So now the N&R post is locked and we've been banished back down here, lets try and get some discussion going.

We know they're doing the House gangs in 2018 in plastic, and we know there will be addon packs of weapons likely from FW to account for the (unfortunately necessarily) limited sprues. We know there are a few Hired Gun and Hangers On models coming, also almost certainly in resin. We know that their ambition is to bring the Outlanders content up to date as well, likely in 2019 if things go well over the next year.

Beyond that, what do you think they'll release? What do you *want* them to release?

For me personally, there are three major things, two of which I actually think are kind of necessary and a last one which is just for me:

1. Actual proper Juve models. Yes, you can just use the plastic kits, but in the new setup Juves are supposed to be part of our "regular cast" and they deserve dedicated models.

2. Female models for the other Houses(and any other gangs going forward). I understand why they didn't end up on the sprues even if it was disappointing, but even setting aside that putting out a model range in this day & age where the only female models are for the men-hating space-Amazons faction isn't really on, I want to see them for the sake of simple variety, as a source for conversions, and because in some cases just the basic concept is interesting - there were some vague rumours that female Goliath models might actually exist somewhere on a computer or as a test sculpt, and I want to see how they realised that idea given the extremes of the Goliath physique.

3. Brats. You can keep your xeno-Heretek loving Spyrers, I want my noble gang faction to be the Bullingdon Club with guns via 80's glam rock. All the lovely Jes Goodwin-style spiky hair and studs and skintight leather, none of the pointy-eared space-elf nonsense - what's not to love?

New Ratskins, Enforcers and new Wyrds would be nice!

I'm rather looking forward to what they do with the Delaque and Van Saar gangs - I think the Van Saar especially could be very interesting, with their new "poisoned by tech" thing - maybe more scrawny, hairless mutant freaks than the ponytailed neckbeard dune cosplayers they used to be

I echo the call for female gangers in other gangs.

The only one I can think that wouldn't need them would Goliath. The amount of steroids and stims involved there would likely make the difference purely a matter of having to look in their trousers. Also, genhancement and vat grown. If Vat Grown, are they functionally genderless? Hmmm.

Anyways.

I can shed a tiny bit of light on the Van Saar look. They're at least at concept stage, even though no artwork was shown off at the Open Day. They're scheduled after Orlock, so I suspect we'll be seeing them quite soon.

As for the look? GW Chap (who's name I can't remember I'm afraid. But is part of the Necromunda team) said it's somewhere between the Stilsuits of the originals, and interlocking armour playing of Infinity, all done in a 40k style.

I suspect we may also see things like limb and spine bracing on some Van Saar, to represent exoskeletal support? But that's only a suspicion.

Going forward? Here's my vague wishlist.....

1. More tiles. All the tiles. Tiiiiiillllleeesssssss. They a simple and straight forward way to expand the Zone Mortalis version - and of course support it. Community Wise, I'd hate to see the tunnel fighting of the boxed game become sneered at.

2. More Sector Mechanicus terrain. I've hope we'll see more, given the Plasma Things are currently of a unique height. More at that level, and we can get very interesting 3D boards out of it

3. Something akin to the Blood Bowl Almanac, including FAQ and Errata - but with that bit made available for download. This could include rejigged injury tables etc.

4. Totally with you on the Brat Gangs. So much more interesting in scope than Spyrers - and hopefully less attractive to TFG, He Who Ruins Campaigns. The concept of them zipping about on jetbikes excites me in ways I thought only a woman could. And frankly, I can't wait to kick a Brat's head in and steal said bike. Oh yes.

5. The blending of Confrontation and Necromunda to continue. I'm really, really enjoying it.

6. Gang Wars to be done when they've got the content for one. I'd much rather it becomes sporadic but essential than scheduled and contentless.

The first thing we need is options to fill out the existing weapons. There's currently only one sprue of Escher and one sprue of Goliaths.

This leads to the problem, for Escher, that while there's two plasma pistols and two autopistols they're all lefthanded and so there needs to be some converting done if you fancy dual wielding autopistols for example (something which sounds quite good with twin guns blazing). This is further compounded by the fact that only one of the two swords per sprue is right handed and the other left handed which means having 4 sword and pistol girls means either converting or using the less powerful (but more reliable) laspistol instead. The poses are also somewhat limited as all the arms are shaped so they only really fit in one position (and sometimes only on some of the torsos), which while it makes the sculpts look amazing means that they're all going to look somewhat similar to everybody elses. Another problem is the leader model and weaponry. The coat is partially sculpted to the arms of the leader which means that if you want to use the shock whip on a model without the coat, you can't. Same goes for the bolter/needler.

So for Escher I'd like to see the following:

More left and right handed options for the various weapons, preferably in different poses.
A shock whip and bolter/needler that don't have parts of the coat sculpted to them.
An alternate leader model with different options (Power Sword and Plasma Pistol seems popular).
More hair options.
Scabbarded and holstered weapons, such as swords, the various pistols and spare rifles (at 5 credits each even CC Escher are going to end up being given Lasguns for backup and flexibility).

Then there's the additional weapon options. At the moment most options are missing from the trading post, so hopefully this will also get rectified fairly quickly. But even before we get to standard imperial weapons that aren't currently available (Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Flamers, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns etc.) there are a couple of weapons that are available that it would be nice to have official weapon options for such as the Grenade Launcher and Combat Shotgun.


The Goliath's are actually worse off. There's only one of each weapon on their sprue and it feels like there wasn't many options for the right hand (Grenade Launcher, Plasma/Strubber and Spudjacker) Most of the weapons are two handed and there's only one ordinary pistol per sprue. One weapon from their house list is actually missing (the Axe) and most of their weapons seem to be two handed. Again there's no holstered or spare weapons which could be used to add options to the Goliaths. This means that without heavy converting most Goliath gangs are going to end up looking very samey. Their house weapon list is also lacking in basic weaponry which doesn't help (no autoguns or standard shotguns). The Goliath models are probably even more limited in there poses than the Escher. The leader of house Goliath is also a bit indistinguishable from the rest of the gang.

So for Goliath:

More left and right handed options.
New poses.
A more distinctive leader model. Bigger mohawk, more armour, a cloak maybe. Something to make him stand out.
All the basic weapons and Close combat weapons that they're currently missing (lasgun, autogun, shotgun, axe).

I'm inclined to agree with Trafalgar Law on the limited poseability/ lack of options in the existing sprues - I'm assembling my Goliaths and I've had to do some somewhat involved conversions to manage WYSIWYG for a non-standard gang. The Goliath kit seems worse than the Escher one in terms of convertability/options - very limiting if you don't want to build the starter gang!

So upgrade packs for weapon options would be grand.

I would like to see the Ratskins come back too - they could be really cool.

Hoping we get new
Kal Jerico + Scabbs
Belladonna (the new version in the rulebook)
Enforcers or Arbites
Ogryn Bodyguard
Sniper (Ratling or Ranger)

Agreed on non Escher females. A wiry but weak sniper type guy or similar could be fun for Escher, or a special character that is not damaged and escaped from their territory.

The artwork that is in the books is fantastic and very inspirational and I hope she (apparently she is Rachel from Forgeworld according to FB) does much more and special characters that translate into models. Really looking forward to her take on other gangs, Scavies spyers and ratskins.

Firstly, has anyone compared the tiles to the Forge World Zone Mortalis tiles? The FW site says the ZM tiles are 12" across, but the tiles in Necromunda Unerhive are closer to 11.5"

As well as new tiles, overlays to add other environmental effects and the like would be interesting.

Miniatures-wise, yes, more wimmin. Escher with toned-down hairdos might just about work as Orlocks, but other than that, nah. I want to see more of the hired guns, and the non-combat guys like cooks, etc. Give us a Squat, Forge World. You know you want to!

I don't think we should see any female Goliaths.

Orlock/Van Saar/Delaque, yeah, they should be there 100%.

And Juve packs from FW, with, like, 4 different Juve minis for each gang with modular hands/weapons (like the Fanatic ranges they did for the Orlocks/Goliaths/Reds/Ratskins/Scavvies).

Sci-fi plague zombies would be nice too. As would the old special characters.

EDIT: A bestiary like in Outlanders & some sci-fi beasties would be nice to, like some gargantuan mutant sump spiders would be great.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


(like the Fanatic ranges they did for the Orlocks/Goliaths/Reds/Ratskins/Scavvies).

But ideally not terrible sculpts

I wouldn't mind seeing 'Sector Packs'. Kind of like the Bad Zone tiles, but perhaps with additional environmental rules?

Long as all the expansion rules are optional, they're just pleasing colour rather than mercenary business.

Terrible sculpts? The Reds are fantastic.

Enforcers....

There’s so much potential for some really cool models. I hope they don’t overdo it though...

I actually don't want female Goliaths either, same as I don't want male Eschers. Those two houses are kind of centered around those themes.

But house Orlock was imo the one of the main chances they had to add more plastic females and that ship has clearly sailed. So i'm not too worried about that anymore. I would rather the models stay with interchangeable bitz and plastic. The BB elven union team tried adding head swaps and boob plate to male bodies and it did not work out...so i'm gonna pass on more chicks in Necromunda for now unless they are resin.

Honestly my main issue with the game right now is actually the rules and how poorly thought out and organized they are. Having tried to play the game the other day it is not fun to learn, wasn't so or either of us new players. And it involves a lot of flipping through the pages, also not friendly to alcoholics with short term memory issues.

At the end of the day though I like house Cawdor a lot, so i'm holding out for them. There is something about medieval religious psychos that reminds me of the reasons I started liking 40k. Recently that gothic medieval style but futuristic has been lacking.

Today Andy Hoare is going to speak on twitch about the future of necromunda. Maybe he says something interesting or more information than in the warhammer fest.

If someone can watch it and post here...

That would be cool. Sadly, I'm usually at work when the Twitch stuff comes on!

Actually, if someone's going to watch it, how about making yourself useful and ask for non-Escher female gangers?

I'm pretty ambivalent on the other female ganger front, I like chunky characters and female models are typically slight. However, I would like a big fat matronly character perhaps equipped with a rolling pin :-p

I really like the Beastman bounty hunter and would like to see more models in this 'waifs and strays' range. Perhaps a spire dilettante with their lethal butler in the mould of the esteemable Willikins from The Night's Watch series!

 Kroem wrote:
I'm pretty ambivalent on the other female ganger front, I like chunky characters and female models are typically slight. However, I would like a big fat matronly character perhaps equipped with a rolling pin :-p

I really like the Beastman bounty hunter and would like to see more models in this 'waifs and strays' range. Perhaps a spire dilettante with their lethal butler in the mould of the esteemable Willikins from The Night's Watch series!

