We’ve seen codexes for the Adeptus Astartes (both loyal and traitor), and the xenos, and next year, some of the 41st Millennium’s most terrifying inhabitants will be joining the fray.
The Daemon hordes may be innumerable, but they’re certainly not faceless; the legions of each god are rich in character and follow their own arcane patterns of organisation, utilising unique tactics on the battlefield. The new Codex: Chaos Daemons is designed to balance the terrifying spectacle of a diverse horde of Daemons tearing into realspace with rules that properly reflect the personalities of each Chaos God and how their armies go to war.
To this end, Chaos Daemons forces possess a new kind of detachment-wide special rule that falls somewhere between codexes with a single faction (like the Death Guard) and multi-faction codexes (like the Space Marines). When taking a pure Daemons of Chaos detachment, you’ll be rewarded with Warlord Traits, Stratagems, psychic powers, scoring priority on your Troops choices and so on. Focus yourself further, however, and commit yourself to a specific Dark God, and you’ll receive special rewards in the form of Daemonic Loci. Daemonic Loci are powerful aura abilities gained by the Characters in your army. Excitingly, unlike previous editions, these Loci affect every single Daemon unit in your detachment, including your Greater Daemons! For today’s preview, we’ll be taking a look at what each Chaos God can expect to see.
The Locus of Rage is one of the simplest in the Daemons codex, but it’s doubtless very effective – after all, the last thing you want when playing a Khornate force is to miss a key charge!
Whether you’re looking to engage your enemy with an overwhelming horde of Bloodletters, or just ensure that Skarbrand gets into combat as quickly impossible, this locus makes pure assault armies very viable indeed.
<-- lol get outa here Thousand Sons
The Locus of Trickery is an appropriately devious ability that can, with a lucky roll, make your units much harder to hit:
In practice, as long as you don’t roll a 1, you’ll find yourself ignoring a healthy portion of hit rolls, helping everything from Brimstone Horrors to Lords of Change survive an enemy onslaught.
The Locus of Virulence provides some very helpful offensive bonuses to your Nurgle armies:
Traditionally, Nurgle Daemons are tremendously durable, but units like Plaguebearers can lack a little offensive punch. With this Locus, you’ll be a lot deadlier in melee, particularly against larger creatures, vehicles and elite infantry like Primaris Space Marines and Terminators.
Nurgle armies are particularly well-served by the new codex thanks to a host of new units, from new Heralds to the debut of Horticulous Slimux in the 41st Millennium – check some of them out in our 7 Days of Nurgle previews.
Slaanesh’s Locus of Swiftness provides a natural counterpoint to Khorne’s by allowing you to advance and charge, letting you close the distance between you and the enemy with horrifying speed.
This is particularly deadly on a unit of Seekers (who have bonuses to their advance and charge rolls) or even just Daemonettes, allowing you to tie up a ranged army in melee early on.
That’s just a hint of what you’ll find in Codex: Chaos Daemons – we’ll have some detailed previews for each individual Chaos God in the new year for you to check out. In the meantime, follow along with our Nurgle previews and let us know what you’re most excited about on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page!
Codex Leaks from xxhikaru123Made (Some confirmed) updated 3/1:
Spoiler:
Daemons are still 5++.
god specific traits are the same.
Do note that most attacks even shooting are Strength User, so +strength buffs actually are worth something now.
+ Undivided +
Belakor - has access to Dark Hereticus (the only one who does)
Stratagems:
We get a deepstrike strategem:
Use this strategem during deployment. If you spend 1 CP to set up one of your Daemon units that has a Power Rating of 8 or less in the warp instead of placing it on the battlefield. If you spend 2 CP, you can choose a Daemon unit that has a Power Rating of 9 or more instead. At the end of any of your movement phase that unit can tear its way into reality - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from enemy models.
you cannot reroll saving throws but it gives a daemon unit +1 to invulnerable saves. No better than 3++.
when enemy psyker suffers perils of the warp, use this strategem, they take 2d3 MW instead of 1d3.
+ Khorne +
Skull Cannon Heavy D6 48" S8 -2 D3
47 pt drop
Soul Grinder
Phlegm Bombardment D6 instead of D3.
Bloodthirsters no change to pt
Insensate Rage BT have two attack profiles now. Second (new) S:U -2 1 dmg , make 2 hit roll instead of 1 if use this attack.
All BTs get a rule that for each unmodded hit roll of 6, they score a 2nd free hit.
Stratagems:
1CP Khorne. pick a banner, that unit charges 3D6 instead of 2D6.
Artifacts:
Khorne: (Mons only) - 4++ Deny 1 power in each enemy psychic phase.
Khorne: 1 model. Each time you make wound roll of 6+ fr friendly khorne daemon unit within 6" of bearer, can make another free attack.
+ Tzeentch +
LOC/Kairos drop 20-35.
Brimstone horrors are 6++, blues are 5++, pinks are 4++.
Changeling lost -1 to hit for 6+++ FNP.
Flamers are 12" range now
Exalted are 3 shots instead of D3.
Anything with screamers lost slashing talon but their attacks became Lamprey bite.
Eg. 2 slashing attacks 1 bite? now 3 bites.
Warlord Trait:
reroll 1s to wound in 9".
New Powers:
Tz:
WC6. Reroll a single dice roll later during ur turn.
WC5. Pick friendly tz daemon unit within 18". Until next psychic phase, +1 to wound roll.
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+.
Stratagems:
2CP Tz Strat. pick a char, 6" aura of reroll psychic test.
Artifacts:
Tz: 1 additional TZ power
Tz: +1 to smite cast
+ Nurgle +
GUO
WS2 BS3 S7 T7 18W 5A
Armed with Plague Flail & Bilesword
Plague Flail 7" Assault 3 S User AP-3 2 Dmg. Can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit and can target enemy unit within 1" of friendly unit. Excess damage is not lost, spillsover.
Bileblade Strength User AP-3 D3 Dmg . Reroll Failed Wounds.
Bilesword Strength +1 AP-3 D6Dmg. Reroll Failed Wounds.
Doomsday Bell. Str +1 AP-1 D3 Dmg.
Cast 2 Powers . Deny 1 Powers. Knows smite and 2 from Nurgle Discipline.
May Replace bilesword with doomsday bell.
May replace plague flail with bileblade.
Putrid Offering (bileblade): Suffer 1 Wound (Can be FNP) , add 1 to a psychic test before rolling .
Reverberating Summons (doomsday bell): Can summon on 4D6 instead of 3D6. At start of your turn, Roll D6 for every Nurgle Daemon unit within 7" of a GUO with Doomsday Bell, on a 4+ return a single slain model to that unit.
Crushing Bulk: Roll D6 at end of charge, on a 4+ do 1 MW to an enemy unit within 1".
Greater Daemon: Friendly Nurgle Daemon unit within 6" can use GUO's Ld (10) instead of their own.
Just over 300+ points.
Rotigus
7" 2+ 3+ S7 T7 18W 5A
Streams of brackish filth 7" Assault 2D6 User -3 1 Reroll Failed Wounds.
Fanged Maw Strength User -1 1 Can make Additional D6 attacks with this weapon , each time he fits.
Gnarlrod Strength +2 -2 3 Reroll Failed Wounds
Nurgling Attacks
Deludge of Nurgle: Each successful psychic cast of 7 or more , closest enemy unit suffers 1 MW after power resolved.
Crushing Bulk: Same as GUO Greater Daemon: Same as GUO.
Knows Smite & 3 powers from Nurgle. Cast and deny 2 powers.
Low 300s.
Horty WS2. T6 7 wounds ( i think). 4A.. 4+
melee S+1 -3 D3 reroll fail wounds
1 time use attack S7 -4 3 dmg
D6 , 4+ D3 mw if you fallback from him (1inch bubble).
reroll fail charge for beasts in 6 inch. add 1 to hit for beasts.
start of turn, if any model friend or foe slain during last turn. 1 nurgle daemon model within 7 inch of mr snail gains 1 lost wound.
ends of movement phase, plant a tree but forgo daemonic ritual. set up within 3 inch of him but 1 inch away from any other model or terrain feature.
New nurgle herald. Spoilpox
5" 2+ 2+ S5 T5 4W 3A
6" pistol D3 3 AP0 1
Maw S user -1 1 reroll wounds of 1
PlagueSword S User AP0 1 , reroll all wounds roll
Ability 1 : Add 2" mov to plaguebearer infantry
Ability 2: Add 1 to hit roll of PBs within 6". On a hit roll of 7+ for a PB within 6" of a model with this ability, you can make one additional attack. Does not generate more.
Beast of Nurgle are 5 Wounds now , and if you try to Fall Back from them (1"), on a 4+, you do a MW.
Plague drones drop 10 each.
Great Unclean One
7" WS2+ BS3+
New powers:
Nurgle:
Wc7. Roll D6 for every unit (excluding nurgle) within 7" of caster. 4+ D3 MW.
WC6. Pick enemy unit visible within 18". -1 Toughness.
WC6 Miasma of Pestilence same as DG contagion but targets Nurgle Daemon.
Stratagems:
1CP Nurgle. pick a unit with an icon before battle. during 1 fight phase. dmg characteristtics of a plaguesword carried by that unit increased to 2
Artifacts:
Nurgle: everytime bearer kills a model in fight phase while within 7' of a plaguebearer unit , on a 4+, add a PB to that unit.
+ Slaanesh +
Masque weapon is -2 2 dmg instead of -1 1
Herald of Slaanesh is 2 dmg instead of 1
Seekers' Unholy Speed went from Advance & Charge to reroll charge.
All their points same except exalted seeker up by 8 pt.
Slaanesh appears to have lost all the other heralds on exalted chariots etc
New powers:
Slaanesh:
WC5. Select friendly slaanhesh daemon within 18". 6+++ FnP WC6. select enemy unit within 18 visible. Roll d6 for every model in that enemy unit. on a 6, 1 mw.
WC6. All enenmy unit -1 ld within 12 inch of psyker.
Stratagems:
1CP Slaanesh. pick slaanesh daemon unit, all units within 3inch of that -1Attack for that phase. (To a minimum of 1.)
Artifacts:
Slaanesh: 1x per game, start of phase, select enemy char within 12" roll 3d6, if exceed enemy char ld, it cannot do anything, and its abilities dont affect anything.
Khorne Faction Focus
Spoiler:
Darkness is sweeping the 41st Millennium, and the mortal hordes of the Heretic Astartes are bolstered by legions of daemonic allies. Thanks to the Great Rift, the servants of the Chaos Gods have been pouring forth to devour reality in ever-greater numbers across the galaxy – so it’s about time they got a codex of their own! Codex: Chaos Daemons brings a raft of new ways to customise and play your Daemons army, offering particular rewards for those players who dedicate themselves to a single Chaos God.
While we’ve taken a look at the codex as a whole, this week, we’ll be looking into what each specific Chaos God can bring to the tabletop, starting with the Blood God, Khorne:
We’ve already looked at the Khornate Daemonic Locus, the aptly-named Locus of Rage, but it’s worth reiterating just how handy this ability is. Whether you’re looking to insert a deadly block of Bloodletters into the enemy frontlines, or you’ve got a tricky charge to make with a Bloodthirster, this helps you get your Daemons where they need to be as soon as possible.
Khorne armies also have some powerful artefacts on hand, ranging from deadly weaponry to some essential utility items. One particularly useful option is the Armour of Scorn; as well as upgrading the invulnerable save of a key Character, it’ll also help shore up your psychic defences against any cowards that dare use magic against a servant of the God of Murder!
Skullreaver, meanwhile, is quite possibly one of the deadliest weapons in the entire game. In the hands of a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, you’ll be able to carve through powerful Characters (even Daemon Primarchs of rival Chaos Gods) and enemy super-heavies with brutal efficiency.
