There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?

Not really common allready. More of a legacy thing. Fw does have a bunch of brokenly good units that are not titan scale though.

Yes and no. Forgeworld has long had a reputation of pay to win. Not an unwarranted reputation in some cases. Well waac players would exploit the ever living crap out of the problem models, compounding the issues. Generally you find if a limitation is being imposed something in the shape of, Krieg's normal forgeworld nerf is run it as "normal" IG/AM, which is BS. The other most common ones, i have seen are power level caps, or point per model limits and one forgeworld option. Again i personally think it BS and a hang up of past editions. If we find a problem child, sure ban or limit the model until GW can address it. Personally have not seen one since chapter approved.

Forgeworld in 8th was not completely out of whack from my experience. Most if the under costed things took a massive nerf hammer in chapter approved. Post chapter approved, forgeworld seems perfectly reasonable to outright over costed from my experience.

At this point i think they are hating on forgeworld for the sake of hating.

I agree. The FW hate doesn't seem to have any real traction nowadays. It's a lingering thing from days of old. Playing at a semi local tournament that allows FW nothing seemed overly powerful.

Prob just a group of TO's who either don't have or can't afford FW. So if they can't play with it they wont let anyone. Bet they all play Imperium with either IG tank armies or parking lot space marines with BobbyG.

SirWeeble wrote:
There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?

Mixed really.
It used to be more common, its on the wane these days.

From a TO perspective I am not really surprised why some people ban forgeworld. Lots of people do not play with it - and more importantly do not know what it does. This can quickly be a problem if you figure that from a TO's perspective the main objective is to ensure everyone has a good time.
Some people like anything goes - others feel putting the pre-CA Greater Daemon of Tzeentch on the table was effectively an insult.

It is still common, but it probably shouldn't be. Forge World is a part of the game. Even GW's own Grand Tournament allows full use of Forge World models and rules.

I don't know much about the local meta, so I don't know the TOs or what anyone plays or their army builds or if FW is common or not. I would guess than FW is not common locally though.

I just got back into the game and I've only played about 2 games and probably won't even join the tourney, as I'm still pokey with the rules. I'm more into painting/modeling, but it's off-putting that an army I have my eyes on is outright banned by the TO - which I've heard is the only guy that does 40k tourneys for the shop.

It's possible to Counts-as Kreigers as standard IG, but due to the Korps building restrictions, I'd be stuck using either Kreig's heavily restricted list - without it's benefits, or buying specific units just for a competitive tourney list - which I'm not going to do.

My current army is Admech and will work in the tourneys, but their unit choices are few and it won't take long for me to get bored of that restriction.

Like many others have said, depends on the local meta. FW has a bad rep in some places, in others you'll get run out of town for suggesting that FW isn't the most balanced thing ever. Rarely do you get any give or take between the two sides, just mindless vitriol because they don't like the other persons view on toy soldiers.

At the end of the day, your best bet is to ask around at your local store/club/area to see if a ban on FW is common. If so, well, then you can make up your own mind if it's worth it to buy FW stuff, but please don't ask, find out it's banned, go out and buy a bunch of FW and then complain about it being banned - that way lies madness. If FW is generally accepted and it's only a few events a year where it's off limits, well, again, up to you to decide if you really want what FW has to offer for most games and either sit out or take a "normal" GW list to events where the restriction is in place.

This is an old, old, old argument that shows no sign of being resolved any time soon and both sides are firmly entrenched with their views, so yeah, play to your meta.

SirWeeble wrote:
I don't know much about the local meta, so I don't know the TOs or what anyone plays or their army builds or if FW is common or not. I would guess than FW is not common locally though.

I just got back into the game and I've only played about 2 games and probably won't even join the tourney, as I'm still pokey with the rules. I'm more into painting/modeling, but it's off-putting that an army I have my eyes on is outright banned by the TO - which I've heard is the only guy that does 40k tourneys for the shop.

Don't know what to tell ya, other than talk to them. Find out why, my guess would be they don't have access to and are unwilling to pay for the books. But if you have the books and all the other updates and they still say no. I think you landed in a questionable meta, with a bad TO.

Previous editions i would have agreed with the no forgeworld standpoint, or at least limited FW models, in 8th i have yet to see a boogeyman after chapter approved.

Hell i have even ordered my first FW models, to flush out my new project, simply because they look better.

SirWeeble wrote:
There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?

I have a decent DKOK army and my local place is just finally coming around to allowing them. Best bet is to talk to them and see if they will cave. Most of the complaints boil down to being to poor to be able to spend the FW premium price.

The forgeworld restriction was very nearly dead...then the FW indexes came out and suddenly you needed blanket bans to just not destroy the game due to how INCREDIBLY poor those books were.

It's bunch of sour whiners as to. No real reason for it. Balance least of all. If they cared about balance they would rather ban gw codexes

The recent chapter approved book seems to have nerfed most of the troublemaker Forgeworld stuff out of tournament lists anyway. Any TO’s still blanket banning are doing it out of momentum and stubbornness now.

 Badablack wrote:
The recent chapter approved book seems to have nerfed most of the troublemaker Forgeworld stuff out of tournament lists anyway. Any TO’s still blanket banning are doing it out of momentum and stubbornness now.

Agreed. That said, policy and perception change slowly.

It used to be a common ruling, mainly due to 3 factors:

1) Highly unbalanced models
2) Harder accessibility for players (both models and rules)
3) Cannot be purchased in LGS

With CA the first point is now mostly moot, but the other 2 still stand, so i do understand when a TO enforces the FW ban.

If anyone takes offense to you bringing R&H after the appalling FW index, FAQ and CA then frankly that is someone you should not be playing with in the first place.

Just to clarify, R&H became pure garbage as a faction.

Recently, we had a local tourney with 10 players. 1500 pts, no models with more than 16 wounds, no special characters, standard missions. Very smooth gameplay.

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Recently, we had a local tourney with 10 players. 1500 pts, no models with more than 16 wounds, no special characters, standard missions. Very smooth gameplay.

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.

Sorry but with gw codexes and indexes wiping floor wrth fw models doesn't hold water

Last time fw was bigger source of broken stuff was closer to 3rd edition

 wuestenfux wrote:

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.

They certainly aren't balanced with the GW units - the vast majority sit between meh and garbage. The ones that were good or OP all got nerfed hard as is usually the case (and, as usual, quite a few okay units got caught in the crossfire).

And yet, Gargantuan Squiggoths keep doing very well in tournaments, and Zardsnark is a staple in competitive ork lists.

Selective perception is very strong with people in favor of forgeworld at tournaments.

Considering that the vast majority of FW units I have encountered in 10 years of gaming were both operated with pirated rules and not actually represented by models from forgeworld, I can understand that a TO would ban it from their event - even if I would personally not.

 Jidmah wrote:
And yet, Gargantuan Squiggoths keep doing very well in tournaments, and Zardsnark is a staple in competitive ork lists.

So? That's like saying IG infantry is doing well, Guillimann is doing well etc.

Duh of course FW will also have good units and not just crap. And yes some are broken. But GW codex has lot more of that stuff so if BALANCE is reason then first step should be ban GW codex. That way you get rid of more broken stuff if you want to try to fix balance by stupid sweeping bans of any book that might have broken unit.

As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.

Azuza001 wrote:
My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.

I do make a point of having the actual Imperial Armour book for my models.

This is just dumb, and cheating. People should actually get the rules for their models, whether GW or FW.

Azuza001 wrote:
My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.

You realise that there was an 'improved' eldar codex floating around online during 5th?

And who hasn't had someone tell them a super awesome rule that turned out to be much less impressive when verified?

Everyone should have the actual rules for their units. Most tournaments insist on this (and all of them should)

There used to be a big problem with not knowing which version of FW rules were current but that isn't a problem a the moment.

Yeah that's not a Fw issue , that's straight up (maybe ,and it's a big maybe, Unintentionally) Cheating of the highest degree. Right up there with wrongly calculating upgrades/points costs.

By and large Fw isn't OP, but can quickly turn into rock-paper-sciccors ina smaller game.

Banning FW is just defining the meta...there is nothing wrong with that.

tneva82 wrote:
As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

In my 10 years of playing WH40k I have met two players who had both the forgeworld models and the rulebooks to match.
Almost every other player using forgeworld was proxying some random model or using a cheaper third party model or bulked up a GW model with bits as something that battlescribe let them add to their list, often with no rulebooks whatsoever, neither GW nor FW.
Heck, look into any tactics thread. No one will advise people to actually buy FW models to improve lists. They will advise scratch-building them or using some other model instead.

Requiring the actual rules and the actual FW models would pretty much be the same as banning FW for 99% of the players. Maybe it's the better option since that one DKOK guy doesn't get screwed and all others can simply be told to stop bitching and actually pay FW for their work.

IMHO the only reason to use Forgeworld should be because you want to use one of their models. If you are not using their models, you should not be allowed to use their rules.

FW stuff in general hasn't been a real balance issue outside a couple outliers in any edition of at least the last 10 years and 4 editions, certainly hasnt had anything near the broken record of core GW stuff. When allowed at 5E, 6E and 7E events, FW stuff never really dominated tables, FW wasnt necessary to play at those levels and was far more often than not completely absent from winning lists.

