Hello and good morning all.

Just wanted to ask what is the current state of Tyranids so far, I recently picked up the new codex and some models to start building a collection together, so just wanted to see if from a competitive front, how they are doing?.

Cheers all

Pretty solid alround army from what I understand. This may diminish slightly with newer codex releases if power creep sets in but hopefully GW learnt their lesson from 6/7th ed.

Lots of options as always, they can be very competitive

Competitive but not a pick up and win army. They have all the tools to be a top table army (horde, speed, firepower, psychics) but are surprisingly a very finesse playstyle. In the hands if a skilled player though they are devastating.

I think they are a really good army that can be play multiple ways. We don't really know exactly how good they are yet. Having so many options it will take some time to really figure how strong they are. My guess is they are a top 5 codex by the time we get everyones dex. Right now they are top 3-4.

Post codex: Absolutely top tier...but not for free, you're still gonna have to earn your wins.

ERJAK wrote:
Post codex: Absolutely top tier...but not for free, you're still gonna have to earn your wins.

^This.

I've played against Tyranids this edition and those have been the most tactical, hard fought games I've ever played (I've lost against IG as well but those were not skilled victories on behalf of the Guard player, kind of like the token victories of Eldar in 7th), the only reason I won my most recent game against Nids was because my opponent made a game changing tactical error; but up until that point it was anyone's game.

From what I've experienced, Tyranids are THE best faction in 8th as far as rules go; they have potential to make tough lists but there are no go to lists; they have potential to stand up against any list but still require skill to pull a victory; and they offer so many different styles of play that can be mixed and matched and no gamestyle is better than the others.

They're really fun, really good, and have a ton of options. There seems to be a lot of viable ways to play them right now.

Heavy venom cannons on -1 to hit carnifexes with BS 3+ are pure cheese. They are gonna need a non-trivial points increase. Tyranids also have too many mortal wound sources that are too cheap currently. I guess the tournament scene will tell the tale.

Eh, maybe.
You can only put one HVC on a carnifex, so it's just D3 shots. The gun is pretty nice (for the first time in... ever I think), but it's nowhere near as spammable as lascannons/missile launchers are to imperial armies.

Arson Fire wrote:
Eh, maybe.
You can only put one HVC on a carnifex, so it's just D3 shots. The gun is pretty nice (for the first time in... ever I think), but it's nowhere near as spammable as lascannons/missile launchers are to imperial armies.

I run 4 carni with HVC in my list - the flat 3 damage is incredible. Plus you still get 6 str 7 ap-1 shots if you are at 24 inches too.

Indeed. As I said, it's a nice gun.
I'm just disagreeing that it's 'pure cheese'.

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy venom cannons on -1 to hit carnifexes with BS 3+ are pure cheese. They are gonna need a non-trivial points increase. Tyranids also have too many mortal wound sources that are too cheap currently. I guess the tournament scene will tell the tale.

As opposed to a Twin-Lascannon, Missile Launcher BS 2+ Ven Dreadnought?

Arson Fire wrote:
Eh, maybe.
You can only put one HVC on a carnifex, so it's just D3 shots. The gun is pretty nice (for the first time in... ever I think), but it's nowhere near as spammable as lascannons/missile launchers are to imperial armies.

I guess the 9 carnifex lists are just my imagination, then.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy venom cannons on -1 to hit carnifexes with BS 3+ are pure cheese. They are gonna need a non-trivial points increase. Tyranids also have too many mortal wound sources that are too cheap currently. I guess the tournament scene will tell the tale.

As opposed to a Twin-Lascannon, Missile Launcher BS 2+ Ven Dreadnought?

Yeah, because the carnifex is much cheaper AND gets -1 to be hit. Oh, and free cover all the time with Kraken.

Martel732 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Eh, maybe.
You can only put one HVC on a carnifex, so it's just D3 shots. The gun is pretty nice (for the first time in... ever I think), but it's nowhere near as spammable as lascannons/missile launchers are to imperial armies.

I guess the 9 carnifex lists are just my imagination, then.

I guess so.

People are playing lare amounts of Fex's lists, just b.c its not a tournament list doesnt mean players are not playing it.

Tournament lists =/= common players.

I don't mind the carnifex being very strong, it just needs to pay for its capabilities.

Martel732 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Eh, maybe.
You can only put one HVC on a carnifex, so it's just D3 shots. The gun is pretty nice (for the first time in... ever I think), but it's nowhere near as spammable as lascannons/missile launchers are to imperial armies.

I guess the 9 carnifex lists are just my imagination, then.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy venom cannons on -1 to hit carnifexes with BS 3+ are pure cheese. They are gonna need a non-trivial points increase. Tyranids also have too many mortal wound sources that are too cheap currently. I guess the tournament scene will tell the tale.

As opposed to a Twin-Lascannon, Missile Launcher BS 2+ Ven Dreadnought?

Yeah, because the carnifex is much cheaper AND gets -1 to be hit. Oh, and free cover all the time with Kraken.

You know? People would take you more seriously if what you said even made sense.

You say that you play a list with 4 fexes, and yet you don't even know which fleet gives them cover.

Sorry, meant Jormungandr. I keep getting that one confused with kraken for some reason. I play against 9 I said. It's hard to keep track of all the OP things the Nids are throwing at me when I play against them.

Tyranids are extremely good. Swarms in 40k are currently very, very strong, and Nids get access to swarms that don't care about Morale. This is one of the biggest failings of this edition so far, IMO. Far more things (quite possibly everything) should be vulnerable to Morale in some fashion because 8th removed pretty much anything that was good at killing huge units of troops. Yes, I'm aware you can kill the synapse but that's easier said than done.

It's good to see Nids up there towards the top of the tree for once though. It's been a long time since they were even half-decent. It's also worth bearing in mind they haven't had any balance changes yet due to the timing of their Codex versus CA so there's still time to adjust the outliers.

Cheers all for the comments and information.

Glad to hear Tyranids are doing well currently , with lots of varied options for units and lists.

Slipspace wrote:
Tyranids are extremely good. Swarms in 40k are currently very, very strong, and Nids get access to swarms that don't care about Morale. This is one of the biggest failings of this edition so far, IMO. Far more things (quite possibly everything) should be vulnerable to Morale in some fashion because 8th removed pretty much anything that was good at killing huge units of troops. Yes, I'm aware you can kill the synapse but that's easier said than done.

It's good to see Nids up there towards the top of the tree for once though. It's been a long time since they were even half-decent. It's also worth bearing in mind they haven't had any balance changes yet due to the timing of their Codex versus CA so there's still time to adjust the outliers.

Killing synapse is difficult sometimes but once the synapse is gone their low leadership makes nid swarms drop like flies. The synapse system does punish shooting armies that can't shoot synapse creatures with wounds lower than 10, but I'm completely OK with that for some reason.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Tyranids are extremely good. Swarms in 40k are currently very, very strong, and Nids get access to swarms that don't care about Morale. This is one of the biggest failings of this edition so far, IMO. Far more things (quite possibly everything) should be vulnerable to Morale in some fashion because 8th removed pretty much anything that was good at killing huge units of troops. Yes, I'm aware you can kill the synapse but that's easier said than done.

