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Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 16:43:31


Post by: arhurt


I'm trying to compile some opinions on why Necron rules make them one of the least competitive factions at the moment and what could be done to make them an interesting choice to take and fight against.

I had posted in the Necron tactica thread but wanted to have other players eyes on this. I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts on the matter.

My biggest fear is that they fix the obsiously broken things (trnsports lacking transport keyword and some points reduction) but keep Reanimate as is. It doesn't scale well at all and good opponents can really easily ignore it.

Here's a draft of what I'd have to say to GW about the current state of Necrons. It's mainly gathered from reading the discussions here and some anectodal experiments from playing with them.

I'll start with what has been working great for Necrons:
  • Quantum Shielding: It's great. It sounds alien and is unique to Necrons, is a great rule that is relevant most of the time and feels very rewarding.
  • Reanimation Protocols: Going back to a unique rule that actually puts models back in the table (as opposed to a plain extra save) was very welcome. The rule has issues and I'll discuss them in detail below.

  • Necrons are innacurately perceived as powerful. This is perhaps the greatest hardship on balancing the Necron Codex. On the surface, their rules sound powerful and intimidating, but a somewhat informed opponent can easily focus on the weaknesses and guarantee victory due to Reanimation Protocols inner workings.

    Reanimation protocols issues
  • New rules wins: The new rendition of Reanimation Protocols (RP) feels very thematic, bringing back some of the post "FNP-esque" ruling of 6th and 7th. As much as it feels great though, its current iteration creates some crippling issues that I'll explore below.
  • Negation Issue: The rule can be completely negated by opponent if he manages to wipe your squads. There is nothing the Necron player can do to prevent this and it basically means that the premium in unit cost paid for the special rule is lost.
  • Scale Issue: Reanimation Protocols (RP) as is has a scaling problem in where it is strong in small scale games and loses power significantly as the games scale up. The more power your opponent has to wipe your units, the smaller the effect of RP is. The issue becomes even more significant if they fail to wipe the unit, as the power is at peak efficiency the more rolls you have to make.
  • Please address this issue. As it is a key ability to Necrons and equals a premium on unit costing it should be carefully planned.
  • Army composition issue: RP encourages large units to make maximum use of the ability, but that makes it so Necron Armies have to pay a tactical tax on top of paying a unit point cost tax already. Larger blocks of warriors means costlier base tax for detachments. It all results in Necrons paying several interests on top of the base unit cost that compound into very limited actual build choices. This also results in the army losing in on Command points due to the high tax of its troops choices.
  • Conclusion: The combination of being easily negated by experienced players and the fact that it heavily impacts list-building into either ignoring it (going for Canoptek units or Quantum-shield spam) or sinking points into huge squads that don't do that much (basic infantry with no special wargear) means that Necron Players have a small toolbox to work with.
  • Proposed exploration: Allow rolling of RP after a unit wipe in some fashion. Maybe allow them to bolster other units already on the table (enemies have to wipe ALL warriors to deny warrior RP) or allow Necrons to roll for wiped units (resurrection orbs should do THAT and be cheaper).


  • Tombworld Deployment issues
  • Cool new rule: It should feel like you are the master of a legion that can teleport troops on a whim across the galaxy, but the actual inner workings of the rules makes them just broken and too much a liability.
  • Lack of Transport keyword: The lack of this keyword on our transports means that units arriving from Transportation Beams arrive from reserves and can't move after arriving.
  • Lack of character support: Since you can only bring 1 unit at a time it breaks any type of character synergy as troops are isolated and unsupported, unless the player dedicates extra resources on an additional transport for the supporting characters.
  • Losing the transported units is too great a liability: Since we lose the emergency disembarkation rules and just outright lose our reserved units, on top of the issues above, Necron Players simply don't feel like investing in transports and putting precious points in tomb-world development worth the risk of losing all that investment.
  • Proposed exploration: Consider allowing characters to be beamed over alongside a unit deployed from Tombworld. Give every model able to teleport units onto the table the Transport keyword. Consider some alternative to emergency disembarkation or even just allow the units to safely disembark upon destruction and factor that in the points cost of a transport unit, something that makes Necrons feel even more advanced, ignoring certain perils that other races must consider when transporting units.


  • Lack of character synergy
  • Destroyer Lords are melee beasts, but buff a ranged option.
  • Necron Lords are near useless as we usually invest heavily.
  • Overlords only buff a single unit, as opposed to something like SM chapter masters and their buff auras.
  • Proposed exploration: Explore the Necron Hierarchy. Make Overlords be able to buff more units the more Lords you have, make Lords cheaper and allow them to enhance an Overlord's buffs. Something unique to Necrons. Overlords could get a secondary aura ability based on supporting lords/crypteks.


  • Lack of Psychic power counters
  • Necrons should be somewhat resistant to Psychic powers, especially the ones that deal with Leadership effects.


  • Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 17:31:08


    Post by: Fenris-77


    My biggest issue is with the RP. Those just weren't play tested with an appropriate amount of attention paid to how much the ruleset encourages focused fire. If you rolled those before morale somehow, it might work as intended. It really needs to be addressed though, because it's the suck right now.

    Even just changing the whole mechanic to something like Disgustingly Resilient would be fine with me. Keep the fluff and use a simple mechanic that has precedent in the game. It's not ideal, and lacks character, but at least it would be playable.

    Tombworld deployment is my other hot stove issue, although for me it ranks behind RP in importance. Losing the source of deployment, and thus the associated units, is an awful mechanic - it's too easy to zap the source. If there were another option, say "summon w/in 6" of Necron Lord", as a stratagem, or trait, or equipment that could save the unit, I'd be less concerned.

    The character and psychic issues are likely (hopefully?) to be addressed in a codex anyway, so I'm less concerned about them.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 17:44:22


    Post by: cuda1179


    I wish that monoliths and Nightscythes could have units embark on them again. Or at the very least, allow them to disembark one unit, plus any characters.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 17:47:26


    Post by: Fenris-77


     cuda1179 wrote:
    I wish that monoliths and Nightscythes could have units embark on them again. Or at the very least, allow them to disembark one unit, plus any characters.
    Spitting recycled (or new) Warriors out of Monoliths was when playing Necrons was the most fun.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 17:57:49


    Post by: buddha


    Beyond what's been discussed necron offense is why I think they remain so uncompetitive. Tesla destructors used to be a sweet spot with the strength 7 which was enough to glance any vehicle and wound most infantry on a 2. Almost all vehicles were based around that gun. Now with the new wounding and rend system they are like hitting with a wet paper towel.

    To make matters worse we lack Anti-tank weapons and more specifically anti-multi wound. Take the destroyers main gun. It is almost identical to the DG blight launcher but so hilariously over costed comparatively. Or my other frustration which the doomsday ark which, despite being forced to stand still puts out less damage and shots then a standard leman russ.

    We also lack almost any mortal wound generation which means Hugh invul units like Magnus means we auto lose. Naturally the army doesn't have psykers but we also don't get anything to offset it.

    You can look through the index and see the whole army suffers. So let's summarize:

    No psykers
    Poor offense
    Almost no mortal wound ability
    Low mobility
    High cost
    And broken reanimation

    That is why we are at the bottom.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Beyond what's been discussed necron offense is why I think they remain so uncompetitive. Tesla destructors used to be a sweet spot with the strength 7 which was enough to glance any vehicle and wound most infantry on a 2. Almost all vehicles were based around that gun. Now with the new wounding and rend system they are like hitting with a wet paper towel.

    To make matters worse we lack Anti-tank weapons and more specifically anti-multi wound. Take the destroyers main gun. It is almost identical to the DG blight launcher but so hilariously over costed comparatively. Or my other frustration which the doomsday ark which, despite being forced to stand still puts out less damage and shots then a standard leman russ.

    We also lack almost any mortal wound generation which means Hugh invul units like Magnus means we auto lose. Naturally the army doesn't have psykers but we also don't get anything to offset it.

    You can look through the index and see the whole army suffers. So let's summarize:

    No psykers
    Poor offense
    Almost no mortal wound ability
    Low mobility
    High cost
    And broken reanimation

    That is why we are at the bottom.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 18:24:28


    Post by: torblind


    Monoliths pulling infantry units from battlefield through its eternity gate as in 7th would be nice, would synergize with their slow movement


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 18:27:58


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    It had that rule longer than that. That's from all the way in 3rd ed.
    But it doesn't have it anymore. Because our iconic vehicle just has to be a paper weight now.

    As for transports - necrons should never have conventional transports. Why would they ride around in a vehicle if they can teleport? I would much rather they get around by using some sort of teleport relay, like if you have relay A here and relay B 24" away, a necron unit can instantly pop up in Relay B after entering Relay A.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 18:33:05


    Post by: Grimgold


    I started a thread talking about this a while ago, and since then basically threw up my hands and played other armies. I played dark angels, primaris marines, Black legion, and a few others, seeing the game from new angles and time playing the edition have modified my views on a few things.

    What I said about tomb world deploy is still absolutely true, it's just not a good idea right now. GW has been toying with the idea, the genestealers infestation rule is obviously a derivative, so I hope they've learned enough to fix it. If I ran the zoo, Tomb world deploy would work like this:
    -Happens at the beginning of the movement phase (no alpha strike shenanigans).
    -Units "Disembarking" From tomb world deploy could move afterwards.
    -Being in tomb world deploy would count as being embarked on a transport rather than being in reserves.
    -Units within embankment range of a portal equipped vehicle can re-enter tomb world deploy.
    -If all Portals are lost, units in tomb world deploy are removed as casualties.
    -1 Unit of infantry and/or 1 Independent character can disembark per portal per turn (no more characters bottlenecking an army).

    One thing I was wrong on though is repair protocols, because I misunderstood what the rule is for. I thought it was to make necrons tough, and if that's the measure stick, RP is a horrible failure due to how easy it is to bypass. As I thought about it though, In 8th ed if you want to make a unit tough you add wounds, add model count, give it an invul, or give the unit FnP. There are lots of ways they could have made necrons "tough", but RP isn't like any of them. Instead RP makes necrons more or less immune to getting ground down, you have to strike decisively or not at all when you are fighting Necrons. That's an interesting mechanic, which pairs nicely with the idea of slowly grinding your opponents to dust. Viewed in that light, it being bypassed isn't the issue, that's how you dictate the pace of the fight, the problem is that target prioritization becomes trivial.

    When I say target prioritization becomes trivial it's because necron units that have strong offense have low numbers, and units with high numbers have low offense. So an opponent who isn't asleep at the wheel, just targets your offensive units, removes them and then can basically run the board because you lack any credible offense. I've seen probably a dozen batreps on youtube where that is exactly what happened, the latest was a Glacial Geek where 4 dreads basically took out an entire necron army. So with the problem in plain sight, how do we fix it?

