I found all the talk about Sanguinius very interesting, but as a IF player it left me wondering;
- How would i bring back each primarch (loyal or traitor) to 40k?
- How could it be done to keep to the current fluff dynamic?
- How could you create an interesting story line between said primarch and the current setting?
Im interested to know how you'd do it? with who? and for what effect?
Personally I think 1 Primarch is enough for the Imperium, keep the rest in 30k where they belong.
I wish they hadn't chosen Roboute though, imagine if it was Corax who had returned and was forced into a position of leadership over the Imperium that he wasn't comfortable with.
I think the deamon Primarchs returning is OK for the current storyline as part of the smash and grab Chaos are doing on the galaxy.
It would be interesting if Slanneesh was destroyed by Ynnead, and then Fulgrim exploited the situation to effectively make himself the fourth Chaos god.
I would bring back one more loyalist Primarch so that he and Roboute can take turns holding the conflict ball.
Roboute has had some time to get himself stuck in, and no-one is really standing up to him. There are lots of "this could boil over" tensions sitting their waiting though...
- Rejection of Primaris Marines by the older Marines ("they don't have any of our flaws, they aren't true Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Marines Malevolent" etc)
- Cawl setting himself up for a massive power grab for both the AdMech and himself personally
- Roboute's straight thinking vs 10,000 years of religious zeal
- Inquisition and other factions becoming suspicious of Roboute's effortless assumption of leadership of the Imperium, essentially being the new Emperor
- Reformation of the Legions in all but name - the Primaris are being bred fast and they are not sticking to the 1,000 Marines rule anymore. Plus, senior figures are being appointment to rule over huge numbers of chapters, starting with Dante, who Roboute essentially declared official master of all the Sons of Sanguinius.
As for who I would bring back, either Lion'el or Sanguinius for the delicious conflict between the two/three. Their interractions are great in the Imperium Secundus side-story of the HH series because while they are all well-meaning, they are all also deeply flaws and single-minded in a "their way is the right way" manner.
I don't want the Imperium to split into two factions, but some high-level infighting would be very welcome.
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: I would bring back one more loyalist Primarch so that he and Roboute can take turns holding the conflict ball.
Roboute has had some time to get himself stuck in, and no-one is really standing up to him. There are lots of "this could boil over" tensions sitting their waiting though...
- Rejection of Primaris Marines by the older Marines ("they don't have any of our flaws, they aren't true Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Marines Malevolent" etc)
- Cawl setting himself up for a massive power grab for both the AdMech and himself personally
- Roboute's straight thinking vs 10,000 years of religious zeal
- Inquisition and other factions becoming suspicious of Roboute's effortless assumption of leadership of the Imperium, essentially being the new Emperor
- Reformation of the Legions in all but name - the Primaris are being bred fast and they are not sticking to the 1,000 Marines rule anymore. Plus, senior figures are being appointment to rule over huge numbers of chapters, starting with Dante, who Roboute essentially declared official master of all the Sons of Sanguinius.
As for who I would bring back, either Lion'el or Sanguinius for the delicious conflict between the two/three. Their interractions are great in the Imperium Secundus side-story of the HH series because while they are all well-meaning, they are all also deeply flaws and single-minded in a "their way is the right way" manner.
I don't want the Imperium to split into two factions, but some high-level infighting would be very welcome.
Yeah, from a story point of view, it would be best to bring back someone who was going to be in conflict with Bobby G, if not in open War, then simply in a strong disagreement.
I don’t think there’d be as much interest in say, Corax, Khan, or Vulkan coming back as there would be with say Russ, or the Lion. Hey will likely bring back one of the big chapters primarchs. I think am obvious choice would be Dorn, zealous, and with a ready made Legion to back him up in the form of the Black Templars.
i have to agree with Formosa, i think it would be better to bring back one of the lesser used primarchs, as i think it would give more leeway in the story.
having said that as much as id love to see vulkan back, and he's the easies to bring back i think he'd probably get on to well with guilliman.
i think Khan or Corax would be best. the current setting seems to fit khan well as he can crash from hunt to hunt, but if they want conflict with out all out war the coral would be better as he tried and failed at his own genetic manipulations so would likely have a strong reaction to the primaris
I'd like to see the Lion and Corvax and Dorn with Vulkan, but only in those pairs.
My Best case scenario would to have 2 declare for the Guliman's newer, slightly more hopeful imperium and 2 for the Russ's more traditional grimdark one. Than we could have a proper Imperial civil war.
I'd like to see the Lion and Corvax and Dorn with Vulkan, but only in those pairs.
My Best case scenario would to have 2 declare for the Guliman's newer, slightly more hopeful imperium and 2 for the Russ's more traditional grimdark one. Than we could have a proper Imperial civil war.
I sincerly doubt Russ would openly challange Gulliman, my read on the character is he'd be happy to let Gulliman know where he thought he was screwing up and they'd proably argue and debate in private.
I'd like to see the Lion and Corvax and Dorn with Vulkan, but only in those pairs.
My Best case scenario would to have 2 declare for the Guliman's newer, slightly more hopeful imperium and 2 for the Russ's more traditional grimdark one. Than we could have a proper Imperial civil war.
I sincerly doubt Russ would openly challange Gulliman, my read on the character is he'd be happy to let Gulliman know where he thought he was screwing up and they'd proably argue and debate in private.
Russ is loyal. But independent..
Yeah he would agree for greater good in public.
And debate freicely, questioning, challenge his brother intensely in private.
They respect each other ernough to not question there authority in open and deal with it in safety of private qauters well guarded from hearing.
I have loved the Night Lords since the 3.5 codex, but I would hate to see Kurze ever come back.
Much like Iron Hands, and Blood Angels, losing their primarch is a big part of their backstory. No amount of retcon would feel right. Just wake up the Emperor too at that point.
goundry wrote: i have to agree with Formosa, i think it would be better to bring back one of the lesser used primarchs, as i think it would give more leeway in the story.
It would be interesting to see GW try and add to the "big 4" chapters by bringing back one of the smaller chapter's primarch; imagine seeing a chapter other than UM, DA,BA,SW on a starter set.
For me id love to see Dorn return having aged the 10 millenia in eye or as captive or whatever... but instead of having a Guilliman-esque transposition from 30k to 40k, have a Primarch who has aged and matured (maybe grown in power? nobody knows what truly happens to a 10 thousand year old primarch yet do they?) over the years (whether in captivity/exile/etc) return and have a completely different outlook on the imperium and its operation...