Most issues with FW come from people either making stuff up and claiming its FW (*very common*), playing it wrong or with outdated rules (also very common), or abusing one of the rare outliers (which FW usually nerfs long before GW does their stuff), or from people with deep seated neurosis that cant shake the "it was banned in 4E and should remain so forever" mindset.

Even the stuff banned in 4E really wasn't a big deal.

I always laughed when my local group had a blast with FW in 3e and 4e, and then they were banned at tournaments. We'd watch tournament players gnash their teeth over Iron Warriors heavy support spam and whatnot, and then happily play away with our Leman Russ Vanquishers fighting Baneblades.

There have always been just as bad WAAC models in the primary catalog of GW stuff and usually much more.

So banning FW under the guise of "because FW is broken" is a false reason.

And I'd never participate in any event that banned FW models but openly encouraged abuse of the GW waac elements.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.

You realise that there was an 'improved' eldar codex floating around online during 5th?

And who hasn't had someone tell them a super awesome rule that turned out to be much less impressive when verified?

Everyone should have the actual rules for their units. Most tournaments insist on this (and all of them should)

There used to be a big problem with not knowing which version of FW rules were current but that isn't a problem a the moment.

No, I never saw the 5th edition "improved" codex, didn't even know that was a thing.

I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt, he is a stand up guy who is not known for cheating. He showed us where he got the rules from, it was from some random website with posted "rules for fw" as images.

Any how all I am saying is most players don't know forgeworld because of what Jidmah said, people don't normally actually buy forgeworld models they custom make them and download the codex / index from the net. Either way I get it. But I stand by the thought process is simply a case of not knowing their options better and maybe not wanting to deal with it when setting up a tournament. Maybe the OP should ask their tournament organizer why no Forgeworld and just find out if it's lack of understanding of the units or because they feel they are unbalanced or what.

I also find it ammusing the idea of customizing units and the amount of modding some people will do to their own gw units to make it what they want but if you do it to make the unit a fw unit they suddenly get upset.

It's interesting, to me, that people say "we should ban it because we don't know the rules."

If you ban it, how do you learn the rules? Or is that just a way/excuse of banning it permanently?

Its a way of making sure no one has to buy the expensive books to know the rules. People get annoyed that they have to "buy all the books" and having to "buy all the fw books too" makes them very cranky.

Could always just ask people nicely if you can see their books. Show people that you'll treat their stuff with respect and they will probably say yes

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Could always just ask people nicely if you can see their books. Show people that you'll treat their stuff with respect and they will probably say yes

Since when has showing people your rules been optional? I don't know how some of you are playing but for me people need to have their books and they need to be able to show you the rules/datasheets/etc if you want to see them.

Most people with a FW model will tell you the rules when they use them, and not a second earlier.

After all, springing unexpected rules on unsuspecting opponents is part of the power of FW models.

1000pts and Not FW? WOW those TO's are extremely Bias agaisnt FW.

They must have been beaten by a FW unit and couldnt understand that for every 50 FW units yeah there will be a good one that someone will spam... How is that different than GW? Were Riptides not spammed in 7th? Are Dark Reapers not spam in 8th?

At 1000pts thats a pointless rule.

It's this thread again! This topic must come up once a week right?

 Jidmah wrote:
Most people with a FW model will tell you the rules when they use them, and not a second earlier.

After all, springing unexpected rules on unsuspecting opponents is part of the power of FW models.

And same goes for GW codexes that are too expensive for most people to own them all. Hell GW has MORE codexes to buy than FW so you are more likely to have access to all FW rules than GW rules.

Again every arqument used applies to GW codexes or even more so.

 AaronWilson wrote:
It's this thread again! This topic must come up once a week right?

OP here.

I just got back into the game and on this forum a short while ago - that's why i asked, and it don't see anything in the first few pages of this forum on the topic, nor have I seen it since I've come here. I searched the forum to see if I'm being a eejit by reposting a topic that's already beaten to death, and I don't see it anywhere - but the search function seems crappy so I may have missed it. So, no it hasn't been posted already this week, or in a month from what I see.

The thread has stayed up for a while since people keep adding to it though.

I'd be okay with banning Forgeworld units so long as they also banned Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, Mortar Squads, Baneblades, Banehammers, Baneswords, Doomhammers, Hellhammers, Shadowswords, Stormlords, Stormswords, Manticores, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads, Taurox Primes, Ogryn Bodyguards, Bullgryn, Eversor Assassins, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Spiritseers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, Tau Command Suits, and Ork Boyz.

Because if you're going to go and make arbitrary bans, you might as well take some of the actually degenerate gak out with it.

ITT: Baneblades and their variants are "degenerate" but every other non-unique LoW is fine.

 Fafnir wrote:
I'd be okay with banning Forgeworld units so long as they also banned Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, Mortar Squads, Baneblades, Banehammers, Baneswords, Doomhammers, Hellhammers, Shadowswords, Stormlords, Stormswords, Manticores, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads, Taurox Primes, Ogryn Bodyguards, Bullgryn, Eversor Assassins, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Spiritseers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, Tau Command Suits, and Ork Boyz.

Because if you're going to go and make arbitrary bans, you might as well take some of the actually degenerate gak out with it.

As a GK player I can live with this ban hammer list but I'm conflicted because there are no GK models on it.

 Jidmah wrote:
Most people with a FW model will tell you the rules when they use them, and not a second earlier.

After all, springing unexpected rules on unsuspecting opponents is part of the power of FW models.

o_O

You mean like "hey here's my army list, oh you haven't seen that unit? Lemme get you the rules"? Because thats hardly unreasonable.

Are we expecting anyone with an FW mod to have to preemptively explain it before being prompted simply because it is FW and they should always just assume nobody has an idea of what it does and its always going to do something so unique they'd have no clue from looking at the model? Or are we talking about something getting sprung on turn 3 onto an opponent who didnt look at their opponents army/list and ask a question?

 Fafnir wrote:
I'd be okay with banning Forgeworld units so long as they also banned Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, Mortar Squads, Baneblades, Banehammers, Baneswords, Doomhammers, Hellhammers, Shadowswords, Stormlords, Stormswords, Manticores, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads, Taurox Primes, Ogryn Bodyguards, Bullgryn, Eversor Assassins, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Spiritseers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, Tau Command Suits, and Ork Boyz.

Because if you're going to go and make arbitrary bans, you might as well take some of the actually degenerate gak out with it.

never thought id see the day that basic IG troops and Mortars were on people's ban lists

Its a very common rule, because they want to prevent people from bringing BS like the falcion super heavy tank that has 2 volcano cannons on it to just obliterate units a turn. Or cheeky stuff like taking quad batteries that allow you to fill out detachments for a cheap easy +3 command points.

A falchion is 800 points BEFORE you pay for it's quad las. I hope for it's point cost it can kill a unit a turn.

SirWeeble wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
It's this thread again! This topic must come up once a week right?

OP here.

I just got back into the game and on this forum a short while ago - that's why i asked, and it don't see anything in the first few pages of this forum on the topic, nor have I seen it since I've come here. I searched the forum to see if I'm being a eejit by reposting a topic that's already beaten to death, and I don't see it anywhere - but the search function seems crappy so I may have missed it. So, no it hasn't been posted already this week, or in a month from what I see.

The thread has stayed up for a while since people keep adding to it though.

Here's my thread about the same topic. For your reading pleasure.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745145.page

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Its a very common rule, because they want to prevent people from bringing BS like the falcion super heavy tank that has 2 volcano cannons on it to just obliterate units a turn. Or cheeky stuff like taking quad batteries that allow you to fill out detachments for a cheap easy +3 command points.

You do realize you can pay for two Shadowswords and then some for the price of that Falchion, right? So that's your two volcano cannons right there. From a GW source. That's got nearly twice the durability, better CC, and better target picking opportunities (because you can split the volcano cannons across two targets rather than being forced to fire them at just one).

And what detachment uses the Quad Batteries (heavy support) to gain +3 command points? In fact, what are you talking about? If you're talking about Guard Thudd Guns or Rapiers or Quad Heavy Bolters, then heavy weapons teams are better, and if you're talking about Space Marines, they're not called "quad batteries." In fact, there's nothing in any faction ever called a "quad battery."

It's inane rambling like this that makes me wonder if people actually read the forge world stuff.

I mean come on, you're illegalizing my army that I payed for, to play at a tourney I'm paying to be in, for what? I get that there were lingering issues, but right now Death Korps is nowhere near normal guard in terms of competitiveness and the guard aren't banned.

I think as long as GW won't even sell the basic FW rules outside of the FW mail order sales stream, there is going to be a wariness of them.

People say that banning FW is "arbitrary," when it of course is anything but. It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

In Chapter Approved, the points hikes clearly moved nearly all of the FW big stuff into the realm of power level only, which means out of matched play.