    Lots of people think just reducing points will make necrons viable, and while I think a few things are overpriced and need to be adjusted (gauss cannons for instance), you don't make a unit good by making it cheaper you just make it bargain. If we have learned anything from half a years worth of 8th eds meta it's that good units get used, bargain units get spammed. Instead I think we need to make target prioritization harder by making necron units more rounded, IE: make offensive units tougher and tough units more offensive. Here are my ideas on how to do that:

    Increasing defense on offensive units
    -All Multi wound non-canoptek models get the living metal special rule in addition to RP (it will end up being just one wound per round, but over the course of a game it could be an extra model or twos worth of wounds)
    -Increase the number of wounds on destroyers by 1 per model (takes them out of easy las cannon kill range)
    -Quantum shielding must be equal to or lower than the damage inflicted to negate the damage (upgrade from less than damage inflicted)

    Increasing offense on Tough units
    -Gauss weapons get +1 damage on a to wound roll of a six or more (doubles their effectiveness on T8 units, and increases their effectiveness on t5-t7 units by 50%)
    -My will be done can give a +1 to hit or a +1 to wound chosen at the time the buff is applied (allows gauss to be better against heavy vehicles/monsters, while keeping Tesla good for crowd control)

    With five small changes, suddenly target prioritization becomes much harder, you can go for the high offense units, but they are tougher targets and you won't gut the necrons abilities to hurt you. Of course to sad subtext to this conversation is that the die has already been cast, with a codex coming in march they have already gone gold with codex and if they haven't started printing now, they will be printing soon.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 18:37:55


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    You know, I wonder if it would help sending GW this thread. They do like feedback, so it might be worth it. Then again, it would be odd to just go "hey, read this thread, kthxbye" so idk.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 18:55:46


    Post by: arhurt


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    You know, I wonder if it would help sending GW this thread. They do like feedback, so it might be worth it. Then again, it would be odd to just go "hey, read this thread, kthxbye" so idk.


    If enough people send them the message they are bound to at least give it a read. I'd say its worth the 20 seconds to write it over to 40KFAQ@gwplc.com


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 19:12:11


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    arhurt wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    You know, I wonder if it would help sending GW this thread. They do like feedback, so it might be worth it. Then again, it would be odd to just go "hey, read this thread, kthxbye" so idk.


    If enough people send them the message they are bound to at least give it a read. I'd say its worth the 20 seconds to write it over to 40KFAQ@gwplc.com


    K, done.
    I really hope that's the right place to send it, because it does look like where you send FAQs and not general feedback, but I guess it'll be fine.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 19:15:00


    Post by: arhurt


    It's the only communication channel I know of. Can someone walk over to GW's HQ and nail this post in printed form to their doors?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 19:57:36


    Post by: torblind


    Emailed


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 20:12:51


    Post by: stratigo


    I’d wait until their codex before worrying about what’s wrong with necrons. Even very non competetive index armies have gotten extremely good with the codex


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 20:52:53


    Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


    I bet there will be a strategm that lets you recycle slain Necron Warrior units for CP - have them teleport by Monothliths, Doomscythes etc.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 21:08:42


    Post by: EnTyme


    stratigo wrote:
    I’d wait until their codex before worrying about what’s wrong with necrons. Even very non competetive index armies have gotten extremely good with the codex


    Grey Knights.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 21:13:36


    Post by: Fenris-77


     MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
    I bet there will be a strategm that lets you recycle slain Necron Warrior units for CP - have them teleport by Monothliths, Doomscythes etc.
    What I'd really like to see is a 1CP stratagem that lets you deploy a Tombworld unit without a vehicle (just plain DS). That would fix a lot of problems.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 22:12:02


    Post by: Grimgold


     EnTyme wrote:
    stratigo wrote:
    I’d wait until their codex before worrying about what’s wrong with necrons. Even very non competetive index armies have gotten extremely good with the codex


    Grey Knights.


    That could be the fate that awaits us. Though in all fairness, the early codices were more or less written in a vacuum, before they had the wealth of player feedback they have now. So My hope is that even if they didn't quite get what they did wrong, they at least learned enough about the meta to make necrons competitive in other ways. It's hard to guess what's coming since we don't have any sister factions like space marines do, and GW has been stone cold silent on the issue. We can't even extrapolate based on the CA changes since we barely got any.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 22:42:37


    Post by: EnTyme


    I really hope they listened to feedback, Grim. I played a couple games early in 8th, got blown off the table by weak lists, and decided to shelf the 'Crons in favor of AoS until we get at least something to help us compete.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 22:51:12


    Post by: Odrankt


    RP rolls would not be an issue if we could always use it. Even if it was a -1 modiefer to RP destroyed units that would be a vast improvement over what it is now.

    E.g. say you have a Unit of 5 Destroyers and 1 Heavy D w/ an Overlord or Cryptek. Then on your opponents turn they mass focus on the Destroyers with anything that can do d3-d6 wounds. Well instead of just having the unit become a hot pile of wasted points and leaving a HQ in the open. What if we were allowed to roll RP for destroyed units but on a 6+ a model from the unit comes back? That would make every <Dynasty> infantry unit w/ RP at least 33% more survivable. And if it was allowed to be buffed by a Cryptek for 5+ that would be amazing.

    Imagine a unit of 20 warriors RPing every single turn even when destroyed. Would give the Necrons the defensive we need and would stop people exploiting our weakness.

    Also, I think there should be a <Dynasty> faction rule for QS alone. I'd love it if we were able to re-roll failed QS rolls without using a CP. Sure you can't re-roll a Re-roll but at least we aren't spending our precious CP on them if we get a faction wide rule that allows it. Or if we rolled 2 dice and discared the highest.

    Something needs to be done anyway and I don't think the suggestions I have made will "break" the game but will at least but our faction from a "push over" to one that is nearly as resilient as DG but have a better way of surviving.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 23:22:53


    Post by: Grimgold


    I imagine we'll get the usual gamut of subfaction rules.

    -One dynasty ignores cover (mephrit)
    -One dynasty gives a -1 to hit (Nihilakh)
    -One dynasty gets an extra attack on charges (Novokh)
    -One dynasty that's spooky and gives -1 to leadership (Maynarkh)

    Then the Sauhtekh which will give +1 to leadership and some other benefit like being able to advance and fire rapid fire weapons.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 23:38:16


    Post by: torblind


     Odrankt wrote:
    RP rolls would not be an issue if we could always use it. Even if it was a -1 modiefer to RP destroyed units that would be a vast improvement over what it is now.

    E.g. say you have a Unit of 5 Destroyers and 1 Heavy D w/ an Overlord or Cryptek. Then on your opponents turn they mass focus on the Destroyers with anything that can do d3-d6 wounds. Well instead of just having the unit become a hot pile of wasted points and leaving a HQ in the open. What if we were allowed to roll RP for destroyed units but on a 6+ a model from the unit comes back? That would make every <Dynasty> infantry unit w/ RP at least 33% more survivable. And if it was allowed to be buffed by a Cryptek for 5+ that would be amazing.

    Imagine a unit of 20 warriors RPing every single turn even when destroyed. Would give the Necrons the defensive we need and would stop people exploiting our weakness.

    Also, I think there should be a <Dynasty> faction rule for QS alone. I'd love it if we were able to re-roll failed QS rolls without using a CP. Sure you can't re-roll a Re-roll but at least we aren't spending our precious CP on them if we get a faction wide rule that allows it. Or if we rolled 2 dice and discared the highest.

    Something needs to be done anyway and I don't think the suggestions I have made will "break" the game but will at least but our faction from a "push over" to one that is nearly as resilient as DG but have a better way of surviving.


    The great thing with this is that opponents would no longer have to focus fire them down anyway, since they will still come back to some degree. Which means we could safely go with smaller unit sizes, and suddenly a bunch of pieces fall into place.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/12 23:45:54


    Post by: Odrankt


    The great thing with this is that opponents would no longer have to focus fire them down anyway, since they will still come back to some degree. Which means we could safely go with smaller unit sizes, and suddenly a bunch of pieces fall into place.
    Smaller unit sizes also mean we get to save points e.g. instead of 2 units of max Immos and a unit of max Warriors, If we ran them at "starting cost" instead we save 290pts from the index which is nearly enough pts for 2 Triarch Stalkers or a DDA with Scarabs.

    Also, to make it fair, if the destroyed unit doesn't RP atleast 1 model then the unit is destroyed for the rest of the game (untill we play a new Stratagem that lets us bring a destroyed unit within 6" of our deployment zone edge). Seems quite fair forwhat I am proposing.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/13 09:28:15


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    I really think that the best solution to having necron units come back after getting wiped is to let it be a passive Spyder ability.

    For a couple of reasons -

    - It references 3rd ed, so there's a precedence
    - Makes spyders worth taking; atm spyders are too unreliable as a spawner and not great as a repairer as you have to buy a piece of gear and hug the vehicle.



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Grimgold wrote:
    I imagine we'll get the usual gamut of subfaction rules.

    -One dynasty ignores cover (mephrit)
    -One dynasty gives a -1 to hit (Nihilakh)
    -One dynasty gets an extra attack on charges (Novokh)
    -One dynasty that's spooky and gives -1 to leadership (Maynarkh)

    Then the Sauhtekh which will give +1 to leadership and some other benefit like being able to advance and fire rapid fire weapons.


    I wouldn't like that.
    Necrons aren't marines in that there's a specific set of marine chapters, all having their derivatives.
    There are supposed to be thousands of Necron dynasties as of 5th ed, each with their own little quirk.
    Having these dynasties be a derivative of those seems wrong to me.
    If they are going that path, they should at least include a Severance or Rogue dynasty, to represent the more "esoteric" dynasties who aren't under the Triarch and a generic dynasty template to represent those who aren't derived from big named ones.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 00:56:35


    Post by: Hoodwink


    Necrons really just need the Eldar treatment. Make a huge points shift down and things will even out much more. The biggest problem isn't even the RP mechanic, it's the fact that there aren't enough choices Necron players give an enemy. It's so much easier to focus fire units down one by one when the units are expensive and fewer units overall. Once you start upping the number of models Necron players can throw on the table, it really starts to shift the power dynamics.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 03:59:11


    Post by: Maelstrom808


    Yes, but there are some problems that points changes can't solve, such as the transportation methods that destroy any rules synergy unless you jump through a lot of incredibly inefficient hoops.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 05:01:23


    Post by: Halfpast_Yellow


    Necrons won't need much to 'fix' them, they're not irreparably broken as a faction.

    1) RP is generally overcosted. It should probably become a weaker mechanic with corresponding large points decreases to most of the RP units. Then, implement stratagems and the like that can boost the effect; that way, the burden of cost for RP is shifted onto the Stratagem economy - for example, RP becomes a 6+ default return roll, but you can burn a point to increase it to 5+ or whatever. That way when say, a unit of Destroyers or Immortals is put down in one round of shooting, you haven't 'burnt' points on an unusable mechanic, but when they aren't you can choose to use your resources to boost your Necrons up. This fixes both the negation issue and the scaling issue, because the stratagem points system scales more effectively from smaller to larger games and handles 'negation' (wiping a unit) better because available stratagem points effectively pool across your whole army, the realisation of their value is not contained to one unit.