Leading to .... Codex: Sons of Dorn - covering IF, BT, CF
Part of the problem with bringing Dorn back is a lot of what Guilliman is actually doing with the Imperium is largely in step with what he himself would do: declare a crusade, buff up what chapters remained and make an aggressive push past the warp scar to prevent it from walling off half of the galaxy.
The only angle I could see if they brought him back now would be for him to believe Guilliman was making a power grab and to resist him in that front, or else fall in line.
Dorn and Guilliman are easily the least theme-obsessed of the loyalist primaries and thus both work well as reasonable authority figures and if there was to be an Imperial schism with two potentially 'correct' sides it would have to be split that way. I just don't see how they'd come into conflict now as Guilliman is doing the very things he last chastised Dorn for doing 10000 years prior.
I'd like to see the Lion and Corvax and Dorn with Vulkan, but only in those pairs.
My Best case scenario would to have 2 declare for the Guliman's newer, slightly more hopeful imperium and 2 for the Russ's more traditional grimdark one. Than we could have a proper Imperial civil war.
I sincerly doubt Russ would openly challange Gulliman, my read on the character is he'd be happy to let Gulliman know where he thought he was screwing up and they'd proably argue and debate in private.
The thing I liked about Russ was that he always did his own thing. He's defied Gulliman on multiple occasions - even going so far to tell him to f- off about the second founding. He was also the Emperor's personal attack dog and had no qualms about going to war with fellow primarchs
Moreover he is the most grimdark and traditionalist of the loyalist primarchs. I think he'd be far more at home in the traditional grimdark imperium than gulliman ever will. Even if it doesn't come to civil war I expect that the two would be constantly butting heads.
Can you imagine the Russ's reaction when gulliman sends him a list of instructions for increasing culture on fenris?
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Nightlord1987 wrote: I have loved the Night Lords since the 3.5 codex, but I would hate to see Kurze ever come back.
Much like Iron Hands, and Blood Angels, losing their primarch is a big part of their backstory. No amount of retcon would feel right. Just wake up the Emperor too at that point.
It would feel like a big FU to Kurze. His vindication came from his death. Can you imagine how world shattering it would be to be resurrected after that?
We are going to get a titan-class Emperor model at some point. It's inevtible and it'll cause months of nerd rage.
Surely Vulkan makes the most sense. He's a Perpetual, so therefore he's got to be around here somewhere - even if, as War Of The Beast revealed, he's none too happy about it
Vulkan, Russ and Alpharius. So we already got 2 traitor Primarchs, we need an equal amount of loyalist Primarchs I feel. Vulkan is a great character and one of the most fitting Primarchs to come back, Russ has all kinds of epic actions and is a foil to Guilliman and Alpharius because let's face it, he probably never left in the first place. Alternatively, instead of Alpharius, Lorgar would also be pretty neat being Guilliman's biggest rival and all.
Primarchs absolutely not to bring back: Sanguinius - he dead. Ferrus Manus - he is even more dead. Jaghatai Khan - who was this guy again? Barely any fluff about him, don't think anyone is missing him. Rogal Dorn - Booooring. Also, dead. And if they bring him back they have to bring back Perty as well. Can't have Dorn without Perty. Angron - Even more booooooooooooring. All slaughter and no play makes Angron a dull boy. Still, I do think he is the one we are going to see, since we already got the Primarchs dedicated to Tzeentch and Nurgle, so the fact we are also going to get the one dedicated to Khorne is pretty obvious. I'd rather see Lorgar though.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I have loved the Night Lords since the 3.5 codex, but I would hate to see Kurze ever come back.
Much like Iron Hands, and Blood Angels, losing their primarch is a big part of their backstory. No amount of retcon would feel right. Just wake up the Emperor too at that point.
It would feel like a big FU to Kurze. His vindication came from his death. Can you imagine how world shattering it would be to be resurrected after that?
Even if it was as a daemon prince of Malal?
Yeah, it'd be bs if he'd somehow survived his beheading and has for some reason been hiding for the last 10k years... but wouldn't it be kind of fitting if Curze's certainty about his own fate damned him again?
Any of the remaining traitor primarchs
They show up outta the warp
The lion: some one finally checks the basement
Dorn: finally comes outta hiding
Khan: finally finished his rally with the dark eldar and heads home
Russ: gets done dicking around in the warp, saves iesha (eldar godess of fertility my head Canon of what I hope happens)
Vulkan: someone steals him back from that one clepto necron
Sanguinius: they find his dead body and leave him dead.
all that was recovered was his hand, it's possiable he's been kept in some chaos marine prison foir the past 10k years or something.
After 10k years of anal rape by Emperor's Children... he'd be broken, and I'd be OK with that.
All we know about his death is he was lost on a despoiler class Battleship named the Sword of Sacrilege, we don't know the Legion involved. If any (for all we know it was a heretic naval vessel and Rogal Dorn fell to a lucky Naval rating with a shot gun) In fact my gut feeling is if it's ever eistablished it WON'T be the Emperor's children simply because they already had the distinction of having wacked another Primarch. (Gulliman)
all that was recovered was his hand, it's possiable he's been kept in some chaos marine prison foir the past 10k years or something.
After 10k years of anal rape by Emperor's Children... he'd be broken, and I'd be OK with that.
All we know about his death is he was lost on a despoiler class Battleship named the Sword of Sacrilege, we don't know the Legion involved. If any (for all we know it was a heretic naval vessel and Rogal Dorn fell to a lucky Naval rating with a shot gun) In fact my gut feeling is if it's ever eistablished it WON'T be the Emperor's children simply because they already had the distinction of having wacked another Primarch. (Gulliman)
I think Curze had a vision of him "being dragged down a dark corridor by a hundred murderers"... so maybe the night lords? but hell, if there was a ever a description of an easy to get out of situation for a demi god.... its that one.
And i too would hate for any of the dead ones to just re-appear, but i do like the idea of Kurze being introduced as some demon-primarch ascended after making a pact with Malal before his death? would be a great way to introduce another God and range of demons.
Its already been said, but yeah dorn never died he was lost on a ship, which honestly, 40k follows the Game of Thrones rule. Unless the die on screen, they are not dead. But sanguineus is def dead because we saw bird boy get slashed to death and his death was pivotal to the emperor killing Horus.
Vulkan will come around to fight for the Imperium, albeit still a bit of a rogue element, and still a bit insane.
