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Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:28:04


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Seems like they are probably going to bring back Sanguinius, in the black legion novel the ghost of Sanny boy floats about in the vengeful spirit. Sounds like they'll bring him back, probably through the sanguinor or some nonsense. I can just imagine Ferrus and Curze coming back, walking about without heads bumping into each other and Dorn waving at people with his stub lol. I really hopw they don't bring them back, that would be embarrassing.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:32:18


Post by: AdmiralHalsey


Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:33:49


Post by: Carlovonsexron


Anything and everything to do with Grey Knights “Dread Knights”, and the abominations that are 40k “centurions”.

I hate both of those models so much, and by extension all lore that justifies them.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:35:36


Post by: BrianDavion


AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


remember when centurions where horriably looking lore breaking monstrocities because "OMG! they're just sliding them in as always existing" into the lore. then the primaris marines give the space marines genuinely new stuff and they're criticizied for fluffing it as NEW


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:37:18


Post by: AdmiralHalsey


BrianDavion wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


remember when centurions where horriably looking lore breaking monstrocities because "OMG! they're just sliding them in as always existing" into the lore. then the primaris marines give the space marines genuinely new stuff and they're criticizied for fluffing it as NEW


I resent both the Primaris and the Centurions. Almost as much as I resent the Imperial Guard squad of Psykers and the casual 'Take as many astropaths as you like in skirmish missions'.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 00:52:07


Post by: ClockworkZion


Backflipping terminators still wins for worst lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 05:56:57


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


The Custodes stuff is a bit weak mainly because it comes on top of so many other 'humanity's greatest warriors'.

Scions
Sisters
Marines
Space Wolves
Death Watch
Primaris
Grey Knights
Assassins
and now Custodes

And of course the rules don't live up to it, they're just slightly improved marines, basically an army of Chapter Captains. From the fluff I'd expect 5 wounds, 10 attacks...

There's only so many superlatives you can use.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 06:31:44


Post by: tneva82


AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 07:06:04


Post by: AnomanderRake


Most of them are pretty straightforward. Dorn, Kurze, Vulkan, and Alpharius are "presumed" dead (which is code for "not really dead but we haven't thought of a good plotline to bring them back with), Khan, Russ, and Corax left on crusade and never came back (which means they're still wandering somewhere, they're just lost), Fulgrim, Perturabo, Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Lorgar are all Daemon Princes running their own worlds in the Eye of Terror (which means they just have to make a suitably grotesquely oversized monstrosity of a model and they're good to go), and Guilliman and the Lion are sleeping in defined locations (or were, until Guilliman woke up).

The only ones that are at all difficult are:

Ferrus Manus: He's definitely dead, but Fulgrim keeps cloning him, trying to convince the clone to turn to Chaos, and killing them when they don't, so all we need is to have Russ (lost in the Eye of Terror with the 13th Great Company) find Fulgrim's planet and assault it to rescue a Ferrus clone.

Sanguinius: I've got a theory that the whole psychic imprint of his death that's behind the Black Rage isn't just a throwaway red herring, Sanguinius' consciousness has actually been discorporated (sort of the way Khaine has) and he's spent ten thousand years gathering himself back together and he's finally started preparing a suitable vessel for his resurrection, which is why Mephiston is the only Blood Angel ever to come back from the Black Rage and why he's S/T5. Sanguinius is growing him into Primarch proportions before he displaces Mephiston's mind and takes over his body. In this extended jaunt through logic and headcanon the Sanguinor is the red herring.

Horus: He's the only one I honestly don't think they'll bring back, both because of the weird identity lore around Abaddon ("Sons of Horus" as members of the Legion who look exactly like him, and Abaddon shutting down Fabius Bile's clone lab and killing the Horus clones.) and because it'd mean the Emperor didn't manage to obliterate him properly. I'm expecting a new post-Indomitus-Crusade counter Black Crusade with Abaddon properly ascended to Daemon Prince as the Black Legion 'Primarch'.

(As for the original question I'm still really annoyed at the 5e GK book. Not only does the Inquisition get cut almost entirely out of the tabletop, not only are eight hundred Grey Knights suddenly the only military force they've got access to after all the prior lore giving them significant private armies, the Deathwatch, Battle Sisters, etc., but the Grey Knights are suddenly incompetents whose protection against daemons can be improved by slaughtering their allies and painting their armour in blood, and they're led by Samurai Jack, who can't be bothered to actually do anything as pedestrian as, I don't know, lead the Grey Knights because he's too busy running around the Warp casually beating up Daemon Primarchs and wandering into their deepest sanctums for sh**s and giggles.)


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 07:07:00


Post by: BrianDavion


tneva82 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(


pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 07:32:07


Post by: Thargrim


If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 07:55:27


Post by: BrianDavion


 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 08:06:12


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Um Dorns skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist battle barge (per the novel Space Marine). The captains use it for skrimshaw practice.

Suffice to say if he's alive he must be pretty pissed by now.

Oh and while no one has found Russ, the Space Wolves found his armor, which means he's wandering the galaxy completely NEEKID.

I hope his model will reflect that fluff.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 08:09:45


Post by: tneva82


BrianDavion wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(


pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority


I ain't quitting but good luck finding him on our tables. We play on different time line altogether which ignores the crap GW has come up. No primarches running around in our time line nor primaris nor have we any intention as that would rip all continuity and cause all sort of weird time paradoxes like where the hell these supposedly so awesome primaris were during chaos raid's of terra system?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:04:24


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I gotta be honest I like the new direction GW has taken with the recent fluff. I like the primarchs coming back, I don't play chaos or Imperium but it's still one of the reasons I returned back to the hobby properly. It's nice to have things progress for a change. The storyline had been static/repeating the same thing since I first got in to the hobby at the age of 10. I'm 32 now and it feels that only in the last few years has the story actually moved forward. If you want to know the fluff I hate most it's either the previous black crusades (filler) or the Grey Knight stuff.

I'm also glad the general tone is shifting a little. We've had what, 30 years of grim dark? Can't we have a few years of grim beige at the very least?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:16:17


Post by: jhe90


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Um Dorns skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist battle barge (per the novel Space Marine). The captains use it for skrimshaw practice.

Suffice to say if he's alive he must be pretty pissed by now.

Oh and while no one has found Russ, the Space Wolves found his armor, which means he's wandering the galaxy completely NEEKID.

I hope his model will reflect that fluff.


Got retconned to his hands.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:21:52


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 jhe90 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Um Dorns skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist battle barge (per the novel Space Marine). The captains use it for skrimshaw practice.

Suffice to say if he's alive he must be pretty pissed by now.

Oh and while no one has found Russ, the Space Wolves found his armor, which means he's wandering the galaxy completely NEEKID.

I hope his model will reflect that fluff.


Got retconned to his hands.


That's silly. How does he put his pants on in the morning?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:30:52


Post by: Zaku212


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Um Dorns skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist battle barge (per the novel Space Marine). The captains use it for skrimshaw practice.

Suffice to say if he's alive he must be pretty pissed by now.

Oh and while no one has found Russ, the Space Wolves found his armor, which means he's wandering the galaxy completely NEEKID.

I hope his model will reflect that fluff.


Got retconned to his hands.


That's silly. How does he put his pants on in the morning?


With great difficulty


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:32:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


The worst lore is the Ynnari being able to reverse the Rubric. Completely cheapens Ahriman's quest that some cat lady can just snap her fingers and solve the entire problem.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 09:43:54


Post by: Corennus


GW could be justified in bringing back:

Primarchs:
Lion El'Johsnnon - Waking up with the worst hangover ever
Corax (out of the warp)
Russ (out of the warp)
Khan (out of the webway)
Vulkan (being a Perpetual healing himself after the war of the Beast)
Kurze (because no-one saw him die)
Alpharius (Because it could be Omegon)

Do I hope they do this? NO. Because it's bad enough having Guilliman back and upsetting the balance of all Space Marine armies with his Primaris Marines.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 10:00:15


Post by: ChazSexington


Primaris and Cawl (especially as he's now apparently worked on the Space Marine project where it was explicitly stated all the scientists were killed). It jars with everything, followed closely by the 2 pages in Legion it takes for a coven of xenos witches to convince Alpharius to betray the Emperor by showing a vision of how to defeat Chaos. It's like a piss take of the 90s moral panic that kids are too impressionable to play violent computer games.

Kaldor Draigo flying through the Warp, the new-ish cheapening of Fulgrim, and the Guilliman Ex Machina'ing of the Blood Angels. I dislike the return of the Primarchs, as it doesn't quite fit the narrative. The Loyalist Primarchs are KIA/MIA and the Traitor Primarchs are above such petty squabbles like reality.

These are the most egregious things anyway.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The Custodes stuff is a bit weak mainly because it comes on top of so many other 'humanity's greatest warriors'.

Scions
Sisters
Marines
Space Wolves
Death Watch
Primaris
Grey Knights
Assassins
and now Custodes

And of course the rules don't live up to it, they're just slightly improved marines, basically an army of Chapter Captains. From the fluff I'd expect 5 wounds, 10 attacks...

There's only so many superlatives you can use.


Custodes aren't new, at all. They just looked... different.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 10:05:22


Post by: A.T.


For sheer lack of scale the Tau attack on the hive world of Agrellan.

Listed as 20 cadres of fire warriors (~1000 warriors total plus vehicle support and a handful of riptides) split into separate simultaneous attacks against 20 hive cities.

Ground assaults directly through the minefields into the artillery barrage, through the bunkers and outer walls, followed by street to street fighting against the local PDF, guard forces, a household of knights and an entire company of white scars space marines including the chapter master.

Needless to say that the tau routed the whole planet with minimal losses.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 10:49:45


Post by: kastelen


 Corennus wrote:
GW could be justified in bringing back:

Primarchs:
Lion El'Johsnnon - Waking up with the worst hangover ever
Corax (out of the warp)
Russ (out of the warp)
Khan (out of the webway)
Vulkan (being a Perpetual healing himself after the war of the Beast)
Kurze (because no-one saw him die)
Alpharius (Because it could be Omegon)

Do I hope they do this? NO. Because it's bad enough having Guilliman back and upsetting the balance of all Space Marine armies with his Primaris Marines.

Dorn (Only his hands were found)
Ferrus Manus (Could be in Mars or could be a clone)


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 11:12:37


Post by: Tristanleo


 Corennus wrote:
GW could be justified in bringing back:

Primarchs:
Lion El'Johsnnon - Waking up with the worst hangover ever
Corax (out of the warp)
Russ (out of the warp)
Khan (out of the webway)
Vulkan (being a Perpetual healing himself after the war of the Beast)
Kurze (because no-one saw him die)
Alpharius (Because it could be Omegon)

Do I hope they do this? NO. Because it's bad enough having Guilliman back and upsetting the balance of all Space Marine armies with his Primaris Marines.


