As for deep striking drop pod armies bad news that drop pods suck big time in 8th ed. Way too expensive. Better off having native deep strikers(optimally something like militarum tempestus allies)
You might want to pick up a rulebook for missions, detachmants, etc. But you can push some models around with just that.
There were enough changes in the units that you want a codex. We haven’t seen a change like this since 2nd turned into 3rd.
Drop pods got nerfed pretty hard. Not just as a unit, but normal deep strike changed in a way to make them mostly redundant. All reserves come in no scatter when you want, which was one of the reasons to take pods. That and transport dreads and cents, but they can’t ride in them anymore. All DS has to be 9” away from enemies, which really hurts dropping melta, and more importantly, flamers. They can still work in a more friendly environment. Sternguard and close range Devs can get some milage out of them. A few other tricks as well. But the heyday of the drop pod is over.
I hate having to get rid of old codexes! So much work goes into them and then bam they're junk..
Painting only it is then!
I’ve got a shelf of rulebooks and codexes stretching back to the RT era. Sometimes I refer to the old ones for fluff/painting or for historical reference. But a lot of time they are dead weight. While I’d rather spend more money on minis, which can be used regardless of edition changes, some investment in books is needed. The average length of an edition is 4ish years. If you consider the investment in rules over the time you can use them, it’s not that bad. Unless you need a number of codexes to play the list you want, or GW does something like 6th edition again (short life for an edition). It’s like paying a subscription fee of $4-5 a month to play, just frontloaded in one lump sum.
I’m cheap, and hate doing it. But it’s part of the cost of the hobby.
Corennus wrote: I don't have a group currently. i'm in kind of a black hole as far as local games groups go.
Sorry to hear that. Painting up a nice looking army is it's own reward. Mid-5th edition through early 6th I swore off playing until I had a full army painted up. That was time well spent IMO.
A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
Drop pods are actually really cool models when painted.
I have a drop pod that I keep out on my desk, that is fully painted. It's one of the models in this game that really lends itself well to being painted, and i think overall just looks iconic and neat.
From a gameplay perspective, they flat out suck. You could argue they are situational, but in reality you could make that argument for every single unit in this game. There is a situation or circumstance where everything can have a use. It will be ridiculously contrived and will never come up, but it can be done.
If you find yourself playing games and you want to get mileage out of a drop pod, I would recommend getting a squad of sternguard vets. If you're into magnetizing, you can have quite a few options for these guys, so as the space marine codex sees buffs over the coming updates (which they will), you could swap out for whatever is the new hotness.
As far as buying the codex goes - I wouldn't bother. There are numerous free list building tools online, and with the frequency of updates to points (with chapter approved, yearly updates, FAQ, errata, designers commentary, et al), your book ultimately because worthless anyway. Games Workshop should realize that digital automatically updating content is where its at. Until they do, I wouldn't buy any of their books. We're kind of hoping they realize that a subscription to the rules, for like $50 a year, unlocking ALL data for ALL armies, as well as the list building app, would be the way to go (for example).
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
Something I often do with my Pods is pack multiple units in there. Relying on stratagems to do that doesn't get you very far. But the list I'm gunning for now includes a 8-10 unit drop (including the three pods).
Off the top of my head I'm not aware of a infiltrate/outflank stratagem for marines other than the Raven Guard one, actually.
Buy the index. it's a $25.00 paper back that gives you just the datasheets for every model that existed when 8th launched. You can put your models on the table and play a game with the free 8 page rules.
If you like the way 8th plays buy the codex and get the super special rules, chapter tactics, warlord traits, psychic powers, relics and gak with it.
I recommend the codex just for the warlord traits, strategems and relics. In general the new 8th edition codices are much better designed and and easy to use. I would hate to rely on Battle Scribe. Plus you'll need it if you decide to play in tournaments.
Corennus wrote: i'm going to have to research 8th edition it seems. don't want to shell out loads of money for it though...
Try to find a FLGS with a demo army. Get a feel for it before you invest in it. I live within 40 minutes (weekend traffic) of about 5 shops that all host tournaments regularly. Every single one has an owner or staff that would happily demo a game to anyone. Strongly recommend if you're getting started.
And the game is dramatically different from 7e. It's actually quite fun.
If you want to build a "play army," and you're going Marines, a foot-slogging / drop podding infantry army will get stomped fairly effortlessly by even casual lists.
Corennus wrote: i know HOW to play 40k. apart from the nitty gritty changes from 7th. it's the army list and new prices for units i need to get
No, you don't understand how much has changed.
There are no more USRs. There is no more tables to cross reference. WS is not something you compare and check a chart it works like BS. You Advance (run) as part of your movement in the movement phase. There are only 5 types of guns, pistol, assault, heavy, grenade, rapid fire. There are no more initiative steps (the whole charge/fight phase has had a drastic overhaul). There is no scatter or templates. Weapons can do multiple damage. There are no more independent characters. Psychic phase works completely different. Morale works completely different. There is no going down. There is no regrouping. There are no unit types. Vehicle facings are gone. AV is gone. The vehicle damage chart is gone. Things with many wounds now have degrading stat lines.
The sheer amount of gak you needed to memorize or cross reference in the BRB is dead.
Corennus wrote: i'm going to have to research 8th edition it seems. don't want to shell out loads of money for it though...
If you want to build a "play army," and you're going Marines, a foot-slogging / drop podding infantry army will get stomped fairly effortlessly by even casual lists.
I play with lots of marines and pods, and have won 80-90% of my games since 8th began.
Corennus wrote: i know HOW to play 40k. apart from the nitty gritty changes from 7th. it's the army list and new prices for units i need to get
No, you don't understand how much has changed.
