", alongside their 4 boltgun shots. They can overcharge, but I agree it's not worth the risk.

Against non-multiwound models, or models with a FnP, isn't that about as good?

Spears need to stay in combat for 2 rounds (unless they wipe the unit), because they can't fall back in their opponent's turn. And they can't charge if they fell back.

I'm not saying Spears aren't good, but I'm seeing them as a little better than SM Bikers, not "The new OP".


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:18:05


Post by: Xenomancers


A company Vetren on a bike cost 58 points with a melta gun and a storm sheild. It's pretty comparable in firepower and ability to take damage. Has less close combat ability - less mobility - no fly keyword. It cost 27 points more. You practically get 2 SS for vetren biker. LOL


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:19:07


Post by: Bharring


Wait, explain that one, Xeno:
How is 2 Plasma shots at 18" range (non-overcharged) better than 4 Shuriken shots at 12" range? Does not compute?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:20:46


Post by: Xenomancers


Bharring wrote:
An SM Biker with a PG is 40ppm. So you get 3 of them for every 4 Spears.

They can shoot 2 S7 AP-3 shots at 12", alongside their 4 boltgun shots. They can overcharge, but I agree it's not worth the risk.

Against non-multiwound models, or models with a FnP, isn't that about as good?

Spears need to stay in combat for 2 rounds (unless they wipe the unit), because they can't fall back in their opponent's turn. And they can't charge if they fell back.

I'm not saying Spears aren't good, but I'm seeing them as a little better than SM Bikers, not "The new OP".

The fact that you can deep strike the spears to prevent alpha strike - and quicken them to ensure first turn assault makes them a lot better. Still - the 4++ save from shooting alone makes them superior to marine bikes - plus their close combat ability is better too.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:20:46


Post by: Galas


Bikes, like non-heavy cavalry in more fantasy/rank and file games, shouldn't be something you are using to charge directly in the enemy good meele units.

Staying two rounds in combat should be actually better for them that being out there in the open, because their objetives should be pretty bad at meele.

I have no problems with Shining Spears being better in meele in the turn they charge than SM bikers, more agile and movile. Heck, thats all the fantasy of the unit. But they are too more durable, and an Eldar Jetbike isn't something that should be more durable than a SM or a Ork bike.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:21:03


Post by: Bharring


Melta Gun has twice the range. Melta Gun does d6 damage vs flat 2. Melta Gun gets *2* dice and picks the highest at the same range as the Spear can shoot at all. 3++ is a lot better than a 4++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, I use my Spears as a bully troops. I like seeing Bikes used as bully troops as opposed to front lines - whether they're CSM, Orkz, or Spears.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:24:07


Post by: Xenomancers


Bharring wrote:
Wait, explain that one, Xeno:
How is 2 Plasma shots at 18" range (non-overcharged) better than 4 Shuriken shots at 12" range? Does not compute?

The laser lance is as good as one of those plasma shots - it's actually better because it gets 2 flat damage without having to try to kill itself and then 4 shuriken shots is better than a single plasma shot. Assuming they are in rage BUT - they will almost always be in range with quicken or really just advancing should put them in range.

It's also worth noting that the craft world biker can advance and shoot with no penalty.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:24:30


Post by: Bharring


I think I got my answer to how Spears are considered The New OP:

-They are good for their points
-Somehow 2x18" Plasma shots is outclassed by 4 ShuriCat shots
-Melta Guns and a 3++ pale in comparison to 6" range D:2 and a 4++
-CWE therefore OP, because everything always WWPs and gets Quicken'ed.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:25:56


Post by: Galas


I don't believe Shining Spears should go up in points by a big margin, probably a little. This Is probably a case of other bikers
(In general) being too expensive... and Plasma spam being too cheap and reliable.

And when you have plasma guns killing with ease bikers that lack invulnerable saves for 1/3 the cost...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:26:29


Post by: Xenomancers


A vetren biker with a storm sheild and a melta gun cost 58 points...compared to 31....did we miss that part?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:28:53


Post by: pm713


A veteran biker has a better invul, no? It's both better and works all the time.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:29:17


Post by: Bharring


And a shining Spear Exarch with Paragon Blade is 31 points, but you never see that taken either.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:30:42


Post by: Xenomancers


Bharring wrote:
And a shining Spear Exarch with Paragon Blade is 31 points, but you never see that taken either.

What is that? lol


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:33:04


Post by: Bharring


More specifically, on that Vet Biker:
He's got better shooting, by a great margin. MG is, appropriately, a much better gun than a Laser Lance.
He's much more survivable, in every case. Higher T. Better ++. His ++ isn't only for Ranged attacks.

The Spear is better, per point, in CC.

The Vet Sarge you bring up is never taken, because a ++ on Bikes isn't worth that many points, even when it's a 3++ that's always on. And Plasma is simply the better option than Melta in most cases in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paragon Blade? replaces the Laser Lance, reroll CC hits/wounds, same points - Exarch only.

It's in the rules of the Shining Spear, if you want to take a look at what they actually do.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:38:56


Post by: Galas


I'll be honest with you guys. Maybe Shining Spears have good rules, but I wouldn't change my Black Knights and their kick ass models for those ugly and old plastic-resin hybrid models!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 21:39:57


Post by: Bharring


Kitbash FTW!

Not a fan of Failcast, myself. Made mine with some bits from a variety of kits (Windriders, Cold One Riders, and Scourge, mostly).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:04:20


Post by: Xenomancers


Spears have the dumbest looking models known to man. I can agree with that 100%. I would have to make mine out of windriders and cold ones as Bharring suggested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shining spears are much less undercosted than warlock bikers are over-costed though.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:07:36


Post by: pm713


Somebody hasn't seen Jain Zar...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:08:56


Post by: DarknessEternal


Bharring wrote:
I think I got my answer to how Spears are considered The New OP:

-They are good for their points
-Somehow 2x18" Plasma shots is outclassed by 4 ShuriCat shots
-Melta Guns and a 3++ pale in comparison to 6" range D:2 and a 4++
-CWE therefore OP, because everything always WWPs and gets Quicken'ed.


Yes, and don't forget Quicken costs no extra points, has unlimited range, and always works. Same with Webway Portal, it's free and unlimited.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:12:06


Post by: Bharring


And I agree that Shining Spears are undercosted. I just don't see them being terribly undercosted.

I like Spears in small units being a thing. I hope the meta doesn't move to max-units. I'm sure a max unit of Spears with lots of buffs wouldn't be fun to play against, whether it was OP or not.

Warlocks on bikes are hard to balance. They can take a Spear for a S9 gun in addition to their TLSC (not as good as last edition, because high S doesn't mean as much), wound on 2's in CC, can attempt to deny, and can hide behind any other units (as long as they're not in conclaves).

I actually think the foot-Warlock is about right (it doesn't get full-smite). I just think there are better options in the CWE book. But, on foot, a Spirit Seer is barely more points, better stats, doesn't have the same high chance to go poof in one Perils, and gets 2 powers.

The Warlock on bike is probably only a little overcosted. It's still a force multiplier if something else is in front of it. Even aside from the powers, wounding on 2s can be nice (but not as big a deal as last edition). The problem is the only units that step in front of it well can be kept up with on foot.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:21:03


Post by: chrispy1991


Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:32:15


Post by: Bharring


That list doesn't look fun to play against.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:42:02


Post by: Marmatag


Anything with multiple wounds and a 4++ is automatically strong.

It is immediately more durable than terminators, or Grey Knight terminators, which are 40+ PPM, move 5", and get a storm bolter. They have better melee, too.

This doesn't make them OP.

But it does make them undercosted.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:52:32


Post by: Galef


Just to weigh in here, Spear are costed about right. Windriders are what is over-costed in comparison. The only thing that should go up in cost is the Exarch's Star lance. For only 2ppm more than a Laser Lance (6ppm), you get Str8. Since the Star lance is the main reason you get an Exarch (besides the free extra wound) it should cost about twice what a regular LL costs.

The reason they can never be considered OP is that they are basically Flying Primaris Marines. T4 with 2W is pretty easy to kill, even with a 4++ against shooting.
Sure Protect and Quicken make them even better, but you have to spend points on the Psyker to use those and at 7 to cast, trust me, they are far from reliable.
So far I have yet to have both powers go off in the same turn, despite dedicating 2 Warlocks to my Spear unit.

What you should really be considering is an Autarch Skyrunner with Reaper launcher & Banshee mask. It's like having 2 Shining Spears fused together with a Dark Reaper hitching a ride. Not allowing Overwatch is all the sweeter.

-


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:52:48


Post by: Bharring


More durable than Termies against things with AP-3 or better. Worse against anything else. Termies have a 2+ base compared to these guys' 3+ base. Further, Termies don't lose their ++ in CC. And Spears need to get into CC to really do their work.

Laser Lances are good - S6 the first round, S3 after that, always AP-4 and D2 But Power Fists are better. -1 to hit, but always S8. Ap-3 and D:d3. Same number of attacks. And Spears are t4 3+/- 2W, whereas Termies are t4 2+/5++ 2W.

Spears are *not* better in CC than Termies.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:58:38


Post by: Galef


Bharring wrote:
Spears are *not* better in CC than Termies.

I agree with this, but would add 1 caveat that Spears can actually make it to melee, whereas Termies have a much harder time, often relying on 9" charges.

-


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:58:44


Post by: Galas


I have never understood this logic of comparing one unit agaisn't the other to say what one is better at meele. Is like comparing Death Company and Khorne Berzerkers of Genestealers. In many cases, it comes down to who charges who.
The one that charges wins.

A unit is much more than his meele capabilities, as we have discuss in the Bloodletter thread. How fast it is, how reliable it can reach meele, etc... are even more important.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 22:59:47


Post by: Fafnir


And you can't really discount spear shooting. Sure, it's close range, but it's also incredibly good.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:00:37


Post by: Bharring


Certainly Spears are better than Termies. Tacs are better than Termies, even. But claims of Spears being more durable or being better in CC should be cleared up.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:04:24


Post by: Galas


Personally, for me, "Being better in CC" isn't just doing damage in meele or surviving meele, or killing the other unit faster (Because theres anti-horde meele and anti-elite meele), but being ABLE to reach meele too.

For example, theres not many units that can beat Custodes in meele mano-a-mano for the same points, specially if they are elite units. But they don't have a way to reach meele. Only in a Land Raider. And thats too expensive.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:09:05


Post by: Bharring


What I'm getting from this thread is that Spears are really good, but not OP gak (on their own).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:11:48


Post by: Galas


Spears are a little undercosted. Other bikers go from "Very overcosted" to "A little overcosted".

But bikers will never have a place (If they are properly balanced) as long as plasma is as dominant as it is now. At least, tournament-level speaking. If your local-meta doesn't spam plasma, then you are in luck. Thats my case and I can play Primaris and Terminators all day without being destroyed.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:29:37


Post by: Fafnir


 Galas wrote:
If your local-meta doesn't spam plasma


...I am responsible for so much suffering in this world...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:32:28


Post by: BlaxicanX


Melee unit

Overpowered

Loving every laugh.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/05 23:46:18


Post by: DarknessEternal


 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.

How did you manage to lose 2 vehicles and have 4 others damaged by 3 brightlances and shuriken catapults?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 00:13:01


Post by: Fast pointy ear


Xenomancers wrote:A vetren biker with a storm sheild and a melta gun cost 58 points...compared to 31....did we miss that part?


To paraphrase a long held balance philosophy in card games, "Its not powercreep if the previous version was never used".
Using overcosted units as the baseline to compare just makes everything seem OP.

Hell, someone was complaining about how OP Vypers were when compared to Land Speeders in another thread recently. Neither are competitive options at the moment.

Marmatag wrote:Anything with multiple wounds and a 4++ is automatically strong.

It is immediately more durable than terminators, or Grey Knight terminators, which are 40+ PPM, move 5", and get a storm bolter. They have better melee, too.

This doesn't make them OP.

But it does make them undercosted.


See above.

Galas wrote:I have never understood this logic of comparing one unit against the other to say what one is better at melee. Is like comparing Death Company and Khorne Berzerkers of Genestealers. In many cases, it comes down to who charges who.
The one that charges wins.

A unit is much more than his melee capabilities, as we have discuss in the Bloodletter thread. How fast it is, how reliable it can reach melee, etc... are even more important.


Part of the reason Spears are held so highly by Eldar players is that they not only win the raw mathhammer side of things vs. the other close combat Aspects but also have all of the out of combat advantages too. When one unit is more efficient at killing the most common infantry statline (MeQ), more durable per point, faster and better at shooting something is seriously wrong with the internal balancing.

(the numbers vs. MeQ)
5 SS with Exarch with Starlance : 30.06 points per wound inflicted
10 HB with Exarch with Executioner : 32.88 points per wound inflicted
10 SS with Exarch with Scorpions Claw : 31.81 points per wound inflicted

Against multiwound models this advantage only grows.

Bharring wrote:What I'm getting from this thread is that Spears are really good, but not OP gak (on their own).


They are the best Aspect close combat unit by a fair margin. Either a nerf to their survivability (making the invulnerable more conditional, for example) or a small points increase should sort them out.
As with most of the better Craftworld options though, an allied Ynarri detachment exacerbates the problem from 'that's an efficient unit' to a balance issue.

Bharring wrote:Kitbash FTW!

Not a fan of Failcast, myself. Made mine with some bits from a variety of kits (Windriders, Cold One Riders, and Scourge, mostly).


As someone with the old twin shuriken catapult bikes thats looking for a way to make them actually playable, could you send me some pictures?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 00:54:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 DarknessEternal wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.

How did you manage to lose 2 vehicles and have 4 others damaged by 3 brightlances and shuriken catapults?

Probably rolled hot with the Damage on the Lances and Rend for the Catapults. It's super unlikely it happens, but I didn't read the battle report.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 08:45:41


Post by: craftworld_uk


The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...



Or use a third party stand in...



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 09:11:26


Post by: fresus


Spears are pretty much always useful. With great movement, a high S weapon, and a low S high RoF one, they'll always have a good target to engage. So they're reliable, and can deal a great deal of damage if they can use all their assets in the same turn. It's also a by-product of 8th ed. rules, since you can shoot 2 different units and charge a 3rd one now, so mixing weapon types is actually decent now.

They're also prime candidates for Ynnari detachments.
You use soulburst shooting on dark reapers, and movement/charge/fight on spears.

I think they're a bit too cheap given how many things they can do. Not insanely OP, but a couple more points (and an additional point increase on the exarch's weapon) would do it.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 10:40:43


Post by: Fafnir


There is no world where Spears should cost less than Spectres. Period. Take of that what you will.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 12:21:49


Post by: sadhvikv


 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.


You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?

In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.

Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat

They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 13:19:24


Post by: Galef


 Fafnir wrote:
There is no world where Spears should cost less than Spectres. Period. Take of that what you will.

I'd agree with this. But I this Spectres got an over nerf with CA. They needed to be more expensive, sure, but not 10ppm more. They are still a 1W T3 model
Shining spears did not change from the Index to the Codex, aside from points. They dropped about 10ppm overall and about 35ppm seems about right for them.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 13:35:22


Post by: Elbows


Shining Spears are strong, but I'd say not over-powered.

At the end of the day it's still (starting) a unit of Tough 4 models with 7 wounds and 3+/4+ armour --- meaning they die immediately to assault cannons, bolt guns, etc.

As a strong one-hit pouncing unit? They excel. I hide mine if I can and just jump out to get a single turn attack in. Normally they die quickly after unless I'm lucky. Like most Eldar stuff they're not very robust.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:07:38


Post by: Quickjager


 Elbows wrote:
Shining Spears are strong, but I'd say not over-powered.

At the end of the day it's still (starting) a unit of Tough 4 models with 7 wounds and 3+/4+ armour --- meaning they die immediately to assault cannons, bolt guns, etc.

As a strong one-hit pouncing unit? They excel. I hide mine if I can and just jump out to get a single turn attack in. Normally they die quickly after unless I'm lucky. Like most Eldar stuff they're not very robust.


I mean, anything dies to assault cannons; it IS why the AssBack is the choice of transport for C:SM. Like I haven't seen the local Eldar use them so I can't say I know from experience but like maybe they are 2ppm undercosted. That is a pretty good stat-line that you just said, toss the movement onto it and anyone sees a pretty good unit. But the problem is that it is a melee unit in a codex of primarily shooting units, so it has next to no support. I can't see much potential for abuse. Right now there is other fish to fry that are actually op.

Bharring what prompted this thread?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:20:17


Post by: Elbows


I would be curious how many "Shining Spears" are being proxied by the now-less-than-stellar Scatbikes people had...and if that's ending up with large units of "not" Shining Spears running around the tables.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:35:50


Post by: Bharring


My Shining Spears aren't the best kitbashing work. There are much, much better options.

I used the old WIndrider kit, not the new one (wasn't out at the time). Left arm on the control, right arm holding the Lance. Chestpieces I think were Reavers, backplates were Scourges with the middle powercells removed (so the lances would fit, and makes them more distinctive). Removed the right-side handlebars. Used Scourge heads - but had to get 3 of the helms that were full helms with only eyeslits - they need to be uniform. For the Exarch, with a little care and some trimming, two spare handlebars made some cool looking horns (as the Exarch's helm should have additional ornamentation.

I used Dark Elf Cold One lances, with the tips removed, for the Laser Lances. It looks good. For the Star Lance (all my Exarchs have a weapon "upgrade"), I used a Silver Helms lance without removing the tip. You want the Laser Lances to all look identical, though, so be careful what you pick.

I'd strongly suggest not using the lances I did though. I've seen much better versions that used Brightlance shafts mounted on either Fantasy lance pommels or a lancepommel made of two trimmed ShuriKats back-to-back (looks like one cone instead of two pieces).

For helms, I'm thinking there are better Fantasy helms for the purpose. I'm thinking Dragon Princes helms - with the biggest for the Exarch - might look good. My Exodite counts-as do that. Although I've never fielded both my CWE Shining Spears and my Exodite Shining Spears in the same list (my Exodites don't look all that great, and the rules changes really killed the character of my models).

Quickjager,
There were posts in other threads about them being OP, including them being the most OP in the game. Didn't want to derail those threads with this topic.

Back on topic, I think I agree they'd be better at 35-38 ppm, or something like that. I'm really glad they have a place as hard-hitter. And if they fail in their job, they're basically dead. The 8th Ed rules were very kind to them, and some of our stratagems/traits/powers do great things for them.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:36:53


Post by: Marfuzzo


Since 8th came out I never played a game without. My preferit unit in the game since I play. On paper they can seem OP, IMHO I don't think they are... If you play them wisely they are a must have, perfect sinergy with the battle runes, amazingly quick, basically you can go and get any objective on the table most of the time in one turn, getting rid of any sort of small unit.
But they have super short range fire, and if the opponent counter charge them they are gone.
Said this... I would never drop my 4+ exarch


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:37:23


Post by: Bharring


Also: looks like I did post a picture after kitbashing:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/632194-Shining%20Spear.html?m=2


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:39:30


Post by: craftworld_uk


I don't mean to take the thread off topic, but while we're talking Eldar and Jetbikes...

Maybe it's the horrifically overcosted Warlock Conclave on Jetbikes that makes Shining Spears seem cheap in comparison. Has anyone figured out a cost effective use for them yet?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/06 14:58:14


Post by: Bharring


No. I'm not expecting Conclaves to be effective this edition.

Warlocks on Bikes may have some uses, but are a little overcosted. But Warlocks' real problem is being overshadowed by the Spirit Seer which can take the relic to keep up for free, and having a not-unreasonable chance to insta-splat himself each time he manifests a power (Uthwe actually reduces that chance quite a bit - accidental fluffyness!).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And losing Character protection and points efficiency at casting powers just for the stratagem either gets a small unit killed very, very quickly, or makes a large unit not effective (and still die fast).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 13:51:26


Post by: Elbows


Conclaves are utter garbage with no reason to use them...avoid them at all costs.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 15:13:29


Post by: chrispy1991


sadhvikv wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.


You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?

In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.

Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat

They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.


Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.

As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.

Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.

Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 15:22:54


Post by: Xenomancers


 chrispy1991 wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.


You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?

In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.

Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat

They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.


Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.

As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.

Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.

Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.


Under-costed and OP mean exactly the same thing. OP literally means - too much power for the cost. Spears could totally be fixed by increasing their price by about 10 points.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 15:38:16


Post by: Kdash


craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoiler:
The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...



Or use a third party stand in...



Wow, loving the look of those 3rd party Spears! Which company does them? I haven't ordered up my standard spears yet (as they were out of stock for ages) but these look so much better!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 15:55:13


Post by: Farseer_V2


Xenomancers thinks an Eldar unit needs an unwarranted points increase? What's next - snow in December?

Shining Spears - much like nearly everything else in the Eldar codex fills a niche role. They're still T4 models, they are roughly as durable as 2 space marines a piece. The idea that they should be 40+ points a piece is mind boggling. But I also get the general idea here is 'do Eldar players use it?, yes? too cheap, needs to be pointed into not being taken'.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 16:13:48


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


Kdash wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoiler:
The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...



Or use a third party stand in...



Wow, loving the look of those 3rd party Spears! Which company does them? I haven't ordered up my standard spears yet (as they were out of stock for ages) but these look so much better!


I, too, would love to know where those come from. They look great.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 16:21:44


Post by: Saber


Those are from Ghost Miniatures, in Russia.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 16:46:15


Post by: Xenomancers


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Xenomancers thinks an Eldar unit needs an unwarranted points increase? What's next - snow in December?

Shining Spears - much like nearly everything else in the Eldar codex fills a niche role. They're still T4 models, they are roughly as durable as 2 space marines a piece. The idea that they should be 40+ points a piece is mind boggling. But I also get the general idea here is 'do Eldar players use it?, yes? too cheap, needs to be pointed into not being taken'.

I don't think you have been following the thread. A points increase is totally warranted.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:04:38


Post by: Farseer_V2


Maybe by 1-3 pts a model. 10 pts a model is totally unwarranted and takes the unit from being a solid anti-horde unit that will see play to a unit that will sit on the shelf. The fact that other units are inappropriately costed on the high side doesn't mean you should simply push shining spears to those same unusable levels. Or are we just interested in not seeing bikes in play in general?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:06:36


Post by: xmbk


I've been following it. Spears need a point increase about the same time as 30-50 other units in the game.

The main problem so far in this edition is internal balance, where only a few units in each codex shine. Either those top few get reduced, or all the others get buffed. But singling out Spears is silly. Virtually every army that has a codex has comparable or better units. Eldar have at least 2 that are better. Spears aren't that far off the sweet spot.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:17:12


Post by: Galef


Obviously GW disagrees that Spears need an increase considering they specifically and intentionally decreased their points from Index to Codex.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:18:52


Post by: xmbk


 Xenomancers wrote:

Under-costed and OP mean exactly the same thing. OP literally means - too much power for the cost. Spears could totally be fixed by increasing their price by about 10 points.


No, then they would be UP. Calling every model that is even one point undercosted OP is certainly redefining standard use of that term.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:18:52


Post by: Xenomancers


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Maybe by 1-3 pts a model. 10 pts a model is totally unwarranted and takes the unit from being a solid anti-horde unit that will see play to a unit that will sit on the shelf. The fact that other units are inappropriately costed on the high side doesn't mean you should simply push shining spears to those same unusable levels. Or are we just interested in not seeing bikes in play in general?