Kurze was witnessed to die, his legion saw M'Shen running with his severed head in the Night lords book series. It's just the pict feed that was supposed to show she completed the job got slightly corrupted so you can't see all the details.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 12:09:01


Post by: Lum


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Most of them are pretty straightforward. Dorn, Kurze, Vulkan, and Alpharius are "presumed" dead (which is code for "not really dead but we haven't thought of a good plotline to bring them back with)


Where is it said that Vulkan is dead? AFAIK, he just... kind of left and is said to come back once the Sallies finally find all of his loot. Plus, he is a Perpetual, so killing him for good seems kind of... difficult.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 12:29:03


Post by: NH Gunsmith


I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 14:04:10


Post by: 3dog


A.T. wrote:
For sheer lack of scale the Tau attack on the hive world of Agrellan.

Listed as 20 cadres of fire warriors (~1000 warriors total plus vehicle support and a handful of riptides) split into separate simultaneous attacks against 20 hive cities.

Ground assaults directly through the minefields into the artillery barrage, through the bunkers and outer walls, followed by street to street fighting against the local PDF, guard forces, a household of knights and an entire company of white scars space marines including the chapter master.

Needless to say that the tau routed the whole planet with minimal losses.

A Tau cadre is listed as 50 soldiers? That would be the single most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. (Not that I think you're making it up. GW is totally that ridiculous.) But where does it say that? I've always pictured a cadre as a group of several dozen thousands at the low end.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 14:18:46


Post by: Corennus


As always. the Lore surrounding the characters and races is VASTLY overinflated compared to the actual tabletop game in the real world.

If the tabletop game was the same as the Lore you'd have a single HQ unit taking on an entire army of Orks (Marneus i'm looking at you).

Or Terminators who can only be felled by a bloodthirster. nothing less.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 14:25:30


Post by: A.T.


3dog wrote:
A Tau cadre is listed as 50 soldiers? That would be the single most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
4th edition Tau codex, page 22.
"A Cadre normally consists of up to six fire warrior teams, plus a number of Pathfinder, Stealth, and Battlesuit teams, plus a handful of Hammerhead tanks or more specialised vehicles..."

Call it 60-70 firewarriors at the high end allowing for drones, plus the specialists. Perhaps as many as 100 soldiers all in.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 14:58:55


Post by: hippyjr


A.T. wrote:
3dog wrote:
A Tau cadre is listed as 50 soldiers? That would be the single most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
4th edition Tau codex, page 22.
"A Cadre normally consists of up to six fire warrior teams, plus a number of Pathfinder, Stealth, and Battlesuit teams, plus a handful of Hammerhead tanks or more specialised vehicles..."

Call it 60-70 firewarriors at the high end allowing for drones, plus the specialists. Perhaps as many as 100 soldiers all in.


Fire warrior squads are 6-12, so 60-120 warriors in a cadre (plus support).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 15:17:07


Post by: A.T.


 hippyjr wrote:
Fire warrior squads are 6-12, so 60-120 warriors in a cadre (plus support).
Up to six squads of twelve warriors, so capping at 72 without allowing transport space for drone units.

I got the impression they were aiming for ~100 mixed infantry and specialists/suits in total with the way the books compare them to guard company sizes - I just split the difference with the original estimate half firewarriors and half suits/drones/etc.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 15:34:53


Post by: hippyjr


A.T. wrote:
 hippyjr wrote:
Fire warrior squads are 6-12, so 60-120 warriors in a cadre (plus support).
Up to six squads of twelve warriors, so capping at 72 without allowing transport space for drone units.

I got the impression they were aiming for ~100 mixed infantry and specialists/suits in total with the way the books compare them to guard company sizes - I just split the difference with the original estimate half firewarriors and half suits/drones/etc.


Wow completely made up 10 squads in my head.

Stupidly small planetary invasion either way though


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 15:56:06


Post by: A.T.


 hippyjr wrote:
Stupidly small planetary invasion either way though
TBH the whole thing sounds like Shas'O Bilk'O trying to justify the deployment of a dozen new experimental suits to secure a backwater colony.

"Yes sir, twenty hives all at once. New suit went straight through the minefield, and the bunkers, and the nukes. Not a scratch sir, burnt clear through the outer wall. Fought them hand to hand sir, space marines, but we beat them back. Prisoners? No sir, evacuated the whole planet they did..."


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 17:51:47


Post by: pm713


It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 18:45:00


Post by: john27


Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 19:23:41


Post by: Bobthehero


Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 21:10:34


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.



The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.



Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 21:36:27


Post by: Bobthehero


I do, and it may that the Orks humour's not my thing, maybe?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 22:52:40


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Are you the edgy type


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 23:03:44


Post by: HuskyWarhammer


I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 23:03:59


Post by: Bobthehero


No? I don't know how hard of a concept it is to grasp, I don't like Orks.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 23:07:51


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.


Imperial Knights were in EPIC, they've been around for most of the life of GW. They just didn't sell them in 40k, its not like they came out of nowhere just to make money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bobthehero wrote:
No? I don't know how hard of a concept it is to grasp, I don't like Orks.


I'm just joking lol


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/16 23:17:54


Post by: Bulldogging


Do the clones of Ferrus have his "soul"?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 01:43:31


Post by: NH Gunsmith


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.



The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.



Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.


What? I said Primaris haha. I really don't mind the occasional Primarch popping up.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 02:39:53


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.



The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.



Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.


What? I said Primaris haha. I really don't mind the occasional Primarch popping up.



lol my bad.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 02:46:52


Post by: BrianDavion


even the Primaris I think we should give GW a chance on them, give it a few years and maybe they'll manage to make em seem really cool. or maybe they won't and yeah it'll just be a "space mariens +1"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 02:47:53


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


Most of the stuff from Rogue Trader was garbage by today's standards, regardless of how old neckbeards see it. Between them, and hipsters trying to pretend it was 'amazing', it was actually awful.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 04:24:09


Post by: Niiai


I remember 5th edition grey knights to be quite bad in the fluff if you read it literarly, and not just as very hyperbole. One saving grace is that the grey knights used to trade with necrons in order to get 'mazes' to trap demons in, and other neat details. But the GK over all where the most perpfect of all the perfectes.

Also, one of the 5th edition necrons has a mini model of the universe where they can destroy any planet by destroying the planet on the model. Terra anyone? :p


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 05:11:05


Post by: NH Gunsmith


 Niiai wrote:
I remember 5th edition grey knights to be quite bad in the fluff if you read it literarly, and not just as very hyperbole. One saving grace is that the grey knights used to trade with necrons in order to get 'mazes' to trap demons in, and other neat details. But the GK over all where the most perpfect of all the perfectes.

Also, one of the 5th edition necrons has a mini model of the universe where they can destroy any planet by destroying the planet on the model. Terra anyone? :p


Yeah, after the Daemonhunters Codex was split up, I haven't found any of the Grey Knights fluff to be good. I loved their depiction in the Daemonhunters Codex, still my favorite army I have ever played.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 05:55:20


Post by: pm713


 john27 wrote:
Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.

A fair amount of people seem to disagree with that.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 05:59:35


Post by: BrianDavion


pm713 wrote:
 john27 wrote:
Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.

A fair amount of people seem to disagree with that.


sure, but by and large he's right that necrons have beniffited from the 5th edition re-write.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 10:02:04


Post by: Peregrine


Tyranids. /thread


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 10:49:43


Post by: A.T.


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Most of the stuff from Rogue Trader was garbage by today's standards, regardless of how old neckbeards see it. Between them, and hipsters trying to pretend it was 'amazing', it was actually awful.
It was fairly tongue in cheek awful though, and with a few subtle bits that not everyone would pick up on. The 'sister sin' image for instance (and quite possibly the entire existence of the sisters of battle) was a political joke that would be completely missed by anyone born in the last 30-40 years.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 11:49:32


Post by: Duskweaver


All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 13:16:10


Post by: stonehorse


Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.


This. It also made the Necrons far too Human, their intentions are wholly relatable. Not only did we see some of the best background erased, but we also saw a glut of horrid models. The 3rd edition Necron range were uncluttered and looked practical, which for a machine race made sense. The 5th edition models are idiotic, a machine driving a machine while pointing to fire.

The Monolith worked to spread Terror as it looked so alien, it didn't look like a machine, but more a building or object.

Now it no doubt has a driver... who is also pointing, while wearing a silly headpiece, because Tomb Kings in Space!!!

Worst background is anything touched by Matt Ward. He tried too hard to make it like a Saturday morning cartoon. 40k has a long tradition of being a satirical piece influenced by the political landscape of UK in the 80's.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 18:26:51


Post by: Infantryman


Yeah, I just looked up the Necrons as they are sold currently - other than the Warriors, everything looks rather different. I remember some models having cloaks and whatnot, but not so much decoration.

Guess they really wanted to push the Tomb Kings connection?

Anyways, speaking of bad lore, didn't the Tau (?) and Swolves (?) fight underwater at some point with screw-driven Landraiders or something?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 18:32:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 20:35:28


Post by: BrianDavion


Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.


Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem. Which brings me to a point as to what I consider the worst lore in 40k as a general rule...


factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders. When the entire purpose of a table top mini game is to paint a army up as your personal army, giving any of your armies a single "this is the correct paint job" is IMHO a horriable writing sin. That said I think GW mostly realizes this, hence the various shield host colour schemes among the Custodes. which was a pleasent suprise. and offers up all sorts of possiabiulities


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 20:43:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


BrianDavion wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.


Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem. Which brings me to a point as to what I consider the worst lore in 40k as a general rule...


Except this game is a wargame, not a RPG. The fact they are "your dudes" is irrelevant. They are just meat...er, metal for the grinder.
You also missed the point about necrons - its not about them, its about how people are going to deal with them. Its a horror story, and they're the monster.

Not to mention they got rid of one of the most disturbing aspects of necron lore, and that was the flayed one.
In 3rd ed, in one of the white dwarf articles I believe, it elaborated on their origin - they are necrons who remembered who they were due to a bug and wanted to return to the flesh, and were gradually driven insane by their failure to do so.
Now they are just robots cursed by a god to be hungry. Which is lame. I find existential crisis to be much more disturbing than contrived space magic.

The thing about 3rd ed necrons is that most of their best lore comes from outside of the codex, something which I think was the case for most armies back then. If you want to read some really good stuff you had to go looking for it, instead of relying on the codex like you can nowadays.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 21:01:59


Post by: Duskweaver


BrianDavion wrote:
Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem.