For the record, I have no problem with forgeworld. Sure, nearly everything FW I see is the broken bits, which simply isn't true of other books. And while every one of these threads has a Death Korps or R&H player talking about the rules "banning their army," I've never seen those armies at any even that allowed FW. to me, banning FW seems to be cost/benefit thing. Sure, it annoys some people that have expensive models they'd like to use, but it also makes things easier for new players, and cuts down on the pirated rules/converted models thing.

Store owners that can't sell it will do this.

I've had a shop reject me from a tournament for using Forge World models...

...they were Alpha Legion with the upgrade Sprues. As Chaos Marines.

 Polonius wrote:
It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

IOW, it's arbitrary. FW rules and models might have been more difficult to buy back in 1980, before the internet existed, but in 2018 buying FW rules/models and buying "main GW" rules/models use the exact same process. Go to the GW website, put the products you want in your cart, check out and wait for them to arrive. If you're living in 2018 and haven't figured out online shopping yet, well, I don't really know what to say.

You know, I once talked to a gentleman who said "FW is inaccessible for players" while ordering a Bluetooth speaker from Amazon on his phone.

Literally. Ordering. Something. Online. Saying. That. Ordering. Something. Online. Is. Hard.



And if you haven't seen those armies, Polonius, then you're not looking hard enough. I played one at NOVA, and played against one at NOVA, and met several other people who were playing them at NOVA, and I only go to one event per year: NOVA. I don't even look around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ADDENDUM:

Also, by the same logic as "I can't get it in the stores" then we should ban the whole SOB line, and Baneblades, because they're online-only, and all the other Online Only gak (of which there is a ton).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

IOW, it's arbitrary. FW rules and models might have been more difficult to buy back in 1980, before the internet existed, but in 2018 buying FW rules/models and buying "main GW" rules/models use the exact same process. Go to the GW website, put the products you want in your cart, check out and wait for them to arrive. If you're living in 2018 and haven't figured out online shopping yet, well, I don't really know what to say.

Of course it's more difficult than buying Citadel models or rules. It's not a grueling task, but at the very least it's far more expensive. I can buy a GW codex online, at various stores, on ebay, shipped to my house, or with pick up at a GW shop. Unless I'm really dumb, I'll be getting free shipping and two day delivery. FW orders take a week or more, and you pay a lot for shipping.

There is no good reason GW couldn't stock the FW Indexes. That they choose not to continues to create the air that it's a separate product.

It's not arbitrary, you just don't find the rationale compelling.

 Polonius wrote:
I think as long as GW won't even sell the basic FW rules outside of the FW mail order sales stream, there is going to be a wariness of them.

People say that banning FW is "arbitrary," when it of course is anything but. It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

In Chapter Approved, the points hikes clearly moved nearly all of the FW big stuff into the realm of power level only, which means out of matched play.

For the record, I have no problem with forgeworld. Sure, nearly everything FW I see is the broken bits, which simply isn't true of other books. And while every one of these threads has a Death Korps or R&H player talking about the rules "banning their army," I've never seen those armies at any even that allowed FW. to me, banning FW seems to be cost/benefit thing. Sure, it annoys some people that have expensive models they'd like to use, but it also makes things easier for new players, and cuts down on the pirated rules/converted models thing.

When I saw the point increases in Chapter Approved, all I could think of was "Uh oh, some one call the Waaaaahmbulance!"

Banning FW is just silly. It the same fething game system.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You know, I once talked to a gentleman who said "FW is inaccessible for players" while ordering a Bluetooth speaker from Amazon on his phone.

Literally. Ordering. Something. Online. Saying. That. Ordering. Something. Online. Is. Hard.

I've ordered from Amazon, and I've ordered from FW. I feel pretty comfortable saying which one was easier and more convenient. I'm not saying you have to navigate to the ends of the earth and survive the trial by fire to buy FW, but let's not pretend it's as easy as Amazon, and certainly not as easy as buying citadel models.

And if you haven't seen those armies, Polonius, then you're not looking hard enough. I played one at NOVA, and played against one at NOVA, and met several other people who were playing them at NOVA, and I only go to one event per year: NOVA. I don't even look around.

I've played competitive 40k off and on for 15 years, in dozens of stores in four states, plus Adepticon. I haven't played against those armies. I'm not doubting they exist, but they seem a lot rarer than just dumping a couple of FW units into a standard list.

Also, by the same logic as "I can't get it in the stores" then we should ban the whole SOB line, and Baneblades, because they're online-only, and all the other Online Only gak (of which there is a ton).

I didn't use that argument. I used the argument that GW doesn't sell it through their normal channels. they do sell online only stuff through their normal channels, which includes their webstore with pretty low threshold free shipping, or free shipping with in store pick up.

 Polonius wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

IOW, it's arbitrary. FW rules and models might have been more difficult to buy back in 1980, before the internet existed, but in 2018 buying FW rules/models and buying "main GW" rules/models use the exact same process. Go to the GW website, put the products you want in your cart, check out and wait for them to arrive. If you're living in 2018 and haven't figured out online shopping yet, well, I don't really know what to say.

Of course it's more difficult than buying Citadel models or rules. It's not a grueling task, but at the very least it's far more expensive. I can buy a GW codex online, at various stores, on ebay, shipped to my house, or with pick up at a GW shop. Unless I'm really dumb, I'll be getting free shipping and two day delivery. FW orders take a week or more, and you pay a lot for shipping.

There is no good reason GW couldn't stock the FW Indexes. That they choose not to continues to create the air that it's a separate product.

It's not arbitrary, you just don't find the rationale compelling.

Wait so is it more expensive or more difficult?

If it's more expensive... we know why that's not an argument. An SOB squad is like $80 USD for 10, and a DKoK squad is $60 for ten right now. So... yeah. Not more expensive than some GW armies, to be sure.

You can buy a FW index online, on ebay, or shipped to your hose, and it's very easy to get free shipping either with a combined order, with a voucher, or by ordering over a certain amount of stuff. It's really not very difficult.

But yes, shipping takes longer than two days. I suppose that would be a crippling weakness that completely makes banning FW at tournaments.

EDIT: I pretty much routinely order from FW and find it fairly easy to navigate, about as easy as Amazon. Are you saying you somehow can't find the Add to Cart button on FW's website but Amazon's is easier or something? They're literally identical: find product, add to cart, checkout, payment, boom.

Another funny excuse I've heard about banning FW from tournaments:

"Not everyone has access to the stuff for those models like they do a regular unit in the Codex"

People whining because they can't research everyone's list at the bookshelf at the FLGS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

IOW, it's arbitrary. FW rules and models might have been more difficult to buy back in 1980, before the internet existed, but in 2018 buying FW rules/models and buying "main GW" rules/models use the exact same process. Go to the GW website, put the products you want in your cart, check out and wait for them to arrive. If you're living in 2018 and haven't figured out online shopping yet, well, I don't really know what to say.

Of course it's more difficult than buying Citadel models or rules. It's not a grueling task, but at the very least it's far more expensive. I can buy a GW codex online, at various stores, on ebay, shipped to my house, or with pick up at a GW shop. Unless I'm really dumb, I'll be getting free shipping and two day delivery. FW orders take a week or more, and you pay a lot for shipping.

There is no good reason GW couldn't stock the FW Indexes. That they choose not to continues to create the air that it's a separate product.

It's not arbitrary, you just don't find the rationale compelling.

Wait so is it more expensive or more difficult?

If it's more expensive... we know why that's not an argument. An SOB squad is like $80 USD for 10, and a DKoK squad is $60 for ten right now. So... yeah. Not more expensive than some GW armies, to be sure.

You can buy a FW index online, on ebay, or shipped to your hose, and it's very easy to get free shipping either with a combined order, with a voucher, or by ordering over a certain amount of stuff. It's really not very difficult.

But yes, shipping takes longer than two days. I suppose that would be a crippling weakness that completely makes banning FW at tournaments.

EDIT: I pretty much routinely order from FW and find it fairly easy to navigate, about as easy as Amazon. Are you saying you somehow can't find the Add to Cart button on FW's website but Amazon's is easier or something? They're literally identical: find product, add to cart, checkout, payment, boom.

Wow, the snark is strong here. I'm just trying to explain why people feel a way. A way, I should point out, that I don't personally feel. I'm fine with FW. I own plenty and have access to the rules.

However, I try to have empathy for others, and understand why they make decisions I might not agree with. And yes, getting FW rules is both more difficult and more expensive than regular GW rules. You can never impulse buy FW. You never get free shipping (unless buying second hand on eBay or other weirdness). IT's always a bit more of a hassle.

I also know that the people running small store tournaments aren't always hardcore 40k gamers. they might not have the comfort level with all of the rules, and so want to make their life easier.


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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Another funny excuse I've heard about banning FW from tournaments:

"Not everyone has access to the stuff for those models like they do a regular unit in the Codex"

People whining because they can't research everyone's list at the bookshelf at the FLGS.

