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Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 11:43:35


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


The writer of Dark Imperium used the 'the Primarch needs no protection' line from the World Eaters in reference to Angron. Well Girlyman sure as hell needed protection from Fulgrim and Angron come to think of it LOL


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 15:20:50


Post by: Spetulhu


Eh? So if he needed protection, how is he a Mary Sue?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 15:32:50


Post by: BaconCatBug


Spetulhu wrote:
Eh? So if he needed protection, how is he a Mary Sue?
Because Matt Ward's idiocy was THAT powerful, no amount of revisionism or changes to the character of Rowboat Gorrilaman is going to change the perception of him.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 16:00:06


Post by: AegisGrimm


People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 16:10:35


Post by: jhe90


 AegisGrimm wrote:
People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.


We could but... I think we shall make our own up instead.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 16:25:37


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


The whole post-awakening storyline smacked of Mary Sue, but they were trying to make it more interesting than "Guilliman woke up and then went to Terra so he could talk to his dad and take command of the Imperium."

Think about what Guilliman means to the Imperium. After all this time, chaos was poised to finally just steamroll (more or less) everyone after the fall of Cadia. Well, they're not just gonna let that happen. Imagine the rage! Plus, no one faction should be "winning" at all. At the same time, given the nature of the conflicts in 40k, there's no reasonable way that anyone would survive multiple engagements with some of the strongest adversaries in the setting. So they let the nameless mooks die, otherwise they lose a character that will make them money.

When a daemon like Skarbrand can just come back every time he's killed, of course Guilliman is going to win the fight. Same with Magnus, same with whomever.

Now, it would be great if they could just write about him losing a battle once in a while, I think that would make the setting more interesting. I know he's a tactical genius and our spiritual liege, but there are some fights you just can't win... unless you're Guilliman, I guess.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 16:30:13


Post by: ZebioLizard2


The thing is he only won that fight with Magnus because he was being backed up by Sisters of Silence, he lost against Kairos Fateweaver earlier.

And the Skarbrand fight had him backed up by Grey Knights.. It's not like he was 1v1 dueling these things.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 17:30:50


Post by: darkcloak


Well actually Roboute seems to be doing the opposite of Mary Sue-ing in that he is actually going out and doing stuff. So, not sure where the appellation comes from...

It's not like he is awake and just hanging out at Ultramar eating grapes while bards sing his imaginary praise. He's out there stomping stuff.

Also, pretty hard to make fun of someone for being a retconned windbag if they haven't been retconned yet... It's not like the writers are going back and saying look at all Roboute did, handing the achievements of other characters to him to call his own.

So, Mary Sue accusations completely tanked. As a guy who thinks that spiritual liege stuff is bunk and bad writing, I'm actually glad the Ultramarines are doing what they're doing. Like the writers are actually trying to justify the UM love and trying to shed that Mat Ward era hatred.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 17:33:08


Post by: locarno24


In fairness, Smurf Junior (Calgar) battered An'Grath 1v1 in the Blood Oath sourcebook.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 20:23:50


Post by: ZebioLizard2


locarno24 wrote:
In fairness, Smurf Junior (Calgar) battered An'Grath 1v1 in the Blood Oath sourcebook.
So did Lorgar who at the time wasn't empowered by the Chaos Gods and thus the weakest brother.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 20:34:08


Post by: Luciferian


Robby G is an expedient plot device. It would have taken much more effort for fewer model sales to attribute the upswing in the IoM's fortunes to the effort of many in more complex cicumstances; it's more convenient to have a few heroes, with Robby G as kind of a figurehead. Unfortunately, GW's model doesn't really favor complex story telling at the moment. Which also probably means more Mary Sues with their own disproportionate share of glory are on their way.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 20:47:14


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 20:55:50


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.


Because Leman Russ popping out of the Warp totally wouldn't have been a Deus Ex Machina...


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 21:34:20


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


And the Eldar coming to wake up Girlyman isn't an Ex Machina.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the book is making Girlyman seem like a boss, the daemon saying I am death and him saying 'I've killed everyone who claims to be death' he didn't act so tough against Fulgrim or after Angron battered him and he literally crawled away from him on his hands and knees.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 21:47:30


Post by: nekooni


 jhe90 wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.


We could but... I think we shall make our own up instead.


Yeah, and it's fun, just like with that British actor, Bumblebee Crumplepie or something like that


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 21:57:04


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


His name is Girlyman, Girly by name Girly by nature.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:03:05


Post by: pm713


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.


Because Leman Russ popping out of the Warp totally wouldn't have been a Deus Ex Machina...

It would have been less of one seeing as he wasn't dead.

The first one back should have been the Lion which would actually make sense. But that's not the GW way!


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:05:06


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:34:58


Post by: BrianDavion


Gulliman makes perfect sense for the first to come abck for several reasons.

1: His title as lord Commander makes it a bit easier for the ENTIRE IOM to use him so if the IoM has a single Primarch, Gulliman's a bit better as his field of vision is wider.
2: He's more useful at tweeking the IoM in general, Lemen Russ lacks the inclination or authority to do so.just for example.
3: his return was something they could wrap into a Quest. Lemen Russ showing up during the fenris fight woulda just been a deus ex machina, gulliman they managed to make a story out of.

and thats how primarch returns SHOULD be handled not... "OMG! GRIM DOOM OHH PRIAMRCH IS EHRE BATTLE WON" but rather the primarch's return should BE the story, Gulliman wasn't just the character but he was also the mcgruffin.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:35:38


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


ZebioLizard2 wrote:The thing is he only won that fight with Magnus because he was being backed up by Sisters of Silence, he lost against Kairos Fateweaver earlier.

And the Skarbrand fight had him backed up by Grey Knights.. It's not like he was 1v1 dueling these things.


Did the dude even take a wound? A single scratch? I can't remember at this point, but I don't think it ever happened. Don't even get me started on being taken prisoner by Fateweaver. Wasn't tortured, wasn't roughed up at all, and why was he even taken prisoner at all? Some ridiculously convenient plot device, I'm sure.

darkcloak wrote:Well actually Roboute seems to be doing the opposite of Mary Sue-ing in that he is actually going out and doing stuff. So, not sure where the appellation comes from...

It's not like he is awake and just hanging out at Ultramar eating grapes while bards sing his imaginary praise. He's out there stomping stuff.

Also, pretty hard to make fun of someone for being a retconned windbag if they haven't been retconned yet... It's not like the writers are going back and saying look at all Roboute did, handing the achievements of other characters to him to call his own.

So, Mary Sue accusations completely tanked. As a guy who thinks that spiritual liege stuff is bunk and bad writing, I'm actually glad the Ultramarines are doing what they're doing. Like the writers are actually trying to justify the UM love and trying to shed that Mat Ward era hatred.


I don't particularly care about the "Mary Sue" trope or how it's defined. It isn't the hugest problem worthy of a ton of energy to get flustered about, but for whatever little it's worth I'm just not impressed with GW's storytelling when it comes to Guilliman. Really, that's the "big picture" fluff in general that involves these named characters. There is never any skin in the game. I guess Color Sergeant Kell would love to disagree with me, right?

I have no problems with Guilliman himself as a character. He isn't flawless, he's introspective, he's a good leader; I think he was the right choice to be the first to return. It's just... eh, I dunno, just not my favorite brand of storytelling they continually employ.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:37:33


Post by: pm713


BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman makes perfect sense for the first to come abck for several reasons.

