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Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/26 22:54:49


Post by: auticus


So nurgle is finally getting his due with his own book up next per Warhammer Community. Some sweet new models. The new great unclean ones all look very nice and on par in size it appears with the forgeworld GUO. The drone riding mortals also look very nice.

Just in time for Azyr Empires campaign for my group this spring!

Will you be embracing or facing the new rot at all in the mortal realms?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/26 23:16:11


Post by: thekingofkings


 auticus wrote:
So nurgle is finally getting his due with his own book up next per Warhammer Community. Some sweet new models. The new great unclean ones all look very nice and on par in size it appears with the forgeworld GUO. The drone riding mortals also look very nice.

Just in time for Azyr Empires campaign for my group this spring!

Will you be embracing or facing the new rot at all in the mortal realms?


not dissapointed with more nurgle, but come on, lets get some slaanesh in here.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/26 23:21:19


Post by: amazingturtles


Nurgle stuff is always good for fun painting times. i hope hounds of nurgle get some love.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/26 23:25:17


Post by: BlackLobster


This could be what brings me back to AoS.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 00:18:09


Post by: Wayniac


Super excited. I already have death guard in 40k. And some daemons too. I have really thought about doing a nurgle themed Army probably a mix of Mortals and demons and this might be the catalyst. Also I really enjoy painting nurgle models because I can be messy and the effect still looks good so it is good for someone like me who does not have the patience or the pure skill to do a lot of detail


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 01:10:25


Post by: thekingofkings


 BlackLobster wrote:
This could be what brings me back to AoS.


blightwar didnt? look at that cute feller on the snail!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 02:09:23


Post by: Future War Cultist


Really excited about the new stuff. What are the odds those blight drone things will allow for both mortal and demon riders?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 02:35:42


Post by: auticus


Well the blight drones already have demonic riders. This just gives them mortal riders as well IMO.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 02:50:51


Post by: Future War Cultist


Completely forgot about those...at any rate, it's nice to see nurgle being made out into a full faction.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 03:05:16


Post by: Galas


Its funny how Nurgle was my least favourite Chaos God, aesthetically (Behind Greek-Slaanesh and over BDSM-Slaanesh)... but that has changed after all this releases. It all started with Blightkings


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 05:09:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


As a Nurgle player on both sides of the AoS/40k fence I'm pretty excited for the next two months!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 05:14:05


Post by: thekingofkings


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As a Nurgle player on both sides of the AoS/40k fence I'm pretty excited for the next two months!


you nurgle players, you......wait for it,.....wait for it.....make me sick


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 05:25:03


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I played Nurgle before it was cool dammit!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 10:28:04


Post by: Spiky Norman


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As a Nurgle player on both sides of the AoS/40k fence I'm pretty excited for the next two months!

You and me both! :-)
I started a Primaris Marines army with the release of 40k 8th edition, but now I really need to finish painting it all, before this deluge of Nurgle washes over us!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 10:40:50


Post by: Hanskrampf


 thekingofkings wrote:
 auticus wrote:
So nurgle is finally getting his due with his own book up next per Warhammer Community. Some sweet new models. The new great unclean ones all look very nice and on par in size it appears with the forgeworld GUO. The drone riding mortals also look very nice.

Just in time for Azyr Empires campaign for my group this spring!

Will you be embracing or facing the new rot at all in the mortal realms?


not dissapointed with more nurgle, but come on, lets get some slaanesh in here.


Here's a thread about a new/updated faction, better bring up Sisters of Battle... uhh, Slaanesh.

On topic: I really love the new GUO, I already bought cheap Nurgle units in anticipation for this release over the last few months. Very cool that Blightkings can now be on drones.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 15:29:00


Post by: Wayniac


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/27/the-third-day-of-nurgle-heraldsgw-homepage-post-3/

New stuff looks amazing. However, the name "Sloppity Bilepiper" has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 16:27:10


Post by: Future War Cultist


I...weirdly like the name. And the model is awesome. As is the Spoilpox Scrivener. I love the huge cartoony mouth thing!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 16:47:12


Post by: auticus


The new spells they teased are nice.

They specificially mentioned blight kings getting a points drop AND there's a spell that every 6 you roll to hit is an additional mortal wound caused. And with blight kings... well thats D6 mortal wounds it was hinted at.

Oh my. Thats just foul.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 16:56:32


Post by: Wayniac


Well, Blightkings now have it IIRC a roll of 6+ to hit does d6 wounds. So this sounds like it would be a mortal wound, then d6 regular wounds since you rolled a 6+.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 17:27:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 auticus wrote:
The new spells they teased are nice.

They specificially mentioned blight kings getting a points drop AND there's a spell that every 6 you roll to hit is an additional mortal wound caused. And with blight kings... well thats D6 mortal wounds it was hinted at.

Oh my. Thats just foul.
It would be one mortal + d6 wound rolls, thankfully. But I'm sure you know as well as I that blightkings need a small points increase, not a reduction.

Still super excited for the battletome and having tons of options! I'll certainly be frantically updating my nurgle army thread for a couple months.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 18:57:02


Post by: stratigo


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 auticus wrote:
The new spells they teased are nice.

They specificially mentioned blight kings getting a points drop AND there's a spell that every 6 you roll to hit is an additional mortal wound caused. And with blight kings... well thats D6 mortal wounds it was hinted at.

Oh my. Thats just foul.
It would be one mortal + d6 wound rolls, thankfully. But I'm sure you know as well as I that blightkings need a small points increase, not a reduction.

Still super excited for the battletome and having tons of options! I'll certainly be frantically updating my nurgle army thread for a couple months.


Pffft, if a chaos army isn't top tier, then they are obviously doing something wrong. Every new chaos book has to make their faction at least as broken as a murderhost, if not as busted as the disciples.



Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 19:25:19


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Khorne was pretty good when it came out, minus a few battalions. Then with GHB2 they reduced the cost on thirsters and the bloodletters got the massive unit imbalance, and ham-fistedly nerfed battalions across the board wether they needed it or not. As for Tzeentch... I don't know wtf they were thinking when they priced some of that stuff out. GHB2 helped but not enough.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 22:10:26


Post by: auticus


Wayniac wrote:
Well, Blightkings now have it IIRC a roll of 6+ to hit does d6 wounds. So this sounds like it would be a mortal wound, then d6 regular wounds since you rolled a 6+.


For blight kings a roll of 6 to hit = D6 hits. You still have to roll to wound with them all.

t would be one mortal + d6 wound rolls, thankfully. But I'm sure you know as well as I that blightkings need a small points increase, not a reduction.


Probably. But at this point they've already let loose the broken underpointed units run rampant, so I'm not going to complain that one of my prime armies is finally viable again because we have some underpointed units too.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/27 23:57:17


Post by: BlackLobster


 thekingofkings wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
This could be what brings me back to AoS.


blightwar didnt? look at that cute feller on the snail!


At the time I was far more interested in 40K. But assuming I can go with a Nurgle daemon army under Rotbringers the I can use the daemons I have for both games.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 01:14:31


Post by: thekingofkings


 BlackLobster wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
This could be what brings me back to AoS.


blightwar didnt? look at that cute feller on the snail!


At the time I was far more interested in 40K. But assuming I can go with a Nurgle daemon army under Rotbringers the I can use the daemons I have for both games.

but ..but the cute racing snail!! gotta have that


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 05:05:59


Post by: stratigo


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Khorne was pretty good when it came out, minus a few battalions. Then with GHB2 they reduced the cost on thirsters and the bloodletters got the massive unit imbalance, and ham-fistedly nerfed battalions across the board wether they needed it or not. As for Tzeentch... I don't know wtf they were thinking when they priced some of that stuff out. GHB2 helped but not enough.


KAiros was whispering in their ear


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 11:31:15


Post by: Lord Kragan


 thekingofkings wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
This could be what brings me back to AoS.


blightwar didnt? look at that cute feller on the snail!


At the time I was far more interested in 40K. But assuming I can go with a Nurgle daemon army under Rotbringers the I can use the daemons I have for both games.

but ..but the cute racing snail!! gotta have that


That's assuming you cannot field Horticulous for 40k come next codex daemons.... which is this january.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 12:42:32


Post by: Wayniac


I'm betting Horty will have rules in Codex Daemons and get a rebox on his own.

I am VERY excited the more previews I see. I was really hoping for Pestigor though but GW Facebook replied to me asking about it with their typical marketing BS response (e.g. "We haven't heard anything, stay tuned for more info!"), which means no Pestigors, so either Maggotkin isn't meant to have a chaff troop like Bloodreavers or Acolytes (which, as someone who likes more elite armies I'd have no problem with this), or Plaguebearers are meant to be that, or they'll just be lazy and include taking Marauders/Chaos Warriors in the army list.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 15:22:58


Post by: auticus


Plaguebearers are the chaffe troop.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 15:23:12


Post by: EnTyme


Or they could announce another unit we haven't seen yet. I'm honestly glad we haven't seen Khorngors, Slaangors, or Pestigors yet as it keep the Tzeentch-aligned army feeling a little more unique. I focuses on Tzeentch's aspect of change (though I would just as soon see the aspect of mutation shown through armored humans with extra heads, tentacles, claws, etc.). To be clear, I hope and assume the other three god-specific Gors will come at a later date (maybe with a Brayherds book), but I like how thus far, each god's mortal army feels unique. Giving everyone some form of Gor would lessen that uniqueness.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 16:30:50


Post by: Wayniac


New article up. Lord of Blights looks freaking awesome. This is already looking way better IMHO than Death Guard. I'm all but sold on this as my new army, there'd have to be like some majorly cool death faction to compete with it (and that would mainly be because hardly anyone around here plays Death). Already feeling a lot more excited about AOS than I have about 40k.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 16:51:37


Post by: EnTyme


I'm still working my way through the Chaos Gods for my armies. I'll be starting my Tzeentch Arcanites when my kits come in tomorrow, but can't wait to start on the Rotbringers once I have a playable Tzeentch army painted.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 18:11:21


Post by: Mangod


Maybe there'll be a proper Poxwalker kit, so you can kit them out for AoS OR 40k depending on personal preference?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 18:41:23


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Poxwalkers aren't ever going to be in AoS; zombies are covered by undead armies on the fantasy side. The current poxwalker sculpts are also totally unsuited for AoS in aesthetic. I still think pestigors are on the way though.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 18:57:46


Post by: Wayniac


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Poxwalkers aren't ever going to be in AoS; zombies are covered by undead armies on the fantasy side. The current poxwalker sculpts are also totally unsuited for AoS in aesthetic. I still think pestigors are on the way though.


I hope so but the reply I got from GW was the typical "We haven't said anything about that yet" vague way of saying no.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/28 23:26:28


Post by: auticus


I'm not holding my breath for pestigors. At least for this trip.

A beastmen book would be sweet though.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 15:27:36


Post by: Wayniac


Day 5 article up. Pusgoyle Blightlords, aka Blightkings on Blight Drones. Option to make one a hero, which while cool means you'll be 1 short for Matched Play likely unless you buy additional boxes, which is super lame. I really hate that approach because it screws around with Matched Play; by now GW has to know that 99% of people are playing Matched Play, so things like this is just BS by making you pay for 6 and only getting 5 because you chose to make one guy a hero.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 15:34:13


Post by: Galas


The pic had two. If the pic had two I thing the box will have two too.

I'm not gonna get bitted again like with the Plague Marines, hoping for a 10-man box.
So basically with two boxes you could have a 3 man unit + the Hero.

The same problem happens with the Eater Courts and the Crypth big dude box of 3 models, where you can make one a hero.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 15:38:43


Post by: Wayniac


Yeah, difference was that the FEC box you often ran multiple heroes, I bought several boxes and was able to do 1 of each hero and then like 6 of each type.

Not sure if it will be 2 or 3 in a box, 2 would feel better only because of that, but then the question is if the unit size would also be 2.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 15:53:04


Post by: EnTyme


Have we seen a warscroll yet? This may be a unit you can take as a single model.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 17:29:24


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


How hard is it to stick a lord of plagues or kit bash some unholy amalgamation and toss him on a spare drone? Boom there is your other pusgoyle, so you can make the Lord of affliction and the other pusgoyle from the box of (likely) 2.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 18:40:07


Post by: Future War Cultist


The rotbringers still have a lot of stuff in Finecast don’t they? Think that’ll be kept on or will they ditch them? Because they are decent models. It’s not their fault they’re made out of a crap material.

Actually, could it be possible to convert Finecast into plastic in the future?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 18:49:13


Post by: Kanluwen


 Future War Cultist wrote:
The rotbringers still have a lot of stuff in Finecast don’t they? Think that’ll be kept on or will they ditch them? Because they are decent models. It’s not their fault they’re made out of a crap material.

Actually, could it be possible to convert Finecast into plastic in the future?

Finecast is actually much, much improved these days.

That said, there's not much in Finecast.
There's 11 items right now for Rotbringers. 3 aren't plastic. The Harbinger of Decay(resin lord on horseback), Festus the Leechlord(resin), and the Rotbringers Sorcerer(it doesn't say what material he is--might even still be selling in metal) are those 3.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 18:54:41


Post by: EnTyme


Tzeentch's finecast models (not sure what the were called originally, but now they're the Curseling and Fatemaster) carried over to the Arcanites, so I'd expect Festus, Harbinger, and Rotbringer Sorcerer to be in this book. And yes. The last few Finecast model's I've bought were much higher quality than some of the older stuff. I still greatly prefer plastic, but it's not as bad as it once was.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 19:34:20


Post by: NinthMusketeer


GW could neatly avoid the 5/6 unit problem by giving AoS actual points instead of the power levels. Ya know, like min size unit of 3 costs X, with additional models at +Y...

I'll be happy the day PPC isn't needed anymore, if it ever comes.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 19:37:34


Post by: EnTyme


I think a full points system like that might require a full edition change with different loadouts listed separately on warscrolls like they are in 40k. Could be wrong, though.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 19:58:00


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 auticus wrote:
The new spells they teased are nice.

They specificially mentioned blight kings getting a points drop AND there's a spell that every 6 you roll to hit is an additional mortal wound caused. And with blight kings... well thats D6 mortal wounds it was hinted at.

Oh my. Thats just foul.
It would be one mortal + d6 wound rolls, thankfully. But I'm sure you know as well as I that blightkings need a small points increase, not a reduction.

Still super excited for the battletome and having tons of options! I'll certainly be frantically updating my nurgle army thread for a couple months.


You really think blightkings need a points INCREASE?? I wouldn't be unhappy if they stayed the same.. but I defintley think they are priced a bit high for their effectiveness. I know they are dropping, but I hope they drop to 150/160. That's the sweet spot IMO.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 20:26:38


Post by: EnTyme


That reminds me, Ninth I was going to ask what makes you think they're undercosted? I haven't seen many Blightkings in top tournament lists. Just curious what your reasoning is.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 21:06:17


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Well, theres a difference between what a unit if blightkings is worth and what each blightking in a unit is worth. I'd say a blightking is worth about 35 pts. However, their putrescent discharge ability is unit wide and doesn't scale with size. That, combined with other minor factors, means blightkings are only really going to be taken at minimum size. Accordingly the point cost should represent the way they are actually used, meaning about 200 points.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/29 21:47:01


Post by: tydrace


 Kanluwen wrote:

Finecast is actually much, much improved these days.

