Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.

No they a probably gonna remain missing forever because of the original creators intentions.

I would like a fluff novel where say an Inquisitor stumbled upon this forbidden knowledge and it's never actually revealed to the viewer. Just to remind everyone that there are 2 forgotten Legions.

Nah, an Inquisitor might be too over-used. Maybe a Librarian or a Mechanicus discovers a hidden trove of archeotech.... Yeah....

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask.

Man, imagine the name was brought back - there would be no end to screeching from alt-right types about "SJWs ruinining muh game with dem gay diversity" and "nu-fluff sucking"

And as for there being hints or new info found - that in fact happens all the time in books, and the list of 'hints' is quite long: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/First_Founding#Two_Unknown_Legions

I wouldn't be surprised if GW/FW at some point, when they're finished with the Heresy and every chapter and even Grey Knights have primaris marines and the whole Chaos line is revamped and Plastic sisters got released - then GW could pull the two missing legions out the hat. Because GW can never have enough Space Marines.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.

Another reason is what Tuomas Pirinen(former games developer there) called "closed doors". Concept Jervis taught to him and Tuomas specifically used those 2 legions as example. Basically off hand mention of something but not develop it further then leaving option to maybe come later and make players go "oo this was planned all the time?" when it was never planned but just thrown there "maybe in future" and give impression of many mysteries and careful preplanned universum when no such thing existed.

Actually the Rainbow Warriors have been name-checked in recent Black Library fiction - in Deathwatch Mission: Purge.

A Space Wolf is trying to guess the chapter of a 'blackshield' and one of his guesses is the Rainbow Warriors, because

"If I was one of them, I wouldn't admit it either."
"The Rainbow Warriors are proud sons of Gulliman!"
"Yes, but it's the Name..."

Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Zomg!

This is why you can't trust Google.

Given the amount of "yeah, but we don't talk about them" present in the Heresy novels I don't think GW would flesh out the Lost Legions, given how much they'd have to go back and retcon to make it not sound silly.

I thought Varus just lost them?

It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

I think it’s possible they’ll do a reveal eventually- I mean you can’t say they’ll never do it with complete certainty. My own hope is that they’ll give enough information to piece things together, like some massive Da Vinci code, without ever confirming or out-right saying the truth. However that’d take a lot of coordination and thinking ahead, and despite my day-dreaming most likely they won’t. Maybe we could see a II or XI legionary in a hypothetical late unification wars novel/setting. Given that all the legionaries were mostly unspecialized and their Primarchs not being around means we get to see them without actually learning anything particularly grievous.

Slightly cynical, but I suppose GW could always hold onto the reveal until they are in a major slump, and then make a Great Crusade setting based on the rules of the HH and introduce them. Since at least one potentially rebelled against the Emperor it’d make at least one or two narrative books like Vraks and other FW books, though obviously it’s not the only option (cough False Primarch book when cough XD) out there but would have a lot more appeal.

I wouldn't put it past them to 'revive' the missing legions in the ongoing storyline. What if the missing legions were destroyed, at least in part, due to flaws in their geneseed? (Leading them to rebel and/or be persecuted etc.) Cawl has supposedly fixed geneseed flaws in the existing chapters, so I could see GW going along the road of Cawl having found some geneseed from the missing legions, 'fixed' it and created Primaris from it. It would be a lot easier to fit that in rather than using Chaos legion geneseed which people seem to variously discuss/hint at, if nobody knows or cares about the missing legions or why they were erased from history in the first place.

Voilà, a new chapter of Primaris marines completely unrelated to any of the old marine chapters, with new and different quirks which they can bring in, then greatly exaggerate over time.

I don't think I would want them to go that way - I think I prefer them to stay a mystery - but I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

There are a ton of hints scattered through the heresy series, off the top of my head;

Malcadors 's throne on the cover of the Sigilite audio cd has two large skulls on it - numbered to match the 2 missing legions.

In Nemesis there is reference to the mission not being the first time assassins have been sent to kill a Primarch.

In another early heresy novel, Fulgrim has a large chart of Primarch physiology that has been made from someone. Outside chance it's Ferrus but unlikely.

Burning of Prospero mentions the Space Wolves have deployed to kill a chapter legion before.

There is a lot more, but it's been a long series and scattered across so much media now.....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I thought Varus just lost them?

It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

No guarantee though that the lost legion isn't simply recreated from nearly nothing and the record of it removed, like the Imperial Fists.

I think lots of novels over the years give hints, all of which contradict each other. Some novels suggest that they were destroyed, it's been mentioned that not all passed a test after being found, that not all primarchs took the lead of their legion, and that current chapters are the remnants (red tithe gives many hints that the carcharadons were one of the lost legions whose original commander failed the emperor 10,000 years ago.). As soon as they canonize them, they destroy a huge intrigue in the background, and ruin a lot of people's fun.

 Irbis wrote:

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask.

Man, imagine the name was brought back - there would be no end to screeching from alt-right types about "SJWs ruinining muh game with dem gay diversity" and "nu-fluff sucking"

And as for there being hints or new info found - that in fact happens all the time in books, and the list of 'hints' is quite long: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/First_Founding#Two_Unknown_Legions

well given that the "alt-right" has nothing to do w/40K to begin with I doubt they'd have much to say. When GW sticks to their previously established lore people tend to be content.

I was under the impression that the missing legions where a nod to the missing Roman legion.

 darkcloak wrote:
Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Well, they were, but seeing that is 30 year old canon no one repeated since first edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it was retconned...

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...

R0bcrt wrote:
I think it’s possible they’ll do a reveal eventually- I mean you can’t say they’ll never do it with complete certainty. My own hope is that they’ll give enough information to piece things together, like some massive Da Vinci code, without ever confirming or out-right saying the truth. However that’d take a lot of coordination and thinking ahead, and despite my day-dreaming most likely they won’t. Maybe we could see a II or XI legionary in a hypothetical late unification wars novel/setting. Given that all the legionaries were mostly unspecialized and their Primarchs not being around means we get to see them without actually learning anything particularly grievous.

Slightly cynical, but I suppose GW could always hold onto the reveal until they are in a major slump, and then make a Great Crusade setting based on the rules of the HH and introduce them. Since at least one potentially rebelled against the Emperor it’d make at least one or two narrative books like Vraks and other FW books, though obviously it’s not the only option (cough False Primarch book when cough XD) out there but would have a lot more appeal.