1: His title as lord Commander makes it a bit easier for the ENTIRE IOM to use him so if the IoM has a single Primarch, Gulliman's a bit better as his field of vision is wider.
2: He's more useful at tweeking the IoM in general, Lemen Russ lacks the inclination or authority to do so.just for example.
3: his return was something they could wrap into a Quest. Lemen Russ showing up during the fenris fight woulda just been a deus ex machina, gulliman they managed to make a story out of.

and thats how primarch returns SHOULD be handled not... "OMG! GRIM DOOM OHH PRIAMRCH IS EHRE BATTLE WON" but rather the primarch's return should BE the story, Gulliman wasn't just the character but he was also the mcgruffin.

1. Former title. The dead lack authority.
2. The Lion would be better as he's alive.
3. The Lion could be the end of a quest without weird illogical Eldar intervention.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:45:36


Post by: AegisGrimm


Guilliman just seems like a Mary Sue because Abaddon should have been just as cool as him for the past 25 years of fluff but that never materialized. And in the Dark Imperium the two of them should be the ultimate arch-enemies at this point, being the overall supreme commanders of each opposing force. But unfortunately, since the fall of Cadia Abaddon has done exactly the opposite - nothing.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:48:35


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


Yeah, I was seriously expecting the CSM codex to expand a lot on what happened after the fall of Cadia.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:49:28


Post by: BrianDavion


1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 22:57:17


Post by: pm713


BrianDavion wrote:
1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength

1. For all intents and purposes the lore was he was dead.
2. But really was a more logical choice for a story and could have been part of a good one too.
3. It's bad because either Guilleman is an Eldar or sleeper or there was no reason for them to bring him back. The choice makes no sense except to push the Poster Chapter.

A better alternative that ties in with all the new factions would have been the Emperor commanding the Custodes to awaken the Lion, they and the SoS launch a crusade, Chaos intervenes with a Nurgle focus and then have them battling through. A much better story that has a logical Primarch, a reason for SoS and Custodes to be added to 40k instead of just GW wanting to sell novels and allows a decent chance for Nurgles new models to have the spotlight during release. With the bonus of other factions being able to be included. For example the Orks are drawn to the fight and seeing the Lion is helpful the Ynnari take them on as a distraction.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 23:18:59


Post by: BrianDavion


the elder motivations for awakening Gulliman are explained VERY well in GS2.
Basicly they need humanity to serve as a fighting force against chaos but that humanity was fethed. they needed a leader who could unite them into an effective force. Gulliman


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 23:25:07


Post by: pm713


BrianDavion wrote:
the elder motivations for awakening Gulliman are explained VERY well in GS2.
Basicly they need humanity to serve as a fighting force against chaos but that humanity was fethed. they needed a leader who could unite them into an effective force. Gulliman

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 23:42:34


Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy


pm713 wrote:

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.

In fairness the implication is that Guilliman won't be sufficient to actually bring the Imperium into an utterly superior position but just be enough to stymie Chaos. There's nothing to say that the Eldar know about or could wake up the Lion as far as I know.

I dislike a lot of the 8th Edition Fluff about Cawl and Guilliman but the reasoning for the Ynnari seems fair enough (especially considering reading the future is through probable occurrences rather than certainties).


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 23:49:54


Post by: pm713


SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.

In fairness the implication is that Guilliman won't be sufficient to actually bring the Imperium into an utterly superior position but just be enough to stymie Chaos. There's nothing to say that the Eldar know about or could wake up the Lion as far as I know.

I dislike a lot of the 8th Edition Fluff about Cawl and Guilliman but the reasoning for the Ynnari seems fair enough (especially considering reading the future is through probable occurrences rather than certainties).

If you can bring back the dead and transfigure Rubric's into normal Marines again you can find the Lion.

But there's still no reason for it to be Guilleman except writers fanboying. Not to mention Cawl. There are several other Primarchs that are much more logical but GW is nothing if not bad at writing.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/10 23:53:08


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:04:30


Post by: BrianDavion


 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?


I'm gonna guess dark angel fan upset he didn't get a primarch


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:05:54


Post by: pm713


 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?

It's bad writing because they made a stupid choice because they didn't use any kind of logic. They didn't bring the Primarch I wanted back because I wouldn't have brought any back. They were relics of a time of hope that faded a long time ago which was the whole settings point.

The point of logic is that it makes good storytelling which for GW should be hugely important because as many people will tell you Warhammer is not a good game rulewise. It depends significantly on its lore to draw and keep people in the game.

There are five living Primarchs. Anyone can logically be brought back with aid from the Emperor or a psyker by the Imperium. Of these I would personally choose the Lion or the Khan but which one is really not that important. Then to bring back this Primarch they should have made a story around it which is where they can introduce their new factions like Custodes and SoS and the newer Nurgle stuff. This also allows a chance for other factions to be in the story so you can include Xenos fans.

Instead they brought back a dead person which comes across as just more dumb love for the poster Chapter, makes Guilleman a Mary Sue, made up some random Mechanicus character to justify the cashgrab of the Primaris and just reversed the whole character of the setting. Then made more cashgrabs.

They made an illogical choice and let it roll into a terrible story that just gives the finger to anyone who cares about the lore. That's a terrible move for a company that depends on people liking lore and models to sell their games because they cannot do rules well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?


I'm gonna guess dark angel fan upset he didn't get a primarch

If I want to play with a Primarch I go and play 30k.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:06:24


Post by: Flinty


Any relation to Graeme Souness?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:20:03


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


Sounds like a whole lot of bitterness on your part as opposed to anything to do with logic, really.

You could just say "I hate the way they wrote it" and it would be fine, but there isn't really anything objective in what you're arguing.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:31:27


Post by: pm713


 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sounds like a whole lot of bitterness on your part as opposed to anything to do with logic, really.

You could just say "I hate the way they wrote it" and it would be fine, but there isn't really anything objective in what you're arguing.

Honestly it sounds more like you can't be bothered responding to anything I say.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 00:57:12


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


You'd prefer a certain set of things to have happened in the 40k narrative. Those things aren't what happened. You're frustrated about that. What exactly would you like me to respond to? Would you like me to give you my feelings on whether or not the things you wanted to happen would have been better than what we were given (i.e. the thing that matters)? Because I'm not really interested in that. Your preferences aren't super important to me, and I don't mean that as an insult. I wouldn't expect mine to be important to you either.

So far, every part of this discussion is subjective. That was my point. You were arguing as if there was some objective element to all of this, but nothing you wrote suggests that is true.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 01:48:36


Post by: Formosa


Alternative comments about dark imperium here.

I am reading the book at the moment and I must say that guiliman isn't coming across as Mary Sue at all, in fact he is coming across as a deeply flawed person who's personal screw ups are directly related to the imperium being in the current state it's in, his string of mistakes led to his death, which meant the imperium went down a much darker route than it would have had he lived, hell, some of the other primarchs would likely have stayed around had he lived, but his pride and rage stopped him doing the correct thing and retreating when ambushed by fulgrim, he knows this and is emotionally distraught over the fact.

None of that screams Mary Sue at all.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 02:31:20


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


Yeah, those are the more interesting aspects of the story and the character.

I guess there's a clear line between Black Library fiction and the whatchamacallit books from GW with Fall of Cadia and such. It takes a novel to develop character and get beyond "and then the heroes defeated their foes and moved on to the next location, and after a hard but mostly meaningless battle moved on to the next location to fight another battle" type thing.