They could have added some potential for personalising individual armies without destroying 90% of the faction's background. Customisable C'tan, for example. Or character-level Pariahs who suffer nightmares of their former human lives and so are driven to lead necron armies to hunt down their former loved ones. Stuff that expanded on the 3rd edition fluff, rather than retconning it.

Also, Tyranid players have always been fine playing an army that "lacks personality", so I'm not even convinced it was a problem that needed solving. Honestly, I think Oldcrons did the "faceless horde of cosmic horror" theme better justice than the Tyranids have ever managed.

factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders.

I agree with this 100%. In my headcanon, the official blue-grey scheme for the SW is just how Ragnar Blackmane's great company happens to look. Other great companies might wear entirely different colour schemes (and Logan Grimnar's wear the original VI Legion colours with the darker grey and red detailing).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 21:10:23


Post by: AnomanderRake


Duskweaver wrote:

factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders.

I agree with this 100%. In my headcanon, the official blue-grey scheme for the SW is just how Ragnar Blackmane's great company happens to look. Other great companies might wear entirely different colour schemes (and Logan Grimnar's wear the original VI Legion colours with the darker grey and red detailing).


Given how much variation there is in what "unpainted ceramite" looks like (the silver on the Grey Knights is one version, but the off-white of pre-Heresy Death Guard is also supposed to be unpainted) I always assumed that there was some variation possible within the Grey Knights (the main armour on mine is white).

And given the Custodes shield-hosts with different schemes in the current lore I'd expect the Grey Knights to get a similar treatment next time GW pays any attention to them.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 21:33:51


Post by: Grimtuff


BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 22:07:30


Post by: BrianDavion


keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 23:03:22


Post by: An Actual Englishman


BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/17 23:08:49


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.


Oh, like the Old crons had different objectives and parameters based on their tomb world's programming or C'tan influence?
Some necrons murdered everything, some necrons infiltrated (see : Xenology and the short story in the 3rd codex about the Deceiver posing as a governor), some necrons performed "experiments" on people (basically cattle mutilation. Except with people. I think that was also referenced in the 3rd ed codex). In the 5th ed rule book (iirc), before necrons were rewritten (keep in mind the codex came out a few years after the BrB was released), there was even a little bit of lore about a necron tomb world that launched raids at such precise times due to a programming error that the world they were targeting began to use them as training practice.
Just because the faction doesn't have a mustache twirling maniac with a stupid hat doesn't mean they lack specific traits and behaviors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 04:17:18


Post by: BrianDavion


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 06:25:18


Post by: pm713


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.

I'd rather GW put effort into new things rather than just going "oh hey they had this all along. Well most of them. These guys don't. Especially when they neglect other model lines. Space Marines didn't really need redone plastic assault marines while a whole load of other lines are stuck with Finecrap.

I can't imagine any Centurion that looks decent. They're pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.

I've always thought it was quite a missed opportunity by GW to just skip over 5000 years of history. That was a goldmine for campaigns and such.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 08:35:47


Post by: Dakka Wolf


Warzone Fenris - Dark Angels cleanse Fenris.
Surely that means Fenris is gone right?

Wrath of Magnus - Oh no, the Dark Angels just bombed it a little bit and destroyed a few other planets in the Fenris system, the Grey Knights did more damage to the Fenrisian population than the Dark Angels did with their "cleansing".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 08:57:06


Post by: BrianDavion


 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.


sure and how long Have the Tau been about? The Tyranids? The Necrons have only started waking up. etc going back in time has some advantages sure but it also means various races are more restricted


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 09:23:23


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Cthulusspy wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.

I think you missed my point that being from a narrative perspective Nids will always be that locust swarm.

You can't go into details of the hopes and dreams of a Nid.
Their love life is probably best unexplored.
The thoughts of a general servant of the Hivemind are effectively "serve Hivemind, serve Hivemind....".

Nids will always be that faceless locust swarm. The interesting narrative will come from the foes they face.

GSC are decidedly not Nids, both in terms of character and theme and they have much more in the way of narrative potential.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 09:27:35


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Cthulusspy wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


Only if you're not imaginative. If you can write a good, compelling story about the effects of a locust swarm on farmers and their attempts to deal with it, you can do one with tyranids. You even have a "human" component in the form of genestealer cults, that one could use if one doesn't know how to handle force of nature level threats like nids.
Necrons also had a "human" component in the form of C'tan, Pariahs, implied cultists and that one lord in Xenology. Its just they were subtle about it instead of hitting you over the head with bling and robo Don Quixote.

I think you missed my point that being from a narrative perspective Nids will always be that locust swarm.

You can't go into details of the hopes and dreams of a Nid.
Their love life is probably best unexplored.
The thoughts of a general servant of the Hivemind are effectively "serve Hivemind, serve Hivemind....".

Nids will always be that faceless locust swarm. The interesting narrative will come from the foes they face.

GSC are decidedly not Nids, both in terms of character and theme and they have much more in the way of narrative potential.


Fair enough. That's how they should always be.
Technically GSC are nids though...well, on the way to becoming one, anyway
That genestealer trick of messing with people's DNA is pretty scary. That's some Thing level stuff.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 09:39:33


Post by: A Town Called Malus


The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 09:56:50


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Fair enough. That's how they should always be.
Technically GSC are nids though...well, on the way to becoming one, anyway
That genestealer trick of messing with people's DNA is pretty scary. That's some Thing level stuff.


Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 11:10:44


Post by: pm713


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).

I think you mean the first one Behemoth.

I like pre Riptide Tau a lot.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 11:16:29


Post by: BrianDavion


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


In fairness mind you Tau are one of the more flexable and response races so I could see their doctrines actually changing. consider how much Naval doctrine changed from 1900 to 1950, just for example. we went from the old pre-dreadnoughts of 1900, to the dreadnought era, to the end of the dreadnought era and the rise of the aircraft carrier as the insturment of naval supremacy.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 17:39:28


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


Welcome to Kirby era GW, where nothing makes sense and only profit matters


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 18:05:17


Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy


 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

Honestly I don't recall it ever actually being stated that the Tau regarded Titans as wasteful. I'd be interested in quotes for it.

The rest I agree with you on though. It was an interesting difference the Tau had with other factions but instead no, they need big stompy robots too. Albeit theirs can jetpack and do other funky stuff, so continuing to take the superior technology schtick from the Eldar.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 18:05:47


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.

I'd rather GW put effort into new things rather than just going "oh hey they had this all along. Well most of them. These guys don't. Especially when they neglect other model lines. Space Marines didn't really need redone plastic assault marines while a whole load of other lines are stuck with Finecrap.

I can't imagine any Centurion that looks decent. They're pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
If they bring back all the primarchs then the horus heresy not only loses it's impact on the setting but also its distinct appeal as a setting for gaming itself. I already disagree and dislike about everything Cawl has done to the setting. If they bring back Ferrus or Sanguinius I will seriously stop taking interest in 40k as a setting at all. I don't think there needs to be story progression or new things anymore. This is a backdrop for games and models...not a novel or evolving tv series.

Also for the record I haven't ever bought a primarch model, from FW or GW for that matter. if 40k become like AoS where it's a struggle of god like beings and super heroes then it diminishes the significance of the captains and characters the players create, whether it's an autarch or space marine captain. It leaves less room for characters to stand out because no one can compare to how OP and crap the primarchs are.



except that 40k as a setting had, after 20 or so years of non-development begun to get stale, moving things up a bit, allows them to shake stuff up
.


Stale? This gak again?

You do not have to play in the the "current". You had a sandbox of 10,000 years of 40k history to play in. 10,000 years is longer than recorded human history so far. Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History.

To claim that that amount of time is stale is just so utterly fallacious it's insulting.

I've always thought it was quite a missed opportunity by GW to just skip over 5000 years of history. That was a goldmine for campaigns and such.

That's a complaint about Marine focus. So I'm gonna ignore your complaint as actually legit now for the thread's topic.

Also just go through the gallery here on this website. They don't take a lot of effort. If you get rid of the shin guards and crap, for example, they actually look like they can walk.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 19:09:45


Post by: Infantryman


An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 19:31:20


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 19:36:15


Post by: Flinty


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.


Also it's a means of determining target priority. In a galaxy of 100 billion stars it's nice to know ahead of time which ones are most worthwhile visiting. If a nice strong genestealer beacon goes up the hive mind can be sure of a useful system, and now one which is weakened from within.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 20:56:45


Post by: Patriarch Phyrx


BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/18 22:57:53


Post by: BrianDavion


Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.


After reading that and Dark Imperium I've come to appreciate Haley as a writer, thinking I might go and find what other 40k stuff he's written to see if it's any good


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 00:29:38


Post by: AegisGrimm


 Flinty wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea agreed on both counts. Genestealers ability to manipulate the dna of their victims and force them to love them or worship them or whatever is messed up and very compelling.


I never really dabbled in Nid stuff before, but I've long wondered what the point of a GSC is anyways. Like, a fleet can't really be stopped, so what's the point of creating an internal cult of gene-manipulated supplicants to destroy from the inside when you can just...show up and win?


A fleet can be stopped, and its a lot easier trying to eat a world when its not fighting back.


Also it's a means of determining target priority. In a galaxy of 100 billion stars it's nice to know ahead of time which ones are most worthwhile visiting. If a nice strong genestealer beacon goes up the hive mind can be sure of a useful system, and now one which is weakened from within.


Yeah, the entire point of a Genestealer cult is to be a homing beacon, and the more successful it gets the larger that beacon will be, showing it's a big juicy meal among other planets that are too barren to be worth it.

They are really cunning, actually. It's the organic version of a human probe being sent out to determine whether a planet is fit for colonization.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 04:59:38


Post by: Infantryman


Today I learned.

Sort of like Deep Ones in a sense, I guess. Been a while, though.

Something that would make a good RPG session plot...

Can GSCs be their own army, or are they an add-on to Nids like Cultists are to CSM?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 06:04:02


Post by: Zenithfleet


Wall o' text incoming! Danger! Danger!

I tend to think of most fluff from 5th ed 40K onward as poor. To be fair though, I haven't read much of it for that reason and only know of it secondhand. But it seems as if a lot of the fluff has never really recovered from the damage done back then.

Somebody upthread mentioned 'Saturday morning cartoonification', and I think that's a fair description of what happened in 5th.

It wasn't just Newcrons and Grey Knights. Tyranid fluff also went wonky in 5th ed from what I hear. Suddenly they didn't use the warp, had reincarnating Warriors and more personality, silly stuff like a Lictor pursuing a pointless 'campaign of terror' against an official instead of just killing him, a rejigged timeline and all the rest of it.

