I find their approach of the announcement in the mail they sent a bit odd... New codexes! It is all xenos! We even have new models for those xenos codexes! It's an imperial knight!!!
ChaosDad wrote: I find their approach of the announcement in the mail they sent a bit odd... New codexes! It is all xenos! We even have new models for those xenos codexes! It's an imperial knight!!!
...
...
Wait... What?
LOOTED IMPERIAL KNIGHTS AN ORK CODEX OPTION CONFIRMED?
ChaosDad wrote: I find their approach of the announcement in the mail they sent a bit odd... New codexes! It is all xenos! We even have new models for those xenos codexes! It's an imperial knight!!!
...
...
Wait... What?
Well there's also the Cryptek, but the smaller Knight is interesting.
Nice to have some cheaper options if you want to run the IK dex pure at least.
I seriously hope the DE dex is decent, it might get me to pick up the current edition. The knight looks like an IK and a Dragoon / Ironstrider had a baby, not impressed...
They announced a bunch of new Dark Elf models too, which might as well have been included in the Dark Eldar news since that’s what half the sales on those new kits will be used for.
Badablack wrote: They announced a bunch of new Dark Elf models too, which might as well have been included in the Dark Eldar news since that’s what half the sales on those new kits will be used for.
Viridian wrote: I seriously hope the DE dex is decent, it might get me to pick up the current edition. The knight looks like an IK and a Dragoon / Ironstrider had a baby, not impressed...
I honestly feel it looks a bit like a Uziel from Mechwarrior
But in typical GW style, they could not let xenos just have their moment. Nope gotz to get that new knight model in there. Cannot let them xenos have the spot light, not even in the announcement they have bern waiting for the past 6 months.
Tau players aren't happy the focus is apparently away from auxiliaries and commander spam "addressed".
Necron players wanted more than a monopose small hq model.
Drukhari players had no Vect confirmed and no new models.
Ork players still in the dark.
But hey here's a new Imperial Knight that nobody asked for lol K bye.
I get the feeling GW aren't actually listening to a big proportion of their player base.
Tau codex rules not known yet.
Necrons are getting way more than most codexes so far.
Dark eldars are thus in same boat as most of codexes. In case you haven't noticed it codex=new models isn't true automatically in 8th ed.
Necrons are going to need to release a lot more then 1 cryptek. Currently every named character is finecast i.e. OOP. Necrons need a release of a lot of their guys in plastic.
I'm curious how GW solves the problem of Necrons destroying tanks.
In former editions, Necron Warriors with their Gauss weapons needed four sixes to destroy a LR by glancing it to death.
Now, Gauss weapons have S4, AP-1, D1, while LR have 16 wounds and a 3+ save.
Does this mean that the board will stop spamming "omg more imperium/power armour/uninteresting to me" threads that were nothing more than salt mines.
One can hope.
On a more serious note, nice looking Knight model, hopefully they address the issues knight armies have at the moment when the model inevitably drops with the Codex.
tneva82 wrote: In case you haven't noticed it codex=new models isn't true automatically in 8th ed.
Yep if anything new models have appeared almost at random compared to codex releases. Even some almost dead certainties (eg combined biovore/pyrovore and lictor/deathleaper kits for tyranids) in releases haven't yet appeared from GW. They've still not really addressed how, if any, change will be made to how they are going to release actual new models and units into factions going forward from the codex releases.
Still nice to see Necrons getting one more core choice of their armies in plastic; this leaves the flayers (which I wouldn't be shocked if they duel kit with something else new) and then just heroes in finecast.
Also have they given any dates/schedule for release? As it stands I would guess is February and March covered for releases if they stick to two codex a month. So if its Tau - Necron - Dark Eldar and then we just have to wonder where the Dark Elves slot into that (yes sorry GW for all your renaming the old names are easier ). If the March Necron release rumour is accurate then it could be Tau - Dark Elves - Necron - Dark Eldar.
The new knight looks very cool, I might get two at some point. and I'm excited for the T'au Codex. But in my heart I know they won't fix the problems Tau face. I just want my Ongar gauntlet back, that they can do without much effort.
Lance845 wrote: Necrons are going to need to release a lot more then 1 cryptek. Currently every named character is finecast i.e. OOP. Necrons need a release of a lot of their guys in plastic.
That is simply not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Making cavity plates for injection moulded plastic is a super expensive and time-consuming process. It is not that you can just cast a rubber mould from your plaster master, like you can with spin-casted pewter or vacuum casted resin.
tneva82 wrote: In case you haven't noticed it codex=new models isn't true automatically in 8th ed.
Yep if anything new models have appeared almost at random compared to codex releases.
Some of their rubber moulds are probably more worn than others. And then it becomes a question of: Is it smarter to make a new batch of silicone moulds or order a 20000 £ cold runner insert.
Just started collecting WH40K Necrons, So I'm stoked new Codex is being released! I hope I can annihilate all those who told me to start off with punny space marines!
Bout time we got some xenos, although I'm absolutely baffled how Dark Eldar are higher up on the release schedule than orks. From what I understand Dark Eldar isn't too bad, whereas orks are insanely one dimensional right now and one of the armies the game is most known for, right behind space Marines.
While I will admit the knight isn't bad, why hype up the "year of the xenos" then use half your big reveal for 3 xenos codexes on a knight model? Doesn't make sense.
At least we're finally getting some xenos codexes. The game desperately needs some variety, as it sits most codexes are imperial/chaos and it's getting old. Here's hoping they address the one dimensional nature many index armies are facing right now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: DE are one of those sleeper hit Index armies. A codex will definitely make them do super well I think.
More importantly is I need a new spark with my Necrons.
maybe, but there are some glaring problems that NEED to be fixed. As it stands, about 1/4 of the codex has no way to get subfaction tactics (theyre just listed as "Drukhari") and the remaining 3/4s are all split such that, for instance, it would be impossible to make a Wych Cult or Haemonculus Covens brigade detachment even if you wanted to (since WC have no access to Heavy support and HC have no access to Fast Attack)
A new codex without significant restructuring, or a new system (for instance, maybe you choose a subfaction from your preferred one of the three, and then the rest of the units in the detachment count as mercenaries but still fill your slots). it would stink if, for instance, a guy with an existing dark eldar army needed to figure out how to get his Reaver Jetbikes into their own separate detachment to avoid breaking the subfaction tactics in his Kabal list, because Reavers are now limited to Wych Cult Only.
With necrons and Tau I feel the systems are at least in place to make them functional, they're just too weak atm.
I am hoping that they are holding off the Ork and Space Wolf Codexes for a global campaign that focuses on those two factions.
That, or they really have their hands full trying to make Orks interesting to play besides Boyz, Boyz, Boyz and more Boyz.
Really hoping that the Tau Codex changes them up from the Commander Spam that seems to be their best tactic. Would love to see some diversity in that army.
But why... Why do Necrons get Lord Cryptek Shaq, master of the slam dunk. That model is so goofy looking, the details look great, don't get me wrong, the pose is just awful.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Bout time we got some xenos, although I'm absolutely baffled how Dark Eldar are higher up on the release schedule than orks. From what I understand Dark Eldar isn't too bad, whereas orks are insanely one dimensional right now and one of the armies the game is most known for, right behind space Marines.
While I will admit the knight isn't bad, why hype up the "year of the xenos" then use half your big reveal for 3 xenos codexes on a knight model? Doesn't make sense.
At least we're finally getting some xenos codexes. The game desperately needs some variety, as it sits most codexes are imperial/chaos and it's getting old. Here's hoping they address the one dimensional nature many index armies are facing right now.
All 3 of those codices have generally newer model lines than the ork book. SO it is possible that orks are waiting on a bunch of updated models while these books are not. They might also want to get all the Aeldari done Releasing DE means they only need to to Harlequins and then they are essentially done (ynnari as of now is basically 3 models + other books)
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am hoping that they are holding off the Ork and Space Wolf Codexes for a global campaign that focuses on those two factions.
That, or they really have their hands full trying to make Orks interesting to play besides Boyz, Boyz, Boyz and more Boyz.
Really hoping that the Tau Codex changes them up from the Commander Spam that seems to be their best tactic. Would love to see some diversity in that army.
But why... Why do Necrons get Lord Cryptek Shaq, master of the slam dunk. That model is so goofy looking, the details look great, don't get me wrong, the pose is just awful.
If it is a polystyrene model, it is almost certainly not a monopose.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am hoping that they are holding off the Ork and Space Wolf Codexes for a global campaign that focuses on those two factions.
That, or they really have their hands full trying to make Orks interesting to play besides Boyz, Boyz, Boyz and more Boyz.
Really hoping that the Tau Codex changes them up from the Commander Spam that seems to be their best tactic. Would love to see some diversity in that army.
But why... Why do Necrons get Lord Cryptek Shaq, master of the slam dunk. That model is so goofy looking, the details look great, don't get me wrong, the pose is just awful.
If it is a polystyrene model, it is almost certainly not a monopose.
Technically, no model made out of such an easily cut material as plastic can really be called "monopose".
To be fair re: "Year of the Xenos" GW never stated that. I think it was Spikey Bits and/or BOLS clickbaiters who first coined the term, and everyone started to think it means we'd see all the xenos races overhauled.
Glad for DE/Necrons/Tau. The knight I could care less about; it seems A) a blatant bone thrown to the imperium players so they don't feel left out and B) a way to allow all knight armies to be just mild garbage not useless garbage (because an all elite army is pretty bad in this edition)
MrMoustaffa wrote: Bout time we got some xenos, although I'm absolutely baffled how Dark Eldar are higher up on the release schedule than orks. From what I understand Dark Eldar isn't too bad, whereas orks are insanely one dimensional right now and one of the armies the game is most known for, right behind space Marines.
I play both armies, and drukhari are currently one dimensional just like orks. Basically a glass cannon gunline, with 75% of the units that are unplayable. I think orks have even more flexibility and viable options than drukhari. At competitive levels orks are currently more performing than drukhari.
Of course I'm not considering mixed lists with other kinds of elves allied to them.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Bout time we got some xenos, although I'm absolutely baffled how Dark Eldar are higher up on the release schedule than orks. From what I understand Dark Eldar isn't too bad, whereas orks are insanely one dimensional right now and one of the armies the game is most known for, right behind space Marines.
While I will admit the knight isn't bad, why hype up the "year of the xenos" then use half your big reveal for 3 xenos codexes on a knight model? Doesn't make sense.
At least we're finally getting some xenos codexes. The game desperately needs some variety, as it sits most codexes are imperial/chaos and it's getting old. Here's hoping they address the one dimensional nature many index armies are facing right now.
Well they don't reveal more than 3 codex at a time so what you were expecting? Especially as 8th ed hasn't been show of models along codexes all that much...
And at least this gives hope orks get more models in release. Otherwise tons of options like warboss on MA are going to go index only.
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Wayniac wrote: To be fair re: "Year of the Xenos" GW never stated that. I think it was Spikey Bits and/or BOLS clickbaiters who first coined the term, and everyone started to think it means we'd see all the xenos races overhauled.
Glad for DE/Necrons/Tau. The knight I could care less about; it seems A) a blatant bone thrown to the imperium players so they don't feel left out and B) a way to allow all knight armies to be just mild garbage not useless garbage (because an all elite army is pretty bad in this edition)
Well since GW said codexes would be updated within year for major factions...Not much tiny factions in xenos left and with most imperial/chaos ones done and only xenos left pretty logical term.
As I said elsewhere, this leaves Orks as the last major xenos faction, only Harlequins, Ynnari and Genestealer Cult are left on the Xenos side after this and apparently Harlequins are right after Drukhari. An Ork model release is almost a guarantee at this point, seeing as it can be argued that Orks have the most issues of any Index army left so far and hence leaving them last is so darned painful. Harlequins and Ynnari are still good and Genestealer Cult can always piggyback off of possibly the two strongest codex armies in the game (Astra Militarum, Tyranids). Orks are currently the ones getting the short end of the stick, which ideally would signal them getting the most xenos model love of the initial 8th Edition codex rush.
tneva82 wrote: Tau codex rules not known yet.
Necrons are getting way more than most codexes so far.
Dark eldars are thus in same boat as most of codexes. In case you haven't noticed it codex=new models isn't true automatically in 8th ed.
Do you actually read my posts or do you just button mash whenever you see I've commented on something in a fit of desperate rage? I didn't say that codex = new models. I said that people are underwhelmed with the announcement for various reasons. The primary reason being the "oh hey look Imperium got a cool new Knight to play with while Crons got a singular monopose HQ and other xenos got nothing in the way of new models" way that GW have made this announcement.
wuestenfux wrote: I'm curious how GW solves the problem of Necrons destroying tanks.
In former editions, Necron Warriors with their Gauss weapons needed four sixes to destroy a LR by glancing it to death.
Now, Gauss weapons have S4, AP-1, D1, while LR have 16 wounds and a 3+ save.
One radical way of doing it would be to give tesla haywire.
Of course, the problem there is that tesla may become the more popular choice, as it's then good at killing light infantry / vehicles, as opposed to gauss which would just be anti-heavy infantry.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am hoping that they are holding off the Ork and Space Wolf Codexes for a global campaign that focuses on those two factions.
That, or they really have their hands full trying to make Orks interesting to play besides Boyz, Boyz, Boyz and more Boyz.
Really hoping that the Tau Codex changes them up from the Commander Spam that seems to be their best tactic. Would love to see some diversity in that army.
But why... Why do Necrons get Lord Cryptek Shaq, master of the slam dunk. That model is so goofy looking, the details look great, don't get me wrong, the pose is just awful.
If it is a polystyrene model, it is almost certainly not a monopose.
Technically, no model made out of such an easily cut material as plastic can really be called "monopose".
Okay, so you move the arms around a little bit, and now you have a skipping Cryptek. Lord Cryptek Skip, master of Hop Scotch and pleasant walks. Nope, I still don't care for it.
But why... Why do Necrons get Lord Cryptek Shaq, master of the slam dunk. That model is so goofy looking, the details look great, don't get me wrong, the pose is just awful.
Yeah, the pose is weird. Like, what is even happening? Is it leaping? Can necrons leap now? CS Goto now works on the design team, it seems.
This is something that Lord of War armies need: small and fairly cheap support elements.
My baneblade companies have only improved as I've taken 500 points of support; with Knights, that was much harder to do. Now you can bring small, fast, cheap Knights and dispense with the support entirely (presumably).
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, I give up on you Xenos players. You're getting three books in a row and you'll still nitpick everything.
To be fair, if you compare the model releases Xenos players are confirmed to be getting/have gotten so far in 8th Edition to what Imperial armies are getting/have received, it's a pretty grim picture. New kits are always exciting and a solitary plastic character (plus the made-to-order stuff I guess) across all those xenos armies is undeniably slim pickings. It's not hard to see why they'd be upset, particularly if they only play one of those armies.
However, the future is bright. There's definitely a new wraith construct coming with one of the three Aeldari factions that don't currently have a released codex (I doubt it's Drukhari but I won't assume as much) which more than likely signals Ynnari getting several unique units at some point, and it's looking very likely that Orks will get new kits too. Chaos and Imperium players have been getting their fill so far model-wise, it'll be the xenos players' time for new kits soon.
Caederes wrote: As I said elsewhere, this leaves Orks as the last major xenos faction, only Harlequins, Ynnari and Genestealer Cult are left on the Xenos side after this and apparently Harlequins are right after Drukhari. An Ork model release is almost a guarantee at this point, seeing as it can be argued that Orks have the most issues of any Index army left so far and hence leaving them last is so darned painful. Harlequins and Ynnari are still good and Genestealer Cult can always piggyback off of possibly the two strongest codex armies in the game (Astra Militarum, Tyranids). Orks are currently the ones getting the short end of the stick, which ideally would signal them getting the most xenos model love of the initial 8th Edition codex rush.
Orks are doing okay for an index army. We are stronger then Necron for sure, and at least no worse than Tau. I don't mind waiting until summer for an Ork Codex to be honest. GW better make it right than make it fast.
As for models, Orks will probably get new buggys and wartrakks. They are perhaps the oldest and most goofy looking models in all of 40k, yet they were somehow singled out for a surprising point-decrease in chapter approved whereas almost nothing else was touched.
The problem is that you're looking at faction blocks. "Imperium" has gotten a lot of stuff, for sure, but as an Imperial Guard player, the new kits I've gotten are...
...
...
....
pismakron wrote: Orks are doing okay for an index army. We are stronger then Necron for sure, and at least no worse than Tau. I don't mind waiting until summer for an Ork Codex to be honest. GW better make it right than make it fast.
As for models, Orks will probably get new buggys and wartrakks. They are perhaps the oldest and most goofy looking models in all of 40k, yet they were somehow singled out for a surprising point-decrease in chapter approved whereas almost nothing else was touched.
That's my point, Tau and Necrons are getting their codexes soon, so of the remaining Index: Xenos armies, Orks are faring the worst. Ergo, very likely they'll get new kits I'd wager.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: The problem is that you're looking at faction blocks. "Imperium" has gotten a lot of stuff, for sure, but as an Imperial Guard player, the new kits I've gotten are...
...
...
....
oh my.
The same is also true of the remaining Index Imperium armies, and it's very likely that most of them won't get new kits.
Still, it's obvious that Xenos players have had the least overall model releases since 8th Edition started compared to Imperium and Chaos, so hopefully that changes soon. Ideally I'd prefer each codex comes with a new kit but that's obviously not GW's strategy with these books currently.
pismakron wrote: Orks are doing okay for an index army. We are stronger then Necron for sure, and at least no worse than Tau. I don't mind waiting until summer for an Ork Codex to be honest. GW better make it right than make it fast.
As for models, Orks will probably get new buggys and wartrakks. They are perhaps the oldest and most goofy looking models in all of 40k, yet they were somehow singled out for a surprising point-decrease in chapter approved whereas almost nothing else was touched.