I was just watching the Justice League movie a couple of hours ago, and got the same feelings. It's the solo hero movies versus the buddy team-ups where they must put their differences aside to defeat a numerically superior but ultimately faceless enemy through the power of teamwork.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 02:40:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 Formosa wrote:
Alternative comments about dark imperium here.

I am reading the book at the moment and I must say that guiliman isn't coming across as Mary Sue at all, in fact he is coming across as a deeply flawed person who's personal screw ups are directly related to the imperium being in the current state it's in, his string of mistakes led to his death, which meant the imperium went down a much darker route than it would have had he lived, hell, some of the other primarchs would likely have stayed around had he lived, but his pride and rage stopped him doing the correct thing and retreating when ambushed by fulgrim, he knows this and is emotionally distraught over the fact.

None of that screams Mary Sue at all.


Gulliman has ALWAYS in the novels been one of the better depicted primarchs IMHO reading Gulliman (Sanguinis is often another good example too except with more internal angst) it's easy to see what the primarchs are supposed to be, and why they where held in such high esteem.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 03:27:39


Post by: R0bcrt


Is it all that illogical though? I can think of a few compelling arguments on choosing Guiliman over the Lion.

The most obvious is in-universe knowledge. We know where the Lion is, but would the Eldar? The Dark Ángels are highly insular and they don’t exactly broadcast that the Lion is “here and ready to go, once he sleeps off the hangover that is the HH”. Meanwhile Roboute? He has/had millions of pilgrims lining up to see him in stasis, so he literally has a “Primarch Right Here!” sign. All the other Primarchs’ locations are unknown or known only to a select few, while Guilimans location is common knowledge to the people in the 40k universe. With that in mind I don’t see it that shocking that the Eldar went to him.



The second/2.5 point is distrust and the Eldar’s goals. I don’t see it as the Eldar’s best interest to bring the Lion back, at least not right away. The Ultramarines have enough of a history of being willing to listen xenos (Tau come to mind, uneasy and tension filled but still) while the Dark Angels less so. Had the Eldar arrived claiming they wanted to see the Lion I don’t see it ending well, they have killed so called Allies for less knowledge of them (it would trigger their fallen knee-jerk reaction basically).

Beyond this are the Primarchs personalities, because if the Eldar can meta game to know where the Lion is I don’t see how they wouldn’t know the following. The Lion is secretive, reclusive, and suspicious. It’s not to say Guiliman isn’t a political animal and incapable of lying and deceiving, but as an outside xenos faction picking a Primarch to be leader I’d pick Guiliman because he is much more open and honest. Combine that with the Watchers in the Dark. What are their motivations? Can the Eldar trust them to side with them? What’re they telling the Lion if the Eldar did bring him back? The Dark Angels can barely be trusted by other imperial factions as to their true motivations, so why would the Eldar? The Eldar’s end goal is to survive as a species, regardless of the route they choose (somehow integrate or betray the Imperium). Having said that, would you king-make a person who would be suspicious of you, never tell you his plans outside of the essentials, and have an unknown xenos species whispering in their ear all the while? I wouldn’t.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 03:30:17


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The writer of Dark Imperium used the 'the Primarch needs no protection' line from the World Eaters in reference to Angron. Well Girlyman sure as hell needed protection from Fulgrim and Angron come to think of it LOL




Rawbutt doesn't come close to approaching the level Mary Sue that existed during the Wardian Era. Case in point: Kaldor Draigo and the whole "AND THE GRATEST OF DEM ALL IS THE ULTRAMARINES"schtick.


At least he has the excuse that he is a Primarch.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 04:06:31


Post by: AegisGrimm


Also, Guilliman is the only easily accessible primarch that would be able and willing to unite a breaking Imperium. I mean, during the Heresy, who else that stayed loyal showed any inkling of doing work in that role? I'm a bit out of date on the fluff, but it seems all the rest had their own foibles and issues that led them to being unfit to anything larger than their own Legion command, except maybe Dorn.

At least Guilliman returning has been foreshadowed since 2nd edition, other than Russ returning from the Warp for the Wolftime - and even then you think the various fluff for 13th Company/Wulfen forces would have had some foreshadowing, as theoretically they are remnants of the actual marines that followed him into the Warp, so should know 'something' about his status and/or return, unless they all took a wrong turn and lost him.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 14:40:10


Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy


 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Rawbutt doesn't come close to approaching the level Mary Sue that existed during the Wardian Era. Case in point: Kaldor Draigo and the whole "AND THE GRATEST OF DEM ALL IS THE ULTRAMARINES"schtick.

At least he has the excuse that he is a Primarch.

Guilliman is so important he warps the setting around him. He's brought back by xenos and is making massive changes to the Imperium but that's okay because the Emperor has outright backed him and made him acting-Emperor. Any interesting conflict about him returning has been shut down because the Emperor has said to follow him. It's so disappointing. The most anyone can do is secretly resist what he's trying to do. Not to mention the galaxy getting split in half, all this talk about how difficult it is to cross the Great Scar, and then he just does so on his big crusade at least twice and swings back to Ultramar in time to defend it. Draigo was a (admittedly poorly written) Sisyphean character whose actions bore little consequence. Guilliman is far more intrusive in the setting.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 16:36:54


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.
Predictable? At least it's not straight out of the blue. It's been hinted as a possibility for decades, for feth's sake - him, Russ and Lion have been the best contenders for coming back - you're just salty they chose the one you don't personally like, or is "cool" to hate, because "Ward, amirite!", despite 5th edition being 10 years ago.

Russ coming back would have been more of a deus-ex (as I'll cite below), and his impact on the setting would be minimal. That could be a good thing, not shifting the status quo, but as 40k's going, Guilliman was the best to shift it. Actual political acumen - check. Previous vendettas and responsibilities to deal with - check. Internal struggle and conflict - check. He's a far better rounded character than Lion, and Russ is barely a character. He's more of a concept, a literal deus-ex. At least the Lion has some personality.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:And the Eldar coming to wake up Girlyman isn't an Ex Machina.
Except it's not.
The Eldar revived Guilliman with the recently-invented tech of Cawl, and did it because Chaos had so fundamentally changed the playing field, they needed a new way to boost the Imperim's strength. Guilliman was accessible readily, had prior experience in ruling the Imperium, and was the most likely to ally with the Eldar. A perfect fit.

Russ coming back would literally have been "he found his way out". No reason why, no explanation, just "he did, bc THE WARP".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the book is making Girlyman seem like a boss, the daemon saying I am death and him saying 'I've killed everyone who claims to be death' he didn't act so tough against Fulgrim or after Angron battered him and he literally crawled away from him on his hands and knees.
Every Primarch has done that. Your point?

Guilliman is completely in character to say that too - have you read any of the 30k stuff with him in? Stoic, witty retorts are kind of his thing.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:His name is Girlyman, Girly by name Girly by nature.
And now you're going to use a bastardised version of his name to act as an insult?

Such class. Much educated. Very wow.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.
Howso?

Russ would go back to his hearth and kill more stuff. Very... interesting.
Corax would have no experience leading and probably hide in the shadows, killing a handful of powerful leaders occasionally.
Lion would pretty much become Horus 2.0 and try to lord it over the Imperium with no actual tact or ability. This would be interesting, but frankly a little dull and stagnant.
Dorn would make a beeline for Perturabo and probably fortify things until it reached the stratosphere. Not exactly interesting.

Guilliman has the ambition, acumen and personality to create waves in the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength

1. For all intents and purposes the lore was he was dead.
Except for all the parts where GW said he wasn't, that he was rumoured to be healing, that he was saved at the last minute...