I'd like to see it too, but seeing several major GW authors are fans of JJ Abrams approach to worldbuilding, aka making stuff up as you go, I wouldn't hold my breath.

As for FW options, I wish they made the Second Crusade canon. Sadly, after dropping this bombshell they apparently backtracked and now it's just origins store of these dumb Space Sharks. Pity.

 Irbis wrote:

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask

Nope. GW never published a list of the 1st Founding before 2nd edition as they didn't want to lock people into it, hence the Valedictors being clearly stated to be Andy Chambers homebrew rather than an official part of the setting: "To help you see how to use the Space Marine army list, here's an example of a Marine regiment I've designed: the 3rd Regiment of the Valedictors Chapter. I've decided to use a chapter of my own so I can invent my own colours and background. The Valedictors are based in the far eastern fringe of the Empire, fighting Orks and Eldar raiders as well as battling Traitor forces in the Horus Heresy." (White Dwarf 126 page 24)

The Rainbow Warriors were just one of the 12 chapters in the Rogue Trader rulebook which were stated to be just a random selection of chapters operating in the 41st Millenium - the first mention of Foundings ('Origins of the Legiones Astartes' a few months later) stated that only 7 of the 1st Founding Chapters still existed, and the first of the 12 to be detailed was stated to be 3rd Founding.

 Irbis wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Well, they were, but seeing that is 30 year old canon no one repeated since first edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it was retconned...

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...

That fluff also calls ultramarines as successor chapter of one of them so guess it's safe to say that's not valid fluff any more.

 Irbis wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...

Lost and the Purged are from Black Library, not Alan Bligh. And I seriously doubt they're going to drop the HH. It wasn't just Alan Bligh's project.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...

Lost and the Purged are from Black Library, not Alan Bligh. And I seriously doubt they're going to drop the HH. It wasn't just Alan Bligh's project.

Yeah FW is moving onward with new books etc. Not likely HH is going to be dropped(that would be death of FW for starters) and why remove stuff. Is that book so much hated or why would FW drop it?

I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion

Carlovonsexron wrote:
One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion

This makes no sense...

Carlovonsexron wrote:
One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion

No, the excerpt I read had a big [REDACTED] in the text, and made no mention of the Dark Angels. They also got a good kicking from the Rangdan, but my source suggests the other two Legions never returned at all.

I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...

ThunderCracker wrote:

I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...

The danger when you add hints of mystery without planning what it actually is Good reason to keep it mystery. Alas I suspect GW in their greed will not keep it mystery forever

tneva82 wrote:

ThunderCracker wrote:

I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...

The danger when you add hints of mystery without planning what it actually is Good reason to keep it mystery. Alas I suspect GW in their greed will not keep it mystery forever

Indeed. The lost Legions are hard work. For what it's worth, I'm currently working on both of them simultaneously. I'll be starting a WIP tonight, I think. I've no idea whether it'll be any good or not

The Lost and the Purged can fairly easily be represented by the Blackshields in 30k.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Lost and the Purged can fairly easily be represented by the Blackshields in 30k.

I was thinking more of creating my own take of them, with plenty of fluff thrown in. I've just written a small introduction to them both in Fanfic.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.

Malice could be a lost Primarch, destroyed by the Emperor after learning of Chaos and being zealots bent on combating it... and thus, spreading belief in it and undermining the Imperial "Truth."

Vojcek wrote:
I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.

And having half the legions go rogue isn't hurting morale?-)

That's the weird thing. Half the legions go renegade and they are still on records. Something happens with 2 and they are so secret even primarches didn't speak of them together.

tneva82 wrote:

Vojcek wrote:
I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.

And having half the legions go rogue isn't hurting morale?-)

That's the weird thing. Half the legions go renegade and they are still on records. Something happens with 2 and they are so secret even primarches didn't speak of them together.

The only thing I can think of is that they became pacifists. I think the Imperium would view that as worse than heresy.

There are lots of possible reasons why the primarchs wouldn't want to talk about the missing two, not the least of which is the emperor telling them not to. The two front runners in my head cannon are shame (the two legions did something so shameful that the other legions don't even want to talk about it), or the emperor messing with their minds. I'm leaning towards the later, because the emperor was kind of a douche, and it wouldn't serve if the primarchs spent a lot of time thinking about the two who had disobeyed.

As for the legions that went over to chaos not having their records purged, I imagine if the IoM had won the HH rather than just surviving it, the emperor would have purged them as well. With the emperor not responsive, and the threat still on going they couldn't afford to lose any information on the traitor legions.

I think I read somewhere that the UltraMarine Legion's numbers swelled by a good bit around the same time as one of the Legions was "lost", hinting that the UMs absorbed some of the Legion's numbers after their Primarch was gone.

Although, I like the mystery. It keeps creative options open

-

I think the UM getting the lost legions marines is a case of unreliable narrator, since it was two world eaters speculating on how the ultramarines had the numbers they did. The answer to their question is probably that the ultramarines had an easier route, didn't take part in the rangdan xenocide, and the worlds of ultramar were able to be recruited from more quickly because of the care RG took when conquering worlds.

tneva82 wrote:

Vojcek wrote:
I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.

And having half the legions go rogue isn't hurting morale?-)

That's the weird thing. Half the legions go renegade and they are still on records. Something happens with 2 and they are so secret even primarches didn't speak of them together.

Well, hard to hide information about 9 legions that go rogue and burn half of the galaxy including throneworld :-) On the other hand hiding information about failure of two legions in relatively isolated event could be easily doable. It seems similar to me like when Inquisition tried to hide information about existence of demons. This quite worked for ten thousand years until the Great rift opened when it was no more possible to hide it anymore.

We can actually work out roughly what happened to the lost legions from facts revealed thus far. So. Facts we know about the lost legions:-

-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Lorgar stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).



So. With all of those facts; we can draw up something of a hypothesis relating to both of them.


The first 'Missing' Primarch disobeyed and 'failed' the Emperor in some irrevocable way which required sanctioning/disciplining. Judging by the fact that he went missing before the finding of Corax, the timeline means that this Primarch must have been the head of the Legion destroyed during the Rangdan Xenocide.

