Just what the subject line says. Any canon chapters that have rejected Primaris Marines?

No none. GW's not going to say "this chapter rejected them" because they wanna ensure everyone feels they have the option to use them.
the chapters who rejected them is just GW giving lisence for you to not use them in a homebrew chapter

The closest would be Dark Angels, who were basically press ganged into using them by Guilliman. They don't let them on in any of the chapter secrets and basically use them as cannon fodder.

Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

 jhe90 wrote:
Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

and even in that case it's questionable weather then Lion WOULD refuse them. He'd be just as likely to thank Gulliman for the reinforcements. given the man isn't as invested in the secrecy about the fallen as his chapter is. for all we know the Lion'd immedaitly upon return grab a beer with Gulliman and be all like "yeah so some of my legion went bad, those silly idiots have been covering it up for ten thousand years can you belive it?"

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

and even in that case it's questionable weather then Lion WOULD refuse them. He'd be just as likely to thank Gulliman for the reinforcements. given the man isn't as invested in the secrecy about the fallen as his chapter is. for all we know the Lion'd immedaitly upon return grab a beer with Gulliman and be all like "yeah so some of my legion went bad, those silly idiots have been covering it up for ten thousand years can you belive it?"

I totally agree.

I think the Lion being a consummate commander would appreciate having the best tool at his disposal to use. And lore wise that is now supposed to be the primaris astartes.

(Not that I like the new lore much. But from a purely pragmatic standpoint the Imperium needs everything it can get, and if these guys really are a cut above the astartes then who in thier right mind would refuse them? Not any competent commander, surely. And all things else left aside, the Lion is a competent commander.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

and even in that case it's questionable weather then Lion WOULD refuse them. He'd be just as likely to thank Gulliman for the reinforcements. given the man isn't as invested in the secrecy about the fallen as his chapter is. for all we know the Lion'd immedaitly upon return grab a beer with Gulliman and be all like "yeah so some of my legion went bad, those silly idiots have been covering it up for ten thousand years can you belive it?"

I totally agree.

I think the Lion being a consummate commander would appreciate having the best tool at his disposal to use. And lore wise that is now supposed to be the primaris astartes.

(Not that I like the new lore much. But from a purely pragmatic standpoint the Imperium needs everything it can get, and if these guys really are a cut above the astartes then who in thier right mind would refuse them? Not any competent commander, surely. And all things else left aside, the Lion is a competent commander.

Depends. The genemods are a flat boost, but Cawltech isn't very compatible with the breadth of tactical flexibility marine tech can bring to bear. Their current use in Dark Angels is about right: A supplement to the "greenwing".

And quite honestly any competent commander with even a sliver of concern for his troops as either people or resources would swiftly drop the use of redemptor dreadnoughts if allowed to act in character in that regard.

There are currently no Grey Knight Primaris...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
There are currently no Grey Knight Primaris...

That's likely because not even cawl has access to their geneseed, just like just about everyone.

If GW weren't profit driven, all the non codex Marines would have rejected them.

 beezley1981 wrote:
If GW weren't profit driven, all the non codex Marines would have rejected them.

... why?

BrianDavion wrote:

 beezley1981 wrote:
If GW weren't profit driven, all the non codex Marines would have rejected them.

... why?

Ditto. Too many gamers approach this from a fan perspective. In universe why would any Chapter oppose reinforcements during a time of massive strife? Unlike most of the Imperium space marines don't tend to be orthodox in their beliefs; they are pragmatists who will happily slap a bunch of lascannons on a Land Raider regardless of what the tech priests say.

If they get offered new stronger marines, with no geneseed drawbacks (yet), and no requirement that the Chapter does anything with them other than continue the good fight in their own non-codex way, why would they reject them?

 Denny wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 beezley1981 wrote:
If GW weren't profit driven, all the non codex Marines would have rejected them.

... why?

Ditto. Too many gamers approach this from a fan perspective. In universe why would any Chapter oppose reinforcements during a time of massive strife? Unlike most of the Imperium space marines don't tend to be orthodox in their beliefs; they are pragmatists who will happily slap a bunch of lascannons on a Land Raider regardless of what the tech priests say.

If they get offered new stronger marines, with no geneseed drawbacks (yet), and no requirement that the Chapter does anything with them other than continue the good fight in their own non-codex way, why would they reject them?

this. the idea that the non codex compliant chapters dislike Gulliman? is a meme and a bad one. most of the non codex compliant chapters are ancient dating back to the 2nd founding, and they may have their reasons for not following the codex but they'll respect Gulliman eneugh to hear him out on individual issues. We know he managed to gain the respect of the Black Templars, he didn't order them to obey etc. He explained what he was doing and reminded the Black Templars of their history. The Blood Angels? well.. the Primarch basicly saved their blood line and provided them with potentially a rebirth. remember prior to Primars Marines the blood line of Sanguinis was DYING. it was a slow death but it was there. And the blood angels would proably have died out fighting Levithan. so yeah... Gulliman comes along with Primaris Marines? the guys likely viewed by a lotta the blood of Sanguinis as a savior. The Space Wolves? a pratical minded people, They'll force the Primaris Marines to prove themselves, but once they have they'll be accepting.
The Dark angels might be a little leery sure, but at the same time refusing them would likely result in new scrutiny if everyone else is accepting them. The Dark Angels have pretty much taken the most logical course for them. Accept them but keep Primaris out of the inner circle.