You know, just as dead as Russ, the Lion, Khan, Corax, and Vulkan. Are they all dead too then?

2. But really was a more logical choice for a story and could have been part of a good one too.
How was Lion more logical than Guilliman? They were both alive but absent, both military leaders (one strategically the other logistically), and had axes to grind. Only Guilliman's axe was one that HE forged, and was his character flaw. That's a far better story than "oh yeah, I have some renegades in my legion that haven't really done anything one the scale of the actual traitor legions, better go hunt them down".

3. It's bad because either Guilleman is an Eldar or sleeper or there was no reason for them to bring him back. The choice makes no sense except to push the Poster Chapter.
Or, it's because Guilliman was the best option they had as a figurehead for the Imperium?

Are you ignoring that maybe GW wanted the Imperium to have a figurehead a la Abaddon or Ghazkull who people could field in game, and wanted to bring back a Primarch? If that's your goal, why NOT Guilliman?

A better alternative that ties in with all the new factions would have been the Emperor commanding the Custodes to awaken the Lion, they and the SoS launch a crusade, Chaos intervenes with a Nurgle focus and then have them battling through. A much better story that has a logical Primarch, a reason for SoS and Custodes to be added to 40k instead of just GW wanting to sell novels and allows a decent chance for Nurgles new models to have the spotlight during release. With the bonus of other factions being able to be included. For example the Orks are drawn to the fight and seeing the Lion is helpful the Ynnari take them on as a distraction.
Why is the Lion most logical? You're just throwing the word around without explaining it. Why is the Lion more logical than Guilliman?

How is yours any different from the current setpiece, except it's Lion, not RG?

How do the Custodes know about the Lion? Why do the DA let them in? After all, that's where they keep the Fallen prisoners.
The Custodes and SoS still enter the same in both ways - it's just someone else telling them to get off their behinds. No difference there.
Nurgle models take spotlight either way. No difference.
Orks are included in just the same way - there's no reason why you can fluff your Orks to be doing just that. No difference.

The Ynnari did that in the current canon, except actually had a purpose in this narrative - in yours, they're just tacked on. In yours, it's "The IoM sorted their problems out for some reason. We'll tag along". Currently, it's more like "Chaos got stronger. We'll actively improve the IoM by helping them get a leader back, and in doing so, actively save ourselves". From a story perspective, the current version is more interesting, purely because the Eldar actually affect the plot, you can't just pretend they did nothing like in yours.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 17:16:33


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Because the Lion or Russ cannot be good statesmen is a great reason to have them come back first. It would be far more interesting than Girlyman coming back and just being a little Emperor. There would be far more dynamic story telling with the others. I'm not salty, I don't collect loyalists. All Primarchs coming back is an ex-machina.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 17:42:32


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because the Lion or Russ cannot be good statesmen is a great reason to have them come back first. It would be far more interesting than Girlyman coming back and just being a little Emperor. There would be far more dynamic story telling with the others.
Would there? Russ wouldn't even attempt anything other than beating the tar out of the nearest threat. How does that add anything to the story?

Lion, now that's a good chance for something. He is certainly one of my top picks, alongside for Guilliman. Realistically, I don't think I'd had a Primarch return myself, but considering GW wants that, that's a moot point. Out of anything that could come back, Guilliman and Lion are the best picks for their nature to do affect the plot more than "I beat up this guy". Lion can stir up the IoM, Guilliman can unite it. Considering GW clearly wants to unite the IoM (for better or worse), Guilliman is the best pick.

Guilliman certainly doesn't lack for character himself. Idealistically driven, his ideas taken too far, his position tarnished by unworthy rulers - that's a lot for him to take in. Lion has had none of that, being knocked out of the Heresy since Caliban blew up. Guilliman has a position that he's fallen from, a redemption/reclamation arc for him. Lion would have no emotional connection beyond his own desire.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 17:46:30


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Because Russ would be forced to be a statesmen and that would be interesting, seeing him struggle with that, same with the lion, Girlyman is made for it, it isn't an interesting dynamic. He's doing what he always did, its predictable. Its contrived, Girlyman was the first because the first will have the most authority, they've set it up for Girlyman to be a Mary Sue.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 17:55:35


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because Russ would be forced to be a statesmen and that would be interesting, seeing him struggle with that, same with the lion, Girlyman is made for it, it isn't an interesting dynamic. He's doing what he always did, its predictable.
Would he be forced? Vulkan wasn't. He just went ahead, fought the Beast, and went MIA. I can see most Primarchs doing exactly the same - the only few I actually see taking up the mantle of the Emperor's Regent would be Guilliman, Lion, Dorn (if alive) and Sanguinius (if he wasn't crystallized on Horus' flagship). The rest I don't see leading the Imperium - they'd abdicate responsibility or deal with their own affairs. Russ would care more for Fenris and Magnus than the IoM, unlike the above.

Guilliman's works because he's responsible for many issues the IoM faces. He's forced to go back and amend his own mistakes, compromise on his own beliefs and morals - aka, character development.

I'm not saying the Lion's doesn't work, but in terms of sheer story potential, Guilliman has far more to work with. He wouldn't have been a bad choice, but not as good as Guilliman, IMO.

Russ I really don't support in this. I don't mind him coming back, but not as a leader figure - that's just not him. If he was second or third to come back, that's a different matter, but I'm glad he didn't come first.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 17:58:56


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:07:07


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable. Russ became the leader of a planet that HAD no real politics. It was "might made right" on Fenris - not politics.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:09:32


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:10:56


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.
What makes that story element better than character development for Guilliman, if Russ isn't actually going to develop as a character?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:13:13


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Because they are bloody Primarchs, they are better than men at 'everything'. And Russ' barbarianism is just an illusion, why do you think Russ made his prospected captains become wolfblades, learning politics in Terra? You don't know what Vulkan is up to and what he is doing.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:15:35


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.
What makes that story element better than character development for Guilliman, if Russ isn't actually going to develop as a character?

I didn't say that was a better story than Guilliman I said it was an idea for Russ interacting with the High Lords. You can pretty easily have Russ develop when he has to interact with them.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:28:09


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Delvarus Centurion wrote:Because they are bloody Primarchs, they are better than men at 'everything'. And Russ' barbarianism is just an illusion, why do you think Russ made his prospected captains become wolfblades, learning politics in Terra? You don't know what Vulkan is up to and what he is doing.
We know that Vulkan was rediscovered during the War of the Beast, and was never seen or heard of again. We don't know what he's doing, but we know what he ISN'T doing - leading the Imperium.

Russ's barbarism being an "illusion" is personally a terrible part of his characterisation. It's that which makes him, in my personal opinion, more egregious than Guilliman. Simultaneously, he is savage and ruthless, a wild hunter and predator, but also serene and making his enemies THINK he's just a wild animal, but also he embraces those natures when not on the battlefield, and ugh. It's a mess of character design, trying to make him too many stereotypes at once.
Russ sent his wolfblades to Terra to protect House Belisarius - not for politics. He did so so that he'd always have Navigators from a very well-off house, and they get protection and a small military force in the form of Space Wolves assigned to them.

They're not there to learn politics. They're there to act as a bodyguard.

