I really think their designs are a step backwards. Size wise, I get it. Marines are much taller than the average human and their models might as well reflect it, but the actual designs and troop types are terrible. And the skull face masks for the Reivers are really out of place, especially on guys like the Ultramarines. And the normal masks are lame too. Granted I grew up with the earliest editions of 40k, so I know we've had some silly designs in the past, but I really think the look and feel of Marines really peaked in 6th-7th.

I have heard rumors that eventually the old marines will be phased out, so maybe some of what we've had in the 'normal' marines will creep into the new ones, but honestly, I have zero interest in buying any, and its kept me from buying any of the starter sets, which I normally love to do.

* Maybe I should have posted this in the 40k forum...

The answer is no, it is always no to "Am I the only one" sorts o posts.

Also given that Ultramarine Chaplains have full on skull faced helmets.. I'm not sure what the issue with the masks are.

Well, the Chaplins whole look compliments their masks. The Reivers just look out of place. On some chapters they might look right, but on many it looks silly. I assume they are meant to look terrifying in close combat, but just don't go far enough for that, and at the same time, look silly because they don't go far enough. Its like they picked up some masks from the dollar store before heading into combat because they thought it would cool.

I don't like the helmets that much, but they are basically a better version of the MKIV one, and people love that so...

FOr the rest, your basic Intercessor isn't really any different in style than your basic Tactical. Just minor differences and better proportions.

You're not obligated to follow the GW standard paint scheme for your Reivers. I went with full helmets and did a uniform colour on the helmet rather than the contrasting skull-face GW does, and it looks much better.

I despise the new background and the models would be at least 87% cooler if they were just *proper* Space Marines with better size and proportions, but aside from a few minor quibbles(Reavers are silly and the layered armour can get a bit much on some models, also their vehicles are garbo) the models are very well executed.

At the very least, they provide a solid basis for converting consistently-sized truescale Proper Marines.

I think they're hit or miss. However I definitely don't think Marines "peaked" in 6th/7th...I think that was one of their worst periods, simply from a "too much crap" perspective.

If...(sigh)...they had done one more Horus Heresy boxed game with proper plastic MkVI's...all would be right with the world.

 Elbows wrote:
I think they're hit or miss. However I definitely don't think Marines "peaked" in 6th/7th...I think that was one of their worst periods, simply from a "too much crap" perspective.

If...(sigh)...they had done one more Horus Heresy boxed game with proper plastic MkVI's...all would be right with the world.

Raven Guard would have gotten love.

We can't have that.

KTG17 wrote:
I really think their designs are a step backwards. Size wise, I get it. Marines are much taller than the average human and their models might as well reflect it, but the actual designs and troop types are terrible. And the skull face masks for the Reivers are really out of place, especially on guys like the Ultramarines. And the normal masks are lame too. Granted I grew up with the earliest editions of 40k, so I know we've had some silly designs in the past, but I really think the look and feel of Marines really peaked in 6th-7th.

I have heard rumors that eventually the old marines will be phased out, so maybe some of what we've had in the 'normal' marines will creep into the new ones, but honestly, I have zero interest in buying any, and its kept me from buying any of the starter sets, which I normally love to do.

* Maybe I should have posted this in the 40k forum...

I have no problem with the basic power armored guys (Intercessors/Hellblasters/Chaplain/etc). They're just taller Marines. I think the proportions look much better. I'm not a huge fan of the lack of options on the squads. I was hoping that Intercessors would be like Tactical Marines where one guy could take a special, one guy could take a heavy and the Sarge could be kitted out however you want. What we got was a more or less fixed unit with very little wargear flexibility. I was pleased with the look and feel, but disappointed with the kit options and datasheet.

I like the look of the Aggressors/Gravis Captain. I haven't seen them used in game, but it looks like they also suffer from a lack of options.

I'm not a fan of the Inceptors. The foot skids look a bit silly to me. They seem like they'd be super awkward and unable to move around easily when grounded. Again, lack of options are a downside.

I have mixed feelings on the Repuslor. I'm not averse to the idea of a grav tank, but I really don't like the plethora of little grav plates all over the bottom. The Redemptor is ok, but I far prefer the aethetic of the Contemptor and Leviathan Dreads.

If you hate something wargaming related, you're never the only one on Dakka...

My big issues with them are lack of options and lack of modularity. These are the main reasons I like Marines to begin with.

They don;t bother me - they are quite nice models, bit expensive, but certianly much better, IMO than Centurions or Dreadknights.

Both of which were retconned in rather than bothering to have new fluff like Primaris.

the models dont necessarily bother me so much, just true scale marines which works perfectly for my INQ28mm games and other such role playing (I agree the tanks are utter crap as are their "assault" troops) what really grinds my gears is the way they handled them in the lore. "Oh, your chapter is suffering massive losses? the odds are stacked against you? Here comes girlyman and his magic better marines to save the day!" new codex release... rinse and repeat.

 supreme overlord wrote:
the models dont necessarily bother me so much, just true scale marines which works perfectly for my INQ28mm games and other such role playing (I agree the tanks are utter crap as are their "assault" troops) what really grinds my gears is the way they handled them in the lore. "Oh, your chapter is suffering massive losses? the odds are stacked against you? Here comes girlyman and his magic better marines to save the day!" new codex release... rinse and repeat.

Pretty much how Marines are normally used - Hey warriors of "X" Faction the Marines are here to kick ass and save you cos we are the best.

Why would it be different with Big Marines now coming to save Small Marines.

I like the Primaris Marines a lot. I think they are some of the best sculpts GW has ever done and shows they are really pushing the boundaries of how you make plastic minis. I do wish they were more posable though.

I would have liked them less if I already had a marine army and suddenly all the cool new stuff was too big to match my old stuff. Luckily I had no marines before, so now I'm starting a new marine army with only primaris sized stuff

 Mr Morden wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
the models dont necessarily bother me so much, just true scale marines which works perfectly for my INQ28mm games and other such role playing (I agree the tanks are utter crap as are their "assault" troops) what really grinds my gears is the way they handled them in the lore. "Oh, your chapter is suffering massive losses? the odds are stacked against you? Here comes girlyman and his magic better marines to save the day!" new codex release... rinse and repeat.

Pretty much how Marines are normally used - Hey warriors of "X" Faction the Marines are here to kick ass and save you cos we are the best.

Why would it be different with Big Marines now coming to save Small Marines.

because it's poorly written and lazy. They could've used the Dark Angels codex as an opportunity to say "we have secrets, we dont want your magic marines in our army. time for civil war." instead they repeated the same tired story we heard with the blood angels... just lazy.

Not overly keen on them as a concept, marines started out as humans in power armour, then humans with a bit of augmentation in power armour and they were easy to relate to.

The "super human" stuff I can leave behind.

The new models are much better proportioned though and I appreciate the way they are reasonably plan without "bling" on every smooth surface

KTG17 wrote:
I really think their designs are a step backwards.

They're properly sized and far better proportioned than normal marine models - this is coming from someone who loves MkIV marines. They're not in a gorilla squat. They're NOT covered in skulls and crap (the odd purity seal I can live with). They're sculpted to actually have the room for pistol holsters and ammo packs. From an aesthetic design perspective, they're far, far better looking models.

From a game perspective, they lack options compared to regular marines. That's really the only strike against them.

I really like the Primaris Marines and I don't really care about how they look different to "normal" marines.

I have a mix of the two and they each compliment each other on the table.

Fluff-wise I'm not too impressed at how they did it, but expectations weren't too high to begin with.

I prefer them to the old marines. The old marines looked pretty poor when they came out several decades ago and they haven't aged well.

They have been a controversial choice, but every new model is. GW players are definitely the climax of 'dont touch my cheese' players.

The armor is better, and scale is nice. The primaris do suffer from a lack of flexibility compared to the older marines, but that was probably a nice bone for GW to throw the oldmarines players. I get my extra wound and nicer model, but that guy who hasn't bought new models since '97 still gets to feel like he has a competitive edge with his special weapons and devastator lascannon squads.