What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
Obviously GW disagrees that Spears need an increase considering they specifically and intentionally decreased their points from Index to Codex.

There is no sense to their point increases and decreases. They seem almost completely random.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:24:21


Post by: xmbk


 chrispy1991 wrote:
Spoiler:
sadhvikv wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page

The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.


You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?

In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.

Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat

They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.


Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.

As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.


Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.

Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.


I just can't agree that there are no tactics to a game like that. Spears have a shooting range of 28", including movement. Only one unit can move 22" and still assault. Unless it was a very strange board, you certainly could have deployed outside this range, which would have been to your advantage. Using a Tallarn Heavy certainly puts tactical elements under your control.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:39:37


Post by: Ratius


I would be curious how many "Shining Spears" are being proxied by the now-less-than-stellar Scatbikes people had...and if that's ending up with large units of "not" Shining Spears running around the tables.


Guilty as charged, your honor.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:45:55


Post by: Farseer_V2


 Xenomancers wrote:
What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.



Let's break down the hyperbole here a bit. It's a Plasma Pistol with a 6" Range and 1 to 2 less strength so giving it strictly the same cost as a plasma pistol is disingenuous. Additionally it is only a +2 S Power Sword on a round on combat the spears charged, otherwise it its a S3 weapon with a still reputable AP and damage profile. Trying to draw cost parallels between two similar pieces of equipment doesn't work because it ignores the context of the unit. I think the spear does deserve a discounted price from the Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon Setup because it is more situational in its application. If Spears were costed at 33-34 ppm I'd be OK (bumping the cost of the lance from 8 to 10 or 11 ppm would be fair). At 40 they're too fragile and too limited in their scope to be worth taking.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:51:12


Post by: Elbows


That's the crux of the argument really...the lances are very strong in exceptionally limited situations. 6" shooting range and powered up on the turn of the charge?

As far as durability - if you can't kill 7 wounds of Space Marine toughness, there's a whole other issue. Now, someone spamming them with large squads all over the board? Perhaps a bigger issue.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:55:51


Post by: Farseer_V2


 Elbows wrote:
As far as durability - if you can't kill 7 wounds of Space Marine toughness, there's a whole other issue. Now, someone spamming them with large squads all over the board? Perhaps a bigger issue.


I agree with this 100% - they get worse as a larger group when they can begin to benefit from single source conceal, protect, and fortune but I don't think they're anymore guilty of being a deathstar than any other units are right now.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 17:57:12


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


IMO, it's not worth trying with Xenomancers. Everything aside from SM are OP according to him, and he's going to continue arguing and making posts about that until the apocalpyse hits and Bobby G gets his points reduced to 3.

 Elbows wrote:
That's the crux of the argument really...the lances are very strong in exceptionally limited situations. 6" shooting range and powered up on the turn of the charge?


As an aside, this is why I love Eldar philosophy of army building - you get units that are very strong in specific situations, but very much less so in other situations.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 18:10:47


Post by: Xenomancers


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.



Let's break down the hyperbole here a bit. It's a Plasma Pistol with a 6" Range and 1 to 2 less strength so giving it strictly the same cost as a plasma pistol is disingenuous. Additionally it is only a +2 S Power Sword on a round on combat the spears charged, otherwise it its a S3 weapon with a still reputable AP and damage profile. Trying to draw cost parallels between two similar pieces of equipment doesn't work because it ignores the context of the unit. I think the spear does deserve a discounted price from the Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon Setup because it is more situational in its application. If Spears were costed at 33-34 ppm I'd be OK (bumping the cost of the lance from 8 to 10 or 11 ppm would be fair). At 40 they're too fragile and too limited in their scope to be worth taking.

Nothing about what I said qualifies as hyperbole. I picked the 2 closest weapons to the starlances abilities I could think of and combined their cost and admitted that they werent a perfect example - the starlance actually has better close combat stats than a MCpower sword and a little bit worse shooting stats...BUT it can't kill the user and can advance and shoot. Using their points as a proxy puts the unit at 40 points without even accounting for the +1 save +1 attack and 4++ save to shooting (which you claim makes them too fragile) FYI 4++ saves on models with 2 wounds aren't fragile -esp when they have a 3+ save to protect from small arms. They are an exceptionally tough unit even at 40 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
That's the crux of the argument really...the lances are very strong in exceptionally limited situations. 6" shooting range and powered up on the turn of the charge?

As far as durability - if you can't kill 7 wounds of Space Marine toughness, there's a whole other issue. Now, someone spamming them with large squads all over the board? Perhaps a bigger issue.

I've play against them 5 times now. What do you mean by situational? Do you mean that they will always be in range to shoot turn 1 even without psychic support and with psychic support can probably engage any unit in your army? That's not situational. Here's an example of something that is situational - aggressors getting to shoot twice if they didn't move with 18 inch range weapons - that is situational.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 18:42:33


Post by: xmbk


If you hyperbole your hyperbole, is that hyperbole^2?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 18:45:43


Post by: Xenomancers


If you can point out what lines I posted were exaggerated or not to be taken seriously - I will gladly clarify.

btw 0^2 is still 0.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 19:13:13


Post by: Farseer_V2


 Xenomancers wrote:



Nothing about what I said qualifies as hyperbole. I picked the 2 closest weapons to the starlances abilities I could think of and combined their cost and admitted that they werent a perfect example - the starlance actually has better close combat stats than a MCpower sword and a little bit worse shooting stats...BUT it can't kill the user and can advance and shoot. Using their points as a proxy puts the unit at 40 points without even accounting for the +1 save +1 attack and 4++ save to shooting (which you claim makes them too fragile) FYI 4++ saves on models with 2 wounds aren't fragile -esp when they have a 3+ save to protect from small arms. They are an exceptionally tough unit even at 40 points.


First if we're pointing out hyperbole - the phrase 'downright criminal to play them' is clearly hyperbole. Also as you state you chose the closest weapons - not the weapons - so you cannot use those valuations without editing for variance. A plasma pistol with 1 or 2 less strength and 6" less range is clearly not worth the same as a plasma pistol. Nor would a master crafted power sword be worth the same if it only functioned in the turn you charge. The weapon gets a discount as a result of those 2 factors. Until you acknowledge that you're working from a flawed basis (applying a strict point conversion method to an inexact match) no further conversation can be had. You've established a set PPM you'd like to see Spears at and you won't step back to understand you're using an incorrect method to account for the cost of the unit. The unit is if not appropriately costed very close based on the fact that it is a high impact unit that has to be used well to excel. It functions like most other Eldar units in that it occupies a niche and is good there and is pointed to account for the lack of other options that accomplish the same goal in the book.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 19:20:58


Post by: Elbows


Way to miss the point...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 19:27:25


Post by: Hoodwink


ITT: Shining Spears are finally worth taking. An update for anyone just joining the conversation.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 19:46:04


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.[/size]


But it's not exactly a plasma pistol is it? So it's cheaper, S7 is an arguably more important breakpoint since it is more effective against vehicles and monstrous creatures than S6, it's also half the range, which probably factors in slightly. The not-quite master-crafted power sword, that only get's +2 S when it charges, so again, not quite as good, so it's not an apples to apples comparison. I mean it really starts to get into some nebulous territory, they clearly don't have all the same advantages, so they should be priced differently, the price of the bike itself is priced differently because it assumes the presence of a T3 rider, but it has the fly keyword, so how much does that cost, but it's T4 vs T5 which means that it's in a sweet spot to be wounded on a 3+ by a large percentage of the anti-horde weaponry out there, we could spend all kinds of time going down this pretty subjective rabbit hole. I think I fall in the category of it being a bit too close to call conclusively.

I think the point has already been hit upon in that SM/CSM bikers getting a point reduction would probably bring them more closely in line with Shining Spears. The point being that the solution isn't always to up the price on something, if the comparable unit is not being fielded (as in the case of SM/CSM bikers), then increasing the cost of Shining Spears isn't going to get more bikers on the table, but decreasing the cost might.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no sense to their point increases and decreases. They seem almost completely random.


Seem being the operative word here. Our insight into the design and balancing process is obviously limited, but we can assume that some combination of internal testing, sales, event play, and community feedback comprise the metrics used to make such decisions. Saying definitively how those factors are weighted in such an assessment is masturbatory conjecture at best.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:02:57


Post by: Galef


Hoodwink wrote:
ITT: Shining Spears are finally worth taking. An update for anyone just joining the conversation.

Just to add to this:

"Shining Spears are finally worth taking....so they must need a points increase!"


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:17:32


Post by: Xenomancers


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:



Nothing about what I said qualifies as hyperbole. I picked the 2 closest weapons to the starlances abilities I could think of and combined their cost and admitted that they werent a perfect example - the starlance actually has better close combat stats than a MCpower sword and a little bit worse shooting stats...BUT it can't kill the user and can advance and shoot. Using their points as a proxy puts the unit at 40 points without even accounting for the +1 save +1 attack and 4++ save to shooting (which you claim makes them too fragile) FYI 4++ saves on models with 2 wounds aren't fragile -esp when they have a 3+ save to protect from small arms. They are an exceptionally tough unit even at 40 points.


First if we're pointing out hyperbole - the phrase 'downright criminal to play them' is clearly hyperbole. Also as you state you chose the closest weapons - not the weapons - so you cannot use those valuations without editing for variance. A plasma pistol with 1 or 2 less strength and 6" less range is clearly not worth the same as a plasma pistol. Nor would a master crafted power sword be worth the same if it only functioned in the turn you charge. The weapon gets a discount as a result of those 2 factors. Until you acknowledge that you're working from a flawed basis (applying a strict point conversion method to an inexact match) no further conversation can be had. You've established a set PPM you'd like to see Spears at and you won't step back to understand you're using an incorrect method to account for the cost of the unit. The unit is if not appropriately costed very close based on the fact that it is a high impact unit that has to be used well to excel. It functions like most other Eldar units in that it occupies a niche and is good there and is pointed to account for the lack of other options that accomplish the same goal in the book.

The niche they fill right now is - killing too much for too little and being to hard to kill in return. My assessment of weapon costing is correct. You are taking away too much value from the lance weapon. It's still ap -4 d2 in proceding rounds of close/combat (it just loses the str bonus) which is already an insanely powerful profile for a melle weapon (not that it matters - they kill whatever unit they charge anyways). Plus it's shooting profile is equal to a plasma pistol in value. You can advance and shoot it with no pentalty so it's range is effectively the same (they auto advance 6 inches). It has better ap AND it does 2 flat damage without risking killing it's self. Competitively it's better than a plasma pistol - because killing yourself is basically always bad. So unless your argument is that you should get free stats on units - you have basically lost this argument.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:20:48


Post by: Farseer_V2


Cool - so per usual you aren't interested in discourse or anything remotely similar. Lesson learned, this is the 2nd or 3rd thread where I've seen that you're effectively interested in stating your opinion and then that being the end of the conversation. Thank goodness you have no influence on the actual state of the game.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:36:07


Post by: Xenomancers


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Cool - so per usual you aren't interested in discourse or anything remotely similar. Lesson learned, this is the 2nd or 3rd thread where I've seen that you're effectively interested in stating your opinion and then that being the end of the conversation. Thank goodness you have no influence on the actual state of the game.
I'm really not stating opinions. I'm posting actual facts about what similar weapons costs and demonstrated if you add those cost together you are already over 40 points for a spear - without even accounting for the other stats it has over a wind rider (which includes a 4++ save to shooting as well...LOL). You could counter my statements if you had some facts you could post about similar weapons for less points - but you wont find any because they don't exist. AKA Shining spears are OP.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:47:40


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
The niche they fill right now is - killing too much for too little and being to hard to kill in return.


Hasty generalization - which to be fair is a result of your constant desire to retreat into hyperbole and emotional appeal.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My assessment of weapon costing is correct.


Argument from authority - you being the authority. Put your math and points breakdown in place and you can at least have the foundation by which to make an absolutist statement like this. You haven't despite your loose claims that it's better than a Plasma Pistol.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are taking away too much value from the lance weapon. It's still ap -4 d2 in proceding rounds of close/combat (it just loses the str bonus) which is already an insanely powerful profile for a melle weapon (not that it matters - they kill whatever unit they charge anyways). Plus it's shooting profile is equal to a plasma pistol in value.


Just losing the strength bonus is kind of a big deal, as much as you'd like to dismiss it, since all the rest of those stats are pretty meaningless unless you have the strength to bring them to bear. Going from S5 to S4 means T8+ is wounded on a 6, going from S4 to S3 means that T6+ is wounded on a 6, but more importantly, you go from 2 or 3+ wounding against base troops to 4 or 5+ wounding, dropping 33% effectiveness for the rest of those "wildly overpowered blarghflaffinblagh!" stats. Also, for 279 point, you can get 9 of them, making 18 attacks on the charge, that's not an insignificant investment, and here's the thing, they will not kill whatever they charge, on average, they will probably kill 10 (9.33 with a standard deviation of 2.12 against MEQ), against T7 (standard vehicle/monstrous creature toughness) it drops to less than 5 wounds, not even killing a dreadnought that costs half the points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can advance and shoot it with no pentalty so it's range is effectively the same (they auto advance 6 inches). It has better ap AND it does 2 flat damage without risking killing it's self. Competitively it's better than a plasma pistol - because killing yourself is basically always bad. So unless your argument is that you should get free stats on units - you have basically lost this argument.


False equivalency - So because of the context in which it exists (on a fast moving bike) the range cannot be used in the comparison? Am I allowed to say that because SM always surround their plasma with the ability to re-roll 1s that the fact that they could kill the user cannot be used in the comparison? The fact that S6 is significantly less useful against most transports and monstrous creatures than S7 is completely irrelevant as well?

I mean I'm not stating one way or another, but you're not even interested in having a discussion or hearing other opinions, you've disingenuously engaged in a debate wherein you have a predetermined outcome in mind and have no interest in actually getting into specifics. Why should anyone waste time discussing this stuff with you?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 21:51:34


Post by: Fafnir


Put Spears and Reapers up by 5ppm, bring Spectres down by 5ppm, Dragons and Spiders down by 2ppm,, give Scorpions -1AP and a rule giving +1A for every group of 10 models (so 1-10 models, +1A, 11-20 models, +2A, etc) they're in combat with.

Banshees still need something, but otherwise, that would put the aspects all on pretty solid, reasonable footing.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 22:04:57


Post by: Xenomancers


do you have an argument? or are you just going to poke at mine...do you think the range portion should cost slightly less than a plasma gun? 6 points? Maybe 5? Even though it's superior vs everything that isn't a tank? Is an assault weapon...and has better AP? And does 2 damage without risk of overheat kill?

Is that your argument? You have to actually have an argument to make an argument. Just assigning random fallacies to someone elses points isn't an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think my favorite thing I've heard about spears in this thread is that they are a "niche unit". LOL.

Snipers are a niche unit - they are only good against certain kinds of characters - rarely will they make their points back unless the feild is flodded with 1 wound heros.

Spears are not a niche unit. Spears are a bulldozer unit that destroy everything in their path and then are hard to kill in return. Their niche is underpriced destruction LOL.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 22:12:22


Post by: Farseer_V2


 Xenomancers wrote:
do you have an argument? or are you just going to poke at mine...do you think the range portion should cost slightly less than a plasma gun? 6 points? Maybe 5? Even though it's superior vs everything that isn't a tank? Is an assault weapon...and has better AP? And does 2 damage without risk of overheat kill?

Is that your argument? You have to actually have an argument to make an argument. Just assigning random fallacies to someone elses points isn't an argument.


No one has to counter your argument when it is a flawed and fallacious argument. There is no compelling reason to offer any evidence to counter yours because your argument is founded on inconsistencies.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 22:15:47


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
do you have an argument? or are you just going to poke at mine...do you think the range portion should cost slightly less than a plasma gun? 6 points? Maybe 5? Even though it's superior vs everything that isn't a tank? Is an assault weapon...and has better AP? And does 2 damage without risk of overheat kill?

Is that your argument? You have to actually have an argument to make an argument. Just assigning random fallacies to someone elses points isn't an argument.


They aren't random fallacies, they're rather specific actually.

No I don't have an argument other than your methodology of debate is woefully lacking and simply retreats into hyperbole and emotional appeal. I at least took a look at the math, which clearly shows that they don't "destroy anything they attack". Against the right target, absolutely, they will be devastating (as long as the death of ~10 guys is devastating to the unit), if your opponent manages to feed them something less appetizing, not so much. In the right circumstances a Plasma Pistol will actually be far superior to the Lance, specifically against any high toughness targets. But the way you're pitching it, they're the second coming of Girlyman.

I mean if that's your point great, we can wrap up your contribution to this debate with "Xeno thinks this, but can't be bothered to show his work.", thanks for your participation.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 22:44:46


Post by: xmbk


 Xenomancers wrote:
If you can point out what lines I posted were exaggerated or not to be taken seriously - I will gladly clarify.

btw 0^2 is still 0.


Nah, you've clearly crossed over into irrational numbers. I eagerly anticipate the next step in your "I'm rubber and your glue" argument.

Please call the police to arrest me, because I'm fielding Spears this weekend. Hopefully the incredibly overcosted Leman Russes they'll be facing won't be too butthurt.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/07 22:49:01


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:
do you have an argument? or are you just going to poke at mine...do you think the range portion should cost slightly less than a plasma gun? 6 points? Maybe 5? Even though it's superior vs everything that isn't a tank? Is an assault weapon...and has better AP? And does 2 damage without risk of overheat kill?

Is that your argument? You have to actually have an argument to make an argument. Just assigning random fallacies to someone elses points isn't an argument.


What's the point of refuting your argument (which has been done now - repeatedly and roundly), if you won't even consider the simple fact that it's been refuted? You know, there's that old saying about playing chess with pigeons.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 04:01:51


Post by: bananathug


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
do you have an argument? or are you just going to poke at mine...do you think the range portion should cost slightly less than a plasma gun? 6 points? Maybe 5? Even though it's superior vs everything that isn't a tank? Is an assault weapon...and has better AP? And does 2 damage without risk of overheat kill?

Is that your argument? You have to actually have an argument to make an argument. Just assigning random fallacies to someone elses points isn't an argument.

Snip
I at least took a look at the math, which clearly shows that they don't "destroy anything they attack". Against the right target, absolutely, they will be devastating (as long as the death of ~10 guys is devastating to the unit), if your opponent manages to feed them something less appetizing, not so much. In the right circumstances a Plasma Pistol will actually be far superior to the Lance, specifically against any high toughness targets. But the way you're pitching it, they're the second coming of Girlyman.

I mean if that's your point great, we can wrap up your contribution to this debate with "Xeno thinks this, but can't be bothered to show his work.", thanks for your participation.


Spears are great against infantry, even better against elite infantry, even better against multi-wound infantry and better than one of the best units against tanks:

My math could be way off and I hope it is but, I don't have my book infront of me but spears are 31 and exarchs with the star lance are 33 right?

t4 3+ 1 wound
.66 x .66 per lance x3 + .66 x .5 x .33 per shrunken x4 = 1.4 wounds per spear or ppw of 22.1 (better if I start counting rending on 6s)
.66 x .66 x4 + .66 x .5 x .33 = 1.74 or 18.9 ppw
11 ppw against multi-wound t4 3+ (bye bye primaris)

one turn return of 58.9% on naked marines, 100% on 2 las-cannon dev squads, 81% v. primaris 150% v. hellblasters

t7-11 3+ monster/vehicle
.66 x .33 x 3 x 2 = 1.3 + .66 x .16 x .33 x 4 = .13 for 1.43 wounds per spear or 21.6 ppw
.66 x .54 x 4 x 2 = 2.85 + .66 x .29 x .33 x 4 = .25 for 3.1 wounds per exarch or 10 ppw

So a squad of 3 + an exarch has a ppw of 18.7

For comparison the best SM tank hunter (quad las pred) with killshot only clocks in at a 18.96 under ideal conditions, 24.92 if it has to move and 36.38 without killshot. Those preds have a ppw against t4 3+ of 95.38

Maneuverable enough to pick proper targets
One of the best PPW I've seen
4++ v. shooting
ability to have cw traits/ynarri shenanigans
Oh, and they went down in costs

The razorback that everyone is afraid of and just got nerfed:
t4 3+
.66 x .66 x .5 x 12 = 2.61 wounds 38 ppw (pre nerf cost)
t7+ 3+
.66 x .33 x .5 x 12 = 1.3 wounds = 76 ppw (pre nerf cost)
w/ guilliman
.878 x .878 x .5 x12 = 4.6 or 21.7 ppw (pre nerf with no included cost for guilliman)
.878 x .54 x .5 x 12 = 2.84 or 35 ppw (pre nerf with no included cost for guilliman)

Yep, guilliman + assbacks needed to go up in points while shining spears are exactly where they need to be


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 08:54:40


Post by: Kdash


 Saber wrote:
Those are from Ghost Miniatures, in Russia.


Found them, thanks! Shame they are currently out of stock though :(

Hrm, though not 100% sure i want to pay 150% of the cost of GW spears for them, plus shipping and then likely a customs charge on top. Shame really!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, so lets try to do some points comparisons. /commence rambling.

Inferno Pistol – 9 points, Plasma Pistol – 7 points, Laser Lance 8 points.

So, currently the Lance is pointed between the 2 pistols, even though it has the lowest str shooting, joint lowest range and mid/joint mid damage output, whilst also having the joint best AP.

Sounds pretty reasonable overall – It gains the AP benefit of the highest priced weapon, along with its range weakness, whilst also gaining the best damage from the plasma profile, but then suffers a significant str reduction.

As for melee. MC power sword – 10 points, Power lance – 4 points. (note- power maul can be used instead of the lance)

Ok, so, the Lance is pointed between these two weapons again. So, the lance has the best ap out of the 3. The lance always strikes at str 6 regardless of who charged, or whether it’s the 2nd round of combat. Sword is always str 4. Lance and Sword have the same damage.

So, based on “averages”, the Laser lance does twice as much damage in the turn it charges as the Power lance, for double the cost, and the sword does 38% less damage than the Laser lance in the first charge. This yells to me that the Sword is overpriced, not the lance being overpriced in this instance. HOWEVER, if the Spears are charged or make it to a 2nd round of combat, they damage output is exactly the same as the power lance, but for double the power lances cost! So, does that mean the Laser lance is now overpriced to?

So, over the course of 1 battle-round, (2 assault phases), the laser lance works out at being 33% better than the Power lance, but for double the cost.

So, as we are talking about killing MEQs here, lets take the plasma pistol and the power lance for a total of 11 points, 3 more than the cost of the laser lance.
For those 3 points, you get, +6” range, -1ap, -1 damage (but this is irrelevant vs MEQs), +1 str (again, irrelevant), 33% less damage in combat over 2 rounds, in the turn that the unit charged (the gap gets smaller each turn locked in combat but…), 19% more damage in over 2 rounds of combat, in the turn the unit GOT charged (due to the pistol being able to fire into combat).