Why is that a bad reason? 40k is a game of open information, right?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Another funny excuse I've heard about banning FW from tournaments:

"Not everyone has access to the stuff for those models like they do a regular unit in the Codex"

People whining because they can't research everyone's list at the bookshelf at the FLGS.

especially amusing given that books come shrinkwrapped now

Nobody seemed to apply this logic to anything but FW ever. When Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle were mail order direct only for years, nobody wanted to ban them. Nobody seemes to think all the 7E dataslates that could only be obtained through GW's digital offerings should be banned because theyre not available in a store.

You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Another funny excuse I've heard about banning FW from tournaments:

"Not everyone has access to the stuff for those models like they do a regular unit in the Codex"

People whining because they can't research everyone's list at the bookshelf at the FLGS.

especially amusing given that books come shrinkwrapped now

Nobody seemed to apply this logic to anything but FW ever. When Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle were mail order direct only for years, nobody wanted to ban them. Nobody seemes to think all the 7E dataslates that could only be obtained through GW's digital offerings should be banned because theyre not available in a store.

So, there's clearly a gap between why people ban FW, and why they say, although I don't think the gap is as big as people indicate. the implication seems to be that banning FW is due to laziness, or some sort of malice, or intellectual malaise. I think it's probably more due to not caring all that much, and not seeing allowing FW as having benefits in excess of the hassle.

 Polonius wrote:
Why is that a bad reason? 40k is a game of open information, right?

Because it's not my fault someone's compulsion to see every unit in the game isn't as strong as their wallet or Google-fu. You don't have access to the book that my unit's in? Too bad, I've got the book if you or a judge wants to check it, otherwise 'git gud m8'.

 Vaktathi wrote:
especially amusing given that books come shrinkwrapped now

I've heard this rumor but I'm pretty sure I've seen about half of them shrink-wrapped.

 Grimgold wrote:
You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

Yep. And every GW store except one I've been to disallows or discourages Forge World on their tables. Not to mention, I've had them ask me not to use models with third-party bits -sorry I don't want to spend $33.00 for 10 Black Templar shoulderpads when I can get a box of 40 for less. Sorry I wanted a different head on the little plastic man I bought from you. Looks like I'll have to play at the FLGS where they have more than 4 pieces of terrain and three tables instead of one. Woe, woe is me!

 Polonius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Another funny excuse I've heard about banning FW from tournaments:

"Not everyone has access to the stuff for those models like they do a regular unit in the Codex"

People whining because they can't research everyone's list at the bookshelf at the FLGS.

especially amusing given that books come shrinkwrapped now

Nobody seemed to apply this logic to anything but FW ever. When Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle were mail order direct only for years, nobody wanted to ban them. Nobody seemes to think all the 7E dataslates that could only be obtained through GW's digital offerings should be banned because theyre not available in a store.

So, there's clearly a gap between why people ban FW, and why they say, although I don't think the gap is as big as people indicate. the implication seems to be that banning FW is due to laziness, or some sort of malice, or intellectual malaise. I think it's probably more due to not caring all that much, and not seeing allowing FW as having benefits in excess of the hassle.

Right. This is all I've been saying: people's reasons for banning FW are clearly intellectually dishonest, because every argument I've ever heard in favor of it is objectively false.

"Not caring all that much" isn't why you ban something; in fact, with that sort of chill attitude, I'd expect someone who "doesn't care all that much" to allow anything and everything because it's neat and cool, rather than arbitrarily banning stuff because he "doesn't care."

And the problem with FW "having benefits in excess of the hassle" is that.... it doesn't. That's not a call that a TO gets to make, because the TO doesn't have to deal with Forge World at all, except to ensure that people who bring it also bring their rules. It's literally not a hassle for him at all, and the "benefit" is that people can play awesome things that they enjoy that you'd otherwise ban for this "hassle" that doesn't exist.

FW is not automatically known to new GW players. Those players are aware that some GW products are only available online at the GW website. There's no direct link to Forge World so there's no reason for a newby to even know that Forge World even exists.
Also I have seen stores ban tournaments of products that they don't sell. This is the same rationale as banning FW.

Man, you've been to some bad GWs. The only one in my area has painted FW models displayed in store, allows you to use whatever you want (short of a model made mostly of third party bits).

I don't think there's any tournaments in Vancouver that blanket ban FW. Maybe they follow ITC's direction and ban things like Warhound and Phantom level FW, but that's about it.

EDIT: There is a link to Forge World on GW's webstore, right at the bottom.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
FW is not automatically known to new GW players. Those players are aware that some GW products are only available online at the GW website. There's no direct link to Forge World so there's no reason for a newby to even know that Forge World even exists.
Also I have seen stores ban tournaments of products that they don't sell. This is the same rationale as banning FW.

1) This is true. But is that a reason to ban it? Some new players may have been attracted by Forge World alone (me!), and "not knowing it exists" is a reason to teach, not to ban. Forge World isn't some arcane hidden knowledge that only the initiated are allowed to know. Just teach them, don't ban everyone else from enjoying it. (and yes, there is a link to the FW Website on GW's website).

2) As long as this is applied consistently, e.g. to third party bits/models that they don't stock or sell and whatnot.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT: Baneblades and their variants are "degenerate" but every other non-unique LoW is fine.

Eldar Wraithknights and Ork Gargants are overpriced and bad, Knights are mediocre. That covers pretty much all of the GW titans. Baneblade variants are the only ones that are degenerate.

 Polonius wrote:
Of course it's more difficult than buying Citadel models or rules. It's not a grueling task, but at the very least it's far more expensive. I can buy a GW codex online, at various stores, on ebay, shipped to my house, or with pick up at a GW shop. Unless I'm really dumb, I'll be getting free shipping and two day delivery. FW orders take a week or more, and you pay a lot for shipping.

"More expensive" and "more difficult" are not the same thing. FW is more expensive, but so are a lot of "main GW" products. Is it reasonable to ban any kit that costs more than $30, because it's more expensive to buy them?

There is no good reason GW couldn't stock the FW Indexes. That they choose not to continues to create the air that it's a separate product.

The reason is that it's a lower-volume product, and it doesn't make financial sense to print enough additional copies to give each store a sufficient inventory.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT: Baneblades and their variants are "degenerate" but every other non-unique LoW is fine.

Eldar Wraithknights and Ork Gargants are overpriced and bad, Knights are mediocre. That covers pretty much all of the GW titans. Baneblade variants are the only ones that are degenerate.

So degenerate = good?

 Polonius wrote:
I've ordered from Amazon, and I've ordered from FW. I feel pretty comfortable saying which one was easier and more convenient. I'm not saying you have to navigate to the ends of the earth and survive the trial by fire to buy FW, but let's not pretend it's as easy as Amazon, and certainly not as easy as buying citadel models.

What exactly is more difficult about it? Other than the search/browse system, which is the same horrible interface that the main GW store uses, it's almost exactly the same. Add items to your cart, click check out, provide your payment information. If Amazon is more convenient it's only because you probably order from there more often, and have your credit card and address information saved already instead of having to type it in.

I disagree with banning FW from events, but to be honest, GW should sell FW rules, and have them availible from normal 3rd party retailers for discounts, etc...
I understand don't making that with models because FW is more "niche" and don't have the production capability to supply all those retailers. But I don't think FW's books are made in-house. Theres no reason they can't make more on China and sell them like normal GW books.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Man, you've been to some bad GWs. The only one in my area has painted FW models displayed in store, allows you to use whatever you want (short of a model made mostly of third party bits).

Imagine, if you will:

You're playing in a GW store. You have four thousand dollars in spending money from your deployment, and you want to get more Warhammer 40k stuff.

You're on a table, with some other guy that wants to show you how to really use that Deathwatch army you've got. You're playing through the game, having fun...

...and here comes Skurky McSalesdude after every turn.

"So I see you have X and Y, have you taken a look at the Z? Do you want me to put it up front for you with some brushes and paint?"

EVERY. DAMNED. TURN.

Imagine now, taking $4000 and going across town to spend it at the FLGS instead.

If the guy had been like, "Hey, I see what you're doing. If you really want to flesh out this army, it would help to add in some [insert models]. They can really add the blah blah blah blah", I'd have bought stuff. But he was acting more like an overbearing 'just buy this thing' guy than a GW representative that cared about the game.

Oh, this hasn't just happened once. It's happened at every GW store I've been to except one. Pushy, pushy, pushy- I've walked in with a literal shopping list and they still keep trying to shove unrelated stuff on me.
]

Let me start by saying that I think banning FW now in *8th* is silly, but previously I could understand it. Being able to find the rules in 7th and earlier editions was a nightmare, which of the 8+ FW books have the rules for some particular model made it extremely difficult to keep track of all of the FW rules.

Now in 8th, there are three books with *all* of the rules and it is very clear in which books the rules for which units exist. In addition to this you can buy them digitally now so you don't even need to wait a week or two for delivery. Also FW is on the same FAQ schedule that normal GW is on.

I know 8th hasn't been out for all that long so some people may be holding onto previous opinions based on how things were before 8th edition but I have a hard time believing that anyone that legitimately takes a fresh look at FW and how it functions now would think banning it is a good idea for any reason other than "I hate FW!". Which while a reason, it not one that I think most people would consider terribly valid.

I always thought the "rules not available" argument was particularly bunk. Specifically because:

1. Very few people actually sat down and read all the GW codices ANYWAY even though they were supposedly more accessible.

