Note: this thread is about the humorous disconnect between logic and some rules in the game. Most of us are well aware that some of these rules are unrealistic to facilitate playing a tabletop game, and so these are not necessarily gripes about the game itself, simply levity.
-The primarch of the ultramarines cannot use the ultramarines chapter tactic.
-All marines immediately forget their chapter's special training when driving a tank or plane.
-Oh captain my captain! Battlefield leaders are very inspiring, and their presence is enough to make you shoot and fight better, as if the prospect of not dying wasn't reason enough to bring your A-game. They even buy into their own hype and inspire themselves!
-As soon as your glorious inspiring leader enters a vehicle or building, he suddenly ceases being at all inspiring, even to those in the building next to him and also himself! Perhaps it's really just the cape billowing in the wind that makes him so cool.
-An entire company of soldiers will immediately forget their special training unique to their organization if a single friendly element from a different military branch (or even a different regiment!) happened to come to the battle with them. Maybe they suffer from performance anxiety in front of allies?
-Space marine biology apparently differs enough between chapters that an apothecary from one chapter is of no help to another chapter.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
[[[edit: lots of people are super confused on this one. This is referring to actual SWARM units that represent a bunch of small enemies on a single base with several wounds.]]]
-Chapter masters, daemon primarchs, and hive tyrants among others are perfectly fine with letting a lowly scout, cultist, or even a spore mine act as the army leader.
-For every squad flying or teleporting into battle, there must be one on the ground for some reason. Also those guys waiting to jump in may be executed if they decide to try showing up late.
-It is no easier to hit a Titan than it is to hit a gretchin hiding in bushes.
-A vehicle explosion is a mere inconvenience to one ten-men squad nearby, but terrifying beyond all measure to ten one-man squads.
-Said vehicle explosion, even from a small transport vehicle, is an extremely powerful blast, completely bypassing the best armor and force fields any race in the galaxy has produced. One wonders why we bother with lascannons and bright lances when we could just weaponize whatever it is in that humble rhino that is exploding.
-Somehow, just by having more standard troops in the battle, several of your elite units can use their special talents more often. If enough men were present, a single squad from most armies could fight twice in melee every turn for the entire game.
-Squads take turns showing up one at a time to the battle, but arriving early just lets the enemy know where they should set up in relation to you. Being punctual has its downsides!
-Whether teleporting, drop podding, or flying into battle, it is very dangerous to land too close to an enemy on an open field, but not dangerous at all to show up in broken down ruins. If the enemy is high up enough from the ground, you could fly in and land under them.
-A single squad that is under the threat of being charged by multiple enemies can fire several times faster than normal, which begs the question of why they don't bother attempting those extra free shots all the time?
-You can sneak up on an enemy and charge it from behind a wall to deny them the chance to overwatch, unless the enemy can fire indirect barrages, in which case he psychically knows that you have just decided to charge from behind that wall and has the time required to launch a preemptive barrage on your position. Again only heaven knows why he waits until the threat of imminent close combat to display this supernatural ability.
-When a soldier decides to flee the field, he is absolutely unstoppable and vanishes in a puff of smoke, looney-toons style.
-Telling one squad to do something special makes similar squads temporarily unable to do the same thing. Psykers have a similar problem. Do they ever have arguments mid battle about who needs a certain power most?
-Transport space in vehicles does not get along well with logic. Ten marines can cram inside a rhino, but a single primaris marine can't crouch down to get inside. This is especially notable in stormravens, which can carry terminators and jump pack-equipped troops in the troop-bay, but still refuse to let any primaris on board. Maybe it's due to in-chapter discrimination?
-If your character sees an enemy unit charge anywhere on the battlefield and is close by an enemy unit, (even a different one that didn't charge,) he may suddenly feel very proactive and engage them in combat!
-Many tanks and monsters perform worse as they lose wounds, but some of them with the right amount of starting wounds fight perfectly fine until dead.
-Whether or not a non-infantry unit benefits from being in cover against indirect fire is determined by how much of the unit can be seen by the one firing...even though that unit doesn't need line of sight in the first place! \o.o/
-As long as a terrain is classified as a ruin, infantry can literally become insubstantial and ghost through the walls and floors.
-It is extremely difficult to hit something while driving a tank. And even when run over by a land raider, the slightest amount of armor can help you live through it.
-Said tank can be walled in by small creatures. Despite the fact that it keeps attempting to run them over and they keep dodging, they never actually move out of the way and let it by.
-similar to vehicle explosions, the best armor and force fields in the universe offer no protection against psychic powers. Being physically super-tough, however, does.
- When the sun goes down, plasma weapons are more likely to explode
- Despite the fact the towering blue marine commander stands twice as tall as everybody around him, you're not allowed to shoot him unless he decides to stand in front of his troops
- When you run, one out of six times you'll only move about 1.5 meters further than if you walked.
- Infantry troops can carry an infinite number of missiles for their missile launchers, but guard vehicles only every supply their vehicles with one hunter-killer missile - ever.
-if your enemy charges from out of range, whoops can't shoot, rather then wait for them to enter range and then shoot. Looking at you flamer weapons.
-techpriests can't fix rhinos, despite being able to build them. Same thing with techmarines trying to repair other chapter's vehicles, or sister's tanks.
-losing combat is so horrible that the side that lost will have 1d6 squad members commit suicide.
--commissars hate their troops so much, that they always shoot them.
-tanks are incapable of moving as a unit
-tank commanders are so mentally healthy they can't talk to themselves.
--las pistols, grot blasters, and human fists can kill tanks
-You can run and fire a microwave gun, but not a pistol.
-flamers are great at shooting down aircraft.
-Just because I know a psychic power, means that you never can.
-Smite gets harder if we both do it.
-Stormtroopers are less elite then IG veterans and ogryn.
-Not every fighter/bomber knows how to do a strafing run.
-Everyone has to take turns if they want to use a grenade.
-Lasguns fire faster if you shout at them.
-Women fire faster if they pray first.
-chainswords swing faster then other swords.
-Only Tau care about their friends in other squads and will overwatch to help them.
-Tanks are incapable of reliably running people over, even when those people are getting in the way on purpose. (poor ws)
-every tank is both amphibious, and capable of driving through trees.
-Only rhino crews are trained to fix their own vehicles.
-catachans shoot best because they're stonk.
-catachan abs can deflect bolter fire 1/3rd of the time.
-each regiment has it's own language and is incapable of learning others. Why else would infantry ignore an officer, if only because of regimental differences?
- Drones are programmed to run, and do so faster then fire warriors. Oddly, these same drones are trained to work as meat shields for Tau officers and veterans. Seems counter productive.
- An apothecary can harvest geneseed thrice from a dead marine, and then suddenly put him back together good as new. However, he won’t dare touch the critically wounded comrade if a different battle brother has a nose bleed.
-A helicopter holding station above the battlefield can be punched by infantrymen, because apparently Grots can jump really, really high.
-Stormravens are capable of flight.
-Blood Angels retain their psychic powers when installed in Dreadnaughts, yet the Thousand Sons do not.
-Infantry to support Titans against smaller threats are a thing of the distant past and aren't important in the 41st Milennium. Our Titans can run around unsupported as much as they like now.
-Knight Houses not sworn to the Adeptus Mechanicus still have dozens of Cerastus Knights in working order, but no Mechancium Knight Houses have any at all.
-It takes a house-sized tank with a fourteen-meter spinal laser to one-shot kill a Dreadnaught. Nothing smaller than that will do the job in less than two hits.
-Ultramarine infantry with JP is punished when they fall back from combat by their own chapter tactic
-The budget for intercessor primaris marines was gone when it came to special or heavy weapons. No meltas, no flamers, no lascannons, no grav guns, no rocket launchers. Their hands are simply to big to use standard imperial heavy weaponry.
-Centurions and cataphractii terminators crawl along like snails, but can engage turbo boost when it comes to attacking enemy units in CC. This up to 3 times faster movement speed is only enabled when an enemy unit is nearby, otherwise its locked.
A Daemon of the warp can split into two smaller daemons when hit by enemy attacks. Somehow this can cause a zombie to appear nearby (maybe splitting in two is contagious?)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: -A helicopter holding station above the battlefield can be punched by infantrymen, because apparently Grots can jump really, really high.
In the dark future of the 41st millennium, all troops carry pogo sticks as standard equipment...
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Is it not? We must have been playing it wrong then. Please can you explain why frag missiles work better against swarms than krak missiles (to give a common example)?
AnomanderRake wrote: Blood Angels retain their psychic powers when installed in Dreadnaughts, yet the Thousand Sons do not.
To be fair, Thousand Sons Helbrutes aren't piloted by Thousand Sons; they lure other unsuspecting Chaos Space Marines in and trap them in the sarcophagi instead.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Is it not? We must have been playing it wrong then. Please can you explain why frag missiles work better against swarms than krak missiles (to give a common example)?
Mark.
A weapon with multiple shots can spread any successful hits across multiple models in the target unit, and roll to Wound all of them. A single successful Wound applies its Damage to the single Wounded model - excess damage does not transfer. So Wounding a 1W model with a lascannon and rolling 2 or more for the Damage simply means he's very, very dead (and in little bits). It also means that model may need to make multiple Disgustingly Resilient rolls (or equivalent) to shrug off all that damage.
A Frag missile does D6 hits each with 1 Damage; assuming good dice rolls, that means you can kill up to 6 separate 1W models. a Krak missile gets 1 shot with Damage of D6; that will only kill a single model.
Not that this is (IIRC) different to Age of Sigmar; in that game, excess damage does transfer.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Is it not? We must have been playing it wrong then. Please can you explain why frag missiles work better against swarms than krak missiles (to give a common example)?
Mark.
Because a frag missile is intended for anti-infantry, and explodes outwards spreading shrapnel over a wider area; whereas a krak missile is armour-penetrating, with a shaped charge warhead that doesn't spread outwards in the same way.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Swarms are multiple creatures on a single base treated as a single multi-wound model
A Lascannon/Krak missile will kill multiple of the swarmlings, just only one "base" at a time.
An Imperial Guard Junior officer can order another unit to run really, really fast. Like, as fast as a tank fast.
He can also order himself to run really, really fast. However, if he's yelling at another unit to run really fast, he can't order himself to do so. [Clearly only capable of holding one thought in his head at a time.]
Any Chimera can be a command tank. Salamanders can't, even Salamander command tanks! However, to balance this out, only one Chimera per battle, even an apocalypse battle, can be a command tank at any point, and then only some of the time.
Commissars on foot shoot things when they run away. Even Ogryns, who normally could never be killed by a single shot from their bolt pistols. However, if you put the Commissar in a tank, with lots of really big guns, he'll never shot anyone when they run away.
All characters will never run away. Ever. Imperial guard junior officers are considerably less likely to break under battle stress than Khorne berserkers.
One unit of sisters of battle is super faithful and can perform twice as well as any other sister of battle. However, if you field an entire army of super faithful sisters, they're all considerably less faithful by comparison.
It is utterly impossible for a direct hit from an anti tank grenade launcher to kill an Imperial Guard captain. They're just that hard. A full salvo of heavy bolter rounds is just as ineffective. Even a direct hit from an eldar wraithcannon will only be fatal half the time.
A heavy weapons team that suffers a man killed by firing, then consists of one extremely angry man, who can move, and one handedly fire his mortar and his lasgun.
You can fire mortars at a unit charging you from just a few feet away. These shells will likely score direct hits on the attacking troops at no risk what so ever to you, and will hit them before they cross the few feet to charge you.
A Callidus Assassin can disguise herself as a Necron. Also as a Tyranid. This is so confusing at the Tyranids might even forget some of their command points as they stare in amazement.
Vindicare assassins are such good shots they actually struggle to kill unarmoured humans in a single shot. It may take two or three to kill an astropath looking the other way. They also can't cause mortal wounds, unlike regular snipers.
After a certain number of casualties a squad will always run away. Always 100% of the time.
Rough Riders are so proud of themselves, they won't even listen to orders from Creed.
A Callidus Assassin can disguise herself as a Necron. Also as a Tyranid. This is so confusing at the Tyranids might even forget some of their command points as they stare in amazement.
Have you read "Inquisitor"? (it is fairly old and may be out of print...)
Has an assassin disguising herself as a genestealer (which would count as a Tyranid...)
Primaris Marines can't use a Land Raider, but terminators and even Centurions can.
But no one but Primaris Marines can ride in the Special Hovertank.
A tank's ass-end can peek around a corner and shoot you with literally every weapon it has.
Shooting a flying aircraft with a rifle is no harder than shooting a heavier gun.
It is a perfectly reasonable tactic for the most elite force of superhuman soldiers to mob up in a massive horde to run down the middle of the street, because their leaders make them better at killing stuff if they are closer.
A massive, multi-ton pod dropped from orbit at ludicrous speeds can never land on a mob of infantry. We have manners.
If you're scared of your enemy, you will just completely vanish into thin air.
If there is a whole forest between you and your enemy, but you are not in it, you can easily be seen and shot. If you are right at the front of the forest facing your enemy, you are much better concealed...
(I could go on but to be honest the cover rules are low-hanging fruit for this kind of thing....)
-Anyone can operate the guns on a Standard Imperial Fortification, for example his holiness Roboute Gulliman. However, Tech Priest Joe forgot to give the machine it's coffee this morning. So even if, his name be praised, Roboute Gilliman, or any member of the Mechanicum with the proper training is operating the Quad-Lascannon, Plasma Obliterator, or Quad-Autocannon mounted on some Standard Imperial Fortifications the weapon fires as if an Filthy Ork was at the controls.
If one Chaos Sorcerer casts Warptime, the rest will go "you go ahead man, we weren't planning to cast it anyway." Inversely, the Imperials will be polite enough to nominate only one of their Psykers to attempt to deny.
You can get 7 Poxwalker Zombies out of one Pink Horror.
A Culexus Assassin will run around with a "Neener, neener, I am scary" sign making him hard to hit, yet preventing other characters from behind from being shot.
There is ambiguity over whether a Warlord is considered to be alive before the battle starts.
Many flamethrowers, especially ones that do 2 damage, are arguably better at anti-aircraft than crowd control.
A squad of 3 Crisis Suits is hit by a Battlecannon and all 3 die. 3 Crisis Commanders are bunched up exactly the same, but you can only make direct hits against one Commander at a time. Actually, if there's a single floating metal disc in front, it will intercept the blast altogether, boom!
4 Grots standing at the corners of a Land Raider can stop it from moving altogether.
Incinerators are not flamers, but the coruscating flames (Tzeentchian magic) are treated as flamers.
Genestealer Cults are a myth started by a travelling Neophyte whom serves as a contract coordinator between the Tyranids and the Elysians or Kriegers.
Thousand Sons are reluctant to take the battlefield due to Exploding Sorcerer Syndrome (An Aspiring Sorcerer has 1 wound. Meaning it automatically explodes on Perils, and is in a unit of 20-plus pt models).
You can drop a squad of Terminators anywhere on the board with pinpoint accuracy, but getting a Daemon to appear requires other units and dice rolls.
The Fallen can't figure out how to hop onto a transport.
Whoever engineered the Forgefiend and the Defiler, the dedicated shooting machines for Chaos, forgot to put sights on the cannons (BS 4+ that degrades).
Chaos Marks are purely decorative.
Chaos has an artifact that adds +1 to psychic tests, but only for smite.
MagicJuggler wrote: A Culexus Assassin will run around with a "Neener, neener, I am scary" sign making him hard to hit, yet preventing other characters from behind from being shot.