So, not exactly stunning differences, but we then have to take into account platforms.
Spears cost 93 points for a unit of 3 (not inc. star lance). For that you get T4, 7 wounds, 16” move, 3+ and a 4++ vs shooting.
In comparison, Company Vets on bikes with Plasma pistols and Power mauls clock in at 141 for 3. For this you get T5, 6 wounds, 14” move, 3+.

Both units have the same number of attacks in CC. So, looking at platforms, Vets seem to be massively overpriced in comparison, but, it also has to be noted that the Vets are an index costed unit at base. A different comparison is that a standard 3 man bike squad with the weapons on the sergeant comes in at 92 points – but they have also have 3 less attacks when compared to the spears, and less “top end” weaponry. If the full bike squad could take the weapons, they’d come to a total of 114 points, 23 points more than the spears.

The question here though, is, are the basic Spears under-costed, or are the basic bikers over-costed? One thing to note in addition though, is a twin boltgun costs 2 points on a bike, whereas a twin catapult costs 5 on a jetbike. (for the purposes of comparison the debate of assault vs rapid fire is being ignored, due to the us needing to also ignore the saim-hann advance and charge stratagem, as we’d need to agree a “cost” for 1 cp).

The biggest indicator, in my mind will be the DA codex this weekend and the cost of Black Knights. Once we have the updated points cost for that unit, we can then revisit these costs in another attempt to determine issues. Currently BKs are 150 points for 3 – if this is reduced then it’ll make things vest interesting!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 17:23:09


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Kdash wrote:
The question here though, is, are the basic Spears under-costed, or are the basic bikers over-costed?


Given how infrequently we actually see them in any kind of competitive lists (honestly, I don't think we've seen much in the way of competitive CWE lists at a tournament level yet either), I am leaning towards the latter.

A 9 man squad of SS costs 279 points without any upgrades. For that cost I feel like they're doing a pretty good job, solid, not crazy.

For example, I can get a 10 man squad of Berzerkers in a Rhino for around the same price, without the Rhino, those Berzerkers are more than likely dead or heavily damaged (without the Rhino, it becomes ~15 man squad):

Versus the Rhino:
Shuriken Catapults ~3 wounds (2.67 w/ 1.57 deviation)
Laser Lance ~4 wounds (4.00 w/ 2.49 deviation)
Charging Laser Lance vs Rhino ~8 wounds (8.00 w/ 3.53 deviation)

Versus Berzerkers:
Charging Laser Lance vs Berzerkers ~8 wounds (8.00 w/ 2.11 deviation) - I didn't count the multiple wounds from the Laser Lance on this, since it makes no difference against single wound models.

So on average, between shooting and charging the Spears will destroy the Rhino. If they get lucky, they will destroy the Rhino in the shooting phase and get to charge the Berzerkers, possibly wiping them out if they get lucky.

The operative word here being lucky, if they don't destroy the Rhino with shooting and have to charge it to destroy it, they leave the Berzerkers more or less intact, who will in all likelihood (without much luck at all) completely destroy the Shining Spears. Yes, Berzerkers are a premier hand to hand unit, but not an example of premier durability, I put them down as an example primarily due to the fact that they were the first unit I thought of that was roughly the same point total. At the same time I could pull up several examples at a similar point cost that would be destroyed easily by spears or vice versa.

However, in many ways, such a comparison is a false equivalency, Berzerkers are a hyper specialized unit, they should destroy Shining Spears in close combat. Spears are a hybrid unit designed to do a few different things pretty well, as usual it's about applying the right tool to the right situation, you know, Warhammer.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 19:01:31


Post by: bananathug


Your forgetting the exarch with a star lance (which is probably one of the most OP units in the game and probably what pushes the SS from good to OP for only 2 additional points)

Or you run them as ynarri, pop the rhino with shooting and charging and then pop the berzerkers with charging, or pop the rhino and surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 19:28:32


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


bananathug wrote:
Your forgetting the exarch with a star lance (which is probably one of the most OP units in the game and probably what pushes the SS from good to OP for only 2 additional points)


I was going with a base unit, but sure, 281 points, you get one of your ranged attacks bumped to S8 and 3 of your close combat attacks bumped to S8. That doesn't radically change the calculus. Without going into the math for it, you're probably adding another wound in shooting and hand to hand, maybe 2. Again, it will require a bit of luck to actually kill the Rhino with shooting, the unit is still in all likelihood relegated to charging the Rhino.

bananathug wrote:
Or you run them as ynarri, pop the rhino with shooting and charging and then pop the berzerkers with charging, or pop the rhino and surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...


Yes, but that's not really a function of being Shining Spears as much as it's simply good positioning, I've had opponents do that to me with Genestealers. It also assumes you can surround the Rhino, which, again, given good positioning, may not be possible.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 19:38:03


Post by: Grumblewartz


 Galas wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Oh internet hyperbole, you never disappoint. "Shining Spears are the most OP units in the game" vs "All bikes in the game are absolute trash". Beautifull.

Spoiler:


I stopped reading at this point. Hilarious, and true, well played sir!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 21:33:24


Post by: DarknessEternal


bananathug wrote:
surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...

9 Shining Spears don't have enough coverage to trap anything a Rhino. Maybe you're thinking that things move from their vehicle when it dies, but they do not. They teleport to wherever they want to deploy.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 21:33:53


Post by: craftworld_uk


I haven't done all the maths against every opponent but I know that a standard unit of 6 Spears can completely wipe out over 10 marines a turn on average... or nearly 20 guardsmen... ouch. That's before throwing in Raging Wind, Feigned Retreat and psychic powers.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 22:04:38


Post by: bananathug


 DarknessEternal wrote:
bananathug wrote:
surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...

9 Shining Spears don't have enough coverage to trap anything a Rhino. Maybe you're thinking that things move from their vehicle when it dies, but they do not. They teleport to wherever they want to deploy.


pg 183 of the rule book:
If a transport is destroyed any units embarked within it immediately disembark before the transport model is removed...When a unit disembarks, set iu up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models.

I don't have any spear models in front of me but based on the size of a rhino I don't think it would be difficult for a unit that can fly to completely surround one such that the units inside cannot be placed w/in 3" but outside of 1" from all enemy models. If base size is approx 1" across and 2" long and you only need to be @ 1" of a model w/in 1" to be engaged with the model in hand to hand a ring of models 1" from the rhino with bases >1" width will preclude at least some of the transported models from being set-up w/in 1" of the model being destroyed (1 front + back, 2 on one side and 2 rows of 2 on the other and your 9th model somewhere else)


Versus the Rhino:
Shuriken Catapults ~3 wounds (2.67 w/ 1.57 deviation)
Laser Lance ~4 wounds (4.00 w/ 2.49 deviation)
Charging Laser Lance vs Rhino ~8 wounds (8.00 w/ 3.53 deviation)


so 15 wounds v. a rhino chasis for that squad of 9 @ 281 points, adding 2 points for the exarch gives you 1.7 EXTRA wounds (1.4 v. 3.1) seems like a good use of 2 points...

Also that 280 points of spears doing 15 damage to that rhino is 50% more powerful than 2 quad las predators (dedicated space marine anti-vehicle) which do 10 damage to the same rhino but cost 380 points.
Quad las preds: .66 x .66 x .84 = .365 x 4 = 1.45 x 3.5 = 5.12 per 190 point tank

I would argue that right there makes spears OP as they fill several roles(anti-infantry and anti-armor) better and cheaper than specialists fill one role.
Or 280 points to deal 15 wounds >>>>> 380 points to deal 10 or you can just look at the PPW post I posted earlier in the thread...

So either spears are under costed by about 50% (should cost closer to 40-45 points) or the SM codex needs a major buff. I'm down for either but it doesn't seem like the math supports the opinion that they are just "good" unless we are willing to concede that SM just "suck"


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 22:17:49


Post by: Farseer_V2


I'd concede all day long that SM just suck. It isn't a good book, especially in its post 7th, post battle company, hang over days.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/08 22:23:20


Post by: The Mattler


Kdash wrote:
 Saber wrote:
Those are from Ghost Miniatures, in Russia.

Found them, thanks! Shame they are currently out of stock though :(

As far as I know, they're all made to order. Just email him. I've ordered roughly $1200 of miniatures from him in two shipments. The bigger one cost about $25 in shipping, and the smaller one about $15. Both arrived within 3 weeks to Canada, and there were no customs charges. Also, he gave me an extra Farseer Skyrunner and a bunch of shuriken cannons and scatterlasers he made for his jetbike miniatures, all free of charge. YMMV though.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/09 11:45:45


Post by: Sarigar


The Mattler wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Saber wrote:
Those are from Ghost Miniatures, in Russia.

Found them, thanks! Shame they are currently out of stock though :(

As far as I know, they're all made to order. Just email him. I've ordered roughly $1200 of miniatures from him in two shipments. The bigger one cost about $25 in shipping, and the smaller one about $15. Both arrived within 3 weeks to Canada, and there were no customs charges. Also, he gave me an extra Farseer Skyrunner and a bunch of shuriken cannons and scatterlasers he made for his jetbike miniatures, all free of charge. YMMV though.


The biggest complaint I have with Ghost Minis is not with their product. I compared them to what I get from FW and wonder why I paid so much for an inferior product from FW. Ghost Minis quality was top notch and really put FW to shame. I definitely felt the price was justified and will definitely order again.

As far as the OP, now that a person understands the Spears are decent (they have been sub par since their first release), gotta learn to deal with them. I have played them a few times and found they can hit hard for one turn. After that, they get crippled. My way to mitigate that is to take MSU Spears and let my opponents figure it out. In the days of turn 1 Magnus charges, double shooting Slaanesh Obliterators, 4 point demon chaff with inv saves, and other craziness, this is just another unit people need to learn how to deal with.



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 16:19:16


Post by: Xenomancers


bananathug wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
bananathug wrote:
surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...

9 Shining Spears don't have enough coverage to trap anything a Rhino. Maybe you're thinking that things move from their vehicle when it dies, but they do not. They teleport to wherever they want to deploy.


pg 183 of the rule book:
If a transport is destroyed any units embarked within it immediately disembark before the transport model is removed...When a unit disembarks, set iu up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models.

I don't have any spear models in front of me but based on the size of a rhino I don't think it would be difficult for a unit that can fly to completely surround one such that the units inside cannot be placed w/in 3" but outside of 1" from all enemy models. If base size is approx 1" across and 2" long and you only need to be @ 1" of a model w/in 1" to be engaged with the model in hand to hand a ring of models 1" from the rhino with bases >1" width will preclude at least some of the transported models from being set-up w/in 1" of the model being destroyed (1 front + back, 2 on one side and 2 rows of 2 on the other and your 9th model somewhere else)


Versus the Rhino:
Shuriken Catapults ~3 wounds (2.67 w/ 1.57 deviation)
Laser Lance ~4 wounds (4.00 w/ 2.49 deviation)
Charging Laser Lance vs Rhino ~8 wounds (8.00 w/ 3.53 deviation)


so 15 wounds v. a rhino chasis for that squad of 9 @ 281 points, adding 2 points for the exarch gives you 1.7 EXTRA wounds (1.4 v. 3.1) seems like a good use of 2 points...

Also that 280 points of spears doing 15 damage to that rhino is 50% more powerful than 2 quad las predators (dedicated space marine anti-vehicle) which do 10 damage to the same rhino but cost 380 points.
Quad las preds: .66 x .66 x .84 = .365 x 4 = 1.45 x 3.5 = 5.12 per 190 point tank

I would argue that right there makes spears OP as they fill several roles(anti-infantry and anti-armor) better and cheaper than specialists fill one role.
Or 280 points to deal 15 wounds >>>>> 380 points to deal 10 or you can just look at the PPW post I posted earlier in the thread...

So either spears are under costed by about 50% (should cost closer to 40-45 points) or the SM codex needs a major buff. I'm down for either but it doesn't seem like the math supports the opinion that they are just "good" unless we are willing to concede that SM just "suck"

Watch out - you might get accused of making hasty generalizations and false equivalency statements for your indisputable facts that you have presented.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 16:52:46


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


bananathug wrote:

pg 183 of the rule book:
If a transport is destroyed any units embarked within it immediately disembark before the transport model is removed...When a unit disembarks, set iu up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models.

I don't have any spear models in front of me but based on the size of a rhino I don't think it would be difficult for a unit that can fly to completely surround one such that the units inside cannot be placed w/in 3" but outside of 1" from all enemy models. If base size is approx 1" across and 2" long and you only need to be @ 1" of a model w/in 1" to be engaged with the model in hand to hand a ring of models 1" from the rhino with bases >1" width will preclude at least some of the transported models from being set-up w/in 1" of the model being destroyed (1 front + back, 2 on one side and 2 rows of 2 on the other and your 9th model somewhere else)



You could absolutely surround a Rhino and prevent the unit within from disembarking, assuming there is nothing preventing you from surrounding it, such as, but not limited to: buildings and other terrain, other enemy units, the board edge, not enough movement. In other words, there are multiple variables making this potentially more or less likely.

As stated previously, this is not a function of being Shining Spears, I've had non-biker units do this to me, it's a fairly standard tactic.

bananathug wrote:
so 15 wounds v. a rhino chasis for that squad of 9 @ 281 points, adding 2 points for the exarch gives you 1.7 EXTRA wounds (1.4 v. 3.1) seems like a good use of 2 points...


Agreed, it still means you have to get lucky in the shooting phase to actually destroy it in at that point, which is kind of the critical component of the comparison. If you don't destroy it with shooting, then you have to charge it, and if your opponent has positioned it well, then you shouldn't be able to surround it easily and the squad inside should be able to disembark for the most part. Honestly, you only need about 5 Berzerkers to wipe out that whole squad.


bananathug wrote:
Also that 280 points of spears doing 15 damage to that rhino is 50% more powerful than 2 quad las predators (dedicated space marine anti-vehicle) which do 10 damage to the same rhino but cost 380 points.
Quad las preds: .66 x .66 x .84 = .365 x 4 = 1.45 x 3.5 = 5.12 per 190 point tank


They will do ~10 damage to the Rhino from pretty much anywhere on the board from which they can draw line of sight. The Shining Spears do it from a range of 22" (if they advance then they can't charge so you would lose that aspect) and have to put themselves in danger of being counter-charged. This is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways. Furthermore, the Berzerkers are by no means guaranteed to kill two Lascannon Predators with their counter-charge, even if you were lackadaisical enough to put them in charge range in the first place.

bananathug wrote:
I would argue that right there makes spears OP as they fill several roles(anti-infantry and anti-armor) better and cheaper than specialists fill one role.
Or 280 points to deal 15 wounds >>>>> 380 points to deal 10 or you can just look at the PPW post I posted earlier in the thread...


I would argue that that is not a valid comparison you're comparing an AT unit that expects to stay out of hand to hand with a close quarters unit. Also, if we ran the numbers for Shining Spears versus those same Predators, the numbers don't favor the Shining Spears nearly as much.

Shooting vs Predators:
Shuriken Catapults - ~3 wounds (2.67 with a deviation of 1.57)
Laser Lances - ~2 wounds (1.85 with a deviation of 1.74)
Exarch Lance - ~2 wound (0.89 with a deviation of .99)

So you've done 7 wounds to one tank that somehow didn't get to fire at you with it's 48" range, but we'll ignore that, it's certainly possible after all, so you'll end up firing everything and still having to charge to kill 1 Predator.

bananathug wrote:
So either spears are under costed by about 50% (should cost closer to 40-45 points) or the SM codex needs a major buff. I'm down for either but it doesn't seem like the math supports the opinion that they are just "good" unless we are willing to concede that SM just "suck"


I think you've just compared models that are not equivalent, that don't even fulfill the same role on the battlefield. It's easy to find bad matchups in the game, but using them as a basis for blanket declarations of inequality is a disingenuous presentation of the facts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Watch out - you might get accused of making hasty generalizations and false equivalency statements for your indisputable facts that you have presented.


Nah, he went through the trouble to show his work, happy to have the debate.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 17:28:18


Post by: Xenomancers


Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 17:41:23


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.


Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...


Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 17:48:19


Post by: Vaktathi


Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:04:59


Post by: darkarchonlord


Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:12:32


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:12:47


Post by: Scallywag


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.


Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...


Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.


It is true that Windriders are overcosted. But that doesn't make Shining Spears balanced. They are way undercosted and extremly efficient against all kind of targets. Combined with the Craftworld Attributes (Saim-Hann or Alaitoc), Stratagems and psychic powers from the codex, they are one of the best units in the game. You can easily charge your enemy with two large units in the first turn. Several top tournament players in Germany use them and I would also build an army around Shining Spears if they had affordable plastic models.

You don't need to have a complex philosophical discussion about every aspect of the game to rate a unit. You can simply use math and common sense.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:17:50


Post by: Xenomancers


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.


Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...


Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.

Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:23:09


Post by: Vaktathi


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.
Hrm, having TL'd guns, +1T, double the movement range, Turboboost move bonus, Hammer of Wrath I10 autohits, Relentless (particularly coupled with the other advantages here), and Jink on SM bikes over their infantry counterparts for something like 6ppm was pretty ridiculous, Eldar just abused it even more by slapping Scatterlasers on everything


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:27:49


Post by: Scallywag


darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.


You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:30:09


Post by: Xenomancers


Scallywag wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.


Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...


Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.


It is true that Windriders are overcosted. But that doesn't make Shining Spears balanced. They are way undercosted and extremly efficient against all kind of targets. Combined with the Craftworld Attributes (Saim-Hann or Alaitoc), Stratagems and psychic powers from the codex, they are one of the best units in the game. You can easily charge your enemy with two large units in the first turn. Several top tournament players in Germany use them and I would also build an army around Shining Spears if they had affordable plastic models.

You don't need to have a complex philosophical discussion about every aspect of the game to rate a unit. You can simply use math and common sense.

They aren't actually overcosted ether - they just outclassed by stratagem use with web-way guardians and also by singing spears LOL. Why take a windrider when you can take this OP as gak singing spear for 8 more points.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:35:52


Post by: darkarchonlord


Scallywag wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.


You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.


First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 18:40:15


Post by: Xenomancers


darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

MSU Spears isn't even the biggest problem. It's 1 big unit of spears getting every buff in the codex and just steamrolling entire armies is a much bigger problem.

You can webway strike them in - hit them with guide/fortune/quicken/protect. At this point you've basically lost the game if they got those spells off. Really though - all they need is quicken (save a command point for that every time)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
darkarchonlord wrote:
Scallywag wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.


You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.


First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.

Love this argument..."spears are OP because people don't take melle units" uhh...people don't take melle units because melle units are bad - so just throw that argument out right away. Not to mention - spears totally own melee units with the melle weapons they have but don't actually pay for.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 19:26:30


Post by: Scallywag


darkarchonlord wrote:
Scallywag wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.


You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.


First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.


After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 20:07:50


Post by: clodax66


In the index SS were 43 point and no one used them. Maybe at 31 point they undercosted. Increasing their points back to 40+ will makes sure no one uses them again since everything else in the codex went down in cost. I could see them priced around 36 points.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 20:13:04


Post by: bananathug


First, thanks for engaging in a reasonable way. I hope you can help me sharpen my views on this which is influenced by the considerable amount of salt in my eyes.

All of these are opinions and I'm open to hearing counters on all of them. I am by no means a pro-player and a lot of my issues can be a result of my poor play that I'm just not experienced enough to see but...

I stand by my "they should cost 40-45 points" for the following reasons:


You could absolutely surround a Rhino and prevent the unit within from disembarking, assuming there is nothing preventing you from surrounding it, such as, but not limited to: buildings and other terrain, other enemy units, the board edge, not enough movement. In other words, there are multiple variables making this potentially more or less likely.

As stated previously, this is not a function of being Shining Spears, I've had non-biker units do this to me, it's a fairly standard tactic.


Come on man. Any of those scenarios result in the same thing (dead zerkers). Also many of them are mitigated by the spears "fly" ability as they can just move over the rhino/obstacles to surround it while troops without fly have to go around and are more likely to run into movement limitations.


Agreed, it still means you have to get lucky in the shooting phase to actually destroy it in at that point, which is kind of the critical component of the comparison. If you don't destroy it with shooting, then you have to charge it, and if your opponent has positioned it well, then you shouldn't be able to surround it easily and the squad inside should be able to disembark for the most part. Honestly, you only need about 5 Berzerkers to wipe out that whole squad.


True, if you don't destroy it in shooting then you are screwed (5 zerkers are a problem). But this can be mitigated by having access to some of the most powerful shooting models in the game (dark reapers) but that has little bearing on the current conversation.


They will do ~10 damage to the Rhino from pretty much anywhere on the board from which they can draw line of sight. The Shining Spears do it from a range of 22" (if they advance then they can't charge so you would lose that aspect) and have to put themselves in danger of being counter-charged. This is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways. Furthermore, the Berzerkers are by no means guaranteed to kill two Lascannon Predators with their counter-charge, even if you were lackadaisical enough to put them in charge range in the first place.


Bolded the main part. Those preds are limited by LOS while due to the maneuverability of the spears that is less of a concern (not null but significantly reduced). Strategems allow you to advance and change, SfD allows it if you can kill something w/in 7" in shooting, quicken is a thing (3 ways to mitigate this range issue)

Also that 16" move gets you within 75%ish charge range (8"+re-roll) of all but 12" of the board on most deployments. (16 + 8 +12 = 36" on a board that's 48" across) flying over intervening terrain and models. So with 3 units advance+charge strat, quicken spell and either use ynarri or hope your opponent doesn't line up all of his units on his own board edge.


I would argue that that is not a valid comparison you're comparing an AT unit that expects to stay out of hand to hand with a close quarters unit. Also, if we ran the numbers for Shining Spears versus those same Predators, the numbers don't favor the Shining Spears nearly as much.

snip

So you've done 7 wounds to one tank that somehow didn't get to fire at you with it's 48" range, but we'll ignore that, it's certainly possible after all, so you'll end up firing everything and still having to charge to kill 1 Predator.


My point was that they do anti-tank better than dedicated anti-tank and still can do anti-infantry at about 500% efficiency as those anti-tank units. The ability to perform good against a variety of targets is a strength that I feel is strongly underestimated. It allows you to apply your 280 pts of firepower against a target that you will get a reasonable return against vs taking those preds and seeing nothing but reapers across the table (a unit they perform at around 130 PPW vs their approx 40 ppw against t7, 3+ multi wounds)

I feel this further increases the value of the unit as you get full value against hordes, armor/monsters making this a truly TAC unit which makes it nearly twice as valuable per point as a specialist unit.

Those tanks shooting at those spears perform even worse. .5 x .84 x .5 = .21 wounding shots with a .16 chance of that shot not killing a spear or not going to kill a spear in one round of shooting and will kill 1.5 in two rounds of shooting or 2 rounds of shooting = 1 dead spear (not bad for a "fragile" unit and reinforcing my point about the value of TAC units)

Check out my post here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/745775.page to see what kind of gak spears + reapers do. An army running 47 reapers just won the second heat of "the" GT: https://imgur.com/a/HLDw5 https://imgur.com/a/4j1Vc

No SM in the top 10 although nearly 25% (18 of 74) of the field was SM armies (only 5 in the top 30) This is before CA (in which SM best options were nerfed but Eldar were untouched, except for those FW spiders which were OP now maybe slightly over costed)


I think you've just compared models that are not equivalent, that don't even fulfill the same role on the battlefield. It's easy to find bad matchups in the game, but using them as a basis for blanket declarations of inequality is a disingenuous presentation of the facts.