Indeed, Greater Daemons of Khorne – or any Chaos God – have received a significant improvement in the new codex thanks to 24 (yes, 24!) Warlord Traits. For Khorne, you won’t want to overlook Oblivious to Pain, which provides an additional save against wounds, as well as forcing any enemy shooting at you to risk supercharging your favourite Character in the next turn:
Khorne Daemons may not be subtle, but they’re undeniably effective, whether you’re looking to dominate the battlefield with swarms of elite combat infantry or to grind skulls beneath the hooves of larger Daemons. You can pre-order your Chaos Daemons codex this weekend, while Start Collecting! Daemons of Khorne contains a great selection of models for you to get a headstart with.
Warlord Traits
Spoiler:
Slaanesh
1. 3" To M
2. Reroll fail hit and wound against Char.
3. If warlord charges, add D3 to Attacks until end of ensuing fight phases. (roll D3 after charge)
4. Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ in fight phase. Suffers an additional MW.
5. Add 1 to warlord Attack characteristics.
6. Enemy model -1 attack (min 1) within 6" of your warlord. Does not affect vehicles.
Khorne
1. Each time an enemy unit fails morale within 8" of your warlord, that unit loses 1 additional model.
2. Add 1 to warlord Attack characteristics, if there are more enemy models within 8" of it than friendly models.
3. 6+++ FnP. if you pass the 6+++ FnP, you can reroll all failed hits and wounds until end of your next turn. ( )
4. +1 warlord Strength
5. Each time ur warlord fights, can make a single attack instead of normal cc attack. Make a single hit roll, if successful, target suffers D3MW.
6. Reroll hits of 1 for friendly Khorne Daemon units that charged this turn and are within 8" of your Warlord when they fight ( )
Tzeentch
1. Add 1 to result of 1st psychic test taken by your warlord.
2. reduce all dmg by 1 (min1 to warlord)
3. reroll failed morale test for friendly tz daemons within 9 of warlord.
4. add 6" to range of first psychic power casted by warlord
5. roll d6, 2+ ignore perils of warp.
6. Reroll wounds rolls of 1 by tzeentch daemons for shooting phase, within 9" of warlord.
Nurgle
1. +1 Wound
2. Each time warlord lose Wound in fight phase. 4+ , unit that caused that wound to the warlord , suffers a MW.
3. Your opponent must subtract -1 from all hit roll that target warlord if attacking unit within 7"
4. Add 1 to all wound roll made by warlord in the fight phase unless target vehicle.
5. Warlord got a 4+ save.
6. Roll a dice for each enemy within 1" of warlord at start of your turn. On a 4+, that unit suffers a MW.
GW has shown that they are obviously gonna do plastic versions of all Greater Demons and upgrade ranges for all Chaos Gods... people keep complaining about Slaanesh... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
One of the great problems that I have always seen in the armies of Demons of Chaos is that all the gods have equivalent units that often step on each other and have anti-synergies.
It's basically like playing with several mini armies at the same time. But if 8th has taught us something, is ... Why settle for a single faction when you can have several, with the best of each?
The Bloodthirsters and the Plague Bearers are, point by point, of the most mathematically powerfull units in the game. They have incredible stats that should be busted at 7-8 ppm. But of course, that cost is justified in the context of his faction. They totally lack ranged attacks, are relatively slow, and totally lack means of transport.
So we'll see, if the Codex gives enough movement tools for the Bloodletters, for example, as reliable Deepstrike the Bloodbomb of AoS may end up at 40k.
My wife plays Daemons and I'm so damn excited to be able to hand her a new book and daemons to paint and play. Hope this codex makes them semi-comp so that we can see some real armies on the board again.
I'm already loving the idea of a nurgle herald next to death guard demon engines like the PBC and Bloat drones for crazy damage since it doesn't specify a phase.
Not much of a fan of Deamons, but... Locus of Trickery seems the least valuable. I imagine most armies miss a majority of the time on 1-3 already, choosing the lowest of two dice that miss on would only be significant if both came up a 4 or higher. It’ll only be of any real value against those enemy models with a 2+ to hit.
I’m also assuming these “Loci” abilities do NOT come within any point adjustmnts (as has been the practice with every codex) and we can still expect to see across the board points reductions? So, as always,, make each army better AND CHEAPER? Great job, GW.
IMO Slaanesh and Tzeentch have always been in an odd spot. The other two gods have always had better looking models associated with them - ones that are easier to paint too. Tzeentch has come a long way and I believe Slaanesh can too. If GW were to make the Fiend of Slaanesh really over the top and big, similar to the AoS Gryph-charger... Actually, come to think about, using those Gryph-charger's for Tzeentch would be super badass. But back on topic, if GW were to make the Fiend of Slaanesh really over the top and big, similar to the AoS Gryph-charger I think it would help.
Yeah a nurglekin army is seeming more and more viable. Just from these pics I am thinking of the Nurgle Loci and Nurgle Obliterators to bang up the tally with epidemus or a bunch of plague drones backed by a dg daemon prince with arch-contaminator trait and a daemons prince for healing them up and the loci. I am hoping for some type of defensive buff for nugle daemons to use on Mortarion, like the csm grandfathers blessing that would heal a nurgle daemon d3 wounds.
I am digging that icon... and I find it of note that the Slaaneshi portion is not only present, but also shows a design direction not present on the daemonettes... I have a bit of faith we may in fact end up seeing new models for them this year.
Another good combo is a alpha Legion demon Prince with wings, claws, and elixer with a slaanesh herald on a steed with some seekers. All can advance and charge and the DP gives re-rolls. Near guaranteed first turn tie up.
buddha wrote: Another good combo is a alpha Legion demon Prince with wings, claws, and elixer with a slaanesh herald on a steed with some seekers. All can advance and charge and the DP gives re-rolls. Near guaranteed first turn tie up.
I'm liking the idea of using Mauler fiends with a slaanesh herald on steed/chariot as an escort to give them that extra bit of movement.
I wouldn't get too excited about combining the Daemonic Loci with Heretic Astartes units just yet. If the article is accurate (yes, a bit of a big ask for a Warhammer Community article), Daemonic Loci only work with units in your detachment, not just any Daemon unit for the proper Chaos God.
Personally I'm sad that they kicked the "Daemonic Animosity" stuff to the side and ruined the lore/fluff. Daemons are already lacking in depth, this ret-con doesn't help.
Elbows wrote: Personally I'm sad that they kicked the "Daemonic Animosity" stuff to the side and ruined the lore/fluff. Daemons are already lacking in depth, this ret-con doesn't help.
There has been no drawback for taking mixed daemon armies since 4th/5th edition. This is hardly a recent change.
1. The whole ‘2s3xy4u’ thing was don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n Always has been, always will be.
2. Whilst cold comfort to 40k players, AoS is very much a narrative driven background. Those armies being introduced are done so according to background. So Slaanesh is coming.
3. You think others had it good? Prince/ss Of Excess whilll get its turn!
Elbows wrote: Personally I'm sad that they kicked the "Daemonic Animosity" stuff to the side and ruined the lore/fluff. Daemons are already lacking in depth, this ret-con doesn't help.
Since they where split in fantasy 6th edition with their own codex, they haven't had anything like that.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah let's take complaining about models to a general discussion thread.
These new Locus look like they potentially bleed into Chaos Space Marine Deamon units, which will make taking a detachment of each much easier to do.
Unless they add a Faction Keyword for the Demon codex, you might not even have to take a Detachment of each. A Plagueburst Crawler is as much a Nurgle Demon as a Plaguebearer is.
The Bloodthirsters and the Plague Bearers are, point by point, of the most mathematically powerfull units in the game. They have incredible stats that should be busted at 7-8 ppm.
Elbows wrote: Personally I'm sad that they kicked the "Daemonic Animosity" stuff to the side and ruined the lore/fluff. Daemons are already lacking in depth, this ret-con doesn't help.
Since they where split in fantasy 6th edition with their own codex, they haven't had anything like that.
Elbows wrote: Personally I'm sad that they kicked the "Daemonic Animosity" stuff to the side and ruined the lore/fluff. Daemons are already lacking in depth, this ret-con doesn't help.
Since they where split in fantasy 6th edition with their own codex, they haven't had anything like that.
Correct. It's stupid.
Yup, with all of GWs tourny busting, I'm surprised Magnus and Morty BFF Smash Bros hasn't been nerfed down with an Ancient Enemies errata.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah let's take complaining about models to a general discussion thread.
These new Locus look like they potentially bleed into Chaos Space Marine Deamon units, which will make taking a detachment of each much easier to do.
Unless they add a Faction Keyword for the Demon codex, you might not even have to take a Detachment of each. A Plagueburst Crawler is as much a Nurgle Demon as a Plaguebearer is.
PBC cannot be in a NURGLE DAEMONS detachment as it's DAEMON keyword is not a faction keyword, just a normal keyword. Same for all Death Guard and CSM daemonic units as far as I know. So if you want access to Daemon relics, strategems, warlord traits and loci you will need a separate Daemon detachment.
Eihnlazer wrote: Pretty obvious the loci are going to be the "chapter Tactics" for the demons.
You will get bonus for marks, and you will get loci bonus's if the entire detachment is from the same mark.
My understanding is that there's going to be a single <Chaos Daemons> chapter tactic and if you narrow yourself down even further to individual gods you will also get these loci as additional aura bonuses on your characters.
aye thats why there is faction keyword and normal keywords especially for that purpose.
Even if there was a loop hole the chances are GW will faq it anyway.
I'm not blown away by these daemon traits if i'm honest especially as they note the loci is only gonna be in effect if your detachment is 100% god aligned. Nurgle one is by far the best no surprise there nurgle is the chaos poster boy in 40k 8th like it seems Khorne is in AoS.
A big hope I have for the daemons codex is some kinda decent relic/strat that overrides normal summoning e.g. a portal type deep strike thing.
It's kind of annoying, but that's about it. Most Tzeentch units are bad enough in CC that it won't make for a big shift.
The exceptions (like lords of change) are going to be something of a problem, but you can just shoot those. Amusingly, spamming cheap, poor CC units is the best thing to do against Locus influenced Tzeentch units.
Elite marines are likely to be affected the most, but mostly it's about throwing as many attacks as possible and not caring.
Truthfully, I dislike it for the unnecessary die rolls and die manipulations that waste time.
I don't think the point is to make Tzeentch units 'better' in HtH. What the loci does is make them more durable in HtH, which is always a good feature in bubble wrap. The loci is what, a 20-25% debuff on elite HtH stuff most turns? That's nothing to sneeze at.
I remember the halcyon days when a Codex getting updated did not include people figuring how best to ally cheese the crap out of it. Been far too long.
dan2026 wrote: I wonder if the Tzeentch Loci will be useful for units like Warp Talons and Posssesed.
Don't know about Tzeentch, but it'll be pretty nice on Slaanesh possessed as they benefit from the advance and charge, and then can get FNP from a sorc.
Tzeentch possessed + changeling + Loci could get pretty hard to hit though.
Glad to see new Artwork for Daemons. ALl the Slannesh pics too only show plastic kits... hopefully the Finecast ones are out of here and replacements are soon on the way.
dan2026 wrote: I wonder if the Tzeentch Loci will be useful for units like Warp Talons and Posssesed.
Don't know about Tzeentch, but it'll be pretty nice on Slaanesh possessed as they benefit from the advance and charge, and then can get FNP from a sorc.
Tzeentch possessed + changeling + Loci could get pretty hard to hit though.
The Changeling seems to reduce the odds of the Loci being able to have an effect, so I see it as one or the other personally.
