The posing on that top model is all kinds of awful. It's like the top half is falling backwards and shooting while her bottom half is leaning or sliding forward on the skulls. Ditch the skull pile and give her a solid stance on the ground and the top half would work. Bottom one has the standard "I'M STANDING ON A ROCK!" that does nothing for me. Details on both are otherwise decent enough.
I like most of the models above especially Agnes and Ilden. The pose and to a lesser extent the sculpting choices on Gurten (the fat female commissar falling off of a pile a rocks) are not up to par with the rest though. YMMV.
With respect, I would not lead with Lena, it is in my opinion the worst model you are presenting. All the other ones are pretty good, Lena just doesn't look right to me in the slightest... belly is weird and doesn't make much sense in anatomy or the folds of the cloth, the head is tiny and the overall body does not reflect any connection to the girth of the belly. Pose is a bit confused as well, the lower body has little relation to the position of the upper body, the momentum and weighting are unclear.
All the other models look pretty great, some of the faces in particular and the general anatomy look really nice. Lena looks like it is from a different company almost... Sorry to post a critical (and complimentary though!) response so soon in your thread but honestly I am saying it trying to help. Good luck!
Some good stuff here, but I will heavily agree...Gurten is well below any of the other sculpts. I would lead with something else by far.
Brave too, tackling the "not enough female miniatures" folks with fat and unattractive female options (which is completely fair as well). Good luck. I like the female farseer.
Minis are nice. Is this 25mm or 32mm scale like 40K/Age of Sigmar minis? Also is this an all female line? Last question, is this your own universe or supposed to be used for 40K?
Way too much 40K vibe to be seeing this in your own universe, that is all I am asking. Nothing wrong with it, since I love the different take if it is a vibe of 40K. Except for the cornel that was mentioned, I am liking the aesthetics where this is going.
Would I buy? Not sure. I am not much of an online shopper almost always buy from Friendly Local Gaming store. So I guess it depends on price and shipping in the end if I do buy. Hope that is good constructive criticism there.
Aesthete wrote: Looking interesting. Happy to see a few non-skinny female figures as well
I'll follow your work with interest.
Thx, yes were possible I will try to do something more original or different from the other. Got several other models and projects in mind, but got to start somewhere
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Elbows wrote: Some good stuff here, but I will heavily agree...Gurten is well below any of the other sculpts. I would lead with something else by far.
Brave too, tackling the "not enough female miniatures" folks with fat and unattractive female options (which is completely fair as well). Good luck. I like the female farseer.
Got it I still love her. Original pose was static, the sculptor just went haywire and did this pose, once printed it doesn't look bad at all on the table. She is out to be painted hopefully I may change someones idea with the actual model.
This was the original concept:
It all depends on how the KS goes I have other models coming, and static Gurten may be there
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Davor wrote: Minis are nice. Is this 25mm or 32mm scale like 40K/Age of Sigmar minis? Also is this an all female line? Last question, is this your own universe or supposed to be used for 40K?
Way too much 40K vibe to be seeing this in your own universe, that is all I am asking. Nothing wrong with it, since I love the different take if it is a vibe of 40K. Except for the cornel that was mentioned, I am liking the aesthetics where this is going.
Would I buy? Not sure. I am not much of an online shopper almost always buy from Friendly Local Gaming store. So I guess it depends on price and shipping in the end if I do buy. Hope that is good constructive criticism there.
They are 32mm and officialy is their own universe
I will be running a KS to fund the initial production, got tons of models in mind that I will love to make in time, but need to start small to grow.
Worked 20 years making minis and now I want to make my own range.
I have to say, I'm very much a fan of the Inquisitor and Vasiliev - fantastic work, and not overdone like most female models.
The one piece of criticism I can offer is one of personal taste I guess. I can never fathom the reason for the 'exposed' cleavage - as if they're wearing an evening dress. Since the rest of the models are fairly sensible, it seems odd that this one area, on a number of your designs, is left open. In the case of Vasilev - she's wearing a fur coat and hat - but chooses to keep that area exposed to biting frost. In the case of the Inquisitor, she's fully armoured - but leaves her chest completely open to being stabbed or shot.
Aside from that particular design choice - I can't fault them. Nice aesthetics, not overdone and well detailed without being fussy.