If Primarchs were better than men at everything, no matter what Primarch, then why is Lord Solar Macharius so renowned? Sebastian Thor? Not to mention that Russ would be very quickly bogged down by the Administratum machine without the organisational skills of someone more used to it (aka, High Lords and Guilliman).

pm713 wrote:I didn't say that was a better story than Guilliman I said it was an idea for Russ interacting with the High Lords. You can pretty easily have Russ develop when he has to interact with them.
Fair enough - again, I feel that Russ' story should be more of a vengeance arc than Guilliman's redemption/reclamation arc, personally.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 18:32:50


Post by: pm713


Wolfblades are sent to Terra as a way to both get rid of weird Space Wolves and to help them learn politics. At least by 40k they are.

People like Macharius are renowned because they were very good at their job.

I'd like a vengeance arc quite a lot actually.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 19:32:03


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


No all prospected captains went to Terra, to protect the house of Belisarius and to learn politics if you read the book and not simply looked up lexicanum, you'd understand that there were constant politicking and wars between the navigator houses. Learning the politics of Terra was the most important point in that book. Most wolfblades were sent as punishment or because their geneseed didn't take properly or they were outcasts etc. but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 19:47:36


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:Wolfblades are sent to Terra as a way to both get rid of weird Space Wolves and to help them learn politics. At least by 40k they are.
Where is it they learn politics? Can I have a quote, or reference, please?

People like Macharius are renowned because they were very good at their job.
Better than many Primarchs, in fact. Hence my point - Primarchs can be damn good, usually are, but not all Primarchs are equal, and many humans CAN outmatch them in certain things (strategy, diplomacy, arcana).

I'd like a vengeance arc quite a lot actually.
That's fair enough - I personally wouldn't want that, at least, not right now, purely because of the saturation of vengeance plotlines in 40k. Actual character development a la Guilliman is rare by comparison.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:No all prospected captains went to Terra, to protect the house of Belisarius and to learn politics if you read the book and not simply looked up lexicanum, you'd understand that there were constant politicking and wars between the navigator houses. Most wolfblades were sent as punishment or because their geneseed didn't take properly or they were outcasts etc. but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade
Again, I'll ask above - where does it tell you that Space Wolves sent as part of the Wolfblade become good politicians? Quote or reference, please.
All I see is that they're there to act as an honour guard for the Navigators. Not to learn politics. As an honour guard, they can palm off their unrulier members there.

Also, quote on "nearly all Captains" - Wolf Priest Ranek says that "many" great Space Wolf leaders were once Wolfblades, but that would imply only a minority of Captains/Wolf Lords. So, source on yours, please?

Again, I don't doubt that SOME Space Wolves get a better grasp of politics. It's confirmed by Ranek. However, I do disagree that it's the reason why Russ sent men to them. If that were so, then we'd see far more volunteers. When there's only been one volunteer (Tobin), it's far less likely that it's the case.
Russ created it as a bodyguard to ensure reinforcement. It was seen as a dud post, but offered the potential advantage for members to become more versed in politics. Not all, and certainly not the intended function, however.

Besides, I'm not talking about Space Wolves. I'm talking about Russ. Just because he's their Primarch, that doesn't make him better in every aspect than his sons. Politics is something we don't see Russ demonstrate a good awareness or ability in.

That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.
Sorry, what?
How does that make any sense?

We KNOW Vulkan isn't leading the Imperium. That;s because Guilliman is. We know Vulkan never led the Imperium, ever when he was the only returned Primarch. Hell, he deferred authority to an Imperial Fist CAPTAIN. It's absolutely likely that certain Primarchs wouldn't take up the leadership mantle, and Russ doesn't seem like he'd WANT to rule any more than his own Chapter.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:05:31


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Wolfblade p43 the full quote is 'and Ragnar, one more thing...' 'Many Great Space Wolf leaders have been wolfblades. It has us no harm to have warriors who know how the Imperium works and who have personal contacts with its hierarchy' Ranek to Ragnarr. That you asked that question just shows that you didn't read the book.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:25:19


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wolfblade p43 the full quote is 'and Ragnar, one more thing...' 'Many Great Space Wolf leaders have been wolfblades. It has us no harm to have warriors who know how the Imperium works and who have personal contacts with its hierarchy' Ranek to Ragnarr. That you asked that question just shows that you didn't read the book.
Yes, I quoted that to you. Now, allow me to pick out what your quote says:
"Many Great Space Wolf leaders"

Emphasis mine.

Many. Not all, not even anywhere CLOSE to what you claimed about "but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade". So, either you're missing something in that quote (which I already mentioned in that exact same question, funnily enough), or you're wrong about all captains being politicians.

And again - I'm not talking about politician Wolf Lords. I'm talking about Russ, and how A, the Wolfblade wasn't created for the purpose of political training (it was a positive side effect for SOME Space Wolves) and B, Russ himself wasn't a consummate politician.

Can you prove otherwise?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:29:02


Post by: Iracundus


pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.


And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:48:23


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Well I am right in that they are sent their to learn politics so what if I said nearly all instead of many. At least I am debating about a book I actually read. I never said the wolfblade was created for that, I said it was used for that. I said prospective captains were sent their to learn politics, not the kind of thing someone who is not politically inclined to do. Then you were arguing against that even though you've never read Wolfblade, it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:50:34


Post by: Lance845


Iracundus wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.


And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?


The Imperium is run that way RIGHT NOW. It's called Heresy. If you don't do what the Imperium tells you to do at best you get BLAM!ed and at worst you get locked in a room with creepy psykers who will tear your mind apart to see every person you have interacted with so they can be killed as well so ensure that your heresy hasn't spread.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 20:51:25


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


"And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?"





Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 21:12:07


Post by: Iracundus


 Lance845 wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.


And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?


The Imperium is run that way RIGHT NOW. It's called Heresy. If you don't do what the Imperium tells you to do at best you get BLAM!ed and at worst you get locked in a room with creepy psykers who will tear your mind apart to see every person you have interacted with so they can be killed as well so ensure that your heresy hasn't spread.


The Imperium has that stick, but it also has the carrot of promised material aid from the rest of the Imperium, wealth and power for those that cooperate, and also the promise of an afterlife with the Emperor. No society runs on sticks with no carrots.

While all the Primarchs were intelligent, enough to unify their own societies, their nature and interests steered their focus, and many of them seemed to leave secular administration as an afterthought, beyond ensuring resources were available to supply their war machine and whatever their particular pet interests were.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 21:21:16


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


The argument is going in the wrong direction. I said that Russ is one of the least effective in being a statement and that is why I wanted him to come back because its more interesting. We seem to have moved the argument to debating whether he 'could'.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 21:31:28


Post by: pm713


Iracundus wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.
Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.


And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?

Can I have a quote or something about Guilliman making a mini empire? What I read was pretty clear on the fact that Maccrage had got through the Age of Strife pretty well and had decent connections and industry well before Guilliman arrived. He didn't make a great society or anything he inherited it. Fulgrim is a much better example of remaking a world from what I know.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 21:46:57


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


I never said he was making a mini-smpire, I said he was a mini-emperor.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 21:48:16


Post by: pm713


I was referring to what Iracundus said. I could have been clearer about that.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:14:39


Post by: Bulldogging


Honestly he should have died when he went 1 on 1 versus Daemon Magnus. Dude has a golden horseshoe up his ass.




Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:15:42


Post by: Spetulhu


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.


Which is ofc true, but he usually put all his intelligence into warfare. Why would he care one fig about politics or reforms beyond what's needed for him to get a few crusades to lead into glorious combat? The High Lords would be happy to name him Imperial Warmaster and supply him troops just to keep him out of the way, and he'd be happy to go out and make war on whatever faction irritates him the most this week.