Ie: Say some Marines get into combat with you. For argument say you are in range of the Changeling and roll a 3 for the Loci. This means that while the Loci makes the natural 3 miss, however it was still going to miss due to the Changeling's -1 to hit. You have a 75% chance of rolling a 3 or lower, so the odds aren't great that the Loci will have an effect if paired with the Changeling.
Assuming the Changeling doesn't, heh, change with the codex anyway. Barring that I'd agree though, not great synergy there. Maybe better against 2+ guys though, double the chances of getting a useful number.
Will this be the first daemon release in 40k/AoS(including WHFB) since early 2000s to not totally destroy the game and make daemons the most obnoxious bullgak since the LAST daemon release?!!?!?
Fenris-77 wrote: I don't think the point is to make Tzeentch units 'better' in HtH. What the loci does is make them more durable in HtH, which is always a good feature in bubble wrap. The loci is what, a 20-25% debuff on elite HtH stuff most turns? That's nothing to sneeze at.
Which is pretty unfortunate considering "elite marine" armies are absolutely terrible in 8th. The best armies just spam cheap units so this just feels like yet another meaningless kick to WS 2/3+ assault units.
So I roll 2 dice, and get a 4 and a 5. I discard the 5. Does that mean every hit roll against a tzeentch unit in the locus's range of a 4 is now a miss?
Sounds like an interesting mechanic. Seems to be more punishing against enemies with a low hit chance, as all you have to do is roll a 5 or a 6 and then their chance to hit drops considerably.
ERJAK wrote: make daemons the most obnoxious bullgak since the LAST daemon release?!!?!?
What are Eldar and/or Tau for 100, 200, 300, and 400?
Eldar already have their book, and that small insignificant Xenos race is probably having fun being sandwiched between Bugs, Chaos and Necrons.
But seriously, 2017/18 is probably going to be mostly Chaos and Imperial, the guys the story is revolving around. I dont expect new models for Xenos anytime soon, personally. But who knows?
So I roll 2 dice, and get a 4 and a 5. I discard the 5. Does that mean every hit roll against a tzeentch unit in the locus's range of a 4 is now a miss?
Sounds like an interesting mechanic. Seems to be more punishing against enemies with a low hit chance, as all you have to do is roll a 5 or a 6 and then their chance to hit drops considerably.
On your case every roll of 4 would fail.
It's actually fairly weak. You generally hit on 3+ or 4+. For 4+ guys odds of not rolling 1, 2 or 3 on 2 dice is pretty low. On 3+ hit guy you need to not roll 1 or 2 for either dice to have ANY effect(odds of that is about 45%). Changeling's -1 to hit buff is also less effective with this. And works in h2h only.
Whilst I like the idea from the loci and the detachment requirements, does anyone else feel like this almost dissuaded you from either going multi god, or over encouraging min-maxing on the detachments?
If you wanted all the perks other army's get via chapter traits etc you're having to spam multiple patrols potentially and be short on cp
Dudeface wrote: Whilst I like the idea from the loci and the detachment requirements, does anyone else feel like this almost dissuaded you from either going multi god, or over encouraging min-maxing on the detachments?
If you wanted all the perks other army's get via chapter traits etc you're having to spam multiple patrols potentially and be short on cp
We don't know all the perks yet. It's too early to assume anything.
So I roll 2 dice, and get a 4 and a 5. I discard the 5. Does that mean every hit roll against a tzeentch unit in the locus's range of a 4 is now a miss?
Sounds like an interesting mechanic. Seems to be more punishing against enemies with a low hit chance, as all you have to do is roll a 5 or a 6 and then their chance to hit drops considerably.
On your case every roll of 4 would fail.
It's actually fairly weak. You generally hit on 3+ or 4+. For 4+ guys odds of not rolling 1, 2 or 3 on 2 dice is pretty low. On 3+ hit guy you need to not roll 1 or 2 for either dice to have ANY effect(odds of that is about 45%). Changeling's -1 to hit buff is also less effective with this. And works in h2h only.
Yeah, it does seem pretty unreliable. I can see it potentially being effective against guys that have like a 33% chance to a 50% chance to hit, but you still have to roll the right dice for it.
They made a point of "as long as you don't roll a one you can mitigate a lot of damage", but its more "as long as you don't roll less than 4 you might be able to do something with it, as most units hit on a 4+ anyway."
ERJAK wrote: make daemons the most obnoxious bullgak since the LAST daemon release?!!?!?
What are Eldar and/or Tau for 100, 200, 300, and 400?
Eldar already have their book, and that small insignificant Xenos race is probably having fun being sandwiched between Bugs, Chaos and Necrons.
But seriously, 2017/18 is probably going to be mostly Chaos and Imperial, the guys the story is revolving around. I dont expect new models for Xenos anytime soon, personally. But who knows?
An Eldar model was teased in a GW rumor. That or it’s a dead Eldar on a base. Lady Atia has said earlier in 2017 a big Tau update is coming. Her rumors tend to be more long range. So if it’s going to come true this is the prime year. As far as I can tell none of her rumors that came true have been longer than a year give or take a few months. Your really betting against the best rumor person around?
If you really want to go against the official GW tease being an Eldar model then it’s one heck of a long bet. I know my Eldar well. Even correctly guessing the one ynari Eldar who came from the dark Eldar. Granted I thought she would be a new de model so only partially correct.
rollawaythestone wrote:Slaanesh seems like they will be powerful. Advance + Charge, always fight first, plus bonuses to advance and charge - sounds nasty.
Do we know if the current abilities will be kept?
alextroy wrote:I wouldn't get too excited about combining the Daemonic Loci with Heretic Astartes units just yet. If the article is accurate (yes, a bit of a big ask for a Warhammer Community article), Daemonic Loci only work with units in your detachment, not just any Daemon unit for the proper Chaos God.
It's 6" from a unit with the locus, and units in the detachment get the locus, so should apply outside of the detachment, maybe not if only characters get the loci.
For things such as "affect every Khorne Daemon within 6"", can the Khorne and Daemon keywords be mixed across both 'faction keywords' and 'keywords'? Or, like on regular daemons, do the keywords both have to be under 'faction keywords'?
mrhappyface wrote: For things such as "affect every Khorne Daemon within 6"", can the Khorne and Daemon keywords be mixed across both 'faction keywords' and 'keywords'? Or, like on regular daemons, do the keywords both have to be under 'faction keywords'?
That really depends on wording. If the key word(s) in question are identical then yeah, it'll work unless specifically disallowed. They could always do something sneaky, like make the Codex Demon keyword <Khorne Demon> instead of <Khorne>, <Demon>. For me, it falls into the same boat as "friendly model" in stratagems and abilities. Provided they account for synergy, there's no reason why some of the abilities shouldn't overlap given that the armies themselves overlap.
I think we'll see some interaction with the auras. It would be a real missed opportunity if they didn't and it feels like they want CSM and Deamons to be bosom buddies this edition.
Well it affects Daemon Princes and Daemon Vehicles, so it's not like there is total cross-compatibility. I know having the overlap works well on the AoS side but not sure how analogous that is to 40k.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gonna be real strange having a Codex release that involves 4 distinct aesthetics but only 3 complete model lines.
I've got the GW fix for that!
"Slaanesh is now index only, to prevent confusion for players wondering where the new models are."
I think it will be more like:
"Due to Slaanesh getting a BIG release of their own in the future, we've left them out of the Daemon Codex so they can get a codex all of their own! Isn't that great? What's that? Why yes, Codex Slaanesh will be the same price as all the other codices."
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gonna be real strange having a Codex release that involves 4 distinct aesthetics but only 3 complete model lines.
Well, mostly complete. Khorne still needs new dogs and a couple other holes filled (especially in the hero/HQ area). And those other Horrors could show up as actual kits, rather than a model or two in unrelated boxes.
Galas wrote: The most inspiring this of this new Nurgle release is that they are redoing old kits.
Thats surely confirms Plastic Aspect Warriors in the future. Amirite?
Of course, with all new extreme sculpts! Striking scorpions with scorpion tails, howling banshees with modeled sound waves coming out of their mouths, swooping hawks with feathers and claws, warp spiders with eight limbs... it'll be great!
Honestly Slaanesh isn't too bad. Infantry, Cavalry, thee Chariot builds gives them a decent base to work off. It's the lack of a Greater Daemon and Fiends update that really sets them back. Something Nurgle also suffered from until next week.
Slaanesh in 40k is just dark eldar wytch cult -1 at this point. They need a drastic revamping more than anyone in the setting. Diva hair heralds. Daemonette squad cheerleaders. Reindeer scorpions. A lawn mower. And Yosh the Dino rider Seekers.The outdated goat face and bondage tentacle Greater Daemon is the only model I actually still like at this point.
Galas wrote: Thats surely confirms Plastic Aspect Warriors in the future. Amirite?
Sure! They will be released immediately after Phil Kelly will stop giving them utterly broken rules and making best 3 eldar units criminally undercosted!
Hint - it will happen somewhere after 2054, a decade after all other ranges moved to holographic minibase-projectors. When Kelly will finally retire after writing Tau book about Farsight killing the Chaos Gods with his trusty fusion-megadupernihilator, developed in mere months by Earth caste primarch-defector Vulkan, which is frankly I kinda expect to see soon given the "quality" of his Tau books
We all know that the only thing that is more important than money to GW is being politically correct (yes they have a lot in common with dakka dakka). GW have already started the procedures to abort the fetus known as Slaanesh from their new happy go lucky paradise universe. The appearance of units from the god of excess in this codex is most likely Slaanesh's last breath and before long his cold body will be rotting in GW's mortuary.
I’m really hoping we see a character greater demon for Slaanesh in the codex. I always thought that was the crappiest thing that they didn’t get one when they became their own army between 4th/5th ed. Zarakynell (the forgeworld one) is great, but I’m hoping, like the GUO, a KoS plastic kit supports a special character, and a couple of basic alt builds.
Also, I REALLY hope a new kit has a bovine head option. The2nd ed model’s gazelleish head was kind of weird (and not in a good Slaaneshy way). But the old RoC figure with the SIX different cow heads, is one of my favorite GW figures of all time! It’s actually the first GW figure I ever bought, back in like 1990. Once eBay was in full swing, I tracked down all six variants, and now they’re used as my fiends (as they’re too small to be KoS (though legally they could be!!!!
FudgeDumper wrote:We all know that the only thing that is more important than money to GW is being politically correct (yes they have a lot in common with dakka dakka). GW have already started the procedures to abort the fetus known as Slaanesh from their new happy go lucky paradise universe. The appearance of units from the god of excess in this codex is most likely Slaanesh's last breath and before long his cold body will be rotting in GW's mortuary.
This annoyingly persistent rumour has is rather unfounded. CITATION NEEDED.
FudgeDumper wrote: We all know that the only thing that is more important than money to GW is being politically correct (yes they have a lot in common with dakka dakka). GW have already started the procedures to abort the fetus known as Slaanesh from their new happy go lucky paradise universe. The appearance of units from the god of excess in this codex is most likely Slaanesh's last breath and before long his cold body will be rotting in GW's mortuary.
That's silly of them. Slaanesh is probably the most politically correct of all the gods. Men, women, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transvestite, hermaphrodite... Slaanesh doesn't just accept but actively welcomes all of these.
Really, Slaanesh is the only faction in the entire model line that has hermaphrodite models in it, and the only one of the chaos gods that's (sometimes) referred to as female in an otherwise sausage-filled pantheon.