At least one Chapter (Carcharodons) have obtained their Primaris marines from non-Gulliman sources.

How do they fit with SW? What genesead is used?

 Niiai wrote:
How do they fit with SW? What genesead is used?

Pre-heresy SW geneseed.

The Space Wolves are a dead chapter walking. Fenris was purged to the point of unsustainability, there simply aren't enough Fenrisians for them to survive. In only a few decades Fenrisians will be extinct and then the Space Wolves die as a chapter, to be replaced in name only by Primaris. They need primaris to function at all.

Let's not get too hung up on SWs being "natives" (a question in itself) of Fenris, considering that like all the Legions the original inductees were Terran.

Agh.. Agh...

Primus geneseed might not require them to be Fenris and such.

Now there still wolves and those new recruits could still be trained in the old ways, be the blood claw etc just a primus blood claw. A primus marine body, that's space wolf through and through.

They just become bigger, tougher normal space wolves.

Not extinction, just evolution.

The space wolves will not die out.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The closest would be Dark Angels, who were basically press ganged into using them by Guilliman. They don't let them on in any of the chapter secrets and basically use them as cannon fodder.

IIRC the Flesh Tearers hate them as well and Gabriel Seth actively opposed them being added to his chapter and referred to them as ultramarines in red armour.

He's just jelly because Cawl solved the Flesh Tearer's 'problem.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

and even in that case it's questionable weather then Lion WOULD refuse them. He'd be just as likely to thank Gulliman for the reinforcements. given the man isn't as invested in the secrecy about the fallen as his chapter is. for all we know the Lion'd immedaitly upon return grab a beer with Gulliman and be all like "yeah so some of my legion went bad, those silly idiots have been covering it up for ten thousand years can you belive it?"

I totally agree.

I think the Lion being a consummate commander would appreciate having the best tool at his disposal to use. And lore wise that is now supposed to be the primaris astartes.

(Not that I like the new lore much. But from a purely pragmatic standpoint the Imperium needs everything it can get, and if these guys really are a cut above the astartes then who in thier right mind would refuse them? Not any competent commander, surely. And all things else left aside, the Lion is a competent commander.

Depends. The genemods are a flat boost, but Cawltech isn't very compatible with the breadth of tactical flexibility marine tech can bring to bear. Their current use in Dark Angels is about right: A supplement to the "greenwing".

And quite honestly any competent commander with even a sliver of concern for his troops as either people or resources would swiftly drop the use of redemptor dreadnoughts if allowed to act in character in that regard.

I haven't read the SM codex. What's the deal with the Redemptor Dreadnoughts? Similar problems to the HH-era Leviathans?

 Glasdir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The closest would be Dark Angels, who were basically press ganged into using them by Guilliman. They don't let them on in any of the chapter secrets and basically use them as cannon fodder.

IIRC the Flesh Tearers hate them as well and Gabriel Seth actively opposed them being added to his chapter and referred to them as ultramarines in red armour.

He was talking to Dante about Primaris Blood Angels, but yeah. His argument was basically, without the flaws of the geneseed, they lose what makes them Sons of Sanguinius. Although I think even then they accepted them.

Nurglitch wrote:
He's just jelly because Cawl solved the Flesh Tearer's 'problem.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Dark angels keep them locked out thr inner circle etx but not they could refuse primarch orders openly..

Guliman has alot more loyal marines, alot more influence than the dark angels chapter... Legion master.

The only one who could rival him and act as there strong arm would be the Lion.

and even in that case it's questionable weather then Lion WOULD refuse them. He'd be just as likely to thank Gulliman for the reinforcements. given the man isn't as invested in the secrecy about the fallen as his chapter is. for all we know the Lion'd immedaitly upon return grab a beer with Gulliman and be all like "yeah so some of my legion went bad, those silly idiots have been covering it up for ten thousand years can you belive it?"

I totally agree.

I think the Lion being a consummate commander would appreciate having the best tool at his disposal to use. And lore wise that is now supposed to be the primaris astartes.

(Not that I like the new lore much. But from a purely pragmatic standpoint the Imperium needs everything it can get, and if these guys really are a cut above the astartes then who in thier right mind would refuse them? Not any competent commander, surely. And all things else left aside, the Lion is a competent commander.

Depends. The genemods are a flat boost, but Cawltech isn't very compatible with the breadth of tactical flexibility marine tech can bring to bear. Their current use in Dark Angels is about right: A supplement to the "greenwing".

And quite honestly any competent commander with even a sliver of concern for his troops as either people or resources would swiftly drop the use of redemptor dreadnoughts if allowed to act in character in that regard.

I haven't read the SM codex. What's the deal with the Redemptor Dreadnoughts? Similar problems to the HH-era Leviathans?

Similar. Extremely taxing on the pilot.
They burn out quicker than someone else using a regular dreadnought chassis, they have alot more power but also they burn the pilot out faster as a concqunce.

You not see bjorns still about thousands of years later in one of those chassis.

BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

I said this on B&C as well:

Just the mary sue homebrew ones.