I mean that's exactly why I'm interested to see what this fabled female Goliath test sculpt looks like; whether in film or on the page or in art men tend to have a broader range of "acceptable" body types and levels of attractiveness than women do, which gives a creator access to a bigger range of easy "visual archetypes" and so tends to lead to a lot of the more interesting characters - especially "supporting" characters that tend to rely on visual/aesthetic cues to quickly establish themselves in the viewer's mind - being male. Which is a shame just for the sake of variety if nothing else - "like X, but Y" is how most good ideas get started, and closing off a lot of "like X, but female" lines of thought means we must surely miss out on a lot of interesting stuff.

Like, one of the big things in nuEscher is that they "peacock" a lot, they love to display their wealth(and the superiority it they believe it implies they have over other, less matriarchal Houses) with ostentatious displays of offworld finery and luxury. Now, if that hugely Medieval attitude hasn't led to at least a few Henry VIII-style morbidly-obese Escher leaders who "show off" their wealth by gorging themselves on offworld delicacies I'd be surprised - some bloated, gout-ridden matriarch wobbling around the underhive with the aid of bionics/suspensors/vatgrown extra muscles etc Baron Harkonnen-style sounds to me like it would fit right in to the setting, but it's significantly less likely to happen because we're not supposed to want to see women depicted in that way, which is a shame IMO.

I'm also not sure I agree with maleness actually being a defining characteristic of House Goliath. It's certainly the way a lot of folk think of them, likely due to the "battle of the sexes" presentation in their rivalry with Escher reinforced by the sausagefest that was the old model range Escher-aside, but I don't recall reading anything that actually stated they're *all* vat grown and *all* male, and there's certainly nothing that explicitly marginalises female Goliath as part of the house in the same way as there is with male Escher.

In terms of alternate ganger models, whilst I'm disappointed we're not getting mixed gender gangs from the outset, it's not to say they won't be released at a later date.

The biggest difference I can see with this edition is that a Gang can be absolutely any size - you simply select a few to form a Crew for a given encounter.

That to me means I'll be wanting greater model variety than ever before. So once they've got the basic Gangs out the way, that's when I truly expect property diversity.

And yes, a Big Bertha style Escher leader could be cool.

I'd love to see:

- More women for most gangs (and maybe just one for Goliaths)

- Multiple Juve models for each gang. Preferably a small multi-part kit with lots of options.

Those are my two big wants right now.

Andy Hoare is on Warhammer Live today discussing the Orlocks and the future of Necromunda. Get an exclusive glimpse at what's next for your gang (and beyond!)



I hope someone can post what he says


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Stat changes for the members compared to the legacy rules, the leader and champion are both cheaper but the juve and ganger got more expensive.

They don't appear to have much choice for weapons when starting out

Could you rename this topic to something more general? Like we could discuss all things Necromunda 2017, not just models and wishlists.

For example:

After having built a bunch of sector mechanicus, notice how weird they made the terrain in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmnNybAu6Tw

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

1. More tiles. All the tiles. Tiiiiiillllleeesssssss. They a simple and straight forward way to expand the Zone Mortalis version - and of course support it. Community Wise, I'd hate to see the tunnel fighting of the boxed game become sneered at.

Yes yes and yes to more tiles. Even if your not into Necromunda they are great alternative to using the FW tiles for 40k/HH Zone Mortalis games. I'd even be up for having the existing tiles available separately from the boxed game for more options and wear and tear replacements.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In terms of alternate ganger models, whilst I'm disappointed we're not getting mixed gender gangs from the outset, it's not to say they won't be released at a later date.

The biggest difference I can see with this edition is that a Gang can be absolutely any size - you simply select a few to form a Crew for a given encounter.

That to me means I'll be wanting greater model variety than ever before. So once they've got the basic Gangs out the way, that's when I truly expect property diversity.

And yes, a Big Bertha style Escher leader could be cool.

One of the old Mordheim Sisters of Sigmar Sisters Superior had that sort of build. Unlike every other model in the range



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baxx wrote:
Could you rename this topic to something more general? Like we could discuss all things Necromunda 2017, not just models and wishlists.

For example:

After having built a bunch of sector mechanicus, notice how weird they made the terrain in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmnNybAu6Tw

That's the same stuff as was used in the battle shown on the Warhammer TV Twitch channel the other week, as well as in December's White Dwarf. I think they just quickly laid out some pieces to display the Orlocks on, rather than grouping them together into a coherent layout.

I add another voice to the call for female non-Escher gangers. In addition, I would really like to see civilians*. Armourers, cooks, shopkeepers, mould farmers, mechanics. Necromunda is the big opportunity to show a slice of life of the Imperium in model form. They could easily be given roles in raids or bounty hunts, as valuable persons/innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire. I'd love a "civvies" plastic sprue, but I'd settle for resin.


*Civilian in underhive terms, I'm sure just about everybody carries a pistol or knife, even if they're not gangers proper.

 Haighus wrote:
I add another voice to the call for female non-Escher gangers. In addition, I would really like to see civilians*. Armourers, cooks, shopkeepers, mould farmers, mechanics. Necromunda is the big opportunity to show a slice of life of the Imperium in model form. They could easily be given roles in raids or bounty hunts, as valuable persons/innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire. I'd love a "civvies" plastic sprue, but I'd settle for resin.


*Civilian in underhive terms, I'm sure just about everybody carries a pistol or knife, even if they're not gangers proper.

Oh we're definitely getting those as "Hangers On", on the stream yesterday they were discussing the team's hope they'll be able to make a Ratling Cook with a Power Ladle & chef's hat Though sadly all they had to say about Juve models was "eventually" with what I thought was a strong implication that would be after most or all of the core House plastics are out, which is a real shame. Juves is exactly the sort of thing they should be putting out in the gaps between plastic releases to keep people engaged.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I add another voice to the call for female non-Escher gangers. In addition, I would really like to see civilians*. Armourers, cooks, shopkeepers, mould farmers, mechanics. Necromunda is the big opportunity to show a slice of life of the Imperium in model form. They could easily be given roles in raids or bounty hunts, as valuable persons/innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire. I'd love a "civvies" plastic sprue, but I'd settle for resin.


*Civilian in underhive terms, I'm sure just about everybody carries a pistol or knife, even if they're not gangers proper.

Oh we're definitely getting those as "Hangers On", on the stream yesterday they were discussing the team's hope they'll be able to make a Ratling Cook with a Power Ladle & chef's hat Though sadly all they had to say about Juve models was "eventually" with what I thought was a strong implication that would be after most or all of the core House plastics are out, which is a real shame. Juves is exactly the sort of thing they should be putting out in the gaps between plastic releases to keep people engaged.

Excellent, I look forward to seeing what crazy models they produce I'd also like to see civilian scatter terrain and vehicles, preferably in plastic.

Oh, and another endorsement for Brat Gangs to replace Spyrers.

As I've said before, I've only ever seen (in my limited experience) Spyrers attract 'The Wrong Sort' - those who put victory above all else.

Now, there's games where that's welcome and part of it, but Necromunda isn't one of them in my book. It's about building up a group narrative, earning and clearing grudges. Not for someone to turn up with the Super Gang that doesn't even take part in the post-battle sequence beyond rolling for injury.

Brats however? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Give them superior equipment and weapons, sure, but keep them 'normal'. Let them take and hold territory. Let them go to the trading post. That's a concept I can get behind.

Why do they have to 'replace' Spyrers. You make it sounds like they are mutually exclusive.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why do they have to 'replace' Spyrers. You make it sounds like they are mutually exclusive.

I think it's more that folk would *like* them to replace Spyrers. Brats are - IMO, obviously - a much more interesting take on "hive nobles hunt the poor for fun" than Spyrers, and given the amount of hassle it would be to wrangle up a set of Spyrer rules that balances out their power level(personally I don't actually think you can, not while preserving the reasons their fans like them - there's just too great a power disparity, it's like trying to make Space Marines work in the Underhive) why not just replace the latter with the former. Maybe you could stick in some toned-down reimaginings of Hunting Rigs as late-campaign gear for Brats Champions & Boss or something, but meh, if not it wouldn't be a great loss for my money. I never played a game against Spyrers that was fun, or played in a campaign that included Spyrers that had people clamouring for them to come back next time.

What he said

Just personal preference.

I’d make Spyrers hired guns for Brat gangs, myself. With certain restrictions. Both concepts are cool, so I don’t want to see them go.

But I really want Brats on jetbike models.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just personal preference.

I wanna plastic Yeld!!!

(/selfishness)

Fair point is fair. Well countered!

I never liked the Spyrers or Pit Slaves, in our campaign they were usually a second gang for one of the players to try out. They were usually wiped out in a game or two

I like the idea and conversion potential of pit slave gangs - but they do tend to end up as Spartacus knock-offs!

I do think that maybe Spyrers make more sense if you have someone acting as a GM/"Arbitrator" - so if one gang gets a run of good luck and gets a bit big for their boots, wham! Spyrer attack!

The issues I had with Spyrers were:
They're cool, so people want to play them. They're also powerful, and you only need a few miniatures, so they're cheap to collect and easy to get painted. This has meant in the past that half the prospective players in a campaign want to play Spyrers. I ended up saying I'd really like the campaign to feature a majority of House gangs, to persuade people to use their other gangs instead.

They ignore a lot of the post-game sequence that I liked from Necromunda - no income, no territories, no trading post.

But, back to the wishlisting, and perhaps a connection to the Gorkamorka thread ... The Orlocks apparently have lots of transport convoys between mining outposts and the Hives; plenty of caravan guards in bikes and other vehicles. An Ash Wastes setting book in late 2018 or 2019, and then a White Dwarf article with rules for Orks sounds like a plan.

Also, if we see Enforcers from the other hive - the one suffering from democracy - could we see them perhaps get PDF auxiliaries? It's be nice to see the Necromundan 8th represented in miniature form again. The classic 1st edition Guardsmen have become the Cadian miniatures over the years, but there's the Jes Goodwin pic of a trooper with closed helmet and greatcoat and "old Escher"-style lasgun from 2nd ed 40k that's been waiting for a miniature for 20 years.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Also, if we see Enforcers from the other hive - the one suffering from democracy - could we see them perhaps get PDF auxiliaries? It's be nice to see the Necromundan 8th represented in miniature form again. The classic 1st edition Guardsmen have become the Cadian miniatures over the years, but there's the Jes Goodwin pic of a trooper with closed helmet and greatcoat and "old Escher"-style lasgun from 2nd ed 40k that's been waiting for a miniature for 20 years.

This guy, right?



Yeah, I'd love to see plastics (or well, any material) for those guys. Vostroyans are almost there, but still I like that one a lot more.