Chaos Daemons were also given the cartoon treatment. Before 5th ed, it was practically unheard of to read fluff from a daemon's perspective. You saw them through the eyes of mortals who encountered them. (Tuomas Pirinen, who worked on WFB stuff back in the day, is on record as saying the way daemons think is completely alien and incomprehensible.) In their 5th ed Chaos Daemons book, though, there are narrative sections from the point of view of daemons--like the one that has a bunch of them jostling around a portal and arguing about who's going to go through first. Reminds me of D&D Planescape devils having a drink in a bar, or Pain and Panic from Disney's Hercules.

Mind you, there were notable exceptions from that era, such as Dark Eldar.

Personally I tend to think of 2nd ed and 3rd ed fluff as definitive. Partly because I got into the hobby around that time, but also because the original creators of 40K (Priestley, Chambers et al) were still writing for GW back then. 5th ed onward feels like fanfiction to me. Just like WFB from 6th edition onwards (ooh, controversial ).

Older fluff does have its share of silliness though. There was a special character in the 2nd ed Sisters of Battle codex who was famous for winning a guerilla warfare campaign against Tyranids. Sure. Whatever you say.



Newcron fluff vs Oldcron fluff

I'm on the spiky gothic fence about this (ouch) because I don't really think either version is all it's cracked up to be. The Necron fluff has never quite hit the spot in any incarnation.

My main problem with the 3rd ed Necrons wasn't that they lacked personality; as a poster above said, faceless robots are just as acceptable as faceless gribbly Tyranid hordes.

It wasn't even the way they were shoehorned into the fluff as an ancient Big Bad we'd never heard of before and retconning stuff like the Eldar War in Heaven. (Tau on the other hand were introduced quite sensibly as a minor alien race recently risen to prominence.)

No, for me the trouble was that despite the valiant attempts at building a creepy atmosphere, Oldcrons didn't really seem all that scary when all was said and done. They just killed you. (Unless you had the pariah gene.)

In a universe where Hell exists right next door and eternal damnation is a very real threat, a painful death is least of your problems. Even Tyranids eat you and your planet and use the biomass to make more 'nids, which is a more primal fear than death by green laser.

Similarly, 'Tomb Kings in Space' aren't nearly as scary as actual Tomb Kings (or Vampire Counts, or other kinds of Undead) in WFB.

The essence of Undead in Fantasy was that they killed you and then turned you into one of them. Your corpse was reanimated by necromancy and ended up enslaved to fight for them forever in a horrible living death, with dim memories of your former existence. That was why they were so frightening.

(To be fair, I haven't actually read much of the Newcron fluff, so maybe this angle is already included and I just don't know it.)



A quick fix for Necron fluff

If I could change one thing about the 3rd ed Oldcrons, I'd steal a couple of ideas from Doctor Who:

Firstly, I'd reveal that their Gauss-flayer guns are actually extremely painful teleporters. If you're shot by one, you're not zapped through the Warp like regular 40K teleportation; Necrons don't like that crazy place. Instead you're taken apart atom by atom and beamed to a tomb complex to be reassembled from the inside out, sans armour and weapons, in classic sf matter transmission style.

And once they've got you, they convert you into a new Necron. Just like the Cybermen (or the Daleks now and then). Doesn't matter who you are. Ork, Eldar, Human, Tau, whatever. Pariah gene people might be especially useful, but it works on most humanoid races. Anything the Necrons can't convert, such as a Tyranid or a vehicle, they just destroy.

That would make the whole 'harvesting' angle much scarier IMO. Necrons don't just kill planetary populations and leave no trace--they vanish them because they're converting them all into fresh Necrons. Possibly the victims remain aware in some sense, forced to obey orders in an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' situation. Or maybe they're stripped of all emotion--which would deprive the Warp of emotional energy.

The more they kill, the more Necrons there are--just like fantasy Undead--and the weaker the Warp becomes. So there's no need to muck around with complicated hints about pariah genes and ancient devices to cut off the Warp from the real universe. All the Necrons have to do is go to war. It's very hard to permanently destroy a Necron once it's created (it just phases out)... but every enemy killed by a Necron is added to their ranks. Every victory creates fresh troops and calms the raging emotions of the galaxy.

Eventually, when every sapient being is a robotic zombie, Chaos will flicker and die out and the galaxy will be at peace. The peace... of the grave! Dun dun dun.

It's just a rough fanwank idea that would need a bit of finessing, but there you go.


Alternatively...


On the other hand, GW could have presented Necrons as the Men of Iron from the Dark Age of Technology. (The Old-Oldcrons from late 2nd edition certainly looked like it, at least in terms of model design.) Robots created by humans who turned on us in classic sf fashion, and now returning to finish the job.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 06:42:59


Post by: Infantryman


Yeah that's actually kinda cool...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 06:45:41


Post by: BrianDavion


definatly thik making them the old men of iron woulda been cool. that said the necron anti warp pylon things is actually a pretty big part of the story now. and something GW MIGHT be able to do something with... there is a LOT of potential for Necrons in the "post gathering storm era" and I'm VERY curious to see how it comes together


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 07:47:23


Post by: Patriarch Phyrx


BrianDavion wrote:
Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind 'nids DO have some personality. when I say personality I don't mean characters with character traits per say, (Space Wolves for example despite having that in droves also IMHO suffer on the personality field as they don't have much varity) the differant hive fleets each with their differant specialization etc tend to have some personality.

I'd say that it's the lack of personality that makes Nids so interesting.

They are the only truly alien threat to the galaxy. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be purchased or bargained with, they have no mysterious agenda, they are basically space faring insects that have evolved beyond anything that anyone can comprehend and seek only to feed, evolve and move on. That is their most defining trait imo.

Unfortunately it means they are relatively one dimensional when it comes to battles and narrative.


I think the best nrraitve I read regarding the 'nids was in Devestation of Baal. great read


Valedor and it’s and The Last Days of Ector are similar, but with Eldar as well. The same great Tyranid characterisation (not as refined as in doB though)

Devastation of Baal is a really great example of of how characterise Tyranids. Guy Haley goes into a lot of detail exploring how they work. The Lictor character story running through it has loads to offer, and we get a look at some other species in depth too.


After reading that and Dark Imperium I've come to appreciate Haley as a writer, thinking I might go and find what other 40k stuff he's written to see if it's any good


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 09:18:01


Post by: A Town Called Malus


BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


In fairness mind you Tau are one of the more flexable and response races so I could see their doctrines actually changing. consider how much Naval doctrine changed from 1900 to 1950, just for example. we went from the old pre-dreadnoughts of 1900, to the dreadnought era, to the end of the dreadnought era and the rise of the aircraft carrier as the insturment of naval supremacy.


True, but this would be more akin to the evolution of tank design than warships. In space the navy is the air force, after all.

And we can see that tank design did not lead to the creation of ever larger tanks, due to the obvious weaknesses of an enormous tank, such as having a large profile, weighing a huge amount and that weight limiting its manoeuvrability (trying to drive it at the same speed and in the same way as a lighter tank would be impossible or put incredible strain on its drive systems) and transporting it is a logistical nightmare (it can't drive on roads as it would shred them, you can't fit many onto planes or ships as they are take up a lot of room and weight, it may even be too big to transport by train).

And the Tau did adapt to large targets before the introduction of all the enormous suits. They first used massed Hammerheads, then they also used Mantas, then they developed the Tigershark with its dual heavy railguns. The Tau had already solved the problems of imperial heavy armour before the Riptide came along, which is why GW had to retcon the fluff to make it necessary (and, again, despite the Riptide being worse at the job than the other options).

The Tau had already effectively developed the "aircraft carrier" in the form of the Manta. It was able to deliver an entire fire caste cadre and also packed enough heavy weaponry to defend itself from most enemy targets, especially when backed up by other Tau aircraft.

The Riptide and other large suits were a solution to a problem the Tau had already solved. The Ghostkeel I don't mind. It operates in a niche enough role that it makes sense, heavy weapon support for Stealth Suits. It can operate as part of an infiltration force, with capabilities not already given by other Tau weapon systems. A larger weapons platform equipped with stealth technology makes sense. A large battlesuit with inferior guns to your equally mobile tank does not.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 12:31:25


Post by: Corennus


Worst Lore:

The gak storm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 13:20:05


Post by: Process


Like the Primaris models, like the Primarchs coming back (would happily see all of them back).

But the whole story advancement and background of primaris is gak. So unimaginative and bland.

Im reading dark Imperium at the moment and the dialogue is god awful. Like actually cringe worthy at points.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 13:38:51


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new?

YES yes yes yes YES yes YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!
Marine range is done now focus effort on finishing other range.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 14:15:46


Post by: Earth127


Any attempt at makig a thousand marines per chapter work (or really specific numbers in general).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 14:16:32


Post by: Kanluwen


Anything remotely connected to people believing that Skitarii don't have their own leadership.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 17:22:13


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Infantryman wrote:
Today I learned.

Sort of like Deep Ones in a sense, I guess. Been a while, though.

Something that would make a good RPG session plot...

Can GSCs be their own army, or are they an add-on to Nids like Cultists are to CSM?


They are their own army. They were present in 2nd ed (iirc), came back in 7th ed and are around in 8th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zenithfleet wrote:
[

No, for me the trouble was that despite the valiant attempts at building a creepy atmosphere, Oldcrons didn't really seem all that scary when all was said and done. They just killed you. (Unless you had the pariah gene.)



Not entirely true. Necrons also performed experiments on people, such as vivisection, and direct contact with them usually led to madness. Psychological warfare is a big necron tactic, and they had weapons that quite literally terrified people into submission.
There's also a rather disturbing short story in the 3rd ed codex about what would happen if the C'tan won. Genocide would not be immediate. They would have fun "playing" with humans first.
The Deceiver, for example, would trick people into thinking they are in paradise, when in reality they are walking in broken glass.

They were, to use DnD terms, Lawful evil compared to Chaos's Chaotic Evil. There were even 4 C'tan, which I thought was an interesting parallel to the 4 Chaos Gods.
But nope, interesting themes are a bad and complicated thing, so that aspect was dropped.

I think it was mentioned somewhere as well that the Necrons will abduct people during their raids. Presumably for experimentation. Not sure I like the gauss teleporter gun idea because of that, as it sounds kind of silly and necrons already do that without zapping people all the way to the tomb world. Its a gauss flayer, not a gauss teleporter. Flayer implies that the skin is being removed, in other words, a gun that skins its target alive. Which I imagine is a dreadful way to die and must to traumatic to watch for any witnesses.
The cyberman thing sounds good though. That could be a back story for Flayed Ones, that they were "fresh" necrons who remembered they were human due to a fault. Pariahs are already basically cybermen, so why not extend that to warriors? Let pariahs be captives found to have the pariah gene and let warriors be anyone else.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 18:28:43


Post by: Infantryman


I seem to rememebr CSC being a thing in some capacity c. 3.5ed but I can't really vouch for that. I know they weren't a new concept to me when I came back in 8e.