As someone who recently started Minotaurs I'm waiting to see just how they are meant to be implemented into the Chapter given it's dubious history and relationship with the Ultramarines.

If they get given a bunch of Primaris then I'd imagine they get treated similarly as with the Dark Angels, with suspicion and used as cannon fodder since their training process causes paranoia.

I'd be surprised if they didn't receive them sooner or later however, since Forge World made Repulsor doors for them

Wayniac wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The closest would be Dark Angels, who were basically press ganged into using them by Guilliman. They don't let them on in any of the chapter secrets and basically use them as cannon fodder.

IIRC the Flesh Tearers hate them as well and Gabriel Seth actively opposed them being added to his chapter and referred to them as ultramarines in red armour.

He was talking to Dante about Primaris Blood Angels, but yeah. His argument was basically, without the flaws of the geneseed, they lose what makes them Sons of Sanguinius. Although I think even then they accepted them.

They did. Seth was bitter about it, but the Flesh Tearers started Desolation of Baal with a pretty wrecked chapter and finished it with next to nothing. As offended as he is by non-flawed Primaris marines, oblivion is the only alternative.

BrianDavion wrote:this. the idea that the non codex compliant chapters dislike Gulliman? is a meme and a bad one. most of the non codex compliant chapters are ancient dating back to the 2nd founding, and they may have their reasons for not following the codex but they'll respect Gulliman eneugh to hear him out on individual issues. We know he managed to gain the respect of the Black Templars, he didn't order them to obey etc. He explained what he was doing and reminded the Black Templars of their history. The Blood Angels? well.. the Primarch basicly saved their blood line and provided them with potentially a rebirth. remember prior to Primars Marines the blood line of Sanguinis was DYING. it was a slow death but it was there. And the blood angels would proably have died out fighting Levithan. so yeah... Gulliman comes along with Primaris Marines? the guys likely viewed by a lotta the blood of Sanguinis as a savior. The Space Wolves? a pratical minded people, They'll force the Primaris Marines to prove themselves, but once they have they'll be accepting.
The Dark angels might be a little leery sure, but at the same time refusing them would likely result in new scrutiny if everyone else is accepting them. The Dark Angels have pretty much taken the most logical course for them. Accept them but keep Primaris out of the inner circle.

The amusing thing is about this non-codex dislike is the actual codex fanatic chapters have even more reason to be offended by Guilliman, since he's casually bending or even breaking the codex in places. The non-codex chapters should be happy, because to some degree he is publically proving them correct (the codex isn't and can't be the be-all-end-all), while the likes of Calgar are feeling at least a little shamed and offended.

But then Guilliman didn't really intend for the Codex to be doctrine anyway, just advice.

RejjeN wrote:
As someone who recently started Minotaurs I'm waiting to see just how they are meant to be implemented into the Chapter given it's dubious history and relationship with the Ultramarines.

If they get given a bunch of Primaris then I'd imagine they get treated similarly as with the Dark Angels, with suspicion and used as cannon fodder since their training process causes paranoia.

I'd be surprised if they didn't receive them sooner or later however, since Forge World made Repulsor doors for them

The Minotaurs, seeing as they're the lapdogs of the HLOT, will be pretty much expected to have them. Guilliman is still a Primarch, and the de facto ruler of the IOM now.

Voss wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The closest would be Dark Angels, who were basically press ganged into using them by Guilliman. They don't let them on in any of the chapter secrets and basically use them as cannon fodder.

IIRC the Flesh Tearers hate them as well and Gabriel Seth actively opposed them being added to his chapter and referred to them as ultramarines in red armour.

He was talking to Dante about Primaris Blood Angels, but yeah. His argument was basically, without the flaws of the geneseed, they lose what makes them Sons of Sanguinius. Although I think even then they accepted them.

They did. Seth was bitter about it, but the Flesh Tearers started Desolation of Baal with a pretty wrecked chapter and finished it with next to nothing. As offended as he is by non-flawed Primaris marines, oblivion is the only alternative.

BrianDavion wrote:this. the idea that the non codex compliant chapters dislike Gulliman? is a meme and a bad one. most of the non codex compliant chapters are ancient dating back to the 2nd founding, and they may have their reasons for not following the codex but they'll respect Gulliman eneugh to hear him out on individual issues. We know he managed to gain the respect of the Black Templars, he didn't order them to obey etc. He explained what he was doing and reminded the Black Templars of their history. The Blood Angels? well.. the Primarch basicly saved their blood line and provided them with potentially a rebirth. remember prior to Primars Marines the blood line of Sanguinis was DYING. it was a slow death but it was there. And the blood angels would proably have died out fighting Levithan. so yeah... Gulliman comes along with Primaris Marines? the guys likely viewed by a lotta the blood of Sanguinis as a savior. The Space Wolves? a pratical minded people, They'll force the Primaris Marines to prove themselves, but once they have they'll be accepting.
The Dark angels might be a little leery sure, but at the same time refusing them would likely result in new scrutiny if everyone else is accepting them. The Dark Angels have pretty much taken the most logical course for them. Accept them but keep Primaris out of the inner circle.