    2) Monolith and Nightscythe basically being overpointed and not providing the effect they should for the army. The Monolith doesn't and shouldn't have to have amazing firepower compared to other vehicles in it's but it's battlefield control should be exceptional to make up for it. For example, let it pull any Necron units within 2" of a point chosen within 18" out of combat without penalty. All of a sudden it's a lynchpin unit on the field instead of just an underpowered expensive drop pod.
    The Nightscythe is overpriced and needs to convey transport rules for units it brings in. Let it bring in up to X models from the 'tombworld' per turn, and implement a stratagem that allows tombworld units to enter play from the board edge if no NS/Monoliths are available.

    4) Just providing the general codex options and tools re: traits and stratagems that other codexes get. Extra artifacts and warlord traits.
    A Dynasty or stratagem with counterplay to the Psychic phase.
    A Dynasty or stratagem that gives Quantum Shielding to Canopteks.
    A Dynasty or stratagem that allows rapid firing after advance,
    And so on.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 09:48:12


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Have a look at Necron Warriors with their gauss weapons.
    Their shooting against Land Raiders was legendary in the previous editions.
    But now? How do they strip off 16 wounds against a model with 3+ save?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 09:56:04


    Post by: BrianDavion


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Have a look at Necron Warriors with their gauss weapons.
    Their shooting against Land Raiders was legendary in the previous editions.
    But now? How do they strip off 16 wounds against a model with 3+ save?


    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 10:04:58


    Post by: wuestenfux


    BrianDavion wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Have a look at Necron Warriors with their gauss weapons.
    Their shooting against Land Raiders was legendary in the previous editions.
    But now? How do they strip off 16 wounds against a model with 3+ save?


    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition

    Indeed, weapons with D3 to D6 damage are important in this edition.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 10:19:22


    Post by: Claas


    I like quantum shielding but it basically guarantees my opponent is going to use all of their high damage weapons on killing my heavy destroyers even faster.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 10:24:53


    Post by: BrianDavion


     wuestenfux wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Have a look at Necron Warriors with their gauss weapons.
    Their shooting against Land Raiders was legendary in the previous editions.
    But now? How do they strip off 16 wounds against a model with 3+ save?


    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition

    Indeed, weapons with D3 to D6 damage are important in this edition.


    agreed. and it's a great problem for necrons to have as it means GW can legit sell another kit.



    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 10:42:24


    Post by: p5freak


    BrianDavion wrote:
    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition


    wuestenfux wrote:
    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition
    Indeed, weapons with D3 to D6 damage are important in this edition.


    Necrons already have a good anti vehicle unit, the heavy destroyer. All it needs is a point drop to something like 50. Buffed with MWBD they hit on 2+, rerolling 1s. AP-4 ignores 3+ armor. Place them in cover and they arent easy to kill with T5, W3, 2+ sv. And if one dies they have RP.

    In addition gauss or tesla weapons (dont remember which one glanced a vehicle in 7th on a 6) could do an additional wound on a wound roll of 6 to a vehicle, regardless of toughness.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 10:53:20


    Post by: Amishprn86


    Im not a Necron player per say, tho i have an army i just dont play them really.


    But IMO the 2 main rules (RP and QS) are WAY to easy to ignore, and when your army wide rules dont work, you dont have those buffs anymore. Literally those rules just dont work and needs to be re-written fully.

    QS just needs to be, -1 damage unless its 1 damage (like many other units) and RP needs to be a 5+++ always (even when a vehicle dies and you lose a model).


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 11:07:51


    Post by: Claas


     p5freak wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition


    wuestenfux wrote:
    what Necrons need is a dedicated anti tank unit for this edition
    Indeed, weapons with D3 to D6 damage are important in this edition.


    Necrons already have a good anti vehicle unit, the heavy destroyer. All it needs is a point drop to something like 50. Buffed with MWBD they hit on 2+, rerolling 1s. AP-4 ignores 3+ armor. Place them in cover and they arent easy to kill with T5, W3, 2+ sv. And if one dies they have RP.

    In addition gauss or tesla weapons (dont remember which one glanced a vehicle in 7th on a 6) could do an additional wound on a wound roll of 6 to a vehicle, regardless of toughness.
    like you said, they aren't bad but need to be cheaper. Most games an opponent will just focis on killing off all your heavy deatroyers early on and basically neuter your army.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 11:09:38


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Heavy destroyers alone will not bring Necrons on par with other armies when it comes to destroying tanks or monsters.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 11:45:36


    Post by: pismakron


    Noooo, RP should not be a simple FNP roll. Infantry that dies and then comes back is what makes necrons necrons. Without that they are just robot death-guard.

    I think making warriors and immortals 10 and 14 points each would be a better start.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 11:59:15


    Post by: Amishprn86


    pismakron wrote:
    Noooo, RP should not be a simple FNP roll. Infantry that dies and then comes back is what makes necrons necrons. Without that they are just robot death-guard.

    I think making warriors and immortals 10 and 14 points each would be a better start.


    Then make it on a 5+ they "ignore death", but the point i was trying to make, is that players with the current rules, just makes the rule pointless and get around the rule, we need that rule to be effective no matter what.

    Edit: Hard to say what i mean, eglish is hard


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 13:09:12


    Post by: Gitdakka


    I've played against necrons, and the RP rule is not good. Either you kill a whole unit and the rule is useless. Or you kill all but a couple of models, and two three turns later the lone dude is back to a full unit, which is too OP. RP in my eyes should be a one time thing like the 3rd-5th ed codex. This makes it scary to see how many comes back, but still makes killing some of the necrons usefull, as the ones that failed stay dead. They could make the rule so that RP still happens on wiped out units. Leave a marker on the last model and place the ones that comes back from that point.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    All or nothing like now makes the games one sided.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 13:23:49


    Post by: niv-mizzet


    I would've liked to see RP as a really unique resource mechanic.

    Something like you get an RP point for every model with RP in your list. At the start of your turn, a unit may recover missing models by spending 3 RP points per wound of the model. If you wish to recover a unit that has been completely destroyed, you pay double for the first model to return, and they must show up near a cryptek or a rez orb.

    With something like this in play, you could build a TAC list with various elements, and then when you discover that your specific matchup requires a certain unit, say heavy destroyers against all knights or something, you can forego using RP on warriors and just blow all the RP points on keeping the destroyers online.

    For counterplay, the opponent would still want to wipe units so that they are restricted to showing up near the characters instead of somewhere important, and also the tax for respawning a unit from nothing would drain their RP faster. Alternatively if they could ice all the respawn-point characters, then they could wipe units and not have them come back.

    I think changing RP to something like that that gives some tactical decisions to the cron player, as well as encouraging and rewarding a versatile list, would be a nice mechanic.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 14:12:34


    Post by: torblind


    Sounds like too much book keeping


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 14:34:50


    Post by: pismakron


    What about this: Whenever a RP model killed, it should be knocked over or replaced with a marker on the spot where it dies. In the RP-phase a die is rolled for every marker/knocked over model: On a 6 the model is raised. On a 5 the model is raised
    if within 12" of a Lord/Overlord. On a 1 the model/marker is permanently removed from play. When a model is raised it is added to any unit of its own type within 2" of itself. If it cannot do so, it forms it's own unit. A ressurection Orb can be used to trigger rolls for all markers within 12".


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 14:55:13


    Post by: Fenris-77


    I can see them spreading RP buffs around the army. Base models get a 4+ or 5+, and then Crypteks add +1, and Lords and Canoptek units all have their own various buffs (designed to counter obvious weaknesses).. That would be very much in line with the look and feel of some of the other codexes. Beyond that, the rule itself just need to be not useless.

    Focused fire isn't the biggest issue there IMO, that''s been the workaround from Crons since they came out and if the Crons were appropriately tough and/or pointed it would be fine. My bigger problem is the impact of morale, which is just silly. I still think rolling RP before morale would fix that but who knows what they'll do. I'm pretty confident they'll more or less fix it with the codex release,


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 14:55:29


    Post by: Eihnlazer


    I say change the ghost ark a bit.

    Instead of +1 RP roll, have it just auto-rez 5 warriors from any warrior squad within 3" at the end of its movement phase. This can even be from squads totally wiped out (you would leave a marker where the last warrior died to check for distance).

    As for crons not having anti-tank I cant agree. Triarch stalker + doomsday/heavy destroyers still wrecks most any vehicles. And tesla cannons threaten transports well enough.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 16:01:43


    Post by: v0iddrgn


    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 16:25:49


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.
    Again, I really think the solution is to take cues from 3rd ed and give spyders the ability to effectively bring back wiped squads. Or even allow monoliths to do that.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 16:32:36


    Post by: Amishprn86


    You can want it to be all or nothing, thats not fun at all for either player. Either you get it and the other player is mad, or you fail and you're mad.

    Also you dont want it like it is now, encouraging killing the full squad in 1 go.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 16:33:09


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.

    It was also the only thing helping keep the army afloat once the rest of the 7th edition Codices were released.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 16:35:21


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.

    It was also the only thing helping keep the army afloat once the rest of the 7th edition Codices were released.


    Yeah, so? The entire army was badly designed, like the whole of 7th. "Oh wow, you can make one good cookie cutter build, and no one likes it! Amazing!"
    It was just so bland and boring to play. The 8th edition version has potential, but it needs some more tweaking.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 17:16:10


    Post by: p5freak


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Heavy destroyers alone will not bring Necrons on par with other armies when it comes to destroying tanks or monsters.


    Necrons have plenty of anti high toughness weapons. Stalker, doomsday ark, lychguard in cc, canoptek tomb sentinel, tesseract ark, sentry pylon, doom scythe.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 17:25:35


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     p5freak wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Heavy destroyers alone will not bring Necrons on par with other armies when it comes to destroying tanks or monsters.


    Necrons have plenty of anti high toughness weapons. Stalker, doomsday ark, lychguard in cc, canoptek tomb sentinel, tesseract ark, sentry pylon, doom scythe.


    Three of those are fw though. And the rest are pretty expensive or few in number.
    Compare this to the other armies, which can field a relatively greater number of heavy weapons.
    Like, marines and guard can take heavy weapons in their infantry squads, their vehicles can have multiple anti-tank weapons, etc
    Overall, it feels like the other armies have more weapons that deal more or just as much damage as ours. We don't really have anything that stands out, except for the bonus AP. Which is nice against single wound targets, but irrelevant against multi-wound targets.
    I don't mind not having many weapons, but at least let these weapons hit like a truck.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 17:27:40


    Post by: p5freak


    Like the heavy destroyers those units need a points drop.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 17:53:10


    Post by: Maelstrom808


    Since the Doom Scythe was brought up, it also needs a "Strafing Run" style rule. BS4 with the big gun is awful as an anti-tank weapon.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 17:55:39


    Post by: Darsath


     Maelstrom808 wrote:
    Since the Doom Scythe was brought up, it also needs a "Strafing Run" style rule. BS4 with the big gun is awful as an anti-tank weapon.


