Can a rule that may be used during a phase, in this case the Cloud of Flies stratagem during the Movement phase, be used after performing an action that must be done at the end of the phase, in this case reinforcements arriving at the end of the Movement phase?
Self evidently I would think not, being that specific end of phase actions need to happen last, but a friend is doggedly claiming he can invoke Sequencing by trying to use "during the phase" as equivalent to specifically "at the end of the phase".
"At the end of the phase" is still in the phase so I would say you could use the stratagem. HIWPI would be to declare I'm going to use the stratagem on the guys I'm deepstriking as I'm setting them up.
I dont think you can change the order of things so they dont follow there rule at the end of the phase needs to happen at the end. I would say that they are not happening at the same time once you reach the end of somthing its the end
The Sentinel wrote: "At the end of the phase" is still in the phase so I would say you could use the stratagem. HIWPI would be to declare I'm going to use the stratagem on the guys I'm deepstriking as I'm setting them up.
Does using the stratagem after the reinforcements arrive at the end of phase action not then render they arrival before the end of the phase, and therefore not allowed?
Other wise wouldnt it be called the ending
The end of the phase is when it stops being a phase
The ending of a phase is the events leading up to the end
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the problem is that because we cannot make things happen instantly, when we reach the end of the phase it still feels like the phase is happening because the space after it hasnt been defined and given a name .
-movement phase-(this is the end of the phase)-psychic phase- -shooting phase-
Until you've stopped doing all Movement Phase things and decide to move on it's still the Movement Phase. You choose when you move on to the next Phase. Unless the Stratagem has specific timing written on it (e.g. "play at the start of X Phase") then play it whenever you like during the appropriate Phase. "At the end of X Phase" is still during that Phase, yes.
During is when something is happening. Once the end has happened you are no longer doing it.
This is my movement sentance. The full stop is the end of the sentance once you reach the full stop that sentance is over and somthing new now exsists
Once you pass the finnish line in a race that race is over the timer is stoped thats the end of the race. The end is a single point in time. Defining the point at which somthing stops being that thing
I don't think completing an end of phase action brings the Movement phase to an end, but there's a difference between not having any available actions left to take and the phase ending.
By definition end of phase actions need to take place at the end of the phase, which I think necessarily means after all other non-end of phase actions except other explicitly end of phase actions, which are resolved by the Sequencing rule.
For those saying because it's still "during the phase so you can do it," does it not retrospectively invalidate having set the unit up at the end of the phase, because it's no longer the end of the phase?
I would like to ask some questions if thats ok
when does the end of the phase happen? Is it when a new phase starts?
I think the way you are purposing is creating a sub phase? there is now a sub phase where only actions that happen at the end can happen?. Isnt this just giving the space that hasnt been defined a name. I think the key here is the wording is at the end meaning once the end has happened .
if it had said during the end then it would be diffrent as that is defining a time that happens whislt the phase is still active
ian wrote: I would like to ask some questions if thats ok
when does the end of the phase happen? Is it when a new phase starts?
I think the way you are purposing is creating a sub phase? there is now a sub phase where only actions that happen at the end can happen?. Isnt this just giving the space that hasnt been defined a name. I think the key here is the wording is at the end meaning once the end has happened .
if it had said during the end then it would be diffrent as that is defining a time that happens whislt the phase is still active
The way I look at it the "at the start of X phase" and "at the end of X phase" put sequencing limitations on certain actions. For example a Cybernetica Datasmith can change the protocols of Kastelan Robots and also heal them. Both of these actions take place in the movement phase, but changing protocols takes place at the start of the phase and healing at the end of the phase. If I move any units in my army before attempting to change protocols I lose that chance this turn. I don't think anyone really has any issues with "at the start of X phase" because it's pretty clear once you start doing regular movement phase actions you have moved past the start. It's "at the end of the phase" that's not as clear. There are no definitions in the BRB that say the phase is over when X occurs.
I think there's some confusion (intentionally or otherwise) about actions that must be performed at the end of the phase. Some things need to be performed at the start of a phase, others at the end, others in the middle and some at any point during. This particular stratagem being worded as happening during the Movement phase suggests to me that it can be used any time up until you've started the Psychic phase.
Something saying it happens at the end of the movement phase doesn't mean it is, was and can only be the final action of the movement phase, or else you'd only be able to bring in one reserve unit, because they have to be brought in at the end.
It'd also mean there'd be some kind of time paradox in the fight phase if more than one unit charges, because they must fight first.
I see the at the begining and at the end to be diffrent. When you begin the movement phase its active and you perform actions when the end of the phase happens its not active anymore
I see the order of actions as
declare the start of the movement phase
Check if any actions happen here
Continue movement actions
Declare the end of the movement phase
Check if any actions happen
If you follow it like a time line
1:00 movement starts
1:01 its now during
1:05 movement stops
1:06 this is the point at which you can perform at the end of actions. But its not happening between 1:00-1:05 which would be defined as the phase because it has a clear begining and end. The end has to happen so you can use the actions "at the end"
I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.
By that logic you cannot bring on more than one unit from reinforcements a turn, which isn't the way things work.
BaconCatBug wrote: I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.
By that logic you cannot bring on more than one unit from reinforcements a turn, which isn't the way things work.
They all arrive at the same time - end of the movement phase. Due to sequencing, it gets processed as putting down one unit at a time, but the reinforcements would be the last thing.
You don't get to place the reinforcements and then have the reinforcements do something else afterward as you are trying to do it after the end of the phase.
So when you declare that you have moved your last unit you have to declare thats the end of the movement phase (the final part). Because these actions have to happen at a specifid time your forced to define the end.
End = the final part = subjective based on your own view point
Does it happen when all the units have moved? you have used all your during actions? or is it just when you decide to say its the end "part" now so i can deploy my unit declare a stratagem and still pick a unit to move because its still the movement phase?
End =the termination of = a clear defined point
I have finnished my movement phase
A helpfull point mite be to look at things that happen at the begining of the first battle round but before the first turn begins. Its point in time that has no name defined only by what its not
The end of the movement phase
Is a point in time defined by what it is not
Normal movement happens during the movement phase.
If a stratagem that has to be used "during the movement phase" can be used after a "at the end of the movement phase" action, then by the same logic you can also move units after others came in from reserve. Or even the units that just came in from reserve, because it's still "during the movement phase".
Using that line of argument makes any reference to "at the end of the phase" irrelevant, so I think it's erroneous. Things that happen "during the movement" phase must be performed before any action that happens "at the end of the phase".
End of the phase is end of the phase. You can do all things that happen at the end of the phase then. If you do something after that point that is not required 'at the end of the phase' then by definition the thing that should have been done at the end, was not.
Cloud of flies must happen before reinforcements else reinforcements aren't happening at the end of the phase
Nothing says you can't play that Stratagem at the end of a phase. So long as you're still in the Movement Phase it's valid. Anything else seems to be applying restrictions not written in the rules. Until you start the Psychic Phase it's still the Movement Phase so the Stratagem is eligible to be played.
Is'nt the rules on reinforcement stating "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battle field"
specifically state that unit who arrive from reinforcement have used all their movement phase and so can't do anything more laying during the movement phase,like using a movement phase only stratagem ?
Surely we can agree that the end of something always follows during something?
You could do the during stratagem at the end of the phase but you must do the reinforcements at the end of the phase. If you decide to bring units in from tactical reserve you have signalled the end of the phase. It must be done last. Otherwise couldn't I move my units after reinforcements have arrived since they also move 'during' the movement phase.
surely we can agree that the end of something is also a part of it? If Reinforcements arrived "after the movement phase" then it'd be grand, but they don't they come in at the end, which is part of the movement phase, so it's during the phase.
craggy wrote: surely we can agree that the end of something is also a part of it? If Reinforcements arrived "after the movement phase" then it'd be grand, but they don't they come in at the end, which is part of the movement phase, so it's during the phase.
Irrelevant, as helldrad pointed out another reason why you can't have the unit cast Cloud of Flies after arriving - in reinforcements it states "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield". If they used their entire movement phase to do this, there's no movement phase left for them to use the stratagem.
Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.
Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.
JohnnyHell wrote: Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.
Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.
No, it says you spend the entire movement phase in deploying, then it tells you that you are deployed at the end of the end of the movement phase. It doesn't need to say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" as it just told you it takes them the entire movement phase to get there and they deploy at the end. Playing a stratagem on the unit would be after the end of the movement phase.
JohnnyHell wrote: Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.
Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.
It doesn't need to, because its not too hard to reason that if the phase is over there is no opportunity to play stratagems that occur in said phase.
As I said earlier, if we take the logic that you're proposing further then I guess we can move units after deploying reinforcements because they also move during the phase. It something happens at the end, it has to by definition, happen last. If you do something else after that it has not happened last and you've broken the rules.
A stratagem played during a phase can be played at the end of it.
A stratagem (or reinforcement) that is played at the end of the phase MUST be played last.
Nobody is disputing that the last thing you can do in the movement phase, if you wish, is cloud of flies. You just can't do it after reinforcing because reinforcing must be done at the end of the phase. If you do something after something else, the first thing is no longer at the end of the phase.
ian wrote: Everybody who is saying that it is still during the phase
when does the end of the phase begin ? And how do you decided that ?
If you spend the entire movement phase getting to where you deploy, how is there any movement phase left after deploying to use a stratagem on the unit that arrived at the end?
ian wrote: Thats my point the movement phase is over, so you cant use the stratagem thats happens during it
There has to be a point where the end is defined
Its declared to be the end or you start the next phase
Okay, sorry, I didn't get that from your post right after mine there, it sounded like you were arguing the opposite. I agree that the movement phase is over. the wording about it taking the entire movement phase to get to the point where you deploy reinforces that - a stratagem can't be used on them because they are still trying to deploy during the phase at any point you would use the stratagem.
The end of phase is where all the stuff designated as end of that phase happens, you don't get to add stuff that would happen during the phase or, as was pointed out, you could just declare that you're moving some unit at the end of the phase and move them after reinforcements arrive, making a mockery of the concept of the end of the phase.
The phrases 'at the end of the phase' and 'during XX phase' is being used almost as a proper noun, and not as an English comprehension test.
The rulesets are permissive. You don't have permission to include things that happen "at the end of the phase" as being inclusive within "during a phase."
The rules were written so as to specifically differentiate "during" from "at the end".
If 'during-phase' stratagems were supposed to work on reinforcements that arrive at the end of movement phase, then the deep strike blurb may as well just be written 'during the movement phase... units arriving in this manner cannot move during this turn.'
U02dah4 wrote: A square is a rectangle a rectangle is not always a square
At the end of is during the phase
During does not always equal at the end of the phase
It is during the movement phase until such time as it is the start of the next phase
So do you let your opponent move all his units that started the movement phase on the board after bringing in units from reinforcements that turn? With your definition, it's still during the movement phase. If it applies to stratagems, it would apply to other things during the phase like other units moving.
U02dah4 wrote: A square is a rectangle a rectangle is not always a square
At the end of is during the phase
During does not always equal at the end of the phase
It is during the movement phase until such time as it is the start of the next phase
Well, if you're told to draw inside a square, you're not allowed to draw over or on the lines of the square, or outside of it. The lines however are still part of the square. Now someone hands you a special pencil and tells you that you're only allowed to draw on the lines of the rectangle with it.
This is like that time when people were discussing whether not moving at all was considered moving less than half movement for the sake of Leman Russes.
Reinforcing must be the last thing done in the movement phase. End of. If you do a stratagem after that it is no longer the last thing and you have broken the rules.
ian wrote: Not the psychic phase but the time inbetween just like the forward operatives stratagem which happens at the begining of the first battle round but before the first turn . It happens inbetween the deployment and the movement phase they have chosesn to mark a point in the game without giving it a simple name ie " infiltrate phase " or somthing like that
If it was worded like this
At the end of the movement phase but before the physic phase
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be more clear cut ,
I guess i am just trying to find at what point do the rules say a phase has ended
Automatically Appended Next Post: if i declare that its the end of my movement phase does that mean its now the physic phase,
1. There is no time between phases. The rules do not support some imaginary period between the end of one phase and the start of another.
2. 'The end of.." is not synonymous with 'after'. If I live at the end of First Street, my house is not on Second Street. If a quarterback throws a Hail Mary pass at the end of the game, then the game was still going on. It was not after the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its because i need to know when its the end of the phase so i can do my action
Its not the same as describing a past event or the same as a location its a point in time
Automatically Appended Next Post: When is the end of a football match ?
When is it the end of the street?
When you ask these questions your forced to be specific you cant say the end of a football match is the last 10 mins because somebody else mite say its the last 15 mins
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have thought of a better way to explain it what we are talking about is a sequence and the action here is speaking
At the end of counting to 5 you can start to count from 7
You dont start saying 7 until you have finnished saying 5 you cant perform the next action until the first on is done.
Movement phase you pick a unit to move until you have moved as many as you wish i am going to move 5 units once that last unit is moved the phase is over
ian wrote: Ok then a question when is the end of the phase?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its because i need to know when its the end of the phase so i can do my action
Its not the same as describing a past event or the same as a location its a point in time
Automatically Appended Next Post: When is the end of a football match ?
When is it the end of the street?
When you ask these questions your forced to be specific you cant say the end of a football match is the last 10 mins because somebody else mite say its the last 15 mins
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have thought of a better way to explain it what we are talking about is a sequence and the action here is speaking
At the end of counting to 5 you can start to count from 7
You dont start saying 7 until you have finnished saying 5 you cant perform the next action until the first on is done.
Movement phase you pick a unit to move until you have moved as many as you wish i am going to move 5 units once that last unit is moved the phase is over
The end of the movement phase is reached when the acting player declares that it is the end of the phase. He then no longer is able to do stuff that's to happen during the phase.
Yes, GW should just release a phase flow model including all these 'events', but it's not that hard to figure it out without it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: If you can play this stratagem after reinforcing you can also (following the same logic) move after reinforcing.
Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.
Fall Back however isn't explicitly time-specific however, and I don't think anyone would accept you could Fall Back after an arriving reinforcements unit has been set up, as this would have the effect of tying an enemy unit up to avoid Auspex Scan or similar before allowing them to be shot and/or charged by the arriving unit. I can't imagine that sitting as acceptable with anyone.
I think the crux of this is whether "during the phase" is carte blanche for the player on timing versus "at the beginning of" and/or "at the end of".
Suggesting "at the end of" is not part of and is some kind of weird between time after the Movement phase is a red herring because we just have to look at its opposite, "at the beginning of" to know of course it is part of the phase.
I've emailed the rules/FAQ team and fingers crossed it makes it into the March update, because I think it's worth an answer.
ian wrote: Everybody who is saying that it is still during the phase
when does the end of the phase begin ? And how do you decided that ?
Beginning of phase - Explicitly before doing other standard things within the phase essentially jump to front of the queue. So in movement phase prior to moving models normally. If you've moved models normally youve missed the window
End of phase - Explicitly after doing other standard things within the phase essentially jump to the back of the queue. So in movement phase if you have resolved something end of phase you can't go back and move something normally (it ends at the start of the next phase.
During the phase- at any point during the phase. Begining of phase is in phase -end of phase is in phase. The only requirement is that you have not moved to a different phase.
Mr. Shine wrote: Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.
It's not that moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, movement also happens during the phase. It's that reinforcing is explicitly the last thing you do in the movement phase and so you can't use a stratagem after it, unless the stratagem in question must also be used "at the end of the movement phase".
Mr. Shine wrote: Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.
It's not that moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, movement also happens during the phase. It's that reinforcing is explicitly the last thing you do in the movement phase and so you can't use a stratagem after it, unless the stratagem in question must also be used "at the end of the movement phase".
I dont think it is a red herring i think its the same thing as the forward operatives stratagems, here is somthing to think about
I have just finnished moving all my units
i now say its the end of the movement phase
So i can now bring in my reinenforments
I now say its the end of the movement phase
The same thing is happening twice just wondering how that fits
I agree that you could say its the start of the physic phase as a way to define the end of the movement phase but doing that would stop you using end of actions because its the physic phase
One last thing to add
What happens if i do not move any models when is the start when is the end and when is during.
If reenforments is the only thing i do it is the start of the phase and the end of the phase at the same time
Just throwing some ideas out as im still on the fence as to how to define it
When do actions occur at the same time you sequence them according to the sequencing rules. You dont have two different end of phases you have one end of phase with two different actions being resolved.
Also the second time in your example you say its now the end of movement phase you dont need to say it. It has been the end of movement phase since the first time you said it
In MtG there are phases such as your upkeep and your main phase.
The main phase is more or less broken into "at the start", "during" and "the end". Things trigger appropriately but for the most part you can do anything at any given point regardless of order.
So if you apply the same logic the "Deep strike" phase at the end is still within the phase itself. If it were truly at the end you'd never be able to place any reinforcements
An Actual Englishman wrote: If you can play this stratagem after reinforcing you can also (following the same logic) move after reinforcing.
Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.