That said, there's not much in Finecast.
There's 11 items right now for Rotbringers. 3 aren't plastic. The Harbinger of Decay(resin lord on horseback), Festus the Leechlord(resin), and the Rotbringers Sorcerer(it doesn't say what material he is--might even still be selling in metal) are those 3.


Can't speak for all but my Rotbringers Sorcerer from last year was finecast.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 04:56:30


Post by: auticus


Whats going to be fun is that the new drones with the mortals riding them can make the hero. Which means if you go that route your unit will be a model short since there is no way to pay just for one model at a time.

ie... box comes with three models. But I use one to make the hero. Pay for the unit of three but only have two models.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 09:33:29


Post by: CoreCommander


 auticus wrote:


ie... box comes with three models. But I use one to make the hero. Pay for the unit of three but only have two models.


Judging by the box, it will come with two models only. It makes less sense compared to older monstrous cavalry kits, but the new dracothian guard comes with 2 models aswell, are listed at the same price and one could be a hero... Soo you'd be needing 2 boxes at minimum If you want to make the hero (80 quid, 110 euro etc...(


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 14:57:05


Post by: EnTyme


We'll have to see what the matched play profile looks like. You may be able to take Blightlords one model at a time.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 15:36:49


Post by: auticus


My bad. I just saw that they will likely be in a box of 2. :-/


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 15:55:08


Post by: Kanluwen


 auticus wrote:
My bad. I just saw that they will likely be in a box of 2. :-/

"Likely" = "Confirmed via the photos and product description".

It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. They're the same price as Dracothian Guards but without the multiple unit build that DGs have. Two boxes of the Blightlords nets you 3 Blightlords and the character who apparently buffs them.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 18:53:25


Post by: NinthMusketeer


If the unit comes in multiples of 2 that's actually worse. If they can be taken individually then there isn't a problem. Dracothian guard can be taken individually on the warscroll but are bought in pairs in matched play.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:03:21


Post by: Kanluwen


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If the unit comes in multiples of 2 that's actually worse. If they can be taken individually then there isn't a problem. Dracothian guard can be taken individually on the warscroll but are bought in pairs in matched play.

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Are you trying to say there's a rule in play, right now, that you buy additional models for a unit based on the minimum size? Because I can't find anything saying that is the case.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:08:53


Post by: EnTyme


You may have missed part of the conversation. The Pusgoyle Blightlords come in boxes of two. One can be built as a hero unit. The problem is, if the minimum unit size for Matched Play is two models, you can either build the hero and have one Blightlord left over, or build both as Blightlords and not have a hero. If the minimum unit size is one model, though, there won't be an issue. I'm mostly just trying to encourage people to wait until we see the rules before we panic.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:11:44


Post by: Kanluwen


 EnTyme wrote:
You may have missed part of the conversation. The Pusgoyle Blightlords come in boxes of two. One can be built as a hero unit. The problem is, if the minimum unit size for Matched Play is two models, you can either build the hero and have one Blightlord left over, or build both as Blightlords and not have a hero. If the minimum unit size is one model, though, there won't be an issue. I'm mostly just trying to encourage people to wait until we see the rules before we panic.

I didn't miss that. I literally addressed that in my reply to Auticus.

Ninth's comment seems to be more that Guard can only be bought in pairs and that's what is causing confusion for me. Did I miss something where they set it up like 40k's stupid nonsense of buying multiples?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:16:06


Post by: EnTyme


He means that the physical kit comes in twos. AoS has basically used 40k's power level system since it launched, so in Matched Play, you buy models in blocks. If the minimum unit size for Blightlords is 2 models, you can take units of 2, 4, 6, etc. With two in the physical kit, if you decide to build the hero variant, you're left with an odd number. If you want to use that single model in a Blightlords unit, you would have to pay full price for half a unit "block".


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:21:47


Post by: Kanluwen


 EnTyme wrote:
He means that the physical kit comes in twos. AoS has basically used 40k's power level system since it launched, so in Matched Play, you buy models in blocks. If the minimum unit size for Blightlords is 2 models, you can take units of 2, 4, 6, etc. With two in the physical kit, if you decide to build the hero variant, you're left with an odd number. If you want to use that single model in a Blightlords unit, you would have to pay full price for half a unit "block".

That right there. That's what I needed.

Where is this cited? I'm looking through GHB and the one Battletome I own and see nothing saying that they're bought in 2s or whatnot. I just see points listed with minimum/maximum unit sizes and that's it.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:29:13


Post by: Valander


“Larger units are taken in multiples of their minimum unit size, as long as the number of models in the unit does not exceed its maximum unit size. When you take a larger unit, multiply the cost of the unit by the same amount as you multiplied its minimum size.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “General's Handbook 2017.” iBooks.
On page 86.

To be fair, there is a rule for "understrength units," but you still pay the points for the next tier; no per-model points in AOS.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:31:25


Post by: Kanluwen


 Valander wrote:
“Larger units are taken in multiples of their minimum unit size, as long as the number of models in the unit does not exceed its maximum unit size. When you take a larger unit, multiply the cost of the unit by the same amount as you multiplied its minimum size.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “General's Handbook 2017.” iBooks.
On page 86.

To be fair, there is a rule for "understrength units," but you still pay the points for the next tier; no per-model points in AOS.

Thank you. I must have entirely glossed over it.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:34:54


Post by: Valander


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Valander wrote:
“Larger units are taken in multiples of their minimum unit size, as long as the number of models in the unit does not exceed its maximum unit size. When you take a larger unit, multiply the cost of the unit by the same amount as you multiplied its minimum size.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “General's Handbook 2017.” iBooks.
On page 86.

To be fair, there is a rule for "understrength units," but you still pay the points for the next tier; no per-model points in AOS.

Thank you. I must have entirely glossed over it.
No prob. For the record, similar rule was in the previous GHB, so it's always been the case for AOS.

Personally, I'm hoping they'll not screw this like the have a lot of the Flesh Eater Courts kits, which seem to be the same kinda deal; box has 3 models, you can optionally build one as a character, but then you're off on count for unit sizes. Given that, I'm actually expecting it to go this way, which is annoying. Even after 2 GHBs with Matched Play, it seems GW still writes the Warscrolls with the assumption that everyone only uses Open/Narrative play.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:37:13


Post by: EnTyme


*Edit* Valander was less wordy in his explanation. Go with that.

I'm honestly betting the minimum unit size will be 2 models. I'm hoping it'll be 1, though. At the very least, maybe they can give us a reason to run multiples of the hero variant.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 19:39:35


Post by: Kanluwen


That's where the issue stems from for me I guess.

I didn't buy GHB2016. I had no use for it. I did get 2017 as it gives me Allegiance abilities for my Wanderers. I then just kinda ignored the Matched Play stuff for the most part.

Smart money is going to be that they never fix this. I don't even think it's an Open/Narrative play issue just an issue of them not realizing it can be problematic.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 23:04:09


Post by: auticus


Yeah if the model comes in ones for points purposes there is no issue.

If the unit is in twos then there is a problem because those model kits are expensive and having a left over model that you pay full points for but only get one of the two models in the unit is not desirable in competitive play.

Alternatively if the hero is also released in a blister, which I'm going to doubt will happen, then it is also a non-issue.

Last, to get around it you build the hero and then you convert the second to also be the hero and have two heroes from one box.

If you aren't using points then it is also a non-issue. In my area, there is no such thing as a wargame without points though so that won't work for me if I want to play against other people.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 23:29:48


Post by: Galas


We can only pray for the hero to be OP so we want more than 1 in our armies


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2017/12/30 23:38:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I'll use PPC to avoid the issue for regular games, but.for leagues and tournaments it would be a little annoying to deal with. If I'm gunna pay that much per model I'd hope they make them individually purchasable.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/01 15:01:03


Post by: Wayniac


 auticus wrote:
Yeah if the model comes in ones for points purposes there is no issue.

If the unit is in twos then there is a problem because those model kits are expensive and having a left over model that you pay full points for but only get one of the two models in the unit is not desirable in competitive play.

Alternatively if the hero is also released in a blister, which I'm going to doubt will happen, then it is also a non-issue.

Last, to get around it you build the hero and then you convert the second to also be the hero and have two heroes from one box.

If you aren't using points then it is also a non-issue. In my area, there is no such thing as a wargame without points though so that won't work for me if I want to play against other people.


Yep, precisely. So we have these possibilities:

1) Pusgyole Blightlords min unit size for Matched Play is 2 and hero is OP enough you want to field 2 (potentially good)

2) Pusgoyle Blightlords min unit size for Matched Play is 1 (potentially good)

3) Pusgoyle Blightlords min unit size for Matched Play is 2 and hero isn't worth fielding (potentially good)

4) Pusgoyle Blightlords min unit size for Matched Play is 2 and hero is good, but not so good you want 2 (very bad)

Sadly I think it will be #4. Which means you're left paying for 2 models and only fielding 1, or not fielding the character, or at the mercy of eBay scalpers if you want to get an extra one to bulk out a unit. However it might be a good idea to buy two boxes and build a second hero, and then sell the hero to people because everyone else will be facing this same problem lol.

What might be a bigger load of bullgak is $40 USD for one Beast of Nurgle.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/01 15:48:22


Post by: EnTyme


I agree. As expensive as the GUO is, the real ripoff to me is the price of the Beast. It may be worth the price if you end up with just a ton a bits to use for conversions and kit bashes, though.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/01 21:50:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I'm hoping they buff it to a 100-point model at least. If they were strong mini-monsters it would dampen the hit.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 06:04:56


Post by: Fafnir


I'm hoping the GUO gets a point cost (and fitting profile) hike to at least 400 points. I mean, cheaper units is nice and all, but damn, that price point is really hard to justify, and I really want one.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 06:31:42


Post by: NinthMusketeer


240 is such a steal for him anyway, I'm hoping at least 400 after seeing the updated profile with 16(!) wounds. (Note that with disgusting resilience this is an effective 24 wounds, before accounting for healing.)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 06:36:48


Post by: Future War Cultist


Is it possible to put plague monks into the rotbringers without breaking allegiance? They could provide the cheap troops they might need.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 07:37:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Yes, but marauders with mark of Nurgle are better for that role. Plague monks are somewhat of a specialist unit given their extremely high offense compared to defense.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 12:35:31


Post by: Wayniac


That part actually has me confused, whether or not you can take Slaves to Darkness and not lose allegiance. I think you can, but it's weird because the keywords in AOS don't work quite like the ones in 40k, and the fact everything has its own heading in Pitched Battles adds more confusion.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 14:56:35


Post by: EnTyme


That depends on which allegiance you're using. If this is like the other two god tomes (Blades of Khorne and Disciples of Tzeentch), then the allegiance the book focuses on is Nurgle. This means any model with the Nurgle keyword can use the command abilities, army abilities, and spells from the book. Based on the FAQs, Nurgle Daemons and Nurgle Rotbringers can also use the full book. Not sure about Pestilens allegiance, though as there isn't any precedence. I would imagine they would be able to choose between these or the Pestilens abilities.

As far as breaking allegiance, you could add Pestilens units or Slaves to Darkness units with a Nurgle mark without breaking the Nurgle allegiance, but you would break the Nurgle Rotbringers allegiance unless taken as allies. The difference is you wouldn't be able to take Blight Kings as battleline in a Nurgle allegiance army, assuming the Nurgle Mortal requirement is changed to Nurgle Rotbringers (the requirement for taking Skullcrushers as battleline was changed from Khorne Mortal to Khorne Bloodbound when Blades released).

At any point in my mindless rambling, did I answer your question?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 15:00:02


Post by: Future War Cultist


You did thank you.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 17:48:37


Post by: Wayniac


 EnTyme wrote:
That depends on which allegiance you're using. If this is like the other two god tomes (Blades of Khorne and Disciples of Tzeentch), then the allegiance the book focuses on is Nurgle. This means any model with the Nurgle keyword can use the command abilities, army abilities, and spells from the book. Based on the FAQs, Nurgle Daemons and Nurgle Rotbringers can also use the full book. Not sure about Pestilens allegiance, though as there isn't any precedence. I would imagine they would be able to choose between these or the Pestilens abilities.

As far as breaking allegiance, you could add Pestilens units or Slaves to Darkness units with a Nurgle mark without breaking the Nurgle allegiance, but you would break the Nurgle Rotbringers allegiance unless taken as allies. The difference is you wouldn't be able to take Blight Kings as battleline in a Nurgle allegiance army, assuming the Nurgle Mortal requirement is changed to Nurgle Rotbringers (the requirement for taking Skullcrushers as battleline was changed from Khorne Mortal to Khorne Bloodbound when Blades released).

At any point in my mindless rambling, did I answer your question?

Well, in GH2017 they changed Blightkings to be NURGLE allegiance, not NURGLE MORTAL but yeah that does clear stuff up. I think, anyways, could be mistaken lol


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/02 18:10:30


Post by: EnTyme


If that's still the case, then go wild with the little plague rats. We'll have to see the new Matched Play profiles to know for sure.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 14:07:39


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


I have a random drone floating around my bits box and a lord of plauges that never saw the battlefield I will be converting into a second pusgoyle IF the unit size is two. Just a thought.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 14:12:18


Post by: auticus


If I want to run 6 (assuming the unit size is two) then looks like I'll snag four boxes and create two heroes and six normal drones.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 16:09:47


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


What can we expect for a point cost for each pusgoyle? Drone + plaguebro is 73. Blightking is 36 (but being reduced) if a plaguebro is worth 10. The drone is with 63. Will each pusgoyle be worth ~100 points?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 16:14:38


Post by: auticus


I won't even begin guessing. The guys that come up with these points are often all over the place. That is what I'm waiting on before I spend a dime because if they are way over pointed I'm not going to bother.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 16:43:47


Post by: Fafnir


 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
What can we expect for a point cost for each pusgoyle? Drone + plaguebro is 73. Blightking is 36 (but being reduced) if a plaguebro is worth 10. The drone is with 63. Will each pusgoyle be worth ~100 points?


Well, Dracothian Guard range from around 110ppm to 140ppm. Considering that your average Blightking is a bit more elite than your average Stormcast, I would be us to be popping in at around the northern side of that range (and when the models themselves cost so much, I would hope so).


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 18:30:20


Post by: Wayniac


The direction definitely seems to be an elite focused army. I wonder how that will hold up in the current "horde meta" of competitive AOS, although it's not like there will be no chaff units at all; a big block of Plaguebearers will be very good.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 18:40:43


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


FROM TGA FORUM:

Need to be a subscriber to watch the Vod when available but made a few notes during the stream. Just a selection below:

3 generic command traits and then 3 specific traits for either daemons, mortals, or rotbringers (so 6 available for each).
Spell selection and artefact selection also split in 3 subfactions.
One free tree prior to deployment (?) and more with contagion points (suggested that this would not cost reinforcement points).
Battalions including one of 3 GUOs (multiple abilities - one being that plaguewind increases mortal wound output by D3 with each other GUO within I think 7"), lord of plagues and blightkings, lord of affliction and blightkings, etc..
Every nurgle wizard has spell that allows you to change where you are on the cycle of corruption
GUO 340 points
Blightkings 160 points - 4 wounds each (champ has 5)


Lord of afflictions

8 wounds, 4+ save, movement 8. Disgustingly resilient (5+). Regen 1 wound per hero phase.

