What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?
My proposal:
1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.
2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.
3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.
I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.
There is plenty of Fluff justification for not allowing Centurions, Terminators and Primaris into drop pods. They simply do not fit. Drop Pods are STC tekyology and Mars would WTFBBQPurge any chapter that dared to add bigger seats.
However, #2 I would agree with if it also restricted charging. The 9" limit is to ensure that for the most part units only have a 25% chance of making combat (a shade under 50% for re-rollers) from a deep strike.
Martel732 wrote: I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.
Martel732 wrote: I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.
Nothing in marines mirrors its fluff properly.
Are you only in favor of fluff restrictions when it slights marines? Your bias is showing.
Martel732 wrote: I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.
Funny. I didn't see anywhere in the fluff that BA always lose to Eldar. Yet, that's what happened for two editions. I'm not crying, I'm simply stating the fact of the matter that it doesn't matter. I know very little fluff, and I'm not hampered by this in the game at all.
The fluff is governed by the whims of a C-list author. The crunch is governed by math. Not related.
Marmatag wrote: Nothing in marines mirrors its fluff properly.
Are you only in favor of fluff restrictions when it slights marines? Your bias is showing.
Drop Pods have always been limited to normal marines. There is no reason to expand them to non-normal marines, either crunch-wise or fluff-wise.
There is a good reason why they don't allow those types into pods. If you can't see that there is no point in debating.
No, in 7th edition they were not limited to normal marines only. They allowed centurions, and dreadnoughts.
Currently drop pods are in 0% of the tournament placing marine lists. There is a reason for that. In their current incantation they are useless. Do you want the unit to stay useless?
Marmatag wrote: What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?
My proposal:
1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.
2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.
3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.
I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.
What do you think?
I think #1 gets a bit wonky do units embarked in transports count toward the 10 wounds? Or can I have a Razorback with 6 marines embarked? Personally I would just make primaris count as 2 models for all SM transports, and allow pods to take dreads again. The wound count thing also causes issue with putting characters with units in the pod.
#2 is too good, it would allow for 5" charges coming out of a pod, tons of flamers in auto hit range.
#3 is fine it allows them to help fill detachments, although it has downsides as well.
Part of me almost feels like they should no longer be an actual unit, but part of a stratagem that allows you to deepstrike a unit. But beyond that as a unit they really just need to be cheaper.
Marmatag wrote: What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?
My proposal:
1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.
2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.
3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.
I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.
What do you think?
I think #1 gets a bit wonky do units embarked in transports count toward the 10 wounds? Or can I have a Razorback with 6 marines embarked? Personally I would just make primaris count as 2 models for all SM transports, and allow pods to take dreads again. The wound count thing also causes issue with putting characters with units in the pod.
#2 is too good, it would allow for 5" charges coming out of a pod, tons of flamers in auto hit range.
#3 is fine it allows them to help fill detachments, although it has downsides as well.
Part of me almost feels like they should no longer be an actual unit, but part of a stratagem that allows you to deepstrike a unit. But beyond that as a unit they really just need to be cheaper.
The embarked total would include the units inside the razorback. As far as characters go, that would diminish the ability to deep strike characters, but that is okay, because rule #2 makes a successful charge very likely.
Another option would be simply that they cannot transport non-walker vehicles.
I think something like "impact crater: terrain w/in 3" counts as a crater (grants cover)" would be a cool rule, units are -1 to hit 1st turn after disembarking (call it dust storm or something), target painters (something like markerlights?) assault 3, on a 4+ friendly units w/in 3" re-roll 1s vs target?
Hell give them firing ports and don't force units to disembark right away? 5 firing ports?
A better weapon than storm bolters on top (2x heavy bolters, assault cannon, hurricane bolters?) allow them to use the tau for the better good and get overwatch against charges declared at units w/in 3"?
Easiest answer is to drop the price to 35 points (more expensive jump packs) but I don't think making marines cheap helps them fulfill their niche.
There's a million ways they could be cool if not useful but the SM codex seems to be a rushed boring port of 7th...
Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.
We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.
Lance845 wrote: Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.
We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.
The Tyrannocyte can carry a lot of things, including monstrous creatures. It can also do things on the table after it lands.
The drop pod is very restricted in what it can do.
8E Deepstrike rules pretty much made drop pods unneccesary.
I’d be inclined to say the best way to fix them would be to allow models to deploy from them (via deepstrike) for 1 CP - 2 CP if the pod can actually do something (provide cover, heavy bolter or deathwind launcher weapon).
Lance845 wrote: Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.
We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.
The Tyrannocyte can carry a lot of things, including monstrous creatures. It can also do things on the table after it lands.
The drop pod is very restricted in what it can do.
They are totally different units.
The Tyrannocyte is also overcosted.
No, The Tyrannocyte can bring a single unit of up to 20 model or a single monstrous creature. Not 2 units of warriors and a prime, or 1 unit of genestealers and a brood lord. Or the swarmlord and his tyrant guard. 1 unit. Always.
The drop pod can bring 10 models in any configuration. Including buffing characters.
Both units are first and foremost a delivery system. For it's point the Tyrannocyte isn't worth much of anything else. It's why you don't see them on the table. The VERY moment it can carry more than 1 unit you will see them all over the place.
115-125ish for the Tcyte. 90 for the drop pod. You really think it's should be 35? Pft. Again, insanity.
I'd say just drop the points a bit; not quite as far as 35, but maybe 60-65 or so; while this makes the Rhino slightly more expensive, it's a more useful unit to have throughout a battle, whereas the drop pod is basically done once it lands except for a weak shooting attack.
Martel732 wrote: The Tyrannocyte is not remotely worth 115-125. Ever played against guard? Yeah....deep striking is not that valuable.
The Tyrannocyte WOULD be worth that IF I could fill it with multiple units.
The ONLY thing holding the Tcyte back is it's single unit transport.
Drop Pods several people in the LAST thread about this said they use drop pods every game to great effect.
You cannot just pretend that a wall you place down with t6 w8 sv3+ has no value what so ever. The fact that it's 3+ bs with a gun isn't worth 0 points.
No, it can't move. No, it's not bristling with fire power. But you can place it anywhere and deploy your guys from it.
Just like last time, SM players have edition lag. They are used to their drop pods costing 35 on paper, getting them for free from a formation, and having them have a better version of deepstrike then everyone else. Drop Pods got put in line with everyone elses drop pod equivalents and the deepstrike rules normalized everyones ability to deepstrike and now your upset by comparison.
Black Templar could load this thing up with a crusader squad, the Emps Champion, a Librarian, etc etc...
It's not JUST tac marines. It's ANY infantry including all your characters.
MAYBE 80 points. MAYBE. But if the Dpod is worth 80 then the Tcyte should be 100 with it's guns attached and be able to mix units like you do.
I don't remotely agree. 80 is still way too much. Call it edition lag, but ba never got free units. Problem is that almost everything that goes in said pod is trash becsuse marine infantry and characters are trash.
Currently drop pods are in 0% of the tournament placing marine lists. There is a reason for that. In their current incantation they are useless. Do you want the unit to stay useless?
This assumes it's impossible to make them useless without allowing centurions etc and would also then logically mean drop pods are and will always be useless for normal marines...
I proposed several things that would dramatically change them. I don't think it's lazy.
In any case, i'm not here to solve the world's problems. I play Tyranids as my main army. I understand that the Tyrannocyte isn't great. One of its biggest use cases is the Swarmlord. Which is a monster. Marines don't have a way to deep strike the equivalent. Different use cases.
Right now they could be 35 points and i don't see many people using them, because drop podding marines, and ONLY MARINES, doesn't have much value, because marines don't have value.
Marmatag wrote: I proposed several things that would dramatically change them. I don't think it's lazy.
In any case, i'm not here to solve the world's problems. I play Tyranids as my main army. I understand that the Tyrannocyte isn't great. One of its biggest use cases is the Swarmlord. Which is a monster. Marines don't have a way to deep strike the equivalent. Different use cases.
Right now they could be 35 points and i don't see many people using them, because drop podding marines, and ONLY MARINES, doesn't have much value, because marines don't have value.
Indeed this. I would still barely even consider pods even at their old price. Virtually everything the marines want to deep strike already can thanks to termie armor or jump packs. Also the pod creates an annoying situation in which you must have another unit deployed to keep your deep strike count legal.
Maybe if they start allowing primaris passengers I might do some hellblasters in one.
While I wouldn't mind seeing dreadnaughts coming out of pods again, are pods really in that bad of shape these days?