Technically, moving your first unit (only) is the first thing you do in the Movement phase. Any movement after that is during the movement phase. This means that if for people treating the end of phase as "during the phase" and allowing you to declare anything else during the phase at the end of the phase, then I could declare that I move all my units except the first unit I move as happening at the end of the phase, along with declaring all stratagems I play occur at the end of the phase. I could then declare that it's the end of the phase, and because of sequencing I could bring in my reinforcements before moving any of my other units or playing any stratagems. If it's allowable to try to do that with stratagems, it's allowable to do that with movement of units after the first.
doctortom wrote: Technically, moving your first unit (only) is the first thing you do in the Movement phase. Any movement after that is during the movement phase. This means that if for people treating the end of phase as "during the phase" and allowing you to declare anything else during the phase at the end of the phase, then I could declare that I move all my units except the first unit I move as happening at the end of the phase, along with declaring all stratagems I play occur at the end of the phase. I could then declare that it's the end of the phase, and because of sequencing I could bring in my reinforcements before moving any of my other units or playing any stratagems. If it's allowable to try to do that with stratagems, it's allowable to do that with movement of units after the first.
ian wrote: But sont you have to pick a unit then move it
You explicitly start your Movement phase by picking a unit and moving it. Then (meaning next, after that explicitly "start of phase" action) you may pick and move another unit, and so on. Necessarily second and subsequent unit movement must be part of "during the phase".
fraser1191 wrote: In MtG there are phases such as your upkeep and your main phase.
The main phase is more or less broken into "at the start", "during" and "the end". Things trigger appropriately but for the most part you can do anything at any given point regardless of order.
So if you apply the same logic the "Deep strike" phase at the end is still within the phase itself. If it were truly at the end you'd never be able to place any reinforcements
The thing is (as a judge) mtg is clear the phase is broken into clearly defined steps. 40k has no clear definition and while you are interpreting during to mean middle. Strictly it means at any point in the phase begining middle or end
ian wrote: But sont you have to pick a unit then move it
You explicitly start your Movement phase by picking a unit and moving it. Then (meaning next, after that explicitly "start of phase" action) you may pick and move another unit, and so on. Necessarily second and subsequent unit movement must be part of "during the phase".
Not necessarily. You start your movement phase with any abilities that specify at the start of the movement phase. If you move a unit you are no longer at the start you are in the middle.
U02dah4 wrote: Not necessarily. You start your movement phase with any abilities that specify at the start of the movement phase. If you move a unit you are no longer at the start you are in the middle.
Check the movement rules. Moving your first unit is explicitly done to start your Movement phase, so you could move your first unit and still be at the beginning of the phase for Sequencing other such rules. Second or subsequent though, indeed, as doctortom showed, you would no longer be at the start or beginning of the phase.
What about stratagems that are in effect during a phase, are they still active for At the end of the phase stratagems?
namely: Veterans of the Long War, adding +1 to wound during a shooting/fight phase, and Endless Cacophony, allowing a unit to shoot again at the End of the Shooting phase.
Veterans of the Long War is when a unit is selected to shoot or fight in a phase. Perhaps this is the difference between "in a phase" and "during/at the beginning/end of a phase"?
Mr. Shine wrote: Veterans of the Long War is when a unit is selected to shoot or fight in a phase. Perhaps this is the difference between "in a phase" and "during/at the beginning/end of a phase"?
The only difference between “in a phase” or “during a phase” is stylistic. The meaning of both phrases is identical.
I agree with this , its why i have been thinking the best way to think about the end of the phase is that phase is over now its time to resovle things that happen in a "end of phase section" be intressting to see in anything comes out of the faq
Nithaniel wrote: For those who are arguing that placing a reinforcement ends your phase how do they resolve multiple reinforcements?
How does auspex scan and other similar stratagems work in terms of this issue?
Imagine if you place a unit of blightlords and deathshroud then your opponent plays Auspex scan could you play cloud of flies in response to negate?
It starts to open up a minefield. Its almost like 40k needs a LIFO sequencing structure like MtG
I don't see the difficulty.
Reinforcements are all placed last. At the end of the phase. You place all reinforcements you wish and the movement phase has ended.
You'll have to give the exact wording of auspex scan if you want my take on that but I assume it references when "units arrive as reinforcements" so that isn't difficult either. Unit arrives as reinforcement and auspex can be triggered.
The debate over whether the phase ends once reinforcements arrive shouldn’t matter. The stratagem says DURING, I.e. at any point, beginning or end...inclusive.
This is the problem you have when using words that can mean a period of time, with rules that are effectivly instant.
In this situation reducing subjective ways of looking at things and providing clear points seems to be the way forward
.......Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model until you have moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move unitil you have moved as many of your units as you wish......
It tells you it starts when you pick, the end is less clear but my reading is it ends when you dont want to move any more units and have stoped picking them.
This to me seems to fit the rules on movement best
At the begining........... before any unit has been picked to move
During......................... Once a unit has been picked to move
At the end of...............Once the last picked unit has moved
Trying to blend during into start and end is where the problems begin.
Nah mate, the problem isn't what you're describing exactly. People are just claiming that the period of the game that is "end of phase" is also "during", and thus they can act as if it is during the phase.
The counter point is clear, and Englishman laid it out clearly. Some rules are noted as occurring only at the "end of phase", you may simultaneously conduct all these actions. If you act on a rule that does not occur at the end, but instead occurs "during", you have made all you previous actions that required to be at the end of the phase illegal.
This is not a time period issue, it's not a blur of distinction, it doesn't even matter when the phase ends; it only matters that you do not act after the end, which is definitely occurring if you use a stratagem after deepstrike.
if you think about it, when they arrived via teleportarium why wouldnt they have a Cloud of flies around them? was there Raid in the telportarium killing off all the flies?
Maybe the only reason it says During the movement phase is so no one uses it during psychic shooting or fight phase.
Movement phase could be the sum of all of its parts, its made of a begining of movement- middle of movement and end of movement.
But then you can argue that its still the phase once you have played the end of phase stratagem because its and like people have said still during it and because it all happens at once you can look at yhe sequncing rules
Automatically Appended Next Post: If eveything is happening at the same time then the during hasnt broken any rules because one hasnt happen before the other
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which is why i maintain it is a timing issue
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also why do tbey happen at the same time dosnt every unit have there own deepstrike rule ?
hollow one wrote: Nah mate, the problem isn't what you're describing exactly. People are just claiming that the period of the game that is "end of phase" is also "during", and thus they can act as if it is during the phase.
The counter point is clear, and Englishman laid it out clearly. Some rules are noted as occurring only at the "end of phase", you may simultaneously conduct all these actions. If you act on a rule that does not occur at the end, but instead occurs "during", you have made all you previous actions that required to be at the end of the phase illegal.
This is not a time period issue, it's not a blur of distinction, it doesn't even matter when the phase ends; it only matters that you do not act after the end, which is definitely occurring if you use a stratagem after deepstrike.
Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.
Only if you have the perspective that at the end of means its still happening,
The rules appear to say the movement phase ends when you stop moving models.
So i can finnish my movement phase by stop moving models, then i can use my depolyment rule at the end of the movement phase and its still true to its meaning
Also just in case
the movement phase being over does not equal the physic phase has started
Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.
Not given the context of this rule, stratagem and discussion.
Something that must happen at the end of the phase must happen at the end, it's simple as. If you do something after that in the same phase you've broken the rules.
Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.
Not given the context of this rule, stratagem and discussion.
Something that must happen at the end of the phase must happen at the end, it's simple as. If you do something after that in the same phase you've broken the rules.
ian wrote: There is no clear way to define end of phase , im out untill a faq drops
It doesn’t matter how you define it. The definition of “during” is all that matters.
Edit: During can make an action become the start or end of a phase. It’s an inclusive preposition.
ian wrote: Again only if you beleave that end of phase means its still happening. Its perfectly acceptable for end of phase to mean its over.
Everybody clapped at the end of his speach
That dosnt mean people started clapping during his speach normaly it happens once his speach has finnished
The raptors arrived at the end of the movement phase
This could be the same as above they arrived once the movement phase has finnished
End of phase is subjective and its down to you how you want to appy the rule
In your example, the clapping takes the place of the deep striking unit.
What you’re arguing is that reinforcements do not take place in the movement phase. Which, of course, they do.
I would argue that Cloud of Flies would be a hand gesture that the speaker performs to energize his audience, which coincides with his final statement (the blightlords).
Both actions come at the end.
Edit: ...and both are DURING the speech.
Yes i am saying they dont happen in the movement phase. It happens directly after
Well, you’re clearly wrong.
Once the battle begins, there are only 6 phases in each player’s turn. Every action takes place during one of those 6 phases and each phase happens in a specific order.
GW can and will FAQ this however they want, but RAW this stratagem can be used at any point in the phase, including overriding the end of a phase to assert its action as the final operation of the phase.
Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.
In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of phase, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.
hollow one wrote: Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.
In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.
Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.
I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?
hollow one wrote: Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.
In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.
Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.
I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?
The rules for sequencing allow for “an end” to not be the end. What is the difference between the following:
Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Deep strike Term Lord
Or
Ex.2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord
The rules do not state that reinforcements arrive simultaneously, as some people have claimed in this thread. They make no mention of multiple reinforcements arriving in the same player turn, they only mention them arriving over the course of the entire game.
If the first is allowed, there is no reason the second shouldn’t be a allowed.
I agree thats how it works i have been side tracked onto when the end of the phase is
Clearly you are not understanding the concept i am basing my idea on which is the forward operatives startagem which dosnt have a label of when it happens.
End of movement phase ( but before physic )
Hopfully i have found somthing in the rules to help brbpg 215
Before the battle begins and at the end of a battle round are both classed as not being in a phase.
So it would seem that end of does not mean during a battle round
It would seem that before is the same as end of , or another way to put it as after.
hollow one wrote: Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.
In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.
Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.
I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?
The rules for sequencing allow for “an end” to not be the end. What is the difference between the following:
Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Deep strike Term Lord
Or
Ex.2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord
The rules do not state that reinforcements arrive simultaneously, as some people have claimed in this thread. They make no mention of multiple reinforcements arriving in the same player turn, they only mention them arriving over the course of the entire game.
If the first is allowed, there is no reason the second shouldn’t be a allowed.
By your logic I can also do this:
Ex. 3
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Move Cultists
3. Deep strike Term Lord
Much like your stratagem, I can perform movements during the movement phase.
Also: think about this. You're proposing that it is illegal to use the stratagem if you only have 1 deepstrike. But if you have 2 deepstrike its okay.
New Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
end of turn, no further deep strikes, can't use stratagem.
New Ex. 2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord
for no reason other than you have more than 1 deep strike, you are now apparently legally allowed to use your stratagem? Seems daft.
Ex. 3
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Move Cultists
3. Deep strike Term Lord
Much like your stratagem, I can perform movements during the movement phase.
No, it’s not the same. The rules for moving models does not resolve at the same time as the rule fore reinforcements. Therefore, the sequencing rule does not trigger.
Also: think about this. You're proposing that it is illegal to use the stratagem if you only have 1 deepstrike. But if you have 2 deepstrike its okay.
New Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
end of turn, no further deep strikes, can't use stratagem.
New Ex. 2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord
for no reason other than you have more than 1 deep strike, you are now apparently legally allowed to use your stratagem? Seems daft.
What I’m proposing is that words have meanings, meanings are important, and regardless of whether you can use it after a unit has deep struck, if two or more units deep strike, the end of the phase argument is out the window, as the rules are currently written.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, I can definitely see it both ways now. I still think that RAW, I’m on a wet lawn. RAI though, more like a swamp hahaha!
Regardless, this is fun and really forced me to view the rules closer.
Rotborn wrote: No, it’s not the same. The rules for moving models does not resolve at the same time as the rule fore reinforcements. Therefore, the sequencing rule does not trigger.
Referring to what I've bolded: Exactly the same thing can be said about the stratagem. In fact, I pretty much laid out exactly why the stratagem can not be simultaneous to reinforcements, since the stratagem requires reinforcements to occur first. So once again, my third example (moving cultists) is either as applicable as your stratagem, or nonsense (like the stratagem).
Rotborn wrote: What I’m proposing is that words have meanings, meanings are important, and regardless of whether you can use it after a unit has deep struck, if two or more units deep strike, the end of the phase argument is out the window, as the rules are currently written.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, I can definitely see it both ways now. I still think that RAW, I’m on a wet lawn. RAI though, more like a swamp hahaha!
Regardless, this is fun and really forced me to view the rules closer.
I appreciate your candor. And to finish off, referring to what I've bolded: you can easily imagine that the game sees all deep strikes occurring simultaneously, but the limitations of reality and the human body forces you to place them one at a time. Your perception that they arrive one at a time does not address (or invalidate) the fact that, according to the game, they all arrive simultaneously. There is no game mechanic that causes a conflict in assuming all deep striked units arrive at the same time. All their rules are written as if they arrive at the same time. Some rules that change the order of things (for example, first strike in combat) that do cause internal conflicts in game mechanics (such as, who goes first when everyone goes first) ask the players to roll-off.
Referring to what I've bolded: Exactly the same thing can be said about the stratagem. In fact, I pretty much laid out exactly why the stratagem can not be simultaneous to reinforcements, since the stratagem requires reinforcements to occur first.
Technically, the stratagem says to “select a Death Guard infantry unit”. Nothing in the stratagem says that a player can’t select a model in a teleportarium chamber.
Its not out of the window ive provided an example that has been ignored
If i take on board there is no time inbetween phases then that must mean theres no time inbetween player turns and no time inbetween battle rounds
Correct?
Player turns are defined as happening during a battle round so if your in a battle round your in a turn which is made up of 6 phase
Correct?
Now on brbpg 215 it clearly states that "before the battle " is not in a phase and that "at the end of a battle round" is not a phase
Can someone please explain why this example in the rule book works if during is also at the end of ?
Referring to what I've bolded: Exactly the same thing can be said about the stratagem. In fact, I pretty much laid out exactly why the stratagem can not be simultaneous to reinforcements, since the stratagem requires reinforcements to occur first.
Technically, the stratagem says to “select a Death Guard infantry unit”. Nothing in the stratagem says that a player can’t select a model in a teleportarium chamber.
This would be an ace plot twist, if you could just do the stratagem on them while they're waiting to come on the board then DS them in.
I would really appercaite sombody to have ago at explaining the example from the rule book because as far as i can see it proves that at the end of is not classed as during. Ive done my best to provide a source from the rule book
Referring to what I've bolded: Exactly the same thing can be said about the stratagem. In fact, I pretty much laid out exactly why the stratagem can not be simultaneous to reinforcements, since the stratagem requires reinforcements to occur first.
Technically, the stratagem says to “select a Death Guard infantry unit”. Nothing in the stratagem says that a player can’t select a model in a teleportarium chamber.
This would be an ace plot twist, if you could just do the stratagem on them while they're waiting to come on the board then DS them in.
Yeah I don't think you can target things that are not on the table. Plot twist was just a red herring :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ian wrote: I would really appercaite sombody to have ago at explaining the example from the rule book because as far as i can see it proves that at the end of is not classed as during. Ive done my best to provide a source from the rule book
It took me a while to even find the quote you were referencing. Are you talking about the "This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'" quote?
If so, it seems to state that before the battle begins and the end of a battle round are not during the 6 phases. So in our example, this might imply that there is not intermediate moment between movement and shooting that allows for actions to occur (for example, an intermediate "end of movement phase"-phase). I think this lends credence to the people who want to cast "during" at the same time as "end of phase", since "end of phase" has not been articulated as a separate entity. However, I think that implication is a stretch, and really does not impact the previous statements of Englishman and myself, where acting after actions that must occur at the end will always be illegal.
A phase ends when the next one begins. It's no more complex than that. If you begin the Psychic Phase the Movement Phase is done. Until then you're still in the Movement Phase.
Referring to what I've bolded: Exactly the same thing can be said about the stratagem. In fact, I pretty much laid out exactly why the stratagem can not be simultaneous to reinforcements, since the stratagem requires reinforcements to occur first.
Technically, the stratagem says to “select a Death Guard infantry unit”. Nothing in the stratagem says that a player can’t select a model in a teleportarium chamber.
This would be an ace plot twist, if you could just do the stratagem on them while they're waiting to come on the board then DS them in.
Narratively it makes sense and as written, it’s allowable (until GW clarifies). Gifts of Decay is a stratagem that can be used on a unit not on the board, so there is precedence. May not be intended, but neither was Roboute/Stormraven spam at the beginning of 8th.
The whole problem with this particular stratagem is that it is almost unique in its wording. I haven’t looked at every stratagem, but the three codices I looked through were all the same. “Just before x select y”, “at the start of x select y”, “when x happens to y, do this action for y”, etc. they se forth clear points in the phase to use stratagems. Cloud of flies Is vaguely written.
Nithaniel wrote: For those who are arguing that placing a reinforcement ends your phase how do they resolve multiple reinforcements?
How does auspex scan and other similar stratagems work in terms of this issue?
Imagine if you place a unit of blightlords and deathshroud then your opponent plays Auspex scan could you play cloud of flies in response to negate?
It starts to open up a minefield. Its almost like 40k needs a LIFO sequencing structure like MtG
For your first question, that had already been answered (it's probably answered again, but it's probably worth repeating). Multiple reinforcements all come in at the same time, the end of the phase. This means you use the sequencing rules for deciding which ones to place first. They all come in at the end of the phase, however.