There are no more USRs. There is no more tables to cross reference. WS is not something you compare and check a chart it works like BS. You Advance (run) as part of your movement in the movement phase. There are only 5 types of guns, pistol, assault, heavy, grenade, rapid fire. There are no more initiative steps (the whole charge/fight phase has had a drastic overhaul). There is no scatter or templates. Weapons can do multiple damage. There are no more independent characters. Psychic phase works completely different. Morale works completely different. There is no going down. There is no regrouping. There are no unit types. Vehicle facings are gone. AV is gone. The vehicle damage chart is gone. Things with many wounds now have degrading stat lines.
The sheer amount of gak you needed to memorize or cross reference in the BRB is dead.
Yes this. A whole new game as far as you would be concerned.
Corennus wrote: i'm going to have to research 8th edition it seems. don't want to shell out loads of money for it though...
If you want to build a "play army," and you're going Marines, a foot-slogging / drop podding infantry army will get stomped fairly effortlessly by even casual lists.
I play with lots of marines and pods, and have won 80-90% of my games since 8th began.
To the original poster: I would take advice like this with a grain of salt. In addition to practice games with your FLGS, also check out some of the batreps posted by miniwargaming. Watch the ones with Matt in them, they're usually better quality and sharper on the rules /strategy.
Corennus wrote: i'm going to have to research 8th edition it seems. don't want to shell out loads of money for it though...
If you want to build a "play army," and you're going Marines, a foot-slogging / drop podding infantry army will get stomped fairly effortlessly by even casual lists.
I play with lots of marines and pods, and have won 80-90% of my games since 8th began.
To the original poster: I would take advice like this with a grain of salt. In addition to practice games with your FLGS, also check out some of the batreps posted by miniwargaming. Watch the ones with Matt in them, they're usually better quality and sharper on the rules /strategy.
YMMV.
Personal anecdote but my all primarus imperial fist foot slogging no deep strike (but one repulsive) army has yet to lose (casually). and this was when people said primarus sucked.
Corennus wrote: i'm going to have to research 8th edition it seems. don't want to shell out loads of money for it though...
If you want to build a "play army," and you're going Marines, a foot-slogging / drop podding infantry army will get stomped fairly effortlessly by even casual lists.
I play with lots of marines and pods, and have won 80-90% of my games since 8th began.
To the original poster: I would take advice like this with a grain of salt. In addition to practice games with your FLGS, also check out some of the batreps posted by miniwargaming. Watch the ones with Matt in them, they're usually better quality and sharper on the rules /strategy.
To the original poster: I would take Marine advice from a Tyranid player with a grain of salt.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
Something I often do with my Pods is pack multiple units in there. Relying on stratagems to do that doesn't get you very far. But the list I'm gunning for now includes a 8-10 unit drop (including the three pods).
Off the top of my head I'm not aware of a infiltrate/outflank stratagem for marines other than the Raven Guard one, actually.
SW have an outflank one, and I've got some pretty good mileage out of it.
I've considered getting a Drop Pod, but I honestly hate the model. It's not only ugly and excessively large, it always also feels like a useless model. Kind of like Fast Movers in DZC, which just sort of sit at the edge of the board and look pretty.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
Something I often do with my Pods is pack multiple units in there. Relying on stratagems to do that doesn't get you very far. But the list I'm gunning for now includes a 8-10 unit drop (including the three pods).
Off the top of my head I'm not aware of a infiltrate/outflank stratagem for marines other than the Raven Guard one, actually.
SW have an outflank one, and I've got some pretty good mileage out of it.
I've considered getting a Drop Pod, but I honestly hate the model. It's not only ugly and excessively large, it always also feels like a useless model. Kind of like Fast Movers in DZC, which just sort of sit at the edge of the board and look pretty.
Ahh that's cool. Space Wolves are kinda their own animal though. ba-dum!
I didn't like the Drop Pod at first, I would have preferred they do the old Epic spherical style. It is big, and transport is a pain, but this has it's benefits sometimes as you can throw down a sizeable wall when you slam them together. I had to commit to them in 6th to be competitive and I rarely play without them now.
Just watch batreps, play test games at an FLGS with the store models, etc. You'll get a feel for how the game plays before you spend one red cent.
There is no need to commit to a tactic, chapter, army, etc until you've seen more of the game. An army is kind of a commitment. Take the time to really explore what you might want. There are a TON of flavors of space marines, and most of them play very differently.
My personal opinion:
Don't go to a GW store. These guys are more about selling models and starter kits than teaching you how to play or showing you what's actually going to work. If they have a backlog of starter kits for one faction, they'll push this on you.
When you settle on a faction, go to the tactics thread and start seeing what people are generally using and discussing about your units. Ask for suggestions there on how to get started.
1d4chan is good for humor and also includes a breakdown for tactics of each faction. If you have never played Dawn of War video games, it's a good opportunity to learn about metal boxes.
Watch miniwargaming batreps. They actually do a very good job of editing and explaining rules. Just make sure to watch the ones with Matt, usually a bit more accuracy and more overall fun to watch.
Ultimately, every single post should come with a "Your mileage may vary" disclaimer. Don't expect to win 90% of your games like some posters boast doing. And anyone who drags ego into a thread trying to convince you of something is ridiculous. "Trust me, i'm sooooo good, I never lose!" Come on.
Ultimately, every single post should come with a "Your mileage may vary" disclaimer. Don't expect to win 90% of your games like some posters boast doing. And anyone who drags ego into a thread trying to convince you of something is ridiculous. "Trust me, i'm sooooo good, I never lose!" Come on.