People really need to get over Slaanesh being removed or recast as something else. Slaanesh is going nowhere. This has been stated by the design team multiple time since AOS was released. Slaanesh does not need to be made kid friendly. With the exception of the FWKOS they are already toned toned down and covered up. Besides which GW is still making models with exposed breasts such as: the Medusa, Drycha, and some of the Spirit Revenants. The GUO even had nipples! Slaanesh's themes may be expanded but they certainlying aren't changing the excess or debauchery. The fluff is just as hardcore as has always been implied even in the new AOS stories. They are not going to retrocon the Eldar's Fall, or its fallout. The old models for Slaanesh's and the other gods are going to be in this new codex the same as the last two. They'll use photos of the currently available models like always. The KOS will likely keep its current statline until it gets a new model. Whatever they do with the KOS, Fiends, or new models for Slaanesh you can bank on them being inline with the aesthetics of the current Daemonettes design. Love it or hate it people that take on them is here to stay. There won't be new daemonettes since the current ones are exactly what GW envisioned them to be.
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Automatically Appended Next Post: So, 22 Psychic Powers covering the Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, the Dark Hereticus disciplines and Smite. So, Slaanesh is definitely in their as expected. If they include all 9 Dark Hereticus powers that leaves 1 more power per god which are probably also the same 3 from the CSM Codex. Not that I'm complaining...
The datacard section also says, "usable by all Daemons like Daemonic Incursion". So, while don't know exactly what that does, it seems highly likely that Daemons are getting some kind of deployment stratagem like we all hoped for.
Anyone else disappointed that the beasts of Nurgle are all stuck in one pose with only a few options? In a sea of unique models, a pack of duplicate beasts is going to look odd
Tiberius501 wrote: Anyone else disappointed that the beasts of Nurgle are all stuck in one pose with only a few options? In a sea of unique models, a pack of duplicate beasts is going to look odd
Yeah. And the left arm is going to be really difficult to repose since the rest of the body is sculpted around it. The right arm & head tentacles should be easy to adjust at least, so it isn't all bad on the posing.
God, this was one of the main things I hoped wouldn't happen. Eldar alone have -18 psychic powers-, why in the hell does Tzeetch, the literal living magic Daemons, HAVE SIX?!
If they keep any of the index powers, then the psychic phase is bunk, because they're awful.
I think that just having access to Dark Hereticus and the CSM god powers will make a huge difference. Even before taking into account the 22 stratagems. Warp time, Prescience, and Death Hex will do some amazing things for daemons especially with their new Loci abilities. 22 stratagems: once you drop all the stock shooting ones that allot of options. At least 2 will be likely used to allow multiple relics and , and likely some tribute to the old warp storm table. If we get some sort of deep strike stratagem we'll be doing allot better; not even taking into account any, relics, gifts, points drops, or other rules changes.
xeen wrote: The datacard section also says, "usable by all Daemons like Daemonic Incursion". So, while don't know exactly what that does, it seems highly likely that Daemons are getting some kind of deployment stratagem like we all hoped for.
Fingers crossed it either allows you to put a few units in Deep Strike reserve, or somewhat like the army wide rule Daemons had in 4th/5th (Deep Striking waves).
dan2026 wrote: I love the new Beast of Nurgle model.
They have managed to capture the manic excitement and oblivious well meaning insanity perfectly.
I really like the model, I'm just disappointed there's only really one. You can change the details a little, changing the tubes to tentacles or the claw to a webbed claw, but the singular pose is going to be jarring in larger numbers.
I'm still going to get 3 to accompany the snail dude.
Sersi wrote: I think that just having access to Dark Hereticus and the CSM god powers will make a huge difference. Even before taking into account the 22 stratagems. Warp time, Prescience, and Death Hex will do some amazing things for daemons especially with their new Loci abilities. 22 stratagems: once you drop all the stock shooting ones that allot of options. At least 2 will be likely used to allow multiple relics and , and likely some tribute to the old warp storm table. If we get some sort of deep strike stratagem we'll be doing allot better; not even taking into account any, relics, gifts, points drops, or other rules changes.
I bet it is 3 new daemon powers per god, plus the 3 god specific Dark Hereticus powers, plus the 3 index powers per god, plus smite, for a total of 22 powers.
Sersi wrote: I think that just having access to Dark Hereticus and the CSM god powers will make a huge difference. Even before taking into account the 22 stratagems. Warp time, Prescience, and Death Hex will do some amazing things for daemons especially with their new Loci abilities. 22 stratagems: once you drop all the stock shooting ones that allot of options. At least 2 will be likely used to allow multiple relics and , and likely some tribute to the old warp storm table. If we get some sort of deep strike stratagem we'll be doing allot better; not even taking into account any, relics, gifts, points drops, or other rules changes.
I bet it is 3 new daemon powers per god, plus the 3 god specific Dark Hereticus powers, plus the 3 index powers per god, plus smite, for a total of 22 powers.
That's certainly a possibility; and it was my first thought as well. But then why even refer to the Dark Hereticus discipline if its just 3 of the 9 powers? I wouldn't be a bad thing to have some powerful spell that are not god specific. GW has already shown they have no problem with re-purposing rules to new codices. Would they be so un-original as to copy just paste over the CSM psychic powers? I think the answer has to be yes. Now, if it does turn out to be three new powers per god again, then I'm not excited for that at all. As they'll likely be rubbish psychic shooting attacks, or some other LD based non-sense rather than something really useful.
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Cephalobeard wrote: We don't know if they'll have access to them. It could be in there solely for Be'Lakor, who does.
We might not gains access to all of them that's true. But I think it pretty unlikely that Be'Lakor would even be a factor at all.
It's a factor in that he's the only unit in the Index from chaos daemons who has access to dark hereticus. If this stays the same, those powers will also be listed within the codex.
It either implies it remains the same and only he has them, or others may gain access.
*shrugs* Then those people are stupid, as well as being blind themselves. One only need look at my reaction to the new Necromunda, or how I fawn over GW's terrain, to see that your comment is not only baseless, but a borderline LIE.
Hi , I have early access to the codex. I have had to create a new account to be safe. As far as I understand from forum rules , I can't give everything or complete details.
The codex has the least amount of strategems, 3-4 for each god and 6 generic ones iirc.
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Sersi wrote: I think that just having access to Dark Hereticus and the CSM god powers will make a huge difference. Even before taking into account the 22 stratagems. Warp time, Prescience, and Death Hex will do some amazing things for daemons especially with their new Loci abilities. 22 stratagems: once you drop all the stock shooting ones that allot of options. At least 2 will be likely used to allow multiple relics and , and likely some tribute to the old warp storm table. If we get some sort of deep strike stratagem we'll be doing allot better; not even taking into account any, relics, gifts, points drops, or other rules changes.
Only Belakor has Dark Hereticus.
Infernal Gaze.
Death Hex.
Gift of Chaos.
We get a deepstrike strategem.
1 CP for 8 PL and below
2 Cp for 9 PL and above.
no other restrictions.
---
Brimstone horrors are 6++, blues are 5++, pinks are 4++.
Changeling lost -1 to hit for 6+++ FNP.
xxhikaru123 wrote: Hi , I have early access to the codex. I have had to create a new account to be safe. As far as I understand from forum rules , I can't give everything or complete details.
The codex has the least amount of strategems, 3-4 for each god and 6 generic ones iirc.
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Sersi wrote: I think that just having access to Dark Hereticus and the CSM god powers will make a huge difference. Even before taking into account the 22 stratagems. Warp time, Prescience, and Death Hex will do some amazing things for daemons especially with their new Loci abilities. 22 stratagems: once you drop all the stock shooting ones that allot of options. At least 2 will be likely used to allow multiple relics and , and likely some tribute to the old warp storm table. If we get some sort of deep strike stratagem we'll be doing allot better; not even taking into account any, relics, gifts, points drops, or other rules changes.
Only Belakor has Dark Hereticus.
Infernal Gaze.
Death Hex.
Gift of Chaos.
We get a deepstrike strategem.
1 CP for 8 PL and below
2 Cp for 9 PL and above.
no other restrictions.
---
Brimstone horrors are 6++, blues are 5++, pinks are 4++.
Changeling lost -1 to hit for 6+++ FNP.
I'll take any more Tzeentch news you can give me. Any word on Kairos?
My main issue is that I may miss some of the minor changes. I already did a comparison but hey the new codexes are about spot the differences.
No changes known to kairos. Most points remain the same but there are some minor changes up and down. LOC/Kairos/plague dropes dropped.
Flamers are 12" range now
Exalted are 3 shots instead of D3.
Anything with screamers lost slashing talon but their attacks became Lamprey bite.
Eg. 2 slashing attacks 1 bite? now 3 bites.
Most of the powers are really good imo , personally love nurgle the most.
Strategem wise:
2CP Tz Strat. pick a char, 6" aura of reroll psychic test.
1CP Khorne. pick a banner, that unit charges 3D6 instead of 2D6.
1CP Slaanesh. pick slaanesh daemon unit, all units within 3inch of that -1Attack for that phase.
1CP Nurgle. pick a unit with an icon before battle. during 1 fight phase. dmg characteristtics of a plaguesword carried by that unit increased to 2
So for 3 CP, you can deepstrike a bloodthirster or for 4 CP a max unit of bloodletters , charge them 3D6" rerollable. For all the khorne users.
Insensate Rage BT have two attack profiles now. Second (new) S:U -2 1 dmg , make 2 hit roll instead of 1 if use this attack.
All BTs get a rule that for each unmodded hit roll of 6, they score a 2nd free hit.
Bull gak. The Death Guard releases were virtually all monopose, with next to no options.
All plague marines aren't the same pose. All terminators aren't the same pose. All GUOs aren't the same pose. All drone-blightkings aren't the same pose. Monopose=/=identical pose across all modes of a given type, which is what we have with the beast. The beast is in a worse spot than many other units.
*shrugs* Then those people are stupid, as well as being blind themselves. One only need look at my reaction to the new Necromunda, or how I fawn over GW's terrain, to see that your comment is not only baseless, but a borderline LIE.
And responses like this encourage people to further think you just have a case of blind anger. Keep acting like that if you want, but it will remain a great way to ensure your viewpoint isn't respected however valid it may be.
Most of the powers are really good imo , personally love nurgle the most.
Strategem wise:
2CP Tz Strat. pick a char, 6" aura of reroll psychic test.
1CP Khorne. pick a banner, that unit charges 3D6 instead of 2D6.
1CP Slaanesh. pick slaanesh daemon unit, all units within 3inch of that -1Attack for that phase.
1CP Nurgle. pick a unit with an icon before battle. during 1 fight phase. dmg characteristtics of a plaguesword carried by that unit increased to 2
So for 3 CP, you can deepstrike a bloodthirster or for 4 CP a max unit of bloodletters , charge them 3D6" rerollable. For all the khorne users.
Insensate Rage BT have two attack profiles now. Second (new) S:U -2 1 dmg , make 2 hit roll instead of 1 if use this attack.
All BTs get a rule that for each unmodded hit roll of 6, they score a 2nd free hit.
Thanks for your reply. Those rules are certainly decent. Do you have rules changes for any Slaanesh units?
Oh we are getting leaks awesome, that slaanesh stratagem that gives -1 attack seems useful, does it say to a minimum of 1 and how does it work vs say chain sword bonus attacks ?
skullking wrote: I’m really hoping we see a character greater demon for Slaanesh in the codex. I always thought that was the crappiest thing that they didn’t get one when they became their own army between 4th/5th ed. Zarakynell (the forgeworld one) is great, but I’m hoping, like the GUO, a KoS plastic kit supports a special character, and a couple of basic alt builds.
Also, I REALLY hope a new kit has a bovine head option. The2nd ed model’s gazelleish head was kind of weird (and not in a good Slaaneshy way). But the old RoC figure with the SIX different cow heads, is one of my favorite GW figures of all time! It’s actually the first GW figure I ever bought, back in like 1990. Once eBay was in full swing, I tracked down all six variants, and now they’re used as my fiends (as they’re too small to be KoS (though legally they could be!!!!
