Just been reading an article about the forthcoming Gotham by Gaslight, and it's got me all in a tizzy.
See, whilst I'm ambivalent at best to their live action efforts, DC simply cannot be whacked for their animated fare.
For every Suicide Squad, there's an Assault on Arkham. And of course, for every Batfleck, there's the near-genre defining Batman The Animated Series (personal taste here folks).
But which ones would you recommend? Before I go making a 'found a bunch of recommendations on Amazon' shopping list, are their any Must Haves, or indeed any Absolute Stinkers?
Sing the praises and give me your recommendations, Dakkanauts.
Under the Red Hood is one of my top faves, with great storytelling and animation. It has a very suitable and haunting ending. Justice League Doom, Batman:Mask of the Phantasm, Superman vs the Elite, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earth's, the Flashpoint Paradox are all super great stand alone DC movies. Also justice league God's and monsters if you want a cool elseworld story.
The ones I would stay sway from is sadly the Killing Joke, the weird new 52 Justice League movies (except maybe Justice League Dark, that was okay) and basically anything with Damian Wayne in it. Batman and Harley Quinn was okay but nowhere near the calibre of the best hits selection I previously mentioned.
Didn't quite work for me in the end, which is a shame. Just felt like, I dunno, 'there was a calorie missing' or something, some vital spark which should've set it all off?
Mark of Phantasm is superb, and I'll check out the other recommendations.
On the New 52 stuff - other than watching the moves and animated stuff, I know very little about DC's stable. Does that affect your recommendation any, or are they just generally a bit rubbish?
Absolute top tier, must watch ect:
- The Dark Knight Returns parts 1 and 2 (very faithful adaptation, absolute top quality voicework and animation)
- Under the Red Hood (likewise, a very good adaptation of a classic, some incredibly slick fight scenes and as a bonus, the fantastic Jason Isaccs as Ras Al Ghul!)
- Batman: Bad Blood: Probably the best of the new Batman ones, if you're a fan of the Bat-team dynamic currently going on in Detective Comics then this is a cracker, it's got a similar setup with Robin, Nightwing, Batwoman and Batwing stepping in while Batman is MIA. Jason O'Mara is no Conroy, but I still think a lot of his work as The Bat is very good.
- Justice League: War- The first of the 'rebooted' JL films with a new cast, but it's based on the (fantastic) first volume of the N52 JL run and while it's a fairly straightforward 'heroes do battle and banter against, each other, a faceless army and their boss', it does it better than anything since Avengers Assemble.
- Batman/Superman: Public Enemies: Based on the comic of the same name, this one is great just because it's one of the few times you get to see the more mature version of these characters in the DCAU. Batman and Superman have gotten over their issues and are now the firmest of friends, Lex is on the up and up as president. And they've voiced by the great Conroy, Daly and Clancy Brown respectively.
- The Flashpoint Paradox: The ultimate in DC animated. Superb voice work, slick animation, faithful and entertaining adaption. Probably the best
Also recommended:
- JL: Crisis on Two Earths
- Superman vs The Elite
- Superman Unbound
- Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin (way better than it sounds)
- Justice League Dark (More Matt Ryan as Constantine, 'nuff said)
- Justice League: The New Frontier (Bit of an odd one, you'll love it or hate it. It's a throwback to the silver age which will either really work for you or won't fly at all)
Avoid:
- Superman: Doom (the version of Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen so bad they're remaking it next year with a promise to do it properly.)
- Killing Joke- The awesomeness of Conroy and Hamill squandered on a a film that shoehorns in a weird Batman/Batgirl romance and is far longer than it ought to be. Just watch your pick of the BTAS Joker episodes instead.
- Justice League Vs Teen Titans- There's a 5-minute long Robin-vs-Beast Boy dance-off segment, and the whole thing is basically a 'Damien Wayne could beat up the JL just like his dad' story which just falls flat. The sequel, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, is much, much better and can be watched on its own.
There are plenty others that are entirely decent (Wonder Woman, Green Lantern: First Flight, Supes/Bats: Apocalypse, JL: Throne of Atlantis) if you like the characters/stories they're based on, but the list above is what I reckon to be the best and worst. It'd also be remiss of me not to plug Young Justice, both seasons are on Amazon Prime and well worth a watch (and a third is happening later this year). Actually, that's a good point, quite a few of these are on Prime so check before you purchase them if you have access to that.
On the New 52 stuff - other than watching the moves and animated stuff, I know very little about DC's stable. Does that affect your recommendation any, or are they just generally a bit rubbish?
The biggest difference is the cast. Gone are Kevin Conroy, George Newburn and Susan Eisenberg, but their replacements do a very good job making the characters their own. Jason O'Mara's Batman in particular is consistently good, especially in the JL stuff where he absolutely nails the dry remarks and comebacks (and, incidentally, has a buddy-cop dynamic with Green Lantern which is absolutely crying out for a team-up movie!).
Speaking strictly of the animated film canon they've been chucking out these past few years, without a doubt I think the best ones are;
Assault on Arkham
Batman: Under the Red Hood*
Batman Year One
Superman vs The Elite
*I love the depiction of Joker in this one. He's just sinisterly evil fun.
Most of the films in the animated films they've been chucking out range from okay to good. Only one or two I think are truly bad (their first attempt at Wonder Woman). You really can't go wrong here.
As for other films Lego batman is amazing. Personally I think that regardless of how anyone felt about Batman Beyond as a show, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker was a superb film.