That's my point, Tau and Necrons are getting their codexes soon, so of the remaining Index: Xenos armies, Orks are faring the worst. Ergo, very likely they'll get new kits I'd wager.
I don't think that is a factor at all. I am pretty sure, that the codex release schedule was planned long before the relative faction power-balance was known.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: The problem is that you're looking at faction blocks. "Imperium" has gotten a lot of stuff, for sure, but as an Imperial Guard player, the new kits I've gotten are...
...
...
....
oh my.
Guard would be well served with plastic infantry sprues for Steel Legion, Tallarn and perhaps Valhallan.
pismakron wrote: I don't think that is a factor at all. I am pretty sure, that the codex release schedule was planned long before the relative faction power-balance was known.
Oh sure, but them being the last major xenos faction to get a codex is telling. Old GW planned their release schedules out 2 years in advance. However, the competitive status of Orks as a whole does make me (among others) hopeful that part of the reason they are last is because they are getting those new kits that everyone wants.
pismakron wrote: I don't think that is a factor at all. I am pretty sure, that the codex release schedule was planned long before the relative faction power-balance was known.
Oh sure, but them being the last major xenos faction to get a codex is telling. Old GW planned their release schedules out 2 years in advance. However, the competitive status of Orks as a whole does make me (among others) hopeful that part of the reason they are last is because they are getting those new kits that everyone wants.
Well rumour has it that Orks and Space Wolfes will be released together in some box-set of sorts. Dunno what to make of that.
I can very much see that happening, I'm sure it was Hastings that said we're getting a plastic Leman Russ model; I doubt Russ would be in that box, but him accompanying some more Space Wolf kits isn't out of the question.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, I give up on you Xenos players. You're getting three books in a row and you'll still nitpick everything.
Hah, I don't even play Xenos. I am just a bit baffled as to who saw the 3d sculpt and said:
"Yup, that is my (NBA) Jam(: On Fire Edition), stop what you are doing and get me a mould of this!"
Is is a nice looking model from a technical aspect, but the pose... that breaks it for me. If that guy if ever in close combat with my Blood Angels, I won't be able to stop imagining him dribbling a Resurrection Orb up into the combat
, and spiking it into my guys' faces to kill them while showing off his sweet foot work.
It is a nonsense pose, and with the way they designed the model, it won't be changed very much without some cutting. And I know I am less likely to cut up a likely $25-30 figure on the day I get it to help it look less stupid.
He will make an all-star Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain cast along with Jazz-Hands Typhus and the Sloppity Bilepiper.
Interesting.. the mini-knight doesn't have a chainsword as much as a chain-paddle, its too stubby. And why the mini-thermal cannon. whatever rules it can get will either make it pointless, when multi-meltas exist, or invalidate the big brother. why not give it a mini-avenger Gatling cannon, IE an assault cannon, or 2.
pumaman1 wrote: Interesting.. the mini-knight doesn't have a chainsword as much as a chain-paddle, its too stubby. And why the mini-thermal cannon. whatever rules it can get will either make it pointless, when multi-meltas exist, or invalidate the big brother. why not give it a mini-avenger Gatling cannon, IE an assault cannon, or 2.
I assume it will come with more than one option, allowing it to fit neatly into Knight armies, e.g. if you prefer the Avenger Gatling Cannon on your bigger knights, then give this guy the Thermal Cannon. Conversely, if you prefer the Thermal Cannon on your bigger knights, then give this guy the Ironhail Slugthrowing Gatling Avenger Bolt Chain Cannon Gun.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, I give up on you Xenos players. You're getting three books in a row and you'll still nitpick everything.
Xenos player here. While I could make a snarky response about having to wait so long, I'm exceptionally happy. My hopes were for Tau and Necrons, but we got Dark Eldar, too! Plus that cryptek model is sexy as hell.
tneva82 wrote: Tau codex rules not known yet.
Necrons are getting way more than most codexes so far.
Dark eldars are thus in same boat as most of codexes. In case you haven't noticed it codex=new models isn't true automatically in 8th ed.
Do you actually read my posts or do you just button mash whenever you see I've commented on something in a fit of desperate rage? I didn't say that codex = new models. I said that people are underwhelmed with the announcement for various reasons. The primary reason being the "oh hey look Imperium got a cool new Knight to play with while Crons got a singular monopose HQ and other xenos got nothing in the way of new models" way that GW have made this announcement.
They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
I'm normally not one for Doom and gloom, but the Tau codex announcement actually has me rather worried. I'm probably reading far too much into it, but it seems very much like they're addressing concerns from outside rather than inside.
By which I mean the "good news, everyone" announcement is that commander spam will be addressed. Not that Tau are getting a solid look over to make sure things work right, not that they'll be making commanders act like... Actual commanders instead of suicidal assassins. It seemed very much like assuring non Tau players that they won't have to worry about it anymore, rather than assuring Tau players they can actually play something else at higher levels.
Because, there's two big ways to "address commander spam", increase the effectiveness of the rest of the army so that they're not entirely reliant on the crutch that commanders have become, or reduce the effectiveness of commanders so that they're not taken... I fear that if they do the later without at least doing a bit of both, that there won't be any reason to play Tau at all. I mean, they're already a highly specialized shooting army that can be outgunned by several other factions.
But... Here's hoping I'm just paranoid and reading far too much into the statement.
The better way to adress Commanders would be to just remove Supreme Command Detachment from the game system.
However, I am sure Tau would get at least up to 25% point decrease on everything, especially vehicles and some weapon choices. Even their core troops, which are quite solid, don't look that hot in comparison to, say AM Skitarii Rangers which are everything like Firewarriors, but better in many ways and cheaper.
More big toys.
More new stuff for Ao$ too.
All the while letting the base rot with NO new models,
no updates, just codex creep to push out of date bs until they replace it all with the flavor of the month next year.
Donkey carrot stick.
Tired of pulling these lugz' wagon.
.
Good newz! Xenos codexes! And done.
No orks. No real story advance. No attention to marginal factions
- just Girlyman and Stormcaste fraternals with their new BBC BFFs Goldencaste fraternals cuz, NEW PLASTIC!
.
For the rest of yooz,
lookin to move forward on your new codex with no new model support?
Buy some new Ao$ models to convert for your 40k stuff that you know you want but aren't gonna get made.
Next year this time, new 40k faction - Sisters of Corn! Newish Ao$ plastics with magic pistols that do everything that DE wyches ever did but better, cuz you know, NEW PLASTIC for the profit gods.
More big toys.
More new stuff for Ao$ too.
All the while letting the base rot with NO new models,
no updates, just codex creep to push out of date bs until they replace it all with the flavor of the month next year.
Donkey carrot stick.
Tired of pulling these lugz' wagon.
As time passes, I see GW for what it is.
Sure, I watch and wait,
but I have learned my lesson.
Good newz! Xenos codexes! And done.
Buy some new Ao$ models to convert for your 40k stuff that you know you want but aren't gonna get made.
Next year this time, new 40k faction - Sisters of Khorne! Newish Ao$ plastics with magic pistols that do everything that DE ever did but better, cuz you know, NEW PLASTIC for the profit gods.
Gw can rot.
Oh, I am not going anywhere I am not givin GW money until they do something right.
Until then, I tell it like it is.
New Coke ain't Old Coke, not by a long shot.
Those that think New Coke is good, great.
Good for you/them.
Deadawake1347 wrote: I'm normally not one for Doom and gloom, but the Tau codex announcement actually has me rather worried. I'm probably reading far too much into it, but it seems very much like they're addressing concerns from outside rather than inside.
By which I mean the "good news, everyone" announcement is that commander spam will be addressed. Not that Tau are getting a solid look over to make sure things work right, not that they'll be making commanders act like... Actual commanders instead of suicidal assassins. It seemed very much like assuring non Tau players that they won't have to worry about it anymore, rather than assuring Tau players they can actually play something else at higher levels.
Because, there's two big ways to "address commander spam", increase the effectiveness of the rest of the army so that they're not entirely reliant on the crutch that commanders have become, or reduce the effectiveness of commanders so that they're not taken... I fear that if they do the later without at least doing a bit of both, that there won't be any reason to play Tau at all. I mean, they're already a highly specialized shooting army that can be outgunned by several other factions.
But... Here's hoping I'm just paranoid and reading far too much into the statement.
I'm guessing what they actually mean is "we'll make sure Commanders aren't the auto-take unit they are now, and that other Tau units are actually worth taking as well". You see Commander/Drone spam because of their efficiency compared to everything else Tau can field, if they level out the playing field a bit then that's something to look forward to. Look at the transition Eldar made from Index to Codex. Almost all of their units were hot garbage. Some of them still are but the majority are now usable to a decent degree. I'd expect the same will happen to Tau, major points drops like Eldar will fix so many problems they have.
Oh, I am not going anywhere I am not givin GW money until they do something right.
Until then, I tell it like it is.
New Coke ain't Old Coke, not by a long shot.
Those that think New Coke is good, great.
Good for you/them.
Swill, fetid swill.
Oh, then you're welcome to stay, also, though it seems like much of your misery is self-inflicted.
If you won't buy anything, then can you expect to keep up with evolving times? I know my 3rd Edition Guard armoured company was lucky to fit 5 tanks on the field at the time, because games were like 1250-1500 and they were vastly more expensive. If I only owned five Leman Russes and never anything else, well... I suppose I'd be understandably upset in 4th, or 5th, or 6th, or 7th, or 8th, that GW wasn't keeping the old armies up to day.
40k players are the architects of their own misery.
Deadawake1347 wrote: I'm normally not one for Doom and gloom, but the Tau codex announcement actually has me rather worried. I'm probably reading far too much into it, but it seems very much like they're addressing concerns from outside rather than inside.
By which I mean the "good news, everyone" announcement is that commander spam will be addressed. Not that Tau are getting a solid look over to make sure things work right, not that they'll be making commanders act like... Actual commanders instead of suicidal assassins. It seemed very much like assuring non Tau players that they won't have to worry about it anymore, rather than assuring Tau players they can actually play something else at higher levels.
Because, there's two big ways to "address commander spam", increase the effectiveness of the rest of the army so that they're not entirely reliant on the crutch that commanders have become, or reduce the effectiveness of commanders so that they're not taken... I fear that if they do the later without at least doing a bit of both, that there won't be any reason to play Tau at all. I mean, they're already a highly specialized shooting army that can be outgunned by several other factions.
But... Here's hoping I'm just paranoid and reading far too much into the statement.
I'm guessing what they actually mean is "we'll make sure Commanders aren't the auto-take unit they are now, and that other Tau units are actually worth taking as well". You see Commander/Drone spam because of their efficiency compared to everything else Tau can field, if they level out the playing field a bit then that's something to look forward to. Look at the transition Eldar made from Index to Codex. Almost all of their units were hot garbage. Some of them still are but the majority are now usable to a decent degree. I'd expect the same will happen to Tau, major points drops like Eldar will fix so many problems they have.
And I hope that's the case, I really do. That was basically what I meant when I said doing both, toning down what could be overly good while boosting the things that just aren't usable...
That being said, if that's what they meant there are a half dozen different ways that they could have made that far more clear. Which is the part that concerns me. Again, it feels like it was said by someone who plays against Tau instead of as them.
I hope Tau sees minor balance tweaks. The last thing I want to see is another imperial guard running around, except highly mobile and with stronger shooting.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
You absolutely can bring a necron model with an eldar or tau army.
You can't in Matched Play, but Matched Play is silly in a lot of other ways too, and you can't assume that 'miniature releases' only are targeted at Matched Play styles.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
That said blanket alliances aren't always a good thing. I think its always best to view armies as single entities. Sure you can take lots of allies as Imperials/Marines (and several of the smaller groups are almost made-to-be-allies by design or limited range); but in general the core armies are what they should be judged upon.
That said at present the ones to be jealous of are Nurgle
Oh, then you're welcome to stay, also, though it seems like much of your misery is self-inflicted.
If you won't buy anything, then can you expect to keep up with evolving times? I know my 3rd Edition Guard armoured company was lucky to fit 5 tanks on the field at the time, because games were like 1250-1500 and they were vastly more expensive. If I only owned five Leman Russes and never anything else, well... I suppose I'd be understandably upset in 4th, or 5th, or 6th, or 7th, or 8th, that GW wasn't keeping the old armies up to day.
40k players are the architects of their own misery.
I am working on airbrushing, atm.
Building my own storage/carry cases from foam core and hot glue
with spaces hand cut for tanks and walkers and so on all from memory foam,
to replace foam trays that are slow to pack and repack.
Strippin a chimera also got in trade, for the imp grd that will fit in with the inquisitorial force that i have been collecting for more than 20 years
Have 30 imp grd just built and have a few old metal characters to lead them, again with the air brush now under the brush.
Eldar are getting redone.
Have a couple old Eldar start collecting boxes to build, and the ones that have been effed with to strip a bit and/or repaint.
Add those to the harelquins that I bought when the harlies were released a couple years ago - like the bikes and skimmer, those were done well,
skipped the rest but used the chance to update my old metals and build some conversions.
Need to magnetize the stompa and build it a box, plus you know, foam core for everything.
Got the arms from an ork boyz box to convert a bunch of old fantasy orcs to 40k boys.
Got a Mantic terrain box to build out, a huge box, and a bunch of 40k terrain bits and pieces to add and base.
When that is all done, I have a couple tanks to finish painting to a higher standard,
some LOTS of stuff to have shipped over from the States to complete the assortment - old predator, really excited to get that here,
and GKs and SoBs to finish, too.
Metal shipping is huge, so.... Might let that stuff go to the ebay gods if my brother wants to list them else they will sit for another ten years.
Anyways, I have a lot on my plate atm.
If I buy anything, it will not be from GW.
China, trades, ebay.
Oh, and I am not miserable.
Far from it.
Disappointed, in humanity generally and especially bizniz people, but not miserable.
Perfectly happy to point out the obvious to those blinded by the rose colored glasses.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
You absolutely can bring a necron model with an eldar or tau army.
You can't in Matched Play, but Matched Play is silly in a lot of other ways too, and you can't assume that 'miniature releases' only are targeted at Matched Play styles.
The content seems to target narrative but the rules seem more bent on matched play.
What percentage of players do you think do not use matched play rules? It has to be tiny. Every narrative game i've ever seen uses matched play rules, for instance. The game is just super broken without those restrictions.
In 8th edition it seems like the game is absolutely targeting matched play almost exclusively.
Deadawake1347 wrote:And I hope that's the case, I really do. That was basically what I meant when I said doing both, toning down what could be overly good while boosting the things that just aren't usable...
That being said, if that's what they meant there are a half dozen different ways that they could have made that far more clear. Which is the part that concerns me. Again, it feels like it was said by someone who plays against Tau instead of as them.
Tau are a challenging army to balance, unfortunately. I really hope they get it right. Honestly, given how amazingly they did with the Tyranid codex, I'm thinking they're certainly capable of getting it right this time. Mostly what they need are major points drops, the nice thing is that we don't have a good grasp of what their stratagems will be so they could surprise us with some really neat stuff.
Marmatag wrote:I hope Tau sees minor balance tweaks. The last thing I want to see is another imperial guard running around, except highly mobile and with stronger shooting.
Tau need some pretty major buffs as an overall faction to compete in 8th Edition. Ideally, every codex would be equivalent to Tyranids where virtually every unit is strong with some being slightly stronger than others but not invalidating those other choices. Thematically, a Tau army should not be spamming Drones and Commanders. Tau players don't want "ZOMG OP" they just want a nicely balanced codex. Of note is that the internal balance of the Tau has been garbage for several editions straight, so if GW can rectify that after so many failed attempts then they'll earn (more of) my respect.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, I give up on you Xenos players. You're getting three books in a row and you'll still nitpick everything.
I actually really appreciate that my primary army is getting a confirmed update soon, and that they are updating the character models to plastic.
That doesn't mean I can't critique aethestique choices the designers made. To me, the cryptek update looks rather confusing; its hard to tell what, exactly, its doing, or how it could be practical to have a large machine like that attached to its back that just sort of trails behind him. Likewise, in terms of structure I'm worried that the stem it's on isn't tough enough and might break, or its not balanced right, resulting in the damned thing tipping over when its touched by a light breeze. Like the plastic terradons. Which fall every. Goddamned. Time.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
You absolutely can bring a necron model with an eldar or tau army.
You can't in Matched Play, but Matched Play is silly in a lot of other ways too, and you can't assume that 'miniature releases' only are targeted at Matched Play styles.
The content seems to target narrative but the rules seem more bent on matched play.
What percentage of players do you think do not use matched play rules? It has to be tiny. Every narrative game i've ever seen uses matched play rules, for instance. The game is just super broken without those restrictions.
In 8th edition it seems like the game is absolutely targeting matched play almost exclusively.
The 'rules' and 'gameplay' and 'community' might be, but we're talking about miniature releases.
Do you think GW bases its miniature releases on Matched Play alone? Hell, not even it's book releases are focused on Matched Play alone.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, I give up on you Xenos players. You're getting three books in a row and you'll still nitpick everything.
I actually really appreciate that my primary army is getting a confirmed update soon, and that they are updating the character models to plastic.
That doesn't mean I can't critique aethestique choices the designers made. To me, the cryptek update looks rather confusing; its hard to tell what, exactly, its doing, or how it could be practical to have a large machine like that attached to its back that just sort of trails behind him. Likewise, in terms of structure I'm worried that the stem it's on isn't tough enough and might break, or its not balanced right, resulting in the damned thing tipping over when its touched by a light breeze. Like the plastic terradons. Which fall every. Goddamned. Time.
You should have seen these guys
All metal original hormagaunts - ALWAYS front heavy!