What do we know about the Rangdan Xenocide? We know that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels had to purge the 'bio' taint of the Rangdan Cerabvores subsequently,leaving whole sectors lifeless (never the optimal solution); which means that the Rangdan Cerabvores had some way of irrevocably infecting biological organisms. As we know that this Primarch wasn't an out and out rebel (thanks Lorgar), and the Black Scroll of Doom/Ending has been delivered before, this Primarch and his Legion must have been willingly/knowingly sacrificed over the course of the campaign. Now this could be either because they were already tainted by the Rangdan Cerabvores from the Primarch's earlier disobedience (the most likely scenario given that no other Legions were allowed to perish entirely), or that the Emperor otherwise deliberately sacrificed them because he was so hacked off at them.

Their 'sanctioning', in other words, likely took the form of a suicide run. Depending on the form that the bio-taint of the Cerabvores took (so if it involved subverting or taking control of organisms), this could potentially be where the Space Wolves gained their experience fighting other marines (exterminating their remnants).


The second Missing Primarch on the other hand, was evidently compromised before he was found. He isn't regarded as having 'turned on' the Emperor (thanks again Lorgar) likely for the very simple reason that he never joined the Emperor to begin with. Whilst the author later disclaimed the story of another legion being folded into the ultramarines; this would actually be a good reason for a Legion to have been handed a Black Scroll and disbanded. Whether it was because he was the leader of an alien confederation, had already rejected the Emperor psychically, or was warp tainted to the extreme (invent your own reason), the Emperor knew this gent was never going to be a part of the Imperium before he managed to track him down. So the ready built Legion waiting for him would have needed breaking up and dispersing.

tneva82 wrote:

Vojcek wrote:
I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.

And having half the legions go rogue isn't hurting morale? That's the weird thing. Half the legions go renegade and they are still on records. Something happens with 2 and they are so secret even primarches didn't speak of them together.

But the two lost Legions were lost very early so they didn't have that much records or fame to speak of. Maybe it was easier to just let them be forgotten, something to not mention at family gatherings? The traitors at least already had some fame, so their records weren't as easily redacted as a Legion of unknown nobodies who got wiped out on their first or second campaign.

The Romans did the same sort of stuff. A really famous Legion that got wiped out was often refounded (with any surviving veterans), traitors were kept on record but forbidden from returning home, but a fresh Legion that got wiped out was never mentioned again since obviously it's number and symbol (if any) was pure bad luck.

I can buy one of the legions getting mulched, but the emperor made heroes of the thunder warriors, despite them getting wiped out and despite the fact he was the source of their downfall. If it were as simple as failure, I'm sure there would be legends of the last stand and the sacrifice made to save humanity. You also ignore one of the more tantalizing hints, that one of the legions used tainted stock. Which is the reason I think your timeline is slightly off, because when the dark angels started recruiting from caliban they did extensive test on the purity of the humans, which would imply that they had been burned before. A Further hint is the dark angels were mauled in the radagan xenocide, and when they went to caliban they had to stop crusading to replace the losses they had sustained. It seems like a good circumstantial case that the lion was found shortly after the Xenocide.

I think when you combine those hints with the term Cerabvores you get a fate worse than death, and certainly worthy of being expunged. Cerabvores, from cerebrum and vores, so at a guess Cerabvores means brain eaters. What if the rangdans were parasites that ate peoples brains and took them over? So a naive IoM just venturing out of the local area finds a seemingly friendly and benign technologically advanced people who were eager to join the IoMs great crusade. This world/worlds are recruited from heavily by a legion (probably XI as they would have just been getting spun up at the time), and then they find out that most of the legion is infected by the Rangdans and they've been infecting the worlds they claimed for the IoM. Suddenly the IoM is facing an existential crisis, they have to purge the legion, and sterilize the worlds they claimed or else all of humanity could be taken over. The records of this legion are purged to hide just how close to extinction the emperor's great crusade brought humanity.

That still leaves the second legion a mystery.

timeline of discovery of primarchs (best guesses based on books):

http://baddice.co.uk/primarch-discovery-order/

It's probably worth noting fulgrim talks about II being found before him, so II would have likely been third primarch found.

 Grimgold wrote:
A Further hint is the dark angels were mauled in the radagan xenocide, and when they went to caliban they had to stop crusading to replace the losses they had sustained. It seems like a good circumstantial case that the lion was found shortly after the Xenocide.

Nope. We have established dates. Caliban and Jonson were found twenty years before the Xenocides.

We also don't need to guess the discovery order, it was leaked by Laurie Goulding.

I kinda wish they'd make some stories about what might have happened, a la White Wolf and VII. Provide a book that details a number of different possibilities.

 Ketara wrote:
We can actually work out roughly what happened to the lost legions from facts revealed thus far. So. Facts we know about the lost legions:-

-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Lorgar stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).

Not that I disbelieve you, but [Citation needed] Just for my own curiosity so I can check what's been said.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
We can actually work out roughly what happened to the lost legions from facts revealed thus far. So. Facts we know about the lost legions:-

-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Lorgar stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).

Not that I disbelieve you, but [Citation needed] Just for my own curiosity so I can check what's been said.

Which one? I can substantiate all of them.

I thought we already knew that the Two Lost Legions and their Primarchs were all 'found' and 'known'.

I'm not so sure about one of them being 'lost' before he could be found.

Also, at this point, with the mess they've made of the Heresy, I'm 100% for 100% Open Kimono - show and tell us everything!

Everyone makes fun of anyone who says their homebrew is one of the Lost Legions anyway.

It's right up there with 'Lost in the Warp' for "Most Ridiculed"!

In regard to one of the Unknown Primarch's being "Lost" "compromised" before he was found. Wouldn't he be the one who's creation tank was cracked before the warp storm sucked up the Primarchs? In "First Heretic" During their vision of the Scattering, Argel Tal notes that one of the infant Primarch's (I forget if it was II or XI) was desperately banging on the broken glass in panic as his capsule was sucked into the rift.

I'm pretty sure that was actual 'reality' but a twisted Chaos Dream Vision Quest etc.

 Alpharius wrote:
I thought we already knew that the Two Lost Legions and their Primarchs were all 'found' and 'known'.

I'm not so sure about one of them being 'lost' before he could be found.

Laurie Goulding went online and released the official 'Find' order of Primarchs if you care to run a quick google. In it, you see that Corax was the 18th to be found, followed by one of the unknown ones, and then Alpharius.

Yet in the story where Corax is found by the Emperor, the Emperor tells him he only has seventeen brothers, and when pressed, says that they're a story for another day.

These two facts combined mean that the Emperor knew that one of the Lost Primarchs was done for/unrecruitable prior to having actually physically found/located him. As Lorgar explicitly separates the two missing Primarchs as having 'failed' instead of having turned on the Emperor; this can only mean that the second 'Lost' Primarch never signed up to the Imperium to begin with.