It's rather dated now, but I still think Mask of Phantasm was the best one.
But it's really only been the last few years that they've gotten rather hit and miss, pick any before Justice League: War and you've got a decent film.
Yeah Under the Red Hood was really good, mask of the Phantasm is an oldy but good enoughthat I still remember liking it all these years later.
Killing Joke just sucked. All that hype and I finished it with a scowl on my face. I never read that comic and its constantly on the best comics lists so maybe I missed something.....I dunno
The Killing Joke suffered from a few things I think.
One is that to make the film feature length (the comic is long enough on its own) they added a whole other and ultimately irrelevant first half that has nothing to really do with the source material and really just wasn't that good. I'd also say that given the whole thing came off as an excuse to berate Barbara Gordon as a card board cut out of "the stupid teenage girl who thinks she should be taken seriously while constantly fretting about stupid teenage girl stuff." IMO it was in horribly bad taste given the second half of the movie. So in a film based on the Killing Joke the movie is half over before any of the content from the comic actually comes up. And the half that comes before it not only wasn't very good, but was borderline jarring in how it handled a principle character of the story.
Two the animation quality was noticeably mediocre and does a horrible... no not horrible outright gak job of translating the comic to screen. The film follows closely to the animated style of Batman: The Animated Series. So closely in fact I'd charge that the quality is too low for a movie, even a direct to DVD one. The other side of this coin is that the art in the comic is iconic. Numerous frames are famed at this point and even people who haven't read it have probably seen this one. Now compare. The animation worked sucked and wasn't remotely up to any standard imo.
The only good thing about the film adaptation was the voice work, which I can't hate. Mark Hamill as Joker will never be bad. I suppose the film may have been doomed in a way. The comic is only 46 pages long. They inevitably had to fill time with something. Ultimately though I think the chief issues with the movie were its horrible animation quality, and the irrelevant (and again, horribly bad taste) first half of the film.
It really is a good movie. Sensible plot. Good twists. Some mystery. The ending in particular I felt really cemented Terry McGinnis as having earned the name Batman as his own, rather than simply going on as Bruce's shadow/replacement. It was a worthwhile resolution to the Beyond sage at the time, and I think a pretty damn good film on its own.
Under the red hood is definitely the best. Though Bender as Joker can throw me off a bit, sometimes the voice is a little too close.
I find a lot of the more recent New 52 stories to be not great, including JL and Batman. Like others have said though, Justice League Dark and Bad Blood is the best of them.
The Flashpoint Paradox is great and is easy is far better than the comic is based on. It works surprisingly well as an introduction to The Flash.
Superman VS The Elite I feel is an essential film to understand who and what Superman is and why he's important. If someone thinks Superman is boring or the Zack Snyder version of the character is the only way to make him worthwhile, this is the film I recommend to them, if tackles that point of view head on.
For bonus points afterwards, I recommend "All Star Superman" - its kinda sappy but there's just something about it that just makes me feel all these... Shudder... Feelings... And... Emotions each time I watch it.
I rewatched the WW film over Christmas. There's lots of good things in there, mythology fun, Steve Trevor played by Nathan Fillon. The problem is WW herself. I wouldn't say it's the politics of it, as such, WW is inherently a political character, that's her job. The thing I found lies enjoyable was unlike the live action film of the recent WW rebirth series, Diana is an angry Wonder Woman.
It's like that bit in the live action with "we are all to blame" but for the whole film, which is rather, well, not fun to watch.
My issue with the WW one is that the story is pretty much identical to the live action movie, but the latter just does it way better. I've got nothing against the film itself, but there's just a better version of the same out there so it's never a priority to watch.
Suicide Squad has the opposite issue, I'll put the first 30 minutes on then watch Assault on Arkham instead!
Paradigm wrote: Avoid:
- Superman: Doom (the version of Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen so bad they're remaking it next year with a promise to do it properly.)
- Killing Joke- The awesomeness of Conroy and Hamill squandered on a a film that shoehorns in a weird Batman/Batgirl romance and is far longer than it ought to be. Just watch your pick of the BTAS Joker episodes instead.
- Justice League Vs Teen Titans- There's a 5-minute long Robin-vs-Beast Boy dance-off segment, and the whole thing is basically a 'Damien Wayne could beat up the JL just like his dad' story which just falls flat. The sequel, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, is much, much better and can be watched on its own.
Pretty much this. Watch them all other than these. Also check out the original Batman TAS movies, as well as the Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker movie.
Assault on Arkham is one I really like. Flashpoint Paradox is also great.
LordofHats wrote: I'd also say that given the whole thing came off as an excuse to berate Barbara Gordon as a card board cut out of "the stupid teenage girl who thinks she should be taken seriously while constantly fretting about stupid teenage girl stuff." IMO it was in horribly bad taste given the second half of the movie.
I saw it as an attempt to give something for Batgirl to do, to make her a character rather than just someone who gets crippled at the start of the story. Add some reason for the audience to care other than "good person getting hurt".
H.B.M.C. wrote: I saw it as an attempt to give something for Batgirl to do, to make her a character rather than just someone who gets crippled at the start of the story. Add some reason for the audience to care other than "good person getting hurt".
I think they wanted to humanize her before getting to the whole shot and tortured thing certainly. I just think the story they told to do that was in bad taste given where she was going to end up.