Agree. I compared models that are not equivalent because one model is vastly superior.

I'd argue there are only a couple roles on the battlefield because of the over-simplification of 8th ed rules:
1. survive alpha strikes
2. kill t7+
3. kill MEQ/GEQ
4. deny deep-strike/screen
5. board control
6. tar-pit

Spears do 1,2,3 and 5 so well you don't have to worry about 4 and 6 (no need to screen or tar-pit if your enemy is dead). In order to achieve the efficiency which spears deal with hordes AND armor I'd have to sink points into two different units (neither of which achieve the same level of PPW) and hope my enemy brings targets for both where you just throw spears and reapers on the board and know you can deal with anything from leman russes to hordes.

Alpha strike survival augmented by mobility (out of LOS) strategems (webway) and that 4++ leaving them only really vulnerable to turn 1 melee assaults (which threatens 90% of units and seems to be their only weakness)

I'll agree that they are vulnerable to 1st turn alpha charges which can be mitigated with cheap ranger screens (advanced deployment to keep on your deployment edge) or more expensive guardians

All this adds up to a unit that punches AND survives much better than its 31/33 point per model, especially when compared to the dumpster fire that is the SM codex.

40-45 points doesn't seem unreasonable for a unit that literally has 1 weakness (maybe 2 if you find yourself in melee combat with a unit you didn't kill in your turn but I'm not sure how much that rare situation should count) and is offensively strong against pretty much anything in the game.

[tldr]
Spears kill marines at 20-23 PPW which is about twice as effective as marines kill anything and survive against anything other than 1st turn alpha charges almost as well as anything marines have meaning a 30-50% increase in price is a modest increase. They also perform better in game and under ITC scoring scenarios.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 20:14:23


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


They *might* get a first turn charge (if they don't use webway portal), if they advance, they can't charge. If they're Saim-Hann they have a better chance at a first turn charge because they can re-roll their charge distance and you can use the stratagem to allow them to charge after advancing. This also assumes your opponent is crowding the front line, because if he's not, the only way you're getting that first turn charge is with a stratagem.

Xeno is convinced that a 9 man squad is rolling entire armies, I think the math pretty clearly fails to bear out that hyperbole, but this is the standard argument from him. As usual, hasty generalization, with a little argument from authority (his) thrown in.

As someone pointed out, unless they get the charge, Shining Spears will get rolled by even mediocre melee units.

I mean, I can keep pointing out units that cost less that will destroy them in a single round of firing, would that help? Tank Commander in a Punisher, 215 points, kills 5/9 on average, with one round of firing. There is some radical overselling of Shining Spears durability going on here. I'm sorry, but this belief that a 4++ is the second coming of Magnus is just absurd.

Sorry if I don't get it folks, the math seems pretty obvious, when people were concerned about 50 man conscript squads, the math bore that out, the math just doesn't support the argument that these units are wildly overcosted or OP, or whatever. Are they good? Yes. For 300 points on a single squad, they better be straight gangsta, because that's about 1/6 of your entire army. If you're showing up at the table with 54 Shining Spears thinking you're just going to roll everything on the table, I think you'll be disappointed.

Who knows though, maybe this is the new meta, we'll see it dominating all tournaments going forward. Maybe I'll plan to see this at LVO, but probably not.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 20:48:24


Post by: darkarchonlord



After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.

Honestly at that point is a deployment issue. Shining spears do not have unlimited range and do not have enough firepower to clear out everything.

Shining spears aren't even prominent in any of the craftworld lists since, like TwinPole pointed out, a 4++ against shooting really isn't the end-all be-all of protection. Especially for a T4 model with 2 wounds each...

If you want to bitch about an eldar unit, bitch about dark reapers lol. Those are undercosted af and GW made em cheaper in the codex.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:20:20


Post by: bananathug


edit because I'm an idiot and forgot about grinding advance
So the fact that a unit can be reduced by 55% from one of the most powerful shooting units in the game means that no mater what they cost they can't be OP? OMG tank commanders are great. 40 shots @ bs 3+ s6 and they can give orders w/ t8. Yep razor backs and guilliman are way too powerful

Where's your work on this number btw I get something much different if I give the aldari trait to the spears and assume the tank has to move to get LOS or 24" (you know, the majority of times this will happen)

Heavy bolters x3 (.33 x .66 x .5 x 9 = .98 wounds)
Stubber x1 (.33 x .5 x .33 = .05 wounds)
gatling cannon (.33 x .66 x .33 x 20 = 1.4 x2 = 2.8 wounds) total of 3..8 wounds or one dead spear. after realizing grinding advance then we probably have 2 dead

And then the spears clap back (strat for advance + charge to get w/in range)

7 spears + exarch left (lose wounded spear to over-watch on charge)
shooting spears: .66 x .33 x 7 6 x 2 = 3.04 (2.6) wounds exarch .66 x .75 x 1 x 2 = .99 wounds so 4 3.5

shruken: (.66 x .16 x .397 x 28 = 1.1) + (.66 x .294 x .33 x 4 = rounding error) or another wound so 5 wounds in shooting

charge: .66 x .33 x 2 x 12 = 5 wounds + .66 x .75 x 2 x 3 = 2.97 or another 7 wounds

so 12 (11.5) wounds or one dead tank commander vs 7/9 spears left

Spears go first tank dies.

4++ provides a reasonable amount of protection when combined with -1 to hit (-2 if you want to save the unit, -3 if you really want to save the unit).

I fail to see how this refutes any of the issues brought up in my previous post but if I'm missing the point please let me know. (I'm known to be pedantic in discussions so if there is a larger picture I'm missing please point it out.)

edit: updated numbers to reflect grinding advance, only killed another spear but my god 40 s6 shots for 190 points is bananas


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:27:35


Post by: Scallywag


darkarchonlord wrote:

After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.

Honestly at that point is a deployment issue. Shining spears do not have unlimited range and do not have enough firepower to clear out everything.

Shining spears aren't even prominent in any of the craftworld lists since, like TwinPole pointed out, a 4++ against shooting really isn't the end-all be-all of protection. Especially for a T4 model with 2 wounds each...

If you want to bitch about an eldar unit, bitch about dark reapers lol. Those are undercosted af and GW made em cheaper in the codex.



One unit can move 16", advance 6" and charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a a threat radius of 24" to 34" (Warriors of the Raging Winds).

Another unit can move 16" twice and then charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a threat radius of 34" to 44" (Quicken).

You can also deep strike up to two units 9,1" away from the enemy. With the Saim-Hann Attribute they have a 50% chance to get into combat (Webway Strike).

Oh, did I mention that they can even fly over other units?

Hardly a deployment issue if you ask me.

Dark Reapers are good, but Shining Spears deal way more damage against (almost) all targets, are so much more resilient and have an insane mobility. A 4++ is fantastic for a T4 2W model that only costs 31 points can be buffed with up to -3 to hit and a 5+++ on top of that. People in your meta "failing" to use them, doesn't make Shining Spears less overpowered.

That unit is so broken, it is not even funny.

You can even deep strike a unit and cast Quicken on it for an almost 100% guaranteed charge turn 1 (using Concordance of Power, Seer Council and/or a re-roll if necessary).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:31:31


Post by: WindstormSCR


 Xenomancers wrote:


Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.


you missed the part where very few people are taking guardians because the cost of them is too expensive vs their own toughness and range. guardians are over costed by about 2ppm, which with your example makes windriders overcost by ~4ppm

the other problem you have singularly failed to account for is also a problem in space marine armies: multi-wound models in this edition of multi-damage weapons are inherently WORSE than a larger number of single-wound models with an equivalent cost and number of wounds. Why? because each time a multi-damage weapon hits the W1 unit, it doesn't get a chance to 'roll over' and take out more points for each hit, and reduces unit effectiveness more slowly. This is a big reason why guard are doing fairly well right now, they have lots of cheap bodies that protect the bit of the unit that actually does the work, the special and heavy weapon.


I will concede that a large chunk of the marine codex is underperforming currently without using character buffs, so they're also a terrible unit roster to compare against and need buffs themselves.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:42:22


Post by: Xenomancers


 clodax66 wrote:
In the index SS were 43 point and no one used them. Maybe at 31 point they undercosted. Increasing their points back to 40+ will makes sure no one uses them again since everything else in the codex went down in cost. I could see them priced around 36 points.

The index was terrible...

Didn't have quicken - didn't have web-way stratagem - didn't have charge after assault stratgem - didn't have siamhan or aliotoc traits - didn't have protect warlock power ether. My Siamhan buddy still used them and won most of his games with them. He thinks it's hilarious they dropped in points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WindstormSCR wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.


you missed the part where very few people are taking guardians because the cost of them is too expensive vs their own toughness and range. guardians are over costed by about 2ppm, which with your example makes windriders overcost by ~4ppm

the other problem you have singularly failed to account for is also a problem in space marine armies: multi-wound models in this edition of multi-damage weapons are inherently WORSE than a larger number of single-wound models with an equivalent cost and number of wounds. Why? because each time a multi-damage weapon hits the W1 unit, it doesn't get a chance to 'roll over' and take out more points for each hit, and reduces unit effectiveness more slowly. This is a big reason why guard are doing fairly well right now, they have lots of cheap bodies that protect the bit of the unit that actually does the work, the special and heavy weapon.


I will concede that a large chunk of the marine codex is underperforming currently without using character buffs, so they're also a terrible unit roster to compare against and need buffs themselves.

Gardians are a fine unit. bladestorm and the ability to advance and shoot with no penalty is amazing when combined with doom and hitting on 2+ with ulthwe stratagem. Honestly - I've played my ulthwe 3 times and never once was I close to losing a game and I play with 40 guardians. Since then I've been playing nids and they are stong but I think eldar are much stronger. Guardians are properly pointed. Things like AM infantry units are just under-pointed.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:51:06


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


bananathug wrote:
So the fact that a unit can be reduced by 55% from one of the most powerful shooting units in the game means that no mater what they cost they can't be OP?


My point is that there are any number of decent shooting units that for the same points would cripple or destroy Shining Spears without ever being threatened by their hand to hand.

bananathug wrote:
Where's your work on this number btw I get something much different if I give the aldari trait to the spears and assume the tank has to move to get LOS or 24" (you know, the majority of times this will happen)


Fair enough:
Punisher - no re-rolls - double-tapping = ~6 wounds (5.93 wounds with a 2.25 deviation)
Heavy Bolters - no re-rolls = ~2 wounds (2.00 with a 1.25 deviation)
Heavy Stubber - no re-rolls = ~1 wound if you're lucky (0.33 wounds with a .54 deviation)
So on average 9 wounds, roughly half the squad dead.

Cadian -
Punisher - double-tapping = ~7 wounds (6.91 with a 2.39 deviation)
Heavy Bolters = ~2 wounds (2.33 wounds with a 1.31 deviation)
Heavy Stubber = ~1 wound if you're lucky (0.39 with a .58 deviation)

bananathug wrote:
4++ provides a reasonable amount of protection when combined with -1 to hit (-2 if you want to save the unit, -3 if you really want to save the unit).


Potentially, but now you're moving the goalposts. How much support structure should I count on being in place when I make my comparisons? Can I assume psyker support? Regimental doctrine? Legion traits? Buff auras? I mean we can go down this rabbit hole forever. I agree that the units have to be viewed contextually within their own army environment, but if that's the case now we're down to comparing army lists and that's another matter entirely.

Honestly, I got into this argument because nobody was actually making a sound argument, everybody was running around screaming that the sky was falling, which is clearly not the case. Sadly, I don't even really care that much at the end of the day, this unit doesn't bother me for a single list that I've built, even the silly ones where I just want to play around with a niche unit. It's going to charge and destroy 1 thing and then it will be erased, assuming it can't be shot on the first turn and there aren't more interesting targets. I would be more inclined to agree if this was coming from the standpoint of how do we get bikes that aren't eldar on the table, because currently, nobody's playing that crap. Instead, the logic that gets thrown around here is to price it out of existence instead.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 21:57:06


Post by: Xenomancers


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
They *might* get a first turn charge (if they don't use webway portal), if they advance, they can't charge. If they're Saim-Hann they have a better chance at a first turn charge because they can re-roll their charge distance and you can use the stratagem to allow them to charge after advancing. This also assumes your opponent is crowding the front line, because if he's not, the only way you're getting that first turn charge is with a stratagem.

Xeno is convinced that a 9 man squad is rolling entire armies, I think the math pretty clearly fails to bear out that hyperbole, but this is the standard argument from him. As usual, hasty generalization, with a little argument from authority (his) thrown in.

As someone pointed out, unless they get the charge, Shining Spears will get rolled by even mediocre melee units.

I mean, I can keep pointing out units that cost less that will destroy them in a single round of firing, would that help? Tank Commander in a Punisher, 215 points, kills 5/9 on average, with one round of firing. There is some radical overselling of Shining Spears durability going on here. I'm sorry, but this belief that a 4++ is the second coming of Magnus is just absurd.

Sorry if I don't get it folks, the math seems pretty obvious, when people were concerned about 50 man conscript squads, the math bore that out, the math just doesn't support the argument that these units are wildly overcosted or OP, or whatever. Are they good? Yes. For 300 points on a single squad, they better be straight gangsta, because that's about 1/6 of your entire army. If you're showing up at the table with 54 Shining Spears thinking you're just going to roll everything on the table, I think you'll be disappointed.

Who knows though, maybe this is the new meta, we'll see it dominating all tournaments going forward. Maybe I'll plan to see this at LVO, but probably not.


It's rolled my Nids 3 times in a row - they average about 400 points of damage the turn they come in. Plus they tie up additional units and I have to waste 2-3 units to make sure they die (and even then the exarch usually lives after all that) - and then the joys of being shot at for another turn from an eldar army without getting into the core of their army.

Admittedly - he always gets quicken off which is under a 75% chance with a reroll - but he wouldn't even need quicken if he started on the table - which he doesn't do because I would focus them down turn 1 if he didn't (we play chapter approved with a +1 to the roll to go first). I play a stong nid army too - lots of geenstealers - hive tyrants - and carnifex. There is nothing I can do about this unit.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:03:23


Post by: Elbows


So, what if - for some reason - the cost went up...and your opponent still took the same units, and just skipped a Warlock or diminished a guardian squad, what's your plan then? As far as we can see you're the only one being rolled every game by Shining Spears.

More importantly - have you told your opponent you don't enjoy it? Asked him to consider modifying his list? Or are you just fuming and complaining online to everyone else but your actual opponent?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:08:15


Post by: The Mattler


Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?" The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem. Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we?

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQ T3, 5+, W1
MEQ T4, 3+, W1
TEQ T4, 3+, 5++, W2
BEQ T5, 3+, W2
LVEQ T6, 3+, W6
MVEQ T7, 3+, W12
HVEQ T8, 3+, W12

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

[Incidentally, can anyone tell me how to make a table on DakkaDakka without this awful formatting? The coding that works on 40kOnline and TheWarmaster40k doesn't work here.]

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone. I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn. If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:09:35


Post by: Xenomancers


 Elbows wrote:
So, what if - for some reason - the cost went up...and your opponent still took the same units, and just skipped a Warlock or diminished a guardian squad, what's your plan then? As far as we can see you're the only one being rolled every game by Shining Spears.

More importantly - have you told your opponent you don't enjoy it? Asked him to consider modifying his list? Or are you just fuming and complaining online to everyone else but your actual opponent?

I have no idea what you are talking about in your first statement - spears went down in points dramatically...They were already one of the best options in the index.
Top 3 units in the index were in this order
Hemlock (went up slightly because you have to pay for spirit stones)
Shiningspears (got way cheaper)
Dark Reapers (got cheaper)

Your second statement - it's not about enjoyment - we are competitive and we seek to obliterate each other - after 3 thrashings like that though I am not bringing nids against him for some time now. Not until something changes - I'll just play my eldar against him - forwarned gives me a chance against them.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:11:59


Post by: Elbows


I'm saying, what do you suggest is the solution? Even if they went back up to 40+ points a model...if he still takes them, what were you planning on doing? I've played with Shining Spears in numerous games and never had anyone who couldn't find a relatively expeditous way to kill a handful of toughness 4 models. They're not robust at all...I suspect maybe nerfing Shining Spears needs to take a back seat to better army management/tactics.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:14:33


Post by: Farseer_V2


I don't understand how people (especially Nid players) don't just screen against them. Sure they're fast but a carpet of 80 bodies can literally eliminate potential venues of attack until your turn.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:18:37


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.
Hrm, having TL'd guns, +1T, double the movement range, Turboboost move bonus, Hammer of Wrath I10 autohits, Relentless (particularly coupled with the other advantages here), and Jink on SM bikes over their infantry counterparts for something like 6ppm was pretty ridiculous, Eldar just abused it even more by slapping Scatterlasers on everything

You're saying that Bikers are OP to the Tactical Marine. This is a model and unit entry that has been garbage for YEARS. Ask yourself if this comparison makes sense. People were still taking Scouts after all.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:24:18


Post by: Spoletta


May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:45:10


Post by: Fafnir


The Mattler wrote:
Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?" The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem. Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we?

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQ T3, 5+, W1
MEQ T4, 3+, W1
TEQ T4, 3+, 5++, W2
BEQ T5, 3+, W2
LVEQ T6, 3+, W6
MVEQ T7, 3+, W12
HVEQ T8, 3+, W12

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

[Incidentally, can anyone tell me how to make a table on DakkaDakka without this awful formatting? The coding that works on 40kOnline and TheWarmaster40k doesn't work here.]

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone. I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn. If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...


Scorpions and Banshees aren't really good for comparing against Spears, because they're both really bad units to begin with.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 22:53:47


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


The Mattler wrote:
With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone.


They are more than twice the price for the same number of models.

The Mattler wrote:
I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads.


Sweet emperor's golden jewels I hope so for that cost.

The Mattler wrote:
Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.


You probably should since if they're firing at anything they're in charge range.

The Mattler wrote:
If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...


This is a squad that must perform in multiple phases to be effective for it's points cost. Almost anything that expensive either has to be hyper-specialized to earn it's point in a single phase (Dark Reapers, Predators, LRBTs, Berzerkers, etc.) or it has to be positioned and used in such a way that it's earning it's points within multiple phases (Terminators, Shining Spears, Bikers, etc.), at which point it is taking all the associated risks attached to being used in such a way.

As has already been discussed, even mediocre CC units will destroy Spears, any sort of even passable melee units should destroy them (Xeno, how you aren't destroying these things with Genestealers is fundamentally blowing my mind, seriously? A single Patriarch would probably kill the entire squad.). Anyhow, we'll see, if they're as amazing as everyone claims I expect I'll see truckloads of them at LVO, so who knows.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 23:28:21


Post by: bananathug


I doubt you'll see truck loads of only spears but it seems pretty obvious to me that you'll see them + reapers at a significant percentage of the top tables (if only because reapers are almost as criminally undercosted )

I am curious as to what the meta will shift to at the LVO with enough timing having passed for people to digest the new hotness (CWE and Nids).

Also are you guys running new CA at that tourney? Let me know how many OP Gorillaman lists you see as my bet is he's been priced out of the competitive meta but let the rest of this forum tell it and he needs moar nerfs.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/11 23:32:48


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


bananathug wrote:
I doubt you'll see truck loads of only spears but it seems pretty obvious to me that you'll see them + reapers at a significant percentage of the top tables (if only because reapers are almost as criminally undercosted )

I am curious as to what the meta will shift to at the LVO with enough timing having passed for people to digest the new hotness (CWE and Nids).

Also are you guys running new CA at that tourney? Let me know how many OP Gorillaman lists you see as my bet is he's been priced out of the competitive meta but let the rest of this forum tell it and he needs moar nerfs.


We've been running ITC rules amongst my friends since August really. Effectively, yes, we've been running CA-style the whole time. So there is no automatic going first. They've been running that way in all of their tournaments as far as I know.

They'll be using all the new point values for sure. I just got a look at the tournament pack and the missions are similar to SCO, so not sure they're really using a lot of the mission rules or the open war deck or anything like that though.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 00:44:35


Post by: The Mattler


 Fafnir wrote:

Scorpions and Banshees aren't really good for comparing against Spears, because they're both really bad units to begin with.

What if I add Wraithblades (charging!) with Ghostswords? It's tricky to get them into combat, but they do hit hard...or do they?

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
WBGS (melee)*****15.75***23.63***29.53***23.63***31.50***47.25***47.25
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

This is what the Aeldari get for efficient dedicated assault units in the Codex, so that's why a comparison between them makes sense (i.e., opportunity cost). It doesn't mean that I think Banshees, Scorpions, Wraithblades, or even Shining Spears are somehow ideal melee units.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

They are more than twice the price for the same number of models.

You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Mattler wrote:
I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads.

Sweet emperor's golden jewels I hope so for that cost.

Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Mattler wrote:
Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.

You probably should since if they're firing at anything they're in charge range.

I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

This is a squad that must perform in multiple phases to be effective for it's points cost. Almost anything that expensive either has to be hyper-specialized to earn it's point in a single phase (Dark Reapers, Predators, LRBTs, Berzerkers, etc.) or it has to be positioned and used in such a way that it's earning it's points within multiple phases (Terminators, Shining Spears, Bikers, etc.), at which point it is taking all the associated risks attached to being used in such a way.

Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement). Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two. There are even ways to circumvent their relatively (compared to Reapers and CHs) low reach, especially Warriors of the Raging Winds.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

As has already been discussed, even mediocre CC units will destroy Spears, any sort of even passable melee units should destroy them (Xeno, how you aren't destroying these things with Genestealers is fundamentally blowing my mind, seriously? A single Patriarch would probably kill the entire squad.). Anyhow, we'll see, if they're as amazing as everyone claims I expect I'll see truckloads of them at LVO, so who knows.

Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience. Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike. On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 01:45:36


Post by: Xenomancers


Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 05:03:05


Post by: WindstormSCR


 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.


so in your arguments you are assuming not just spears, but approximately 270 points of support at the minimum successfully activated? That's indescribably . Most 'decent' units from any codex will do quite well if you saturate them with that much support.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 05:21:33


Post by: Arachnofiend


I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 06:06:02


Post by: Spoletta


No that's fine, the majority of damage there came from losing the stealers, wich are as glassy as a glasscannon could be. When you face such alpha strikes, don't you think that you should deep strike your stealers? Starting them on the board will result in a disaster no matter the opposing list. It could have been 3 aggressors from Ravenguard and the result would be the same with a 111 point unit.
If instead of stealers in front you had hormagaunts it would have been much different and the Tfex is another really good target for lances. The problem there is your list, your brought the perfect targets for him. In the average nid list they would still do a lot with that much support, but more around 300 points of damage.