MagicJuggler wrote: A Culexus Assassin will run around with a "Neener, neener, I am scary" sign making him hard to hit, yet preventing other characters from behind from being shot.
They changed this one in the beta rules.
They're beta rules. So it's technically still valid.
Oh, I forgot some!
An airborne flyer cannot be assaulted by units that cannot fly because it's in the air. However, enemy units cannot move under and past it because they're coming within 1" of it.
Given an infinite amount of turns, a single Valkyrie can ram into and destroy an infinite amount of buildings. Maybe Cadia was an inside job and promethium CAN melt adamantium beams?
A flamer can't hit a target more than 100ft away, but has a vertical range of up to 10 miles if there is an airborne target overhead.
Supersonic aircraft move fast. Almost 5 times faster than a running human!
Those who fail their courage just disappear. No one knows where they go or why they don't come back
Commisars occasionally shoot everyone in the squad to prevent them from routing
Dreadnoughts and marines are veterans of thousands of battles - unless a player is involved. Then they have an average lifespan of 30 minutes
Tau always prefer a diplomatic approach - unless a 6'x4' table is nearby. Then bloody combat is needed for the greater good
Non-first founding chapters occasionally discover that they have secretly been ultramarines all along - expect for those times they turn out to be ravenguard
Dark Angels often bring out highly tuned plasma weapons from the dark age for a crucial moment. Then they carefully pack the weapons away and go back to their normal ones.
Guardsmen die by the thousands where only a couple dozen space marines can succeed. Unless there is a 6'x4' table nearby.
A surprising number of Tyranid Monsters know secrets about the Fallen. I've had to mark out at least two tervigons so far.
The Imperium is running out of conscripts - they are getting more expensive
The Deathstrike missile is used to depopulate cities - and occasionally wound a space marine captain
ChargerIIC wrote: Supersonic aircraft move fast. Almost 5 times faster than a running human!
Prior to the Tyranid FAQ that stated you could only Advance once in a Movement Phase, Kraken Genestealers used to be able to outrun supersonic aircraft.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Swarms are multiple creatures on a single base treated as a single multi-wound model
A Lascannon/Krak missile will kill multiple of the swarmlings, just only one "base" at a time.
OMG, didn't even notice the 'swarm' part of the OP did really meant the SWARM rule instead of just stuff like orks, termagants or conscripts. I offer my apologies!
- Custodes choose to ride in Land Raiders despite all the doors being far to small for them to fit through without bending double.
- Custodian squads are only allowed to borrow one of the shield company's vexillas if at least one member of the unit takes a sentinel blade without also having a shield.
- You can only pick up a plasma blaster if you're wearing tartaros pattern armour. But then you can't pick up a storm bolter.
ChargerIIC wrote: A flamer can't hit a target more than 100ft away, but has a vertical range of up to 10 miles if there is an airborne target overhead.
Hey, don't you know - fire rises
Necron characters apparently forgot how to put themselves back together upon receiving critical damage. Like the lesser necrons could.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
That's not how damage rules work...
Swarms are multiple creatures on a single base treated as a single multi-wound model
A Lascannon/Krak missile will kill multiple of the swarmlings, just only one "base" at a time.
OMG, didn't even took notice of the 'swarm' part of the OP did really meant the SWARM rule instead of just stuff like orks, termagants or conscripts. I offer my apologies!
To be fair, in earlier editions it was pretty much the same thing due to the instant death rule. A single multilaser hit could instantly kill a 3w scarab base.
-a unit told to ignore everything and run in a direction moves an extra d6. A unit moving, shooting, and charging into combat could have some guys in the unit move an extra 2d6, plus 3 pile in, plus 3 consolidate, plus another 6 if a fight twice ability is used. Combat is super-motivating for speed!
One hit from a volcano cannon, a gun used to take out titans, only kills one gretchin from a mob of 30. There is even a 16,7% chance that the gretchin survives, without any harm, not even a scratch.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
An Imperial Guard Junior officer can order another unit to run really, really fast. Like, as fast as a tank fast.
He can also order himself to run really, really fast. However, if he's yelling at another unit to run really fast, he can't order himself to do so. [Clearly only capable of holding one thought in his head at a time.]
So, an accurate simulation of Junior Officers, then
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Any Chimera can be a command tank. Salamanders can't, even Salamander command tanks! However, to balance this out, only one Chimera per battle, even an apocalypse battle, can be a command tank at any point, and then only some of the time.
Where is this Chimera Command tank? (Feel you on the Salamander Command Tank, though!)
To be fair, in earlier editions it was pretty much the same thing due to the instant death rule. A single multilaser hit could instantly kill a 3w scarab base.
In 5th a blast strong enough to cause instant death would wipe out 2 swarm bases per hit as it also had a rule that blasts did double damage to swarms (I remember turbo-boosting Necron scarabs (back in the days before they forgot how to fly) through super heavy artillery fire - they could only be hit on a 6, but each hit destroyed 2 bases...)
Apologies, some of these might have been done before (I flicked through the thread).
- Painboyz can somehow heal an Ork of a grievous injury who is half way across the map away from him as long as someone else in the unit is nearby. He must throw the urty syringe or something? - If Orks advance they will always miss with every single shot an Alaitoc Wraithknight, or an Alpha Legion Dreadnought.
- There is more chance of a Kustom Mega Kannon hitting itself than the enemy when firing against Alaitoc, Alpha Legion etc
- Units have a magical forcefield that protects them against units trying to sneak/burrow/teleport/materialise near them.
- If a single Grot/Guardsman/Cultist/Nurgling so much as lays a finger on a tank it cannot fire any weapons, unless it can fly.
- Flying, winged Dreadnoughts.
- Space Wolves can temporarily remember how to fire their guns in melee.
- Guilliman can blend in with a Guardsman.
- Baneblades can sneak up on someone/deep strike. Dat camo paint job do.
Some of the most evil people and ruthless alien life forms in the galaxy still have very high ethical standards when it comes to things like not shooting or running over their own men - even if those men are just expendable minions and it would greatly help them win their battles if they did so...
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Apologies, some of these might have been done before (I flicked through the thread).
- Painboyz can somehow heal an Ork of a grievous injury who is half way across the map away from him as long as someone else in the unit is nearby. He must throw the urty syringe or something?
That boy got hurt, and someone reminded him that the dok's near the back and he can fix 'im right up. Turns out that gaping chestwounds not as bad as the idea of going back there.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Apologies, some of these might have been done before (I flicked through the thread).
- Painboyz can somehow heal an Ork of a grievous injury who is half way across the map away from him as long as someone else in the unit is nearby. He must throw the urty syringe or something?
That boy got hurt, and someone reminded him that the dok's near the back and he can fix 'im right up. Turns out that gaping chestwounds not as bad as the idea of going back there.
Titans inspire awe and terror as they stride across the battlefield - stepping over the top of ant-like infantry in their path. However, the idea of stepping on them makes the Princeps a bit squeamish.
Also, puppy-sized rippers stop them dead in their tracks. At that height, it's easy to mistake a ripper for a puppy and nobody wants to step on a puppy.
AnomanderRake wrote: Blood Angels retain their psychic powers when installed in Dreadnaughts, yet the Thousand Sons do not.
To be fair, Thousand Sons Helbrutes aren't piloted by Thousand Sons; they lure other unsuspecting Chaos Space Marines in and trap them in the sarcophagi instead...
Thousand Sons Sorcerers aren't immortal/invincible, sometimes they get seriously injured. And you can't tell me that literally every single Dreadnaught chassis from 30k in every configuration is still up and running in good order, except for the Osirion.
(Though I do suspect that's more a matter of "Forge World hasn't gotten around to it yet" than anything else.)
Within the Deathwatch armory there are Guardian Spears of the Adeptus Custodes, powerful and ancient Leviathan Dreadnaughts, along with tanks and aircraft that saw combat during the Horus Heresy, but not a single man-portable Lascannon.
Likewise, despite having access to the most advanced technology in the Imperium, the Corvus Blackstar somehow has inferior targeting systems to just about every Astartes flier in existence.
With near-unlimited reach and resources in the imperium, no inquisitor is allowed to bestow carapace or power armor on his acolytes for the tough jobs, and they can only take relatively common weapons.....
Certain Psychic Powers (Treason of Tzeentch, Shroud of Deceit, and Mind Control) could let a player select an enemy model/unit to shoot with as though it were their own. Since these were immediate effects that expired, given enough Warp Charge and Psykers to cast Mind Control, you could theoretically have infinite dakka coming from one model; maybe controlling the enemy also has an innate timestop effect?
In 5th-7th, you had Tank Shock versus Ram. Tank Shock displaced non-vehicle models regardless of size, while Ram didn't. (4th had "tank shock vs vehicles" which was functionally almost like ramming). Thus, while a humble Tetra could stop a Land Raider in its tracks, a single Rhino could push a Riptide around (or force it to flee if it failed its morale check).
There was a lot of skub over what happened should a Rhino manage to reach an anchored Stormsurge and it failed Death or Glory. In theory (read: In theory) you could also one-shot a Wraithknight if you were able to surround it first.
For Chaos Space Marines, the only way to figure out how to pull the trigger on your gun a second time is to make loud music with your "Pew Pew" noises. Otherwise you just shoot the bad guys once and say "Yeah that's fine."
MinscS2 wrote: Yeah what is actually the fluff-reason for Catachan Tanks being able to outgun all other Tanks, even Cadian Tanks?
In fluff, the catachan have entire armored regiments that focus on having bigger and bigger guns. Part of the catachan motto being that bigger explosions is always better. Traditionally they have Battlecannon Leman Russ with Hellhound tanks and the infamous chainsaw sentinals. The fiction fluff has always had the tanks but the rules have never really encouraged it.
That being said, I think GW heavily underestimated how deeply people see catachan through the lens of the rambo movies and refuse to accept anything that goes against that stereotype.
My personal favorite: Grot Tanks have a morale value of I believe 5, and with a max unit size of 5 or 6, it's quite feasible for them to fail a morale check.
Luckily, Runtherds equipped with Squig Hounds have a special rule that say any GRETCHIN unit within 6" that fails a morale check "just" loses D3 models from the unit and otherwise, they pass.
Killa Kanz don't have the GRETCHIN keyword, because that would be stupid.
Guess who didn't think of that when it comes to Grot Tanks.
Starts with F, rhymes with Glorgeworld.
Squig Hounds are capable of instantly devouring 3000 pounds of rusty scrap steel at the slightest hint of hesitation from their drivers.
The art of war was revolutionized when one unit of plague marines used the power of Grandfather Nurgle to throw all their grenades at once.
The surviving Ultramarines immediately filed a complaint for this blatant violation of the Codex Astartes. According to eye witnesses, their grenades blotted out the sun.
ChargerIIC wrote: That being said, I think GW heavily underestimated how deeply people see catachan through the lens of the rambo movies and refuse to accept anything that goes against that stereotype.
Well Rambo, crossed with Predator, crossed with Alien (because every female Catachan is basically Ripley), crossed with Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife!") crossed with every practical effect explosion ever.
I read through the Catachan codex recently (from 3rd I think) and while there is a chance there may have been stuff about tanks on the side, their big premise was sneaking through Death Worlds, ambusing hostiles and dropping hostiles into beautifully crafted traps. Tanks may have come later but they weren't really a focus of the early army concept and while I can see what GW was trying to do, I feel like if they wanted to capture the "they-like-explosions-and-fire-more-than-a-80s-action-movie-directed-by-Michael-Bay" aspect it would have been better to buff the damage rather than the hits. Let the armies that train from birth to do artillery and tank combat be the hyper competent reloaders and make Catachan the army of crazy nutters who'll increase the explosive might of their explosives, and use too much promethium when they burn things causing more damage (say +1 to the standard damage).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: The art of war was revolutionized when one unit of plague marines used the power of Grandfather Nurgle to throw all their grenades at once.
The surviving Ultramarines immediately filed a complaint for this blatant violation of the Codex Astartes. According to eye witnesses, their grenades blotted out the sun.
Meanwhile the Minotaurs were quoted saying they could just enjoy fighting in the shade.
Cheeslord wrote: I think Inquisitors are just supposed to get hold of some Space Marines or Grey Knights if they want soldiers for "tough jobs"...
Acolytes have had carapace and PA since 2nd, this is the only edition where they don't. Also they can get tempestus hot-shot las but none of the carapace that's usually modeled with it
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
An Imperial Guard Junior officer can order another unit to run really, really fast. Like, as fast as a tank fast.
He can also order himself to run really, really fast. However, if he's yelling at another unit to run really fast, he can't order himself to do so. [Clearly only capable of holding one thought in his head at a time.]
So, an accurate simulation of Junior Officers, then
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Any Chimera can be a command tank. Salamanders can't, even Salamander command tanks! However, to balance this out, only one Chimera per battle, even an apocalypse battle, can be a command tank at any point, and then only some of the time.
Where is this Chimera Command tank? (Feel you on the Salamander Command Tank, though!)
I wondered about the chimera command tank and looked it up it's a strategem. 1cp means a chimera can issue an order.
RogueApiary wrote: Within the Deathwatch armory there are Guardian Spears of the Adeptus Custodes, powerful and ancient Leviathan Dreadnaughts, along with tanks and aircraft that saw combat during the Horus Heresy, but not a single man-portable Lascannon.
Likewise, despite having access to the most advanced technology in the Imperium, the Corvus Blackstar somehow has inferior targeting systems to just about every Astartes flier in existence.
Addendum:
-Deathwatch Guardian Spears can fire more advanced ammunition to improve their effects. They have neglected to share these innovations with the Adeptus Custodes.
-Space Marine Veterans have figured out how to combine the effects of Kraken and Vengeance rounds in one weapon. They have neglected to share this innovation with the Deathwatch, who are for still some reason paying an extra 3pts/model for a worse unit.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
An Imperial Guard Junior officer can order another unit to run really, really fast. Like, as fast as a tank fast.
He can also order himself to run really, really fast. However, if he's yelling at another unit to run really fast, he can't order himself to do so. [Clearly only capable of holding one thought in his head at a time.]
So, an accurate simulation of Junior Officers, then
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Any Chimera can be a command tank. Salamanders can't, even Salamander command tanks! However, to balance this out, only one Chimera per battle, even an apocalypse battle, can be a command tank at any point, and then only some of the time.
Where is this Chimera Command tank? (Feel you on the Salamander Command Tank, though!)
I wondered about the chimera command tank and looked it up it's a strategem. 1cp means a chimera can issue an order.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: You can use Mortars as an Anti Air weapon.
You can use basalisks as an anti air weapon. They're suprisingly effective.
I can kind of see using Bassies that way. Set the round to a timed explosion (using MATH!) so it blows like a flakk round at the altitude an aircraft is at. I mean you'd need a lot of them doing it, but I could see the Guard doing something like that in a pinch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things designed to hit high altitude flyers hit ground targets that merely hover above the ground.
Relics won't even pull out of the motor pool unless a certain unit is going to war. Even if there are hundreds of marines, bikers, and the Chapter Master himself goes.
Though the FAQ has resolved some of that (the 10 wounds thing).
ChargerIIC wrote:
MinscS2 wrote: Yeah what is actually the fluff-reason for Catachan Tanks being able to outgun all other Tanks, even Cadian Tanks?
In fluff, the catachan have entire armored regiments that focus on having bigger and bigger guns. Part of the catachan motto being that bigger explosions is always better. Traditionally they have Battlecannon Leman Russ with Hellhound tanks and the infamous chainsaw sentinals. The fiction fluff has always had the tanks but the rules have never really encouraged it.