Auspex would still work as it works (If I'm remembering the right stratagem) as it states you use it when reinforcements arrive, which is defined as the end of the phase, so this is something that is defined to be after they come in, but at the end of the phase. Most stratagems aren't defined like that to be specifically affecting reinforcements when they come in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rotborn wrote: The debate over whether the phase ends once reinforcements arrive shouldn’t matter. The stratagem says DURING, I.e. at any point, beginning or end...inclusive.
Sequencing rule should apply here.
So, by extension, that means you would allow units arriving as reinforcements to be placed after the first unit, then moving the rest of the units as you get to move units after the first DURING the phase, and you can declare you are moving them all (except the first) at the end of the phase, and use sequencing to put the reinforcements on the board before moving your other units. If it's "during", then you could always declare at least 1 unit is moving at the end of the phase and always have them move after reinforcements.
It really doesn't work that way. If it did, then they wouldn't have bothered saying they come in at the end of the phase, they would have just said they could come in sometime during the movement phase and have the same results. If you can't move the other units after bringing on reinforcements, then it's not really "during" the phase for purposes of doing other things to sequence with it, so you also wouldn't be able to use stratagems on a unit that just arrived from reinforcements that phase (unless, like Auspex, there's a specific mention that allows it).
I compelty agree that you cannot do another action after end of.
Sorry i should have be more clear on the quote i was using.
I am more focused on the defination the end of battle round means its not in a battle round
For the movement rules which defines phases
During a battle round each player has a turn
This means that once a battle round has started its a players turn its dosnt really matter how the turn is split at this point becuse its all happening during the battle round.
The quote on pg 215 bout stratagems is the only example i can find to the meaning of " end of " So i thinks its realvent because it means it happens when it is not the battle round
Rotborn wrote: The debate over whether the phase ends once reinforcements arrive shouldn’t matter. The stratagem says DURING, I.e. at any point, beginning or end...inclusive.
Sequencing rule should apply here.
So, by extension, that means you would allow units arriving as reinforcements to be placed after the first unit, then moving the rest of the units as you get to move units after the first DURING the phase, and you can declare you are moving them all (except the first) at the end of the phase, and use sequencing to put the reinforcements on the board before moving your other units. If it's "during", then you could always declare at least 1 unit is moving at the end of the phase and always have them move after reinforcements.
No, that wouldn't be a logical extension. The rule for moving models does not reference "during the movement phase". What I'm saying is that two or more rules can be resolved at the same time via sequencing. Teleport Strike is a rule and Cloud of Flies is a rule. Nothing in the rules prevents these two actions from occurring at the same time. The reason why I was zoning in on the definition of "During" is because some people were under the impression that "during" means "in the middle of".
ian wrote: Rotborn if i agree with your meaning of during which means begining middle and end if i have it right then
Pg 176 the battle round
During each battle round both players have a turn..... each turn consists of a series of phase
A phases is part of a turn which means that its happening during a battle round
Please correct me if i am wrong at this point
So you would say that you could use an action that states during the battle round at any point begining middle or end?
Looking forward to your answer
First, I just want to point out that Its not "my" meaning, its "the" meaning. I know this is a game, but in law ( American, English,whatever) words are generally accepted as being interpreted under their plain meaning. If the intent is for a word to have a different or more specific meaning, it needs to be defined (generally in a statute, code, rule, etc.).
It depends on the context. If all it says is, "use this stratagem during a battle round" then yeah, I can't see why you couldn't use it at any point. Unless it requires you to be the controlling player or some other limiting factor. Which action are your referring to?
Undoubtedly, looking at the overall rules set, there are a plethora of inconsistencies, but generally when rules are separated into chapters or sections they are meant to be interpreted within the confines of that specific chapter or section.
Ok thank you i am refering to the example in brb on page 215 under strategic discipline
This gives us a clear example that states at the end of the battle round is not consider to be part of the battle round . So i would sugest we use this example as a way to inform us how to treat "at the end of " so once this has happened then it can no longer be considered the battle round so during actions can no longer apply
That is if it is agreed that a phase is part of a battle round and not a seprate thing, sperating them would imply some sort of inbetween thats been discounted ao far in this discussion
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also please dont try and imply english words have only one meaning,
If i said i clapped at the end of a speach most people would think i did it after they had finnished
Its this reason that we should look for examples to see how gw wants it to be read like
ian wrote: Ok thank you i am refering to the example in brb on page 215 under strategic discipline
This gives us a clear example that states at the end of the battle round is not consider to be part of the battle round .
I disagree, this merely points out that stratagems occurring before the battle or after the battle round are not restricted by the preceding sentence, because they do not occur during a phase. We already know there are two periods of time that are not phases, deployment and score tallying. That is what this rule is referencing.
Also please dont try and imply english words have only one meaning,
I hope I wasn’t implying all words have only one meaning, though according to Oxford English Dictionary the word during only has one.
I mentioned “plain meaning”, because when words are not defined internally within a document the plain, ordinary meaning should be given priority. There needs to be agreement on the language before meaningful interpretation can really begin. Of course, this is not always possible when the words in question are more abstract.
Edit: Just wanted to say that just because I disagree, doesn’t mean that you didn’t make a valid point.
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
ian wrote: Thats fine thank you i view these threads as debates where its important to view every angle.
I dont see how we can sperate battle round from phase.
A turn is 6 phases so when a turn starts so must a phase
A battle round is 2 turns so when a battle round starts or finnishs so must a turn.
The victory conditions can interupt this snd also happens at the end of the battle round
I still maintain that the examples show that the statment implys that "at the end of " means that part is no longer active.
The key point must be seperating phase from battle round and to provide evidence of that happening
Thanks everybody for the debate i think i have provided all i can
Except they use phrases like at the start of the first battle round distinctly from at the start of the movement phase if this was indistinct from phase you would just have at the start of the movement phase. So start and end of battle round are clearly outside the phase system.
End of movement phase still during movement phase but occurs after all standard movement actions have been completed.
The meaning of during is essential because if it means raw dictionary english you can use - during stratagems during the end of phase as it occurs during the turn. If it means middle as somepeople claim rai then you cannot use during because you have moved to the end step.
So back to traditional rules page lines
1) GW need to faq 2) RAW always beats RAI aslong as it doesn't break the game (not likeing it isn't game breaking)
3) RAW here is clear
Rotborn wrote: The debate over whether the phase ends once reinforcements arrive shouldn’t matter. The stratagem says DURING, I.e. at any point, beginning or end...inclusive.
Sequencing rule should apply here.
So, by extension, that means you would allow units arriving as reinforcements to be placed after the first unit, then moving the rest of the units as you get to move units after the first DURING the phase, and you can declare you are moving them all (except the first) at the end of the phase, and use sequencing to put the reinforcements on the board before moving your other units. If it's "during", then you could always declare at least 1 unit is moving at the end of the phase and always have them move after reinforcements.
No, that wouldn't be a logical extension. The rule for moving models does not reference "during the movement phase". What I'm saying is that two or more rules can be resolved at the same time via sequencing. Teleport Strike is a rule and Cloud of Flies is a rule. Nothing in the rules prevents these two actions from occurring at the same time. The reason why I was zoning in on the definition of "During" is because some people were under the impression that "during" means "in the middle of".
So, if they're not moving during the movement phase, when are they moving?
I know what you're saying, but you don't like it being pointed out that the consequence of what you're saying would allow somebody to resolve moving a normal unit after deploying units from reserve by the very same sequencing rule you are trying to use to use a stratagem after deploying units from reserve.
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
Agreed.
What it seems some people are trying to do is to effectively do what you're saying they can't by stating that they're playing their stratagem (or whatever) saying they're playing it at the end of the round and letting sequencing let them do it after reinforcements arrive. But, if you can declare one thing happens at the end of the round, there's all sorts of things you can declare happening at the end of the round, and it ends up making a mockery of what "end of the round" means.
Could you set up one reinforcement unit, use the Stratagem, and then set up another reinforcement unit?
After all, the phase obviously doesn't "finish ending" after you set up the first reinforcement unit, because you still have more reinforcements to set up (which can't be done after the end of the phase, so by extension the phase hasn't ended yet...).
Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.
If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.
Just looked at the sequencing rules this part seems to be another example where end of means its not concidered part of
the players whose turn it is chooses the order.........if these things occur before or after the game or at the end of a battle round the players roll off
I know people have called out phases in my last example but this example specifcaly calls out a players turn which happens during a battle round
This example seems even clearer that end of means that its not during i hope that this second example brings more credit to this view point
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.
If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.
The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?
Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?
at the end of means its not that part anymore. My last example proves that if you beleave during means begining middle or end
I thought that time inbetween was disregarded ? Auspex work because its trigger is simply when a unit sets up
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would really apperciate a view on my last example because i think its much clearer because it uses the words turn which happens during a battle round
ian wrote: at the end of means its not that part anymore. My last example proves that if you beleave during means begining middle or end
I thought that time inbetween was disregarded ? Auspex work because its trigger is simply when a unit sets up
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would really apperciate a view on my last example because i think its much clearer because it uses the words turn which happens during a battle round
My view on your last example is that things which happen at the end of the Battle Round have no active player and therefore no sequencing rules, while things that happen at the End of the Movement Phase do have an active player and therefore there are sequencing rules, meaning that you can sequence things that happen at the end of the phase whenever you want, so long as they all happen simultaneously in game terms.
Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).
You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.
No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.
If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.
The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?
Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?
As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.
If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.
The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?
Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?
As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.
And I don't really see what's wrong with that, so long as it is happening simultaneously with the deep-strike, and isn't a deep-striking unit trying to move (as then it would obviously not be able to happen simultaneously with the deep strike, since the unit must be set-up before moving).
I could see that as a possiblity ,Are you suggesting that there is a space inbetween players turns where it isnt anybodys turn ?
In the example turn diagram on page 185
It implys that once the death guards turn is complete the space marine player can start there turn.
If there is a space inbetween things then we would have to relie on the defination of end of which can mean diffrent things so would have to conculde that its unclear?
doctortom wrote: Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.
If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.
Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?
And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...
All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.
If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.
The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?
Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?
As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.
And I don't really see what's wrong with that, so long as it is happening simultaneously with the deep-strike, and isn't a deep-striking unit trying to move (as then it would obviously not be able to happen simultaneously with the deep strike, since the unit must be set-up before moving).
There's nothing obvious about that. If the end of the phase is during the phase, then it's during the phase for movement. I can declare that I am moving a unit at the end of the phase. This means it does happen simulaneously with the deep strike.
So if it happens simultaneously with deep strike, then you can't be moving a deep striking unit, as presumably you can only declare you are moving a unit that has already been set up on the board?
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
ian wrote: Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying). You can't move a unit that has deep struck because of the reinforcement rules specifically stating you can't move or advance further.
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
What are you on about? I directly responded to that claim. You just can't seem to wrap your head around the Sequencing rule.
The sequencing rule is only used when one or more rules resolve at the same time.
Movement rule:
"Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish."
Teleport Strike rule:
" ...At the end of any of your movement phases they can teleport into the battle..."
Here, let me draw it out for you:
<Start (move models)........................................................................End (reinforcements)>
<---------------------------------------------During--------------------------------------------------------->
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).
Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).
ian wrote: Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts
What's your argument that its not?
this is my argument that it is not
brbpg 215 stratagems states that "before the battle " is not in a phase and that "at the end of a battle round" is not a phase
If i take on board there is no time in between phases then that must mean theres no time inbetween player turns and no time inbetween battle rounds
Player turns are defined as happening during a battle round so if your in a battle round your in a turn which is made up of 6 phase
brbpg 178 sequencing states that “at the end of a battle round” is not a turn
the players whose turn it is chooses the order.........if these things occur before or after the game or at the end of a battle round the players roll off
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
What are you on about? I directly responded to that claim. You just can't seem to wrap your head around the Sequencing rule.
The sequencing rule is only used when one or more rules resolve at the same time.
Movement rule:
"Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish."
Teleport Strike rule:
" ...At the end of any of your movement phases they can teleport into the battle..."
Here, let me draw it out for you:
<Start (move models)........................................................................End (reinforcements)>
<---------------------------------------------During--------------------------------------------------------->
Nope, doesn't address it. If the end of the movement phase is still in the phase, you declare it's the end of the phase when you move the last unit. Unless you're treating the end of the phase as during the phase for some things and not for others.
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).
Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).
The problem is getting to move a unit when/after you have reinforcements coming in (from sequencing, moving units after refinforcements arrive). If they have meant for that to be able to be done, they wouldn't bother saying that reinforcments come in at the end of the phase. They'd just say during the movement phase, and let you move units before or after they arrive.
If iti doesn't work for movement, it doesn't work for stratagems either from a consistency standpoint.
Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.
Because, its nonsensical.
The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.
But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.
So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).
You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).
Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).
The problem is that you that don't "declare" when you are moving a model. That's not how the rule is written.
Are you done with movement phase and moving on to the psychic phase?
If yes, perform end of movement phase actions.
If no, then you're not at end of phase yet.
If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.
If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.
You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.
END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)
Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).
You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.
No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.
This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;
"They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."
It's also ironic that you use the exact point I am making to try and disprove me. If GW wanted you to use this during the point where you play reinforcements AND during the rest of the movement phase they would have put "at the start of, during and at the end of the phase you may select one......". They didn't. Because you're not to use it at the end.
If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.
You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.
END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)
Words have meanings, meanings are important.
None of these actions happen after the movement phase. They happen at the end of the movement phase. When you are done performing movement phase actions the movement phase ends and end of movement phase actions happen. Is it technically after or during it's own special twilight-zone phase? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. You cannot reach the "end of movement phase" actions until you are done with the movement phase. If you are doing anything else that isn't an "end of movement phase" action, you aren't done with the movement phase and cannot be performing end of movement phase actions.
Also, cute entry from the dictionary. Quite literally the next entry in the dictionary for "end":
1.1 A termination of a state or situation.
‘the party called for an end to violence’
‘one notice will be effective to bring the tenancy to an end’
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, to get super extra cute with definitions, if the end of the movement phase is the final part of something and then you do something else, I guess you weren't actually at the final part of something now were you?
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.
ian wrote: Has everbody just dismissed the example i have given ? It difines what end of means.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And its not just arguing about definations its an example of how the rules see it
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only response i have had is there is no active player but that doesnt really hold up
That was directed at myself and rotborn, I'm pretty sure.
While that example seems pretty clear cut for what "end of" means I'm sure others will still argue this to death as it isn't specifically referring to phases.
Its always a players turn during a battle round. So when they say that if its not in a players turn ie .......at the end of the battle round....... then roll off (paraphasing)
If you follow this then no stratagem thats states during can be used if end of has started because the examples given show us what to do in these situations
This is not just my interpretation its backed up by rules sources
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have given a second example now that refers directly to turns which is stated as happening during the battle round . The locations i have posted above
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thank you for the reply
I have given 2 examples now one thats loosly defined because of the term phase
And on that is better defined because it uses turns
Automatically Appended Next Post: And i am now starting to see how this will carry on and for some strange reason i keep getting drawn back into it, there should be an extra warning on you make da call .... can be extermly addictive
Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).
You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.
No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.
This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;
What's tiring is everyone's refusal to acknowledge the meaning of words within the English language. The plain meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" is undeniable. You can try to claim that "END" means after, but it doesn't hold water. They are two separate parts of speech that have different meanings. END means within a period of time and AFTER means following a period of time. Why is this so hard to grasp?
An Actual Englishman wrote: "They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
This is insane.
During means at any point within a period of time; the movement phase is a period of time.
Reinforcements occur at the end of the Movement Phase; Again, the movement phase is a period of time.
The end of a period of time, is still within that same period of time. Therefore, the stratagem can be played simultaneously with reinforcements, as they are both resolved at the same time within the movement phase. This is refuted only by changing the meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" to fit how you feel the rule was intended.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."
Here you seem to almost understand the distinction between END and AFTER (your parenthetical led you off the path, though). Two rules resolving at the same time doesn't mean that they occur AFTER the phase. They both occur simultaneously at the END.
Àll you are doing is arguing about the defination of end of . It dosnt mean just one thing most of the english langue is made up of words that mean many diffrent things
Look at the examples i have provided much more evidence then contuning to try and say end of just means during
At the end of :
The film turn it off
My life bury me
Reading this book put it on the shelf
All of these instruction actions happen after the first action has finnished ie i cant put the book on the shelf until i am not reading it anymore .
Now i am sure you can come back with a hundred diffrent ways end of can mean what you want it to mean which is why i recommend eiter accepting its not clear or trying to find somthing in the rules to support your claim
If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.
You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.
END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)
Words have meanings, meanings are important.
None of these actions happen after the movement phase. They happen at the end of the movement phase. When you are done performing movement phase actions the movement phase ends and end of movement phase actions happen. Is it technically after or during it's own special twilight-zone phase? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. You cannot reach the "end of movement phase" actions until you are done with the movement phase. If you are doing anything else that isn't an "end of movement phase" action, you aren't done with the movement phase and cannot be performing end of movement phase actions.