Yeah, him.

Let's see here, in no particular order:

- Arbites / Enforcers
- Genestealer Cults / Covens
- More Hired Guns (if only for the background - I never thought I'd see a beastman 40K figure)
- Female figs for all gangs
- More scenarios
- Alternate campaign types that are not just about accumulation

I'd like to see a plastic, multipose "generics" kit. This can be the same kit as the Civilians mentioned earlier, but with more weapon options. I'd like to be able to run a gang that doesn't conform to the aesthetics of any of the houses if I should so please . Also hoping we get a house-less gang type or types...

In the past, the Catachans and Empire Militia were go-to pieces for Ash Waste gang; would be nice to see something refreshing that.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
I'd like to see a plastic, multipose "generics" kit. This can be the same kit as the Civilians mentioned earlier, but with more weapon options. I'd like to be able to run a gang that doesn't conform to the aesthetics of any of the houses if I should so please . Also hoping we get a house-less gang type or types...

In the past, the Catachans and Empire Militia were go-to pieces for Ash Waste gang; would be nice to see something refreshing that.

M.

Couldn't agree more! A generic "40K humans with autoguns" kit is badly needed and can serve in many capacities from IG regiments, to chaos cultists, to GS cultist to Necromunda gang.

I'm thinking that Pig Iron''s offerings might fit nicely here. If tge GW Van Saar are rubbush then Kolony Scavengers will be nice subs, and the Feral for ash waste nomads.

 Flinty wrote:
I'm thinking that Pig Iron''s offerings might fit nicely here. If tge GW Van Saar are rubbush then Kolony Scavengers will be nice subs, and the Feral for ash waste nomads.

I did have an eye on the Ferals for Cowdor, I'll admit.

M.

 Haighus wrote:
I'd also like to see civilian scatter terrain and vehicles, preferably in plastic.

They've already got the Goliath truck. As for the rest, you'll probably need to convert your own.

 Breotan wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I'd also like to see civilian scatter terrain and vehicles, preferably in plastic.

They've already got the Goliath truck. As for the rest, you'll probably need to convert your own.

That's for GSC though

M.

 Breotan wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I'd also like to see civilian scatter terrain and vehicles, preferably in plastic.

They've already got the Goliath truck. As for the rest, you'll probably need to convert your own.

Don't forget these.

Ooooooooh.

Reckon I’m gonna need me that Secutarii Hoplite set I’ve got kicking about, a Goliath Rock Grinder and some Hybrids...

Then, when I’ve made my ‘container shops’, shamelessly stealing someone else’s concept to do so, I can make it a proper caravan, replete with well armed and armoured caravan Guards. Mostly just a set dressing, partly because reasons. Could also make for an interesting scenario - the sort where a single gang would get its head kicked in, but two or three working in tandem might just pull off the heist.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ooooooooh.

Reckon I’m gonna need me that Secutarii Hoplite set I’ve got kicking about, a Goliath Rock Grinder and some Hybrids...

Then, when I’ve made my ‘container shops’, shamelessly stealing someone else’s concept to do so, I can make it a proper caravan, replete with well armed and armoured caravan Guards. Mostly just a set dressing, partly because reasons. Could also make for an interesting scenario - the sort where a single gang would get its head kicked in, but two or three working in tandem might just pull off the heist.

With appropriate opportunities for any of the player gangs to shank their "allies" in the back and try to claim all the booty for themselves, of course


EDIT: Oh aye, finally remembered to change the thread title as requested.

Oh absolutely! Where's the fun if there's not backstabbing and betrayal?

We're The Head Smashing Gang, not the Get Along Gang

Though watching a single gang try to take out the Rock Grinder (pretty much just port it's stats over from 40k) could be a right giggle. Spesh if the idiots choose to stand right in front of it.....(no, you won't be rolling on the injury table. Go directly to The Emperor. Do not Pass Go, do not collect £200)

Even funnier if an 'ally' accidentally shoves you off a walkway into it's path.....squish!

I deliberately built my Goliath so I could "civilianise" it. I'm also tempted to de-militarise and "un-lighten" a Tauros scout car. Perhaps have it up on bricks.

That could be cool!

I really want to aim for an 'inhabited underhive'. Just little signs of inhabitants beyond the Gangers. Things like the caravan are major projects (and not without expense!). But I can also do much simpler things.

Think 28mm sleeping bags, industrial tools broken and left, or otherwise mysteriously abandoned. All about building up that atmosphere with 'nice little touches'.

"Mysteriously abandoned" heh. I imagine that the underhive civvies have a well honed sense of when to bug out when the gangs are about to start playing games with each other

Well, the odd blood splatter too

Ooooooooooooooooooh. Could get creative with that Manky Nurgle Goo Paint....splash out a puddle of it, and just have a pair of boots.......

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the odd blood splatter too

Ooooooooooooooooooh. Could get creative with that Manky Nurgle Goo Paint....splash out a puddle of it, and just have a pair of boots.......

That's just totally unrealistic. No way that a self respecting ganger is going to leave a perfectly serviceable set of boots just lying around, especially after they have gone to the trouble of "encouraging" the previous owner to give thme up

Accidents can happen you know! Maybe it was like that when they got here!

Here's two of my civvie/industrial vehicles.

Those are both extremely shiny. Thanks for sharing (and go do some more please! )

Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Correct.

As I’ve not played, and am very much a tactile, experience based learner, can you still ‘stitch’ your shots across a group of enemies?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I’ve not played, and am very much a tactile, experience based learner, can you still ‘stitch’ your shots across a group of enemies?

Yeah, any hits beyond the first can be transferred to other targets within 3" as long as they are in LOS and wouldn't have been any harder to hit.

Sounds a lot like the original Necromunda rules when the sustained fire dice first came in. Nice.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I deliberately built my Goliath so I could "civilianise" it. I'm also tempted to de-militarise and "un-lighten" a Tauros scout car. Perhaps have it up on bricks.

Make it up as the Robin Reliant Pattern of the Taurox.

Baxx wrote:
Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Yes, but it is also limited. You can't get a number of extra hits more than the little number beside the rapid fire trait (so far, 1 extra hit), if I have been reading those rules correctly.

 emptyhat wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I deliberately built my Goliath so I could "civilianise" it. I'm also tempted to de-militarise and "un-lighten" a Tauros scout car. Perhaps have it up on bricks.

Make it up as the Robin Reliant Pattern of the Taurox.

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Yes, but it is also limited. You can't get a number of extra hits more than the little number beside the rapid fire trait (so far, 1 extra hit), if I have been reading those rules correctly.

Rapid Fire (X), X is the number of firepower dice you roll. So an Orlock heavy stubber is Rapid Fire (2), roll two dice getting between 2 and 6 shots

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Yes, but it is also limited. You can't get a number of extra hits more than the little number beside the rapid fire trait (so far, 1 extra hit), if I have been reading those rules correctly.

You must be reading some other game, there's no rational way to come to this conclusion actually reading Necromunda

 lord_blackfang wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Yes, but it is also limited. You can't get a number of extra hits more than the little number beside the rapid fire trait (so far, 1 extra hit), if I have been reading those rules correctly.

You must be reading some other game, there's no rational way to come to this conclusion actually reading Necromunda

^what he said. The number is just the amount of firepower dice you roll...

I've tried to get an overview of the rules, it's not easy!

So far we have 3 sources:

-Rulebook
-Gangwar 1
-Legends pdf

Rulebook has different skills not available in Gangwar1. All 3 versions have different weapon stats from each other. They have different trait rules from each other. They all have traits and other content not described anywhere.

Also, I have a question about the Mighty Leap skill (Agility):

"The fighter can attempt to leap across gaps that are no wider than their Movement characteristic. If the gap is wider than half their Movement, apply a -1 modifier to the Initiative test."

Can anyone explain this? I don't get it. What makes this different (or better) than normal leap rules?

Has anyone heard if they are rereleasing the original figures? I want a bunch of Escher and a few juves from some other gangs

 Tyr13 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Wait - the new Rapid Fire - Firepower... You roll to hit once, and all shots from Firepower dice depend on that roll? All or nothing?

Yes, but it is also limited. You can't get a number of extra hits more than the little number beside the rapid fire trait (so far, 1 extra hit), if I have been reading those rules correctly.

You must be reading some other game, there's no rational way to come to this conclusion actually reading Necromunda

^what he said. The number is just the amount of firepower dice you roll...

Every game i find something I missed XD

xerxeshavelock wrote:
Has anyone heard if they are rereleasing the original figures? I want a bunch of Escher and a few juves from some other gangs

Doubt it. Unless there's a Made To Order sometime in the future.

The only "Wishlisting" I have is for a damned FAQ.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
Has anyone heard if they are rereleasing the original figures? I want a bunch of Escher and a few juves from some other gangs

I suspect (and there's no evidence for it) that we won't see such a thing until the 6 House Gangs are all on the shelf again.

As I discovered going over all my old stuff, I have almost none of the original Goliaths (the Juves and Leaders, yes, 1 or 2 gangers) and I'm missing the original heavies for the Orlocks.

I'd like to get them. The original Orlock Heavy Bolter is a fantastic mini.

Was also a paradigm shifting sculpt. It was the reaction to the Orlock HB that lead directly to Devastators not carrying HW on their shoulders!

Do tell?

Was mentioned in an old WD if memory serves.

But Devastators used to look like this...

Then came this bloke...

Then her

Before we get to the now modern style of Space Marine Heavy Weapon.

That explains the odd look of the heavy bolter in Chaos gate then. I had entirely forgotten that's what they used to look like.

I am wondering if the Escher models and the new Elf bloodbowl female models are compatable - if so have some conversions in mind.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Before we get to the now modern style of Space Marine Heavy Weapon.

Nice summary there! I never got to buy the devastator set but had many of the missile launchers that was given as a free treat. Good thing they developed that design!

FW have produced a nice remake of the original designs though- I think they've done a really good job. Referred to as the Sol pattern for the Heavy bolter at least.

Are there any campaign missions using the Zone Mortalis tiles?

I looked in the rule book, and those missions does not seem compatible with the campaign of Gangwar 1.

Are there any easy adjustments to make them fit? What I'm missing are the rewards (XP, Reputation, Credits).

Baxx wrote:
Are there any campaign missions using the Zone Mortalis tiles?

I looked in the rule book, and those missions does not seem compatible with the campaign of Gangwar 1.

Are there any easy adjustments to make them fit? What I'm missing are the rewards (XP, Reputation, Credits).

All the missions in Gang War can be played either way.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

All the missions in Gang War can be played either way.

Ok, so the missions in the rulebook are garbage as well as it's skill lists, equipment lists and price costs.