Focusing on Barbara in the expanded content isn't a horrible idea. Her role in the Killing Joke has always been contentious. But the content was just bad. They could have integrated the first half into the second much better. Maybe tell the story of how Joker got out of his cell? Split in the scenes of him setting up his scheme throughout the first half instead of not even having the plot of the Killing Joke start until halfway through the film. They didn't do that though. The first half comes off as irrelevant. The stories aren't related. There's no interweaving of the plot. They don't even line up thematically which seemed to be what was attempted but I don't think it worked at all.
Paradigm wrote: Absolute top tier, must watch ect:
- The Dark Knight Returns parts 1 and 2 (very faithful adaptation, absolute top quality voicework and animation)
Just watched this one yesterday. Very good movie! Be warned though, Jared Leto's joker is portrayed in this (minus tattoos). This is also why Mark Hamill didn't do the voice. Mark Hamill supplys the voice of a different joker. If you are a little confused there are three different jokers in the DC universe.
Paradigm wrote: Absolute top tier, must watch ect:
- The Dark Knight Returns parts 1 and 2 (very faithful adaptation, absolute top quality voicework and animation)
Just watched this one yesterday. Very good movie! Be warned though, Jared Leto's joker is portrayed in this (minus tattoos). This is also why Mark Hamill didn't do the voice. Mark Hamill supplys the voice of a different joker. If you are a little confused there are three different jokers in the DC universe.
To clarify, with DKR it's more a case of it not being part of the main film continuity and having a totally different voice cast rather than the Three Jokers thing; while you can quite easily associate various portrayals of The Joker with the 3 implied versions in the comics (I reckon Hamill for the Silver Age, John DiMaggio/Heath Ledger as the 'current' one, maybe Troy Baker as the one in the middle?) but that's not the reason for the different version on screen. It's all just down to the various actors' takes on a role that can be written and played in any number of ways.
His vocal talents aren't a one-trick pony. He can do campy-silly Joker when needed, and then twist into something far darker and more sinister as required. Not always in the same story like, but nice that he has that range.
Those phonecalls in Arkham City are absolutely beautiful.
Had a crack at Bad Blood based on this thread and quite enjoyed it, speaking as someone who doesn't pay much attention to the actual comics at all. Are there plans for more films in that continuity?
Batwing is a bit of an oddity though, he seems to have a better suite of abilities thanks to the Totally Not Iron Man suit than Batman himself, does his addition not make the rest of the "family" a bit superfluous in most scenarios?
While we are gushing about BTAS-related stuff, let me just put a word in for Shirley Walker's soundtrack. Her work on the series is wondeful in general but her leit motifs for various characters are truly amazing. Some favorite examples:
Manchu wrote: While we are gushing about BTAS-related stuff, let me just put a word in for Shirley Walker's soundtrack. Her work on the series is wondeful in general but her leit motifs for various characters are truly amazing. Some favorite examples:
The chanting is apparantly the choirs names sung backwards, but it's still SOOOO effective. More Batman music needs chanting. And, of course, it still has the Danny Elfman elements too.
Apparently it's bad and wrong and bad 2.5 out of 5 because they only went out of their way to add a single female character with agency(up from the zero who were in the comic) to the story about Batman in Victorian London.
I'm starting to think maybe the Den of Geek review writers and I are looking for different things in our fiction. In that I'm looking for, you know, good fiction, and they seem to want an audio-visual checklist.
I'm very much looking forward to GbG, the art style looks fantastic and Bruce Greenwood is pretty much the Next Best Bat after Conroy. I'm awaiting a blu-ray copy though, so shall be avoiding reviews in the mean time. But to be honest, none of these are exactly 100% faithful recreations of comic book material, so telling good stories, looking slick and having quality voice work is always more important than whether this character did this thing or that panel was reproduced ect.
So long as it's not a travesty of an adaptation like the first crack at Death of Superman, it should be fine...
Yodhrin wrote:Apparently it's bad and wrong and bad 2.5 out of 5 because they only went out of their way to add a single female character with agency(up from the zero who were in the comic) to the story about Batman in Victorian London.
I'm starting to think maybe the Den of Geek review writers and I are looking for different things in our fiction. In that I'm looking for, you know, good fiction, and they seem to want an audio-visual checklist.
It's all about the pandering nowadays. That, and if you make yourself out to be a male feminist, it seems to help land chicks
Yodhrin wrote: Apparently it's bad and wrong and bad 2.5 out of 5 because they only went out of their way to add a single female character with agency(up from the zero who were in the comic) to the story about Batman in Victorian London.
I'm starting to think maybe the Den of Geek review writers and I are looking for different things in our fiction. In that I'm looking for, you know, good fiction, and they seem to want an audio-visual checklist.
Crowbaring in purse puppies for the sake of "diversity" automatically makes any type of media instantly and irredeemably bad.
It annoys me we can't criticize anything, lest we be tarred as bigots.
Just to make something clear - I have no issues with adding as much diversity as any given story will bear, I just think that they did that with GbG given its setting and that the DoG reviewer was being monumentally petty by giving it 2.5/5 based entirely - so far as the text of their review would suggest - on the fact they don't think it went far enough.
It's not that surprising Yod. Once read an AV Club review for an episode of Agent Carter that straight up said the episode was better than the rest because two black women wrote it. That was the single qualifier used to determine the episode's quality.
Anyway, as I had a big voucher, I just got Dark Knight Returns 1 & 2 plus The Flashpoint Paradox on DVD (no Blu-Ray available, as it happens). I'm quite happy with that. Those movies are great.
As is the Young Justice, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited shows. And, I think, Superman the Animated Series.