The static Lena art looks much better. If you want an action pose, maybe have her lunging forward instead of falling backwards? Agnes is my favorite so far.
How much will each mini cost and what material will you cast them in?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and please complete her chest armor.
Warpig1815 wrote: I have to say, I'm very much a fan of the Inquisitor and Vasiliev - fantastic work, and not overdone like most female models.
The one piece of criticism I can offer is one of personal taste I guess. I can never fathom the reason for the 'exposed' cleavage - as if they're wearing an evening dress. Since the rest of the models are fairly sensible, it seems odd that this one area, on a number of your designs, is left open. In the case of Vasilev - she's wearing a fur coat and hat - but chooses to keep that area exposed to biting frost. In the case of the Inquisitor, she's fully armoured - but leaves her chest completely open to being stabbed or shot.
Aside from that particular design choice - I can't fault them. Nice aesthetics, not overdone and well detailed without being fussy.
Any critique is more than welcome I can only improve from them if they are constructive like yours. I started with static models, I had to get the correct proportions first. What you see as a 3D model is not what you get delivered.
Then many objected that they were a bit to static, and I realized they were correct, so started looking at more dynamic poses. Gurten was my sculptor first approach and we looked for something never seen before
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: The static Lena art looks much better. If you want an action pose, maybe have her lunging forward instead of falling backwards? Agnes is my favorite so far.
How much will each mini cost and what material will you cast them in?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and please complete her chest armor.
You can look at the KS page while I am updating it. Doing my best not being a pro but currently based on a minimum goal with an EB of 60$ you may get 12 models of the ones unlocked. That will be about 52% off retail.
While the designs and actual models are good, the poses really let them down. The only ones who aren't just standing doing nothing are the ones afflicted with that old curse of "one foot on a rock/skull/etc", which is never good.
The proportions on Cataryna are way off - wide shoulders and thick arms with very thin midriff, hips and legs. Contrast with Viktoria, who is consistently proportioned.
Also, the coat on Lena is just bad. Coats don't show off rolls of fat, they conceal them, especially if she's wearing chest armor beneath the coat. She should just be barrel chested with all the fat and armor under the coat.
Wouldn't it be either "Lady of Decay" or "Matron of Decay"?
And while I don't have any issue with differing body morphology, Lena's Greatcoat just does not fall naturally. The cinch at the waist (belt?) just looks odd.
One less obvious little problem with Lena is that it looks like her cigar has been modeled over the shape of her lips, rather than having her lips around it.
Some nice models, but, yeah, Lena has some problems w/ pose/detail.
Re: the greatcoat, I believe it's because they're using the greatcoat belt like a regular belt. In my experience, no one would tighten a coat's belt that tight: they're designed to hold your coat closed, not to be so tight as to be form-fitting, like that.
Echoing the others, I almost closed the page after seeing Lena. The model that I am most interested in is Agnes, but the bustier with the skulls is a bit off-putting.
Anyhow, the cornerstone of product management is to make products that people actually want. Singleton characters are cool, but without troops, most of the hardcore whales aren't going to shell out. So definitely consider that. I definitely would also consider moving aggressively in the areas where GW is falling short. Resin Sisters, Arbites, exotic Guardsmen, and Squats equivalents in addition to the usual space elves and space marines. Competitive players are also going to want to kitbash to get that 50% GW threshold, so making the troop models 28mm scale and compatible with Skitarii, Guardsmen, or Space Marine parts would make them super appealing. Outfits like Anvil have pretty much made an entire business out of this.
but you can sell characters at a price that is reasonable compared to a major manufacturers prices (eg GW) so people may buy them
but selling unit models for a price that isn't more than major maufacturers prices in a box set is a lot trickier and a lot of folk are price driven especially for rank and file
I love these designs and would greatly enjoy picking several of these up.
I do, however agree with several others - I like the more static pose for Lena than the current 3D model. Perhaps with a (single) skull under one foot. Also would be great option if the (left) arm could be replaced with a gauntlet, giving a more commanding pose as if giving orders rather than leaping into the fray.
Will this miniatures be available after the KS? Unfortunately, I had a poor experience with KS and won't participate in KS's any more, but am more than willing to buy them direct/retail once produced.