    Or just make it an assault weapon instead of heavy.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 18:31:54


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.

    It was also the only thing helping keep the army afloat once the rest of the 7th edition Codices were released.


    Yeah, so? The entire army was badly designed, like the whole of 7th. "Oh wow, you can make one good cookie cutter build, and no one likes it! Amazing!"
    It was just so bland and boring to play. The 8th edition version has potential, but it needs some more tweaking.

    The internal balance was surprisingly okay in that codex. Some things needed tweaking like Barges but it really didn't become a bland and boring codex until the next releases happened.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 18:45:14


    Post by: ArtyomTrityak


    Heavy destroyers and destroyers are okay but cost too much :( They can be killed too easy. Points drop might help.

    I personally like QS. It forces opponents to bring d3 nto d6 damage and that's great.

    RP just does not work.The only unit when it works is warriors but 20xwarriors have morale issue - opponent kills 10-12 of them, then another 4-5 flee and MAYBE 3-4 warriors will come back next turn.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 19:43:51


    Post by: v0iddrgn


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.
    Again, I really think the solution is to take cues from 3rd ed and give spyders the ability to effectively bring back wiped squads. Or even allow monoliths to do that.

    As it is now, RP works only at the beginning of your turn. The 5th edition version worked at the end each PHASE which brings the viability up since you can get back up before you get assaulted.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 19:48:06


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    v0iddrgn wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    v0iddrgn wrote:
    I like the way RP worked in 5th/6th edition. You waited until the end of the phase and had one shot at reanimating if failed you lost the model. Nothing OP and it feels like Necrons should feel.


    Idk, the continuous chances feels like it has potential. Its just really easy to wipe squads, thus canceling the rule out.
    Giving them FNP is a terrible idea. They did that in 7th, and it was crap. Turned RP into yet another form of FNP on steroids instead of being a unique army rule.
    Again, I really think the solution is to take cues from 3rd ed and give spyders the ability to effectively bring back wiped squads. Or even allow monoliths to do that.

    As it is now, RP works only at the beginning of your turn. The 5th edition version worked at the end each PHASE which brings the viability up since you can get back up before you get assaulted.


    That's true, the 5th ed version did have the stronger timing. Maybe the two can be combined?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 19:59:09


    Post by: Fenris-77


    I'd love to see it go back to per phase, or even after shooting and fight, but before morale. If it went to per phase it might have to be base 5+, but I'd be ok with that. Or after morale but also including casualties from morale.(yeah, right, I know).


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 20:22:00


    Post by: Darsath


     Fenris-77 wrote:
    I'd love to see it go back to per phase, or even after shooting and fight, but before morale. If it went to per phase it might have to be base 5+, but I'd be ok with that. Or after morale but also including casualties from morale.(yeah, right, I know).


    I thought it wad already a 5+ base though.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 20:23:40


    Post by: torblind


    RP per phase means you are punishing your opponent even harder for not wiping them when he has the chance. The exact thing that needs fixing.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 20:46:01


    Post by: Hoodwink


    What if Necrons RP was:

    "At the end of each phase in which models of the Necron player with this ability were destroyed, that player rolls a dice for each model with this ability that was destroyed. On a 6, that model instead of being removed from the game stands back up and must immediately be placed back in unit coherency more than 1" away from enemy units. Any models that are unable to be setup this way are lost. If all models in the unit are destroyed prior to rolling, the location of the last destroyed model is used as the starting point for unit coherency. Models destroyed and placed back on the battlefield by this ability are not counted as casualties for terms of Morale."

    I'm giving a 6 as an example, since it would be a pretty strong system. It's a bit different than a simple FnP but still pretty similar. The biggest differences would be excess damage to the unit would be lost instead of having to roll multiple 6's, but consolidation in CC would deny RP resurrects. It is also does not affect morale losses since they are not destroyed. I know it looks a bit long and complicated but it's pretty easy and I just wanted to make sure as much of the gray area was covered.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 20:53:50


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Darsath wrote:
     Fenris-77 wrote:
    I'd love to see it go back to per phase, or even after shooting and fight, but before morale. If it went to per phase it might have to be base 5+, but I'd be ok with that. Or after morale but also including casualties from morale.(yeah, right, I know).


    I thought it wad already a 5+ base though.


    Yeah it is. It's only 4+ if you have a cryptek or if you're playing 3rd ed.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 20:59:08


    Post by: Fan67


    Horrors
    Poxwalkers

    What do they have in common with necrons?
    They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.

    Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
    Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.

    And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.

    Nuff said.



    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 21:05:54


    Post by: Darsath


    Fan67 wrote:
    Horrors
    Poxwalkers

    What do they have in common with necrons?
    They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.

    Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
    Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.

    And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.

    Nuff said.



    I wouldn't get your expectations too high for changes in the codex. I feel it will be a smaller dex, with mostly just some points changes in it. Similar is probably true with the Tau codex. Certainly don't anticipate many rules changes anyways.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 21:09:23


    Post by: Fan67


    Darsath wrote:
    Fan67 wrote:
    Horrors
    Poxwalkers

    What do they have in common with necrons?
    They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.

    Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
    Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.

    And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.

    Nuff said.



    I wouldn't get your expectations too high for changes in the codex. I feel it will be a smaller dex, with mostly just some points changes in it. Similar is probably true with the Tau codex. Certainly don't anticipate many rules changes anyways.


    You are most certainly right, but the thread is about ideas for rules.
    Quantity over quality may work just as good.
    Make necrons cheap enough so RP is just a cherry on the cake - and many players will swallow it whole, despite their army lack of oomph.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 21:13:18


    Post by: Fenris-77


    yup, but a potential way to upgrade the usefulness if the ability of less useful phase-wise is to bump it to 4+. That's way less likely depending on buffs and timing of a new rule.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 21:15:30


    Post by: Hoodwink


    I think the res orb stuff could really be a key in making it better. You could leave RP exactly how it is right now if you wanted. Change res orbs to a one shot RP roll for the models once they are wiped. You are still limited by the points you spend on the orbs, the range, and the number of models carrying them. If you are out of range of orbs, better hope you don't get wiped but you still get normal RP rolls. In the range of orbs, you can run up as a suicide unit and still get models back without worrying about being wiped... at least once...


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 22:15:01


    Post by: torblind


    Fan67 wrote:
    Horrors
    Poxwalkers

    What do they have in common with necrons?
    They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.

    Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
    Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.

    And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.

    Nuff said.



    Sounds like a good idea.. why not make it any model with the RP within 6", they get to roll to get back up. Now there is no point focus firing down until our models are really thinned out. Meaning we will weather those first few deciding rounds of massive gun line shooting and alpha strikes. And sure, thrown in some nice ResOrb trick for nice measures.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/14 22:17:00


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Fan67 wrote:
    Horrors
    Poxwalkers

    What do they have in common with necrons?
    They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.

    Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
    Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.

    And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.

    Nuff said.



    That's sounds like a nice idea, but if you are reintroducing that mechanic might as well give the spyder it's old repair rule back.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 12:16:25


    Post by: Spoletta


    An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 12:28:44


    Post by: torblind


    Spoletta wrote:
    An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.


    How would you punish focus fire? I also agree I don't think they will change the core mehcanics of RP.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 12:42:11


    Post by: Amishprn86


    I dont think we need to punish focus fire, but the rules for RP makes players want to focus fire instead of having a choice, and i think that is bad.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 12:45:10


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    What if we had a unit that could redirect enemy fire?
    Like, you have this unit that has an AoE effect around it, and if enemies try to shoot a unit in this AoE, there's a chance some of the shots are redirected to hit the AoE's source, which is pretty tanky.

    That might be an interesting mechanic, and would tie in with the Necron tendency to bring interesting and gimmicky tools to the fight.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 12:45:15


    Post by: Fenris-77


    torblind wrote:
    Spoletta wrote:
    An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.


    How would you punish focus fire? I also agree I don't think they will change the core mehcanics of RP.
    Punishing focused fire via stratagem wouldn't be hard. You make the strategy defensive, and really good for the CP cost, but it can only be used after the unit has taken a casualty that round. Just to spitball an example, call it "Darkness Field" - for 1CP it makes that unit -2 to be hit for the rest of the shooting phase but can only be used on a unit that has taken a casualty (to 'activate the field'). I'm sure with some thought it could be cooler, but that's just what occurred to me right now. I don't think it would be hard in general to do in general though. Another example, "Repair Nanites" gives the unit +2 armor for the rest of the shooting phase, but only if the unit has taken a casualty in the shooting phase. Shizz like that. You could also split ideas like that in half and have +1/-1 come from a static buff, and then have stratagems that stack with the buff, activated as described above.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 14:17:32


    Post by: Spoletta


    All strategems that can be activated in response to an attack are good for this. If you can declare a +1 save after you declared the attack, then you never know if you can finish that unit or not. This gives a lot of value to RP since you now have a say in the matter.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/15 17:03:40


    Post by: dapperbandit


    Started collecting Necrons last year and just signed up to reply to this thread.

    I think there's a few things you could do that would address core weaknesses of the Necrons in fluffy ways that could perhaps make them feel more unique.

    As many have already said, Reanimation Protocols doesn't play well against opponents who know what they're doing and will just aim to delete your important units like Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers in their first turn.

    Canoptek Units, as we're told in the fluff, build and maintain damaged Necrons on the Tomb World. As I recall, the purpose of phase shifting was to allow Wraiths to perform deep repairs. So, scaling their ability with their cost, Canoptek units should be able to assist reanimation or resurrect units entirely. Scarabs could attempt to bring back D3 destroyed models per turn. Spyders meanwhile could hover over to the site of destroyed models and bring back D6 on their own or roll to resurrect destroyed units entirely.

    Currently Resurrection Orbs are just a way to re-roll RP. They should, as the name implies, be able to bring back the dead even if the unit is destroyed. You would leave a marker where a destroyed unit fell and then any unit carrying an orb could bring back that unit if it gets with 6".

    This would give you more reasons to bring Lords besides a cheap way to fill HQ slots. Which brings me onto another area: wargear and abilities.