Several DC Animated films are on there as well, though it is somewhat random which ones are and aren't.
In the UK at least there's:
Superman/Batman Public Enemies
Wonder Woman
Justice League: The New Frontier
Superman Doomsday
Green Lantern First Flight
Gotham Knight (Anime compilation)
Plus the older animated films, Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Sub-Zero, Mystery of the Batwomen.
There are others, but they are the more specifically kids focused ones (Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Batman VS Dracula, Batman Monsters Unleashed, Batman Animal Instincts etc).
That's not to say they'll be bad (I've not watched them), but they're not typically what people talk about when they discuss the DC Animated Films.
And, of course, there's the Lego Batman straight-to-DVD films...
Originally I blamed Arrow for it, being a CW show and all that, it sorta seemed to be not an unexpected choice they'd make. But I think she has turned up thinner in other comics before then.
I'm currently trialing "Superman VS The Elite", followed by "All-star Superman" as my "so you think Superman is boring, out of date and sucks" counterargument.
Compel wrote: As is the Young Justice, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited shows. And, I think, Superman the Animated Series.
Several DC Animated films are on there as well, though it is somewhat random which ones are and aren't.
In the UK at least there's:
Superman/Batman Public Enemies
Wonder Woman
Justice League: The New Frontier
Superman Doomsday
Green Lantern First Flight
Gotham Knight (Anime compilation)
Plus the older animated films, Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Sub-Zero, Mystery of the Batwomen.
All of which I have on DVD, interestingly enough! Lol. Had a friend who worked at a DVD store and saved all of them for me when they came in used at a killer price (10 bucks a season for the BtAS and JL stuff). I think the ONLY DC animated I don't have a hard copy of at the moment is the Adam West Batman vs. Two Face that recently released.
Compel wrote: I'm currently trialing "Superman VS The Elite", followed by "All-star Superman" as my "so you think Superman is boring, out of date and sucks" counterargument.
Superman VS The Elite came off more like Superman VS The Strawmen, in my opinion. It made both sides look bad, but The Elite looked bad because they were created to job for Superman, while Superman looked bad because
Spoiler:
containing a mass murderer like Atomic Skull instead of killing them is only the more ethical solution if you are actually going to contain them.
The Joker problem is a consequence of long-running serialised fiction wanting to reuse their best villains, and not wanting to tone them down to the point where that would be tolerable in-universe. It's better not to draw attention to it.
Compel wrote: I'm currently trialing "Superman VS The Elite", followed by "All-star Superman" as my "so you think Superman is boring, out of date and sucks" counterargument.
Superman VS The Elite came off more like Superman VS The Strawmen, in my opinion. It made both sides look bad, but The Elite looked bad because they were created to job for Superman, while Superman looked bad because
Spoiler:
containing a mass murderer like Atomic Skull instead of killing them is only the more ethical solution if you are actually going to contain them.
The Joker problem is a consequence of long-running serialised fiction wanting to reuse their best villains, and not wanting to tone them down to the point where that would be tolerable in-universe. It's better not to draw attention to it.
I'm going to disagree, but not necessarily because I agree with the message of the movie (or the comic its based on).
Super Man vs The Elite was about juxtaposing idealistic super heroes like Superman against the anti-hero characters of the Dark Age, represented by The Elite. There is a valid point in the story; someone as powerful as Super Man going around and killing anyone he deems worthy of dying to protect the peace and justice of the world, is really twisted, messed up, and downright terrifying. An idealistic hero like Super Man is valuable and encouraging because he doesn't use his powers to do just what he wants but rather tries to reinforce the best aspects of human civilization.
The point of the original comic was to present Superman as still being relevant in a period when comics were getting darker and the heroes and villains along with them. It's failure is that it is ultimately an analysis of comics themselves, which are inherently silly when trying to propose solutions to real world problems. Walking mass murderer atomic weapons that answer to no one don't exist in the real world, nor do flying men immune to bullets and missiles. As a metaphor for the terrifying abuse of power that is "who watches the watchers" Superman vs The Elite works, but trying to take that message and apply it anywhere other than comics is going to give us nothing (for the reasons you give) but Superman vs the Elite wasn't commenting on the real world as much as it was commenting on the changing tone of comic books.
Compel wrote: I'm currently trialing "Superman VS The Elite", followed by "All-star Superman" as my "so you think Superman is boring, out of date and sucks" counterargument.
Superman VS The Elite came off more like Superman VS The Strawmen, in my opinion. It made both sides look bad, but The Elite looked bad because they were created to job for Superman, while Superman looked bad because
Spoiler:
containing a mass murderer like Atomic Skull instead of killing them is only the more ethical solution if you are actually going to contain them.
The Joker problem is a consequence of long-running serialised fiction wanting to reuse their best villains, and not wanting to tone them down to the point where that would be tolerable in-universe. It's better not to draw attention to it.
I'm going to disagree, but not necessarily because I agree with the message of the movie (or the comic its based on).
Super Man vs The Elite was about juxtaposing idealistic super heroes like Superman against the anti-hero characters of the Dark Age, represented by The Elite. There is a valid point in the story; someone as powerful as Super Man going around and killing anyone he deems worthy of dying to protect the peace and justice of the world, is really twisted, messed up, and downright terrifying. An idealistic hero like Super Man is valuable and encouraging because he doesn't use his powers to do just what he wants but rather tries to reinforce the best aspects of human civilization.