2. You can just browse on over to something like 1d4chan's tacticas and get a decent idea of how any unit in any army plays regardless of whether it's GW or Forgeworld.

Forgeworld is normal now. Folks need to get over it I think.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Of course it's more difficult than buying Citadel models or rules. It's not a grueling task, but at the very least it's far more expensive. I can buy a GW codex online, at various stores, on ebay, shipped to my house, or with pick up at a GW shop. Unless I'm really dumb, I'll be getting free shipping and two day delivery. FW orders take a week or more, and you pay a lot for shipping.

"More expensive" and "more difficult" are not the same thing. FW is more expensive, but so are a lot of "main GW" products. Is it reasonable to ban any kit that costs more than $30, because it's more expensive to buy them?

There is no good reason GW couldn't stock the FW Indexes. That they choose not to continues to create the air that it's a separate product.

The reason is that it's a lower-volume product, and it doesn't make financial sense to print enough additional copies to give each store a sufficient inventory.

What makes you think that if they sold the FW index or imperial armor when it comes out in GW/FLGS stores that it wouldn't sell? Low volume is of their own doing. They'd probably sell a low volume of space marine tactical squads if they didn't stock them in their stores.

Audustum wrote:
I always thought the "rules not available" argument was particularly bunk. Specifically because:

1. Very few people actually sat down and read all the GW codices ANYWAY even though they were supposedly more accessible.

2. You can just browse on over to something like 1d4chan's tacticas and get a decent idea of how any unit in any army plays regardless of whether it's GW or Forgeworld.

Forgeworld is normal now. Folks need to get over it I think.

Also anyone using FW units should have the rules for them so you could just ask to see those rules

 Xenomancers wrote:
What makes you think that if they sold the FW index or imperial armor when it comes out in GW/FLGS stores that it wouldn't sell? Low volume is of their own doing. They'd probably sell a low volume of space marine tactical squads if they didn't stock them in their stores.

It probably wouldn't sell because the models the rules are attached to are a low-volume product line. You don't need to buy a FW index if you aren't buying FW models. And you don't need to buy a FW index if you buy FW models online and decide to throw in the index while you're at it. And you probably don't need to buy a FW index if you're a new player buying your first starter set, which is the main reason codices are worth stocking instead of being a similar low-volume product that is online-only. They just wouldn't sell enough additional copies compared to the current online-only system to justify printing a much larger inventory volume to supply every store with copies.

And remember, GW tried this experiment. It isn't a theory, it's a statement about what has already happened. They stocked FW books for a while, and they mostly just sat on the shelf collecting dust until GW abandoned the experiment and brought all the excess inventory back to their central warehouse.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Also anyone using FW units should have the rules for them so you could just ask to see those rules

That's always been the rule. No codex/index/supporting documentation? You can't use it.

It boils down to the following reasons:

1- The store can't sell it, and they want people advertising the toys they can sell.

2- The TO isn't familiar with it and is scared of it

3- People whine that FW units are 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced'

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What makes you think that if they sold the FW index or imperial armor when it comes out in GW/FLGS stores that it wouldn't sell? Low volume is of their own doing. They'd probably sell a low volume of space marine tactical squads if they didn't stock them in their stores.

It probably wouldn't sell because the models the rules are attached to are a low-volume product line. You don't need to buy a FW index if you aren't buying FW models. And you don't need to buy a FW index if you buy FW models online and decide to throw in the index while you're at it. And you probably don't need to buy a FW index if you're a new player buying your first starter set, which is the main reason codices are worth stocking instead of being a similar low-volume product that is online-only. They just wouldn't sell enough additional copies compared to the current online-only system to justify printing a much larger inventory volume to supply every store with copies.

And remember, GW tried this experiment. It isn't a theory, it's a statement about what has already happened. They stocked FW books for a while, and they mostly just sat on the shelf collecting dust until GW abandoned the experiment and brought all the excess inventory back to their central warehouse.

I don't know when they decided to do that experiment but is it safe to say the game is more popular now than it was then? Heck - they are even putting FW units in chapter approved now - times have changed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What makes you think that if they sold the FW index or imperial armor when it comes out in GW/FLGS stores that it wouldn't sell? Low volume is of their own doing. They'd probably sell a low volume of space marine tactical squads if they didn't stock them in their stores.

It probably wouldn't sell because the models the rules are attached to are a low-volume product line. You don't need to buy a FW index if you aren't buying FW models. And you don't need to buy a FW index if you buy FW models online and decide to throw in the index while you're at it. And you probably don't need to buy a FW index if you're a new player buying your first starter set, which is the main reason codices are worth stocking instead of being a similar low-volume product that is online-only. They just wouldn't sell enough additional copies compared to the current online-only system to justify printing a much larger inventory volume to supply every store with copies.

And remember, GW tried this experiment. It isn't a theory, it's a statement about what has already happened. They stocked FW books for a while, and they mostly just sat on the shelf collecting dust until GW abandoned the experiment and brought all the excess inventory back to their central warehouse.

I don't know when they decided to do that experiment but is it safe to say the game is more popular now than it was then? Heck - they are even putting FW units in chapter approved now - times have changed.

And with that change comes more change. Maybe we will see FW on the shelves in the future! And I am personally hoping for that. But GW's probably not interested in internal reorganization of its distribution just now. Or maybe they are and it will be announced tomorrow! I have no idea.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And with that change comes more change. Maybe we will see FW on the shelves in the future! And I am personally hoping for that. But GW's probably not interested in internal reorganization of its distribution just now. Or maybe they are and it will be announced tomorrow! I have no idea.

As I understand, the reason they don't is because they don't sell nearly as much FW as they do regular GW products. I do at least wish they'd let the stores do orders.

Yeah, I know the reason.

And trust me, I think FW is fine the way it is.

But seeing it in stores will shut all the people up who somehow can't figure out online ordering in 2018.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I always thought the "rules not available" argument was particularly bunk. Specifically because:

1. Very few people actually sat down and read all the GW codices ANYWAY even though they were supposedly more accessible.

2. You can just browse on over to something like 1d4chan's tacticas and get a decent idea of how any unit in any army plays regardless of whether it's GW or Forgeworld.

Forgeworld is normal now. Folks need to get over it I think.

Also anyone using FW units should have the rules for them so you could just ask to see those rules

That too, though that one was covered so I guess I only reluctantly join in beating the dead horse.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, I know the reason.

And trust me, I think FW is fine the way it is.

But seeing it in stores will shut all the people up who somehow can't figure out online ordering in 2018.

Which in itself is a silly argument, considering the average FLGS doesn't even have a lot of items. About 1/3 of my stuff had to be ordered.

I mean, it's not my fault someone can't afford something.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, I know the reason.

And trust me, I think FW is fine the way it is.

But seeing it in stores will shut all the people up who somehow can't figure out online ordering in 2018.

Which in itself is a silly argument, considering the average FLGS doesn't even have a lot of items. About 1/3 of my stuff had to be ordered.

I mean, it's not my fault someone can't afford something.

I mean depending on your interpretation of various religious writ or even your political alignment, it absolutely is your fault that someone can't afford something.

But I digress!

In previous editions the rules for units were harder to acquire and locate than they were for GW units. The 8th ed indices have largely solved this problem especially with them being available digitally.

As for difficulty to acquire FW models are more difficult to order than standard GW kits. Their search is terrible, they are only available on one site (maybe eBay as well, though less often then GW), and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for.

None of this is a reason to ban it and CA goes a long way to help their inclusion. I'd prefer if the GW rules writers also did the FW rules, but as long as they control the points in the end I think it is ok.

Breng77 wrote:
their search is terrible

You know that FW uses the exact same store interface as "main GW", right?

and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for

Kind of like how GW's plastic kits rarely come with all the parts you need, and you have to buy the weapons separately?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean depending on your interpretation of various religious writ or even your political alignment, it absolutely is your fault that someone can't afford something.

But I digress!

It sucks to suck, I guess. I'll wait for the day that the downtrodden masses that can't afford a Sicaran Punisher mob up to seize my means of reduction.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, I know the reason.

And trust me, I think FW is fine the way it is.

But seeing it in stores will shut all the people up who somehow can't figure out online ordering in 2018.

It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Its a very common rule, because they want to prevent people from bringing BS like the falcion super heavy tank that has 2 volcano cannons on it to just obliterate units a turn. Or cheeky stuff like taking quad batteries that allow you to fill out detachments for a cheap easy +3 command points.

But more broken stuff from GW codex is allright because...well just cause some people are sore whiners who want to ban stuff that they don't have regardless of balance.

A lot of it comes down to old school thinking as well. Back years ago Forge world models were like the elite line of models, they look amazing but we're just more expensive and better detailed versions of things in the current line. The avatar of khaine comes to mind when thinking of a forgeworld model I would love to own.

But then they started coming out as a kind of expansion pack kind of thing. And I think that's where the hang up now days comes from. Fw is looked at as "expanded universe" or "expansion units" that some players just don't want or like. And maybe that's why no fw tournaments still exist? Because of the stigma. But it's like a lot of things, changing people's opinions on things they considered to be a long time belief can be very hard to do if they are not open to the idea that they may be wrong or that the situation has changed.