When looking at the cards from the starter box, all cards seems to be compatible with the dumbed down demo version of Necromunda. It looks like the 2 House decks share the same compatibility.

What are the chance of seeing some proper new cards which is interacts with the Gang War 1 rules?

Missions in the rulebook aren't garbage. They're just more missions.

It's one of the things Necromunda always needed - more missions!

And the rules in the box aren't 'dumbed down'. They're the rules.

More missions? How can they be more missions if they aren't compatible with gang war 1?

If the rules in the box aren't 'dumbed down', how come they are simpler, less complex and less interesting than the conflicting rules from gang war1?

What "conflicting" rules?

The missions in the rulebook are compatible with Gang War 1. As presented, they're for Underhive scenery layouts rather than Sector Mechanicus, but that's perfectly fine. I don't see anything in the scenario descriptions that prevent you from playing them on SM scenery if you'd rather do that.

Speaking of scenarios, I threw this together

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What "conflicting" rules?

Oh boy, you never realized much of the contents in the Rulebook is incompatible with Gang war 1?

Baxx wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

All the missions in Gang War can be played either way.

Ok, so the missions in the rulebook are garbage as well as it's skill lists, equipment lists and price costs.

When looking at the cards from the starter box, all cards seems to be compatible with the dumbed down demo version of Necromunda. It looks like the 2 House decks share the same compatibility.

What are the chance of seeing some proper new cards which is interacts with the Gang War 1 rules?

So don’t use them?

It’ll be a sad day in the Underhive if there’s no house ruling,

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The missions in the rulebook are compatible with Gang War 1. As presented, they're for Underhive scenery layouts rather than Sector Mechanicus, but that's perfectly fine. I don't see anything in the scenario descriptions that prevent you from playing them on SM scenery if you'd rather do that.

Rally? I'm not talking about 3d/2d Terrain. Gang War1 and it's missions support both. I'm talking about the game rules.

So, in a campaign, how many missions could you afford to play from rule book? You'll get Victory Points sure, they have no value in a campaign. They are a lose-lose investment for both gangs, even if they are strictly "compatible".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So don’t use them?

It’ll be a sad day in the Underhive if there’s no house ruling,

Agreed, they can work with a few house rules adding income, xp, reputation and turf size to the missions. I'm just amazed that GW would bother releasing this the same day as Gang War 1 and still not make it compatible. The rulebook just includes so much demo junk, dumbed down garbage that needs to be fixed by the players to be usable.

Ah, yes. The scenarios in Gang War 1 seem to be replacements for those in the rulebook (or at least, revisions, to add the campaign-specific bits; Stand-off is basically Tunnel Skirmish with campaign rewards).

On the other hand, it's trivial to adapt those in the rulebook for campaign play.

The boxed set is designed and intended to be completely stand alone - a complete gaming experience that you don’t need to expand any further.

That’s why the full gang rules aren’t included, and thus affects mission rewards

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Ah, yes. The scenarios in Gang War 1 seem to be replacements for those in the rulebook (or at least, revisions, to add the campaign-specific bits; Stand-off is basically Tunnel Skirmish with campaign rewards).

On the other hand, it's trivial to adapt those in the rulebook for campaign play.

And when releasing the rulebook missions the same day as Gang War 1, that should be trivial for GW to adapt too.

I have a question for the 'Deadlock' Tactics card found in the Goliath deck:

"DEADLOCK

Zone Mortalis

Play this card at the start of any round.

Choose a closed door anywhere on the board. For the duration of this round, the door cannot be opened in any way.

This card can only be used in Sector Mechanicus battles. If it is randomly drawn in a Zone Mortalis battle, discard it and draw a new one."


Should Sector Mechanicus and Zone Mortalis be swapped in this text?

They already did. Looking again, the scenarios in Gang War are the scenarios from Underhive, with campaign rewards and a little more flexibility in setup and crew choice. So, what's your problem?

Gang War 2 will have some more, I think.

Other than that, what do you think are the other rules conflicts?

GW made the commercial decision to rease a stand alone boxed game with expansions. That doesn't make the rules in the box dumbed down. They just didn't need the advanced add on rules from Gang War in the box.

Basically everyone is arguing exactly the same side of the argument just now.

It's like how Blood Bowl and Deathzone were released as separate products in the '90s.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
They already did. Looking again, the scenarios in Gang War are the scenarios from Underhive, with campaign rewards and a little more flexibility in setup and crew choice. So, what's your problem?

Gang War 2 will have some more, I think.

Other than that, what do you think are the other rules conflicts?

The problem? Initially I simply said that these pages were garbage. The problem with that is that they are 'dead' pages, things you always have to ignore when turning the pages in the rulebook. What if those pages were summary tables of Injury, Trading Post, Weapon profiles and costs instead? Wow, that'd be amazing!

After that, the discussion continued when someone replied that, hey - what's wrong with more missions? Where I simply stated that these missions weren't really compatible, or would always be a lose-lose situation for both gangs regardless of the outcome. There's nothing to gain from them in a campaign. In which some one replied that it would be a sad day without house rules in Necromunda. Sure, I agree with that. But do we really need house rules on incompatible rules released the same day? Couldn't this been done in a better way, keeping the pages in the rulebook relevant from the get-go? On which some one replied - but hey, these missions are basically the same as those in Gang War 1, except for some modifications.

In which case I reply - then why is the "more missions" argument valid, if they are the same? On which I wonder - why do we house rule missions which already have official 'house ruled' versions by GW in Gang War 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
GW made the commercial decision to rease a stand alone boxed game with expansions. That doesn't make the rules in the box dumbed down. They just didn't need the advanced add on rules from Gang War in the box.

Basically everyone is arguing exactly the same side of the argument just now.

We have 3 different rules set:

1) Rulebook without advanced section
2) Rulebook with advanced section
3 Gang War 1

Out of these 3, nr 1) and nr 2) will never be played. Not now, not ever. They are, as you say it, without the advanced rules in Gang War 1. Let me show you how dumbed down this is:

-Lack of weaponsand equipment (only 15-16 items per house!)
-Lack of skills (only 11 skills per house!)
-No campaign (the essence of Necromunda!)

What are we left with? Dumbed down demo version of the game, never to be picked up or played ever.

I've played several games now, and not yet touched Gang War. If I were playing in a store environment, "pick-up" games against strangers, that's what I'd continue to do. I don't think a full campaign using the Gang War rules is obligatory.

I doubt I'll ever play more than one game against any given opponent using the basic rules, but fair enough; that's what they're for.

Interesting, I've never encountered that point of view before. When people are showing up with Meltaguns, Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Bolters, Boltguns, Chainswords, Plasma guns, power axes, Orlocks, Delaque, Van Saar, Cawdor and Outlanders gangs, you'll simply no longer be able to use those rules.

Enjoy it while you can, it won't last many months.

Baxx wrote:
What are we left with? Dumbed down demo version of the game, never to be picked up or played ever.

What the feth are you even talking about? It's not a 'dumbed down demo'. The rules in the rulebook are the rules. Gang War 1 is expansion.

What is so difficult about this to grasp?

The rules in the rulebook are not the rules in gang war1! Not for weapons. Not for equipment. Not for skills. Not for scenarios. To put it in your words: That's what the feth I'm talking about. I'm talking about the parts in the rule book that are incompatible with Gang War 1.

If you included the 4 rows above the one you quoted me on, you could have noticed.

I've just combined the two books into one single document, and let me tell you, there were a ton of garbage that I had to cut out from the rulebook - stuff that simply does not combine with gang war 1. Have you summarized the two books and looked at the differences?

Leafing through the Underhive book, I estimate 27 of the rules pages are relevant for Gang War campaign games and 31 are not, barring the odd weapon profile or trait that's inexplicably missing from Gang War.

Baxx wrote:
The rules in the rulebook are not the rules in gang war1! Not for weapons. Not for equipment. Not for skills. Not for scenarios. To put it in your words: That's what the feth I'm talking about. I'm talking about the parts in the rule book that are incompatible with Gang War 1.

If you included the 4 rows above the one you quoted me on, you could have noticed.

I've just combined the two books into one single document, and let me tell you, there were a ton of garbage that I had to cut out from the rulebook - stuff that simply does not combine with gang war 1. Have you summarized the two books and looked at the differences?

The way you play the game, the only way, is in the base rulebook. Gang war adds a campaign mechanic, how to deal with multilevel terrain, and more skills. That's it. All those extra weapons are for the campaign. They don't go to a starting gang

stratigo wrote:

The way you play the game, the only way, is in the base rulebook. Gang war adds a campaign mechanic, how to deal with multilevel terrain, and more skills. That's it. All those extra weapons are for the campaign. They don't go to a starting gang

Well, there's 3 different ways to play the game, 2 of which are in the base rulebook and 1 is in parts of the rulebook and Gang War 1. Those extra weapons can perfectly well go to a starting gang. I've already gone through alot of the differences and the incompatible differences.

The only way I'm ever gonna play the game is the 3rd option: less than half of the rulebook + Gang War1 (and any future add-ons). In the long run, option 1 and 2 won't survive. they won't receive any future development. It's a project dead from the start.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Leafing through the Underhive book, I estimate 27 of the rules pages are relevant for Gang War campaign games and 31 are not, barring the odd weapon profile or trait that's inexplicably missing from Gang War.

Thank you!

So, I never played Necromunda the first time around, and Lexicanum is surprisingly thin on the ground for background info about it.

Can anyone tell me more about Ratskins, and how they used to be incorporated into the game? From what I can see, they don't really interact with the Hivers at all, except for a few outcasts. Were there playable gangs of outcasts in the past, or just the occassional Ratskin tracker hired gun?

I feel like if they were brought back, they should be made to be a little less reclusive, perhaps being more aggressive and attacking Hivers more often? Instead of avoiding them at all costs, which seems to be the way they were described previously from the little I have gleaned on the wiki.

The Ratskins were brought in as part of the Outlanders expansion. You could get a whole gang of them, but they couldn't use the trading post and had a totally different mechanic for getting creds and doing upkeep. From memory they would tend to be ultra poor, until they were good enough to steal territory and loot it to death.

 Haighus wrote:
So, I never played Necromunda the first time around, and Lexicanum is surprisingly thin on the ground for background info about it.

Can anyone tell me more about Ratskins, and how they used to be incorporated into the game? From what I can see, they don't really interact with the Hivers at all, except for a few outcasts. Were there playable gangs of outcasts in the past, or just the occassional Ratskin tracker hired gun?

I feel like if they were brought back, they should be made to be a little less reclusive, perhaps being more aggressive and attacking Hivers more often? Instead of avoiding them at all costs, which seems to be the way they were described previously from the little I have gleaned on the wiki.