That being said, I think GW heavily underestimated how deeply people see catachan through the lens of the rambo movies and refuse to accept anything that goes against that stereotype.
Are you sure? I remember flipping through Codex: Catachans back in 3e and I don't remember seeing much about their tanks being special. As a general thing, nothing lasts long on their planet so there's basically no industry to support tank production.
TarkinLarson wrote:
I wondered about the chimera command tank and looked it up it's a strategem. 1cp means a chimera can issue an order.
Huh. Overlooked that. Still, though, the Command vehicles should definitely have a Chimera series option.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:You can use Mortars as an Anti Air weapon.
You can use basalisks as an anti air weapon. They're suprisingly effective.
Air-burst, I guess. That said I don't think I would have thought to do actually do that in game with a mortar.
-A Daemon Prince can usually cause more damage with his bare hands than when he swings a big-ass battle axe at something.
-Mortarion, who in the fluff absolutely despises psykers of any kind, actually is a psyker himself.
-Celestine cries healing tears whenever one of her besties (Geminae) die, but she doesn't bat an eye when other sisters around her are getting slaughtered in droves. Where are those healing tears then?
-A squad of humanity's finest super-human warriors will refuse to exit their burning transport and therefore just willingly die if their transport is surrounded by nothing but Grots.
-Tau robots actually flee the battlefield if a few of them are destroyed. Robots feel fear, obviously. (Seriously, why do Tau Drones have to take Morale tests?)
-All of the famous AM Regiments keep a spare set of Cadian uniforms handy (because too few players have actual non-Cadian models these days).
-A sludge-spurting fire hose is supremely effective at destroying a supersonic aircraft (Foul Blightspawn vs. flyers).
-A cloud of noxious gases from a Blight Hauler somehow makes a Nurgle follower's armor more effective.
Though the FAQ has resolved some of that (the 10 wounds thing).
You do know that everything on that picture is wrong or FAQed?
The first two ones are absolutely correct. In order to shoot at a character, it needs to be closer than another unit - which need not be visible - and it must itself be visible.
-Mortarion, who in the fluff absolutely despises psykers of any kind, actually is a psyker himself.
How is this a rule issue? It's more dramatic irony on part of Nurgle.. Given that yes, he's a psyker because his god granted him the ascension.. And all the fancy powers that he decided he wanted to come with it and morty doesn't get a say. The fluff also mentions he's now even forced to tolerate Sorcerers and Psykers because they are vital to the Chaos engine of war and he's very much not pleased.
-A cloud of noxious gases from a Blight Hauler somehow makes a Nurgle follower's armor more effective.
Hard to see something in a thick, green brackish cloud of gas (trying to hit something that's also green and brackish) means you don't aim as effectively to hit better spots on the armor that would be weaker.
-Mortarion, who in the fluff absolutely despises psykers of any kind, actually is a psyker himself.
How is this a rule issue? It's more dramatic irony on part of Nurgle.. Given that yes, he's a psyker because his god granted him the ascension.. And all the fancy powers that he decided he wanted to come with it and morty doesn't get a say. The fluff also mentions he's now even forced to tolerate Sorcerers and Psykers because they are vital to the Chaos engine of war and he's very much not pleased.
Yeah, I kind of forgot that part of the fluff. Whoops.
-A cloud of noxious gases from a Blight Hauler somehow makes a Nurgle follower's armor more effective.
Hard to see something in a thick, green brackish cloud of gas (trying to hit something that's also green and brackish) means you don't aim as effectively to hit better spots on the armor that would be weaker.
In that case, it should be -1 to hit, not +1 to armor saves. Hence why I think it fits this thread.
Well Rambo, crossed with Predator, crossed with Alien (because every female Catachan is basically Ripley), crossed with Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife!") crossed with every practical effect explosion ever.
-Tau robots actually flee the battlefield if a few of them are destroyed. Robots feel fear, obviously. (Seriously, why do Tau Drones have to take Morale tests?)
Because they are programmed to preserve themselves from needless destruction on one hand (the "moral" aspect), while serving as a "meatshield" for more important assets (the blocking shots for suits part)
Its in the fluff, has been from the day tau were first introduced.
BoomWolf wrote: Because they are programmed to preserve themselves from needless destruction on one hand (the "moral" aspect), while serving as a "meatshield" for more important assets (the blocking shots for suits part)
Its in the fluff, has been from the day tau were first introduced.
That should be represented as the player choosing whether the unit falls back in self-preservation mode, or is ordered to stay. It's a mode switch that should be 100% controlled, not an emotional reaction to how scary combat is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for other rule stupidity: Valkyrie enters hover mode. Valkyrie moves 20+2D6" to charge an enemy tank, locking it in combat and preventing it from shooting. The two units flail ineffectively at each other, but because there is a helicopter bashing into the turret with its landing gear all the tank crew can do is swing the tank's gun around like a club and hope to bludgeon the Valkyrie to death.
Though the FAQ has resolved some of that (the 10 wounds thing).
You do know that everything on that picture is wrong or FAQed?
The first two ones are absolutely correct. In order to shoot at a character, it needs to be closer than another unit - which need not be visible - and it must itself be visible.
You can overwatch characters no matter how close they are if your weapon has enough range. You are not picking targets for overwatch.
The second part is very much intended game design. There is no reason for the farseer to suddenly stick out like a sore thumb because the tau brought a wall between them and the other unit that would otherwise have protected him.
BoomWolf wrote: Because they are programmed to preserve themselves from needless destruction on one hand (the "moral" aspect), while serving as a "meatshield" for more important assets (the blocking shots for suits part)
Its in the fluff, has been from the day tau were first introduced.
That should be represented as the player choosing whether the unit falls back in self-preservation mode, or is ordered to stay. It's a mode switch that should be 100% controlled, not an emotional reaction to how scary combat is.
Why?
Do you get to pick when your marines choose to fall back?
Its an autonomous AI that follows complex scripts, not a simple switch the commander has direct control over.
Imperial Guard Conscripts from Mordia have more accurate overwatch than the Adeptus Custodes.
So do their Sentinals, which are better firing when charged than most of your average Landraiders.
-A vindicaire assassin, one of the galaxy's most lethal sharpshooters, can still only boast 83% accuracy against easy targets, no better than many characters, and falls to an abysmal 17%, just like most of the rest of the game, during overwatch.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
That is the funniest one yet!
-Primaris Intercessors are the least cost effective troop choice to field for the Space Marines, despite being 'better' than your average Tactical Marine.
- Primaris Reivers are cheaper to field than Intercessors, and if equipped with grapnel launchers they are objectively better at the same price.
-Sternguard are cheaper than both, and equipped with better weapons still.
-Marine scouts are half the price, but when armed with a Missile launcher, they are capable of doing just as much damage as Intercessors when using Frag missiles.
Well Rambo, crossed with Predator, crossed with Alien (because every female Catachan is basically Ripley), crossed with Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife!") crossed with every practical effect explosion ever.
Michael Bay agrees with this!
Getting a closer look at the models recently I've noticed that I'm almost certain that some of the faces might actually be sculpted after 80s action starts like Reb Brown and Sylvester Stallone.
The second part is very much intended game design. There is no reason for the farseer to suddenly stick out like a sore thumb because the tau brought a wall between them and the other unit that would otherwise have protected him.
Apart from you know being only guy visible? There's nobody else to confuse enemy. There's this big wall and then there's this lone enemy guy. Yeah let's shoot that indestructible wall rather than the enemy. Maybe there's enemy behind the wall and they get scared to death by the sound!
Being good at weapon development, the Tau quickly realised they could weld two sturdy vehicles together with a small gap in between them, strap a broadside in between using bungee cord, and steer the whole assembly round so the broadside could only see a single model directly in front of him, which might just happen to be the enemy commander...
A battlewagon can run over a unit of scouts sitting in the second floor, because they are within 1" of its hull.
The gorkanaut standing right next to the battlewagon cannot strike them with its klaw despite the naut towering over them, because they are 4" from its base
The second part is very much intended game design. There is no reason for the farseer to suddenly stick out like a sore thumb because the tau brought a wall between them and the other unit that would otherwise have protected him.
Apart from you know being only guy visible? There's nobody else to confuse enemy. There's this big wall and then there's this lone enemy guy. Yeah let's shoot that indestructible wall rather than the enemy. Maybe there's enemy behind the wall and they get scared to death by the sound!
Yeah makes sense.
In the Grim Derpness of the Far Future, there still is Chivalry. I guess.
That advancing and zooming/dodging flying Vyper Jetbike going 26" or more is just as easy to hit as that massive Baneblade that is stationary!!!
Eldar go to war with a 12" range gun and then they can outrun their ammo sometimes.
You should see Grenades....The elder can easily run 3 times as fast as they can throw.....faster with a psychic nudge. A game of American Football would never go well with these guys.
admironheart wrote: That advancing and zooming/dodging flying Vyper Jetbike going 26" or more is just as easy to hit as that massive Baneblade that is stationary!!!
You should see Grenades....The elder can easily run 3 times as fast as they can throw.....faster with a psychic nudge. A game of American Football would never go well with these guys.
Man that would be tough. Is it legal in A.football rules for a QB to throw a pass to himself?
Automatically Appended Next Post: After more thinking about it, I realized that mathematically, any marine captain-type character, as well as any marine in their command aura, including neophytes, have better accuracy than a vindicaire assassin. Man that guy needs some pointers.
admironheart wrote: That advancing and zooming/dodging flying Vyper Jetbike going 26" or more is just as easy to hit as that massive Baneblade that is stationary!!!...
One simple upgrade and a Stratagem, on the other hand, can make an advancing/dodging/zooming/flying Hornet physically impossible to hit by anything short of a Space Marine Captain.
Except for the Sicaran Battle Tank's autocannon. He gives no f***s.
Anything with the fly keyword (no matter how slow in the lore it may be or if it only hovers 5 feet of the ground) can catch up and get into close combat with Super Sonic Ork Jets.
-A 70 ton breakthrough tank smashes into a rebel Guard unit and halts. Despite the enemy swarming the hull the crew do not use the defensive weapons that are in place for specifically this reason, and the main gun does not fire on anything else that might be a big threat. Instead the tank halts in place and grinds its tracks ineffectually turning to the left and right, attempting to club the infantry with its sides.
-Explosive shells are apparently canister shot that contain a random number of BB's
master of ordinance wrote: -A 70 ton breakthrough tank smashes into a rebel Guard unit and halts. Despite the enemy swarming the hull the crew do not use the defensive weapons that are in place for specifically this reason, and the main gun does not fire on anything else that might be a big threat. Instead the tank halts in place and grinds its tracks ineffectually turning to the left and right, attempting to club the infantry with its sides.
-Explosive shells are apparently canister shot that contain a random number of BB's
Goliath bane blade cannons in slow and massive tutrets that fomfire giant shells made to kill tanks are perfect anti air weapons!
No matter what he is killed by, be it a Grot, a snipers bullet, a Volcano cannon, or an exploding titan, there is no wound the humble Imperial Guard Medic can not fix instantly.
Unless the rest of his squad died too. Then screw them all.
The second part is very much intended game design. There is no reason for the farseer to suddenly stick out like a sore thumb because the tau brought a wall between them and the other unit that would otherwise have protected him.
Apart from you know being only guy visible? There's nobody else to confuse enemy. There's this big wall and then there's this lone enemy guy. Yeah let's shoot that indestructible wall rather than the enemy. Maybe there's enemy behind the wall and they get scared to death by the sound!
Yeah makes sense.
If line of sight mattered, you'd be able to drive a big vehicle between the units so your shooters would only be able to see the character. The situation isn't any less absurd, just different.
One big rules comedy are the competitive army lists -
Space Marines - Commanders arriving at battle with empty transports (razorbacks) and empty flying tansports (stormhawk). Not a marine in sight. There are some guardsmens here for some reason, and they can't get in the transports.
Magus - Magus goes to war with none of his own marines and all demons and commanders.
Mortarion - Mortarion goes to war with none of his own marines and all vehicles and commanders and pox walkers.
Gulliman - Gulliman goes to war, leading his brave razorbacks to war. Sometimes, he even brings a couple ultramarines, but mostly he loves leading imperial guardsmen.
Blood angels - blood angel commanders go to war, leading an army of guardsmen.
Space wolves - space wolves commanders go to war, leading an army of guardsmen and imperial assassins.
Chaos Space Marines - Demon princes and other chaos lords go to war, leading an army of cultists. Oh, and disregard their markings, they are all Alpha Legion.
Eldar - FYI, All other craftwords are destroyed, only Alaitoc exists now.
Imperial Guard - entire armies made up of guardsmen and lemon russ tanks...oh. Actually these look pretty good.
ashmizen wrote: One big rules comedy are the competitive army lists -
Space Marines - Commanders arriving at battle with empty transports (razorbacks) and empty flying tansports (stormhawk). Not a marine in sight. There are some guardsmens here for some reason, and they can't get in the transports.
Magus - Magus goes to war with none of his own marines and all demons and commanders.
Mortarion - Mortarion goes to war with none of his own marines and all vehicles and commanders and pox walkers.
Gulliman - Gulliman goes to war, leading his brave razorbacks to war. Sometimes, he even brings a couple ultramarines, but mostly he loves leading imperial guardsmen.
Blood angels - blood angel commanders go to war, leading an army of guardsmen.
Space wolves - space wolves commanders go to war, leading an army of guardsmen and imperial assassins.
Those spacemarines are working hard directing all these guardsmen to the front line. To die for the emperor like they are ment too. To say otherwise is heresy.
I haven't been able to shake the image of a spacemarine sergeant walking past a line up of the local population say frontline infantry as he eyes up everyone he walks past. Followed by his squad of marines handing out lasguns and flak vests.
Guilliman has been busy rewriting the Codex Astartes after seeing the desperate state of the space marine chapters.
To reduce casualties by 98%, the new Codex Astartes dictates that Companies 1-9 are no longer allowed to be deployed in battle. No more terminators. No more assault or tactical squads.
Instead, all battles are to be fought with just the company captain, supplied with scouts from the 10th company, all the vehicles as needed from the armory (driver only), and an entire battalion of imperial guard.
To reduce casualties, Gulliman will fight in half the battles himself, since he can't really die.
In response, chaos space marines have countered with the same strategy, sending the demon prince primarchs to every battle, deployed with their most trusted chaos lords and sorcerers, commanding a huge army of ... cultists, pox walkers, and demons.
Anrakyr is incapable of riding any transports because he lacks a <dynasty> keyword. For a guy who's title is "The Traveler" he's pretty bad at traveling, isn't he?
Commissar Yarrick stands triumphantly on the objective, Old One Eye barrels in, determined to squish the small lump of biomasss... And stops physically nose to nose with Yarrick, unable to attack him because Yarrick is standing on a 2.5in tall walkway.
A few turns later, a group of Neophytes climb up the same walkway to give Yarrick a stern talking to, but somehow get run over by the Leman Russ sitting next to the walkway
(seriously, the double standard of monstrous creatures being unable to attack when vehicles can is very upsetting)
It does need a lot of shots though...
(in fact in a normal battle there would not be enough time for a single guy with a gun to destroy a superheavy, so arguably it cannot)
master of ordinance wrote: -A 70 ton breakthrough tank smashes into a rebel Guard unit and halts. Despite the enemy swarming the hull the crew do not use the defensive weapons that are in place for specifically this reason, and the main gun does not fire on anything else that might be a big threat. Instead the tank halts in place and grinds its tracks ineffectually turning to the left and right, attempting to club the infantry with its sides.