Obviously the right response to a player saying they prefer units x and y is to say: "Units x and y are garbage and you will lose all your games!". Come on.
I actually lost my last two games. Although arguably one of them was definitely because I didn't bring my pods.
It's hard to give specific advice without knowing a couple things, so I have a couple questions.
1. What colors are they painted in? Your own chapter or are they something named in the lore?
2. What are your goals? Playing competitively? Collecting a sweet looking army and playing occasionally for kicks? Something in between?
3. Do you have the spare bits of the kits used to make your units? aka, do you have the other heavy weapons from the Devastator box, or the weapons from the Tactical boxes, etc. ?
4. What models are you thinking about? Tanks? Bikes? Jump Pack units?
Some of your units have changed actually. The Apothecary and Standard Bearer (now called an Ancient) are stand-alone characters and are Elite choices for Space Marines now.
Chapter Masters are no longer a unit entry either, instead they are a Captain, which you just upgrade at the time of the battle with something called Command Points. That doesn't really change your army though, your model is still totally valid.
Your Terminator Squad is in a rough spot. Terminators come as 5 man units minimum, and it sounds like your 5th is a Librarian (which is cool). There are rules to accommodate sub-minimum sized units, so you can technically field the four Thunder Hammer models as a squad, it's just not ideal. Any reasonable local meta ought to let you run the Librarian as your 5th model though. No need to panic, may as well stick with em and think about what you want to do about it (if anything.) Terminators are in a rough spot these days, they've a very particular unit that's tricky to get use out of.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
If books beeing out of date piss you off, 8th edition is NOT for you. Books and rules are changing at such a break neck pace you will have to have several books, pdfs, and perhaps even a screenshot of a facebook post by GW post to fully have all the current most up to date rules for the game and your army.
Also they are planning on coming out with one book every year that changes all the points in all other books.
This is not an edition for completionist unless you enjoy frustration!
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Drop Pod is definitely still practical, you just now actually have to consider whether or not the unit in question actually needs the ability to deep strike.
It's a question of "why?", not "why not?"
However, I do think that it's probably better to rely on infiltrate/outflank strategems, which are like a pod that costs CP's, but sometimes you don't have enough of those.
Something I often do with my Pods is pack multiple units in there. Relying on stratagems to do that doesn't get you very far. But the list I'm gunning for now includes a 8-10 unit drop (including the three pods).
Off the top of my head I'm not aware of a infiltrate/outflank stratagem for marines other than the Raven Guard one, actually.
SW have an outflank one, and I've got some pretty good mileage out of it.
I've considered getting a Drop Pod, but I honestly hate the model. It's not only ugly and excessively large, it always also feels like a useless model. Kind of like Fast Movers in DZC, which just sort of sit at the edge of the board and look pretty.
Ahh that's cool. Space Wolves are kinda their own animal though. ba-dum!
I didn't like the Drop Pod at first, I would have preferred they do the old Epic spherical style. It is big, and transport is a pain, but this has it's benefits sometimes as you can throw down a sizeable wall when you slam them together. I had to commit to them in 6th to be competitive and I rarely play without them now.
Ha. ha. ha. In all honesty, there's not a whole lot of difference between the different Space Marines, with the exception of the Grey Knights. The one thing I like about being Space Wolves over Vanilla are Wolf Guard. I don't usually like to purchase fancy CQC weapons as I don't think the fairly minor boost in theoretical effectiveness is worth the cost, but I like Storm Bolter + Jump Pack. If they don't have jump packs, they're also ideal targets for the outflank strategem.
Corennus wrote:ok so far I have painted up:
Chapter Master with relic blade power armour and plasma pistol.
Space Marine Captain with Relic Blade
5 Terminators. 4 hammers and Storm Shields. One converted GK Terminator with null stave doubling as librarian with force weapon.
1 Devastator Squuad (5 man)
2 Plasma Cannons 1 Sgt with Signum. 2 marines with bolters.
2 Tac Squads (10 man)
Sgt with Combi-Grav and Chainsword
1 Specialist with Grav Gun
8 Maines with bolters
Command Squad
1 Vet w/ power fist and storm shield
1 Vet Apothecary
1 Vet w/ Company Banner
2 Vets w/ Power Swords & Bolt Pistols
Do you have more unpainted?
Devastators seem pretty good with Lascannons or Missile Launchers [depending on the foe. I prefer Lascannons because I see a lot of T8 tanks.]
I don't like Terminators. Their only really value as far as I can see is the fact that they have natural deep strike, but it comes at a real premium. I have 10 Wolf Guard Terminators, and they see regular use, and they're usually the disappointment in my army. As a rule of thumb, their value is basically just the Assault Cannon, since the Storm Bolters can be more efficiently provided by other units. However, the Assault Cannon can also be more efficient provided by other units, and they have a crippling slowness that has lost me at least one game. They're also not really all that resilient, and even if they were I've found that their resilience isn't a particularly valuable trait in the first place. They don't have scary enough damage output for it to matter.
Lieutenants are pretty good, so I'd consider making some. I'd also consider buying tanks. I've been pleased enough with tank performance, and seen fairly good performance from them all around.
Marmatag wrote: Ultimately, every single post should come with a "Your mileage may vary" disclaimer. Don't expect to win 90% of your games like some posters boast doing. And anyone who drags ego into a thread trying to convince you of something is ridiculous. "Trust me, i'm sooooo good, I never lose!" Come on.
As it so happens I can't claim to have won 90% of my games as Space Wolves. I can claim to have won more than 50%, though, but not more than 75%. Counting lost its novelty after the first 30 games of the edition.
Also, I can second the 1d4chan tactica page. For a place that's such a festering hive of scum and villany, 4chan does produce decent tactica pages.