    As it stands, your basic Cryptek only has two passive abilities, Chronometron and Technomancer. This could be expanded easily in ways that would make Necrons more resilient and add to their unique flavour. To start here are some ideas for gear/abilities you could give to Crypteks:

    Gloom Prisms: easy enough, gives the Cryptek the option to deny psykers.
    Quantum Shield Generators: Either as a piece of wargear or a CP option, allow Crypteks to drop a quantum shielding field on themselves and units within a few inches.
    Dispersion Shielding: Similar to the above, but essentially replacing the Chronometron with an equivalent that reflects damage back on a 6 (Lychguard Shields should do the same in addition to the invulnerable save)
    Tesseract Labyrinth: This could work as a grenade or activate when an enemy unit charges within range, and function similarly to the Portal of Exile, essentially sucking in enemy models and depositing them in an empty dimension...
    Phantom Projection/Camouflage: This could work as a way that makes your units either harder to see, or projects phantom images of your units, confusing them and making your units harder to target. Either way, all enemies firing at them fire with -1 Ballistic Skill.
    Dread Projector: Similar to the above, the Crpytek projects ghastly images that reduce the leadership of enemy units that stray into its radius.

    To expand the tactical options available to Lords and Overlords, a suite of different combat Protocols that could be activated on Necron units would also make Lords more attractive and give the Necrons ways to either double down on their strengths or cover their shortcomings. Her'es a few I've thought of:

    Extermination Protocols: When activated, a friendly infantry unit within range will inflict Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6
    Annihilation Protocols: When activated, a friendly unit within range receives -1 AP to their ranged weapon profile. This would work to make Gauss weapons even deadlier, or Tesla weapons more effective against tough targets.
    Invasion Protocols: When activated, add +2 to a friendly unit's movement and charge distances, ranged weapons temporarily fire as if they had the Assault profile.
    Sentry Protocols: When activated, select an infantry unit within range. It receives +1 to Ballistic Skill and can make an additional shooting attack when firing Overwatch.
    Extraction Protocols: When activated, the selected unit immediately phases out and returns to the Tomb World. They can then be redeployed the following by a Monolith or Night Scythe, either returning at full strength or after rolling for Reanimation as if they were still on the table.
    Acceptable Losses: This ability when active allows your ranged units to fire on an enemy unit, even if it is tied up in melee-combat with either your own Necron Warriors or Canoptek Scarabs. I feel this would give you some interesting options on the battlefield and would also mesh well with the depictions of Dynastic Lords and Overlords as generally cruel and uncaring for the lesser ranks of the Necron hierarchy. I'd have to think more about how you'd apply it in terms of a pay off - I guess you'd have to roll for all visible units within an inch of enemy models and make hit and wound rolsl for them too. Sounds dicey, but could be very effective. For example, bogging down terminators with Scarabs then firing into the melee with Immortals.

    Lastly, for some final random ideas, it would be nice either as an ability or CP use to "reverse the polarity" of Quantum Shielding, so that for one turn if you roll over the inflicted damage it is ignored. In this instance, on all but the roll of a 1, wounds from single damage weapons can be ignored.
    As much as it would actually remove some possible buffing applications, it doesn't make sense for me that Flayed Ones have the Dynasty Keyword. They've been afflicted by a virus that drives them mad, they shouldn't really have the same loyalties as other infantry.
    It'd be nice if there was a way to turbocharge your tesla attacks so that they are capable of branching to nearby models. Like a smaller version of Imotekh's Lord of the Storm, except it just deals regular wounds.

    Anyway, that's what I've brainstormed. Changes to RP makes it possible to recover destroyed units and also giving you other ways to reanimate fallen units that are still on the table. Changes to Crypteks and Lords/Overlords give more flavour to the army and give you a range of tools to protect your units during enemy turns and make them more effective in situational ways during your your own turn. With abilities like this at your disposal, the lack of an offensive psychic phase is mitigated. You may be unable to dish out mortal wounds but your abilities would have no charge values to manifest, nor perils of the warp to risk. Obviously your choice of combat protocol to activate is singular, Invasion Protocols could get you to the objective or into the fight, but you could have given Extermination Protocols to another unit.





    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 04:32:31


    Post by: v0iddrgn


    I think a great strategem would be: 1CP use this strategem when a unit with RP has lost its last model as a casualty. Before removing the last remaining model you may roll for RP. Any models gained from this m ust be placed within 6" of the last remaining model. Reanimation Protocols fixed!


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 08:46:16


    Post by: Cmdr_Sune


    I like the res orb idea. The mechanic of the current RP really makes it easy to be either OP or useless (on some units) if tweaked in the wrong way.

    A lot of playtesting needs to be done and I would guess that GW probably have tried out different mechanics.

    What makes a big difference is if units are in cover and getting that +1 save. For example Immortals and Deathmarks in cover are a pain to kill. So increasing the save on some select units (Destroyers, Lychguard and Praetorians) and perhaps changing the Crypteks 5++ to a +1 to saves is a solution that keeps the current RP. Warriors with 3+ save would wither a lot more fire as would Destroyers with a 1+ in cover.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 11:58:00


    Post by: arhurt


    How about two new rules on every unit (and costed accordingly)

    Phase out: when this unit loses its last model or fails a morale test, remove it from the battlefield a different place it in tombworld deployment. This unit receives a cumulative - 1 to reanimation protocol every time it phases out.

    Phase in: if this unit was placed in tombworld deployment from the battlefield. Deepstrike it at the end of your movement phase.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 12:22:00


    Post by: Fenris-77


    Does anyone else think that, for the current price point, Warriors should already have their 3+ save back?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 12:36:31


    Post by: Slipspace


    Necrons definitely have a lot of problems. First the good:

    1. I like Quantum Shielding. It's a rule that ties to the background very well and does what it should.

    2. RP is a great idea and I like the way they've tried to streamline the implementation of it. Making it a roll at the start of a turn instead of an extra save means your opponent's never quite sure how effective their shooting has been (but see problems below) and I hated having markers scattered all over the table under previous iterations of the rule.

    Unfortunately the army has a lot of problems. The RP problem against focus fire is the most obvious one. I think allowing RP even after being wiped out might be a good solution, probably on a 6+ and maybe only once so if the unit is wiped out again it can't come back. It's just too easy to wipe a unit at the moment. Changing the timing to start of Morale phase would also be a help as it would then prevent the problem of units dying to Morale so easily if your opponent falls just short of wiping out a blob of 20 Warriors.

    Anti tank and multi-damage is a huge issue too. Necrons went from having some of the best anti tank in 7th to the worst in 8th. All our anti-tank weapons are on platforms that are too easy to destroy or too expensive for what they do. We have very limited access to multi-damage weapons. Compare the cost of a Destroyer to a Hive Guard - it's depressing. This problem is often exacerbated by, ironically, QS. Because D6 damage weapons are often not great against our vehicles all our units with 2W or 3W tend to get shot by weapons that do D6 damage and die very quickly.

    Mobility is a huge problem. This is at least characterful but with transports being expensive or nearly non-functional in the case of the flyers it can be difficult to control the battlefield properly. I'd be happy for this to stay as a Necron weakness but a few more options here might be good.

    I think giving Warriors a 3+ save again might help a lot. I'd also like to see more access to D2 or D3 damage weapons too. At the moment the combination of high Strength, low Damage on a lot of our guns really hurts us. 8th edition requires you to have high damage output to efficiently deal with tanks and monsters and we are sorely lacking.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 14:37:05


    Post by: p5freak


    Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 14:51:10


    Post by: Odrankt


     p5freak wrote:
    Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.


    Wouldn't that make going into cover useless?

    Also, the whole point of Necrons is that they don't die and always come back sooner or later. How is making the saving throw 1 better going to represent the Necrons unique-rule? That would mean that any model that dies can't even come back making us the most useless army in the 40k universe and might as well "Squat" us.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 14:54:10


    Post by: Cmdr_Sune


    Yes, quantum shielding is a great mechanic. Strangely it's in some way similiar to RP since it can be bypassed with low damage weapons. Don't get me wrong there should always be ways to counter some mechanics, the game becomes more tactical in that way.

    I actually like the way RP works currently. However it needs a minor tweak or as I wrote earlier perhaps the best way is to make Necron units tougher in some way making the units more difficult to wipe.

    3+ saves on Warriors would help a lot. Not sure where that would leave the Immortals since a 2+ on them might be too much. That's why I suggested that a Cryptec should increase the save by +1 instead of giving a 5++ save.

    As for anti tank that could be easily fixed by minor tweaks.
    - Doomsday Ark: Change to Heavy 3, change big gun to assault when moving.
    - Stalker: Points drop
    - Heavy Destroyers: Points drop, increase save to 2+
    - Destroyers: Points drop, increase save to 2+, Gauss cannon to S7 (too much?)
    - Annihilation Barge: Points drop and a S7 Gauss cannon
    - Monolith: Points drop, 2+ save, change eternity gate rule
    - Doom Scythe: Points drop, give big gun +1 to hit ground targets, increase to T7
    - Crypteks: Reintroduce a lot of the wargear such as Eldritch Lance
    - Gauss weapons: if the above is not enough give gauss weapons some bonus when rolling sixes to hit.

    I've only given suggestions for units with Heavy weapons, but many other units also needs a points drop and/or tweak.


    Anyhow the codex i probably already completed.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:04:32


    Post by: Marmatag


    RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.

    Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:50:12


    Post by: Cmdr_Sune


     Marmatag wrote:
    RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.

    Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.


    Necrons had a 5+ steroid FNP in 7th.
    The idea of RP is to make a unique mechanic for Necons.

    In older editions Crypteks had special wargear that were specific for each discipline.
    Not sure if it will come back since the Veil of Darkness was one such item and that has become a relic now.
    But hopefully they will introduce a few disciplines with different rules, powers or wargear.
    An anti psycher Cryptek would be nice, but situational.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:52:18


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     p5freak wrote:
    Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.


    No, sorry, that's a terrible idea. That completely undermines the feel of the necron army.

    Necrons do not get bonus armor.
    Necrons do not get FNP. They are not death guard.
    Necrons come back from the dead. That is how a necron do.

    How would you like it if they took away Black rage and just went "you rerolls 1 now in cc, because simple "? That would be bs, wouldn't it?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:52:34


    Post by: torblind


    After taking FNP from necrons and giving it to death guard, they're unlikely to reintroduce it to necrons


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:56:32


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     Cmdr_Sune wrote:
     Marmatag wrote:
    RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.

    Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.


    Necrons had a 5+ steroid FNP in 7th.
    The idea of RP is to make a unique mechanic for Necons.

    In older editions Crypteks had special wargear that were specific for each discipline.
    Not sure if it will come back since the Veil of Darkness was one such item and that has become a relic now.
    But hopefully they will introduce a few disciplines with different rules, powers or wargear.
    An anti psycher Cryptek would be nice, but situational.