Also, are the C'Tan not a thing anymore?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 18:33:50


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Infantryman wrote:
I seem to rememebr CSC being a thing in some capacity c. 3.5ed but I can't really vouch for that. I know they weren't a new concept to me when I came back in 8e.

Also, are the C'Tan not a thing anymore?


They are a thing, they just aren't major players. They are more like...pokemon.
Seriously, the Necrons keep them in prison devices and periodically release them against their enemies, and they scour the galaxy looking for them.

Basically, the necrons somehow rebelled against them (Dunno how they did or why the C'tan allowed them to have free will after putting them in metal bodies. 5th ed gonna 5th ed I guess) and broke them up into tiny little pieces that went everywhere. The necrons contained most but not all of them, and some escaped confinement.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 19:00:47


Post by: Frazzled


 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah that's actually kinda cool...


Indeed!

The original Cron fluff was problematic to me due to the timeline. 65mm years ago? Also the whole Ctan thing to me is atrocious.I prefer a race of super advanced robobeings bent on cleansing the universe in their own way. All your organics, off my galaxy!
Now if you said 65,000 years ago, and a lot of it fits better.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 19:14:09


Post by: BrianDavion


 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 19:30:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 20:09:48


Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Basically, the necrons somehow rebelled against them (Dunno how they did or why the C'tan allowed them to have free will after putting them in metal bodies. 5th ed gonna 5th ed I guess) and broke them up into tiny little pieces that went everywhere. The necrons contained most but not all of them, and some escaped confinement.

I was always viewed the reason that the C'tan left the control protocols with the Silent King was because they did what was agreed. Why would they expect betrayal when they had upheld their end of the bargain? It's the Silent King who broke the pact, who turned against his allies, who forced his own people into the bio-transference forges. He started a genocidal war of extermination just to stop some possible civil war from occurring. Okay yeah, maybe the C'tan should have been worried about him.

I figure C'tan shards are gonna be treated like Greater Daemons. Some of the time they'll be defeated quite easily and some of the time the mere threat of one escaping it's bounds will terrify both the Necrons and their enemies'.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 21:25:26


Post by: Formosa


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 21:58:42


Post by: BrianDavion


 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !


then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 22:33:29


Post by: Arbitrator


Primaris, Cawl... actually, anything Gathering Storm onwards is pretty atrocious. At best, there's some passable stuff.

5th edition Grey Knight lore.

BrianDavion wrote:

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Fenris is crap but they're not going to kill off such a popular chapter's homeworld, so it'll be fine.

Cadia was lost, but we've already had lore where it took so long to claim it that they've built a massive string of Not!Cadias around it with so many reinforcements that the commanders are actually considering counter-attacks to retake the ruins.

Honestly Cadia falling was the best gosh darn thing to happen to the Imperium. It kickstarted Girlyman's revival, which meant we get his smug self-righteousness running around fixing the Imperium and the BESTIST-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE Primaris to swoop around and save everybody.The Imperium was screwed for all of a thirty seconds before Abbadon inadvertently fixed it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 22:43:06


Post by: Formosa


BrianDavion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !


then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.


Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 22:48:32


Post by: Kanluwen


 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 22:57:18


Post by: BrianDavion


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".


It's not worth arguing with people like that. they won't be able until 40k consists of chaos conquering evertything and all of 40k being the last great battle for Terra


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/19 23:25:22


Post by: godardc


Everything that came after 5th or 6th ed, I guess ?
The old 13th Black Crusade was PERFECT.
As others have pointed out, GW should have let the setting "stagnate". They managed to get it perfect, just before Midnight.
Then, they could have told us thousands of stories through the millenia.
But no.
They had to make the setting "progress" and to "revamp" and "refresh" lines, and brought us primais, centurions and others stupid abominations. And we still have finecast aspect warriors...
I thought 40k was reaching a new Golden Age, really. Now I know I was wrong.
I was so wrong.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 00:25:06


Post by: AegisGrimm


Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 00:30:51


Post by: Crimson


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.

Yep. One of my pet peeves. If they wanted to add a robot men army, they already hat perfect background for them. Instead they chose to painfully insert them into the Eldar lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 00:40:05


Post by: Viridian


Personally Draigo, realistically its more then likely 'The Second Bloodtide' it edges closer to being a PR disaster. You really don't want to flirt with supporting violence against women or misogyny. I got nothing against the basic ideas founding 40k. You can have all the guy guy universe you want but this story is where some will start pointing as evidence. The story itself is kind of trap as if the roles where reversed some guys would have issues with it I'm sure. To me it makes more sense if the roles where reversed as paladins are chivalrous inclined. The story could of been just cashing checks in and calling it a life on both sides. That wouldn't of happened cause of the book it was published in, so that leaves us with not printing it to begin with.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 01:19:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Viridian wrote:
Personally Draigo, realistically its more then likely 'The Second Bloodtide' it edges closer to being a PR disaster. You really don't want to flirt with supporting violence against women or misogyny. I got nothing against the basic ideas founding 40k. You can have all the guy guy universe you want but this story is where some will start pointing as evidence. The story itself is kind of trap as if the roles where reversed some guys would have issues with it I'm sure. To me it makes more sense if the roles where reversed as paladins are chivalrous inclined. The story could of been just cashing checks in and calling it a life on both sides. That wouldn't of happened cause of the book it was published in, so that leaves us with not printing it to begin with.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide

40k is violent against everyone. That's stupid reasoning on your end.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 01:44:57


Post by: Frazzled


 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !


I would rather see Orks Waugh ing against chaos myself.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 01:59:38


Post by: BrianDavion


 Frazzled wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Corennus wrote:
Worst Lore:

The shitstorm that came out of the 13th Black Crusade.

Not only is the Imperium NOT in deadly danger but suddenly it has thousands of Primaris Marines, a new Primarch, and everything that came before this might as well have been rubbed out and scribbled over.



except if you actually read the IoM IS in deadly danger. things are grimmer then they've ever been, the Gulliman's return and the primaris Marines basicly are all thats stopped the collapse of the IoM


Yeah, the fact that Cadia fell, the EoT grew and the Imperium is split in two is a big problem.


And yet so far all I have read is the imperium winning every battle, let's get some novels about chaos kicking the crap out of the imperium and guiliman losing a string of worlds that actually matter, macragge would be a good one !


I would rather see Orks Waugh ing against chaos myself.


that would be moderately more intreasting then just an endless list of chaos victories, show us chaos forces carving out their little empires (which we HAVE seen) and show us chaos having to deal with it. Chaos up until now has been much been a "they strike from the ey and return once they get what they want" narraitve. giving us examples of chaos attempting to consolidate large swaths of territory would indeed be intreasting


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 02:05:20


Post by: Grimgold


 Arbitrator wrote:
Primaris, Cawl... actually, anything Gathering Storm onwards is pretty atrocious. At best, there's some passable stuff.

5th edition Grey Knight lore.

BrianDavion wrote:

then you haven't read much. Fenris is in gak shape, Cadia is LOST. I'm sorry but "total defeat" isn't going to happen. this is a war game, no one's gonna win.

Fenris is crap but they're not going to kill off such a popular chapter's homeworld, so it'll be fine.

Cadia was lost, but we've already had lore where it took so long to claim it that they've built a massive string of Not!Cadias around it with so many reinforcements that the commanders are actually considering counter-attacks to retake the ruins.

Honestly Cadia falling was the best gosh darn thing to happen to the Imperium. It kickstarted Girlyman's revival, which meant we get his smug self-righteousness running around fixing the Imperium and the BESTIST-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE-ELITE Primaris to swoop around and save everybody.The Imperium was screwed for all of a thirty seconds before Abbadon inadvertently fixed it.


Russ had a vision of Abaddon killing the emperor back in the HH, and the black legion books make it pretty clear that the 13th Black Crusade can't be stopped. Plus there are a lots of custodes fighting black legion in the custodes codex, not exactly a subtle reference. The plot is advancing, and let's face it Bobby G is much more concerned with saving ultramar than he is the imperium as a whole.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 03:24:18


Post by: Dwro1234


Honestly, I just cant wait until they "rediscover" the lost legions... just a whole new realm of models and codexes etc. more ways for me to spend my money, because i am too stupid to realize that i am just like fish with bait right in front of me. I know better, but in the end i will buy the models, play them on the table, and wait for newer ones to come out,...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 06:17:55


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, I was always bummed back in 2nd edition that when the Necrons came out they weren't eventually revealed to be Men of Iron back for revenge.
.

Oh I don't know about that. There's still some room left for necron involvement with the Men of Iron incident. The void dragon is said to have control over machines, after all, and they could easily say that the Men of Iron happened due to the void dragon influencing the robots and turning them against humanity. They could even say the MoI were based off of some discovered necron tech, which is how the dragon got control of them.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 07:20:55


Post by: Just Tony


Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists getting written out as captured by Dark Eldar solely based on Dave Taylor getting his mini captured in a game.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 07:48:44


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Frazzled wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah that's actually kinda cool...


Indeed!

The original Cron fluff was problematic to me due to the timeline. 65mm years ago? Also the whole Ctan thing to me is atrocious.I prefer a race of super advanced robobeings bent on cleansing the universe in their own way. All your organics, off my galaxy!
Now if you said 65,000 years ago, and a lot of it fits better.


65 million is way more believable. That's really not a long time in terms of evolution (it's as long ago to the Imperium as the dinosaurs are to us).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 08:39:07


Post by: GamerGuy


Hey all,

So I'd like to voice a slightly unpopular opinion. Not the smartest move for someone who doesn't deal well with being screamed at on the internet but here goes....

I was actually quite pleased they brought Guilliman back.

I know right? the guy who plays *ultramarines* and has an *ultramarines* profile pic likes the Ultramarines primarch... but let me stop you there?

-While I despise the new primaris (bar maybe the new redemptor dread, that big brute is what everyone wanted in scale from the AOBR artwork as a 12yr old)... I like Guilliman on the tabletop for the following reasons:

-Yes, he looks like he just wandered through a portal from age of sigmar rick n morty style... Yes, the fluff surrounding his awakening with Eldar and being just in time to save terra was a little poor... but purely in terms of his tabletop presence I like him.

-He's a trophy kill for players! he's not invincible, and killing him is very satisfying...

-But moreover... I don't play a hyper optimised list. that's not to say my lists are poor, and some of you may have seen me and my lists, or read my comments on people's lists trying to inject a little competitive sting to weaker forces... guilty as charged, sometimes I get competitive... and what Guilliman brings to the game is versatility for me as a player. I can run a fluffy, marine heavy light support list for fun in casual/ narrative games/intro games for new players, but also he allows me to instantly turn up the heat with his presence without having to go out and buy, build and (god forbid) PAINT a whole new army just to play at a higher level...