List order for reference (though... was posted on reddit by someone...)

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5g67m0/primarch_discovery_order_as_told_by_laurie/

Can the "Laurie List" really be considered "Official" or perhaps "Still Official"?

And didn't we also hear from Official Sources that all of the Primarchs were found and had their day(s) in the Sun before any thing at all went pear shaped?

Laurie said (if you read the forum thread) that it was the official order/list that BL authors were working by; and he actually asked permission before posting it. All the Primarchs have finding dates assigned as well, but they wouldn't let him attach those publicly (presumably so as to not pin them down to that extent).

So until something appears in print to override him and indicate that they've changed their list, it more or less has to be taken as canon. Which means that one of the Primarchs was known as 'lost' so to speak, before he was found. Which very much fits with this missing primarch never having betrayed the Emperor. You can't betray what you never signed up to.

Except, by what's in print, that list is already shown as incorrect!

 Alpharius wrote:
Except, by what's in print, that list is already shown as incorrect!

Where so? Have they released a different discovery list order? What publication?

The one you listed!

Reading down that thread, the Emperor is already telling Corax about the 2 'Lost Legion' Primarchs even though, according to the List, one hadn't been found yet.

Yeah, that list is obviously outdated and the details may have changed, though I'm sure it's still roughly what they are going by.

Didn't all the Primarchs (including those two missing) have their statues on Terra at some point? Why would they raise a statue to Primarch who was never found?

I heard a theory that the Alpha Legion somehow absorbed one of the legions, and that either Alpharius or Omegon is the missing primarch of a lost legion that’s been manipulated into pretending to be the real AL primarch’s twin. While the theory is mostly baseless and pretty out there, it is supported by one of the missing primarchs being found just before Alpharius+Omegon. It also gained new credence in how the HH Alpha Legion acts completely different from the modern 40k Alpha Legion, most importantly in tactics and effectiveness. The failure of the AL to do anything substantial in the Horus Heresy is because the agents sent from the AL are actually the missing legion, so it stands to reason that their attempts to use Alpha Legion tactics would fail. Over time the AL replaced their losses with Marines made with actual AL gene-stock, making the legion what it is today. It’s pretty tinfoil-hat but interesting all the same.

Alpharius wrote:The one you listed!

Reading down that thread, the Emperor is already telling Corax about the 2 'Lost Legion' Primarchs even though, according to the List, one hadn't been found yet.

Well yes, that's kind of the point. Perhaps I'm not explaining this well.

When the Emperor meets up with Corax, he makes the point that two of Corax's brothers are already lost to him; even though he has yet to meet one of them according to Goulding's list. Goulding made a point of stating that these dates in his list referred to physical first meetings as opposed to them taking up command of their legions or suchlike. In other words, the Emperor already knew that one of the Missing Primarchs was lost to him prior to actually finding/meeting the fellow in the flesh, as it were.

Now there's an infinite number of reasons why that could be. It could be he was warp tainted and psychic, meaning the Emperor had already perceived his warp presence and knew him to be corrupted. It could be that he'd sent an emissary to the Emperor as Borg Slave #12765 because he had an irremovable implant like Angron; meaning the Emperor knew he couldn't be reclaimed. Who knows? The point remains that before meeting this second 'Missing Primarch', the Emperor already knew that this other Primarch was permanently lost to him. This ties in neatly with Lorgar's later statement that the two missing Primarchs 'failed' the Emperor instead of turning on him; because it means that this particular Primarch never joined the Imperium/Emperor to begin with (thus being unable to have betrayed him).

Vojcek wrote:Didn't all the Primarchs (including those two missing) have their statues on Terra at some point? Why would they raise a statue to Primarch who was never found?

Who knows? Maybe all the statues had the heads missing originally to be added as they were found? Or they were partially completed lumps of marble to be finished once the primarch was found? Art can be a funny thing.

My point is that "The List", while once valid, might not be anymore.

Plans change, everything is fluid, BL messes up a lot, etc.

 Alpharius wrote:
My point is that "The List", while once valid, might not be anymore.

Plans change, everything is fluid, BL messes up a lot, etc.

Sure, it might well do so in the future. But we're talking about the here and now; and as things stand, I'm just making logical observations from the collated facts that we have been given. So long as nothing is set down officially contravening Goulding's list (and therefore showing it to have been retconned), the Emperor has to have known that one of the Primarchs was 'lost' to him before meeting him.

Which really isn't that big a continuity problem; I gave two wholly plausible reasons above. It wouldn't be hard to generate more.

Here's an idea, the scene from deliverance lsot consisted of the writer screwing up.

 Ketara wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
.Yet in the story where Corax is found by the Emperor, the Emperor tells him he only has seventeen brothers, and when pressed, says that they're a story for another day.

These two facts combined mean that the Emperor knew that one of the Lost Primarchs was done for/unrecruitable prior to having actually physically found/located him. As Lorgar explicitly separates the two missing Primarchs as having 'failed' instead of having turned on the Emperor; this can only mean that the second 'Lost' Primarch never signed up to the Imperium to begin with.

An explanation with less-complex assumptions would be that by the ‘seventeen brothers’ the Emperor meant the seventeen Primarchs already found before Corax; the ‘story for another day’ being how they all got scattered. The corollary of this would of course be that the first of the missing Primarchs was not expunged until after this point. As I recall Laurie Goulding has subsequently stated that BL work on the basis that all twenty Primarchs had been found prior to the two purges taking place.

Yes, exactly.

Like I said earlier, BL/GW should just reveal all when it comes to the Lost Legions.

The HH was the first sacred cow, now gone.

Let's kill this one too!

one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

 Corennus wrote:
one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

There's no actual evidence to say a Legion was absorbed into the Ultramarines.

The ONLY time it's mentioned is by a pair of traitor legionnaries when they're essentially talking about the Ultramarines Legion. We are told by more reliable sources, and see actively happen, that the Ultramarines had a very large recruitment centre and logistical efficiency, explaining their ability to rapidly take in troops and take fewer casualties. Therefore, it's completely logical that the Ultramarines would have a larger legion, and other legions, especially traitor legions, would propose in-universe conspiracy theories on the matter.

So, I’d say that one was killed off by the Wolves as a result of some cataclysmic geneseed flaw, while the other potentially did a “Dark Angels” and split apart pre Heresy, with the loyalists denouncing their Primarch and being absorbed into the Ultramarines after various trials.