The amusing thing is about this non-codex dislike is the actual codex fanatic chapters have even more reason to be offended by Guilliman, since he's casually bending or even breaking the codex in places. The non-codex chapters should be happy, because to some degree he is publically proving them correct (the codex isn't and can't be the be-all-end-all), while the likes of Calgar are feeling at least a little shamed and offended.

But then Guilliman didn't really intend for the Codex to be doctrine anyway, just advice.

I rather liked how, in Dark Imperium, that Calgar is alternately ashamed by Guilliman, or disappointed by his lack of reverence for his relics.

None that I have heard of. Although I am unaware as to what makes primaris marines more special than tacticools. I might pick some up if the stats are good though, and they fit in my army functionality wise.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

RejjeN wrote:
As someone who recently started Minotaurs I'm waiting to see just how they are meant to be implemented into the Chapter given it's dubious history and relationship with the Ultramarines.

If they get given a bunch of Primaris then I'd imagine they get treated similarly as with the Dark Angels, with suspicion and used as cannon fodder since their training process causes paranoia.

I'd be surprised if they didn't receive them sooner or later however, since Forge World made Repulsor doors for them

The Minotaurs, seeing as they're the lapdogs of the HLOT, will be pretty much expected to have them. Guilliman is still a Primarch, and the de facto ruler of the IOM now.

Keep in mind Gulliman isn't primarch of the Ultramarines CHAPTER. but Primarch of the LEGION. Given the odds chances are Gulliman could be the minotaurs primarch as well. even if he isn't? he's still a high lord, leader of the council, Imperial regent. They're gonna do as he says. THAT SAID, I imagine their rivalry with the ULTRAMARINES may well have gone up a notch. Gulliman, understandably, seems to rely on the Ultramarines and progenitor chapters as his "go tos" which means I suspect the Minotaurs no longer occupy QUITE the position of privilage they are used to. I suspect they may well resent the new favored marines

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

less then 200 as I understand it. the flaws in geneseed of the non primaris IIRC didn't show up this early eaither

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

less then 200 as I understand it. the flaws in geneseed of the non primaris IIRC didn't show up this early eaither

Aye flaws where late crusade to Hersey etx.
So that means that least 2-3 centuries before flaws showed to any real degree.

BrianDavion wrote:
Accept them but keep Primaris out of the inner circle.

Except that is wrong, there are primaris in inner circle already.

I must say, I like the amount of salt among DA fanon fanboys primaris caused last year, and how they latched to Phil Kelly's offhand remark (despite him being pretty much worst GW author when it comes to lore, never mind his atrocious rules) about distrust and none of them bothered to read actual codex plainly stating the above

 Manchu wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on SWs being "natives" (a question in itself) of Fenris, considering that like all the Legions the original inductees were Terran.

There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

 Irbis wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

But the wolves are still alive. They apcepted primias and took them into chapter right?

They survived.
New primias can be trained like old school wolves to some degree and culture maintained just as now bigger, new marines.

Primas marine geneseed is very likely use able by more than just Fenris natives.

So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

 Irbis wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

They aren't Vlka Fenryka. They never had to survive the long winters of Fenris, they never had to see the Eye of Russ swell in the sky and their homes destroyed by the meteors and earthquakes. They were never chosen from the ranks of the valiant dead on the battlefield. They never had to walk back to the Fang, naked and alone, to pass though the Gates of Morkai and take his place as one of Russ's chosen. Better to die free than to live a slave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

GW are pulling a reverse-League of Legends. They are making Chadmarines underpowered, so no-one complains. Then when 9th edition rolls around, they will retire Tacticals from both the model line and the rules, making Tacticals "Index only" and have all the special characters upgraded to Primaris (as is able to happen fluffwise). All oldMarine rules and kits will be retired.

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

points costs are the big factor for us if things are OP or not, but consider from an in universe POV...

if you where told "you can take 100 space marines to this fight" would you take tac marines? or Primaris marines?

For those that say the new Marines will not come to the DA inner circle, I present...




If you follow Dark Angel lore, you will know that you do not don the robes in the chapter unless you are told some higher level secrets or are part of the inner circle. Generally Sergeants and above know to some extent the secrets of the chapter thus they don the robes. Lieutenants, primaris or not, are essentially Captains in waiting and as you can see on the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah model, he is privy to the chapters secrets by note of donning the robes. And to be clear, there are different levels of the circle of trust the Dark Angels have in place before you reach inner circle(which include promotions from company to company as seen in the novel Ravenwing), and a Marine will wear robes to signify his status in the circle.

I'm curious to see if Primaris Captains will don the winged helms many other captains favor as a sign of their office.

revisting this BTW, it seems one reason for the Primaris acceptance was the Custodes accompanying Gulliman not openly supported them, but said they had the emperor's favor.

BrianDavion wrote:
revisting this BTW, it seems one reason for the Primaris acceptance was the Custodes accompanying Gulliman not openly supported them, but said they had the emperor's favor.

Plus if they never have it up. Well a custoes has the old powers similar to inquisition and are considered a direct representation of emparor.

So. They are immune to any orders and by default. Carry his authority. Anyone with them in escort has by extension the emparos favour.

No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

'
well not judged traitor but simply "one does not decline a gift from the emperor's own hand"

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

Aye. They just follow his lead when it is political and stratagy wise adventagous. Which when a primarch is alot of the time be honest with current situation.