Reroll hit rolls of 1 for friendly rotbringers within 7” (?)

Command ability – Spearhead of contagion. Pick friendly pusgoyle within 14”, add 8” to their move (Having LoA as general makes pusgoyle blightlords battleline). Has Daemon keyword as well as rotbringer.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 19:36:06


Post by: Wayniac


Jeeze that sounds pretty good. Talk about a buff on Blightkings. Gain one wound, went down 20 points.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 19:42:18


Post by: EnTyme


Hmm. Sounds like sort of a hybrid of Khorne and Sylvaneth. Interesting.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 19:50:29


Post by: Kanluwen


Wayniac wrote:
Jeeze that sounds pretty good. Talk about a buff on Blightkings. Gain one wound, went down 20 points.

Don't pop the champagne yet, remember that the new flying guys are called "Blightlords" and everyone keeps referring to them as Blightkings.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 20:11:14


Post by: Wayniac


More leaks:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/9323-lets-chat-maggotkin-of-nurgle/?do=findComment&comment=159332


ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
Use the wheel from blightwar
Get a tree to setup for free in the deployment phase before sides and deployments are chosen.
tree rules (nurgle units within 7" can run and charge) It also has anohter rule i think but they did not mention it.
There is a contagion points system to summon without having to cast but do use reinforcement points for the units. However tree's are free and cost 7 contgion points to place.

COMMAND TRAITS
Rotbringer - add 2 to run and charge rolls for general.
Another trait they can have is an addtional save ignore damage on a 6+
Mortal - Overpowering Stench - The enemy must re-roll hit rolls against your general of a 6+.
Demons - Pestilent Breath - Pick a unit within 6" roll a dice for each model in target unit within 6". each model takes a mortal wound on a 5+.

The first three command traits are general and repeat over the three tables of 6 command traits for each catergory. The second three are spepcial to each table
1)start of hero phase move forward or backwards one step
2)roll a dice for in hero phase each 4+ mortal wound contagion point within 1 inch of general
3)hulking physice add 1 to wound rolls

ARTIFACTS
rotbringers - fecund flask once per battle hero drink roll dice on 2+ heal all wounds on 1 you dieturned into beast of nurgle.
Demons - re-roll hits of 6 while within 12" of the bearer.
Another one is -2 bravery to enemy units within 12"
Mortals - pick unit within 3" loss 1 from save rolls for the rest of the game. In hero phase

SPELLS
Wheel spell all nurgle wizards know this spell. This spell lets you manipulate the wheel allegiance trait to whaever number you want from 1 to 6.
(Rotbringers) Blades of Putrification - cast on 7 pick unit within 14" hit rolls of 6 cause a mortal wound in addtiion to normal damage.
(Daemons) Glorious Afflictions - 21" cast 5. pick a visible enemy unit its move, run and charge distance is halved. Till your nexthero phase.
(Mortal) Magnificant bub? - pick enemy hero in 21" takes d3 mortal wounds and must take -1 from cast and dispell rolls till your next hero phase.

Clawing quagmire 5 to cast 14" pick an enemy unit roll a dice. If you roll equal to or higher the enemies save they take D6 mortal wounds.

UNITS
Great Unclean One and Rotigus cost 340 points.
GUO command ability pick unit within 20" plus 1 attack each until nexthero phase.
Can cast two spells aswell now.
Rotigus's spell is also roll 7 dice and pick upto 7 different visible units. infinite range. On the roll of a 4+ each unit takes D3 mortal wounds. This roll to see if it works gets worse as Rotigus gets hurt.
All great Unclean Ones still heal D3 wounds in your hero phase aswell.

Hortilux Slimux Once during battle at start of hero phase within he can place a blight tree within 3" of himself.
Horticulus lets you place a tree for free if you take him.

Plague Drones
These guys are unchanged apart from their locus
Locus if within 7" of a nurgle hero plus one attack to all their melee weapons.

Lord of Afflictions (Hero on rotfly)
7 or 8 wounds
Every unit within 3" takes mortal wound on 4+ in the hero phase.
Virulent Discharge - roll a ice for every unit within 3" in the hero phase on a 6+ they take D3 mortal wounds nurgle units heal D3
Command Ability Spear Head of Contagion - Pick a friendly Pusgoyle Blightlords unit within 7 Inches that unit gains 8" of movement till your next hero phase.

Lord of Blights
Ranged 1 attack 14"(maybe) 3+ 3+ -3 d3 damage
Gives death heads to one other unit. 14" 4+ 3+ 1 dam no rend
Command abilit pick a nurgle unit within 21" Until your next hero phase enemy get -1 to hit in shooting phase against unit. If the target unit has 20 or more models enemeis get -2 to shoot and -1 in combat

Pusgoyl. 220 points
Just a rot fly with a king on it.
They get disgustingly resilient.
7 wounds each bravery 8 move 8 inches 4+ armour save.
3 attacks each for the rider. Just like a blight king.
One in two can have a bell. Hits on a 4+ wound on a 3+ rend 2- 2dam. One attack.
Demon keyword.

Blightkings 160 points now
One extra wound each so eachone has 4 now. This means the champion has 5.

Normal Heralds are wizards (Poxbringer)
6 to cast 7" d3 mortal wounds

FORMATIONS
Thricefold befoulment formation 160 points
3 GUO's (Rotigsu counts)
re-roll hit rolls of 1 if within 7" of 1 model from the battalion. Might be like 7".
re-roll wound rolls of 1 aswell if within 7" of 2 models from the battalion.
Plague storm if model from this battalion casts plague wind while wihtin 7" it does 2 D3 damage and healing instead if within range of 2 models from the formation it does 3D3 damage or healing instead.
PLAGUE WIND - Casts on 7. Draw a line from closest point on model to an enemy model 14" range. Any unit under the line takes D3 mortal wounds or if nurgle heals D3 mortal wounds.

No name given
Blight kings lord of plagues and three blight kings.
Lord of plagues can normally makes blightkings re-roll 1's when near him they now re-roll all misses instead.
Roll a dice in the hero phase on a 6 enemy units wihtin 1" of units from the formation take D3 mortal wounds.

Their is also another formation which was described as having 3 units of pusgoyle blightlords in and a Lord of afflictions but no detials given.

Menagery of Nurgle
Has Slimux in it and they didn't say what else. However it lets Slimux place a tree every turn instead of once per game.

BATTLELINE
Plague Bearers
Blight Kings if nurgle allegiance only
Pusgoyle Blightlords If lord of afflictions is the army general (This is the hero model on a rotfly.)
Doesn't look like we got nurglings as battleline.

The locus has now changed for all units that hvae them aswell.
Loci used to trigger omly if a nearby NURGLE PLAGUEBEARER HERO was nearby only. They have now changed this to read ANY NURGLE HERO.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 20:27:56


Post by: auticus


Looks pretty good.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/03 22:09:17


Post by: Fafnir


That all looks good. Really good. Almost too good. I worry that might all end up being a bit much.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 00:20:48


Post by: auticus


I mean they are cranking the knob to 11 with a bunch of other armies. If everything is cranked to 11 nothing is right?

I haven't had an army cranked to GW-11 in years. It'll be nice not to have my face rubbed in poop and told to git gud for a while


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 01:46:14


Post by: NinthMusketeer


If that information about blightkings is true I will be utterly disgusted with GWs point costs. That would make them as bad as skyfires were in GHB1 and reduce Nurgle army building to 'just spam blightkings'.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 12:48:45


Post by: auticus


I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Plugging the rumored values and updated warscroll into azyr comp to gauge its power and yep they came out at very high on the bell curve for their point cost. It will be spam city for blightkings. Amateur hour at GW? Or intentional to move kits? I guess we'll never know.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 13:13:09


Post by: Fafnir


Any word on Beasts yet? Also, I'm assuming nothing's been said or done to the Harbringer or Spume. That said, while the Harbringer will still be a solid core for Rotbringers, it's looking like he won't be an automatic pick for general anymore, which is nice.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 13:34:03


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If that information about blightkings is true I will be utterly disgusted with GWs point costs. That would make them as bad as skyfires were in GHB1 and reduce Nurgle army building to 'just spam blightkings'.


I have to disagree with you. I know you have maintained BK's were under costed, but I just dont see it. On par with GHB16 skyfires?? thats hyperbole IMO. skyfires were good at EVERYTHING. fast, tough to kill, amazing shooting, good combat and cheap. blightkings even now just are not on that level. For 5 at 180.. compared to blood warriors..they had one extra wound with their two special abilities being about evenly powered but BK's cost almost double. This bring it more in line IMO.

I was hoping they would stay at 180, get disgustingly resilient added to the warscroll and find another use for harbinger of decay. OR change the morbid vigor (5++ save within 7") to an ability and not a command ability.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 13:47:05


Post by: Wayniac


They don't seem that great honestly. they are tanky, but have no rend. I will have several units but I doubt it will be "spam blightkings". Skyfires were amazing because they could move super far, and had very high powered shots and shooting is OP in AOS because nothing can stop it short of killing the unit.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 13:50:47


Post by: auticus


They dont need rend when you can put out as many wounds as they can.

I've heard that a lot. That my BK are crap because they can't rend. And then they go off and do 15 - 20 wounds because of the exploding D6s. On top of that if you keep them within range of the GUO 6s to wound are mortal wounds.

I think if they stayed at 180 pts that they'd still be a tad undercost but not grossly undercost. If they drop to 140 points the math at least says that they move into an "A" unit in terms of efficiency (offense/defense per point spent)

Whether or not one believes in math is a different story.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 14:13:20


Post by: Wayniac


I don't know math at all (irony, being a programmer ). Also the leaks showed 160 points. I was torn between them or Deathrattle but since w eknow nothing about new death and I dislike hordes in general, leaning towards Maggotkin, also I've talked about doing Nurgle since like october of 2016


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 14:30:02


Post by: Vomikron Noxis


Aside from reduced cost Blightkings, any thoughts from anyone on what's looking good so far? I'm holding off until I see the battalions, but I'm hoping for good things from Daemons.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 14:31:09


Post by: auticus


I bring up the math thing only because I have had a number of people tell me that you can't use math to balance a wargame and trying to is pointless.

A game. That uses statiistics lol.

I'll have to see where they are at 160 points. I'm bettiing still in "A" territory. 160 is not as grotesque as 140 but I still think its fairly underpointed. Enough to still raise an eyebrow.

Regardless, I have twenty of them and they make a solid second line behind the plague bearers in my list.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 14:46:54


Post by: Wayniac


 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Aside from reduced cost Blightkings, any thoughts from anyone on what's looking good so far? I'm holding off until I see the battalions, but I'm hoping for good things from Daemons.


New GUO seems awesome (all three of them). Pusgoyle Blightlords seem good, not sure about their hero yet. Haven't seen the Beast yet, but I hope it got a buff because it's so expensive to buy.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 14:56:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Tempted to get a Beast just because I like the model!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 15:10:01


Post by: auticus


I be using my plague toads for my beasts


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 15:25:56


Post by: Vomikron Noxis


Beasts will no doubt be good, because they have a new model. I'm excited to see the Menagerie of Nurgle Battalion... infinite trees from Horticulous is going to be cool. Depends on the other benefits too.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 15:42:08


Post by: Galas


Point Costs need context of the faction. One unit can be mathematically OP, but if in the context of his faction is a meele only unit that totally lacks ways to transportation, and needs to run all the board being a slow unit, then it makes sense.

Thats why Sayl the Faithless was SO broken. Because mathematically OP units like Bloodletters that were balanced because they were fragile units that had 0 ways to move in the bard, gained the way to reach meele without any kind of problem.

Blightkings maybe are a powerhouse and undercosted once in meele. I'll admit that I don't play Nurgle. But has Nurgle ways to make them cross the board fast? Or they need to run and advance all the way towards meele?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 15:55:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On their own, most Nurgle units are fairly plodding in terms of pace. Not exactly slow, but far from fast.

However, it seems they will be getting speed boost options - including being able to Advance and Charge if near the Tree Thing.

But I see what you're saying, and it makes absolute sense.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 15:57:24


Post by: auticus


The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 16:21:51


Post by: Wayniac


I'm excited about the blightkings though. I despise horde armies, so an elite-focused army is super appealing to me.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 17:21:14


Post by: Galas


 auticus wrote:
The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.


Yeah, this is actually good, and this is why they are obviously OP for that cost. But I just wanted to point that a unit can be very "strong" in a void, but being balanced in the context of his faction. (Thats why for example I'll never expect to have more mathematically efficient Khorne shooting units, than a Elf army, because my Khorne units should pay a premium for helping me overcome one of my weakness. In reality that translated in people ignoring those options and just spamming the most OP unit in the faction? Yeah. But thats is down to other problems of the ruleset).
Personally I believe is a problem making "Nurgle" armies so fast. They should be literally the slowest faction of the game (On par with zombie hordes)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 17:43:20


Post by: CoreCommander


 auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community


Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 17:49:33


Post by: Wayniac


 CoreCommander wrote:
 auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community


Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?


Pretty sure they never unbanned him. TGA is... interesting. I like it a lot, but often it's basically a "UK Circlejerk" of people who just tow the GW party line no matter what, they are essentially like the US media, always biased in favor of their chosen candidate no matter what. In fact I just saw something there about why they seem overly positive about the slightly lackluster Malign Portens reveal was so GW doesn't get scared off from doing something like it again.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 17:50:14


Post by: auticus


 CoreCommander wrote:
 auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community


Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?


no I have not returned to TGA no do I plan on it. This was in a facebook AOS group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote:
 CoreCommander wrote:
 auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community


Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?


Pretty sure they never unbanned him. TGA is... interesting. I like it a lot, but often it's basically a "UK Circlejerk" of people who just tow the GW party line no matter what, they are essentially like the US media, always biased in favor of their chosen candidate no matter what. In fact I just saw something there about why they seem overly positive about the slightly lackluster Malign Portens reveal was so GW doesn't get scared off from doing something like it again.


Most of the guys on there also unfollowed me on twitter. It is what it is. It disappoints me that debate leads to open contempt and hostility. I thought that was reserved to political and religious arguments but even plastic toy soldiers can bring about that level of heat too.

The thing there as it was explained to me is that there are a couple of guys trying to also get on with the design studio and want to be seen as promoting a positive productive environment. Additionally they really love the direction of AOS and don't want other GW devs seeing criticism because they don't want the rules changed and if the GW devs are in a forum seeing critique they are afraid of a "knee jerk reaction" to appease people complaining.

Take that with salt, thats just how it was explained to me by people that are actually over there. I have no contact with any of the rules devs or people that matter to be able to confirm any of that, but it does make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 auticus wrote:
The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.