As for aesthetics I often find that some models look odd in "most" or standard photos, but look fantastic in person. Vis versa some models look great in photos, but never quite live up to their photographs in the flesh. The Cryptek might well be one of those cases where the model doesn't quite look right until you've got it in hand and see it in person.
I think it will be more interesting also when we see the rules for it and how it interacts with the spyders and scarabs in the army. Heck might be a fun one to put a few spare/extra scarabs onto the base along with its deadly spider assistant.
The IK looks interesting. We’ll have to see how it’s costed. More codices are always welcome, and if they take after Tyranids rather than GK then we might see some decently balanced rules. The Cryptek looks weird, but that might just be the paint job and the pose.
Marmatag wrote: In my opinion, Tau should either have mobility or good shooting, but not both.
There is nothing more frustrating than playing against Tau. You will never catch them. If by some miracle you do, they'll just fly out of combat.
I really don't like Tau, at all. They're just not fun to play against.
The problem as it is now is that Tau don't really have good anything. They're a heavily dedicated shooting army with no melee, that can't win most fire fights, and their mobility is nearly non-existent after the loss of jump-shoot-jump. All jetpack models are now worse jump pack ones.
Although I can't help but find it amusing that you don't find it fun to play against. That's what I'm hearing now, and people are destroying my army without too much effort, unless I rely on the crutches that are commanders and drones. I've been playing Tau since fifth edition and not once before eighth have I ever have someone complaining about my army. But in eighth I basically have two options, win first turn through commanders hitting as much of the enemy line as possible... Or lose hard if I use any strategy aside from alpha strike. I want to play the game, not be shoehorned into one winning strategy with effectively one list.
Unit1126PLL wrote: You absolutely can bring a necron model with an eldar or tau army.
You can't in Matched Play, but Matched Play is silly in a lot of other ways too, and you can't assume that 'miniature releases' only are targeted at Matched Play styles.
You play many games with mixed Necron and Eldar army? You play many Narrative or Open games? I don't know anyone, personally.
Regardless, my point is to explain the reasoning behind the dissatisfied feeling of those Tau, Necron and DEldar players.
Disappointed, in humanity generally and especially bizniz people, but not miserable.
Perfectly happy to point out the obvious to those blinded by the rose colored glasses.
Please, oh wise one, tell us more things so that we may grovel at your feet for scraps of your True Wisdom for we are truly Blind!
Marmatag wrote: In my opinion, Tau should either have mobility or good shooting, but not both.
There is nothing more frustrating than playing against Tau. You will never catch them. If by some miracle you do, they'll just fly out of combat.
I really don't like Tau, at all. They're just not fun to play against.
The problem as it is now is that Tau don't really have good anything. They're a heavily dedicated shooting army with no melee, that can't win most fire fights, and their mobility is nearly non-existent after the loss of jump-shoot-jump. All jetpack models are now worse jump pack ones.
Although I can't help but find it amusing that you don't find it fun to play against. That's what I'm hearing now, and people are destroying my army without too much effort, unless I rely on the crutches that are commanders and drones. I've been playing Tau since fifth edition and not once before eighth have I ever have someone complaining about my army. But in eighth I basically have two options, win first turn through commanders hitting as much of the enemy line as possible... Or lose hard if I use any strategy aside from alpha strike. I want to play the game, not be shoehorned into one winning strategy with effectively one list.
Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.
Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.
To honor your avatar, Hahahahahah. Oh you're serious. Let me laugh harder, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ultimately i agree, a few "chapter tactics" a few point shuffles, an altered marker light table/seeker missiles (basically our only source of mortal wounds, though with Custodes having no source of mortal wounds, we may not get them) could help. our plasma if nothing really needs to not be double nerfed.
Tau are a few stratagems from being "tournament fantastic". They are abhorrent from a internal balance perspective.
I'll hope for a Tyranid style codex.
And for shooting armies I always tought:
Long range, High Number of Shoots, Low mobility, High Strenght of shooting: Imperial Guard.
Short Range, High Number of Shots, High Mobility, Low Streenght of Shooting: Craftworld Eldar.
Medium/Long Range, Medium Number of Shoots, Medium Mobility, Medium Strenght of Shooting: Tau Empire.
With Imperial Guard being the more horde, Tau the medium, and Eldar being elite. Of course that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to be played in different ways like a mechanized veteran Guard List or a high movile, short range Tau Suit list. But I believe the core principles in general of the factions should be those I have said, IMHO.
Marmatag wrote: In my opinion, Tau should either have mobility or good shooting, but not both.
There is nothing more frustrating than playing against Tau. You will never catch them. If by some miracle you do, they'll just fly out of combat.
I really don't like Tau, at all. They're just not fun to play against.
The problem as it is now is that Tau don't really have good anything. They're a heavily dedicated shooting army with no melee, that can't win most fire fights, and their mobility is nearly non-existent after the loss of jump-shoot-jump. All jetpack models are now worse jump pack ones.
Although I can't help but find it amusing that you don't find it fun to play against. That's what I'm hearing now, and people are destroying my army without too much effort, unless I rely on the crutches that are commanders and drones. I've been playing Tau since fifth edition and not once before eighth have I ever have someone complaining about my army. But in eighth I basically have two options, win first turn through commanders hitting as much of the enemy line as possible... Or lose hard if I use any strategy aside from alpha strike. I want to play the game, not be shoehorned into one winning strategy with effectively one list.
Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.
Strong disagree. I don't play Tau, but play against them often (my b/f plays them) and, even with him bringing a few commanders, it's to the point where I have to try and make the games even so it's at least sporting. Feelsbadman.
HuskyWarhammer wrote: Strong disagree. I don't play Tau, but play against them often (my b/f plays them) and, even with him bringing a few commanders, it's to the point where I have to try and make the games even so it's at least sporting. Feelsbadman.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
Ah yes post-codex release means it's same as getting with codex. Lol.
Also mini knight is actually for knight army rather than ad mech and LOT AFTER codex. So dark eldars not getting model while ad mech then got mini knight? Well let's see on december then. After all ad mech didn't get model with codex either.
Stratagems and chapter tactics make or break a codex.
Those of you thinking Tyranids got a top to bottom remodel are wrong. A few units and guns got changed, but not by much. The twin devourer with brainleech worms was a big change, as was the 5++ to a 4++ for flying hive tyrant.
But our true strength lies in stratagems and Hive Fleet tactics. Most of the units in my army were completely unchanged in the codex in regards to their statline.
Consider:
If Grey Knights codex had done this:
Chatper Tactic: Psybolt Ammunition. Increase the strength by 1, and ap by -1, for Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Psycannons, Heavy Psycannon, Psilencers, and Gatling Psilencers.
Give them a stratagem, cast a power - other than smite - twice this turn. Another stratagem: Use when a GK unit shoots. Any wound roll of 6 also deals a mortal wound. Yet another: Use in the psychic phase. In place of casting psychic powers, a GK unit may immediately pile in and fight. Here's another: Deep strike mastery: 3cp - a Grey Knights unit may immediately move after deep striking.
Additionally, alter rites of banishment such that Grey Knight smite deals D3 mortal wounds instead of 1.
Warlord Trait: Master of the Warp. Your warlord rolls 1 dice to deny psychic powers and always denies on a 4+.
None of these change points, and the statline of the models is essentially unchanged.
Deadawake1347 wrote: I'm normally not one for Doom and gloom, but the Tau codex announcement actually has me rather worried. I'm probably reading far too much into it, but it seems very much like they're addressing concerns from outside rather than inside.
By which I mean the "good news, everyone" announcement is that commander spam will be addressed. Not that Tau are getting a solid look over to make sure things work right, not that they'll be making commanders act like... Actual commanders instead of suicidal assassins. It seemed very much like assuring non Tau players that they won't have to worry about it anymore, rather than assuring Tau players they can actually play something else at higher levels.
Because, there's two big ways to "address commander spam", increase the effectiveness of the rest of the army so that they're not entirely reliant on the crutch that commanders have become, or reduce the effectiveness of commanders so that they're not taken... I fear that if they do the later without at least doing a bit of both, that there won't be any reason to play Tau at all. I mean, they're already a highly specialized shooting army that can be outgunned by several other factions.
But... Here's hoping I'm just paranoid and reading far too much into the statement.
This is the problem with them seemingly listening exclusively to the tournament crowd and thinking that is the outside world.
Marmatag wrote: Stratagems and chapter tactics make or break a codex.
Those of you thinking Tyranids got a top to bottom remodel are wrong. A few units and guns got changed, but not by much. The twin devourer with brainleech worms was a big change, as was the 5++ to a 4++ for flying hive tyrant.
But our true strength lies in stratagems and Hive Fleet tactics. Most of the units in my army were completely unchanged in the codex in regards to their statline.
Consider:
If Grey Knights codex had done this:
Chatper Tactic: Psybolt Ammunition. Increase the strength by 1, and ap by -1, for Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Psycannons, Heavy Psycannon, Psilencers, and Gatling Psilencers.
Give them a stratagem, cast a power - other than smite - twice this turn.
Additionally, alter rites of banishment such that Grey Knight smite deals D3 mortal wounds instead of 1.
Warlord Trait: Master of the Warp. Your warlord rolls 1 dice to deny psychic powers and always denies on a 4+.
Would the army be strong?
I vote no, still would be too easy to drown their 20 models in surviving fire
We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.
tneva82 wrote: Ah yes post-codex release means it's same as getting with codex. Lol.
Also mini knight is actually for knight army rather than ad mech and LOT AFTER codex. So dark eldars not getting model while ad mech then got mini knight? Well let's see on december then. After all ad mech didn't get model with codex either.
The only person bringing the codex into this discussion is you. It is irrelevant whether the models were released with the codex, before or after. It has absolutely no bearing.
Please tell me about these Imperial armies that are "jealous" of the single model that's been released for a xenos faction? I'm really interested to know. I suspect you have no answer though, because there isn't really one, because your argument is nonexistent.
Do you really want me to count the new Imperial models, then do the new Chaos models, then the new Xenos ones? So you can see clearly why some people are annoyed?
Marmatag wrote: No concept of balance, spoiled by 7th. <-- most of the Tau community.
You get annoyed when in SM related threads people talks about how "Space marine players this and that", and how they were spoiled and now that the army requires skill to play the complaint. Don't do that to others, please, you are better than that.
That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.
Tau need some love for sure, but they also need some restrictions on commander spam. Or for the commander to not be magically 2+ to hit, which is 2 better than the average Tau.
Marmatag wrote: No concept of balance, spoiled by 7th. <-- most of the Tau community.
You get annoyed when in SM related threads people talks about how "Space marine players this and that", and how they were spoiled and now that the army requires skill to play the complaint. Don't do that to others, please, you are better than that.
(Advance warning: They only stopped the endless refrain of "Eldar players have no concept of balance" at me when I called the mods on them. Engaging directly doesn't work well if you're trying to get them to stop.)
pumaman1 wrote: We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.
All high wound, 2+ save models are expensive in 8th. Perhaps too much so, but that's the design philosophy today. I wouldn't expect huge drops on the riptide.
pumaman1 wrote: We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.
Exactly. Crisis suits and broadsides, specifically, need some loving imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.
I don't know, that Skyhammer mess that permeated last edition had a pretty decent model count. Or all of the free razorbacks/rhinos...
pumaman1 wrote: We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.
Exactly. Crisis suits and broadsides, specifically, need some loving imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.
I don't know, that Skyhammer mess that permeated last edition had a pretty decent model count. Or all of the free razorbacks/rhinos...
Martel732 wrote: That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.
Tau need some love for sure, but they also need some restrictions on commander spam. Or for the commander to not be magically 2+ to hit, which is 2 better than the average Tau.
While I feel like the commanders of an army who's sole focus is shooting should be able to boast a 2+, I couldn't agree more with the notion that they should bring some kind of ability to the table that indicates them calling the shots and not just being great suicide drops. If that means price hikes or restrictions on wargear that's fine.
That aside I'm pretty excited to see the new codex on the way and can't wait for some insights/previews. Maybe this wave of dex's will shake up the local meta a bit!
Martel732 wrote: Maybe commanders get 3+ to hit, but gear options that boost their shooting or help squads a choice.
I would be very happy if the Commander was a 3+ to hit, and gave +1 to hit for friendly units (possibly just suits or whatever) within 6".
Help offaet that sweet, sweet Tau BS of 4+ a bit, and than you would have to run the Commanders WITH something. Be less of an obvious high damage suicide drop unit.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe commanders get 3+ to hit, but gear options that boost their shooting or help squads a choice.
Like maybe an advanced targeting system improves by by 1 (and costs for it) instead of 1 better ap.. as you know... its targets in a better more advanced way.. Not a structural analyzer like darkstrider, which would make more sense to be ap-1 (or -1 T on marked by Darkstrider himself still)
I hope Tau won't be one-dimensionally focused on shooting with the new codex. Because that is often what makes them boring to play against. One-dimensional factions are not fun. I was secretly hoping for some new Kroot or other auxiliary units. I still want to get an army made up of many different Kroot units supported by some big battlesuits and fire warriors one day.
Also really excited for what the DE dex is going to bring.
tneva82 wrote: They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.
There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.
That's a fair point and less a strawman.
The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.
Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?
All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.
IG had Marbo of all things.
AdMech get their mini Knight.
Custodes are all new.
What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.
Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. I don't really care when, as long as it happens before the next Space Marines release and it's not Grey-Knights level terrible.
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Iron_Captain wrote: I hope Tau won't be one-dimensionally focused on shooting with the new codex. Because that is often what makes them boring to play against. One-dimensional factions are not fun.
I was secretly hoping for some new Kroot or other auxiliary units. I still want to get an army made up of many different Kroot units supported by some big battlesuits and fire warriors one day.
Also really excited for what the DE dex is going to bring.
Kroot would be okay. Whatever their Not-Squats dudes were called would be better, GW just has to use the AOS Fyreslayer and Kharadron models and make up rules for em (since that's what they're doing with Chaos, and I could see it happening with Orks too maybe?)...or better yet, suits with swords! They can be energy swords if need be, or even axes, but a couple if new sprues of weapons and a couple of datasheets would be great. Armies who aren't all that Mech focused have theoretically monster CC Mech Walker units, it's sad the fishes don't. (and I need at least one for my ZAFT themed Tau force!)
I'm excited by DE too. I can finally start making more progress of my Aeldari/Ynnari Exodites once I know what DE units I want vs what Craftworld ones I want. Then again, my wallet is already crying under the impending strain.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
Agree with this 100%, it would be nice to see some diversity, and updated kits or new characters. I guess it's too much to hope for an HQ Hormagant, like Salty Pete, or something.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
"All DE players ask for 1 Model, Vect, for years doesnt get" "Necrons ask for a model that isnt single posed, Gets"
This really pissed me off.......... GW knows DE players wants Vect, we been asking for a model form 5th to till and rules since the new 6th Codex (what actually was a 5th codex with many units/gear removed) and yet we dont get...... (so been asking for what? 8yrs?)
We got a crappy Archon model that literally no one likes... WTFGW.
Marmatag wrote: If SOB come before Orks the community should riot, that would be absurd. The fact that Custodes got a codex at all is stupid.
I'll just leave it here. I hope Tau get a balanced codex. Just like i hope for every Xenos faction.
I'd also like to go to an event and see an army besides Eldar, Imperium, and Chaos.
I wouldn't mind if SoB got a codex before Orks since SoB haven't had any love since the advent of plastic minis it seems. That said I totally 100% agree that Custodes should NOT even exist as an army. Same goes for Imperial Knights and AdMek.
Personally I think that considering we KNOW every major faction is getting a codex before mid-year and that this has been a near 1 year release of codex after index releases and after the launch of 8th edition then I'd say we are in a very strong position.
It's not like orks are waiting years for "maybe" a codex this edition - its waiting months for a 100% certain codex (ok so its not 100% - GW could close down - but so long as GW keeps its doors open, orks will have a codex).
Sure its annoying that the Impeiral side gets a lot of attention - but lets face it the marine/imperial customers are well over 50% of GWs total market in sales - so its no surprise they get a lot of attention
Blame GW all you want but they "go where the £€¥$ is" but sometimes they should listen to the squeaky wheel and give some grease to SOB, Xenos, and Orks.
Glad that they're releasing codecies for something other than Imperial. maybe all of the Ork & Necro players in my area can feel a lil bit better and maybe bring those armies and play instead of just collecting dust.
I'd like more stuff than just Vect. In fact we have the monopose grotesque that needs to go, and be replaced by a kit with 3-5 multi parts dudes. Same for the court of the archon and the beastpack, they all needs 5+ man plastic kits.
Then comes Vect, but IMHO it's not a priority. And with him also drazhar.
Honestly from a Necron perspective, I don't care about new model releases. Sure, I'd love to see a plastic Flayed Ones kit that went back to the design asthetic of the old metal ones, but that's really about the only thing. We have perfectly serviceable models for everything else. Just give me a well-balanced codex that has some fun synergies and I'm good. There are plenty of armies that are far worse off on the modeling front than us.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
Adding insult to injury, some xenos used to be able to ally together. Tau, eldar, and Necrons used to be able to play nicely together with minimum drawback, but that got taken away.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
Adding insult to injury, some xenos used to be able to ally together. Tau, eldar, and Necrons used to be able to play nicely together with minimum drawback, but that got taken away.
Thank Gork and Mork that Taudar has been squatted. That abomination was simply super lame.
And anyone asking for plastic models of this and that should remember, that injection molded plastic parts has very high non-recurring costs and very low marginal costs. It only makes economic sense for parts that will sell in volume.
>Commander should be BS3+
They've ALWAYS have been BS2+ in the past. What kind of nonsense suggestion is that? They won't change that.
>Tau are only some Stratagems away of being competitive
No, they're not. They have absurdly bad internal and outside balance as well.
>Remove Supreme Command Detachment!