But I’m with you. I think, it’s getting to the point where BL should start providing hints that will allow us to draw reasonable conclusions to their fates, whilst never actually spelling it out directly. The names can be left “forgotten”, allowing people to come up with their own side stories etc, but the causes should be developed further.

I also agree that we are potentially seeing distinct changes to the old “canon” in the HH books. I never saw/read the original lore regarding the siege of Terra etc, but, I remember having a debate with someone, where I stated that with the amount of differences between what was previously said to have happened, and what was happening now, things could end up significantly different by the end of the siege.

 Ketara wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
We can actually work out roughly what happened to the lost legions from facts revealed thus far. So. Facts we know about the lost legions:-

-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Lorgar stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).

Not that I disbelieve you, but [Citation needed] Just for my own curiosity so I can check what's been said.

Which one? I can substantiate all of them.

All of 'em. Specifically, the one about the Space Wolves having done it.

even the guy who wrote the bit about the Ultramarines has come out and basicly said "don't take that too literally given the soruce you can safly assume it was just two word bearers gak talking"

 Corennus wrote:
one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

I think ADB confirmed the former wasn't the case and was just in-universe rumours. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

I think ADB confirmed the former wasn't the case and was just in-universe rumours. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true.

he did yes people reaaaally need to stop taking everything stated in a book as literal truth. Consider how many BS untrue statements you see in a day (even before fake news and donald trump)

Lord Fishface wrote:
An explanation with less-complex assumptions would be that by the ‘seventeen brothers’ the Emperor meant the seventeen Primarchs already found before Corax; the ‘story for another day’ being how they all got scattered. The corollary of this would of course be that the first of the missing Primarchs was not expunged until after this point. As I recall Laurie Goulding has subsequently stated that BL work on the basis that all twenty Primarchs had been found prior to the two purges taking place.

I'm not sure its 'less complex assumptions'. Applying Occam's Razor, both are identically simple and likely at this stage. I'll happily concede that that is a pefectly feasible alternative explanation for the Emperor's statement though.

That being said, I would appreciate a link to the Goulding statement.

AndrewGPaul wrote:
All of 'em. Specifically, the one about the Space Wolves having done it.

Blimey guv, just a few references then?

1. Sanguinius keeping his genetic issue secret from his father for fear of them being terminated like a prior legion is in his discussion with Horus in Fear To Tread.
2. We have a timeline between which the Missing Legions must have been eliminated due to twenty contemporary Primarchs being mentioned when the Dark Angels and Jonson are first brought into the fold, and the fact that the two missing ones weren't there when the Heresy started.
3. The Wolves being 'loosed again' on a space marine legion is mentioned in the Outcast Undead. There's also considerable supporting evidence in the frequent mention of them as 'Executioners', Wolves mentioning fighting other Legions before (Burning of Prospero) and so forth. The extent of their involvement is unknown, but the fact that they were at some stage would appear to be the case.
4. The Corax quote has been gone into at length already.
5. Vulkan in Vulkan lives, 'None of us wants another sanction, another empty pillar in the great investiary'. There's also a vague statement in Legion '"I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all." which might refer to it (though this is less certain than the Vulkan quote).
6. The Black Scroll background comes from Lost Sons by James Swallow.
7. This is sourced already in the prior statement.
8. I actually misattributed this one initially. It wasn't Lorgar, but Guilliman in Dark Imperium. '"I was one of twenty. Two failed. Half the rest turned on my father. The Emperor is not infallible, nor am I."
9. The same source and Cawl. '"The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their Primarchs were.'
10. See below.

That do the trick for you?

BrianDavion wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

I think ADB confirmed the former wasn't the case and was just in-universe rumours. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true.

he did yes people reaaaally need to stop taking everything stated in a book as literal truth. Consider how many BS untrue statements you see in a day (even before fake news and donald trump)

I'm not sure if this was referring to me or not, but I've referred to the later retraction at every step of the way and qualified accordingly.

 Ketara wrote:

Lord Fishface wrote:
An explanation with less-complex assumptions would be that by the ‘seventeen brothers’ the Emperor meant the seventeen Primarchs already found before Corax; the ‘story for another day’ being how they all got scattered. The corollary of this would of course be that the first of the missing Primarchs was not expunged until after this point. As I recall Laurie Goulding has subsequently stated that BL work on the basis that all twenty Primarchs had been found prior to the two purges taking place.

I'm not sure its 'less complex assumptions'. Applying Occam's Razor, both are identically simple and likely at this stage. I'll happily concede that that is a pefectly feasible alternative explanation for the Emperor's statement though.

That being said, I would appreciate a link to the Goulding statement.

AndrewGPaul wrote:
All of 'em. Specifically, the one about the Space Wolves having done it.

Blimey guv, just a few references then?

1. Sanguinius keeping his genetic issue secret from his father for fear of them being terminated like a prior legion is in his discussion with Horus in Fear To Tread.
2. We have a timeline between which the Missing Legions must have been eliminated due to twenty contemporary Primarchs being mentioned when the Dark Angels and Jonson are first brought into the fold, and the fact that the two missing ones weren't there when the Heresy started.
3. The Wolves being 'loosed again' on a space marine legion is mentioned in the Outcast Undead. There's also considerable supporting evidence in the frequent mention of them as 'Executioners', Wolves mentioning fighting other Legions before (Burning of Prospero) and so forth. The extent of their involvement is unknown, but the fact that they were at some stage would appear to be the case.
4. The Corax quote has been gone into at length already.
5. Vulkan in Vulkan lives, 'None of us wants another sanction, another empty pillar in the great investiary'. There's also a vague statement in Legion '"I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all." which might refer to it (though this is less certain than the Vulkan quote).
6. The Black Scroll background comes from Lost Sons by James Swallow.
7. This is sourced already in the prior statement.
8. I actually misattributed this one initially. It wasn't Lorgar, but Guilliman in Dark Imperium. '"I was one of twenty. Two failed. Half the rest turned on my father. The Emperor is not infallible, nor am I."
9. The same source and Cawl. '"The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their Primarchs were.'
10. See below.

That do the trick for you?

BrianDavion wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
one legion was disbanded and subsumed into the Ultramarines.

The other was lost in the warp.


Personally i've always liked the idea that one legion survived secretly and fought in the warp for thousands of years.