Battle scribe says its 85 points for a basic drop pod. It's fallacious to compare that cost to another army's wargear from 7th edition, but... well... two webway portals in 7th would have cost me 70 points plus the cost of the character carrying them. An extra 15 points for a body that can plop on an objective and requires anti-tank firepower to remove in a hurry doesn't sound so bad.
Speaking as a guy who has mostly played his craftworlders this edition, I have access to Webway Strike and I would still consider using a drop pod in my army if I could.
I keep seeing people saying that drop pods are bad because the units that can ride in them are bad, but surely there are some options in the massive marine unit catalogue that wouldn't mind popping up on the enemy's doorstep.
I'm probably just showing my lack of 8th edition marine experience, but...
*Multi-melta devastators backed up by a jump pack captain firing 8 melta-range shots...
*Several drop pods' worth of min-sized Black Templar squads...
*Good old sternguard...
*Maybe even the special weapon half of a combat squadded tac squad...
...all seem like options that would work reasonably, at least in moderately-optimized friendly games. Use the Raven Guard stratagem to infiltrate the rest of your army into screening position and have most of your force in their face turn one. Use Black Templar tactics and MSU to strangle gunlines with tons of rerollable turn 1 charges. Do that plasma voodoo Dark Angels do by plopping a plasma-heavy squad in with a pod.
Pods aren't cheap enough to easily hand one out to every single squad any more, but 85 points doesn't seem so bad for something that lets you deepstrike 10 models that normally can't deepstrike.
That said, I wouldn't mind pods getting cheaper provided they dropped down to like... 2 wounds or something. All you really need to break is the storm bolter, after all. After that, it's toasty metal box sitting around quietly. Even then, I'd feel weird pricing them below 50 points.
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Martel732 wrote: I don't remotely agree. 80 is still way too much. Call it edition lag, but ba never got free units. Problem is that almost everything that goes in said pod is trash becsuse marine infantry and characters are trash.
Nitpick: Didn't BA get their free drop pods back in 5th edition by opting not to put jump packs on their assault marines?
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Marmatag wrote: What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?
My proposal:
1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.
2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.
3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.
I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.
What do you think?
1. Pods don't make sense for temrinators at the moment, and podding in a vehicle other than a dread is silly, but I'm otherwise alright with this. Other transports in the game say, "Unit X counts as 2 models for transport purposes." This is just a less awkward version of doing the same thing while explaining the "size" of 20 different marine units.
2. Nah. The 9" away thing is a good limitation to have. It gives you a reasonable chance to make a charge without retaliation, but you're more likely to fail the charge than to pass. A 7" charge means you're more likely to make the charge than not. 6" is an "easy" charge. This also might combo oddly with deepstriking vehicles. Is a dreadnaught's base small enough to be placed within 3" of a pod? How about a rhino chassis?
3. Eh. Maybe. It wouldn't really break anything, but I'm not sure there's a better example of a "dedicated transport" than the orbital re-entry pod that delivers its passengers and then does nothing else all game. What would be the point of making them FA? Just to situationally get more command points out of them? Feels gamely and not particularly fluffy.
Martel732 wrote: I don't remotely agree. 80 is still way too much. Call it edition lag, but ba never got free units. Problem is that almost everything that goes in said pod is trash becsuse marine infantry and characters are trash.
Marine Infantry are tooooooo fragile for their points in the 6th, 7th and 8th editions, while they are too slow in movement. This misery is coupled by their weapons which are only decently strong when they are close up towards enemy. So I think a cheap transport which could either (i) protect them for a while (i.e. Rhino) or (ii) get them to where they need to be and launch an overwhelming alpha strike, is really really important for them to become at least decent, and that is the reason why those humble Tactical Marines suddenly become "broken" in the bottom half of 7th edition period.
Generally speaking, I agree that 35pts for Droppod might be undercosted, but 80pts mark is defintely overcosted. A fair price in my eye for Droppod and Rhino is around 50-60pts.
Else, to get rid of the "marine player edition lag" somebody mentioned, we'd better just take Guilliman to buff the 2 Devastator Squads coming out of the pod each with 4 Grav Cannons at hand, in any decently competitive games. And accept being called "that is tooooo OP"!
I like the changes but they also need a points drop in addition to the changes. It should be cheaper than a rhino because it can't move. So the 50-60 range seems about right with the ability to get into 6 " of an opponent. Currently it's worth about 20 points.
niv-mizzet wrote: I would still barely even consider pods even at their old price. Virtually everything the marines want to deep strike already can thanks to termie armor or jump packs. Also the pod creates an annoying situation in which you must have another unit deployed to keep your deep strike count legal.
Maybe if they start allowing primaris passengers I might do some hellblasters in one.
I'd argue GravCannon Devs compete with Hellblasters. 10 Hellblasters average 8.8 wounds (rapid firing) against MEQ, at a cost of 330. Grav Devs (on the move) average 6.2 MEQ wounds at only 182* points. Since the Devs are only a 5 man squad, you can fit two packs of them in a Pod if that's what you're after. Hellblasters fare better against vehicles with their higher strength (17.7 rapid fire, 8.8 long range vs Rhino Eq. Devs a constant 6.2 up to 24") but since Devs are only 55% the cost you can afford the second squad and put it up to 12.4 at 24" range.
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
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Martel732 wrote: Try 50 and see if it gets used. That's all we can really do.
Problem is that cherub takes up a spot in the pod meaning you only get one per pod (which sucks), right?
On the other side those grav + guilliman are just about the most powerful combo in the dex but with so much -1 to hit out there moving in addition to that -1 really hurts even with gman re-rolls (43% hit rate down from 88% stationary vs non -1 targets)
bananathug wrote: Problem is that cherub takes up a spot in the pod meaning you only get one per pod (which sucks), right?
On the other side those grav + guilliman are just about the most powerful combo in the dex but with so much -1 to hit out there moving in addition to that -1 really hurts even with gman re-rolls (43% hit rate down from 88% stationary vs non -1 targets)
Well, when I pod I use a Chapter Master and try not to fire at harder to hit items, (Although I've done that too). But I think I'd still prefer missing a bit more over starting on the table and getting shot first.
I don't think the Cherub counts as a passenger. (Not that I stack multiple Dev Squads in one Pod, I prefer the padded squads)
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
As I mentioned before, I'd definitely be looking at fielding them in one of my aeldari armies if I had access to them, so I feel I must be missing something. On paper, they look pretty good! All these calsl for bringing them back to 35 points just seem bizarre to me. At 35 points, I'd be tempted to take a non-deepstriking pod just to have it sit on an objective and hold back deepstrikers. O_O Is the idea that 35 points is roughly what you should be paying to deepstrike one or two units in? Because that seems like kind of a steal to me.
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
In 7th, yes the opponent need AT fire to get rid of that Pod landed on Objective if it was carrying Tactical Squad. In 8th, you just need to have 6 Gargoyles close to the same objective in your last turn (i.e. that ensure at least 2 Gargoyles will surivive that stormbolter) and that objective is all yours.
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
In 7th, yes the opponent need AT fire to get rid of that Pod landed on Objective if it was carrying Tactical Squad. In 8th, you just need to have 6 Gargoyles close to the same objective in your last turn (i.e. that ensure at least 2 Gargoyles will surivive that stormbolter) and that objective is all yours.
Assuming the drop pod is the only unit that survived to the last round?
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
In 7th, yes the opponent need AT fire to get rid of that Pod landed on Objective if it was carrying Tactical Squad. In 8th, you just need to have 6 Gargoyles close to the same objective in your last turn (i.e. that ensure at least 2 Gargoyles will surivive that stormbolter) and that objective is all yours.
Assuming the drop pod is the only unit that survived to the last round?
Errrr...... Do you think killing 10 T4 Sv3+ models within 2 game turns is a significant problem for those Exocrine, Dakkafexes, Hive Tyrants, or hordes of Genestealers?
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
In 7th, yes the opponent need AT fire to get rid of that Pod landed on Objective if it was carrying Tactical Squad. In 8th, you just need to have 6 Gargoyles close to the same objective in your last turn (i.e. that ensure at least 2 Gargoyles will surivive that stormbolter) and that objective is all yours.
Assuming the drop pod is the only unit that survived to the last round?
Errrr...... Do you think killing 10 T4 Sv3+ models within 2 game turns is a significant problem for those Exocrine, Dakkafexes, Hive Tyrants, or hordes of Genestealers?
Are you suggesting the SM players entire army is made up of 1 drop pod and the 10 models that fit inside? And the nid players army is made up of gargoyes, exocrines (plural) dakkafexes (plural) Hive Tyrants (plural) and hordes of gene stealers (as in more than 1 horde). And you think the drop pod would still be alive past turn 1 in this proposed situation?