Well I think either my "Chapter Master" or "Captain" could double as a Lieutenant..
The Terminators.........well I got them cause at the time they were going to be a Librarius Conclave in terminator armour.
So i'm open to suggestions. I still like a terminator librarian though!
They are painted in my own chapter colours. Cream (Pallid Wych Flesh) with a wash of Imperial Primer and a red cross as chapter livery.
So they can play any rules they want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing. I really really really really really don't want to get units i have no interest in.
For example i'm not so interested in making an army of 20 of the same tank cause it's so effective in tournaments.
i'm more interested in balanced and ever so (alot) fluffy lists that i can take time painting and enjoying.
Since you went with your own paint scheme and you're not looking to kill at tournaments you're in an ideal spot from a collecting perspective. I started my current marine army in much the same way and have stayed true to "the vision" for the most part, and not collecting models I didn't want. The current army I run sounds similar to your idea of "footsloggers and Drop Pods". I've mostly used some combination of Tacticals, Scouts, Devastators, Sternguard/Veterans and Drop Pods with occasional Rhinos for the last three editions of the game. It took me a while to get a handle on it from a play perspective but it's served me well.
Yes, you're good from a Captain/Lieutenant place.
Honestly I think it would be pretty rad if you did all your Terminators up as Librarians. That could look amazing when finished, and it's a cool theme. It also solves your odd-number-of-Terminators problem.
IMO the Devaststors kit is amazing, as it comes with loads of Heavy Weapon options if that's your thing. Most of my army is just Devastator and Tactical boxes, I just put a little extra bling on them to make Veterans/Sternguard, etc.
You may want to look at Primaris models, depending on your taste. I think the models are great but I also think they look weird next to the regular marines. Also, they can't use Drop Pods or Rhinos/Razorbacks which makes them a little awkward. Not bad as a unit though.
If swarms of powered armor guys is your thing though, I've got a couple pics you might be into. The first two are from 7th Ed. I think. The last one is a crazy game I played two weeks ago.
Chapter Master with relic blade power armour and plasma pistol.
Space Marine Captain with Relic Blade
5 Terminators. 4 hammers and Storm Shields. One converted GK Terminator with null stave doubling as librarian with force weapon.
1 Devastator Squuad (5 man) 2 Plasma Cannons 1 Sgt with Signum. 2 marines with bolters.
2 Tac Squads (10 man) Sgt with Combi-Grav and Chainsword 1 Specialist with Grav Gun 8 Maines with bolters
Command Squad
1 Vet w/ power fist and storm shield 1 Vet Apothecary 1 Vet w/ Company Banner 2 Vets w/ Power Swords & Bolt Pistols
So, i'm not going to tell you what i would buy next, i'm going to tell you how i'd attack your list.
You have no mobility. Once your stuff hits the table, you're foot slogging. Which means i get to dictate the engagements, because i am faster than you are. Deep strike is a gambit. But since much of your list is tied up in deep strike, I will wait you out, because what you have on the table is either (a) low volume of shots, or (b) severely limited in its scope. Should you deep strike charge, it will be what i allow you to. Additionally, I can protect things from you pretty easily since your max range is 36", and it's only on 2 models.
Well I think either my "Chapter Master" or "Captain" could double as a Lieutenant..
The Terminators.........well I got them cause at the time they were going to be a Librarius Conclave in terminator armour.
So i'm open to suggestions. I still like a terminator librarian though!
They are painted in my own chapter colours. Cream (Pallid Wych Flesh) with a wash of Imperial Primer and a red cross as chapter livery.
So they can play any rules they want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing. I really really really really really don't want to get units i have no interest in.
For example i'm not so interested in making an army of 20 of the same tank cause it's so effective in tournaments.
i'm more interested in balanced and ever so (alot) fluffy lists that i can take time painting and enjoying.
Just so you know, a fluffy list could very likely have a pile of a specific tank:
A Space Marine Battle Company contains:
Captain
Lieutenant
Champion
Chaplain
Apothecary
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Assault Squad
Assault Squad
Devastator Squad
Devastator Squad
Dreadnought
Dreadnought
In addition, it would have an indigenous motor pool of Rhino or Razorback transports to mechanize the entire formation, as well as a supply of Bikes and Landspeeders. [As many as are available at least. Units are probably suffering heavily from attrition. As I understand it, Space Marines don't get a lot of time off the front to rest and resupply.]
On a deployment-by-deployment basis, armored support in the form of Vindicators, Predators, Whirlwinds, Hunters, and Stalkers will be attached to the formation as necessary.
So I wouldn't call a list consisting of a dozen instances of a specific tank that mounts twin assault cannons or twin lascannons and carries 6 models and happens to be popular competitively unfluffy. In fact, it's probably more fluffy than otherwise.
Chapter Master with relic blade power armour and plasma pistol.
Space Marine Captain with Relic Blade
5 Terminators. 4 hammers and Storm Shields. One converted GK Terminator with null stave doubling as librarian with force weapon.
1 Devastator Squuad (5 man)
2 Plasma Cannons 1 Sgt with Signum. 2 marines with bolters.
2 Tac Squads (10 man)
Sgt with Combi-Grav and Chainsword
1 Specialist with Grav Gun
8 Maines with bolters
Command Squad
1 Vet w/ power fist and storm shield
1 Vet Apothecary
1 Vet w/ Company Banner
2 Vets w/ Power Swords & Bolt Pistols
So, i'm not going to tell you what i would buy next, i'm going to tell you how i'd attack your list.