The Khan will finally return from the webway (I don't know, maybe he's been in the gladiator pits of Comorragh for ten millennia, maybe he's been chilling with the Harlequin, maybe he's just been killing things)
Corax will emerge from the eye of terror. It'll be really funny if in his timeframe it's only been a few years while outside ten thousand have passed.
Russ will do the same.
Even as an Imperial Fists player, I can't say whether or not I want Dorn to come back. But if he does I absolutely want him to argue with Guiliman about how much the Imperium's armies declined thanks to his Codex and other legislating.
I'm also not sure if I want the Lion back, but I'd want him to the same as Dorn.
And as a Blood Angels player it's actually important to me that Sanguinius stay dead. I wasn't his and Ferrus' deaths to have meaning.
I'd find it cool to see Russ return as a real insane daemonic Wolfprince. Or wulfen Daemonprince . Would offer some cool stories about how the imperium handles him. On the one hand he's a primarch and fighting Chaos like crazy, on the other hand he's tainted and could even punch Guilliman down.
all that was recovered was his hand, it's possiable he's been kept in some chaos marine prison foir the past 10k years or something.
After 10k years of anal rape by Emperor's Children... he'd be broken, and I'd be OK with that.
All we know about his death is he was lost on a despoiler class Battleship named the Sword of Sacrilege, we don't know the Legion involved. If any (for all we know it was a heretic naval vessel and Rogal Dorn fell to a lucky Naval rating with a shot gun) In fact my gut feeling is if it's ever eistablished it WON'T be the Emperor's children simply because they already had the distinction of having wacked another Primarch. (Gulliman)
I think Curze had a vision of him "being dragged down a dark corridor by a hundred murderers"... so maybe the night lords? but hell, if there was a ever a description of an easy to get out of situation for a demi god.... its that one.
And i too would hate for any of the dead ones to just re-appear, but i do like the idea of Kurze being introduced as some demon-primarch ascended after making a pact with Malal before his death? would be a great way to introduce another God and range of demons.
People need to give up on Malal. GW doesn't own the exclusive rights to Malal so you'll never see them take the risk. At best you'd get a similar chaos god with a different name and symbol.
I actually want him to be an Admech Lord of War, that has a special rule that makes the Iron Hands get bonuses against an army that includes it because they hate the idea so much.
What I envision is some kind of cybernetic frankenstein, headless, but attached to a selection of servitor brains in jars. The body's superhuman metabolism keeps it alive and functioning. An AI that runs on brains like the Cawl Inferior could control it, and it would be a close-combat monster with a big gun or a few little guns as well (But not both).
Here's how I envision the unit: "Ferrus Reborn" Adeptus Mechanicus Lord of War
Faction Keywords: Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, Cult Mechanicus
Unit Keywords: Character, Monster, Ferrus Manus
Statline is: M: 8" WS: 3+ BS: 4+ S: 6 T: 10 W: 11 A: 5 LD:10 Sv: 2+ Wargear: Living Metal Hands, Cacophona Omnissiah, Mauler Bolt Cannon
Living Metal Hands: Strength: User, AP -2, 3 damage, but doubles the number of attacks this unit makes with this weapon, OR Strength: x2, AP -4, 3d3 damage.
Mauler Bolt Cannon: 24" Heavy 3, str 6, AP -2, 2 damage
Cacophona Omnissiah: All friendly units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability on the battlefield always count as being under the Chant of the Iron Soul in addition to the normal Canticles.
Abilities/Special Rules: Cybernetic Monstrosity: The lumbering, frankenstinian gait of this unit allows for easy stabilization and control even over the roughest terrain. The unit may move and fire without suffering the penalty for heavy weapons, though it may only advance d3". However, it may charge after advancing.
Sanctioned Blasphemy: While the Mechanicus may believe this is a triumph of enlightened knowledge, the Iron Hands have a different opinion... Enemy Iron Hands units get +1 Attack if this unit is on the same battlefield. No Iron Hands units may ever be friendly units.
Posthuman Transmorgification: The Emperor's genecraft augmented by the Mechanicus's transhuman technological terrors is truly a sight to behold. This unit has a 3+ Invulnerable save. Furthermore, it may heal d3 wounds at the beginning of any turn. Such are the mysteries of its construction, however, that it may not regain wounds in any other way while on the battlefield.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I'd find it cool to see Russ return as a real insane daemonic Wolfprince. Or wulfen Daemonprince . Would offer some cool stories about how the imperium handles him. On the one hand he's a primarch and fighting Chaos like crazy, on the other hand he's tainted and could even punch Guilliman down.
Awed by his return, hundreds of Space Wolves kneel before their progenitor...
His voice is a deep rumble, full of confidence and wisdom...
"My sons. I have been gone a long time. I have reflected on the best way forward since the entombment of my father. I have traveled long and deep to find this answer"
All of them so they get the goofy AoS treatment, then the pain of whfb shall be shared by all.
I would love the blood angle guy to come back with full fledged vampire wings and fangs swooping down from the sky connected to the ground by a stupid ribbon. Only if he is like 2 feet tall and every inch has a picture on it tho :p.
all that was recovered was his hand, it's possiable he's been kept in some chaos marine prison foir the past 10k years or something.
After 10k years of anal rape by Emperor's Children... he'd be broken, and I'd be OK with that.
All we know about his death is he was lost on a despoiler class Battleship named the Sword of Sacrilege, we don't know the Legion involved. If any (for all we know it was a heretic naval vessel and Rogal Dorn fell to a lucky Naval rating with a shot gun) In fact my gut feeling is if it's ever eistablished it WON'T be the Emperor's children simply because they already had the distinction of having wacked another Primarch. (Gulliman)
I think Curze had a vision of him "being dragged down a dark corridor by a hundred murderers"... so maybe the night lords? but hell, if there was a ever a description of an easy to get out of situation for a demi god.... its that one.
And i too would hate for any of the dead ones to just re-appear, but i do like the idea of Kurze being introduced as some demon-primarch ascended after making a pact with Malal before his death? would be a great way to introduce another God and range of demons.
People need to give up on Malal. GW doesn't own the exclusive rights to Malal so you'll never see them take the risk. At best you'd get a similar chaos god with a different name and symbol.
Also, Malal was never a thing in 40k in the first place. Malal is from Fantasy. The only thing we got in 40k is a few old things written about the 'Sons of Malice' who worship a 'god' named Malice that has many of the attributes of Malal. And that is before mentioning that the stories of Malal are very ancient fluff and have been retconned several times.