It's good to see Nids up there towards the top of the tree for once though. It's been a long time since they were even half-decent. It's also worth bearing in mind they haven't had any balance changes yet due to the timing of their Codex versus CA so there's still time to adjust the outliers.

Killing synapse is difficult sometimes but once the synapse is gone their low leadership makes nid swarms drop like flies. The synapse system does punish shooting armies that can't shoot synapse creatures with wounds lower than 10, but I'm completely OK with that for some reason.

There are honestly precious few synapse options that are characters with less than 10 wounds. 1) the prime, only really good in warrior heavy lists (which are good but rare) and 2) Neurothropes, amazing HQ option, I would be surprised if you didn't see at least 1 or 2 of these in each list (but rarely more) 3) malanthropes, forgeworld... got a lot more expensive in CA. Still good, but going to be much rarer because of the (slightly too much) increased cost.

So really it's 1 or 2 neurothropes your worried about.

 Lance845 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Tyranids are extremely good. Swarms in 40k are currently very, very strong, and Nids get access to swarms that don't care about Morale. This is one of the biggest failings of this edition so far, IMO. Far more things (quite possibly everything) should be vulnerable to Morale in some fashion because 8th removed pretty much anything that was good at killing huge units of troops. Yes, I'm aware you can kill the synapse but that's easier said than done.

It's good to see Nids up there towards the top of the tree for once though. It's been a long time since they were even half-decent. It's also worth bearing in mind they haven't had any balance changes yet due to the timing of their Codex versus CA so there's still time to adjust the outliers.

Killing synapse is difficult sometimes but once the synapse is gone their low leadership makes nid swarms drop like flies. The synapse system does punish shooting armies that can't shoot synapse creatures with wounds lower than 10, but I'm completely OK with that for some reason.

There are honestly precious few synapse options that are characters with less than 10 wounds. 1) the prime, only really good in warrior heavy lists (which are good but rare) and 2) Neurothropes, amazing HQ option, I would be surprised if you didn't see at least 1 or 2 of these in each list (but rarely more) 3) malanthropes, forgeworld... got a lot more expensive in CA. Still good, but going to be much rarer because of the (slightly too much) increased cost.

So really it's 1 or 2 neurothropes your worried about.

Broodlords also have synapse.

Synapse will be harder to remove than you think, a couple Neurothropes in side gants with 50+ genestealers coming to get you and other units like Hive Guard, Trygons etc.. that dont care about Synapse. Your not to worried about eating threw the trash to kill synapse. Your more focus on killing what will hurt you now. Nids are very good at giving you a huge threat to deal with.

How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

Pretty good, flyrants got even better this edition so.

 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

Those Eldar don't take the return fire nearly as well. I'm complaining b/c those things don't die and are far too cheap for their capabilities.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

Those Eldar don't take the return fire nearly as well. I'm complaining b/c those things don't die and are far too cheap for their capabilities.

Carnifex with Spore Cysts, Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Scything Talons and Enhanced Senses comes to 126

Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher comes to 145

Totally comparable units, point for point. Or maybe Dreadnoughts are OP cheese.

If you think that carnifex is fair at 126, I don't know what to tell you. It gets raven guard chapter tactics AND a hive fleet adaptation. Heavy venom cannon gets no penalty for moving, unlike the dreadnought as well.

Also, the dakkafex is rocking the twin devourer, not the talons. I don't know what that does to its cost. Probably way too cheap, still.

 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

HVC Fex is going to have 2 deathspitters also. Not saying 9 HVC fex is a good army but it is a very efficient "tank". Dark reapers on the other hand cost less than a space marine with a missle launcher and probably should cost 50% more than a space marine with a missile launcher for all their bonuses.

Tyranids are just fine in 8th edition. Every game I've played against them has been hard fought and tactical. There's also a variety of playing styles, the Carnifex spam is not the only army variant that can win.

Sorry, deathspitters. I don't know the Tyranid nomenclature well. I just know they make my army disappear.


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 techsoldaten wrote:
Tyranids are just fine in 8th edition. Every game I've played against them has been hard fought and tactical. There's also a variety of playing styles, the Carnifex spam is not the only army variant that can win.

How are they just not rolling you like a chump? What are their weaknesses? I can't find any. It seems everything they have is undercosted.

Martel732 wrote:
If you think that carnifex is fair at 126, I don't know what to tell you. It gets raven guard chapter tactics AND a hive fleet adaptation. Heavy venom cannon gets no penalty for moving, unlike the dreadnought as well.

Also, the dakkafex is rocking the twin devourer, not the talons. I don't know what that does to its cost. Probably way too cheap, still.

The twin Deathspitters with Maggots comes to the same cost, 126. And yes I think it's fine. The Dread gets an additional -1 Save mod, and averages more wounds with each weapon. Dread can also have Raven Guard Tactics should it desire, and access to Character re-roll buffs.

A Razorback with Twin Las costs 120.

To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

HVC Fex is going to have 2 deathspitters also. Not saying 9 HVC fex is a good army but it is a very efficient "tank". Dark reapers on the other hand cost less than a space marine with a missle launcher and probably should cost 50% more than a space marine with a missile launcher for all their bonuses.

I agree on that point, Dark Reapers are far too good for their cost.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Pretty good, flyrants got even better this edition so.

That's quite the statement, are you sure you remember what flyrants were in 7th? Str6 killing vehicles, torax weapons, hit on 6s... Sure, they got a couple of nice things, but in 7th they singlehandedly carried what was the worst codex of the game to the top tables.

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

Definitely top tier. There are lots of different choices for types of list, shooty, melee, Nidzilla, swarm, psyker spam, etc....

Also Nids have really good stratagems, some of the best IMO.

Spoletta wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Pretty good, flyrants got even better this edition so.

That's quite the statement, are you sure you remember what flyrants were in 7th? Str6 killing vehicles, torax weapons, hit on 6s... Sure, they got a couple of nice things, but in 7th they singlehandedly carried what was the worst codex of the game to the top tables.

They would pretty much do the same thing in this edition if you spammed them. You could fit 10 FHT in 2 supreme commands in kraken. Each being able to fallback from assault and shoot and charge. I don't think anyone has 10 flying hive tyrants ready for a big event BUT I'm sure we will see it at some point and it should do pretty well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

I don't think anything Tyranids will be nerfed. Tyranids are not on the same level as Eldar, AM, and Chaos.

Devourers are decent, but they only look good because all of the other options are fairly bad. Remember, Tyranids don't really get rerolls...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

I don't think anything Tyranids will be nerfed. Tyranids are not on the same level as Eldar, AM, and Chaos.

Devourers are decent, but they only look good because all of the other options are fairly bad. Remember, Tyranids don't really get rerolls...

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

The big difference between Tyranids and other armies is that even if Tyranids are powerfull their wins are earned. I agree with what others have said, they are in a very good, and playing agaisn't tyranids is one of the most tactical games you can have in 8th edition.

It has nothing to do with facing a Guilliman parking lot or a IG gunline.

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

I wouldn't say so, all of Tyranid's MC look scary and they can do a fair bit of damage but their lack of invulnerable saves mean they're mince meat against dedicated anti-tank weapons. Their troops are pretty good but they are restricted in movement by having to stay within synapse range and when Nid troops spread out to take objectives, it makes it much easier to assassinate synapse creatures.