The big question is if the unique characters will get their scale upgrades. I don't want to field Azriel or Bahial (prob mispelled those) with them looking so stumpy compared to my Primaris Intercessors.

Model wise I think they're fantastic. This is what I wish marines were like fifteen years ago!m

I detest them, and vote with my wallet to not purchase any of them, in the hopes of dissuading GW from phasing out the old marines by continuing to support their sales.

I believe I'm in a minority however.

I'm basically ok with them, with the exception of the reivers, because yeah, those skeleton faces look goofy as can be. Head swaps!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think they're hit or miss. However I definitely don't think Marines "peaked" in 6th/7th...I think that was one of their worst periods, simply from a "too much crap" perspective.

If...(sigh)...they had done one more Horus Heresy boxed game with proper plastic MkVI's...all would be right with the world.

Alpha Legion would have gotten love.

We can't have that.

FTFY

I started typing a snarky respond here, mostly aimed at "Am I the only one that..." when I realized that would really not add anything to this discussion (also I am listening to christmas songs and just extremly relaxed, so no interest in souring my mood).

Regarding the topic: I can see why people don't like the Primaris as I don't think they were thought through 100%. Here's my two cents:

Model-wise I think they are fine. Arguing about subjective tastes is silly, but I think something most people can agree on in that GWs model's quality has risen quite drastically. The Primaris are fine models, even when I don't like some things personally. Again, quite subjective, so no hard feelings here.

What I don't quite enjoy is the introduction. With Cadia fallen and the divided Imperium it set up a really nice, even more dystopian plot for the 42nd millenium. I even think that Guiliman's return was interesting in that advent. Even seeing his quite sizable force melting on his way from Ultramar to Terra just fit in (with the exception of their capture by the Red Corsairs... pretty sure they would have become new deco for all their spikes instantly, but that is not topic here).
But then... In all this great shake-up, Cawl just says: "Oh, nearly forgot, take all these super-duper Marines you ordered 10000 years back. Want them now, I think I have them stored somewhere here!" Honestly, wouldn't it kind of... I don't know, attract attention if Cawl just stored a couple thousand better-Marines on Mars and some random labs, training and equipping them? Why didn't he unleashed them during some of the other times of need? War of the Beast? Age of Apostasy? Wars for Armageddon? I don't know, 13th Black Crusade? Was he really that sure that Guiliman will just finish physiotherapy and lead again? Also, is it really feasible for a Tech-guy to live that long?

Ok, I thought when I heard about all that, fine, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt seeing as these Primaris will probably have some Lamenters-inspired flaw.
Oh, they don't. They are just better. Oh, and they don't get swayed to Chaos because they are THAT loyal?

I am sorry, that is just LAME. The status quo did NOT change with all that stuff. Imperium's pretty much on the same stage as before: Said to be on the brink of destruction, but holding up quite well.
Seriously, there has to be SOME flaw with theses guys. Not just: They are Space Marines, so they are incredibly rare and a valuable resource! Give me something. Would love some Thunder Warriors-shenanigans: Super powerful, but short-lived and rather violent. Anything, really.

Now to the additions themselves. I want to add some things to them, both rule-wise and fluff-wise.

- I don't like the restricitions for wargear. On all of them. Sure, there probably are fewer combinations of stuff that are worth it then I think there are, some of mine are probably horrid and I just sink way to many points in my dudes... But that is a substantial part for me! Why can't a Primaris captain have on Power Hammer? Why no special pistols? They introduced grav pistols only a couple of years back.
- Next up is Gravis armor. I don't think that was thought through. Big bulky, better armored suit of PA that is a bit slower then the regular thing? Squads wearing these armors have power fists with bolt weapons with a high rate of fire? Now where did see that again?

Gravis is, for me, something that is too similar to Terminator armor, a type of armor that is so iconic for the Space Marines it isn't funny anymore.
Also, don't like the look of neither the thing itself nor the look of the boltstorm fists. Subjective, but still.
- Hellblasters are... kind of odd. I am not a fan of disregarding all the cool types of weapons. Why only plasma? I would have a lot less problems with them if they had a super-lascannon, a hyper-heavy bolter, something, really. They definitely do kick their opponents backside, sure, but once again, a bit more variety would be fine (I am aware they actually have 3 weapons, but they still all obliterate all with plasma).
- Reivers are actually a cool concept, finally a unit set on sneaking apart from scouts. But... their rules feel a tad... lacking. I don't really see their points. Maybe there is a gimmick I don't have discovered yet (probably has somehting to do with their morale decreasing super-scary skull masks). Model-wise, they are fine and I really want a box of them to set up.
- Inceptors really have grown on me. At first, I did not like their look, but that has changed. I really like their jump-pack-based-mobile-firepower niche and I will definitely get a couple of them (with attack bolters, I think the plasma guns look silly. Also, more plasma..). But what I pretty much decided for myself is that I'll head canon their "dropped from lower orbit"-thing. So, Thunderhawks will have to carry and drop them. Still, I really like these guys.
- The Redemptor Dread is rather intruiging, especially since it comes with a plausible flaw! *gasp* Minor nitpick I have with them is their still a bit lacking customization. Plasma and gatling. Well, at least something!
- The Repulsor ist... odd in my eyes. I can see the appeal, but when I first saw it I actually thought it would be some kind of looted vehicle by the Orks, with all that dakka on there. Ok, I was wrong there, but still... If I get one of these times, I will probably heavily convert this thing and reduce the amount of guns on that thing. Rule-wise, they are ok, I have more a problem with the fact that all vehicles are either Primaris- or Oldmarine exclusive. I don't really see the point, but hey, I probably will only field a small amount of Primaris, so no big deal in my eyes.

Ok, that got more rant-y than I expected. Oh well. Guess a TLR: Primaris are for me model-wise pretty cool, rule-wise mediocre to not-thought-fully-through and fluff-wise pretty stupid and a bit too deus-ex-machina.

3 words "New York Giants" that is one of the weird reasons I despise the primaris, I cant look at that stupid helmet (with gws paint scheme) and not think of the loathed giants. otherwise the kneepads and the size, not a big fan of the backpacks either. the other primaris types I just think look ridiculous. and I dont like the scale creep in models for my 6x4 board. fluff wise there is nothing about primaris i dont think sucks ass.

I absolutely fething adore the Primaris marines and would happily never use an old marine ever again if that was an option. Unfortunately not really an option for my Space Wolves (too many bikes and wolf cavalry with no Primaris option), but I have a UM army in the works that is all Primaris all the time.

That said, I agree about both the Primaris Helmets and the Reiver helmets. I swapped out to the regular MK8 helmets on every single one of the heads, including the Gravis and Inceptor models. For Reivers I ordered resin bare heads w/ berets from puppetswar, the skull masks don't do a lot for me (although they'd make for EXCELLENT chaplain helmets!)

But yeah, the Primaris marines are so much better than regular marines it makes me a little sad that they aren't completely replacing the entire line.

Mark IV helmets are the best helmets.

How compatible are the larger Primaris Marines with parts from other Kits, like helmets, shoulder pads etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Mark IV helmets are the best helmets.

I'm a Raven Guard player, so I have to disagree and propose the Mark V beaky helmets.

How compatible are the larger Primaris Marines with parts from other Kits, like helmets, shoulder pads etc?

The helmets and shoulder pads are completely interchangeable (the shoulder pads may need some cutting to remove since at the least the DI primaris have them cast on). They're actually the same size as all other marines, which contributes to the primaris looking better scaled.

Other elements like the arms or legs would obviously be way too big for old marines.

 Kalamadea wrote:
But yeah, the Primaris marines are so much better than regular marines it makes me a little sad that they aren't completely replacing the entire line.

Pretty much how I feel. If they'd been introduced as just normal Space Marines in a new Mark of power armour, it could fix some of the more ridiculous aspects of both lines (eg. Aggressors instead of Centurions, larger Assault Marines instead of goofy Inceptors, etc). There'd also be no need for the awful-at-best Primaris fluff to justify their existence.

It would also be something of a middle ground for long-time Space Marine players who may feel hardly done by. If the change is purely aesthetic, then all of their older miniatures are still perfectly viable in game, so they won't be under any obligation to fork out any more money. Most armies, including Marines, have undergone radical changes in size and scale since the beginning; it'd hardly be a uniquely unfair treatment.