So, although there is no such thing as Malal in 40k, Malice was never exactly retconned. So while people still can make up their own stuff about Malice, the chance we are ever going to see GW do anything with it. Not only is the concept silly, but GW indeed doesn't own the rights to Malal, and Malice is too generic to be copyrighted. If you want though, I think there is at least one store out there who is making miniatures of the daemons of Malice/Malal.
But imho, introducing more Chaos gods is not a good idea. Four is enough.
I think I've been revising my opinion on what would happen when Johnson wakes up, especially if he's the next one to come back.
I used to think he'd be kosher with everything that had been going on, as he never had aspirations to be the top dog among his brother primarchs, and he was content to let Guilliman handle the "ruling" as long as he was in charge of the fighting.
I've started thinking though, more along the lines of the what changed after Johnson went down. The Codex Astartes, when Guilliman forced his will on all of the loyalist Legions, and forced them to break up into powers that would no longer be strong enough to cause another Heresy... or oppose Guilliman.
Johnson was worried that Guillimans thirst for control would lead to attempts to take over. It's why he was ready to go to war the instant his fleet showed up at Macragge during the Heresy. Now he would wake up, find that Guilliman himself had forced his Legion to break up into small fighting forces, and is now being further forced to serve his will, he's going to be pissed. When he goes to meet his brother, and finds him holding their fathers sword... well, I'd be willing to bet things could get real ugly.
I'd like to see multiple "descendants" of alpharius come out, all kind of him but not, better than a spacemarine but worse than a primarch, when one dies a nearby legionnaire drinks their blood and becomes the new descendant.
I sincerly doubt Russ would openly challange Gulliman, my read on the character is he'd be happy to let Gulliman know where he thought he was screwing up and they'd proably argue and debate in private.
I agree. Guilliman consider Russ one of the "Dauntless few", i.e. one of the Brothers he respected the most (the others being Dorn, Sangy and Ferrus). That respect alone should be enough to keep troubles at bay, even if they do have disagreements.
The Lion would be much more interesting as the whole Imperium Secundus storyline would be given a reboot on a larger scale. Having said that, I can see Gulliman appointing the Lion as his Warmaster (the role he always wanted) which would allow Guilliman some breathing room to get the Imperium into a better shape.
I believe Russ and the Lion will be the next loyalist Primarchs to be released (probably in that order). To be fair, any of the other Loyalist Primarchs could turn up at any time that is dramatically appropriate since most of them are simply MIA. Only Ferrus and Sanguinius are properly dead and should probably be left that way (along with Kurze and Horus on the Chaos side). Anyone else is fair game.
Could be a false lead but Dorn technically has a spare pair of Primarch-sized hands available should he need to fake his own death and disappear.
Alpharius was smaller than the other Primarchs. I'm sure someone would have noticed if Dorn'd left behind a midget-primarch hand.
Alpharius was the size of a large Astartes as the AL tended to be slightly larger than other legionaries and he could masquerade as a tall Alpha Legionary when he needed to. So maybe he was 10-20% smaller than Dorn but who would recognize that difference in a skeletal hand. How many people do you think closely examined Dorn's hands enough to notice that the skeletal remains were slightly smaller than they should be? They find a hand larger than a regular Astartes, no Dorn, and assume the worst.
I don't know if it is true but it is a plot hook they have obviously left open. I rather like the idea that IF Chapter Masters have spent the last 10,000 years carving their names on Alpharius' hand bones.
Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
I hope that when GW bring other loyalist Primarchs(and they will) that with the exception of the Lion there not just straight ports of there 30k selves. Even with warp/webway/stasis shenanigans they should all be affected by the lives they led after the Heresy.
I'd like to see an "old man" Russ. Still deadly as heck but a lot wiser and maybe more of a mysterious shaman type. I do like Backspacehacker's idea of him somehow saving Isha from Nurgle's garden as well. It could lay the ground for some interesting developments within the Eldar and for there dynamic with the Imperium as well.
GoatboyBeta wrote: I hope that when GW bring other loyalist Primarchs(and they will) that with the exception of the Lion there not just straight ports of there 30k selves. Even with warp/webway/stasis shenanigans they should all be affected by the lives they led after the Heresy.
I'd like to see an "old man" Russ. Still deadly as heck but a lot wiser and maybe more of a mysterious shaman type. I do like Backspacehacker's idea of him somehow saving Isha from Nurgle's garden as well. It could lay the ground for some interesting developments within the Eldar and for there dynamic with the Imperium as well.
I'd agree with you there. Seeing Vulkan now would be very interesting.
The Utterly Annihilated should remain utterly annihilated.
The Dead should remain dead unless there's a plot goldmine that needs that particular Primarch resurrected (which would be rarer than mercy in a cat). Death can mean effective annihilation (soul eaten/torn apart by demons), but it doesn't have to be so. Reborn as a Greater Daemon of the Emperor (Ferrus) or through the body of their children (Sanguinius/Sanguinor) isn't going to make them what they were before, but it is a viable avenue for return.
The MIA should come back when the plot allows (because at this point the CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG - Primarchs are back on both sides of the axis that GW actually cares about, the Imperium/Chaos divide - and a universe in which the Imperium has a single, unopposed-from-within Primarch figure uniting it isn't nearly grimdark enough to fit). Fluff is flexible, and the Imperium will need all the extra potency it can get to handle the ever-encroaching invasions of everything-not-human.
Some Primarchs are unclear which category they fall under. Horus is the only guaranteed "Utterly Annihilated" case I'm aware of, though with his power up, it would potentially be within Horus' potential to have done the same to Sanguinius.
Sanguinius could merely be in the "He's dead, Jim" category, alongside Kurze and Ferrus. Alpharius and Omegon could both be in this category, or they could both be in the "MIA" category (fuckin' Alpha legion, man).
Any of the MIA could also be in the "dead as a doornail" category just because their current fate is a mystery, but I doubt GW has the capability of giving a Primarch a off-screen death properly.
In the short term, and without significant advancement of the plot (which I sincerely doubt will be permanently stopped by GW - I suspect each new edition will involve advances in the story line), I'd want to see Corvax return. Corvax, above all other Primarchs, would be most disturbed and worried about the Primaris project, and I don't doubt that would open up a more potent "I told you so" moment when some Primaris eventually get corrupted.
The Lion would make another decent addition given the internal tension it would create in the Imperium (both Guilliman and the Lion are loyal, but their methods differ enough to create internal strife without also causing a full-blown civil war), and with Luther escaping from the Rock, I'm guessing he's been given the plot go-ahead/excuse to be present in 40k.