I assume that if "6 gargoyles" are moving onto an objective with a drop pod on the last round intending to try to survive the storm bolter on the drop pod that it's very likely the SM player has more then just their drop pod alive. Otherwise, I feel like trying to grab a last minute objective is probably pointless. The SM player already lost.
Or to summarize, the scenario presented where 6 gargoyles are a threat to an objective on the last round of the game is completely ridiculous and unrealistic. Your purposefully fabricating a situation where 2 specific units at the tail end of a game exist in a vacuum where for whatever reason nothing else will interact with them. Never mind the fact that gargs just are not a popular option since termagants outshoot them, genestealers out kill them, and hormagaunts out tie up them.
This really boils down to marine foot infantry being bad and therefore it should be mega cheap to deep strike in bad units. Tyranid units at least get to be amazing in 8th.
Marmatag wrote: People list things that don't work in pods...
You put multi-melta devastator squad, pair with a captain, and drop in. Well guess what. The chaff keeps you out of range to melta and you're effectively firing 4x weaker lascannon shots, when you could just deploy the squad with lascannons and have higher strength at greater range with no risk, no pod, and not requiring a captain.
I get that you want to have an opinion here but that kind of suggestion leads me to believe you don't have a dog in this race.
And dropping a pod to 2 wounds would make them laughable in an ITC game, because they'd be a scoring unit for your opponent. You'd be handing your opponent a point, or more easily getting the +1 for killing more units.
Fair points. Regarding the devastator thing specifically though, this sounds more like an issue with multi meltas than with drop pods, no? If we all agree that the purpose of a drop pod is basically to grant deepstrike to non-deepstriking units, then I don't really see how it fails to accomplish that. If I want to deepstrike multiple squads of, say, true born (which have a similar role to sternguard), then I'd have to pay 3 command points to do so. A drop pod costs ~85 points points instead and then possibly sticks around on an objective (depending on where it lands) until the other guy wastes anti-tank firepower on it.
In 7th, yes the opponent need AT fire to get rid of that Pod landed on Objective if it was carrying Tactical Squad. In 8th, you just need to have 6 Gargoyles close to the same objective in your last turn (i.e. that ensure at least 2 Gargoyles will surivive that stormbolter) and that objective is all yours.
Assuming the drop pod is the only unit that survived to the last round?
Errrr...... Do you think killing 10 T4 Sv3+ models within 2 game turns is a significant problem for those Exocrine, Dakkafexes, Hive Tyrants, or hordes of Genestealers?
Are you suggesting the SM players entire army is made up of 1 drop pod and the 10 models that fit inside? And the nid players army is made up of gargoyes, exocrines (plural) dakkafexes (plural) Hive Tyrants (plural) and hordes of gene stealers (as in more than 1 horde). And you think the drop pod would still be alive past turn 1 in this proposed situation?
I assume that if "6 gargoyles" are moving onto an objective with a drop pod on the last round intending to try to survive the storm bolter on the drop pod that it's very likely the SM player has more then just their drop pod alive. Otherwise, I feel like trying to grab a last minute objective is probably pointless. The SM player already lost.
Or to summarize, the scenario presented where 6 gargoyles are a threat to an objective on the last round of the game is completely ridiculous and unrealistic. Your purposefully fabricating a situation where 2 specific units at the tail end of a game exist in a vacuum where for whatever reason nothing else will interact with them. Never mind the fact that gargs just are not a popular option since termagants outshoot them, genestealers out kill them, and hormagaunts out tie up them.
It looks like over-react in claiming that I assume the marine player only have a pod and 10 PA models on field, and hugely diverted from my initial picture I want to demonstrate: Under 8th edition rule, droppod itself, as a single big pricy model with battle role "transport", will be out-contested by just two whatever dirt cheap models, be it Gargoyes, termagants, Guradsman or Cultists, they just need two models alive and close to Objective when the game ends to deny the Droppod's attempt of taking that objective. So now Droppod does not have observable value in grabbing objectives.
Sure, the marine army may not just have 1 Droppod or 10 Marines, but similarly, Nidz are not likely to have only 6 Gargoyes left at the end game, Guards won't have only 6 guardsmen left. However, the discussion about wether what's left for Nidz/Guards can deal with what's left for the marines so as to let the Gargoyes/guardsmen out-contest the Droppod might be out of topic of this thread, and better to open a new thread to discuss. Anyway, I am sorry I didn't make my conclusion focussing on the subject (Droppod) clear in previous post, and I am stating it here: 1. For marine players, the Droppod is no longer a solid Objective contester, all it serves in 8th edition is just get your heavy hitting weapon wielders to where you want them to be quickly, that is almost all its value. All SM fans need to accept it and must adopt accordingly!!! 2. For the oppoents of Space Marines, Bravo, Bravo, no need to waste your firepower on that immobile single stormbolter platform until it explode anymore, just concentrate on those Grav cannon / plasma wielding T4 Sv3+ 6" movement guys coming out of the pods, Just KILL them before they fire their second volley and all is fine. Of course, Just do not forget to rush a few chaffs up to that objective at the end game.
It looks like over-react in claiming that I assume the marine player only have a pod and 10 PA models on field, and hugely diverted from my initial picture I want to demonstrate: Under 8th edition rule, droppod itself, as a single big pricy model with battle role "transport", will be out-contested by just two whatever dirt cheap models, be it Gargoyes, termagants, Guradsman or Cultists, they just need two models alive and close to Objective when the game ends to deny the Droppod's attempt of taking that objective. So now Droppod does not have observable value in grabbing objectives.
Sure, the marine army may not just have 1 Droppod or 10 Marines, but similarly, Nidz are not likely to have only 6 Gargoyes left at the end game, Guards won't have only 6 guardsmen left. However, the discussion about wether what's left for Nidz/Guards can deal with what's left for the marines so as to let the Gargoyes/guardsmen out-contest the Droppod might be out of topic of this thread, and better to open a new thread to discuss. Anyway, I am sorry I didn't make my conclusion focussing on the subject (Droppod) clear in previous post, and I am stating it here: 1. For marine players, the Droppod is no longer a solid Objective contester, all it serves in 8th edition is just get your heavy hitting weapon wielders to where you want them to be quickly, that is almost all its value. All SM fans need to accept it and must adopt accordingly!!! 2. For the oppoents of Space Marines, Bravo, Bravo, no need to waste your firepower on that immobile single stormbolter platform until it explode anymore, just concentrate on those Grav cannon / plasma wielding T4 Sv3+ 6" movement guys coming out of the pods, Just KILL them before they fire their second volley and all is fine. Of course, Just do not forget to rush a few chaffs up to that objective at the end game.
Again, edition lag. You bemoan the fact that dedicated transports no longer have the battlefield role of the unit they come with. So does everyone elses. Get over it. It wasn't a unique feature of drop pods and nobody else gets it any more either. My big pricy 250 point tervigon is out contested by 2 of your scouts. Boo Hoo. Thats got nothing to do with drop pods. It's a core mechanic of 8th.
1) the drop pod is a solid objective GRABBER while being something that requires dedicated heavier fire power to remove. It's fire power isn't crazy powerful, but it is a consistent source of shots for that reason. Maybe you are not aware of this but Nids know that everything we bring is going to die. Thats why we bring 2 of everything, or we bring so many immediate threats that you have to pick and choose what to deal with so SOMETHING will get through. Genestealers and Trygons don't tend to see turn 3. So you pay their points and you have 1-2 turns to make them count. Your drop pod isn't a high value target while being durable and requiring dedicated anti tank to kill. That has a value unto itself because unlike my GS or Trygons it's very likely your drop pod WILL be there turn 5. After that, yes, the drop pods CORE feature is to deliver it's payload of dudes. Which it does better and cheaper then most (any?) other armies deepstriking transports.
2) You have LOTS of decently to greatly ranged units. Your guys don't need to be ON the objective to shoot my guys off of it. Your infantry can have 36" ranged guns, and come stock with 24. Mine come with 12 and have to pay to reach 18. You can Shoot the 6 grags off the objective from 2 feet away. A whole 1/6th of a standard sized table. Are you understanding what I am saying yet? My guys have to get rhough your T4 3+ sv while having an average BS of 4+. you have to get through T3 6+ saves with a constant BS 3+.
My d pod, a single unit, yours as many units as fit up to 10 model. Mine bs 5+. Your 3+ Mine t6 4+ sv 12 w. Your t6 3+ sv 8 w. Mine 123 pts. Yours 95.