Yeah, this is actually good, and this is why they are obviously OP for that cost. But I just wanted to point that a unit can be very "strong" in a void, but being balanced in the context of his faction. (Thats why for example I'll never expect to have more mathematically efficient Khorne shooting units, than a Elf army, because my Khorne units should pay a premium for helping me overcome one of my weakness. In reality that translated in people ignoring those options and just spamming the most OP unit in the faction? Yeah. But thats is down to other problems of the ruleset).
Personally I believe is a problem making "Nurgle" armies so fast. They should be literally the slowest faction of the game (On par with zombie hordes)


I do concede that math in a void is not fully valid. The more complex the environment, the less mathematics in a vacuum are relevant. However, AOS is not very complex and is essentially a few primary factors when it comes down to beiing able to win games consistently:

* strength of ranged attacks. Because you are not limited to what you can shoot but melee units can get slowed down, strong ranged attacks are like gold
* number of mortal wounds you can output - because your opponent largely cannot save against them
* strength of melee attacks, or being able to dish out statistically a lot of damage after saves (so either high number of wounds with no rend, or lower number of wounds with high rends)
* beiing able to absorb damage by getting additional saves or beinga ble to save vs mortal wounds

the biggest player skill other than min/max your list with the above is target priority.

If you can min/max the numbers above and combine that with solid target priority, you are a "good player". Movement and positioning don't really matter as much because a lot of things can get across the board so fast and/or teleport directly where they want that it borders on being a version of a collectible card game with dice. (i'm not saying thats not fun miind you i'm saying those are the skills I find that really matter in determining good players vs not so good players)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:08:01


Post by: NinthMusketeer


"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid; X will not happen." -At the release of GHB1

X happens.

"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid, Y will not happen." -At the release of GHB2

Y happens.

"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid, Z will not happen." -Now

Anyone want to make a bet?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:14:25


Post by: Wayniac


But has it? I Mean, I like auticus (now, anways; we butted heads on BOLS long ago). But I do think he puts a little too much faith in his math and his comp system. It's good, yes, and probably better than SCGT/GHB Matched was or will be, but it's not perfect. The game isn't quite as degenerate as the doom and gloom has predicted. I get that his area is full of min/maxing tryhards who will jump on anything and everything if it gives an advantage, that's very unfortunate, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be that bad across the game.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:16:34


Post by: auticus


I had a fun conversation with someone today on BOLS about how math can't be used in game design. Its a gem.

I'm wrong and incorrect and a bad man.

"Blightkings at 160 points are just fine. They won't be dominating the tournament scene"

Fallacy: that the tournament scene is the conclusive evidence that is needed to determine something's power. That 4 or 5 large scale events a YEAR are conclusive evidence.

"You saying blight kings are undercost and very efficient now is just plain wrong because I'd take skyfires every time."

Fallacy: that if another unit is more powerful then that means the unit in question cannot be efficient at all because something more powerful exists.

Fallacy: that if out of 1000 units, a unit comes in at say... #15 in raw score efficiency that because units #1 - #5 are grossly undercost that means that coming in #15 out of 1000 doesn't mean its one of the most efficient units in the game. Because saying that is "vague".

The community is on a roll today. A roll I tell ya.

I've got some more blight kings to put together. If anyone complains I'll just tell them that math doesn't matter and that they should just git gud


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:19:10


Post by: Galas


I agree Auticus. Player skill at the end of the day in warhammer40k and AoS comes down to nearly 70-80% list-building and target priority. Then the rest comes down to how do you need to place your models for auras, meele consolidation, etc...

I believe in general movility and damage output should be dialed down a bit. Like they did in Heroes of the Storm. A 5% nerf across the board for healing, life and damage to all supports of the game, because they where mathemathcally the most efficient and powerfull heroes of the game.

As many other people say, is not about making a perfect game. Is about making a "good enough" game that is good and engagin. Super Smash Bros Brawl is for many the best fighting game out there. Very fun and balanced. But in competitive tournaments, literally something like 78% of the players use FOX (I don't remember the exact number but it was disproportionate). Min/Maxing in the high end of competitive scene will ALWAYS happen. Because if theres even a 5% power difference people will use it.
And I remember the article that Wainiac, you linked, about Street Figther 2, with Akuma, etc... that was a good insight in all this competitive vs casual.
Of course, the problem is that normally with online games, you have a ton of "casual" modes. In warhammer, if your group only play with ultra-competitive lists, you are screwed.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:20:41


Post by: Valander


Math absolutely has a place in determining balance.It isn't, however, "the last, true answer." It can give a very strong starting point, but there's still some need for adjusting "by feel" for a lot of things.

Now, do not get me wrong. If some math shows something pretty haywire (like some of Auticus' stuff has), then it's very likely a problem and shouldn't just be handwaved away "for the feel of it." At the same time, though, math sometimes cannot take into account certain things like uniqueness or rarity (by that I mean number of X that can be taken), which can adjust the "points efficacy" math a decent bit. Sure, if a character that you can only have one of in an army is a bit stronger, by the math, for their points, you can be ok with that knowing they can't be spammed. But, again, that requires some human judgement; though if the math shows same character as outrageous, then they should probably be adjusted some.

Sadly, around here the AoS scene isn't big enough for me to confirm or deny Auticus' prophesies locally.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:21:34


Post by: auticus


Wayniac wrote:
But has it? I Mean, I like auticus (now, anways; we butted heads on BOLS long ago). But I do think he puts a little too much faith in his math and his comp system. It's good, yes, and probably better than SCGT/GHB Matched was or will be, but it's not perfect. The game isn't quite as degenerate as the doom and gloom has predicted.


I never said I came up with a perfect system, but I do believe its miles tighter than the current thing we have. But my system was designed to make a lot more things viable, which cuts out listbuilding mattering as much, and a lot of people hate that.

It had flaws like any system. There is no perfect system. Especially concerning summoning.

And I know math iin a vacuum is useless. But math in a statistics based system is a good gauge of patterns and probabilities. When I see poor players rolling around with stormcast cavalry and rerollable 2++ saves doling out buckets of mortal wounds and suddenly winning tournaments here, which I have, and then run the numbers and see that the formula is showing their army as having a really high power coefficient... yes I come to trust the math. The math also led me to a solid dozen grand tournament top 10 placings back in the late 90s and early aughts. So I do have a tendency to trust numbers more than peoples' feelings because it won me a bunch of trophies and certificates and free armies from high placings.

I don't even care about things being somewhat out of balance, but baby jesus some of this stuff...

If you take all of the things that were really nasty in 2016, we discussed it here as going to be nasty.
Same with last year.

Yeah there's ways to git gud and get around that, but there are still plenty of "why would you never take that" units. And when I said fyreslayers were going to be pretty gross I got laughed out of the room. Now they are allegedly everywhere.

The only thiing that I said that hasn't happened is that the skeleton armiies aren't dominating the tournament scene right now.

But I don't think thats because they couldn't... rather they don't have an updated book and I don't see any legacy armiies at public events hardly. Bring out an updated skeleton book with command traits and what not and leave the points and abiliteis as they are and I'd bet my left testicle that they sit at the top of the power curve. Right now they suffer from no new models and no modern book and thats a player psychology thing. I know a bunch of players personally that are chomping at the bit for a new skeleton book so that there are new models and updated spells and command traits, and not because they think the army is weak.

And rumor has it we will see a skeleton book soon. If that happens, believe me I will be VERY keen on seeing how the tournament scene looks shortly thereafter.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:23:45


Post by: Wayniac


 auticus wrote:
I had a fun conversation with someone today on BOLS about how math can't be used in game design. Its a gem.

I'm wrong and incorrect and a bad man.

"Blightkings at 160 points are just fine. They won't be dominating the tournament scene"

Fallacy: that the tournament scene is the conclusive evidence that is needed to determine something's power. That 4 or 5 large scale events a YEAR are conclusive evidence.

"You saying blight kings are undercost and very efficient now is just plain wrong because I'd take skyfires every time."

Fallacy: that if another unit is more powerful then that means the unit in question cannot be efficient at all because something more powerful exists.

Fallacy: that if out of 1000 units, a unit comes in at say... #15 in raw score efficiency that because units #1 - #5 are grossly undercost that means that coming in #15 out of 1000 doesn't mean its one of the most efficient units in the game. Because saying that is "vague".

The community is on a roll today. A roll I tell ya.

I've got some more blight kings to put together. If anyone complains I'll just tell them that math doesn't matter and that they should just git gud


I want to see that argument


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:25:09


Post by: auticus


Its on bols right now. I don't believe we are allowed to link to that stuff here and I don't want to violate forum rules. Just do a search on my name in Disqus. I've finished the conversation with said individual since we are just running in circles now and I think that said indiviidual is a poster on TGA since I had almost an identical conversation months ago.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:30:55


Post by: EnTyme


 auticus wrote:
I had a fun conversation with someone today on BOLS about how math can't be used in game design. Its a gem.

I'm wrong and incorrect and a bad man.

"Blightkings at 160 points are just fine. They won't be dominating the tournament scene"

Fallacy: that the tournament scene is the conclusive evidence that is needed to determine something's power. That 4 or 5 large scale events a YEAR are conclusive evidence.

"You saying blight kings are undercost and very efficient now is just plain wrong because I'd take skyfires every time."

Fallacy: that if another unit is more powerful then that means the unit in question cannot be efficient at all because something more powerful exists.

Fallacy: that if out of 1000 units, a unit comes in at say... #15 in raw score efficiency that because units #1 - #5 are grossly undercost that means that coming in #15 out of 1000 doesn't mean its one of the most efficient units in the game. Because saying that is "vague".

The community is on a roll today. A roll I tell ya.

I've got some more blight kings to put together. If anyone complains I'll just tell them that math doesn't matter and that they should just git gud


*edit* this thread has gotten far enough off-topic without my help. If you want to see the discussion Auticus is referring to, follow this link and look at the comments: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/01/battletome-maggotkin-gw-rules-reveal-tidalwave.html





Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:32:56


Post by: Galas


"Point formulas are by far the worst way to point cost units."

Even when I did the roleplay ruleset for my online-warcraft server, had to use a mathematical formula for balance. Yeah, we changed many things to give "flavour". but always respecting the mathematical basis of the whole system to avoid great imbalances.
You NEED a mathematical formula to be the hard core of your rules. Then, with playtesting, etc... you can fine tune it. But you NEED math to do a proper game. (If the game has stats , costs and stuff, of course)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:34:52


Post by: auticus


I don't see it as a big misrepresentation sorry. The crux of the argument is

* math can't be used to design strategy game points because tactics change values and you can't math them. That math formulas are the *worst* way to point cost units.

* that saying blight kings and ork brutes are one of the more efficient units invalidates my entire argument because other units are more powerful and ork brutes aren't dominating tournaments and there are other units that said individual would take every time which means that ork brutes and by virtue of my i nvalid argument, blight kings, are not efficient since other units would be taken over htem every time.

thats pretty much the two major points in that discussion against my argument.

The fallacy portion in my quote are the summarization of my counter argument.

Unless you're seeing something different in that discussion that I'm not seeing.

The guy did make some stupid statements, but you can't just disregard everything he says because he disagrees with you.


I'm not disregarding anything. I'm posting what I saw as his major points of contention and my rebuttals. If there's something in there that you ssee that I miss let me know, I'll add it and then discuss a counterpoiint to that, those are the two that I remember vividly though.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:38:01


Post by: Galas


The problem with Ironjawz Brutes is exactly what I said early. They are mathematically very efficient, but by the context of the faction (They lost all the d6 bonus movement in the hero phase), they can't really compete agaisn't other units. Shooting armies, etc...

Thats why Destruction is nearly non existant in the competitive scene.

And I agree that many people compares everything with the 3-5 most broken units in the game. Tau in 7th edition for example, wheren't winning tournaments. But they where REALLY powerfull. They could bully many armies without a problem (And I play tau!).
If people tried balance by reaching a "middle point", instead of "Everything needs to be able to compete with the FOTM units."


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 20:41:16


Post by: auticus


Thats a pretty good assessment. That is kind of inline with how I think about them as well.

Right now shooting is ... very busted in AOS because you can do it whenever you want and its not a complex to grapple with the notion that an attack that has 18" effective range is greater than one with 1" effective range.

Any tournament list I create for AOS would maximize shooting and mortal wounds at range. Because I can do it whenever I want. Assault combat armies just can't keep up.

That doesn't make brutes not efficient or at the top of the unit curve, nor does it make them undercost. It means that in the context of the ENTIRE GAME that they are up there, but not at the busted pinnacle like skyfires are.

The concept of requiring tournament domination to be efficient is a fallacy to me. Its the difference between a professiional footballer to a college footballer, and an all pro footballer to a professional.

A professional is at the top of his game. An all pro is the best of the best. A professional is still very efficient compared to all footballers.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 21:08:26


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Galas wrote:
The problem with Ironjawz Brutes is exactly what I said early. They are mathematically very efficient, but by the context of the faction (They lost all the d6 bonus movement in the hero phase), they can't really compete agaisn't other units. Shooting armies, etc...

Thats why Destruction is nearly non existant in the competitive scene.
Ironjawz problem has nothing to do with their army vs others and entirely due to the shooting meta that random initiative supports (hey, anyone remember when we said random initiative would create a shooting meta). Shooting armies gain much more from a double turn than melee armies, such that a round 1-2 double is the strongest thing in the game.

Wayniac wrote:
But has it? I Mean, I like auticus (now, anways; we butted heads on BOLS long ago). But I do think he puts a little too much faith in his math and his comp system. It's good, yes, and probably better than SCGT/GHB Matched was or will be, but it's not perfect. The game isn't quite as degenerate as the doom and gloom has predicted. I get that his area is full of min/maxing tryhards who will jump on anything and everything if it gives an advantage, that's very unfortunate, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be that bad across the game.
I'll stop supporting Auticus' assessments when they stop being right. But more than that, I am a player who has a ton of experience with AoS, and experience with balancing point costs that goes back further than GHB1. I don't need math to tell me that 160 points for 4-wound blightkings is OP. It's obvious. And it really should be to GW as well.

That said, still looking forward to the battletome. It's going to be sweet to have so many options, new units, and new fluff to chew through. I'm just frustrated because a big aspect of Nurgle for me was the skill needed to build a really successful army, and if these previews hold up (I am still hoping there's something missing to even things out) that will have been seriously reduced. My advice will be reduced from a thread's worth of paragraphs and tactics to: "Take a Harbinger, 7 Blightking units, Plaguetouched battalion, and fill the rest with whatever you want. If your opponent also brought a broken list remember to actually try." Right now it takes skill in listbuilding and gameplay to really excel with Nurgle, there's a certain respect that's earned from that, and I'm afraid it's going away. I see Tzeentch players being treated like low-skill metagamers even when they show up WITHOUT power lists, and it's a shame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Worth mentioning; there's a guy and my flgs who sometimes shows up with an army that has 8 blightking units, and it kicks ass. The local seraphon tournament player even has trouble against it. That is with blightkings as they are NOW.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 21:33:52


Post by: Wayniac


Well, there's a rumor there's a battalion with a Lord of Blights (new guy with the gallows on his back) and like 3 (presumably 3+) Blightkings that gives them all within 7" the ability to shoot (instead of just 1 unit) and -1 Rend to boot. So that might be the new go-to Battalion if it's true.