    Yeah, the cryptek disciplines were a cool idea. No idea why they removed them.
    You know what would be a great anti-psy unit? Pariahs.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:56:59


    Post by: Fenris-77


    torblind wrote:
    After taking FNP from necrons and giving it to death guard, they're unlikely to reintroduce it to necrons
    FNP also wasn't the original idea either, so I'd agree, I don't think it's likely that they go back to it. If they do it's just laziness IMO. As mentioned above, the RP rules aren't all bad by any means - they just need a tweak, not a re-write.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 16:57:41


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    torblind wrote:
    After taking FNP from necrons and giving it to death guard, they're unlikely to reintroduce it to necrons


    Wait, didn't death guard already have FNP? Pretty sure they had FNP before necrons, or at least it was some effect of Nurgle's,
    Necrons only had FNP for one edition. Thankfully it only lasted for that edition.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 17:06:11


    Post by: Cmdr_Sune


    Too bad Pariahs where retconned.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 17:09:08


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    They were
    A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

    I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

    For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
    Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 17:40:41


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    They were
    A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

    I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

    For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
    Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.

    Lychguard models really aren't that bad. Just use the Praetorian heads like I did and maybe skip the loincloth. It's totally that simple.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.


    No, sorry, that's a terrible idea. That completely undermines the feel of the necron army.

    Necrons do not get bonus armor.
    Necrons do not get FNP. They are not death guard.
    Necrons come back from the dead. That is how a necron do.

    How would you like it if they took away Black rage and just went "you rerolls 1 now in cc, because simple "? That would be bs, wouldn't it?

    1. They're robots. They really shouldn't feel pain in the first place.
    2. If there was no way to get rerolls for Blood Angels, the complaints would be less likely.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 17:48:26


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    They were
    A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

    I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

    For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
    Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.

    Lychguard models really aren't that bad. Just use the Praetorian heads like I did and maybe skip the loincloth. It's totally that simple.


    Its just not the head. In terms of overall design they aren't that impressive looking compared to the pariah.
    The pariah were something that stood out in a necron army because of how different they looked. Lychguard just look like barrel chested necrons.
    There's nothing inherently wrong with them, its just that the pariah looked better and more interesting design wise than their replacements.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 18:05:45


    Post by: Dynas


    Everyone it talking about RP, which is understandable.
    Everyone is saying it shoudn't be FnP and should feel more unique to necrons coming back alive, also understandable.

    BUT...
    40k is a game. TP needs a game mechanic, that has to be tied to a die roll in some way.

    If a model with RP dies (or maybe even a unit). And it has RP, how would you bring it back? Only way is with a die roll.

    Weather thats a 5+ or 6+ or whatever, it still the same mechanic as a FnP. Just don't call it FnP. Call it RP. Feel no Pain mechanic is in many armies already called different things, Nids have, DG, Marines, etc...

    If you say the models dies, and lay him down or remove him, but on a 6+ he reanimaties, why not just roll the 6+ while he is on the table and save the time of taking him off or knock him over. Then rolling, then setting him back up.

    Its the same mechanic, just Named something different. The easiest way would be to simply grant the 6+++ save. If it makes it feel more Necron like. Knock your model over before you roll the 6+.

    Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

    Had an ITC tourney this weekend and the necron player had no issues with keeping his guys on the board. His problem was killing stuff. They are durable as hell, but cannot take out units. I think having the D3 and D6 damage on guns will definitely help.

    Dropping overall point cost will likely happen.

    Adding Dynasty Chapter tactics and stratagems will definitely help as well.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 18:13:47


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    The difference is that you have a chance to deny the roll by wiping the squad out first. Its always been that way. It was that way in 3rd, it was that way in 5th, it was that way in 6th.
    It is NOT the same mechanic. FNP is a roll taken directly after saves are taken. WBB/RP is a roll taken for each slain model at a certain point in the turn.
    RP was never, except in 7th ed, a save like FNP is.

    This though

    Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

    Is an ok compromise. It doesn't have the same counter play the traditional rule does, but I can see its worth as being a form of WBB/RP.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 18:51:11


    Post by: Dynas


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    The difference is that you have a chance to deny the roll by wiping the squad out first. Its always been that way. It was that way in 3rd, it was that way in 5th, it was that way in 6th.
    It is NOT the same mechanic. FNP is a roll taken directly after saves are taken. WBB/RP is a roll taken for each slain model at a certain point in the turn.
    RP was never, except in 7th ed, a save like FNP is.

    This though

    Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

    Is an ok compromise. It doesn't have the same counter play the traditional rule does, but I can see its worth as being a form of WBB/RP.


    Yeah i get that. But GW is trying to make things more simplistic and streamlined. Having the same rules across multiple armies regardless of whay they are called for fluff reasons is a way to do that. Look at Deep Strike for instance. How many different names are their for DS, probaly like 12.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/16 19:24:25


    Post by: EnTyme


    Yeah! If only there was some system of Universal Special Rules! We've never seen anyone complain about those. /s


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 00:08:35


    Post by: v0iddrgn


    I'm just sayin' I liked the RP at the end of the phase and if failed no more chances unless res orb.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 00:15:49


    Post by: ArtyomTrityak


    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 01:10:21


    Post by: Fenris-77


     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.
    The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 01:21:17


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.


    Yeah, being harder to kill than most races. The whole coming back from the dead thing and having access to some pretty unique gear with special abilities is the necron identity and acts as compensation for lack of psykers.
    The problem is their damage output isn't high enough for the level of durablity they have, and they don't have all of that gear anymore. Either increase their damage output or increase how tanky they are, and of course, give them back their toys.

    I want Solar Pulse.
    I want Nightmare Shroud
    I want mind shackle scarabs
    I want pokeballs tess labs.
    I want the cryptek staff options.

    The fact they were missing from the index hurts the army, as it takes away the options that they needed to perform effectively. A solar pulse, for example, would actually help them surviving, as it can mitigate the enemy damage output.
    Nightmare shrouds can help with their offense, as it screws up enemy morale, and since morale deals damage now it can get a few kills and serve an actual use in this edition, as opposed to its previous incarnations where it was situational at best.
    MSS again, can help defensively by shutting down hard hitters and tesslabs can take care of threats. The cryptek staff options added some flexibility to the necron army, from anti-tank to anti-hoard capabilities, and they really need such flexibility right now.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 03:25:10


    Post by: Matt.Kingsley


    My take on this - RP should occur at the end of every Phase OR a unit should get the chance to RP if it would be wiped (like how in 7th Tzeentch Horrors were able to split before they were wiped).

    Occurring each Phase is the simpler of the two, so its probably the better option.


    It would also be great if Necrons got a stratagem along similar line to the once Daemons just got, where they can resurrect a unit that died earlier without Reinforcement points with other restrictions(the Daemon one requires Grey Knights to slay the unit, but that doesn't really fit with Necrons). Maybe something like:

    3 CP - Use when a friendly NECRON unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is destroyed.
    The destroyed unit is returned to the battlefield at full strength. Set the unit up so that it is both more than
    9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 6" of a friendly Monolith. In Matched Play the returned unit does
    not cost Reinforcement Points.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 04:11:06


    Post by: adamsouza


    Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

    Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

    Point Drops


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 07:46:57


    Post by: BrianDavion


     adamsouza wrote:
    Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

    Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

    Point Drops



    so.... "make necrons iron hands"?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 08:14:36


    Post by: Doctoralex


    Id love to see the other Powers of the Ctan to return.

    Heres what id think they should Function:

    -Cosmic Fire: 24" Assault D6, S6 AP-1 Ignores Cover.

    -Sky of the Falling Stars: Assault 3D3, S7 AP- can target units out of LoS.

    -Transdimensional Thunderbolt: Assault 1, S9 AP -4, D6 dmg, Tesla.

    Dont know if these would be too weak/strong, just trying to translate what they were in 7th ed. To 8th ed.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 09:29:32


    Post by: A Town Called Malus


     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.


    Tau aren't better at shooting any more.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     EnTyme wrote:
    Yeah! If only there was some system of Universal Special Rules! We've never seen anyone complain about those. /s


    That GW was bad at making USRs doesn't mean USRs are themselves bad. Think about how you could have rolled up many of the GW rules into things like "Charge (Strength: 1)" instead of Furious Charge, "Charge (Hits: 1)" instead of Hammer of Wrath etc. A system where it tells you what action triggers the rule (when charging), what happens (Strength increases, get automatic hits etc.) and by how much (1 extra strength, 1 auto hit). For other rules there could be an extra term at the end indicating more restrictions, so you could have "Shooting (To Hit: +1) Stationary" to indicate that when shooting you get +1 to hit when you are stationary.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 12:44:56


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     adamsouza wrote:
    Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

    Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

    Point Drops


    If you want to make necrons bland and take away what makes them unique, sure.
    I want to play necrons though, so that idea won't do at all.

    The current RP does not need to be changed from the ground up. There is nothing wrong with them coming back. Its just that there's nothing to alleviate some of the inherent weaknesses in that sort of rule in this current edition, whilst before they had all sorts of ways to mitigate it.
    Spyders in 3rd ed could res fallen squads, solar pulse messes with incoming shooting, res orbs in 3rd removed some of the restrictions for the roll to be made, in 5th ed the roll is made at the end of each phase, etc.
    The current edition has really nothing like that, and as such RP feels weaker than it should be. Its as if GW designed RP with these supporting elements in mind, but didn't add them for some odd reason.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 13:30:27


    Post by: Azuza001


    I would like monoliths to grant a single wbb roll for a wiped squad with rp. Maybe at the beginning of your turn roll a d6 for every model in that unit, on a 6 that model is placed within 3" of the monolith as if it had just disembarked from a transport. That's fluffy and helps with people targeting a squad to death.

    Other than that necrons problem seems to be they are easy to kill because it's so easy to take plasma level weapons this time. Maybe a special rule where if a model has more than 1 wound it takes 1 less wound from multi wound range attacks? That way it shows the only reliable way to kill them is to hack and slash them to death, otherwise you have to pour more firepower into them.

    Only other rule I could see being introduced would be a kind of rend to gauss, maybe if you hit on a natural 6 your hit is at ap-2 instead of -1, or add +1 to the wound roll or something along that path.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 13:56:36


    Post by: KalexKurosaki


    Being allowed to roll RP for wiped units ONLY if you have reinforcement points set aside for it.

    Because you're getting fresh reinforcements for free other wise and that's just completely broken, it's not fixing anything, it's just getting one up on your opponents



    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 14:09:02


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    KalexKurosaki wrote:
    Being allowed to roll RP for wiped units ONLY if you have reinforcement points set aside for it.

    Because you're getting fresh reinforcements for free other wise and that's just completely broken, it's not fixing anything, it's just getting one up on your opponents



    That's...not optimal, but doable I guess if its only for wiped squad. Then again, I don't like the setting aside points mechanic for reinforcements as a whole though, so that's just me.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Azuza001 wrote:
    . Maybe a special rule where if a model has more than 1 wound it takes 1 less wound from multi wound range attacks?


    That's basically the warlord trait introduced in chapter approved


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 14:52:56


    Post by: zodiac_coward


     Fenris-77 wrote:
     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.
    The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.