Unless, of course, that tank upscales a couple of times, then it suddenly can do all the things you want. Plus, the track-grinding gets better too.
The GK relic book (Domina Liber Daemonica) gives enemy daemon units a -1 to Ld. Note that it does not affect friendly daemon units. So all of you open players who like to mix Daemons and GK can do so without having to worry about your relic book hurting you.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The GK relic book (Domina Liber Daemonica) gives enemy daemon units a -1 to Ld. Note that it does not affect friendly daemon units. So all of you open players who like to mix Daemons and GK can do so without having to worry about your relic book hurting you.
Open & narrative play, as well as allies in team games.
I also suspect we'll see more units get the Daemon keyword at some point - I could see it for Celestine and Legion of the Damned, for example.
C4790M wrote:Using an example from a game I played recently:
Commissar Yarrick stands triumphantly on the objective, Old One Eye barrels in, determined to squish the small lump of biomasss... And stops physically nose to nose with Yarrick, unable to attack him because Yarrick is standing on a 2.5in tall walkway.
A few turns later, a group of Neophytes climb up the same walkway to give Yarrick a stern talking to, but somehow get run over by the Leman Russ sitting next to the walkway
(seriously, the double standard of monstrous creatures being unable to attack when vehicles can is very upsetting)
A Morka/Gorkanaught would have the same problem too. This could probably be solved by just putting everything on bases.
Arachnofiend wrote:Anrakyr is incapable of riding any transports because he lacks a <dynasty> keyword. For a guy who's title is "The Traveler" he's pretty bad at traveling, isn't he?
Clearly all those Necrotyr runes say "no hitchhikers".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The GK relic book (Domina Liber Daemonica) gives enemy daemon units a -1 to Ld. Note that it does not affect friendly daemon units. So all of you open players who like to mix Daemons and GK can do so without having to worry about your relic book hurting you.
Well my Inquistitorial Daemonhosts would be happy (if they unit wasn't so pants as to not be used).
The Culexys Assassin, despite being a soulless abomination that makes every psyker shudder just by being on the same continent as him, can't effect friendly psykers.
Its weird that only apothecaries can return destroyed, or slain models to a unit which has suffered casualties. One would think that a chapter master or captain could do that, by calling the high command asking for reinforcements. But no, only an apothecary can do that, and high command only listens half the time. They must be pretty busy.
Or does one space marine, or scout, become insanely strong when he is the only one left of his unit and drags all his destroyed, or slain comrades across the entire battlefield (without impeding any of his abilities to shoot, run, or fight) to a friendly apothecary who then can restore one of his comrades ? It doesnt matter how many apothecaries there are, only one model can be restored, and it only works half the time. It never gets easier, no matter how many apothecaries there are.
p5freak wrote: Its weird that only apothecaries can return destroyed, or slain models to a unit which has suffered casualties. One would think that a chapter master or captain could do that, by calling the high command asking for reinforcements. But no, only an apothecary can do that, and high command only listens half the time. They must be pretty busy.
Or does one space marine, or scout, become insanely strong when he is the only one left of his unit and drags all his destroyed, or slain comrades across the entire battlefield (without impeding any of his abilities to shoot, run, or fight) to a friendly apothecary who then can restore one of his comrades ? It doesnt matter how many apothecaries there are, only one model can be restored, and it only works half the time. It never gets easier, no matter how many apothecaries there are.
In the grim future no one knows first aid....
To be fair, the Apothecary is a very specialized role and is among the few in the chapter who understand Space Marine biology enough to treat wounds properly. That said, the same excuse can't be made for the Imperial Guard who all should have some kind of combat lifesaver training to save their friends. Or it's possible that they just kick the bodies into a ditch or something....
After shooting it a million times, sure. I'm pretty sure the tank will kill the idiot who's shooting it with a low caliber handgun before that happens.
After shooting it a million times, sure. I'm pretty sure the tank will kill the idiot who's shooting it with a low caliber handgun before that happens.
Yeah, to be fair, as a superheavy tank player, I don't even mind this. I choose to view it less as "the pistol fired, and the round sprang off the armour, and the tank fell apart" and more as "the tank is super beat up - presumably torn up by pre-existing anti-tank weapons and possibly even close combat power. The crew are on their last threads of stress, with each ping against the hull representing potential death. Each man is a trembling wreck, at least among those who survive at all, and the vehicle's warning klaxons blare all kinds of emergencies in their ears. There is an uncontrolled fire on the lower deck, the damage control teams are trapped in a compartment rapidly filling with smoke, and the ammunition racks for one of the heavy bolter sponsons is jammed shut."
The pistol may not even fire fluffwise; rather, it's a rules mechanic that simply reflects the crew losing their nerve. But admittedly, yes, if you follow the rule logic to the letter and don't FORGE THE NARRATIVE hard enough you get nonsense (which is true for most things really).
When a space marine is a recruit (a scout) he knows how to fight with a combat knife, it gives him +1 attack in melee. Once he becomes a tactical space marine he forgets how to use it properly, no more +1 attack.
To be fair, the Apothecary is a very specialized role and is among the few in the chapter who understand Space Marine biology enough to treat wounds properly. That said, the same excuse can't be made for the Imperial Guard who all should have some kind of combat lifesaver training to save their friends. Or it's possible that they just kick the bodies into a ditch or something....
I believe it is cannon that guardsmen are so expendable, wasting the time teaching them how to treat the 1 in 2,000,000 wounds in the grim dark future that is possibly survivable is not worth it
To be fair, the Apothecary is a very specialized role and is among the few in the chapter who understand Space Marine biology enough to treat wounds properly. That said, the same excuse can't be made for the Imperial Guard who all should have some kind of combat lifesaver training to save their friends. Or it's possible that they just kick the bodies into a ditch or something....
I believe it is cannon that guardsmen are so expendable, wasting the time teaching them how to treat the 1 in 2,000,000 wounds in the grim dark future that is possibly survivable is not worth it
While true for Krieg, I'm almost positive that Cadians would be trying to save every body they've got since they got Tanith'd.
To be fair, the Apothecary is a very specialized role and is among the few in the chapter who understand Space Marine biology enough to treat wounds properly. That said, the same excuse can't be made for the Imperial Guard who all should have some kind of combat lifesaver training to save their friends. Or it's possible that they just kick the bodies into a ditch or something....
I believe it is cannon that guardsmen are so expendable, wasting the time teaching them how to treat the 1 in 2,000,000 wounds in the grim dark future that is possibly survivable is not worth it
The Uplifting Primer definitely had (very) basic first aid.
You know that casualties are not necessarily dead, just incapacitated, right? (except for people whose plasma guns overheated. They are Slain.) Some of them are probably being given emergency first aid in an unconsidered corner by those guys who failed their morale check and ran off. We do not need to take every dice roll as a precisely defined event.
Speaking about rules comedy and armies having rules that don't align with their fluff, my personal favorite one is still this:
Iyanden is a dying Craftworld that has to rely increasingly on Wraith units. To show their overall tenacity, an Iyanden unit cannot lose more than one model to Battleshock, as if every unit was its own pre-nerf Commissar. The problem? Wraithguard have high leadership and a low model count, while other Wraith units are "single-model" and thus immune to Battleshock, therefore gaining nothing from the Iyanden bonus. If you really want to get the most mileage from the Iyanden bonus, you want to play them as a "horde" of Guardians drowning the enemy in their bodies and a wave of shuriken fire.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
That is the funniest one yet!
-Primaris Intercessors are the least cost effective troop choice to field for the Space Marines, despite being 'better' than your average Tactical Marine.
- Primaris Reivers are cheaper to field than Intercessors, and if equipped with grapnel launchers they are objectively better at the same price.
-Sternguard are cheaper than both, and equipped with better weapons still.
-Marine scouts are half the price, but when armed with a Missile launcher, they are capable of doing just as much damage as Intercessors when using Frag missiles.
Primaris are objectively better than any Troop choice point for point except for Guardsmen (and even better than them if you don't give them an order to fire twice)
Reivers = 90 pts, Intercessors = 90 pts (what you said was true on 8th release, no longer so)
Sternguard are a contender for the worst marine unit for the points they cost, being 1 W less for the same price as Primaris, sure they get an additional armor penetration, but that's no way a fair exchange, especially since they take up an Elite slot
--las pistols, grot blasters, and human fists can kill tanks
Not really a disconnect - think of it as getting the shoots in the small cracks or the nice vulnerable mechanical bits. Or picking off the spotter if he sticks his head out the hatch. Or just jamming the barrels. People in WW2 were killing tanks with petrol loaded socks. Not hard to think the same principles can apply.
MagicJuggler wrote: Speaking about rules comedy and armies having rules that don't align with their fluff, my personal favorite one is still this:
Iyanden is a dying Craftworld that has to rely increasingly on Wraith units. To show their overall tenacity, an Iyanden unit cannot lose more than one model to Battleshock, as if every unit was its own pre-nerf Commissar. The problem? Wraithguard have high leadership and a low model count, while other Wraith units are "single-model" and thus immune to Battleshock, therefore gaining nothing from the Iyanden bonus. If you really want to get the most mileage from the Iyanden bonus, you want to play them as a "horde" of Guardians drowning the enemy in their bodies and a wave of shuriken fire.
Well that or only play against Night Lord/Slaanesh armies that specialize in reducing your leadership stat.
MagicJuggler wrote: Speaking about rules comedy and armies having rules that don't align with their fluff, my personal favorite one is still this:
Iyanden is a dying Craftworld that has to rely increasingly on Wraith units. To show their overall tenacity, an Iyanden unit cannot lose more than one model to Battleshock, as if every unit was its own pre-nerf Commissar. The problem? Wraithguard have high leadership and a low model count, while other Wraith units are "single-model" and thus immune to Battleshock, therefore gaining nothing from the Iyanden bonus. If you really want to get the most mileage from the Iyanden bonus, you want to play them as a "horde" of Guardians drowning the enemy in their bodies and a wave of shuriken fire.
Well that or only play against Night Lord/Slaanesh armies that specialize in reducing your leadership stat.
Speaking of Night Lords, their Leadership mod can be used to debuff the Leadership of enemy Characters, which makes them easier to use Treason of Tzeentch on if you ally in some Daemons. Spooky spooky mind control...
- All Custodes have a Misericordia, unless they decide they don't want to pay for the upgrade, then suddenly they don't.
- A Custodian using a two handed spear or axe suddenly finds a third hand to wave about his Misericordia.
- A Vexilus Praetor can hold his vexilla whilst also using a two handed spear or shield AND still swing his Miericordia, but can't use one less hand to hold a shield and use the knife (but he can still pay points for the weapon which he is unable to use...)
Lord Damocles wrote: - All Custodes have a Misericordia, unless they decide they don't want to pay for the upgrade, then suddenly they don't.
- A Custodian using a two handed spear or axe suddenly finds a third hand to wave about his Misericordia.
- A Vexilus Praetor can hold his vexilla whilst also using a two handed spear or shield AND still swing his Miericordia, but can't use one less hand to hold a shield and use the knife (but he can still pay points for the weapon which he is unable to use...)
master of ordinance wrote: -Shouting at a Lasgun can cause it to suddenly doubly its cyclic rate of fire
-But only those lasguns in that one unit, not the ones in the unit over
Apparently Lasguns are voice-locked into single-fire mode until an officer voice authorizes the gun to unlock automatic fire mode. Keeps the grunts from accidentally shooting the Commissar, I guess.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or its to simulate the guardsmen being ordered to use rank fire. A real life tactic.
Funnily enough, Warmachine has Ranked Attacks as a rule for certain units, letting them trace LOS through themselves (the game doesn't use TLOS) in order to allow them to hit the enemy.
You can clip an enemy vehicle by the flagpost if it's mounted on a base. If the vehicle is not on a base, you ignore anything except the hull, so a tank cannot fire from its turret.
We have a conclave of Librarians with a trio of Vindicators advancing on the Guard gunline. The Librarians hide behind the Vindicators - suddenly the Vindicators vanish and the conclave can be seen preparing to buff something! Quickly the Guard guns turn to bear on the Librarians, but instead of looking scared the Librarians grin.
Confusion reigns on the Guard line as the valiant fighters suddenly realise they cannot shoot the librarians they can plainly see in the open because they cannot draw a line of sight to them. The artillery battery/mortar battery that was about to fire over open sights suddenly realises that it has to lob its shells indirectly and guess where they are landing despite the librarians being plainly visible.
Behind their invisible Vindicator squadron the Librarians giggle.
TL;DR, Invisibility was utterly stupid. For a more extreme example try applying it too a 50 man blob unit or a super heavy tank or *sniggers* a titan.
Some flyers who cant hover have a minimum movement distance, which they must move, if they dont, they crash. But when hit by a tremor cannon, they suddenly can move half their movement distance without crashing.
After shooting it a million times, sure. I'm pretty sure the tank will kill the idiot who's shooting it with a low caliber handgun before that happens.
Yeah, to be fair, as a superheavy tank player, I don't even mind this. I choose to view it less as "the pistol fired, and the round sprang off the armour, and the tank fell apart" and more as "the tank is super beat up - presumably torn up by pre-existing anti-tank weapons and possibly even close combat power. The crew are on their last threads of stress, with each ping against the hull representing potential death. Each man is a trembling wreck, at least among those who survive at all, and the vehicle's warning klaxons blare all kinds of emergencies in their ears. There is an uncontrolled fire on the lower deck, the damage control teams are trapped in a compartment rapidly filling with smoke, and the ammunition racks for one of the heavy bolter sponsons is jammed shut."
The pistol may not even fire fluffwise; rather, it's a rules mechanic that simply reflects the crew losing their nerve. But admittedly, yes, if you follow the rule logic to the letter and don't FORGE THE NARRATIVE hard enough you get nonsense (which is true for most things really).
Or perhaps the superheavy is leaking promethium fuel, and a particularly astute guardsman spots that and uses his lasgun shot to ignite the fuel, which reaches the still half-full fueltank half a second later...
Or one of the crewmembers of the superheavy had to climb outside of his badly damaged vehicle to repair a critical component to prevent it from overheating, and the guardsman puts a lasgun shot in his head, preventing the crewman from repairing anything, leading to a spectacular meltdown.
p5freak wrote: Some flyers who cant hover have a minimum movement distance, which they must move, if they dont, they crash. But when hit by a tremor cannon, they suddenly can move half their movement distance without crashing.
Similarly, the termite assault drill's ground tremors deal a mortal wound to everything around, even things in the air!
- Sister Hospitaller resurrects dead Sisters using the same tools she's just punched into a Daemon Prince. Either she wiped the Warp-blood off on her habit, or.... euw.
- Sister Hospitaller resurrects dead Sisters with the same tool she can use to punch a Baneblade to death. What exactly is in that thing on her wrist?!
Similarly, the termite assault drill's ground tremors deal a mortal wound to everything around, even things in the air!
The mawloc does the same. This giant worm must have incredible speed when he pops out of the earth and skyrockets into the heavens to hit that supersonic flyer, with deadly accuracy, his hit rate is 83%.
The supercharged plasma issue with hit modifiers is crazy, and IMO the Designer's Comments clarified it the wrong way.
Vehicles should be able to shoot when falling back and shoot units they're not in close combat with. They should also inflict mortal wounds in close combat so troops are more likely to be crushed or fallback so as not to stop the vehicle continuing.