You have no mobility. Once your stuff hits the table, you're foot slogging. Which means i get to dictate the engagements, because i am faster than you are. Deep strike is a gambit. But since much of your list is tied up in deep strike, I will wait you out, because what you have on the table is either (a) low volume of shots, or (b) severely limited in its scope. Should you deep strike charge, it will be what i allow you to. Additionally, I can protect things from you pretty easily since your max range is 36", and it's only on 2 models.
Good luck!
Yes, but that's not saying a lot.
It's not so much a list as it is the very beginning of a collection. There's nothing there to be an army. It has no substance.
At this point, you can pretty much buy whatever you want to evolve your collection however you see fit. If you have a tactical vision you want to make work, then we can probably help. I'm pretty okay at marines, and I'm sure others have helpful advice beyond "Marines suck, go play GuardEldar". Something to think about, is that your list is tremendously deficient in antitank weapons. You might want to look into that.
I'll look into maybe getting some more models with anti-tank.
Devastators and Predators are both decent antitank options. Hellblasters seem to be popular for the task too, but I haven't been all that impressed with their performance.
1. Venerable Dreadnoughts are super cool. It's a really nice kit and paints very easily.
2. Land raiders are cool looking. They're colossal transports that can have a variety of weapons on the sides. If you're playing casually, they have a "build your own landraider!" section in CA which might be fun to play with. These guys should probably be magnetized when it comes to the sponsons, so you can try out all the different options. A plus side, too, is that your terminators can ride inside.
3. Maybe consider grabbing an iconic hero for whatever chapter you feel like playing. Typically they have 1 configuration and no options, so you can't build them wrong, and they're generally really good at *something* on the table.
Oh i forgot so far I have 2 multi-meltas in my tac squads.
I think what i'm going to do is save up for the new Marine codex and just pick and choose what I buy and paint. Above all I want an army that is fluffy as well as usable.
I don't "mind" losing with a fluffy army if it's a close contest.
Another reason I like footslogging armies instead of loads of vehicles is logistics.
You can fit a good 2000 points of marines into one big carry case. You can't fit 2000 points of vehicles into anything less than a big big box.
I've always liked Salamanders, but not the colour green...
Automatically Appended Next Post: no not yet.
In fact i'm really kind of railing against this whole Primaris thing.
I'm a fiction freak so i'm just imagining some poor marine who's toiled and toiled and done magnificent deeds to finally be elevated to the First Company and then on to be considered for Terminator Honours....
And then a marine turns up who's bigger, stronger, faster, and hasn't done anything to earn it other than be part of a new breed.
It makes a mockery of the First Company.
Automatically Appended Next Post: hmm well i was pondering a full company back in 7th ed. it's what got me starting collecting again
Back then my list was:
Captain
Command Squad (No longer exists?)
6 Tac Squads w/ Multi Melta. Combi-Grav on Sgt and Chainsword. Grav Gun. Drop pod
2 Assault Squads w/ Jump Packs, Flamers, Power Fist on Sgts
2 Dev Squads w/ Plasma Cannons x 2 Lascannons x 2
Chaplain w/ Auspex
2 Dreadnoughts w/ Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer in Drop Pods
But Drop Pods are bloody expensive (£££) and bulky and not easy to get hold of at local store.
Multimeltas unfortunately suffer from two major issues, the first is limited range, the second is their strength is 8 compared to the 9 of the Lascannon. However, if you're using the Salamanders rule you have an advantage in the fact you can re-roll to wound with them, and against most targets the Strength 8 vs. Strength 9 won't make a difference. So you might be ok there. The range is the kicker though, you may wind up feeling restricted on the board because you'll have trouble reaching long shots with them, which will hurt your ability to coordinate fire. The Melta AP -4 is pretty sweet, I have to say.
If you take a "counts as" Vulkan He'stan you get nice bonuses for nearby Meltas. If anyone was going to do well with Multimeltas, it's Salamanders.
If you buy the Devastator box you'll have loads of heavy weapons to mess around with anyways.
Command Squads exist, they're just called "Company Veterans" now, as the characters have been split off. Still a good box to get, as you get the parts for an Ancient, Apothecary, Champion and some bits that help make a fine Lieutenant.
Drop Pods are great but they are a pain to carry and store. Rhinos/Razorbacks pack up much easier.
Sadly, Dreadnoughts do not get to ride in Drop Pods anymore.
When you get your codex you'll find that Grav guns are taking a back seat to Plasma Guns this edition, you may want to adjust accordingly. Grav Cannons are still great though.
I don't "mind" losing with a fluffy army if it's a close contest.
Maybe play some games of 8th before you commit yourself to purchasing more stuff. In a general sense, a player with a good list has a significant advantage over a player with an unoptimized list.
Well I just got another Tac Squad. Because whatever else happens you always need more Tac Squads!
But now i'm stuck as to what i equip sgt special and heavy with.
The box comes with missile launcher...which is a good all rounder. but I have a spare lascannon......
Personally i've never put lascannons on tac squads because it's a waste of their versatility.
If only tac boxes came with multi-melta too!
Insectum7 wrote: Multimeltas unfortunately suffer from two major issues, the first is limited range, the second is their strength is 8 compared to the 9 of the Lascannon. However, if you're using the Salamanders rule you have an advantage in the fact you can re-roll to wound with them, and against most targets the Strength 8 vs. Strength 9 won't make a difference. So you might be ok there. The range is the kicker though, you may wind up feeling restricted on the board because you'll have trouble reaching long shots with them, which will hurt your ability to coordinate fire. The Melta AP -4 is pretty sweet, I have to say.
The range is the real killer. Within 12" multi-melta kicks lascannon against any vehicle with 3+ or better save(well infantry too provided it has 3+ save and plenty of wounds). Problem is getting within 12". Without suffering from -1 to hit from moving and shooting...