Russ could also return given apocalyptic events that happened in their home system, but I don't see much in the way of plots he would be useful for - he could make the extremely depleted Space Wolves relevant again, which isn't nothing, but as discussed previously, he seems like he'd follow Guilliman's lead too much for the right amount of Primarch-level rival-tension.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
Did you not read the part where the lion executed one of his most trusted adjutants(Nemiel) for reminding the lion of the Nimea edict when he reinstate the libraians?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
I agree. Remember it was Gav Thorpe who planted the rumours about the Lion's disloyalty in the 3rd Ed DA codex. Gave Thorpe has also been writing most of the DA novels for the HH and has gone to great pains to show the Lion as being loyal. However he is also a jerk who manages to piss enough people off that Luther is abole to convince at least the DAs on Caliban that the Lion is no longer their friend.
For Curze it would be interesting if when the assassin supposedly killed him that instead it resulted in the death of his Night Haunter persona but the Cruze side was able to survive. Cruze still hates his own legion and would probably see the rest of chaos as the same sort of filth he both hunted down in his early days and the same sort of abomination he saw in his own legion. He most likely wouldn't join the IoM again given that his reputation and his physical appearance is increasingly that of a monster. Where he could have a place is in the Dark Imperium where he can rally the humans left out of the Light of the Emperor and fight to establish a realm free from both the blinding light of Big E (and his pawns like Gulliman) and also free from the blight of chaos.
Would make for a more interesting narrative to have more noticeable internal conflict within humanity and allow for the introduction of rules for non IoM guard, astartes, ad mech, etc that isn't also chaos. Wouldn't even need new model kits as they can use the same kits and just recommend striping off any Aquilas or other IoM iconography.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
Did you not read the part where the lion executed one of his most trusted adjutants(Nemiel) for reminding the lion of the Nimea edict when he reinstate the libraians?
Yes, that makes him an donkey-cave, not a traitor. And Nemiel wasn't just "reminding" him of Nikea. He was about to blow the Librarian's head off, in complete contradiction to Jonson's orders. And next you're going to throw out how he gave the weapons to Perturabo, but guess what. Not even the Emperor knew that Perturabo was a traitor at that point, so I guess that makes him suspect as well? Jonson had every opportunity in the world to seal the fate of the galaxy. He had the opportunity to destroy both the Ultramarines and Blood Angels at any point, ensuring the total success of the Heresy. He could have at any point joined in with the three traitor legions he spent most of the war fighting, yet never did. The second he learned of the Heresy, he took steps to try to ensure Horus couldn't get his hands on weapons he'd need to storm Terra, and later on when no one was "watching" he was still fighting the legions that turned traitor, shattering the Nightlords, when even if he was just planning on sitting out and seeing who would win, he didn't need to do.
GW is missing a massive money-grab opportunity if they dont bring back some more loyalist primarchs. The balanced move would be to bring back a loyalist and a demon primarch around the same time, I can see the marketing plan now...
The Lion: Is brought back by Gulliman, im sure you could get several books worth of fluff from this act alone. Have some immediate internal conflict with gulliman but maintain appearances. Before too much conflict can happen fulgrim appears and gulliman seeks vengeance.
Fulgrim: Appears from the warp at near legion strength +demons after so many of his astartes went to find his demon world. Because of the path of slaanesh he has an unusual number of demon princes in his legion. He's fighting the dark eldar and inadvertantly releases another primarch.
khan: who beelines back to his legion. Fulgrim follows him back and finds the ultramarines are soon upon him.
lorgar: Is called by fulgrim for assistance who was conveniently waiting for this moment. Lorgar brings his errant brother angron aswell which turns the tide of battle significantly.
Angron: On a crusade of blood with lorgar to confront khan and gulliman.
Vulkan: Meanwhile the salamanders finish their tome of fire checklist and vulkan comes back. He heads to the fighting aswell which is now in loyalist favor with the salamanders significant flamers punishing angrons world eaters.
Perturabo: Comes back to support lorgar in what is now a massive conflict. Ends up forcing a loyalist retreat. Betrays fulgrim super hard and destroys half his legion after fighting at his side against the loyalists because of what happened in descent of angels. Fulgrim lashes out and attacks mredengard with chaotic weapons but accidentally unleashes another primarch.
Russ: Emerges from the iron warriors homeworld and beelines back his old chapter. Somehow has corax with him. Perturabo had capturedt hem and kept them both alive to extract gene-seed for his iron warriors. His iron warriors are so numerous now as to rival the numbers of ultramarines.
Corax: Is super salty about being chained up in perturabo's dungeon and feels even wierder about the numarines but deals with it. He basically got his ass saved by russ so agrees to go take revenge on magnus with him. Somehow assassinates abaddon on the way there.
Dorn, ferrus manus, night haunter, horus, alpharius omegon all stay dead or missing in m opinion.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
Did you not read the part where the lion executed one of his most trusted adjutants(Nemiel) for reminding the lion of the Nimea edict when he reinstate the libraians?
Yes, that makes him an donkey-cave, not a traitor. And Nemiel wasn't just "reminding" him of Nikea. He was about to blow the Librarian's head off, in complete contradiction to Jonson's orders. And next you're going to throw out how he gave the weapons to Perturabo, but guess what. Not even the Emperor knew that Perturabo was a traitor at that point, so I guess that makes him suspect as well? Jonson had every opportunity in the world to seal the fate of the galaxy. He had the opportunity to destroy both the Ultramarines and Blood Angels at any point, ensuring the total success of the Heresy. He could have at any point joined in with the three traitor legions he spent most of the war fighting, yet never did. The second he learned of the Heresy, he took steps to try to ensure Horus couldn't get his hands on weapons he'd need to storm Terra, and later on when no one was "watching" he was still fighting the legions that turned traitor, shattering the Nightlords, when even if he was just planning on sitting out and seeing who would win, he didn't need to do.
Yet he's still "suspect". Yeah, right...
we get it, you're the lion's fan boy; no loyalist executing their own unless its the only resort(see sangunius executing the blood raged as an act of mercy, corax on the gene deformed, dorn confine his librarians), his direct actions of executing Nemiel opened up half of his legion gone rogue, Nemiel's best childhood friend, zarkariel(spelling?) decide the lion was worthless to follow, so did his adopted father, though there was some corruption from chaos.