I'd've been okay with monsters/infantry/everything else having the same LOS restrictions as vehicles did, but I'm equally okay with vehicles having the same LOS restrictions that everything else did.
It was wonky to have both in the same game, and at the scale we're talking about (and with some of the players in the community we're in), I'd have been alarmed to see that monstrous creatures and infantry now have to behave like tanks.
"Yeah my riptide is a special variant that keeps the fuckhueg gun on a head-mount made from straws I got at the local wendy's."
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd've been okay with monsters/infantry/everything else having the same LOS restrictions as vehicles did, but I'm equally okay with vehicles having the same LOS restrictions that everything else did.
It was wonky to have both in the same game, and at the scale we're talking about (and with some of the players in the community we're in), I'd have been alarmed to see that monstrous creatures and infantry now have to behave like tanks.
Agreed. It may create some weird situations, but at least it's consistent.
Realism is nice, but not if it creates arguments like the old LoS rules often did.
Models cant embark on a transport when they moved first, and dont get within 3". The transport has to move first, only then models can embark, they have to run and jump, or something like that. A transport cannot pickup models who stood still, its impossible.
A Basilisk can somehow shoot an enemy model that is 1" away from it (literally behind the muzzle), yet the Plagueburst Crawler, with a very stumpy gun muzzle, can only hit targets that are more than 12" away.
Before the battle begins you can nominate a feculant gnarlmaw to be your warlord. After deployment it becomes terrain and completely untargetable by everything preventing slay the warlord
"the tank is super beat up - presumably torn up by pre-existing anti-tank weapons and possibly even close combat power. The crew are on their last threads of stress, with each ping against the hull representing potential death. Each man is a trembling wreck, at least among those who survive at all, and the vehicle's warning klaxons blare all kinds of emergencies in their ears. There is an uncontrolled fire on the lower deck, the damage control teams are trapped in a compartment rapidly filling with smoke, and the ammunition racks for one of the heavy bolter sponsons is jammed shut."
Sounds like the crew need to drink more Gnomish Vodka...
Stormonu wrote: - Despite the fact the towering blue marine commander stands twice as tall as everybody around him, you're not allowed to shoot him unless he decides to stand in front of his troops
To build upon your example:
Unit behind a wall or around a corner that you can't see prevents you from shooting a character further away in line of sight.
Jidmah wrote: A plane physically touching a character on top of a building cannot shoot it because there is a unit on the botton floor of that building is closer.
How on earth is that physically possible to have the unit on the ground closer than they character you are physically touching?
Is EVERYONE forgetting you measure distances from the model and not the base?
Not that you are allowed to physically touch him, as you have to stay 1" away...
Jidmah wrote: A plane physically touching a character on top of a building cannot shoot it because there is a unit on the botton floor of that building is closer.
How on earth is that physically possible to have the unit on the ground closer than they character you are physically touching?
Is EVERYONE forgetting you measure distances from the model and not the base?
Not that you are allowed to physically touch him, as you have to stay 1" away...
You do realise ranges are measured base to base and not model to model, right? Unless a rule on the datasheet (normally for skimmers) says otherwise. For Valkyries and other flyers you measure to the base.
Might I also restate the comedy of Sonic the Genestealer?
Tyranids have a Stratagem called Metabolic Overdrive that lets a unit move a second time in the Movement Phase in exchange for not being able to Charge that turn. Hive Fleet Kraken Tyranids roll 3d6 and pick the highest roll for determining their Advance move, while their Opportunistic Advance Stratagem lets them double their Advance distance for that movement phase. The initial issue was that RaW, Advance added to your Move Characteristic for that phase, instead of increasing your characteristic for that specific move. Thus, a unit of Kraken Genestealers could move not 8 + 12 + 8 + 12 inches in the Move Phase, but 8 + 12 + 8 + 12 + 12. Combine with a Swarmlord's Hive Commander abilty for an effective top speed of 66", and a unit of Kraken Genestealers could outrun a supersonic aircraft on foot. Gotta go fast!
GW FAQed this not by stating that Advancing only applies to a specific move, but by stating that you can only advance once in a phase and it applies to all moves made that phase. This did make the initial Sonic the Genestealer option slower, with a top speed of only 54". However, GW also clarified that Opportunistic Advance could be used with Hive Commander, Overrun, Mind Eater, or any other ability that lets a unit "move as though it were the Movement Phase." Don't forget that Genestealers can Advance and Charge. Aside from giving a unit of Kraken Genestealers a theoretical top speed of 98" (8+12 from Move & Opportunistic Advance, 8+12 from Hive Commander and Opportunistic Advance, 12 from Charge, 3 from Piling In, 3 from Consolidate, 8 + 12 from Overrun and Opportunistic Advance, and another 8 + 12 from Mind Eater and Advance), the Opportunistic Advance ruling sets a messy precedent for Dark Eldar due to GW not strictly defining what "as if in another phase" actually means.
Jidmah wrote: A plane physically touching a character on top of a building cannot shoot it because there is a unit on the botton floor of that building is closer.
How on earth is that physically possible to have the unit on the ground closer than they character you are physically touching?
Is EVERYONE forgetting you measure distances from the model and not the base?
Not that you are allowed to physically touch him, as you have to stay 1" away...
The rule you are thinking about is called "hover tank". Guess what kind of models don't have it - anything with a flyer base.
Do you want to know the best part? The German translation of that rules is flawed, telling you to ignore the tank and measure to the base. It is physically impossible to assault a German hammerhead because the model blocks you from coming within 1" of its base.
OHO! Looks like we got some more ammunition in the last couple days.
-Supreme command insists that the army not reserve more than half of its units, and now also insists that the units' relative power be no more than half also. Issue is that your supervisor uses a very odd metric to determine this. Somehow he has deemed that 4 inceptors are just as powerful as 6, and 5 sanguinary guard are as powerful as 10! Better send out a 6th man to several of the units on the ground to placate him!
-soldiers dropping in from orbit or teleporting into battle somehow can't show up on most of the battlefield until a certain amount of time has passed. It doesn't seem to matter if the armies pass that time fighting or holding position and taking no actions.
-commanders who either had a decent number of troops or a well-diversified army just spontaneously became better commanders.
-Despite what the fluff says, there are only three or less of every unit in existence, unless that unit is considered a basic troop or transport. If your company of marines needs off an exploding planet in a hurry, those 3 stormravens are going to have a tough time. (Humorously, this means that the game now has a soft-cap of how big the game could be! At a certain point, you'd have 3 of every non-troop and would be forced to take repeated auxiliary detachments for troops only from that point on. Never mind that this hypothetical army deployment would still be unthinkably massive.)
-units that can easily climb walls, hover, or even endlessly sustain flight cannot punch you if they can't "set foot" on the same floor of a ruin as you. Apparently flying just next to you to attack didn't occur to them, even though they can fly up and melee a jet soaring by.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the hits keep on coming!
-Supreme command has forbidden you from utilizing more than three marine captains. In a hilarious loophole, however, you are allowed to also requisition three captains in terminator armor, AND three captains in cataphractii terminator armor! Not to mention the three primaris captains in power armor and the three in gravis armor.
niv-mizzet wrote: OHO! Looks like we got some more ammunition in the last couple days.
-Supreme command insists that the army not reserve more than half of its units, and now also insists that the units' relative power be no more than half also. Issue is that your supervisor uses a very odd metric to determine this. Somehow he has deemed that 4 inceptors are just as powerful as 6, and 5 sanguinary guard are as powerful as 10! Better send out a 6th man to several of the units on the ground to placate him!
-soldiers dropping in from orbit or teleporting into battle somehow can't show up on most of the battlefield until a certain amount of time has passed. It doesn't seem to matter if the armies pass that time fighting or holding position and taking no actions.
-commanders who either had a decent number of troops or a well-diversified army just spontaneously became better commanders.
-Despite what the fluff says, there are only three or less of every unit in existence, unless that unit is considered a basic troop or transport. If your company of marines needs off an exploding planet in a hurry, those 3 stormravens are going to have a tough time. (Humorously, this means that the game now has a soft-cap of how big the game could be! At a certain point, you'd have 3 of every non-troop and would be forced to take repeated auxiliary detachments for troops only from that point on. Never mind that this hypothetical army deployment would still be unthinkably massive.)
-units that can easily climb walls, hover, or even endlessly sustain flight cannot punch you if they can't "set foot" on the same floor of a ruin as you. Apparently flying just next to you to attack didn't occur to them, even though they can fly up and melee a jet soaring by.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the hits keep on coming!
-Supreme command has forbidden you from utilizing more than three marine captains. In a hilarious loophole, however, you are allowed to also requisition three captains in terminator armor, AND three captains in cataphractii terminator armor! Not to mention the three primaris captains in power armor and the three in gravis armor.
Ok, that last part is pretty cheeky. Makes the 'rule of three' not really matter to marines...
I always liked the Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnaught who could use Wings of Sanguinius to get up into a ruin, but then if you can keep denying his attempts to cast it again he's stuck up there.
AnomanderRake wrote: I always liked the Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnaught who could use Wings of Sanguinius to get up into a ruin, but then if you can keep denying his attempts to cast it again he's stuck up there.
AnomanderRake wrote: I always liked the Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnaught who could use Wings of Sanguinius to get up into a ruin, but then if you can keep denying his attempts to cast it again he's stuck up there.
Doesnt matter, the dread can still move to the ground floor of a ruin.
BRB update 1.2
Page 248 – Ruins
Change the first paragraph of rules text to read:
‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry
and Bikers can only be set up or end their move on the
ground floor of ruins.’
Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
But that it cannot fail to do so...?
Then it was clearly built by the Imperial Fists at some point and takes more effort to rip out of the ground.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
But that it cannot fail to do so...?
I mean, why would it fail? Forgot to turn on the matter disintegration field or something?
The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
Ok sorry, i didnt know knight pilots are also engineers who know weak points of fortresses, or any other fortification. Poor imperial fists are now useless, knights will do the job of tearing down fortifications. Will they find new jobs at the employment center ? Are we going to see poor imperial fists selling their power armor to buy food ?
Its possible that a knights needs more time killing an ogryn than an imperial bunker with his death grip, which makes perfect sense. Steel and concrete is much easier to break than flesh and bones.
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
Ok sorry, i didnt know knight pilots are also engineers who know weak points of fortresses, or any other fortification. Poor imperial fists are now useless, knights will do the job of tearing down fortifications. Will they find new jobs at the employment center ? Are we going to see poor imperial fists selling their power armor to buy food ?
Its possible that a knights needs more time killing an ogryn than an imperial bunker with his death grip, which makes perfect sense. Steel and concrete is much easier to break than flesh and bones.
The fact that the Knight has to do it with his fist and not by shooting shows that the Imperial Fists can still do it better.
The point was the feet versus fist thing could at least be justified to some extent.
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
Ok sorry, i didnt know knight pilots are also engineers who know weak points of fortresses, or any other fortification. Poor imperial fists are now useless, knights will do the job of tearing down fortifications. Will they find new jobs at the employment center ? Are we going to see poor imperial fists selling their power armor to buy food ?
Its possible that a knights needs more time killing an ogryn than an imperial bunker with his death grip, which makes perfect sense. Steel and concrete is much easier to break than flesh and bones.
The flesh and bones can wiggle out of your grasp, steel and concrete cannot.
Plus! Knights have Machine Spirits, presumably, which can calculate the weakspots of a fortress after it has identified the structural components and density with magittech sensors (are we thinking about this too much?)
Skarbrand can charge a Hemlock Wraithfighter, miss all of his attacks, but the Hemlock automatically dies in its next movement phase. It cannot fall back (Skarbrand rule), and since it cannot move its minimum distance, it is slain.
So in essence, Skarbrand leaps at a supersonic vechile, gets pancaked after eating nasty overwatch, puts up a potato in combat, but gets the kill because reasons.
Marmatag wrote: Skarbrand can charge a Hemlock Wraithfighter, miss all of his attacks, but the Hemlock automatically dies in its next movement phase. It cannot fall back (Skarbrand rule), and since it cannot move its minimum distance, it is slain.
So in essence, Skarbrand leaps at a supersonic vechile, gets pancaked after eating nasty overwatch, puts up a potato in combat, but gets the kill because reasons.
He can't charge a Hemlock since he has no Fly keyword
SKARBRAND HATES FLYERS. SKARBRAND'S NO FALLING BACK AURA EXTENDS EIGHT INCHES FROM SKARBRAND. SKARBRAND THUS MIGHT CAUSE HATED FLYERS TO CRASH IF YOU CHARGE THEM WITH A DIFFERENT UNIT THAT CAN FLY.
(Disclaimer: This is a reference to "If the Emperor had a Text-To-Speech device, it is intended to be humorous.)
I find it funny how ork missile launchers are more reliable damage-wise compared to imperial ones, I mean wouldn't it make more sense/be fluffy for ork anti-armor to be the ones with randomized damage?
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
But, not being able to fail at it?
I mean, why build siege engines at all?
Why bulldozers and shaped charges?
Just build moar gigantic metal men...
p5freak wrote: The knight needs a few turns to kill this fortress with his titanic feet, or his ranged weapons. One successful attack with his hand, and 1CP, and the entire fortress is pretty much instantly destroyed, in 1 turn. Thats whats comical.
I don't know, it's not like he can step high enough to crush a building quickly, but tearing out a structural support and letting the building implode sounds fair.
Ok sorry, i didnt know knight pilots are also engineers who know weak points of fortresses, or any other fortification. Poor imperial fists are now useless, knights will do the job of tearing down fortifications. Will they find new jobs at the employment center ? Are we going to see poor imperial fists selling their power armor to buy food ?
Its possible that a knights needs more time killing an ogryn than an imperial bunker with his death grip, which makes perfect sense. Steel and concrete is much easier to break than flesh and bones.
masterhobo wrote: I find it funny how ork missile launchers are more reliable damage-wise compared to imperial ones, I mean wouldn't it make more sense/be fluffy for ork anti-armor to be the ones with randomized damage?
Woz dat? U wan orkses to rawl more dice?
No thanks, here's a snippet of a round of shooting from Ork Tankbustas
5+ to hit
- Rerolling failed hits
6+ to hit generates an extra attack
- Rerolling failed hits
4+ to wound
Rolling for damage
- Death Skullz reroll
That's up to a total of 7! dice rolled per shot of a tank busta, not including throwing grenades (Which is 1d6*8 rolls) and also not including the following assault phase.
masterhobo wrote: I find it funny how ork missile launchers are more reliable damage-wise compared to imperial ones, I mean wouldn't it make more sense/be fluffy for ork anti-armor to be the ones with randomized damage?
Woz dat? U wan orkses to rawl more dice?
No thanks, here's a snippet of a round of shooting from Ork Tankbustas
5+ to hit
- Rerolling failed hits
6+ to hit generates an extra attack
- Rerolling failed hits
4+ to wound
Rolling for damage
- Death Skullz reroll
That's up to a total of 7! dice rolled per shot of a tank busta, not including throwing grenades (Which is 1d6*8 rolls) and also not including the following assault phase.
Oh haha didnt know it was that bad, just thought it would be fluffy for the orks to have the randomized damage.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
But that it cannot fail to do so...?
I mean, why would it fail? Forgot to turn on the matter disintegration field or something?
You don't think it's bit weird that knights are better at doing job what proved hard for titans(cracking down walls of Terra during HH)? Why send in titans to crack open walls when single knight could have wrecked instantly the wall.