Go to Yaktribe, login, find download section and download Outlanders to read all about them first hand. All old rulebooks are free and legal to download. While main rulebook only had rules for Ratskin Scout (hired gun for any gang to hire), there was a whole Ratskins gang and a special character, Brakar, in Outlanders.

In case some one else is spending a lot of time building and painting terrain and minis these days, I recommend a couple of really good (and long) podcasts/episodes from people with a bit more insight into the game than "these models look really nice" unboxing videoes:

https://podtail.com/podcast/chronicles-from-the-underhive-s-podcast/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmO2qmjjYdA

Baxx wrote:

stratigo wrote:

The way you play the game, the only way, is in the base rulebook. Gang war adds a campaign mechanic, how to deal with multilevel terrain, and more skills. That's it. All those extra weapons are for the campaign. They don't go to a starting gang

Well, there's 3 different ways to play the game, 2 of which are in the base rulebook and 1 is in parts of the rulebook and Gang War 1. Those extra weapons can perfectly well go to a starting gang. I've already gone through alot of the differences and the incompatible differences.

The only way I'm ever gonna play the game is the 3rd option: less than half of the rulebook + Gang War1 (and any future add-ons). In the long run, option 1 and 2 won't survive. they won't receive any future development. It's a project dead from the start.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Leafing through the Underhive book, I estimate 27 of the rules pages are relevant for Gang War campaign games and 31 are not, barring the odd weapon profile or trait that's inexplicably missing from Gang War.

Thank you!

I understand what you are trying to get at, but the way you are saying it is complete nonsense. The underhive rulebook has the rules. It has the option to limit the rules you use for 'basic' play. But in advanced (eg the full game) you still use every single one of those rules. Gang war adds rules for 3d terrain (all of 4 pages), 6 scenarios, AND campaigns. The campaigns have nothing to do with on the table play, with is, 90 percent, from the underhive book. That is simply how it is.

You can, and certainly will, use zone mortalis rules in campaign play. It is the attacker's choice, and some gangs are better in shorter range.

For those who are slow on the uptake, let me break this down for you.

Rule Book Rules = Zone Mortalis
Gang War 1 Rules = Necromunda

A few years back, Forge World developed a game they were really proud of called Zone Mortalis but few people bought it mostly because of the really high price of their resin game boards which couldn't be adapted well to 40k (or any other GW game). Forge World is in charge of all Specialist Games titles now so when it came time to do Necromunda, they saw an opportunity to incorporate (inculcate?) Zone Mortalis into the redesign. This allowed them to distribute their pet game to the larger community. Expect future Necromunda releases to be very inclusive of the Zone Mortalis rules. Also, when their Epic Armageddon overhaul is released, expect it to contain Aeronautica Imperialis rules. Seriously, you know it's going to happen so just accept it.

 Breotan wrote:
For those who are slow on the uptake, let me break this down for you.

Rule Book Rules = Zone Mortalis
Gang War 1 Rules = Necromunda

A few years back, Forge World developed a game they were really proud of called Zone Mortalis but few people bought it mostly because of the really high price of their resin game boards which couldn't be adapted well to 40k (or any other GW game). Forge World is in charge of all Specialist Games titles now so when it came time to do Necromunda, they saw an opportunity to incorporate (inculcate?) Zone Mortalis into the redesign. This allowed them to distribute their pet game to the larger community. Expect future Necromunda releases to be very inclusive of the Zone Mortalis rules. Also, when their Epic Armageddon overhaul is released, expect it to contain Aeronautica Imperialis rules. Seriously, you know it's going to happen so just accept it.

To be slightly more accurate:

Rule Book Rules = Zone Mortalis
Gang War 1 Rules = about 1/5th of Necromunda

stratigo wrote:

I understand what you are trying to get at, but the way you are saying it is complete nonsense. The underhive rulebook has the rules. It has the option to limit the rules you use for 'basic' play. But in advanced (eg the full game) you still use every single one of those rules. Gang war adds rules for 3d terrain (all of 4 pages), 6 scenarios, AND campaigns. The campaigns have nothing to do with on the table play, with is, 90 percent, from the underhive book. That is simply how it is.

You can, and certainly will, use zone mortalis rules in campaign play. It is the attacker's choice, and some gangs are better in shorter range.

Did you ever summarize the two books and look at the difference? I did. What you're saying is simply not correct.

 Breotan wrote:
For those who are slow on the uptake, let me break this down for you.

Rule Book Rules = Zone Mortalis
Gang War 1 Rules = Necromunda

A more accurate summary would be:

Rule Book Rules = Necromunda
Gang War 1 Rules = More Necromunda

Rule book rules is not 1 set of rules, it's 2 sets of rules.

Gang War 1 is a different set of rules all together.

Only Gang War 1 and less than half of the rule book is "Necromunda" as we know it, the rest is something... different.

It seems many people really dislike the sewer missions. It know this may not help everyone, but in my current Necro group, we do some of the sewer missions as special combats to help build up juves.

We take usually about 8 or so juves from either gang and have them do the flat 2d board missions. Since those missions are meatgriders, the models who survive often get a decent amount of experience and often a funny or cool story to boot. Which allows us to have a... baptism by fire, if you will and a quick means of ranking up a bit of exp for the newbies.

Can you play Necromunda ( Easy ) just using the rulebook? Yes.
Can you play Necromunda ( Advanced ) using Gang War? Yes.
Simple as that.

Many parts of the rule book is incompatible with Gang War 1.

Did you ever summarize the two books and look at the differences? I did.

There's 3 different games:

1) rulebook simple
2) rulebook advanced
3) parts of rulebook (advanced) + Gang War 1

From what I've heard of estimates, less than half of the rulebook is compatible with Gang War 1.

The skills in the rulebook simply does not work with Gang war1! It just doesn't work, no matter what anyone say.

Please note that I'm not at all thinking about 2d/3d or Zone Mortalis or Sector Mechanicus here!

That's probably because one deals with 2D terrain, the other 3D terrain.

Please....the horse is long since dead. Please, for the love of whichever deity you may or may not believe in, let it go.

Never mind ...

This has probably already been mentioned, but I'd like to see pieces from Forge World to add the various dangerous terrain elements to the resin ZM tiles.

On which note, does anyone have a photo of the card and resin tiles together? The resin tiles say they're 12" across, but the card tiles are more like 11.5"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That's probably because one deals with 2D terrain, the other 3D terrain.

Please....the horse is long since dead. Please, for the love of whichever deity you may or may not believe in, let it go.

Okay, just note that nothing I said had anything to do with the 2d/3d aspect of the game.

Baxx wrote:
Many parts of the rule book is incompatible with Gang War 1.

Elaborate on what you mean by 'incompatible'.

Mutually exclusive.

Baxx wrote:
Mutually exclusive.

I'm pretty sure H.B.M.C. was asking for an example of incompatible rules, not a definition of the word incompatible.

Yes ok, here's differences that do not work together between the two books:

-skills
-costs
-a few armoury entries
-scenarios

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Never mind ...

This has probably already been mentioned, but I'd like to see pieces from Forge World to add the various dangerous terrain elements to the resin ZM tiles.

On which note, does anyone have a photo of the card and resin tiles together? The resin tiles say they're 12" across, but the card tiles are more like 11.5"

I know the doors from Necromunda don't fit the doorways on the resin Mortalis boards

Baxx wrote:
Yes ok, here's differences that do not work together between the two books:

-skills
-costs
-a few armoury entries
-scenarios

So... not the rules, then?

Ahh, skills is something different from rules? Yes then I understand the confusion! Sorry for calling skills, scenarios, costs and armoury entries for rules.

 Rolsheen wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Never mind ...

This has probably already been mentioned, but I'd like to see pieces from Forge World to add the various dangerous terrain elements to the resin ZM tiles.

On which note, does anyone have a photo of the card and resin tiles together? The resin tiles say they're 12" across, but the card tiles are more like 11.5"

I know the doors from Necromunda don't fit the doorways on the resin Mortalis boards

Too big or too small? I was sure someone official had said they do fit, on one of the Facebook pages. :(

 Albertorius wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Yes ok, here's differences that do not work together between the two books:

-skills
-costs
-a few armoury entries
-scenarios

So... not the rules, then?

What are they then, suggestions?

Baxx wrote:
-skills
-costs

So the basic introductory skills and costs not designed for campaign play and to get people started are superseded by a more complete campaign system.

Big deal.

Baxx wrote:
-a few armoury entries

The question remains whether these are mistakes or intentional. We'll have to wait until an FAQ comes out.

Baxx wrote:
-scenarios

How?

I didn't say it was big deal. I said they weren't compatible. Feels like you're moving the goalpost here. There's about 20 or so pages in the rulebook which belong to one of the dead versions of the game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Baxx wrote:
-scenarios

How?

Lose-lose for both teams playing.

Must be freezing in all layers of Hell when H.B.M.C. is being willfully obtuse in order to defend GW.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Yes ok, here's differences that do not work together between the two books:

-skills
-costs
-a few armoury entries
-scenarios

So... not the rules, then?

What are they then, suggestions?

They are, as he has already pointed out, skills, costs, a few armoury entries and scenarios. "The rules", I would tend to assume would be the stuff put in the sections called "The Rules", "Basic Rules", Advanced Rules", instead of in the sections called "Founding a Gang", "Underhive Battles" or "Underhive Armoury". Same as, for example, spells are not "the rules", even if they have rules.

But that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baxx wrote:
I didn't say it was big deal. I said they weren't compatible. Feels like you're moving the goalpost here. There's about 20 or so pages in the rulebook which belong to one of the dead versions of the game.

That, though, is absolutely true. There is stuff in the book I would use very little if at all, particularly the gang creation section (which, IIRC, also contains the aforementioned skills), and I guess I would need to modify the corebook scenarios.

OTOH, I am planning to use the Zone Mortalis tiles in conjunction with my 3D table (the idea is to have places on the 3D board where you can access the ZM lower level, to give the board an additional level, although I guess I have enough of them to also have upper levels... hmmmmm), so I will be using all the rules, both the 2D and the 3D ones at the same time.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Yes ok, here's differences that do not work together between the two books:

-skills
-costs
-a few armoury entries
-scenarios

So... not the rules, then?

What are they then, suggestions?

They are, as he has already pointed out, skills, costs, a few armoury entries and scenarios. "The rules", I would tend to assume would be the stuff put in the sections called "The Rules", "Basic Rules", Advanced Rules", instead of in the sections called "Founding a Gang", "Underhive Battles" or "Underhive Armoury". Same as, for example, spells are not "the rules", even if they have rules.

But that's just me.