Comparing them to guard isn't fair since all guard have to do is set up their gunline and their chaff anti-deepstrike, anti-charge units and they're set.

I don't know if I'd call Nid wins "earned" with their current codex. I guess we'll see how it shakes out. Nids have a much better record in my area than Bobby G now.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

I wouldn't say so, all of Tyranid's MC look scary and they can do a fair bit of damage but their lack of invulnerable saves mean they're mince meat against dedicated anti-tank weapons. Their troops are pretty good but they are restricted in movement by having to stay within synapse range and when Nid troops spread out to take objectives, it makes it much easier to assassinate synapse creatures.

Comparing them to guard isn't fair since all guard have to do is set up their gunline and their chaff anti-deepstrike, anti-charge units and they're set.

Well. If you are only fielding tacticals with missile launchers&flamers then the nid monsters are probably lot scarier!

The -1 to hit stacked on top of free cover is really obnoxious.

A 18" range dedicated ranged model that takes more than 2 fighting phases to kill 1 MEQ is best served in melee. I'm not surprised that you are having problems firing at something that takes an anti-shooting upgrade and uses an hyve fleet adaptation for additional anti-shooting. It's a short ranged model that does nothing in melee, play accordingly.

I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Could post me one of those lists?

The current tyranids are the perfect example of how a top tier army should be. Lots of options, different viable lists, nothing overpowered.

I think nothing about them should be nerfed, they're not even remotely as annoying and broken as AM.

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Martel is just a big negative nancy. Everything always beats his Blood Angels and he's always sore about how everything is always op against BA.

Nids might have the best dex right now but it's not because of OP cheap units. It's because it has FANTASTIC internal balance. There are so few options that have no place. Just about anything will work in a list built to work with it.

As others have noted all these options means you need skill to make it work. Both in understanding how to build and refine your list and how to get it onto the table doing what it needs to do. It takes a lot of understanding to make it really shine on the table and you need to keep up to maximize it's effectiveness. If you slip up the enemy can kick your legs out from under you.

A bad player can have a GREAT nid list and completely fail all his matches.

A bad player can have a GREAT IG list and still be a real uphill battle for his opponents.

Nids have no fire and forget "dummy" tactics. Positioning, distractions, target priority, a real understanding of the pile in mechanics and how to maximize them... You need to really understand these to function.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

I dont know. I have no problems melting screens with an agressor+Azrael blob of death, or assault bolter inceptors, or a twin asscanon razorback loaded with company veterans with SB and Chainswords, and then chargin those carnifexs in meele with any pseudo usefull unit. Those dakkafex are horrible in mele, even a Squad of 5reivers with knives can do work against them. Or some bikers, or a single company champion.

 mrhappyface wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Post codex: Absolutely top tier...but not for free, you're still gonna have to earn your wins.

^This.

I've played against Tyranids this edition and those have been the most tactical, hard fought games I've ever played (I've lost against IG as well but those were not skilled victories on behalf of the Guard player, kind of like the token victories of Eldar in 7th), the only reason I won my most recent game against Nids was because my opponent made a game changing tactical error; but up until that point it was anyone's game.

From what I've experienced, Tyranids are THE best faction in 8th as far as rules go; they have potential to make tough lists but there are no go to lists; they have potential to stand up against any list but still require skill to pull a victory; and they offer so many different styles of play that can be mixed and matched and no gamestyle is better than the others.

And this comment is why I think 8th is the best edition so far despite any diminishing flaws.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

That works only if those fexes are blobbish, which makes using the deathspitters a bit hard and 9 HVC alone are not a good investement of 60% of your army. Sure, they easily take down one vehicle each turn at range 36", but that's hardly game breaking.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

Which are 70pts spent to do nothing but hold the line and maybe get mulched if an enemy model scrapes against it.

And as for the actual carnifexes, you can get 8 for about 1000pts they do an average of 4 shots each at BS4+, that's around 18 hits, 12 wounds against T7/8 tanks, 8 wounds go through on 3+ models for a total of 24dmg: that's 2 small tanks gone or 1 big one. For the same points you could get 21 missile launchers, 14 hit, 9 wound, 8 go through and 28dmg is caused: that's 3 Carnies dead. And that's without the plethora of re-rolls SM has access to.

They aren't OP; they're a great access to some good anti-tank weapons on a unit that can't stand up to dedicated anti-tank fire.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

Which are 70pts spent to do nothing but hold the line and maybe get mulched if an enemy model scrapes against it.

And as for the actual carnifexes, you can get 8 for about 1000pts they do an average of 4 shots each at BS4+, that's around 18 hits, 12 wounds against T7/8 tanks, 8 wounds go through on 3+ models for a total of 24dmg: that's 2 small tanks gone or 1 big one. For the same points you could get 21 missile launchers, 14 hit, 9 wound, 8 go through and 28dmg is caused: that's 3 Carnies dead. And that's without the plethora of re-rolls SM has access to.

They aren't OP; they're a great access to some good anti-tank weapons on a unit that can't stand up to dedicated anti-tank fire.

No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

Spoletta wrote:
No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

So they gain two more Carnies and lose 16 shots. That's 20 base, 10 hit, 7 wound, 5 go through and 10dmg is done: only 1 small tank (unless it's one of the small tanks with 11/12 wounds).

Carnies are no where near OP.

Spoletta wrote:
Could post me one of those lists?

Next time I face one, I'll get a print out. I didn't realize how ignorant i was if Tyranid models because I'm used to spammed flyrants.


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 Lance845 wrote:
Martel is just a big negative nancy. Everything always beats his Blood Angels and he's always sore about how everything is always op against BA.

Nids might have the best dex right now but it's not because of OP cheap units. It's because it has FANTASTIC internal balance. There are so few options that have no place. Just about anything will work in a list built to work with it.

As others have noted all these options means you need skill to make it work. Both in understanding how to build and refine your list and how to get it onto the table doing what it needs to do. It takes a lot of understanding to make it really shine on the table and you need to keep up to maximize it's effectiveness. If you slip up the enemy can kick your legs out from under you.

A bad player can have a GREAT nid list and completely fail all his matches.

A bad player can have a GREAT IG list and still be a real uphill battle for his opponents.

Nids have no fire and forget "dummy" tactics. Positioning, distractions, target priority, a real understanding of the pile in mechanics and how to maximize them... You need to really understand these to function.

IG and Nids does not equal EVERYTHING. Quit with the drama.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

So they gain two more Carnies and lose 16 shots. That's 20 base, 10 hit, 7 wound, 5 go through and 10dmg is done: only 1 small tank (unless it's one of the small tanks with 11/12 wounds).

Carnies are no where near OP.

They hit on 3's with a 10 point upgrade. Plus they have 6 str 7 ap-1 shots at 24. I run mine as Kronos so they are rerolling 1's to hit if they don't move. Not saying they are OP - they are one of the best units in a codex that is full of good units.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

That works only if those fexes are blobbish, which makes using the deathspitters a bit hard and 9 HVC alone are not a good investement of 60% of your army. Sure, they easily take down one vehicle each turn at range 36", but that's hardly game breaking.