I know its not a popular opinion and fear some people will begin their furious keyboard warrior crusade shortly after this post; but I can't say I care too much. the fluff for him was poor but not the worst.... and honestly as an addition to many collections he's a boon of damage output that, used in the right settings, shouldn't spoil anyone's fun.

Just my 2 pence,
GamerGuy


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 09:11:49


Post by: Formosa


BrianDavion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".


It's not worth arguing with people like that. they won't be able until 40k consists of chaos conquering evertything and all of 40k being the last great battle for Terra


Wrong, what I want is an imperium teetering on the edge, I want meaningful battles rather than imperium winning all the time, chaos, orks, dark eldar, tau, nids all need novels showing that the imperium is being battered and losing.... slowly, but nope, all we have so far is dark imperium (good book), more needs to be done.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 09:45:10


Post by: BrianDavion


 Formosa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".


It's not worth arguing with people like that. they won't be able until 40k consists of chaos conquering evertything and all of 40k being the last great battle for Terra


Wrong, what I want is an imperium teetering on the edge, I want meaningful battles rather than imperium winning all the time, chaos, orks, dark eldar, tau, nids all need novels showing that the imperium is being battered and losing.... slowly, but nope, all we have so far is dark imperium (good book), more needs to be done.



thing is, the IoM is going to win the meaningful battles (assuming they don't get dragged into a long ass stale mate ala armageddon etc) more often then not because they're defending. if you wanna preserve your game setting you need to err on the side of the status quo. otherwise you get a confused mess like what Battletech has become


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 10:09:04


Post by: Formosa


BrianDavion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".


It's not worth arguing with people like that. they won't be able until 40k consists of chaos conquering evertything and all of 40k being the last great battle for Terra


Wrong, what I want is an imperium teetering on the edge, I want meaningful battles rather than imperium winning all the time, chaos, orks, dark eldar, tau, nids all need novels showing that the imperium is being battered and losing.... slowly, but nope, all we have so far is dark imperium (good book), more needs to be done.



thing is, the IoM is going to win the meaningful battles (assuming they don't get dragged into a long ass stale mate ala armageddon etc) more often then not because they're defending. if you wanna preserve your game setting you need to err on the side of the status quo. otherwise you get a confused mess like what Battletech has become


Thing is, they have broken the status quo, so they need to do something with it before the interest peters out, basically exactly like your battletech analogy, how long have we been waiting for ilClan now?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 11:16:23


Post by: Grimtuff


 Just Tony wrote:
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists getting written out as captured by Dark Eldar solely based on Dave Taylor getting his mini captured in a game.


How so? Plenty of things that happen in IRL battle reports make it into the lore of the game, not least of Captain Tycho and Sanctuary 101.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 12:08:33


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Zenithfleet wrote:


A quick fix for Necron fluff

If I could change one thing about the 3rd ed Oldcrons, I'd steal a couple of ideas from Doctor Who:

Firstly, I'd reveal that their Gauss-flayer guns are actually extremely painful teleporters. If you're shot by one, you're not zapped through the Warp like regular 40K teleportation; Necrons don't like that crazy place. Instead you're taken apart atom by atom and beamed to a tomb complex to be reassembled from the inside out, sans armour and weapons, in classic sf matter transmission style.

And once they've got you, they convert you into a new Necron. Just like the Cybermen (or the Daleks now and then). Doesn't matter who you are. Ork, Eldar, Human, Tau, whatever. Pariah gene people might be especially useful, but it works on most humanoid races. Anything the Necrons can't convert, such as a Tyranid or a vehicle, they just destroy.

That would make the whole 'harvesting' angle much scarier IMO. Necrons don't just kill planetary populations and leave no trace--they vanish them because they're converting them all into fresh Necrons. Possibly the victims remain aware in some sense, forced to obey orders in an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' situation. Or maybe they're stripped of all emotion--which would deprive the Warp of emotional energy.

The more they kill, the more Necrons there are--just like fantasy Undead--and the weaker the Warp becomes. So there's no need to muck around with complicated hints about pariah genes and ancient devices to cut off the Warp from the real universe. All the Necrons have to do is go to war. It's very hard to permanently destroy a Necron once it's created (it just phases out)... but every enemy killed by a Necron is added to their ranks. Every victory creates fresh troops and calms the raging emotions of the galaxy.

Eventually, when every sapient being is a robotic zombie, Chaos will flicker and die out and the galaxy will be at peace. The peace... of the grave! Dun dun dun.

It's just a rough fanwank idea that would need a bit of finessing, but there you go.




I really like this.

My pet theory was always that the Necrons wanted to kill the warp gods by killing their food, basically every sentient being in the galaxy.

They are the lords of Order, and there's nothing more orderly than a dead world.

And they're whispering to the Emperor... Here's a way to put down your burden, join our agenda...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 12:18:00


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:


A quick fix for Necron fluff

If I could change one thing about the 3rd ed Oldcrons, I'd steal a couple of ideas from Doctor Who:

Firstly, I'd reveal that their Gauss-flayer guns are actually extremely painful teleporters. If you're shot by one, you're not zapped through the Warp like regular 40K teleportation; Necrons don't like that crazy place. Instead you're taken apart atom by atom and beamed to a tomb complex to be reassembled from the inside out, sans armour and weapons, in classic sf matter transmission style.

And once they've got you, they convert you into a new Necron. Just like the Cybermen (or the Daleks now and then). Doesn't matter who you are. Ork, Eldar, Human, Tau, whatever. Pariah gene people might be especially useful, but it works on most humanoid races. Anything the Necrons can't convert, such as a Tyranid or a vehicle, they just destroy.

That would make the whole 'harvesting' angle much scarier IMO. Necrons don't just kill planetary populations and leave no trace--they vanish them because they're converting them all into fresh Necrons. Possibly the victims remain aware in some sense, forced to obey orders in an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' situation. Or maybe they're stripped of all emotion--which would deprive the Warp of emotional energy.

The more they kill, the more Necrons there are--just like fantasy Undead--and the weaker the Warp becomes. So there's no need to muck around with complicated hints about pariah genes and ancient devices to cut off the Warp from the real universe. All the Necrons have to do is go to war. It's very hard to permanently destroy a Necron once it's created (it just phases out)... but every enemy killed by a Necron is added to their ranks. Every victory creates fresh troops and calms the raging emotions of the galaxy.

Eventually, when every sapient being is a robotic zombie, Chaos will flicker and die out and the galaxy will be at peace. The peace... of the grave! Dun dun dun.

It's just a rough fanwank idea that would need a bit of finessing, but there you go.




I really like this.

My pet theory was always that the Necrons wanted to kill the warp gods by killing their food, basically every sentient being in the galaxy.

They are the lords of Order, and there's nothing more orderly than a dead world.

And they're whispering to the Emperor... Here's a way to put down your burden, join our agenda...


Yeah, other than the teleporting gun idea, its a pretty solid concept.
As a oldcron fan, I approve.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 12:43:23


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


It could be copying your brain for uploading into a necromancy body.

What was the doctor who where someone got trapped in a Dlaek and could only say Exterminate? Something like that.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 13:20:38


Post by: topaxygouroun i


I really hate the Tyranid fluff.

"The hive fleet was descending upon the planet all powerfull, and nothing seemed to be able to stop them. But the very last moment, one brave sergeant managed a one-in-a-million shot in the eye of the X (old one/tyrant/swarmlord etc). The beast was dead and without its synaptic powers the whole tyranid army destroyed itself and also a couple of leviathans exploded and the whole Hive Fleet passed into oblivion."

Repeat for the next hive fleet.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 13:32:06


Post by: SickSix


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Riptide. It fundamentally changed the Tau way of war from combined assets to "Big robots!".

The old fluff had heavy tanks and titans being taken by combined efforts of Hammerheads and aircraft. Then it was retconned that instead they developed the Riptide to fight them, even though it was worse at the job.

The Tau had also regarded the Imperium's use of Titans as wasteful. Putting that many resources into a single thing means it can only be in one place and it is only one target. Spreading them out amongst multiple units gave you more flexibility and the loss of any one single element was not a huge loss. That went straight out the window to be replaced by the Stormsurge and Supremacy.

I don't think a single unit has so drastically altered the fluff of an army in such a way since. It would be like Guilliman was only introduced in 8th edition and inserted into the victory over the tyranids as justification (can't remember which hive fleet it was).


I actually sold off a sizeable Tau army becuase of this. Tau was actually what really got me going in 40k the first time. I loved their original background and strategies.

I did keep my Kroot as I am hoping for some sort of expanded rules for them one day. Like the old Chapter Approved army list and custom units.

So other than above, I have to say the way new units have been 'always there' for Marines has always been terrible. Chibi-hawk was first. Then those so bad its laughable Centurions. And now everything Primaris. It is objectively bad story telling. I will not get over it and will never buy them. I will play 32-38k Warhammer for the rest of my days until GW and the local meta basically make that impossible. And unfortunately I think I am getting on the Heresy train close to the end of line.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/20 22:05:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Please do tell how it's objective.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 06:41:02


Post by: Grimgold


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah that's actually kinda cool...


Indeed!

The original Cron fluff was problematic to me due to the timeline. 65mm years ago? Also the whole Ctan thing to me is atrocious.I prefer a race of super advanced robobeings bent on cleansing the universe in their own way. All your organics, off my galaxy!
Now if you said 65,000 years ago, and a lot of it fits better.


65 million is way more believable. That's really not a long time in terms of evolution (it's as long ago to the Imperium as the dinosaurs are to us).


The milky way is 13.5 billion years old, and the elements to create life started to be common enough to form life about 10 billion years ago, the earth is 4.5 billion years old. The fact the Necrontyr were only say 65 to 70 million years older than humanity is an amazing coincidence given the approximately 5 billion year range of possible values. Without even coming near the limits imposed, you could easily have civilizations billions years older than humanity (the C'Tan call themselves the first, and while we get that from an unreliable narrator, there is little doubt they are billions of years old).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 07:21:01


Post by: Spetulhu


topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 08:11:28


Post by: darkcloak


Spetulhu wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


I agree. Biotech is silly. Maybe if a Tyranid could become a Space Marine, then they'd be cool...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 11:01:43


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 darkcloak wrote:


I agree. Biotech is silly. Maybe if a Tyranid could become a Space Marine, then they'd be cool...