Me, I'm happy with an OP list because I'm like that, as long as there's flexibility to build things if you don't want to bring the cheese. Don't quite care if I'm considered a "low-skill metagamer" since my area tends to not be competitive anyways and I'm known as a "punching bag" with my Flesh-Eaters anyways...


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/04 22:48:08


Post by: auticus


Yeah there's a hero that lets blightkings shoot. The shooting attack by itself is not that bad, but when buffed with 6s to hit = mortal wounds + normal damage and being near a GUO (6s to wound = mortal wounds) this could be very... phreshhhh.

My new years resolution for gaming is to not care so much anymore. The direction of the current gen of gamers is obviously very much against what I normally enjoy so I can either stfu and just adapt and be a deckbuilding cheesehead with them or go play solo games like kingdom death and when i put out Prima Victoria stick with that. (15mm fantasy battles, I'm getting ready to sink a large chunk of my retirement savings into model production, as 15mm i don't need a ton of detail and I can get more bang for the buck)

So bring on the broken rotbringers.

Worth mentioning; there's a guy and my flgs who sometimes shows up with an army that has 8 blightking units, and it kicks ass. The local seraphon tournament player even has trouble against it. That is with blightkings as they are NOW


We just finished our league campaign last saturday. I went undefeated with my nurgle force and seeded 1st out of 17 players. The final battle was a four-way (the top four players), against an ogre player, seraphon, and tzeentch arcanites. My three opponents from the opening bell pounded on me the entire game. I almost won regardless... the final turn I was winning and only had to survive, but the seraphon player went on a blitzkrieg of summoning spells and brought in lord kroak and then plowed me with like 25 mortal wounds that I couldn't do anything about, giving the win to the tzeentch player. (summoning in this event was not matched play point cost, it was just harder to cast the summoning spells but the seraphon player successfully cast anything on doubles which slipped through the event pack so he was getting in free 1000 points or so a game worth of big monsters)

Next league campaign it won't be a four way and my nurgle force will have a significant upgrade (16 wound great unclean ones, cheaper and more powerful blightkings, better buffs and synergy).

But context, this was a campaign league and only two of the 17 lists were really tourney powered and they were both in the finals against me. Tourney lists would definitely own my nurgle list right now as it stands because I can't deal with aos min/max gunlines very well.

We will see how I do with them at the adepticon and nova narrative event as well. I know because of how well I did with them this year I take crap for trying to say that the nurgle list right now is meh (everyone hated the blight kings before, they are really going to hate them now)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 01:05:16


Post by: thekingofkings


playing without points has shown us that the only real math that matters on how much of a unit is out there is the number $$ it will cost.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 01:52:39


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Wayniac wrote:
Well, there's a rumor there's a battalion with a Lord of Blights (new guy with the gallows on his back) and like 3 (presumably 3+) Blightkings that gives them all within 7" the ability to shoot (instead of just 1 unit) and -1 Rend to boot. So that might be the new go-to Battalion if it's true.

Me, I'm happy with an OP list because I'm like that, as long as there's flexibility to build things if you don't want to bring the cheese. Don't quite care if I'm considered a "low-skill metagamer" since my area tends to not be competitive anyways and I'm known as a "punching bag" with my Flesh-Eaters anyways...
I know I'm gunna be busting out PPC way more often to play my Nurgle because honestly I have no interest in an OP army for regular games. I have skryrefyre which is my OP tournament army, so if I'm playing anything else I'm usually under-optimizing my list to match the opponent anyway. That battalion sounds fun, but with plaguetouched at 100 points the buff would have to be way better than that to compete (plaguetouched is -1 to hit in melee for everyone in it). Couple that at 160 one could fit in a 14-man blightking unit into the battalion, or even two by mixing in some marauders...


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 08:51:17


Post by: razora911


Well, if it's OP, I have faith in the GHB.
GW seems (to me), to be able to fairly nerf stuff, when they actually do.
It kinda feels like a Skyfires +40 points moment.
That said, I'm now considering starting Tzeentch instead of Nurgle, after I finish BCR.
I'd also defend the Rotbringers, if they had left out the new movement options. To me, AoS is an objective game. That's how you win.
And being slow (but super killy) is pretty balanced. Being fast (and super killy) is not.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 15:05:29


Post by: Wayniac


Yeah, I do not think they will be as crazy OP as it may seem. But time will tell, as the competitive crowd will find and break anything they get their grubby paws on.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 15:40:02


Post by: auticus


I think in the context of competitive play they will be fine.

I think in the context of casual play, you will need to restrain a liittle bit because as an OP unit they can easily dominate casual play and cause one sided and not very fun games.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 16:02:41


Post by: EnTyme


 auticus wrote:
I think in the context of competitive play they will be fine.

I think in the context of casual play, you will need to restrain a liittle bit because as an OP unit they can easily dominate casual play and cause one sided and not very fun games.


That's probably pretty accurate. I don't see Nurgle having much in the way of mobility, so objective taking will likely be an issue. Once they get there, though, they're gonna be hard to move. I think in the end, the Blightkings are going to be one of those units that are considered undercosted, but not so much so that they're going to change the tournament meta.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 17:27:58


Post by: Vomikron Noxis


Lots of movement boosting options leaked already... I’m morn sure mobility is going to be much of an issue!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 17:36:21


Post by: auticus


Yeah mobility is a non issue for nurgle with this book.

Blight kings have a bell upgrade already that boosts their movement.

Great Unclean one will have a bell to boost movement around him.

Nurgle wheel has a +2" move buff to all nurgle units.

Spell exists that lets you pick what you want on the wheel so you can pick the move buff.

Feces Tree lets you run AND charge if within 7" of it.

They aren't as fast as a slaanesh or mounted army but they aren't really slow anymore either.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 18:12:50


Post by: Galas


 auticus wrote:
Yeah mobility is a non issue for nurgle with this book.

Blight kings have a bell upgrade already that boosts their movement.

Great Unclean one will have a bell to boost movement around him.

Nurgle wheel has a +2" move buff to all nurgle units.

Spell exists that lets you pick what you want on the wheel so you can pick the move buff.

Feces Tree lets you run AND charge if within 7" of it.

They aren't as fast as a slaanesh or mounted army but they aren't really slow anymore either.


I think thats a big problem. In MOBA's theres this "movility creep", that they keep adding to the games. Because movility is fun, it allows you to be where you want to be and do things you couldn't otherwise do. At the same time, players love complete heroes. They don't like heroes with weakness. They aren't "as fun to play".
The same translates to armies. People don't like armies that have obvious and strong disadvantages. They want to be able to do everything. And that translates in developers adding ways to make the "disadvantages" of a given faction a non-issue.
I'm not saying Nurgle forces couldn't have some movility buff. But they should be pricey and in small numbers.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 18:22:46


Post by: EnTyme


 auticus wrote:
Yeah mobility is a non issue for nurgle with this book.

Blight kings have a bell upgrade already that boosts their movement.

Great Unclean one will have a bell to boost movement around him.

Nurgle wheel has a +2" move buff to all nurgle units.

Spell exists that lets you pick what you want on the wheel so you can pick the move buff.

Feces Tree lets you run AND charge if within 7" of it.

They aren't as fast as a slaanesh or mounted army but they aren't really slow anymore either.


I don't really see that competing against armies like Tzeentch who have 16" move on disks and an extremely solid melee battleline with run+charge on a base 6' movement. I've always been a proponent of waiting to see how a rule actually plays on the tabletop, though. Things often look better/worse on paper than they end up being on the tabletop (see the cries of 8th ed. 40k being a MSU edition, and Necron Warriors with RP being to most broken thing since leafblower). Pre-orders should be up soon, so we'll be able to see the full warscrolls for the first wave of units! Side note: Looks like the Maggotkin of Nurgle category has been added to the webstore. Currently just has the already-available models.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 18:30:18


Post by: auticus


People don't like armies that have obvious and strong disadvantages.


I agree with your premise as well. One of the main complaints with WHFB I heard for years was that block movement "screwed you over" because if you got out of position you could be out of the game and that was "not fun".

Now I think thats definitely a PART of GW's new boner for making everything so fast. The other is that they actively want armies charging each other in turn 1. Because thats more exciting and "more fun".

Both 40k and AOS feature the strong fast movement to engage in melee by turn 1... which I think is 110% related to people complaining that shooting armies have an advantage so to get rid of that advantage, they let melee engage in turn 1 too.

It wrecks immersion but immersion is no longer a goal of game design as much as it used to be.

Immersion is "not fun".

I don't really see that competing against armies like Tzeentch who have 16" move on disks and an extremely solid melee battleline with run+charge on a base 6' movement.


Well right tzeentch armies are 16" move and are pretty much at the extreme end of mobiility.

But I can move my rotbringers 4" + 2" (wheel) and another 2" for the unit bell and another 3" for the GUO bell so they have an 11" movement base, plus a potential 6" run for a 17" move and then a 2d6" charge on top of that. Potentially with the buffs, blight kings have a 1:6 chance of moving equal to tzeentch 16" discs, a 1:6 chance of moving FASTER than the discs, and a 2:3 chance of moving a bit slower than those.

Thats not very slow IMO. Thats much faster than my chaos dwarf army or even my dark elf army as it stands right now.

People don't like armies that have obvious and strong disadvantages.


I agree with your premise as well. One of the main complaints with WHFB I heard for years was that block movement "screwed you over" because if you got out of position you could be out of the game and that was "not fun".

Now I think thats definitely a PART of GW's new boner for making everything so fast. The other is that they actively want armies charging each other in turn 1. Because thats more exciting and "more fun". Maneuvering and movement phase setting up charges etc, is "not fun" or "not as much fun" as getting right to combat right away and rolling dice. Thats more exciting.

Both 40k and AOS feature the strong fast movement to engage in melee by turn 1... which I think is 110% related to people complaining that shooting armies have an advantage so to get rid of that advantage, they let melee engage in turn 1 too.

It wrecks immersion but immersion is no longer a goal of game design as much as it used to be.

Immersion is "not fun".

I pray that they don't do the same thing with the Middle Earth game.

I play a lot of Kingdom Death as well, and if you follow the forums there is a moderate amount of complaining KDM is not fun either because its too hard and thats not fun. The designer there has opted to keep the game where it is though in difficulty as that was his intent, and it still breaks kickstarter records... so it'll be interesting to see how long the current stretch of gamey game design sticks.

I honestly don't know.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 18:51:05


Post by: EnTyme


 auticus wrote:


I don't really see that competing against armies like Tzeentch who have 16" move on disks and an extremely solid melee battleline with run+charge on a base 6' movement.


Well right tzeentch armies are 16" move and are pretty much at the extreme end of mobiility.

But I can move my rotbringers 4" + 2" (wheel) and another 2" for the unit bell and another 3" for the GUO bell so they have an 11" movement base, plus a potential 6" run for a 17" move and then a 2d6" charge on top of that. Potentially with the buffs, blight kings have a 1:6 chance of moving equal to tzeentch 16" discs, a 1:6 chance of moving FASTER than the discs, and a 2:3 chance of moving a bit slower than those.

Thats not very slow IMO. Thats much faster than my chaos dwarf army or even my dark elf army as it stands right now.



That seems like an awful lot of points to spend to get to that speed, even on an undercosted unit like Blightkings. Far more than what Tzeentch or Slaanesh spends for that same mobility. Rotbringers aren't in the worst spot for mobility, but on paper at least, I feel like they're designed to make a slow but steady march across the battlefield. Again, though, we'll have to see how it actually plays out on the table (and they'll be my next project after finishing my Tzeentch cult). I think they'll be a good army, maybe even very good, but they're not going to be game-changing. Powergamers are still going to be playing the same armies they play today.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 18:56:04


Post by: auticus


The bell comes with the rotbringers, the wheel is free, and the tree is free. The only part of that that requires points is the Great Unclean One, so take that out of the equation and they lose 3" of that movement. Though it should be mentioned the bell is an aura so for the GUO cost, you get all units in his aura able to do these thiings.

For my money I don't think paying for a GUO is too much to grant the speed bonuses but thats subjective.

They aren't going to be a powergamer army simply because they lack the 30" shooting or ability to reliably break the game with mortal wounds.

It will help them get across the table in the first turn so they aren't subjected to a turn of no melee while the power ranged lists draw breath and roll dice on their face though.

They likely aren't going to break the game at a tournament table, but as mentioned above, in a friendly there will need to be restraint, much like beastclaw raider lists right now need to exercise restraint in non powergamer environments.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 19:04:15


Post by: EnTyme


But the wheel changes every turn, so you would need a sorcerer to choose the +movement cycle to get that bonus reliably, though I guess you could use the GUO to do that. I think this is another case where you and I agree on the principle topic, but disagree on the specifics. The bottom line is that I'm not terribly worried about Rotbringers imbalancing the game. There are bigger thing to worry about as far as the balance of AoS is concerned.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 19:11:57


Post by: auticus


Don't forget there is a nurgle spell that lets you pick what cycle the wheel is on and its not hard to roll (I believe it was a 5). But yeah if you are playing in an all competitive min/max group then this won't affect you much.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 19:21:27


Post by: Wayniac


 EnTyme wrote:
But the wheel changes every turn, so you would need a sorcerer to choose the +movement cycle to get that bonus reliably, though I guess you could use the GUO to do that. I think this is another case where you and I agree on the principle topic, but disagree on the specifics. The bottom line is that I'm not terribly worried about Rotbringers imbalancing the game. There are bigger thing to worry about as far as the balance of AoS is concerned.


We are also assuming the power is choose the result, rather than just +/- 1 to the current cycle. IIRC the movement one is #1 on the chart, so if it's not choosing, you have to roll a 1 or a 2 to get the +2" movement, and then keep it on there (which #2 is very good as well as it's add 1 to wounds) the entire game, or else you have to wait for the cycle to come to something you can manipulate.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 20:41:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I like how the argument 'but Tzeentch could beat it' keeps being used like it actually means anything.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 20:50:29


Post by: Galas


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like how the argument 'but Tzeentch could beat it' keeps being used like it actually means anything.


Thats because people always try to balance towards the most OP thing instead of the middle. And then complain about powercreep when they are all claiming for their armies to be able to compete with the most powerfull faction.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 20:52:01


Post by: EnTyme


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like how the argument 'but Tzeentch could beat it' keeps being used like it actually means anything.


It's equally hyperbolic to say "This army has an undercosted unit. This whole book is going to be super powerful now!"


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 21:32:56


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 EnTyme wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like how the argument 'but Tzeentch could beat it' keeps being used like it actually means anything.


It's equally hyperbolic to say "This army has an undercosted unit. This whole book is going to be super powerful now!"
I disagree. If an army is otherwise balanced, one OP unit can still be enough to push it way over the edge. My own tournament list, for example, entirely relies on how OP Stormfiends are. Sylvaneth were made OP in GHB1 just because of Kurnoth Hunters. Bonesplittaz were/are made OP by just a single battalion.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 22:06:18


Post by: KingmanHighborn


Nurgle, the most boring and disgusting of the Chaos Gods...yeah...such a new and interesting faction...woooo.