He still cannot order, but they do respect him somewhat, ernough that they follow him into battle in dark impirum.

Yeah. Only ones who can refuse a inquisitor and they cannot do a single thing against them. I don't see a chapter master arguing it no. The may also have the original powers to kill anyone they see fit as a enemy. Without recourse, even a inquisitor or high lord. (politcal problems aside)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

'
well not judged traitor but simply "one does not decline a gift from the emperor's own hand"

That's basically a traitors confession.
They are the emparors emissary. They carry his authority. To refuse that is defenitely treason.

I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

In time all marines will be primaris marines, including chaos marines, and probably 30k marines. Inconsistencies and logical fallacies will be retconned away. The entire primaris marines fluff is a way for GW to gradually replace it's power armoured product line with marines of a more super-human scale. This process will take many years, so the old models will need to remain in production for a while. But in due time every single dude in power armour will be as tall as a Newmarine, will have multiple wounds and an easily trademarked name. And yes, that includes the Dank Angels.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
In time all marines will be primaris marines, including chaos marines, and probably 30k marines. Inconsistencies and logical fallacies will be retconned away. The entire primaris marines fluff is a way for GW to gradually replace it's power armoured product line with marines of a more super-human scale. This process will take many years, so the old models will need to remain in production for a while. But in due time every single dude in power armour will be as tall as a Newmarine, will have multiple wounds and an easily trademarked name. And yes, that includes the Dank Angels.

Agreed. I would not be surprised if 9th edition was a complete and total reset of the lore. They want to remove Slaanesh too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

At least make them Metallic Blue then Otherwise Kitten will be sad.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

At least make them Metallic Blue then Otherwise Kitten will be sad.

I was thinking blue cloth actually.

In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

 Rhomen wrote:
For those that say the new Marines will not come to the DA inner circle, I present...

Spoiler:

If you follow Dark Angel lore, you will know that you do not don the robes in the chapter unless you are told some higher level secrets or are part of the inner circle. Generally Sergeants and above know to some extent the secrets of the chapter thus they don the robes. Lieutenants, primaris or not, are essentially Captains in waiting and as you can see on the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah model, he is privy to the chapters secrets by note of donning the robes. And to be clear, there are different levels of the circle of trust the Dark Angels have in place before you reach inner circle(which include promotions from company to company as seen in the novel Ravenwing), and a Marine will wear robes to signify his status in the circle.

I'm curious to see if Primaris Captains will don the winged helms many other captains favor as a sign of their office.

Well, people were arguing about the inner circle. Having robes is certainly not a sign of being part of the inner circle. That said, Primaris librarians have the inner circle keyword.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Was he still upset about Dorn's 5/10 "It was ok" review?

On a more serious note, happen to know the name of that story?

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

BrianDavion wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

The old edicts made by Primarchs took on the status of religious commands with the Primarchs filling the role of archangels to the Emperor's role as God. Only a similarly powerful figure could undo their commands, as to claim you know better than a Primarch can easily be argued to be hubris by one's political enemies. Prior to the return of Guilliman, there were no such figures of sufficient stature to undo his edicts, and seeking religious guidance for the will of the Emperor never brought clear enough answers to bring about consensus of opinion.

The following quote was by me, and I think describes the state of the Imperium prior to the return of Guilliman:

The Imperium can be likened to a ship stuck on autopilot. It is structured in such a way that the actions of local organizations and factions cancel out more or less in the big scheme. It a structure that reacts against and resists change, attempting to restore the old status quo. The only individuals that were capable through sheer force of charisma or power to enact change on a wide scale, such as the Emperor, the Primarchs, or Sebastian Thor (and it is debateable how much fundamental change he really accomplished), are all dead or otherwise out of action.

In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

The old edicts made by Primarchs took on the status of religious commands with the Primarchs filling the role of archangels to the Emperor's role as God. Only a similarly powerful figure could undo their commands, as to claim you know better than a Primarch can easily be argued to be hubris by one's political enemies. Prior to the return of Guilliman, there were no such figures of sufficient stature to undo his edicts, and seeking religious guidance for the will of the Emperor never brought clear enough answers to bring about consensus of opinion.

The following quote was by me, and I think describes the state of the Imperium prior to the return of Guilliman:

The Imperium can be likened to a ship stuck on autopilot. It is structured in such a way that the actions of local organizations and factions cancel out more or less in the big scheme. It a structure that reacts against and resists change, attempting to restore the old status quo. The only individuals that were capable through sheer force of charisma or power to enact change on a wide scale, such as the Emperor, the Primarchs, or Sebastian Thor (and it is debateable how much fundamental change he really accomplished), are all dead or otherwise out of action.

In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Yeah, the needing a Primarch to undo the rule makes sense, given the emparor is not able too reverse it.

If the custodes pushed it they maybe could use there we are the right hand of the emparor status and ignore but thats asuming alot. There top ranking officer agreed and ratified the deal, aka the captain general, and probbly 3 surviving tribunes from the war in the webway.