I think ADB confirmed the former wasn't the case and was just in-universe rumours. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true.

he did yes people reaaaally need to stop taking everything stated in a book as literal truth. Consider how many BS untrue statements you see in a day (even before fake news and donald trump)

I'm not sure if this was referring to me or not, but I've referred to the later retraction at every step of the way and qualified accordingly.

not aimed at you but people who tend to take that statement as gosiple truth.

In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

Given the mess which developed from people reading an account which is stated by the character telling the story as being inaccurate in Mechanicum as literal truth, I'd say that's sadly not true for a significant portion of readers

 Ketara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

Bingo, ADB may not have intended it to be taken literally and said so afterward, but since it's now in a book, he no longer has a say until he writes a book that contradicts it, or someone else does, until that happens, its canon.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

Bingo, ADB may not have intended it to be taken literally and said so afterward, but since it's now in a book, he no longer has a say until he writes a book that contradicts it, or someone else does, until that happens, its canon.

no it is NOT canon. what IS cannon is that "some word bearers. whom have little love for Gulliman have suggested it to be the case.

 Irbis wrote:

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors.

This is incorrect. Legions, as we know them today, simply did not exist when those Space Marine Chapters were listed in anything. Those are from a time when Space Marines were mostly criminal juicers.

 Ketara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

Of course GW can go that way tomorrow regardless of what is written in previous books. GW can write tomorrow Horus killed Emperor and ascended to full daemonhood releasing daemon primarch Horus for 40k tomorrow.

So what? GW can change things future anyway. What we now have is two word bearers speculating. Nothing of proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Bingo, ADB may not have intended it to be taken literally and said so afterward, but since it's now in a book, he no longer has a say until he writes a book that contradicts it, or someone else does, until that happens, its canon.

Yes. It's canon those 2 word bearers believed so. Not cannon that it's actually what happened.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

Bingo, ADB may not have intended it to be taken literally and said so afterward, but since it's now in a book, he no longer has a say until he writes a book that contradicts it, or someone else does, until that happens, its canon.

no it is NOT canon. what IS cannon is that "some word bearers. whom have little love for Gulliman have suggested it to be the case.

Yep, self same word bearers who have more in universe knowledge on the subject that we do, they have heard duty rumours that the ultras had a large intake, and half believe it, what isn't canon is people's total disregard of it, that's just opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
In all fairness I say to you guys what I said to him, it's part of the fluff now and canon, he can say xyz after the fact but if it's not in a book, it's just the writers take on it, if he wants it removed or taken as a rumour, he needs to put that in a book.

He DID it was two word bearers gak talking the Ultramarines. I don't think we need to have our hands held in explaining to us in a novel that "not everything everyone says is always the truth"

I think what Formosa's trying to say, is that now that it's been written it's in an extended sci-fi universe beyond Goulding's control; which in turn means that whilst we can all agree/know he didn't mean it that way right now, another BL library author can always decide to refer to it and make it true in a later publication should they so desire. The in-universe seed/fluff has been planted. Whilst it may well just remain as an in-universe bit of untrue nasty gossiping; Games Workshop could decide to go down the 'Primarch decided not to join and his Legion was dispersed' story route tomorrow if they wanted to. In which case it would become true, as opposed to just gossiping.

After all, who can tell where authors will draw their inspiration from, or what conclusion they'll be ordered to construct a story for? Christ knows that Boba Fett was never originally meant to be the overinflated character he turned into.

Of course GW can go that way tomorrow regardless of what is written in previous books. GW can write tomorrow Horus killed Emperor and ascended to full daemonhood releasing daemon primarch Horus for 40k tomorrow.

So what? GW can change things future anyway. What we now have is two word bearers speculating. Nothing of proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Bingo, ADB may not have intended it to be taken literally and said so afterward, but since it's now in a book, he no longer has a say until he writes a book that contradicts it, or someone else does, until that happens, its canon.

Yes. It's canon those 2 word bearers believed so. Not cannon that it's actually what happened.

See you get it, they believed it, that lends it some credibility, not much mind you, but some.

 Formosa wrote:

Yep, self same word bearers who have more in universe knowledge on the subject that we do, they have heard duty rumours that the ultras had a large intake, and half believe it, what isn't canon is people's total disregard of it, that's just opinion.

Actually in universum characters are the ones disadvantaged over readers who know more...Just because 2 random word bearers are speculating on it doesn't mean it's so.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors.

This is incorrect. Legions, as we know them today, simply did not exist when those Space Marine Chapters were listed in anything. Those are from a time when Space Marines were mostly criminal juicers.

Actually (he says in a nasal voice, pushing his specs back up his nose), the Rainbow Warriors were depicted in the first Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. At that time there was no Horus Heresy, and in fact, no Chaos Gods at all. When the Realm of Chaos books, Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine were released (not quite simultaneously; AT was first, I can't remember whether RoC:StD came before or after SM), some of the Chapters were made First Founding Chapters (the term Legion was reserved for traitor forces, and was effectively a synonym for Chapter). At this point, I remember there being 17 named, and three blanks. One of the scenarios in Space Marine mentioned the Crimson Fists, though, so there's some slight confusion.

The Valedictors were Andy Chambers' invention. Originally used as the example force in the Space Marine army list for Epic in May 1990, and featured in a battle report against Jervis' Orks in January 1991 (the first time those two faced each other in a WD battle report - it set the precedent of Jervis losing). They've never been seen again, and unless they've been retconned into something in the new Horus Heresy fiction series, they've never been referred to either.

So, Rainbow Warriors are canon (still canon, although they might no longer exist; their homeworld was shown on the map in a previous edition of Codex Space Marines with some sort of censored indication). Valedictors were basically Andy Chambers' homebrew Chapter - not really any more canon than my invented Knight household.

tneva82 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Yep, self same word bearers who have more in universe knowledge on the subject that we do, they have heard duty rumours that the ultras had a large intake, and half believe it, what isn't canon is people's total disregard of it, that's just opinion.

Actually in universum characters are the ones disadvantaged over readers who know more...Just because 2 random word bearers are speculating on it doesn't mean it's so.

True and not true, we know only what's written, where as these people would have had lived through events that have never been written about, the best stories are the ones that seem like they have been going on with or without our observation.

We have no idea WHY they believe this to be so, we don't know how the rumour came to be or if it's actually true, all we know is they believe it's true, and they know more about the subject than we do, because they have seen the missing legions and their primarchs, we have not.