Also, cute entry from the dictionary. Quite literally the next entry in the dictionary for "end":
1.1 A termination of a state or situation.
‘the party called for an end to violence’
‘one notice will be effective to bring the tenancy to an end’
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, to get super extra cute with definitions, if the end of the movement phase is the final part of something and then you do something else, I guess you weren't actually at the final part of something now were you?
No need to get upset buddy. We're just talkin' 40k rules.
The idea that reinforcements occur in their own special phase, that is not a phase, but is at the end of phase, which, by the way, is outside of the phase is ridiculous. The secondary definition of "End" would create a new phase, and, is therefore not contextually sound. The Battle Round is clearly defined as only having six phases on page 176 of the rule book.
As to your super extra cute point, this is resolved via the Sequencing rule.
It's also important to remember that the purpose of stratagems is to effectively "break" the normal rules of the game.
Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).
You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.
No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.
This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;
What's tiring is everyone's refusal to acknowledge the meaning of words within the English language. The plain meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" is undeniable. You can try to claim that "END" means after, but it doesn't hold water. They are two separate parts of speech that have different meanings. END means within a period of time and AFTER means following a period of time. Why is this so hard to grasp?
An Actual Englishman wrote: "They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
This is insane. (This is also the point where I was genuinely unpleasant. Sorry Englishman)
During means at any point within a period of time; the movement phase is a period of time.
Reinforcements occur at the end of the Movement Phase; Again, the movement phase is a period of time.
The end of a period of time, is still within that same period of time. Therefore, the stratagem can be played simultaneously with reinforcements, as they are both resolved at the same time within the movement phase. This is refuted only by changing the meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" to fit how you feel the rule was intended.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."
Here you seem to almost understand the distinction between END and AFTER (your parenthetical led you off the path, though). Two rules resolving at the same time doesn't mean that they occur AFTER the phase. They both occur simultaneously at the END.
Can you address my point of it not mattering whether it has a special phase or a subset of a phase? Because the point is that if you do something after an "end", then it wasn't an "end".
Also, strategems have words that mean things. During, I believe, has some meanings that are rather incompatible with happening after an "end".
I now agree that there are clearly two reasonable interpretations of what “end of the phase” actually means.
I do not believe we can get past that. As such, this will have to be filed under, definitely needs an FAQ clarification.
Thanks to all of you in helping me wrap my head around this issue. If I pissed any of you off, I’m sorry! I promise if we were on the phone or in person, you wouldn’t get offended!
"During your movement phase" can include any actions made before, in the middle of, but not After; "At the end of you movement phase actions.
This stratagem can be placed upon any unit at any point before the final model(of the last unit coming in from reserve this turn) is set-up.
During a phase, without further restriction, can be performed up until the very last action of the end of that phase is performed.
E.G: in this case; 2 units of Blightlord Terminators are coming in on this turn, You could use cloud of flies at any point in the first unit's set-up, or at any point in the second unit's set-up; no matter which unit(including those that have been on table since the start of the movement phase) you are using the strategem upon.
Note:every word after this break makes me feel dirty and sad that it has to be said to you people.
obviously, this is only a blanket for "during X phase" without any other qualifiers(Y's X Phase; other than the assumed or stated "Your", etc).
If we are all agreeing that there are no subphase or parts inbetween
Then dosnt that mean there isnt a subphase or part inbetween battle round and a turn happening or ending
If we all agree on this than the example on squencing rules proves that when the phrase "at the end of " is used in the rules it "effectivly" means your no longer using rules that apply during
Ie when its during a battle round it is somebodys turn they get to choose the order of things
When its at the end of a battle round it isnt sombodys turn and they dont get to choose the order of things
So far there has been its means its not the active players turn, but this implies "space" between a battle round and turn which would mean more "spaces" could exsist (which dosnt seem to be the accepted way)
If anybody has an argument against using the example as a clear way to treat "at the end of" i would really like to hear it with refrence to an example or rules and not hiwpi I have provided the location of 2 examples of the use of end of in my pervouis post
I understand what RotBorn is saying with regards during also being a part of the movement phase. This is absolutely correct as the English language definition.
As Ghazzy said earlier though, we can't use dictionary definitions for this game. We are talking about rules for a game and so that can be misleading.
My interpretation is that irrespective of where "during the phase" lies in the phase sequence, "at the end of the phase" must be after it. I don't think there is a sub phase. I don't think there is a special reinforcement time. I just think that GW have written their rules to distinguish what must be done last "at the end of...", what can be done before that point "during the.." and what must be done first "at the start of...". I could be wrong but it's just my take based on other, similar rules.
Re cloud of flies specifically - GW could have given no particular time to play it. They could have just said "Pick a Death Guard unit...." which is what I think they would have done if they wanted to grant the flexibility to play it after reinforcements. They also could have written "At any point in the movement phase...". 'During' to me is a clear distinguishing time in GW speak before the end of the phase.
Except when we interpret GW speak from what is actually written we are in subjective RAI territory. Many of the badly written GW rules would function better if you added or removed a qualifier.
Re cloud of flies specifically - GW could have given no particular time to play it. They could have just said "Pick a Death Guard unit...." which is what I think they would have done if they wanted to grant the flexibility to play it after reinforcements. They also could have written "At any point in the movement phase...". 'During' to me is a clear distinguishing time in GW speak before the end of the phase.
This is very true. as stated by Rotborn several pages ago It is still unclear whether you can play Cloud of flies on a unit that is in reserves that you intend to bring in on that turn. I refer you to a similar debate we had quite a while ago regarding using the GK stratagem heed the prognosticars on a GMNDK in the teleportarium.
ian wrote: So is the example i have given being disregard as a clear way to work out what to do
when its during a battle round it is somebodys turn they get to choose the order of things
When its during the movement phase it is that phase and can use any stratagem
When its at the end of a battle round it isnt sombodys turn and they dont get to choose the order of things
When its at the end of the movement phase its isnt the movement phase anymore so cant use movement phase stratagems
I have copyed the example
Surly this is the most accurate way to play with the rules and examples we have ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And i have done my best to not put my spin on it i have just overlaid the 2 examples
Your example is not analogous. The end of the battle round occurs after the end of the 2nd payers turn. "Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed and the next one begins, and so on, until the battle is concluded."
As other posters have mentioned the end is ambiguous. For example:
The player scored a goal at the end of the match.
The referee declared the home team as the winners at the end of the match.
One is during the game, the other is after the game has been concluded. There is not enough context to determine what usage is correct for Cloud of Flies.
I complety agree that end of is ambiguous on its own and have contributed to that debate
Ok so hopfully this will be even stronger evidence
Sequencing
......... when this happens during a game the players whos turn it is chooses the order if these things happen . If these thing happen before or after the game or at the start or end of a battle the players roll off.
Here we can see that all of these points are used in the same context with during also inculded and more importanly they have the same result which strongly inplies they are the same thing from the rules point of view
If these thing happen
"Before the start of the game" "at the start of the battle round" = its not during the game or battle round
"After the game" " at the end of the battle round "
= its not during the game or battle round
I think this is really important becaues they are all used together in the same example to mean effectivly the same thing from this rule i can only conculded
At the start of means "before"
At the end of means "after"
I am really kean to hear anybody eles take on my reasoning and if theres another to look at this rule
ian wrote: Sequencing
......... when this happens during a game the players whos turn it is chooses the order if these things happen . If these thing happen before or after the game or at the start or end of a battle the players roll off.
Here we can see that all of these points are used in the same context with during also inculded and more importanly they have the same result which strongly inplies they are the same thing from the rules point of view
If these thing happen
"Before the start of the game" "at the start of the battle round" = its not during the game or battle round
"After the game" " at the end of the battle round "
= its not during the game or battle round
But that's not what the sequencing rules actually say so your conclusions are all wrong.
Sequencing Rules wrote:... When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
Specifically it says that 4 things are not a part of a players turn:
1) Before the game
2) After the game
3) The start of a battle round
4) The end of a battle round
Conflating 'before the game' with 'at the start of a battle round' is wrong. For example, the start of battle round 2 is clearly not before the game. The rest of your argument falls apart from there.
No, they are used in a different sub-context to refer to different things. If they were talking about the same period of time then you would have a strong example of before/start and after/end within the rules, but they're not.
"During each battle round, both players have a turn. ...Once a player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn" - BRB on the battle round
From the information in sequencing we conclude that the first players turn begins after the start of the battle round.
The second players turn starts after the first players turn has ended.
If you have a point to make then make it, otherwise your questions are answered in the rule book with little ambiguity. They don't support your prior assertion that before is equivalent of start.
Start of/before game, and start of (x) Players turn has nothing to do with "During your movement phase."
You may as well be asking what damage vs mortal wounds means for all the use it does in any of this discussion.
Also a Player's turn starts immediately after the other player declares there turn over, or once you have gotten to the first turn conditions of the mission and the declared first turn player states he is beginning his turn with the movement phase.
Figuring out what both of these mean will let us know what they mean in other situations, its relavent because its an example
Jakesiren
Am i correct in thinking that you beleave theres is a space inbetween battle round and turn? So in theory we should declare the battle round has started, then declare a turn has started. So anything that needs to happen at these point can so there not considered part of a turn. So at the end of the battle round it should go like this.
Declare my turn is over. Declare end of battleround. Declare start of battleround. Declare start of turn.
Kommissar kel
Am i correct in thinking that you beleave everthing happens immediately so there is no space inbetween so during a battleround it is always a players turn. So the battleround begins by the first player having there turn. Then its the second players turn , then the battle round ends by the first player starting there turn on the new battle round.
I hope i have understood both of your arguments and apllied them correctly to a battle round please correct me if i didnt.
Jakesiren
In this example your right my examples are not conculsive and we are left with trying to define the words ie "end of" which as discused is not clear. There is also no permission given to seprate things by declaring them which could be a sticking point.
Kommissar kel
In this example my example does provide a meaning to end of. Because it would always be considered to by somebodys turn . The phase "at the end of " works as a trigger that means for rules purposes that it is not longer a players turn. This would translate directly to the same thing with "at the end of the movement phase" that would be the trigger that means for rules purposes its no longer the movement phases. I think its important to note that i am only using an example to figure out a meaning and i am not interpating it .
I asked the question to get other view points and it would appear that there are two ways to look at how the game plays
ian wrote: Figuring out what both of these mean will let us know what they mean in other situations, its relavent because its an example
Jakesiren Am i correct in thinking that you beleave theres is a space inbetween battle round and turn? So in theory we should declare the battle round has started, then declare a turn has started. So anything that needs to happen at these point can so there not considered part of a turn. So at the end of the battle round it should go like this. Declare my turn is over. Declare end of battleround. Declare start of battleround. Declare start of turn.
Jakesiren In this example your right my examples are not conculsive and we are left with trying to define the words ie "end of" which as discused is not clear. There is also no permission given to seprate things by declaring them which could be a sticking point.
Did you even read the rules I quoted? They literally say that certain things happen after other things. This occurs weather or not you "declare" them; the same way a psychic phase still occurs even if you have no Psykers and move straight onto shooting (nice Strawman by the way, "declare" is not verbiage that I used)
ian wrote: I asked the question to get other view points and it would appear that there are two ways to look at how the game plays
Evidence? I only see yours as differing view - trying to conflate before with start, and end with after - which interestingly you have not backed up with rules supporting your assertion. Again, if you have a point then make it, however I can only conclude that your argument has no substance since you have consistently failed to do so.
Yes i have read the rules many times, so far i think i have been the only one trying to use an example from the rule book or stratgem to support what i am saying
I think you have missed the point
Yes a physic phase does happen even if you dont have to use it because its a named thing
What is the end of the battle round ? Because that sentance is just pointing to a point in time. Its not defined as somthing that happens. It does tell us what happens when that point is reached and that is the battleround is complete and the next one starts. then i refer you to my second point.
1st battle round ends and 2nd battle round begins.
We neither have, nor need, an arbitrary amount of time for separation.
If something either happens, or is to be declared,. at the start, or end, of a players turn or battle round; it is simply the first or last thing done in that turn or round.
Example: "at the start of your turn" cannot be done after you have moved any models(although most rules with similar wording state "at the beginning of your movemt phase" to avoid any of these issues to begin with); because in this case you have already moved well past the beginning of your movemt phase.
In the case that we are actually discussing: "during your movement phase" can be used or declared at any point from when you are commiting to actions at the "start of your movement phase" or at the "end of your movement phase" because both of those are still a part of your movement phase, and thuse "during your movement phase".
ian wrote: What is the end of the battle round ? Because that sentance is just pointing to a point in time. Its not defined as somthing that happens. It does tell us what happens when that point is reached and that is the battleround is complete and the next one starts. then i refer you to my second point.
The end of a battle round is something that happens and is defined in the rule book. I refer you to the BRB on "The battle round". The rest of your sentence is incomprehensible.
ian wrote: Its not simple the last thing done please look at the example. When at the end of is used it means it is no longer happening
ian wrote: If we take you view than when a player turn is done its the next players turn
Kommissar Kel is correct. The rules explicitly say there is no time between the end of player 1's turn, and the start of player 2's turn: "Once a player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn" - BRB on the battle round. There is also no time between the end of player 2's turn and the end of the battle round, nor the end of the battle round and the start of the next.
Ian, I suggest you take a step back for a moment and re-read all of the relevant material. You are trying to argue directly against what the rule book says and are demonstrably wrong - you haven't introduced any counter points that haven't yet already been debunked.
There are a few situations where you will be told to resolve something in the space between turns or battle rounds, but otherwise you go directly to the next turn, battle round, etc. One example is the AdMech Clandestine Infiltration Stratagem. It tells you to reveal the location of a unit setup in ambush during deployment "at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins." In the event both players had used a Stratagem or ability that was resolved in this same space then they would roll off to determine who resolved their action first since it's not currently either player's turn.
@ian The BRB section you keep referring to is simply telling you to roll off in those situations, not telling you there's this gap of time in-between battle rounds, turns, phases, etc.
it would appear because my post have been split up during this debate It would be helpful for some if I summarised which I will do now
Automatically Appended Next Post: Firstly, I am trying to define what “at the end of “means by using the only 2 examples I can find.
I think it is agreed that using the English definition of “end of” is inconclusive due to it meaning different things
The discussion about if “at the end of the movement phase” stratagem and that trigger still being part of the movement phase can hopefully be resolved by these 2 examples
This argument is based on the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening.
So, the movement phase ends by the psychic phase starting, the turn ends by the next players turn beginning, and the battle round ends by the first player starting their turn.
Or another way using the same logic a battle round starts by the first player picking a unit to move. so, in all these situations we are during a phase
Strategic discipline
The same stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’
How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a phase anymore. So I can use multiple stratagems
Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000. You’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘ at the start of the movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game , the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game. Or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
Firstly, this tells us that when we are in a players turn that they decided the order of things. It also tells us that before or after the game we have to roll off meaning it’s not a players turn.
it also tells us that at the end of a battle round we have to roll off meaning its not a players turn.
How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase, so its still my turn.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a players turn anymore. So we have to roll off
So there are two conclusions either
We have to always consider that a phase is happening once the battle round has begun, and “at the end of “ works like a trigger so you are no longer in what its referring too.
Or
We have to consider that there are points in the game where a phase/ turn isn’t happening. to give an example if we where teaching somebody to play we would say.
“this is the end of my turn , now it’s the end of the battle round so its not considered a phase or a players turn if you have any stratagems to play and now we move onto your turn.”
I am not saying this has to be declared but it has to be conveyed some how because we know that’s true from the examples.
I hope I have laid out my reasoning in the clearest way possible.
ian wrote: it would appear because my post have been split up during this debate It would be helpful for some if I summarised which I will do now
Automatically Appended Next Post: Firstly, I am trying to define what “at the end of “means by using the only 2 examples I can find.
I think it is agreed that using the English definition of “end of” is inconclusive due to it meaning different things
The discussion about if “at the end of the movement phase” stratagem and that trigger still being part of the movement phase can hopefully be resolved by these 2 examples
This argument is based on the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening.
This notion is not correct and I don't know where you found it. I suggest you look up what a series is and how they work. You will see why this notion is wrong: "Each turn consists of a series of phases" - BRB on The Battle Round.
To be honest, I was going to respond to all of this, but it's based off your incorrect notion so there's no point in addressing it. It would only serve to distract from the root problem of your argument.
You should try reading the rules plainly and not trying to "interpret" them to suit a purpose.
Mybe your missing the point that has been implied though out and has been the argument that during is also at the end of .
Please stop just saying i am incorrect and i should look up stuff as if your view is absolute
A series can mean many diffrent things depending on what context it is in.
Mybe looking at my conculsion you will see i address the diffrent view point.
Mybe you should stop interpretating the rules and provide an explaination of what a battle round is and how we move from one thing happening to another , and how we define if at "at the end of " means during it or after
In this context a series is a number of events occurring one after another.