I'd say it very much is, or else I've been playing wargames wrong for 20+ years. The rules are, you know, the rules, all of the rules. They could call the chapter in the book of rules "The Greeblesnorkelry" and the statements within it providing specific instructions on how to do a thing within the game system in question would still be rules.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I'd say it very much is, or else I've been playing wargames wrong for 20+ years. The rules are, you know, the rules, all of the rules. They could call the chapter in the book of rules "The Greeblesnorkelry" and the statements within it providing specific instructions on how to do a thing within the game system in question would still be rules.

Well, then you have.

The rules are the rules. for example, There are rules on how skills work, and then there are the skills, which have rules, but are not rules. That's why they are called Skill rules, Movement rules, combat rules, and so on and so forth. Same with weapons, which are not rules. Same with scenarios, which are not rules. All of them have rules, but are not rules.

For example: weapons. The rules governing them don't change between the core rulebook and Gang War, even though some of the specific rules and costs for them do. Same with skills: the rules governing them are the same, even though in Gang War is very complicated to get Gunslinger for an Escher ganger while being very easy for gangs made with the core.

An example of a contradiction of sorts between rules: LOS rules for ZM and SM. Those are different, incompatible rules.

Can we continue with the actual topic of the thread now?

Yes, let's stop being willfully obtuse just to defend GW marketing choices.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, let's stop being willfully obtuse just to defend GW marketing choices.

Oh, don't get me wrong, defending GW's decisions is not what I want. I personally hate what they've done for this game with the day one DLC and the "gotta catch them all" philosophy that seems to be fueling the supplements. I believe that if the game flops much of the blame will have to be pointed there.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Must be freezing in all layers of Hell when H.B.M.C. is being willfully obtuse in order to defend GW.

No I just don't think that what Baxx is saying has much merit.

How are the scenarios not compatible? Outside of areas that are obviously overridden by a more complete campaign system in GW1, what's wrong with the Newcromunda rulebook?

Is he implying that the Zone Mortalis rules are contradicted by the Sector Mechanicus rules? It's just a different method of playing the same game.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Never mind ...

This has probably already been mentioned, but I'd like to see pieces from Forge World to add the various dangerous terrain elements to the resin ZM tiles.

On which note, does anyone have a photo of the card and resin tiles together? The resin tiles say they're 12" across, but the card tiles are more like 11.5"

I know the doors from Necromunda don't fit the doorways on the resin Mortalis boards

Too big or too small? I was sure someone official had said they do fit, on one of the Facebook pages. :(

Too big, the casting variance of the resin tiles means they'll fit sometimes. I think it was on Battlebunnies

Baxx wrote:
Rule book rules is not 1 set of rules, it's 2 sets of rules.

Gang War 1 is a different set of rules all together.

Only Gang War 1 and less than half of the rule book is "Necromunda" as we know it, the rest is something... different.

I... can't understand how you think this.

This is stupid.

Please read the rules before you play, you obviously haven't.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I'd say it very much is, or else I've been playing wargames wrong for 20+ years. The rules are, you know, the rules, all of the rules. They could call the chapter in the book of rules "The Greeblesnorkelry" and the statements within it providing specific instructions on how to do a thing within the game system in question would still be rules.

Well, then you have.

The rules are the rules. for example, There are rules on how skills work, and then there are the skills, which have rules, but are not rules. That's why they are called Skill rules, Movement rules, combat rules, and so on and so forth. Same with weapons, which are not rules. Same with scenarios, which are not rules. All of them have rules, but are not rules.

For example: weapons. The rules governing them don't change between the core rulebook and Gang War, even though some of the specific rules and costs for them do. Same with skills: the rules governing them are the same, even though in Gang War is very complicated to get Gunslinger for an Escher ganger while being very easy for gangs made with the core.

An example of a contradiction of sorts between rules: LOS rules for ZM and SM. Those are different, incompatible rules.

Can we continue with the actual topic of the thread now?

OK, so you are just resorting to gratuitous semantics then, thought so. If it has rules, it is rules. Presenting those rules as a scenario, or a weapon profile, or a table is irrelevant - if they are mandates for how to play, they are rules. I mean by your ludicrous argument, GW could release the next Space Marine codex with Movie Marine-style rules where every Marine is an army unto themselves, and yet "the rules haven't changed" because you still use the same army selection method from the core rulebook to compose a force of the new style.

So I'm going to try and steer the thread back to what its supposed to be. I understand some people are upset and the cutting of content practice, I know I am, but no need to be petty and much such hyperbolic statements and insult each other guys.

I for one am fully happy (overall) with the game, though I wish like many others there wasn't cut content. That being said, I just bought a bunch of new Sector Mechanicus terrain and thermic plasma conduits. Which if any of you haven't gotten them. Do it. Super easy, reasonably priced and they have little plasma charges you can plug in! Both adorable as well as useful plot/mission objectives.

 Yodhrin wrote:
OK, so you are just resorting to gratuitous semantics then, thought so. If it has rules, it is rules. Presenting those rules as a scenario, or a weapon profile, or a table is irrelevant - if they are mandates for how to play, they are rules. I mean by your ludicrous argument, GW could release the next Space Marine codex with Movie Marine-style rules where every Marine is an army unto themselves, and yet "the rules haven't changed" because you still use the same army selection method from the core rulebook to compose a force of the new style.

OK then, to Ignore it is. Keep using whatever definition you feel happy with.

Now can we get back to the actual topic of the thread?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I just don't think that what Baxx is saying has much merit.

How are the scenarios not compatible? Outside of areas that are obviously overridden by a more complete campaign system in GW1, what's wrong with the Newcromunda rulebook?

Is he implying that the Zone Mortalis rules are contradicted by the Sector Mechanicus rules? It's just a different method of playing the same game.

Hi H.B.M.C did you see what I wrote earlier:

Baxx wrote:

Okay, just note that nothing I said had anything to do with the 2d/3d aspect of the game.

I have made a unified document of Necromunda, sewing together all sources into one. When doing so, there were 20+ pages in the rulebook that just didn't fit in (examples of which have been repeated all over the previous page).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Rule book rules is not 1 set of rules, it's 2 sets of rules.

Gang War 1 is a different set of rules all together.

Only Gang War 1 and less than half of the rule book is "Necromunda" as we know it, the rest is something... different.

I... can't understand how you think this.

This is stupid.

Please read the rules before you play, you obviously haven't.

Haven't read the rules? I've read, written and edited every single line of all Necromunda 2017 rules including those leaked in Gang War 2.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

How are the scenarios not compatible?

No campaign rewards.

Outside of areas that are obviously overridden by a more complete campaign system in GW1, what's wrong with the Newcromunda rulebook?

That 27 out of 58 rules pages in Underhive came obsolete right out of the printing press except to the kind of player who needs that 4-page get you started leaflet that usually serves this function. Enough pages to fit half of Gang War into the main book.

Is he implying that the Zone Mortalis rules are contradicted by the Sector Mechanicus rules? It's just a different method of playing the same game.

No, I did not include the 2D terrain rules in the obsolete pages above.

I think it's a valid complaint to say that a quarter of the main book was never intended to be used except as a pretend board game like those Hewitt himself admitted were made entirely as a marketing gimmick for discount army bundles - Burning of Prospero and so on.

And yet we all had to pay for those 27 pages and we have to lug them around everywhere, and the artificial split between two books, and two sections of the core book, combined with an appalling level of editing incompetence, means that finding any specific rule is a complete pain.

We'd be better off if the big box just came with a getting started leaflet and all the rules came in a coherent whole in a (more expensive) Gang War 1.

At least that's my complaint. You might like having rules randomly scattered everywhere and not needing half of them, but don't act like that's on objectively superior position to be on.

Thank you again, I failed at expressing my opinions as clearly as this.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
And yet we all had to pay for those 27 pages and we have to lug them around everywhere, and the artificial split between two books, and two sections of the core book, combined with an appalling level of editing incompetence, means that finding any specific rule is a complete pain.

That would actually be my biggest complain, yeah...

Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

Guess we just disagree.

In my view, the dead dumbed-down demo version of the game is obsolete. Time will tell who is right.

Duskweaver wrote:
Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

What you say is true in exactly the same way as saying that Betrayal at Calth or Deathwatch Overkill is a real game. Objectively yes, but in practice only to a few people. The difference is the rest of us can't just throw out the booklet and card decks here and keep the minis for our 30k/40k army, those redundant pages will clog our Necromunda books forever.

As for the differences in costs and stats, don't kid yourself. Those are either artificial to justify doubling up on the page count, or random copy/paste errors. There is no clever game balancing going on there. Ya all should know that by now if you've been following GW for more than a month.

*Shrug* Our group will mostly be playing one-off skirmish games with the 2D tiles, because most of us just plain don't have the time to devote to running a proper campaign or buying, assembling and painting a table's worth of Sector Mechanicus stuff. You do what you want. But claiming that things are obsolete because you refuse to use them seems, to put it as politely as possible, somewhat conceited.

You talk of a group, yet there's only 2 gangs in the version you speak of. That's like saying you have a group playing 40k, but everyone is either using the orks or space marines from the starter box.

I don't care what board you play on. The version of this game which has 2 teams, 11 skills per team and 11 different items per team is gonna die. It's not gonna receive any further development, no further expansions, no nothing. It's on par with the leaflet starter rules which is standard from other companies (and I wish they kept those rules outside the book in a separate leaflet just like other companies do).

None of the hype and nostaliga for Necromunda got anything to do with that version.

What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

Definitely! I have many, many plans in my head. Just choose the house gang list that you think best fits the theme, so Skitarii might be best suited as using the Van Saar list for example (given that they both like techno stuff!)

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

It would be interesting to see if GW lets other kits "seep through" from regular 40k, like Skitarii and PDF.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

I currently use Skitarii and Genestealer Hybrids for my main gangs. Both boxes provide enough weapon variations and combinations to make all necessary gagers/juves for Oldcromunda (with Skitarii it is true as long as you don't want to play "exact" WYSYWIG" and can instead play "proxy theme" weaponry).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

You haven't picked up my message and want it repeated?

Baxx wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

You haven't picked up my message and want it repeated?

No, he just most likely would like you to kindly shut up about this entirely pointless argument you seem to fixate upon. As would others.

Yes, Gang War provides the Newcromunda that is played as campaigns whereas the main box does present the basic rules in a more widely marketable fashion. Could you perhaps just let it be so? You don't get any internet points for crusading against the way things are.

nou wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

I currently use Skitarii and Genestealer Hybrids for my main gangs. Both boxes provide enough weapon variations and combinations to make all necessary gagers/juves for Oldcromunda (with Skitarii it is true as long as you don't want to play "exact" WYSYWIG" and can instead play "proxy theme" weaponry).