 Alpharius wrote:
Can the "Laurie List" really be considered "Official" or perhaps "Still Official"?

And didn't we also hear from Official Sources that all of the Primarchs were found and had their day(s) in the Sun before any thing at all went pear shaped?

All of the primarchs were found and participated in the Great 'Crusade per the CSM dex.


Of interesting note, according to Fulgrim as told by Commander Alkenex of the EC in Clonelord (so second hand info from an unreliable source. etc. etc...) one of the two forgotten ones lead an expedition to the YMGA Monolith (which is located conveniently near Solemnace) and what they found in there was never recorded.


Sooo, they drop a pretty heavy hint there. But at the same time Trazyn says later "He's never had a primarch in his collection before". So unless Trazyn is a forgetful fella then that douses water on that one.

Good stuff there Grimtuff - thanks!

I just got done reading Master Of Mankind and could swear the Ragdan xenocide was referenced as culling an entire legion. And the Emperor himself says that 'failure' is the greatest heresy. Basically insinuating that one of his Primarchs totally failing (losing his entire legion to xenos) was more heretical than Horus turning traitor. But pretty sure only one legion was mentioned being lousy in the Xenocide.

Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

 Formosa wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

I can't remember if they gave each recruit's affectation before or after the first implantation, but it would be interesting if not strange to do it AFTER, especially in the White Scar's case as it would make their half-rebellion much deeper and more "logical" (even though it is already quite so as it is), they would lack the genes needed to identify to the Khan.

 Formosa wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

Pretty sure what you are refering to is the Aspirants being told pre-implantation that they would be going to the Luna Wolves, only to be told after the process that. "Yeah we said that, but the Fifth Legion really needed recruits so we gave you their geneseed instead. Have fun."

Considering the sheer money that gw could make by gradually leaking fluff, then a big reveal, I'd guess it'll happen sooner or later.

I'm aware that, originally, the two legions were left blank so that others could create their own legions, but the idea has evolved since then, so that this is no longer the case.

Personally, I would like to see a reveal, but I'm worried that A; it'll be an anti climax, and B; Once revealed, the interesting / exciting mystery is no more. What's better? The mystery, or the reveal?

Could one of the Primarchs just have died on the planet it was sent to? I know they were superhuman, but I'm expecting not all of them to survive childhood on some of the planets they were sent to.

[Edit]
Hmmm having through about this, it's not possible is it, as all Primarchs were found alive... right?

What if not all of the Primarchs landed on human planets? What if one landed on a xenos world? Or an Abhuman world?

 ThunderCracker wrote:
What if not all of the Primarchs landed on human planets? What if one landed on a Zenos world? Or an Abhuman world?

That is an interesting idea! Generally speaking I don’t see too much of an issue if it’s abhuman unless it’s some particularly divergent strain since Beastmen are nominally accepted. Xenos would be very interesting, and with all the weird creepy things it’d be interesting to see such a hypothetical. For example the Rangdan Xenocides implies that somehow it corrupts people based on some of the references in the black books. so what if the Slaugth secretly corrupted a primarch as a youth or something? Could explain then the legion getting corrupted since you use the primarch’s genes to stabilize the gene seed, and them “failing” the Emperor during the crusade, with heavy implications of something going down during the Rangdan events it’s not impossible if still pure conjecture.

 Ketara wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Except, by what's in print, that list is already shown as incorrect!

Where so? Have they released a different discovery list order? What publication?

Another example is in "Fulgrim" where it comments that Fulgrim met Sanguinius around the same time as he met Ferrus yet Sanguinius was not found until much later than those two in Laurie Goulding's list.

The list may well be what BL writers currently work to but it does contradict several of the early HH novels (probably ones where they not yet nailed the order down yet).

Someone actually went through all the references that were mentioned in the books and apparently managed to prove there was no possible order of discovery that did not have at least 1 contradiction in the novels but I cannot find the post at the moment.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

Pretty sure what you are refering to is the Aspirants being told pre-implantation that they would be going to the Luna Wolves, only to be told after the process that. "Yeah we said that, but the Fifth Legion really needed recruits so we gave you their geneseed instead. Have fun."

It's vague as to how many implants they've received, if any. There's other references to multi-Legion emergency reinforcement pools during the Great Crusade, and didn't the Wolves take reinforcements from the Dark Angels after fighting the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula?

It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

It's a huge part of the lore and, if it were "true life", then the finding of a Primarch would be like finding Tutankhamun, alive and well, hermetically sealed behind a wall all this time.

It would also be meticulously recorded in millions of places; official documents, in the media, online etc. Imagine how much information there would be in 41st millennium still floating around?

Now, I get that 10k years have passed in universe since then, but, when you consider that there are certain individuals (likely many thousands) who are still alive and can remember those events firsthand (Belesarius Cawl, probably a great many tech priests), inquisitors, space marines (Bjorn THF), lots of perpetuals, I find it hard to believe that events that important have been forgotten or become faint.

 ThunderCracker wrote:
It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

You mean like the official finding order from Black Library that Laurie Goulding published?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5g67m0/primarch_discovery_order_as_told_by_laurie/

No dates alas.

 Karhedron wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:
It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

You mean like the official finding order from Black Library that Laurie Goulding published?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5g67m0/primarch_discovery_order_as_told_by_laurie/

No dates alas.

Lol yeah, just like that. What I'm getting at, though, is something recent, and by GW themselves. The lore has changed somewhat in the years since Goulding published that list, has it not?

My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They cop out with their "there is no canon at all" attitude. That's why not.

pm713 wrote:
They cop out with their "there is no canon at all" attitude. That's why not.

Agreed. Which is annoying, no? If there's a story, them surely there has to be agreed, established canon?

Wouldn't it be cool to get a Lost Legions codex where it was a build-your-own template that players could use to generate their own Chapters descended from the two missing Legions? And GW could just shoehorn you in, like any other lore change or update. Pffft, Warriors of Scott were totally at Istvaan! Space Gophers? Yeah, they sided with Luft Huron at Badab but were pardoned after accepting a penitent crusade when he was defeated. Unfortunately the Space Gophers were slain to a Marine when their Battle Barge was run over by a Space Hulk in warp transit...