I prefer the older helmet designs, with snout and grille. Luckily however, helmets are interchangeable and apart from the helmet the Primaris are a step up in every regard. I just wish GW hadn't made them into a completely separate thing from normal Marines. It would have been better if it had just been a new mark of armour.

 Necros wrote:
I like the Primaris Marines a lot. I think they are some of the best sculpts GW has ever done and shows they are really pushing the boundaries of how you make plastic minis. I do wish they were more posable though.

Best sculpts and pushing the boundaries of how to make plastic figures...? Yet they don't do something most 10 year old plastic models can. Ah well...

I don't dislike the models. Enlarging the scale for marines means getting more accurate, that is if they weren't enlarging everything else they make too. :-(

I hate Primaris Marines too. The lore surrounding them is pretty bad and makes them out to be mary sues. I also find the models to be incredibly bland in both their rules and their looks. I love how sets like the blood angel tactical set, death company, and sanguinary guard sets look and how I can mix and match armor pieces and weapons between them and other marine sets to make a lot of unique and cool looking models for my army. If they made more customizable primaris sets with all the bling, a variety of armor marks, and gave them better rules and wargear options I would be alot more open to them. Also the inceptors, aggressors, and reavers look silly.

 Lance845 wrote:
Mark IV helmets are the best helmets.

This is true, but Mark X are quite similar. If I do any Salamanders Primaris, I'll give them MkIV helmets, because everything Salamanders gets MkIV helmets in my universe.

I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?

I can understand that GW needs to earn money, but I'm just not ok with the fluff. Also, I'm expecting that GW will eventually replace every marine kit with primaris, If I still played loyalist marines, I wouldn't like it if I'd have to replace my entire collection with primaris/

I don't really mind the models, they aren't that great (how are the MK X? where's MK IX?) but that's subjective, and there are plenty of other models gw produces that I don't like, so not a problem for me.

I don't have any problems with the models, although I do prefer the standard marines. What irks me is that GW is constantly doing this "marines but better" thing.

Their scale makes them look out of place in my army, so it's a no go for me. The basic Intercessors look nice, but since they don't match up aesthetically with my normal guys, and aren't compelling as units, I'll pass.

Not too familiar with the fluff, but from what I do know, I find it awkward.

NuMarines are terrible soldiers. They are simply not cost effective. That is my main concern.

Not to mention, they in and out of fluff very inflexible when it comes to tactics... their weapon "options" are just terrible, that just isn't the Imperial way...

I also don't like their current fluff.

I much prefer the more gothic marines of the past, and the vader esque masks the basic tactical marines have. I prefer the scale and size of the primaris but they are too sleek and clean...they feel very bland.

KTG17 wrote:
I really think their designs are a step backwards. Size wise, I get it. Marines are much taller than the average human and their models might as well reflect it, but the actual designs and troop types are terrible. And the skull face masks for the Reivers are really out of place, especially on guys like the Ultramarines. And the normal masks are lame too. Granted I grew up with the earliest editions of 40k, so I know we've had some silly designs in the past, but I really think the look and feel of Marines really peaked in 6th-7th.

I have heard rumors that eventually the old marines will be phased out, so maybe some of what we've had in the 'normal' marines will creep into the new ones, but honestly, I have zero interest in buying any, and its kept me from buying any of the starter sets, which I normally love to do.

* Maybe I should have posted this in the 40k forum...

IMHO primaris models are the ugliest ones ever released by GW, along with guilliman and the deathguard. So, no, you're not the only one that hates that stuff

I like both but I definitely would not replace my existing space marine army with Primaris. I don't really consider them a replacement for regular Astartes but a separate subfaction. Primaris just lack the options, kitbashibility, posing options and selection of ktis regular marines have. I don't even mind the somewhat weird proportions regular astartes have. I consider regular Astartes just plain better kits and I think that's why they continue to sell well.

Regardless I will collect Primaris because for what they are they are quite nice. A different breed of marines rather than a replacement.

But yes Inceptors are fugly and it's an example of GW taking an awesome concept and executing it horribly. And I'm not the biggest fan of Gravis Armor etiher. They make the marines look a little too... rotund.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

A different breed of marines rather than a replacement.

I agree, IMHO they're like grey knights compared to sisters of battle. Despite any new SoB release that army is still on the GW store, with its rules. I'd be ok with marines getting no new kits but staying in the store and the rules. After all there are tons of units and characters, other than an entire faction, which now have 25+ years and still part of the game. I don't really see why SM should be replaced by primaris.

trindaros wrote:
I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?

I can understand that GW needs to earn money, but I'm just not ok with the fluff. Also, I'm expecting that GW will eventually replace every marine kit with primaris, If I still played loyalist marines, I wouldn't like it if I'd have to replace my entire collection with primaris/

I don't really mind the models, they aren't that great (how are the MK X? where's MK IX?) but that's subjective, and there are plenty of other models gw produces that I don't like, so not a problem for me.

I felt the justification given in the Dark Angels codex is pretty strong to be honest.

They've just had a massive chaos assault directly on the rock that they are left reeling from. The chapter is somewhat broken until it has time to rebuild and regroup. Azrael call a summit of all the Unforgiven, and in his haste to gather the Legion successors suffer heavy losses, some implied to be lost entirely while crossing the rift.

This is the context of Guilliman swaggering up to the Rock with a MASSIVE army.

The Dark Angels are looking extra suspicious as they are having their secret gathering of the Legion. Azrael is stated consider opening fire on the fleet, fearing that Guilliman has in the wake of Luther's escape discovered the secrets of the chapter. But know they would all be destroyed if they try to fight. Even with the successors gathered, they cannot stand a chance to the main fleet of the Lord Commander of the Imperium, it would purely be suicide.

So he invites Guilliman in, praying that the secret is still safe.

To Azrael's gigantic relief, Guilliman knows nothing! He simply bring reinforcements. Of course Azrael is wary, but he wants Guilliman gone immediately. He agrees to take in the Primaris (instructing the Inner Circle to immediately begin screening, monitoring and indoctrinating them.

He bids the Lord Commander safe travels and rushes him out the door.

7th ed marines looked dumb. The masks made them look like they were constantly mouthbreathing and their proportions were hilarious. Primaris are better in pretty much all regards.

ERJAK wrote:
7th ed marines looked dumb. The masks made them look like they were constantly mouthbreathing and their proportions were hilarious. Primaris are better in pretty much all regards.

To be honest the Angry-Darth Vader helmet is my third favourite helmet (Behind the Corvus pattern one as the second and the MK2 cyclopean one ,This one, as my favourite one )

But I agree with the rest. What I don't understand is people complaining about the Primaris Helmet. Don't people loved the MKIV ones? They are the same.

My only problem with the primaris models is the lack of variety. Old kits have all sort of subtle differences, even between armours of the same mark, primaris are pretty much identical. I understand why this is from the fluff perspective, but it is still a bit boring. But I've been adding some flavour with parts from old kits, so in the end it is all good.

 Crimson wrote:
My only problem with the primaris models is the lack of variety. Old kits have all sort of subtle differences, even between armours of the same mark, primaris are pretty much identical. I understand why this is from the fluff perspective, but it is still a bit boring. But I've been adding some flavour with parts from old kits, so in the end it is all good.

This is the first wave of releases to be fair. I'd expect more variety both in sculpts and wargear as time goes on.

You are not alone in the Primaris Scale Creep Ultrasmurf Marines hate

The fluff is so badly done.

The models are gorgeous and are how Marines should look.

They should have just released the line as the new space marine models, with the same rules as the old, said "you can use your old models or build a new army with the new ones, it's up to you." Just like they did with plague marines.

Like the models, hate the fluff with a passion


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

trindaros wrote:
I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?

I can understand that GW needs to earn money, but I'm just not ok with the fluff. Also, I'm expecting that GW will eventually replace every marine kit with primaris, If I still played loyalist marines, I wouldn't like it if I'd have to replace my entire collection with primaris/

I don't really mind the models, they aren't that great (how are the MK X? where's MK IX?) but that's subjective, and there are plenty of other models gw produces that I don't like, so not a problem for me.