They're definitely traveling in these blobs of 3 carnifexes and other stuff. I assume the other stuff is synapse? I thought carnifexes were synapse? I mean, nothing ever rolled morale the whole game.

Martel732 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

That works only if those fexes are blobbish, which makes using the deathspitters a bit hard and 9 HVC alone are not a good investement of 60% of your army. Sure, they easily take down one vehicle each turn at range 36", but that's hardly game breaking.

They're definitely traveling in these blobs of 3 carnifexes and other stuff. I assume the other stuff is synapse? I thought carnifexes were synapse? I mean, nothing ever rolled morale the whole game.

Synapse is not an issue. Realistically every unit will have synapse the entire game unless the Nid player is trying to set up a flank move or making serious errors. The main drawback of synapse is it does not work across different hive fleets - so If you want to take multiple hive fleets you are hurting your overall synapse - it can be problematic. Synapse also does 2 things. #1 it makes you fearless - #2 it makes you ignore instictive behavior (which basically punishes you with -1's to hit if you don't shoot the closest target).

Realistically though 1 Neurothrope can cover your whole backfield and you can't target it with shooting (this allows carnifex to shoot at whatever target they want). Plus it smites at 24" rerolling 1's on psychic tests and it has another power too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

So they gain two more Carnies and lose 16 shots. That's 20 base, 10 hit, 7 wound, 5 go through and 10dmg is done: only 1 small tank (unless it's one of the small tanks with 11/12 wounds).

Carnies are no where near OP.

They hit on 3's with a 10 point upgrade. Plus they have 6 str 7 ap-1 shots at 24. I run mine as Kronos so they are rerolling 1's to hit if they don't move. Not saying they are OP - they are one of the best units in a codex that is full of good units.

Right, that's what I'm trying to argue: the Nid codex should be the standard that all other codeces must compare against. Nids are good and have many options but aren't OP; this supposedly OP and spammable unit can only just take down a small tank with 10 of them all firing their anti-tank guns, even with the extra shots you just mentioned they only put an extra 7W on a tank. Again, trying to argue Nids are not OP.

The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

 Galas wrote:
I dont know. I have no problems melting screens with an agressor+Azrael blob of death, or assault bolter inceptors, or a twin asscanon razorback loaded with company veterans with SB and Chainswords, and then chargin those carnifexs in meele with any pseudo usefull unit. Those dakkafex are horrible in mele, even a Squad of 5reivers with knives can do work against them. Or some bikers, or a single company champion.

A lot of times with the Dakka fex. It's going to have a strange build...like a hybrid build. Instead of taking the +1 to hit upgrade they can take this Acid Maw head instead. So it will have BS4+ and average 12 hits instead of 16 BUT it will now have 4 str 7 ap-5 d3 damage attacks. Plus if it is Kraken it can fall back and charge every turn.

Also how are you getting your aggressors in range with dark angels? Do they also get to infiltrate their units like Raven Gaurd?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

So they gain two more Carnies and lose 16 shots. That's 20 base, 10 hit, 7 wound, 5 go through and 10dmg is done: only 1 small tank (unless it's one of the small tanks with 11/12 wounds).

Carnies are no where near OP.

They hit on 3's with a 10 point upgrade. Plus they have 6 str 7 ap-1 shots at 24. I run mine as Kronos so they are rerolling 1's to hit if they don't move. Not saying they are OP - they are one of the best units in a codex that is full of good units.

Right, that's what I'm trying to argue: the Nid codex should be the standard that all other codeces must compare against. Nids are good and have many options but aren't OP; this supposedly OP and spammable unit can only just take down a small tank with 10 of them all firing their anti-tank guns, even with the extra shots you just mentioned they only put an extra 7W on a tank. Again, trying to argue Nids are not OP.

By this logic, there is one other good codex.

They're not OP at all. You charge them and they're pillow-fisted with hitting on 4+ with four S6 AP0 attacks. If they fall back they can't shoot.

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

I meant the army as a whole. Smite spam, electro grubs, biovores, harpies, etc.

Martel732 wrote:
By this logic, there is one other good codex.

And which Codex is that?

That would be IG.

Martel732 wrote:
That would be IG.

It's like people don't even bother to read anyone's posts anymore...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

Never say never, i'm still dreaming of a day where shooting is no longer the golden standard but is only a 50% of the game, and i can finally take a lot of anti-melee specialists stuff.

Well at least the game is less shooting focused than the launch of 8th, so i guess that we are slowly getting there.

Also, I don't have the codex with me, but the Neuros don't get the 24" range smite, that's only for zoans.

Spoletta wrote:
Never say never, i'm still dreaming of a day where shooting is no longer the golden standard but is only a 50% of the game, and i can finally take a lot of anti-melee specialists stuff.

Well at least the game is less shooting focused than the launch of 8th, so i guess that we are slowly getting there.

Also, I don't have the codex with me, but the Neuros don't get the 24" range smite, that's only for zoans.

Well I play against Tau, IG, Marines, Necrons and Eldar so it's a never for me. I am with you on the dream though.

Necrons are my biggest hope actually, that codex is potentially capable of wiping the meta state clean, they have so many hidden gems there if properly costed that the game pre and post necron could really be completely different. They are bad at long range shoot outs, but at the same time could be a big problem to fight at range.

Tau on the other hand are by biggest fear, i don't expect them getting a codex being a good thing for the game's health.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I dont know. I have no problems melting screens with an agressor+Azrael blob of death, or assault bolter inceptors, or a twin asscanon razorback loaded with company veterans with SB and Chainswords, and then chargin those carnifexs in meele with any pseudo usefull unit. Those dakkafex are horrible in mele, even a Squad of 5reivers with knives can do work against them. Or some bikers, or a single company champion.

A lot of times with the Dakka fex. It's going to have a strange build...like a hybrid build. Instead of taking the +1 to hit upgrade they can take this Acid Maw head instead. So it will have BS4+ and average 12 hits instead of 16 BUT it will now have 4 str 7 ap-5 d3 damage attacks. Plus if it is Kraken it can fall back and charge every turn.

Also how are you getting your aggressors in range with dark angels? Do they also get to infiltrate their units like Raven Gaurd?

No, but they can advance and still shoot, so they are nearly always on range of the screen in turn 1 anyways. And with the 4++ invulnerable bubble they are quite durable, but add some Intercessors to the bubble so they are more sturdy. (With 2W and 3+/4++, intercessors are surprisingly point efficient in tanking everything. Agaisn't small arms fire, the 2W and 3+ does a very good job at soaking wounds. Agaisn't things like plasma or equivalents, that just destroy primaris, the 4++ is here to save the day)
For the Acid Maw upgrade, normally I don't see them use it in Dakkafexes. And even if they buy that instead, is a win. I'm the one charging them, so they only hits on 4+. Thats max 2 models death of a unit of scouts, or Reivers. It is worth it for shuting down 1 or 2 carnifexs (Because they normally are very close for the synapse bubbles)

And if the Tyranid player focus all of his fire to destroy the Azrael bubble... then that means he isn't shooting Sammael and the Ravenwing, or the Venerable Shooting Dreadnoughts in the back.