But granted, he IS smart - he would probably be able to pick out good people (for him) to run things he's not interested in. Russ returning could have brought in a whole host of interesting support characters doing the boring stuff.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:27:29


Post by: Bulldogging


Spetulhu wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.


Which is ofc true, but he usually put all his intelligence into warfare. Why would he care one fig about politics or reforms beyond what's needed for him to get a few crusades to lead into glorious combat? The High Lords would be happy to name him Imperial Warmaster and supply him troops just to keep him out of the way, and he'd be happy to go out and make war on whatever faction irritates him the most this week.

But granted, he IS smart - he would probably be able to pick out good people (for him) to run things he's not interested in. Russ returning could have brought in a whole host of interesting support characters doing the boring stuff.


I don't know. Russ was pretty easily controlled by the forces of chaos. Not really the greatest guy to be in charge of the imperium.

Vulkan or Corax(out of the guys who probably-maybe aren't dead) would have made interesting stories though.







Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:50:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Delvarus Centurion wrote:Well I am right in that they are sent their to learn politics so what if I said nearly all instead of many. At least I am debating about a book I actually read. I never said the wolfblade was created for that, I said it was used for that. I said prospective captains were sent their to learn politics, not the kind of thing someone who is not politically inclined to do. Then you were arguing against that even though you've never read Wolfblade, it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it.
You're taking this away from my point. If anyone's "arguing for the sake of it", I'd argue it's not me.

You're incorrect in your first statement. They're NOT sent there to learn politics, except for a minority who are singled out for leadership. The PRIMARY intended function of the Wolfblade is to bodyguard the Navigator House. That's the reason Russ created it - not to teach his commanders politics. In fact, I don't think there's a single instance of Russ sending a captain out for political training - it seems like a decision made post-Russ. Unless you can prove that.

Again, attacking me (not the argument) for apparently not reading a book? And you can 100% say I haven't because... how?
If I have read it, that dismantles this attack on me.
If I haven't, then I've already shown you up by correcting you on a quote you tried to prove yourself correct with.

And no, I have read it. It's just been a while, and I didn't take it with me when I travelled.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.
Intelligent enough to burn Prospero?

I'm not saying he's stupid, but a thinker or strategiser like Guilliman or the Lion he ain't. And that's the kind of thinker you need to run an empire. Not a hunter/lapdog/executioner.

Again, you haven't dealt with my Vulkan argument.

pm713 wrote:Can I have a quote or something about Guilliman making a mini empire? What I read was pretty clear on the fact that Maccrage had got through the Age of Strife pretty well and had decent connections and industry well before Guilliman arrived. He didn't make a great society or anything he inherited it. Fulgrim is a much better example of remaking a world from what I know.
Are you referring to the Imperium Secundus? The Five Hundred Worlds? In the 5th edition Codex, it makes reference to Guilliman overthrowing Gallan (the guy who murdered his father) and converting Macragge into a meritocracy, which is a marked improvement.
Again, Guilliman didn't create so much of a drastic change as Fulgrim did, but his end result was better than any other Primarch's - the Emperor did make a particular note of Guilliman's skill in governship.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:53:15


Post by: Dysartes


pm713 wrote:
There are five living Primarchs.


Care to cite your source on that, dude? Assuming you're referring to loyalist Primarchs, the only two who was confirmed as dead were Ferrus Manus & Sanguinius, leaving seven with no body seen on screen - Guilliman has been confirmed as slowly healing since the 2nd ed Codex: Ultramarines, at the very least.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 22:57:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Dysartes wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There are five living Primarchs.


Care to cite your source on that, dude? Assuming you're referring to loyalist Primarchs, the only two who was confirmed as dead were Ferrus Manus & Sanguinius, leaving seven with no body seen on screen - Guilliman has been confirmed as slowly healing since the 2nd ed Codex: Ultramarines, at the very least.
Assuming they only mean Loyalist, then this is my take.

Guilliman - very much alive, albeit supported.
Russ - MIA in the Warp. Probably alive.
Lion - In the Rock, alive.
Vulkan - Was alive at the time of the Beast. Seeing as he's still Perpetual (I think), probably alive but MIA.
Dorn - MIA, assumed dead.
Khan - MIA, assumed alive.
Corax - MIA, assumed alive.

The only one who's more likely dead than alive is Dorn. The rest are probably alive, in various states of wellness.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:03:16


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


They are sent there to learn politics, jesus you haven't even read the bloody book. You are complete wrong. I said prospective captains, so people who are earmarked for leadership . You are grasping at straws so that you aren't wrong. I never said Russ created the Wolfblade for that reason. I said he used it for educating his warriors earmarked for leadership and now you are using the strawman to say I said thats why he created it, because I proved you wrong in that, it is used to educate Russ' warriors. I can 100% say you didn't read the book because the main reason for the book is for Ragnar to learn politics. You'd know his accomplishments as a bloodclaw; Grimnar used his punishment as going to the Wolfblade to ease the other captains and to use it for educating him. You have not read the book. You forget things in books and make mistakes about certain things but you don't get the main plot of the book wrong. Okay how did Ragnar kill the assassin? What did Horgar constantly do, what did he look like and why, what was his weapon of choice and how did he fight? What did Torin look like. Why was it hard to protect Gabriella Belisarius in the end and why was her enemy trying to kill her? And the wolfblade were created during the great crusade which you'd also know.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:03:16


Post by: Dysartes


I tend to rely on the comic-book approach to death - unless the corpse is shown (or, in the case of a novel, described), assume the character isn't dead yet...


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:06:28


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Dysartes wrote:
I tend to rely on the comic-book approach to death - unless the corpse is shown (or, in the case of a novel, described), assume the character isn't dead yet...


Even then, that corpse needs to be dismembered and DNA tested.

And then there could always be a clone.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:27:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They are sent there to learn politics, jesus you haven't even read the bloody book. You are complete wrong. I said prospective captains, so people who are earmarked for leadership . You are grasping at straws so that you aren't wrong. I never said Russ created the Wolfblade for that reason. I said he used it for educating his warriors earmarked for leadership and now you are using the strawman to say I said thats why he created it, because I proved you wrong in that, it is used to educate Russ' warriors. I can 100% say you didn't read the book because the main reason for the book is for Ragnar to learn politics. You'd know his accomplishments as a bloodclaw; Grimnar used his punishment as going to the Wolfblade to ease the other captains and to use it for educating him. You have not read the book. You forget things in books and make mistakes about certain things but you don't get the main plot of the book wrong. Okay how did Ragnar kill the assassin? What did Horgar constantly do, what did he look like and why, what was his weapon of choice and how did he fight? What did Torin look like. Why was it hard to protect Gabriella Belisarius in the end and why was her enemy trying to kill her? And the wolfblade were created during the great crusade which you'd also know.
Look, you're focusing so hard on this one point, would you like to debate it in PMs? You're clearly ignoring the rest of my argument and focusing on this one thing which is, at best, an auxiliary point to support Russ being politically minded.

I'm not going to respond to this in this thread. I'm happy to reply elsewhere. PM me if you want me to respond, please.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:37:06


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


I dealt with your Vulken argument, We don't know what Vulken is doing at the moment, so just that He's not involved in Imperium politics does not mean that the Primarchs not politically inclined are not going to come back and lead the Imperium, Its not a valid argument so I haven't bothered dealing with it. If he cared about his warriors being politically minded then he is obviously thought enough about politics himself, he never had an empire to look over like Girlyman, so we don't know about his capability but you are ignoring the fact that I began my argument by saying that he wasn't politically minded, you are so argumentative that you said he wasn't at all, which there is no evidence for that whatsoever. You want to PM me because I'm pointing out that you are debating a book that you haven't read. There is no reason to PM. I have been debating because its fun but you are so argumentative for the sake of argumentativeness and not being proven wrong. You'd argue the colour of gak.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:38:40


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.