The point of the original comic was to present Superman as still being relevant in a period when comics were getting darker and the heroes and villains along with them. It's failure is that it is ultimately an analysis of comics themselves, which are inherently silly when trying to propose solutions to real world problems. Walking mass murderer atomic weapons that answer to no one don't exist in the real world, nor do flying men immune to bullets and missiles. As a metaphor for the terrifying abuse of power that is "who watches the watchers" Superman vs The Elite works, but trying to take that message and apply it anywhere other than comics is going to give us nothing (for the reasons you give) but Superman vs the Elite wasn't commenting on the real world as much as it was commenting on the changing tone of comic books.
Both the movie and the comic are worse versions of Kingdom Come. Which has the same general themes with a much better plot, way WAY (like unbelievably) better art, and a much better look at the consequences of these individuals running rampant vs the restraint people like Superman show and what it means.
Compel wrote: I'm currently trialing "Superman VS The Elite", followed by "All-star Superman" as my "so you think Superman is boring, out of date and sucks" counterargument.
Superman VS The Elite came off more like Superman VS The Strawmen, in my opinion. It made both sides look bad, but The Elite looked bad because they were created to job for Superman, while Superman looked bad because
Spoiler:
containing a mass murderer like Atomic Skull instead of killing them is only the more ethical solution if you are actually going to contain them.
The Joker problem is a consequence of long-running serialised fiction wanting to reuse their best villains, and not wanting to tone them down to the point where that would be tolerable in-universe. It's better not to draw attention to it.
It also said some not very nice things about fandom, which is always funny in a comic book movie.
Really? I always find it weird when fans appreciate being slagged off by the products they pay for. I mean, nobody should expect these shows and the people who make them to lick your feet or anything, but the snotty, petulant, beret-wearing artiste sentiment that often underlies "commentary on fandom" from creatives isn't appealing IMO.
Yodhrin wrote: Really? I always find it weird when fans appreciate being slagged off by the products they pay for. I mean, nobody should expect these shows and the people who make them to lick your feet or anything, but the snotty, petulant, beret-wearing artiste sentiment that often underlies "commentary on fandom" from creatives isn't appealing IMO.
Roughly 2 weeks age, Kate Welch was announced as a new member to the Dungeons & Dragons team. She was pretty much immediately harassed by various vocal aspects of the D&D fandom for being unsuitable and unqualified. Something no male team members seems to have suffered.
Yodhrin wrote: Really? I always find it weird when fans appreciate being slagged off by the products they pay for. I mean, nobody should expect these shows and the people who make them to lick your feet or anything, but the snotty, petulant, beret-wearing artiste sentiment that often underlies "commentary on fandom" from creatives isn't appealing IMO.
Roughly 2 weeks age, Kate Welch was announced as a new member to the Dungeons & Dragons team. She was pretty much immediately harassed by various vocal aspects of the D&D fandom for being unsuitable and unqualified. Something no male team members seems to have suffered.
Sometimes fandom deserves a kick in the butt.
Agreed.
It's great when you like a thing. It's also great when you appreciate the people who make the thing. But actual fandom is more like fanaticism. It's often toxic and it's often the worst. Look at the Fandom of Rick and Morty. Harassing a bunch of teenagers who work at McDonalds because a sauce that hasn't existed for 20 years wasn't available. Fandom is the worst.
Yodhrin wrote: Really? I always find it weird when fans appreciate being slagged off by the products they pay for. I mean, nobody should expect these shows and the people who make them to lick your feet or anything, but the snotty, petulant, beret-wearing artiste sentiment that often underlies "commentary on fandom" from creatives isn't appealing IMO.
Roughly 2 weeks age, Kate Welch was announced as a new member to the Dungeons & Dragons team. She was pretty much immediately harassed by various vocal aspects of the D&D fandom for being unsuitable and unqualified. Something no male team members seems to have suffered.
Sometimes fandom deserves a kick in the butt.
Then confront that behaviour directly, rather than putting snide asides that often tar a huge chunk of people who did no such thing with the same brush as your supposed targets into the products people are paying for.
timetowaste85 wrote: Anyone watch Batman: Gotham by Gaslight? Victorian style Batman vs Jack the Ripper? Digital release yesterday, I’m waiting for a hard copy.
I just finished watching Gotham By Gaslight.
It's... ok. Certainly better than Batman and Harley Quinn.
I kind of feel it falls apart by the end though, though that might just be me.
I just read the wikipedia article and it basically takes elements from both the original book and its sequel but aside from some set pieces and the fact it's "Batman VS Jack The Ripper" it's essentially a new story.
So yeah, overall, it's... ok. I certainly wouldn't describe purchasing it as money well spent but now that I have it, I'm not going to get rid of it.
Oh, and the bonus episodes, they were super lazy with, of the two episodes they have in it. One, is a repeat of an episode in "Justice League Dark" and the other is a repeat from "Son of Batman."
So, meh... Fingers crossed for the new Suicide Squad animated movie.
This is why I largely no longer consider myself a "fan" in the traditional sense for anything. To me being a fan just means I like it, but the "fandom" that surrounds things often has so much disgusting bile swirling in with all the fun that I can't consider myself a part of it.
I don't know. Fanatical fan seems oxymoronic, and if we distinguish between generic casual fandom of interest in a subject and learning a fictional language so you can have full conversations in Klingon the later seems pretty fanatical
LordofHats wrote: I don't know. Fanatical fan seems oxymoronic, and if we distinguish between generic casual fandom of interest in a subject and learning a fictional language so you can have full conversations in Klingon the later seems pretty fanatical
Yep and that's the wonder of the English language it's bloody insane.