A ton of great feedback and constructive critiques. Thanks
@Stormnu - I understand you got burned once also for over 500$. This is why I am going slow and keeping the KS small to make sure to deliver high quality and in time. I ran several other KS as a collaborator or co-owner and all got delivered. I admit a few delayed several months cause we had some unexpected issues. This is why I am not basing the whole KS on concepts and 3d models, but I am getting them printed and painted were possible.
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Stormonu wrote: I love these designs and would greatly enjoy picking several of these up.
I do, however agree with several others - I like the more static pose for Lena than the current 3D model. Perhaps with a (single) skull under one foot. Also would be great option if the (left) arm could be replaced with a gauntlet, giving a more commanding pose as if giving orders rather than leaping into the fray.
Will this miniatures be available after the KS? Unfortunately, I had a poor experience with KS and won't participate in KS's any more, but am more than willing to buy them direct/retail once produced.
And just got another painted example of an actual model to prove that I wasn't kidding
But with the EB for 10 models if unlocked you will get 12 models for 60$ that is over 50% off retail and 5$ a piece. I believe for characters is not bad at all.
And again if too pricey or you find something that can be improved I am open to suggestions...
But with the EB for 10 models if unlocked you will get 12 models for 60$ that is over 50% off retail and 5$ a piece. I believe for characters is not bad at all.
And again if too pricey or you find something that can be improved I am open to suggestions...
Price seems fine - will you have a EU partner cos Shipping can be an issue
The round the miniatures picture confirm the utter fail.
i don't mind the idea of a fat female miniature. In fact its a breath of fresh air from the supermodels and porno-plate so often seen. Plus size girls can get guns too.
The pose however needs to be completely reworked. And skulls, really? Keep the skulls separate, if people want to put minis on skullpiles GW has the Skulls pack to help out.
I think the original artwork for Gurten worked, being a fat female commissar is her point of uniqueness. I would give her arm variants frankly. An alt-right arm with sword and an alt-left arm with codex.
Also what do the large umbilical cables do? they don't power a power fist, and they don't power the gun. I would rethink them separate arms could have the cables as warranted, thus making the cabled guns powered energy weapons, and possibly including a power fist arm variant.
Sheck2 wrote: Interesting, but the poses. They are meh...and too many pointy extending parts.
Yes I agree first models were a bit static, we are trying to improve them. This is why this post was setup, as it is giving me so many useful information.
Each model we are making we are improving.
Definite improvement - most notably, the clothing now makes sense!
I think I preferred the more neutral facial expression of the first model, but that really is personal preference/nit-picking. That aside - keep up the good work!
I'm having a hard time figuring out what's going on. What's she supposed to be wearing? Does that power armor top have nipple rivets? Is there a saw on the back of the cannon?
The half naked models are a bit over the top and not anything I would be interested in, I am however a fan of Ragnarok, she is well armored and bad ass.
I'm enjoying these designs, but some of the posing hurts the models. The big commissar really needs to be study and planted like she is in her concept art. The art would make her good as a commissar, a colonel, or even a hive gang boss.
Ragnarok's legs and the twist of her legs to her body make her look like she's doing ballet with one half, and wanting to murder with the other half.
Which works if you want to do something elegant and deadly, but fangs and chain-axes doesn't scream "elegant" to me.
Victoria's ushanka is sitting much too high on her head. It needs to come down to her eyebrows if not the top of her eyes. Ushanka front flaps usually have more rounded top corners, but your square corners could be a style choice.
HeresyLab wrote: Just got the revised Victoria Vasilev 2.0
Hope we are improving....
They are at least in some form of partnership as the kickstarter is offering to have the minis be painted by BTP.
As for what is wrong with BTP just whack blue table painting controversy into google and have a read. The short of it is though they have behaved dishonestly and unethically in their treatment of members of the community.
Ouch I wasn't aware of BTP issues, I used them many years ago for some of my units, good service and results were as expected.
I have nothing to partner with them to be honest apart of having them paint one of my models.
I have contacted several painters to get my models done before the KS, I just wanted to give my backers an option to have them painted.
I asked pretty much all of the ones I used if they were interested in offering a deal, and BTP was kind enough to offer such service not only to his clients but to the backers of this KS.
I gave them my word on this offer and I will maintain it, is up to the customer to use them or not, I was trying to add some value to the KS.