Warhammer 40k is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn. Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:
1. Movement phase
2. Psychic phase
3. Shooting phase
4. Charge phase
5. Fight phase
6. Morale phase
Once the first player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn. Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed and the next one begins, and so on, until the battle is concluded.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and at what point is it the " at the end of"
Automatically Appended Next Post: And just because somthing happens one after another does not mean that they have no end point
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ian wrote: it would appear because my post have been split up during this debate It would be helpful for some if I summarised which I will do now
Automatically Appended Next Post: Firstly, I am trying to define what “at the end of “means by using the only 2 examples I can find.
I think it is agreed that using the English definition of “end of” is inconclusive due to it meaning different things
The discussion about if “at the end of the movement phase” stratagem and that trigger still being part of the movement phase can hopefully be resolved by these 2 examples
This argument is based on the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening.
So, the movement phase ends by the psychic phase starting, the turn ends by the next players turn beginning, and the battle round ends by the first player starting their turn.
Or another way using the same logic a battle round starts by the first player picking a unit to move. so, in all these situations we are during a phase
Strategic discipline
The same stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’
How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a phase anymore. So I can use multiple stratagems
Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000. You’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘ at the start of the movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game , the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game. Or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
Firstly, this tells us that when we are in a players turn that they decided the order of things. It also tells us that before or after the game we have to roll off meaning it’s not a players turn.
it also tells us that at the end of a battle round we have to roll off meaning its not a players turn.
How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase, so its still my turn.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a players turn anymore. So we have to roll off
So there are two conclusions either
We have to always consider that a phase is happening once the battle round has begun, and “at the end of “ works like a trigger so you are no longer in what its referring too.
Or
We have to consider that there are points in the game where a phase/ turn isn’t happening. to give an example if we where teaching somebody to play we would say.
“this is the end of my turn , now it’s the end of the battle round so its not considered a phase or a players turn if you have any stratagems to play and now we move onto your turn.”
I am not saying this has to be declared but it has to be conveyed some how because we know that’s true from the examples.
I hope I have laid out my reasoning in the clearest way possible.
If anybody has another explanation of how a battle round plays and how we determine when its considered the end of somthing ie is it still during is it after that would be brilliant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to be clear i dont think that there is a clear way to resovle which is why i am trying to find as many was as possible to view it
The movement phase finishes when both players declare that they have no further actions to complete in the phase and any "at the end of the movement phase" actions have been completed.
So your saying that at the end of the movement phase is happening during the movement phase because it hasnt ended yet because you have to complete that action before the physic phase starts
Same with battle round
End of can mean before or after the event and both is basic english .
Automatically Appended Next Post: You seem to be inculding the end of event as part of the event ie it has to happen before its the psychic phase
Can you please be specific as to when the end of is occuring
But it sounds like you beleave that it happens during if that is the case than if you look at my big post it shows how in both examples at the end of is used as a trigger to mean not during the event
ian wrote: If you look back you can see examples of this ,
I don't wish to wade through 180+ posts. Care to provide an example with correct usage?
ian wrote: But it sounds like you beleave that it happens during if that is the case than if you look at my big post it shows how in both examples at the end of is used as a trigger to mean not during the event
Your entire big post was based off an incorrect notion. You have failed to back up "the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening" with evidence. Therefore any conclusions contained within can not be relied upon with any accuracy.
The rules are clear that phases are in a series. You must complete phase A before you can move onto phase B. If something is outside of phase A then it is not a part of phase A. You are trying to claim that a thing outside of a phase is a part of the phase with your usage of "end" to mean after. If something is after an event then it is no longer a part of it.
Sorry if this has been referenced already and I missed it, but there is clear evidence it can be in a battle round but not be in a player's turn (and therefore not be during any phase either).
The evidence is the wording of the Strike From The Shadows stratagem, which causes something to happen at the beginning of the first Battle Round but before the first player's turn.
If they don’t want Cloud of Flies to affect reinforcements on the turn they arrive, one of two things needs to happen:
1. Errata the stratagem to read, “at the start of...”,
Or,
2. FAQ that reinforcements occur outside of the movement phase.
Or we could do things that must happen during the movement phase before things that must happen at the end of the movement phase and then this isn't an issue.
Once again, if you're doing something after completing an "end of movement phase" action then it really wasn't the end of the movement phase and you couldn't have deployed those reinforcements.
If they don’t want Cloud of Flies to affect reinforcements on the turn they arrive, one of two things needs to happen:
1. Errata the stratagem to read, “at the start of...”,
Or,
2. FAQ that reinforcements occur outside of the movement phase.
Or we could do things that must happen during the movement phase before things that must happen at the end of the movement phase and then this isn't an issue.
Once again, if you're doing something after completing an "end of movement phase" action then it really wasn't the end of the movement phase and you couldn't have deployed those reinforcements.
I completely agree, but what if you did it at the same time?
The rules currently allow for you to perform multiple actions at the end of the movement phase.
If an end of the phase action occurs within the phase, then I don’t see why you couldn’t simultaneously use cloud of flies.
However, if an end of the phase action occurs outside of the phase, then you obviously shouldn’t be able to use it.
This is addressed (partially) on page 178 in the "Sequencing" side bar. For rules that each have "at the start of" or "at the end of", you use that side bar.
So this is an explicit exception for "something isn't actually happening right when you were told to do it".
But cloud of flies doesn't have "at the end of", it has "during". It can't compete with reinforcements for an "at the end of" sequencing exception.
Part of the problem, I think, is that we don't have Magic the Gathering priority/interrupt rules. There's nothing in the 40k book that says we can interject an action after an "end of the ..."
I'm also 99% sure we cannot do things simultaneously, based on the sequencing rule. I think there are also rules that would get pretty silly if we started doing everything that way.
ian wrote: Firstly i am providing the 2 emerging ways to look at the situation. I actually started with the notion that there points inbetween things .
At the end of his speach the crowd clapped.
Is an example
Your example doesn't illustrate what you think it does.
A speech consists of 3 parts. The start / introduction, the middle, and the end / conclusion. If the crowd started clapping at the end / conclusion of the speech then they have started clapping during the speech. If they have started clapping after the conclusion of the speech then they have started clapping after the end.
ian wrote: All series means is it happens one fter the other it dosnt tell us what happens inbetween
You have also to prove the notion that things do not happen imediatly with reference to evidence
Series just means jn order it does not help with timing
Series does help with timing. We know that phase A must be fully completed before phase B can occur.
ian wrote: So am i right in thinking that you agree with my second conclusion ? Where we are left with just the defination of end of which isnt clear.
I have noted the other stratagems that happen inbetween but there specify both ends of it. End of is just one part
Your second conclusion is correct as far as there is time during the game where it is neither during a phase or during a players turn. The rules are clear on this point.
The definition of end in this context is clear as per my point above.
PoorGravitasHandling wrote: This is addressed (partially) on page 178 in the "Sequencing" side bar. For rules that each have "at the start of" or "at the end of", you use that side bar.
So this is an explicit exception for "something isn't actually happening right when you were told to do it".
But cloud of flies doesn't have "at the end of", it has "during". It can't compete with reinforcements for an "at the end of" sequencing exception.
Part of the problem, I think, is that we don't have Magic the Gathering priority/interrupt rules. There's nothing in the 40k book that says we can interject an action after an "end of the ..."
I'm also 99% sure we cannot do things simultaneously, based on the sequencing rule. I think there are also rules that would get pretty silly if we started doing everything that way.
That’s not quite what sequencing says...
It actually says “...you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally ‘at the start of the movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’.
The question is, what does “are to be resolved” mean? They only give two examples, coupled with the ambiguously open-ended “normally” preface. This does not seem to preclude a rule like cloud of flies (which is open-ended in its timing within the phase) from resolving at the end of a phase.
As far as simultaneous actions, there are actually quite a few stratagems that happen simultaneously with other actions (Dark Pact, Iron Within..., Warriors of the Raging Winds, etc.)
Im sorry but you have just broken down the speach into 3 parts which is complety subjective, when does the end start 10 mins before the end or mybe 15 mins. Is it the last paragraph. A speach does not have to be 3 parts
Mybe this will help
At the end of my life bury me.
The plain meaning of this sentance is when my life has ended bury me its that simple and there wouldnt be any confusion as when to bury me they would do it after i was dead.
Could you imagine using your example as an excuse to why your grandad is buryed alive, sorry i thought he had reached the end part of his life and on his will he wrote at the end of my life bury me.
The series helps only so far as we know what order the phases must happen. It does not state we must complete them merly resovle them in order. an example there are 6 episodes in the tv series. I can watch episodes 1,3,4,5 this is fine i cannot watch episodes 1,3,2,4,5 as i have broken the series.
In game terms tau do not have a physic phase it dosnt happen and is not required to happen for me to follow the correct oder
This part mite be even more relvant to the whole disscusion
once both players have completed a turn the battle round has been completed and the next one begins
If we look at this in a less abstract way and apply it to real life where the game is played , what we are left with is cause and effect
We are never required by the game to declare any point in time the only things we are required to do is pick units.
The cause the last moral check is complete the effect i pick a model to move.
We are also told this is the case by the rules above, once complete the next one begins we are not instucted to do anything else but begin the next battle round. Because we can only do what we have permission to do that means we have to pick a model to begin the next turn. We cannot declare it or do anything eles
I think i mite have just disproved the notion of space inbetween, meaning we are always in a phase and the phrases "at the end of " ect are triggers they are not points in time which means that you can look at the examples for the meaning of "end of"
Automatically Appended Next Post: And they mean you are not consider to be during it
ian wrote: Im sorry but you have just broken down the speach into 3 parts which is complety subjective, when does the end start 10 mins before the end or mybe 15 mins. Is it the last paragraph. A speach does not have to be 3 parts
Check how to write a speech, from my brief web search all of the material includes the introduction, the body, and the conclusion. Some people break it down further, but these are the basic parts of a speech weather your like it or not.
At the end of my life bury me. The plain meaning of this sentance is when my life has ended bury me its that simple and there wouldnt be any confusion as when to bury me they would do it after i was dead.
Could you imagine using your example as an excuse to why your grandad is buryed alive, sorry i thought he had reached the end part of his life and on his will he wrote at the end of my life bury me.
Except that phrase is not valid English. In fact a Google search for that exact phrase only returns this topic which shows exactly how wrong the phrasing is.
The correct phrase would be "After I die bury me".
ian wrote: The series helps only so far as we know what order the phases must happen. It does not state we must complete them merly resovle them in order. an example there are 6 episodes in the tv series. I can watch episodes 1,3,4,5 this is fine i cannot watch episodes 1,3,2,4,5 as i have broken the series.
What do you think resolve means? Is the phase resolved? Yes or no? If yes, then you can move onto the next phase in the order, if no then you can not.
In your example you can watch episodes 1,3,2,4,5 but things stop making sense, like the game rules if you don't do things in the correct order. If you stop half way through episode 1 to watch episode 2 then things also stop making sense, just like the phases.
Just to be clear, are you seriously saying that you think that we can be in two phases at once? Because if so there is no reasoning with you.
In game terms tau do not have a physic phase it dosnt happen and is not required to happen for me to follow the correct oder
Actually the rules are quite explicit in that they do. They psychic phase is incredibly short, and most players will indicate that it's over by declaring that they are starting with the shooting phase after completing movement. If the opponent had a stratagem they want to play in the psychic phase they would say "Hey, I'm doing this in your psychic phase even though you aren't taking any actions"
ian wrote: This part mite be even more relvant to the whole disscusion
once both players have completed a turn the battle round has been completed and the next one begins
If we look at this in a less abstract way and apply it to real life where the game is played , what we are left with is cause and effect
I don't think this means what you think it means. We have a series of instructions to follow. The rules are literally laid out to say, Do A, Do B, Do C, etcetera in this order.
ian wrote: *and the rest of the argument based on faulty premise*
No a speach is a speach if you want to break it down thats fine but it doesnt mean my sentance was wrong, and you failed to tell me how you would define the end part has begun
Yes it is english mybe not the best grammer but its serves the purpose, that "end of " does not always mean during in the clearist way i could find.
The rule states must be resovled in order, it does not state they have to be completed or started. Just the order has to be followed meaning you cannot mix them up. No i wasnt saying you can be in two phases at the same time (not sure where you got that from)
Ok if they are instructions can you please let me know where it instructs you to declare that your phase is over or anything is over.
Following instructions is the effectivly the same as cause and effect.
I complete my moral it then instructs me to begin the next battle round which means i pick a unit to move. If you can find some instructions for what i have to do at the end of the battle round or turn that would help otherwise the net result is the same
I roll my last moral dice then a unit is picked to move
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some key points
We are never required to declare the end of things
We are only required to pick units in phases ( except the moral phase where we must take the test)
The only way we can move from one phase to another is by picking a unit
This is the same for the end of the battle round we are told what it means when 2 people have had there turn and it means the battle round has been completed
But we are still stuck with the only way to start another phase and in the process end the other one is by picking a unit
ian wrote: No a speach is a speach if you want to break it down thats fine but it doesnt mean my sentance was wrong, and you failed to tell me how you would define the end part has begun
It means your sentence doesn't illustrate the point you thought it should.
In regards to determining the end part, when talking about a phase, has the body of the phase been completed? If so then we resolve the end part of the phase. This is the point that the end part begins.
ian wrote: Yes it is english mybe not the best grammer but its serves the purpose, that "end of " does not always mean during in the clearist way i could find.
No, it means that your usage is wrong. You can't frame an argument around the incorrect usage of a word. I've demonstrated that your usage is wrong and you are unable to provide a correct usage that supports your version of "after". Ergo, it does not exist and is wrong.
ian wrote: The rule states must be resovled in order, it does not state they have to be completed or started. Just the order has to be followed meaning you cannot mix them up. No i wasnt saying you can be in two phases at the same time (not sure where you got that from)
I asked you before, what do you think resolve means? Because clearly you don't think it means to complete something. If I select a unit to shoot and resolve it's shooting attack, when does it's shooting attack finish (hint: it's after it has been resolved)
ian wrote: Ok if they are instructions can you please let me know where it instructs you to declare that your phase is over or anything is over.
When it tells you to resolve each phase in order. But it appears that your understanding of the word resolve is incorrect.
ian wrote: Following instructions is the same as cause and effect.
Wrong. I explained earlier, please re-read. (Unless you wish to say the cause is following instructions and the effect is the outcome of following those instructions, which is then correct)
ian wrote: I complete my moral it then instructs me to begin the next battle round which means i pick a unit to move.
Wrong. Re-read the battle round. Your resolve your moral phase. Then you finish your turn. Then (depending on who went first) the 2nd player starts their turn, or you resolve the end of battle round actions.
ian wrote: If you can find some instructions for what i have to do at the end of the battle round or turn that would help otherwise the net result is the same
You never played a mission with variable game length?
We are never required to declare the end of things
We are only required to pick units in phases ( except the moral phase where we must take the test)
The only way we can move from one phase to another is by picking a unit
This is the same for the end of the battle round we are told what it means when 2 people have had there turn and it means the battle round has been completed
But we are still stuck with the only way to start another phase and in the process end the other one is by picking a unit
How do you even start a game with this logic? You aren't required to declare a start the game, ergo, you are not allowed to play.
We ate at the dinner table. but We ate in the dining room.
At in all these examples refers to a specific time or location; in refers to being inside a general area. At the end is used to point to the end as a specific point in time, whilst in the end is used, more idiomatically, to talk about a general “end” zone: the summary or conclusion.
Pulled from an english lesson
Hope that clears that up onto the next thing
Resovled does not mean complete so that notion is wrong
If i have not mixed up the order of phases ,then i have resovled them correctly i do not have to complete them
On to the next point
How do you resovle (dosent mean complete) your morale phase? Remmber we are only allowed to do things we have permission for which is picking a unit , if you are going to say once you finnished rolling its completed then you have to remmber the rules state once the battle round is complete the next one begins. Meaning the only action you can do is pick a unit it works like a loop with things interupting it
Automatically Appended Next Post: You start a game by following the instructions ie only war in the free rules
Dictionary corner is great and all, but nothing being discussed is actually helping illuminate anything to do with the topic. It's just linguistic tennis now.
Thank you i wasnt going to go there but it was hard not too. It has provided what could be a valid point on the use of "at the end of " that i hadnt looked into
its not a defination of a word so i dont beleave it breaks the rules.
Some key points based on how the game is played when its not an abstract thought process
We are never required or given permission to declare the end of things
We are only given permission to pick units in phases ( except the moral phase where we must take the test)
The only way we can move from one phase to another is by picking a unit which ends the last one.
So it would appear once the first phase has begun we are stuck in a loop where certain rules interupt forcing it to be a certain point, and the battleround is just a count of how many times we have gone round rather than somthing we have to do.
JohnnyHell wrote: Dictionary corner is great and all, but nothing being discussed is actually helping illuminate anything to do with the topic. It's just linguistic tennis now.
Quite right, I can sometimes forget myself when I get into these discussions.
At the end of the day we know that the end period of the phase is a part of the phase. Any part of a phase is self evidently during that phase. The end period of a phase only occurs once the main body of the phase has been resolved - so in the example that the OP stated once all movement has been concluded the " at the end of the movement phase" actions take place. Until the phase has completed it is still during the movement phase and Cloud of Flies can be played.
ian wrote: Sorry i need to correct you there its your view that its part of the phase.