Those Klingon speakers would definitely be fanatical fans
LordofHats wrote: I don't know. Fanatical fan seems oxymoronic, and if we distinguish between generic casual fandom of interest in a subject and learning a fictional language so you can have full conversations in Klingon the later seems pretty fanatical
Yep and that's the wonder of the English language it's bloody insane.
Those Klingon speakers would definitely be fanatical fans
Yeah. So who would you call a member of the Fandom? The guy who watched the tv show/movies? Or the ones who dress up in costumes and learn languages?
On the subject, il be watching gotham by gaslight tonight. Excited.
No one is talking about people who watch and enjoy Star Trek when talking about Trekies. They're talking about people who really, really, watch and enjoy Star Trek. It's kind of this weird thing where saying "I'm a fan of ______" means you enjoy it, but when other people talk about "_____ fans" they're not really talking about people with general interest but the kind of people who make kick ass costumes and are maybe at times a bit too committed.
Watched Justice League Dark the other night. Nice to have Matt Ryan as Constantine, and the final fight was pretty cool, but otherwise it was very short and had to cram a lot of stuff in there to make us understand it all.
Plus Batman was there to stand around and sell copies.
I dunno, Batman has some great stuff in JLD. Particularly
Spoiler:
the first scene with Orchid.
'How do you deal with so much darkness inside you?'
'I have a butler.'
To be fair though, I really like Jason O'Mara's Batman in pretty much all the stuff he's been in, he does that deadpan humour so well (though obviously not quite as well as Conroy, but that's a given).
I see your point about these films being a little short though, that's a common issue and I'd happily still watch them at 90 minutes a piece rather than 75. The Judas Contract ran to 85 and was certainly able to flesh things out a little more.
I think Gotham By Gaslight is the best batman movie to date. It was real dark. There was a good mystery. He was a detective. Didn't use guns, didn't kill, didn't drink.
By the last 1/2 of the movie me and my friend were trying to figure out who the killer was ourselves.
They have, but it's a pretty dreadful adaptation. A new take on such an iconic story is most welcome, I think. This could be to Superman what the two-part The Dark Knight Returns movie is to Batman.
Most of death of superman is so bogged down in characters and events over the previous couple years that that comic is confusing as feth to most people.
It has cloned australian kid lex luther with his amazing mop of red hair.
And white goop supergirl.
I dont think death of superman is iconic anything. I guess it has an iconic cover. And black suit mullet superman when he eventually came back was pretty good.
I never really looked at comics during the original series. - All I really had back then was The Beano and Oor Wullie.
But from watching various shows about it, it seems to me that the problem was never really about the death of Superman. It was about all the stuff that came after it. The shenanigans with a bajillion clones, the Eradicator and so on.
If they simplify the Rebirth *right* down, it could be doable (to be honest I liked the Justice League movies approach to that). - Though I'm guessing that's another 2 years away anyway, it looks like this film is literally just about the death.
In other news, apparently the new Suicide Squad animated movie is really good, but with the big problematic issue being that DC didn't bother to credit or involve Gail Simone, who wrote the original story the movie is based on...
I feel like before you make a good "Death of" movie, you really need to make a good.... "Life Of..." movie. I really liked Superman vs. the Elite; but I can not think of another really compelling Superman (animated) film.
Unbound is really good, based on the excellent Superman: Braniac by Geoff Johns. Superman/Batman: Public Enemies has some great Superman stuff, and of course there's JL:TAS which has tons of good Superman stories.
I don't think so. Doomsday is a bad guys everyone knows and nobody really likes who exists solely for the purpose of punching the gak out of superman. Nobody else can remember anything else from that story. Can anyone think of a single iconic image from that comic besides the ripped cape in the pile of rubble or louis holding dead superman?
It's a lot like Death in the Family for Batman except THAT comic at least has the super memorable bit where joker beats him with a crowbar and then blows up the building. But does anyone remember that most of the story is about Joker selling WMDs to terrorists in the middle east? Or even that Joker lured Jason Todd into the warehouse to do that by making him think his mother was alive and captured? Nope! Because in every adaptation since the original comic they cut out 90% of it because it's utter nonsense.
Except Death of Superman isn't 90% nonsense. it's 100% nonsense besides a single panel and a cover image. It's some of the WORST excesses of 90s comics.
I'm not sure the imagery of the Death of Superman being the main iconic thing in the comic called "The Death of Superman" is a strong a criticism as you think...
Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely certain all the stuff afterwards is as terrible as I've heard (it was certainly true of Knightfall) . But they're not dealing with that in this movie (and I have reservations how they deal with that in the next 2 parts of the trilogy they mentioned in the video).
But to be honest, the concepts of the movie shown in that video seem sound to me.
As a sidenote, Death In The Family, who could forget the segment of Joker in the UK and how he got there?
Compel wrote: I'm not sure the imagery of the Death of Superman being the main iconic thing in the comic called "The Death of Superman" is a strong a criticism as you think...
Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely certain all the stuff afterwards is as terrible as I've heard (it was certainly true of Knightfall) . But they're not dealing with that in this movie (and I have reservations how they deal with that in the next 2 parts of the trilogy they mentioned in the video).
But to be honest, the concepts of the movie shown in that video seem sound to me.
As a sidenote, Death In The Family, who could forget the segment of Joker in the UK and how he got there?