And thus kill the only way Tau can do well in Matched Play (at least until the Codex hits). Oh, how about playing Farsight and his subcommanders? No, you shouldn't! Because I only think about my own fun, not others'!
Seems to me many folks are still scarred by how Tau did back in 6th and 7th and loathe getting that back... The point is, Tau can't anyway. Not only Instant Death is gone, blast weapons are terrible now and Tau can't ally with anyone in Matched Play.
Bobthehero wrote: Nice Knight, cool to see the Tau getting their rules, hope the people are wrong about the Orks getting new models in the near future.
>Commander should be BS3+
They've ALWAYS have been BS2+ in the past. What kind of nonsense suggestion is that? They won't change that.
They probably won't change that, no, but it is certainly one the issues causing Tau to have bad internal balance. Many of the weapon options are simultaneously over-and undercosted. It is difficult to envision a scenario, where putting a weapon on a commander is not way more efficient than putting it on a crisis suit. Unless they make weapon point-cost depend on bs, like with plasma on scions.
In all honesty - Orks are the only faction that don't really need new models; Orks can/will convert everything regardless - just give us a solid codex with multiple units/playstyles that are viable and I'll be happy.
fe40k wrote: In all honesty - Orks are the only faction that don't really need new models; Orks can/will convert everything regardless - just give us a solid codex with multiple units/playstyles that are viable and I'll be happy.
Conversions are great, but they are seriously bad news to new gamers. Even ork level conversions (which are very forgiving in quality terms) are still a challenge for new players. If not just because new people won't have the backlog of spare-parts so they'd have to buy what they'd need (or be good with greenstuff).
There is some seriously old stuff in Orks that shows its age; bikes and such. That said we've really no idea on if/when GW will issue new models. There are almost no current patterns to their model release that allows any viable predictions.
fe40k wrote: In all honesty - Orks are the only faction that don't really need new models; Orks can/will convert everything regardless - just give us a solid codex with multiple units/playstyles that are viable and I'll be happy.
Really? Without new codex stuff like deth koptas w/rokkits, warboss on mega armour, big mek w/kff without MA etc are going to be removed from codex(and thus also locked in index point costs and rules)
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Overread wrote: There is some seriously old stuff in Orks that shows its age; bikes and such. That said we've really no idea on if/when GW will issue new models. There are almost no current patterns to their model release that allows any viable predictions.
Bikes are actually one of the newest plastics orks have! Hopefully they redo something that's REALLY old and in need of update like buggies and traks and give models we have rules but no models right now so they wouldn't go "poof" from codex.
Conversions are great, but they are seriously bad news to new gamers. Even ork level conversions (which are very forgiving in quality terms) are still a challenge for new players. If not just because new people won't have the backlog of spare-parts so they'd have to buy what they'd need (or be good with greenstuff).
I disagree with this, many orks conversions are just pure kitbashing. Tankbustas, flash gitz, kommandos and biker characters don't require any green stuff or anything different than GW plastic bitz. Painting the models is way more difficult, especially for the new gamers, than converting orks stuff. But painting is required, right? Seriously I don't get all the hate conversions and kitbashing are taking in this era of 40k. Not to mention that for me sculpting the green stuff and scratch building vehicles and walkers with plasticard is still way easier than painting at decent levels.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Hello from the Adepta Sororitas. Though, TBH, I'm entirely satisfied with what we have and would be perfectly happy with a codex-only release. Though I think some of us would be highly offended if
I don't begrudge the cryptek, but I find the complaints illogical. I'm not sure why the expectation exists that these will come with massive model releases, considering they're being released weeks apart.
I'm glad that the Necrons are getting their book. They seriously need a look at their rules and re-evaluations of some of them and their value. Are they in need of new models though? No. If anything, I don't think any of the major xenos races are in need of new models at this time; Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks are all definitely adequately provisioned with a diverse range of models and units at their disposal, the question is whether the rules for them are any good.
Well you're welcome to your opinion but I suspect it is not one that most people share. There are many examples of Xeno models that need an update - Eldar Avatar and Aspects, Dark Eldar Grotesques, Ork Buggies, Trakks, Characters (pretty much all of them), Deff Koptas.
You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you've just had a plastic centre-piece model in Celestine. Us Xeno players don't have this liberty, we can't just take models we like the look of. It is literally against the rules.
If Imperium, Chaos and Xeno are the 3 pillars of 40k, it's clear which pillar has not been supported as much as others. This should change. It's good for the game. It encourages more players and greater variety of players.
So basically, people who play SoB or inq should shut up because they can just go play different armies?
fe40k wrote: In all honesty - Orks are the only faction that don't really need new models; Orks can/will convert everything regardless - just give us a solid codex with multiple units/playstyles that are viable and I'll be happy.
What about Buggys, trakks, deffkoptaz, or even a proper waaaghboss kit? The Buggys and trakks are so outdated with their puny little crew that its insulting that they still sell those. Why they are not doing the br deffkoptaz in a kit with options is beyond me. The lack of a waaaghboss kit also is a big issue since parts from tinier orks always look silly without green stuff. I'm tired of seeing the monopose br boss with a variety of of right arms and headswaps.
Marmatag wrote: If SOB come before Orks the community should riot, that would be absurd.
No that would be nice.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence
Well, you can do that too! You can play Primaris or Custodes or Sisters of Silence too! It's called “starting a new army”.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence
Well, you can do that too! You can play Primaris or Custodes or Sisters of Silence too! It's called “starting a new army”.
Except that Imperials do not have to start a new army. You can run every imperial flavor without having to start a new army. You can have imperial guardsmen surrounding Gulliman and Celestine while blood angels charge under cover fire from vindicare assassins. All of this while painting up your new Custodes to add to the soup. Luckily Xenos can do this too that is why they all share the Xenos keyword /s
So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Because I don't like how you look?
Imperium players are never forced to start from scratch , not never start a new army.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
You're not everyone tho. maybe some T'au players want help fighting the greater good and ally with DE Mercenaries (Mandrakes, Sslyths etc.. you know the ones that are actually in the stories that help T'au time to time).
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
I second this, no soups. I'd rather start a full army than mixing factions.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
I second this, no soups. I'd rather start a full army than mixing factions.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
Rumor is that orks are going to get a GSC-style subfaction in the Kult of Speed come December.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
Answer to your question is do you want game to be balance or not. If yes then either all need soup or none can have it. And since gw won't make more restrictions to remove soup...
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
Rumor is that orks are going to get a GSC-style subfaction in the Kult of Speed come December.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
Answer to your question is do you want game to be balance or not. If yes then either all need soup or none can have it. And since gw won't make more restrictions to remove soup...
ERJAK wrote: So basically, people who play SoB or inq should shut up because they can just go play different armies?
That's really really stupid.
It's also not what I wrote or implied.
Imperial players can ally with new Imperial stuff. I don't have the liberty of taking the sweet new Cryptek model with my Orks and play it legally in anything but open play. That make sense? You can buy any Imperial model you like the look of while waiting for your plastic sisters, or new Inquisition henchmen.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence
Well, you can do that too! You can play Primaris or Custodes or Sisters of Silence too! It's called “starting a new army”.
The difference is Imperial players don't have to "start a new army" to do the same, they can just slot in to an existing force and (importantly) they can be played together.
As I said earlier, of the 3 "pillars" of 40k, the Xenos has been severely underwhelming both in terms of model and rules support.
Bobthehero wrote: Nice Knight, cool to see the Tau getting their rules, hope the people are wrong about the Orks getting new models in the near future.
and why exactly?
Because they're my least favorite faction, and I am not looking forward to seeing more of them.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence
Well, you can do that too! You can play Primaris or Custodes or Sisters of Silence too! It's called “starting a new army”.
The difference is Imperial players don't have to "start a new army" to do the same, they can just slot in to an existing force and (importantly) they can be played together.
As I said earlier, of the 3 "pillars" of 40k, the Xenos has been severely underwhelming both in terms of model and rules support.
Pretty much what he said. The whole point is having the ability to choose. This is before you look at how effective soup is on the tabletop. Look at the LVO top8. There's only 2 actually pure army lists: Blood Angels and Craftworld Eldar. 3 of the 4 Eldar lists splash Ynnari and one even splashes DE in the Ynnari. Don't get me wrong I think combined Imperial armies are a cool fluffy concept, but for balance reasons either everyone should be able to mix or nobody can with very few exceptions.
Well, there are WAY more Space Marines players than Ork players. And more Imperial Guard players too! And the Adeptus Mechanicus players too! How about all those new Custodes players?
All those players, that are way way way more numerous than Orks, would be able to add some Sisters of Battle! By your own admission that means releasing Sisters of Battle would be better for more people! Sisters before Orks!!!
You have all the ability to chose that you want: you can buy any army!
If you chose to buy a xenos army then don't complain about your choice afterward, it was your choice after all!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
So? Is there s rule that all factions must be soup factions? I play Orks, and I gave zero wish to ally with Tau or Necrons. That would just be silly.
As for custodes, they are apparently selling as if they were in fact made out of real gold, which explains why GW is continually giving extra attention to the extra manly super-duper soldiers in power-armour: That is what people wants to pay for.
I second this, no soups. I'd rather start a full army than mixing factions.
Then no Aeldari or Imperil soups
Yeah, I can't stand them, and chaos soups as well. I'd never mix my drukhari with eldar or harlequins but rather start a full craftworld or clowns army instead.
Marmatag wrote: If SOB come before Orks the community should riot, that would be absurd.
No that would be nice.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't get to play the "most of my range is metal so you should feel sorry for me" card when you can ally with any number of the latest releases - Primaris, Custodes, Sisters of Silence
Well, you can do that too! You can play Primaris or Custodes or Sisters of Silence too! It's called “starting a new army”.
yeah man but Imperium is all one lump army doncha know? if you play sisters of battle clearly you've magicly got a fully assmbled and painted 2000 points ultramarines and/or guard army!
Bobthehero wrote: Nice Knight, cool to see the Tau getting their rules, hope the people are wrong about the Orks getting new models in the near future.
and why exactly?
Because they're my least favorite faction, and I am not looking forward to seeing more of them.
Sad. You're so bitter that you couldn't fathom the idea of a major faction having new models? Just ignore it or don't play people that use them? You don't need to "see more of them".
Bobthehero wrote: Nice Knight, cool to see the Tau getting their rules, hope the people are wrong about the Orks getting new models in the near future.
and why exactly?
Because they're my least favorite faction, and I am not looking forward to seeing more of them.
Sad. You're so bitter that you couldn't fathom the idea of a major faction having new models? Just ignore it or don't play people that use them? You don't need to "see more of them".
I can fathom it, doesn't mean I have to like it.
The hypocrisy of that statement after some of the stuff he's said about SoB is absolutely delicious.
(Oh but sob aren't a mablahblahblah. If DE and Orkz are major factions, SoB are too...if only just)
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Well, there are WAY more Space Marines players than Ork players. And more Imperial Guard players too! And the Adeptus Mechanicus players too! How about all those new Custodes players?
All those players, that are way way way more numerous than Orks, would be able to add some Sisters of Battle! By your own admission that means releasing Sisters of Battle would be better for more people! Sisters before Orks!!!!
What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
It's interesting though because you have inadvertently taken us down a path of discussion as to why there are so many Imperial releases as oppose to Xenos. Imperial models are much more popular by game design - because they can all ally with each other, the market for Imperial armies is massive (as a whole) in comparison to that of a Xenos faction.
ERJAK wrote: The hypocrisy of that statement after some of the stuff he's said about SoB is absolutely delicious.
(Oh but sob aren't a mablahblahblah. If DE and Orkz are major factions, SoB are too...if only just)
What on Earth are you talking about? I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary. You know the one's ERJAK, those guys who just refuse to consider reason or logic when discussing Sisters. Those people who are so fundamental in their beliefs that they parody the very army they defend.
FrozenDwarf wrote: odd that orcs was not part of this.
after all, dark eldar has allways been a niche..
To be fair a lot of Dark Eldar being a niche was because they were released then ignored by GW for a long long time; they skipped a whole edition way back without a new codex. It kind of set them back being popular as they got more and more outdated. Also they were originally a more "elite" type army and very glass-cannon which tended to make them harder to use for newer players. You can see similar today with Sisters (although they also suffer from a lack of affordable plastic models and marketing).
Generally speaking point out a 40K army with few models; no new rules in a long time or only very high priced models and you've pointed out a niche army.
Marmatag wrote: If SOB come before Orks the community should riot, that would be absurd. The fact that Custodes got a codex at all is stupid.
I'll just leave it here. I hope Tau get a balanced codex. Just like i hope for every Xenos faction.
I'd also like to go to an event and see an army besides Eldar, Imperium, and Chaos.
I wouldn't mind if SoB got a codex before Orks since SoB haven't had any love since the advent of plastic minis it seems. That said I totally 100% agree that Custodes should NOT even exist as an army. Same goes for Imperial Knights and AdMek.
There are significantly more Custodes than any Snowflake Marine Chapter, same with Imperial Knights and majorly so for Ad Mech. Now that the Custodes are active an army is fine, be interesting to see if they do the same for Sisters of Silence.
Orks need some new models
Sisters of Battle need almost all new models.
Eldar need some new models
Non Snowflake marine Chapters need new Models - a untit for each of the first Founding Chapters would be good - and less likely to WOLFY WOLF WOLVES.
It would be nice if those armies that actually needed them go them rather than new/Primaris marines for the same old super flanderised Chapters. Now some will trot out the same tired old arguments that only Marines sell (because they mostly sell Marines) but AOS ranges, the specialist games resurgence and Dark Eldar and GSC tell a different story.
wuestenfux wrote: I'm curious how GW solves the problem of Necrons destroying tanks.
In former editions, Necron Warriors with their Gauss weapons needed four sixes to destroy a LR by glancing it to death.
Now, Gauss weapons have S4, AP-1, D1, while LR have 16 wounds and a 3+ save.
A super easy way to solve this is to give Gauss rending across the board on top of their base -1 AP. This alone would give them a useful option against anything with Gauss (which is what it was supposed to be).
An Actual Englishman wrote: What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
Obviously if that wasn't the case, GW would be releasing codices and new models for Orks!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary.
Totally unlike Orks of course, which *really for realz* are popular, much more so than AdMech or Custodes but also *really for realz* are just unloved by GW, hence the later getting new models and codexes .
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
Rumor is that orks are going to get a GSC-style subfaction in the Kult of Speed come December.
I rather see orks ally with demons then guard.
Orks can on a smaller scale ally with demons especially nurgle and khorne. Plague orks are pretty bad arse.
Guard already ally with all the imperium and tyranids.
I rather see tyranids ally with guard since they have their guerssa force, but they really should have a more pronounced alien presence such as kroot, vespid. Since they are suppose to be the communist coalition army.
necrons have a very loose ally with space marines and imperium. They will feel the most shoehorned of all.
But overall I'm fine with soup armies as long as the bonuses between factions are extremely limited and individual units are continually adjusted to keep them from being over/under powered outliers.
I find it rather weird to tell SoB players to just "pick another army" because through the power of soup it is totally a SoB army even though only 10% of the army is actually SoB models.
Seriously, this is some twisted level of logic. Just don't even go there.
Regarding allies I would love to see a GSC style release for grots that could ally with Orks. Could be rather awesome. Same for Kroot or Vespid for Tau. Necrons are a bit more tricky though.
Regarding Custodes selling well I think that can be attributed to the fact that one can make a decent sized army for a relatively cheap entry fee(comparatively to many other armies). Hell, I've been tempted even though I have almost zero interest in Custodes.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Wanting equality between the factions via allies isnt the same as wanting to play current armies able to ally.
Aeldari and now Tyranids has those options, Necrons, T'au, Orks and some others do not.
Rumor is that orks are going to get a GSC-style subfaction in the Kult of Speed come December.
I rather see orks ally with demons then guard.
Orks can on a smaller scale ally with demons especially nurgle and khorne. Plague orks are pretty bad arse.
Guard already ally with all the imperium and tyranids.
I rather see tyranids ally with guard since they have their guerssa force, but they really should have a more pronounced alien presence such as kroot, vespid. Since they are suppose to be the communist coalition army.
necrons have a very loose ally with space marines and imperium. They will feel the most shoehorned of all.
But overall I'm fine with soup armies as long as the bonuses between factions are extremely limited and individual units are continually adjusted to keep them from being over/under powered outliers.
That's... not what I meant by GSC style. The rumor has nothing to do with Orks allying with Guard, its just that the Kult of Speed is allegedly going to be broken off into its own faction (which, in turn, would give main line orks an army to ally with, like GSC did with Tyranids).
Eldarsif wrote: I find it rather weird to tell SoB players to just "pick another army" because through the power of soup it is totally a SoB army even though only 10% of the army is actually SoB models.
Seriously, this is some twisted level of logic. Just don't even go there.
Regarding allies I would love to see a GSC style release for grots that could ally with Orks. Could be rather awesome. Same for Kroot or Vespid for Tau. Necrons are a bit more tricky though.
Regarding Custodes selling well I think that can be attributed to the fact that one can make a decent sized army for a relatively cheap entry fee(comparatively to many other armies). Hell, I've been tempted even though I have almost zero interest in Custodes.
I think for Necrons you would have to give one of the dynasties a sub-codex, similar to the Blood Angels for Space Marines or Death Guard for CSM. A Mephrit codex focused on using c'tan shards or a Maynarkh assault-heavy codex would be interesting (this is all just wishlisting I don't actually expect to happen, of course).
Not really sure is splitting part of army into ally force really allying...That's like saying IG would gain new ally force if all the tanks would be moved to separate faction.
tneva82 wrote: Not really sure is splitting part of army into ally force really allying...That's like saying IG would gain new ally force if all the tanks would be moved to separate faction.