I think Guilliman coming back first will make the Lion's return more interesting than it would be otherwise. If the Lion comes back first he just... does what Guilliman is doing, basically, if he comes back second he gets the opportunity to question if this is Imperium Secundus 2.0.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/11 23:51:02


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I dealt with your Vulken argument, We don't know what Vulken is doing at the moment, so just that He's not involved in Imperium politics does not mean that the Primarchs not politically inclined are not going to come back and lead the Imperium, Its not a valid argument so I haven't bothered dealing with it. If he cared about his warriors being politically minded then he is obviously thought enough about politics himself, he never had an empire to look over like Girlyman, so we don't know about his capability but you are ignoring the fact that I began my argument by saying that he wasn't politically minded, you are so argumentative that you said he wasn't at all, which there is no evidence for that whatsoever. You want to PM me because I'm pointing out that you are debating a book that you haven't read. There is no reason to PM. I have been debating because its fun but you are so argumentative for the sake of argumentativeness and not being proven wrong. You'd argue the colour of gak.
Seriously, this is getting close to a personal attack, and definitely off topic.

PM, if you want to carry on about Wolfblade. I'm saying no more of it.

I don't think you have argued your Vulkan point - the last thing either of us said was this exchange:

That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.
Sorry, what?
How does that make any sense?

We KNOW Vulkan isn't leading the Imperium. That;s because Guilliman is. We know Vulkan never led the Imperium, ever when he was the only returned Primarch. Hell, he deferred authority to an Imperial Fist CAPTAIN. It's absolutely likely that certain Primarchs wouldn't take up the leadership mantle, and Russ doesn't seem like he'd WANT to rule any more than his own Chapter.


As we see, you haven't made any attempt to refute my point. Unless you do concede it, which is fair enough.
The Vulkan point relies on the logic that even though Vulkan returned, he made no attempt to deal in the Imperium politically. None. He deferred it to a normal Space Marine. If that's the case, it creates precedence for Primarchs to be in the Imperium but not rule it - as I claimed for Russ.

So, back on topic - I don't believe Russ would engage in the politics of Terra. Why?
Because it's feasible for Primarchs to simply not do that (see, Vulkan)
Because Russ has had no actual political leanings (being smart doesn't make one a politician)
Because Russ' first action would most likely be to hunt down Magnus with as many Space Wolves as he could muster.

As a story, that sounds very dull and samey - another "Wrath of Magnus" type, yay. Nothing will change narratively, I would bet, aside from maybe the Planet of the Sorcerors being destroyed and Magnus flying away screaming "I'll get you next tiiiiiiiiime!" Again, mostly my opinion, so absolutely not fact, and certainly just a hypothesis on the actual events, but I personally believe that Guilliman's has given us more to chew on than nearly any other Primarch, barring Lion.



Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 00:20:18


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual. Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty As for his intelligence, I was replying to someone else and only to point out that he wasn't a barbarian bit Russ was without doubt wise. Also Girlyman didn't come back and say I'll lead, It was the Emperor that told him what to do, when he was given the Emps sword. Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 00:58:21


Post by: BrianDavion


after the emperor died Gulliman was made de facto leader of the IoM, none of the other primarchs where involved, OR stepped up after Gulliman "died" we can conclude that most wheren't intreasted


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 01:16:13


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


We can conclude that or we conclude that they left it to the person best fitted for that role or that they were accepting that he was 'made' the de jure (not de facto) leader


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 01:55:17


Post by: YeOldSaltPotato


So head's up, the lot of this is spoilers for dark imperium and how it was a far better book than this site gives it credit, and how it's characters are being blatantly misrepresented. Go read it, only space marine centric book to keep my attention in since heresy started hard covers. Or at least don't complain that I'm spoiling things in my post, you've been warned.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Guilliman is so important he warps the setting around him. He's brought back by xenos and is making massive changes to the Imperium but that's okay because the Emperor has outright backed him and made him acting-Emperor.


And in so stripping Gulli of any illusions he had of a father son relationship, saddling one of twenty generals with the job of being emperor, and he picked one of the ones who's aware he may not be able to manage it.

Any interesting conflict about him returning has been shut down because the Emperor has said to follow him. It's so disappointing.


Which is clearly why they're taking over a hundred years to effectively re-conquer the 500 world of Ultimar that more or less belong to him anyway.

The most anyone can do is secretly resist what he's trying to do.


And by secretly resist, you mean full scale war and indepenence movements up his own ass due to the duress his wars have placed on the common citizen.

Not to mention the galaxy getting split in half, all this talk about how difficult it is to cross the Great Scar, and then he just does so on his big crusade at least twice and swings back to Ultramar in time to defend it.


By some real interesting definitions of in time, but if anything is going to make it across the great scar would it not be a crusade lead by a Primarch?


If you actually read this stuff, not much has changed. The imperium is still screwed up, much of it in worse ways than it was before, things aren't much better for the common person or soldier, all that's happening slightly better is the imperial military response and planning. There are seeds of doubt and disagreement sown with every action he's taken. There are massive risks to trusting Cawl. Half the galaxy is now a demon's playground, and two demon primarchs are back screwing with him because they find it funny.

Dark Imperium features better written primarchs than most of the first half of the published heresy books. And I limit it to there because scars seems quite good after picking it up after Dark Imperium rekindled my interest.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 02:16:07


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc. Girlyman in Dark Imperium was posed as Mary Sue in comparison to the early representations. I liked the parts of his realisation that the Emperor only treats the Primarchs as weapons and his enmity with the Emperor, his failure leaving Ultramar to humans to rule etc. But yet again GW have set him and the ultramarines up as being not only no.1 but Girlyman is now head of the Imperium etc. Its so contrived its not funny. Matt Ward is literally fapping. They could have done it so much better, they could of brought Dorn and Girlyman back and see them fighting for control, they could have had Russ or the Lion to lead and see them struggling to lead, but no, they did the most pedestrian and predictable poster boys thing. Just so boring. Its one reason I don't collect loyalists. Chaos is far more interesting.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 02:19:01


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


I suggest you go back and reread the first books. I loved them when they came out and now, well they are somewhat lacking and humorous in their portrayals.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 02:23:50


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Well they would be humorous before the heresy, Dorn was depicted as a rage hound, constantly angry to the point of not seeing sense, Fulgrim obsessed with perfection so much that he felt like a failure all the time, The Lion and his treatment of Zaherial There were few books at the beginning that were designated to Primarchs though, I liked them all, granted I read them more than 10 years ago but I have fond memories of them.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 08:33:31


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Delvarus Centurion wrote:Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual.
Yeah, we don't know what he's doing right now. I'm not saying that he "couldn't" be doing something more important, but there's no way to actually prove or even speculate that.

I'd just like to say, when I refer to Vulkan refusing to lead the Imperium, I am talking about the War of the Beast. Obviously if he's MIA, he can't be included. However, due to the fact that he didn''t lead the IoM when he had the chance, that's my point proven.

I'm not talking about M42 - no-one knows what he's doing, so your point is moot as well due to lack of evidence. My point is talking about when we did know what he was doing, and it wasn't leading the IoM.

Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty
I don't think that's how proving things works.