Again, any issue with the dpod is probably actually an issue with your other units. Not the pod itself. The pod is fairly priced for what it does.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You keep talking about that BS5+ mattering as though you had the same number of shots from the model.
Also, 12 wounds with a 4+ is more valuable than the 8 wounds at 3+.
It is. And the one costs 30 points more. And has a worse ability to deepstrike transport to boot. Im not comparing the stats in a vacum. Each has little perks one way or the other. But the fact remains the dpod does its most basic job better for less points.
Marine infantry already sucks and chraging this much for a deep strike is insane. But makes perfect sense to marine haters.
Its not marine hating. Its fixing the actual problem. If marine infantry suck then fix marine infantry. Why the feth would making drop pods cheap fix the problems of tac marines? Stop using other units as an excuss for why the drop pod needs adjustments.
On average you land with the same number of shots with your Scyte you get MAX with the Drop Pod.
Please stop talking about the BS3+ vs BS5+ as though it matters.
It's also not worse. It's different. How often do I want to transport a character with a squad in the first place? It certainly wasn't happening a lot even with the 7th edition version. The option exists, but it's a non-option.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You keep talking about that BS5+ mattering as though you had the same number of shots from the model.
Also, 12 wounds with a 4+ is more valuable than the 8 wounds at 3+.
It is. And the one costs 30 points more. And has a worse ability to deepstrike transport to boot. Im not comparing the stats in a vacum. Each has little perks one way or the other. But the fact remains the dpod does its most basic job better for less points.
Marine infantry already sucks and chraging this much for a deep strike is insane. But makes perfect sense to marine haters.
Its not marine hating. Its fixing the actual problem. If marine infantry suck then fix marine infantry. Why the feth would making drop pods cheap fix the problems of tac marines? Stop using other units as an excuss for why the drop pod needs adjustments.
It would at least be a small price to increase the probability of using our useless CC stats instead of a large price to slightly increase the chance of using our useless CC stats.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: On average you land with the same number of shots with your Scyte you get MAX with the Drop Pod.
Please stop talking about the BS3+ vs BS5+ as though it matters.
It's also not worse. It's different. How often do I want to transport a character with a squad in the first place? It certainly wasn't happening a lot even with the 7th edition version. The option exists, but it's a non-option.
In 7th that character just joined the unit. Now that its aoe buff its very valuable to drop them with squads.
You dont see tcytes. Its easily because that muti unit matters. Primes with warriors. Tyrants with guard. Its significantly worse to need 2 drop pods to bring a swarmlord and his guard for 4 total reserve units with a 250 transport tax instead of your 3 units at 95.
Again, any issue with the dpod is probably actually an issue with your other units. Not the pod itself. The pod is fairly priced for what it does.
So is it fair to say that many of us agree the pod is fine as is and that the issue really lies with the units that might want to ride in said pod? It seems silly to me to make a transport amazing for its price if the fault actually lies in completely different units. I mean, we don't want to start slapping battle cannons on rhinos to make up for the failing of tactical marines, right?
I don't know. It's all in context. If I'm paying 80 pts for a one use drop for 10 meqs, those meqs better be able to do some pretty fancy stuff. And they just can't. I also don't think old marines will get any love in order to pimp primaris. Maybe you could buff marines to give me 80 pts of value, but it seems easier to just make it much cheaper to reflect its crapiness.
Martel732 wrote: I don't know. It's all in context. If I'm paying 80 pts for a one use drop for 10 meqs, those meqs better be able to do some pretty fancy stuff. And they just can't. I also don't think old marines will get any love in order to pimp primaris. Maybe you could buff marines to give me 80 pts of value, but it seems easier to just make it much cheaper to reflect its crapiness.
But ITS not crappy. IT does it's job with a durability and a gun that makes it's price point fair. The TCyte shouldn't cost less if I choose to put biovores into it.
The only drop pod which makes sense is the FW dreadnought drop pod. Include a raven guard detachment to deepstrike any raven guard INFANTRY with a stratagem. Any SM can use JP to deepstrike. First costs no points, second is much cheaper than a drop pod, gives the infantry 12" move, and the ability to shoot after falling back. Drop pods need a rule change to include heavy infantry like centurions or aggressors, or a massive point drop, to like 30.
Wait, are people honestly arguing that min-sized Crusader Squads in pods are decent? Are we playing the same game here? Do peoe really not understand what a dumpster fire Marine melee units are this edition?
p5freak wrote: The only drop pod which makes sense is the FW dreadnought drop pod. Include a raven guard detachment to deepstrike any raven guard INFANTRY with a stratagem. Any SM can use JP to deepstrike. First costs no points, second is much cheaper than a drop pod, gives the infantry 12" move, and the ability to shoot after falling back. Drop pods need a rule change to include heavy infantry like centurions or aggressors, or a massive point drop, to like 30.
I mean, the first one costs no points, but it does eat up command points pretty quickly if you're infiltrating a significant portion of your force, and it leave you vulnerable if your opponent gets first turn. The drop pod is a safer alternative that ensures you'll get a safe chance at an alpha strike with whatever you put in it. Not that the RG stratagem isn't good (it is), but the drop pod is an arguably safer alternative that utilizes a different resource. Plus, not everyone plays RG.
The second is just completely untrue unless the new codex stealthily slipped in the option to take jump packs on sternguard, tacs, devastators, etc. Obviously you're better off taking jump packs for units that can take them, but plenty of units can't.
And just to clarify, are you of the opinion that it should cost about 15 points to deepstrike anything that can ride in a pod? Because that's what the two sternguard squads (or whatever) would be paying at that point. I personally feel like 15 points to deepstrike a squad is kind of on the cheap side, but you may feel otherwise.
I'm really not against centurions, etc. riding in them though. Sure, you'd have to build special chairs for them, but that doesn't seem like a huge deal.
I mean, the first one costs no points, but it does eat up command points pretty quickly if you're infiltrating a significant portion of your force, and it leave you vulnerable if your opponent gets first turn.
There are plenty of ways to get/save command points. All you need to do is play a mixed army. Deploy them out of sight of the enemy if you dont get first turn.
The drop pod is a safer alternative that ensures you'll get a safe chance at an alpha strike with whatever you put in it. Not that the RG stratagem isn't good (it is), but the drop pod is an arguably safer alternative that utilizes a different resource. Plus, not everyone plays RG.
Another (expensive) way is the tallarn ambush stratagem. Place a stormlord in ambush along with infantry embarked on it, and it pops up on your turn. Dont play only one faction.
The second is just completely untrue unless the new codex stealthily slipped in the option to take jump pack on sternguard, tacs, devastators, etc. Obviously you're better off taking jump packs for units that can take them, but plenty of units can't.
BA company veterans can use JP, and you can outfit them with pretty much everything, except heavy weapons. Dont play only one faction. Everyone can use vanguard vets, play em as dark angels, give a 10 model unit 20 plasma pistols, deepstrike em. Next turn use the weapons from the dark age stratagem, which increases plasma damage by 1, overcharge, reroll 1s (DA can when they didnt move that turn), whatever you target is, is gone. Dont play only one faction.
And just to clarify, are you of the opinion that it should cost about 15 points to deepstrike anything that can ride in a pod? Because that's what the two sternguard squads (or whatever) would be paying at that point. I personally feel like 15 points to deepstrike a squad is kind of on the cheap side, but you may feel otherwise.
No, not 15. I think somewhere in the 30 range is fine. There are other options to deepstrike which are cheaper/different/better.
Your argument would be a lot more honest if you'd just said "buy this other army where things can deep strike and mix it into your other army". Even then you can't Deep Strike Sternguard.
A 5 model unit of sternguards with drop pod is 173 pts. A 5 model unit of BA company vets with plasmaguns and JP is 147 pts. The vets have 12" move, can fly, still shoot after fallback, they have S7 AP-3 weapons, and a chainsword for +1 attack in CC. Even with power swords or power axes they are 172 pts. Clearly superior in every way for the same points, except weapon range.
Desubot wrote: Personally just make them cheaper OR allow them to risk a close by deep strike/allow disembarking close to the enemy then 9.
since no one can deep strike normal within 9 i feel like they should get something after losing that gyro rule.
OR what would be funny would be if they deep strike units within some distance takes mortal wounds from the blast pressure
A closer deepstrike (~6-7") would actually make them worth the 85 points, since then no matter what marines you put inside of it, all of them have a much better chance to actually make use of the generalist statline. It also gives marines an effective delivery system for flamers, which they currently lack, and that adjustment would at the same time give them different options for dealing with hordes than asscan razorspam.