(Given there nature, they got to be badly mauled to be out of the fight, very badly)
anyway when the agreement was made in battles after heresey, the 10,000 had lost maybe 8-9000 in webway, battle of terra was menat to have some 50% of those remaining too wounded to fight and under medical care by some fluff i read somewhere/

they where not in any place to be dictating terms with some 5% -10%of there force total preciously combat capable forces ready. Even Valador a legandery hero, would be hard pressed to counter bargin primarchs who still mantained 100,000 plus legions like guliman

Iracundus wrote:



A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Well, the very decision to re-estabilish the greater Ultrama may be seen as an attempt to reform the Imperium... replacing it, or at least providing a benchmark which has proven to function for well more than 10,000 years.

Machs wrote:

Iracundus wrote:



A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Well, the very decision to re-estabilish the greater Ultrama may be seen as an attempt to reform the Imperium... replacing it, or at least providing a benchmark which has proven to function for well more than 10,000 years.

In imperial terms it also secures his heavily defended home sector and recourses. The 500 world's is a good asset to hold.

He may be a imperial regent, but always handy to have your own reliable resources available. Guaranteed loyalty is helpful when in power.

Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Benchmark? More like lofty ambition.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Benchmark? More like lofty ambition.

both really, Gulliman wants Ultramar to be a model for the rest of the IoM to aspire to

Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

Err... wot?

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

It seems to mean. You can look to borders and see ultramar sector. A well run and fairly decent area of space by 40k standards anyway.

You look to other worlds. You try and copy ultramar abit and use its ideas to improve your own existence I guess?

 jhe90 wrote:

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

It seems to mean. You can look to borders and see ultramar sector. A well run and fairly decent area of space by 40k standards anyway.

You look to other worlds. You try and copy ultramar abit and use its ideas to improve your own existence I guess?

Yes, that's the logic. Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Yep. His personal fortress zone of space, where necessary knows he has allies. And knows he had loyalty of its fleets, armies and marines.

You'd be mad not to reinforce your own sector as enemi stalk you. If you need reliable men. Ultramar. If things go bad. Your world's are now stronger, more of them and gives you a better base to hold out in till things blow over.

The stronger your home zone. The stronger your own position.

Machs wrote:
Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Don't talk to me about Cadia.

Cadia holds the line of the spirit!

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Machs wrote:
Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Don't talk to me about Cadia.

Cadia broke before the guard did!

 CursedMagi wrote:
None that I have heard of. Although I am unaware as to what makes primaris marines more special than tacticools. I might pick some up if the stats are good though, and they fit in my army functionality wise.

quick in-game summary:

Each primaris is generally the equal to two standard marines in wounds and firepower output. They have less options (no heavy or special weapons members) and most can only alternate their main gun. They are an effective but expensive addition to your list.

Fluff wise they are new, improved marines with 2 additional organs and a purer geneseed stock. The initial batches were frozen in cryo and brought out for a nearly imperium spanning crusade and then used as reinforcements for existing chapters.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 CursedMagi wrote:
None that I have heard of. Although I am unaware as to what makes primaris marines more special than tacticools. I might pick some up if the stats are good though, and they fit in my army functionality wise.

quick in-game summary:

Each primaris is generally the equal to two standard marines in wounds and firepower output. They have less options (no heavy or special weapons members) and most can only alternate their main gun. They are an effective but expensive addition to your list.

Fluff wise they are new, improved marines with 2 additional organs and a purer geneseed stock. The initial batches were frozen in cryo and brought out for a nearly imperium spanning crusade and then used as reinforcements for existing chapters.

They don't have twice the firepower. Per wound, they have half the volume, if slightly better quality.

Hey there EmpNorthonII
You said that

At least one Chapter (Carcharodons) have obtained their Primaris marines from non-Gulliman sources.

Just curious where this Information comes from.

There is a joke about the failures of online dating in here somewhere...

... Your profile said your were only 8 feet tall.

Is that a problem?

Well, starting off a relationship with a lie is kinda...

I have three extra organs.

Check, please!

 darkcloak wrote:
There is a joke about the failures of online dating in here somewhere...

... Your profile said your were only 8 feet tall.

Is that a problem?

Well, starting off a relationship with a lie is kinda...

I have three extra organs.

Check, please!

This is even funnier if you remember that the old fluff puts Marines as having no sex drive whatsoever.

"Take me!"

"...Where?"

 Zakiriel wrote:
Hey there EmpNorthonII
You said that

At least one Chapter (Carcharodons) have obtained their Primaris marines from non-Gulliman sources.

Just curious where this Information comes from.

Robbie MacNiven on FB -

Yeah, haha the old fluff.

Some of that was pretty good, but throwing in the no sex drive thing was kinda like...

Like that had the opposite effect.

I'm sure if you tried to Google it, the internet is full of that sort of fan art.

On topic and totally not making jokes about Oldmarines going on blind dates with Primarines now.

That's a very interesting bit about the Carcharodons. If I went back to Oldmarines I'd pick them, so awesome. However I'm making a small Ultima Founding chapter that got roflstomped by some as of yet unknown baddies. This is mostly because I don't want to buy a hundred numarines! But my question is this, how likely is it that a chapter of new guys who really messed up and got wiped is going to be rebuilt? Are the older chapters going to help them or just leave them to their fate?

Like, all the chapters got reinforced with Primaris Marines, or most of them right? BrB makes it sound like the Primaris Marines are generally well accepted, but how long is that going to last?