They can't but Space Marines can become Tyranids...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 11:20:36


Post by: thekingofkings


worst lore in 40k, thats easy "emo space terminator egyptians" for necrons. They went from a terrifying unknowable evil to those emo kids we dont want to talk to.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 14:01:24


Post by: Zenithfleet


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:


A quick fix for Necron fluff

If I could change one thing about the 3rd ed Oldcrons, I'd steal a couple of ideas from Doctor Who:

Firstly, I'd reveal that their Gauss-flayer guns are actually extremely painful teleporters. If you're shot by one, you're not zapped through the Warp like regular 40K teleportation; Necrons don't like that crazy place. Instead you're taken apart atom by atom and beamed to a tomb complex to be reassembled from the inside out, sans armour and weapons, in classic sf matter transmission style.

And once they've got you, they convert you into a new Necron. Just like the Cybermen (or the Daleks now and then). Doesn't matter who you are. Ork, Eldar, Human, Tau, whatever. Pariah gene people might be especially useful, but it works on most humanoid races. Anything the Necrons can't convert, such as a Tyranid or a vehicle, they just destroy.

That would make the whole 'harvesting' angle much scarier IMO. Necrons don't just kill planetary populations and leave no trace--they vanish them because they're converting them all into fresh Necrons. Possibly the victims remain aware in some sense, forced to obey orders in an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' situation. Or maybe they're stripped of all emotion--which would deprive the Warp of emotional energy.

The more they kill, the more Necrons there are--just like fantasy Undead--and the weaker the Warp becomes. So there's no need to muck around with complicated hints about pariah genes and ancient devices to cut off the Warp from the real universe. All the Necrons have to do is go to war. It's very hard to permanently destroy a Necron once it's created (it just phases out)... but every enemy killed by a Necron is added to their ranks. Every victory creates fresh troops and calms the raging emotions of the galaxy.

Eventually, when every sapient being is a robotic zombie, Chaos will flicker and die out and the galaxy will be at peace. The peace... of the grave! Dun dun dun.

It's just a rough fanwank idea that would need a bit of finessing, but there you go.




I really like this.

My pet theory was always that the Necrons wanted to kill the warp gods by killing their food, basically every sentient being in the galaxy.

They are the lords of Order, and there's nothing more orderly than a dead world.

And they're whispering to the Emperor... Here's a way to put down your burden, join our agenda...


Yeah, other than the teleporting gun idea, its a pretty solid concept.
As a oldcron fan, I approve.


Thanks guys Tuomas Pirinen mentioned somewhere (in a convention appearance?) that the opposite of Chaos isn't Law, but Undead. At least in Fantasy.

Just to be clear, I imagine the Gauss-teleporter guns to work just like regular Gauss flayers... with an extra-nasty twist.

The 3rd ed codex describes them as disintegrating you atom by atom--or layer by layer, starting with the skin, then the musculature, then the bones--and pulling the atoms toward the gun.

My idea is simply that the atoms are hoovered up by the gun and sent back to the tomb for reassembly. You're rebuilt from the inside out--skeleton first, then muscles, then skin... inside some kind of holding tank, ready to be processed.

(I should probably use the term 'matter transmission' rather than 'teleportation'. The former is more classic science fiction, appropriate to Necrons, while the latter is associated with the warp in 40K.)

To any observer, it still *looks* like the target is being flayed alive. And it definitely feels like it. But the nightmare doesn't end there...

In modelling terms this could help justify the infamous glowy green plastic, which not only appears as weapon rods, but in places like the Monolith's door. You could see that as a visual clue to the relationship between the flayer-teleporters and the door-portals.

It's true that sometimes victims are only wounded, or at least that partial remains are left over. Still, the 3rd ed fluff always emphasised that whole settlements just vanished when the Necrons showed up. As far as I can tell, that's because Gauss flayers leave no trace of the victims in most cases. That's a spooky image in itself--but how much creepier if the victims were also doomed to become Necrons?

Likewise, there are indeed references to Necrons taking the 'unlucky children' (pariahs) away. That's a spooky idea to be sure--but why stop at one when you could harvest the lot? Much more efficient. (And the idea of a Lord carrying a kid in its arms always seemed a bit silly to me.)

It seems simpler to just say they flay-teleport everyone. Makes the 'red harvest' a bit more appropriate. The 'normies' get converted into Necron Warriors, the soulless become Pariahs, and the ones who remember what they were due to a glitch in the processing go insane and become Flayed Ones. (Thanks for that last idea--I like it!)

If the Necrons want to destroy something full stop, they can just let the disassembled atoms drift clear of the gun after flaying the target, rather than bothering to forward the victim to their home address. The flayers are effective as weapons whether or not the additional matter-transmission function is engaged. (No wonder they dislike Tyranids. Damn things don't even make decent robot zombies.)


@Kid_Kyoto: The specific Dalek episodes I was thinking of were the reality TV show episodes from the end of Eccleston's run (the first NuWho series from 2005). I'll admit to a slight Mass Effect influence in the mix too. But the main idea is to get the parallels to the Undead in Warhammer Fantasy a bit more--that "as we are, you shall be" terror of the living dead.

@CthuluIsSpy: Yeah, the story in the back of the 3rd ed codex about the fate of the galaxy if the Necrons win is my favourite bit of fluff in that book. The only section that genuinely feels Lovecraftian and creepy to me.


Undead vs Oldcrons

Thinking about it some more, it occurs to me that if 5th ed Newcrons are Tomb Kings in Space, 3rd ed Oldcrons are Vampire Counts in Space. You've got:

-a mass of mindless, faceless, obedient skelliebots
-ghosts (Wraiths) and beasties (Tomb Spyders and Scarabs)
-fleshy ghoulies that get all gruesome and bloody in your face (Flayed Ones)
-Wights that retain intelligence and personality and can command the others (Necron Lords)
-a small number of immortal, beautiful, sinister, insanely powerful and nigh-unkillable masters who command the hordes (C'tan are even referred to as 'star vampires'...)

Can't believe I never noticed it before. But it makes me feel a bit more comfortable with the whole "C'tan are the real stars of the show" angle.

Of course, the original concept for Necrons appeared when the Undead in Fantasy were one undivided faction, which is why you get Egyptian references as well as gothic horror.


Other stuff

The 65-million-year thing always seemed like the sort of thing a bunch of arts and history majors (i.e. the GW writers) picked because it's the one mass extinction everyone's heard of, even if you're not a science buff or a paleontologist. The trouble is that it has an accepted scientific explanation (a big rock), so it doesn't really fit with the idea of a galaxy-wide plague or bio-meltdown.


It's worth noting that two of the contentious issues--Necrons and C'tan being shoved into the backstory as ancient Big Bads, and moving the timeline forward--were both brainchilds of Andy Chambers as far as I can tell. He otherwise gets a good rap for running 40K back in the day, but the Oldcrons do feel like his personal 40K fanfic idea at times. At least they were introduced gradually, over many years of coy references.


Tyranid fluff

I always thought it was a bit ridiculous that Tyranids have DNA. I can just about buy everything in the Milky Way Galaxy using the same molecule for its genetic template system, maybe through panspermia over billions of years... but creatures from another galaxy entirely? Yeah, sure.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 14:46:40


Post by: Arbitrator


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".

Nameless, throw away worlds mean bugger all both to the narrative at large and it's attempts at giving the atmosphere of 'Imperium on the brink'. It's a failing of the writers that we're told OH NO IT'S THE DARKEST HOUR OF THE IMPERIIUUMM but from the tone, things haven't been going this good in a long time.

Actually the virus bombing served to only make Chaos look weaker. Why? Because they can recover from it. The planets lost in Dark Imperium can be recovered, when previously a Nurgle infestation on the levels of Mortarian getting involved would have turned them into Quarantine Worlds at best. Hell, look at Tallarn for what a virus bombing was previously meant to signal. Now they can just shrug it off, because Gulliman is THAT awesome and the Primarisues just THAT great.

Daemon Primarchs are still just being used as a way of making Imperial characters look awesome because of their immortality. Celestine suffers from this to a degree as well, but they're more willing to drag her through a meatgrinder on account of not being a Space Marine and there's not a dozen of her.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 17:58:45


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Arbitrator wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".

Nameless, throw away worlds mean bugger all both to the narrative at large and it's attempts at giving the atmosphere of 'Imperium on the brink'. It's a failing of the writers that we're told OH NO IT'S THE DARKEST HOUR OF THE IMPERIIUUMM but from the tone, things haven't been going this good in a long time.
Cadia fell. There are few worlds more important than that. What WOULD you have been happy with? Terra itself?


Considering it's the home base of the Ultramarines Chapter, many worlds have been destroyed in Ultramar, on record. We have:
Percepton Primus
Nuceria (presumably)
Armatura
Sotha
Iax
Prandium
which are all destroyed. That's not exactly insignificant, to be fair.


Actually the virus bombing served to only make Chaos look weaker. Why? Because they can recover from it. The planets lost in Dark Imperium can be recovered, when previously a Nurgle infestation on the levels of Mortarian getting involved would have turned them into Quarantine Worlds at best. Hell, look at Tallarn for what a virus bombing was previously meant to signal. Now they can just shrug it off, because Gulliman is THAT awesome and the Primarisues just THAT great.
I mean, not really?
It will take a VERY long time to recover. Not to mention, what did you THINK Guilliman would do? Leave a daemon world on his doorstep? Of course he'd dedicate forces to making wure that never happened. He's not stupid. I would have thought it more lazy if GW had just said "Mortarion took a planet and Guilliman did nothing to stop the unsupported, logistically-isolated world from thriving".
Plus, what makes you think that Virus Bombing Iax won't make it like Tallarn? You know Tallarn still supports life? And it's supported (and has been for ages, before this was ever relevant) that the Ultramarines are very good at terraforming desolate worlds (Quintarn, Masali, Tarantus and Calth).

I don't know how much you know of the lore, but Virus Bombs have nothing to do with the Primaris Marines.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 18:20:19


Post by: Grimtuff


Spetulhu wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


IOW "These extragalactic beings don't conform to what we as humans know about physics so therefore they're stupid."

No.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 18:41:08


Post by: Iracundus


Tyranids are an example of "life finding a way". Over the years IRL, people have been consistently surprised at what hostile conditions life can survive under. People at first though life was impossible in the abyssal zones of the ocean, yet now we know life survives around hydrothermal vents, in absolute darkness and at pressures that would crush most submarines. Bacteria have survived for a year on the exposed surfaces of spacecraft in space. Bacteria have survived ludicrous amounts of radiation, lethal to most other life. Dormant seeds since the last Ice Age have been successfully germinated, none the worse for wear.

Tyranids take that premise a bit further, with the added handwavium of psychic powers. If Space Marines can go into suspended animation for years or centuries, why not Tyranids?