As someone who plays a bodies-heavy RG list in HH, and played a bodies-heavy RG list in 7th, the drop pod's biggest contribution then was being able to get guys where you needed them, something the 9" deadzone bubbles cause massive headaches with (it's not uncommon to have most of an entire side of the board denied while they would have been perfectly servicable drop points in 7th)
Ultimately the current 8th edition rules don't reflect something the drop pod has been until now: it was one of the few ways in the game of striking close to enemy lines without needing to fear a mishap.
Martel732 wrote: And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.
Why on Earth would they become illegal?
jump pack company vets for blood angels are currently only supported via index. Martel's assumption is that 9th will completely invalidate any options preserved by the indexes in 8th
Ultimately the current 8th edition rules don't reflect something the drop pod has been until now: it was one of the few ways in the game of striking close to enemy lines without needing to fear a mishap.
Is that really a problem though? In 7th, losing a unit to deepstrike was annoying and generally diminished at least one player's enjoyment of the game. I know that I never felt good about my opponent losing X% of their army without even deploying it. Drop pods being able to stack up in your face or use existing units to avoid scattering off target when they otherwise would while everyone else was left splattering themselves across the pavement on re-entry always smelled a little sour.
This edition, almost everything that deepstrikes can do so safely but also has to stay far enough away to make it improbable that you'll get a ton of charges off out of deepstrike. Which seems about right. Should drop pods have some super duper extra special rule that lets them stick pinpoint landings form orbit and reliably make charges out of deepstrike just because a previous codex in a previous edition gave them something along those lines? Surely assault marines should have been at least as good at landing in a general area without dying as the guy hastily adjusting course in a metal box as part of orbital re-entry.
Or do you disagree? Reasonable people certainly could. So far, I haven't seen a solid argument for why a pod is unreasonable at its points cost other than, "The things I put inside it are bad for their points." Which again, seems like an issue with other units rather than the drop pod. I would absolutely field drop pods as transports for my aeldari or daemons if I could.
This edition, almost everything that deepstrikes can do so safely but also has to stay far enough away to make it improbable that you'll get a ton of charges off out of deepstrike. Which seems about right. Should drop pods have some super duper extra special rule that lets them stick pinpoint landings form orbit and reliably make charges out of deepstrike just because a previous codex in a previous edition gave them something along those lines?
No, not because it was that way in 7th, because they cost 85 pts.
A: allow them to land 6" away and cause a D3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy (within 8") when they land. Units disembarking cannot charge this turn.
B. Give them a stratagem that allows all your pods to count as one deployment and lets them drop down at the start of the move phase, but they cannot land in either players deployment zone. Units disembarking can then make a normal move+advance when they get out instead of just a regular disembark, however they still cannot charge. Probably a 3CP cost.
My gripe is the cost.
You pay 85 pts for a delivery system for a squad that does alright, and then after you get a T6 storm bolter turret.
For the most part I've only gotten use out of a drop pod once to kill a tau commander in my backline with grav cannons
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reivers pay 2 pts for deep strike
Assault marines pay 3pts for deep strike and 6" of extra movement. (Which frankly I think is a steal)
So for a capacity of 10 men that costs 20.
The storm bolter is 2
So is a immobile vehicle worth 63?
1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.
fraser1191 wrote: My gripe is the cost.
You pay 85 pts for a delivery system for a squad that does alright, and then after you get a T6 storm bolter turret.
For the most part I've only gotten use out of a drop pod once to kill a tau commander in my backline with grav cannons
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reivers pay 2 pts for deep strike
Assault marines pay 3pts for deep strike and 6" of extra movement. (Which frankly I think is a steal)
So for a capacity of 10 men that costs 20.
The storm bolter is 2
So is a immobile vehicle worth 63?
Because dropping concentrated heavy and special weapons is worth more than dropping light assault troops.
Drop pod just pays a lot for it's stats. If it becomes cheaper while remaining as durable, it becomes an issue because a marine player can just use pods to block points.
It's kinda identical to trukk's problems. It's too expensive to be an effective transport but it wouldn't be fair to have much cheaper trukks cause they'd be to good on their own.
So, for pods, if they had like 5 wounds with 4+ armor but were priced at 45-50 points, they'd be decent.
Because then they're just relegated to deep strike rhino. We don't need redundant transport options.
A method of deep striking assault centurions would be fantastic. Or Furioso Dreadnoughts.
My first thought was about SW swoard&board dreads... being able to move 3" after deepstrike and then charge would be awesome for those things, even if you have to pay an extra 80 (or something) points for it.
A: allow them to land 6" away and cause a D3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy (within 8") when they land. Units disembarking cannot charge this turn.
B. Give them a stratagem that allows all your pods to count as one deployment and lets them drop down at the start of the move phase, but they cannot land in either players deployment zone. Units disembarking can then make a normal move+advance when they get out instead of just a regular disembark, however they still cannot charge. Probably a 3CP cost.
Keep the points as they are.
The only thing that accomplishes is a massive middle finger to anyone who wants to play choppy marines. Anything not BA has trouble enough getting in CC as is, no need to hand out more favours to shooty armies.
DA melee is all on bikes, BT are just wannabe melee. Assault marines should have jumppacks on anyway and not be in a pod.
Rievers cant ride in pods. Assault termies and centaurians cant ride in pods.
Marmatag wrote: Can you please explain the value of assault centurions, or centurions in general, now that they can't ride in pods and their cost is astronomical?
Lots of units were hurt badly by the drop pod nerf-sledgehammer.
But this is a losing battle. If i've learned one thing on Dakka Dakka, is that people want bad things to stay bad.
For the record, I don't actually have a problem with expanding the use of the drop pod to other units. some centurians, or a single dread. Sure. No problem.
My issue is the crazy suggestions. Breaking the 9" DS. Allowing movement after disembarkment. 35 points.
None of that makes the DP fair in comparison to any of the other armies out there. None of it fixes the actual issue you have with the DP (poor unit selection to ride in it. Tac marines being not great). I have seen enough good use with devestators out of it to say it's not useless now. But being a delivery method for a single unit is bs. I can agree with that. In the same way that I think the Tcytes issue is it's restrictive capacity I think the drop pods issue is its restrictive unit selection.
Open them up and they would be fine. These other suggestions are nonsense.
A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.
Marmatag wrote: A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.
Mortal wounds when deep striking into base contact
allow it to charge from orbit
lols ensue
(seriously you should be able to use pods offensively)
Marmatag wrote: A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.
Mortal wounds when deep striking into base contact
allow it to charge from orbit
lols ensue
(seriously you should be able to use pods offensively)
Or just use them period. Their current use case is garbage.
But dealing mortal wounds when crashing within 10" might be interesting. Meteoric Descent special rule. Although to me that doesn't solve the problem of their failed utility.
Marmatag wrote: A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.
Ok. Sitw is a blanket whole table -1 to leadership. It increases to -2 if your within 18" of a synapse creature and its a constant -3 if the unit is a psyker. -2 to manifest powers and if you fail it kills the model. Tcytes can also drop directly onto people.
Fluff does not equal crunch and anyone who argues for crunch based on fluff probably shouldnt participate in rules discussions.
I'm just going to make the point that the Callidus assassin can "deep strike" D6+3" so forgo the ability to move afterward as people have been saying for this and I'd be happy to take a squad in a pod
Nothings guaranteed but its a lot more attractive than a flat 9". But hey roll a 3 or less and you're in melta range, which isn't that what this is really about?
And thats exactly it. The 9" limitation is based in large part around a lot of weapon ranges. The Callidus isn't running around with 10 models worth of meltas. It in fact has 1 gun that might not do anything and vs most characters has an iffy chance of doing d3 MW at most.
10 model capacity of Meltas would liquefy whatever target they hit. It's not even remotely comparable.
Lance845 wrote: And thats exactly it. The 9" limitation is based in large part around a lot of weapon ranges.
What ? There are very few weapons which dont have 9" range. The only weapons i can think of are grenades, meltabombs, flamers and inferno pistols. The 9" limitation is because of charge range. The chance is only 28% to roll a 9.
Lance845 wrote: 10 model capacity of Meltas would liquefy whatever target they hit. It's not even remotely comparable.
Lance845 wrote: And thats exactly it. The 9" limitation is based in large part around a lot of weapon ranges.
What ? There are very few weapons which dont have 9" range. The only weapons i can think of are grenades, meltabombs, flamers and inferno pistols. The 9" limitation is because of charge range. The chance is only 28% to roll a 9.
Lance845 wrote: 10 model capacity of Meltas would liquefy whatever target they hit. It's not even remotely comparable.
Last time i checked meltaguns had 12" range.