For my .02, I like the commissar's pose. She's hurling herself backwards while John Woo'ing it into the approaching foe. I do think the pose would be served better if her back foot were off the ground, in mid backpedal, but overall I like the concept.
You've got a lot of boobplate, but mostly it's not excessive and they're otherwise appropriately armored so I can dig it. I mean, yeah, "not Slaanesh Noise Marine" is in a bikini, but Slaanesh, right? I would like to see an alt head for her with some wicked sonic themes to it, though, and I'd love to see some more angles on her blaster now that you're offering it separately.
HeresyLab wrote: Ouch I wasn't aware of BTP issues, I used them many years ago for some of my units, good service and results were as expected.
I have nothing to partner with them to be honest apart of having them paint one of my models.
I have contacted several painters to get my models done before the KS, I just wanted to give my backers an option to have them painted.
I asked pretty much all of the ones I used if they were interested in offering a deal, and BTP was kind enough to offer such service not only to his clients but to the backers of this KS.
I gave them my word on this offer and I will maintain it, is up to the customer to use them or not, I was trying to add some value to the KS.
I will pay more attention next KS.
I just hope that it doesn't lead to any problems for your customers or yourselves. Still best of luck and I hope to pick some models up when they hit retail.
HeresyLab wrote: Ouch I wasn't aware of BTP issues, I used them many years ago for some of my units, good service and results were as expected.
I have nothing to partner with them to be honest apart of having them paint one of my models.
I have contacted several painters to get my models done before the KS, I just wanted to give my backers an option to have them painted.
I asked pretty much all of the ones I used if they were interested in offering a deal, and BTP was kind enough to offer such service not only to his clients but to the backers of this KS.
I gave them my word on this offer and I will maintain it, is up to the customer to use them or not, I was trying to add some value to the KS.
Please consider having another pre order option outside of KS at the conclusion of the campaign. All of my problem projects are first time creators so unfortunately I can no longer back first timers through that platform after seeing their version of accountability in action.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Please consider having another pre order option outside of KS at the conclusion of the campaign. All of my problem projects are first time creators so unfortunately I can no longer back first timers through that platform after seeing their version of accountability in action.
I already do. On my site heresylab.com there is a store item priced $1.00 that will grant you access to the pledge manager later
ingtaer wrote: They are at least in some form of partnership as the kickstarter is offering to have the minis be painted by BTP.
As for what is wrong with BTP just whack blue table painting controversy into google and have a read. The short of it is though they have behaved dishonestly and unethically in their treatment of members of the community.
omg, I never heard of this, just went and found the video of the models...Imagine my surprise when I found out that I am a professional grade painter! I used to paint people's armies if they'd let me play them for campaigns, back in the day, and I'd have been embarrassed do the work BTP was doing for free. Wowza.
Just got so busy with the KS and forgot to post updates here. Didn't expect such a fast growth. Over 1200% the first week and funded in 24 minutes... hard to keep up.
Liking the minis quite a lot - probably will back. Consider beefing up Cataryna though - that narrow waist is pretty extreme given she is wearing power armor - otherwise really like her face etc.
Which is good timing, I got my models from the first KS a few days ago - they are beautiful - I can't wait to get them painted up.
I think there was a bit of a delay with getting the models out, a PC breaking down and a delay form the supplier I think - but I think it was worth the wait in the end.
There was also a mixup with some options that were just STL files. They were labelled as such, I just completely missed it. It was pretty much my own fault, but HL have been very responsive so far to reaching a suitable arrangement.
All in all - would definitely back again. There were some teething problems sure, but I believe how you react to those problems is what matters.
I also selected the STL files instead of minis. I don't think they were as clearly labeled as Heresylab claims, because I remember trying to figure out what the catch was with the different price, worried it meant they were metal.
Which is good timing, I got my models from the first KS a few days ago - they are beautiful - I can't wait to get them painted up.
I think there was a bit of a delay with getting the models out, a PC breaking down and a delay form the supplier I think - but I think it was worth the wait in the end.
There was also a mixup with some options that were just STL files. They were labelled as such, I just completely missed it. It was pretty much my own fault, but HL have been very responsive so far to reaching a suitable arrangement.
All in all - would definitely back again. There were some teething problems sure, but I believe how you react to those problems is what matters.