I have provided the evidence you required which actualy points to the correct usage of the sentance
" at the end of" it dose not mean during the end part. Feel free to argue that point but you can never claim that is the definate correct way
Ian, I have no intention of discussing the meaning with you any further. I have already explained why your argument is incorrect, however you are free to have your own incorrect opinion. All of the reasoning is available for other readers to analyse and come to their own conclusions.
I agree its pointless to discus this with you. but i dislike your implaication that i was wrong and you where right when i have provided a clear and valid way to use "at the end of" and if your view is indeed the only way that sentance could be used my example would not exsist. Here is the reference location should anybody wish to view it http://www.englishlessonsbrighton.co.uk/at-the-end-in-the-end-examples/ though out this debate i have tryed to be polite and see the differing view points. Which in my view you have not.
Edited for clarity as i posted in haste
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last thing your are not saying my view is wrong you are saying the author of the website is wrong and he appears to be well qualified to explain the meaning.
I'm starting to think that GW didn't give us enough rules on how they intend for Stratagems to work. I can see both sides of this argument, but I'm still leaning towards "end of" is still in the phase. Until we get an Errata/FAQ this is going to be another (SIGH) thing to discuss with your opponent before hand.
Rotborn wrote: GW only has to answer one question to resolve this whole discussion:
Do reinforcements occur in the movement phase?
If they don’t want Cloud of Flies to affect reinforcements on the turn they arrive, one of two things needs to happen:
1. Errata the stratagem to read, “at the start of...”,
Or,
2. FAQ that reinforcements occur outside of the movement phase.
Do reinforcements occur at the end of the movement phase?
If they do then trying to do anything based on them would have to be specifically allowed in the thing allowed (stratagem, abitlity, etc), as it happens at the end of the round, and as was noted in the thread, you can't do something in the phase after the phase has ended. Something like Auspex has a specific note that it is triggered by reinforcements arriveing.
So
1. Errata Cloud of Flies or errata stratagems in general so that they can be used reinforcements happening at the end of the phase.
or
2. FAQ that nothing that doesn't specifically state that it's allowed to cannot be used on reinforcments at the end of a phase.
ian wrote: End of can mean before or after the event and both is basic english .
I just double checked some dictionaries to make sure, but End is never used for after.
But, end does mean "end", and after the end would be after. Playing a stratagem in response to something that happened at the end of a phase would be after the phase.
Or we could do things that must happen during the movement phase before things that must happen at the end of the movement phase and then this isn't an issue.
If you're playing something in response to something else that happens, it's not at the same time - it's after the thing that triggers your wanting to play something in response.
If you're playing something in response to something that happens at the end of the phase, it's not at the same time, it's trying to play it after the phase.
ian wrote: End of can mean before or after the event and both is basic english .
I just double checked some dictionaries to make sure, but End is never used for after.
But, end does mean "end", and after the end would be after. Playing a stratagem in response to something that happened at the end of a phase would be after the phase.
Ok, let's assume that at the end refers to the instant end point in time for a phase etc. In general how do you play stratagems that say "at the end of your x phase"? You literally do not have time to declare that you are using them as the phase is already over by the time you have started speaking! Trying to declare any earlier is too early as it is not the end of the phase!
On a less facetious point: say I have a Nurgle Daemon Prince come in from reserves. My opponent uses Auspex to shoot at the Daemon Prince. Are you saying that I am unable to play "Revolting Regeneration" at the end of my movement phase in response to him losing wounds from the Auspex shooting? Even if there are other reserves coming in at the end of my movement after Auspex is resolved?
Or we can agree that "at the end of" is a phrase that is also used to refer to a period of time leading up to the end point? Ex: At the end of the match she scored a goal.
Jake have you read the rest of the thread? Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant.
Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'. If this wasn't the case I could move units after reinforcing, since they also move 'during' the phase.
With regards your revolting regeneration stratagem example above, it entirely depends on the specific circumstances around which it can be played. If it says something along the lines of; "Whenever this model loses a wound you may..." then you can play it. If it says "On your turn, if your model has lost a wound...." then you can't etc
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jake have you read the rest of the thread? Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant.
Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'. If this wasn't the case I could move units after reinforcing, since they also move 'during' the phase.
I disagree on both points. The end of something can refer to a point after the main body has passed. For example, the end of a movie is after the main content of the movie has completed. The same with phases. Have you completed the main body of the phase? Yes, then go onto the end of the phase actions. No, then complete the main body of the phase.
An Actual Englishman wrote: With regards your revolting regeneration stratagem example above, it entirely depends on the specific circumstances around which it can be played. If it says something along the lines of; "Whenever this model loses a wound you may..." then you can play it. If it says "On your turn, if your model has lost a wound...." then you can't etc
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
Revolting Regeneration is specifically a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem. I wanted to understand Doctortom's argument better and what was allowed within the limits of the "end". Hence the example.
Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.
The body of a phase dosnt mean anything im afraid its a subjective view point primarly used in essay writing. Or another way your end part can be completly diffrent to somebody else,
just as the phrase "at the end of" can be subjective depending on weather you read it literally or figuratively
Automatically Appended Next Post: What we do know is that unless we trigger somthing to happen the game continues on in a loop .
So at the end of is a trigger that forces the game into that moment. So only things that happen within the confines of the trigger can happen.
ian wrote: The body of a phase dosnt mean anything im afraid its a subjective view point primarly used in essay writing. Or another way your end part can be completly diffrent to somebody else,
just as the phrase "at the end of" can be subjective depending on weather you read it literally or figuratively
Sure, and I think the best thing to do is to come to an understanding that has the least unexpected rules interactions and implications.
For clarity, when I'm talking about the main body of the phases, I'm talking about what is listed under each phase header in the BRB. I think this is a reasonable enough definition and is easily quantifiable, although as you duly note it is subjective.
ian wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: What we do know is that unless we trigger somthing to happen the game continues on in a loop .
So at the end of is a trigger that forces the game into that moment. So only things that happen within the confines of the trigger can happen.
If I am to understand your previous arguments (an I believe your are alluding to them with this post) If the end of a phase is not during the phase, what do you make of being able to use the same "at the end of the X phase" Stratagems within one end phase in matched play? For example, you have 3 units arrive in reserve at the end of the movement phase, and I activate Auspex 3 times in response to each unit arriving.
*Updated with quote and response to Ian's appended post*
JakeSiren wrote: Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.
We aren't here to discuss dictionary definitions. Words like "at the end" and "during" are given new meaning given the context of the rules.
I'm going to answer your question above with something I posted back on page 4 that I think covers it and could've saved this topic another 4 pages of kinda pointless discussion;
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You play Auspex when the rules on the stratagem allow you to play it. If it says during the phase, you do it then. If it says at the end of the phase you do it then instead. If it doesn't give any criteria and is a response to something else you play it as stated.
Like I've said what feels like 100 times now in this thread; GW have differentiated between "during" and "at the end of" the phase by virtue of the reinforcement rules. As this differentiation exists any stratagems that can be played "during" cannot be played at the end and vice versa. It doesn't matter that the Oxford dictionary definition of during can extend to something at the end. This is not what we're here to discuss. The context of the rules precludes this definition, in this instance.
JakeSiren, if you don't wish to read the rest of the thread, perhaps try this thought experiment. Its a change of framework/perspective.
It seems as if you are asking the question "do I have permission to use this stratagem during a specific time?". This includes determining when "during" happens, if "the end of phase" is also "during", etc. A few of us in this thread think this question is not as important as the following question.
Perhaps ask "what am I allowed to do after my 'end of phase' actions?". A few of us here think that you shouldn't be allowed to do anything; including actions that state "during" the phase (regardless of definition). We proposed that once you simultaneously complete all your actions that specifically ask to be done at the end of the phase, your turn is over. Interweaving "during", or anything else, is against the rules, because if you do: your end of phase actions did not end the phase.
JakeSiren wrote: Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.
We aren't here to discuss dictionary definitions. Words like "at the end" and "during" are given new meaning given the context of the rules.
I'm going to answer your question above with something I posted back on page 4 that I think covers it and could've saved this topic another 4 pages of kinda pointless discussion;
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".
The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.
They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.
You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.
You play Auspex when the rules on the stratagem allow you to play it. If it says during the phase, you do it then. If it says at the end of the phase you do it then instead. If it doesn't give any criteria and is a response to something else you play it as stated.
Like I've said what feels like 100 times now in this thread; GW have differentiated between "during" and "at the end of" the phase by virtue of the reinforcement rules. As this differentiation exists any stratagems that can be played "during" cannot be played at the end and vice versa. It doesn't matter that the Oxford dictionary definition of during can extend to something at the end. This is not what we're here to discuss. The context of the rules precludes this definition, in this instance.
If my understanding and your understanding of "at the end" is different then it has different results. I think there have been a few posters that have demonstrated multiple differing understandings. So I disagree, it is useful.
Onto your response to my question. If I am to understand you correctly I am able to play any stratagem that occurs "at the end of the X phase" multiple times in matched play at the end of a single phase? Have I understood you correctly?
hollow one wrote: JakeSiren, if you don't wish to read the rest of the thread, perhaps try this thought experiment. Its a change of framework/perspective.
It seems as if you are asking the question "do I have permission to use this stratagem during a specific time?". This includes determining when "during" happens, if "the end of phase" is also "during", etc. A few of us in this thread think this question is not as important as the following question.
Perhaps ask "what am I allowed to do after my 'end of phase' actions?". A few of us here think that you shouldn't be allowed to do anything; including actions that state "during" the phase (regardless of definition). We proposed that once you simultaneously complete all your actions that specifically ask to be done at the end of the phase, your turn is over. Interweaving "during", or anything else, is against the rules, because if you do: your end of phase actions did not end the phase.
I have read the whole thread, but I don't presume to remember all 210+ posts or the arguments contained within.
You have summed up what I am asking. And your follow up is a good question though, and I can see the point you are making.
As an interesting counter thought experiment, some armies have stratagems that allow them to fight again at the end of the fight phase. This can allow new units into combat that haven't already fought. Are these units allowed to fight, or are they denied because it is the end phase even though they would otherwise be eligible to fight.
As others have said it really needs an faq, i think the problem is related to using words that are primarly used for describing time.
We need to know what makes things start and end in order to be sure when somthing is happening or considered during
Some questions that i am pondering
Does starting the next phase end the other one ?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of " end the phase?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of" fix a point in time where you cannot go back?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of " effectivly freeze time until all those actions have been complete.
^ if so what happens when there complete what action happens next
However they cannot be answer in s definate way so ..........
I agree that the simplist way is to read "at the end " as a trigger that only allows these pre defined actions to happen, and i think aspex works because it is adding onto the action rather than being a new one
I have read the whole thread, but I don't presume to remember all 210+ posts or the arguments contained within.
You have summed up what I am asking. And your follow up is a good question though, and I can see the point you are making.
As an interesting counter thought experiment, some armies have stratagems that allow them to fight again at the end of the fight phase. This can allow new units into combat that haven't already fought. Are these units allowed to fight, or are they denied because it is the end phase even though they would otherwise be eligible to fight.
Interesting counter. I would argue they are not allowed to fight, and it does strike me as odd that those stratagems are worded "end of", that seems intentional. In a different case, where the second activation of Berzerkers occurs "during" the fight phase, the opposing units would clearly be allowed. But I could be swayed with evidence, and it definitely poses a threat to breaking our interpretation of the rules.
I would also say they cannot fight as once the "end of" trigger has happened all of the eligible models have fought. And the berzerkers are performing a pre defined action rather than makimg a choice to fight like what happens in the fight phase
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you then have to ask the question does the phase end after all of the "end of" actions have been complete
ian wrote: End of can mean before or after the event and both is basic english .
I just double checked some dictionaries to make sure, but End is never used for after.
But, end does mean "end", and after the end would be after. Playing a stratagem in response to something that happened at the end of a phase would be after the phase.
Ok, let's assume that at the end refers to the instant end point in time for a phase etc. In general how do you play stratagems that say "at the end of your x phase"? You literally do not have time to declare that you are using them as the phase is already over by the time you have started speaking! Trying to declare any earlier is too early as it is not the end of the phase!
On a less facetious point: say I have a Nurgle Daemon Prince come in from reserves. My opponent uses Auspex to shoot at the Daemon Prince. Are you saying that I am unable to play "Revolting Regeneration" at the end of my movement phase in response to him losing wounds from the Auspex shooting? Even if there are other reserves coming in at the end of my movement after Auspex is resolved?
Or we can agree that "at the end of" is a phrase that is also used to refer to a period of time leading up to the end point? Ex: At the end of the match she scored a goal.
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?
Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.
The trouble is we dont know if everything shows up at the end similtaneously so in thoery you could use it after the first one even more so if it was 2 diffrent rules droping stuff in.
You could argue that once you have triggered "at the end of" means you cant go back to chose any units to move as that means its not the end anymore , however theres nothing to say that another stratagem cannot be used as part of the end as it does not mean your starting the movement phase again
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?
Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.
It only means that something has to be there first under one interpretation. You are simply asserting that the cannot occur simultaneously. The rules are silent on this issue. Nothing in the rules says that actions cannot occur simultaneously. In fact, it is acknowledged that some rules resolve simultaneously.
Part of the problem comes from the ambiguity of “end of the phase”. There are two completely valid interpretations.
To use an analogy, is the end of a pregnancy the birth of the child or is it Labor? The answer is, they are both th end of a pregnancy.
Many things can happen to affect the pregnancy during labor, but nothing can affect the pregnancy after the birth.
It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".
The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?
Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.
It only means that something has to be there first under one interpretation. You are simply asserting that the cannot occur simultaneously. The rules are silent on this issue. Nothing in the rules says that actions cannot occur simultaneously. In fact, it is acknowledged that some rules resolve simultaneously.
Part of the problem comes from the ambiguity of “end of the phase”. There are two completely valid interpretations.
To use an analogy, is the end of a pregnancy the birth of the child or is it Labor? The answer is, they are both th end of a pregnancy.
Many things can happen to affect the pregnancy during labor, but nothing can affect the pregnancy after the birth.
You are playing a stratagem on a unit that itsn't there before the end of the round. It must be there before you can play a stratagem on it. Therefore, it can't be simultaneous.. This is not one of those cases you assert where some rules resolve simultaneously. Sequencing will not apply in this case since it's not simultaneous, so you are trying to cast it after the unit arrived, which means you are trying to play the stratagem after the end of the round.
I've just finished watching the Netflix show "Dark" and it is significantly easier to understand than this interlocking web of arguments, counterarguments and changes in belief and perspective.
How did we get from discussing a rules question to a woman in labour?
I'm sure GW will FAQ the question so we can all get on with our lives. In my opinion (unsuprisingly) I think those of us who believe that the stratagem can't be played on reinforcements have a slightly stronger and more reasonable argument than the opposition, but I can see the arguments for both.
Shall we agree to wait on a FAQ for now ladies and gents?
If i deploy one unit such as raptor strike , then deploy another using assult drop ( not sure of name ) why do they happen at the same time ?
Its not unreasonable to say that i play the stratagem on the raptor strike as they are on the board and i still have diffrent rules to resovle
But again we stuck with not knowing
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes i agree ive spent to much time on this , i will laugh if it dosnt get faq though , i can imagine this going on for years
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?
For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?
As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?
How did we get from discussing a rules question to a woman in labour?
Hahaha, It was all that came to mind! The wife just gave birth to our first last month, so its pretty much consumed my mind for the past 11 or so months.
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?
For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?
As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?
I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.
No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.
Why are were assuming that they happen at the same time after the sequencing rule triggers.
The sequencing rules state when 2 rules are to be worked out at the same time. A player choses the order the rules are worked out in.
I dont see any stipulation on how to decided the order,
Wouldnt it be valid to follow the way the rest of the game is and pick a unit complete pick another and complete.
Doing it this way would provide a way to use a during stratagem after a unit drops in.
Dosnt the rule that the player puts them in an order mean they are now effectivly not being worked out at the same time
I think its important that the word resovled does not mean complete, my understanding is that it means worked out, ( i brought this up as i could find no reference to complete in any where, so thinking of it this way could be considered inaccurate and misleading )
which means the squencing rule is not refering to stratagems that are completed at the same time , rather its stratagems that are triggered to be worked out at the same time and provides us with a way to put them in an order.
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?
For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?
As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?
I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.
No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.
Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:
There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.
Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.
Yeah, no, you can't play a Stratagem on a unit *then* deploy its intended target. Not unless the Stratagem expressly allows you to target models off the board. That's quite apart from any sequencing shenanigans, it's just straight-up common sense.
JohnnyHell wrote: Yeah, no, you can't play a Stratagem on a unit *then* deploy its intended target. Not unless the Stratagem expressly allows you to target models off the board. That's quite apart from any sequencing shenanigans, it's just straight-up common sense.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.
Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.
I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.
Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.
I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.
Don\t see why not bearing. If strategem can be played only once during each phase and end of the phase is different from during the phase then logically it means strategems played at the end of phase can be multi used as you aren't multiusing during the phase.
GW. Got to love how they are incapable of writing anything so that it makes sense
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.
Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.
I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.