Come on! Give Slaanesh some good stuff!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 22:49:42


Post by: thekingofkings


 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Nurgle, the most boring and disgusting of the Chaos Gods...yeah...such a new and interesting faction...woooo.


Come on! Give Slaanesh some good stuff!


Slaanesh has been giving out the "good stuff" thats why there are more plagues for nurgle


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/05 23:06:05


Post by: auticus


Typically OP tournament lists that bust the game are centered around one or two busted units and have a book of a dozen or more non played options.

No one complains about arcanite cultists or the birdmen or the shamans in a tzeentch lists. Its the one unit that skews the game across the board, the skyfires.

So if an army has an undercosted unit that is really powerful, it is in my opinion a gateway to making the book OP. It isn't TECHNICALLY true that the whole book is OP, but its that one keystone unit that makes playing against lists that come from that book OP.

IE - beastclaw raiders in their bustedness days weren't OP across the board. Stormcast aren't OP across the board. Tzeentch Arcanite book is not busted across the board.

Its the one or two units that get spammed enmasse by the powergaming community that makes the OP.

Ninth gives a good list as well (sylvaneth are fine but hunters spammed en masse are not fun unless you're also minmax powergaming)

This seems to be merely a threshold difference. We all have different thresholds of tolerance. For some its basically if its not dominating tournaments then its not busted and its fine even if it is still very strong and craps all over casual play because maybe that person doesn't play casually much or any other number of reasons. For others even a slightly strong unit is enough to tip their threshold because they only play casual, so a semi-competitive list is more powerful than they are used to for example)



Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 13:53:45


Post by: Wayniac


TGA has a review of the battletome, with others (Mengel, Facehammer etc.) doing reviews soon as well:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/15551-review-maggotkin-of-nurgle/


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 15:36:22


Post by: auticus


Alas I cannot see anything on the TGA site

I've always been curious how all those guys get books and models a week or two before everyone else.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 15:46:46


Post by: Wayniac


 auticus wrote:
Alas I cannot see anything on the TGA site

I've always been curious how all those guys get books and models a week or two before everyone else.


I assume it's because they advertise GW and talk about it. Mengel is featured on the GW community site. Russ Veal and Facehammer playtested AOS/are friends with the design team. Ben Curry runs TGA so has ties to GW, he's friens with Ben Johnson who is on the design team. Chris Tomlin (guy who did the review) is on one of those podcasts too I think. So basically, it's a UK circlejerk of people who are essentially the unofficial arm of GW, and if what you've said are true most/all of them probably aspire to work for GW, so have working relationships with the GW team. I even refer to TGA as the "unofficial AOS forums". I think it's also a big reason they have that "positivity only" rule; they don't want to hurt their working relationship and keep getting early (presumably free) stuff from GW. Same with a lot of the youtubers who get free stuff to review; they are always positive because they want to keep getting it. You ever notice how almost none of theme ever talk about any issues? it's always "this is the best release from GW yet". Frontline gaming, MWG, Tabletop Tactics, all of them. Never a single negative thing said. I highly doubt they are THAT positive about the game, I think they might legit like a lot of things, but it's too perfect it reads like PR marketing BS. People like us tend to come across as "too negative" but it's really just being realistic and saying that everything is not, in fact, all sunshine and rainbows.

Anyways I grabbed it and put it in the spoiler tag. he didn't review everything yet.

Spoiler:

Part I - Allegiance Abilities

Battle Traits

Cycle of Corruption - We have already seen this from the Blight War book, so no need to go into any further detail at this stage. However, it is worth noting that there are ways within the book to adjust the Cycle mid-game, which is pretty powerful if you find yourself needing the extra move or wanting to pick of a final few wounds from a support character etc. It will be interesting to see two Nurgle armies face off against each other as they use the same cycle, which is pretty cool.

The Garden of Nurgle - Similar to Sylvaneth, after terrain is set up but before you choose territory, you can set up a Feculent Gnarlmaw. As we go through this I will talk more about the Gnarlmaws and their interaction with the army overall. I have to say it is cool seeing GW bring more things like this into the game.

Summon Daemons of Nurgle - This is one of the most interesting parts of the book IMO. All the Daemon scrolls in the book have lost their ability to be summoned as a spell (which has farther reaction implications to Chaos as a Grand Alliance, that's another subject for another time though) and instead you now build up Contagion Points as the game progresses. These are gained for controlling certain areas of the board and having Feculent Gnarlmaws in place, which is really thematic. At the start of your Hero phase you can expend these Contagion Points to summon furth a variety of Nurgle Daemon units (or more Feculent Gnarlmaws). They are placed within 12" of a Hero or Feculent Gnarlmaw and 9" away from enemy units. I suspect you may see players using the initial points to get an extra Gnarlmaw or two on the table. From my initial (and indeed subsequent) reading of this, I see no reason why you would not have to pay reinforcement points to summon Daemons in this fashion. However, with the removal of the summoning spells I do wondering if this is something factored into the army cost and perhaps we will see this ruled as "free" summoning. Seeing which way this falls will really effect the overall power of the army. I do really like this mechanic, seems much more refined than spells.

Command Traits

These are split down into three categories; Rotbringer, Nurgle Daemon and Nurgle Mortal and all have some interesting options. It's worth noting at this stage that there are a lot of named characters in this book, way more than any others so far. This means that there will likely be plenty of times that you don't have a command trait. Very quickly;

Rotbringer
1. Grandfather's Blessing - Once per battle move the Cycle of Contagion.
2. Living Plague - Units within 1" can suffer a mortal wound in your hero phase, and you gain a Contagion point.
3. Hulking Physique - Bonus to wound.
4. Bloated with Corruption - Splash damage back in the combat phase.
5. Avalanche of Rotten Flesh - Boost to run and charge rolls for your general.
6. Resilient - Bonus save vs wounds or mortal wounds.

Some nice choices there and I do think there may be times you will see pure Rotbringer armies with a generic hero as the General. With this being the case you could tailor your selection here around that. I do think being about to move the Cycle onto the extra move for another turn just seems solid though.

Nurgle Daemons
1. As above.
2. As above.
3. As above.
4. Tainted Corruptor - In your hero phase you can taint terrain near your general to have some of the features of a Feculent Gnarlmaw (not the best ones haha!)
5. Nurgling Infestation - Once per game can inflict D3 mortal wounds in the combat phase.
6. Pestilent Breath - 6" ranged weapon that is good vs hordes. Inflicts mortal wounds.

Again, I think I like the ability to move the Cycle. It actually offers quite a lot of utility/versatility against some of the other options here, but as we'll get on to there are other ways to achieve this. Nurgling Infestation is good if you can get your General within 3" of a wounded key piece and finish it off automatically, much like the Kharadron Overlords "no trading with some people" (I think it's called). Pestilent Breath has the potential to do a lot of damage, but is probably too situational. I think there is every chance you'll have a Great Unclean One as your General, so this is a list of options you'll probably be looking at a lot.

Nurgle Mortal
1. As above.
2. As above
3. As above.
4. Hideous Visage - Bravery debuff for enemy.
5. Overpowering Stench - Opponent has to reroll hits of 6 vs your General.
6. Virulent Contagion - Improve Rend by one.

Off the top of my head, I cannot see many lists appearing with a Mortal General. Perhaps a Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount and that being the case, maybe you'd try to build some sort of bravery bomb. But yeh, this is the least exciting for me...though perhaps I'm just being short sighted as the Mortal scrolls aren't in the book!!

Artefacts of Power

As above, these are split down into the same 3 categories. You'll need to take consideration here, as obviously even if you named character as your General you'll still get to pick one of these for one of your other characters.

Rotbringer - Artefacts of Contagion
1. The Splithorn Helm - Bonus save vs wounds or mortal wounds.
2. Muttergrub - Wizards can attempt to case an extra spell. Non-wizards get a spell.
3. Rustfang - In combat phase pick an enemy unit within 3", reduce their armour save by one for rest of the game.
4. Flesh Pealer - Can cause mortal wounds within 6".
5. The Bileheart - Splash damage back in the combat phase.
6. The Fecund Flask - Once per game 2+ heal all wounds, 1 you die!

A couple of these seem to duplicate up one the command traits. Bloated with Corruption and The Bileheart could be entertaining, though it's kind of a shame you can't do it with a Great Unclean One. Rustfang has the potential to be absolutely massive I reckon. Muttergrub is less glamorous, but just solid.

Nurgle Daemons - Daemonic Boons
1. Noxious Nexus - Cause mortal wounds based on the turn number.
2. Nurgle's Nail - If you cause wounds with this weapon, you can roll 2D6 and on a 7 auto kill the model.
3. The Bountiful Swarm - In hero phase can essentially do a Stardrake Cavernous Maw attack. If the model had 4+ wounds you can add a Beast of Nurgle to your army.
4. The Witherstave - Enemies within 12" have to re-roll sixes to hit.
5. Tome of a Thousand Poxes - +1 to cast for a wizard, non wizards get a spell.
6. The Endless Gift - In the battleshock phase the model can heal wounds taken that turn.

Whilst there are some good options here, if you're taking anything other than the Nail you're doing it wrong!! Autokilling models with a splinter of one of Nurgle's toenails, need I say anymore?!

Nurgle Mortals - Plagueridden Gifts
1. The Virulent Blade - +1 damage if you roll 5+ to wound.
2. The Foetid Shroud - Opponents re-roll hits of 6+ in the combat phase.
3. Sublucus' Stenchplate - Enemy units within 3" at the end of their movement phase suffer D3 mortal wounds.
4. The Eye of Nurgle - Once per battle, the nearest model to the bearer dies on a 2D6 roll of 7!
5. The Carrion Dirge - Good bravery debuff to enemies with 12".
6. The Shield of Growths - Reroll saves if the roll is equal to or less than the number of wounds suffered.

Much like the Nail, the Eye is super fun. I do think the Dirge has the option to be really strong though.

Part II - The Lores of Nurgle

As to be expected with any new Battletome, we have some cool new spells here. Firstly, all wizards know the Foul Regenesis spell, which allows you to move the Cycle of Contagion. This is the spell granted by the Muttergrub, so there is plenty of opportunity for this. I feel that this ability is really strong within the army and the easy access to it here is what makes Grandfather's Blessing not an auto pick imo.

There is a separate lore for the 3 branches of Nurgle, which are as follows;

Rotbringer - Lore of Malignance

1. Blades of Putrefaction - Buff. Rolls to hit of 6+ inflict a mortal wound as well as other damage.
2. Rancid Visitations - Unit takes a mortal wound for each model within 3" of the caster.
3. Gift of Contagion - D3 debuff. -1 to hit in combat / -1 to wound in combat / -1 to save

Some great stuff there. Visitations is situational but potentially huge. Gift is great, albeit random. the top option is great if cast against a unit Blightkings are fighting. Blades is an awesome spell for the army, again working well with Blightkings (this won't be the last you hear about that unit!!).

Nurgle Daemons - Lore of Virulence

1. Favoured Poxes - Debuff. -1 to hit, wound and save until caster moves, attempts a spell or dies.
2. Glorious Afflictions - Debuff. 1/2 move, run, charge. Also cannot fly. Good range.
3. Sumptuous Pestilence - Bubble damage. Short range.

Favoured Poxes definitely will have some solid applications, though the downside is potentially an issue. Glorious Afflictions is the pick here. There are so many ways to push your own movement options, so if you can do that whilst holding your opponent back I think you can create some really dominance.

Nurgle Mortals - Lore of Foulness

1. Magnificent Buboes - Arcane Bolt with a slightly better range, also debuffs target until your next hero phase.
2. Plague Squall - Mini Rain of Stars.
3. Cloying Quagmire - If you can roll over the enemies save they take D6 mortal wounds.

All of these are really good just for adding additional ranged mortal wounds. Great reason to include the already powerful Chaos Sorcerer Lord in your lists IMO.

Part III - Warscroll Battalions

Just a quick run down of what they are and what you need for them, with some additional comments;

The Munificent Wanderers - This is one of those bigger Battalions which includes multiple smaller ones. In this case, you'll need two Tallybands and a Great Unclean One and can also add additional units. The benefit is a boost to the Rampant Disease stage of the Cycle of Corruption. Due to cost and requirements, unlikely to see play.

Tallyband of Nurgle - Standard Daemon Battalion, can be made up of a variety of units. Minimum would be 1 Herald and 4 units of Plaguebearers/Drones. Each unit heals a wound in your hero phase, Plaguebearers grow D3 models. Also if you have 7 Plaguebearer/Drone units in the Battalion you gain a contagion point. Definitely possible to make a one drop army from this Battalion, which means it likely to get used.

Thricefold Befoulment - 3 Great Unclean Ones baby!! Who needs to know any more! @The Lost Lighthouse (Gary) has already called shotgun on this though, sorry! . The big boys gain various buffs when they are close to one another, boosting hit & wound rolls, as well as improving the Plague Wind spell. Very cool/fun, will see play for these reasons alone. If I don't see @Ben Johnson running this at some point as well I'll be disappointed.

Nurgle's Menagerie - This is Horticulous' Battalion. He's joined by 3 units of Beasts (could be individuals) and up to 3 other units (Drones, Beasts, Nurglings). So this can be a cheap enough Battalion to field and the benefits are pretty good as you can use Horticulous' Cultivating ability in every hero phase, not just once a game. Can also place the Gnarlmaws within 3" of any unit from the Battalion. There's also a secondary benefit which has a bravery debuff, however the condition for that is hard to meet. People like Horticulous and the benefit here is reasonable, so I think this will see some experimentation, but ultimately will not see much play.

The Blessed Sons - This another of those Battalions that includes other ones. You need a Plague Cyst with maxed out characters and at least 4 units of Blightkings. You can add other units to it to keep it one drop, which is nice. You are immune to battleshock whilst your units are over 7 models, however due to the costs I would expect smaller units of Blightkings. You also get to reroll saves of 1. I'm not sure the cost outweighs the benefits here. Obviously if you're playing a 4,000 point game or something, this is bangin'.

Plague Cyst - This is the Lord of Plague & Friends Battalion. You get to reroll all hits and also can put out extra mortal wounds on a 6+. Rerolls on Blightkings is super juicy, any chance for another crack at those exploding sixes has to be worth consideration. Ultimately though, I think there are better options. This leads me on nicely to...

Blight Cyst - This is the Lord of Blights & Friends Battalion and this is my favourite Battalion! Very cool as you get to hand out the Lord of Blights shooting attack to all Blightking units within 3". Also, in the combat phase, enemies don't get any benefits for cover, which is potentially huge and is the equivalent of rend for the Blightkings, something they would hugely benefit from. Oh, btw, Blightkings also get Rend -1 in this Battalion!!! Fantastic Battalion and a great excuse to add that amazing new Lord of Blights to your army.