    Building on this, what if teleporting a unit allowed it make a juiced up RP roll when they re-enter the board? Something to represent the feeling of actually "coming back" in dramatic fashion?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 15:47:56


    Post by: Fenris-77


    zodiac_coward wrote:
     Fenris-77 wrote:
     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.
    The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.


    Building on this, what if teleporting a unit allowed it make a juiced up RP roll when they re-enter the board? Something to represent the feeling of actually "coming back" in dramatic fashion?
    That's very similar to how the Monolith used to work. You picked your squad up and recycled it through the 'Lith and got rerolls on you RP rolls (called We'll be back at the time). It's been a while since I played those rules, but that's my memory of it. Anyway, there's some precedent for a rule like the one you describe, and I think it would be fluffy and cool. Plus, at the time, Veil of Darkness was wargear, not a once a game thing, and the Necrons were actually pretty good at swinging units around the table that way, which was also fun and something I'd like to see again (especially being able to teleport out of HtH). This whole thread feels like wishlisting at this point, but I'm ok with that.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 16:37:07


    Post by: torblind


    I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 17:04:11


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    torblind wrote:
    I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions


    That might be due to it being the only vehicle worth targeting by anti-tank weapons in the necron army.
    If the necrons had more proper tank units, like mini-monoliths or something that don't have QS, are pretty well armored and don't have gaping weakpoints and obvious fragility appearance wise, then the opponent will have a dilemma - force down the monolith, and give the smaller tanks a chance to do damage, force down the smaller tanks and give the monolith a chance to support troops, or split fire and try to cripple them.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 20:21:06


    Post by: Claas


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    torblind wrote:
    I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions


    That might be due to it being the only vehicle worth targeting by anti-tank weapons in the necron army.
    If the necrons had more proper tank units, like mini-monoliths or something that don't have QS, are pretty well armored and don't have gaping weakpoints and obvious fragility appearance wise, then the opponent will have a dilemma - force down the monolith, and give the smaller tanks a chance to do damage, force down the smaller tanks and give the monolith a chance to support troops, or split fire and try to cripple them.


    Beside RP, I believe that is one of the major issues with Necrons. QS hurts us as much as it helps by makiing targeting Necrons easy. . We have little options in making enemies have a tough choice on what to target.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 20:30:12


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
    Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 21:04:09


    Post by: gnome_idea_what


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
    Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

    Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/17 21:11:08


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     gnome_idea_what wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
    Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

    Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?


    I would prefer a new type of tank. We need more traditional necron type units, that follow the same aesthetic design of the monolith and have a nice save and toughness value.
    The 5th ed vehicles are good models, but they aren't quite consistent with previously shown necron vehicles (the monolith) and aren't really consistent with their lore, as why would a race obsessed with avoiding death design their military vehicles to be so fragile with such weak points?
    Quantum Shielding is irrelevant, as such a race would still design their combat vehicles to have no obvious weak-points. An energy shield that could fail is not as reliable as a nice, solid metal plate. Imagine if the Isrealis designed their Merkava tanks with glass panels instead of steel, and tried claiming it was safe because it has flares. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
    A nice, geometric looking necron vehicle with T7-T8, 10+ wounds and a 3+ save would be great. Something like a floating sphere or maybe even something that has a similar profile to an egyptian scarab (but not obviously so, just similarly inspired).

    Spoiler:


    The existing vehicles don't need to be stronger. For one thing, that would not solve the target priority problem, and their statline already accurately reflects their appearance.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 00:33:45


    Post by: NurglesR0T


    some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

    I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 01:17:55


    Post by: ArtyomTrityak


    I love Necrons fluff / models and it would be awesome if GW will fix them to be competitive.

    I'm thinking for now running 6x8 bases of Scarabs, 3x20 Warriors, cryptek, ghost arks.

    So just have a lot of bodies.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 01:49:20


    Post by: adamsouza


     NurglesR0T wrote:
    some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

    I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.


    Necrons had amazing Offense in 6th edition and then amazing defense in 7th edition.

    7th Edition nerfed their offense.
    8th Edition nerfed their defense.

    Reanimation Protocols may be a "unique" but it a terrible mechanic, much like Necron Phase Out was.

    A 1500-2000 point army can concentrate its attacks and obliterate a unit with RP before it ever gets to roll for RP.

    "Gauss" does nothing more now than a mere -1 to saves. The Boltguns of the Primaris Space Marines are better than the advanced Xenos technology of the Gauss Rifle.

    All of the transport options for Necrons are inferior to any standard transport.



    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 01:52:31


    Post by: ArtyomTrityak


    I agree, i feel like Gauss lost all fluff. Does not feel like necronish


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 02:53:13


    Post by: NurglesR0T


     adamsouza wrote:
     NurglesR0T wrote:
    some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

    I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.


    "Gauss" does nothing more now than a mere -1 to saves. The Boltguns of the Primaris Space Marines are better than the advanced Xenos technology of the Gauss Rifle.



    Agreed that Gauss is a bit lacking now. Maybe perhaps in addition to the standard -1 AP, if you roll a 6+ to wound then it does -3AP instead? Would definitely help bring back that feel that Gauss is deadly on the table compared to other small arms fire. Or maybe even D3 Damage if the target has the Vehicle keyword on a would roll of 6


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 04:58:02


    Post by: adamsouza


    How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.



    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 07:00:32


    Post by: Actinium


    I, too, have wishes.


    Keep RP as it is but get rid of the morale clause, most people don't even remember to reinforce it and it's just needless extra book keeping in an edition dedicated to getting rid of needless extra book keeping.

    Have res orbs be an expensive one-use item that targets a unit with rp that has been wiped out, that whole unit gets to make rp rolls again this turn and come back onto the board within 6" of the character holding the orb.

    Give lychguard shields a new special rule that makes nearby friendly units - to hit and the lychguard themselves + to hit. Make up some bs about contained controlled black holes inside the shields that curve projectiles away from other units and towards the shields. Reduce their strength to 4 to make them more thematically tough and make them cheaper, do the same to preatorians but reversed, st5 t4, to emphasis their ambush assault specialty.

    Take the +1 to rp roll rule away from crypteks and give it to spyders, make both much much cheaper. Like I don't think being fully half their current cost is too extreme.

    Give deathmarks anti psyker tech to expand their niche and because their weird cyclops eye reminds me of pariahs.

    Phase out wraiths and catacomb command barges. Release a new destroyer kit with not only the heavy and lord variants included but a new particle weapon option and a melee flayer virus afflicted option that is functionally a wraith and tailor made to run around with a destroyer lord as an assault bomb that hammer and anvils with flayed one deep strikes. Cut flayed one costs, bump their maximum unit size to 30 so they aren't as reliant on non-deepstriking support units like crypteks/spyders to keep their RP healthy. Probably take away one of their attacks, make sure mono flayed one lists aren't good but whole flayer curse themed armies can be.

    Phase out ghost arks and replace them with nothing. Fix the teleportation rules on the scythe and monolith, they're more flavorful than the warrior wagon which has always looked questionable at best and has way way too much mechanical overlap with, like, everything in the army from reanimation to transportation to anti infantry tank.

    Release a new medium vehicle kit that's aesthetically similar to a monolith and can take a tesla destructor or a doomsday cannon to functionally keep doomsday arks and anni barges around even though their kit partners, ghost arks and command barges, are phasing out.

    Do something more thematic with particle weapons. Now that templates are gone they have a little too much in common with tesla weapons. Try either making them more clearly the 'this sucks but is dirt cheap' option, or make them the reverse of tesla weapons by having low strength and great ap, or keep their middle of the road stats but give them the tomb blade nebuloscope upgrade to ignore cover as a built in function. Something.

    Bring back cool character wargear.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 08:30:29


    Post by: Cmdr_Sune


     Actinium wrote:
    I, too, have wishes.


    Keep RP as it is but get rid of the morale clause, most people don't even remember to reinforce it and it's just needless extra book keeping in an edition dedicated to getting rid of needless extra book keeping.

    Even though there's many ways to mitigate morale it still fills a function when fighting horde armies.
    Have res orbs be an expensive one-use item that targets a unit with rp that has been wiped out, that whole unit gets to make rp rolls again this turn and come back onto the board within 6" of the character holding the orb.

    The res orb idea is good and i think that the current price is expensive.
    Give lychguard shields a new special rule that makes nearby friendly units - to hit and the lychguard themselves + to hit. Make up some bs about contained controlled black holes inside the shields that curve projectiles away from other units and towards the shields. Reduce their strength to 4 to make them more thematically tough and make them cheaper, do the same to preatorians but reversed, st5 t4, to emphasis their ambush assault specialty.

    Why not give the Lychguard the same rule as Ad Mech robots. Their shield bounces back mortal wounds on sixes. Makes you opponent think twice before shooting them. 2+ save would also be nice on the LG since they are so slow. Both the Lychguard and Praetorians needs be be cheaper. Praetorians needs a 12" move.
    Take the +1 to rp roll rule away from crypteks and give it to spyders, make both much much cheaper. Like I don't think being fully half their current cost is too extreme.

    I kind of like the way Crypteks are currently just add all the Harbringers and gear instead. Spyders should perhaps give Scarabs RP instead of the current rule. Make that particle caster a bit better and lower the Spyders price by a lot.
    Give deathmarks anti psyker tech to expand their niche and because their weird cyclops eye reminds me of pariahs.
    Deathmarks with gloom prisms would be a good idea.
    Phase out wraiths and catacomb command barges. Release a new destroyer kit with not only the heavy and lord variants included but a new particle weapon option and a melee flayer virus afflicted option that is functionally a wraith and tailor made to run around with a destroyer lord as an assault bomb that hammer and anvils with flayed one deep strikes.

    I like Wraiths and CBB's. Just give the CBB's a lot more options and revise the rules and points costs for Wraith wargear.
    New kits for Destroyers with CC Destroyers and other weapons options would be amazing.
    Cut flayed one costs, bump their maximum unit size to 30 so they aren't as reliant on non-deepstriking support units like crypteks/spyders to keep their RP healthy. Probably take away one of their attacks, make sure mono flayed one lists aren't good but whole flayer curse themed armies can be.

    The Flayed ones are good as they are just cut their cost and add a nice stratagem for them.
    Phase out ghost arks and replace them with nothing. Fix the teleportation rules on the scythe and monolith, they're more flavorful than the warrior wagon which has always looked questionable at best and has way way too much mechanical overlap with, like, everything in the army from reanimation to transportation to anti infantry tank.

    I agree that Ghost Arks are in a weird spot right now, but I also like the way they function by boosting RP. Perhaps remove their transporting capability and lower their cost by many many points. Transporting 10 Warriors and no characters is not good. The Ghost Ark could also have a rule to bring back wiped Warrior units since it's currently repairing them.
    Release a new medium vehicle kit that's aesthetically similar to a monolith and can take a tesla destructor or a doomsday cannon to functionally keep doomsday arks and anni barges around even though their kit partners, ghost arks and command barges, are phasing out.