 Polonius wrote:
I think as long as GW won't even sell the basic FW rules outside of the FW mail order sales stream, there is going to be a wariness of them.

People say that banning FW is "arbitrary," when it of course is anything but. It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

Bwahahahahaha buying rules for FW is actually EASIER than GW rules. Just as easy to buy individual book, less books to buy.

In Chapter Approved, the points hikes clearly moved nearly all of the FW big stuff into the realm of power level only, which means out of matched play.

Yeah. GW marketing ploy to ensure gamers buy plastic rather than less profitable resin. Nothing to do with balance.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:


Why is that a bad reason? 40k is a game of open information, right?

You have same chance to get FW rules and getting all FW rules is lot cheaper than getting all GW codex rules. IF you aren't interested don't complain about opponent having units you don't know rules. Should I demand ban dark reapers because I don't have eldar codex?

I think there are lots of reasons, many of them aren't that good nor stand up to reason.

One reason, I think, is it can change the meta.

When there are one or two over powered armies, with specific OP units, it is relatively easy to plan for the tournament.

When you add in Forgeworld, not that it is any more unbalanced than the rest of 40k, there is more to consider, and it becomes harder to write 'all comers' lists. The players who like to have everything planned in advance don't like that.

Personally, I'd love to see a Forgeworld only tournament, just for the sake of difference!

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
their search is terrible

You know that FW uses the exact same store interface as "main GW", right?

and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for

Kind of like how GW's plastic kits rarely come with all the parts you need, and you have to buy the weapons separately?

You do know I can buy gw kits off other sites right which negates your whole argument. If the GW site were the only online source of GW you might have a point, but it is not.

Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Breng77 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
their search is terrible

You know that FW uses the exact same store interface as "main GW", right?

and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for

Kind of like how GW's plastic kits rarely come with all the parts you need, and you have to buy the weapons separately?

You do know I can buy gw kits off other sites right which negates your whole argument. If the GW site were the only online source of GW you might have a point, but it is not.

sort of, most have to do it by phone or something weird like excel spreadsheet ordering, you cant be a webstore with a shopping cart and sell GW merchandise directly through there, hence why outfits like TheWarStore do phone orders for GW.

This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

This is typically done so people only have to pay for the exact items they want as the parts are more expensive from FW and they keep the cost down by not just including everything.


As noted, lots of boxes still lack complete weapons options/upgrades/etc. Box contents consistently containing everything the rules allow is a relatively recent development that doesnt extend to everything.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Man, you've been to some bad GWs. The only one in my area has painted FW models displayed in store, allows you to use whatever you want (short of a model made mostly of third party bits).

Imagine, if you will:

You're playing in a GW store. You have four thousand dollars in spending money from your deployment, and you want to get more Warhammer 40k stuff.

You're on a table, with some other guy that wants to show you how to really use that Deathwatch army you've got. You're playing through the game, having fun...

...and here comes Skurky McSalesdude after every turn.

"So I see you have X and Y, have you taken a look at the Z? Do you want me to put it up front for you with some brushes and paint?"

EVERY. DAMNED. TURN.

Imagine now, taking $4000 and going across town to spend it at the FLGS instead.

If the guy had been like, "Hey, I see what you're doing. If you really want to flesh out this army, it would help to add in some [insert models]. They can really add the blah blah blah blah", I'd have bought stuff. But he was acting more like an overbearing 'just buy this thing' guy than a GW representative that cared about the game.

Oh, this hasn't just happened once. It's happened at every GW store I've been to except one. Pushy, pushy, pushy- I've walked in with a literal shopping list and they still keep trying to shove unrelated stuff on me.
]

This gak right here is why I avoid GW stores if possible. Obviously sometimes I go in for say exclusive models like the Tribune or such or certain paints but yeah.

I did a 6 month stretch in a GW ten years ago and not only was I forced to shove stuff down peoples throat ALL THE TIME, I had to do it to people who had no interest in it. I had to push collectors edition Fantasy books on people who hated fantasy, or LotR on people who only played 40k or Fantasy. Meet those quotas, sell sell sell. We actually lost one of our best customers who would regularly drop a grand a month on stuff because my Manager told him he could not use his Dark Eldar army in the store because it used 3rd party bits to make the old units look good. We never saw him again and he took all that income and his friends to a 3rd party shop down the road.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

@lunawolvesloyalist:

wrong thread. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747159.page

I can order most GW stuff off Amazon without phone ordering, or eBay (new) without phone ordering, in fact I think what you are saying is no longer the case. I just went to the warstore and FLG pages and can add GW items to my cart. So many more options and much easier.

As for why they split models up, it still requires buying multiple kits just to field something, so the reason is irrelevant.

Again that is not a reason to ban FW, but one of the largest reasons I think FW has trouble gaining traction is that those in favor of its inclusion want to pretend that absolutely no difference exists between it and the regular line. That simply is not true.

If your area bans it maybe you try to convince allowing it in a limited amount so that people can become accustomed to it, see that it isn't (or is) a big deal and then move on to more inclusion.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW. (Not that you should do that either.)

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

I wasn't talking about specific cases just speaking in general. I know Chapter approved gutted a lot of super heavies however at the same time also reduced the cost of a lot of things. I'm not even sure we are talking about a tournament here that is running CA.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

Well boohoo: We are talking about banning stuff arbitrarily anyway. You also have failed to point out the problem units.

Also, I say this in general about banning classes of things in tournaments: don't. It is completely stupid and causes more problems than it solves. If there truly are some problem units, then address those, not other units that happen to share a battlefield role or manufacturing department of GW with the OP unit. And even then, you still probably should not ban the problem unit, just adjust the point cost so people can at least use their expensive, painstakingly built and painted toys.

 Xenomancers wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

no, they just have to worry about actual more point-efficient superheavies, like knights, or baneblade variants. banning FW stopped being a soft-superheavy ban a LOOOOONG time ago.

 Grimgold wrote:
You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

Should we ban OOP models and conversions too? The FLGS doesn't sell either of them too...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

It makes marines nowhere near unplayable, I just won a (small) tournament over the weekend using marines sans guilliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

Is there some force other than "I don't have the money" preventing people from buying the same Forge World models and books as I have? There isn't.

It's not my fault another player can't afford something or buy a book to 'prepare' for a model I bought. If they want to 'prepare' for it they can do a little bit of work on Google. Tournaments shouldn't cater to idiots.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

Should we ban OOP models and conversions too? The FLGS doesn't sell either of them too...

I see you creeping on my name I'm, watching you

OOP models aren't advertising for someone that is competing for your income, and most look pretty duffy compared with modern ones. Conversions is a trickier subject, but even FLG, which doesn't have a dog in the fight, limits it to reasonable proxies (and like it or not a proxy is what a conversion is). Convert a biker to be a chaplain on a bike, and it looks like a chaplain on a bike, more power to you, Take this Guy toss an aquilion on him and try to pass it as a chaplain and any reasonable TO will show you the door. Once again though conversions are probably not competing for your dollar, since they will likely be conversion of one GW thing into another thing.

Breng77 wrote:
Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Only if you want to lose every game you play. Playing IG? Better buy some conversion parts to give your veterans/command squads/SWS/etc full loads of plasma/melta, if you build them with just the contents of the kit you have a trash unit that should never appear in anything but a joke list. For all practical purposes you are required to buy multiple kits to assemble a single unit, just like FW models. And at least the FW kits make it clear that you're buying the body and arms separately, while most of GW's plastic kits contain no notification at all that you're going to have to buy extra conversion parts to do anything useful with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights.

So what? Why is it ok to ban my DKoK army, but not imperial knights?

Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good.

Yeah, with the exception of the blatantly overpowered LoW (coincidentally belonging to one of the strongest armies in general) they just aren't that good. What an obvious statement to make.

Plus, what happened to your claim that it's about letting people play a skirmish game without massive models? If it's about the skirmish theme then rules strength shouldn't matter. Even a superheavy tank with weak rules is still a superheavy tank in your "skirmish" game, and plenty of people dislike the addition of flyers/LoW/tank spam/etc regardless of which GW brand logo is on the package.

As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

No, the problem children are in the IG codex.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

I wasn't talking about specific cases just speaking in general. I know Chapter approved gutted a lot of super heavies however at the same time also reduced the cost of a lot of things. I'm not even sure we are talking about a tournament here that is running CA.

Can you name a specific case, though? Because unless you can name AT LEAST one, your point is totally invalid. And even then, I'd bet that for every FW broken unit you can name, GW has at least two.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Most people with a FW model will tell you the rules when they use them, and not a second earlier.

After all, springing unexpected rules on unsuspecting opponents is part of the power of FW models.

And same goes for GW codexes that are too expensive for most people to own them all. Hell GW has MORE codexes to buy than FW so you are more likely to have access to all FW rules than GW rules.

Again every arqument used applies to GW codexes or even more so.