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

Nah the options for the carapace upgrade are only -
Spine banks - a pretty decent pistol weapon that has 4 str 5 shots for 2 points
or
Sporeocyst - -1 to hit from shooting attacks for 10 point

Chitnin thorns is 5 points and does those mortals on 6's in the fight phase. Usually it's not taken though because it kinda sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

That works only if those fexes are blobbish, which makes using the deathspitters a bit hard and 9 HVC alone are not a good investement of 60% of your army. Sure, they easily take down one vehicle each turn at range 36", but that's hardly game breaking.

They're definitely traveling in these blobs of 3 carnifexes and other stuff. I assume the other stuff is synapse? I thought carnifexes were synapse? I mean, nothing ever rolled morale the whole game.

They wont, though they are taken in broods of up to 3 once they are on the table each Carnifex acts as an indipendant unit rather than a squad of 3. At that point the Synapse is about making sure you don't suffer -1 to hit when targeting an enemy unit that isn't the nearist.

I don't even understand how you're complaining about Carnifexes, especially with HVC. It's like complaining about lascannon razorback spam, without access to rerolls, or a weapon as good as the lascannon.

Woe be upon you when your local group discovers hive guard, and Kronos.

I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

Martel732 wrote:
I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

On average the HVC is better than the Lascannon for the same points... in a vacuum. Lascannons are easier to put on more resilient mounts and have greater access to re-roll auras, lascannons also have a wider range of damage meaning that some days you'll run out of luck and do 1dmg with your lascannons but other days you'll have the perfect roll of all 6s after your entire devastator team hit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

Nah the options for the carapace upgrade are only -
Spine banks - a pretty decent pistol weapon that has 4 str 5 shots for 2 points
or
Sporeocyst - -1 to hit from shooting attacks for 10 point

Chitnin thorns is 5 points and does those mortals on 6's in the fight phase. Usually it's not taken though because it kinda sucks.

Oh right my bad. For some reason I was thinking the carapace upgrades included Thorns. That's what I get for not having my codex with me at work.

Martel732 wrote:
I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

It's way better than a las cannon. 9 potential damage to 6. Same str only 1 less AP (which often doesn't matter because you are just cutting them to an invo save with ap-2 anyways) Vs some things it matters but the flat damage makes up for that alone - it's twice as effective against heavy infantry. Plus it's assault so can move and shoot no problem...even advance if you must and still shoot. Putting it on a -1 to hit platform that hits on 3's rerolling 1's...It's a real nice weapon.

The part I like most about them is Nid's weakness used to be long range anti tank. Now they have a reliable long range damage dealer. No they don't shoot like a guilliman army but...they are also 10 times better than a Guilliman army for obvious reasons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

It's way better than a las cannon. 9 potential damage to 6. Same str only 1 less AP (which often doesn't matter because you are just cutting them to an invo save with ap-2 anyways) Vs some things it matters but the flat damage makes up for that alone - it's twice as effective against heavy infantry. Plus it's assault so can move and shoot no problem...even advance if you must and still shoot. Putting it on a -1 to hit platform that hits on 3's rerolling 1's...It's a real nice weapon.

The part I like most about them is Nid's weakness used to be long range anti tank. Now they have a reliable long range damage dealer. No they don't shoot like a guilliman army but...they are also 10 times better than a Guilliman army for obvious reasons.

Too nice, in my opinion. Way too nice. We'll see if GW agrees.

I still don't see a problem. Devoting 1000 points to a small handful of HVCs is a recipe for disaster in 8th edition. You will lose the objective game every time, and get swamped np.

Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

You are not outclassed in shooting. And if they're running 9 Carnifex you're not outclassed in assault either.

You play an elite list. Elite lists simply don't fare well in 8th edition for the obvious reasons.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

You are not outclassed in shooting. And if they're running 9 Carnifex you're not outclassed in assault either.

You play an elite list. Elite lists simply don't fare well in 8th edition for the obvious reasons.

Can't he just run Baal flamer predators to clear out the chaff and then send in his elite units to mess up the Carnies in CC?

Baal flamer preds? They don't make the cut in any list. Ever. Maybe dakka Baals if they faq them to officially use killshot.

Martel732 wrote:
Baal flamer preds? They don't make the cut in any list. Ever. Maybe dakka Baals if they faq them to officially use killshot.

I have no idea what Baal preds are like, I assumed there were same as Hellforged predators.

Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

It's way better than a las cannon. 9 potential damage to 6. Same str only 1 less AP (which often doesn't matter because you are just cutting them to an invo save with ap-2 anyways) Vs some things it matters but the flat damage makes up for that alone - it's twice as effective against heavy infantry. Plus it's assault so can move and shoot no problem...even advance if you must and still shoot. Putting it on a -1 to hit platform that hits on 3's rerolling 1's...It's a real nice weapon.

Not like Lascannons often come in pairs or anything, or shoot at vehicles (or Tyranid Monsters like Carnifexes) that don't have invuln saves. The described Carnifex is still more points than a Lazorback.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

You are not outclassed in shooting. And if they're running 9 Carnifex you're not outclassed in assault either.

You play an elite list. Elite lists simply don't fare well in 8th edition for the obvious reasons.

Can't he just run Baal flamer predators to clear out the chaff and then send in his elite units to mess up the Carnies in CC?

Well even assuming those were good they still wouldn't be tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer!

Or maybe just drop a lot of Death Company with Lemartes, wipe the screen easily with 3D6 charge range and 40+ attacks that hit on 3+ rerollable and wound on 2+, then charge Captain Smashypants, Mephiston and the rest of the army into the fexes.

Maybe just become a better player too. You very much remind me of the guy we had in our club who always conceded turn 1 or 2 because you killed his one model he hinged his entire gameplan on, and then whined about everything else was OP instead of realizing it was his own fault.

So this thread is basically just Martel whining about nids? It should probably just be locked at this point..

I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

Haven't settled on one yet.

Haven't lost yet

Martel732 wrote:
I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.

Perhaps you should start a thread to find out how well people are doing against Nids. I've only played against them once but I won via tabling, though the battle was an extremely hard fight.

I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

Haven't settled on one yet.

Out of curiosity, is it the same guy running the nid army each time? He/she could just be really good?

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

And if they have a -1 to hit then they don't get the +1 when shooting. I think in the 8th increasing your output is almost always better than trying to get a bit more survivable. With all the rerolls out there, a -1 to hit isn't that bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Haven't lost yet

Play more games. If you are batting a 1.000 in either directions you can't have played that many games. Not with how fast the meta is changes with new codexes being pumped out every other week.

mattblowers wrote:

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

And if they have a -1 to hit then they don't get the +1 when shooting. I think in the 8th increasing your output is almost always better than trying to get a bit more survivable. With all the rerolls out there, a -1 to hit isn't that bad.

They can have both the -1 to be hit and the +1 to hit when shooting.
The -1 to be hit goes in their carapace slot, and is only competing with spine banks, which is just a mediocre short ranged shooting attack which can be fired into or out of combat.
The +1 to hit goes in their head slot, and is competing with several upgrades. But primarily with Acid Maw (a melee weapon which is handy for when all their arm slots are taken up by guns).