Affliction Cyst - This is the Lord of Afflictions & Friends Battalion! So rather than Blightkings, you're packing your army full of their mounted counterparts, the Pusgoyle Blightlords. Note these can also be Batteline if the Lord of Afflictions is your general. The Battalion allows your units to deploy hovering in the sky and drop down with 9" of enemies. Also makes the Lord's command ability affect all Blightlord units instead of one. This is probably one of the coolest Battalions and whilst not the strongest will 100% see play on this factor alone, and rightly so.

Some nice options there. The Tallyband and Blight Cyst are the ones you're probably going to have to look out for. Kind of a shame to not see any including Mortal Nurgle units and also that they ones present are strictly limited to Nurgle Daemons or Rotbringer units (even the two bigger ones) and there is no intermixing of the subfactions.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there for now. Hopefully that will be interesting to some of you guys, please feel free to ask me any questions, though I will not be giving out points or anything like that. Screenshots and such are not allowed on these forums and will be removed.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 15:55:02


Post by: Spiky Norman


 auticus wrote:
Alas I cannot see anything on the TGA site

I've always been curious how all those guys get books and models a week or two before everyone else.

How can you not access the site as a guest like everyone else without an account? I can't believe they try to IP-ban anyone?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 18:28:27


Post by: RedRowan


Wayniac wrote:
TGA has a review of the battletome, with others (Mengel, Facehammer etc.) doing reviews soon as well:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/15551-review-maggotkin-of-nurgle/


Thanks for this link, looks like an interesting read. Pre-ordered a copy of the book and am looking forward to reading through it.

One thing I have noticed, now that Horticulous is available separately, is just how good the Blight War box set is in terms of value. Just working it out earlier I reckon you are basically getting it all for roughly half the price it would be to buy them individually, and that is just on the GW site. You obviously save a lot more through some of the online suppliers.

Steve



Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/07 23:49:58


Post by: auticus


Spiky Norman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Alas I cannot see anything on the TGA site

I've always been curious how all those guys get books and models a week or two before everyone else.

How can you not access the site as a guest like everyone else without an account? I can't believe they try to IP-ban anyone?


I imagine because I have cookies loaded still and it detects who I was attached to. If I clean my system and reset all my passwords, etc it would probably let me look but I haven't done that. Right now if I go to the address I get a "you are banned and forbidden to look at the content of this forum" message. There is no option for me to log out or anything or to access it as a guest.

I highly doubt they are THAT positive about the game

I know that a lot of them aren't THAT positive about the game because in private they will have the discussions that we have in public because I've had the discussions with a few of them in private lol.

Thanks for posting the review here. I'm going to be running these guys at the Gibbering Dome narrative in Adepticon.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 05:13:26


Post by: Clanan


Auticus, what's the point system you've referred to? I'd like to check it out. I'm disappointed with the lack of granularity in the GW points.

(I'm lying - I really just want a system that treats the Glottkin like the superstars they are.)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 07:32:05


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Clanan wrote:
Auticus, what's the point system you've referred to? I'd like to check it out. I'm disappointed with the lack of granularity in the GW points.

(I'm lying - I really just want a system that treats the Glottkin like the superstars they are.)
PPC is what you're looking for (see my sig). The GHB is to AoS as power levels are to 40k--PPC is to AoS what points are to 40k. It isn't perfect but the balance is actually there, rather than whatever the GHB operates on.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 10:30:23


Post by: Hanskrampf


Anyone already got the battletome and can post if Blightkings now have weapon options or are still only visual?

And anyone found a source for the batteltomer cover art without the AoS Logo and the text?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 12:54:55


Post by: Wayniac


Don't have the tome yet (tomorrow) but I've seen leaks. Blightkings don't have weapon options. The Pusgoyle Blightlords (mounted Blightkings) have the option to take a bell weapon.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 13:14:01


Post by: auticus


 Clanan wrote:
Auticus, what's the point system you've referred to? I'd like to check it out. I'm disappointed with the lack of granularity in the GW points.

(I'm lying - I really just want a system that treats the Glottkin like the superstars they are.)


Back in the release of AOS when there were no points a few members of the community created fan-created point systems. There were about a half dozen that were used. I wrote Azyr. However, Azyr did not have granularity as granularity was something I was getting kind of burned out on. It was more like saga's point system where you paid like 3 points for a unit and regular games were 20 points total.

The PPC is the only fan-content point system left as most of us folded once official points were released, but as Ninth pointed out above, it has granularity instead of general points values.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 13:42:50


Post by: Wayniac


Thus far the main concern for me re: Maggotkin is everything is expensive (points-wise) and many things are good. Having a lot of trouble coming up with a list as the points quickly fill up when you want to add one of the great new Battalions. Blight Cyst, for example (the one that gives you a shooting attack for all Blightkings within 3" of the Lord of Blights and gives all Blightkings in the battalion -1 Rend), is 220 points for the Battalion, I believe 140 for the Lord of Blights and then 160/5 for a minimum of 3 Blightkings, so that's a minimum of 840 points for that battalion, basically half of your army, and that's with going min sized Blightking units rather than perhaps units of 10.

Points get eaten up VERY fast in Maggotkin armies, it seems. If using a battalion you will really need to have a plan built around them.

One thing that is disheartening is because of Keywords, Skaven Pestilens benefit a lot from the new book, to the point where I am already seeing people gleefully cackle over using the new Blades of Putrefaction spell with a horde of Plague Monks with dual weapons; so they re-roll 1s, get a massive number of attacks and cause mortal wounds on 6s; I think the average was something like 14 mortal wounds with a unit of 40. It seems we may be seeing "Nurgle Soup" rear its ugly head in AOS with the cheese players.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 15:39:30


Post by: EnTyme


There's a reason battlions are starting to fall out of fashion, Wayniac. For better or worse (mostly better IMO), GHB2017 was pretty heavy-handed in nerfing them. Maggotkin definitely seem like a more elite, low model count army, which seems appropriate for Nurgle in my mind. The Pestilens speculation does seem to be where a lot of tournament players are looking right now, but we'll have to see what actually comes about. Again, things often look good on paper, but fall apart when the dice start rolling. I seem to remember a lot of speculation that Kharadron Overlords were going to be the dominant force when there warscrolls started leaking, but they ended up being in that sweet spot of "good, but not broken." I'm interested to see where the meta goes after this release. Hopefully Maggotkin will be in that same "sweet spot". It sucks not being able to use my favorite army (Tzeentch) in casual games.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 17:32:56


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


 Hanskrampf wrote:
Anyone already got the battletome and can post if Blightkings now have weapon options or are still only visual?

And anyone found a source for the batteltomer cover art without the AoS Logo and the text?
They dont have weapon options to my knowledge.. but the plague drones do have different weapon profiles for the drones with the long trunk and the drones with actual mouths and faces.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/12 22:57:56


Post by: EnTyme


Preorders are up on the NZ site. I take back everything I said about mobility. The Lord of Affliction can buff Pusgoyles to add +8" to their movement if he's your general. Nice.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 00:13:49


Post by: auticus


Yeah low mobility is not a thing anymore with Nurgle. And as they create books I note that mobility in general is not anything anyone has to worry about.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 00:37:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Nurgle still paled in comparison to many other factions though, and has to invest more heavily than others to get that option. It's cool that Nurgle now has faster(ish) options, but that is still making slow units faster rather than just having fast units to begin with. Which I think is entirely appropriate. I suspect that some Nurgle players may go overboard in investing into speed, only to find that it breaks up the solid front line too much to be worth it. Bonuses to charge, in particular, I'm not sure about.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 02:28:26


Post by: EnTyme


Eh, probably just feeds into my "wait until we see it on the table" policy. Curious to see Match Play profiles. Thus far, I don't see any reason to run two Lords of Affliction other than liking the model, but if it was cheap, the option to duplicate those mortal wound abilities might be nice, if somewhat impractical.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 03:06:48


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Yeah, just a theory. Could be totally wrong. (Not sarcasm)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 05:15:52


Post by: Fafnir


Do we know what Rotigus offers over a normal GUO? I've heard that he's supposed to be good, but if you're only running one version of the GUO (and seriously, at that price point, who the hell can even afford more than that?, he'd have to offer a lot to be considered over a regular one with the +3" movement bell.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 05:58:25


Post by: auticus


I have the FW GUO. I also got a creature caster version. I bought a GUO kit that I'm hoping to be able to use some bits and an arm on the creature caster version to have all three variants.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 06:11:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Fafnir wrote:
Do we know what Rotigus offers over a normal GUO? I've heard that he's supposed to be good, but if you're only running one version of the GUO (and seriously, at that price point, who the hell can even afford more than that?, he'd have to offer a lot to be considered over a regular one with the +3" movement bell.
He has a good hero phase AoE ability to do d3 mortals on a 4+, rolling for every enemy unit within 7". His spell is also pretty kickass, mostly because it has unlimited range. His melee profile is also strong with enough attacks to consistently get wounds through every round.

Now is that worth giving up the bell? Nah. The bell is too dam awesome.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 13:40:57


Post by: Kanluwen


I'm impressed by the Pusgoyle Blightlords.

Virulent Discharge: In your hero phase, roll a dice for each unit(friend or foe) that is within 3" of any friendly units with this ability. On a 6+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If the unit has the NURGLE keyword, heal D3 wounds allocated to the unit instead.


Getting them stuck in alongside of a big mess of sturdy Nurgle units means you're potentially healing wounds as well as dishing out Mortal Wounds.

Also loving the change to Beasts. Mobility really doesn't look to be an issue for Nurgle now.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 15:07:12


Post by: nels1031


Thats an ability that Blightkings have always had.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 15:37:17


Post by: Kanluwen


 nels1031 wrote:
Thats an ability that Blightkings have always had.

Hey I don't poke fun at you for being unaware as to how a unit you don't play works!

If it makes you feel better that's an impressive ability to me, no matter the unit that has it.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 16:04:45


Post by: nels1031


Was just pointing out thats its a carry over from Blightkings.

Not poking fun.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 17:21:11


Post by: NinthMusketeer


It is a good ability, and it gets better when you have a bunch of units with it positioned very close to one another.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/13 19:49:39


Post by: Fafnir


The "Hug of Nurgle."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, looking at the book, Harbringer went up a bit, but he already did a lot, the units he helped most went down while getting a buff in durability equivalent to what he already gave on his own, and he gets the benefit of access to every relic available in the book. So that's a pretty fair trade in my book.

Spume also got a similar point increase. With it, he lost his command ability (not that you'd ever use it), and his tentacle porn weapon grabbing ability got nerfed a bit (4+ instead of rolling equal or higher than your opponent). He also became a bit more ambitious thanks to a new targetting restriction. In exchange, he gained a deepstrike ability reminiscent of Wulfrick of old. He'll still be solid for what you pay for, and a damn good bodyguard, but the new cost does make him a touch more prohibitive. I still like what he brings to the table, however.

Blightlords feel like a complete piss-take compared to the Lord of Affliction. For 30 points more per model, you gain +1 wound, a bell, regeneration on every turn, and the ability to inflict mortal wounds every turn. You also get an okay command ability (although you'll still likely get more from the Harbringer). I see no reason not to take multiple Lords of Affliction over Blightlords outside of their specific formation.

Head-tosser looks mediocre, nothing to get too bothered about. For what you pay, he's not really much of a star. The -1/-2 to be hit command ability is nice at first glance, but then you realize that your opponent can just target another unit instead. It might be pretty useful in a pinch, but I tend to like more generalized utility from my command abilities. I'd pass on him.

Lord of Plagues got some significant reworking. Overall, not bad, although there are probably better uses for your points.

The Maggoth Lords didn't really change at all, which isn't very good for them. Bloab is still the best of the three, although his relevance is tested with all the other toys made available.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 17:37:09


Post by: Galas


https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG-Pusgoyle-blightlords.pdf

"A unit of Pusgoyle Blightlords has any number
of models."
So they can be taken in any number of models? Units of 1? Thats good, it solves the problem with using the box to make one hero.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 17:38:50


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Bought in 2s in matched play.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 17:47:43


Post by: Galas


Ouch


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 19:11:43


Post by: Spiky Norman


 Fafnir wrote:
Blightlords feel like a complete piss-take compared to the Lord of Affliction. For 30 points more per model, you gain +1 wound, a bell, regeneration on every turn, and the ability to inflict mortal wounds every turn. You also get an okay command ability (although you'll still likely get more from the Harbringer). I see no reason not to take multiple Lords of Affliction over Blightlords outside of their specific formation.

I cannot make sense of this sentence...?
The Pusgoyle Blightlords are 220 for 2, the Lord of Affliction is 220 for 1. What is this 30 points more per model, you mention?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 19:16:25


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Honestly the Lord of Affliction isn't to specifically run with Pusgoyles, he's a front-line support character for Blightkings. Unlike the Lord of Plagues he isn't going to die from a few arcane bolts or round of shooting and he bubbles out re-roll 1s to hit. The thing to run with Pusgoyles is a GUO or Glottkin for the bonus attacks. You are looking at +3/+4 attacks per model, and they aren't crummy attacks either.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 19:59:17


Post by: Fafnir


Spiky Norman wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
Blightlords feel like a complete piss-take compared to the Lord of Affliction. For 30 points more per model, you gain +1 wound, a bell, regeneration on every turn, and the ability to inflict mortal wounds every turn. You also get an okay command ability (although you'll still likely get more from the Harbringer). I see no reason not to take multiple Lords of Affliction over Blightlords outside of their specific formation.

I cannot make sense of this sentence...?
The Pusgoyle Blightlords are 220 for 2, the Lord of Affliction is 220 for 1. What is this 30 points more per model, you mention?


Oh, nevermind, I was looking at a different point value. Blame it on GW's really stupid naming conventions that make everything sound the same.

EDIT: Well, crap, there goes my competitive list. Looks like a Plaguetouched Warband is not in my future. Not that the new Maggotkin really need it to be effective. Although the Plaguetouched will probably see a point adjustment in GHB2018 anyway, so it's not something worth getting hung up over.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 20:33:00


Post by: NinthMusketeer


They don't, but it is the best battalion available to them simply because it's dramatically undercosted at 100 points and can be filled with Blightkings that are themselves dramatically undercosted.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 21:16:41


Post by: Fafnir


Yup.

I'll also still maintain that the Lord of Affliction is probably better than the Blightlords themselves, even if you're running two of them at their cost. The Hug of Nurgle is bound to get pretty tight (especially since I intend on having a GUO in the middle of it), and being able to ensure everyone gets rerolling 1s to hit in addition to all the other buffs should get a lot easier with access to it from multiple angles in the hug. Moreover, the Lord offers a lot of great abilities on his own that help to justify that extra cost.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/14 22:51:43


Post by: NinthMusketeer


If you are running a GUO general a unit of 4+ Blightlords can be devastating because giving them +1 attack to each of their 3/4 weapon profiles is a massive buff. Couple with a Lord of Affliction to re-roll 1s, and a buff spell or two...


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 02:57:56


Post by: timetowaste85


So, bought the book but made an agreement not to open it until my wife’s Sylvaneth book comes in. Can someone tell me points for blightkings and Gutrot Spume?