Are Ultramarines and Blood Angels not an "allied force" because they share some units?
tneva82 wrote: Not really sure is splitting part of army into ally force really allying...That's like saying IG would gain new ally force if all the tanks would be moved to separate faction.
Are Ultramarines and Blood Angels not an "allied force" because they share some units?
I think rather then GSC it'd be better to look at the death guard or 1K sons. where you have some sharec ore units sure but also lots of enw stuff
If cult of speed gets some new unique units that would be cool. If they are literally just the same ork kits with a few different rules that would be annoying. some crossover would be fine, but like the flavors of space marines give some unique units.
honestly I miss the old allies for my orks, I found CSM ork allies to be fun. played it as ork mercenaries (which are 100% a thing) working for whoever paid which in most cases meant chaos marines promising them salvage spoils. I get that people don't want another taudar but imperial soup and elder soup is already so good, throw us non elder/tyranids and ally bone.
Only reason I mentioned Grots for Orks is that currently they aren't very fleshed out model-wise and we already have goblins(or whatever they are called now) as a separate faction in AoS.
I also would love to collect a Grot-only army. Would also not be the first time this has happened. Harlequins were a part of the Craftworld(and later Dark Eldar as well) codex and then moved into its own codex so there is precedent for this.
Also, didn't Imperium do just this? Gain "new" allies because several factions were split up for the Indexes? Feels like the Imperium is a soup because GW can't decide which should go with which tbh.
Eldarsif wrote: I find it rather weird to tell SoB players to just "pick another army" because through the power of soup it is totally a SoB army even though only 10% of the army is actually SoB models.
Seriously, this is some twisted level of logic. Just don't even go there.
They said the same thing to Grey Knights and Deathwatch so join the club.
Eldarsif wrote: Only reason I mentioned Grots for Orks is that currently they aren't very fleshed out model-wise and we already have goblins(or whatever they are called now) as a separate faction in AoS.
I also would love to collect a Grot-only army. Would also not be the first time this has happened. Harlequins were a part of the Craftworld(and later Dark Eldar as well) codex and then moved into its own codex so there is precedent for this.
Also, didn't Imperium do just this? Gain "new" allies because several factions were split up for the Indexes? Feels like the Imperium is a soup because GW can't decide which should go with which tbh.
heck yea, I would love fleshed out grots, codex gretchin, put kans and grot tanks in it, make some fun shooting options including more crew gun options. I would buy that in a heartbeat. I just worry cult of speed codex will be codex orks with even less durability and 1 extra inch to vehicle movement which is the last things orks need (spoiler alert they need some durability on high cost units or large price drops, see lootas and flash gitz)
Blackie wrote: Last thing orks need is having their units split into two different codexes.
You can collect a grot only army even if they are all included into the regular ork codex.
They would then be internally balanced with Orks which would make it rather useless, much like Harlequins before they were thrown out of the Eldar codex and into their own codex.
Everyone talking about fringe models of grots, tau kroot, etc are wishlisting for obscure models Gw is not likely to flesh out.
Of course it is wishlisting. I doubt anyone is claiming otherwise.
Regarding Orks and Demons allying again, wouldn't that require a bit of a rewrite of the lore? I am personally not against it, but I imagine some 40k purists would be against it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
Obviously if that wasn't the case, GW would be releasing codices and new models for Orks!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary.
Totally unlike Orks of course, which *really for realz* are popular, much more so than AdMech or Custodes but also *really for realz* are just unloved by GW, hence the later getting new models and codexes .
1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
An Actual Englishman wrote: What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
Obviously if that wasn't the case, GW would be releasing codices and new models for Orks!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary.
Totally unlike Orks of course, which *really for realz* are popular, much more so than AdMech or Custodes but also *really for realz* are just unloved by GW, hence the later getting new models and codexes .
1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
That is a horrible metric and lacks all perspective. If we were to take last LVO it is quite obvious that Eldar should become the poster boys of Warhammer 40.000(if we follow your rationale) as LVO had 20 Eldar players. With Chaos players at 24 the game could easily be rebranded as a fight between the Aeldari and the evil encroaching Chaos. Orks, Tau and Necrons could by the same metric be removed from the game due to low number of players. Looking further at LVO there were 3 players for Sisters of Battle while Orks had 5. That's not a huge difference in number of players.
Or, and this is the more logical argument, people in tournaments more often favor stronger factions than weaker ones. If it has good rules and is easily available without sacrificing an arm to khorne it will sell, and sell it does when one looks at the history of Aeldari. Wraithknights and Jetbikes sold very well between 6th and 7th edition, but they were also auto-include if you were into the competitive scene.
So please, do not start to claim you have statistics on your side when you can't even argue for those statistics unless you are trying to make an argument for the quote "There are three kindlies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
An Actual Englishman wrote: What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
Obviously if that wasn't the case, GW would be releasing codices and new models for Orks!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary.
Totally unlike Orks of course, which *really for realz* are popular, much more so than AdMech or Custodes but also *really for realz* are just unloved by GW, hence the later getting new models and codexes .
1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
1) this is your exact reasoning for why SoB haven't been redone.
2) which tell you only which armies are easiest to min/max.
Eldarsif wrote: That is a horrible metric and lacks all perspective. If we were to take last LVO it is quite obvious that Eldar should become the poster boys of Warhammer 40.000(if we follow your rationale) as LVO had 20 Eldar players. With Chaos players at 24 the game could easily be rebranded as a fight between the Aeldari and the evil encroaching Chaos. Orks, Tau and Necrons could by the same metric be removed from the game due to low number of players. Looking further at LVO there were 3 players for Sisters of Battle while Orks had 5. That's not a huge difference in number of players.
Or, and this is the more logical argument, people in tournaments more often favor stronger factions than weaker ones. If it has good rules and is easily available without sacrificing an arm to khorne it will sell, and sell it does when one looks at the history of Aeldari. Wraithknights and Jetbikes sold very well between 6th and 7th edition, but they were also auto-include if you were into the competitive scene.
So please, do not start to claim you have statistics on your side when you can't even argue for those statistics unless you are trying to make an argument for the quote "There are three kindlies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Thanks for the input. I'm surprised you totally missed my point, that being - as bad as it is, it is a much better metric than the aforementioned "codex release order" or "has the faction received a new model" claimed by Oxayotl.
You're stats are also wrong - Orks had only 5 players in the top 100 at LVO. I'm sure there were more in the entire tournament. I'm sure there were more at the event (including narrative players etc).
Finally, I don't recall saying it was the only metric that we have to judge popularity either? What I said was; "use statistical evidence to make a sensible judgement, statistical evidence such as (but not only) the number of players of a given faction in a given tournament". There are many other references we could use - players of certain factions at clubs, sales of certain figures etc etc.
EnTyme wrote: 1) this is your exact reasoning for why SoB haven't been redone.
2) which tell you only which armies are easiest to min/max.
1. Is it though? Care to quote me on that champ? I'm certain I know my own reasoning behind why I believe SoB haven't been redone better than you - that being they aren't popular. This isn't based on a 9 month period of releases, or the order in which codexes have been released since 8th dropped, but at their (lack of) support over the last 2 decades. A substantially larger data sample, I think we can both agree.
Eldarsif wrote: That is a horrible metric and lacks all perspective. If we were to take last LVO it is quite obvious that Eldar should become the poster boys of Warhammer 40.000(if we follow your rationale) as LVO had 20 Eldar players. With Chaos players at 24 the game could easily be rebranded as a fight between the Aeldari and the evil encroaching Chaos. Orks, Tau and Necrons could by the same metric be removed from the game due to low number of players. Looking further at LVO there were 3 players for Sisters of Battle while Orks had 5. That's not a huge difference in number of players.
Or, and this is the more logical argument, people in tournaments more often favor stronger factions than weaker ones. If it has good rules and is easily available without sacrificing an arm to khorne it will sell, and sell it does when one looks at the history of Aeldari. Wraithknights and Jetbikes sold very well between 6th and 7th edition, but they were also auto-include if you were into the competitive scene.
So please, do not start to claim you have statistics on your side when you can't even argue for those statistics unless you are trying to make an argument for the quote "There are three kindlies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Thanks for the input. I'm surprised you totally missed my point, that being - as bad as it is, it is a much better metric than the aforementioned "codex release order" or "has the faction received a new model" claimed by Oxayotl.
You're stats are also wrong - Orks had only 5 players in the top 100 at LVO. I'm sure there were more in the entire tournament. I'm sure there were more at the event (including narrative players etc).
Finally, I don't recall saying it was the only metric that we have to judge popularity either? What I said was; "use statistical evidence to make a sensible judgement, statistical evidence such as (but not only) the number of players of a given faction in a given tournament". There are many other references we could use - players of certain factions at clubs, sales of certain figures etc etc.
EnTyme wrote: 1) this is your exact reasoning for why SoB haven't been redone.
2) which tell you only which armies are easiest to min/max.
1. Is it though? Care to quote me on that champ? I'm certain I know my own reasoning behind why I believe SoB haven't been redone better than you - that being they aren't popular. This isn't based on a 9 month period of releases, or the order in which codexes have been released since 8th dropped, but at their (lack of) support over the last 2 decades. A substantially larger data sample, I think we can both agree.
2. See above response to Eldarsif.
Is it just me, or does a post this condescending make every typo and grammatical error really stand out?
I mean, any points are just lost in this jumble of apostrophes and punctuation. "You're stats are also wrong" - this means "You are stats are also wrong." "What I said was;" - this is the worst use of a semicolon ever.
It's like a bad translation from Japanese. I don't want to pick on anyone where English is a second language, but the tone of the original post really draws attention to all the imperfections.
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does a post this condescending make every typo and grammatical error really stand out?
I mean, any points are just lost in this jumble of apostrophes and punctuation. "You're stats are also wrong" - this means "You are stats are also wrong." "What I said was;" - this is the worst use of a semicolon ever.
It's like a bad translation from Japanese. I don't want to pick on anyone where English is a second language, but the tone of the original post really draws attention to all the imperfections.
Is it just me, or is this the biggest and best example of a strawman argument ever?
English is my first language, as you might have worked out from my handle.
Rather than focus on my grammatical errors (the semicolon is actually in perfect use, by the way) because of writing a hasty reply on a phone before leaving for the gym, you could focus on, y'know, my points. Or do you have nothing to dispute or add there?
(the semicolon is actually in perfect use, by the way)
In American English, the semicolon is used to separate 2 independent clauses. To which "what i said was" is not an independent clause, and generally speaking prior to using a quotation, you use a comma, not a semicolon.
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does a post this condescending make every typo and grammatical error really stand out?
I mean, any points are just lost in this jumble of apostrophes and punctuation. "You're stats are also wrong" - this means "You are stats are also wrong." "What I said was;" - this is the worst use of a semicolon ever.
It's like a bad translation from Japanese. I don't want to pick on anyone where English is a second language, but the tone of the original post really draws attention to all the imperfections.
Is it just me, or is this the biggest and best example of a strawman argument ever?
English is my first language, as you might have worked out from my handle.
Rather than focus on my grammatical errors (the semicolon is actually in perfect use, by the way) because of writing a hasty reply on a phone before leaving for the gym, you could focus on, y'know, my points. Or do you have nothing to dispute or add there?
Thought not.
Yeah, most of the English people I know have better grammar. What part of the UK are you from? Pretty sure places like India / Australia are part of the commonwealth, not the country, so your name might not be a true and accurate claim.
In response to your points, the tone and grammatical errors make it hard for anyone to respond. After reading it a few times, nah - that's a horrible metric, and Eldarsif is right. People don't stick with the same army all the time and do make decisions based on what's new and popular.
Why are you assuming there were more than 5 Ork players at LVO? It's the most underrepresented faction at any tournament these days. In my meta, they're called shelf dwellers are dustherds. If you look at BCP, I didn't see more than 5 Ork players in the listings. But maybe you know something I don't.
I actually don't see much data about Orks being popular as Englishman suggests. I just wish he could provide some actual statistics since he demands it of others.
techsoldaten wrote: Yeah, most of the English people I know have better grammar. What part of the UK are you from? Pretty sure places like India / Australia are part of the commonwealth, not the country, so your name might not be a true and accurate claim.
In response to your points, the tone and grammatical errors make it hard for anyone to respond. After reading it a few times, nah - that's a horrible metric, and Eldarsif is right. People don't stick with the same army all the time and do make decisions based on what's new and popular.
Why are you assuming there were more than 5 Ork players at LVO? It's the most underrepresented faction at any tournament these days. In my meta, they're called shelf dwellers are dustherds. If you look at BCP, I didn't see more than 5 Ork players in the listings. But maybe you know something I don't
Not that I have to defend my handle but I'm from the Midlands you pedant. I am literally English. Not British or from the Commonwealth. I've never heard anyone from India or Australia claim they were English either. Ridiculous. Where are you from, might I ask? Most people these days don't use grammar at all. Most people write as quickly and shorthand as possible ala txting.
So you haven't read my posts at all then? If you had you'd have realised that I didn't claim it was THE ONLY metric. Merely A metric.
There were more than 5 Ork players at LVO, the reference about 5 players is in with regard to the top 100, I know this because I saw the same information. I know there were more because others who attended the event confirmed. Unless they're liars, which begs the question why?
Your meta is odd, Orks are doing well (for a change) in tournaments and we have always had a presence, regardless of ability.
Regarding grammar - 'and' following a comma is poor usage. I guess English isn't your first language?
Eldarsif wrote: I actually don't see much data about Orks being popular as Englishman suggests. I just wish he could provide some actual statistics since he demands it of others.
All this strawmanning. How quaint. Where did I demand any statistics of anyone? I suggested that someone use statistics to make an informed decision as I've repeated two or three times already in this thread. Is this really so hard to understand or do you just flat ignore things that don't suit your rhetoric. Wait, I know the answer to this.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
Yep, you are right, let's look at all the various models that Orks have received in 2015, 2016 and 2017 too! That will be better than just 9 month.
Since you are more familiar with this than me, surely you can tell me which one where released in that time period. To be honest I don't recall any though. Literally just the index, which means less than what Sisters got in that time period, since they had both Canonness Veridian and Saint Celestine.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
That doesn't help your point, as others have mentioned.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
Yep, you are right, let's look at all the various models that Orks have received in 2015, 2016 and 2017 too! That will be better than just 9 month.
Since you are more familiar with this than me, surely you can tell me which one where released in that time period. To be honest I don't recall any though. Literally just the index, which means less than what Sisters got in that time period, since they had both Canonness Veridian and Saint Celestine.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
That doesn't help your point, as others have mentioned.
Dude can't accept he plays a faction that a lot of people like but no one plays.
Orkz were outnumbered MASSIVELY by Necrons at LVO and there's an absolutely 0% chance it was due to rules.
The hard fact is Orks don't get releases because there's no market for them and no one will buy them, even if a bunch of people say 'Oh, I love orkz i'd totally play them if they had better plastics, but then they come out and no one buys any. Just look at the wazzdakka jet thing.
Meanwhile Celestine and Veridian come out and sell MASSIVELY. Veridian sold out her production runs every 3 days for nearly 6 months.
Numbers don't lie, sorry AAE. An orc releases would be bad for the game and a massive mistake for GW as a company. If they really want to come out with kits that'll sell well, they should be coming out with SoB.
ERJAK wrote: Dude can't accept he plays a faction that a lot of people like but no one plays.
Orkz were outnumbered MASSIVELY by Necrons at LVO and there's an absolutely 0% chance it was due to rules.
The hard fact is Orks don't get releases because there's no market for them and no one will buy them, even if a bunch of people say 'Oh, I love orkz i'd totally play them if they had better plastics, but then they come out and no one buys any. Just look at the wazzdakka jet thing.
Meanwhile Celestine and Veridian come out and sell MASSIVELY. Veridian sold out her production runs every 3 days for nearly 6 months.
Numbers don't lie, sorry AAE. An orc releases would be bad for the game and a massive mistake for GW as a company. If they really want to come out with kits that'll sell well, they should be coming out with SoB.
It's sad, actually. I have a ton of unpainted Orks and have bought like 4 armies off people over the years.
Feels like everyone is waiting for a decent set of rules, they haven't had them since 5th edition. Rules drive sales, I say that because I used to help a friend manage his local FLGS. People would come in buying entire armies of Tau and Eldar in 6th edition after the Codexes came out. They would bring in netlists and I would help them pick all the models they needed to do it. I would often help them assemble the models and undercoat them so they could play that day (and loan them store painted minis if we had to order some, which happened often.)
That never happened with Space Marines, Chaos, Tyrannids, IG, or other armies. People would buy individual models for those armies, especially new ones, but never a whole army. Only Tau and Eldar, and only when they had great rulesets.
I know people are talking about June as the release date for an Ork codex. Really hoping they get their due and we start to see some decent Ork armies. I really love the faction and believe they would sell a lot of kit. It's not going to happen unless the Codex is great.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: You did use the wrong your, so...
Edit: Also, maybe just tone it down a little. Grammar issues or no, you are being quite condescending.
So what? That somehow invalidates all my points? I don't think so. I find that quite a few of you are being condescending also. Guess you get back what you give, huh?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yep, you are right, let's look at all the various models that Orks have received in 2015, 2016 and 2017 too! That will be better than just 9 month.
Since you are more familiar with this than me, surely you can tell me which one where released in that time period. To be honest I don't recall any though. Literally just the index, which means less than what Sisters got in that time period, since they had both Canonness Veridian and Saint Celestine.
New Mek, New Meganobz and Big Mek in Mega Armour, New SAG Big Mek, New Painboy, New Flashgitz, New Mork/Gorkanaut. You missed all them huh? Weird. There was a pretty big deal made of it. There might be more too, those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
That doesn't help your point, as others have mentioned.
No, others have strawmanned and taken my point completely out of context. As you have also repeatedly done.