Speaking of Ad Mech, I feel like the Macro stubber, Stub carbines and Flechette blaster would all make for cool weapons in the Underhive. I can see Macro stubbers and Flechette blasters being rare and expensive, but Stub carbines look like something that could be reasonably common.

Galvanic rifles would also be cool unusual weapons. I think Radium carbines would be too lethal to the user, but maybe they could work with anti-rad meds, and also for Van Saar.

It would be nice that after they released all of the factions they would compile everything into one book. Having to have at least 3 books so far (Core rules from the box set, can you even get those separate, GW1, upcoming GW2) sounds daunting to me.

It would also be nice if there were "boss encounters".
In the original there were a faction called spyrers, iirc, which were basically minibosses.

There were also Arbiters, which I vaguely recall being the GM's way of making sure a gang doesn't get too far ahead.
Its been ages since I read the original rules, so idk.

Having a Space Marine miniboss, tank, or a Necron miniboss might be fun.

Please stop having this argument about how compatible the main rule book and Gang War are. Please. It is ruining the thread.

I am desperately hoping for the old rules to design your own gang. Sadly, I doubt we will ever see them in this edition. I'm really peeved at the fact that Orlocks now have Savant instead of Shooting as a primary skill. It makes it almost impossible for me to recreate one of my original gangs, even in concept, let alone practice. Maybe it is a major typo. Here's hoping.

I also just bought a box of Skitarri and Genestealer cult to hodpodge a bunch of mooks and none (current gangs). Painting Skitarri robes to look like leather seems to be working wonders with the genestealer nerds legs and arms.

Thinking of buying a box or two of Stormtroopers/scions for leg and body (maybe even heads) kitbashing for more diversity or heavily armored guys (gotta show that 4+ save somehow!).

Will post pics once I finish building them.

 Fifty wrote:
I'm really peeved at the fact that Orlocks now have Savant instead of Shooting as a primary skill.

I'm pretty annoyed that the mining house gets Savant skills and +1 Int, while the biochemistry house doesn't. But not half as annoyed as I am at the only female gang in the game getting -1 Cool compared to everyone else for no reason other than, presumably, some GW designers still like sexist stereotypes...

EDIT: Oh, yeah, there's an actual topic, isn't there? OK, my speculation/wishlist item is that some other gangs (Cawdor and Delaque seem most appropriate) also get 8+ or worse Cool when they get their real (not legacy) rules.

Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

Duskweaver wrote:
But not half as annoyed as I am at the only female gang in the game getting -1 Cool compared to everyone else for no reason other than, presumably, some GW designers still like sexist stereotypes...

Do you honestly, and I do mean honestly, think that that's the reason why they have that Cool stat?

I mean really...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

So you're saying only Eschers are drugged-up psychopaths? 'Cos that's not what the game's actual lore says.

This is probably veering a little wide of the topic anyway.

EDIT: OK, this is going to be my last comment on this...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do you honestly, and I do mean honestly, think that that's the reason why they have that Cool stat?

I do. I would normally be willing to give GW the benefit of the doubt, but there are just too many sexist stereotypes shoehorned into the Escher fluff in this edition for me to do that without being willfully blind. They are literally what the nerdy kid in school who couldn't get a date thinks girls are like (except with guns and biotech). They are the only gang explicitly stated to make money from the sex trade, despite the fact that logically all gangs would do that. They're the only gang to be negatively mechanically effected by their psychosis, when all gangers in the game are supposed to be at least a bit unstable. They're described as being exceptionally vain and fashion-obsessed (and viciously catty - gangers dare not look better than their gang leader). They think it's a good idea to wear stiletto-heeled thigh-boots in combat.

Do you honestly (and I do mean honestly) not see the big pile of problem there?

One or two of those things in isolation wouldn't bother me. I'm not some SJW ideologue who freaks out at the merest hint of sexism or objectification (as my Slaaneshi army for AoS would make abundantly obvious). But the Eschers in this iteration of Necromunda just feel like someone deliberately mashed together every sexist trope they could think of. It won't stop me playing the game. It won't stop me playing Eschers. But it still irks me.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Duskweaver wrote:
Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

What you say is true in exactly the same way as saying that Betrayal at Calth or Deathwatch Overkill is a real game. Objectively yes, but in practice only to a few people. The difference is the rest of us can't just throw out the booklet and card decks here and keep the minis for our 30k/40k army, those redundant pages will clog our Necromunda books forever.....

On topic, I pretty much agree. GW should have included the campaign rules, 3D stuff, etc. in the core book and cut out the one-off pricing (or just make it an entry on the actual campaign pricing of stuff).
Our group bought into the game and I'm kind of annoyed that we're kind of stuck with this doling out of rules snippets via $25-$30 supplements.
I'd be much happier, if they were dead set on drip-feeding us, if they had put them in WD issues like they're reportedly doing with the GSC and Chaos cultists.

Off topic, Betrayal @ Calth and Deathwatch Overkill are actually pretty cool games in and by themselves.
My last group played through both games' campaigns and had started playing B@C one-off games because they were pretty decent scenarios.
Funny enough, the card mechanics from B@C have made their way into Newcromunda and so has alternating activation.

Duskweaver wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

So you're saying only Eschers are drugged-up psychopaths? 'Cos that's not what the game's actual lore says.

This is probably veering a little wide of the topic anyway.

They are a house who's infamous for their use of drugs and biochemistry and are reputed to be cruel and sadistic, even by gangster standards.
I mean, the other houses certainly aren't bastions of restraint and ethics, but House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.
Let me put it this way - who do you think would be more likely to be drugged up on a more frequent basis, the criminals who make the drugs and effectively get them for free, or the criminals who have to buy them?

On topic, I really hope Arbites are a playable faction. Not just something that the GM uses to limit a gang during a campaign, which I vaguely remember how they were before.
Arbites are cool. I always liked that Judge Dredd / Robocop thing they have going on with their armor.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Could you perhaps just let it be so? You don't get any internet points for crusading against the way things are.

Ah man, now you've made the entire internet cry. And question the point in it's existence. Good going, you big bully

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.

A worse Cool score doesn't make them "more vicious". It makes them more flakey and likely to run away like startled rabbits when the shooting starts.

If GW wanted Eschers to feel "more vicious", they'd have given them primary access to Ferocity skills. As it stands, the Goliaths are the "more vicious" gang in the box.

Duskweaver wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.

A worse Cool score doesn't make them "more vicious". It makes them more flakey and likely to run away like startled rabbits when the shooting starts.

If GW wanted Eschers to feel "more vicious", they'd have given them primary access to Ferocity skills. As it stands, the Goliaths are the "more vicious" gang in the box.

Or shoot at the closest target. The cool stat has other functions than morale. Its almost as if its difficult to control oneself when hopped up on drugs.

It also might be a balancing factor for the quite potent combination of high movement, Combat and Agility skills. Some combinations are stronger than others. Of course, we don't have enough knowledge of what's planned to compare, but I guess it's about how much faith you have in their design ethic.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
It also might be a balancing factor for the quite potent combination of high movement, Combat and Agility skills. Some combinations are stronger than others. Of course, we don't have enough knowledge of what's planned to compare, but I guess it's about how much faith you have in their design ethic.

It could also be related to balance as well. They are pretty mobile and do have access to gas weapons, which are just nasty.

Duskweaver wrote:
I do. I would normally be willing to give GW the benefit of the doubt, but there are just too many sexist stereotypes shoehorned into the Escher fluff in this edition for me to do that without being willfully blind. They are literally what the nerdy kid in school who couldn't get a date thinks girls are like (except with guns and biotech). They are the only gang explicitly stated to make money from the sex trade, despite the fact that logically all gangs would do that. They're the only gang to be negatively mechanically effected by their psychosis, when all gangers in the game are supposed to be at least a bit unstable. They're described as being exceptionally vain and fashion-obsessed (and viciously catty - gangers dare not look better than their gang leader). They think it's a good idea to wear stiletto-heeled thigh-boots in combat.

So you genuinely think that Andy Hoare and James Hewitt sat down and decided, wilfully, intentionally, decided to make the female faction less level-headed because of sexism?

Come on...

Duskweaver wrote:
Do you honestly (and I do mean honestly) not see the big pile of problem there?

Nope. Because there's nothing to see. You're chasing at phantoms in the underhive.

Duskweaver wrote:
I'm not some SJW ideologue who freaks out at the merest hint of sexism or objectification...

Maybe so but you're doing what they do so often: Assuming motive.

Not another sexist SJW discussion please. No crusader points in the internet!

Usually the people who make the drugs are not the ones who use them most- they are smart enough to sell it to others cos they know what the drugs do to people.

Also, we know two houses are reliant on Escher drugs for them to function.

 Haighus wrote:
Usually the people who make the drugs are not the ones who use them most- they are smart enough to sell it to others cos they know what the drugs do to people.

Also, we know two houses are reliant on Escher drugs for them to function.

It explicitly says that they use their drugs on themselves. "Usually" doesn't matter. Its in their background that they sample their own products.

as befits the character of their parent Clan House, Escher gangs make extensive use of especially tailored chemicals and elixers, both on themselves and their enemies

Page 87, underhive.

Not to mention that chemsynths are part of their basic wargear list, unlike goliath.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you genuinely think that Andy Hoare and James Hewitt sat down and decided, wilfully, intentionally, decided to make the female faction less level-headed because of sexism?

.
I think they did it "because of sexism", but not "wilfully, intentionally". I may have actually misunderstood your question slightly. I don't think they deliberately set out to demonstrate their sexist attitudes. I just think the GW design studio is enough of a boy's club that nobody there looked at what they'd written and realised that they'd hit quite so many sexist stereotypes. This sort of thing is almost always unconscious/unintentional. And I also don't think it makes Andy Hoare and James Hewitt bad people in any meaningful sense. Unconscious sexism is the norm, not the exception. Most people fall into it unless they make an effort not to. As a writer myself, I know I sometimes look at stuff I've written and realise there are... let's say "unfortunate implications" that the piece would be better off without (but that's much less embarassing than when the person who commissioned the piece points it out during a Skype conversation... ). But my clients are mostly video game developers, which as an industry (GamerGate aside) is actually much more... sensitive? socially aware? on this issue than tabletop wargaming companies like GW seem to be. I think GW is about where the tabletop RPG industry was 20 years or so ago on what I guess we could call "gender issues".

Anyway, at the risk of prolonging this, let me ask you a question. If they'd done one gang that was all dark-skinned, while the other five were all light-skinned, and the dark-skinned gang had a penalty to their Intelligence score relative to all the other gangs (in the name of "balance", natch, so let's say they have a bonus to S and T), would you think that was OK?