If you want to assume that something IS capable of XYZ, you need to prove that. Otherwise, I can claim that Trazyn is the God-Emperor, and the onus is on you to prove that. That makes no sense. Seeing as you're the one assigning virtues to Russ, the onus is on you.

Your example of the wolfblade isn't applicable - that wasn't formed as a method of political training, as I said. It was a bodyguard contract which happened to have the side effect of giving certain Space Wolves a better grasp of politics. Russ didn't form that as it's primary intention.

So, logically, where would Russ be a good politician? He lives on Fenris, a world based on tribal rule and rule of strength. Politics aren't a massive part of that life. As we also know, not all Primarchs were gifted politicians - in fact, most were not regarded as such.

Lion - not at all. Not a people person, and certainly not a diplomat.
Fulgrim - probably a very good one.
Perturabo - Probably not. Perty wasn't very people-y.
Khan - The Khan was very arrogant, and outright ignored most of what the munitorum said to him. He also hated being centralised.
Russ - As I said, Russ wasn't brought up as a diplomat. His words were with his howls.
Dorn - Based on Terra so much, very likely political.
Kurze - Certainly not.
Sanguinius - Considering he was second pick for Warmaster, almost certainly was a good one.
Ferrus - Not really sure. He wasn't really much of a human person though, so his political nature be questionable.
Angron - No way.
Guilliman - Probably one the best actual statesmen in 40k.
Mortarion - Given his upbringing, doubtful.
Magnus - Given his education and nature, most likely a very solid politician.
Horus - There's a reason he was Warmaster. Definitely a good one.
Lorgar - Probably quite a solid one.
Vulkan - Well, he didn't come back during the War of the Beast, Not political.
Corax - Politics isn't really his thing.
Alpharius - Neither is it this pair's thing.

That's a majority of non-political Primarchs - certainly wouldn't be out of place for Russ to be non-political. Most of a Primarch's political clout came from them exuding an aura of majesty that swayed most mortals to them. However, HLOT are barely affected by this kind of awe, rendering it moot.


Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.
And Russ wouldn't do the same? Vulkan didn't even lead the actual military force - again, he took on NO leadership, both political and militarily.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 10:32:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual. Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty As for his intelligence, I was replying to someone else and only to point out that he wasn't a barbarian bit Russ was without doubt wise. Also Girlyman didn't come back and say I'll lead, It was the Emperor that told him what to do, when he was given the Emps sword. Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.

Nothing would be more important than leading the Imperium seeing as it's just gone downhill consistently. That's honestly not a good argument.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 10:38:55


Post by: YeOldSaltPotato


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc.


Hi I'm Horus, with great power comes great daddy issues! Ohh my ass what was that I got stabbed with, better succumb to chaos so we have a plot.

Hello Horus, I'm every other intentional traitor Primarch, good thing I have no issues slaughtering my own men and see no parallel between my action and our fathers that made us so very upset.

Hey Horus, i'm Russ, I'm really angry and like killing things, oh, Magnus, right oh off I go!

Oh hi there guys, we're all the other loyalists, good thing everything's going wrong for us because otherwise we'd probably stomp your steadily corrupted asses.

*Sounds of Magnus getting ganked and rage quitting*


Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 10:52:13


Post by: tneva82


YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.


They have already changed things. They are going to change things. They have already hinted siege of terra isn't going to go as we know.

Seeing world hasn't ended despite them already having changed things not likely ending any time soon.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 10:54:51


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc.


Hi I'm Horus, with great power comes great daddy issues! Ohh my ass what was that I got stabbed with, better succumb to chaos so we have a plot.

Hello Horus, I'm every other intentional traitor Primarch, good thing I have no issues slaughtering my own men and see no parallel between my action and our fathers that made us so very upset.

Hey Horus, i'm Russ, I'm really angry and like killing things, oh, Magnus, right oh off I go!

Oh hi there guys, we're all the other loyalists, good thing everything's going wrong for us because otherwise we'd probably stomp your steadily corrupted asses.

*Sounds of Magnus getting ganked and rage quitting*


Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.
Largely agreed, although I do feel that Sanguinius and Guilliman are some of the better written Primarchs. Angron and Kurze, despite their natures, also get some very good showing and character insight.

I don't really mind them changing stuff up, however. Imperium Secundus wasn't a thing beforehand, it is now. It's a good story device, and organically introduces the Tyranids too.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 14:49:15


Post by: YeOldSaltPotato


Given how harsh that sounds, I will say thus far the Khan has been written as a rather interesting character in Scars, despite how obvious it is they're writing around the fact they hadn't written much about him. Much better balance of normal people vs legionary vs primarch than the early books, and an interesting one with some freedom of action at that.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 14:57:34


Post by: Mr Morden


If we are talking about Mary Sueness I don't think any Space Wolves can be mentioned without massive irony.

I used to love them but now Urghhh,

I liked the fact that RG was mentally devastated by his return, by what the Imperium had become - the other Imperial Primarchs would be as interesting tbh.

Leman Russ - Once he would have been but now they would just Wolf Wolf Wolfy him up. Him coming back now and RG and he trying to sor stuff out which disagreeing would be interesting if they can tone down the fething Wolf drek.

Vulkan - interesting to see what he would do and how he would act

Lion - every HH book I read portrayed him a arrogant psychopath - Horus reborn would how he would have acted I think

Khan - difficult to make him stick around and focus on actually sorting the gak out.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 15:55:50


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Vulkan came back ti save the world Caldera specifically, so he didn't come back and refuse to lead he said he'd be back temporarily and since we don't know if he is doing anything more important your point is moot.

The reason why the onus is on you to prove that Russ can't lead is because I never said he could do it well, all I said is that he would, If the Emperor asked him to like Girlyman of course he would take up that mantle, he could do it better than any man because he's a Primarch and he'd have the duty to do so, that's incontrovertible. But you are saying he 'can't' where there is no proof for that argument. There is proff all over the place that Primarch's are better than humans everywhere in the HH, but you whimsically just refute that for no other reason for wanting to be right.

Again the strawman you keep arguing, that I said the Wolfblade was created for political learning. I never once said that, I proved you wrong and that you didn't read the book by showing you that the Wolfblade was used for political education and now you have changed the argument to saying I said that was what it was made for, which is very pathetic, go back and find a quote where I said that. You are lying you said it was purely for beign a bodyguard you NEVER said it was for learning politics. You're a complete liar. YOU NEVER READ THE BOOK, stop lying. You thought I stopped commenting on this thread and are lying to make yourself look right. You are pathological.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 16:43:50


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Well they would be humorous before the heresy, Dorn was depicted as a rage hound, constantly angry to the point of not seeing sense, Fulgrim obsessed with perfection so much that he felt like a failure all the time, The Lion and his treatment of Zaherial There were few books at the beginning that were designated to Primarchs though, I liked them all, granted I read them more than 10 years ago but I have fond memories of them.


I'm not saying the Primarchs themselves are humorous, I'm saying their portrayals are. How they act, how insanely one dimensional they are. The fact that Horus knows its not Hastur talking to him in his dream and is distrustful of him but ultimately agrees with him because they need a badguy and its called the Horus Heresy. The first 3 books were and arguably are still good, they just don't hold up when you re-read them. At least not in the way that Eisenhorn (to me personally anyway) does.


Can't help at laugh at the Mary Sueness that is Girlyman. @ 2018/02/12 16:54:25


Post by: Alpharius


This one didn't start out well, and it hasn't gotten much better from there.

So with that - I believe we're all done here.