But seriously, that would be cool. Something like you pick a few primarch traits, which leads to geneseed attributes, homeworks, armoury, that sort of thing...

 darkcloak wrote:
Wouldn't it be cool to get a Lost Legions codex where it was a build-your-own template that players could use to generate their own Chapters descended from the two missing Legions? And GW could just shoehorn you in, like any other lore change or update. Pffft, Warriors of Scott were totally at Istvaan! Space Gophers? Yeah, they sided with Luft Huron at Badab but were pardoned after accepting a penitent crusade when he was defeated. Unfortunately the Space Gophers were slain to a Marine when their Battle Barge was run over by a Space Hulk in warp transit...

But seriously, that would be cool. Something like you pick a few primarch traits, which leads to geneseed attributes, homeworks, armoury, that sort of thing...

Now, that's an interesting idea.

I'd also like to see an IG codex style "regimental doctrines" table. It'd be nice to have a random legion name and livery generator chucked in there too. I look forward to the day when my legion, "The Shrub Rocketeers" take to the field, resplendent in their burnt orange and teal, quartered livery, waving their signature "warrior weapons" and led by the dedicated pacifist Primarch, the ironically named "Gorfist the destroyer", distributing free reading material and care packages.

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

Haha, homeworlds not homeworks...

All Warriors of Scott must take this G.O.A.T home with them and have it turned in by Evening Skirmish Bell or suffer the consequences! We are the Emperor's Most Okay!

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.

Well we can probably rule out Chaos, as the Primarchs would most likely have known about Chaos if that was the case, I think they tried to secede from the Imperium.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

(sigh) I guess, deep down, I knew that. Ah well, back to being mystified....

 ThunderCracker wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

(sigh) I guess, deep down, I knew that. Ah well, back to being mystified....

thing is, the lore isn't all written down in some grand bible they're holding onto and doling out in small chunks to us. that's not how world building works. the writers did put out most if not all the info they did out at once, and then slowly built on that with new novels etc as new products and demand came out. GW decides to do a giant robot fighting game (the original adeptus titanicus) but can only put out one line of giant fioghty robots.. so the Horus Heresy becomes a thing. GW decides to do a 28mm game called Inqusitor, Dan Abnett gets ahold of the early material and runs out and writes Eisenhorn, etc.

TDLR Lore isn't a once and done thing, it's something that is CONSTANTLY being invented, reinvented etc.

The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

 Karhedron wrote:
The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

Lol yes I remember the bunker fight. I dropped in to 40k when Ptera Squirrels were a thing

As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

 ThunderCracker wrote:


As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

LOTR has two major differences - out-world it was created by single person with love for fitting things neatly (but afaik it had number of timeline drafts and corrections that fully stopped only with death of Creator). In-world it's basically Elven/Mayar narrative that is The History of one continuity, with lot of personnaes from previous age (and some from FIRST Age) available for questioning. It was written as some country's school textbook - and textbooks are oversimplification and compromise to make people remember something 'properly'.

PS My major grudge against GW/BL is retcons within and rewriting of already covered periods - while changes to _40M version_ of HH is something of no consequence to my reception of lore. Even 'it is really Horus that killed and absorbed Emperor now sits on Golden Throne' will still fit 40M lore until 'and every Lord of Terra and many lesser men know that from day one' retcon arrives.

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

Lol yes I remember the bunker fight. I dropped in to 40k when Ptera Squirrels were a thing

As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

How many balrogs are there, and do they have wings?

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They actually do know what's canon and what's not. They just won't tell us.

ADB commonly explains this idea using the following dialogue, which was based on his actual conversation with IP management. Copied from his reddit AMA:

ADB: "I want to do X."

IP: "You can't, that's wrong, the lore doesn't go like that."

ADB: "But it says in these published sources that I'm right. I just want to carry on X and Y and Z."

IP: "Yeah, but they were wrong. They were wrong at the time, too. We never directly say they were wrong, we just never mention them again, and eventually counter them in later publications."

ADB: "But the readers think these things are true."

IP: "Sure. But eventually, they won't."

Essentially what GW bank on is that new players won't read old lore. They'll read whatever's newest and build their view of the setting around that. Old lore might never be directly ret-conned (or if it is it's by accident) but that doesn't mean it's still canon or that it will ever be printed again.

I find 40ks approach to be better, since I like to regard the fluff as history and history always comes from someones point of view, limited and biased.

jareddm wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They actually do know what's canon and what's not. They just won't tell us.

ADB commonly explains this idea using the following dialogue, which was based on his actual conversation with IP management. Copied from his reddit AMA:

ADB: "I want to do X."

IP: "You can't, that's wrong, the lore doesn't go like that."

ADB: "But it says in these published sources that I'm right. I just want to carry on X and Y and Z."

IP: "Yeah, but they were wrong. They were wrong at the time, too. We never directly say they were wrong, we just never mention them again, and eventually counter them in later publications."

ADB: "But the readers think these things are true."

IP: "Sure. But eventually, they won't."

Essentially what GW bank on is that new players won't read old lore. They'll read whatever's newest and build their view of the setting around that. Old lore might never be directly ret-conned (or if it is it's by accident) but that doesn't mean it's still canon or that it will ever be printed again.

so rather then go out and declare X uncommon, they prefer X to just be slowly forgotten about, makes sense, less contriversial.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

The two legions were erased becaused they failed. Nothing is worse than utter failure in the eyes of the Emperor. (Emperor of Mankind)

 SickSix wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

The two legions were erased becaused they failed. Nothing is worse than utter failure in the eyes of the Emperor. (Emperor of Mankind)

Does he see the irony there I wonder?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

Lol yes I remember the bunker fight. I dropped in to 40k when Ptera Squirrels were a thing

As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

How many balrogs are there, and do they have wings?

Good question. I currently answer that question as follows: There used to be lots of them. Now, there's at least one confirmed one, durins bane, which is dead. How many more are in hiding? We just don't know....



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, do they have wings? Maybe they do, maybe they dont!

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
I find 40ks approach to be better, since I like to regard the fluff as history and history always comes from someones point of view, limited and biased.

The victor writes the history books, as they say. Whatever despicable things you did in order to win and absorb (or eradicate) the losers will be presented as most proper and needed solutions to the horrible stuff they did, real or not.

And history does become legend and myths eventually, as Tolkien said. Even the story of something as recent as the American Revolution is told in a manner that makes it seem all the more heroic, presenting certain heroes that might never have existed or at least never did quite as much as they're credited with today while forgetting others because their origins would make it less "american".

pm713 wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

The two legions were erased becaused they failed. Nothing is worse than utter failure in the eyes of the Emperor. (Emperor of Mankind)

Does he see the irony there I wonder?

proably not