Except one.
You can have a tournament without FW to lessen complexity, general rule problems (balance, unclear and non-functional rules, worse FAQ support), rule piracy, proxies/questionable conversions for the cheese of the month and so on.
You cannot have tournament without GW rules.

 Jidmah wrote:
You cannot have tournament without GW rules.

Sure you can. "Tyranids, SoB, Tau, Ultramarines, and Eldar are banned". Simpler game, fewer rule problems, less incentive for proxying, fewer questionable conversions for cheese of the month (how many counts-as Guilliman abominations do we need, anyway), and so on.

We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

No, it isn't.

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

So was pretty much everything in the index books, and Chapter Approved already hit broad swathes of the FW stuff with rather heavy nerfs. Aside from Malefic Lords and Earthshaker carriages, it's not like FW was terribly successful in competitive events anyway in terms of power gaming lists, it's going to be even less so now.

Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

Voss wrote:
Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Disallowing FW is just an alternate format of 40k, like Highlander or any other restriction a TO could put on list building. Only one detachment? No flyers? Minimum 6 troops? It's their choice, and if it's not a popular choice, attendance will suffer as a result.

Considering you can get FW rules digitally now without having to pay the hilarious amount of duty on books, I don't really see how accessibility is an issue anymore. This isn't the good ol days where the Contemptor Mortis had three different rules come out in four or five months (Aeronautica, Apocalypse 2, WMoAA2, all only available from FW proper.

Voss wrote:
This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

FW rules are also right there in the index. In fact, since all of the FW rules are in the three index books instead of the index books plus codices it's less of a burden to keep track of them. If you want to simplify the rules then you should ban codices and force everyone to use the index rules.

Voss wrote:
Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

And every player has every index and codex right...

This same argument is 100% valid for banning every GW codex. I have only IG codex. Therefore apart from orks and IG all armies are basically full of unfamiliar stuff for me. BAN GW CODEXES! Too much unfamiliar stuff!

At least FW rules are cheaper to collect them all than GW ones...

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Only if you want to lose every game you play. Playing IG? Better buy some conversion parts to give your veterans/command squads/SWS/etc full loads of plasma/melta, if you build them with just the contents of the kit you have a trash unit that should never appear in anything but a joke list. For all practical purposes you are required to buy multiple kits to assemble a single unit, just like FW models. And at least the FW kits make it clear that you're buying the body and arms separately, while most of GW's plastic kits contain no notification at all that you're going to have to buy extra conversion parts to do anything useful with it

You still fail to acknowledge the difference between needing multiple kits to make a model and multiple kits to powergame. There are plenty of perfectly viable builds I can make in IG that require no extra kits. Especially if I am buying multiple infantry boxes just for the bodies. FW does not always make it super clear that you need to buy deprecate kits (the mechanic dress entry just says ork mechanic dread, but the first picture has it with translucent arms, and then the description says it works with any of the arm kits. That could mean those are upgrade parts and thus optional. Some other kits specify body in the title. I will concede that codex entries exist that may require multiple kits, but no kits exist that cannot be used without buying additional kits. More often kits have more stuff than you will ever use. Which if you are then smart makes GW much cheaper than FW because you can buy bits to make more models. Again not saying any of this leads to banning. Just that you would be better served accepting that there is a difference in the product line, and if bans are a thing in your area working on slow acceptance through restricted use, rather than screaming from the roof tops that no difference exists and thus no ban should exist. It simply put isn't a compelling argument, and that many FW players get super huffy about people having fear of the unknown is a major reason many people don't like it.

Breng77 wrote:
You still fail to acknowledge the difference between needing multiple kits to make a model and multiple kits to powergame.

It's not just powergaming, it's playing the game at even a minimal level of competence. Many units are utter trash when built straight out of the box, and require additional parts to be viable.

There are plenty of perfectly viable builds I can make in IG that require no extra kits.

There really aren't. The basic Cadian box has no melta or plasma or heavy weapons of any kind. Your basic troops will require buying additional boxes to include their weapon upgrades.

FW does not always make it super clear that you need to buy deprecate kits (the mechanic dress entry just says ork mechanic dread, but the first picture has it with translucent arms, and then the description says it works with any of the arm kits.

You mean this kit, where the description clearly says "body" in the title, the grayed-out arms tell you that these are parts that are not included, and the text description says that you have to buy the arms separately? If you look at that product page and can't figure out that the arms are a separate purchase that's your problem.

I will concede that codex entries exist that may require multiple kits, but no kits exist that cannot be used without buying additional kits.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns

Plus, many kits only pass your test on a technicality. You can assemble a rules-legal unit, if you don't care about ever winning games, but it would be stupid to ever do it that way. In practical terms an IG infantry squad requires a heavy weapon team and melta/plasma conversion parts to be used in a real game.

More often kits have more stuff than you will ever use.

This is a double-edged sword. Including more stuff than you'll ever use means that you're paying for extra stuff. Buying weapons/arms/etc separately allows you to buy only the models that you want, without having to pay extra for options you aren't going to use.

 Cream Tea wrote:
Disallowing FW is just an alternate format of 40k, like Highlander or any other restriction a TO could put on list building. Only one detachment? No flyers? Minimum 6 troops? It's their choice, and if it's not a popular choice, attendance will suffer as a result.

Dude, I see you're a Swede. This is primarily a US problem, you'd have to be here to see what we're talking about. It's just something old and stupid that we Yanks can't seem to get out from under.

It's a stupid stigma on Forge World. For a long time, people would believe absurd things. I've had shop owners look me in the face and tell me that Forge World isn't official. We've had guys get asked to leave the FLGS/GW store because they play DKoK or Elysian drop troops. As I said earlier, I was told I couldn't participate in a tournament because I had Forge World models- and by that, I mean cosmetic upgrades in the form of Alpha Legion heads, jump packs, and torsos and used Outriders as my bikers (literally every unit I had was in the Chaos Codex, but the intent was for it to look like Heresy-Era Alpha Legion). FFS, I have Sicaran tanks that TO's have told me is 'overpowered', even if some neckbeard guard player blew it up in turn 1.

It's beyond nonsense. It's a holdover from the old days where older players accepted this as law and gospel, and no one can seem to shake it off. As we call it in my area, the 'Paw-paw gamer mentality'.

We get all the excuses:

"Not everyone has access to the information" is a BS excuse, because it's not my problem if someone MUST have every Codex and can't afford books from Forge World.

"Not everyone can afford them" is just as stupid, welcome to 40k- Pay 2 Win before online gaming even existed. Want good units? Spend money, use your cash wisely. That's how it works.

"The TO's aren't familiar with them" isn't my problem, he can read my book if he likes if he needs to. If he can't run a tournament unless he has the unit's stat line memorized, he's unfit to be a TO.

"They are too powerful" sounds like the thing you hear from WAAC Wally who puts down full tank or Knight armies, once they see a Relic Sicaran Omega Tank Destroyer.

It's all basically a bunch of 'house rules' that some places invoked back in the 90's and some of the old neckbeards still think this should be 'the rule'. They complain, because let's face it- some of the old neckbeards complain about literally everything. We have a few that I'm convinced are just showing up to the store to cross their arms and talk about how much better X edition was, and the most gaming I've seen from them is when they open up a smelly box of banged-up metal models and talk about how much better the one-piece beakie models were.

And as I understand it, stores that sell GW products should NOT be banning Forge World models from play on their tables. Tournaments are a different story, but I can honestly tell you that TO's who have 'no Forge World' rules usually have small, sad little tournaments with the same handful of people showing up.

Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

One better: My current league is no FW AND no special characters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

It's not debunking the format, it's debunking the rationality behind it.

It's totally fine to have an emotionally motivated format, but don't try to tout it as "logical" or "reasonable" or even "sane" necessarily.

And yes, it does reduce the number of Titans/Superheavies/OP units... sort of. It depends what game you're playing but if it's 2000 points, then no, all you've accomplished is to alienate a large segment of players. The FW Titans/Superheavies/OP stuff are generally either useless at 2000 points, outperformed by GW equivalents at 2000 points, or are only good because they're misunderstood / not read / people don't know how to play against them yet and learning is hard.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

So, sounds like to me the TO should set a limit on titans and superheavies.

Martel732 wrote:
One better: My current league is no FW AND no special characters.

Show your TO a calendar. It's not 1997 any more.

Both of these quoted instances sound like the TO is playing Tau or Dark Eldar, maybe GSC. A lot of those players incessantly whine about the same things, namely the ones that don't know how to use their army and need to stack the deck to win.

Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Interesting. Is there any specific reason they have a problem with Rick and Morty and Bobby G? Presumably, it's a competitive league, if there's no narrative driving the games and there is prize support at the end. If it is narrative, then perhaps the players who want to bring the Dynamic Duo and Rerolls Geewhillickers to a campaign where the narrative doesn't support it are the problem.

It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Oh. He doesn't know how to use his armies.

People who flip out about Bobby G generally don't. Sounds like you might want to avoid the tournament. In my experience, ones ran like that are being stacked for his pals.

It's not a tournament. It's a league. Of course I wouldn't play in that tournament.