I felt the justification given in the Dark Angels codex is pretty strong to be honest.

They've just had a massive chaos assault directly on the rock that they are left reeling from. The chapter is somewhat broken until it has time to rebuild and regroup. Azrael call a summit of all the Unforgiven, and in his haste to gather the Legion successors suffer heavy losses, some implied to be lost entirely while crossing the rift.

This is the context of Guilliman swaggering up to the Rock with a MASSIVE army.

The Dark Angels are looking extra suspicious as they are having their secret gathering of the Legion. Azrael is stated consider opening fire on the fleet, fearing that Guilliman has in the wake of Luther's escape discovered the secrets of the chapter. But know they would all be destroyed if they try to fight. Even with the successors gathered, they cannot stand a chance to the main fleet of the Lord Commander of the Imperium, it would purely be suicide.

So he invites Guilliman in, praying that the secret is still safe.

To Azrael's gigantic relief, Guilliman knows nothing! He simply bring reinforcements. Of course Azrael is wary, but he wants Guilliman gone immediately. He agrees to take in the Primaris (instructing the Inner Circle to immediately begin screening, monitoring and indoctrinating them.

He bids the Lord Commander safe travels and rushes him out the door.

You mean the fluff where guilliman gives permission to the dark angels to keep the "wings" the sheer idiocy of that part of the fluff alone

Yes.

Out of the billions of people that exist at the same time as you, you're literally the only person that feels the way you do. Consider yourself special and important.

I like them. I ignore their background and enjoy playing them.

I hope their background comes to more interesting conflict. I don't want them to just happily jump in with the regular marines and just get along like nothing happened. Something big needs to come from this, something destructive that's going to bite Rowboat Gilligan in the ass.

As far as the models themselves, I think they look great. Again, like most, I'd love some more variety, especially when it comes to the helmets. Just one style is boring.

It's kind of weird everyone thinking the DA are not answerable to the IoM, and even weirder to think they would flip the bird to the head of the IoM, who happens to be one of the emperor's sons, and a brother to their primarch. Yes they asked permissions to keep the "Wings" in the face of a command from the very top of the IoM to reform their organization to be compliant with new mandates. I suppose it's part of the DA are secret traitors meme that is floating around, and why read the fluff when you can read the memes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As for primaris, the models are nice and I decided to give them a try for a local escalation league as a choice that isn't hyper competitive and now that they are not new anymore they are pretty rare on the table. I still think the fluff is utter crap, but I can pinch my nose and deal with it for the sake of cool new models. There are lots of clever design features that make them very easy to paint, for instance they don't have many recesses, almost every detail is raised, which makes painting and highlighting a breeze. GW's CAD game is on point, the redemptor was fun to put together and has a lot of cool details you don't see in older models.

I think the problem with the primaris marines is their delivery to 8th edition.

Wheb other codexew got a new unit it was to cover some fla2. 5th edition some hole after 4th editions specialised codexes. 6th introduced flyers and anti air etc.

Primaris does not cover a role other units do not do. Also, they don't fit in any transport. If these two points where filled, they would be good.

 Formosa wrote:

You mean the fluff where guilliman gives permission to the dark angels to keep the "wings" the sheer idiocy of that part of the fluff alone

What do you mean? It's a power play on Guilliman's part. By stating that he is giving them permission, when they never asked it or expect to need to, he is asserting his authority as Lord Commander. The subtext is 'I can break you if I need to, so stay in line'.

Whether he actually could is another matter, though right then and there with the DA in disarray and him with crusade strength army at his back he probably could crush them.

ERJAK wrote:
The masks made them look like they were constantly mouthbreathing

I agree, in fact all my marines, which are SW, don't have a single helmet

 Blackie wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The masks made them look like they were constantly mouthbreathing

I agree, in fact all my marines, which are SW, don't have a single helmet

except for the bikers right? cause you know..safety??

The points for weapons being separate in the back of the codex has basically meant that my gaming group is totally fine with taking primaris squads and equipping them like traditional tactical, assault, devestator, etc., squads. Magnetizing them is definitely happening. We're also cool with not following the transport rules that prevent Primaris units from getting in drop pods or land raiders or whatever.

If anything I hate the pre-primaris marines more from a model perspective. Their legs are just too short so their proportions are all wrong. When you see them next to a Cadian how short they are in general is just silly.

Fictional introduction of Primaris was weak though. I like the idea of a new founding and a crusade and all that, but I felt it was a bit too out of nowhere. Once they are present though, they just function as marines. Check out the Dark Imperium or Crusade stories and they' just do marine things.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
How compatible are the larger Primaris Marines with parts from other Kits, like helmets, shoulder pads etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Mark IV helmets are the best helmets.

I'm a Raven Guard player, so I have to disagree and propose the Mark V beaky helmets.

Beakie is mkVI, heresy pattern is mkV

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The masks made them look like they were constantly mouthbreathing

I agree, in fact all my marines, which are SW, don't have a single helmet

except for the bikers right? cause you know..safety??

Ehm....no. I kitted my WG bikers with the TWC heads

 Chamberlain wrote:
The points for weapons being separate in the back of the codex has basically meant that my gaming group is totally fine with taking primaris squads and equipping them like traditional tactical, assault, devestator, etc., squads. Magnetizing them is definitely happening. We're also cool with not following the transport rules that prevent Primaris units from getting in drop pods or land raiders or whatever.

If anything I hate the pre-primaris marines more from a model perspective. Their legs are just too short so their proportions are all wrong. When you see them next to a Cadian how short they are in general is just silly.

Fictional introduction of Primaris was weak though. I like the idea of a new founding and a crusade and all that, but I felt it was a bit too out of nowhere. Once they are present though, they just function as marines. Check out the Dark Imperium or Crusade stories and they' just do marine things.

I think over time the primaris marines will be fluffed out in a way that is acceptable. right now we have 2 or 3 novels that touch on them and 3 codex entries. thats not a lot of data out there compared to how much is out there for standard marines

Personally, I hate the models and the ridiculous knots they’be tied the background in to fit them into it. But I’ve stockpiled enough old Marine kits to keep me happy, so I’m just going to sort of ignore them as best as possible.

I don't mind the new models, but I detest the new lore. I'm willing to give GW more time to fix things, but its not looking good. They have essentially written themselves into a corner. The "Fix it all Cawl" excuse has already run its course. Not only does Cawl surpass the Emperor's ability to create super soldiers but every innovation going forward will essentially be "Cawl did it". To make matters worse, GW is forcing every chapter to suffer catastrophic losses so that they are forced to take in primaris. The new Dark Angel fluff is basically Baal 2.0. Blood Angels wiped out nearly to the man, Guilliman swoops in & reinforces them with primaris. Dark Angels wiped out, Guilliman swoops in & reinforces them with primaris. The Dark Angels would never accept outsiders with open arms due to their nature. The icing on the cake is how 40k is being turned into drama. No longer about epic scale conflict, but rather a conflict between personalities. Herohammer if you will. Just wait until more primarchs enter center stage. Its going to be all about the primarchs & essentially 30k 2.0.

Go ahead & laugh but I honestly think if this type of nonsense continues we are going to see the Warhammer 40k community divide into two separate camps. Pre-Gathering Storm & post Gathering Storm. Pre-Gathering storm will still advance the plot, but in an actual sensible lore appropriate ways. New technologies introduced through discovery of lost STC facilities/Forgeworlds. Primaris wouldn't exist. Would likely be replaced with Thunderwarriors etc.

Yep, put me in with "the models are fine, the lore is garbage".

 Lum wrote:
I started typing a snarky respond here, mostly aimed at "Am I the only one that..." when I realized that would really not add anything to this discussion (also I am listening to christmas songs and just extremly relaxed, so no interest in souring my mood).

Oh well thank you for sparing us.

I am blissfully ignorant of the lore.

The miniatures look fine. The lore makes me want to vomit.

Martel732 wrote:
I am blissfully ignorant of the lore.