ERJAK wrote: Dude can't accept he plays a faction that a lot of people like but no one plays.
Orkz were outnumbered MASSIVELY by Necrons at LVO and there's an absolutely 0% chance it was due to rules.
Any evidence to back up either of these (wrong) statements?
ERJAK wrote: The hard fact is Orks don't get releases because there's no market for them and no one will buy them, even if a bunch of people say 'Oh, I love orkz i'd totally play them if they had better plastics, but then they come out and no one buys any. Just look at the wazzdakka jet thing.
Meanwhile Celestine and Veridian come out and sell MASSIVELY. Veridian sold out her production runs every 3 days for nearly 6 months.
Numbers don't lie, sorry AAE. An orc releases would be bad for the game and a massive mistake for GW as a company. If they really want to come out with kits that'll sell well, they should be coming out with SoB.
Any evidence for how well Veridian and Celestine sold? Wasn't Celestine bundled with the first ever loyalist Primarch to be released? I'm sure that had nothing to do with the kit selling out though, right?
With regards releases, please see response above. You're right that numbers don't lie though and look at that, even despite a relatively big Ork release GW is going better than ever now! Crazy huh? Might be time to milk that sweet cash-Ork again (by releasing more models). With a K. Never a C.
Any evidence for how well Veridian and Celestine sold? Wasn't Celestine bundled with the first ever loyalist Primarch to be released? I'm sure that had nothing to do with the kit selling out though, right?
Any evidence for how well Veridian and Celestine sold? Wasn't Celestine bundled with the first ever loyalist Primarch to be released? I'm sure that had nothing to do with the kit selling out though, right?
she was bundled with Cawl and Greyfax.
Right you are. My mistake.
Amishprn86 wrote: Veridian is sold like once every 6 months (no joke, i had to wait 5 months for mine).
We cant know if its b.c many players bought them, or if they made low amounts when they did make them.
It's impossible to estimate a faction's popularity based on how much it's played.
A large portion of people buy minis and never play them. Another large portion only plays with a small group of friends at their homes, and you never hear about them. And yet another portion of people have multiple armies, and only play the one that has the best rules at the moment.
In other words, the models you see on the table are a tiny, non representative fraction of what is sold.
The only way to have reliable information is to have access to sale numbers. Maybe some local shops provide these numbers (I haven't looked for that), but GW certainly doesn't. And quite many kits (including most of the SoB range for instance) are direct only, so there's no way to get any information on that. So I think it's pointless to argue over factions popularity.
An Actual Englishman wrote: New Mek, New Meganobz and Big Mek in Mega Armour, New SAG Big Mek, New Painboy, New Flashgitz, New Mork/Gorkanaut. You missed all them huh? Weird. There was a pretty big deal made of it. There might be more too, those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm really sorry, I apparently used some pretty unreliable source to check date.
See, I wanted to check things out before I asked you, and the only source on release date that I could find was on this Warseer thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?297915-Games-Workshop-40K-Release-Timeline-(Mk-II) Sadly it stopped at July 2016.
But it does list the new Mek at June 2014, the new Meganobz at July 2014, the new Big Mek in Mega Armour as July 2014, the new Shokk Attak Gun Big Mek as June 2014, the new Painboy as June 2014, the new Flashgitz as June 2014, the new Mork/Gorkanaut as June 2014.
Thanks for correcting me. Just out of curiosity though, as I am not 100% certain, are all those dates on Warseer wrong, or are Orks so popular that all those models got a second new release since then? And don't forget to contact Tymell on Warseer to help him correct the dates, or add in the date for the second version of all those models .
Anyway, pretty nice to see that Orks aren't actually so unpopular that they got zero new release in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018, except for the Index. That was pretty sad, showed how noone was interested in playing them…
Where can I find some actual data about LVO? I somehow get this feeling that having access to those could lead to some pretty hilarious exchanges.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I found one.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/40k-lvo-faction-breakdown.html There was indeed more Necron players than Ork players. And the thing is: the numbers are massively skewed in Orks favor because it only takes the primary detachment faction into account, while Sisters are often taken as allies (see, Celestine).
It wasn't “just the top 100” either because the numbers add up to 382.
Wow.
Orkz were outnumbered MASSIVELY by Necrons at LVO and there's an absolutely 0% chance it was due to rules.
The hard fact is Orks don't get releases because there's no market for them and no one will buy them, even if a bunch of people say 'Oh, I love orkz i'd totally play them if they had better plastics, but then they come out and no one buys any. Just look at the wazzdakka jet thing.
The problem with orks at tournaments is that usually conversions and scratch built stuff aren't allowed. And the majority of the orks players collected them mostly for that reason, to have an highly customized army.
An ork army with only official models is extremely expensive, they still have the index, they're one-dimensional and slow to play at competitive levels, and they don't received a new release since 2014 other than a new sprue added to an already existing kit. These are the reasons why you don't see many orks lists in tournaments, but they are way more common than necrons.
It is interesting that Orks and Sisters seem to at least share some similar problems. I know quite a few Sisters players who are using third-party models and are using scratch-built stuff(often using third-party solutions). To have a completely legal SoB army(that only have an index) is extremely expensive.
Regarding which is more common(Orks or Necrons) it is hard to say. I think quite a few people have Orks lying around thanks to the 5th edition Starter(that's how I got my Ork army started besides the 2nd edition box many moons ago), but Necrons have also been deceptively popular as they aren't prohibitively expensive to collect and for an average player they are a breeze to paint(know a lot of people who collect them solely for that reason).
Ultimately fresus is right. We would need actual GW sales data to really know anything. Everything else is just conjecture or anecdotal evidence. Hell, if I were to use anecdotal evidence I could easily claim there are more Sisters players where I live than Orks.
Just for extra reference, here is a list of factions that got new releases in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 : - Space Marines (ex: lots, no further details needed) - CWE (ex: Autarch, Windriders, Farseer/Warlock Skyrunner, new Ynnari subfaction, new Harlequin subfaction) - Tau (ex: KV128 Stormsurge, XV95 Ghostkeel, Ethereal, Fire Warriors) - Chaos demon (ex: Skarbrand, new Bloodthirster, new Tzeentch daemons, new Nurgle daemons, ...) - Chaos Space Marines (ex: Dark Apostle, two subfactions, ...) - Imperial Guard (ex: Techpriest Enginseer) - Tyranids (ex: Broodlord, genestealer cult subfaction) - Sisters of Battle (Veridian, Celestine) - Inquisition (Inquisitor Greyfax) - Genestealer cult (whole faction) - Adeptus Mechanicus (whole faction) - Custodes (whole faction) - Sisters of Silence (whole faction) - Assassins (whole faction) - Knights (whole faction) - Ynnari (whole faction) - Harlequin (whole faction)
The only two factions that I see missing here are Dark Eldars (but to be honest they could use the models from two new subfactions, Ynnari and Harlequins), and Orks. So of course before An Actual Englishman corrected me on the release date of the Gorknaut and co., I thought that this was irrefutable and definite proof that orks were really THE least popular army in the game, as evidenced by GW releases. Thanks to his correction I know it's not the case, that's a relief.
An Actual Englishman wrote: What makes you think there are more IG, AdMech or Custodes players that Orks? Orks were second in popularity only to SM at one point.
Obviously if that wasn't the case, GW would be releasing codices and new models for Orks!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't begrudge Sisters new models, I disagree with those pigheaded people who try to claim that they are incredibly popular (just unloved by GW ) despite a metric gakton of evidence to the contrary.
Totally unlike Orks of course, which *really for realz* are popular, much more so than AdMech or Custodes but also *really for realz* are just unloved by GW, hence the later getting new models and codexes .
1. You trying to claim that codex release schedule or even model release schedule over an 9 month period has any relevance on popularity is laughable.
2. Maybe look at any statistical evidence afforded to you? Like the number of [faction x] players at a tournament compared to [faction y] players?
LVO top 100 had 3 sisters players, 5 ork players.
Also 1 deathwatch player, 1 necron player, 2 admech players, 2 space wolf players, and 2 dark angels players.
What this statistical evidence is telling me is that sisters are clearly more popular than all the above listed factions and therefore should be updated. Right? it couldn't have any relation to the competitiveness of the faction? there are just 20 times as many Eldar players as Necron players, right?
An Actual Englishman wrote: New Mek, New Meganobz and Big Mek in Mega Armour, New SAG Big Mek, New Painboy, New Flashgitz, New Mork/Gorkanaut. You missed all them huh? Weird. There was a pretty big deal made of it. There might be more too, those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm really sorry, I apparently used some pretty unreliable source to check date.
See, I wanted to check things out before I asked you, and the only source on release date that I could find was on this Warseer thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?297915-Games-Workshop-40K-Release-Timeline-(Mk-II) Sadly it stopped at July 2016.
But it does list the new Mek at June 2014, the new Meganobz at July 2014, the new Big Mek in Mega Armour as July 2014, the new Shokk Attak Gun Big Mek as June 2014, the new Painboy as June 2014, the new Flashgitz as June 2014, the new Mork/Gorkanaut as June 2014.
Thanks for correcting me. Just out of curiosity though, as I am not 100% certain, are all those dates on Warseer wrong, or are Orks so popular that all those models got a second new release since then? And don't forget to contact Tymell on Warseer to help him correct the dates, or add in the date for the second version of all those models .
Anyway, pretty nice to see that Orks aren't actually so unpopular that they got zero new release in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018, except for the Index. That was pretty sad, showed how noone was interested in playing them…
Where can I find some actual data about LVO? I somehow get this feeling that having access to those could lead to some pretty hilarious exchanges.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I found one.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/40k-lvo-faction-breakdown.html There was indeed more Necron players than Ork players. And the thing is: the numbers are massively skewed in Orks favor because it only takes the primary detachment faction into account, while Sisters are often taken as allies (see, Celestine).
It wasn't “just the top 100” either because the numbers add up to 382.
Wow.
Here's a question: How did 7 people make Eldar Corsairs armies?
Eldar Corsairs, unless I'm remembering wrong, physically cannot take any detachment and can only exist in pure "aeldari" detachments. They are 2 troop choices and 1 FA choice.
the_scotsman wrote: Here's a question: How did 7 people make Eldar Corsairs armies?
Eldar Corsairs, unless I'm remembering wrong, physically cannot take any detachment and can only exist in pure "aeldari" detachments. They are 2 troop choices and 1 FA choice.
These are last year's LVO results. In 7th, corsairs had HQs. Sadly they lost most of their options (they actually only kept the ones for which FW sells conversion kits).
Basically, from the perspective of a T'au player, our viability ought to come down to stratagem. Tau have succeeded thus far in lore and on the tabletop through clever strategy and we'll executed manuvers. This is represented in 8th with stratagems. Coupled with a point decrease on heavy support so we can fill force charts without hamstringing ourselves, it would allow us to play in the manner envisioned. For example, we would be slightly less efficient in a points per wound ranking than the guard, so if we stood and shot like they would (the extent of their strategy) we should lose. But if we could employ stratagems that said, if we moved with our vehicles, we could fire at a stationary vehicle more effectively and had resistances against being shot, basically the strategy it would make sense to employ against a line of tanks. If the guard player failed to adapt and charged forward with his "strategy" of stand and shoot, we would win through a change in tactics. It'd be very tau like, reasonably strong to be able to adapt to your opponents, and make us a whole lot less of a one trick army that performs it's trick poorly.
Amishprn86 wrote: Veridian is sold like once every 6 months (no joke, i had to wait 5 months for mine).
Indeed mine took some time to be able to purchase. Of course it might also help if GW could have been bothered to give her some rules in the Index, you know give us more than one HQ choice other than St C.
An Actual Englishman wrote: New Mek, New Meganobz and Big Mek in Mega Armour, New SAG Big Mek, New Painboy, New Flashgitz, New Mork/Gorkanaut. You missed all them huh? Weird. There was a pretty big deal made of it. There might be more too, those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm really sorry, I apparently used some pretty unreliable source to check date.
See, I wanted to check things out before I asked you, and the only source on release date that I could find was on this Warseer thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?297915-Games-Workshop-40K-Release-Timeline-(Mk-II) Sadly it stopped at July 2016.
But it does list the new Mek at June 2014, the new Meganobz at July 2014, the new Big Mek in Mega Armour as July 2014, the new Shokk Attak Gun Big Mek as June 2014, the new Painboy as June 2014, the new Flashgitz as June 2014, the new Mork/Gorkanaut as June 2014.
Thanks for correcting me. Just out of curiosity though, as I am not 100% certain, are all those dates on Warseer wrong, or are Orks so popular that all those models got a second new release since then? And don't forget to contact Tymell on Warseer to help him correct the dates, or add in the date for the second version of all those models .
Anyway, pretty nice to see that Orks aren't actually so unpopular that they got zero new release in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018, except for the Index. That was pretty sad, showed how noone was interested in playing them…
Where can I find some actual data about LVO? I somehow get this feeling that having access to those could lead to some pretty hilarious exchanges.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I found one.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/40k-lvo-faction-breakdown.html There was indeed more Necron players than Ork players. And the thing is: the numbers are massively skewed in Orks favor because it only takes the primary detachment faction into account, while Sisters are often taken as allies (see, Celestine).
It wasn't “just the top 100” either because the numbers add up to 382.
Wow.
Remind me how many new releases did Sisters get between 2014 and now?
We also had Mek Gunz by the way
Obviously Sisters are more popular though right, I mean, it's not like their entire range hasn't been updated apart from 3 models since the 90s. Oh, wait.
Are you honestly trying to argue that not seeing releases for the last 3 and a half years is the same as not seeing releases for over a decade?! Really?! Man this is a new level. I salute your blind ignorance to reason.
Why are you arguing a metric you suggested was completely unreliable to determine popularity? Seems pretty idiotic and pointless?
Edit - aaaand it's not even current data, it is outdated and from 7th when Orks were, unquestionably one of the least competitive armies in the game.
Edit 2 - those who are saying that we have no sales data to back up the argument are absolutely correct. We have no idea how many units of any model GW has sold. We have no idea if certain models or ranges are more profitable than others. The only thing, the only thing we have to inform our ideas of which factions are more popular than others are the actions of GW. We can assume that they follow the money. Look at which factions GW have invested in since the game was released and it should give you an idea about which are most popular. A very rough idea, but an idea based on logic and sense rather than emotion.
You do seem to be ignoring the increasingly circular logic that GW have applied.
Tunnel Vision The vast majority of focus - rules, advertising, models is based around a single faction- Marines.
Strangely enough they sell more than other things - so GW increase the focus, and reduce resources spent on other factions and make more.............. Marines, focussing on them even more and weirdly enough some factions that are not even present in the store fail to sell.
Occasionally they make new models for other factions or even shock horror update an entire faction - Dark elder and weirdly they sell well, but then go back to Marines.
Sisters
St Celestine is very popular - great model, great rules, She sells very well. That is undeniable. Veridyan has no special rules and a finecast model, yet she regularly sells out and GW keep making more, GW Managers I spoke to said that management were shocked how well she sells - its just heresay but interesting.
Sisters currently have great rules BUT massively expensive models that can only be obtained via the main website, so not on the shelves or often the games tables - so much less chance of discount and less incentive for GW store owners to promote them.
"not" sisters models sell well for other companies.
I think simply dismissing them as something that would never sell ignores all of the above?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So if you think Imperium players have it so much better, why don't you just switch to some Imperium army? It's going to be the last time you have to start a new army!
Because I don't like how you look?
Imperium players are never forced to start from scratch , not never start a new army.
I'm sorry that you feel this way, but given how extreme the shifts can be for "Imperium" stuff?
Yeah, it might as well be starting from scratch. With 7th edition if I wanted to field my Guard, I was expected to also have Allied units like Knights, Inquisitors, whatever flavor of Marine was "in" that month, Priests, etc etc just to be competitive.
You claim that "Imperium players" are never forced to start from scratch--and hey, maybe that's true. But I don't know people who collect things strictly as "Imperium".
Sisters currently have great rules BUT massively expensive models that can only be obtained via the main website, so not on the shelves or often the games tables - so much less chance of discount and less incentive for GW store owners to promote them.
They might not be on the shelves, but they are able to be ordered from GW shops themselves so the store managers are more than happy to promote them to you if you're actually interested in buying them.
More often than not though, they don't promote them because people piss and moan about metal or the prices of the models.
Dude can't accept he plays a faction that a lot of people like but no one plays.
Orkz were outnumbered MASSIVELY by Necrons at LVO and there's an absolutely 0% chance it was due to rules.
The hard fact is Orks don't get releases because there's no market for them and no one will buy them, even if a bunch of people say 'Oh, I love orkz i'd totally play them if they had better plastics, but then they come out and no one buys any. Just look at the wazzdakka jet thing.
Meanwhile Celestine and Veridian come out and sell MASSIVELY. Veridian sold out her production runs every 3 days for nearly 6 months.
Numbers don't lie, sorry AAE. An orc releases would be bad for the game and a massive mistake for GW as a company. If they really want to come out with kits that'll sell well, they should be coming out with SoB.
You're making a lot of assumptions there with pretty much no data at all.
Mr Morden wrote: You do seem to be ignoring the increasingly circular logic that GW have applied.
Tunnel Vision The vast majority of focus - rules, advertising, models is based around a single faction- Marines.
Strangely enough they sell more than other things - so GW increase the focus, and reduce resources spent on other factions and make more.............. Marines, focussing on them even more and weirdly enough some factions that are not even present in the store fail to sell.
Occasionally they make new models for other factions or even shock horror update an entire faction - Dark elder and weirdly they sell well, but then go back to Marines.
Sisters
St Celestine is very popular - great model, great rules, She sells very well. That is undeniable. Veridyan has no special rules and a finecast model, yet she regularly sells out and GW keep making more, GW Managers I spoke to said that management were shocked how well she sells - its just heresay but interesting.