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

I have the most issue with the intercept stratagem. If they go first I lose to SS that get buffed and I have to spend 100% of my ground army to bring them down or they will destroy my whole army. If my deep strike hives and trygon forces could counter properly I could probably come back but they can easily drop a big unit of warriors or even a hive tyrant if they are lucky with OP stratagem.
If I go first it's not so bad normally I can kill enough of the reapers to make a game of it.

I've had an incredible run with my nids since the codex dropped. I've been running a kronos gunline with a wall of warriors to great success. I've played a game with them as jormungandr and while I appreciate the cover bonus and the added mobility, I can't tear myself away from rerolling 1's and the amazing combo of soul hunger/deepest shadow.


Every game has been nearly the same outcome, to varying degrees of success from my opponents. I've lost everything but a my warriors, to only losing 4 warriors in a game and most things in between.


While I don't think nids are as powerful as a Guilliman blob or a good Alaitoc death reaper eldar list, I think nids right now are in one of the best places they've been at for nearly a decade.

This is what I've been running recently, and I haven't yet come close to losing a game:

2k Kronos Tyranids
2 Battalion detachments

2x flying hive tyrants, TS, HVC, MRC (warlord has miasma cannon and soul hunger)
2x Tyranid Primes, boneswords, AG, deathspitters
2x3 Ripper swarms
4x3 Warrior broods, boneswords, 2 deathspitters, VC
2x2 Carnifex, enhanced senses, spore cysts, HVC, deathspitters
2x Exocrines

If I had them, I would put in hive guard for sure, but I enjoy the symmetry of this list.


Every game I deepstrike my tyrants into the opponent's field, and the rippers onto objectives. Every game my tyrants die first, then the exocrines, then the warriors get picked off. Everyone ignores the Carnifex because of the -1 to hit.

It really makes things easy.

I've considered using the monstrous acid maw on my carnifex instead of the 3+ to hit, but combining the 3+ with rerolls is awesome. Especially since the are my main source of damage. I've just consigned away the fact that if my carnifex is actually charged by something that WANTS to fight it, its going to die anyways.

But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

Masutaman wrote:
But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

To each his own. I run a different list themed around different things in every game. You don't ask guard or tau players if they get sick of standing and shooting all them time.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

Never faced dark reapers in fortifications. That sounds insane.

It's Martel that has trouble with Carnifex - I use Carnifex. Was just agreeing with him that it's a strong unit. Not as good as dark reapers though.

Probably not, but I think the players in my area just don't have those models. Most of them were 6th ed bandwagon jumpers.

I faced off against [and beat] Tyranids twice on tuesday.

One player ran a CQC heavy list with Trygons, Genestealer, Carnifexes, Warriors, and Hormagaunts. I faced him with my Imperial Guard. His assault broke up when some Genestealers failed their T1 charge, even with re-rolls, and he struck my line piecemeal and my Punisher tank took him apart. It did take then entire antitank shooting of my list to down 2 Carnifexes, though, with the Cadian strategem, and he kept me penned into my deployment, so at the final scoring it was 7-6 in my favor.

The second game, the player ran a shooting list with 4 Gunfexes, a monster that gave -1 to hit all the guys around him, some Warriors, and a lot of Termigaunts, Hormagaunts, and Gargoyles. I faced him with my Sisters of Battle. He didn't try charging me, T1, but he brought on a gunflyrant and gargoyles from deep strike on one side of me and a sporocyst on the other, and at the end of his turn 1 I looked pretty surrounded by a sea of bugs. I had used my scout moves to pull back my meltagun units and leave my flamethrower units on the front line, and he was short on AT power and my entire army was mechanized, so I weathered his shooting pretty well. I counterattacked into the Gargoyles with St.C and my Seraphim [and support from my anti-infantry troops], and destroyed them, breaking through onto his flank. His huge swarm of 'gaunts was protecting his gunfex firebase, and I slowly picked them apart with my tanks and my Seraphim. His infantry eventually thinned out around turn 3, and when his gunfexes came close enough my melta troops came out of hiding to wreck them. It was a very fun game, and it was kind of weird to be charging the Tyranids. In the end, he had nothing left of his army.


Anyway here's my 2c on the Tyranids:
I think that going full melee, while it looks attractive, is a trap. In all the games I've played, the 'stealers and other troops his hard and fast, but then they sort of peter out and lose momentum. Hormagaunts are good at exploiting a breakthrough, but they're not killy enough to make their own. Genestealers can make the breach but they're not good at exploiting it. However, Genestealers and Hormagaunts and Trygons to deliver them aren't cheap, and you really have to be Behemoth to make it work at all, and you're still at 50/50 probability for each unit making it.

Tyranid shooting power is rather impressive, though I'd still be careful. The anti-infantry gunfexes were scary. The Warriors with their heavy-bolter equivalent weapons were pretty good too.



What both the lists I faced had in common was a lack of means to confront vehicles and entrenched infantry, which kind of carried the day in my game as the Sisters of Battle. My anti-infantry units dismounted and hid in cover, shooting at his swarms with their Storm Bolters, and it took a concerted effort from all his Gunfexes to destroy single 5-girl units, which really slowed him down. He was wounding me on 2's, so I can see it being nigh on impossible to break Space Marines and Primaris out of cover. To this end his Warriors picked up some slack. He was almost entirely unable to damage vehicles, even in melee, only tarpit them, and I used my vehicles to effectively screen for my other units.

Perhaps there's a good ranged Tyranid antitank gun, I'm not familiar with the Tyranid codex, but it's something to keep in mind. They're very good at just erasing light and medium infantry, but know how you're going to deal with vehicles when you see them.

Guard have been dominating everyone since 8th dropped, that isn't going to change because Tyranids got chapter tactics.

That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Another is the devourers on Hive Tyrants. dakka flyrants are solid models and should absolutely be kept away from meltaguns.

Hive guard are also a critical component in my opinion, but they're not essential according to tournament placing lists.

How i would have played would have been to drop in my devgants and annihilate as many of your screens as possible with 174 shots. Additionally, I would have my blobs of hormagants get in there as deep as they could and lock things up.

The way to make tyranids work is to give your opponent *required* targets for their shooting. You have to dictate what they shoot and why. If your opponent can pick, they will always target the portion of your army that will do the most damage to them, and you will lose, because tyranids have basically 0 defense.

My guess is that the players you faced probably didn't have that many hormagants. if you're going to run hormagants you need around 60 at minimum in my opinion. Because they die. En masse.

All this complaining about how OP Carnifexes baffles me. You can have Carnifexes. I'm all about Hive Guard, Biovores, Devilgaunts and Genestealers.
Carnifexes OP,,, HA!

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard have been dominating everyone since 8th dropped, that isn't going to change because Tyranids got chapter tactics.

That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Another is the devourers on Hive Tyrants. dakka flyrants are solid models and should absolutely be kept away from meltaguns.

Hive guard are also a critical component in my opinion, but they're not essential according to tournament placing lists.

How i would have played would have been to drop in my devgants and annihilate as many of your screens as possible with 174 shots. Additionally, I would have my blobs of hormagants get in there as deep as they could and lock things up.

The way to make tyranids work is to give your opponent *required* targets for their shooting. You have to dictate what they shoot and why. If your opponent can pick, they will always target the portion of your army that will do the most damage to them, and you will lose, because tyranids have basically 0 defense.