Do what I do, make your own up, justify the units you want, ignore the ones you don't field.

leopard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I am blissfully ignorant of the lore.

Do what I do, make your own up, justify the units you want, ignore the ones you don't field.

I also decided that since they give weapon and model costs separately, I'd make up my own datasheets as well:

 Chamberlain wrote:

If anything I hate the pre-primaris marines more from a model perspective. Their legs are just too short so their proportions are all wrong. When you see them next to a Cadian how short they are in general is just silly.

You understand that makes the Cadians the problem, right? Not SMs.

Put a normal SM next to literally any other normal human model (2nd ed. IG, DKOK, WMH Winter Guard etc.) and you'll notice which is out of scale.

Ruin wrote:

Put a normal SM next to literally any other normal human model (2nd ed. IG, DKOK, WMH Winter Guard etc.) and you'll notice which is out of scale.

Nope. While Cadians have awkward proportions, they're not taller than GW's newer human kits or FWs humans.

At first i hated the knee pad thing they got but its growing on knee.



but i really love the scale and like how they look next to the newer marine kits (death guard and tsons)

they really need to upgrade normal marine kits.

Look at the new BA and DA... a lot of their staple units are original Marine. The hatred is unfounded and based solely upon suspicion.

 Primark G wrote:
Look at the new BA and DA... a lot of their staple units are original Marine. The hatred is unfounded and based solely upon suspicion.

it's also your typical "new unit over reaction" among space marine players. we saw it with centurions too in a little while once the fluff has been fleshed out, and we see how this new stuff fits in with the existing stuff people'll chill out and accept them.

I like the new marines. They look great. The fluff is fine with me as well, they’re a spark of hope in a galaxy falling apart.

I don’t like how they can’t ride in old marine vehicles though. That is stupid.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Look at the new BA and DA... a lot of their staple units are original Marine. The hatred is unfounded and based solely upon suspicion.

it's also your typical "new unit over reaction" among space marine players. we saw it with centurions too in a little while once the fluff has been fleshed out, and we see how this new stuff fits in with the existing stuff people'll chill out and accept them.

Centurions still do not appear in my army, and they're still dumb.

Devcents are so over costed now - not worth it any more imo.

In regards to only one option for a transport I feel that in general the development team was overly cautious with Primaris Marines. I’m sure they knew there’d be push back so reasons...

 Primark G wrote:
Devcents are so over costed now - not worth it any more imo.

No joke, a Centurion unarmed or a Dreadnought unarmed. Crazy.

(Even if they were much cheaper, I still wouldn't be taking them though.)

I neither hate them nor have any use for them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Look at the new BA and DA... a lot of their staple units are original Marine. The hatred is unfounded and based solely upon suspicion.

it's also your typical "new unit over reaction" among space marine players. we saw it with centurions too in a little while once the fluff has been fleshed out, and we see how this new stuff fits in with the existing stuff people'll chill out and accept them.

Centurions still do not appear in my army, and they're still dumb.

sure, there are some players that basicly refuse to use any post 3rd edition units. Someone out there proably refuses to use those new frangled terminators or non beakie armor. but by and large centurions have become ACCEPTED now compared to the massive "OMG! THEY SUCK" initial reaction at the dawn of 6th ed.

I hate the lore for them, but the models seem okay. If I didn't already have around 400 marines already, I'd likely pick up some Aggressors, Reivers and Inceptors. Though I think I'd put the Reiver masks on the Inceptors.

I think making the Centurion models was a mistake, but the physical models look better if you don't put all the armor sheathing on them.

 Primark G wrote:
Devcents are so over costed now - not worth it any more imo.

In regards to only one option for a transport I feel that in general the development team was overly cautious with Primaris Marines. I’m sure they knew there’d be push back so reasons...

That's literally my only issue with the whole Primaris thing, the transports. Let me put them in a Land Raider or Stormraven! And if they don't fit in a Rhino, at give us a low end transport for them too. Not just real money price, something lower end points wise for shuttling them.

As a Dark Angels player of over 20 years I am actually liking the new Primaris line. They look fantastic and I am enjoying the build of my DA multi-part Hellblasters at the moment. The Primaris have done well enough on the tabletop as part of a integrated force - I think that they need regular support such as Predators etc just like normal Space Marines. I like the concept of Intercessors being focused on their personal weapons and not simply the one heavy weapon in the squad. Since 3rd Ed came out, Tacticals have just been a way to get a Heavy Weapon - that's fine for Guard or real-world infantry but not for Space Marines.

Their fluff is a little Deus ex Machina, but it works for me since the 40K universe has plenty of that. I think that the game needed a little jolt to the background and the Primaris have given us that without wiping it out. Reading through the Dark Angels Codex, the Primaris are working hard to earn the trust of the Chapter leadership. Time has passed (the Codex refers to decades), and the new arrivals are settling in.

The fluff question will be whether or not new intitiates will follow the Primaris route or the old ways. I wouldn't miss old-school Tactical squads, but I would miss Terminators, Bikes, Predators, Landspeeders etc.

Having said all that, I respect and understand the position of those who do not like the look and feel of the new line. I hope that GW can maintain both lines over time.

Cheers,

Models: hate the inceptors (they look so akward) really like the rest of the line. I'm not the greatest painter and they are sooo much easier to paint well than stock marines.

The vehicles are ugly as sin. The dread needs to be taller and the repulsor is a mess.

Lore: As everyone else has said it is terrible.

Game play: Hellblasters yes. Price reductions for the other infantry means they might actually see a place in my army but their lack of diversity really bothers me. The vehicles are terrible.

General feel: I feel like I'm being set-up for full on replacement. I wish they would have come out with their own codex (like another chapter, ie spacewolves) That way they could be integrated into existing armies without feeling like they were replacing my army. Would make more sense from a fluff perspective (here comes Gman with his new toys) instead of all your guys will need this extra booster shot so they can grow another set of organs and another foot of height.

tl;dr: Inceptors and vehicles are ugly. Points reduction will help them on the table. Wish they were their own codex. Much easier to paint.

I hate everything about Primaris models, especially the lore.

The horribly contrived lore makes me hate the whole idea of Primaris.

The Primaris kit’s lack of options is their biggest drawback aesthetically speaking. If you look at the SM Tac Squad kit you have several different armor variations. They are also poseable at the waist. This keeps them from looking like the same model repeated over and over. The primaris kit has like 5(?) different poses and the exact same armor for every model. It makes them look unrealistic IMO. They are boring. Even when painted as different chapters they still look like the exact same marines. They have no character.

For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

 Primark G wrote:
For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

Well its not like the players are some sort of hive mind

some people like it
some people cling onto the past

I think the fluff is actually kind of cool knowing that Cawl started to manufacture them back during the period just prior to the heresy... then he forgot about them and they kept popping out going into stasis - LOL! Now there are even pure Primaris Chapters and that is pretty darn cool.

Personally, I was hoping things got a lot grimmer - the opening of the Eye was a step in the right direction, but the return of Roboute with a new crusade to replenish the marines wasn’t. I would have gone for the Golden Throne floundering, enemies at the doorstep of Terra and the marines unable to help as they’re too overwhelmed trying to put out the fires of Xeno invasions and Chaos incursions across the galaxy.

And its all about to get eaten by Tyranids, or enslaved by Necrons. Nom Nom.

Well as a non marine player I think the primaris rules are what regular marines should always have been.

With a new edition they missed the mark. They could have made all marines 2 wounds and better ala Primaris.

And then new unit types could have been introduced by Cawl or the Primarch, and new models are just new models...just bigger.

The old WraithGuard metal models are smaller than the plastics....but no one complained.

Look at old terminators vs new.....they grew!!

They should have just said we are making the newer marines a bit larger. I'm sure the RT marine models on average were smaller than a lot of the current range. Its not that big a deal.


Missed opportunity.

 Primark G wrote:
For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

I'm one of those that wanted the lore to advance, I don't even mind the direction they took, I will not stand sloppy writing however, if they wan to sell me a story then it must be good enough for me to buy, sadly they still haven't caught my attention with the new fluff, it's universally bad at the moment, that being said I will be getting the new dark angels novel as a last ditch attempt for me to get invested in the new lore.