Sisters currently have great rules BUT massively expensive models that can only be obtained via the main website, so not on the shelves or often the games tables - so much less chance of discount and less incentive for GW store owners to promote them.
"not" sisters models sell well for other companies.
I think simply dismissing them as something that would never sell ignores all of the above?
The circular logic is not applied by GW. It is a fallacy created by fans, such as all of us, to explain what is (unfortunately) cold, hard, business practice.
There is no focus on GW on anything except making money. They invest in lines that they believe will make them money. They may be wrong or misguided in their beliefs (about what will make money) but they certainly have more information than any of us here. I don't believe that Sisters are unpopular because I hate them, I honestly don't really care about them, I believe this because of the actions of GW. If they sold they would have been invested in. It's as simple as that.
Now we can argue until we're all blue in the face that GW creates demand for product lines by investing in them and promoting them. To some degree I agree with this too, but again we have nothing in the way of evidence to determine whether an investment has been successful, apart from the actions (again) of GW. I'd assume Knights were successful - they are getting investment in a new product (which is only one model, but for Knights is a big deal because their range is so limited), I'd also assume that Custodes were successful given their recent investment of an entire new line.
Let me make this clear too - I'm not saying anywhere that Sisters (or any other line) would never sell. I don't pretend to have all the information to make such a statement. I can assume based off past experience and the evidence I have at hand, but it is only that - an assumption/educated guess. I could and may well be wrong.
I think it should be fairly clear to anyone with an ounce of sense that Orks are probably more popular than Sisters. The same way we can be sure that marines are more popular than Orks. I'm not dissing Sisters or their players, I'm simply stating what I believe based on what I think is pretty solid logic.
I believe that it's not all bad news for Sisters actually. There is so much noise around them, always, GW almost have to listen. I believe the current Sisters bundle is a market intelligence gathering exercise, personally. I think GW are using it to assess the viability of Sisters. If you are a Sister's player and want new models, your best bet is to keep looking at that bundle, get your friends to look at it (I bet they are counting unique visits to the page) and keep buying models. Play them at their own game, show them there is a market for the product.
Eldarsif wrote: An interesting note is that The Living Crusade(the non-deal battleforce they offer for Sisters) is Temporarily out of stock.
I guess the demand was so little that the models melted in the warehouse.
Or perhaps they took it down because there was a pretty negative reaction to the lack of discount?
Chicken and egg scenario. I would start collecting sisters in a heartbeat if they were plastic, and priced like plastic. $100 for 1 full squad of battle sisters is too much. I'd even be willing to operate as a more difficult white dwarf "codex" user. I don't have infinite expendable income for the hobby, but i do have some expendable income for the hobby.
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
pumaman1 wrote: Chicken and egg scenario. I would start collecting sisters in a heartbeat if they were plastic, and priced like plastic. $100 for 1 full squad of battle sisters is too much. I'd even be willing to operate as a more difficult white dwarf "codex" user. I don't have infinite expendable income for the hobby, but i do have some expendable income for the hobby.
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
No, this isn't the scenario at all. Don't believe all the lies, there was a time when (prepare yourself) all models were metal!!!!111one There was a time when Sisters' models were no more expensive than any other army. Now why do you think they weren't invested in, when every other line was?
pumaman1 wrote: Chicken and egg scenario. I would start collecting sisters in a heartbeat if they were plastic, and priced like plastic. $100 for 1 full squad of battle sisters is too much. I'd even be willing to operate as a more difficult white dwarf "codex" user. I don't have infinite expendable income for the hobby, but i do have some expendable income for the hobby.
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
No, this isn't the scenario at all. Don't believe all the lies, there was a time when (prepare yourself) all models were metal!!!!111one There was a time when Sisters' models were no more expensive than any other army. Now why do you think they weren't invested in, when every other line was?
Because no one was on the team with the company to champion their development.
pumaman1 wrote: Chicken and egg scenario. I would start collecting sisters in a heartbeat if they were plastic, and priced like plastic. $100 for 1 full squad of battle sisters is too much. I'd even be willing to operate as a more difficult white dwarf "codex" user. I don't have infinite expendable income for the hobby, but i do have some expendable income for the hobby.
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
No, this isn't the scenario at all. Don't believe all the lies, there was a time when (prepare yourself) all models were metal!!!!111one There was a time when Sisters' models were no more expensive than any other army. Now why do you think they weren't invested in, when every other line was?
What actually shocked me was that they decided to price the miniatures on a per-model basis. When I was a kid, a Box of Grey Knights (5 metal models) was 45 bucks while a box of Sisters (10 metal models) was also 45 bucks. Repentia too (came in a box of 10). Plastic Terminators of the time were 60 bucks a box. The interesting thing is the blister pack of 3 SoBs didn't change. If anything the hiking of the prices is more likely due to GW (at the time) thinking they were losing money. Which I wouldn't put it past them since this was the Kirby Era.
One of my deepest regrets is not getting SoBs before.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Because no one was on the team with the company to champion their development.
I genuinely don't understand what this means?
Their development is championed by the respective expected money that GW believes it will make from the range.
as someone who works in a company, there is one crucial thing that has to happen when a project is being evaluated: Someone on the team has to care about it.
Corporations chase money, yes, but they do so through myriad projects, which do not all have massive financial horsepower. The goal would be to improve the management and "sellability" of a given project so that it does become a significant source of financial horsepower. The only times this doesn't happen, in my experience, fall into two cases: 1) Either the project in question is written off as a failure OR 2) No one cares about it.
In case 1), the project is terminated. My company (and most companies) will not produce a product in which there is no profit. Man hours and materials have better places to be. Since Sisters have not been updated but also not been terminated, then there is option 2): no one cares.
Now, all of this is only true if you take the "corporations only follow money" standpoint, which you seem to have adopted, AAE.
EnTyme wrote: I'm curious as to why this has become such a personal crusade for you, AAE.
It's not a personal crusade by any stretch, I like having interesting discussions around topics related to the hobby. The thing with this particular topic is that there is this bizarre fallacy that Sisters are and have always been, some hidden goldmine that GW doesn't know about or doesn't respect, or doesn't love or whatever. I mean, they might be more popular now given the changing dynamic of the market in recent times, but historically there can be no dispute that they weren't the most popular and likely were the least (except for Squats, obviously).
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
No, this isn't the scenario at all. Don't believe all the lies, there was a time when (prepare yourself) all models were metal!!!!111one There was a time when Sisters' models were no more expensive than any other army. Now why do you think they weren't invested in, when every other line was?
Hmm... It was never meant to be a REAL army, and if you set it last in rotation to be reworked, as it was your most recent release, and you make other factions rules better so WAAC buy the cheesiest release, and editions change, and then you chase those cheese sales, and never make it back to sisters, and editions change, repeat... no wonder they don't sell.
BUT this is emphasized more that there are plastic minis where are a.. "Value" .. (vomit) that even more scares newer players (I started later 6th) away in the cost risk if the hobby doesn't work out. Going $200 deep into a starter army in plastic or $500 deep into a metal only, no other options at all, can't even play non-optimal plastic/cheaper models. Painting is worse. It is whats stopping me, and others i know (Anecdotal evidence being what it is)
Unit1126PLL wrote: Because no one was on the team with the company to champion their development.
I genuinely don't understand what this means?
Their development is championed by the respective expected money that GW believes it will make from the range.
as someone who works in a company, there is one crucial thing that has to happen when a project is being evaluated: Someone on the team has to care about it.
Corporations chase money, yes, but they do so through myriad projects, which do not all have massive financial horsepower. The goal would be to improve the management and "sellability" of a given project so that it does become a significant source of financial horsepower. The only times this doesn't happen, in my experience, fall into two cases:
1) Either the project in question is written off as a failure
OR
2) No one cares about it.
In case 1), the project is terminated. My company (and most companies) will not produce a product in which there is no profit. Man hours and materials have better places to be. Since Sisters have not been updated but also not been terminated, then there is option 2): no one cares.
Now, all of this is only true if you take the "corporations only follow money" standpoint, which you seem to have adopted, AAE.
Right so if not one single person in a company that created Warhammer 40k cares about Sisters, what does that tell you about their popularity? Aren't you proving my point?
Squats where Squated by copyright issues just like MALAL the fifth God of Chaos.
And Unit1226PLL is right. GW works very much by what the guys in the studio like. Read any interview with their past designers.
Zoats. Do you know Zoats? The centaur like aliens that were devoured by Tyranids? They were designed by a directive guy. Everyone hated how they look, but they maked them just because that directive guy wanted to push his own race.
Marketing, etc... can enforce designers to work in something if its a gold mine (Like Custodes). But if no one really cares about a faction, then no one will champion about it.
Alan Blight for example, was the guy that make HH happen. If not for him, I doubt HH would have become the big thing it did become.
And AAE, I wouldn't be so fast to say that SoB aren't popular because nobody in the studio care about them. Do you know what other faction nobody care about in the studio? Orks. Thats why they have had so bad rules all this past editions.
EnTyme wrote: I'm curious as to why this has become such a personal crusade for you, AAE.
It's not a personal crusade by any stretch, I like having interesting discussions around topics related to the hobby. The thing with this particular topic is that there is this bizarre fallacy that Sisters are and have always been, some hidden goldmine that GW doesn't know about or doesn't respect, or doesn't love or whatever. I mean, they might be more popular now given the changing dynamic of the market in recent times, but historically there can be no dispute that they weren't the most popular and likely were the least (except for Squats, obviously).
And harlequins, and Zoats, and genestealer cult, and arbites, and necromunda, and blood bowl, and admech, and BFG, and all the other side/flavor armies that were dropped by GW in the middle editions of the game while the sisters line remained in print, mentioned occasionally in fluff, and given rules updates.
The argument here is not that sisters WERE a hidden/unexploited gold mine for GW, but that they currently are now given the success of so many other throwback projects theyve undertaken recently (they even brought the freaking squats back in all but name for AOS).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Because no one was on the team with the company to champion their development.
I genuinely don't understand what this means?
Their development is championed by the respective expected money that GW believes it will make from the range.
as someone who works in a company, there is one crucial thing that has to happen when a project is being evaluated: Someone on the team has to care about it.
Corporations chase money, yes, but they do so through myriad projects, which do not all have massive financial horsepower. The goal would be to improve the management and "sellability" of a given project so that it does become a significant source of financial horsepower. The only times this doesn't happen, in my experience, fall into two cases:
1) Either the project in question is written off as a failure
OR
2) No one cares about it.
In case 1), the project is terminated. My company (and most companies) will not produce a product in which there is no profit. Man hours and materials have better places to be. Since Sisters have not been updated but also not been terminated, then there is option 2): no one cares.
Now, all of this is only true if you take the "corporations only follow money" standpoint, which you seem to have adopted, AAE.
Right so if not one single person in a company that created Warhammer 40k cares about Sisters, what does that tell you about their popularity? Aren't you proving my point?
It's not just one person in the company. It's gotta be one of the games designers, which are like 6 people in the case of 40k. So unless your point was "Games Workshop's 40k Games Designers aren't enthusiastic about Sisters.", then I don't see how it helps.
I thought your point was that they couldn't make any money by releasing plastic sisters. If that is, in fact, your point, then no, this doesn't help that at all.
Galas wrote: Squats where Squated by copyright issues just like MALAL the fifth God of Chaos.
And Unit1226PLL is right. GW works very much by what the guys in the studio like. Read any interview with their past designers.
Zoats. Do you know Zoats? The centaur like aliens that were devoured by Tyranids? They were designed by a directive guy. Everyone hated how they look, but they maked them just because that directive guy wanted to push his own race.
Marketing, etc... can enforce designers to work in something if its a gold mine (Like Custodes). But if no one really cares about a faction, then no one will champion about it.
Alan Blight for example, was the guy that make HH happen. If not for him, I doubt HH would have become the big thing it did become.
And AAE, I wouldn't be so fast to say that SoB aren't popular because nobody in the studio care about them. Do you know what other faction nobody care about in the studio? Orks. Thats why they have had so bad rules all this past editions.
Squats were squatted because they weren't popular. If GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races?
GW might work "very much by what the guys in the studio like", but make no mistake their directive is also (and I would suggest more) driven by money.
I didn't say "SoB aren't popular because nobody in the studio cares about them". My claim is that all reasonable evidence, including their popularity within the studio, including the fact that they haven't been updated in years, including all available evidence to us indicates that they aren't popular. I agree Orks don't have a champion in the studio. But I believe there are plenty of players. Which is why we get support with new models.
And I disagree with your claim, because you have provided zero evidence to back it up.
I would, however, agree with the far more limited claim: "SoB aren't cared about by the studio enough to update them."
And yeah, sure, you get support with new models. So do SoB, obviously, unless you think Canoness Veridyan and St. Celestine don't count for some unfathomable reason.
Ynnari's soulburst mechanic is very jarring - but interesting all the same. I'm glad it got toned down, I'd like to see them fix some other shenanigans with craft world strategems and whatnot being mixed in.
The only Ynnari I have tried was a gak ton of reaver jetbikes and the yncarn proxy model (because I hate the actual model). It was funny and gun, with reavers being so overcosted but still speedy enough to enjoy all the shenanigans.
Galas wrote: Squats where Squated by copyright issues just like MALAL the fifth God of Chaos.
And Unit1226PLL is right. GW works very much by what the guys in the studio like. Read any interview with their past designers.
Zoats. Do you know Zoats? The centaur like aliens that were devoured by Tyranids? They were designed by a directive guy. Everyone hated how they look, but they maked them just because that directive guy wanted to push his own race.
Marketing, etc... can enforce designers to work in something if its a gold mine (Like Custodes). But if no one really cares about a faction, then no one will champion about it.
Alan Blight for example, was the guy that make HH happen. If not for him, I doubt HH would have become the big thing it did become.
And AAE, I wouldn't be so fast to say that SoB aren't popular because nobody in the studio care about them. Do you know what other faction nobody care about in the studio? Orks. Thats why they have had so bad rules all this past editions.
Squats were squatted because they weren't popular. If GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races?
GW might work "very much by what the guys in the studio like", but make no mistake their directive is also (and I would suggest more) driven by money.
I didn't say "SoB aren't popular because nobody in the studio cares about them". My claim is that all reasonable evidence, including their popularity within the studio, including the fact that they haven't been updated in years, including all available evidence to us indicates that they aren't popular. I agree Orks don't have a champion in the studio. But I believe there are plenty of players. Which is why we get support with new models.
As the time of being squatted, they where as popular as Imperial Guard and Space Marines. The guy in the studio that did the Squats was the one that did Malal, and the concept of those both entities in the warhammer universe was of him, not GW, just as the copyright. Thats why since then everything GW's staff does, its copyrighted under GW umbrella.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Are you honestly trying to argue that not seeing releases for the last 3 and a half years is the same as not seeing releases for over a decade?!
I'm sorry, are we evaluating popularity now, or ten years ago?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Edit 2 - those who are saying that we have no sales data to back up the argument are absolutely correct. We have no idea how many units of any model GW has sold. We have no idea if certain models or ranges are more profitable than others. The only thing, the only thing we have to inform our ideas of which factions are more popular than others are the actions of GW. We can assume that they follow the money. Look at which factions GW have invested in since the game was released and it should give you an idea about which are most popular. A very rough idea, but an idea based on logic and sense rather than emotion.
So Orks are literally the least popular, lately.
By your own metrics.
But suddenly that logic don't apply when it shows Ork are not popular because, whatever magic glasses you are wearing.
I call that "your blind ignorance to reason".
Keep pushing about how Sisters were not popular during 2nd edition when most of us didn't play 40k, because the GW of that time (which was WAAAAAAAAY less corporate) didn't invest in them. That only tells us about their popularity then, not their popularity now. Now they are getting more releases than Orks and that is a literal fact.
Can we agree that all old miniatures would sell some if they got redone in new plastic models?(Including ork buggies, finecast aspect warriors, that one BA character, and SoB troops). I think that individually updating one or two old kits for each army over the course of the year would be a safe move for GW. Maybe this year isn’t a good year to remake all of the armies, especially since we’re getting new Custodes and a ton of codices, but a few models like the Cryptek to be released regularly could go a long way towards keeping everything current without addressing the popularity of armies.
If it was done in plastic and decently priced*. I would rather shell out 50 bucks (and did) for 10 of the old metal Kasrkins than 84 for 10 of the new scions.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Are you honestly trying to argue that not seeing releases for the last 3 and a half years is the same as not seeing releases for over a decade?!
I'm sorry, are we evaluating popularity now, or ten years ago?
Hmm maybe there's a link between one and the other? Maybe popularity now is directly linked to popularity ten or even twenty years ago?! Both.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Edit 2 - those who are saying that we have no sales data to back up the argument are absolutely correct. We have no idea how many units of any model GW has sold. We have no idea if certain models or ranges are more profitable than others. The only thing, the only thing we have to inform our ideas of which factions are more popular than others are the actions of GW. We can assume that they follow the money. Look at which factions GW have invested in since the game was released and it should give you an idea about which are most popular. A very rough idea, but an idea based on logic and sense rather than emotion.
So Orks are literally the least popular, lately. By your own metrics. But suddenly that logic don't apply when it shows Ork are not popular because, whatever magic glasses you are wearing. I call that "your blind ignorance to reason".
No? Because we had MASSIVE MODEL RELEASES AND SUPPORT LESS THAN 5 YEARS AGO.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Keep pushing about how Sisters were not popular during 2nd edition when most of us didn't play 40k, because the GW of that time (which was WAAAAAAAAY less corporate) didn't invest in them. That only tells us about their popularity then, not their popularity now. Now they are getting more releases than Orks and that is a literal fact.
No it is not a "literal fact". It is a garbage fallacy cooked up by a salty person online. The fact is that Sisters have had Celestine, Geminae and Veridian and Orks have had A METRIC TON MORE models in the last 4 years. Your dubious selection of a date post 2014 is not only blatantly obvious but also massively telling that you have no sensible argument.