Jesus Christ, could you not?

Yeah, I do actually feel bad about bringing it up in this particular thread, since it doesn't really have much to do with the topic. I would remind everyone that it started as merely a (mostly) light-hearted reply to another poster complaining about House Orlock's changed skill lists. But HBMC asked me a question and I answered it honestly, as requested. Nobody is required to like the answer.

I know this is probably not going to happen, but I really hope they release plastic sprues for weapon upgrades. I'd like to see a box of arms, maybe a couple new poses and lots of weapons and tidbits for all or at least some of the gangs.

I have a bit of a fetish for little cap on my minis. My guard models and Space marines are heavily loaded out with gernades, ammo belts/pouches, knives and any accesorys I can fit on them. I just like to kit them out and it would be nice for extra variety as well as possibly new gear.

Gangwar is obviously missing quite a few things in wargear: the amount of gun mods and melee mods not currently in the game is both shocking and appealing as it means we should be getting more. Maybe a plastic gun kit: different stocks, scopes, weapon upgrades, tailsmonds, charms and the like would all be fun.

I can't remember if I or anyone else has already mentioned it, but I'd like an upgrade pack of Caryatids, since Andy dragged that bit of background out from the old material. Little blue, bat-winged flying babies that bring good luck; what's not to like?

Am I going mad, or did their used to be a mechanic somewhere for turning members of retired Gangs into Hired Guns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I can't remember if I or anyone else has already mentioned it, but I'd like an upgrade pack of Caryatids, since Andy dragged that bit of background out from the old material. Little blue, bat-winged flying babies that bring good luck; what's not to like?

J'accuse!

It might have been in the rules in Outlanders for leadership challenges.

If there weren't, it's easy enough to do. Their gang rating is cost + (XP/5). Hiring fee is one fifth of that. Should be easy enough to work out the cost in the new edition, too.

If anyone's interested in using more 40K dudes in a Necromunda setting I have a 75 page rulebook that I wrote with a friend that ported the majority of 6th Ed 40K over to Necromunda rules . Skill trees, equipment rarities and costs, new rules, thew whole shebang.

It's a beta test version, and some tinkering will be needed to make it fit with the new rules, and it's going to be missing newer units, but it's pretty solid. We played it for about a year at our FLGS and everyone had a lot of fun. PM me if your interested and I'll email you a copy.

On a related note, is anyone interested in attempting something similar with 8th Ed and/or making a more organized attempt to rationalize the one I have with the new Necromunda? I'm sure we have enough guys to playtest and comment on adapting 8th. Why wait for GW (who isn't going to do this anyway IMO)?

Baxx wrote:
Guess we just disagree.

In my view, the dead dumbed-down demo version of the game is obsolete. Time will tell who is right.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


You tell me where in gang war it tells you how to wound, how to charge, or when to roll your cool checks.

The basic Necromunda Underhive - without the campaign elements - would seem to be perfect for games in shops against strangers, where you'll have no continuity week on week when it comes to opponents. In English, "obsolete" doesn't mean "something I don't want". Perhaps it's different in Norwegian.

Obsolete means, variously: no longer in use, no longer wanted, or old fashioned. It does not strictly mean not useful or wanted.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion of course, and maybe people do feel that the OOB version is obsolete. What boggles me is that some of those same people seem to think that their opinion matters in any context outside their own personal likes and dislikes. It doesn't. The utility of a version of the game that doesn't require a table full of specialist terrain is manifest and obvious. As is the utility of a casual version of the game that doesn't require extra set up, paper work, plat time, and a regular group of players. I really don't know why anyone would even try to argue differently.

The actual question, I think, is: would the "no campaign" game be supported in the Gang War X books for the rest of the gangs? As in, will ther be premade gangs and different gang creation rules for both styles of play in the following books?

I'm not talking about the core rules of the rulebook, the argument about to wound etc does not apply. That part is not part of my argument. 2d/3d is not part of my argument. I'm talking about the 20+ pages that does not combine with gang war 1 or any future gang war. Sure the demo game has a purpose. But it will not gain any additional support, no extra gangs or anything. It is a dead game only suitable for newbie intros and extremely unvaried and simplified casual play.

I think it is bad to have those dead pages in the book, instead of a separate pamphlet. I guess all will be good when the rulebook is released separately. Then those obsolete pages of the dead demo game will be gone. But I fear the advanced section will remain.

Baxx wrote:
I'm not talking about the core rules of the rulebook, the argument about to wound etc does not apply. That part is not part of my argument. 2d/3d is not part of my argument. I'm talking about the 20+ pages that does not combine with gang war 1 or any future gang war. Sure the demo game has a purpose. But it will not gain any additional support, no extra gangs or anything. It is a dead game only suitable for newbie intros and extremely unvaried and simplified casual play.

I think it is bad to have those dead pages in the book, instead of a separate pamphlet. I guess all will be good when the rulebook is released separately. Then those obsolete pages of the dead demo game will be gone. But I fear the advanced section will remain.

Yeah, well, as I said it will probably depend on wether or not they support it in the coming rulebooks (Gang War 1 doesn't have any support for it, but it doesn't have anything it needs support, as it's only for the stuff released with the box). If they actually include "core box" gang creation rules they will actually be supporting it fully. We do know that GW2 will be including new terrain rules for the ZM games, so there will be some support, at the very least.

We don't know for certain, but I don't think they will prolong the 2 versions of necromunda on top of the already 2 terrain versions. GW2 supporting ZM is a completely different thimg cause ZM is compatible with GW1.

If they would make the very strange and unlikely decision to keep supporting the demo version, we would see pre-filled orlock cards with names and skills sold separately (gw never includes cards in the miniature boxes). And I just don't see GW2 having 2 different sections on how to create an orlock gang, one immensely richer than the other. That can only confuse people further.

Just look at the long list of questions posted in another thread. The rules are full of holes, uncertainties and inconsistencies already. They gonna keep developing 2 versions when they got all that mess to fix just for 1 version? Nobody who were excited about newcromunda in the first place had any interest of the demo version anyway. It was not a feature anyone missed from oldcromunda.

There's not two versions of Necromunda, dagnabbit!

The core rules are the same for both - move, shoot, punch them in the mush.

Zone Mortalis and Industrial Sector both use said core rules, with additions suitable to that environment.

It's one game dude.

Zone Mortalis is also an incredibly cost effective thing for them to continue to expand. Contrast and compare the likely cost of creating new Sector Mechanicus kits, and a new set of say, 6 Zone Mortalis tiles - which are of course double sided. It's also a cheap and effective way for us players to vary our Underhive experiences.

It's two incompatible games

The core rules are shared by both.

Still talking 2d/3d? I'm not.

One game you say? That game got juves or not?

One game? That game got 11 skills or 48 skills?

That one game, it got 2 Houses or 6?

It's not 1 game. It's two games. One will be supported for years to come, one is dead from start.

In case anyone's interested, I've noticed that the Shieldmaidens and the new GW's Escher parts mix decently enough:




They have a bit too much mail, of course, but seeing as how everyone but the juves have armor now, well...

Baxx how about playing a few more games and a bit less complaining.
I've played quite a few games now and had no problems

 Albertorius wrote:
In case anyone's interested, I've noticed that the Shieldmaidens and the new GW's Escher parts mix decently enough:




They have a bit too much mail, of course, but seeing as how everyone but the juves have armor now, well...

They look awesome!

Nice work @Albertorius

Baxx wrote:
It's two incompatible games

The core rules are shared by both.

Still talking 2d/3d? I'm not.

One game you say? That game got juves or not?

One game? That game got 11 skills or 48 skills?

That one game, it got 2 Houses or 6?

It's not 1 game. It's two games. One will be supported for years to come, one is dead from start.

The game is Necromunda Underhive.

Necromunda Underhive has one optional expansion book, with one more coming soon, and the promise of further releases as we go. And in the second book, new tiles for Necromunda Underhive.

So please. Just stop.

Still talking tiles? I'm not talking 2d/3d here.

That one game got juves or not?

I'm just wondering because if we planned to play a game of Necromunda 2017 edition, we could end up showing up with completely incompatible gangs. You could play the game with all the expansions, all the gangs, all the skills and all the weapons. I could end up playing a different version of the same game. A version that only has 2 gangs, no juves, only 11 skills and 15 equipments. A version that will receive no further development, a dead obsolete version.

If you read the Necromunda books, you will find (at least) 2 games, not one. Those two games are incompatible with each other.

The. Juves. Are. An. Expansion. To. Necromunda. Underhive.

What's so difficult to grasp about that?

Is Far Harbor a different game to Fallout 4?

How about Nuka-World?

No. They're not. They're expansions. That they contain stuff not in the main game is their entire point. Jeeebs!

The Juves belong to a complete replacement house list, not expanding on the already existing house lists in the rulebook (they are obsolete). I'm not talking about things that expand, I'm talking about things that replace (equipment, skills, scenarios, prices, house lists). I'll make my arguments in a separate thread, not to pollute this any further.

No one but you cares about the intro rules. No one but you thinks the intro rules are a whole separate game. No one cares that the demo gang lists and the few skills give aren't 'expanded upon' except you. No one but you has put as much thought into this non-topic non-issue as you.

And you constant repetition of 'Still talking 2d/3d' is getting really damned obnoxious, made all the more ironic by the fact that you're the one still going on about a subject no one else thinks about, let alone cares about.

He's got his own thread now. Let's let this die shall we?

 Flinty wrote:
He's got his own thread now. Let's let this die shall we?

He suffers from some sort of attention deficit.

 Albertorius wrote:
In case anyone's interested, I've noticed that the Shieldmaidens and the new GW's Escher parts mix decently enough:




They have a bit too much mail, of course, but seeing as how everyone but the juves have armor now, well...

Those look rockin'! Those are Shieldwolf? Do they come as a set? All I found are individuals on their site.

I was caught out by that too- there is one plastic set, but the thumbnail picture is not obvious.

Haighus wrote:They look awesome!

Infantryman wrote:Those look rockin'! Those are Shieldwolf? Do they come as a set? All I found are individuals on their site.

Thanks!

Yup, those are Shieldwolf's plastic Shieldmaidens. Here you go:

http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=134

If you want to use the Escher heads with the shieldmaiden bodies you'll need to fill a bit the neck hole, but other than that they work basically as-is. And conversely, if you want to use the SM heads on the Escher bodies you'll need to cut their necks (plus, some heads will work better than others: IME the ones with flowing hair work better). The SM arms seems to work on the Escher bodies without much modification.

Because I can’t let the thread of inanity and circular logic be the first peeps see in the New Year.

Happy new year all. Good luck with your underhiving endeavours over the coming year!