Actually, ork rokkits are quite famous for causing massive explosions without breaking through armor first, while missile launchers of the imperium and chaos work more like modern missiles, trying to penetrate armor and explode inside.
Orks simply do explosions better than the IoM.
From a game point of view, random damage on rokkits would add another point of failure to an already highly unreliable weapon - which is our primary way to handle enemy high toughness models. We do not have the choice between missiles, lascannons, multi-melta and plasma to kill vehicles and monsters.
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tneva82 wrote: You don't think it's bit weird that knights are better at doing job what proved hard for titans(cracking down walls of Terra during HH)? Why send in titans to crack open walls when single knight could have wrecked instantly the wall.
Unless I'm mistaken, we do not have the strength value for the wall of Terra during HH.
For any fortification we do have a strength value for, it seems plausible that you a knight could just grab inside and crush the power-source to have it blow up.
p5freak wrote: Time to continue. An imperial knight can use his thunderstrike gauntlet to squish a fortress of redemption (or any other fortification) like its pudding, using the deathgrip stratagem. The knights rolls a D6 and adds his strength, which is 8, the result is minimum 9. The fortress rolls a D6 and adds its strength, which is 0, highest possible result is 6. The knight wins every dice roll contest and reduces the fortress of redemption to a pile of ash.
To me, this is more epic than comical. The idea of a Knight ripping the support cornerstone out of a Fortress sounds awesome.
But that it cannot fail to do so...?
I mean, why would it fail? Forgot to turn on the matter disintegration field or something?
You don't think it's bit weird that knights are better at doing job what proved hard for titans(cracking down walls of Terra during HH)? Why send in titans to crack open walls when single knight could have wrecked instantly the wall.
Because fortifications in modern 40k aren't kilometer thick walls bristling with guns able to crack a titan in half and full of more infantry (and all of THEIR guns) than most modern cities? I mean, void shields are way better than a knight's energy shield at soaking up that kind of firepower.
A void shield generator provides a 5+ invsv 6" bubble, a knight also has a 5+ invsv, and he can also provide a 5+ invsv 6" bubble. Where is the void shield better ?
A VOSTROYAN Master of Ordnance, can be ordered to fire his artillery barrage at a unit in close combat with him - and he won't get hit at all. That's some very accurate fire control.
p5freak wrote: A void shield generator provides a 5+ invsv 6" bubble, a knight also has a 5+ invsv, and he can also provide a 5+ invsv 6" bubble. Where is the void shield better ?
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
I feel like people are just stretching too hard about how silly the idea of ripping a chunk of a building out and having it collapse is. I mean this is a game which is an abstraction of a fictional scenario where the standard issue weapon of several factions is effectively a .75cal grenade launcher.
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Kcalehc wrote: A VOSTROYAN Master of Ordnance, can be ordered to fire his artillery barrage at a unit in close combat with him - and he won't get hit at all. That's some very accurate fire control.
It's the fancy hats that make them such good shots.
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
A void shield generator cannot negate mortal wounds.
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
A void shield generator cannot negate mortal wounds.
You might want to go look at Titan Void Shields which specifically can be used against mortal wounds.
Khorne: I see my followers reap a great tally of skulls from your followers Tzeentch!
Tzeentch: Aha, but is that because your champions are so skilled or perhaps my sorcerer has a plan?
Khorne: Nay! Tis by the roar of their chainaxes that they... Wait, what are your men doing?! By Us Tzeentch your troops flee!
Tzeentch: Okay, that's new. I'm sure it's a feigned retreat...
Nurgle: Hor-hor-hor! Look closer my brothers, the players have editioned up!
Khorne: What is that? Let me get my glasses... 8th Edition? When did that happen?
Slaanesh: You wanna borrow my copy? I've already read it, my dudes get...
Khorne: We don't care what your stupid Noise Marines get, sod off. Don't you have a Forgefiend to degrade?
Slaanesh: Aw man!
Tzeentch: Leave the book!
Khorne: Nurgle, you read it for us. You don't mind whatever goo that is that that thing excretes.
Nurgle: It actually tastes good with a little snot... Anyways here we go. Cult troops, should be under Troops, whoops nope, elites. Pg 22, let's see here...
Tzeentch: Just skip to the USR part.
Nurgle: It's actually way different guys... Wow look at all the cool stuff my dudes get! Plague Belcher, hmmm...
Khorne: The USRs! Check the USR section!
Nurgle:. It's not there! They're just these funny sheets!
Tzeentch: Look, there at the bottom!
Nurgle: Oh my that's handy, they have the rule printed right there next to the unit! Hmmm, very good. Disgustingly Resilient? Nice. Your dudes attack twice Khorne!
Khorne: Decent!
Tzeentch: Fearless! What about Fearless?
Nurgle: I'm looking, it's not here! It's not anywhere!
Khorne: That's gak. I'm going to write a letter.
Nurgle: Music of the Apocalypse... Wow, look at this. It's really good.
An Ork Nob barely a few years old with a Kustom shoota is theoretically able to kill a multi-millennium old Eldar Warlock/Farseer/Autarch in a single round of shooting, while a 10,000+ year old genetically perfected super-super-human Custodes Shield Captain literally can't hit the dude.
Reasoning: The new "Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!" rule in the Ork codex: Assuming the Kustom shoota remains Assault 4, the Ork Nob can theoretically get 8 hits, wounds and failed saves since no matter the negative modifiers, 6s will hit. Even when the Warlock/Farseer/Autarch stacks -5 to hit (-1 for Alaitoc, -1 Conceal power, -1 Wounded by Barroth, -1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem, -1 Shiftshroud/Shimmerplume).
Meanwhile, Captain-General Trajann Valoris himself will shoot the very same Warlock/Farseer/Autarch and be literally incapable of hitting it.
When you fill the air with bullets (which I always assume every die we roll to be a grouping of shots for most weapons that aren't explicitly single fire meaning the Ork is literally filling the air with bullets) you can hit anything by pure probability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guess I should have pointed out that "quantity is a quality all it's own" which used to be the mantra of Orks back in 5th for people I knew who played them.
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
A void shield generator cannot negate mortal wounds.
You might want to go look at Titan Void Shields which specifically can be used against mortal wounds.
Please read what i wrote. Did i write titan void shields, or did i write void shield generator ??
BaconCatBug wrote: An Ork Nob barely a few years old with a Kustom shoota is theoretically able to kill a multi-millennium old Eldar Warlock/Farseer/Autarch in a single round of shooting, while a 10,000+ year old genetically perfected super-super-human Custodes Shield Captain literally can't hit the dude.
Reasoning: The new "Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!" rule in the Ork codex:
Assuming the Kustom shoota remains Assault 4, the Ork Nob can theoretically get 8 hits, wounds and failed saves since no matter the negative modifiers, 6s will hit. Even when the Warlock/Farseer/Autarch stacks -5 to hit (-1 for Alaitoc, -1 Conceal power, -1 Wounded by Barroth, -1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem, -1 Shiftshroud/Shimmerplume).
Meanwhile, Captain-General Trajann Valoris himself will shoot the very same Warlock/Farseer/Autarch and be literally incapable of hitting it.
Oh no, there is a 0.0000001448% chance that the super-elf can't dodge all of the completely randomly fired shots of a nob while being able to predict where a trained soilder will shoot in a completely unrealistic scenario. 40k is RUINED.
BaconCatBug wrote: An Ork Nob barely a few years old with a Kustom shoota is theoretically able to kill a multi-millennium old Eldar Warlock/Farseer/Autarch in a single round of shooting, while a 10,000+ year old genetically perfected super-super-human Custodes Shield Captain literally can't hit the dude.
Reasoning: The new "Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!" rule in the Ork codex:
Assuming the Kustom shoota remains Assault 4, the Ork Nob can theoretically get 8 hits, wounds and failed saves since no matter the negative modifiers, 6s will hit. Even when the Warlock/Farseer/Autarch stacks -5 to hit (-1 for Alaitoc, -1 Conceal power, -1 Wounded by Barroth, -1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem, -1 Shiftshroud/Shimmerplume).
Meanwhile, Captain-General Trajann Valoris himself will shoot the very same Warlock/Farseer/Autarch and be literally incapable of hitting it.
Oh no, there is a 0.0000001448% chance that the super-elf can't dodge all of the completely randomly fired shots of a nob while being able to predict where a trained soilder will shoot in a completely unrealistic scenario. 40k is RUINED.
And yes, that's the actual chance.
Custodes just suck at being random, deal with it.
More to the point the super-elf just shouldn't be able to stack all the -1 to hit BS to -3 or worse.
You have decimated the enemy down to a single grot and drowned them in their own blood while your losses are minor. However, because of that lone single grot hiding in the ruin with a shiny object, something his (now dead) comrades (slavers) called a "Rehlick", which he cannot even understand, YOU LOSE THE GAME!
The enemy cannot score Objective Cards and his scored Objective Cards are meaningless if you wipe all his models off the table.
"Overwatch? That's like a free shooting phase for us!" Orks in general.
Guardsmen are rational. They would disobey if the order is completely suicidal, thus we must have commissars to remind them of their duty. Fire Warriors don't need no stinking supervisor. An Ethereal wants them to die? "Here I go to die, boss," said the Fire Warrior.
A Chainsword is no more powerful than a kitchen knife.
Having 2 pistols is better than a Chainsword and a pistol.
Conscripts are cannon fodder. They feed the enemy to the big bad tanks looming behind them.
Note: this thread is about the humorous disconnect between logic and some rules in the game. Most of us are well aware that some of these rules are unrealistic to facilitate playing a tabletop game, and so these are not necessarily gripes about the game itself, simply
-Space marine biology apparently differs enough between chapters that an apothecary from one chapter is of no help to another chapter.
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
-A single squad that is under the threat of being charged by multiple enemies can fire several times faster than normal, which begs the question of why they don't bother attempting those extra free shots all the time?
1) It does really differes from Chapter to Chapter. Salamanders and Imperial Fists, for example.
2) Read the rules properly before doing jokes about them. Excessive damage doesn't "spill" on other models and lost.
3) Coz it is overwatch. They litteraly waving their guns like maniacs, trying to hit someting without aiming.
niv-mizzet wrote: -A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
2) Read the rules properly before doing jokes about them. Excessive damage doesn't "spill" on other models and lost.
Read the thread properly before being snarky - as was clarified, if required, the OP was referring to things like Nurglings and Rippers, where a swarm base is made up of multiple smaller creatures, yet one AT weapon can somehow kill enough of them to eliminate the base.
You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
A void shield generator cannot negate mortal wounds.
You might want to go look at Titan Void Shields which specifically can be used against mortal wounds.
Please read what i wrote. Did i write titan void shields, or did i write void shield generator ??
Apparently you ignored the context of what I was writing then. I was talking about why you might use a massive titan to break the walls of the Imperial Palace and how it's void shields were better than the shields on a Knight and you go of to talk about an irrelevant terrain piece so I corrected the idea by pointing out that the titans would be able to deflect things that would cause mortal wounds.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot.
You could argue that instead of breaking due to fear the squad makes a tactical retreat dragging their wounded and dead behind them.
Void shields can also negate mortal wounds and the model under said shield has a lot more wounds to tank with if we want to get into game mechanics instead of just lore on why you'd use a titan instead.
A void shield generator cannot negate mortal wounds.
You might want to go look at Titan Void Shields which specifically can be used against mortal wounds.
Please read what i wrote. Did i write titan void shields, or did i write void shield generator ??
Apparently you ignored the context of what I was writing then. I was talking about why you might use a massive titan to break the walls of the Imperial Palace and how it's void shields were better than the shields on a Knight and you go of to talk about an irrelevant terrain piece so I corrected the idea by pointing out that the titans would be able to deflect things that would cause mortal wounds.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot.
You could argue that instead of breaking due to fear the squad makes a tactical retreat dragging their wounded and dead behind them.
You could argue anything in defence of that rule, you'll be hard pressed to find a valid one.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You could argue anything in defence of that rule, you'll be hard pressed to find a valid one.
Point is that the reason a model may bail on the table isn't limited to fear, it could be to try and save their comrades over continuing to fight to the death, or to retreat with tactical information for a supporting force. It's a stat that could represent any number of things but is given a simple term because it needs to be standard across the game to work properly.
Also the game doesn't need 90% of the armies out their ignoring core mechanics 100% of the time (like Marines who somehow couldn't be wiped despite staying locked in combat to continue fighting could actually cause you to be overwhelmed more easily instead of breaking off to try and gain a tactical position to launch a counter attack from). It fundamentally broke the game and made a lot of rules basically pointless.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.
It wasn't intended for comedy, the people that came up with this did it because they don't like long games, pure and simple. you can say they desert or stop fighting, but the only rational explanation is stabbing themselves in the face. 7th they stopped fighting and found a hole to hide in. They'd have to use humour to justify such a stupid rule. Maybe they have vortex grenades attached to string with a weight at the end, they fling it towards the enemy, so when they run away they fall into the warp, in doing so deterring fleeing. Now that's a realistic justification.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.
It wasn't intended for comedy, the people that came up with this did it because they don't like long games, pure and simple. you can say they desert or stop fighting, but the only rational explanation is stabbing themselves in the face. 7th they stopped fighting and found a hole to hide in. They'd have to use humour to justify such a stupid rule. Maybe they have vortex grenades attached to string with a weight at the end, they fling it towards the enemy, so when they run away they fall into the warp. Now that's a realistic justification.
Holy crap. I found someone who liked 7th ed. Let's take this discussion into PM or a separate thread - we are way off the '8th edition rules comedy' topic now.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.
It wasn't intended for comedy, the people that came up with this did it because they don't like long games, pure and simple. you can say they desert or stop fighting, but the only rational explanation is stabbing themselves in the face. 7th they stopped fighting and found a hole to hide in. They'd have to use humour to justify such a stupid rule. Maybe they have vortex grenades attached to string with a weight at the end, they fling it towards the enemy, so when they run away they fall into the warp. Now that's a realistic justification.
Holy crap. I found someone who liked 7th ed. Let's take this discussion into PM or a separate thread - we are way off the '8th edition rules comedy' topic now.
I didn't say anything of the kind, I merely stated a fact. I prefer 8th, even though it has serious problems.
While being the only niche for Rough Riders right now, I find it rather funny that a Knight can walk over Infantry models, but not over a dude on a horse (especially since a horse tends to be smart enough to not want to get stepped on and would naturally get out of the way).
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism.
The game would be more interesting with moral(s) playing a part. How does an Eldar squad that believes all killing is wrong cope on the battlefield, for example? Or Slaaneshi daemons facing a unit of Guardsmen who've decided on abstinence.
As it is, I suspect what you have an issue with is the morale rules.
A Chainsword is no more powerful than a kitchen knife.
A Chainsword grants an extra attack in close combat. A generic ccw, like a kitchen knife, doesn't.
I think bibotot is comparing a Chainsword to the Scout Combat Knife, as they have the same rules. Having said that, I'd compare the Combat Knife to a machete more than a kitchen knife.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
Losing models is more or less the point of the game, and a model removed is simply combat ineffective, are you going to throw hundreds of years of training away because brother bother is stuck in his armor because the power cell blew out or are you going to leave someone to guard him while the rest advance?
That said, I'm not too fussed about going back to the old 'run away!' or 'die horribly!' results of failing morale tests, make close combat useful again when a squad breaks and you just destroy the thing. Suddenly conscripts not quite such the problem for anyone with enough chainswords to break them.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism.