My guess is that the players you faced probably didn't have that many hormagants. if you're going to run hormagants you need around 60 at minimum in my opinion. Because they die. En masse.

The game with Guard wasn't exceptional. He didn't make it through my defense-in-depth. My only observation of use was that the heavy pressure kept me pinned down.

With the Sisters, he did bring a lot of Hormagaunts, but I killed them. None of his infantry out of something like 150, reached my lines, a lot of it was drawn off to fight Seraphim and St. Celestine, and I kept charging his units so he couldn't make the charges he wanted to. His monsters focused on pressing against the bulk of my troops, but blocked his access with my tanks. I had 7 tanks, and he really didn't have a means to kill them. I used my tanks as my screen to hide my fragile units from his Gunfexes, 'gaunts, gargoyles, and warriors, and it worked out very well, because he couldn't actually kill the tanks.



I don't think Carnifexes are anywhere close to OP, but they're soild.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Masutaman wrote:
But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

To each his own. I run a different list themed around different things in every game. You don't ask guard or tau players if they get sick of standing and shooting all them time.

I wouldnt mind getting a Kroot assault specialist in the new dex...

 Marmatag wrote:
That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Ok I'll bite.
Why 87 shots, rather than the 90 shots a full unit of 30 can fire?

ITC rules i suppose, you never play with 20-strong units or 30-strong, you play with 19 or 29, otherwise your opponents gets bonus points.

Oh... those "Great and clever ways to fix the game" that end just being another small annoyance players end up running around, so they don't do anything.

Spoletta wrote:
ITC rules i suppose, you never play with 20-strong units or 30-strong, you play with 19 or 29, otherwise your opponents gets bonus points.

That is just stupid. Stupid rules like this is why I don't bother going to ITC tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Oh... those "Great and clever ways to fix the game" that end just being another small annoyance players end up running around, so they don't do anything.

Exactly.

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do.

Snuh? No army has anything as good as Genestealers or Exocrines.

Spoletta wrote:
ITC rules i suppose, you never play with 20-strong units or 30-strong, you play with 19 or 29, otherwise your opponents gets bonus points.

Where are all these ITC house rulings?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ltQMdeDqYRXOhvdYT3dtUSji3AISvZRM8gDlhOXDaF8/edit

ITC rules were nice in 7th when the game was broken without those, but 8th works without external help.

Spoletta wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ltQMdeDqYRXOhvdYT3dtUSji3AISvZRM8gDlhOXDaF8/edit

ITC rules were nice in 7th when the game was broken without those, but 8th works without external help.

GW - "We're going to make a stripped back simpler version of 40k."
FLG - "That sounds sick! We're just going to add several hundred more rules to 'balance' the game."
GW - "What?"
FLG - "What."

Seriously, talk about blanket treatment; some 20+ units are broken thanks to OP moral ignoring rules, let's make taking any unit above 9 models a bad thing; some SH models are OP, let's nerf all SH; we've just 'simplified' all the scenarios so they're quicker and easier to play, let's tack on 10 more rules that people have to remember before the tournament; etc. etc.

Spoletta wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ltQMdeDqYRXOhvdYT3dtUSji3AISvZRM8gDlhOXDaF8/edit

ITC rules were nice in 7th when the game was broken without those, but 8th works without external help.

Well if you count being broken as working...

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ltQMdeDqYRXOhvdYT3dtUSji3AISvZRM8gDlhOXDaF8/edit

ITC rules were nice in 7th when the game was broken without those, but 8th works without external help.

Well if you count being broken as working...

Care to elaborate?

Dare to claim straight faced 8th ed is not broken? One needs not look further than nearest tournament to see it's still broken piece of junk.

Then top of that the scenarios are lousy encouraging gunline armies coupled with terrain rules that are designed that anything but big boxes are meaningless.

tneva82 wrote:
Dare to claim straight faced 8th ed is not broken? One needs not look further than nearest tournament to see it's still broken piece of junk.

Then top of that the scenarios are lousy encouraging gunline armies coupled with terrain rules that are designed that anything but big boxes are meaningless.

There's still a gap between the effectiveness of shooting and that of CC but it is no where near the gulf that existed in 7th and with each CC army codex that is being released it is getting better (with BA really being the only CC army with a codex that isn't doing well). Tournaments are just showing that Guard are still OP but that doesn't mean the whole of 8th is broken and as we've seen with several of the spammy lists that we had at the launch of 8th, GW is getting on top of OP units and hitting them with nerfs/FAQs/Erratas. Terrain is still a bit meh this edition but at least it isn't the same garbage as 7th where anything with shrouded was basically an auto win.

Actually the ITC rules make the game more balanced. The 19/29 requirement is silly, but the whole concept of the missions is actually really fun.

Progressive kill scoring (your turn, game turn)
Progressive objective scoring (your turn, game turn)
Secondary objectives that you pick, based on what you can achieve vs your opponent

These lead to the more balanced games than you might think.

I mean look at a normal game of 40k, where you have Katherine's wall of 12" 12d6 flamer hits per turn against an assault army. In a normal, non-ITC game, it's decided before you roll any dice. There is no skill, no tactics. But in an ITC game, that opponent could win by using a larger force to hold objectives, and capture secondary position based objectives and actually make a game of it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do.

Snuh? No army has anything as good as Genestealers or Exocrines.

Exocrines aren't even viable dude.

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually the ITC rules make the game more balanced. The 19/29 requirement is silly, but the whole concept of the missions is actually really fun.

Progressive kill scoring (your turn, game turn)
Progressive objective scoring (your turn, game turn)
Secondary objectives that you pick, based on what you can achieve vs your opponent

These lead to the more balanced games than you might think.

I mean look at a normal game of 40k, where you have Katherine's wall of 12" 12d6 flamer hits per turn against an assault army. In a normal, non-ITC game, it's decided before you roll any dice. There is no skill, no tactics. But in an ITC game, that opponent could win by using a larger force to hold objectives, and capture secondary position based objectives and actually make a game of it.

Everything you've just said about what makes ITC better is already in the rules for 8th ed.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually the ITC rules make the game more balanced. The 19/29 requirement is silly, but the whole concept of the missions is actually really fun.

Progressive kill scoring (your turn, game turn)
Progressive objective scoring (your turn, game turn)
Secondary objectives that you pick, based on what you can achieve vs your opponent

These lead to the more balanced games than you might think.

I mean look at a normal game of 40k, where you have Katherine's wall of 12" 12d6 flamer hits per turn against an assault army. In a normal, non-ITC game, it's decided before you roll any dice. There is no skill, no tactics. But in an ITC game, that opponent could win by using a larger force to hold objectives, and capture secondary position based objectives and actually make a game of it.

Everything you've just said about what makes ITC better is already in the rules for 8th ed.

I don't see any mission that offers progressive scoring without random variance, both your turn and game turn, while also allowing you to select secondary objectives based on your opponent's weaknesses.

Maelstrom gets the closest, but most people don't like playing maelstrom.

Honestly - no joke - give the ITC combined missions a try. They are very fun for competitive AND casual games. I highly recommend them, as highly as i can recommend anything in the 40k universe.