I'm not talking about the Reign of the Supermen. I am talking about the actual story of Death of Superman. The ACTUAL Death of Superman story is 100% nonsense. There are zero iconic moments in it. The main bits about people finding doomsday in his green onesy underground and him going bezerk and all that is a very small part of the DoS story. There is a LOT in that comic and it's all very confusing and requires you to know a lot of crap that was going on in the DC universe for the couple years leading up to it.
It's like how the animated movie changed Under the Red Hood to be "Jason Todd is alive again because Ras Al'gule used a lazarus pit" instead of "superboy prime punched reality". One of those has become central to a really good story. The original comic story is founded on total fething bs that people still make fun of. But at least everything AFTER superboy prime punched reality is pretty iconic and good so they had a strong basis to build the movie around.
But again, DoS has no big moments. No iconic lines. No interesting villain. Nobodys pulling the strings. It's, from page 1 to page last, a really bad book. Supergirl is a white goop monster who gets punched into white goop because this was back when they had a hard line rule that superman was the only kryptonian. Asutralian Lex Luther is running about being all weird. There is a lot of really just... awful 90s comics stuff in that story. Including Doomsday himself. Just... what a terrible bad guy. No personality. No motivation. It's just a Hulk who 90's eXtreme so he's like Hulk to the MAX! But THIS time without the personality or dilemma! Reign of the supermen is actually MORE interesting because of people like Steel and Cyborg Superman (the red and blue lighting supermen less so) who do cool stuff. DoS was garbage and is garbage.
You can say that until your blue in the face. You'll never be right about it though.
A large part of the sales from Superman (vol. 2) #75 were from non-fans who wanted the issue as a collectible investment. Due to the massive number of books printed (except for the platinum editions), it is unlikely to ever be valuable. Retailer and columnist Chuck Rozanski cites the sales of this book as an example of the speculator boom of the 1990s, which ended in the bust of the speculator market.[16]
Death of superman was right in the middle of the 90s mass collectors market with varient covers, foil covers, and collectable #1s that are all basically worthless now because everyone bought 2 copies. 1 to read and 1 to seal in cardboard backed plastic. Yes, it sold like mad. But, its not unreasonable to think that 1/2 of all sales were just colectors copies either a second copy for the reader or non readers who just thought this would make a nice nest egg.
timetowaste85 wrote: New Suicide Squad cartoon is out digitally. Anyone see it? How is it?
i found it to be a solid and entertaining movie-the story is basically everyone after the special extra shiny thingamajig that everyone and their cousin wants
you'll probably want to have seen assault on arkham and flash paradox before it though
Continues to ramp up the levels of graphic violence and gore in the DC animated universe. They will kill anyone and everyone, they don’t care who you are, they’ll even kill you twice.
Sweet. More violent with the R rating actually being DESERVED for once is nice. And I have both AoAA and FP (which is currently my second favorite after B:UtRH). Sounds like I should be jonesing for Tuesday!
Gonna do some very, very mild threadomancy and give this thread a bump up the pile - that's instead of kicking off a very similar topic.
So, generally DC get (what I consider rightful) praise for their aminated efforts - but of course struggle with their live action fare.
Whilst none have been flops exactly, pretty much all have underperformed at the box office, leading to various changes of direction which stops it all feeling cohesive.
And I'm wondering.....what if they just drew a line under the live action stuff, and instead produced animated films for the cinema? They'll cost less, can arguably do more, and the amination department most certainly seems to know what its doing - including what the fans want to see.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Gonna do some very, very mild threadomancy and give this thread a bump up the pile - that's instead of kicking off a very similar topic.
So, generally DC get (what I consider rightful) praise for their aminated efforts - but of course struggle with their live action fare.
Whilst none have been flops exactly, pretty much all have underperformed at the box office, leading to various changes of direction which stops it all feeling cohesive.
And I'm wondering.....what if they just drew a line under the live action stuff, and instead produced animated films for the cinema? They'll cost less, can arguably do more, and the amination department most certainly seems to know what its doing - including what the fans want to see.
The DC Animated films have a big of a chequered history too.
A lot of the The New 52 based ones, which they've been doing for the past 7 years haven't been exactly great.
Batman and Harley Quinn was completely lambasted as being the skeeviest, creepiest product DC has made in who knows how long.
However, Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay has been pretty well received (and finally turned up in the UK today). I was watching it tonight and yeah, it's pretty good. It still feels super awkward with the whole "Gail Simone" thing though. (Essentially they lifted one of her plotlines for the Secret Six, transplanted it into Suicide Squad and didn't tell her or mention it to her, or give her any sort of credit, as I understand it).
But yeah, it felt pretty good but it kinda felt like they went a bit too overly murder happy in it...
It was a bit like the writers of the movie were taking the easy way out. "Oh, character X's part of the film is over, just kill 'em."
They’ve been super murder happy for awhile now with the animated stuff. The last Batman that I recall had every single villain die off, like half a dozen named dudes. Mad Hatter’s head Exploded. It’s really getting super cliche.
Also I quite liked the Batman and Harley one. It was very risqué with its humor, but it was also just fun. A nice departure from that recent everyone must die Theme.
Wait, what was skeevy about BaHQ other than HQ’s bondage scene with Nightwing? And the restaurant basically poking fun at fanboys for crushing on Wonder Woman and others? Neither was really THAT bad.
The brain splattering and child-murder in Flashpoint should have raised more hackles. And that was a few years ago.