The game would be more interesting with moral(s) playing a part. How does an Eldar squad that believes all killing is wrong cope on the battlefield, for example? Or Slaaneshi daemons facing a unit of Guardsmen who've decided on abstinence.
As it is, I suspect what you have an issue with is the morale rules.
A Chainsword is no more powerful than a kitchen knife.
A Chainsword grants an extra attack in close combat. A generic ccw, like a kitchen knife, doesn't.
I think bibotot is comparing a Chainsword to the Scout Combat Knife, as they have the same rules. Having said that, I'd compare the Combat Knife to a machete more than a kitchen knife.
Its obviously a spelling mistake, don't be obtuse.
Kcalehc wrote: A VOSTROYAN Master of Ordnance, can be ordered to fire his artillery barrage at a unit in close combat with him - and he won't get hit at all. That's some very accurate fire control.
He's pointing it at their chin and hitting his targets on the way up like a boss
niv-mizzet wrote: -A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!
2) Read the rules properly before doing jokes about them. Excessive damage doesn't "spill" on other models and lost.
Read the thread properly before being snarky - as was clarified, if required, the OP was referring to things like Nurglings and Rippers, where a swarm base is made up of multiple smaller creatures, yet one AT weapon can somehow kill enough of them to eliminate the base.
People seem to have a hard time grasping that when I said “swarm,” I literally meant “swarm,” and not just any old horde of enemies.
40 Cultists stasnd in a lin abreast, thump warspears and autoguns. As their line advancing Seargent Angrymarine cooly fires at the closet cultist. The shot hits dead center, but the cultist in unharmed. Instead there is a cry and spray of blood down the battlefield as a cultists well out of range dies from that same bolt shell.
Flustered Sgt. Angrymarine fires again and again the nearby cultist is unharmed but the rearmost cultist explodes, worse still, their corpse appears in front of the first cultist!
"Damn Warp." Seargent Angrymarine mumbles as he prepares to kill the 37 other cultists but shooting this first one.
Warhammer is the only universe where standing in the back of the massive charge is more dangerous than being in front
40 Cultists stasnd in a lin abreast, thump warspears and autoguns. As their line advancing Seargent Angrymarine cooly fires at the closet cultist. The shot hits dead center, but the cultist in unharmed. Instead there is a cry and spray of blood down the battlefield as a cultists well out of range dies from that same bolt shell.
Flustered Sgt. Angrymarine fires again and again the nearby cultist is unharmed but the rearmost cultist explodes, worse still, their corpse appears in front of the first cultist!
"Damn Warp." Seargent Angrymarine mumbles as he prepares to kill the 37 other cultists but shooting this first one.
Warhammer is the only universe where standing in the back of the massive charge is more dangerous than being in front
A Chainsword is no more powerful than a kitchen knife.
Having 2 pistols is better than a Chainsword and a pistol.
Assuming the kitchen knife is also USER/0/1, then yes, but the chainsword gives you a bonus attack so on a 1 attack model it's effectively twice as powerful as a kitchen knife!
How is two pistols better than a chainsword and pistol? You have one less attack in combat every turn, while the extra pistol shot only happens in your own turn, so you have less attacks. Pistols would be better if you were permanently 12" away from the enemy and never in combat but... if you're doing that, then get a bolter instead, right?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.
8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.
I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.
It wasn't intended for comedy, the people that came up with this did it because they don't like long games, pure and simple. you can say they desert or stop fighting, but the only rational explanation is stabbing themselves in the face. 7th they stopped fighting and found a hole to hide in. They'd have to use humour to justify such a stupid rule. Maybe they have vortex grenades attached to string with a weight at the end, they fling it towards the enemy, so when they run away they fall into the warp, in doing so deterring fleeing. Now that's a realistic justification.
It's an abstract rule and you're putting your own specific definition to it that you personally don't like.
Most armies who are likely to break to morale and lose models, are from the "normal puny humanoids with basic training" camp, where getting scared and running away when a carnifex has just crushed all your squadmates into a bloody pulp is perfectly acceptable. In the case of space marines, when a carnifex has crushed your entire squad and you're the last guy left, then it's also acceptable for you to decide it's best to grab whats left of your half-dead brother and drag him off the battlefield in the hope of putting him in a dreadnought or something. Space Marines might be (relatively) fearless, but they aren't stupid or suicidal.
You wan't them to be totally immune to morale effects, which is not only totally breaking with the fluff, but also means that all the armies that rely on leadership manipulation would automatically lose against any space marine faction. The Imperium already have enough mary-sue advantages, they don't need any more.
A dreadnought that has been around since just after the Horus Heresy, can have enough -1 to hit stacked upon it that it misses, where as an Ork boy not only always hits on a 6, but gets a an additional shot.
So much for thousands of years of experience, should have just pulled her trigger harder and longer.
A natural 6 should always be a hit, regardless of the number of modifiers.
Your army has achieved their objectives of blowing up enemy outposts, slaying a warlord, and killing the first “unit” of enemies during the battle, or following whatever other crazy maelstrom of orders high command has sent down, racking up a huge lead in “victory points.” It has been costly though, and the army is decimated.
-If every soldier in the army falls, even at the last moment, it has all been for naught and the enemy claims a complete victory despite the key losses they took on objectives they needed to defend.
-On the other hand, a single scout hiding in some ruins in the back corner of his army’s original deployment zone, not interacting or resisting the enemy’s advance in the slightest, may claim a massive victory for his side should he live long enough!
stonehorse wrote: A dreadnought that has been around since just after the Horus Heresy, can have enough -1 to hit stacked upon it that it misses, where as an Ork boy not only always hits on a 6, but gets a an additional shot.
So much for thousands of years of experience, should have just pulled her trigger harder and longer.
A natural 6 should always be a hit, regardless of the number of modifiers.
"Mimimi, orks have a 2.7% higher chance to hit something than my SPEESSSS MUHREEENS in a completely unlikely scenario."
Cruising toward combat... If a human in full kit can run about 10 miles per hour, that means the maximum speed of Space Marine Bikes is about 22mph
Gunpowder is hard to come by in 41000 AE... Most weapons in the Grimdark Future have an effective range under 100 meters, meaning that 21st century rifles have a significant range advantage over their 41st century counterparts...
He just keeps shouting 'don't lick the barrel' over and over... Space Marine Commanders not only encourage their subordinates to shoot more accurately, but also convince their plasma weapons to explode less often
Wounding in Reverse Due to the way attacks are resolved in Warhammer 40,00 you actually determine if the round was strong enough to damage the internal structure of the target, then if the round penetrated the armor, than if the round penetrated any surrounding shields or force fields. This means a lot of weapon shots are retroactively determined not to have penetrated after it is determined that it hit with sufficient force to cause major damage.
It's all the helium they swallow before battle In game, Supersonic fighters are often unable to achieve enough altitude to put them beyond sword swinging range of men with jump packs.
Don't fire until you see the white of their eyes! Like many miniature games, almost all field artillery is so short ranged that most can't be trusted to shoot beyond 150 meters and often have to be placed directly on the battlefield to have an effect.
An artillery piece on the table by itself with no spotter available firing blind at a target it has no line of sight to is just as accurate as that same artillery piece firing directly at a target over open sights.
barboggo wrote: Can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince flying at me because of "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist standing in front of it!
Can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince in front of you because of the "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist hiding on the other side of a shed behind you. Worse, can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince five feet from you because of the "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist hiding on the other side of a wall 24 foot and 11 inches away from a guy in your unit at the other end of a 20 foot skirmish line.
A tallyman, a biologous putrefier, a noxious blightbringer, a foul blightspawn, a plague surgeon and plague marine champion walk into a bar.
(for those unfamiliar with the models: all of them are plague marines which only differ in wargear)
The Ultramarine barkeeper leans over to them and asks them what they want to drink. He comes within 3" and not only get's a whiff of Death Guard No.7, but suddenly five of them heroically yell "Death to the False Emperor" and clobber the barkeeper to death. Just the plague marine champion is still sitting at the bar and has no clue what's going on.
Moral: Accountants, cooks, musicians, house cleaners and doctors are more heroic than the only guy in the legion who is allowed to use a powerfist.
While not a problem in 8th, I often find my DG characters outnumbering the my plague marines in certain situations - suddenly all the support characters run off to make heroic interventions, leaving the guys who actually brought knives to the knife fight behind.
To be fair, the vast majority of RAW "problems" stem from people being overly anal with some wordings. Most of the time, it's perfectly clear how the game is supposed to work, since alternative interpretation lead to a broken game or obviously unintended side-effects. Best example of this is the "What's an aura?" discussion.
The whole RAW vs RAI things comes from times when rules could be read in two or even three ways, that all could be played without breaking the game. In 5th edition, just the ork codex had more RAW problems than the entire 8th edition. Actual RAW problems.
Give GW a break guys, they've only had FOUR DECADES to get it right. And you most certainly can play the game RAW. Only two situations where the RaW breaks this time around, so you can avoid them easily.
The main problem is people not liking what the RaW says, thus throwing a tantrum about RaI when the game doesn't go their way. I personally vehemently hate the idea of re-rolls before modifiers, it's stupid and unintuitive. Do I screech about it from the rooftops and demand that we play modifiers before re-rolls? Of course not, because I play games by their rules. That's the entire point of a board game.
BaconCatBug wrote: Give GW a break guys, they've only had FOUR DECADES to get it right. And you most certainly can play the game RAW. Only two situations where the RaW breaks this time around, so you can avoid them easily.
The main problem is people not liking what the RaW says, thus throwing a tantrum about RaI when the game doesn't go their way. I personally vehemently hate the idea of re-rolls before modifiers, it's stupid and unintuitive. Do I screech about it from the rooftops and demand that we play modifiers before re-rolls? Of course not, because I play games by their rules. That's the entire point of a board game.
Damn it, I should have known BCB appears when you say "RAW" three times
But luckily he brought his signature, which I can use as an example:
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy´ - Technically right, while it's clear from context and examples that you can, since that's the whole point of the assault and pistol type
"minimum" ranges don't work, - Again, while GW failed to tell us to check minimum ranges, there are no rules needed to understand how it is supposed to work
Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll - One more issue where GW stumbled over not being able to create a proper modifier&re-roll framework, but there is little reason to contest that GW actually doesn't want to re-roll successful saves.
the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit - This is an actual issue, since there is no rule to handle the situation. Killing off one model first is valid RAI, as is spreading the wounds around 5th edition style. The main reason for this problem is lazy index writing, where they gave weapons that deal mortal wounds to their wielder to multi-wound models.
the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously - Another one of those. GW failed to implement a mechanism for hitting multiple units at once with a spell. Either provide rules, or don't provide spells that do this.
Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields - Considering it's Kharn and his axe used to kill him in previous editions... but yeah, the last sentence clearly states that GW didn't intend the rule hit Kharn himself, even if it has no effect RAW.
Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list - I actually found this one odd in your sig. IMO, this is intended and not unclear at all.
Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12" - Another one where we clearly know how it is supposed to work, except GW didn't use the same language on those rules (which is bad, but not unclear).
Spore Mines have an infinite range - Obviously unintended effect of a rule, but RAW works until GW fixes this mess.
Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything - For this rule to break you must assume that "Armor save" != "saving throw". I'd say not even RAW is unclear on this.
only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad - Another one of those where it's perfectly clear that you are supposed to be able to put your own models onto the pad, even if RAW says otherwise.
... I lost interest in continuing this.
So yes, GW has written thousands and thousands of pages of rules, one should think they should get better at it with practice. Still, amount of fethed up rules that are actually unclear and impact games regularly is close to zero.
My 5th edition ork codex had a "clear with opponent before battle"-list written inside the cover:
- Is a deff rolla hull or not?
- Where are the firing arcs or my battlewagon?
- KFF 4+ or 5+ cover?
- Can a nob have a big shoota?
- Can I call Thrakka's Waaagh! during my enemy's turn?
- What happens if a battlewagon is hit by warpstorm and can't turn?
- Do warbikers have 1 or 2 wounds?
- Can a battlewagon bought for a unit of nobz that was made troops by a warboss hold objectives?
All of those were genuinely unclear things that were not answered by RAW.
While GW can and should still get a lot better, they have improved by a lot already.
I see some people missed the point of the thread, so another bit to get back out of the dark caves of rule debates!
-In the history of war, morale has been known as a contagious “domino” effect. A soldier is much more likely to run when he sees his allies already doing so. Not true in the 41st millennium!
A soldier will only become concerned immediately after several squad mates die, taking no notice of the rest of his army being obliterated, and is much less likely to flee if several other squad mates take off first. Through casualties or abandonment, should that soldier become the last remaining squad member on the field, he will suddenly gain unshakable courage for the rest of the battle...or his life, whichever ends first.
-An interesting side note to morale; potentially fleeing soldiers seem to be very conscientious and aware of the situation. The soldier standing in an important spot or with special gear relevant to the battle situation will refuse to retreat until last!
-The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.
niv-mizzet wrote: -The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.
niv-mizzet wrote: -The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.
Nitpick: Deathwatch Veterans can.
So that’s how the DW screens out potential recruits!
niv-mizzet wrote: -The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.
Nitpick: Deathwatch Veterans can.
So that’s how the DW screens out potential recruits!
Nah - we only hire sergeants. In DW, Everyone is a leader*!
*Leader of One. Leadership is best shown by following orders
Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)
This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!
A Kill Team One, with the Take Prisoners scenario:
An Eldar warrior sneaks behind Seargent Brother Bolterfist and hits him with his blade, capturing the vulnerable commander and stuffing him in a giant sack. However, Only In Death Does Duty End and Brother Bolterfist turns around and slams his bolter into the Eldar's skull, forcing him into an identical sack. They then sit inside their respective sacks waiting to be found.
niv-mizzet wrote: Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)
This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!
Wow, that is pants on head dumb. Screening supersonic jet from being assaulted within ground based units.
niv-mizzet wrote: Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)
This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!
Wow, that is pants on head dumb. Screening supersonic jet from being assaulted within ground based units.
Stay classy 40K!
Flyers in general in 40k act kind of weird, this is sort of the newest addition to that weirdness. The inverse has been in place for a while, with two ground-bound units on opposite sides of a supersonic flyer's base being unable to charge each other.
like:
It's easier to hit a supersonic fighter plane while trying to fly after it on a jetpack with a sword than it is for the same guy to shoot at it with his pistol.
It's easier to kill an airplane with a tank mounted flamethrower [that has 0 degrees of gun elevation] than it is with an auto-tracking rapid-firing quad-mounted specialized AA gun.
It's easier to kill a supersonic fighter plane by having a guy fly after it with a jetpack and a big stick than to use an auto-tracking rapid-firing quad-mounted specialized AA gun, or a guided missile.
A VTOL gunship can engage a tank in close quarters combat. How are they fighting each other?
I'm 99% certain that most aircraft can probably not survive multiple repeated direct hits from medium and heavy AA guns and guided missiles, much less the generally absurd pounding they can take on the tabletop from AA guns.
etc.
Like, I'd bet that, of all the strange implications that occur when the abstraction breaks down, flyers probably generate the most of them.
I want to make a 'no one plays soup lists anymore because of Band of Brothers ... oh wait' comment, but GW having that poor of a grasp on how their own game works is more alarming than funny.
The Newman wrote: I want to make a 'no one plays soup lists anymore because of Band of Brothers ... oh wait' comment, but GW having that poor of a grasp on how their own game works is more alarming than funny.