I personally wish they just updated the marine model line and rules to be more in line with their stature in the lore and let everyone with marinelets deal with it. I like the models, I like the stats, but I'm not a fan of the fluff or the dearth of options. Like many others here.

 Formosa wrote:
I'm one of those that wanted the lore to advance, I don't even mind the direction they took, I will not stand sloppy writing however, if they wan to sell me a story then it must be good enough for me to buy, sadly they still haven't caught my attention with the new fluff, it's universally bad at the moment, that being said I will be getting the new dark angels novel as a last ditch attempt for me to get invested in the new lore.

I borrowed the Gathering Storm books and found the game book presentation of fiction in there to be pretty poor. It's like there was no perspective from which the story was told. It was like the short blurbs of exposition in a sidebar or text box was stretched over page after page.

Dark Imperium was mediocre. There's actually a story arc going on there and a character arc for a few characters. It's competent but not wonderful. A little too obvious in the whole marketing the new units kind of a thing. Glad I borrowed it and didn't buy it.

Devastation of Baal was okay, but weak in terms of general concept. This whole mass casualties for marine chapters to force adoption of Primaris is a bit tired already and I think they're just getting started with that. Again, glad I borrowed it.

I'm only a little ways into Ghost Warrior by Gav Thorpe. He has an odd style that I like. It definitely seems like his other novels and less like a "buy the new models!" type book.

The Codex fiction seems to be about the same as always. They're game books and it's the same stuff but with a bit of updating for the advanced timeline.

I hate them as well.

Space marines were a Mary-sue army to begin with, now they're more powerful.

Except they fall short of that by a wide margin. If you read the novels with primaris marines in them, then there is nothing written about them that is handled any differently than any other marine story. Battle scenes with primaris marines, regular marines, marines during the heresy. They all get described the same. There's not some super special layer of competence ascribed to the primaris marines.

The novella Crusade (set during the Indomitus Crusade) is a good example of this. The Ultramarine primaris in there take horrific casualties. And there's not really any scene at all that paints them as being able to do something that a previous marine would be incapable of doing.

I think people have an idea of what the primaris marines are like in the story based on their own feelings about them and don't really know how they are handled in the stories so far.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Also given that Ultramarine Chaplains have full on skull faced helmets.. I'm not sure what the issue with the masks are.

It makes the Chaplain look less unique.

I for one cannot stand primaris marines. I just hate the whole fluff of them. It makes regular space marines seem insignificant, which they most definitely aren't.
And those knee guards.... YUCK

Man I hated when the Emperor did made us, Thunder Warriors, obsolete with this introduction of "Adeptus Astartes"

It was like "WTF man?! We conquered earth for you!". He said that we were his finnest work all the time! And now look at those Space Marines with their fine weapons and armours and vehicles.

They are a bunch of mary sue's, like... why don't they degrade with time? Why aren't they as violent and unstable as us? WTF GW, you bunch of money-grav d***-heads.

 Primark G wrote:
For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

Well, how is this the players fault?

 Chamberlain wrote:
Except they fall short of that by a wide margin. If you read the novels with primaris marines in them, then there is nothing written about them that is handled any differently than any other marine story. Battle scenes with primaris marines, regular marines, marines during the heresy. They all get described the same. There's not some super special layer of competence ascribed to the primaris marines.

The novella Crusade (set during the Indomitus Crusade) is a good example of this. The Ultramarine primaris in there take horrific casualties. And there's not really any scene at all that paints them as being able to do something that a previous marine would be incapable of doing.

I think people have an idea of what the primaris marines are like in the story based on their own feelings about them and don't really know how they are handled in the stories so far.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that the threat level has increased. so well things may not apper much differant, the fact that Primaris Marines are barely holding the line could be reasonably argued as proof of how much they're needed

Davor wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

Well, how is this the players fault?

Not players specifically, but people. There's so much baggage to the lore of the setting, honestly anything they did a load of people would have hated

Stux wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
For years players said they want the lore to advance... then they finally got it and now there are still complaints. It is actually not that bad at all.

Well, how is this the players fault?

Not players specifically, but people. There's so much baggage to the lore of the setting, honestly anything they did a load of people would have hated

It's kinda like the new star wars movies, where anything differant people hated because they had decades to build up their own expectations.

I'm not saying that the Primaris Marines are the Jar Jar Binks of 40K, but they're certainly "The Last Jedi" if you know what I mean

I don't mind most of the models - although I agree with those that think Reivers look stupid.

And, as an aside, they make no sense fluffwise. Who are they scaring? Chaos don't care about skull masks. Tyranids, Orks, anything Eldar that isn't a Guardian and Necrons don't care either. So you are at saying boo to Guard and Tau - who are probably intimidated by the 8-9 feet tall posthumans anyway (and even then would a Catachan really care?)

I think they have missed an opportunity to be more grimdark. I guess we have to wait and see whether there will be more campaign books - but as many speculated, you would have thought the "Old Imperium" would have been at least a bit resistance to RG changing everything.

Tyel wrote:
I don't mind most of the models - although I agree with those that think Reivers look stupid.

And, as an aside, they make no sense fluffwise. Who are they scaring? Chaos don't care about skull masks. Tyranids, Orks, anything Eldar that isn't a Guardian and Necrons don't care either. So you are at saying boo to Guard and Tau - who are probably intimidated by the 8-9 feet tall posthumans anyway (and even then would a Catachan really care?)

I think they have missed an opportunity to be more grimdark. I guess we have to wait and see whether there will be more campaign books - but as many speculated, you would have thought the "Old Imperium" would have been at least a bit resistance to RG changing everything.

the reiver masks aren't what is scary about them. Anymore then the howling banshee's mask is whats scary about them. the fluff describes their weapons and helmets augmenting sounds. so there is more to reivers then JUST fancy masks everything about them is designed for Psyk warfare.

I'm a bit on the fence about them. Models look okay, but from what I've heard (not read) of the fluff.. meh.

I did buy a few of the characters Captain, Librarian and Chaplain, plus the Inteceptor Sgt (?) to add to the contents of Dark Imperium, but they won't be joining my Dark Angel army. I'll resurrect my old custom chapter for them.

I really have to start getting some games in... I may change my mind after playing them a bit.

Zillian wrote:
I'm a bit on the fence about them. Models look okay, but from what I've heard (not read) of the fluff.. meh.

I did buy a few of the characters Captain, Librarian and Chaplain, plus the Inteceptor Sgt (?) to add to the contents of Dark Imperium, but they won't be joining my Dark Angel army. I'll resurrect my old custom chapter for them.

I really have to start getting some games in... I may change my mind after playing them a bit.

my over all impression of Primaris Marines from a rules stand point is they're alright but not OMG so much better. had they been a thing in 6/7th editions though they woulda been AWESOME, sadly 8th edition has reduced the effectiveness of it somewhat

So I went out on a limb. Bit of a detractor from the whole Primaris nonesense.

I got GW vouchers for Crimbo and got the DA codex (only loyalist chapter I would consider as CSM player - mwhahaha, wink wink), box of DA Intercessors, Primaris Chaplain and Lietenant Zakariah.

I have to say, I am impressed. I like them.

BrianDavion wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I don't mind most of the models - although I agree with those that think Reivers look stupid.

And, as an aside, they make no sense fluffwise. Who are they scaring? Chaos don't care about skull masks. Tyranids, Orks, anything Eldar that isn't a Guardian and Necrons don't care either. So you are at saying boo to Guard and Tau - who are probably intimidated by the 8-9 feet tall posthumans anyway (and even then would a Catachan really care?)

I think they have missed an opportunity to be more grimdark. I guess we have to wait and see whether there will be more campaign books - but as many speculated, you would have thought the "Old Imperium" would have been at least a bit resistance to RG changing everything.

the reiver masks aren't what is scary about them. Anymore then the howling banshee's mask is whats scary about them. the fluff describes their weapons and helmets augmenting sounds. so there is more to reivers then JUST fancy masks everything about them is designed for Psyk warfare.

You die laughing at their stupid faces?