My idea for a chapter of numarines kind of revolves around the idea that they are not very well liked and have a lot to prove to other chapters. I mean, there has to be some anti-primaris sentiment out there. The galaxy is too awful a place for everyone to just be pals. Especially giant man children warriors who have a history of betrayal and infighting.

Non-Guilliman sources could mean Custodes, as the Custodes Codex does say they have acted as emissaries bringing the Primaris Marines to Chapters, and ensuring they accept, which they do due to the Custodes's status as bodyguards/representatives of the Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
Non-Guilliman sources could mean Custodes, as the Custodes Codex does say they have acted as emissaries bringing the Primaris Marines to Chapters, and ensuring they accept, which they do due to the Custodes's status as bodyguards/representatives of the Emperor.

that'd be a safe bet yeah

I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Turned on Sanguinis? hardly, they fought and argued but thats hardly a turn on, and by the end of ruinstorm it seems gulliman, sanguinis and the lion had all come to terms and developed respect for one another.

that's the thing, the people who think everyone hates Gulliman? thats them PROJECTING their own views of the character onto everyone else. and yes some chapters may have resisted gulliman alone, but he also had the custode with him telling them this is a gift from the emperor. not something to be refused.

you need to look at it from this point of view, Literally the last living Primarch comes down to you, wielding the sword of the emperor, flanked by the custodes telling you these new troops are emperor gifted..

that's some pretty heavy stuff.

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Primaris are Cawl's creation (his, and huge team of magos biologis', most likely) not Guilliman's. Chapters can still think that Guilliman is a asshat, and recognise the value of improved warriors.

BrianDavion wrote:

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Turned on Sanguinis? hardly, they fought and argued but thats hardly a turn on, and by the end of ruinstorm it seems gulliman, sanguinis and the lion had all come to terms and developed respect for one another.

that's the thing, the people who think everyone hates Gulliman? thats them PROJECTING their own views of the character onto everyone else. and yes some chapters may have resisted gulliman alone, but he also had the custode with him telling them this is a gift from the emperor. not something to be refused.

you need to look at it from this point of view, Literally the last living Primarch comes down to you, wielding the sword of the emperor, flanked by the custodes telling you these new troops are emperor gifted..

that's some pretty heavy stuff.

That's the thing tha players seem to forget: how the Imperium's religious mentality affects the view. Yes I would argue the Marines are effectively religious despite their denials. Guilliman is more than just a superhero giant. In the view of Imperials, he is the equivalent of an archangel. Myths are told about him and the other Primarchs. Add on the Custodes accompanying him, as symbolic approval of the Emperor, and refusing to accept is tantamount to refusing a direct commandment from God.

Guilliman didn't get on players' nerves that much in 2nd edition. If anything he was overlooked as bland or boring. It was not until Ward went overboard that there was this backlash. Guilliman was probably the best of the loyalist Primarchs to bring back (or the best first one) because his particular flair was for logistics and administration, and that is arguably the most important thing if the goal is to rejuvenate the Imperium as a whole. Such talents might seem boring in the context of a war game with super powered character combat monsters, but logistics, economics, and grand strategy is what is important on the scale of the Imperium.

I remember the days, those heady ancient days, back before it was cool to hate the Ultramarines. If not for their golden standard, none of the non-codex compliant chapters would be as unique.

There's a part of me that wants to paint up an Ultramarines Primaris force to inject a bit of the flavor from the Dornian Heresy alternate fiction (an excellent read) where the Empire of Ultramar are seperatists, who actually have more advanced weapons and armor than that of the Imperium, as they did not have a problem with innovation.

Makes more sense in the modern fluff of the 'Dark Imperium' than most of the actual Cawl story, and gives a better reason for the always inevitable marines vs. marines battles. Simple issue of calling all the successors home and rearming them in the face of everything collapsing. Would also give a nice flaw to the Ultramarines, as they take care of their own first.

 Crimson wrote:

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Primaris are Cawl's creation (his, and huge team of magos biologis', most likely) not Guilliman's. Chapters can still think that Guilliman is a asshat, and recognise the value of improved warriors.

This is the Imperium of Man in the 41st millennium, suspicion and closed mindedness are the status quo and everything done by the Emperor is treated as being divine and holy. For some Mechanicus magos to take one of His creations (the gene seeds for the adeptus astartes) and manipulate it to be "better" is heresy of the highest magnitude. To think some lowly mortal/robot/whatever can make something better than the Emperor himself could make is both insulting to the Emperor, tech heresy, and possibly a plot by Chaos to corrupt the Emperor's work. I would see other chapters accepting the leadership of Gulliman well before accepting this corrupted geneseed into their fold.

Except a holy son of the Emperor is saying accept the Primaris as sanctioned gifts of the Emperor. The Custodes who are physically closest in actual distance to the Emperor are saying accept the Primaris as intended gifts of the Emperor. Both of these sources stand higher in the Imperial religious hierarchy of knowing the Emperor's will than "mere" Space Marines. Refusing the Emperor's gifts and resisting the Emperor's intentions is heresy.