The dark angels chapter is a poster boy for SHAME, SHAME, DING, DING, DING! I just listened to the 'Pandorax', the GK ancient master origin from the DA didn't want anything to do with what became of them now, the audio drama 'deathwatch, the last guardian' show exactly what the DA chapter are about, backstabbing traitorous marines with no honor.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Yes, he has been several times. He's stated as much to Curze. He proved it when he showed Guilliman and Sanguinius that Terra still stood, something he was ready to give his life for so they knew it and could try to get there and save it. He further proved his loyalty in the journey to Terra. He had Russ convinced. The only people who still grab at those straws are those who are just wanting it to be so. No other loyalist Primarch has been as strenuously shown how deep their loyalty goes, and people like you are still questioning it.
Did you not read the part where the lion executed one of his most trusted adjutants(Nemiel) for reminding the lion of the Nimea edict when he reinstate the libraians?
Yes, that makes him an donkey-cave, not a traitor. And Nemiel wasn't just "reminding" him of Nikea. He was about to blow the Librarian's head off, in complete contradiction to Jonson's orders. And next you're going to throw out how he gave the weapons to Perturabo, but guess what. Not even the Emperor knew that Perturabo was a traitor at that point, so I guess that makes him suspect as well? Jonson had every opportunity in the world to seal the fate of the galaxy. He had the opportunity to destroy both the Ultramarines and Blood Angels at any point, ensuring the total success of the Heresy. He could have at any point joined in with the three traitor legions he spent most of the war fighting, yet never did. The second he learned of the Heresy, he took steps to try to ensure Horus couldn't get his hands on weapons he'd need to storm Terra, and later on when no one was "watching" he was still fighting the legions that turned traitor, shattering the Nightlords, when even if he was just planning on sitting out and seeing who would win, he didn't need to do.
Yet he's still "suspect". Yeah, right...
we get it, you're the lion's fan boy; no loyalist executing their own unless its the only resort(see sangunius executing the blood raged as an act of mercy, corax on the gene deformed, dorn confine his librarians), his direct actions of executing Nemiel opened up half of his legion gone rogue, Nemiel's best childhood friend, zarkariel(spelling?) decide the lion was worthless to follow, so did his adopted father, though there was some corruption from chaos.
The dark angels chapter is a poster boy for SHAME, SHAME, DING, DING, DING! I just listened to the 'Pandorax', the GK ancient master origin from the DA didn't want anything to do with what became of them now, the audio drama 'deathwatch, the last guardian' show exactly what the DA chapter are about, backstabbing traitorous marines with no honor.
He's not "the Lion's fanboy" he's right and is using facts and logic to back himself up. Meanwhile you are simply using a "no true scotsman fallacy" and a bunch of unrelated bits (we can argue the current loyalty of the dark angels chapter. but that doesn't mean the Lion was disloyal)
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.
Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.
The Lion sided with the winners. He wouldn't go chaos unless he honestly believed they could take terra. That's the shame of the Dark Angels - their primarch didn't pick sides, which allowed the chapter to split during the heresy. He conveitntly showed up after the siege of Terra and then declared for the emperor after the loyalists won.
ChargerIIC wrote: The Lion sided with the winners. He wouldn't go chaos unless he honestly believed they could take terra. That's the shame of the Dark Angels - their primarch didn't pick sides, which allowed the chapter to split during the heresy. He conveitntly showed up after the siege of Terra and then declared for the emperor after the loyalists won.
And here was have another example of someone who hasn't read a single bit of the Dark Angels story during the Horus Heresy.
Lorgar's return to the field could be interesting. During the Horus Heresy he created a warp storm that cut off all of Ultramar. What if he had a hand in creating the Cicatrix Maledictum and that's what he's been doing for the last ten millennia? It would certainly be threatening to think the daemon primarchs weren't just waiting, but preparing as well.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.
Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
lliu wrote: There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.
It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.
The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.
Big Mac wrote: Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.
Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.
So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.
If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.
There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?
Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.
Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.
Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
That's a good thing, space jesus should stay a martyr. Nimiel wasn't just some space marine line troop killed by friendly fire in the heat of battle, he was a 1st chaplain or some sort, the lion could have lock him up like dorn did to his librarians; instead he took him to a shady corner and did a shady thing, something that the DA chapter followed suit.
Pretty much all of them could be brought back if GW wants the money. They're all either given plot hooks for potential returns or still in existence. Retcons are nothing compared to the almighty dollar (or pound, in this case). They all should have major events associated with them, though.
Here's some ideas based on current hooks:
Russ: lost in the warp, Bring him back when they push the Inquisition codex with a campaign event: Inquisitors and Deathwatch start a purge against the Wolves for the Wulfen Heresy, Russ returns as basically an enormous werewolf in power armor but completely rational, proving that the Canis Helix can be controlled. They team up and beat on the Thousand Sons, who get their codex as well during the campaign.
Corax: lost in the warp. He's one of the primarchs who doesn't really fit into the narrative so much, and is head of only a minorly popular chapter/legion. Have him return as the harbinger of a major Chaos incursion, probably with actual wings and claws from his time in the Eye.
Khan: lost in the Webway. Bring him back with a campaign centered around the Dark Eldar, as he's been harrying them for however long it's been in the warp.
Ferrus: dead, but cloned/head sent to Mars. Another who doesn't fit into the narrative, plus his death is fairly central to the character of his chapter/legion. Bring him back in a super dreadnought/knight body during a campaign of Admech vs Necrons when the Dragon wakes up.
Dorn: dead, maybe, only found his hand/hands. Dorn the unbreakable has been in Perturabo's "care" for the whole time. Bring him back in a big chaos event focused the Iron Warriors/Black Legion.
Lion: asleep. This one's easy, just have him wake up. Probably during the same event as Russ returns for the synergy between the two. Throw some Cypher into the mix, make a Luther character model to be another Fallen leader.
Vulkan: dead, but totally not as he's a Perpetual. Vulkan comes back with an Ork campaign, where the Prime Orks return to do some WAAAGHin. His skin is scarred and cracked to give him a sweet lava flow effect.
Sanguinius: dead as a doornail. When Angron comes back and threatens the Blood Angels with Ka'Bandha, the Sanguinor merges with a redeemed Red Angel and the primarch's corpse to form Sanguinius Reborn, a new entity that is prone to the Black Rage.
Lorgar: daemon primarch. Comes back in Gathering Storm II: Electric Boogaloo to face Gulliman. Someone finally kills off Erebus in a satisfying manner.
Angron: daemon primarch. As above, comes back to finish/corrupt the Blood Angels, ends up causing resurrection of Sanguinius.