If there was going to be new GUO model we would have heard of it by now so no there won't be.
This release is all about nurgle. No new khorne models, no new tzeentch models, no new slaanesh models.
Rydria wrote: Oh we are getting leaks awesome, that slaanesh stratagem that gives -1 attack seems useful, does it say to a minimum of 1 and how does it work vs say chain sword bonus attacks ?
skullking wrote: I’m really hoping we see a character greater demon for Slaanesh in the codex. I always thought that was the crappiest thing that they didn’t get one when they became their own army between 4th/5th ed. Zarakynell (the forgeworld one) is great, but I’m hoping, like the GUO, a KoS plastic kit supports a special character, and a couple of basic alt builds.
Also, I REALLY hope a new kit has a bovine head option. The2nd ed model’s gazelleish head was kind of weird (and not in a good Slaaneshy way). But the old RoC figure with the SIX different cow heads, is one of my favorite GW figures of all time! It’s actually the first GW figure I ever bought, back in like 1990. Once eBay was in full swing, I tracked down all six variants, and now they’re used as my fiends (as they’re too small to be KoS (though legally they could be!!!!
If there was going to be new GUO model we would have heard of it by now so no there won't be.
This release is all about nurgle. No new khorne models, no new tzeentch models, no new slaanesh models.
Well not only is Tzeentch all plastic now they've already been expanded on, outside of perhaps some new character heralds. Khorne is nearly complete lacking only Flesh Hounds, and perhaps character heralds. Nurgle's getting all plastic and bonus characters now due to there joint AOS release. Slaanesh will be similar coinciding with their return on AOS, or alongside an Emperor's children release.
Thanks my dude, you are a scholar and a gentleman.
I believe the ability that Slaanesh Seekers had (run+charge) got transferred to Slaanesh heralds. If thats the case, what special rules do Seekers have now?
Also, do Daemonette/Seeker claws still have the same profile? S:U AP1 AP4 on a wound roll of 6+
Edit- As an aside. Assuming power level stays the same, you can plop 30 bloodletters 9'' away from an enemy unit on turn 1 for 1cp. That's pretty baller.
Beast of Nurgle are 5 Wounds now , and if you try to Fall Back from them (1"), on a 4+, you do a MW.
Afaik, god specific traits are the same.
Would you be willing to share some relics for us ?
Hmm. I don't think I am permitted to list all, There are usual junk ones but i will point out a few interesting ones.
Khorne: (Mons only) - 4++ Deny 1 power in each enemy psychic phase.
Khorne: 1 model. Each time you make wound roll of 6+ fr friendly khorne daemon unit within 6" of bearer, can make another free attack.
Tz: 1 additional TZ power
Tz: +1 to smite cast
Nurgle: everytime bearer kills a model in fight phase while within 7' of a plaguebearer unit , on a 4+, add a PB to that unit.
Slaanesh: 1x per game, start of phase, select enemy char within 12" roll 3d6, if exceed enemy char ld, it cannot do anything, and its abilities dont affect anything.
On topic, I'm digging the alleged changes to Screamers and Flamers. Screamers will actually be useful in combat, now, and people can't hover just out of Flamer range before charging them.
Here is my biggest burning question: does the wording of particular stratagems, anything at the start of the stratagem section, prevent you from using the stratagems on Daemon units that are from other codexes (i.e., they are keyword daemon but not keyword faction daemon)? I would assume no, and I would assume that you can use stratagems on Obliterators or Mortarion and so on so long as you have a chaos daemons detachment for using the stratagems.
skullking wrote: I’m really hoping we see a character greater demon for Slaanesh in the codex. I always thought that was the crappiest thing that they didn’t get one when they became their own army between 4th/5th ed. Zarakynell (the forgeworld one) is great, but I’m hoping, like the GUO, a KoS plastic kit supports a special character, and a couple of basic alt builds.
Also, I REALLY hope a new kit has a bovine head option. The2nd ed model’s gazelleish head was kind of weird (and not in a good Slaaneshy way). But the old RoC figure with the SIX different cow heads, is one of my favorite GW figures of all time! It’s actually the first GW figure I ever bought, back in like 1990. Once eBay was in full swing, I tracked down all six variants, and now they’re used as my fiends (as they’re too small to be KoS (though legally they could be!!!!
If there was going to be new GUO model we would have heard of it by now so no there won't be.
This release is all about nurgle. No new khorne models, no new tzeentch models, no new slaanesh models.
End of the year for new KoS, assuming that's what you meant.
End of the year for new KoS, assuming that's what you meant.
I'd love to believe this, but, uhh, do you have anything that supports this claim?
Also--
While everyone's inundating xxhikaru123 with requests for info about the new codex, could I trouble to ask if there was any change to the Keeper of Secrets or Fiends of Slaanesh?
And thank you for all the info so far, too.
skullking wrote: I’m really hoping we see a character greater demon for Slaanesh in the codex. I always thought that was the crappiest thing that they didn’t get one when they became their own army between 4th/5th ed. Zarakynell (the forgeworld one) is great, but I’m hoping, like the GUO, a KoS plastic kit supports a special character, and a couple of basic alt builds.
Also, I REALLY hope a new kit has a bovine head option. The2nd ed model’s gazelleish head was kind of weird (and not in a good Slaaneshy way). But the old RoC figure with the SIX different cow heads, is one of my favorite GW figures of all time! It’s actually the first GW figure I ever bought, back in like 1990. Once eBay was in full swing, I tracked down all six variants, and now they’re used as my fiends (as they’re too small to be KoS (though legally they could be!!!!
If there was going to be new GUO model we would have heard of it by now so no there won't be.
This release is all about nurgle. No new khorne models, no new tzeentch models, no new slaanesh models.
End of the year for new KoS, assuming that's what you meant.
Yeah I blame it on 5 hour sleeps. KOS, not GUO. To get rules for character greater daemon of slaanesh there would need to be model for it to be released none which are rumoured to be coming. And highly unlikely GW would release now 2 greater daemons at the same time(well 3 actually. GUO, KOS special character and unless GW goes nuts they don't release special character KOS without regular KOS as well)
though when new KOS comes is another thing. Could be this year, could be 2019, could be 2020, could be later.
rvd1ofakind wrote: TBH, people post whole page scans and nothing bad happens to them. Just throw the whole points page on imgur o something
I want to know:
have Bloodthirsters/Lord Of Change/Screamers been dropped in pts significantly?
Notable Psychic powers?
Bloodthirsters no change to pt, but they had some abilities addition I mentioned earlier.
LOC/Kairos drop 20-35.
Only naming the newer 3 powers for each.
Tz:
WC6. Reroll a single dice roll later during ur turn.
WC5. Pick friendly tz daemon unit within 18". Until next psychic phase, +1 to wound roll.
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+.
Nurgle:
Wc7. Roll D6 for every unit (excluding nurgle) within 7" of caster. 4+ D3 MW.
WC6. Pick enemy unit visible within 18". -1 Toughness.
WC6 Miasma of Pestilence same as DG contagion but targets Nurgle Daemon.
Slaanesh:
WC5. Select friendly slaanhesh daemon within 18". 6+++ FnP WC6. select enemy unit within 18 visible. Roll d6 for every model in that enemy unit. on a 6, 1 mw.
WC6. All enenmy unit -1 ld within 12 inch of psyker.
nagash42 wrote: Maybe they'll all get some new abilities? insanate rage gets 12 attacks if it uses the other weapon.
Oh did the wound tracks change on any of the greater demons?
Was really hoping for increased movement or survivability. Increased damage outlut is a something.
Does the 3d6 charge strategum work on the Bloodthirsters?
The stratagem only works on a unit with a "banner" so no.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nagash42 wrote: I don't think I would really ever take that WC5 slaanesh spell maybe on a herald.
Yeah, that's trash. The second Slaanesh power could be good assuming that each roll of 6 causes a MW, rather that just one per cast. The 3rd Slaanesh spell could be very effective if we can somehow stack it.
I just hope there is some way to mitigate Morale; a greater Daemon aura, stratagem, relic or something.
Those Tzeentch psychic powers seem... weak. The +1 to wound one is pretty good at least, would probably be excellent with the new and improved flamers, though that leaves Tzeentch with exactly one psychic power you want to cast every turn. That... is not very good.
Is the horror change you listed before or after factoring in Ephemeral Form? Pinks with a 3++ might actually be worth running, lol.
Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
mrhappyface wrote: Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
3D6" charge out of deep strike with rerolls is pretty damn good. Throw a blob of bloodletters at anything with a 93+% chance of a successful assault.
mrhappyface wrote: Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
3D6" charge out of deep strike with rerolls is pretty damn good. Throw a blob of bloodletters at anything with a 93+% chance of a successful assault.
Wait, can Daemon deep strike now? That might well make them better.
mrhappyface wrote: Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
3D6" charge out of deep strike with rerolls is pretty damn good. Throw a blob of bloodletters at anything with a 93+% chance of a successful assault.
Wait, can Daemon deep strike now? That might well make them better.
It's one of the generic stratagems. If a unit costs <=8PL, you can deep strike it for 1CP. If it costs >=9PL then it costs 2CP.
Don't forget to filter the thread if you want to see everything that xxhikaru123 has posted
mrhappyface wrote: Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
3D6" charge out of deep strike with rerolls is pretty damn good. Throw a blob of bloodletters at anything with a 93+% chance of a successful assault.
Wait, can Daemon deep strike now? That might well make them better.
It's one of the generic stratagems. If a unit costs <=8PL, you can deep strike it for 1CP. If it costs >=9PL then it costs 2CP.
Don't forget to filter the thread if you want to see everything that xxhikaru123 has posted
So what your telling me is that I could, for 2CP, deep strike An'ggrath? And he'd also be able to re-roll charges because he's a character? Too bad daemons don't also have access to warptime.
mrhappyface wrote: Sorry, I keep dipping in and out of this thread, what has been revealed about Khorne besides the re-roll aura, the 3d6 charge strategem and no points decrease? I'm kind of hoping Khorne gets something to balance the fact that they get no psychic powers.
3D6" charge out of deep strike with rerolls is pretty damn good. Throw a blob of bloodletters at anything with a 93+% chance of a successful assault.
Wait, can Daemon deep strike now? That might well make them better.
It's one of the generic stratagems. If a unit costs <=8PL, you can deep strike it for 1CP. If it costs >=9PL then it costs 2CP.
Don't forget to filter the thread if you want to see everything that xxhikaru123 has posted
So what your telling me is that I could, for 2CP, deep strike An'ggrath? And he'd also be able to re-roll charges because he's a character? Too bad daemons don't also have access to warptime.
It certainly looks that way, and you'd be able to charge 3D6" with another stratagem. Don't need warp time with that!
Tzeetch
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+.
I love this power, especially if Tzeetch have some buffs to casting rolls. One of the thing really lacking in this addition is a way to punished units clumped together. 2-3 casts of this will take out an entire clump of units/characters. (1-2 if you manage to get 12+). Can see it hitting 5+ units quite consistently and/or making your opponent think twice about clustering units.
I'm curious about the new Great Unclean One and the new Nurgle Heralds (the piper dude and the other guy who has the parchment), and also Horticulous Slimux.
For the wellness of the game, I hope they do some restriction between chaos space marines daemon and pure daemons. (the same that genestealer cults and tyranids)
Other than the nerfs to brims and blues and I'm guessing the points adjustment to pinks from CA, is there nothing else for Pink Horrors? I was kind of hoping with the beta smite rule they'd get something for their psychic abilities to make them less terrible.