THX
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I also selected the STL files instead of minis. I don't think they were as clearly labeled as Heresylab claims, because I remember trying to figure out what the catch was with the different price, worried it meant they were metal.
Either way, the minis that arrived look good.
BobtheInquisitor - I agree maybe not so clear - marked all files as STL and File Only for several in the title and for all in the description. But I am fixing them all as fast as I can. I will pay much more attention next KS.
Again thanks for the support and hope you like the product you received.
I mostly avoid resin, unless I know a particular manufacturer has the good stuff. For example, Prodos, Hawk Wargames and Paulson all have resin that is ideal for me. Scibor and their ilk have much rougher resin quality that requires washing and much scraping, but for the right piece at the right price, I'll buy it. For FW, Spartan, TGITG, and some other companies, the resin is just not worth the effort at any price.
I haven't had a chance to use glue on the Heresylab stuff, but I have looked at it all as close as I could through my cokebottle glasses and found it good.
Edit: you can see them when we divvy up the Warlord spoils.
I think I'd be all over this one if I hadn't seen the Artel versions coming out soon... these are gorgeously detailed, but a little spindly for my tastes. Dogs are cool, though... tempted to grab the dogs and handler set.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I sent an email, so I'll wait until I get a response and/or everything is settled before I say more, other than that I am pledging for this KS, too.
Insurgency Walker wrote: How do these folks scale with the new Necromunda figs. Anybody got fotos to share?
Here is a photo with GW, Necromunda, TTGiTG, and a modified Shieldwolf Shieldmaiden. Note that the Hereylab figures come with normal slot a bases, but I used thinner bases for my minis.
Here some pics to clear afew questions.
55.00€ will get you 12 models, 13 if a few more backers join. These will go up to 15 based on funding.
Currently you get over 40% discount and may go up to 60% on retail price.
We are also considering leaving the backers the option to customize their team by choosing individual pieces for it. Very high chance it will happen.
Also for size comparison here a better pic of the models, the girl is on a 32mm base the other model is on a 25mm base.
Domina and Charon in particular look amazing. Might contribute to this one. Now it just needs a not-eldar ranger in a decent sniper pose to replace that ridiculous BSF sculpt
The renders look good. If the sculpts match that quality that'll be pretty impressive.
I have one figure I got from BobtheInquisitor and it's pretty decent. The pose was a bit static and not a lot of parts, but these look a lot more dynamic.
All shipped from Sauberung and HG 1.2. We managed to ship about 55000 miniatures in the past 12 months.
Last delay was caused by an unforeseen fraud we were victim of but is all fixed now.
All shipped from Sauberung and HG 1.2. We managed to ship about 55000 miniatures in the past 12 months.
Last delay was caused by an unforeseen fraud we were victim of but is all fixed now.
Should I worry that I haven't received anything yet?
All shipped from Sauberung and HG 1.2. We managed to ship about 55000 miniatures in the past 12 months.
Last delay was caused by an unforeseen fraud we were victim of but is all fixed now.
Should I worry that I haven't received anything yet?
Just email me at INFO@HERESYLAB.COM and we will look into it. No worries you will get your models one way or another.
I see half a dozen minis I want to get already, but may change my pledge higher as the campaign progresses. I've enjoyed all the minis I've received from you from the first campaign but unfortunately that trouble with the last package means I can't speak to the quality of your most recent releases from the last two campaigns.
I'm a sucker for lady culexuses, in for Entrophy / Jadedevil at the least. Domina is pretty slick too, and there are some great sculpts late in the unlocks (cheesecake 'zerker <3)
The biker chicks look seriously awesome, as do the admech ladies. Might upgrade to level.10 if the bikes get unlocked and there are some decent freebies. Time will.tell.
Later will post some images of the work we are doing, in the meanwhile you can see some of it on o
ur FACEBOOK page. Just seek HeresyLab
We have a temporary website but we are working on the new version.
Http://www.HeresyLab.com
I just got the revised Victoria Vasilev 2.0
Automatically Appended Next Post: A few pics of the models we are working on:
Painted Elsina Hell from Den of Imagination
Nice models. I especially like the pose of the Vindicare (Auditor) who casually sits there while taking her shots. Though Robocop (Stalia Drogan) never had a dog so get rid off the canine. A better pose would be also for her imo when she is about to draw the handgun from her leg compartment because it´s a unique feature of the character:
The gun itself looks too small by the way while some weapons (Lust Xenia, Maertho, Tomoe Gozen) are either too big or look like an ironing board.