That said, without a battle report i have no way to get a clear idea of what happened, so this is all theory.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 06:40:52


Post by: WindstormSCR


 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.


it still shouldn't be accounted for when making direct unit to unit comparisons, as the presence of them are not guaranteed


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 07:19:33


Post by: Spoletta


WindstormSCR wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.


it still shouldn't be accounted for when making direct unit to unit comparisons, as the presence of them are not guaranteed


You should account for them, it's part of the faction rules.
When you look at Marines you always consider a lot of rerolls.
When you look at AM you always consider commands.
When you look at Nids you always consider synapse.
So, when you look at Eldar you must account for the fact that they have 18 powers at their disposal.

Comparing models with each other without context is fruitles, look at the DA warlord trait for example: Fearless in a 12" bubble. It's strictly superior to the same traits of other marines, and yet it sucks, why? Because DA are already fearless. Give that trait to AM and see if there are any differences. Faction context is key.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 09:22:45


Post by: AaronWilson


CWE Just won the Warhammer 40k Heat 2, anyone know what the list was?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 10:11:40


Post by: Fafnir


I think it was pretty much Dark Reaper spam.

Which makes sense, since Dark Reapers are ridiculous, and in ways that Spears couldn't ever hope to know.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 10:37:42


Post by: shortymcnostrill


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I don't understand how people (especially Nid players) don't just screen against them. Sure they're fast but a carpet of 80 bodies can literally eliminate potential venues of attack until your turn.


This deserves a response I think, I was wondering about this too. Spears can fly, but nine of them require a decent landing zone. Don't give them one near anything important. With msu Spears you probably won't block all of them, but you could try to split them up by only providing enough space for one or two units to land. Screens are a necessity this edition in my games, although I'm still getting used to that myself.

As an aside, don't nids have excellent anti-psyker mechanisms in both Shadow in the Warp and in taking small Kronos(?) detachments? This doesn't cover the board on turn one, but it should help.

@TwinPoleTheory: I really appreciate how you consistently use math/facts to base your arguments on, even when repeatedly confronted with arguments that do not. You have definitely given me some more insight in the unit, thanks for that!


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 11:35:30


Post by: Spoletta


What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 13:20:53


Post by: craftworld_uk


Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 13:31:06


Post by: darkarchonlord


One counterpoint to all of these points is that if the spears fail their charge they are toast, so your threat ranges are all way too big since you simply can't risk taking a charge if you have less than a 75% chance to make it. Considering these "scary shining spear" squads are 312pts each, that's a TON of points at risk,

Scallywag wrote:

One unit can move 16", advance 6" and charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a a threat radius of 24" to 34" (Warriors of the Raging Winds).


More like a threat range of ~30", this is easily prevented by simply having some screening units in near base contact with the units you want to protect, they can fly over models but still need to maintain coherency and must have a spot on the table. Don't forget this costs 2CP to do as well.

Scallywag wrote:

Another unit can move 16" twice and then charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a threat radius of 34" to 44" (Quicken).


Quicken has a 50% to go off and perils insta-kills the warlock so that's anything but a given. Also that warlock casting quicken has a whole 2 wounds at T3, he's not too hard to take care of.

Scallywag wrote:

You can also deep strike up to two units 9,1" away from the enemy. With the Saim-Hann Attribute they have a 50% chance to get into combat (Webway Strike).


That's shining spear suicide. Also easily EASILY countered by proper deployment preventing them from being 9" away from non-screening units. It's basically deployment 101, come on.

Scallywag wrote:

Dark Reapers are good, but Shining Spears deal way more damage against (almost) all targets, are so much more resilient and have an insane mobility. A 4++ is fantastic for a T4 2W model that only costs 31 points can be buffed with up to -3 to hit and a 5+++ on top of that. People in your meta "failing" to use them, doesn't make Shining Spears less overpowered.

That unit is so broken, it is not even funny.

You can even deep strike a unit and cast Quicken on it for an almost 100% guaranteed charge turn 1 (using Concordance of Power, Seer Council and/or a re-roll if necessary).


First off is shining spears are so broken compared to dark reapers how come basically no-one is taking them in competitive tournaments? How come everyone is fielding dark reapers?

Simple: The spears get to kill one big target of their choice and then they are gone, there is no reliable way to protect them after their first charge. They are worthless in the fight phase if they're charged and if they fall back they can't charge making them overcosted windriders.

Dark reapers on the other hand have an insane range, the exarch doesn't even need LoS, and they do damn near the same damage as the shining spears can do at 48" range (36" on the exarch).

Quicken deep strike combo is very expensive costing either 3CP or 1CP and a relic. There's no reliable way to make it work with a seer council since, how are you getting that farseer up there? To get the re-roll you'd have to use 3CP to deep strike them both and even after all that, it's a 50% change, 80% with the re-roll relic but you've spent a massive 3CP and a relic to do this for a unit that's going to die next turn (including the warlock). That's simply not worth it, Eldar have better ways to slaughter a target of their choice.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 14:00:53


Post by: xmbk


This thread seems to prove that some people really believe online forums somehow affect GW's FAQs. SS are good, every codex is lacking in internal balance to one degree or another. But calling them OP is ridiculous, no matter how many times you repeat the same claim or back it up with artificial math simulations.

Reapers OP, probably. Hemlocks, maybe. But SS are just a backbone unit. Most of the number crunching in this thread is painfully artificial. There are probably 40-50 units in the game that could use some power reduction in order to provide better balance, SS are just one. Hopefully GW will stay on top of it, but not by monitoring online B threads.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 14:01:36


Post by: Spoletta


craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 14:34:59


Post by: Xenomancers


WindstormSCR wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.


so in your arguments you are assuming not just spears, but approximately 270 points of support at the minimum successfully activated? That's indescribably . Most 'decent' units from any codex will do quite well if you saturate them with that much support.

They are required HQ choices - the whole army benifits from doom and two of the powers are just to keep them alive for the next turn. Literally the only offensive spell that was solo on the spears is guide - and they don't really even need that - another spear would be more effective - you just can't take more than 9.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 14:49:49


Post by: Spoletta


Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 15:09:03


Post by: Xenomancers


Spoletta wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.




Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 15:10:06


Post by: xmbk


Spoletta wrote:
Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.


This is a good point, though the same can be true for other buffers. Bobby G, for instance, wouldn't be as big a deal if he didn't have half his army castled around him.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 15:11:42


Post by: Xenomancers


Spoletta wrote:
Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.

Their PPD already proves they are OP. It's already been demonstrated they get their laser lance for pretty much free. That is OP. It would be kind of like if terminators got their power fist for free. That would drop them down to like 27 points. Then they would be really OP too.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 15:45:46


Post by: Kdash


Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 15:58:15


Post by: pm713


What are we calling a squad here? 5 Knights vs 5 Spears? 5 knights vs 10 spears? 5 Knights vs 3 Spears?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:09:27


Post by: Spoletta


Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.


Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.

Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.




I don't know what you are talking about, Genestealers to traverse the table need only a single cp and no support. Welcome to Kraken.
Also, Jormungard is the second best trait in the codex, the fact that you define it as crap tells me a lot.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:15:42


Post by: Xenomancers


Kdash wrote:
Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.

Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.




Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:33:37


Post by: Xenomancers


Spoletta wrote:
Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.


Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.

Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.




I don't know what you are talking about, Genestealers to traverse the table need only a single cp and no support. Welcome to Kraken.
Also, Jormungard is the second best trait in the codex, the fact that you define it as crap tells me a lot.

Kraken is the best - not arguing that - jorm is just a strategem- it is literally the worst trait in the mix - it just has 1 decent stratagem that you can duplicate with trygons (which are excellent units). geens max out at a 8+6+6+ charge range It's an average of 18 though - with no reroll charge. Considering a 24 inch neural zone on most deployments all the opponent needs to do is deploy 6 inches off the deployment line to protect his lines. Vs a tyrnaid army - this is exactly what any compotent player will do. Spears even without quicken extend that threat range to 10 inches (and have a reroll charge) off the deployment line which is also counter productive because starting that far away from an eldar army is basically surrendering the game turn 1. Plus the unit can always quicken - so any advantage of being deployed so far away is gone.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:43:21


Post by: Fafnir


Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because Eldar have really terrible horde control. Scorpions are garbage, Spectres were nerfed to garbage. That leaves Spears, basically.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:44:06


Post by: Unit1126PLL


man being able to force the enemy to compress 6" deeper in their deployment zone is actually pretty good in my book. Like, how many points does it cost to shrink the enemy's DZ by so much? That's literally half their DZ in the Dawn of War deployment, and they have to be more than 6" deep in their zone for things like the table-quarters deployment.

That's phenomenally good, and some units can't even fit in such a small space (e.g. anything with a base longer than 6" playing the Dawn of War deployment).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:55:10


Post by: Spoletta


Half the deployments have a 18" neutral zone now, and a lot depends on the mission being played. Starting so far away from the center of the board is feasible only in 2 missions out of 6.

Let's not devolve into that though, we would mix in too many elements.

In the end my point is the same, the spears are an excellent unit against gunlines (OP? maybe) and a decent unit against other lists, which can become a "good" unit if you pour the Eldar mojo in it.
Even if they are overbuffed though, if they fail to inflict enough damage there are too many ways to get rid of them.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 16:55:29


Post by: The Mattler


 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.

That situation is surprisingly complicated. I hope I got all of the following correct, but I'm sure one of you will tell me if I didn't.

Advancing prohibits shooting and charging.
Assault weapons remove the shooting prohibition of advancing, but impose a -1 penalty to hit.
Battle Focus removes the shooting prohibition (and the assault weapon penalty) for advancing, but only for non-heavy weapons.
Falling Back prohibits advancing, shooting, and charging.
Flying removes the shooting prohibition of Falling Back.
Feigned Retreat removes the shooting and charging prohibitions of Falling Back.
Warriors of the Raging Winds removes the charging prohibition of advancing, but also requires advancing.

Therefore...

If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back, it can shoot (Fly), but cannot advance or charge.
If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back with Feigned Retreat, it cannot advance, but it can shoot and charge.
If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back, regardless of whether it not it used Feigned Retreat, it cannot use Warriors of the Raging Winds because Falling Back prohibits advancing.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 17:49:45


Post by: Xenomancers


let me correct my mistake their best guns shoot 6 inches but I was including a 6" advance which they can't do if they fallback. This makes their fallback/charge/full shooting threat range 22 inches not 28. Holy crap. Such a huge over-site.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Fafnir wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because Eldar have really terrible horde control. Scorpions are garbage, Spectres were nerfed to garbage. That leaves Spears, basically.

And gardians / Warwalkers with scatter lasers/ bikes with scatter lasers (siamhan). Spears are just better than them because they are OP.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 17:57:20


Post by: darkarchonlord


 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.


But it's not though, you're wounding on 5-6 and yeah the AP is great but you gotta get wounds through to do that damage. Against hordes, you're only dealing 1 dmg so half the shots are already wasted, against big targets you're getting all that damage off but you're wounding on a 6, hardly worth it. They're really good against T<6 2 wound models that they charge first, so what? They're just as weak against similar units of charged first and every unit's going to be better than SOMETHING.

 Xenomancers wrote:

And gardians / Warwalkers with scatter lasers/ bikes with scatter lasers (siamhan). Spears are just better than them because they are OP.


No, they're better because eldar horde control absolutely blows. With the nerf to shadow spectres we've basically got nothing but the spectres (now barely worth it) and the spears. Guardians at 12" aren't going to get anything off before they die, warwalkers and bikes with scatter lasers take absolutely forever to clear hordes and are VERY expensive. Can basically only take scat lasers on massively overcosted saim-hann windriders too and it's still garbage.

For some reason GW forgot that although Eldar don't bring hordes, they still need something to deal with them. Hell, shining spears shouldn't even be good against hordes, they only "are" because they can do some damage to hordes and then do other gak.

The easy way to fix this is nerf the cost of windriders down and give our other shuriken wielders better range and/or a points reduction since point-for-point eldar "anti-horde" get slaughtered.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:21:49


Post by: Xenomancers


There is nothing wrong with the PPD of a guardian - they are very effective against infantry per point. Between webwaystrike and wave serpants - Gardians have the two best delivery methods for infantry. Wave serpants aren't bad anti infantry themselves considering they will likely live until the last turn without some serious focusing.

They just arent absurd like prenerf spectres and current SS are. Keep calm and do math.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:23:14


Post by: Kdash


pm713 wrote:
What are we calling a squad here? 5 Knights vs 5 Spears? 5 knights vs 10 spears? 5 Knights vs 3 Spears?


Sorry forgot to mention it...

I was looking at base squads - so 3 of each, and deliberately ignoring stratagems and psychic powers.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:26:18


Post by: Xenomancers


Kdash wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What are we calling a squad here? 5 Knights vs 5 Spears? 5 knights vs 10 spears? 5 Knights vs 3 Spears?


Sorry forgot to mention it...

I was looking at base squads - so 3 of each, and deliberately ignoring stratagems and psychic powers.

That is what I assumed. Absolutely shocking to me that the SS are far superior.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:34:18


Post by: Kdash


It all depends on what you call "anti horde". Something that can kill a 10 man squad of GEQ, or something that can be used to effectively kill 30 GEQ?

If you're only looking at killing half a dozen 10 man squads, pretty much any unit "can" wipe out the squad, simply because of the rate of fire of a lot of the weapons.

The main problem Eldar have, isn't that they "can't" kill hordes, it is just that in order to make their points back, a single unit would probably have to spend 3 to 5 turns doing nothing but kill them just to make their points back.

It is why Wave Serpent spam can be so good, because they are durable, relatively cheap on points and have FLY. Spears are the same, especially when you consider a unit of 9 has 36 str 4 shots at 12" range.

Likewise, 20 Guardians out of the webway can clear units as well, but, you then have to rely on the webway.

I personally think, this is a little where Dire Avengers "can" play a part, with their 18" weapons. Saim-Hann scat bikes can also do this if needed, but it is a points sink.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:38:49


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


The Mattler wrote:
You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.


No, I understand, but you can't look at PPW in a vacuum. Yes, for the points, they have a very good PPW. If that is the sole metric on which we are judging all units then I suppose there is nothing to discuss, we go through the rulebook, throw out any units that fall outside of a narrowly agreed upon PPW range and we're all set, perfectly balanced game. Right?

The Mattler wrote:
Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.


As I mentioned, if this is the sole metric by which we judge all units, great, we should have a balanced game in a matter of days.

The Mattler wrote:
I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.


However, they only have to charge once for them to be stuck for the duration of your opponent's round. As mentioned, if he has even mediocre hand to hand, they're dead. So they charged and killed one thing probably, as expected, then died.

The Mattler wrote:
Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement).


Yet, this is an important distinction, to bring that shooting to bear, they have to be close, close enough that your opponent will be able to bring whatever firepower he has available to bear on them. Your Dark Reapers are not putting themselves in range of *everything* your opponent's army has to offer. Shining Spears are quite literally putting themselves in range of everything, including assault units.

The Mattler wrote:
Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two.


To be fair, unless your opponent is utterly incompetent your Shining Spears *must* earn their points quickly, because they are not going to be around for multiple rounds. I know you guys are big on how unbelievably durable this unit is, but the math simply doesn't support that conclusion.

The Mattler wrote:
Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience.


Exactly. PPW is a great measure of efficiency, but fails to take into account contextual factors associated with the army they are supported by. Does the points calculus change because CWE screening troops are more costly? Is it different because high toughness line troops are not as easy to find?

The Mattler wrote:
Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike.


Mitigating opponent response is a pretty good metric to work with also. One the Shining Spears can only do with a 4++ vs shooting, that's it, they have nothing else protecting them as they sit within 12" of your opponent's entire army. I mean unless you have them running around behind buildings, taking out satellite squads, but they'll be a long time earning their points back that way.

The Mattler wrote:
On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.


Do I really need to offer commentary on your opponent that allows you to either freely charge or shoot at their Patriarch? Basically, if you get to charge the Patriarch that probably indicates that GSC went first, which brings all kinds of other assumptions into play. But on this point, now you're diving into and entirely different mechanics issue, which is discussed in numerous other threads that I'm not going to get into here (going first is really good).

Edited for punctuation failure.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:47:52


Post by: Xenomancers


Kdash wrote:
It all depends on what you call "anti horde". Something that can kill a 10 man squad of GEQ, or something that can be used to effectively kill 30 GEQ?

If you're only looking at killing half a dozen 10 man squads, pretty much any unit "can" wipe out the squad, simply because of the rate of fire of a lot of the weapons.

The main problem Eldar have, isn't that they "can't" kill hordes, it is just that in order to make their points back, a single unit would probably have to spend 3 to 5 turns doing nothing but kill them just to make their points back.

It is why Wave Serpent spam can be so good, because they are durable, relatively cheap on points and have FLY. Spears are the same, especially when you consider a unit of 9 has 36 str 4 shots at 12" range.

Likewise, 20 Guardians out of the webway can clear units as well, but, you then have to rely on the webway.

I personally think, this is a little where Dire Avengers "can" play a part, with their 18" weapons. Saim-Hann scat bikes can also do this if needed, but it is a points sink.

Can also tar-pit hordes with wave serpent. Takes away their ability to shoot or assault you next turn at the expense of taking attacks from 10+ models that can't really hurt you. I've done this lots of times. They are ether forced to stay locked with you or are forced to allow you to charge them or another unit for free.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 18:55:28


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
Spoiler:
Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.


Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.



The problem is, Spears have no penalty to advancing either, due to battle focus and always have the 4++ regardless of advancing, so have additional protection vs alpha strikes (beyond deep striking via the webway or cloudstrike).
I agree that when both units have the 4++ the RBKs are more durable, and also more durable in combat because of the higher toughness, but, a unit of 8 would cost 118 points more than 8 Spears, and for me, that feels like too much.
Oh, i agree, when using the stratagem they will melt tanks etc from range without any issues and stay "relatively" safe, whereas the Spears have to be super close. However, Spears have the ability to not only target vehicles with their 2 dmg -4ap attacks, they also have the ability to hunt down units that have 1 or 2 wound models without much of a penalty. You also have to factor in that the 3 dmg comes at a risk of killing yourself (16 shots will net you 2.6 1's) whereas Spears don't get hot. Without over-charging and the stratagem, both units then have the same dmg output. (Yes there are options for re-rolling 1's, but we'd then have to take it into account for both sides, and that certainly won't help the RBKs xD).

Personally, i feel like RBKs are paying too much for their extra 12" range especially with their -1 to hit penalty if they advance (unless using the stratagem).

If the corvus hammers were +2 str -2ap for the same cost, i think we'd see a much closer comparison between the 2 units and a much smaller gap, as their combat efficiency would increase, which would then be offset by their current points cost. (to me, the hammer should be a mix between the power maul and the thunderhammer, but it somehow seems to have turned out as a bad mix of a power maul and axe...)


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:15:06


Post by: Kdash


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The Mattler wrote:
You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.


No, I understand, but you can't look at PPW in a vacuum. Yes, for the points, they have a very good PPW. If that is the sole metric on which we are judging all units then I suppose there is nothing to discuss, we go through the rulebook, throw out any units that fall outside of a narrowly agreed upon PPW range and we're all set, perfectly balanced game. Right?

The Mattler wrote:
Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.


As I mentioned, if this is the sole metric by which we judge all units, great, we should have a balanced game in a matter of days.

The Mattler wrote:
I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.


However, they only have to charge once for them to be stuck for the duration of your opponent's round. As mentioned, if he has even mediocre hand to hand, they're dead. So they charged and killed one thing probably, as expected, then died.

The Mattler wrote:
Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement).


Yet, this is an important distinction, to bring that shooting to bear, they have to be close, close enough that your opponent will be able to bring whatever firepower he has available to bear on them. Your Dark Reapers are not putting themselves in range of *everything* your opponent's army has to offer. Shining Spears are quite literally putting themselves in range of everything, including assault units.

The Mattler wrote:
Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two.


To be fair, unless your opponent is utterly incompetent your Shining Spears *must* earn their points quickly, because they are not going to be around for multiple rounds. I know you guys are big on how unbelievably durable this unit is, but the math simply doesn't support that conclusion.

The Mattler wrote:
Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience.


Exactly. PPW is a great measure of efficiency, but fails to take into account contextual factors associated with the army they are supported by. Does the points calculus change because CWE screening troops are more costly? Is it different because high toughness line troops are not as easy to find?

The Mattler wrote:
Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike.


Mitigating opponent response is a pretty good metric to work with also. One the Shining Spears can only do with a 4++ vs shooting, that's it, they have nothing else protecting them as they sit within 12" of your opponent's entire army. I mean unless you have them running around behind buildings, taking out satellite squads, but they'll be a long time earning their points back that way.

The Mattler wrote:
On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.


Do I really need to offer commentary on your opponent that allows you to either freely charge or shoot at their Patriarch? Basically, if you get to charge the Patriarch that probably indicates that GSC went first, which brings all kinds of other assumptions into play. But on this point, now you're diving into and entirely different mechanics issue, which is discussed in numerous other threads that I'm not going to get into here (going first is really good).

Edited for punctuation failure.


I agree with you in regards to PPW, efficiency and mathhammer (though it might not have come across that way when looking at my comparison posts in isolation.

Mathhammer is a great tool, however, it should always be used to guide decisions, rather than control decisions and choices. 2 or 3 units in a codex might be, hands down, the best 3 units in the game (example), but, if those 3 units don't work together well, you'll win the first couple of games through sheer power, but then really start to struggle as people begin to realise what each unit does. Once that happens, things can quickly fall apart.

As for Spears durability in combat, in isolation, sure they aren't that tough, but,, now moving into the wider view, as soon as i give them 2 or 3 psychic powers it changes dramatically. A -1 to hit, 2+/3++ vs shooting with a 5+ FNP suddenly becomes painful on 2 wound models.

I also, kind disagree with all the "if this unit charges it kills x unit" kind of arguments. In 8th, it's simply become a game of "who attacks first in combat, usually wins" - instead of "this unit specialises in combat so should be able to take a punch and throw one back". Genestealers murder Berserkers, but Berserkers also murder Genestealers, so, we can't really just use that as a basis for "x is better than y". However, in this instance, Spears also have a distinct advantage (especially Saim-hann ones) over a lot of other units. This is simply because they can move 22", shoot and still charge, whilst being able to move over other units. And, if really needed, they can turn that 22" move into a 44" move. (now, there are arguments about whether Genestealers can kinda do this as well via a mix of several stratagems and powers, but i believe that to not be the case).

I tried to isolate Spears vs SM bikes, simply to attempt to draw an conclusion to how much different they are and costed, before taking into account all the extras (simply because we can't put a points cost on 1 CP or a psychic power for example). Maybe eventually we'll be able to, but i think we need all the codices first.

I personally agree that Spears are just better than Scorpions and Banshees, but, to just try to compare them 1v1 is wrong. The problem those 2 units currently have is different to their counter parts strengths. However, they also have strengths that the Spears do not have. (10 banshees and Jain-Zar charging out of a wave serpent = dead unit for example). Scorpions also gain a free "deep strike". Sure, they might not be that strong in combat, but, in a way, they can become an expensive, sit in cover and deny deep-strike/hold objective unit. With a 2+ save in cover they will still die, but, they are a distraction. It is the same with Hawks. Jump up and down around the table onto objectives beings a 65 point annoyance that noone really wants to spend firepower on when there are "bigger" threats on the table.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:29:51


Post by: Xenomancers


hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:32:16


Post by: Kdash


 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:46:15


Post by: Xenomancers


Kdash wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.
Best I can think is to have them roll near a warlord with the -1 AP on a 6 to wound warlord trait and shoot them at your doomed target (they will basically always be able to reach it)



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:49:16


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Kdash wrote:
Mathhammer is a great tool, however, it should always be used to guide decisions, rather than control decisions and choices. 2 or 3 units in a codex might be, hands down, the best 3 units in the game (example), but, if those 3 units don't work together well, you'll win the first couple of games through sheer power, but then really start to struggle as people begin to realise what each unit does. Once that happens, things can quickly fall apart.