I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
Next up - this actually happened in a game:
A reiver stands on top of a three story building and looks at the nearby tyranids. It'd take a lot of time to climb down, he thinks. Unless..
He points his grapnel launcher at the ground, This will be sooo much faster he thinks...
A reiver stands on top of a three story building and looks at the nearby tyranids. It'd take a lot of time to climb down, he thinks. Unless..
He points his grapnel launcher at the ground, This will be sooo much faster he thinks...
I see no problems with this plan
As I see it in my head, it's the Reiver jumping off the building, and firing the grapnel at the building to slow the fall, or just simply rappelling down with the grapnel.
The Newman wrote: I want to make a 'no one plays soup lists anymore because of Band of Brothers ... oh wait' comment, but GW having that poor of a grasp on how their own game works is more alarming than funny.
I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
Next up - this actually happened in a game:
A reiver stands on top of a three story building and looks at the nearby tyranids. It'd take a lot of time to climb down, he thinks. Unless..
He points his grapnel launcher at the ground, This will be sooo much faster he thinks...
The Newman wrote: I want to make a 'no one plays soup lists anymore because of Band of Brothers ... oh wait' comment, but GW having that poor of a grasp on how their own game works is more alarming than funny.
I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
Well, I did read their review of the new FAQ where they declared "Soup is off the menu because Band of Brothers is now permanent" and laughed at how stupid that was for a moment.
A Reiver and an Assault Marine are standing on one side of a 10" thick, 13" tall wall running the length of the board.
The Reiver can travel to the top of the wall and walk around.
The Assault Marine can never reach the top of the wall, but can cross to the other side.
Bharring wrote: At least the way they killed Allies was carefully crafted to allow fluffy Ynnari lists!
Well, it did take a specific, targetted FAQ for Ynnari to adjust them to work in a fluffy manor post-FAQ.
Or, at least it will, once they completely rewrite Ynnari fluff to match their post-Battle Brothers rules...
What Ynnari need is just a big Wombo-combo codex where the datasheets are reprinted with the correct rules and keywords swapped out, for each datasheet they can take (so basically no Special Characters other than Ynnari ones) from the DE, CWE and Clown codex.
Then again, the Rule of 3 would mean they could basically spam 6 Dark Reapers again, so who knows anymore.
Sometimes I think that someone at the GWHQ plays eldar and just writes their rules to have fun himself and blow up every other army out there. The other stuff GW makes, that ends up OP or very bad, seems to be made super random. Stuff like eldar soups on the other hand fit so nice, both with synergies and points costs, that it almost feels as if one or two dudes sat down durning writing of all eldar books and first made a list or two they may want to play, and then made all the books around that stuff. But maybe am just paranoid.
Bharring wrote: At least the way they killed Allies was carefully crafted to allow fluffy Ynnari lists!
Well, it did take a specific, targetted FAQ for Ynnari to adjust them to work in a fluffy manor post-FAQ.
Or, at least it will, once they completely rewrite Ynnari fluff to match their post-Battle Brothers rules...
What Ynnari need is just a big Wombo-combo codex where the datasheets are reprinted with the correct rules and keywords swapped out, for each datasheet they can take (so basically no Special Characters other than Ynnari ones) from the DE, CWE and Clown codex.
Then again, the Rule of 3 would mean they could basically spam 6 Dark Reapers again, so who knows anymore.
You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
Jidmah wrote: You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
That is incorrect. As long as they are different datasheets they don't stack against each other. For example, I can take 3 tech priests from the imperial guard codex, and run them with 3 tech priests from the mechanicus codex because they are two seperate datasheets in two separate codices, with two separate keywords, taking up two separate force org slots. Them having the same name+equipment+stats+abilities+models is irrelevant.
GW still hasnt clarified what exactly they mean with the rule of three. Right now i can field 9 predators, three from codex BA, three from codex DA, and three from codex SM, because they have different keywords, thus they arent the same datasheet. The same datasheet would be an exact copy, word for word, which isnt the case.
p5freak wrote: GW still hasnt clarified what exactly they mean with the rule of three. Right now i can field 9 predators, three from codex BA, three from codex DA, and three from codex SM, because they have different keywords, thus they arent the same datasheet. The same datasheet would be an exact copy, word for word, which isnt the case.
Then again with strategems same name=same strategem even if rules are different.
GW really needs to clarify it what counts as same datasheet.
Bharring wrote: At least the way they killed Allies was carefully crafted to allow fluffy Ynnari lists!
Well, it did take a specific, targetted FAQ for Ynnari to adjust them to work in a fluffy manor post-FAQ.
Or, at least it will, once they completely rewrite Ynnari fluff to match their post-Battle Brothers rules...
What Ynnari need is just a big Wombo-combo codex where the datasheets are reprinted with the correct rules and keywords swapped out, for each datasheet they can take (so basically no Special Characters other than Ynnari ones) from the DE, CWE and Clown codex.
Then again, the Rule of 3 would mean they could basically spam 6 Dark Reapers again, so who knows anymore.
You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
Except they did an Errata for the Big Rule Book.
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos
Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet
from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of
Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all
considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised
Events guidelines?
A3) Yes.
Bharring wrote: At least the way they killed Allies was carefully crafted to allow fluffy Ynnari lists!
Well, it did take a specific, targetted FAQ for Ynnari to adjust them to work in a fluffy manor post-FAQ.
Or, at least it will, once they completely rewrite Ynnari fluff to match their post-Battle Brothers rules...
What Ynnari need is just a big Wombo-combo codex where the datasheets are reprinted with the correct rules and keywords swapped out, for each datasheet they can take (so basically no Special Characters other than Ynnari ones) from the DE, CWE and Clown codex.
Then again, the Rule of 3 would mean they could basically spam 6 Dark Reapers again, so who knows anymore.
You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
Except they did an Errata for the Big Rule Book.
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos
Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet
from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of
Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all
considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised
Events guidelines?
A3) Yes.
So yes. You can have 9 demon princes.
Except those four datasheets have different names:
Daemon Prince (Codex CSM)
Daemon Prince of Chaos (Codex Chaos Daemons)
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (Codex DG)
Daemon Prince of Tzeench (Codex TS)
Bharring wrote: At least the way they killed Allies was carefully crafted to allow fluffy Ynnari lists!
Well, it did take a specific, targetted FAQ for Ynnari to adjust them to work in a fluffy manor post-FAQ.
Or, at least it will, once they completely rewrite Ynnari fluff to match their post-Battle Brothers rules...
What Ynnari need is just a big Wombo-combo codex where the datasheets are reprinted with the correct rules and keywords swapped out, for each datasheet they can take (so basically no Special Characters other than Ynnari ones) from the DE, CWE and Clown codex.
Then again, the Rule of 3 would mean they could basically spam 6 Dark Reapers again, so who knows anymore.
You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
Except they did an Errata for the Big Rule Book.
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos
Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet
from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of
Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all
considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised
Events guidelines?
A3) Yes.
So yes. You can have 9 demon princes.
Except those four datasheets have different names:
Daemon Prince (Codex CSM)
Daemon Prince of Chaos (Codex Chaos Daemons)
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (Codex DG)
Daemon Prince of Tzeench (Codex TS)
If anything, this proves my point.
Fair enough. Just wanted to clarify that Chaos Marines fully endorse the flying circus. Now all they need to do is grab some Dakkafexes and they would have an army!
Jidmah wrote: You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
That is incorrect. As long as they are different datasheets they don't stack against each other. For example, I can take 3 tech priests from the imperial guard codex, and run them with 3 tech priests from the mechanicus codex because they are two seperate datasheets in two separate codices, with two separate keywords, taking up two separate force org slots. Them having the same name+equipment+stats+abilities+models is irrelevant.
If the datasheet says "Predator" then you can only have 3 of them, doesn't matter if you try and take them from the Vanilla codex or the Blood Angel codex. So you can't take:
3x Vanilla Predators
3x Blood Angel Predators
However, you -can- take:
3x Predators
3x Baal Predators
Because Baal predators are a different datasheet entry.
Edit: Tech Priests are a slightly odd one, as they are the same data sheet, but they're in a different force org slot? Under the current rules, you can still only have 3 of them, as they don't distinguish between force org slots just the actual datasheet entry. But it's a definite grey area as I don't think any other unit has this problem. For everything else, it's pretty straightforward.
Jidmah wrote: You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
That is incorrect. As long as they are different datasheets they don't stack against each other. For example, I can take 3 tech priests from the imperial guard codex, and run them with 3 tech priests from the mechanicus codex because they are two seperate datasheets in two separate codices, with two separate keywords, taking up two separate force org slots. Them having the same name+equipment+stats+abilities+models is irrelevant.
If the datasheet says "Predator" then you can only have 3 of them, doesn't matter if you try and take them from the Vanilla codex or the Blood Angel codex. So you can't take:
3x Vanilla Predators
3x Blood Angel Predators
However, you -can- take:
3x Predators
3x Baal Predators
Because Baal predators are a different datasheet entry.
Edit: Tech Priests are a slightly odd one, as they are the same data sheet, but they're in a different force org slot? Under the current rules, you can still only have 3 of them, as they don't distinguish between force org slots just the actual datasheet entry. But it's a definite grey area as I don't think any other unit has this problem. For everything else, it's pretty straightforward.
Can you show me in the "Rule of three" where it says you use only the name to determine if it's the same datasheet? Because afaik the rule says no such thing. It only says "same datasheet." If Datasheet A has the <CHAPTER> Keyword, and Datasheet B doesn't have the <CHAPTER> keyword, then even if literally every other letter is identical, they are, by definition, not the same Datasheet.
Jidmah wrote: You cannot field more of than three datasheets with the same name, even if the content differs. For example, you can't field nine predators, even if you take them from codex CSM, DG and TS.
That is incorrect. As long as they are different datasheets they don't stack against each other. For example, I can take 3 tech priests from the imperial guard codex, and run them with 3 tech priests from the mechanicus codex because they are two seperate datasheets in two separate codices, with two separate keywords, taking up two separate force org slots. Them having the same name+equipment+stats+abilities+models is irrelevant.
If the datasheet says "Predator" then you can only have 3 of them, doesn't matter if you try and take them from the Vanilla codex or the Blood Angel codex. So you can't take:
3x Vanilla Predators
3x Blood Angel Predators
However, you -can- take:
3x Predators
3x Baal Predators
Because Baal predators are a different datasheet entry.
Edit: Tech Priests are a slightly odd one, as they are the same data sheet, but they're in a different force org slot? Under the current rules, you can still only have 3 of them, as they don't distinguish between force org slots just the actual datasheet entry. But it's a definite grey area as I don't think any other unit has this problem. For everything else, it's pretty straightforward.
Can you show me in the "Rule of three" where it says you use only the name to determine if it's the same datasheet? Because afaik the rule says no such thing. It only says "same datasheet." If Datasheet A has the <CHAPTER> Keyword, and Datasheet B doesn't have the <CHAPTER> keyword, then even if literally every other letter is identical, they are, by definition, not the same Datasheet.
Oh I see, I had read it as the tech marine datasheets being the same unit except for the force org slot it takes. If they also don't share the same faction keywords then it's an odd one. But my point still stands that the techmarine is in a unique situation, I don't think there are any other units that are in the same situation.
But you're right, with different keywords... maybe they're different units. I'm sure if anyone was ever wanting to take more than 3 techmarines in an army, there would be an faq about this.
I mean.. does anyone even take more than 1? Does anyone even take 1?
Dark Angels predator, Blood Angels, Vanilla and Space wolfs datasheets are diffrent for vehicals as they have different keywords.
The main reason its currently not even an issue is marine vehicals suck
Ice_can wrote: Dark Angels predator, Blood Angels, Vanilla and Space wolfs datasheets are diffrent for vehicals as they have different keywords.
The main reason its currently not even an issue is marine vehicals suck
They don't have different keywords? They're all the same. The only difference is that the <Chapter> keyword is fixed on the BA/DA datasheets.
If this was all that was needed to break the rule of 3, then you could take 9 leviathans in a list just by making 3 Ultramarines, 3 Salamanders and 3 Blood Angels.
Ice_can wrote: Dark Angels predator, Blood Angels, Vanilla and Space wolfs datasheets are diffrent for vehicals as they have different keywords.
The main reason its currently not even an issue is marine vehicals suck
They don't have different keywords? They're all the same. The only difference is that the <Chapter> keyword is fixed on the BA/DA datasheets.
If this was all that was needed to break the rule of 3, then you could take 9 leviathans in a list just by making 3 Ultramarines, 3 Salamanders and 3 Blood Angels.
Which is stupid, and not the case.
No your missing the point by confusing the Imperial Armour index example you have given with the codex's which are distinctly worded differently.
Blood angles don't have a <Chapter> keyword same for dark angles wolfs.
The imperial armour index also allows me to make a leviathan deathwatch which isn't a valid substitution for <Chapter> keyword in codex spacemarines.
Quite frankly the rule of 3 while well intentioned has been horribly wrongly implemented by GW.
A max of tau drones is 3 units but 10 demon princes is totally OK 3 Captains, 3 terminator captains, 3 gravis captains, 3 primaris captains and 3 captains on bikes and 3 Captains in Cataphractii armour is intentional thats 18 captains without even going into the named charictors ffs.
12 Leman Russes is ok but 4 predators is banned. Especially when the strategum for them needs 3 predators.
Ice_can wrote: Dark Angels predator, Blood Angels, Vanilla and Space wolfs datasheets are diffrent for vehicals as they have different keywords.
The main reason its currently not even an issue is marine vehicals suck
They don't have different keywords? They're all the same. The only difference is that the <Chapter> keyword is fixed on the BA/DA datasheets.
If this was all that was needed to break the rule of 3, then you could take 9 leviathans in a list just by making 3 Ultramarines, 3 Salamanders and 3 Blood Angels.
Which is stupid, and not the case.
No your missing the point by confusing the Imperial Armour index example you have given with the codex's which are distinctly worded differently.
Blood angles don't have a <Chapter> keyword same for dark angles wolfs.
The imperial armour index also allows me to make a leviathan deathwatch which isn't a valid substitution for <Chapter> keyword in codex spacemarines.
Quite frankly the rule of 3 while well intentioned has been horribly wrongly implemented by GW.
A max of tau drones is 3 units but 10 demon princes is totally OK 3 Captains, 3 terminator captains, 3 gravis captains, 3 primaris captains and 3 captains on bikes and 3 Captains in Cataphractii armour is intentional thats 18 captains without even going into the named charictors ffs.
12 Leman Russes is ok but 4 predators is banned. Especially when the strategum for them needs 3 predators.
Not looking at the Index, I'm reading the codices. Blood Angels Predator has the <Chapter> keyword, same as every other Predator does. It's just that the <Chapter> is forced into being Blood Angels, instead of you being able to make a choice. It's still a chapter keyword, and so it's still the same predator as every other predator.
Again, the Baal Predator would be fine, as that is actually a different vehicle option.
You're trying to game the rules, in a way that is clearly against the RAI (and even against the RAW).
And you're also arguing this (badly) in totally the wrong place. If you want to keep trying to convince people, take it to YMDC forum instead. You'll find a lot more people there who might be interested (but very few who will agree with you).
Apparently you ignored the context of what I was writing then. I was talking about why you might use a massive titan to break the walls of the Imperial Palace and how it's void shields were better than the shields on a Knight and you go of to talk about an irrelevant terrain piece so I corrected the idea by pointing out that the titans would be able to deflect things that would cause mortal wounds.