Don\t see why not bearing. If strategem can be played only once during each phase and end of the phase is different from during the phase then logically it means strategems played at the end of phase can be multi used as you aren't multiusing during the phase.
GW. Got to love how they are incapable of writing anything so that it makes sense
Exactly, tneva82 gets it. You either have the "end of the phase" as either during the phase or not during the phase. The Cloud of Flies says you may use it during the movement phase. The "Strategic Discipline" rule says a player cannot use the same stratagem during any single phase.
Either you say you can't use Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase as it's not during, and thus the restriction from Strategic Discipline is not in effect, or you say that you can use Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase as it is during, and thus the restriction from Strategic Discipline is in effect.
It's a question designed to get people to think about the rules and the implications of assuming a certain stance and applying it consistently throughout the rule set.
The question I posed to Doctortom was aimed at his assertion of an instantaneous end phase and being unable to play stratagems due to it, hence is why I went down the path of sequencing as to (what I consider) a viable way to play Cloud of Flies under those assumptions.
The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.
HoweverGW have made abundantly clear that "the end of" and "during" a phase in GAME TERMS are different things, one following the other.
You keep using a dictionary definition to try and prove your point which is not only wrong (since dictionary definitions are useless when discussing rules) but is also explicitly against the rules of this forum.
Let me make it as clear as I can;
'During' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase, before the end of phase.
'End of phase' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase that comes after the during.
You can't use Cloud of Flies on reinforcements because it explicitly states it must be used DURING the movement phase and if you are reinforcing you are in the END OF movement phase. During here does not refer to the dictionary definition as you seem to believe, it refers to a specific point in the phase as above.
The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.
HoweverGW have made abundantly clear that "the end of" and "during" a phase in GAME TERMS are different things, one following the other.
You keep using a dictionary definition to try and prove your point which is not only wrong (since dictionary definitions are useless when discussing rules) but is also explicitly against the rules of this forum.
Let me make it as clear as I can;
'During' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase, before the end of phase.
'End of phase' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase that comes after the during.
You can't use Cloud of Flies on reinforcements because it explicitly states it must be used DURING the movement phase and if you are reinforcing you are in the END OF movement phase. During here does not refer to the dictionary definition as you seem to believe, it refers to a specific point in the phase as above.
Does that help?
No, I'm actually really confused on your stance and how you interpret the rules since you previously said:
JakeSiren wrote: Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.
Have you changed your position in the last few posts?
No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.
The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.
My position has been the same throughout this entire thread.
Read any of my previous posts (including the one you quoted above) for illumination as to where my stance is.
I can't say it any clearer than above, which part exactly are you struggling to understand?
I'm struggling to understand what appears to be a logical inconsistency.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
What does everybody think about the notion that the sequencing rules make you resovle the actions one at a time so they are no longer happening together.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Never mind it needs an faq the words are too vague and mean to many diffrent things, i dont beleave there is any proof that anyone can bring that dosnt invole there own take on what the words mean
Been watching this thread. Feels like we're devolving into semantic discussions about whether or not things happen at the same time. Weighing in with a perspective that might help.
The end of the phase is not the same as leaving the phase. The game is divided into distinct phases, if something can occur during a phase that includes the end of the phase.
The Kharbydis Assault Klaw arrives at the end of the movement phase. It's passengers must immediately disembark. They can't move, because it's the end of the phase. But they do have to disembark - this action is required per the rules.
So you have an end of phase action followed by an action that must occur during the phase. This example illustrates that end of phase does not mean we've moved onto some new sub-phase, or that other actions (disembarking) cannot occur.
To further illustrate, in a game against Eldar, my opponent used some rule / Stratagem / whatever to shoot up my KAC when it was arriving on the board. The rules for disembarking from a destroyed vehicle were applied even though it was the end of the movement phase.
Interpreting end of movement phase as the conclusion of anything that can occur during the phase is very narrow and does not account for all the whatever else can happen during that phase, rules wise. If end of phase truly meant the last thing to happen during the phase, period, the KAC would not be able to be targeted, the passengers could not disembark, etc.
I think what end of movement phase really means is after all other movement is concluded. The rulebook spells out what can happen in the movement phase, once those steps are complete we're at the end of the phase. Anything that's not covered specifically in the mechanics for the phase - including the application of Stratagems - is allowed before moving onto the psychic phase.
Therefore, Cloud of Flies could certainly be used on something arriving at the end of the phase.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.
Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.
Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.
In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.
Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.
In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.
I move my units already on the board DURING the phase.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.
Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.
Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.
In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.
Where did I say it has to be used before the end of the phase? Please address what I actually say.
Even if you try to play the stratagem at the end of the phase, at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have the reinforcements on the board. At the time you declare you are going to play it, the valid units to receive CoF are the ones on the board at the time you declare. Sequencing doesn't change the fact that the unit wasn't there to be declared a valid target of the strategem at the time you declare that you are playing it.
So, going by your statement "the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one", you should agree with this, since only letting units on the board at the time of the declaration be potential targets of the stratagem is also the simplest interpretation as well as the correct interpretation. Otherwise you have the problem of somebody asking "who are you going to cast it on", and when you say "the arriving unit" you have the problem of declaring you are playing a stratagem on something that isn't there.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.
Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.
Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.
In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.
Where did I say it has to be used before the end of the phase? Please address what I actually say.
Even if you try to play the stratagem at the end of the phase, at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have the reinforcements on the board. At the time you declare you are going to play it, the valid units to receive CoF are the ones on the board at the time you declare. Sequencing doesn't change the fact that the unit wasn't there to be declared a valid target of the strategem at the time you declare that you are playing it.
So, going by your statement "the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one", you should agree with this, since only letting units on the board at the time of the declaration be potential targets of the stratagem is also the simplest interpretation as well as the correct interpretation. Otherwise you have the problem of somebody asking "who are you going to cast it on", and when you say "the arriving unit" you have the problem of declaring you are playing a stratagem on something that isn't there.
No, actually, I should not agree with that and believe you missed the point entirely.
We are talking about the application of a Stratagem. There are no rules about when Stratagems are applied except within the Stratagem itself.
Stratagems are different from other mechanics in the game. When Codex Death Guard came out, there was a big discussion about whether or not a CSM Stratagem could be applied to an allied Death Guard force. The Stratagem was Chaos Familiar, the goal was to use it on Mortarion to let him cast Warp Time on himself.
If you read the Stratagem, it says it can be applied to to any Heretic Astartes Psyker. That's a very simple qualification. People argued tooth and nail that you could not do it. Then the FAQ came out confirming that you can, reinforcing the point that Stratagems define their own restrictions.
That was the simplest interpretation.
The qualification for when the Cloud of Flies Stratagem can be applied is the Movement phase. Phases are spelled out in the BRB, there is nothing ambiguous about how phases work.
The BRB spells out rules for how models can move. Nothing else. As long as the player has not moved onto the psychic phase, you are in the movement phase.
Show me a rule that says a Stratagem can only be applied before the 'end of the movement phase' or stop pretending these imaginary rules and restrictions apply anywhere but your own house rules. That's not how anything else in 8th edition works.
Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.
In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.
I move my units already on the board DURING the phase.
I reinforce AT THE END OF the phase.
I cannot move units after reinforcing.
You cannot play Cloud of Flies after reinforcing.
What does being able to move have to do with being able to apply a Stratagem? Show me anything from the BRB that says that.
Stratagems spell out the conditions under which they can be used. Period.
Is the player in the psychic, shooting, charge, fight, or morale phase? Then Cloud of Flies can't be applied.
Is there some rule that forces players to immediately move into the psychic phase after 'end of movement phase' actions are complete? No such rule exists, there are other mechanics that can come into play.
Okay, you read the stratagem ti tells you what it is applicable to. I look at what's on the board when you're declaring you're using it, and ones that meet the criteria are valid targets. Reinforcements aren't on at the time, so they aren't valid targets.
Reinforcements arreive at the end of the phase. They have to have arrived before you can affect them, so declaring that you are going to play a stratagem on them means you have to be declaring after they have arrived, which means you are trying to declare after the end of the phase, not during. That's a very simple concept - you can't declare you're playing stratagems on things that aren't there when the stratategem doesn't say you can play it on something that isn't there.
doctortom wrote: Okay, you read the stratagem ti tells you what it is applicable to. I look at what's on the board when you're declaring you're using it, and ones that meet the criteria are valid targets. Reinforcements aren't on at the time, so they aren't valid targets.
Reinforcements arreive at the end of the phase. They have to have arrived before you can affect them, so declaring that you are going to play a stratagem on them means you have to be declaring after they have arrived, which means you are trying to declare after the end of the phase, not during. That's a very simple concept - you can't declare you're playing stratagems on things that aren't there when the stratategem doesn't say you can play it on something that isn't there.
I've already demonstrated there are many things that happen during the normal course of the game after 'end of the movement phase' occurs, such as disembarking and Eldar shooting. The fact reinforcements are arriving does not automatically move the player into the psychic phase.
The Stratagem says it can be applied during the Movement phase. Period.
Show me something in the BRB that says players are automatically moved into the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Otherwise you are just making stuff up.
So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?
when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.
Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.
doctortom wrote: So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?
when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.
Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.
I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.
Your example is silly. The models are on the board. The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.
I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.
But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"
This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase. They've used their Movement getting to where they are, and the book is saying they are now on the battlefield.
So your example has nothing to do with the actual rules, that's just the way you choose to describe what happens.
Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.
GW simply needs to put out a Designer Note showing the phase model in detail. I'd expect it to look kinda like this, and that's currently HIWPI:
Movement Phase
- Start of Phase ("at the beginning")
- The Actual Phase ("during")
- End of Phase ("at the end")
End and Start are part of the Movement Phase, but anything that says "during" can only be used between Start and End of Phase. Stuff that says "at the end of the phase" cannot be used earlier than that, Stuff that says "at the beginning of the phase" cannot be used after that.
Basically you'd need specific permission to do something at the End or Beginning instead of During of the Phase. The stratagems we have do exactly that if they're meant to be used at that time, otherwise they simply state "during".
Again: HIWPI.
doctortom wrote: So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?
when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.
Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.
I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.
Your example is silly. The models are on the board.
Not when you declare. You declare, I ask who you're playing it on, you say a unit of reinforcements. They aren't on the board yet since you're still declaring, nothing's been resolved. Therefore, you are trying to play the stratagem before they are on the board to be a valid target of the stratagem. I would say that claiming you can declare you're playing a stratagem on something not on the board, a stratagem not set up to affect something not on the board (e.g no specific permission to target something off the board or played before there are units on a board, like getting an extra relic), is what is silly, not to mention going against the rules of not being able to affect things off the board. They're off the board at the time you are declaring; so that means you can't choose them as a target at the time you declare you're playing the stratagem. Their actions would have to be fully resolved before you declare (not resolve, but declare), which means it's after the end of the movement phase.
techsoldaten wrote: The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.
Again, you're being obtuse on this. As I have stated before, you are perfectly able to use the stratagem. The question is who you can play the stratagem on. That would be units on the board at the time you say you are playing the stratagem, as per RAW.
techsoldaten wrote: I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.
Yes, other actions can occur after the end of the movement phase. They have to say they can be done there, though, or be specifically a response to something happening (like Auspex triggering when reinforcements arrive). You don't have the wording or the trigger, and reinforcements aren't a valid target when you declare you are playing the unit.
techsoldaten wrote: But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"
This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase.
Actually it says it happens (typically) at the END of the movement phase, not during the movement phase.
techsoldaten wrote: They've used their Movement getting to where they are, and the book is saying they re now on the battlefield.
ENTIRE movement phase.
techsoldaten wrote: Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.
There isn't any rule that says you can play something after a phase is over when it says you play it during a phase. You don't have the reinforcements as a valid target when you declare you are going to play it. They're not on the board until after they arrive. Once they've arrived, you are at the end of the turn; if you declare you're playing it at the end they haven't arrived when you declare.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.
I understand what you are saying, however I actually wrote an entire post directed at you rather then just this small snippet which addresses how. I have reposted it below so that you can respond to the arguments within.
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?
For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?
As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?
I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.
No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.
Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:
There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.
Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.
GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.
According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.
Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.
Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?
End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.
You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.
I understand what you are saying, however I actually wrote an entire post directed at you rather then just this small snippet which addresses how. I have reposted it below so that you can respond to the arguments within.
On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.
Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.
Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.
The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?
For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?
As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?
I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.
No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.
Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:
There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.
Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.
I saw it, I rejected the argument. Auspex is played in response to reinforcements arriveing; it's a specified trigger that happens after reinforcements arrive (unlike other stratagems). If I take your argument about getting to declare and lump together all end of phase things, whether they're on the board or not, and sequence them out, then Auspex would also happen end of phase and you could sequence it so that you can choose to have the unit with Auspex fire before your reinforcements actually arrive, and not get to actually shoot because there's nothing in range because they're not on the board despite it supposedly being simultaneous. As An Actual Englishman points out (as did I earlier in the thread), if you can play CoF after reinforcing, you can also move another unit after reinforcing by saying you're moving the unit at the end of the phase and then use sequencing to move it after reinforcements. Both of these should point out that your argument of the vast extended period of time for "end of phase" (which turns out to be almost the same vast expanse of time that is "during the phase" except that you're trying to slop everything together at the end) doesn't work. Having the valid target when you initially declare is just as important as having the same target when you resolve. They haven't arrived yet until the end of the phase, so you can't declare you're targeting them until after they have arrived. At that point it's too late to jump on board the sequencing boat, since you've just been doing it for the reinforcements and the end of phase boat has already set sail. You don't get to go "oh, and another thing to add in here" after you've started resolving end of phase actions. When you start with end of phase actions you look at what you have on the board - those are your valid targets. You have to have the valid target then as well as when you resolve.
doctortom wrote: So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?
when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.
Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.
I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.
Your example is silly. The models are on the board.
Not when you declare. You declare, I ask who you're playing it on, you say a unit of reinforcements. They aren't on the board yet since you're still declaring, nothing's been resolved. Therefore, you are trying to play the stratagem before they are on the board to be a valid target of the stratagem. I would say that claiming you can declare you're playing a stratagem on something not on the board, a stratagem not set up to affect something not on the board (e.g no specific permission to target something off the board or played before there are units on a board, like getting an extra relic), is what is silly, not to mention going against the rules of not being able to affect things off the board. They're off the board at the time you are declaring; so that means you can't choose them as a target at the time you declare you're playing the stratagem. Their actions would have to be fully resolved before you declare (not resolve, but declare), which means it's after the end of the movement phase.
The BRB says the unit is on the battlefield. I cited the rule in my last post.
You have offered no rules to contract that, just this notion that nothing happens in the movement phase after reinforcements arrive. I've offered examples of things that happen after reinforcements arrive.
This is supposed to be where we clarify rules, not invent them. Cite something from the BRB to support your interpretation.
techsoldaten wrote: The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.
Again, you're being obtuse on this. As I have stated before, you are perfectly able to use the stratagem. The question is who you can play the stratagem on. That would be units on the board at the time you say you are playing the stratagem, as per RAW.
Read the rules about arriving from reinforcements in the movement phase. The unit is on the table.
Let's say 'end of the Movement phase' worked the way you describe. How could any other action happen in the phase after reinforcements? For example, disembarking from a transport.
You are taking the most narrow interpretation of a phrase and assigning it a meaning equivalent to a turn phase. That's ludicrous.
techsoldaten wrote: I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.
Yes, other actions can occur after the end of the movement phase. They have to say they can be done there, though, or be specifically a response to something happening (like Auspex triggering when reinforcements arrive). You don't have the wording or the trigger, and reinforcements aren't a valid target when you declare you are playing the unit.
If other actions happen after reinforcements arrive, which only happens at the 'end of the Movement phase,' then 'end of the Movement phase' is not a terminal point after which the psychic phase begins.
It means when the actions described in the BRB are complete. It allows for other actions to occur during the Movement phase before moving on in the turn cycle described in the BRB.
Reinforcements have arrived on the table, per the BRB. There is no reason a Stratagem cannot be applied.
If this is wrong, cite something in the BRB that says so. Otherwise you are just making up rules.
techsoldaten wrote: But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"
This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase.
Actually it says it happens (typically) at the END of the movement phase, not during the movement phase.
There is no distinction. The only distinction between phases are the ones spelled out in the BRB.
For the purposes of applying the Stratagem, the player either IS or IS NOT in the movement phase.
techsoldaten wrote: Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.
There isn't any rule that says you can play something after a phase is over when it says you play it during a phase. You don't have the reinforcements as a valid target when you declare you are going to play it. They're not on the board until after they arrive. Once they've arrived, you are at the end of the turn; if you declare you're playing it at the end they haven't arrived when you declare.
No one is playing anything.
Stratagems spell out their own restrictions. The only restriction for Cloud of Flies is during the movement phase. You are drawing a distinction that does not exist in the phase cycle for the game, it's just a phrase used to reference the order in which events happen within the phase.
The player is still in the movement phase after reserves arrive. It could not be any more clear than that.
Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psychic phase.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psyhic phase.
The BRB says no such thing.
People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psyhic phase.
The BRB says no such thing.