Exactly, PPW is great, but if it's the sole metric I should be able to take a Land Raider stat line and put it in a single Space Marine model and have it make no difference, which is obviously not the case.

Kdash wrote:
As for Spears durability in combat, in isolation, sure they aren't that tough, but,, now moving into the wider view, as soon as i give them 2 or 3 psychic powers it changes dramatically. A -1 to hit, 2+/3++ vs shooting with a 5+ FNP suddenly becomes painful on 2 wound models.


Yes, but this could be said for a lot of models. Oblterators aren't that bad on their own, but I give them the Mark of Tzeentch, make them Alpha Legion, put them next to the Changeling, and give them a Daemon Prince who's casting Prescience on them and it's a completely different ballgame.


Kdash wrote:
I also, kind disagree with all the "if this unit charges it kills x unit" kind of arguments.


This was part of the comparison I was attempting to make with the Rhino earlier (the effectiveness of said comparison is what it is), but as you mention, 8th edition heavily favors the initiating unit/army.

ITC tournament rules have done some interesting stuff in terms of mitigating the advantage at an army level, but not really on a unit to unit basis.

Kdash wrote:
However, in this instance, Spears also have a distinct advantage (especially Saim-hann ones) over a lot of other units. This is simply because they can move 22", shoot and still charge, whilst being able to move over other units. And, if really needed, they can turn that 22" move into a 44" move. (now, there are arguments about whether Genestealers can kinda do this as well via a mix of several stratagems and powers, but i believe that to not be the case).


While this is an amazing amount of movement it also implies that this unit is on the table on turn 1, not coming in from deep strike, so in that scenario, they could lose first turn, get shot to hell and be a complete waste of points.

I also feel that movement is not quite the attribute it was in previous editions. There are so many flavors of deep strike now that a unit's ability to move doesn't necessarily protect it from assault or short range firepower anymore. The GSC Genestealers don't need to do this because Cult Ambush is absolutely amazing, and with the new stratagems from CA, it's gotten even better. By the same token, it's not entirely fair for me to use what is arguably the best ambushing unit in the game for this comparison. If the Patriarch and his Genestealer crew want a unit dead, they'll probably get to kill it when they come on the table, that's just the nature of the beast.

Kdash wrote:
I tried to isolate Spears vs SM bikes, simply to attempt to draw an conclusion to how much different they are and costed, before taking into account all the extras (simply because we can't put a points cost on 1 CP or a psychic power for example). Maybe eventually we'll be able to, but i think we need all the codices first.


This is, in my opinion, the only really valid comparison. Obviously in that comparison, SM Bikers lose, but I tend to think they lose regardless. I have a very low opinion of SM/CSM Bikes, as evidenced by the fact that in 25 years of collecting Chaos models I've never been tempted to buy Bikers. Maybe I've been missing something for the last quarter century.

Kdash wrote:
I personally agree that Spears are just better than Scorpions and Banshees, but, to just try to compare them 1v1 is wrong.


It's definitely apples and oranges.

Kdash wrote:
Jump up and down around the table onto objectives beings a 65 point annoyance that noone really wants to spend firepower on when there are "bigger" threats on the table.


This is a point that I think doesn't get made enough here in the discussion of what's trash and what's good. What is the value of a unit like this? It can hold an objective, you don't want to ignore it, but at the same time, the level of firepower needed to kill it is prohibitive enough that your opponent is reluctant to do anything about it. The Scorpions deep striking and sitting on an objective with a 2+ armor save isn't going to get wiped out by basic troop killing weapons, but do you really want to point Lascannons at them? Do you have the time and resources to do so?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:55:22


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


This is a good example of Xenomancer complaining (again) about Eldar without taking context. He/she says they "can deep strike for free" because you paid the points for the unit that can do that - like literally every other model with a deep strike ability. This isn't a point about Eldar at all, it's just stating a fact. The sky is blue, therefore Eldar are OP.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 19:56:35


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I mean, to be fair, it's a tautology to say "eldar are op because eldar are op."

So his argument is valid.

I think the premises are unsound, but I don't think Xenomancers is terribly concerned with actual truth in the form of facts.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 20:01:18


Post by: Elbows


Kdash wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.


Hawks are...decent as a kind of throw-away infantry. As with everything Eldar, they hit hard (ish) and then collapse when someone throws a sideways glance at them. I think they're probably best used as anti-horde stuff. They have four-shot lasguns. I have a squad of nine including an Exarch and yes it can delete a five man squad of Space Marines normally, but that's not a tremendous feat. Oddly I think they do well in cover where their armour save becomes 3+ and they can just dump lasfire all around them. A little pricey for what you get, but it's also one of the few standard Deep Striking units the Eldar have (outside of Stratagems they have maybe 4-5?).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 20:06:36


Post by: Xenomancers


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


This is a good example of Xenomancer complaining (again) about Eldar without taking context. He/she says they "can deep strike for free" because you paid the points for the unit that can do that - like literally every other model with a deep strike ability. This isn't a point about Eldar at all, it's just stating a fact. The sky is blue, therefore Eldar are OP.

Basically I was really just stating that they don't have to spend a command point to do it like all the other units we are talking about. Honestly outisde of dark reapers and singing spears I have no issue with units in the codex being underpriced - in fact - dire avenger and warlocks conclave (significantly) could go down in price and I would be pretty happy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.

Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.


I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.


Hawks are...decent as a kind of throw-away infantry. As with everything Eldar, they hit hard (ish) and then collapse when someone throws a sideways glance at them. I think they're probably best used as anti-horde stuff. They have four-shot lasguns. I have a squad of nine including an Exarch and yes it can delete a five man squad of Space Marines normally, but that's not a tremendous feat. Oddly I think they do well in cover where their armour save becomes 3+ and they can just dump lasfire all around them. A little pricey for what you get, but it's also one of the few standard Deep Striking units the Eldar have (outside of Stratagems they have maybe 4-5?).
Can you honestly look at a tactical marine and say that without laughing? They cost the same as a tactical marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, to be fair, it's a tautology to say "eldar are op because eldar are op."

So his argument is valid.

I think the premises are unsound, but I don't think Xenomancers is terribly concerned with actual truth in the form of facts.

I am absolutely concerned about the truth in the form of facts.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 21:08:53


Post by: darkarchonlord


I'm not going to go through all the effort of quoting but swooping hawks are basically the worst anti GEQ in the game (when comparing anti GEQ units) essentially never making their points back against the units their designed to kill. It's not that their weapons are bad, its that they're (as with almost all footdar) so expoensive per model and so fething squishy that they can't compete point for point. Do you really think 10 swooping hawks can kill 33 guardsmen even if they hit first? Not a chance. Don't forget they're fast attack so we can't even use them to fill out battalions for more CP.

Whoever said spears don't have a penalty for advancing is dead wrong. Given their movespeed you basically never want to have to advance your spears because if you do you have to spend CP just to allow them to charge. You're using CP to give them 6" of move which is pretty garbage.

Guardian PPW in a vacuum are great, until you remember they're 12" and now they're in rapidfire range of everyone else so your mathhammer goes out the window and every guardian costs as much as 2 guardsmen for the same toughness and wounds.

What Xeno seems to be forgetting is the PPW isn't damn near close to enough to determine how points effective a unit is, you need to compare the PPW it takes to KILL them too and thats why you seem to think eldar is AP. Yes, most things have pretty good PPW but Eldar is typically firing against 1.5 - 2x the same amount of wounds/toughness equivalent.

I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 21:13:26


Post by: Farseer_V2


darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 21:34:33


Post by: darkarchonlord


And unless you're taking your wounds very poorly, those gaunts are going to be out of charge range so you're going to kill about 20 of them before the spears are slaughtered.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 0007/10/12 23:58:57


Post by: Farseer_V2


I mean the assumption is you're going to be as close as possible when you open up and with an average charge of 10 (9+1") given the re-roll its pretty tough to entirely pull a unit out of charge range. You're going to have had to deploy them with some width and some depth and even at maximum spacing you're going to have a hard time clearing out a 10" bubble to prevent any charge. It may end up denying some of the spears attacks but its hard to prevent them from charging.

I don't think spears are undercosted to be clear but you've literally compared them to one of the things they actually excel at blasting right through. Units like Gaunts or even more so guard screens are fodder for spears, the key isn't that they can't kill those its that a smart opponent will only feed you those until he can bring a counter punch in. They're vulnerable to cheap large screens because if they don't get to charge a premium target they really weren't worth more than another unit of Dark Reapers.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/12 23:31:17


Post by: xmbk


 Xenomancers wrote:

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.


Wow, this is impressively clueless as to how Nids work. Guess it's true, the less you know, the more you think you know.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 06:53:55


Post by: Spoletta


 Farseer_V2 wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 08:53:15


Post by: Kdash


darkarchonlord wrote:

Whoever said spears don't have a penalty for advancing is dead wrong. Given their movespeed you basically never want to have to advance your spears because if you do you have to spend CP just to allow them to charge. You're using CP to give them 6" of move which is pretty garbage.


The CP also allows you to re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the next fight phase, in addition to giving you the 12” move – 12” due to the updated ruling on moving a 2nd time if you advanced in the movement phase.

For me, this is pretty big for 2 reasons.
1- It allows Spears to find the gaps in the opponent’s deployment and target whatever unit it wants (either starting on the table or deep-striking) and using Quicken.
2- After using Quicken you probably won’t be within range of an Autarch. As such, this reduces your reliance on the Autarch and allows you more options with the rest of your army.

If I know I can keep Spears alive 1st turn if I don’t win the roll off (LoS, screening or -1 to hit stratagem) I’d be tempted to start them on the table and take the 44” move hoping I get quicken off when I attempt to cast it on a 6+ re-rolling. That said, you’ll likely find more flexibility deep-striking them and just using the 22” move.


Requiring the CP is, in a way a penalty though, I agree. It simply means that you have to take into account the fact that you’ll be required to spend x amount of CP 1st turn and need to factor it into your game plan.

For example, I have a list running 10 CP, but, realistically, my CP cost wants to be around 12-13 (1st world problems, right? xD), but, this has to be considered. My setup currently requires me to spend between 6 and 8 CP in the first turn (not including a command re-roll) in order to ensure I get the full affects I want. It does provide a different sort of game management challenge that I think people do forget about.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 09:05:19


Post by: Lord Perversor


Spoletta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.


And termagants comes in squads of 30 so unless both squads are really close, so you can shoot at one and charge the other, there should be still a decent number of gants to counter strike and earn some points back.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 09:23:15


Post by: Kdash


 Lord Perversor wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.


And termagants comes in squads of 30 so unless both squads are really close, so you can shoot at one and charge the other, there should be still a decent number of gants to counter strike and earn some points back.


I’d have zero problems charging a max unit of 9 Spears into 60 guards if there were no other better targets.

Sure, with Guide and Doom you’d only kill 26 of the first 30 via shooting, and then, charging both groups, I’d expect to kill the rest of the first group and about 9 of the 2nd group. As for the gants fighting back… I’d expect to lose 0 models to the retaliation.

Not only would this be a reasonable trade, the Tyranid consolidation would likely mean you are surrounding so no other Tyranid unit can get into combat as well, meaning the only threat to your Spears would be if they decide to fall back.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 11:05:57


Post by: Spoletta


Kdash wrote:
 Lord Perversor wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.


And termagants comes in squads of 30 so unless both squads are really close, so you can shoot at one and charge the other, there should be still a decent number of gants to counter strike and earn some points back.


I’d have zero problems charging a max unit of 9 Spears into 60 guards if there were no other better targets.

Sure, with Guide and Doom you’d only kill 26 of the first 30 via shooting, and then, charging both groups, I’d expect to kill the rest of the first group and about 9 of the 2nd group. As for the gants fighting back… I’d expect to lose 0 models to the retaliation.

Not only would this be a reasonable trade, the Tyranid consolidation would likely mean you are surrounding so no other Tyranid unit can get into combat as well, meaning the only threat to your Spears would be if they decide to fall back.


No one is contesting that in the right situation this is a tactically sound move, i'm just stating that math wise they are not horde cleaners.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 11:52:11


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Lord Perversor wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:


I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.


Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.


And termagants comes in squads of 30 so unless both squads are really close, so you can shoot at one and charge the other, there should be still a decent number of gants to counter strike and earn some points back.


I’d have zero problems charging a max unit of 9 Spears into 60 guards if there were no other better targets.

Sure, with Guide and Doom you’d only kill 26 of the first 30 via shooting, and then, charging both groups, I’d expect to kill the rest of the first group and about 9 of the 2nd group. As for the gants fighting back… I’d expect to lose 0 models to the retaliation.

Not only would this be a reasonable trade, the Tyranid consolidation would likely mean you are surrounding so no other Tyranid unit can get into combat as well, meaning the only threat to your Spears would be if they decide to fall back.


No one is contesting that in the right situation this is a tactically sound move, i'm just stating that math wise they are not horde cleaners.


I agree, but also disagree to an extent. They aren’t stand alone “efficient” horde killers based on role and regaining points, but, as shown, they can deal with large geq units with relative ease over the course of 1 turn. This is the problem people always fall into – mathhammer based on a 1v1 situation in total isolation.

Now, 281 points (without powers) to kill 120 points worth of GEQ isn’t the best – would need to kill 3 units to be “effective”.

However, this is where people start to not take the rest of the game into account.

Usually, “effectiveness” is based off 1 turn only on here. However, you have to consider more than 1 turn and the rest of the army.

For example, if I have 2 units of 9 Spears and 1 unit of 10 Dark Reapers. Which unit are you going to kill first, because chances are you’ll only have the firepower to fully destroy one if I play correctly. Now what if I have the first turn, so therefore I’ve already taken out 2 horde units, destroyed god knows what else with the Reapers and consolidated into combat with the 2 spear units.

You now get your chance to kill 1 unit and maybe get lucky and half destroy another. If 1 Spear unit survives, 1 dies and half the Reapers are killed, the next turn the full Spear unit kills another 30 man blob.

At this point, I’d be questioning what units you have left on the table now that, in 2 turns, I’ve removed 90 horde models + 2+ things with the Reapers and whatever else the other 1163 points of my army has been killing.

Is it points “efficient”? No, nowhere near (unless the Reapers manage to kill 450 points in 2 turns). However, is it game winning efficient? Potentially yes.

People always get hung up on “this doesn’t do x very well” or “this is op cos it can do x” but never look at the bigger picture. For example, I plan on using a 2 Vyper squad with Starcannons in my army. Currently in isolation they are unit that people completely ignore and avoid. Sure, they aren’t spectacular at killing things, but, they can kill things over several turns whilst doing other things. To many people take the “all or nothing” approach and then wonder why games fall apart if one side or the other doesn’t get a massive alpha strike.



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 11:59:30


Post by: Spoletta


The rationale i use is easy. To be average a unit must destroy it's own cost in points AND require 3 times it's cost in ranged fire to go down (this is based on the assumption that the average life of a shooting model is 3 turns).



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 12:24:41


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
The rationale i use is easy. To be average a unit must destroy it's own cost in points AND require 3 times it's cost in ranged fire to go down (this is based on the assumption that the average life of a shooting model is 3 turns).



Shooting or shooting and combat?

So, based on 3 turns of GEQ horde killing, the single Spear unit will kill (at a minimum due to the 4ppm cost) 360 points, or 90 models. This is 79 points more than their base cost.

In reverse, it would take 5 turns for the same points of GEQ horde (conscripts) to kill the 1 unit of Spears, even when they have FRFSRF. Standard GEQ will take 3 turns.

The problem will come when we start mixing and matching what shoots at what and what benefits we give to the attacker and defender. If we continue with Guard and say, Spears target horde units but get shot by a double tapping Leman Russ Punisher, we’d expect the Russ to also take 5 turns to kill the Spear unit with no buffs (which costs 150 points per turn).

A Basilisk will take forever to solo a squad (won’t even happen solo in a 6 turn game). Mortars, likewise, have no hope.

A plasma command squad could kill the unit in 5 turns as well, but, that is with overcharging and a strong chance of killing yourself before you manage it.

There are probably lots of options that CAN easily kill the unit in a turn or over 3 turns, but, it does go to show that when you consider 3 turns, certain units are more efficient than people sometimes presume.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 12:56:00


Post by: Spoletta


That's a model i use game by game to evaluate the different units and how they performed. It's hard to do that on an absolute level, at least the "How much it killed part". The second part is a bit easier, since you can guesstimate how much shooting it will take to go down and which kind of units will shoot at it. I like this system because it allows you to easily include the cost of support units in the math.
What i still have problems to define is the average life on a melee model, so i can't define how many points of melee specialists you have to absorb on average.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 13:06:51


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
That's a model i use game by game to evaluate the different units and how they performed. It's hard to do that on an absolute level, at least the "How much it killed part". The second part is a bit easier, since you can guesstimate how much shooting it will take to go down and which kind of units will shoot at it. I like this system because it allows you to easily include the cost of support units in the math.
What i still have problems to define is the average life on a melee model, so i can't define how many points of melee specialists you have to absorb on average.


I’d personally expect there to be 2 different life expectancies for melee units, depending on whether they managed to charge, or were charged.

In all likelihood, a melee unit that gets charged often only has a slim chance of surviving into the next turn (when charged by another specialist unit), however, if they are charged with a tar pitting unit, I’d expect them to survive all game.

As you’re looking at specialist units, I’d probably tend to lean more towards the 1 turn side of things, when they get charged.

However, when they do the charging, I’d expect their life expectancy to double to around 2 turns. This is simply because they will likely destroy the enemy unit in that 1 turn and can then consolidate forward into another unit. This then reduces the incoming fire by at least 1 unit, and gives them the potential of having a 2nd round of combat later in that turn.

I also feel like , with melee units, you have to factor in deep-strike or not. If they aren’t deep-striking, I’d go for a measure of 2 turns of survival, but likely only 1 turn of combat (as they likely won’t be able to do anything at all expect move in the first turn), so, they are either open to 2 rounds of shooting, or will get charged due to them being “out of range” first turn.

Deep-striking units I’d give the standard 2 rounds, with the caveat that they make their first 9” charge.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 14:57:39


Post by: Spoletta


Kdash wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
That's a model i use game by game to evaluate the different units and how they performed. It's hard to do that on an absolute level, at least the "How much it killed part". The second part is a bit easier, since you can guesstimate how much shooting it will take to go down and which kind of units will shoot at it. I like this system because it allows you to easily include the cost of support units in the math.
What i still have problems to define is the average life on a melee model, so i can't define how many points of melee specialists you have to absorb on average.


I’d personally expect there to be 2 different life expectancies for melee units, depending on whether they managed to charge, or were charged.

In all likelihood, a melee unit that gets charged often only has a slim chance of surviving into the next turn (when charged by another specialist unit), however, if they are charged with a tar pitting unit, I’d expect them to survive all game.

As you’re looking at specialist units, I’d probably tend to lean more towards the 1 turn side of things, when they get charged.

However, when they do the charging, I’d expect their life expectancy to double to around 2 turns. This is simply because they will likely destroy the enemy unit in that 1 turn and can then consolidate forward into another unit. This then reduces the incoming fire by at least 1 unit, and gives them the potential of having a 2nd round of combat later in that turn.

I also feel like , with melee units, you have to factor in deep-strike or not. If they aren’t deep-striking, I’d go for a measure of 2 turns of survival, but likely only 1 turn of combat (as they likely won’t be able to do anything at all expect move in the first turn), so, they are either open to 2 rounds of shooting, or will get charged due to them being “out of range” first turn.

Deep-striking units I’d give the standard 2 rounds, with the caveat that they make their first 9” charge.


Interesting analysis, indeed it's not a simple matter. Some times a melee specialist has only turn to score points, while my termagants keeping an IK at bay surely follow a different pattern. I'll try to cook up something keeping in mind these considerations.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 15:13:51


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
That's a model i use game by game to evaluate the different units and how they performed. It's hard to do that on an absolute level, at least the "How much it killed part". The second part is a bit easier, since you can guesstimate how much shooting it will take to go down and which kind of units will shoot at it. I like this system because it allows you to easily include the cost of support units in the math.
What i still have problems to define is the average life on a melee model, so i can't define how many points of melee specialists you have to absorb on average.


I’d personally expect there to be 2 different life expectancies for melee units, depending on whether they managed to charge, or were charged.

In all likelihood, a melee unit that gets charged often only has a slim chance of surviving into the next turn (when charged by another specialist unit), however, if they are charged with a tar pitting unit, I’d expect them to survive all game.

As you’re looking at specialist units, I’d probably tend to lean more towards the 1 turn side of things, when they get charged.

However, when they do the charging, I’d expect their life expectancy to double to around 2 turns. This is simply because they will likely destroy the enemy unit in that 1 turn and can then consolidate forward into another unit. This then reduces the incoming fire by at least 1 unit, and gives them the potential of having a 2nd round of combat later in that turn.

I also feel like , with melee units, you have to factor in deep-strike or not. If they aren’t deep-striking, I’d go for a measure of 2 turns of survival, but likely only 1 turn of combat (as they likely won’t be able to do anything at all expect move in the first turn), so, they are either open to 2 rounds of shooting, or will get charged due to them being “out of range” first turn.

Deep-striking units I’d give the standard 2 rounds, with the caveat that they make their first 9” charge.


Interesting analysis, indeed it's not a simple matter. Some times a melee specialist has only turn to score points, while my termagants keeping an IK at bay surely follow a different pattern. I'll try to cook up something keeping in mind these considerations.


I agree, non specialist units will need another metric. For example, a horde/screening unit would be measured by footprint and survivability based on how many points required to remove it.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 15:32:53


Post by: Elbows


It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 16:09:17


Post by: Xenomancers


 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 16:19:52


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?


The problem is that the answer is "it depends."

Are you paying less points to do more damage because your unit is drastically less durable? Are you doing more damage because you're firing at a preferred target type? Is the damage you do heavily dependent on your opponent making a mistake or taking a certain build? Is your unit dramatically faster or slower than the enemy's, making its effectiveness vary with board size?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 16:22:19


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?


There's a difference between "plays a factor" and "is the end-all be-all." For example, position yourself smartly and the PPW approaches infinity of enemy models, as they aren't able to target and create wounds. Target your Fire Dragons against that guard squad and watch your PPM break down. Lots of us play for fluff, too - we don't want to bring a perfect PPM army because it's boring or a waste of models/time/money.