Flamers that auto hit. Melta that gets it's bonus at half range. Even Tau commanders with their 18" meltas because the >9" deepstrike means they don't get the bonus when they drop in.
I brought a pod to my last game just to test it out. Even with a unit of ten Sternguard, I wasn’t that impressed. I doubt I would bring it again at 50 points. Maybe Dev Squads are more potent in them. It seems that the people who say pods don’t need a big reduction, are the people who don’t play Marines.
Median Trace wrote: I brought a pod to my last game just to test it out. Even with a unit of ten Sternguard, I wasn’t that impressed. I doubt I would bring it again at 50 points. Maybe Dev Squads are more potent in them. It seems that the people who say pods don’t need a big reduction, are the people who don’t play Marines.
Devs do it best. Sternguard look more potent than they are.
When I do the pod thing I also bring 3 in order to maximise the effect. It used to be that a single pod doing a suicide hit was the way to go for a lot of people, but Imo that doesn't really work as you cant have as potent a hit-squad in it as say, Command squad or Sternguard Squad with all melta/combi-melta during 6th and 7th edition. You can't drop close enough for it to work well.
Instead I'm more using the Pods to create a new "front", and drop enough dangerous guys to have an immediate effect, but also last a while and force the opponent to spend more resources to grapple with them. The alpha strike of more units (usually 7 of them) is way more deadly, and more useful in the long run. Instead of the traditional 10 guys landing in the middle of the army on suicide run, its 30 guys off to the side in cover for a sustained attack that can also be supported with other units coming up.
I would like to do another type of drop which is just Devs with Lascannons (3 squads) as a much-harder-to-screen-against long range alpha. But I've been doing Tyranids recently and still have some work to do on the SM side before I can field it.
Median Trace wrote: I brought a pod to my last game just to test it out. Even with a unit of ten Sternguard, I wasn’t that impressed. I doubt I would bring it again at 50 points. Maybe Dev Squads are more potent in them. It seems that the people who say pods don’t need a big reduction, are the people who don’t play Marines.
Devs do it best. Sternguard look more potent than they are.
When I do the pod thing I also bring 3 in order to maximise the effect. It used to be that a single pod doing a suicide hit was the way to go for a lot of people, but Imo that doesn't really work as you cant have as potent a hit-squad in it as say, Command squad or Sternguard Squad with all melta/combi-melta during 6th and 7th edition. You can't drop close enough for it to work well.
Instead I'm more using the Pods to create a new "front", and drop enough dangerous guys to have an immediate effect, but also last a while and force the opponent to spend more resources to grapple with them. The alpha strike of more units (usually 7 of them) is way more deadly, and more useful in the long run. Instead of the traditional 10 guys landing in the middle of the army on suicide run, its 30 guys off to the side in cover for a sustained attack that can also be supported with other units coming up.
I would like to do another type of drop which is just Devs with Lascannons (3 squads) as a much-harder-to-screen-against long range alpha. But I've been doing Tyranids recently and still have some work to do on the SM side before I can field it.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
^That's true, although it depends on what else you're bringing. Mine's a two Battalion setup with more Characters and msu spam. I didn't bother with going "minimum drops" style list, although packing a bunch in transports helps.
Can you imagine the fear in your opponents eyes if you would have 3 drop pods deepnstrike intonthe fray. All delivering 10-man assualt plasma carrying Hellblasters...
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Well, JP arent free. And there is a dread drop pod from FW. Its no longer sold, but the rules are in the index forces of the adeptus astartes, or battlescribe. If proxys are allowed you can use a GW drop pod for it.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Why would Drop Pods need to carry Terminators? Terminators already Deep Strike.
The thing is, most Space Marine stuff with decent anti-tank firepower doesn't Deep Strike for free. That's why it's useful to pack Specials and Heavies on power armored guys in there.
I keep looking back at the Land Speeder sheet to see if it's magically changed to have a deep strike ability again.
Why would Drop Pods need to carry Terminators? Terminators already Deep Strike.
Exactly, that's one the reasons why drop pods are garbage. Terminators shouldn't be able to deep strike, simple. And the majoirty of other units that can do it for free shouldn't as well. I'd really like a game with everything deployed or embarked, if you want to get close to the enemy take a transport.
Terminators should be able to deep-strike, but they should go back to paying for it as an option (meaning you could reduce their cost because they're still way too expensive for what you get).
I'd be okay with more units losing Deep Strike, but not the wholesale culling people want to see.
Disposable: enemy units in combat with drop pods can still be targeted in the shooting phase, unless also in combat with units without the ‘disposable’ rule.
Why would Drop Pods need to carry Terminators? Terminators already Deep Strike.
Exactly, that's one the reasons why drop pods are garbage. Terminators shouldn't be able to deep strike, simple. And the majoirty of other units that can do it for free shouldn't as well. I'd really like a game with everything deployed or embarked, if you want to get close to the enemy take a transport.
Terminators teleporting into battle has been a thing for maybe as long as there have been Terminators, I don't think you're going to get any changes there. Plus, the restriction of deep strike to vehicles is rather arbitrary.
Nor do they really compete with Drop Pods, because Terminators don't have the same kind of ranged teeth that Grav, Plasma and Melta can.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.
Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.
Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.
Yes, the price should be changed as well, I think pods could worth 70 points like rinhos if they were the only way to deep strike marines. What I suggest is not removing options to everything, but clearly the only ability a pod has is to deep strike marines and if they have other cheaper ways to do it, the pods would be useless forever. Pods in 7th were utterly broken for that cost, they needed to be nerfed. Now the increased price cost (twice as expensive as before, not more) and the fact that flamers and meltas could not benefit for deep strike is enough. Allowing several different units to deep strike is a bad concept, IMHO every faction should have max 1 unit that could do that. I'd really like a game in which everything starts on the board, with the excpection maybe of a single unit, but something like 10% or less of the list.
That's where you are wrong. Pods were not broken at all in 7th. In fact, they were insta lose vs Tau. And you often needed a bunch of empty ones. I beat many pod lists with BA even.
Multiple deep strikers don't matter, because deep strike is super weak in 8th.
I've been using my drop pods to create "impassable terrain" (using the 1" rule until destroyed) and to create bottlenecks to cut off conga lines as of late, although with limited success. It definitely is too expensive for a transport for alpha strikes - nor do the contents inside pose same level of threats as it did in 7th.
If i were to roll with what some of us have been saying in this post - if the pod's old 'no scatter' rule can be somehow incorporated into the game, it's use could be lot better. To balance things out, units disembarking from drop pods shouldn't be able to charge in the turn they arrive.
Using Terror from the Deep as a template:
Drop Pod Assault: During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your movement phases this model can perform a drop pod assault - set it up anywhere in the battlefield more than 1" away from any enemy units and 6" away from any other drop pods Drop Pods set up this way this turn, then roll a d6 for each enemy units within 2" of it; on a 1, the unit escapes unharmed, on a 2-3 it suffers 1 mortal wound, on a 4-5 it suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Then, any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 1" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain. Any models that disembarked from drop pods cannot charge in the same turn.
What needs to be clarified then, is to determine whether the 1" is measured from the pod's closed/open position. Right now, there's really not much "assault" about the whole drop pod ASSAULT business IMO. It should just be called "Drop Pod Deployment" as it stands.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.
Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.
Yes, the price should be changed as well, I think pods could worth 70 points like rinhos if they were the only way to deep strike marines. What I suggest is not removing options to everything, but clearly the only ability a pod has is to deep strike marines and if they have other cheaper ways to do it, the pods would be useless forever. Pods in 7th were utterly broken for that cost, they needed to be nerfed. Now the increased price cost (twice as expensive as before, not more) and the fact that flamers and meltas could not benefit for deep strike is enough. Allowing several different units to deep strike is a bad concept, IMHO every faction should have max 1 unit that could do that. I'd really like a game in which everything starts on the board, with the excpection maybe of a single unit, but something like 10% or less of the list.
NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
The handful of people in my area that run pods don't run full pod armies, and they pretty much always have either scouts or razorbacks, or both, on table during deployment.
NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.
Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.
Yes, 1-2 armies could counter them, but in the game there are 20ish factions. If you consider "broken" only the 1-2 best lists in the game you may be right, and in fact SM had a list which was even more broken, but when I say broken I consider the 6-7 most effective lists/combinations and pods spam was one of the best lists in the game, just countered by other SM, tau and eldar and only by their most competitive lists.
Blackie wrote: Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.
Its exactly as you say - it was the formation and grav weapons that were broken, not the pods themselves.
Martel732 wrote: Grav was only broken against units that were already nigh unusable. Grav was necessary.