Fulgrim: daemon primarch. Give him a campaign against the Eldar as Slaanesh throws down against the Ynnari.
Perturabo: daemon primarch. Comes back allied with Black Legion to lay siege to some major system, ends up accidentally returning Dorn.
Alpharius: who freaking knows. In a shocking twist, when Corax returns at the beginning of their campaign event, it's really Al/Om in disguise, which is why Corax doesn't get a model until the 3rd book. Both do in the end, and it's revealed that "Corax"'s warning of doom was true, because the Alpha Legion was never really on the side of Chaos but now everyone in the Imperium hates them anyway so they can't come back home. Plus, while they thought they were just pretending to be Traitors, Chaos has slowly seeped into parts of the Legion anyway, so they're actually fairly corrupt regardless. They get an FAQ that allows them to be in an Imperium battle-forged army as if they had that keyword, but gain no benefits from that keyword and cannot take any units with keywords DAEMON, KHORNE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH, or NURGLE as those would just get them shot at right away.
Curze: dead, we think. Another primarch that doesn't fit the narrative and whose death is integral to the character of their legion. No one actually witnessed Curze's death except, IIRC, Zho Sahaal who is revealed to be an unreliable narrator in later books. It's revealed that he faked his death in order to live to see how his vindication affects everyone, turns out no one cared. Honestly, I'm a huge NL fan, and they're my main Chaos faction, but out of all of them Curze should just stay dead.We have his FW figure, and that's good enough for me. If you really need someone to be the big NL character, bring back Sevatar.
Horus: dead as a really dead doornail. However, Abaddon cuts through reality with the Talon of Horus and punches Archaeon in the face and steals his horse. Or something. Anyway, Abaddon gets a new model and new super scion of Chaos rules in a big Siege on Terra II event.
Personally, and I know that this will probably get me some hate, but I wish GW would bring back all the Primarchs.
It escalates the intensity of the battles of the 41st millennium by adding more black and white, good versus evil. Imagine a large scale battle between A deamon Primarch Magnus against a returned Russ for example.
Makes for great books, makes for great miniatures, and makes for great tabletop battles.
lliu wrote: There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.
It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.
The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.
But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.
lliu wrote: There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.
It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.
The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.
But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.
I've yet to see a book that, from Guilliman's perspective, admits he was doing the Imperium Secundus for a power grab.
However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.
Would love to find out that Dorn was just hiding in the imperial palace secretly fortifying the golden throne with the help of some friendly Custodians.
However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.
The first makes him a jerk, the second makes him a fool but neither makes him a traitor.
The Lion is consistently portrayed as having zero charisma and empathy. He expects to be obeyed without question but lacks the charm Horus uses to get people to do it. He is a "my way or the high way" kind of guy. Similarly, he cannot read people's emotions and motivations. He questions the loyalty of his own troops even when it is not in doubt yet fails to see Perutabo all but laughing in his face when he hands over the siege engines.
lliu wrote: There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.
The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.
It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.
The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.
But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.
I've yet to see a book that, from Guilliman's perspective, admits he was doing the Imperium Secundus for a power grab.
However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.
He killed Nemiel because he lost his temper, he gave an order and Nemiel disobeyed it infront of the other command staff, nothing shady, no corners, just straight up murder, it is coming back to haunt the Lion though as it seems to be a deciding factor of why Caliban falls in the future, cant go around murdering your own men, the others wont like it.
As for Iron Warriors and weapons, the Lion gave weapons to LOYAL, let that sink in, LOYAL...... Iron Warriors, for political gain, he wanted Peturabo to support his bid for warmaster once Horus was dead, he had no idea that the Iron Warriors were going to turn traitor, bet he was kicking himself afterwards though.
Fact is that the Lion was tested so many times by chaos and never fell, the same book that he murders Nemiel is the same book he has a conversation with "fateweaver" and basically tells him to F-off because Chaos offers him nothing he doesnt already have, there was never a chance of the Lion falling to Chaos.
In my opinion people still believe the lion was a traitor because they want him to be one. People twist facts to support their beliefs all the time. 40k lends itself to this attitude as they love to muddy the waters and drop contradictory hints here and there.
I think the novel by gav that started all this the lion was a secret traitor was intended as one of these efforts to muddy the waters, it wasn’t intended to be taken seriously but just to be a fun what if this was true.
I think the way a vocal section of the fandom embraced this hint hard surprised GW, this caused them to backtrack hard in the Heresy books. The only way they could have more clearly labelled him a loyalist in the Heresy books was with a large neon sign. But they also gave him serious personality flaws that enables us to see why people who didn’t know him could come to the wrong conclusion.
Lastly for me I don’t care which primarch’s return, I care about how they return. For example the Devastation of Baal blurb in the rule book was not good, but Guy Haley’s novel stuck to the same events but was awesome.
So for me they can bring anyone back as long as they write a good story. Obviously some would require a better story than others, bringing back the traitor’s or the lion and rus would be easier to write than Sanguinius or Curze.
Hell I’d accept the return of Horus if the story was good enough, it would require a godlike level of writing, but it’s just about theoretically possible someone could write a novel good enough for me to accept his return.
If I had to pick one it would be Johnson, granted I am a Dark Angels fan. He's by far the one in lore that's in the best shape and in a known location. The codexes basically just say he's waiting to wake up. He would be a great foil for Gulliman.
andysonic1 wrote: I think we'll see Ferrus Manus back as a clone escaped from Fulgrim's basement at the same time we see Fulgrim.
Fabius Bile Clonelord spoilers below.
Spoiler:
Fulgrim is described multiple times in the novel as "sleeping". and not being active.
Fabius however finds an infant clone of Fulgrim on Harmony and for whatever reason decided not to destroy it. Fulgrim clone grows to maturity and we get a totally-not-Frankenstein-and-monster-resentful-relationship between them by the end where he is handed over to Trazyn.
My bold prediction is he'll be back but as a Loyalist. Remember all of those rumours a while back about one of the Primarchs switching sides? This is it.
andysonic1 wrote: I think we'll see Ferrus Manus back as a clone escaped from Fulgrim's basement at the same time we see Fulgrim.
Fabius Bile Clonelord spoilers below.
Spoiler:
Fulgrim is described multiple times in the novel as "sleeping". and not being active.
Fabius however finds an infant clone of Fulgrim on Harmony and for whatever reason decided not to destroy it. Fulgrim clone grows to maturity and we get a totally-not-Frankenstein-and-monster-resentful-relationship between them by the end where he is handed over to Trazyn.