Honestly for me and the Reivers, I think it's just rule of cool. It's something different that makes them stand out, and reinforces the guerilla nature of the unit.

It might not make total sense, but since when have design decisions in this game been about making sense?

Why would you arm a unit with swords as their primary armament for what is essentially a pitched battle, when you also have access to automatic firearms?

Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.

That's pretty subjective though. To me they look more stylised and less cartooney than a lot of Chaplain sculpts.

Stux wrote:
Honestly for me and the Reivers, I think it's just rule of cool. It's something different that makes them stand out, and reinforces the guerilla nature of the unit.

It might not make total sense, but since when have design decisions in this game been about making sense?

Why would you arm a unit with swords as their primary armament for what is essentially a pitched battle, when you also have access to automatic firearms?

Because a single game of 40k is simply a formation performing an assault order in Epic Armageddon.

There, I made sense of the swords.

And each game of Epic Armageddon is a horsey taking Kamchatka in a game of Risk

Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.

That's pretty subjective though. To me they look more stylised and less cartooney than a lot of Chaplain sculpts.

Oh sure, certainly that part of it is subjective. If you like em, great. Or maybe just a better pain't job can help them. The different levels of stylization much less so. Mk 7 helmets are *much* further from "skull" than Chaplains or Reivers.

I'll still say it's an aesthetic no-go for me.

By and large, I really like them.

Not played a game with them, but I'm not massively fussed about gameplay in general.

Aesthetically, they look great. Given how the head and shoulders are compatible with previous marks, it leaves room for plenty of customisation. Of course, I won't be picking any up soon, due to how they will be out of scale in my UM army, but when I eventually start a custom Chapter, I'll be going heavily Primaris-focused.

The lore, whilst it has it's problems, isn't as bad to me as many people say.
The Imperium's full of hidden data, labyrinthine bureaucracy, and just simple sluggishness. I think I would have preferred if Cawl hadn't been behind ALL of it, or even he was a relatively junior Techpriest who only lately discovered a secret project in the Terran mountains, and is having to skip testing and go straight into mass production, with no idea if the Primaris are safe or not.
But still, I don't have an issue with Guilliman coming along with his "new toys" - the Emperor did it, armour marks have been invented across the timeline, and wargear certain improves (First and Only indicates that the finding of an STC fragment caused a significant number of Astartes Chapters to replace their combat knives for these new ones they discovered).

As far as getting other Chapters to take Primaris in, I think it's just GW's method of telling us "no matter what Chapter you play, Primaris CAN absolutely be there". I think you'd be delusional to think that none of the Big Four (UM, DA, BA, SW) wouldn't have Primaris. As far as the high acceptance goes - don't forget, the galaxy was LITERALLY CUT IN HALF. That's a pretty major event to happen, and that alone should encourage many Chapters to adopt reinforcements. When that's being headed up by a ressurrected Primarch, who is the direct sire of over 60% of existing Chapters: I think it's perfect logical that a 95% acceptance rate is the number given.

As for the Dark Angels? To say they'd deny reinforcement from pre-Heresy brethren, who can be integrated just like any other Battle Brother (Fallen knowledge only factors into the Deathwing and Ravenwing and command staff), and their existing leaders can be augmented into being Primaris, there's plenty of room for them to have Primaris. To say that "they're so secretive they'd never do that" is flanderisation or their character. They're not stupid.

The new Dark Angels Codex does very good in introducing Primaris in the chapter in a way that doesn't feells disruptive.

Of course, as you said, for people that only knows the 4chan version of Dark Angels, it would be absurd for them to accept Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.

Eh, there's real life forces that do something similar:

trindaros wrote:
I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?

I kind of like how they handled it for Dark Angels. They've been accepted to the rank and file - who know nothing of the secrets of the chapter. They even demoted their new character to only be a lieutenant and the primaris company master doesn't get the DeathWatch keyword because no primaris has been allowed to know about the Fallen. It's been a 100 years since the ultima founding and there are still no primaris deathwatch. That sounds pretty much like the Dark Angels.

I'm curious how they'll handle it for Space Wolves. The wolves won't mind primaris but successor chapters have been noted and that's a huge change for them.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

trindaros wrote:
I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?

I kind of like how they handled it for Dark Angels. They've been accepted to the rank and file - who know nothing of the secrets of the chapter. They even demoted their new character to only be a lieutenant and the primaris company master doesn't get the DeathWatch keyword because no primaris has been allowed to know about the Fallen. It's been a 100 years since the ultima founding and there are still no primaris deathwatch. That sounds pretty much like the Dark Angels.

I'm curious how they'll handle it for Space Wolves. The wolves won't mind primaris but successor chapters have been noted and that's a huge change for them.

sucessor chapters are something I see them welcoming offically and thinking "ok pratically speaking this is good" but at the same time, it'll be a challange to deal with them.chapters with long eistablished histories of sucessors (the Ultramarines and Imperial fists) have long since made peace with their sucessors being differant. I suspect the Space Wolves will need to adapt to that

 Stormonu wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.

Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.

Eh, there's real life forces that do something similar:

I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?

Skull looking hockey masks are a thing.

I find it utterly hilarious that the Reivers are the thing that make people complain about the skulls... Have you not seen any 40K models before?

 Crimson wrote:
I find it utterly hilarious that the Reivers are the thing that make people jomplain about the skulls... Have you not seen any 40K models before?

Yes 40K is full of skulls. The Eversor Assassin looks great, as does the Culexus. I like most Chaplains. I like stylized skulls on many Khorne models, and I like the fact that the Khorne symbol itself is a heavily stylized skull. I don't have a problem with many of the skulls in 40K. If the Storm Raven was actually just a giant floating skull with bolters for teeth, that could be a really awesome model. Simply being a skull in 40K isn't my issue.

A: Yes Space Marines themselves, even plain vanilla ones, have skulls on their armor. But traditionally the aesthetic emphasis is generally on the equipment, less so the decoration. Often the skulls are optional, not all breastplates have skulls on them, and the crux terminatus with a skull is optional for veterans in power armor. It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.


At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.

But it's not for the Reivers?

Is this just a case of "it's a new unit therefore their "traditional attire" isn't important?

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.

I think a lot of the new stuff GW does is aesthetically different, really. If you compare their Nurgle range especially to previous ones, there's certainly MORE going on on the model. I think a big reason why the Reivers have a different one is to differentiate them from the Chaplain skull masks.

At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.

Very true. Aesthetics is subjective.

 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?

Oh my friend, let me tell you about the 14th century, which is inspiration for roughly half of all the imperial stuff you see. You get a warrior caste, you get costumed armor. They go hand in hand.

I like the Reiver masks, I think it is cool that they try to differentiate the units a bit more than old 'tactical marine with different gear' thing. But if someone doesn't like the skull masks it is easy enough to use alternative heads. The Hellblaster kit comes with plenty of unskully gas mask heads which would probably work well.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.

But it's not for the Reivers?

Is this just a case of "it's a new unit therefore their "traditional attire" isn't important?

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.

I think a lot of the new stuff GW does is aesthetically different, really. If you compare their Nurgle range especially to previous ones, there's certainly MORE going on on the model. I think a big reason why the Reivers have a different one is to differentiate them from the Chaplain skull masks.

At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.

Very true. Aesthetics is subjective.

Vanilla Marines are medieval knights. Most of their helmets are inspired from historical examples, including the Mk X models. Your claim that there is no precedent for stylized armor is directly against human history - especially when there is a warrior caste that is more than willing to show off:

I'm still waiting for the face helmets:




Or anything Milanese - those dudes had fun:


Death Mask because I'm starting a google black hole looking for the damn 14th century bird armor that was so awesome:


I'd stick to arguing that you personally don't like the helmets - human military nature/history is not on your side in this.

Im afraid you totally missed what I'm saying. I get that the marine helmets are based off of historical design. That's not my point. My point is that the decorated designs are traditionally not used for "vanilla" marine units. The shapes of decoration are sort of there, but more guised under functionality. The way the Terminator helm is based off an animal's head, like a rhino or a lion or a big dog. But it's familiar without being overt. The more decorated stuff has been reserved for charcters.