True, but it was the only weapon that was both TAC and Specialist gun at the same time - kind of like what assault cannon was but also great against high armor as this was often reflected as +2 Sv.
And for those who believe pods were broken in 7th, pods were just a delivery system for broken formations - I feel like you're thinking pods were broken only because transports were so easy to pop in 7th ed, and drop pods were the only transport that didn't die before being able to deliver its contents reliably. Transports in general were just trash in 7th (of course with few exceptions) - they only served the purpose of keeping your units alive against an alpha strike and not necessarily to ferry units across the battlefield.
NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.
Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.
Yes, 1-2 armies could counter them, but in the game there are 20ish factions. If you consider "broken" only the 1-2 best lists in the game you may be right, and in fact SM had a list which was even more broken, but when I say broken I consider the 6-7 most effective lists/combinations and pods spam was one of the best lists in the game, just countered by other SM, tau and eldar and only by their most competitive lists.
Neither of those formations were broken. And you're kinda blaming the formations more. In fact, Skyhammer was only good against newer opponents that hadn't learned a thing about null deployment or a bit of screening.
That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.
That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.
Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.
Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.
Yes, the price should be changed as well, I think pods could worth 70 points like rinhos if they were the only way to deep strike marines. What I suggest is not removing options to everything, but clearly the only ability a pod has is to deep strike marines and if they have other cheaper ways to do it, the pods would be useless forever. Pods in 7th were utterly broken for that cost, they needed to be nerfed. Now the increased price cost (twice as expensive as before, not more) and the fact that flamers and meltas could not benefit for deep strike is enough. Allowing several different units to deep strike is a bad concept, IMHO every faction should have max 1 unit that could do that. I'd really like a game in which everything starts on the board, with the excpection maybe of a single unit, but something like 10% or less of the list.
NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.
I considered it pretty broken when IG would take space marine allies with fast attack drop pods and then load them with command squads for 4 ignore cover meltas hitting on 3+. They fixed that nonsense though.
You'd be spending, what, like 800 points to get 4 captains into combat? And the savings is minimal, considering a jump pack is 1/4th of a pod and they can all take packs. So you only save 80 points but lose out on mobility and the ability to deploy them individually all over the map.
Meanwhile, Alpha Legion spends that much and gets like 400 attacks guaranteed turn 1.
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
Charge Devilgaunts that shoot 90 times.
JNAProductions wrote:15 hits. 7.5 wounds against T4. 2.5 wounds against a 3+.
That's, uh... Technically something.
Yup. 90 shots from a 30 devilgaunt blob SOUNDS intimidating. But you know what? Mathed out... Worth the risk.
Also, this is assuming a 30 devilgaunt blob was sitting around not being shot in your shooting phase. Every 1 gaunt dead (very easy to do) is 3 less shots and a drastic reduction in end effectivness.
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
Charge Devilgaunts that shoot 90 times.
JNAProductions wrote:15 hits. 7.5 wounds against T4. 2.5 wounds against a 3+.
That's, uh... Technically something.
Yup. 90 shots from a 30 devilgaunt blob SOUNDS intimidating. But you know what? Mathed out... Worth the risk.
Also, this is assuming a 30 devilgaunt blob was sitting around not being shot in your shooting phase. Every 1 gaunt dead (very easy to do) is 3 less shots and a drastic reduction in end effectivness.
That'll kill 4-5 genestealers, 3-4 scorpions, and even if it's still T4 3+ we could be talking about Vanguard or some other more expensive model. Or for yucks, guardsmen, who will lose 7-8 models. Hormagaunts 8-9. It's enough to consider sending something else in to soak it, especially if you're dealing with small squads or remnants.
Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby.
If you charge a full squad of guardsmen into 30 Devilguants, 2-3 will live. Then, you charge in Bullgryns, who now no longer have to fear overwatch.
Or, hell, you charge the Gryns in first. 90 shots is 7.5 hits is 2.5 wounds is not even one dead Ogryn or Bullgryn.
I'll agree that, on the off chance you're charging a weakened Infantry squad into an untouched Devilgaunt squad, it matters. But, without special circumstances (such as D-Scythe Wraithguard) overwatch just doesn't mean much.
JNAProductions wrote: If you charge a full squad of guardsmen into 30 Devilguants, 2-3 will live. Then, you charge in Bullgryns, who now no longer have to fear overwatch.
Or, hell, you charge the Gryns in first. 90 shots is 7.5 hits is 2.5 wounds is not even one dead Ogryn or Bullgryn.
I'll agree that, on the off chance you're charging a weakened Infantry squad into an untouched Devilgaunt squad, it matters. But, without special circumstances (such as D-Scythe Wraithguard) overwatch just doesn't mean much.
Imo Overwatch does it's job. It trims off the no-risk hail-mary charges that would be happening if it weren't there. The potential 11-12" charge to shut off an enemies firing for the next turn would be taken by more units otherwise. It also means that for successful assaults at close range, you sometimes have to commit more resources to pull it off, like your guard-Bullgryn example.
Martel732 wrote: The ig will always have those 7-8 models to sacrifice. Or just forget overwatch and annihilate them with mortars.
IG can lose 50 models a turn and easily be pulling ahead.
To bring back the context of the larger discussion, are you , Blood-Angel Martel, really one to not care about Overwatch?
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
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Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
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Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.
"But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "
I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.
I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.
Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
Sometimes overwatch do change the game.
I did lose game to overwatch, once upon a time I try to charge 3 Comtemptor Dreadnoughts into an Eldar "Lynx" (might got the name wrong, not familar with Eldar FW tanks, but I am certain it is a Super Heavy Skimmer with Pulsar, have a 5++ if it moved) buffed by Farseer with "guide", he rolls incredible in hitting so hit each charging Dread 3 times and rolls very high on that 2D6 damage. That 3 dread are all dead from full 10W health in my own charging phase. Then I just concided, cause by when the only powerful battle unit I have left is Guilliman himself and 5 Hellblasters.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
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Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.
Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.
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Martel732 wrote: "But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "
I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.
I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.
You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.
I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.
"You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous"
I would be, if that's exclusively why I put that unit in my list. Turns out Farseer+dark reaper is better than any overwatch could hope to be. I already stated there were a few specific kinds of overwatch that are threats. Everything else is gak. Pretty simple. The devil gaunts, for their cost, accomplish little in overwatch. It's free, but that's about it. Killing seven guardsmen is a footnote, not a feature.
BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.
Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: "But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "
I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.
I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.
You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.
I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.
Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?
BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.
By math, a 4 Grav Devastator squad coming out of a pod near Guilliman have more than 50% chance of taking 10W from T6 - T9 Sv3+ targets. That should cripple things like Leman Russ Tank or Exocrines, dropping them to their last bracket of stats if not killing them outright. Of course, if you are like me, who always roll extremely bad even with rerolls, then this combination might not even take 3W from a rhino.
The combination would run into trouble when aganist something with a decent Inv save. Like a Flyrant or Dreadknight Master, that 4+ inv gonna make the 4 Gravs dealing only 6W on it.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.
Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.
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Martel732 wrote: "But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "
I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.
I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.
You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.
I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.
Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?
If you look yet again you'll see I said "Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby."
Which is beside the point now, considering that you claim a single Grav Cannons is something "to worry about" in the other thread when it averages 1.5 wounds vs. MEQ, yet here when overwatch threatens three times that amount it "really isn't dangerous". To quote you again:
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.
But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.
Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.
Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: "But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "
I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.
I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.
You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.
Lance845 wrote: Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.
In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.
1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.
2. And what about bloodletters?
You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.
I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.
Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?
If you look yet again you'll see I said "Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby."
Which is beside the point now, considering that you claim a single Grav Cannons is something "to worry about" in the other thread when it averages 1.5 wounds vs. MEQ, yet here when overwatch threatens three times that amount it "really isn't dangerous". To quote you again:
Martel732 wrote: I already stated there were a few specific kinds of overwatch that are threats.
That's all there needs to be for it to merit inclusion in the game.
Martel732 wrote: BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.
Grav Cannons are better anti GEQ than a Heavy Bolter, Better anti-Elite than Plasma, and Better Anti-Tank than a Lascannon.
10 Reapers no upgrades average 5.9 MEQ kills.
4 Grav Cannons no upgrades average 5.89 MEQ kills.
1. I could probably charge a Hero into that and be alright. Rowboat nearby the minimum squad only inflicts 4 wounds on the hero with a 4++, and 3 with a 3++. I'm pretty comfortable with that.
2. Grav Cannons are a threat with regular shooting. Nothing is a threat on Overwatch besides DScythes (which is the exception, not the rule obviously), even rerolling every frickin roll.