People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Exactly what I'm thinking. If it's still the movement phase, then its during the movement phase. Besides this idea that models who came from reserves cannot move because it's the end of the movement phase is unsupported. They cannot move after arriving because the BRB specifically says they cannot move. They say that they used up their movement phase joining the battle, but say nothing whatsoever that nothing else can happen during the end of the movement phase.
I saw it, I rejected the argument. Auspex is played in response to reinforcements arriveing; it's a specified trigger that happens after reinforcements arrive (unlike other stratagems). If I take your argument about getting to declare and lump together all end of phase things, whether they're on the board or not, and sequence them out, then Auspex would also happen end of phase and you could sequence it so that you can choose to have the unit with Auspex fire before your reinforcements actually arrive, and not get to actually shoot because there's nothing in range because they're not on the board despite it supposedly being simultaneous. As An Actual Englishman points out (as did I earlier in the thread), if you can play CoF after reinforcing, you can also move another unit after reinforcing by saying you're moving the unit at the end of the phase and then use sequencing to move it after reinforcements. Both of these should point out that your argument of the vast extended period of time for "end of phase" (which turns out to be almost the same vast expanse of time that is "during the phase" except that you're trying to slop everything together at the end) doesn't work. Having the valid target when you initially declare is just as important as having the same target when you resolve. They haven't arrived yet until the end of the phase, so you can't declare you're targeting them until after they have arrived. At that point it's too late to jump on board the sequencing boat, since you've just been doing it for the reinforcements and the end of phase boat has already set sail. You don't get to go "oh, and another thing to add in here" after you've started resolving end of phase actions. When you start with end of phase actions you look at what you have on the board - those are your valid targets. You have to have the valid target then as well as when you resolve.
Thank you for responding.
Regarding Auspex it clearly says that you play it in response to an enemy arriving from reserves, so your concern about using sequencing to invalidate it is unfounded.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
The lumping of actions all together is due to what you indicated - that the end of phase is instantaneous. If that's not your understanding then let me know as I may have misunderstood you.
Regarding your argument about moving units during the end phase, this all comes down to when you consider the end phase to start. If you consider it to commence only after all of the core movement phase actions have been completed then you would be unable to move during the end of phase.
I want to look at an example of resolving an end of movement phase based on the assumptions you put forwards: The assumption of an instantaneous end phase and that the end of phase is considered during.
Let's say you have 2 strategems to play A and B (both target a unit), and 2 reinforcements to come in X and Y. Let's also assume you have unit Z already on the table.
You would declare "At the end of the movement phase I will be bringing on reserves X and Y, and using Stratagem A and B"
You don't need to declare who is being targeted with Stratagem A or B until you start to resolve them.
So with sequencing you decided you want to bring on unit X first. You then target unit Z with Stratagem A.
You then bring on unit Y. And finally resolve Stratagem B by targeting unit X.
I hope that example illuminates how you might play CoF on reserves under those assumptions.
techsoldaten wrote: People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.
Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)
According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.
Cloud of flies clearly states it happens "during" the movement phase. This is one of the criteria that determine whether it can be played legally. If you are reinforcing you have without question moved on to the "end of the phase" as we all know reinforcements happen during this time. Stratagems and special rules that specifically state they also happen at the end of the movement phase can now occur. Stratagems and special rules that happen in response to something happening in the end of the phase can now occur. Neither of these is true for CoF.
Now from what I can tell your entire argument seems to rest on the misguided and frankly bizarre belief that for some unknown, magical reason "stratagems don't follow the same rules as everything else in terms of their requirements for play". Despite having zero evidence to back this up. Despite an abundance of evidence to support the exact opposite of this interpretation.
Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.
Sure, that is the first step to resolving the stratagem. However as I said (bolded), you only do that once you start resolving its rules. If there are simultaneous actions the active player decides the order of resolving those rules using sequencing.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating resolving the stratagem beyond that singular point in game time. I'm unsure if you misread or are deliberately straw manning, but I would appreciate if you responded to what I wrote rather then what you think I wrote.
For your reference on sequencing (bolded the pertinent parts):
BRB wrote:While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
*Edit*
As an example of what I'm talking about. Say you wish to resolve both Grandfather's Blessings (Death Guard) and Revolting Regeneration (Chaos Daemons) (both target a unit at the end of the movement phase). You would declare that you are using both at the end of the movement phase. At this point you haven't declared which unit is being targeted by each stratagem. You then use sequencing to say which one you will resolve first. In this case we will resolve Revolting Regeneration first. We go through and resolve that stratagems rules (which include selecting a target). We then resolve the final stratagem Grandfather's Blessings (which also involves selecting a target).
This is of course operating under the assumptions that Doctortom had put forwards.
Care to elaborate Johnny? How would you play multiple stratagems at the end of the phase under the assumptions that Doctortom put forwards? Specifically the assumption that the end of the phase is an instant point in time.
techsoldaten wrote: People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.
Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)
I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
techsoldaten wrote: People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.
Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)
According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.
Cloud of flies clearly states it happens "during" the movement phase. This is one of the criteria that determine whether it can be played legally. If you are reinforcing you have without question moved on to the "end of the phase" as we all know reinforcements happen during this time. Stratagems and special rules that specifically state they also happen at the end of the movement phase can now occur. Stratagems and special rules that happen in response to something happening in the end of the phase can now occur. Neither of these is true for CoF.
Now from what I can tell your entire argument seems to rest on the misguided and frankly bizarre belief that for some unknown, magical reason "stratagems don't follow the same rules as everything else in terms of their requirements for play". Despite having zero evidence to back this up. Despite an abundance of evidence to support the exact opposite of this interpretation.
Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.
Your argument hinges pretty heavily on the parts of the movement phase being clearly listed out. Can you please tell me where to find this in the rulebook? Page numbers would help a lot here. As far as I can tell there is no listed difference between parts of the movement phase.
According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.
BRB citation please. Where in the rules does it state that the end is distinct from during. If something happens at the end of a book is it not during the events of the book? How about a movie? End has more than a singular meaning. Where in the rules is it specified that your version of end is correct since you claim that it's there?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.
Also false, the reason you cannot move after coming in from reserves is because the rules specifically say you cannot according to the BRBpg. 177. I have cited my rules, please cite yours.
You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
edit: I might cut you off at the knees with the sentence that says something like "move each unit until you're done moving". You might say, this means you have to move everything before you do anything else, hence ending your movement. But there will be countless examples of where you're allowed to interweave actions during movement, what's to say "reinforcements" isn't just one of those actions? Who cares if it's labelled "at the end".
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
I think he was addressing the argument of reinforcements being able to move. As of such:
Reinforcements wrote:Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive
To be honest, this is the least productive part of the discussion - there is insufficient evidence either way to say if 'at the end of the movement phase' is also 'during the movement phase'. Only GW can answer this.
Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
I would like to distinguish between the freedom to act (unrestricted), and responding to something (conditional).
Sometimes you can only do act in response to a trigger, Auspex Scan only works when its conditions are met, and must occur at the time they are met. This is a conditional action.
Other times you can act freely, Cloud of Flies allows you to choose when to act within the movement phase. This is an unrestricted action (I'm making up these words).
I think if there are conditional effects occurring during the "end of phase" then we are not breaking the "end of phase"-being-a-distinct-area idea, because conditional effects only check if their conditions are met, they do not check the game state. Unrestricted effects must consider the game state before acting, Cloud of Flies has to ask the question "what phase are we in?" before it occurs, Auspex Scan only asks "did they drop in near me?". I would argue that unrestricted actions can not occur after reinforcements, as when you complete reinforcements and ask the question "what phase are we in?" you'll realize you've ended the movement phase and are in the psychic phase. I would argue that if you bring up a conditional example that can occur after reinforcements, then you are bringing up something that is intended to work outside of the game state, and only work if its conditions are met.
So exploring conditional examples (like Auspex Scan, or Kharbydis Assault Klaw causing immediate disembarking) as exceptions that deny the idea of the "end of phase" being distinct, I think, isn't valid. And I feel that is why people are discussing movement, because that is an unrestricted action that should be allowed to occur after reinforcements if you also argue that Cloud of Flies (unrestricted) to occur after reinforcements.
I'm sure there are examples of things that require both "like during X phase, when Y dies, do Z". So don't bother with that line.
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
Bro we are talking about moving other units after you reinforce. For example, deep strike X unit, then move Y unit (which hasn't moved yet).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
Your version of implications allows me to move Y unit after I deep strike X unit. Because I'm still technically in the movement phase.
techsoldaten wrote: I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
OK then, I'll just get on to moving my other units after reinforcing.
Can't wait for the FAQ on this.
DominayTrix wrote: Your argument hinges pretty heavily on the parts of the movement phase being clearly listed out. Can you please tell me where to find this in the rulebook? Page numbers would help a lot here. As far as I can tell there is no listed difference between parts of the movement phase.
Reinforcements must be done "at the end of the phase", after all units have been moved. I can't be bothered to cite the rulebook, there is no uncertainty in my mind on the rules.
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
Your version of implications allows me to move Y unit after I deep strike X unit. Because I'm still technically in the movement phase.
That's actually a matter of deciding when the "end of the phase" begins. I have previously stated that my personal reading is that it occurs once you have completed the main actions of the phase. So for the movement phase, resolving all actions contained under the movement header in the BRB. But that is also not strongly supported by the rules, it's just the one that breaks the least stuff IMO.
Regardless of what either of us think, there are implications in the rules if you consider it one way or the other and apply it consistently.
Zarroc1733 wrote: BRB citation please. Where in the rules does it state that the end is distinct from during. If something happens at the end of a book is it not during the events of the book? How about a movie? End has more than a singular meaning. Where in the rules is it specified that your version of end is correct since you claim that it's there?
Also false, the reason you cannot move after coming in from reserves is because the rules specifically say you cannot according to the BRBpg. 177. I have cited my rules, please cite yours.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
The rules you have cited are useless for this discussion and add absolutely nothing to it.
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set: If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
What will Englishman do this time? How will he prevail?!
Find out on.... YOU MADE DA CALL... LINGUISTIC TENNIS EDITION
Lol I'm too tired for this.
Someone else needs to take the baton. There's only so long I can play this game.
I've responded with my thoughts. People either ignore them and discuss something else entirely, discuss dictionary definitions or ask for a page reference and rule quotation despite providing no evidence from the rulebook of their own.
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
techsoldaten wrote: I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
OK then, I'll just get on to moving my other units after reinforcing.
Can't wait for the FAQ on this.
Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
Sorry my point was misconstrued. I didn't mean those were the only arguments. I meant that is the entire crux of the debate. Is the end of the movement phase during the movement phase? I will be happy to agree with you if you can cite the rules that state the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase. In my BRB all I see is Movement Psychic Shooting Charge Fight Morale. I do not see a Movement, End of Movement, Psychic, End of Psychic, Shooting, End of Shooting, Charge, End of Charge, Fight, End of Fight, Morale, End of Morale. Where does it say the end is not during the phase?
That being said I do believe the INTENT is that the stratagem should be used before reinforcements. However as it is the RAW aren't clear. Therefor it needs an faq. I'll honestly be pleased with either way it's ruled but I do expect it will be ruled that it can't be used after reinforcements.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
What of stratagems that specify their usage at the end of the phase? How do you resolve that if you've already brought in reinforcements?
Zarroc1733 wrote: Sorry my point was misconstrued. I didn't mean those were the only arguments. I meant that is the entire crux of the debate. Is the end of the movement phase during the movement phase? I will be happy to agree with you if you can cite the rules that state the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase. In my BRB all I see is Movement Psychic Shooting Charge Fight Morale. I do not see a Movement, End of Movement, Psychic, End of Psychic, Shooting, End of Shooting, Charge, End of Charge, Fight, End of Fight, Morale, End of Morale. Where does it say the end is not during the phase?
That being said I do believe the INTENT is that the stratagem should be used before reinforcements. However as it is the RAW aren't clear. Therefor it needs an faq. I'll honestly be pleased with either way it's ruled but I do expect it will be ruled that it can't be used after reinforcements.
I think RAW and RAI the intent is for the Stratagem to be used any time during the movement phase.
'End of the Movement phase' really only refers to completion of the sequence of actions spelled out in the BRB.
Saying this for the following reasons:
1) Plenty of things that happen once reinforcements arrive. Disembarking, for example, commonly happens when a transport arrives from reserves. Some armies can shoot at things arriving from reserve.
2) When in doubt, go with the simplest interpretation of the Stratagem. Stratagems spell out their own restrictions and (typically) the simplest interpretation applies. Chaos Familiar from the CSM Codex says it can be applied to any Heretic Astartes Psyker. The FAQ says that includes Death Guard, despite people crying foul over language in other parts of the book. The Stratagem prevails!
3) Stratagems can be used and applied to a target at separate times in a phase. Reinforcements may arrive at the end of the phase, but there's nothing to prevent someone from using the Stratagem before they get there - and applying it once they are there.
4) Following up on point 1 - interpreting the phrase 'end of the Movement phase' to mean the Movement phase has reached a terminal point - means the player is in the psychic phase immediately after reinforcements arrive. I'm not aware of any rules that force a player to move into a new phase of the game, in this or any other edition. This seems very different from what GW has done in the past.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
JakeSiren wrote: Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
Jake, the reason I've repeatedly ignored your question is because it only highlights your lack of understanding of what I have been writing and my interpretation of the rules. I asked you clearly what exactly you were confused about and your response was to post your question again, rather than explain why you were confused. You're confused because you aren't taking in what I'm writing.
To answer your question - yes the restrictions listed within strategic discipline apply in the End of Phase. This has no bearing on the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
And your answer is yes, when the Stratagem is being resolved it will be resolved against a valid target. But you are also inventing rules here. The only thing that matters is "is this legal at the time of resolution?".
You seem to be under the assumption that when you declare a stratagem that you must physically resolve it immediately before doing anything else. Under your assertion of an instantaneous end phase, how do you play any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem and bring on reserves? If you resolve the Stratagem immediately, then declare that reserves are coming on, it's too late. Likewise if you declare reserves are coming on, resolve them, then try to use a "at the end" stratagem, it's too late.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
I have already addressed this argument before. It all comes down to when "the end of the movement phase" is allowed to trigger. The (IMO) reasonable definition is once all of your movement actions have been completed.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
JakeSiren wrote: Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
Jake, the reason I've repeatedly ignored your question is because it only highlights your lack of understanding of what I have been writing and my interpretation of the rules. I asked you clearly what exactly you were confused about and your response was to post your question again, rather than explain why you were confused. You're confused because you aren't taking in what I'm writing.
To answer your question - yes the restrictions listed within strategic discipline apply in the End of Phase. This has no bearing on the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Strategic discipline says that its restrictions apply during each phase. CoF says that it is used during the movement phase. Notice the same use of during for both of these rules?
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
What of stratagems that specify their usage at the end of the phase? How do you resolve that if you've already brought in reinforcements?
Auspex - it's an exception because it specifies it's in response to Reinforcements arriving, which happens (usually) at the end of movement.
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
Just to be clear, it doesn't anywhere in the rulebook say the bolded part of your statement above. You are making assumptions because the specific reinforcement rules state, generally "At the end of your movement phase...."
Regardless.
So we agree that we move DURING the movement phase. We cannot move AT THE END of the movement phase because the rules suggest that it [the end] follows the res of the [during] movement phase.
When does CoF say it must be played in the movement phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Strategic discipline says that its restrictions apply during each phase. CoF says that it is used during the movement phase. Notice the same use of during for both of these rules?
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
When do I move my models? Is it during a phase?
Oh so I can reinforce then move other models? Because that's still during the phase right? According to your definition.
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
E - perhaps you should quote the entire Strategic Discipline rule? It's also pretty poor debating etiquette to effectively trick someone by repeatedly asking the same inane question to prove a weak and moot point. The reason for the 10 page debate is because there are inconsistencies. Note my example above.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.
What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
doctortom wrote: What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
It's weird what people forget to include when citing rules during a discussion like this.
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
Just to be clear, it doesn't anywhere in the rulebook say the bolded part of your statement above. You are making assumptions because the specific reinforcement rules state, generally "At the end of your movement phase...."
Regardless.
So we agree that we move DURING the movement phase. We cannot move AT THE END of the movement phase because the rules suggest that it [the end] follows the res of the [during] movement phase.
When does CoF say it must be played in the movement phase?
Uh.... technically you are correct, the BRB does not include that sentence. That is an original statement by techsoldaten.
But the BRB does spell out the Movement phase in the exact sequence that I described. And that is everything the rules have to say about the Movement phase - complete those actions.
Those are the rules, there's nothing ambiguous about them. Once they are complete, the player is at the end of the Movement phase. Reinforcements can arrive, and a lot of other things can happen, as I have been spelling out throughout this thread.
There is NOTHING in the BRB or any of the rules for units to suggest any other interpretation. It says what happens in the phase, and then there is some stuff that happens afterwards before you move onto the Psychic phase.
So, cite something from the BRB that proves something else or continue proving how wrong a person can be.
But this is stupid, you're arguing I'm trying to trick people by summarizing the rules. Anyone can read page 177 and see exactly how they work.
R. Can I shoot units who are moving on the battlefield after deployment but before the game begins with a stratagem?
Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.
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