Plus price. Wasn't multi-melta most expensive gun?
Corennus wrote: It;s why Multi-Melta is good straight out of a drop pod.
Yeah multi-melta is about only reason I could see using drop pod but doesn't that still incure -1 to hit which still makes it less efficient than lascannon apart from adding nearly 100 pts tax to the weapon.
Corennus wrote: with Salamanders rule it becomes really quite good IMO.
So so far I have:
Captain
Chaplain
3 Tac Squads: 2 with multi-melta grav gun and combi-grav
1 with lascannon plasma gun and combi-plas.
5 Terminators (can be converted to Custodes or dakka terminators)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm loathe to buy loads of vehicles. I'd rather use terrain to advantage.
He'stan, Tacticals with Meltaguns / Combi-Meltas, Lt & Captains with Thunder Hammer & Combi-Melta or Combi-Flamer (not as useful as the Melta one though), Hammer&Shield Terminators are my go-to's as a Salamander player. Well, and Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Flamers, I used Baneblade sponson flamers to build the THFs.
Rule of thumb: if it has a hammer, a flamer or a melta it's good stuff. But anything infantry/dreadnought based with 1-2 shots per unit works well, basically. There're few things that don't work in the SM Codex - the only thing (outside of obviously stupid equipment choices) that really doesn't work is the Vindicator if you're not planning on bringing three.
Some of the FW stuff isn't great either, but as a marine beginner you should avoid FW anyway - there're tons of awesome things in the GW range, save the money.
*edit*
oh, and a quick hint for HQs: Vanguard and Sternguard boxes have a ton of options and make great Captains/Lieutnants. One box each gives you tons of gear.
that's just the thing. Im not a beginner. I've been playing since at least 2010 but i come and go from it.
I started with 5th Edition. Got really into Grey Knights, then lost interest and gave my models away cause couldn't keep up with gaming and everything else in life.
Then looked into 7th edition and started thinking about collecting.........and now here I am again.
Corennus wrote: Well I just got another Tac Squad. Because whatever else happens you always need more Tac Squads!
But now i'm stuck as to what i equip sgt special and heavy with.
The box comes with missile launcher...which is a good all rounder. but I have a spare lascannon......
Personally i've never put lascannons on tac squads because it's a waste of their versatility.
If only tac boxes came with multi-melta too!
Missiles or Lascannons is where it's at. You really don't want Multimetlas.
Tactical squads just sit in the back and plink at things with their heavy weapon, for the most part. They'll do far more for their cost sitting on an objective taking shots with only a Lascannon than they ever will trying to run up-board with a Multimelta.
Sitting at the back with heavy weapons is dakka dread or devastator job. Tactical squads are for advancing and gaining objectives surely
Tacticals also sit at the back, that's why they have a heavy weapon. Advancing up the board is for units that are actually good at it.
If you want guys to move up the board on foot, I'd recommend Intercessors. The added range and AP of their bolt rifles will make a difference, and your heavy weapon isn't going to be performing anywhere near value if you're running all over the place with it.
If you want guys to move up the board in transports, I'd recommend Sternguard. 5 can ride a Razorback, and 10 can ride a Drop Pod, bringing a pretty nasty pile of special weapons to bear.
If you want a unit that's cheap and takes up space, I'd recommend Scouts. They get to deploy in the no-man's land, which will block deep strikers, outflankers, and vanguards.
You select Tactical Squads over Scouts or Intercessors because you desire the heavy weapon they bring.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I don't run them up the board. I drop them in with drop pod!
Don't, It's a waste of the points spent on the pod. Assuming you've doubled-up tactical units in the Pod, and they're fully loaded with Melta, you've spend 222 points on the Tacticals and 85 points on the Pod to get 4 melta shots, 2 of which are hitting on 4's, and all of which are almost certainly not getting the melta bonus against anything worthwhile. That's over 300 points to accomplish very little.
If you want a drop unit, use Sternguard. 10 Sternguard in a pod backed by a Captain and Lieutenant is a much more powerful unit and get much more value out of the Pod.
Sitting at the back with heavy weapons is dakka dread or devastator job. Tactical squads are for advancing and gaining objectives surely
Well either you equip your Tactical Squad with a Heavy Weapon and deploy them defensively on your objectives, sniping with their Lascannon or Missile Launcher (anything else lacks range), or you put them in a transport and give them a set of matching combi- and special weapon. I'd suggest Plasma or Melta since Flamers are really underwhelming to me - especially the Combiflamer is kind of a waste considering it's usually D6+1 hits while a stormbolter is roughly 3 hits, but MUCH cheaper. And it's out of range if you use Drop Pods.
Corennus wrote: when I used to use transports i'd have melta and multi-melta out the hatch of a rhino.
The problem with loads of transports is :
(Real World)
Budget
Logistics (carrying them all!)
WH 40 World:
Loads of things can take out or immobilise a rhino.
Land Raiders are too expensive points wise
Automatically Appended Next Post: have considered strormravens etc but theyre ultra £££ in terms of money AND points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do like sternguard. Always have....
You should really read up on what 8th edition does differently. Especially transports and vehicles were changed massively. And a Razorback isn't really expensive, it's 2 euros cheaper than a tactical squad. And for logistics.. They're boxes without many details that could break. Just stack them in a bigger box? Drop pods are harder to transport I'd say.
Sitting at the back with heavy weapons is dakka dread or devastator job. Tactical squads are for advancing and gaining objectives surely
Tacticals also sit at the back, that's why they have a heavy weapon. Advancing up the board is for units that are actually good at it.