I suppose they make a very solid screen with the generic +1 invuln power, and all the +wound stuff is good on them just due to volume of attacks.
the_scotsman wrote: Other than the nerfs to brims and blues and I'm guessing the points adjustment to pinks from CA, is there nothing else for Pink Horrors? I was kind of hoping with the beta smite rule they'd get something for their psychic abilities to make them less terrible.
I suppose they make a very solid screen with the generic +1 invuln power, and all the +wound stuff is good on them just due to volume of attacks.
Here comes question of timing of beta rules. They were announced on december. Daemon codex was up for printers probably around summer. Have they withold beta smite rules for that long? If it's fairly recent thing on THEIR side next codex it might influence design would be late next year earliest...
Incidentally I wonder if conscripts got so overnerfed due to this. By the time 4pts price was made to chapter approved the errata's in netsite were not done and now they have got triple nerfed to the point when they cost as much as regular trooper while being worse on every case except one unit for valhallan heirloom...
the_scotsman wrote: Other than the nerfs to brims and blues and I'm guessing the points adjustment to pinks from CA, is there nothing else for Pink Horrors? I was kind of hoping with the beta smite rule they'd get something for their psychic abilities to make them less terrible.
I suppose they make a very solid screen with the generic +1 invuln power, and all the +wound stuff is good on them just due to volume of attacks.
Here comes question of timing of beta rules. They were announced on december. Daemon codex was up for printers probably around summer. Have they withold beta smite rules for that long? If it's fairly recent thing on THEIR side next codex it might influence design would be late next year earliest...
Incidentally I wonder if conscripts got so overnerfed due to this. By the time 4pts price was made to chapter approved the errata's in netsite were not done and now they have got triple nerfed to the point when they cost as much as regular trooper while being worse on every case except one unit for valhallan heirloom...
I dunno. TBH horrors are going to be fine, and I can see a use for all three of them now. With the models I own, I'm most likely going to run a unit of 20 pinks+10 brims initial+10 blues in Split with a banner. Use the +1 invuln strat and have the Changeling in amongst them for 6++ and the locus and they are going to be a really really strong screen. Pinks take the casualties from combat, giving them the best saves and allowing them to Split to get more units into the combat, brims take the inevitable morale casualties when I don't have quite enough taken out to justify 2cp for insane bravery. Seems like that wonderful combination of a fluffy way to have them on the battlefield that is also fairly competitive, so I'm excited about that.
I'm on the fence about whether the LOC/Kairos changes will do enough, but I think the changes to flamers and screamers may be enough to take actual tzeentch daemons into real use while still nerfing the obnoxious Horror+Changeling+Magnus+Morty soup list.
I was just wondering whether horrors got any of their old psychic-ness with the codex. It was fun in 7th having troops that contributed a little bit to my overall flexibility as a psychic army. I miss that on pinks and aspiring sorcerors.
the_scotsman wrote: Other than the nerfs to brims and blues and I'm guessing the points adjustment to pinks from CA, is there nothing else for Pink Horrors? I was kind of hoping with the beta smite rule they'd get something for their psychic abilities to make them less terrible.
I suppose they make a very solid screen with the generic +1 invuln power, and all the +wound stuff is good on them just due to volume of attacks.
Here comes question of timing of beta rules. They were announced on december. Daemon codex was up for printers probably around summer. Have they withold beta smite rules for that long? If it's fairly recent thing on THEIR side next codex it might influence design would be late next year earliest...
Incidentally I wonder if conscripts got so overnerfed due to this. By the time 4pts price was made to chapter approved the errata's in netsite were not done and now they have got triple nerfed to the point when they cost as much as regular trooper while being worse on every case except one unit for valhallan heirloom...
That was my thinking too re: conscripts. I wouldn't be surprised to see them wind back some of the nerf with the March balance update.
On topic, I'm digging the alleged changes to Screamers and Flamers. Screamers will actually be useful in combat, now, and people can't hover just out of Flamer range before charging them.
We’ll also be able to Summon Flamers in shooting range as well. When there’s a horde inbound, especially if they lack shooting, a gunline Marshall can now bring in some mini-Aggressors.
I was looking forwards to Screamers becoming viable again, I’ve got a bunch of them I was wanting to field with a disc or chariot Herald.
xxhikaru123, if I may ask a few questions, I was wondering if they changed summoning rules at all. If not, did they lower some of the greater deamons power level so summoning them was actually possible? If not finally, is there a stratagem that helps with summoning, or a relic, or something?
Space marines rules are based on the adeptus astartes keyword, but it applies only to codex compliant SM.
Tyranid rules are based on the tyranid keyword but don't apply to the Cult.
These rules will probably be based on the Demon keyword, without applying to CSM demons.
Hopefully not, I actually enjoyed the synergies that the various CSM daemons had with CD.
Tyranid Synapse auras have been based on the <HIVE FLEET> keyword from day one. BEHEMOTH Warriors have never been able to control GORGON Termagants.
Tyranid psychic powers were and still are based on the TYRANIDS keyword. The Codex and Index FAQs make no mention of GSC being excluded from this. KRAKEN Zoanthropes can cast Catalyst on GENESTEALER CULTS Leman Russ tanks. EDIT: WRONG.mpg.exe
The wording of the new Codex teasers does put a question mark over the continued existence of de facto HA Daemonkin. Fingers crossed we can still bounce buffs between the two Chaos codices, but don’t bet the farm on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm. Wonder if Miasma of Pestilence will be one per turn. And if not, can it stack on the same unit? An army of Characters behind a horde of DG Possessed at -3 to be hit could be fun
The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
FudgeDumper wrote: The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
Because the new one looks like a fun characterful model and the old one looks like a bland, boring, mess.
The new one also has different heads, bellys, tentacles and arms. Allowing some customisation.
Also being plastic, it would be very easy to alter further if you desire.
But essentially for me the new model is a good representation of the fluff. Where as the old one is not.
Very excited to see what non-BT upgrades the book brings, as I've never really cared for the big red dudes (and 8E is pretty unkind to large single melee models). Guessing that mostly means pimping out princes (4++ & deny isn't a bad start), but curious what heralds will get.
Also add a +1 to Blood Throne and Skull Cannon info
Tzeetch
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+.
I love this power, especially if Tzeetch have some buffs to casting rolls. One of the thing really lacking in this addition is a way to punished units clumped together. 2-3 casts of this will take out an entire clump of units/characters. (1-2 if you manage to get 12+). Can see it hitting 5+ units quite consistently and/or making your opponent think twice about clustering units.
Its situational, it says within 3 of the target model not unit. So the majority of the time your hitting a screening unit and measuring from silly Bobs base not the whole unit. This makes it an expensive smite basically.
This codex could very well break the game. We need more info on the deep strike strat, is it multi-use and what keywords does it affect. Imagine a Magnarion list with both those boys in reserve, T1 use the invul strat on Morty and cast Miasma, and on Magnus weavers. I can't see a single list that even stands a chance to kill them if these strats affect Daemon keyword. Also if the rumours are to be believe then it looks to be like Tzeentch got gutted, brims down to a 6++ and the Changling being nerfed into the ground, although there will be more variety with exalteds looking interesting as anti-tank in a chaos infantry army that eschews tanks.
Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
I'd like to hear your ideas if ya don't mind. In my mind I only used Tzeentch daemons up to now for the Brims 4++ and -1 from Changling. Maybe nerfed into the ground is wrong but without those cheap 4++ saves and changling all my old uses for tzeentch have gone.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
Yeah, but ITC plays very different from 40K.
- First Strike instead of First Blood
- Maelstrom in every mission
- CA first turn rules applied to BRB missions as well
- etc..
All these nerf more elite armies that thrive in old school Relic missions, etc.. and favour more board control, larger detachments for more command points, etc..
It's not really 40K anymore these days.
In this example, Brimstones as troop fillers are much more likely to give away a non-first-strikeable-first-blood-point against a low drop army getting auto-first turn in a non-CA mission for example. All those ITC houserules really play in their favour, as losing first turn is less likely, loosing first blood less dramatic if you have first strike and the upsides of having more board control and command points thus lack their balancing downsides.
It appears they are buffing the other Tzentch daemons. Brimstones and the changelibg deserved a nerf.
To be honest, you shouldnt be able to use units of brimstoess and blues. Make two cost for pinks, 7ppm without spliting, 10-11ppm spliting.
FudgeDumper wrote: The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
Because the new one looks like a fun characterful model and the old one looks like a bland, boring, mess.
The new one also has different heads, bellys, tentacles and arms. Allowing some customisation.
Also being plastic, it would be very easy to alter further if you desire.
But essentially for me the new model is a good representation of the fluff. Where as the old one is not.
All your points are complete blasphemy.
Point 1: Son, this is not Pokemon. I'm not trying to argue that the new model is bad, I'm saying its a very expensive single pose model which you will need multiples of. And last generations beast also had a lot of character, its only flaw being a single pose, just like the new one.
Point 2: Oh please, didn't you see the reveal videos? The different face/stomach options is a band aid and it is so obvious its sad.
Point 3: A non argument. If GW had made the new beast of Nurgle out of dog poop it would have been even easier to convert. The new model's body is also a single segment so good luck with any conversions.
Point 4: Totally invalid seeing as both models are basically just fat snails with 2 appendages and a bunch of tentacles on the head. This is proof of your biased stance.
Stop trying to defend a point just for the sake of defending. GW messed up, period.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
Yeah, but ITC plays very different from 40K.
- First Strike instead of First Blood
- Maelstrom in every mission
- CA first turn rules applied to BRB missions as well
- etc..
All these nerf more elite armies that thrive in old school Relic missions, etc.. and favour more board control, larger detachments for more command points, etc..
It's not really 40K anymore these days.
In this example, Brimstones as troop fillers are much more likely to give away a non-first-strikeable-first-blood-point against a low drop army getting auto-first turn in a non-CA mission for example. All those ITC houserules really play in their favour, as losing first turn is less likely, loosing first blood less dramatic if you have first strike and the upsides of having more board control and command points thus lack their balancing downsides.
I understand your major points, but you are aware the ITC is not an all encompassing format, yes?
You can use whatever rule set you like, including book missions. Hell, my local shop does that sometimes. They have their own missions the guys in CA use, absolutely, but you're not in any way required to. In the last two years I've never even used their "Champions" Missions.
Edit: Forgive me, that's neither here nor there. Let's stick to the Rumors.
ntin wrote: Any changes to the greater daemons? Like a 4++ or point reduction?
All Deamons are still 5++.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Skullreaver is...OK I suppose. It appears you will be able to make some really crazy Greater Deamons but the investment will be high. I'm worried Deamonkin will be out of the question.
Personally hoping that the minor reduction in points for the Greater Daemons is indicative that they'll be buffed much further, as opposed to having points reduced.
Not a terrible weapon, for sure. I'm guessing the "sweep" attack update to the Insensate Rage 'thirster is related to his weapon and not the model. If it is a model-based rule, that axe would just be ruinous. Not holding my breath, just musing.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
You are top 10 of daemons in ITC and can't see why cutting the brimes durability by a staggering 66% kills them as viable tarpits/screens?
You'll need to invest 3 times as many points, and models, in order to reach the sane effect.
Yea, brimes were on the strong side, but this renders them non viable, aa being hard to kill for the cost was the only thing they ever did, and now they are not at all.
Cephalobeard wrote: Personally hoping that the minor reduction in points for the Greater Daemons is indicative that they'll be buffed much further, as opposed to having points reduced.
I’m really hoping for the same, if the +1 invuln stratagem is legit that already goes a long way towards making my LoC way more survivable. Though that’ll really depend on 5e CP cost as well.
Being able to use ld10 is nice...but pretty unimpressive for >300 points, they really need a better aura.
Indeed, Greater Daemons of Khorne – or any Chaos God – have received a significant improvement in the new codex thanks to 24 (yes, 24!) Warlord Traits.