My bold prediction is he'll be back but as a Loyalist. Remember all of those rumours a while back about one of the Primarchs switching sides? This is it.
Fulgrim would be a weird one. He wasn't totally sane before the heresy, I can't imagine the clone would be much better. If we have to have a clone versus original matchup it should be Alhparius or the Lion. Those legions are at least split.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the plus side, once you clone one primarch, why not clone others? New Ferrus Manus, new Sanginious, Gulliman as a 5 man clone squad....
You could have a LoW Konrad Cruze as 5 clones standing in a pyramid formation with wings.
It's a cop-out, But Lion 'El Johnson is the most likely to appear for the loyalists.
In some ways it's intriguing. In many ways he's like RG, but in other ways total opposites. RG is the face man of the Imperium, everyone loves him. Johnson kind of freaks people out. Both are tactical geniuses (edge to Johnson). RG is in it for the good of the Imperium. Johnson is in it for the good of his chapter, but that means making the whole Imperium better by consequence too.
To me they are like the muscle car- tuner car debate. Different answers to the same question. Seeing them but heads a bit, but still working on an better imperium, would be a great story. I could see them winning a critical battle, RG goes to hi-five Johnson, only for Johnson to flip him the bird and sulk off.
cuda1179 wrote: It's a cop-out, But Lion 'El Johnson is the most likely to appear for the loyalists.
In some ways it's intriguing. In many ways he's like RG, but in other ways total opposites. RG is the face man of the Imperium, everyone loves him. Johnson kind of freaks people out. Both are tactical geniuses (edge to Johnson). RG is in it for the good of the Imperium. Johnson is in it for the good of his chapter, but that means making the whole Imperium better by consequence too.
To me they are like the muscle car- tuner car debate. Different answers to the same question. Seeing them but heads a bit, but still working on an better imperium, would be a great story. I could see them winning a critical battle, RG goes to hi-five Johnson, only for Johnson to flip him the bird and sulk off.
given the dark angels didn't get a primarch with their codex, and that GW has held off space wolves but not the other marine chapters... I'd bet on lemen russ being the next loyalist
I don't want to see any more primarchs in 40k, let them stay in 30k where they belong. In fact, I don't really like named characters at all, except in reenactments of famous battles. My casual games aren't grand enough for Eldrad, Abaddon, He'stan or anyone else really important to care about. I want them to be about generic Farseers, Captains and such, named by myself and my opponent.
Cream Tea wrote: I don't want to see any more primarchs in 40k, let them stay in 30k where they belong. In fact, I don't really like named characters at all, except in reenactments of famous battles. My casual games aren't grand enough for Eldrad, Abaddon, He'stan or anyone else really important to care about. I want them to be about generic Farseers, Captains and such, named by myself and my opponent.
So, don't take em. clearly others disagree given the popularity of those characters (although it's a legit question of "do people like Gulliman cause they wanna take the UMs primarch or because he's just such a bad ass character, I'd say it's a little of both, but the demand for big center piece characters seems a pretty strong one) the building/painting hobby is as big a part of 40k as the actual gaming, and I'd be very curious to know the ratio of Motarians purchases for use, vs the ratio of Mortarians purchased simply to be a display centerpiece. just for example.
So, don't take em. clearly others disagree given the popularity of those characters (although it's a legit question of "do people like Gulliman cause they wanna take the UMs primarch or because he's just such a bad ass character, I'd say it's a little of both, but the demand for big center piece characters seems a pretty strong one) the building/painting hobby is as big a part of 40k as the actual gaming, and I'd be very curious to know the ratio of Motarians purchases for use, vs the ratio of Mortarians purchased simply to be a display centerpiece. just for example.
I don't take them. I can still say how I would like the game to be, as can others.
There are lots of big centrepiece models that aren't named characters and of which there are millions in the galaxy, such as large tanks and walkers. Having them present in my insignificant game isn't nearly as immersion-breaking as having Guilliman or Mortarion is. I'm actually happy I don't play Ultramarines or Death Guard, because I'd feel pressured to buy Guilliman/Mortarion. They're just that good. That's a problem in itself, of course, I don't think there should be any autotakes of that magnitude, named character or not.
If you want models as display centrepieces, then it doesn't matter whether they're 40k or 30k, or any other game really, and I already said I don't mind primarchs in 30k. The 30k versions of Guilliman and Mortarion look much better than their 40k ones too, in my opinion.
I think the Primarchs are really interesting as part of the background, and a terrible, boring idea as the focus of the game. Introducing ‘Primarch-level’ stuff for the other factions just means you’ll see even more tedious, mono-build armies featuring the same handful of named characters. Yawn, yawn, yawn.
cuda1179 wrote: It's a cop-out, But Lion 'El Johnson is the most likely to appear for the loyalists.
In some ways it's intriguing. In many ways he's like RG, but in other ways total opposites. RG is the face man of the Imperium, everyone loves him. Johnson kind of freaks people out. Both are tactical geniuses (edge to Johnson). RG is in it for the good of the Imperium. Johnson is in it for the good of his chapter, but that means making the whole Imperium better by consequence too.
To me they are like the muscle car- tuner car debate. Different answers to the same question. Seeing them but heads a bit, but still working on an better imperium, would be a great story. I could see them winning a critical battle, RG goes to hi-five Johnson, only for Johnson to flip him the bird and sulk off.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Lion was generally considered the most tactically talented of the Primarchs, even more so than Horus. Horus got the nod as Warmaster because the Lion doesn't play well with others. Guilliman is just a really solid administrator, he wasn't really anything special (beyond what being a Primarch in general provides) as far as waging war went.
Not sure what Primarch is going to come next, depends on how reliable some of the rumors are. The current defining rumor is that the next Primarch is one that has never had a model, with the fluff in the DA codex about the Lion the two bits strongly suggest that it will be him. The timing of the Space Wolves codex of this summer however provides a fairly solid opportunity for Russ. And just to throw a wrench in the works we have the new rumors about Fulgrim, which make a lot of sense for a Slannesh refresh that is badly needed. One thing to consider also is that GW saw a lot of success with the Triumvirate release, so we could potentially see something similar where we get the Lion, Russ, and then someone else. Will be an interesting year.
. Would offer some cool stories about how the imperium handles him. On the one hand he's a primarch and fighting Chaos like crazy, on the other hand he's tainted and could even punch Guilliman down.