If you want guys to move up the board on foot, I'd recommend Intercessors. The added range and AP of their bolt rifles will make a difference, and your heavy weapon isn't going to be performing anywhere near value if you're running all over the place with it.
If you want guys to move up the board in transports, I'd recommend Sternguard. 5 can ride a Razorback, and 10 can ride a Drop Pod, bringing a pretty nasty pile of special weapons to bear.
If you want a unit that's cheap and takes up space, I'd recommend Scouts. They get to deploy in the no-man's land, which will block deep strikers, outflankers, and vanguards.
You select Tactical Squads over Scouts or Intercessors because you desire the heavy weapon they bring.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I don't run them up the board. I drop them in with drop pod!
Don't, It's a waste of the points spent on the pod. Assuming you've doubled-up tactical units in the Pod, and they're fully loaded with Melta, you've spend 222 points on the Tacticals and 85 points on the Pod to get 4 melta shots, 2 of which are hitting on 4's, and all of which are almost certainly not getting the melta bonus against anything worthwhile. That's over 300 points to accomplish very little.
If you want a drop unit, use Sternguard. 10 Sternguard in a pod backed by a Captain and Lieutenant is a much more powerful unit and get much more value out of the Pod.
Gotta say I disagree with much of this post. Tacticals being used for sniping defensively is often a waste of potential, imo. I'm usually pushing them up alongside everything else to keep the pressure high and the bolters/specials firing to full effect. Tacticals armed right can go toe to toe with Sternguard point-for-point. I like the potential to bring Tacs, Stern and Devastators to the game and dropping whatever combination seems best for the scenario, using combat squads to mix and match further.
In specific response to the scenario posted above, Tacs could drop melta, combi-melta squads instead, saving some points and hitting more. Or if originally bought in 10 man squads, (multimelta, melta, combi-melta)x2, with the other 10 guys advancing to objectives or to meet up with the spearhead or whatever. Not that I usually reccomend Melta, but Salamanders might be an exception if you're also dropping He'stan in another Pod with Devs or something.
...
Some people magnetize their special weapons. I just snap off and reglue alternates mine every once in a while, usually for edition changes.
I can't believe people are suggesting he model guys with multimeltas, or advocating the melta out of a drop pod is even close to a smart idea.
If you get your multi-melta in its ideal range of its ideal target, that's ~4.5 damage expected. Compared to 3.5 from the lascannon, which can function without moving and from 48" away, easily within your reroll bubble. Like there is no argument for the melta right now.
Now, if they were to change lascannons to a flat 3, and change meltas to be 2 outside of melta range, and 5 within melta range, it might be a worthwhile enterprise. In this scenario a melta, even with -1 to hit and wounding on 4s, becomes better than a lascannon against T8, even if the lascannon doesn't move. (Although, this presupposes that you can even get your melta into multi-melta range. Not everyone plays sisters of battle, so it's mostly infeasible.)
Marmatag wrote: I can't believe people are suggesting he model guys with multimeltas, or advocating the melta out of a drop pod is even close to a smart idea.
If you get your multi-melta in its ideal range of its ideal target, that's ~4.5 damage expected. Compared to 3.5 from the lascannon, which can function without moving and from 48" away, easily within your reroll bubble. Like there is no argument for the melta right now.
Now, if they were to change lascannons to a flat 3, and change meltas to be 2 outside of melta range, and 5 within melta range, it might be a worthwhile enterprise. In this scenario a melta, even with -1 to hit and wounding on 4s, becomes better than a lascannon against T8, even if the lascannon doesn't move. (Although, this presupposes that you can even get your melta into multi-melta range. Not everyone plays sisters of battle, so it's mostly infeasible.)
We don't even do multimeltas on anything other than our tanks. Even then, most of us don't even do that because the Immolation Flamer is significantly better for cost.
Marmatag wrote: I can't believe people are suggesting he model guys with multimeltas, or advocating the melta out of a drop pod is even close to a smart idea.
If you get your multi-melta in its ideal range of its ideal target, that's ~4.5 damage expected. Compared to 3.5 from the lascannon, which can function without moving and from 48" away, easily within your reroll bubble. Like there is no argument for the melta right now.
Now, if they were to change lascannons to a flat 3, and change meltas to be 2 outside of melta range, and 5 within melta range, it might be a worthwhile enterprise. In this scenario a melta, even with -1 to hit and wounding on 4s, becomes better than a lascannon against T8, even if the lascannon doesn't move. (Although, this presupposes that you can even get your melta into multi-melta range. Not everyone plays sisters of battle, so it's mostly infeasible.)
I don't think anyone suggested he should grab multimeltas. I think the downsides were pointed out by multiple people. HE keeps insisting on Multimeltas inside of Drop Pods.
If you're playing Salamanders, you can make melta+combi-melta work quite well thanks to the re-rolls, and even better with He'stan. But Multimeltas aren't worth the extra cost and the -1 just hurts too much, as you said.
The only good place for a multimelta is on top of a Land Raider, or in the sponsons of a Land Raider. And since LR themself aren't a great choice ... well.
*edit* just noticed - I think you confused melta and multimelta. People (e.g. myself) were suggesting melta and combi-melta INSTEAD of multimeltas.
It's not 7th edition anymore. Moving and firing with heavy weapons, especially with rerolls, isn't a huge deal, and Salamanders get rerolls by default.
Edit: and having your bolters firing at the same target because they're in range now means that you're making up the difference.
Worth noting that Scouts can take a heavy weapon too. They can set up closer to the enemy and, if you're using snipers, don't need to move. I've built mine with the missile launcher in the box but considering how easy it'd be to use different heavys on them.