Nearly all the models feature attractive women in different suits or armours with the exception of a few (e.g. Gurten Lena, Lady of Decay, Sister Mary, Grandma Decay). So who is going to buy the ugly ones? I fear these will collect dust on your shelves.
The tone of the models is serious and not tongue in cheek as they don´t wear cheesecake armour which is fine by the way but I think at least Lust Xenia would have profited by wearing tactical high-heels as she is supposed to be in league with Slaanesh.
The Arbites are called "Sauberung" as in ethnic cleansing which is an euphemism for genocide. It´s a tasteless unit name which will drive some of your potential customers away.
Not that I don't mind. I like Red Willow's design enough to forgive them.
No idea what I'd use Maertho for, but I'm digging her...
Well, there is nothing wrong with her blade in the pic you posted. I just don´t like characters who think their surfboards are good enough for close combat.
Strg Alt wrote: Well, there is nothing wrong with her blade in the pic you posted. I just don´t like characters who think their surfboards are good enough for close combat.
Cool. The first jetbike girl is unlocked. Hoping it gets as far as model 80 then I can pretty much run a full BSF crew with super awesome female models
If you want to do addon units, do they count as part of your total for going from level 10 to 11? Or are the costs separate from your pledge? First kickstart here.
The new designs (especially the assassins) are amazing - but questions regarding scale is keeping me from buying.
Not a fan of small minis with tiny heads & hands.
I recently got my Sauberung.
Nice sculpts but unfortunately way to small for use in 40k/Necromunda. Especially since Arbitrators IMHO need to be rather butch.
Therefore they will end up in the trash or given away :(
I'm tempted to pledge Lvl 10 just for the files. I'm just wondering how big they could be printed at before they lack detail. I want big display models of the assassins.
kendoka wrote:The new designs (especially the assassins) are amazing - but questions regarding scale is keeping me from buying.
Rolsheen wrote:I'm tempted to pledge Lvl 10 just for the files. I'm just wondering how big they could be printed at before they lack detail. I want big display models of the assassins.
Bumping for halfway. Really looking forward to anything else that might get unlocked. However as long as it gets to mini 80 I'll.be satisfied. Some really lovely pieces in there.
Woohoo. After a real slowdown, model 80 just got unlocked tonight. Yaaaay. Really looking forward to getting these ladies, and it's still only about halfway through the campaign
Still 11 days to go so let's see what any last minute bumps in funding bring us
Also, does anyone know who GR is? Lots of the renders have that worked into the detail somewhere.
JBSchroeds wrote: Can somebody help me out here, I'm not sure I'm reading the kickstarter page correctly. Are the STL files really just as expensive as the resin models? Pretty much none of these designs are ones that you'd want multiples of, so is the only point of printing them yourself the saving on shipping? I like the designs for a lot of this stuff, but there's no way I'd pay nearly $10 a pop for a 32mm figure's STL that'll only be used once.
in an earlier project there was some confusion by people selecting the cheaper option (which was STL files) and expecting to get models. this way if that issue happens again its the same price so swapping is easier.
JBSchroeds wrote: Can somebody help me out here, I'm not sure I'm reading the kickstarter page correctly. Are the STL files really just as expensive as the resin models? Pretty much none of these designs are ones that you'd want multiples of, so is the only point of printing them yourself the saving on shipping? I like the designs for a lot of this stuff, but there's no way I'd pay nearly $10 a pop for a 32mm figure's STL that'll only be used once.
Different things for different people. 1 32mm resin miniature or 1 STL that can be 28mm miniature, 32mm miniature, 75mm miniature, 150mm or larger display piece. There are also some alternate pieces that allow you to print duplicates of them and utilize all the pieces instead of swapping, choosing or magnetizing.
Boo... the next 2 things revealed.are just alts for existing reveals. Oh well, more free stuff is.always good. I guess the alt purifier weapon will be unlocked as usual.and then the extra biker lady head will be handed out as a freebie because I really doubt we'll get much past 52500 in the next 24 hours, and he's already mentioned in the updates that an alt head was in the running