Complaining at the level that you are is akin to complaining that your dice are slightly unbalanced and roll 1's more than they should. Sure, technically, it's a thing and if you were TFG and/or really into competitive, you'd buy perfectly-weighted casino dice. But 99% of the time, it just makes you come across as pedantic and nitpicky. And it does that even moreso when you argue it repeatedly and poorly, refusing to admit contrary evidence or other rules (toughness, ability to deep strike, mobility, durability) that are in play.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 17:04:28


Post by: darkarchonlord


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?

I'll give you an extreme example where that breaks down.

A wave serpent with shuriken cannons costs 144 and has 3 shuriken cannons (total assault 129 because I can't math apparently), hits on a 3+, and has a degrading stat line. 5 guardians have 1 more attack and only cost 40pts. By your math hammer logic, no one should ever take wave serpents cause wtf, they cost 3.5x as much as the guardians that do more.

Now this is obviously hyperbole but you can see where the mathhammer breaks down. You need to take into account a units utility, keywords, range, versatility against different types of units, durability, weaknesses to certain types of damage. All these things go into balancing the game. If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 17:12:15


Post by: DarknessEternal


Shuriken Cannons only have 3 shots.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 17:13:39


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


darkarchonlord wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?

I'll give you an extreme example where that breaks down.

A wave serpent with shuriken cannons costs 144 and has 3 shuriken cannons (total assault 12), hits on a 3+, and has a degrading stat line. 6 guardians have the exact same damage potential and only cost 48pts. By your math hammer logic, no one should ever take wave serpents cause wtf, they cost 3x as much as the same damage guardians.

Now this is obviously hyperbole but you can see where the mathhammer breaks down. You need to take into account a units utility, keywords, range, versatility against different types of units, durability, weaknesses to certain types of damage. All these things go into balancing the game. If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out.


Just to head off Xeno here, you can use the same argument for a pair of War Walkers with cannons (140 points for 33% more firepower *and* an invuln save, no degrading statline, plus infiltration, etc.).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 17:41:55


Post by: Xenomancers


darkarchonlord wrote:
I'm not going to go through all the effort of quoting but swooping hawks are basically the worst anti GEQ in the game (when comparing anti GEQ units) essentially never making their points back against the units their designed to kill. It's not that their weapons are bad, its that they're (as with almost all footdar) so expoensive per model and so fething squishy that they can't compete point for point. Do you really think 10 swooping hawks can kill 33 guardsmen even if they hit first? Not a chance. Don't forget they're fast attack so we can't even use them to fill out battalions for more CP.

Whoever said spears don't have a penalty for advancing is dead wrong. Given their movespeed you basically never want to have to advance your spears because if you do you have to spend CP just to allow them to charge. You're using CP to give them 6" of move which is pretty garbage.

Guardian PPW in a vacuum are great, until you remember they're 12" and now they're in rapidfire range of everyone else so your mathhammer goes out the window and every guardian costs as much as 2 guardsmen for the same toughness and wounds.

What Xeno seems to be forgetting is the PPW isn't damn near close to enough to determine how points effective a unit is, you need to compare the PPW it takes to KILL them too and thats why you seem to think eldar is AP. Yes, most things have pretty good PPW but Eldar is typically firing against 1.5 - 2x the same amount of wounds/toughness equivalent.

I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?


You only advance with your spears to get into perfect position - so you can fire your 6 inch range guns and charge as many units as possible. Obviously you don't do it if you don't need to. Why saying no penalty (it really just means you can still make all your actions) the cost is a command point. In regards to hawks. They can expect to kill 10ish guardsmen a turn - 7 if they are in cover. It's not incredible. But it's enough to kill 10 GEQ a turn without any support and being able to maneuver to the perfect position with a 15-20" move with no penalty for the advance. It would be a lot juicer to shoot a unit of veterans with a las cannon in the back line (they could easily reach them). If standing next to an autarch they kill 15 gaunts - which is almost half their points in damage. Not bad for an army with no anti horde ability. I also can't imagine hawks being a priority target when they are shining spears or 20 guardians in your face or both in your face.

Gardians die fast - but they are never taking fire until you are set up - they are ether deep striking in or in a wave serpent so they are first striking basically all the time and their 4++ invo strategem makes guardians pretty tough to bring down. They aren't a super unit but they are also very versatile. In my game last night they dealt the killing blows to an imperial knight with weight of fire on 6s. There really aren't a lot of troop units in that can kill an infantry unit one turn and then the next turn take down an imperial knight - esp not without expensive upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out."

Unfortunately the roll to go first and army list decide a huge amount of battles in this game. The better lists usually wins. The better list has more efficient units. That is exactly how it works.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 18:11:49


Post by: darkarchonlord


 Xenomancers wrote:
You only advance with your spears to get into perfect position - so you can fire your 6 inch range guns and charge as many units as possible. Obviously you don't do it if you don't need to. Why saying no penalty (it really just means you can still make all your actions) the cost is a command point. In regards to hawks. They can expect to kill 10ish guardsmen a turn - 7 if they are in cover. It's not incredible. But it's enough to kill 10 GEQ a turn without any support and being able to maneuver to the perfect position with a 15-20" move with no penalty for the advance. It would be a lot juicer to shoot a unit of veterans with a las cannon in the back line (they could easily reach them). If standing next to an autarch they kill 15 gaunts - which is almost half their points in damage. Not bad for an army with no anti horde ability. I also can't imagine hawks being a priority target when they are shining spears or 20 guardians in your face or both in your face.

Gardians die fast - but they are never taking fire until you are set up - they are ether deep striking in or in a wave serpent so they are first striking basically all the time and their 4++ invo strategem makes guardians pretty tough to bring down. They aren't a super unit but they are also very versatile. In my game last night they dealt the killing blows to an imperial knight with weight of fire on 6s. There really aren't a lot of troop units in that can kill an infantry unit one turn and then the next turn take down an imperial knight - esp not without expensive upgrades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out."

Unfortunately the roll to go first and army list decide a huge amount of battles in this game. The better lists usually wins. The better list has more efficient units. That is exactly how it works.


If you can shoot 21+6 shots and still be in range to charge than your opponent has likely done something drastically wrong. Also you can do this with ONE unit of spears only and it costs a CP so it's not broken, there's a cost to it. Also don't forget Eldar is the army that has the lowest potential for command points since Eldar troops are among the most expensive, especially when you compare their effectiveness.

Swooping hawks are 13pts a model, killing a guardsman each is complete garbage and you're completly ignoring return fire. I've done the math on that one, the same points worth of hawks and guardsmen, the guard win EVEN IF the hawks fire first which is absolutely ridiculous when guard are what they are designed to deal with.

You're right in that guardians will get their first volley off, but its usually not enough to equal their point total and then they're within 12" of an enemy that can slaughter their squishy T3 W1 5+ bodies. The strategem is pretty good and it makes a single 20man guardian blob a pretty good unit, not going to argue that one, I've got one in my army myself (to deal with screens mostly). Certainly not OP though since you're burning 2CP to get them there plus an extra CP a turn to try to keep them alive. Do keep in mind a 20man guardian blob cost 160pts, the same as 40 guardsmen who have more firepower. Guardians are probably just slightly overcosted, they could stand to lose a point per model (7pt each instead of 6pt).

First army to go first does have a huge advantage and I'd prefer to see a system with alternating fire to reduce this impact. There really isn't such a thing as a "better" list for tournaments, each has their own viable strategy and "better" is hugely up for debate. The "better" list is not the one with the most efficient units, it's the one with the best strategy + luck. Just like the example I gave above, there is much MUCH more to units besides their PPW. Most important would be the amount of damage it can absorb before it dies, and it's general utility.

You feel Eldar is OP because they tend to be very good PPW. What you seem to fail to understand is that Eldar are one of if not the worst armies for how much damage their models can absorb. Eldar is a very glass cannon army and glass cannons are relatively easily countered. This is why Eldar are not absolutely slaughtering the tournament scene. Hell, the Eldar army to win the last major tournament had none of these units you seem to be deemed OP, it was pretty much soley filled with dark reapers, which I will fully admit are undercosted by at least 3 points per model if not more.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 18:15:28


Post by: Xenomancers


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?

I'll give you an extreme example where that breaks down.

A wave serpent with shuriken cannons costs 144 and has 3 shuriken cannons (total assault 12), hits on a 3+, and has a degrading stat line. 6 guardians have the exact same damage potential and only cost 48pts. By your math hammer logic, no one should ever take wave serpents cause wtf, they cost 3x as much as the same damage guardians.

Now this is obviously hyperbole but you can see where the mathhammer breaks down. You need to take into account a units utility, keywords, range, versatility against different types of units, durability, weaknesses to certain types of damage. All these things go into balancing the game. If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out.


Just to head off Xeno here, you can use the same argument for a pair of War Walkers with cannons (140 points for 33% more firepower *and* an invuln save, no degrading statline, plus infiltration, etc.).

Warwalkers - another versatile anti infantry option. Already mentioned on the previous page. Mainly just trying to dispel the notion that eldar have weak anti infantry options so they need spears to be undercosted. Makes me laugh.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 18:25:07


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
darkarchonlord wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
It's why I never ever bother with mathhammer. On a good board, in a dice game, only the most vague mathhammer is really relevant. When you get into silly minutia of wounds per point, etc...it becomes rather pointless. Won't stop people from parading it around like it's the truth or factual though.

So in your opinion...paying less for units that deal more damage than your opponent does not play a factor in victory?

I'll give you an extreme example where that breaks down.

A wave serpent with shuriken cannons costs 144 and has 3 shuriken cannons (total assault 12), hits on a 3+, and has a degrading stat line. 6 guardians have the exact same damage potential and only cost 48pts. By your math hammer logic, no one should ever take wave serpents cause wtf, they cost 3x as much as the same damage guardians.

Now this is obviously hyperbole but you can see where the mathhammer breaks down. You need to take into account a units utility, keywords, range, versatility against different types of units, durability, weaknesses to certain types of damage. All these things go into balancing the game. If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out.


Just to head off Xeno here, you can use the same argument for a pair of War Walkers with cannons (140 points for 33% more firepower *and* an invuln save, no degrading statline, plus infiltration, etc.).

Warwalkers - another versatile anti infantry option. Already mentioned on the previous page. Mainly just trying to dispel the notion that eldar have weak anti infantry options so they need spears to be undercosted. Makes me laugh.


Wait. So now you think that spears are an anti-infantry option...and that's what the key argument for costing them more competitively is. Oookay.

I think we've run beyond silly and are well into delusional territory.

Edit: I'd also note out that you completely missed the point. You seem to be only interested in arguing straw men you've created in your own head rather than reality.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 18:36:11


Post by: Spoletta


darkarchonlord wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You only advance with your spears to get into perfect position - so you can fire your 6 inch range guns and charge as many units as possible. Obviously you don't do it if you don't need to. Why saying no penalty (it really just means you can still make all your actions) the cost is a command point. In regards to hawks. They can expect to kill 10ish guardsmen a turn - 7 if they are in cover. It's not incredible. But it's enough to kill 10 GEQ a turn without any support and being able to maneuver to the perfect position with a 15-20" move with no penalty for the advance. It would be a lot juicer to shoot a unit of veterans with a las cannon in the back line (they could easily reach them). If standing next to an autarch they kill 15 gaunts - which is almost half their points in damage. Not bad for an army with no anti horde ability. I also can't imagine hawks being a priority target when they are shining spears or 20 guardians in your face or both in your face.

Gardians die fast - but they are never taking fire until you are set up - they are ether deep striking in or in a wave serpent so they are first striking basically all the time and their 4++ invo strategem makes guardians pretty tough to bring down. They aren't a super unit but they are also very versatile. In my game last night they dealt the killing blows to an imperial knight with weight of fire on 6s. There really aren't a lot of troop units in that can kill an infantry unit one turn and then the next turn take down an imperial knight - esp not without expensive upgrades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If the game was simply PPW then no one would bother playing, the game would be decided at turn 0 when both players bring their army lists out."

Unfortunately the roll to go first and army list decide a huge amount of battles in this game. The better lists usually wins. The better list has more efficient units. That is exactly how it works.


If you can shoot 21+6 shots and still be in range to charge than your opponent has likely done something drastically wrong. Also you can do this with ONE unit of spears only and it costs a CP so it's not broken, there's a cost to it. Also don't forget Eldar is the army that has the lowest potential for command points since Eldar troops are among the most expensive, especially when you compare their effectiveness.

Swooping hawks are 13pts a model, killing a guardsman each is complete garbage and you're completly ignoring return fire. I've done the math on that one, the same points worth of hawks and guardsmen, the guard win EVEN IF the hawks fire first which is absolutely ridiculous when guard are what they are designed to deal with.

You're right in that guardians will get their first volley off, but its usually not enough to equal their point total and then they're within 12" of an enemy that can slaughter their squishy T3 W1 5+ bodies. The strategem is pretty good and it makes a single 20man guardian blob a pretty good unit, not going to argue that one, I've got one in my army myself (to deal with screens mostly). Certainly not OP though since you're burning 2CP to get them there plus an extra CP a turn to try to keep them alive. Do keep in mind a 20man guardian blob cost 160pts, the same as 40 guardsmen who have more firepower. Guardians are probably just slightly overcosted, they could stand to lose a point per model (7pt each instead of 6pt).

First army to go first does have a huge advantage and I'd prefer to see a system with alternating fire to reduce this impact. There really isn't such a thing as a "better" list for tournaments, each has their own viable strategy and "better" is hugely up for debate. The "better" list is not the one with the most efficient units, it's the one with the best strategy + luck. Just like the example I gave above, there is much MUCH more to units besides their PPW. Most important would be the amount of damage it can absorb before it dies, and it's general utility.

You feel Eldar is OP because they tend to be very good PPW. What you seem to fail to understand is that Eldar are one of if not the worst armies for how much damage their models can absorb. Eldar is a very glass cannon army and glass cannons are relatively easily countered. This is why Eldar are not absolutely slaughtering the tournament scene. Hell, the Eldar army to win the last major tournament had none of these units you seem to be deemed OP, it was pretty much soley filled with dark reapers, which I will fully admit are undercosted by at least 3 points per model if not more.


Where can i find those lists?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 18:37:49


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Edit: I'd also note out that you completely missed the point. You seem to be only interested in arguing straw men you've created in your own head rather than reality.


Welcome to the logical fallacy roundabout with Xenomancer! It's tiring, but necessary, otherwise he runs all over the board screaming that the sky is falling and we're all going to die in the coming FOTM apocalypse.

According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!

Anyways, as you pointed out, PPW is only useful to a certain extent, since it fails to account for a number of different factors that affect the game beyond a flat determination of offensive weapon efficiency.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 19:23:12


Post by: Elbows


I'm still patiently waiting for the answer from Xeno: if Shining Spears went up 4-5 points a model...and your opponent still took the same list, just dropping some secondary models in the backfield...how would you deal with it? You're obviously complaining that Shining Spears are undercosted. That's fine, so even if they bumped their points cost - it's not as if it would have a drastic change on an army. Twenty Shining Spears going up by 5 points a model is a measly 100 points in an army of 1500-2000...just not a big change.

At this point the "boohoo, they're cheap" crusade needs to give way to: find a better way to play against them - something you're not addressing.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 19:33:44


Post by: Xenomancers


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Edit: I'd also note out that you completely missed the point. You seem to be only interested in arguing straw men you've created in your own head rather than reality.


Welcome to the logical fallacy roundabout with Xenomancer! It's tiring, but necessary, otherwise he runs all over the board screaming that the sky is falling and we're all going to die in the coming FOTM apocalypse.

"According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!"

Anyways, as you pointed out, PPW is only useful to a certain extent, since it fails to account for a number of different factors that affect the game beyond a flat determination of offensive weapon efficiency.

For someone so obsessed with fallacy. You are guilty of at least 3 in this statement.

I'd like to know how you come up with this - What is this? "According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!"
Does this have to do with model size or something? I am well aware that land raiders are bigger than space marines. I'm also aware that both units are terrible as well.

Also please tell me what my straw-man argument is so I can debunk it immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
I'm still patiently waiting for the answer from Xeno: if Shining Spears went up 4-5 points a model...and your opponent still took the same list, just dropping some secondary models in the backfield...how would you deal with it? You're obviously complaining that Shining Spears are undercosted. That's fine, so even if they bumped their points cost - it's not as if it would have a drastic change on an army. Twenty Shining Spears going up by 5 points a model is a measly 100 points in an army of 1500-2000...just not a big change.

At this point the "boohoo, they're cheap" crusade needs to give way to: find a better way to play against them - something you're not addressing.

My proposed point change to give them an overall 10 points increase. 4-5 points is not not enough. Also the exrach weapon needs a significant price increase it should be over 20 points.

This would result in around a 100 point increase for a 9 man unit. The truth is - considering they steamroll armies almost by themselves (when you factor in the supporting fire of the eldar army behind them that basically gets an additional turn of free shooting while the opponent struggles to bring down a buffed spears unit.) It probably wont change much. it's 100 more points of firepower not coming at you at least.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 19:57:16


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
For someone so obsessed with fallacy. You are guilty of at least 3 in this statement.


This is absolutely true.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'd like to know how you come up with this - What is this? "According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!"


Because PPW seems to be the only metric you have any interest in, at which point, all other variables associated with a given unit are thrown out the window.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also please tell me what my straw-man argument is so I can debunk it immediately.


With another appeal from authority or another hasty generalization? Perhaps we'll be regaled with another anecdotal data point that will be used to make a hasty generalization.

Straw Man - When a person ignores one actual position, and presents an exaggerated one

Seriously Xeno, this is your entire schtick.

Ultimately, the sad part is that you're often only wrong by degrees, not entirely, but you absolutely refuse to put any work into your arguments. Several people on this thread have gone through the effort to actually do the math, discuss the scenarios, related variables, you know, do the work. You do not.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 19:57:57


Post by: DarknessEternal


 Xenomancers wrote:
The truth is - considering they steamroll armies almost by themselves (when you factor in the supporting fire of the eldar army behind them

They steamroll armies by themselves, but only when they receive supporting fire? By themselves. Supporting fire.

Snuh?

There is a problem with your way of thought.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 20:26:50


Post by: Xenomancers


 DarknessEternal wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The truth is - considering they steamroll armies almost by themselves (when you factor in the supporting fire of the eldar army behind them

They steamroll armies by themselves, but only when they receive supporting fire? By themselves. Supporting fire.

Snuh?

There is a problem with your way of thought.

So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 20:47:13


Post by: bananathug


darkarchonlord wrote:

First army to go first does have a huge advantage and I'd prefer to see a system with alternating fire to reduce this impact. There really isn't such a thing as a "better" list for tournaments, each has their own viable strategy and "better" is hugely up for debate. The "better" list is not the one with the most efficient units, it's the one with the best strategy + luck. Just like the example I gave above, there is much MUCH more to units besides their PPW. Most important would be the amount of damage it can absorb before it dies, and it's general utility.

You feel Eldar is OP because they tend to be very good PPW. What you seem to fail to understand is that Eldar are one of if not the worst armies for how much damage their models can absorb. Eldar is a very glass cannon army and glass cannons are relatively easily countered. This is why Eldar are not absolutely slaughtering the tournament scene. Hell, the Eldar army to win the last major tournament had none of these units you seem to be deemed OP, it was pretty much soley filled with dark reapers, which I will fully admit are undercosted by at least 3 points per model if not more.


Bolded the part that I don't understand at all. No such thing as a better list, if you mean best then I could understand that but better? If there are no better lists there are no worse lists and that's crazy. The most recent GT was eldar, chaos and AM. The strategies employed by most winning lists are built around the most efficient units. The one before that was eldar, chaos and AM, hell socal open was chaos and AM. You find what works better than what your opponents can field and then figure out how to maximize on that advantage. If your list was limited to gak (ie the marine codex) you can have whatever strategy you want and you won't perform well (as indicated by SM codex performance since the eldar codex has dropped).

While talking strategy you refer to eldar as glass cannons ignoring they have great options to just not be engaged until they want to alpha strike and then their disproportionate fire power is what makes them OP.
1. Webway (1-3 units immune to shooting until you want them to be)
2. Altroc (-1 to hit)
3. Conceal (look another -1 to hit)
4. -1 to hit strat (damn -3 to hit is pretty much invincible no mater what you're shooting at it, unless it's reapers...)
5. Super durable transports (I'm pretty sure they are point for point the most durable transport around)
6. Highly mobile units (lack of penalty to hits after moving, a lot of fly units and just large movement radius) means you can use LOS blocking terrain more efficiently than other armies.

So you can have 4-5 units immune to shooting (3 webway, 1-2 in nearly impossible to pop in one round of shooting transports) and two more units at a -2 to hit and out of LOS (so enemy has to move in order to shoot at it so many armies will be a -3 to hit making it effectively immortal). So what's that 7 drops that can't be shot and will be able to shoot back at an advantage. For someone who seems to place a premium on strategy I'm not sure how you are ignoring these obvious advantages. (oh you can make one of your units require a 6 to hit right?)

Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP?

I really hope you are trolling here because these points seem to fly in the face of everything most people understand on a pretty basic level.

edit for typo


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 20:56:31


Post by: Xenomancers


banana I agree with you on everything but only 2 units can web-way.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:27:58


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


bananathug wrote:
Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP?edit for typo


I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts.

Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army."

As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:36:12


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn


Yet, numerous posters on this thread have proven that this is only the case for particularly favorable matchups. Against 2 wound infantry models, sure, I can make the calculus show SS punching significantly above their weight class. By the same token, I can pull examples which show them being stymied by units that cost significantly less.

So, again, hasty generalization.

 Xenomancers wrote:
- with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem-


To be fair, "just destroying them", is the standard defense methodology that is applied to 99.999999% of units in the game. Furthermore, in this edition the ability to disengage from close combat begs the question of, what defense were you expecting to mount outside of destroying them?

 Xenomancers wrote:
it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


Again, this is a hasty generalization, it assumes you have no effective means to engage the unit. It assumes you're operating at every possible disadvantage available in the match. It assumes you've designed your army so poorly that it can't overwhelm the basic wound mechanics against a 9 man unit that is toughness 4! Quite frankly, I could easily leap to the conclusion it assumes you're utterly incompetent (which is an ad homniem logical fallacy on my part as well as a hasty generalization).


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:39:45


Post by: DarknessEternal


 Xenomancers wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The truth is - considering they steamroll armies almost by themselves (when you factor in the supporting fire of the eldar army behind them

They steamroll armies by themselves, but only when they receive supporting fire? By themselves. Supporting fire.

Snuh?

There is a problem with your way of thought.

So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


Hey, look over there. No in the distance. It's the point.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:43:41


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Xenomancers wrote:
...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:44:19


Post by: Xenomancers


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
For someone so obsessed with fallacy. You are guilty of at least 3 in this statement.


This is absolutely true.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'd like to know how you come up with this - What is this? "According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!"


Because PPW seems to be the only metric you have any interest in, at which point, all other variables associated with a given unit are thrown out the window.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also please tell me what my straw-man argument is so I can debunk it immediately.


With another appeal from authority or another hasty generalization? Perhaps we'll be regaled with another anecdotal data point that will be used to make a hasty generalization.

Straw Man - When a person ignores one actual position, and presents an exaggerated one

Seriously Xeno, this is your entire schtick.