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

@peregrine- no you can field many kits (most) with a level of competive ness without requiring further purchase, it is only for top end min maxing that you require multiple kits. You mention cadian infantry, right now their most common load out is lasguns to act as chaff, no one is putting in heavy/special weapons in there squads. They are putting heavy weapons (mortars mostly) in separate units which can be purchased in their own kit. Most other competitive units in AM don't need extra purchases (taurox, psykers, commanders, mantacore, wyvern, basilisk, leman Russ, sentinels, psykers) Really just scions appear to need added gear if you want to maximize their efficiency.

As for the ork kit no I meant this one https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Ork-Mega-Dread and yes the description tells you the arms are separate but I need to read the description to know that. I don't need to do that for say a deff dread.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

They hate FW and people have a bad habit of showing up with FW units with no pricey rule books to go with them.

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Well, I suppose that makes sense. I mean, I'm a little wary. But since you said it was a league, the guy running it might be encouraging people to create their own unique units and such. Anyone can buy a character, he's probably really encouraging you to customize your HQ units and such to give it flavor.

I mean, I've made my own chapter and it's fun to make 'your dudes'. My Chaplain is a conversion from the Primaris Captain. I'm currently trying to figure out what sort of thing I can use for the Crozius to give them a distinctive flavor.

My base list is from before the BA codex, and so my captain just stands in a gunline. Real unique, I now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

They hate FW and people have a bad habit of showing up with FW units with no pricey rule books to go with them.

1) is emotional, so yeah, I guess hatred motivates people to do a lot of dumb things.

2) cheating is always bad, and if they have a problem with people cheating, they should examine the people for other methods of cheating as well. I know a bunch of buddies who use battlescribe and don't own their GW codexes and miss rules all the time - though it's usually accidental and a rule that benefits them. I always tell them to simply own and read their codex; the same thing I would tell to someone with a FW model but not the rules (or the rules from Battlescribe or whereever).

Also, the books aren't that expensive; they're like 15 quid iirc for the ebook.

It's not cheating, it's just the hassle of finding the docs on their phones during the game because the players are too cheap to get the IA book. The FW thing completely died with the scatterbike for me, but evidently not in my community. My only real bias is that I hate resin.

Martel732 wrote:
My base list is from before the BA codex, and so my captain just stands in a gunline. Real unique, I now.

Kit him up and make him cool, man. Order up some Forge World Blood Angel legion upgrades, make all of your dudes look unique.

Most Leagues have a 'contest' at the end to vote on the coolest army. In the one I did, a guy that one only a handful of games came in second place overall because he made his army unique and cool looking.

Oh my guy is pretty unique; he's a 5th ed captain. Not many players still have a 5th ed space marine captain.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just the hassle of finding the docs on their phones during the game because the players are too cheap to get the IA book. The FW thing completely died with the scatterbike for me, but evidently not in my community. My only real bias is that I hate resin.

Resin is a pain in the butt to deal with, and it's not good for you to breathe the particles from it.

But I actually just print out the stuff from the books, or copy them from someone else. Absolutely no one where I'm at has taken issue with me using this for ONE tank- I'd be a fool to buy the whole book for ONE unit.

The funny part is I'm one of the few players there who faced 5th ed FW units, but I'm not the one pulling for the ban. Heresay and tradition are very powerful.

To the OP- if you don't understand why the TO banned FW just ask him. Maybe he's allergic to resin or maybe he's just being obtuse but in any event you'll have his reason. If you disagree with it (even in principle) then maybe you can discuss it with him and persuade him to lift the ban or at least not implement it at his next event.

To everyone else- vote with your wallets. If you don't agree with the ban then don't go to the event (or just run your own event). You could also talk to those TOs and follow the above advice. If the TO doesn't move from his position then find someone else to run events or do it yourselves.

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Yeah. So? Does that mean we ban the entire game? No. When there are messes there are messes, but forgeworld is not the source of most of those problems anymore.

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

Can you cite an example of your claim? One thing from FW that is strictly better than the other? The only thing I can think of is the Leman Russ Annihilator being better than the Vanquisher, but that has more to do with the Vanquisher being bupkis than the Annihilator being godly.

 Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

Doubly so now that Primaris Psykers and Spiritseers saw no real change of importance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

ITT: people with no actual experience of forge world units and how mediocre 99% of them are screaming and crying because they feel violated for having to put up with someone else's choice of toy soldiers.

 Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

One of my local TO's still bans FW because of the Fire Raptors. That's pretty much it. He says there are other "issues" as well but won't glean that information.

FW is not used for matched play or tournaments in my area. Basically it is only used for friendly games with your opponent's consent, not pick-up games. I won't go into whether that is right or wrong but to answer the OP, banning FW is not that uncommon.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

Tournaments typically arent free, if the TO is running an event someone paid to enter, then I dont see it as unreasonable at all that they should be familiar with the complete rules of the game.

Thats not being bratty, unreasonable, or stamping feet. At that point the player has paid for something, and if the TO cant deliver, the event needs a new TO.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

Can you cite an example of your claim? One thing from FW that is strictly better than the other? The only thing I can think of is the Leman Russ Annihilator being better than the Vanquisher, but that has more to do with the Vanquisher being bupkis than the Annihilator being godly.

Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

Incorrect. Forge World is part of the game, and rather common. If you're not competent enough to look at a book that someone brought, or do the research yourself- you should not be a TO. Or at least, you'll earn a reputation as an incompetent one.

 MarsNZ wrote:
I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

Tournaments are free where you're from?

I guess it's easy to show your ass in a forum thread about tournaments when it becomes blatantly clear you've never been in a real one.

 Karhedron wrote:
FW is not used for matched play or tournaments in my area. Basically it is only used for friendly games with your opponent's consent, not pick-up games. I won't go into whether that is right or wrong but to answer the OP, banning FW is not that uncommon.

I would say it's uncommon in the tournament circuit. The biggest tournament leagues in the U.S. allow Forgeworld.

I'm not sure anyone has the stats or knowledge to answer on a FLGS level though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

One of my local TO's still bans FW because of the Fire Raptors. That's pretty much it. He says there are other "issues" as well but won't glean that information.

I mean if hiw issue is with Fire Raptors than he should just ban those. No sense telling Krieg and Renegades to take a hike because of a unit they can't even use.

 Xenomancers wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

lliu wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

Nobody is stalking you, nobody is making attacks against anything except objectively silly ideas you promote. Trust me, I don't have that kind of spare time. Neither do any of the other people you've accused of also being me and stalking you. Turns out that when you post a lot, people reply...especially when you post a lot of dismissively phrased comments like "I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this" that are far from reality.

Audustum wrote:
I'm not sure anyone has the stats or knowledge to answer on a FLGS level though.

On the FLGS level, nearly all of them that I've been to allow it. Some didn't a LONG time ago, but now most don't mind. Earlier in the year a TO at a FLGS said 'no Forge World' and the Shop Owner told him he could host his tournament elsewhere. Most of the FLGS stores that I've been to in the last few years have been owned by actual 40k Gamers that actually think the models are cool.

Xenomancers wrote:Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

Relative to a base Predator, the base Sicaran is a little undercosted, yes. But a 200ish point tank being like 15-20pts or something too cheap isn’t exactly meta-definingly OP, particularly when it doesn’t synergise particularly well with any Stratagems and is soft-limited in spammability by the Relic rule.

I’ll grant you the Fire Raptor is OP post-Chapter Approved. That thing did not need a points drop. But can you name any others post-CA? The assertion that ForgeWorld is OP seems pretty shaky when out of their hundreds of units they have one unit identified as solidly OP and one sorta-maybe-yeah-ok-a-bit. For the most part, FW is unbalanced in that it is firmly underpowered. My go-to example is one you should be comfortable with - compare the Space Marine superheavies with the Guard Codex superheavies.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Most people familiar with power-gaming forum talk could reel off lists of OP units in GW Codexes/Indexes, yet I dare say very few FW units similarly OP. You’re correct that sheer quantity means GW will have more OP units than FW, but are you contending that FW has proportionally more OP units than GW?

kombatwombat wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

Relative to a base Predator, the base Sicaran is a little undercosted, yes. But a 200ish point tank being like 15-20pts or something too cheap isn’t exactly meta-definingly OP, particularly when it doesn’t synergise particularly well with any Stratagems and is soft-limited in spammability by the Relic rule.

I’ll grant you the Fire Raptor is OP post-Chapter Approved. That thing did not need a points drop. But can you name any others post-CA? The assertion that ForgeWorld is OP seems pretty shaky when out of their hundreds of units they have one unit identified as solidly OP and one sorta-maybe-yeah-ok-a-bit. For the most part, FW is unbalanced in that it is firmly underpowered. My go-to example is one you should be comfortable with - compare the Space Marine superheavies with the Guard Codex superheavies.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Most people familiar with power-gaming forum talk could reel off lists of OP units in GW Codexes/Indexes, yet I dare say very few FW units similarly OP. You’re correct that sheer quantity means GW will have more OP units than FW, but are you contending that FW has proportionally more OP units than GW?[/quote

Of course not. I'm on the side that it's foolish to ban FW.