I guess when all logic fails.
Unit1126PLL wrote: And I disagree with your claim, because you have provided zero evidence to back it up.
I would, however, agree with the far more limited claim: "SoB aren't cared about by the studio enough to update them."
And yeah, sure, you get support with new models. So do SoB, obviously, unless you think Canoness Veridyan and St. Celestine don't count for some unfathomable reason.
3 models is the same level of support as the massive range that I mentioned earlier for Orks? Really?
I told you earlier I don't have any evidence, only reasoned assumptions based on logic and some fact (the actions of GW).
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: If it was done in plastic and decently priced*. I would rather shell out 50 bucks (and did) for 10 of the old metal Kasrkins than 84 for 10 of the new scions.
Old Kasrkin were some of the best IG sculpts ever made. The new stuff is junk in comparison.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: If it was done in plastic and decently priced*. I would rather shell out 50 bucks (and did) for 10 of the old metal Kasrkins than 84 for 10 of the new scions.
Old Kasrkin were some of the best IG sculpts ever made. The new stuff is junk in comparison.
I would dare say that if Vostroyans didn't exist, they would be the undisputed bestIG models ever made. Even better than the valk or (dare I say) baneblade.
Galas wrote: As the time of being squatted, they where as popular as Imperial Guard and Space Marines. The guy in the studio that did the Squats was the one that did Malal, and the concept of those both entities in the warhammer universe was of him, not GW, just as the copyright. Thats why since then everything GW's staff does, its copyrighted under GW umbrella.
Not convinced that they were as popular as Space Marines or IG. Source?
Again - if GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races? If they were so popular why didn't GW do this?
Galas wrote: As the time of being squatted, they where as popular as Imperial Guard and Space Marines. The guy in the studio that did the Squats was the one that did Malal, and the concept of those both entities in the warhammer universe was of him, not GW, just as the copyright. Thats why since then everything GW's staff does, its copyrighted under GW umbrella.
Not convinced that they were as popular as Space Marines or IG. Source?
Again - if GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races? If they were so popular why didn't GW do this?
Thats not... how copyright works.
And, Jervis Johnson, in a post in 2004 about why Squats where Squatted.
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
Galas wrote: As the time of being squatted, they where as popular as Imperial Guard and Space Marines. The guy in the studio that did the Squats was the one that did Malal, and the concept of those both entities in the warhammer universe was of him, not GW, just as the copyright. Thats why since then everything GW's staff does, its copyrighted under GW umbrella.
Not convinced that they were as popular as Space Marines or IG. Source?
Again - if GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races? If they were so popular why didn't GW do this?
Thats not... how copyright works.
And, Jervis Johnson, in a post in 2004 about why Squats where Squatted.
Spoiler:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
Nowhere does it mention sales relative to SM or IG?
It's exactly how copyright works, GW have literally just done the exact thing in AOS with Orruks, Aelves etc etc etc
Galas wrote: As the time of being squatted, they where as popular as Imperial Guard and Space Marines. The guy in the studio that did the Squats was the one that did Malal, and the concept of those both entities in the warhammer universe was of him, not GW, just as the copyright. Thats why since then everything GW's staff does, its copyrighted under GW umbrella.
Not convinced that they were as popular as Space Marines or IG. Source?
Again - if GW wanted to keep them you don't think they'd have changed the name to get around copyright issues? Call them Squits or something? Like they have with fantasy races? If they were so popular why didn't GW do this?
Thats not... how copyright works.
And, Jervis Johnson, in a post in 2004 about why Squats where Squatted.
Spoiler:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
Nowhere does it mention sales relative to SM or IG?
It's exactly how copyright works, GW have literally just done the exact thing in AOS with Orruks, Aelves etc etc etc
Copyright can also include design, likeness, merchandising etc. If they had only changed the name, they would be at risk of being sued, so they wouldn't either way if they didn't have the rights to the design and likeness of the faction, and had only lost the rights to the names.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Maybe popularity now is directly linked to popularity ten or even twenty years ago?!
Then how do you explain stuff like Cult Genestealers being completely discontinued and then entirely revived as a plastic line? Where they discontinued despite being popular then, or where they revived despite not being popular now, or what's your deal on this? You can't logic that out, right?
AND THEN WERE NEGLECTED UNTIL LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION GOT SOMETHING NEW! NOT ONE FACTION, NOT TWO FACTIONS, NOT ALL MAJOR FACTIONS, LITERALLY ALL FACTIONS! MANY OF THOSE FACTIONS DIDN'T EVEN EXISTS BEFORE THE LAST ORK RELEASE! I can play game of caps lock just as well as you do.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Your dubious selection of a date post 2014 is not only blatantly obvious but also massively telling that you have no sensible argument.
Sorry we started this with post 8th edition but that was not good enough for you, you said too short time period. I just went back in time until literally all other factions had some release and I found no ork releases in the meantime, that's all. But we can look at just from 2016 to now if you want.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I told you earlier I don't have any evidence, only reasoned assumptions based on logic and some fact (the actions of GW).
And as I told you earlier the facts (the actions of GW) support Orks being the least popular faction of 40k at the moment, since every other factions got something first and multiple factions go several waves of release.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It's exactly how copyright works, GW have literally just done the exact thing in AOS with Orruks, Aelves etc etc etc
So what you are saying is that GW has renamed the Orcs and Elves of AoS because they feared that someone else, who holds the copyright of Orcs and Elves, was going to sue them? It's an entirely different to change name so that you can copyright something and to change name so you can avoid being sued for copyright infringement. That, along with the many other factual errors you made (about Celestine being released with a Primarch, about the date of Ork releases, …) is making it harder and harder to take you seriously. It's okay to be wrong, nobody's perfect. It's not okay to condescendingly and smugly contradict others when you are wrong. Stop being so emotional, and please look rationally at the facts. Don't be afraid to check them rather than guess them too!
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would dare say that if Vostroyans didn't exist, they would be the undisputed bestIG models ever made. Even better than the valk or (dare I say) baneblade.
B-but what about the Attilan Riders? Surely those were the best IG models ever made!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Then how do you explain stuff like Cult Genestealers being completely discontinued and then entirely revived as a plastic line?
Where they discontinued despite being popular then, or where they revived despite not being popular now, or what's your deal on this?
You can't logic that out, right?
Yea I can. It's quite simple actually, even a child could provide you with an answer. GW is taking a risk. They believe the market has changed and GSC are now viable as a stand alone product.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: AND THEN WERE NEGLECTED UNTIL LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION GOT SOMETHING NEW! NOT ONE FACTION, NOT TWO FACTIONS, NOT ALL MAJOR FACTIONS, LITERALLY ALL FACTIONS! MANY OF THOSE FACTIONS DIDN'T EVEN EXISTS BEFORE THE LAST ORK RELEASE!
I can play game of caps lock just as well as you do.
And what does this prove? I'd rather have the ton of models we got in 2014 over the 1 or 2 models other factions got after. You are measuring popularity literally by how recent the last release for a faction is? Are you really that simple? Incredible.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Sorry we started this with post 8th edition but that was not good enough for you, you said too short time period. I just went back in time until literally all other factions had some release and I found no ork releases in the meantime, that's all. But we can look at just from 2016 to now if you want.
No, you picked a very specific date to suit your (incredibly weak) argument. Nice try. Then you try to claim that a single Inquisitor model is somehow better than a heavy support, and 5 or 6 elite releases. OK then. If your argument is "Orks haven't had a release since 2014 lololol but every other faction has had something your argument is garbage.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: And as I told you earlier the facts (the actions of GW) support Orks being the least popular faction of 40k at the moment, since every other factions got something first and multiple factions go several waves of release.
Wrong, again :( For a start other factions didn't get anything "first", they got things "more recently". Tell me how many factions had more models than the Orks received in 2014? That might help you with your (lack of) reasoning. Why don't we look at the total number of Ork releases since 40k was released and compare it to another faction to see if that helps you with your bizarre lack of logic?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So what you are saying is that GW has renamed the Orcs and Elves of AoS because they feared that someone else, who holds the copyright of Orcs and Elves, was going to sue them?
It's an entirely different to change name so that you can copyright something and to change name so you can avoid being sued for copyright infringement.
No? There you go with your wild assumptions again. They renamed them to protect their own assets, I presume.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: That, along with the many other factual errors you made (about Celestine being released with a Primarch, about the date of Ork releases, …) is making it harder and harder to take you seriously.
It's okay to be wrong, nobody's perfect.
It's not okay to condescendingly and smugly contradict others when you are wrong.
Stop being so emotional, and please look rationally at the facts. Don't be afraid to check them rather than guess them too!
Irony, thy name is Oxayotl. Glad to see you return to strawmanning though, it really highlights that you have no coherent or viable argument.
I just notice that the topic of this thread was the three army books announced at LVO, Dark Eldar, Tau, and Necrons. Neither Orks nor Sister of Battle are on that list.
If I remember correctly the Squats were...well Squatted.... not because of low sales or a lack of push by the company. It was simply because they, at the time, wanted to push 40k in a more grim and serious direction and little dorfs on bikes with flashy guns didn't have much room for them to go for. The whole "they weren't selling well" was a rumor that cropped up on the boards that just refused to die, mainly because GW was rather ashamed of getting rid of the squats, but for a completely different reason and was misconstrued as the sales being low. The main push for it to be more "serious" was because of the constant joke that 40k was "Warhammer IN SPACE" and they started trimming the fat from things that were a little too on the nose about it.
EnTyme wrote: I just notice that the topic of this thread was the three army books announced at LVO, Dark Eldar, Tau, and Necrons. Neither Orks nor Sister of Battle are on that list.
EnTyme wrote: I just notice that the topic of this thread was the three army books announced at LVO, Dark Eldar, Tau, and Necrons. Neither Orks nor Sister of Battle are on that list.
EnTyme wrote: I just notice that the topic of this thread was the three army books announced at LVO, Dark Eldar, Tau, and Necrons. Neither Orks nor Sister of Battle are on that list.
A relevant observation! Please let's keep the conversation to the announced codices/releases. Threads on what SHOULD have been announced (ahem, no bias here, no sir) can be its own topic in 40k General Discussion. Many thanks!
fe40k wrote: If every faction got the same love Space Marines had; there'd be a separate codex for each Craftworld/Klan/Hive Fleet/Regiment/other sub-faction.
But instead, there's a single codex for each of these non-SM releases. Is it too much to ask for each other faction to get the same amount of love?
Also, Orks are popular, you gitz.
Only a non-boy would even think about arguing otherwise.
Except for the Salamanders
And Raven Guard
And Imperial fists
And the lost and damned
._.
I think you meant the legion of the damned because the Lost and the damned is the name for the non-marine mortal chaos faction (and they deserve to be more fleshed out, there is so much more to chaos than just marines and daemons).
I think you meant the legion of the damned because the Lost and the damned is the name for the non-marine mortal chaos faction (and they deserve to be more fleshed out, there is so much more to chaos than just marines and daemons).
pumaman1 wrote: Chicken and egg scenario. I would start collecting sisters in a heartbeat if they were plastic, and priced like plastic. $100 for 1 full squad of battle sisters is too much. I'd even be willing to operate as a more difficult white dwarf "codex" user. I don't have infinite expendable income for the hobby, but i do have some expendable income for the hobby.
I'd like to start an imperium army, I'd like for it to be sisters, but i have to be ok knowing i am spending 2-3x more to start that faction than the majority of others.
No, this isn't the scenario at all. Don't believe all the lies, there was a time when (prepare yourself) all models were metal!!!!111one There was a time when Sisters' models were no more expensive than any other army. Now why do you think they weren't invested in, when every other line was?
THose metals have been keeping going up and you know just because people bought metal when there wasn't option for better doesn't mean they buy when there are.
You also assume sells=automatically new releases which is false. While common GW kills entire lines even when they outsells their own exceptations by 400% after green lighting them in the first place. There's tons of reasons. Like nobody in studio having much interest.
And certainly it's hard line to sell when GW makes it very hard for players to buy with metal, incomplete line at ridiculously high prices with less than stellar rules. They are designed to not sell so not selling much is hardly proof new SoB wouldn't sell.
More on topic, I'm really eager to see what they're going to do with DE's subfactions.
It seems obvious that there will be kabal traits that give a bonus to each unit from this kabal (just like any other codex). But then, what happens when you mix your kabalite units with wych cult units? At the very least, I suppose adding non-kabalite units (that are still Drukhari) won't prevent you from getting your kabal's trait. And similarly, there will be wych cult and covens traits.
But will a mixed kabalite/wych cult detachment be able to benefit from both a kabalite and a wych cult traits, or only one of the two will apply? That's going to affect army composition quite a lot.
fresus wrote: More on topic, I'm really eager to see what they're going to do with DE's subfactions.
It seems obvious that there will be kabal traits that give a bonus to each unit from this kabal (just like any other codex). But then, what happens when you mix your kabalite units with wych cult units? At the very least, I suppose adding non-kabalite units (that are still Drukhari) won't prevent you from getting your kabal's trait. And similarly, there will be wych cult and covens traits.
But will a mixed kabalite/wych cult detachment be able to benefit from both a kabalite and a wych cult traits, or only one of the two will apply? That's going to affect army composition quite a lot.
Based on how it operates for the other factions I'd have guessed that they'll do one of three things;
1. Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens will all have their own subfaction trait. This would mean that a mixed Kabal/Wych Cult would invalidate the trait and a detachment would have to be pure Kabal, Wych Cult or whatever to benefit from it. If this is the case I reckon there'll be 2 Kabals, 2 Wych Cults and 2 Covens to pick from, maybe 3 at a push.
2. Units will be able to take Wych Cult x or Coven x regardless of their type. In other words non-Wych units could take a Wych Cult sub faction keyword.
3. There will be overarching Sub Factions that span over Kabals, Wych Cults and Covens so there's no problem mixing and matching units from either to get the benefit.
fresus wrote: More on topic, I'm really eager to see what they're going to do with DE's subfactions.
It seems obvious that there will be kabal traits that give a bonus to each unit from this kabal (just like any other codex). But then, what happens when you mix your kabalite units with wych cult units? At the very least, I suppose adding non-kabalite units (that are still Drukhari) won't prevent you from getting your kabal's trait. And similarly, there will be wych cult and covens traits.
But will a mixed kabalite/wych cult detachment be able to benefit from both a kabalite and a wych cult traits, or only one of the two will apply? That's going to affect army composition quite a lot.
I do hope they don't split Drukhari too much up as I do enjoy having a mixed army.
Sadly I doubt we'll see a plastic release with the Drukhari which means we still won't get plastic Grotesques. Seriously, it would do so much for Drukhari Covens if those things were plastic.
Also, I really hope they address the cost of reaver jetbikes.
fresus wrote: More on topic, I'm really eager to see what they're going to do with DE's subfactions. It seems obvious that there will be kabal traits that give a bonus to each unit from this kabal (just like any other codex). But then, what happens when you mix your kabalite units with wych cult units? At the very least, I suppose adding non-kabalite units (that are still Drukhari) won't prevent you from getting your kabal's trait. And similarly, there will be wych cult and covens traits. But will a mixed kabalite/wych cult detachment be able to benefit from both a kabalite and a wych cult traits, or only one of the two will apply? That's going to affect army composition quite a lot.
I do hope they don't split Drukhari too much up as I do enjoy having a mixed army.
Sadly I doubt we'll see a plastic release with the Drukhari which means we still won't get plastic Grotesques. Seriously, it would do so much for Drukhari Covens if those things were plastic.
Also, I really hope they address the cost of reaver jetbikes.
Why don't you just convert ogres / ogryn? I mean, a grotesque is a big ugly mutant thing. Ogres are big and ugly, and with a bit of greenstuff you can probably make them look like horrible mutated experiments.
I actually started DE mostly because I loved converting coven stuff. Converting stuff is my favorite thing about 40k.
I wouldn't collected lots of grots or talos if I had to buy the original (and expensive) models. I converted ogres into grotesques and stormfiends into talos.
fresus wrote: More on topic, I'm really eager to see what they're going to do with DE's subfactions.
It seems obvious that there will be kabal traits that give a bonus to each unit from this kabal (just like any other codex). But then, what happens when you mix your kabalite units with wych cult units? At the very least, I suppose adding non-kabalite units (that are still Drukhari) won't prevent you from getting your kabal's trait. And similarly, there will be wych cult and covens traits.
But will a mixed kabalite/wych cult detachment be able to benefit from both a kabalite and a wych cult traits, or only one of the two will apply? That's going to affect army composition quite a lot.
I do hope they don't split Drukhari too much up as I do enjoy having a mixed army.
Sadly I doubt we'll see a plastic release with the Drukhari which means we still won't get plastic Grotesques. Seriously, it would do so much for Drukhari Covens if those things were plastic.
Also, I really hope they address the cost of reaver jetbikes.
Why don't you just convert ogres / ogryn? I mean, a grotesque is a big ugly mutant thing. Ogres are big and ugly, and with a bit of greenstuff you can probably make them look like horrible mutated experiments.
As much as I do enjoy converting I also like to have at least one unit of "legal" GW in case if I attend official events.
On a sidenote I have found Everblight Warspears to be much more optimal when it comes to converting to Grotesques. Got sold on those after seeing this person's work:
Those suggested conversions should be perfectly legal though since they're 100% GW plastic with a little green stuff (that could also be a GW product) added on them.
Blackie wrote: Those suggested conversions should be perfectly legal though since they're 100% GW plastic with a little green stuff (that could also be a GW product) added on them.
Not the Everblight Conversions since they are taken from Warmahordes :(
). If the March Necron release rumour is accurate then it could be Tau - Dark Elves - Necron - Dark Eldar.