Ultimately, the sad part is that you're often only wrong by degrees, not entirely, but you absolutely refuse to put any work into your arguments. Several people on this thread have gone through the effort to actually do the math, discuss the scenarios, related variables, you know, do the work. You do not.

PPW is not the only metric I am interested in. Mobility and synergy with supporting units and stratagems is another very important factor and spears absolutely top the list with synergy as well - I try to argue this point but then people just start saying "oh the unit requires support so it's not actually OP". Syngery isn't something tangible like math (PPW) though so I am much more interested in the mathematics argument. The unit is OP for more than one reason - for starters it's undercosted as I demonstrated here on page 5.

[Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...]

You proceeded to argue with me that a plasma pistol wasn't a proper comparison without offering a better comparison. Statistically the weapons are very similar and both have pros and cons - I'd say their point value must be within 1 point at least? No opinion or better comparison was given.

You responded with this-

[Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.]

I responded with this

[Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.]

You didn't respond to the qubit about windriders. I'll go as far as to say they aren't a great unit on the table top compared to what you can get in other units but it's mostly due to synergy is better with other units. They can use the same stratagems as the guardians but the guardians make more use of them with better PPW at the cost of loss of mobility - guardians don't need mobility when they deep strike though. Someone even mentioned a tournament where 3 max units TLSC windriders and 3 max SS units won a GT in Europe.

Feel free to argue with ether of my assessments of these units costs.



It's synergies are also some of the best in the game.
Extremely high probably of first turn assault.
Extremely high defensive buff potential
Highest value of guide cast
Highest value per doomed target
Near unrestricted mobility (with quicken + siam han strategem) with no penalty other than CP cost

Eldar IMO do have the strongest codex even if you took shining spears out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
bananathug wrote:
Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP?edit for typo


I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts.

Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army."

As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.
Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent. CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick. Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening. Any discussion about top armies right now that doesn't include eldar is somewhat of a joke IMO.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)

2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 21:57:01


Post by: WindstormSCR


 AnomanderRake wrote:


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)


Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme-loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.

Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]

They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.


[edit] To stave off the "But Guide" and "but muh Fortune!" comments, I think the single best fix I have seen on the subject is not nerfing spears or reapers, but simply capping the unit size at six and five respectively. The problem you seem to be apoplectic about is not the units themselves, but how efficient it is to saturate large units of aspect warriors with multiple supporting buffs.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 22:14:58


Post by: Xenomancers


WindstormSCR wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)


Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme-loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.

Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]

They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.

You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:02:05


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
bananathug wrote:
Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP?edit for typo


I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts.

Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army."

As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.
Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent. CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick. Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening. Any discussion about top armies right now that doesn't include eldar is somewhat of a joke IMO.


Uhhh...that podcast was dated 12/3/17. Fairly sure the Eldar codex is more then 10 days old.

This is a good example of your strawmanning - you just brush off the actual point and insert your own fake news narrative ("that tournament was a joke" or "The podcast is too old and surely these professionals have no idea how the game works") without knowing the facts or acknowledging that the facts directly disproved a guy you've been repeatedly agreeing with as correct. Dismiss the truth, ignore the facts, argue something else. For someone who is so quick to call others a "joke," you're proving your opinions more and more a laughingstock.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:04:29


Post by: Lord Perversor


 Xenomancers wrote:
WindstormSCR wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)


Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme-loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.

Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]

They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.

You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.


So you are complainning that Spears are OP because cheesing up an army in order to buff them they become OP, so for your reasoning Genestealers are Op because you can cheese up a nid army in order to get larger units of them charging anywhere in the table top, plus they are cheap so easier to bring more chaf to clear down screens too?


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:10:11


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Xenomancers wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.


...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?

(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)

2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.


"Essentially Magnus-level durability"? With T4? No Invulnerable rerolls? Three psychic powers that have to be stacked to get that far rather than one buff on top of his built-in properties? 480pts and three HQ choices worth of psykers to pull off that setup?

I'm not following you here.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:15:47


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
PPW is not the only metric I am interested in. Mobility and synergy with supporting units and stratagems is another very important factor and spears absolutely top the list with synergy as well - I try to argue this point but then people just start saying "oh the unit requires support so it's not actually OP".


But that's not how you started the debate, that's where you moved it to, that's called moving the goalposts, it's a disingenuous method of debate. If you want to have an entire discussion about synergy, who best take advantage of it, who has the best, seriously, we'll need a database server.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Syngery isn't something tangible like math (PPW) though so I am much more interested in the mathematics argument. The unit is OP for more than one reason - for starters it's undercosted as I demonstrated here on page 5.

[Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)


This is not a demonstration, this is a declaration.

Furthermore, your example fails to take into consideration available weapon options or the manner in which the unit will be used. I could, for example, argue that because of their ability to stay at range, Windriders will more often benefit from a cover save, mitigating the points cost associated with the +1 armor save. Mobility has been relegated to being a largely offensive stat, since the prevalence of flyers, deep strike, etc, significantly detracts from a unit's ability to use movement to actually protect itself.

Several posters have already pointed out that the shooting weapon is significantly less useful than a Plasma Pistol, due to lack of range, lack of strength, and lack of ability to improve it's strength. The Plasma Pistol hits 2 key Strength breakpoints in the game, specifically, Toughness 7 (almost all monstrous creatures and base transports) and Toughness 8 (any high end transport or super-heavy). At the range you're firing these weapons, the fact that the Plasma Pistol might kill the model is fairly insignificant, and since we're involving buffs and synergy in all this now, I can safely say that 80% of the time, nobody's firing a Plasma Pistol on overcharge without the ability to re-roll 1s anyways.

As for the Lance in CC, you routinely ignore the fact that this weapon turns to crap in subsequent rounds of combat, getting us back around to the fact that this unit is a one-turn wonder, at best. I'm sorry, perhaps it's just playing marines for so long, I just have no real fear of the Strength 3 power weapon. Especially when it's ripping out a wild and crazy 2 attacks per round.

So, for 8 points per model, on a unit I can reasonably expect to perform for one turn, this seems not wildly out of balance. I might bump their cost by a few points, but it's hardly the world beater that you're selling it as on the thread.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You proceeded to argue with me that a plasma pistol wasn't a proper comparison without offering a better comparison. Statistically the weapons are very similar and both have pros and cons - I'd say their point value must be within 1 point at least? No opinion or better comparison was given.


You're right, there aren't a lot of good comparisons for the Lance, it's one of those funky Eldar weapons that defies easy comparison. However, making a straight comparison to a Plasma Pistol and calling that the cost is not the right way to go about it either. If that were the case then Plasma Guns would cost the same for Scions and Guardsmen, but they don't, obviously the unit carrying the weapon factors directly into the cost of the weapon, which means all kinds of squishy logic goes into determining points costs. A comparable Eldar or Dark Eldar weapon would probably be the best place to start such a comparison.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.]


I didn't respond, because this is again, declaration, not demonstration. Great, you believe that this an appropriately costed unit. Based on what? Your own authority? Oversimplifying the attributes in a vacuum until you get the result you want to present?

Additionally, you left out the ability of every model in the unit to upgrade their weapon (and significantly increase their ability to engage at range). How many points is that worth?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Someone even mentioned a tournament where 3 max units TLSC windriders and 3 max SS units won a GT in Europe.


Seriously, some guy said they rocked the European GT, they must be bad ass? Go find tourney results, so lazy, ffs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Feel free to argue with ether of my assessments of these units costs.


Get into a squishy, largely unsupportable, argument about whether a Laser Lance should be 5 points or 6 points or capable of destroying the Death Star without firing into the exhaust port? Please, shoot me now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's synergies are also some of the best in the game.


Every list has amazing synergies, they tend to be the subject of whatever, "oh my god, I got rolled at the game store by X" thread is running this week. I personally think CSM got the best, most generally appicable and easy to user psychic powers in the game, I would even agree that Eldar psychic powers are definitely on par with them. The downside being that they have to package those powers into scrawny little elf bodies that turn to dust under chainaxes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Extremely high probably of first turn assault.


Welcome to the club, seriously, what army doesn't have highly effective first turn assault options other than some of the Index lists and AM?


 Xenomancers wrote:
Extremely high defensive buff potential


Super, me too!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Highest value of guide cast
Highest value per doomed target


Do you see how this is an absolute declaration? Do you see how there is no information to back this up other than you saying so? Do you understand why this is a hasty generalization or at best an appeal from authority (yours)?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Near unrestricted mobility (with quicken + siam han strategem) with no penalty other than CP cost


Lots of armies have units with "near unrestricted mobility", this is not uncommon, one might take from the emerging trends within the current edition, that we should expect pretty much every army to have some units with "near unrestricted mobility" because, as I mentioned earlier, it's not what it used to be.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar IMO do have the strongest codex even if you took shining spears out of it.


Do you see how this is not an absolute declaration? Do you see how this doesn't require information to back this up other than you saying so? Do you understand why this isn't a hasty generalization or at best an appeal from authority (yours)?


 Xenomancers wrote:
Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent.


Because it fails to confirm your bias? Seriously, post where you're getting your "results" from, off the back of a truck from some dude downtown is not legit, fyi.

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick.


Yes, the soup has simmered for awhile and some very nice combos are starting to come out of the woodwork for CSM. I still wish there was a place at the table for CSM squads and Havocs, but I'll settle for the ability to field some competitive lists for the time being. Imperium soup will always be strong, just too many armies and units for them to pull from not to have the tools they need at their disposal.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening.


I would agree that modelling and painting and calculation lag are limiting the appearance of competitive Eldar list, but that excuse is dwindling by the day.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.


So basically, you're loading up almost all the buffs available to you onto one unit and then making your comparison. That's moving the goalposts (a lot), and is an entirely different debate that is way more complex than measuring a single unit in a vacuum. You're talking about databases of comparisons now.

Ok, that was a long post and a lot of formatting, I'm done for today. Xeno, just stop making absolute declarations, have a discussion, don't make an announcement, ffs, the sky will be there in the morning.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:16:51


Post by: WindstormSCR


 Xenomancers wrote:

You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.


you really don't get the point do you.

NO UNIT in the entire game of 40k should be evaluated for PPW by taking into account the perfectly optimal situation, but an average one.

my use case for them is exactly that, an average. I wouldn't evaluate genestealers by assuming all of the buffs they can get with some hive fleets as 'standard' and I sure as don't evaluate space marine units assuming that they have bobby G, a lieutenant and an apothecary within 6"!

the cost of a buff should not be on the unit its applied to, but a separate issue of costing of the unit GIVING the buff. so when you try and argue for a points per model change to a unit, don't bring buffs into it at all except perhaps stratagems (which in this case have little bearing)


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:32:35


Post by: DarknessEternal


 AnomanderRake wrote:

"Essentially Magnus-level durability"? With T4? No Invulnerable rerolls? Three psychic powers that have to be stacked to get that far rather than one buff on top of his built-in properties? 480pts and three HQ choices worth of psykers to pull off that setup?

I'm not following you here.

Let's not forget he also said they are capable of steamrolling an army by themselves (but somehow only with massive support). I'm not sure he know what either of those conditions means.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/13 23:37:34


Post by: Elbows


Xeno, if you're not tracking, here's the issue we are having (yet again...)

You're complaining about a unit. Your complaint boils down to inconsistent mathhammer.

Then you say "oh, by the way they're spending a stratagem or two, casting several spells on them, supporting them with deepstriking infantry, and firing long-distance heavy weapon support..." None of those things, in any way shape or form have anything to do with the Shining Spears. If you do that to ANY unit in the game, it's going to be good. Your opponent has figured out a fully supported, strong tactic and is using it against you...that's not caused by the cost of a unit.

I played against a crazy Dark Angel army the other weak. It was one of those super bubbles. There was a tactical squad in cover which was able to re-roll 1's, had invuln saves, were -1 to be targeted, could re-roll wounds, etc. Does this mean that Tactical marines are broken or amazing? No. The player just gamed the system (correctly) to make them strong. It'd be akin to me complaining about tactical marines for several pages and then saying "Oh, by the way...there was a dark shroud, Azrael, a leiutenant, an ancient..." etc.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 00:05:01


Post by: xmbk


While this thread has gone on, Eldar have taken over the world. A unit of Shining Spears singlehandedly wiped out the Ultramarines, and won 2 GT's at the same time.

Reality will impose its will on this thread shortly, though I imagine Xeno will hang on like a Japanese soldier stranded on a Pacific island.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 09:45:35


Post by: Kdash


Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.

As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.

Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 10:03:49


Post by: Fafnir


Kdash wrote:
Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.

As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.

Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.


Even before Chapter Approved (post Ynnari nerf), Spears were better than Spectres. It wasn't as obvious then, but it was still the case.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 11:19:20


Post by: xmbk


Fafnir, your anger over the Spectre nerf is impressive.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 16:16:59


Post by: Xenomancers


Kdash wrote:
Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.

As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.

Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.

Lots of units could use some price adjustments - I'm not disagreeing with that. It isn't going to happen though. The easiest way to fix the game is to Nerf problem units.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 16:25:12


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Xenomancers wrote:
Lots of units could use some price adjustments - I'm not disagreeing with that. It isn't going to happen though. The easiest way to fix the game is to Nerf problem units.


Possibly, or it becomes a never-ending game of whack-a-mole if you don't approach the problem holistically.

However, approaching the problem holistically is difficult to do with the staggered release of codices.

Which is probably why GW is doing the yearly CA book.

Once we've gone through another year of codex releases, next year's CA will be able to take another, more comprehensive, balancing pass that is able to use data from more tournaments, more codex interaction, and more community feedback.

The idea that we're ever going to get Chess or Go levels of balance is probably a pipe dream in a game with as many squishy variables as this one, but each year they'll tweak it some more, and you'll have to play under the cruel injustices of your GW overlords for another year until they take another pass at it, and so on, and so forth, until 9th edition comes out and makes all your models crap again.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 20:26:21


Post by: Fafnir


xmbk wrote:
Fafnir, your anger over the Spectre nerf is impressive.


Not going to lie, I'm a bit bitter that they nerfed a unit that I had just spent a good amount of money on into Oblivion while leaving the most powerful units in the codex untouched.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/14 20:57:09


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.

It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 07:01:06


Post by: Spoletta


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.

It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.


Easy solution there, take out the Darkshroud.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 10:05:13


Post by: Kdash


Spoletta wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.

It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.


Easy solution there, take out the Darkshroud.


Easier solution - tell them to stop cheating.

Darkshrouds only affect infantry and bikers now, so they won't get the bonus on their flyers.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 15:46:59


Post by: Xenomancers


Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 15:56:30


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.


It's true. Marines never win any tournaments or have any overpowered models to make them even approaching competitive (not to mention get what amounts to an entire codex of new toys this edition). *rolls eyes*


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 15:59:58


Post by: Elbows


Dark Angels have nothing on Blood Angels. +1 to wound...that's Space Marine infantry punching Eldar/Guard to death on a roll of 2+, and literally punching tanks and wounding them on a roll of 4+.



Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 16:10:32


Post by: Xenomancers


 Elbows wrote:
Dark Angels have nothing on Blood Angels. +1 to wound...that's Space Marine infantry punching Eldar/Guard to death on a roll of 2+, and literally punching tanks and wounding them on a roll of 4+.


The key word is punching - will they hit harder than bezerkers? No - maybe as hard. I think blood angels will be middle of the pack okay. They got some key things that are important (double moves + some other mobility generator). Dark angels will do better because they have Azreal and what apears to be good stratagem support and eventually Lion El Johnson.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 16:15:06


Post by: Elbows


On a unit-per-unit basis, I don't think they can handle berserkers, but I think someone will find a way of making the most out of that rather insanely strong chapter trait.

Remember even things like their dreadnoughts...if they have a Strength 9 or better weapon will be damaging LeMan Russes, Land Raiders etc...on a 2+. There is some meat to be chewed there for sure.

Dark Angels are a parking lot if you want to play them super-strong and that's inflexible. Annoying, but inflexible. I think in the end, Space Wolves will be strongest. If they keep the rather ridiculous obsession with Wulfen being one of the best units in the game, you'll see them trounce every other form of marine army.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 16:26:44


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Kdash wrote:


Easier solution - tell them to stop cheating.

Darkshrouds only affect infantry and bikers now, so they won't get the bonus on their flyers.


Not disputing, but curious, where did you see this? I pulled my info from an online review, so it may not be entirely accurate. I know Azrael's bubble got nerfed to infantry and bikers, I didn't see the change to the Darkshroud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
On a unit-per-unit basis, I don't think they can handle berserkers, but I think someone will find a way of making the most out of that rather insanely strong chapter trait.


Properly setup Death Company marines can be rolling with up to 6 attacks each at Strength 5, with +1 to wound. It's more than enough to do what they need to do. For 2 CP, one properly buffed Death Company marine can be ripping out upwards of 9 wounds potentially against GEQ (7.56 with a deviation of 1.67).

 Elbows wrote:
Remember even things like their dreadnoughts...if they have a Strength 9 or better weapon will be damaging LeMan Russes, Land Raiders etc...on a 2+. There is some meat to be chewed there for sure.


Mephiston wounding everything in the game on a 2+, with a FnP of 4+ re-rolling 1s seems pretty good too.

 Elbows wrote:
Dark Angels are a parking lot if you want to play them super-strong and that's inflexible. Annoying, but inflexible. I think in the end, Space Wolves will be strongest. If they keep the rather ridiculous obsession with Wulfen being one of the best units in the game, you'll see them trounce every other form of marine army.


Nah, Azrael's bubble got nerfed to infantry and bikers, no more DA parking lot.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 17:38:01


Post by: Spoletta


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Kdash wrote:


Easier solution - tell them to stop cheating.

Darkshrouds only affect infantry and bikers now, so they won't get the bonus on their flyers.


Not disputing, but curious, where did you see this? I pulled my info from an online review, so it may not be entirely accurate. I know Azrael's bubble got nerfed to infantry and bikers, I didn't see the change to the Darkshroud.



Got the codex in front of me, it still affects every DA unit. Only Azrael was nerfed.


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 18:49:08


Post by: bananathug


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.


It's true. Marines never win any tournaments or have any overpowered models to make them even approaching competitive (not to mention get what amounts to an entire codex of new toys this edition). *rolls eyes*


Point me to a marine army winning a tournament in since the Eldar release. Hell marines should be winning about 25% of tournaments since that's about what their participation rate is if they were as powerful as the rest of the codexes (1/6 in September pre-eldar/nids, 0 for in GTs since as far as I can tell). Considering that one OP model (which isn't) along with the other effective tournament weapon (dual AC) were just nerfed by CA I would be pleasantly surprised to see them in top 10s going forward much less winning.

Just because you get ROFL stomped by marines in your local meta doesn't make them good out in the real world...


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 20:20:14


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


bananathug wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.


It's true. Marines never win any tournaments or have any overpowered models to make them even approaching competitive (not to mention get what amounts to an entire codex of new toys this edition). *rolls eyes*


Point me to a marine army winning a tournament in since the Eldar release. Hell marines should be winning about 25% of tournaments since that's about what their participation rate is if they were as powerful as the rest of the codexes (1/6 in September pre-eldar/nids, 0 for in GTs since as far as I can tell). Considering that one OP model (which isn't) along with the other effective tournament weapon (dual AC) were just nerfed by CA I would be pleasantly surprised to see them in top 10s going forward much less winning.

Just because you get ROFL stomped by marines in your local meta doesn't make them good out in the real world...


Blood Angels - prior even to their codex - did quite well in Warzone Atlanta in November, especially compared to CWE. That’s without your “one OP model,” and was only the first big tournament I had to check. And that’s against a full Eldar codex and with Ynnari out there. But I’m sure you’ll make up some excuse (“Wahh, they only got second in a major tournament, clearly they’re no good!”). Seriously, watching SM players complain carries as much weight as Veruca Salt - with her appropriate last name - screaming, “But I want it now!”

Nice job descending into personal attacks, btw. Really makes your arguments more believable. (Yes, I get the irony here)


Shining Spears - the new OP? @ 2017/12/15 23:23:42


Post by: bananathug


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
bananathug wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.


It's true. Marines never win any tournaments or have any overpowered models to make them even approaching competitive (not to mention get what amounts to an entire codex of new toys this edition). *rolls eyes*


Point me to a marine army winning a tournament in since the Eldar release. Hell marines should be winning about 25% of tournaments since that's about what their participation rate is if they were as powerful as the rest of the codexes (1/6 in September pre-eldar/nids, 0 for in GTs since as far as I can tell). Considering that one OP model (which isn't) along with the other effective tournament weapon (dual AC) were just nerfed by CA I would be pleasantly surprised to see them in top 10s going forward much less winning.

Just because you get ROFL stomped by marines in your local meta doesn't make them good out in the real world...


Blood Angels - prior even to their codex - did quite well in Warzone Atlanta in November, especially compared to CWE. That’s without your “one OP model,” and was only the first big tournament I had to check. And that’s against a full Eldar codex and with Ynnari out there. But I’m sure you’ll make up some excuse (“Wahh, they only got second in a major tournament, clearly they’re no good!”). Seriously, watching SM players complain carries as much weight as Veruca Salt - with her appropriate last name - screaming, “But I want it now!”

Nice job descending into personal attacks, btw. Really makes your arguments more believable. (Yes, I get the irony here)


You're right about the personal attack and I'm sorry it came across that way. I meant it more as a general you (a lot of the people complaining about SM being OP) and not a specific you but it was poorly worded and I should know better. I apologize and will do better in the future.

Another point of clarity, I thought it was understood that I was talking codex space marines and not any variety of space marine under the sun. Since the one "OP" character referenced in your post is contained in that codex I thought it was clear. Again, my bad for not being specific

That "blood angels" list was 3 units of marines (one HQ, razorbacks and storm ravens which have had their price in that configuration raised by CA) and that tournament had a list date of the day the eldar codex released and they still outperformed CODEX space marines. There were literally no other SM armies in the top 10. For a faction that is competitive to only have 1 out of the top 10 seems a bit like a statistical anomaly to me as the other "powerful" factions all had multiple armies in the top 10. Also when just controlling for battle points and remove the subjective scores of painting and sportsmanship (you know, the power of the army in a competitive setting) that blood angle army falls out of the top 3 and all the way down to tied for 9th, not really an overpowering performance.

I don't think that SM are winning lots of tournaments and have overpowered units that make them have a competitive advantage (statement+sarcastic tone = inverse of statement right?). I think that tournament was too soon for most players to put together eldar lists based on the new codex. Given that and the point changes in CA I think tournament results will bear out my assertion that Codex SM are not as powerful a codex as eldar or nids or IG or CSM.

Are you taking the opposite side of that conclusion? That SM will "continue to dominate the tournament scene" or do you think the codexes are fairly balanced and that we will see an even dispersion of wins among the different codexes based on luck, skill, terrain and other variables? It's one of the three and my opinion is that CODEX space marines will not be seen often among the top tables (which the results thus far support)

Thanks for bringing that example of a blood angles soup army that placed well (considering soft scores) at a tournament before the players had a chance to digest the new eldar codex. I doubt these results will hold for Codex Space marines but I would be happy to be proven wrong or hasty in my judgement. Again, sorry about the personal attack and sloppy language, I will try to be more clear going forward.