CA missions are quite good, basic missions are bad.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't see any mission that offers progressive scoring without random variance, both your turn and game turn, while also allowing you to select secondary objectives based on your opponent's weaknesses.

Maelstrom gets the closest, but most people don't like playing maelstrom.

Honestly - no joke - give the ITC combined missions a try. They are very fun for competitive AND casual games. I highly recommend them, as highly as i can recommend anything in the 40k universe.

CA missions have that now.

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually the ITC rules make the game more balanced. The 19/29 requirement is silly, but the whole concept of the missions is actually really fun.

Progressive kill scoring (your turn, game turn)
Progressive objective scoring (your turn, game turn)
Secondary objectives that you pick, based on what you can achieve vs your opponent

These lead to the more balanced games than you might think.

I mean look at a normal game of 40k, where you have Katherine's wall of 12" 12d6 flamer hits per turn against an assault army. In a normal, non-ITC game, it's decided before you roll any dice. There is no skill, no tactics. But in an ITC game, that opponent could win by using a larger force to hold objectives, and capture secondary position based objectives and actually make a game of it.

Excuse me?

First off, there were only 4d6 flamers, because I had 2 flame tanks. I used the vehicles to barricade the passages between buildings, and stationed gun troops in the buildings to shoot from. I staged a counterattack with my jetpack units against his flank, broke through, and picked apart his infantry from there, charging his squads so they wouldn't be able to charge units they really wanted to. I hid my anti-monster troops, and waited until he came close enough for me to destroy his monsters, because my troops wouldn't last a minute before his fusillade of gunfire. It was fun because it was tactical.

No tactics would have been the first game I played, where it amount to "the tyranids goes that way, the imperial guard stands here and shoots, and whoever is more efficient wins." Even so, screening with infantry is a position-based tactic [if a fairly easily understood and implemented one].

We can argue about the tactical depth of gunline vs. mass melee somewhere else, though.


I do agree that all objectives should be scored at the beginning of your turn, though, which would improve the maelstrom missions dramatically. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the take-and-hold Eternal War missions. Most of the wargames I've played tend to be scored along the lines of "if the Allies hold the bridge at C-AA-7 on turn 10, it's a Allied victory, otherwise, it's a German Victory". What I really hate about Maelstrom is the random objectives, which makes it less about strategy and more about being able to jump through more hoops.

tneva82 wrote:
Dare to claim straight faced 8th ed is not broken? One needs not look further than nearest tournament to see it's still broken piece of junk.

Then top of that the scenarios are lousy encouraging gunline armies coupled with terrain rules that are designed that anything but big boxes are meaningless.

Actually a nid non-spam army won one of the big tournaments in november. He (or she, I do not know the gender) met all of the armies you described and mannage to nibble on all of them.

Basically you waited to be engaged. Which is a byproduct of missions that lack a variety of scoring methods and progressive scoring in general.

Look i'm not knocking you just saying this is a weak point of 40k without good missions.

Armies like Tyranids are more competitive in an environment where they can have multiple paths to victory. If the only option is "charge city" then yeah, it's pretty easy to beat them. Because assault armies are not great in this edition. But the second i can capture 4 points by simply being present in 4 quadrants, for instance, or by having a decent sized force within your board edge, suddenly you have to take the fight to me to get me out of position. And i can somewhat dictate the engagements.

 Marmatag wrote:
Basically you waited to be engaged. Which is a byproduct of missions that lack a variety of scoring methods and progressive scoring in general.

Look i'm not knocking you just saying this is a weak point of 40k without good missions.

Armies like Tyranids are more competitive in an environment where they can have multiple paths to victory. If the only option is "charge city" then yeah, it's pretty easy to beat them. Because assault armies are not great in this edition. But the second i can capture 4 points by simply being present in 4 quadrants, for instance, or by having a decent sized force within your board edge, suddenly you have to take the fight to me to get me out of position. And i can somewhat dictate the engagements.

I don't believe you for a minute when you say close combat is weak. I have leveraged more value out of charging with my one squad of Seraphim, who don't even have close combat weapons, than literally any other unit in my army, save maybe St.C, not just in this game. Play your cards right and CQC is an insanely powerful tool.

I also don't understand what you're asking. I think the missions are best which allow the game to develop naturally, which is why I hate maelstrom. It's a very artificial attempt to get people to play a certain way. I'm very much partial to the "who controls the board at the end of the game" means of scoring. I don't see why progressive scoring is good, anything good it achieves is equally achieved by end-of-game scoring.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do.

Snuh? No army has anything as good as Genestealers or Exocrines.

Exocrines aren't even viable dude.

Wait wat. I don't pay attention to internet wisdom on tactics. I thought Exocrines were the be-all-end-all for those "conpetitive" types.

I think they are fine.

But my problem is I like Hive Guard better, a 6 man unit that can ignore LoS and be in cover all game blocked by LoS with Double Shooting (total of 24 shots) with +1 str and on average higher damage.

IDK about others, but thats why i dont play my Exocrine.

Hive Guard are the best antitank in the Tyrannid codex. A Kronos unit of 6 (rerolling 1's to hit), using the shoot twice stategem, kills a Lehman Russ per turn on average (12 wounds versus tough 8, 3+ save). Exocrine only does roughly 8 wounds using the +1 damage strategem.....and the Exocrine has to stick it's head out to shoot.

Barring a super heavy, I don't think that there are many units in the game that kill a Lehman Russ outright at range in one turn, without character buff/psychic support....

Exocrines, Tyranofexes, and Hive Guard do very similar damage, with Tyranofexes being slightly better vs T8, Exocrines being slightly better vs T7, and Hive Guard having slightly more utility vs infantry targets due to the ignores cover and not needing line of sight.

Hive Guard have become the preferred Tyranid anti-tank at tournament tables because it is much harder to protect big monsters from alpha strikes than it is Hive Guard. A Tyranid player running Exocrines who goes second vs Guard or Marines is losing 1-2 Exocrines before they get a chance to do anything. They can be protected using Malenthropes, Venomthropes, with the right Hive Fleet (always in cover with Jorgmunder), and by hiding them out of line of sight, but all of these approaches have major flaws:

Malenthropes are a major points sink; Venomthropes stop buffing monsters once they take causalities; both Malenthropes and Venomthropes have buff range issues. Running Jorgmundr for the cover bonus means you can't get the re-roll ones buff that Hive Fleet Kronos gives. Trying to hide models as large as Exocrines or Tyranofexes out of line of site is difficult on most tables, and even if you succeed, you now have to move them so that they can shoot, which means you lose both the re-roll one's and the double shooting.

Hive Guard on the other hand can sit behind a piece of cover and shoot all game long. They often never have to move and only get shot at by units that ignore line of sight, making it much more difficult to kill them.

This all means that while the big gun bugs can be strong in lists that are built around them, Hive Guard are generally better for adding an anti-tank unit to most Tyranid lists. It is also worth noting that Hive Guard can be armed with shock cannons, a short range gun that generates extra moral wounds vs vehicles, and deep struck using a Tyrannocyte ('nid drop pod) or the Jorgmundr tunnel strat. This works similarly to drop pod melta units-an alpha strike that kills a tank or two, but then the Hive Guard all die.