3. Grav Cannons are not better anti-GEQ. The Grav Cannon is 25 (?) and two Heavy Bolters are 20 points. The Grav Cannon kills 1.8 Guard and the Heavy Bolters 2.2. If the Grav Cannon is closer to 30 points (because I want to say it was 25 or 28), three Heavy Bolters kill 3.3 Guard. Grav Cannons will outperform Plasma outside 12", but once inside Plasma Guns get the benefit of having more strength doing more work. I won't argue on Lascannons as you're correct in the math on that one; you pay for the convenience of having 48" for the weapon.
I'm not dismissing Grav Cannons as an awesome weapon, but to say they're that much better was a severe overstatement (especially the Heavy Bolter part, which was super absurd).
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?
Grav Cannons are 25 points, right? And Heavy Bolters 10?
So that's 170 for 20 Grav shots, and 220 for 32 H.Bolter shots.
Finding the LCM, it is... 3740 points. Right... Was hoping for a lower number, but it'll do.
So that's 440 Grav Shots as compared to 544 H.Bolter shots.
Grav 440 shots
880/3 hits
1,760/9 wounds
1,760/9 dead GEQs, or 195.56.
Heavy Bolter 544 shots
1,088/3 hits
2,176/9 wounds
10,880/54 unsaved wounds, for 201.48 dead GEQ.
Heavy Bolters are about 3% more efficient than Grav system at killing GEQs when taking on Devastators.
Grav Cannons are 28, so score a few extra percent on the Heavy Bolter side of it. But it takes a certain kind of dakka-ite to call my statement "super absurd" when I think it's pretty clear that I'm comparing a single weapon to a single weapon. A Grav Cannon does average more kills than a Heavy Bolter againat GEQs.
Otherwise the conversation about Grav Cannons is simply to illustrate that overwatch can't just be ignored by elites. Lighter troops have to contend with it all the time, Daemons, Gaunts, Orks all have to contend with it vs. Lighter weapons. To say that overwatch is a waste of time is pretty foolhardy, imo.
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?
I pay it. I don't know what the exact cost of Dark Reapers is but I think a ten man squad is comparable cost to a small Dev squad with Grav+Cherub in a Pod, and they do comparable damage to MEQ/elites.
Grav Cannons are 25 points, right? And Heavy Bolters 10?
So that's 170 for 20 Grav shots, and 220 for 32 H.Bolter shots.
Finding the LCM, it is... 3740 points. Right... Was hoping for a lower number, but it'll do.
So that's 440 Grav Shots as compared to 544 H.Bolter shots.
Grav 440 shots
880/3 hits
1,760/9 wounds
1,760/9 dead GEQs, or 195.56.
Heavy Bolter 544 shots
1,088/3 hits
2,176/9 wounds
10,880/54 unsaved wounds, for 201.48 dead GEQ.
Heavy Bolters are about 3% more efficient than Grav system at killing GEQs when taking on Devastators.
Grav Cannons are 28, so score a few extra percent on the Heavy Bolter side of it. But it takes a certain kind of dakka-ite to call my statement "super absurd" when I think it's pretty clear that I'm comparing a single weapon to a single weapon. A Grav Cannon does average more kills than a Heavy Bolter againat GEQs.
Otherwise the conversation about Grav Cannons is simply to illustrate that overwatch can't just be ignored by elites. Lighter troops have to contend with it all the time, Daemons, Gaunts, Orks all have to contend with it vs. Lighter weapons. To say that overwatch is a waste of time is pretty foolhardy, imo.
Lance845 wrote: Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.
This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?
I pay it. I don't know what the exact cost of Dark Reapers is but I think a ten man squad is comparable cost to a small Dev squad with Grav+Cherub in a Pod, and they do comparable damage to MEQ/elites.
Single weapon vs single weapon a Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Thunderfire Cannon, Heavy Flamer, etc. is better against GEQ than a Heavy Bolter. That's not how you check these things though. It never WAS.
1. Increase their points back to 100 with the stormbolter as standard.
2. Allow the owning player to spend reinforcement points on the contents, albeit not on HQs. Possibly not on elites either since that can get weird.
So:
Gaunts got you down? two tac squads with flamers
Lost your Anti Tank assets? Git yew some lascannons boy
Not enough Vanguard in your life? Add some tooled up crusaders to the mix
Fluffy, dangerous, and with the minimum 50% of the army on the board rule, a bit difficult to abuse since they still have to be taken as dedicated transports (so if you want to abuse cheap IG troops/elites/hq choices, you lose your doctrine AND your chapter tactics). 80 points for a glorified jump pack is a waste. A 100 point tax for whatever you need, is a perfectly acceptable overhead.
1. Increase their points back to 100 with the stormbolter as standard.
2. Allow the owning player to spend reinforcement points on the contents, albeit not on HQs. Possibly not on elites either since that can get weird.
So:
Gaunts got you down? two tac squads with flamers
Lost your Anti Tank assets? Git yew some lascannons boy
Not enough Vanguard in your life? Add some tooled up crusaders to the mix
Fluffy, dangerous, and with the minimum 50% of the army on the board rule, a bit difficult to abuse since they still have to be taken as dedicated transports (so if you want to abuse cheap IG troops/elites/hq choices, you lose your doctrine AND your chapter tactics). 80 points for a glorified jump pack is a waste. A 100 point tax for whatever you need, is a perfectly acceptable overhead.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
I fail to see your point?
Admittedly i've been making the conventional method of throwing flying multimeltas at people work lately, and the option to take, say HBolter Centurions (or even just HBolter Devs) when facing an infantry army would be welcome.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, you can't just ignore points costs. Marines are, in pretty much every way, better than Guardsmen model per model.
But point for point... They're not.
Depends on how you're using them, just like the weapons they are equipped with. Comparing weapon efficacy in a vacuum with point values is one thing, comparing them in their availability is another, and comparing them as part of your lists overall strategic stance is another. All are important.
My original comparison is on a one to one basis because thats the way I choose my squads (each gets a limited number of weapons), and those are standard choices. I select a Devastator squad and then the four weapons to equip them with. Paying a few more points gets me a weapon that makes that squad more effective than any other loadout within the tighter range bracket that I expect to operate in. All contexts accounted for, points, availability and mission expectation. Yes, technically speaking Heavy Bolters point for point will outperfom Grav Cannons against GEQ, but it is also true that a single Grav Cannon will out-kill a single Heavy Bolter. Both statements are true, which is why it's ridiculous to say the latter is an absurd statement. Within the context of "what do I give my squad", it's a perfectly viable datapoint, though one of several including "how much will it cost".
In any case, I think of the extra horde killing as a curious bonus, rather than a strategic tool because you want to be using your Devastators against high value targets anyways. At the end of the day Grav Cannons are both effective against a wide range of targets, and easy to deploy in the form of Devastators. Heavy Bolters are ok against hordes, but it seems difficult to deploy enough of them to be effective, especially if you compare them to Assault Cannons and theor popular platform, (or just more marines).
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
summoning isn't a psychic power anymore. you give up all of your movement on the character in question, roll some dice to maybe get enough power to get what you need, pay reinfrocement points for the summoned unit which suffers all the usual deep-strike restrictions.
I don't really have a stake in this fight anymore since I hopped the fence to the spiky side, but at least if making comparisons to summoning the facts should be accurate.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.
I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.
I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.
Well... You have around 45% chance to take out a Land Raider with those 8 drop MM, but only if you have Guilliman close by. If they are all on their own, they might have 50% chance killing a Manticore / Predators and better chance killing anything rhino equivenlant.
Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.
Arguably the summoner
And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.
Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.
Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.
Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.
I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.
Well... You have around 45% chance to take out a Land Raider with those 8 drop MM, but only if you have Guilliman close by. If they are all on their own, they might have 50% chance killing a Manticore / Predators and better chance killing anything rhino equivenlant.
Drop MMEltas are part of my standard list at the moment since I got tired of win-button guard. With a captain coming down on a jump pack with them they have done some suitably heroic things, specifically doing enough shock damage on a key enemy unit to render said unit inert or at least consider redeployment. It also forces shooting at the mmeltas wether the opponent wants to or not, which is valuable all on its own in the vein of the DISTRACTION CARNIFEX.
In the broader context, it means the hostiles which threaten my knights the most tend to melt before they can do anything, with little to no recourse.
That said, being able to swap them for 2 10 man tac squads to swamp objectives on turn 3 would be very nice if MMeltas are the wrong answer.
And Big Oops in regards to summoning; i've obviously misunderstood the one and only time I saw it happen.