    New models are always welcome, but leave the CCB alone.
    Do something more thematic with particle weapons. Now that templates are gone they have a little too much in common with tesla weapons. Try either making them more clearly the 'this sucks but is dirt cheap' option, or make them the reverse of tesla weapons by having low strength and great ap, or keep their middle of the road stats but give them the tomb blade nebuloscope upgrade to ignore cover as a built in function. Something.

    I agree, they are boring and worse than tesla and gauss in every way.
    Bring back cool character wargear.

    They really didn't put any time and effort on the Necrons when they made the index.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     gnome_idea_what wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
    Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

    Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?


    Give the Monolith, Obelisk and Tesseract Vault invul saves and/or -1 damage. Not sure how much is needed. A invul save is better against high damage weapons while -1 damage helps more against plasma type weapons. So an invul save mimics the QS better. That would mitigate some of the problem without having to introduce new units and forcing you to use these of you bring a Monolith.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 09:43:30


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Yeah, an invul or -1 damage could work.
    Still want to see more proper necron combat vehicles though

    I don't agree with phasing out (heh) Ghost Arks and CCB.
    Ghost Arks actually have an interesting bit of fluff and justification for why they look so fragile for a necron vehicle - it was originally a necrontyr corpse wagon, a civilian vehicle that was repurposed to be a repair vehicle. This provides a rare insight into necrontyr culture as well has how much has changed after they became necrons.
    In terms of gameplay I like the concept of a repair vehicle, and I would like to see them expand on that concept; get rid of the transport rule (why ride like a primitive when you can teleport?) and make it dedicated to repairing.

    I don't really like the design of the CCB and I don't use it, but I do like the concept of a command vehicle and I still wouldn't want to see it removed.

    -3 AP against vehicles sound like a more faithful adaptation of the gauss rule than the current one, well.
    I think +1 damage might be more useful overall though


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 09:48:40


    Post by: kennyjo


     adamsouza wrote:
    How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.



    This is the right idea. Gauss used to be our answer to vehicles, and we had plenty of easy ways to drop a squad in and rapid fire it down. AP-4 on a 5 or 6 vs vehicles would give Warriors, for example, the same output vs vehicles we used to have. Simple Mathhammer shows - 20 rapid fire shots = 13/14 hits = 4/5 AP-4 wounds. Hardly game breaking.

    My other thoughts:
    - The changes to the cover mechanic have utterly ruined Tesla. Tesla should deny cover.
    - Obviously give transports the transport keyword - NOBODY will take one Doom Scythe and expect it to last a second turn to deliver its guys
    - Why do Necrons pay for RP when SO MANY other armies get FNP or other (cheap and easy) ways to boost durability - e.g. Eldar -1 to hit legion trait, casting fortune, Asurman gives Dire Avengers 4+ invul etc. RP SHOULD NOT be costed into our units, its simply our own version of durability
    - Points drops across the board. 75pts for a Heavy gauss Destroyer? Thats 25pts per T5 wound!!? For that they should be Heavy 2 weapons.
    - Our HQs whiff so badly compared to those from other armies, obv auras should be a bubble, not only applied to one unit, and even the hth specialists get less attacks than everybody elses?
    - We need stratagems to get charges off with our 'assault' units, e.g. Lychguard. They NEVER make it into combat before they're shot to pieces. A stratagem for a 3d6 charge with those, or Flayed Ones is needed, like Daemons just got
    - Wraiths are AWFUL in combat. Need extra attacks or better weaponry. I recently charged a squad of 5 basic marines with 3 Wraiths and lost a combat without even rolling badly.
    - Our overall output is lacking badly - another stratagem to shoot twice would help
    - It is nigh on impossible to build a balanced list and get more than 6 CPs. We need another troop option or Warrior and Immortal points costs to come down or certain HQs to grant extra CPs if chosen as our WL

    Even just these basic changes without messing with the RP mechanic would do the job...






    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 19:39:43


    Post by: gnome_idea_what


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
     gnome_idea_what wrote:
     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
    Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

    Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?


    I would prefer a new type of tank. We need more traditional necron type units, that follow the same aesthetic design of the monolith and have a nice save and toughness value.
    The 5th ed vehicles are good models, but they aren't quite consistent with previously shown necron vehicles (the monolith) and aren't really consistent with their lore, as why would a race obsessed with avoiding death design their military vehicles to be so fragile with such weak points?
    Quantum Shielding is irrelevant, as such a race would still design their combat vehicles to have no obvious weak-points. An energy shield that could fail is not as reliable as a nice, solid metal plate. Imagine if the Isrealis designed their Merkava tanks with glass panels instead of steel, and tried claiming it was safe because it has flares. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
    A nice, geometric looking necron vehicle with T7-T8, 10+ wounds and a 3+ save would be great. Something like a floating sphere or maybe even something that has a similar profile to an egyptian scarab (but not obviously so, just similarly inspired).

    Spoiler:


    The existing vehicles don't need to be stronger. For one thing, that would not solve the target priority problem, and their statline already accurately reflects their appearance.

    FW makes a couple of Canoptek MC constructs. Are any of those bulky enough to have a statline of a Main Battle Tank? I would not hold out hoping that GW introduces a new unit to fill the niche, as new releases for xenos are notoriously inconsistent at actually solving problems. If nothing that already exists fills the role then maybe the Monolith is fated to remain an outlier, until the rest of the Necron arsenal gets some new toys.

    As for Gauss weaponry it needs to be able to threaten vehicles. Right now Tesla weapons are the choice for massed fire, which is an annoying reversal from previous editions. I like giving Gauss an additional AP modifier on sixes, but there are probably other solutions.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 19:48:39


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    I think the tomb stalker variants are pretty tanky, but I'm not sure.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/18 21:24:56


    Post by: Amishprn86


    There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

    They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

    All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

    So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

    Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
    Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
    Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
    They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

    IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
    I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/19 00:17:05


    Post by: torblind


    Sentinel seems great for hunting down AM artillery gunline in the far end of the board, shoot and charge in


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/19 12:09:11


    Post by: Alcibiades


     ArtyomTrityak wrote:
    Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.


    Their "psykers" are C'tan, which I think will probably get more than just offensive powers in the codex.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     adamsouza wrote:
    How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.



    They're not much fluff reason for this. Their guns aren't haywire weapons.

    The really fluffy thing would to have gauss weapons do a mortal wound on a 6, I think. Probably OP though


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/22 17:37:39


    Post by: arhurt


    How about this simple change to address Reanimation:

    Reanimation Protocols: Remains as is.

    Phase-out: After dealing all wounds that would wipe a unit with this rule, but before removing the last model in that unit, make one reanimation protocol roll for each model in the unit that has been removed as a casualty. Place them in coherency with the model left on the table following the reanimation protocol rules. If no models pass their reanimation protocols, remove that last model from the game as a casualty. All models that fail cannot make any more reanimation protocols that game. If a Character is returned in this manner, it returns with half it's wounds attribute, rounded up.

    Add Reanimation Protocol to all Necron Characters.


    This makes it so that the ruling will always have some effect on the game. It is still very unique and feels right, wiping ut Necrons would mean dedicating several rounds of Shooting/CC on them as they just keep coming back, but in dwingling numbers. It would also make our characters a little beefier, since they can return even from the most grievous wounds.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/22 20:45:45


    Post by: Dynas


     Amishprn86 wrote:
    There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

    They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

    All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

    So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

    Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
    Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
    Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
    They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

    IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
    I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.


    Good comparison. I was looking at these 2 and trying to decide on which on.e Honestly, you could probably just get one and feild it either way, most people cant really tell the difference. Its the benefit of being xenos, all your guns look wierd. What about the Tesserack Ark, any good? And whats the difference between all these Pylons?


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/22 22:34:50


    Post by: Amishprn86


     Dynas wrote:
     Amishprn86 wrote:
    There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

    They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

    All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

    So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

    Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
    Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
    Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
    They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

    IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
    I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.


    Good comparison. I was looking at these 2 and trying to decide on which on.e Honestly, you could probably just get one and feild it either way, most people cant really tell the difference. Its the benefit of being xenos, all your guns look wierd. What about the Tesserack Ark, any good? And whats the difference between all these Pylons?


    I personally never looked into those 2 units until now, but the Pylons i believe went up by 75pts points in CA.

    Looking at the units in the book tho, The Pylon is a Macro 1D6 that does7-9 damage, for 500pts+ IDK if that is worth killing 1 vehicle a turn (maybe), heck it cant even kill a Rhino in 1 shot with perfect roles, it does give all Necros an Invul, it doesnt even have QS on it, not worth unless you fighting titian's IMO

    Tesserack didnt get changed in CA, around 250pts, SQ with a either 2 Gauss or Tesla cannons and its special gun (Teesark chamber) its pick 1 of 3 type weapons, basically D6 lascannon, 24" D6, s5, high ap 3d, or a 2+ poison flamer with ap.

    I'd rather have the Tessarck. It is a "fly" vehicle so you can easily place it in good areas/terrain/fallback and shoot.


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/23 04:20:55


    Post by: Neophyte2012


     Matt.Kingsley wrote:
    My take on this - RP should occur at the end of every Phase OR a unit should get the chance to RP if it would be wiped (like how in 7th Tzeentch Horrors were able to split before they were wiped).

    Occurring each Phase is the simpler of the two, so its probably the better option.


    It would also be great if Necrons got a stratagem along similar line to the once Daemons just got, where they can resurrect a unit that died earlier without Reinforcement points with other restrictions(the Daemon one requires Grey Knights to slay the unit, but that doesn't really fit with Necrons). Maybe something like:

    3 CP - Use when a friendly NECRON unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is destroyed.
    The destroyed unit is returned to the battlefield at full strength. Set the unit up so that it is both more than
    9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 6" of a friendly Monolith. In Matched Play the returned unit does
    not cost Reinforcement Points.


    In regard to your proposal, I suggest this for the Reserrection Orb

    "When a unit with RP is destroyed within 6 inches of a model with Reserrection Orb in any phase, that unit can still roll for RP at the end of the phase".

    It might feels too OP, because it make the units standing near Orb model therotically completely unkillable, since on average there will always been 1/3 of the RP roll being 5+, i.e. there will always been 1/3 of the Necrons come back on their feet on the table. It might be compensated by raising the Pts cost of the Orb, or limit it to "once per turn" or "once per unit per turn" (i.e., enemy have a choice to shoot all them down in shooting phase, 1/3 of the unit come back, but then get charged and all get chopped down in combat, then they are all gone finally).


    Why Necrons are totally broken? @ 2018/01/23 09:57:50


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


    Or just keep it as one use.
    The problem with the res orb that as a one use 35 point item all it does it allow rerolls.
    Allowing units to come back from getting wiped might make it worthwhile.