I used to really love scout snipers back in 5th ed. Cover saves with camo cloaks giving a 3+ cover save and sniper rifles able to rend were really fun unit to take out pesky opponent units in the open, and coupled with a techmarine using Blessing of the Omnissiah to boost cover saves of a ruin you could get a 2+ cover save!
i've managed to get hold of Space Marine unit rules and costs so will be looking at them in more detail.
Scouts are really good, because they're cheap and can deploy outside your deployment area. Vanguard, Outflank, and Deep Strike can' happen within 9" of an enemy, so they're among the better options for blunting those attacks. They will die on turn 1 though, so be prepared on turn 2.
I'm not sure if I would have categorized a mutlimelta as "good for infantry" in 5th, 6th, or 7th.
Insectum7 wrote: Multimelta was dope on Skyhammer Devastators in 7th.
They also used to be cheep. So tossing them around wasn’t that big an investment. And when they did get to fire, they could put the hurt in. Low cost/high reward. Situational, but useful.
Now they are crazy expensive for what they do. And what they do best is not unique to them, and the edges they have over other options (extra AP, re-roll D at half range) doesn’t justify the drawbacks (short range, price)
I think they can still be effective. Things you get to shoot at with them feel it. But they are not very efficient. You spend a lot of points on them that could be invested elsewhere.
I’ve had some fun with drop pods with full-melta tac squads in 8th. They might be a bit overpriced, and do a job that could be done better by other units, but they can work. At least on a more casual level. And I have the models and enjoy the theme of drop lists, so it works for me. I do include them in lists knowing full well that if I were to tighten it up, they would be one of the first things on the chopping block. I’d also probably not recommend them to new players.
But if you have them and love them, by all means field them. But do so armed with the knowledge that it’s not 7th edition any more; their time in the sun is over.
I've been toying with including a multi-melta in a large squad of Sternguard that I'd deploy with Strike from the Shadows. I should be able to start the game in ideal melta range, but my concern is that bubblewrap will mean I won't be in range of anything worth shooting. That seems to me to be the biggest problem, along with price: you'll never get close enough to your preferred targets to take advantage of the melta special rules.
Waht about grav guns? they've always seemed a good idea.
Toying with lascannons or heavy bolters on the tacs. Since they're going up field.
Grav guns aren't too good. Grav Cannons are pretty awesome.
Heavy Bolter is a no-go, imo. A waste of a heavy weapon choice. A Grav Cannon has more shots, and hurts more target types. Limited to 24" like the Multimelta, but a solid all around choice. I expect my tacticals to be in close, so the 24" range isn't an issue.
My tacticals are usually armed with Grav Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma. Occasionally I use a Lascannon instead of the Grav Cannon.
Waht about grav guns? they've always seemed a good idea.
Toying with lascannons or heavy bolters on the tacs. Since they're going up field.
Grav guns aren't too good. Grav Cannons are pretty awesome.
Heavy Bolter is a no-go, imo. A waste of a heavy weapon choice. A Grav Cannon has more shots, and hurts more target types. Limited to 24" like the Multimelta, but a solid all around choice. I expect my tacticals to be in close, so the 24" range isn't an issue.
My tacticals are usually armed with Grav Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma. Occasionally I use a Lascannon instead of the Grav Cannon.
I special weapon spac. Two combat squads with plas and plas sergeant.
Waht about grav guns? they've always seemed a good idea.
Toying with lascannons or heavy bolters on the tacs. Since they're going up field.
Mine don't have grav cannons, so I can't comment on them. I haven't seen them on the board since 8th hit, so that might be indicative of the answer.
My "tacticals" don't get heavy weapons, but if they did I'd take lascannons.
If you're really, really in love with pushing with tacticals, I'd go las-plas in squads of 10, and have the lascannon half sit at the back and the plasmagun-sergeant half advance up the board. In the same vein, though, I generally try to take the minimum amount of tactical marines I can, because points spend on Grey Hunters is points not spent on Wolf Guard, Razorbacks, Predators, Long Fangs, etc.
Insectum7 wrote: Haha, and I'm the opposite. Why would you spend points on tanks when you could get MOAR MARINES instead?
Because tanks.
More relevantly, some tanks can be called "good". It would be incredibly generous to call tactical marines so. "Adequate" is probably a better term for them. They're not so bad that my army would be better off without their presence, but they're not exactly winning any MVP awards.
Insectum7 wrote: Haha, and I'm the opposite. Why would you spend points on tanks when you could get MOAR MARINES instead?
Because tanks.
More relevantly, some tanks can be called "good". It would be incredibly generous to call tactical marines so. "Adequate" is probably a better term for them. They're not so bad that my army would be better off without their presence, but they're not exactly winning any MVP awards.
I prefer Devastators for my fire support, easier to get in cover, can alpha strike using pods, get access to more interesting heavy weapons, and come with their own chaff. I also prefer the Chapter Tactics access, which tanks do not get. I don't like that a charged tank is a not-firing tank, while my UM marines can get out of it and keep shooting.
Tacticals are obviously in a very different role than a tank, but like I've said before I prefer to use them aggressively. To each their own. Tanks but no tanks.
Edit: Worth noting for the OP that the Salamanders Chapter Tactics are really great for fire support squads, and don't work on tanks.
Yeah funny how both loyalist and chaos spacemarines forget their chaptor tactics when they are given a vehical. Yet guard eldar etc manage to remember them. Apparently becoming a space marine gives you memory problems
Salamanders make tac squads work decently - especially with hestan around, while single lascan tacsquads don't need any hq around. But the local meta here isn't competitive, so no -2 to hit eldar shenanigans or spamming one unit all over the place.