That bedroom scene was pretty much the only scene I really saw talked about on social media, and generally all negative. I didn’t think it was that bad myself.
He’s marrying Catwoman? Also, with the exception of the Michelle P. version, she’s never even been slightly crazy. Has she EVER even once ended up in Arkham, excluding B&E?
Watched the new Ninja Batman animated movie. Fun and entertaining overall. Some good fight scenes. A really stupid third act. Like, really stupid, and it kept getting stupider. Ends with a couple more solid fights though.
They do HORRIBLY mischaracterize Damian. Like, I’m not actually sure he Was Damian, but I don’t know who else he’d be since they also had Nightwing, Red Hood, and Red Robin, and I don’t recall any fifth Robin he might have supposed to have been.
AduroT wrote: Watched the new Ninja Batman animated movie. Fun and entertaining overall. Some good fight scenes. A really stupid third act. Like, really stupid, and it kept getting stupider. Ends with a couple more solid fights though.
They do HORRIBLY mischaracterize Damian. Like, I’m not actually sure he Was Damian, but I don’t know who else he’d be since they also had Nightwing, Red Hood, and Red Robin, and I don’t recall any fifth Robin he might have supposed to have been.
My god, I almost gave up watching the movie at the third act, glad I stuck around though.
Spoiler:
I was really excited to watch batman storm Japanese fortresses with an army of ninjas and really use the history of Japan to set up a cool set piece. Instead the movie was a parody on anime tropes and we got mechs and kaiju. Stupid mechs and kaiju.
Joker was fun though, someone really went all out to animate him.
Thought I'd bring this one back up as Death of Superman just came out (in the UK at least, not sure if it came out earlier in the US like some of the others have)
Honestly, it's excellent. Crucially, it avoids one of the pitfalls of the previous attempt making the whole film about the title fight, and takes its time to actually set the stakes and build the tension before an explosive finale that has an incredible brutality and intensity to it. It also does a good job of making the supporting cast actually worthwhile in their own right without overshadowing Superman himself, and one of the best scenes in the film is Doomsday going through the League before Superman's even on the scene, with all of them getting to have a cool moment at some point.
Lots of exciting setup for the sequel as well, it seems like it might be going some interesting directions.
Spoiler:
With Doomsday's meteor arriving via Boom Tube, Lex suggesting he's simply the first wave of an invasion and a post-credits Cyborg Superman that looks distinctly Apokaltic, I'd not be surprised to see Darkseid emerge as the big bad of the Reign of the Supermen, acting as a foil for the impostors/Superman-less League until Supes returns to kick his arse.
Well worth a watch.
On an unrelated note, the animated Constantine series the CW made is getting a full release later in the year, filled out to a full 90 minutes with some new material. Looking forward to that, Matt Ryan as Constantine is always good.
Death of Superman is definitely excellent, though I do feel they gave Green Lantern and Wonder Woman a bit of a short change though.
Spoiler:
I think they could have avoided 'breaking' Hal's constructs and instead going around them in some fashion. - Doomsday VS Martian Manhunter was a good fight, you get the sense that J'onn was defeated because of his weakness, while still being powerful. - The classic breaking Hal's arm is a good one to beat Hal.
Diana, I dunno, I think having her pulled away for some reason might have been better. - An emergency elsewhere, perhaps, with her 'tagging in' Superman once he arrives. Or, something like it's Olympus pulling her away.
Compel wrote: Death of Superman is definitely excellent, though I do feel they gave Green Lantern and Wonder Woman a bit of a short change though.
Spoiler:
I think they could have avoided 'breaking' Hal's constructs and instead going around them in some fashion. - Doomsday VS Martian Manhunter was a good fight, you get the sense that J'onn was defeated because of his weakness, while still being powerful. - The classic breaking Hal's arm is a good one to beat Hal.
Diana, I dunno, I think having her pulled away for some reason might have been better. - An emergency elsewhere, perhaps, with her 'tagging in' Superman once he arrives. Or, something like it's Olympus pulling her away.
Spoiler:
The thing is, as skilled and experienced as Diana is, in a straight up slugging match she shouldn't be able to hold Doomsday for much longer than she did. Even as a better fighter, she can't compete with the sheer brute force. Same with Cyborg or GL's tech, Aquaman and Hawkman's magic weaponry, the full array of Manhunter's abilities, and of course Batman's smarts.
I think that sequence does a treat job of proving that the only person who can win is someone who can hit back just as hard, and that Superman is the only one capable of doing that. In this continuity we've seen the League take down Darkseid, so having Doomsday stomp them flat is an effective, if unsubtle, way of illustrating his sheer power.
I don't think Death of Superman works as a story if anyone else has a chance of matching Doomsday. It's ultimately a tribute to how he's the only one, physically and mentally, who can win this fight, even at such a high cost. I don't always like Superman shown as above and beyond the rest of the League, but for this story I think he has to be depicted that way.
My main issue in the film is Luthor's suit... So many cool designs over the years to draw from, and they go with something looking like a weaponised TV...
Yeah, this came out a month ago iirc in the US. Quite enjoyed it and rather liked that we got to see an R rated Doomsday get to do what a Doomsday should do.
Spoiler:
It’s just some random monster, you go do your thing, we’ll take care of it.
We’ve been here five minutes and three Justice Leaguers are down! Send more Justice Leaguers!
I do wonder if the whole Justice League minus Superman going in at once could have taken him. They kind of came at him piecemeal just like two at a time.