Anyone else find this kinda weird? Why do we need so many Warlord Traits and not more Artifacts / Strats / Powers? I mean there's only going to be a handful of these that I'd want and honestly if I'm using Khorne Deamons to compliment my World Eaters than these won't be used at all. Just a weird place to put so many ideas into.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
You are top 10 of daemons in ITC and can't see why cutting the brimes durability by a staggering 66% kills them as viable tarpits/screens?
You'll need to invest 3 times as many points, and models, in order to reach the sane effect.
Yea, brimes were on the strong side, but this renders them non viable, aa being hard to kill for the cost was the only thing they ever did, and now they are not at all.
You're taking the quote out of context there, friend. The poster I responded to said, quite specifically, "Tzeentch got gutted" and "Changeling was nerfed into the ground", I even quoted the nerfed into the ground part when discussing what I was replying to.
I have ideas for how to move forward with them as an army, not how to ride along the back of a single unit. Beyond that you're injecting your own opinion into my quote, implying I added anything further to how Brimstones will/are performing.
Edit: Hell, I'll clarify further for you, if you'd like. Brimstones are absolutely worse. However, I can't make a complete call on them until I know their points. If they're cheaper, they're still fine as bodies to simply throw into a meat grinder, and if split as a whole has been reduced to be around or below 200pts, then large blobs of pinks fully splitting, AND making use of the +1 INV stratagem is something I'm happy to trade the durability of brimstones for.
Cephalobeard wrote: Personally hoping that the minor reduction in points for the Greater Daemons is indicative that they'll be buffed much further, as opposed to having points reduced.
From my experience Keeper of Secrets is inferior to a Daemon Prince. The 5++ save and 12W makes it can be sniped by anti-tank weapons.
Indeed, Greater Daemons of Khorne – or any Chaos God – have received a significant improvement in the new codex thanks to 24 (yes, 24!) Warlord Traits.
Anyone else find this kinda weird? Why do we need so many Warlord Traits and not more Artifacts / Strats / Powers? I mean there's only going to be a handful of these that I'd want and honestly if I'm using Khorne Deamons to compliment my World Eaters than these won't be used at all. Just a weird place to put so many ideas into.
Yeah 24 is a bit excessive, but when you think about it, any model you pick as your WL will only have access to 6 of those 24 due to them being god-specific.
I would have rather had 3 for each god and maybe another 3 generic that can apply to any alignment. That's 15 total and each WL still have access to 6 codex WL traits.
Even if brims are just 3pt models you tack on to horror units to eat morale casualties and mortal wounds I think they're useful and will appear in lists.
Just maybe in the minor role they were actually intended to have rather than the great hordes of 100 we've seen.
It is great to see folks who have amassed 100+ of a particular powerful model progressing into the first stages of grief again though. Always does my heart good.
FudgeDumper wrote: The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
Because the new one looks like a fun characterful model and the old one looks like a bland, boring, mess.
The new one also has different heads, bellys, tentacles and arms. Allowing some customisation.
Also being plastic, it would be very easy to alter further if you desire.
But essentially for me the new model is a good representation of the fluff. Where as the old one is not.
All your points are complete blasphemy.
Point 1: Son, this is not Pokemon. I'm not trying to argue that the new model is bad, I'm saying its a very expensive single pose model which you will need multiples of. And last generations beast also had a lot of character, its only flaw being a single pose, just like the new one.
Point 2: Oh please, didn't you see the reveal videos? The different face/stomach options is a band aid and it is so obvious its sad.
Point 3: A non argument. If GW had made the new beast of Nurgle out of dog poop it would have been even easier to convert. The new model's body is also a single segment so good luck with any conversions.
Point 4: Totally invalid seeing as both models are basically just fat snails with 2 appendages and a bunch of tentacles on the head. This is proof of your biased stance.
Stop trying to defend a point just for the sake of defending. GW messed up, period.
As a Nurgle-only player I must say both of the beasts are nothing spectacular. The old one was the ugliest model of the whole Nurgle-range, lacking any focus. I painted one and still can't exactly say what that model wants to be. Some mish-mash-snail creature with claws. It also doesn't hold up to its fluff with its pretty grim looking face. The new one is still not a fancy model, but at least it looks as ridiculous as the background describes it and is a bit customizable. Personally I would've liked something more puppy-like, but I guess that would've stepped on the toes of Khorne.
Really want to see the rules of that tree and Horticulous.
Cephalobeard wrote: Brimstones being 6++ and Changeling giving 6+++ isn't exactly "nerfed into the ground". I'm in the top 10 of the ITC for Daemons and use almost exclusively Tzeentch daemons, and I have quite a few ideas for how to move forward.
You are top 10 of daemons in ITC and can't see why cutting the brimes durability by a staggering 66% kills them as viable tarpits/screens?
You'll need to invest 3 times as many points, and models, in order to reach the sane effect.
Yea, brimes were on the strong side, but this renders them non viable, aa being hard to kill for the cost was the only thing they ever did, and now they are not at all.
You're taking the quote out of context there, friend. The poster I responded to said, quite specifically, "Tzeentch got gutted" and "Changeling was nerfed into the ground", I even quoted the nerfed into the ground part when discussing what I was replying to.
I have ideas for how to move forward with them as an army, not how to ride along the back of a single unit. Beyond that you're injecting your own opinion into my quote, implying I added anything further to how Brimstones will/are performing.
Edit: Hell, I'll clarify further for you, if you'd like. Brimstones are absolutely worse. However, I can't make a complete call on them until I know their points. If they're cheaper, they're still fine as bodies to simply throw into a meat grinder, and if split as a whole has been reduced to be around or below 200pts, then large blobs of pinks fully splitting, AND making use of the +1 INV stratagem is something I'm happy to trade the durability of brimstones for.
Its all going to be about how cheap the brims are and whether they tweak the splitting rule, but if they are kept the same except the invun nerf then I still believe that horrors have been badly nerfed. The invul strat is great but using it on the horrors means leaving a monster like kairos without. The codex is definately buffing daemons as a whole, but as is it seems like pure Tzeentch will be in a really bad place. I think even best case with new rules for splitting, horrors in general have been heavily nerfed. In my opinion one huge squad of pinks with a 3++ (with strat) with ability to split no way makes up for the fact that we lost one of the best (spammable) screening units.
I hope Bloodthirsters get more boosts. Its my favorite model in my collection but always goes down then 1-2.
The 4++ armor and +1 to invulnerable strategum can go towards that. The armor also looks good on a prince as it can't be targeted specifically, but I like the relic axe on a DP.
Nothing will make up for the loss, it won't ever be the same again.
I'm simply choosing to take the secondary option that isn't lamenting that, and working for how to make it function how it will be, instead of how it was.
It's going to be different. Some things won't be as good. Some things will be better. As it stands, the main models I used previously were Exalted Flamers, and they appear to have been made better, so I will share little tears for Horrors.
Cephalobeard wrote: Nothing will make up for the loss, it won't ever be the same again.
I'm simply choosing to take the secondary option that isn't lamenting that, and working for how to make it function how it will be, instead of how it was.
It's going to be different. Some things won't be as good. Some things will be better. As it stands, the main models I used previously were Exalted Flamers, and they appear to have been made better, so I will share little tears for Horrors.
You're my new favourite person for this quote (bolded). It's unfortunate when something we like using gets nerfed but that's just life. You can either whine about it, annoy people, and raise your blood pressure, or you can just put on your big daemon pants and deal with it. I just added a Patrol Det to my Tsons that consists only of the Changeling and 10 Brimstone Horrors. All of a sudden I have a whackload of new strategems I can use on things like my Decimators and Magnus. I gain a bit of durability, a mini screen, and whatever other fun treats the Daemons Codex will bring for, if points remain the same, 130 points. Pretty good deal!
Yeah but if the leaks are correct, the S of the shooting attack is now "User" instead of 3, so the +1 from the Herald is good. And they gain 1 shoot if they are more than 20 pinks.
Cephalobeard wrote: Nothing will make up for the loss, it won't ever be the same again.
I'm simply choosing to take the secondary option that isn't lamenting that, and working for how to make it function how it will be, instead of how it was.
It's going to be different. Some things won't be as good. Some things will be better. As it stands, the main models I used previously were Exalted Flamers, and they appear to have been made better, so I will share little tears for Horrors.
You're my new favourite person for this quote (bolded). It's unfortunate when something we like using gets nerfed but that's just life. You can either whine about it, annoy people, and raise your blood pressure, or you can just put on your big daemon pants and deal with it. I just added a Patrol Det to my Tsons that consists only of the Changeling and 10 Brimstone Horrors. All of a sudden I have a whackload of new strategems I can use on things like my Decimators and Magnus. I gain a bit of durability, a mini screen, and whatever other fun treats the Daemons Codex will bring for, if points remain the same, 130 points. Pretty good deal!
The more I think about it, I can't see them letting us use those strats on daemons not from the codex. Maybe they will work but can you imagine keeping Morty in reserve, then T1 deep strike, use invun strat on him and try to cast Miasma. That's an 18 wound model with a 3++/5+++ and maybe -1 to hit and heres the kicker its immune to alpha strike, even reserving magnus to make sure you get weavers before being shot wound massively boost him. I'd love there to be synergy but a mans gotta feel dirty about pulling these shenanigans.
Latro_ wrote: aye thats why there is faction keyword and normal keywords especially for that purpose.
...
A big hope I have for the daemons codex is some kinda decent relic/strat that overrides normal summoning e.g. a portal type deep strike thing.
Also glad one of my predictions came true happens from time to time
That armour and axe relic are nice, gonna always go for the added protection myself but lets hope daemons get a strat to buy extra relics like most codex books thus far have had.
Do we know what a daemonic axe is? not sure that is even in the index and might point to some nice weapon options on units
Lew1001 wrote:In my mind I only used Tzeentch daemons up to now for the Brims 4++ and -1 from Changling. Maybe nerfed into the ground is wrong but without those cheap 4++ saves and changling all my old uses for tzeentch have gone.
The index has been out for 6 months, it's not like you've been collecting brimstones for years to abuse some rules. Even if you had though: what did you think was going to happen? Did you really expect GW to leave the unit broken?! Serves you right for chasing broken units.
BoomWolf wrote:You'll need to invest 3 times as many points, and models, in order to reach the sane effect.
That effect is broken bull gak and the game is better off without it.
Lew1001 wrote: The more I think about it, I can't see them letting us use those strats on daemons not from the codex. Maybe they will work but can you imagine keeping Morty in reserve, then T1 deep strike, use invun strat on him and try to cast Miasma. That's an 18 wound model with a 3++/5+++ and maybe -1 to hit and heres the kicker its immune to alpha strike, even reserving magnus to make sure you get weavers before being shot wound massively boost him. I'd love there to be synergy but a mans gotta feel dirty about pulling these shenanigans.
It's true, it might not even work. Which again, would suck the big one, but we'd just have to deal with it. To be honest though, I think 40 Genestealers getting a T1 charge might be better than a measly Daemon Primarch doing the same
Honestly we'll just have to wait and see. I'm really excited about the changes and what will be wrought from them. I just hope it's good
To be honest folks are now gonna spam small units of brims to create batallions soley to mine CPs for deep strike
Be very interested to see the wording of that strat because currently each unit has its own version of a reserve rule. What with the only half your units can deploy this way, if you can passivly use a CP to deep strike stuff down i guess units that have access to it are gonna need to have some kinda keyword to allow you to keep them back.
be quite funny deep striking in 30 brimstone horrors (or 30 anything) in a conga line... all kinds of tactics open up
FudgeDumper wrote: The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
Because the new one looks like a fun characterful model and the old one looks like a bland, boring, mess.