Comparison costs to Wrathmongers/Skaar from Blades of Khorne is fine, I can flip that open to do the values. I’m kinda wondering about putting a unit of Nurgle Pirates into my BoK list.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 04:09:34


Post by: NinthMusketeer


160 and 140. Blightkings got an extra wound, Spume got some significant changes to his abilities.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 07:05:04


Post by: Fafnir


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If you are running a GUO general a unit of 4+ Blightlords can be devastating because giving them +1 attack to each of their 3/4 weapon profiles is a massive buff. Couple with a Lord of Affliction to re-roll 1s, and a buff spell or two...


...Yeah, I'm not going to spend that kind of money.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 16:04:57


Post by: Binabik15


Are those Blightlord dudes good to have several units of? I sort of built their hero on accident a few months back when I built my SC Daemons of Nurgle. For some reason a Nurgle Knight on a fly/pegasus hybrid with two unridden flies as "hunting dogs" seemed to be a good idea

Now if I were to buy a box of the Blightlords and Blight Wars and a few Maggoth Lord bits I'd have the converted hero, two converted flies without riders I could put dudes on, two original Blightlords and three more flies to convert into two more and another hero/three more. The first trio would be painted differently and lack scythes, so a blob unit would look off, hence my question.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 16:21:20


Post by: auticus


My list has six pusgoyles with the character. To fill in the miissing model (since if I buy 3 boxes I'm getting six total and one is the character) I'm goiing to use one of my plague bearer drones.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 18:38:22


Post by: timetowaste85


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
160 and 140. Blightkings got an extra wound, Spume got some significant changes to his abilities.


If the warscroll is accurate on the app, he lets me drop a unit of blight-kings within 6" of him, and 9" from enemies at the first movement phase, from any board edge. That's exactly what I'm aiming for. If his rules changed FROM that, and the scroll is inaccurate, then that kind of sucks.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 19:04:27


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Those are the up to date rules, which is good because he has a defined role in the army now.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 19:45:03


Post by: Wayniac


He is good. A lot of things are good, this army is going to be one where you have to specialize in a particular thing and build around it, because there is not enough points to take everything good.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 20:51:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Well there's a lot of stuff that is reasonably costed for it's performance. I'm actually pleasantly surprised about that. There are a couple things that are way out of line though, and building around those easily hits tourney-cheese level. If anything I find it confusing because if GW was trying to point things to sell models the points would look different than they do, whereas if GW had no idea how to cost things there wouldn't be so much of it on-point. It makes me wonder if different people determined the points for different groups if units.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 21:03:12


Post by: timetowaste85


If that's his role, then that's EXACTLY what I want him for! Score! Thanks guys; I'm gonna be hated at my local "friendly" tables!


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 22:40:46


Post by: NinthMusketeer


For players interested in running a friendly Nurgle list I'd say don't run more than one GUO and don't run more than 5 Blightkings and things should work out.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 22:44:43


Post by: EnTyme


Who could afford more than one GUO?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 23:00:39


Post by: timetowaste85


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
For players interested in running a friendly Nurgle list I'd say don't run more than one GUO and don't run more than 5 Blightkings and things should work out.


Oh, my "friendly" Blades of Khorne list at 2500 has Gutrot and 10 blightkings coming in from a table-edge right in my opponent's lap. Am I being an ass?


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/15 23:34:20


Post by: auticus


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well there's a lot of stuff that is reasonably costed for it's performance. I'm actually pleasantly surprised about that. There are a couple things that are way out of line though, and building around those easily hits tourney-cheese level. If anything I find it confusing because if GW was trying to point things to sell models the points would look different than they do, whereas if GW had no idea how to cost things there wouldn't be so much of it on-point. It makes me wonder if different people determined the points for different groups if units.


I strongly feel that they do this on purpose. I've heard Phil Kelly at games days talk about this type of game design. The Blood Bowl guys say the same thing. That some things should be "harder" and some things "easier" to accommodate all players (as those that want a challenge will play the harder and those that want easy mode will gravitate toward that and thats fine). The problem is if thats true, that typically as we know rarely works out very well.

I've got three GUO. My for fun games will only have one. And I usually always take a mix of things from the book instead of min/maxing on a certain aspect unless I'm going to a waac environment like a tournament, in which case the point of playing IS to outcheese my opponent and win before the first die is cast.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 00:02:24


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 EnTyme wrote:
Who could afford more than one GUO?
People who already had a FW one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well there's a lot of stuff that is reasonably costed for it's performance. I'm actually pleasantly surprised about that. There are a couple things that are way out of line though, and building around those easily hits tourney-cheese level. If anything I find it confusing because if GW was trying to point things to sell models the points would look different than they do, whereas if GW had no idea how to cost things there wouldn't be so much of it on-point. It makes me wonder if different people determined the points for different groups if units.


I strongly feel that they do this on purpose. I've heard Phil Kelly at games days talk about this type of game design. The Blood Bowl guys say the same thing. That some things should be "harder" and some things "easier" to accommodate all players (as those that want a challenge will play the harder and those that want easy mode will gravitate toward that and thats fine). The problem is if thats true, that typically as we know rarely works out very well.
Huh. That seems like some insane logic to me, but if it works for sales it works I guess.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 00:52:57


Post by: Wayniac


 auticus wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well there's a lot of stuff that is reasonably costed for it's performance. I'm actually pleasantly surprised about that. There are a couple things that are way out of line though, and building around those easily hits tourney-cheese level. If anything I find it confusing because if GW was trying to point things to sell models the points would look different than they do, whereas if GW had no idea how to cost things there wouldn't be so much of it on-point. It makes me wonder if different people determined the points for different groups if units.


I strongly feel that they do this on purpose. I've heard Phil Kelly at games days talk about this type of game design. The Blood Bowl guys say the same thing. That some things should be "harder" and some things "easier" to accommodate all players (as those that want a challenge will play the harder and those that want easy mode will gravitate toward that and thats fine). The problem is if thats true, that typically as we know rarely works out very well.

I've got three GUO. My for fun games will only have one. And I usually always take a mix of things from the book instead of min/maxing on a certain aspect unless I'm going to a waac environment like a tournament, in which case the point of playing IS to outcheese my opponent and win before the first die is cast.


I have heard that logic from Blood Bowl, but I hope they were not stupid enough to try to apply it to the real game. Blood Bowl they could make get away with Chaos being easier to play than Goblins. But in the real game that logic would fall flat on its head because you'd have most people playing the "easy mode" and pretending they're good at the game.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 01:39:12


Post by: auticus


Well think about it. For a couple decades now there has always been a couple of factions that were easy mode. Just like in blood bowl.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 01:40:41


Post by: Galas


BloodBowl has always been a much more "casual" game than proper warhammer. You have teams like Goblins or Halflings that everyone knows aren't there to be really "competitive" but to be "joke" teams.
But apart from those teams, the rest are, or at least they try, to make them balanced. Yeah you had factions like Humans or Orcs that where much more easy to play, but they weren't really more powerfull than others.

In Warhammer you don't have "joke" factions (Some people arguee that Orks in w40k are a joke faction and thats why they suck... I don't believe thats the reason. I think is because GW can't make them balanced and as random as they want orks to be)


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 02:11:56


Post by: Fafnir


But just because a faction is meant to be funny doesn't mean that they have to be bad. Plenty of factions and characters in games are built around humorous concepts while being competently developed. There's no reason why these factions need to be weak outside of laziness on the developers' part.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 02:30:12


Post by: auticus


ehhh... in blood bowl dwarves, orcs, and teams like amazons have huge advantages at the rookie level. Teams like ogres and vampires are generally horrible. The rest fall in the middle.

In 5th edition WHFB, orcs were the joke army. The power armies in 5th edition were high elves, vampire counts, and chaos.

Every edition of both 40k and whfb have had 2-3 power armies that could squash any of the other armies when you min/maxed with them.

So I see blood bowl, with its 3 or so power teams, I see WHFB over twenty years with its 2-3 power armies each edition, and I see wh40k over twenty years with its 2-3 power armies, and I combine that with several articles or personal interviews with developers at various conventions where they say this is intentional and I can't quite get over that the pattern is exactly the same. (lets recall our friend Matt Ward and his demons that destroyed 7th edition and he said point blank "well yeah demons are OP they are supposed to be OP")

And also as a games designer I know that that is something that many designers put into their games (easy mode) because otherwise they lose sales. A lot of sales. You wouldn't believe how many sales. Players in general do not like difficult games. The difficult games are seen as niche games.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 02:32:08


Post by: NinthMusketeer


There may not be joke factions but sometimes I feel like balance is treated like a joke. Having an assessment of a unit be off is one thing, but when high-school level math tells you that certain units or point costs are wildly off it should be pretty clear. For example, the massive unit discount on units with size-scaling bonuses. Or in the maggotkin instance, Blightkings. Compare to something like the GUO, which I also feel is overpowered but could at least see someone thinking the value they have makes sense.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 02:36:07


Post by: Fafnir


At least with the GUO, you have to make some pretty sizeable offensive sacrifices to get the best utility out of him. Bargain that he is, especially with that ridiculous +3" movement bubble, he's really well designed on a fundamental level.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/16 20:16:27


Post by: Hulksmash


Blight kings just make me so sad for my Iron jaw brutes. Cost 1/9 less, faster (unless I bump points for a battalion which is even worse), and 33% more wounds. Fairly equal dam age output though it may go to the blight kings by a small margin, certainly higher potential. Sad me


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/19 05:44:31


Post by: Thenord


 Hulksmash wrote:
Blight kings just make me so sad for my Iron jaw brutes. Cost 1/9 less, faster (unless I bump points for a battalion which is even worse), and 33% more wounds. Fairly equal dam age output though it may go to the blight kings by a small margin, certainly higher potential. Sad me


Really depends on what they're up against. 4+ wounds models or units with an armor save. Brutes>blightkings. But I agree, they've become much much Better now than they were Before..


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/19 12:49:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Thenord wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:
Blight kings just make me so sad for my Iron jaw brutes. Cost 1/9 less, faster (unless I bump points for a battalion which is even worse), and 33% more wounds. Fairly equal dam age output though it may go to the blight kings by a small margin, certainly higher potential. Sad me


Really depends on what they're up against. 4+ wounds models or units with an armor save. Brutes>blightkings. But I agree, they've become much much Better now than they were Before..
Brutes also have two less bravery (losing even a single model they can fail battleshock while Blightkings need three) and blightkings have virulent discharge. 15 wounds vs 21, no bonus to run/charge...

But really, blightkings ARE 4+ wounds with a 4+ save, so pitting equal points against each other brutes should come out on top since their stats make them a hard counter. That's not even close to what happens.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/20 10:30:00


Post by: Binabik15


Why are the Chaos chariot rules on the webstore but not the Gorebeast ones :| I can't find them online, either. I don't really want to download the app, my tablet is almost completely full.

So, without rules in front of me, how does a Nurgle pirates list/sub-list with Gutrot, his elite bossun BKs (for outflanking), some Nurgle chaos warriors, some Nurgle (gorebeast?) chariots and a warshrine-turned-landing-boat-with-assault ramps sound? Maybe some Marauders, rotflies, Pusgoyles or whatever, too.

The fluff blurb in Maggotkin about Gutrot's reavers had me imagine heavily armoured warriors landing with floating/sailing boats somewhere, jump down, drop ramps that chariots thunder down to rush or outflank defenders and then swarm the survivors. It doesn't have to be very strong, but it should kinda work together instead of hindering itself And I'd only need a Harbingers of Chaos/SC Slaves box to add to my existing stuff to run it...okay, a shrine, too.

PS: While searching for rules I stumbled over the Warriors of Chaos pdf from way back. "Use you Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon as a Chaos Lord on Manticore". Feth you GW I want my DRAGON back Stuff existing before AoS is still in a bad place, huh.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/20 20:31:19


Post by: Fafnir


If you've got a GUO with a bell and a conveniently planted tree, your Blightkings can net an average charge distance of 19.5". Spume's deepstrike just feels completely unnecessary when you can just rush up like that with your entire army.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/21 10:23:31


Post by: Fafnir


Just want to talk about the new Blightlords box. Gorgeous kit, but once again, GW really dropped the ball with the customization options. All the bits in the world aren't worth a thing if you make it so each part only fits with a specific body type. It's even worse than it was for the Blightkings, who usually at least had 2 or three different head, weapon, and body type options that could be switched around. The Blightlords mostly just have the ability to fit one or two different head types on each torso, and that's about it.

Thankfully, it looks like with a little bit of greenstuff, hacking, and bravery, I'll be able to convert some of those spare parts to be great looking alternate upper bodies for some Blightkings, but I'm really disappointed with how little variance you get in spite of the massive glut of parts available.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/21 13:31:12


Post by: Wayniac


 Fafnir wrote:
Just want to talk about the new Blightlords box. Gorgeous kit, but once again, GW really dropped the ball with the customization options. All the bits in the world aren't worth a thing if you make it so each part only fits with a specific body type. It's even worse than it was for the Blightkings, who usually at least had 2 or three different head, weapon, and body type options that could be switched around. The Blightlords mostly just have the ability to fit one or two different head types on each torso, and that's about it.

Thankfully, it looks like with a little bit of greenstuff, hacking, and bravery, I'll be able to convert some of those spare parts to be great looking alternate upper bodies for some Blightkings, but I'm really disappointed with how little variance you get in spite of the massive glut of parts available.


Seems par for the course then. Customization options keep getting removed.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/21 16:13:44


Post by: Binabik15


Between Death Guard and Blightlords I'm certain that the Blight Kings box won't be topped for a long time, maybe ever, when it comes to the mulptipart monopose multi-build models or whatever one should call it. The way they look so different with heads looking in different directions and fronts making them lightly or heavily armoured is brilliant. And outside two loadouts all Blight Kings look amazing, personally. Neither Plague Marines, Termis nor those come close to the Kings. I guess that's why they're roality And back in the day *I* was accused of being down on the BKs for not enough posing options. I guess my precision saw was a wise investment considering GW's new kits

Are the bits a good match for BKs size-wise? From sprue pics it looks like less resculpting is needed to swap torsi compared to the maggoth lords.


Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction @ 2018/01/21 16:20:27


Post by: Fafnir


They're pretty close. The bellies on the Blightlords look like they're a touch bigger (might just be the sitting pose), but otherwise, they're a pretty good fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Planning a 1500 point list for a tourney a few months from now. Currently stuck between two options, and I wouldn't mind a little input.

List 1 (1500 points) :

Harbringer of Decay (general)
Great Unclean One - bell and flail
Gutrot Spume
Lord of Afflictions
Blightkings*5
Blightkings*5
Blightkings*5
Blightkings*5

List 2 (1420 points)

Harbringer of Decay (general)
Great Unclean One - bell and flail
Lord of Afflictions
Pusgoyle Blightlords*2
Blightkings*5
Blightkings*5
Blightkings*5

They should function pretty similarly, but list two drops Spume and a unit of blightkings for a unit of lords and 80 points to fill instead. Both lists have their perks, but I'm really not sure which one to go with (I'm also open to suggestions for modifying either one).