Iracundus wrote:
Except a holy son of the Emperor is saying accept the Primaris as sanctioned gifts of the Emperor. The Custodes who are physically closest in actual distance to the Emperor are saying accept the Primaris as intended gifts of the Emperor. Both of these sources stand higher in the Imperial religious hierarchy of knowing the Emperor's will than "mere" Space Marines. Refusing the Emperor's gifts and resisting the Emperor's intentions is heresy.

and the marines have been told this. The Hammer's of Dorn, an ultra orthadox codex following chapter, noted to have a chip on their shoulder re the Ultramarines (they basicly aspire to be better at the UMs game thewn the UMs) where told by the Custodes..

"Through the artiface of the Martian Preisthood where these warriors created. By the grace of the almighty Emperor are they given now to you.Silence your questions and instead rejoice at the honor done to you this day. You are handed the gift of hope by the Immortal Master of Mankind himself, and you will accedpt it with sincere and solemn gradtiude, lest you be taken for the traitors you so profess to hate"

so yeah there's no real room here, the Custodes are outright saying "This is the Emperor's will. you WILL take the Primaris Marines." and the folks saying this are the branch of the Custodes best noted for divineing the emperor's will.

Someone reminded me that in the Dark Imperium novel that Cawl mentions that the Primaris marines are integrated into 94% of all space marine chapters. Some possible canidates:

* Chapters on pentient crusades (altough the carchadons have received primaris)
* Chapters out of contact with the Imperium
* The rare ultra-ultra-orthodox chapter or one that is trying to hide renegade leanings. If the soul drinkers were still around, I don't see Gulliman handing them geneseed of any sort.

 Vankraken wrote:


This is the Imperium of Man in the 41st millennium, suspicion and closed mindedness are the status quo and everything done by the Emperor is treated as being divine and holy. For some Mechanicus magos to take one of His creations (the gene seeds for the adeptus astartes) and manipulate it to be "better" is heresy of the highest magnitude. To think some lowly mortal/robot/whatever can make something better than the Emperor himself could make is both insulting to the Emperor, tech heresy, and possibly a plot by Chaos to corrupt the Emperor's work. I would see other chapters accepting the leadership of Gulliman well before accepting this corrupted geneseed into their fold.

Perhaps so, but my point is that acceptance of the Primaris and reverence of Guilliman are not necessarily linked. One can be OK with one while not being OK with another.

And Ad Mech messing with the geneseed is not exactly a new thing. They've always done it. Does 21st (Cursed) Founding ring a bell?

So I hear that the Flesh Tearers refused to have Primaris marines added to their ranks as they do not have the gene flaw and therefore do not know how to carry on with said flaw.

Gabriel Seth didn't like them initially, but they still have them.

Could be though that he only accepted them because...well, a primarch showed up to turn them over to him.

I would imagine the Flesh Tearers treat their primaris marines much like the Dark Angels and keep them at arms' length. The DA view the primaris somewhat suspiciously/resentfully and don't fully integrate them into the chapter's culture.

It's a cop-out for letting players decide whether they want to build armies that are mixed marines or "pure" one way or another, sure, but I'm happy that it sets a lore precedent for these sort of things. Lets everyone play with their toy soldiers how they want.

Well I'm glad the Dark Angels don't trust Primaries. I like the idea of the Ultima Founding chapters having a bit of a hurdle to overcome in that regard. Far better than everyone is just Bros, cuz even if that is the case you know it can't last long.

Also, kind of a funny story. When I bought the medium starter box and was reading about Primaris Marines I got interested and so I googled them at work while on my break. I read the bit about the secret Legions on Mars and I say aloud 'fething heretics!', not noticing the lady standing beside me... That got me a weird look!

Did anyone else have that reaction when they read about the Primaris Marines creation?

 darkcloak wrote:

Did anyone else have that reaction when they read about the Primaris Marines creation?

Yes, the whole lore is a mess. But It helped me to think it basically as a new Cursed Founding, except this time things have gone a bit better (at least thus far.) In my headcanon the Cursed Founding was basically for testing prototype Primaris marines.

I rather like the idea of Primaris Marines, maybe sans the whole 10k old already part, but like you say as something flawed. Or perhaps they struggle in the same way as regular marines? Losing homeworlds or getting stomped in battle and having to rebuild. And we all know some of them are going to fall to chaos sooner or later.

That's when PMs are going to get interesting!

I think it might be a stretch to say the dark angels don't trust the primaris marines, at least anymore than the dark angels distrust everyone that's not already in the inner circle. Some of the primaris have been added to the inner circle, more as matter of necessity than desire (kind of hard to keep secrets from telepaths). The line I think everyone misinterprets is:

Typically such men served in the Deathwing, where they further distinguished themselves, although with the arrival of reinforcements from the Ultima Founding, promotions to Company Master without membership of the Inner Circle is far less rare than of old.

It can take a Dark Angel a hundred years to earn their way into the inner circle if they ever make it at all. In fact the vast majority of dark angels never earn their way in. So I wouldn't read too much into the fact primaris Masters are rarely if ever part of the inner circle, that will probably change as time goes on. As far as the dark angels are concerned the new guys haven't put in their time. Being in the inner circle isn't a privilege, or an honor bestowed like a medal, it's a burden shared between genebrothers with only those that they know can bear it.

I also suspect when we start seeing primaris versions of special characters their stance will have softened. It would be hard to argue against their inclusion in the inner circle when say azrael is one of them.