The new one also has different heads, bellys, tentacles and arms. Allowing some customisation.
Also being plastic, it would be very easy to alter further if you desire.
But essentially for me the new model is a good representation of the fluff. Where as the old one is not.
All your points are complete blasphemy.
Point 1: Son, this is not Pokemon. I'm not trying to argue that the new model is bad, I'm saying its a very expensive single pose model which you will need multiples of. And last generations beast also had a lot of character, its only flaw being a single pose, just like the new one.
Point 2: Oh please, didn't you see the reveal videos? The different face/stomach options is a band aid and it is so obvious its sad.
Point 3: A non argument. If GW had made the new beast of Nurgle out of dog poop it would have been even easier to convert. The new model's body is also a single segment so good luck with any conversions.
Point 4: Totally invalid seeing as both models are basically just fat snails with 2 appendages and a bunch of tentacles on the head. This is proof of your biased stance.
Stop trying to defend a point just for the sake of defending. GW messed up, period.
Christ you couldn't sound more condescending if you tried could you?
deep strike 30 plague bearers in an arch conga infront of your opponent 9" away charge one unit and hope for the charge... move the rest of the chargers towards other units along the conga then engage them during pile in... can't attack em but for 210 pts ye potentially stopping many units shooting
FudgeDumper wrote: The new beast of Nurgle actually have a lot in common with the last generations beast of Nurgle. It astounds me that so many seem to hate the old beast of Nurgle but praise the new, they both have the same type of body and exactly the same arm pose just reversed. I guess what people didn't like about the old beast was that it only had one pose... Oh guess what, the new one also only has one pose! I guess that's what 40 years of expertise gets you.
Because the new one looks like a fun characterful model and the old one looks like a bland, boring, mess.
The new one also has different heads, bellys, tentacles and arms. Allowing some customisation.
Also being plastic, it would be very easy to alter further if you desire.
But essentially for me the new model is a good representation of the fluff. Where as the old one is not.
All your points are complete blasphemy.
Point 1: Son, this is not Pokemon. I'm not trying to argue that the new model is bad, I'm saying its a very expensive single pose model which you will need multiples of. And last generations beast also had a lot of character, its only flaw being a single pose, just like the new one.
Point 2: Oh please, didn't you see the reveal videos? The different face/stomach options is a band aid and it is so obvious its sad.
Point 3: A non argument. If GW had made the new beast of Nurgle out of dog poop it would have been even easier to convert. The new model's body is also a single segment so good luck with any conversions.
Point 4: Totally invalid seeing as both models are basically just fat snails with 2 appendages and a bunch of tentacles on the head. This is proof of your biased stance.
Stop trying to defend a point just for the sake of defending. GW messed up, period.
Christ you couldn't sound more condescending if you tried could you?
EnTyme wrote:Glad to see FudgeDumper found the new thread after he ended up getting the Death Guard thread locked.
Just stop engaging with or even mentioning him and you can prevent threads from being locked.
Hey mister mod, can this guy leak us more specific information here? I found literal scans of the entire book in the 8th edition thread and that wasn't banned... right?
Latro_ wrote: To be honest folks are now gonna spam small units of brims to create batallions soley to mine CPs for deep strike
That'll definitely be an option.
All the better to deep strike flamers with. Lol
Maybe I am wrong, but will we even be allowed to use the deepstrike stratagem more than once or to better explain it, for something more than one unit? Are those stratagems exempt from the once per phase, ala, only usable once at the beginning of the game?
Or, you know, click the 'Mod' button and get HIM locked, rather than the thread. Or click the 'Ignore' button and let him suffer in silence.
Just don't take the bait, people.
ON TOPIC:
nagash42 wrote:I an see a rule not letting you take brimstones on their own as they are supposed to be made from dead blues which in turn come from dead pinks.
Yeah, I don't see this happening. There's been too much of it so far to deny taking units of just Brimstones. Besides, there are already rules to encourage taking Pinks; this will just further that thought process.
Latro_ wrote: To be honest folks are now gonna spam small units of brims to create batallions soley to mine CPs for deep strike
That'll definitely be an option.
All the better to deep strike flamers with. Lol
Maybe I am wrong, but will we even be allowed to use the deepstrike stratagem more than once or to better explain it, for something more than one unit? Are those stratagems exempt from the once per phase, ala, only usable once at the beginning of the game?
It looks to me like the stratagem is used during deployment, which per Alpha Legion precedent means open season
Latro_ wrote: To be honest folks are now gonna spam small units of brims to create batallions soley to mine CPs for deep strike
That'll definitely be an option.
All the better to deep strike flamers with. Lol
Maybe I am wrong, but will we even be allowed to use the deepstrike stratagem more than once or to better explain it, for something more than one unit? Are those stratagems exempt from the once per phase, ala, only usable once at the beginning of the game?
Its hasn't been clarified by the leaker, it could act like the Eldar Webway stratagem (limited use) or something like Alpha Legions Forward Operative that can be used more than once. Its only 1 use if stated in the strat - which we don't know yet. And yes strats used before the game are not limited to the 1 per phase rule.
Latro_ wrote: To be honest folks are now gonna spam small units of brims to create batallions soley to mine CPs for deep strike
That'll definitely be an option.
All the better to deep strike flamers with. Lol
Maybe I am wrong, but will we even be allowed to use the deepstrike stratagem more than once or to better explain it, for something more than one unit? Are those stratagems exempt from the once per phase, ala, only usable once at the beginning of the game?
Its hasn't been clarified by the leaker, it could act like the Eldar Webway stratagem (limited use) or something like Alpha Legions Forward Operative that can be used more than once. Its only 1 use if stated in the strat - which we don't know yet. And yes strats used before the game are not limited to the 1 per phase rule.
Good to know. Thanks I wasn't aware that you could use the Alpha Legion stratagem more than once....
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey mister mod, can this guy leak us more specific information here? I found literal scans of the entire book in the 8th edition thread and that wasn't banned... right?
I think rvd means when 8th edition was released, essentially every index was leaked with full-page scans and there was seemingly no issue. Saved me lots of money.
GW themselves showed a bunch of full pages which could then be shared freely,
I don't think Yakface/Dakkadakka would approve of anybody scanning/photographing the thing themselves wholesale and sticking it up on here as it could mean legal hassle
It's only been a couple hours since our first leaker disappeared into the Thames with two thin coats of duct tape over his mouth and a pair of old chaos dreadnoughts tied to his shoes, are we really willing to risk another fellow dakka-ite to the same fate for another couple of leaks?
the_scotsman wrote: It's only been a couple hours since our first leaker disappeared into the Thames with two thin coats of duct tape over his mouth and a pair of old chaos dreadnoughts tied to his shoes, are we really willing to risk another fellow dakka-ite to the same fate for another couple of leaks?
the_scotsman wrote: It's only been a couple hours since our first leaker disappeared into the Thames with two thin coats of duct tape over his mouth and a pair of old chaos dreadnoughts tied to his shoes, are we really willing to risk another fellow dakka-ite to the same fate for another couple of leaks?
So any word of chaos demons as a whole gets a CT equivalent? Or is just the (I assume) single loci for individual demonic factions and obj sec for combined?
SilverAlien wrote: So any word of chaos demons as a whole gets a CT equivalent? Or is just the (I assume) single loci for individual demonic factions and obj sec for combined?
Cephalobeard wrote: In general most Daemons are too expensive. I'm hoping for a proper tuning to horrors, and decent reductions for most everything else.
This depends on the daemons. Plague bearers as a sturdy unit are pretty decently costed, and are up thier with brims for durability. While blood letters kind of give genestealers a run for thier money when it comes to damage output. Plus i think the daemons get tough when you look at how thier buffs and auras and multiply the various aspects of units.
I'd really like them to make the greater daemons playable i'm very interested in playing them. Kind of want to do an earth/wind/fire style army with Nurgle/Tzneetch/Khorne.
I wouldn't put too much stock in daemons getting any major points reductions or turbo special rules.
Due to the Legacy of the Daemons codex from years past (Screamerstar, summoning etc), GW is EXTREMELY conservative in regards to writing rules for them. Eldar got a similar treatment and Tau likely will to.
For Daemons I expect a very, very light power increase. If they're slightly below average now expect them to be mostly average after. Expect most of the bad units to remain bad and the average ones to dip or increase a little on effectiveness. Our psychic powers will always be situational and toned down on order to avoid another Tzeentch debacle. Etc
SilverAlien wrote: So any word of chaos demons as a whole gets a CT equivalent? Or is just the (I assume) single loci for individual demonic factions and obj sec for combined?
Do you know any Daemon Chapters or Legions?
Let me rephrase, for the pedants: have we confirmed if demons have more flexibility to ally due to the lack of a major bonus across their units for staying as a single faction.
Not that their aren't plenty of ways they could could add an equivalent in that way if they wanted. They could have aspects focusing on a single portion of their patron god's portfolio for one, and a bonus for chaos undivided. Or have a generic then traits for different style warbands or hosts. Or base it off worlds in the eye of terror plus a generic. Plenty of ways they could. It won't happen as they lack a <faction> tag, but it doesn't make your response any less inane and deliberately obtuse.
SilverAlien wrote: So any word of chaos demons as a whole gets a CT equivalent? Or is just the (I assume) single loci for individual demonic factions and obj sec for combined?
Do you know any Daemon Chapters or Legions?
Let me rephrase, for the pedants: have we confirmed if demons have more flexibility to ally due to the lack of a major bonus across their units for staying as a single faction.
Not that their aren't plenty of ways they could could add an equivalent in that way if they wanted. They could have aspects focusing on a single portion of their patron god's portfolio for one, and a bonus for chaos undivided. Or have a generic then traits for different style warbands or hosts. Or base it off worlds in the eye of terror plus a generic. Plenty of ways they could. It won't happen as they lack a <faction> tag, but it doesn't make your response any less inane and deliberately obtuse.
That seems like a mild over reaction, considering this is Dakka and it is completely reasonable to assume that someone on here believes the Daemons have their own chapters.
As to your question now that you've kindly rephrased it, I doubt GW would give us any more than this: they probably see this as the Daemons CT equivilent and think that anything more would make Daemons unbalanced. I doubt we're going to see any rewards for variety in Daemon lists, sadly.
Horrors cost the same. Same goes for flamers and screamers. Exalted flamers went up 20 (worth permanent 3 shots and 12" pistol flamers.
Plague drones drop 10 each.
xxhikaru123 wrote: Horrors cost the same. Same goes for flamers and screamers. Exalted flamers went up 20 (worth permanent 3 shots and 12" pistol flamers.
Plague drones drop 10 each.
Hikaru! you're back! Can you confirm the wording of the deep strike strategem? This could be the difference between Codex: Daemons being OK and Codex: Daemons being a saw of all mighty cheese!
xxhikaru123 wrote: Horrors cost the same. Same goes for flamers and screamers. Exalted flamers went up 20 (worth permanent 3 shots and 12" pistol flamers.
Plague drones drop 10 each.
Hikaru! you're back! Can you confirm the wording of the deep strike strategem? This could be the difference between Codex: Daemons being OK and Codex: Daemons being a saw of all mighty cheese!
xxhikaru123 wrote: Horrors cost the same. Same goes for flamers and screamers. Exalted flamers went up 20 (worth permanent 3 shots and 12" pistol flamers.
Plague drones drop 10 each.
Hikaru! you're back! Can you confirm the wording of the deep strike strategem? This could be the difference between Codex: Daemons being OK and Codex: Daemons being a saw of all mighty cheese!
It is that good. Lol during deployment.
Jesus Christ. I might just print off this post and put it up on my wall, Mortagnus lists just got a whole lot more scary.
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So, as always,, make each army better AND CHEAPER? Great job, 