So try again with the basic marine line to find overt costuming for whole units. I think you'll just come up with roman stuff, and when you do it will be optional baubles to add on to the models, ie, not part of the functional kit.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Im afraid you totally missed what I'm saying. I get that the marine helmets are based off of historical design. That's not my point. My point is that the decorated designs are traditionally not used for "vanilla" marine units. The shapes of decoration are sort of there, but more guised under functionality. The way the Terminator helm is based off an animal's head, like a rhino or a lion or a big dog. But it's familiar without being overt. The more decorated stuff has been reserved for charcters.

So try again with the basic marine line to find overt costuming for whole units. I think you'll just come up with roman stuff, and when you do it will be optional baubles to add on to the models, ie, not part of the functional kit.

I get what you are saying, subtle references, you know things like

the Subtle like the helmets of the ultramarines:


or subtle like the way GW handles the space wolves:


or maybe niples on power armor subtle:


Let's face it there is so much goofy gak in the GW catalog (let alone just in the space marines section) that the Riever helmet isn't even in the top ten. It's a bit marmite like, you'll love it or hate it, but hardly seems worthy of two pages of back and forth. Which is made even more pointless by the fact almost no one is running Rievers, and even if they were good enough to be mandatory, you could drop a few bucks, buy some tactical sergeant heads, and run them bare faced. The the heads are the same size between vanilla marines and primaris, so you could even run them as beakies if that is what turns your crank.

You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.

you don't get much more vanilla then the bloody Ultramarines.

 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?

Well done, in my opinion. Those are veteran Peruvian special force officers (note the one on the right is holding a sabre).

If you want hockey masks, that would be the Taiwan special forces



Overall, I think you're just bantering in "No true Scotsman" country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then, of course there are these guys and their skull-faced helmets.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.

You mean the MK I vanilla marines with the Horse Hair ponytail?

The MKII and that giant grill in front?

The MKV covered in big metal studs?

The MKVI. I mean, it's a giant freakin' break!

The MK VIII with the ultimate popped collar?

On top of that, they stick paper to their armor with wax seals, slap skulls in random places and even have reliquary hanging from their waist in several models.

The Imperium is constantly decking its Angels of Death with weird crap. You'll have to live with it.

Try not to stare directly at the grey knights.

Sigh. This is what I get for getting into a discussion about aesthetic nuance on Dakka. I think you're all just poking the bear at this point, but this is pretty easy so I'll hit it up anyways for fun.

BrianDavion wrote:


you don't get much more vanilla then the bloody Ultramarines.

Special model for chapter specific non-line trooper. Boom! Outside of challenge. Moving on.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?

Well done, in my opinion. Those are veteran Peruvian special force officers (note the one on the right is holding a sabre).

If you want hockey masks, that would be the Taiwan special forces



Overall, I think you're just bantering in "No true Scotsman" country.

Peruvian Officers you say? Non-standard kit and it's just paint besides. = Chaplain with war-paint or whatever. Boom!

Those hockey masks don't have skulls sculpted onto them, and are otherwise not decorative. Disregarded!

 Stormonu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then, of course there are these guys and their skull-faced helmets.

Stylization is well beyond literal skull. Also, not part of the Space Marine line! Disregarded!

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.

You mean the MK I vanilla marines with the Horse Hair ponytail? - Not a common kit for vanilla marines, just a single old model

The MKII and that giant grill in front? - same non-standard as above, you're buying specialty models as an aesthetic and "historical" choice

The MKV covered in big metal studs? - same

The MKVI. I mean, it's a giant freakin' break! - definitely not a skull, for all intents and purposes possibly angled to better deflect incoming fire, overall implementation is simple and not decorative

The MK VIII with the ultimate popped collar? - standard kit? Don't think so, I think one of those comes in a ten man squad, and is optional. Also implementation is not decorative, but supposedly functional.

On top of that, they stick paper to their armor with wax seals, slap skulls in random places and even have reliquary hanging from their waist in several models. - I already mentioned often optional baubles, if you can't see the difference that's on you

The Imperium is constantly decking its Angels of Death with weird crap. You'll have to live with it. - it tends to be an optional aesthetic on top of simpler design

Try not to stare directly at the grey knights. - not a vanilla marine, duh.

So Vanilla like this then:



I mean that's obviously not a stylized skull mask right? It's not like we've been playing for five editions with marines with skull masks, because I just can't see the resemblance at all between that and this:

 Grimgold wrote:
So Vanilla like this then:

Spoiler:

I mean that's obviously not a stylized skull mask right? It's not like we've been playing for five editions with marines with skull masks, because I just can't see the resemblance at all between that and this:

Spoiler:

You're late to the party.

Insectum7 wrote:
Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.
. . .
The different levels of stylization much less so. Mk 7 helmets are *much* further from "skull" than Chaplains or Reivers.

As in, yes, the Mk7 helm is a stylized skull. But it's a *heavily* stylized skull, with simple forms and crude functionality. The level of stylization on the Reivers is much less so. There's a nose cavity, cheekbones, and a proportional mouth with actual teeth on it. Truly you can see there's a distinction, no? If there were a line graph with "actual skull" at 0, and "SW Stormtrooper helm" at 10, the Mk7 would sit comfortably at 9 or 10, imo. The Reiver face mask would sit around a 3. Feel free to disagree with the precise numbers there, but there's a clear difference between the two.

I actually like the intercessor models. I also agree that I don't see Ultra Marines using a terror unit like Rievers. That feels very wrong. Agressors and inceptors are just bad models.

What I hate is what they have done with the lore to justify these new models. It is really awful. Like bad, bad, bad.

I will never play them. And in my personal cannon, Silver Skulls never receive Primaris and are suspicious of the rumors of G man's return and what he is doing. They are apart of the Imperium Nihilus afterall.

I like them just fine, and I hope their scale becomes the new standard.

Bowlegged squatter Marines need to go.

With the exception of some of the "easy to build" or starter set type models, aren't the heads of the kits separate? Can't you just make them how you like them?

I'm doing all MK3 helmets because they're my favorite.

 Chamberlain wrote:
With the exception of some of the "easy to build" or starter set type models, aren't the heads of the kits separate? Can't you just make them how you like them?

Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

And yeah, even the Easy-to-Build ones are an easy head swap. People are just going to gripe about change.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Bowlegged squatter Marines need to go.

That was fast.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Bowlegged squatter Marines need to go.

That was fast.

Zing!

If you don’t like the skull helms just use other ones instead problem solved.

 SickSix wrote:
I actually like the intercessor models. I also agree that I don't see Ultra Marines using a terror unit like Rievers. That feels very wrong. Agressors and inceptors are just bad models.

What I hate is what they have done with the lore to justify these new models. It is really awful. Like bad, bad, bad.

I will never play them. And in my personal cannon, Silver Skulls never receive Primaris and are suspicious of the rumors of G man's return and what he is doing. They are apart of the Imperium Nihilus afterall.

whats wrong about the ultramarines using terror units? Remember the Ultramarines schitick is GENERALISTS. no they're not gonna go "night lords" on a planet. but targeted precise use of terror to sow confusion in an enemies lines? valid tactic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
[That was fast.

Incorrect. I criticize the mold of OldMarines. It's really, really out of date. And terribly scaled.

What you want on your table, IDGAF. Put pony heads on them for all I care. I'm just happy to see the Primaris model looks reasonably well-constructed.

I actually really love all the Primaris stuff (Reivers least of all) as they are excellent models with awesome proportions. I just have a hard time reconciling their fluff into the lore as GW has made them. I think they could have had a better intro than as the Deux ex Machina to keep the status quo of Marines in the fluff (and sales).

I mean, the look of Aggressors is exactly what the bodies of the Centurions should have been, even if just for standard Astartes.

I like all the new Primaris things, I didn't like the Inceptors on the box but when I got them and made some changes to them I really dig them now.

No. I am ignoring them.

I like the new models, but for me it's more on the stories, not all space marines are the same size. You have the average SM then his brother that's the foot taller. If I wasn't using them as a unit I'd certainly use the models in normal squads if they fit into the build