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 22:52:15


Post by: Mr Nobody


 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.


I would argue that primarchs returning in 40k is good because we get to see the daemon primarchs.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/21 23:29:20


Post by: BrianDavion


 Arbitrator wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Fenris is pre Gathering storm, cadia is 13th black crusade 999.M41, so I reiterate my completely correct point, as it stands, the imperium appears to be winning the war, they have not shown adequately that Chaos is kicking arse, they are failing at that, instead we have

Technologically resurgent imperium (small but happening)
Primarysues
Cawl.... ergh
Guilliman being everywhere at once
Those pesky deamon primarchs always "just" losing

the list goes on

Have you seriously not read the big rulebook?

Mortarion corrupted several worlds of the Ultramar Sector. The world of Iax, "once a verdant garden world" was left in ruins with Mortarion withdrawing from a deadlocked fight against Guilliman under the cover of a fething virus bomb.

Check pages 152 to 167 in the BRB. It basically gives brief rundowns of exactly what you're wanting to see in the form of "Chaos kicking arse".

Nameless, throw away worlds mean bugger all both to the narrative at large and it's attempts at giving the atmosphere of 'Imperium on the brink'. It's a failing of the writers that we're told OH NO IT'S THE DARKEST HOUR OF THE IMPERIIUUMM but from the tone, things haven't been going this good in a long time.

Actually the virus bombing served to only make Chaos look weaker. Why? Because they can recover from it. The planets lost in Dark Imperium can be recovered, when previously a Nurgle infestation on the levels of Mortarian getting involved would have turned them into Quarantine Worlds at best. Hell, look at Tallarn for what a virus bombing was previously meant to signal. Now they can just shrug it off, because Gulliman is THAT awesome and the Primarisues just THAT great.

Daemon Primarchs are still just being used as a way of making Imperial characters look awesome because of their immortality. Celestine suffers from this to a degree as well, but they're more willing to drag her through a meatgrinder on account of not being a Space Marine and there's not a dozen of her.



Iax may be recolonized but it'll be NOTHING like what it once was. theworld was a GARDEN WORLD, one of the crown jewels of Ultramar. It was described as "one of the most agriculturally productive worlds in the Imperium" it's loss is pretty signfcigent (I expect Ultramar will have food shortages for a time until they can adapt to it's loss) it's also not some randomly invented world created simply so it could be destroyed, Iax datyes all the way back to the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex. This is an old and valuable piece of real estate that was wiped off the map. Worlds like Iax and Krtonor are pretty important, you can't expect GW do go around killing all the major IoM worlds. Caida was just destroyed, to be frank anyone who says that isn't eneugh needs to give their head a shake


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 00:23:20


Post by: darkcloak


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:


I agree. Biotech is silly. Maybe if a Tyranid could become a Space Marine, then they'd be cool...


They can't but Space Marines can become Tyranids...


It's because Tyranids are girls isn't it?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 18:25:36


Post by: LunaWolvesLoyalist


Primaris Marines. The fluff is an insult to normal Marines and frankly they could have just said the new Marines were truscale and had better armor to account for the extra wound.

I actually like Primarchs and I like Cawl in concept.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 18:35:14


Post by: BDconrad


GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 18:42:45


Post by: BrianDavion


 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 19:08:53


Post by: Corennus


I agree that making the Necrons become more "humanised" and not soulless Terminator style machines makes them a lot less menacing.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 19:56:03


Post by: Earth127


Anything telling us hard numbers.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 20:43:32


Post by: BrianDavion


 Earth127 wrote:
Anything telling us hard numbers.


Have an exault sir


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 21:47:43


Post by: SickSix


BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 22:47:54


Post by: Albino Squirrel


 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/22 22:52:02


Post by: BrianDavion


 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


It's implies Russ had a hand in sanctioning other legions in the past but it's HARDLY stated outright he did. For all we know all those referances are to the "Night of the Wolf"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/23 08:16:56


Post by: Dakka Wolf


BrianDavion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


It's implies Russ had a hand in sanctioning other legions in the past but it's HARDLY stated outright he did. For all we know all those referances are to the "Night of the Wolf"


Finally! Nobody ever seems to think that "other legion" whose name is never mentioned was the World Eaters.
Russ was sent to sanction the World Eaters, Russ got whupped by Angron but the Space Wolves held every World Eater in the vicinity hostage until Angron let Russ go.
Both Primarchs claim victory both secretly believe they got beat. The Space Wolves on the other hand can claim they beat the World Eaters regardless of their Primarch's views on the matter.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/23 08:20:14


Post by: Nerak


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Backflipping terminators still wins for worst lore.

With multi lasers


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/23 12:35:42


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Um Dorns skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist battle barge (per the novel Space Marine). The captains use it for skrimshaw practice.

Suffice to say if he's alive he must be pretty pissed by now.


Retconned; now they have the bones of his hand(s?), that being all that was recovered from the Black Legion ship where he vanished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


You missed out twenty years of the fans: "Hey, you haven't told us what happened to these two guys. You suck!"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/23 15:30:55


Post by: Jorim


 Dakka Wolf wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


It's implies Russ had a hand in sanctioning other legions in the past but it's HARDLY stated outright he did. For all we know all those referances are to the "Night of the Wolf"


Finally! Nobody ever seems to think that "other legion" whose name is never mentioned was the World Eaters.
Russ was sent to sanction the World Eaters, Russ got whupped by Angron but the Space Wolves held every World Eater in the vicinity hostage until Angron let Russ go.
Both Primarchs claim victory both secretly believe they got beat. The Space Wolves on the other hand can claim they beat the World Eaters regardless of their Primarch's views on the matter.

Actually they didn 't during their duel Angron and Russ were surrounded by space wolfs and they both knew that if Angron killed Russ, his men would shoot him down.
In the battle itself more space wolfs fell than world eaters, but the we couldn't break through to Angron.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/24 11:55:24


Post by: flyingthruwater


Anything Matt Ward has had anything to do with... Dude would struggle to write a kids cartoon never mind anything with any depth at all


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/02/24 20:00:26


Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy


flyingthruwater wrote:
Anything Matt Ward has had anything to do with... Dude would struggle to write a kids cartoon never mind anything with any depth at all

You know, I think he could actually be a decent cartoon writer. His stuff is over the top (suitable for cartoons) but he does try to approach interesting themes and ideas (such as Draigo and his Sisyphean experience in the Warp).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 11:23:08


Post by: Ravemastaj


 Grimtuff wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


IOW "These extragalactic beings don't conform to what we as humans know about physics so therefore they're stupid."

No.


"Tyranids could never live through space travel as a biological life form."

Cue Space Marines fighting in Space. Without helmets.



Clearly, humanity has surpassed all life in all galaxies, even those completely alien.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 12:33:10


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


The way Imperium is often treated as a single monolithic nation state, Even though it's supposed to be a feudal empire like the Empire from Fantasy that it's based on.

The Feudal aspect is just be a great way to justify all the tabletop Imperium-vs-Imperium fights, as, say, a regions imperial kingdoms and guilds wrangle combatants to fight for them over who gets the writ to collect imperial tithes.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 12:41:21


Post by: Nurglitch


I don't want Graham McNeil to show me the 41st Millennium. I want him to tell me it, and to tell me it's super-awesome.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 12:46:47


Post by: Insectum7


topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


Are you joking? Tyranids are the most rational faction. Everybody else is effin humanoid in form and demeanor.

If biotech aliens is a trope, what are orks, elves, killer robots from outer space and demons from hell?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 13:08:54


Post by: Nurglitch


In novels Marines roll 6 for everything. In games, you roll D6s, to make it a game.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 13:14:23


Post by: Corennus


Worst lore ever written:

Guilliman returns. Better than space marine space marines arise. Imperium is torn in half by warp storms..




Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 14:30:11


Post by: Backspacehacker


Cawl


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 18:56:57


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


First Heretic:

"Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. In-stead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Magnus wouldn’t be drawn into this. ‘The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar. Already, there’s talk that compliance was achieved on Forty-Seven Sixteen with laudable speed. Settler fleets are en route, are they not?"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain.‘Some are. This one is not.’‘But the Eleventh Legion—’‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing.‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain.‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’
Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again"

Prospero Burns, Russ to Hawzer:

‘Never is a long time, skjald,’ he replies. ‘I’m tough, but I’m not that tough. Just because something’s never happened, it doesn’t mean it never will.’ ‘There’s a first time for everything.’ ‘Exactly,’ he grunts.
‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’ ‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’
I am lost for a reply. I am never sure when he is joking. We are looking towards the forest line. The first flakes of snow are fluttering down. ‘Are there wolves on Fenris?’ I ask. ‘Go and look for yourself,’ he tells me. ‘Go on"

There are lots of hints that the 6th legion done them in, nothing concrete though.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/08 19:09:47


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Spoiler:
Ravemastaj wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.


You're right, "biotech" and living weapons is such a silly scifi trope that one should always mercilessly mock it. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is too inefficient, living stuff would be dead stuff before a hive fleet got anywhere and the bugs would collapse and die in droves if the environment they were sent into - without suits - was the slightest bit off from what they need. Not that they'd be sent anywhere from a dead hive fleet, ofc, living matter just doesn't react well to cosmic radiation.

They don't even have the excuse of being demons from beyond our dimension.


IOW "These extragalactic beings don't conform to what we as humans know about physics so therefore they're stupid."

No.


"Tyranids could never live through space travel as a biological life form."

Cue Space Marines fighting in Space. Without helmets.



Clearly, humanity has surpassed all life in all galaxies, even those completely alien.


I wouldn't really count Primarchs for that discussion, but theres a difference between a godlike being fighting in space for a couple of hours vs what Tyranids do...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 00:58:08


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


topaxygouroun i wrote:
I really hate the Tyranid fluff.

"The hive fleet was descending upon the planet all powerfull, and nothing seemed to be able to stop them. But the very last moment, one brave sergeant managed a one-in-a-million shot in the eye of the X (old one/tyrant/swarmlord etc). The beast was dead and without its synaptic powers the whole tyranid army destroyed itself and also a couple of leviathans exploded and the whole Hive Fleet passed into oblivion."

Repeat for the next hive fleet.


Not true, the Tardigrade is a biological micro-animal that can survive in space, it hibernates, it can survive the extreme radiation and heat as well as sub 0 temperatures. That's why one theory of life on mars is that the tardigrade actually brought life to earth on a comets. The only major thing that is beyond the physics is the fact that they are exoskeletons, the weight would crush them, though its possible that they have a new type of physiology that allows them to hold up such weight etc. but Its scifi you have to suspend belief its a universe with daemons and psykers, I mean how realistic can you expect it will be... In reality though, we are the only examples of life, life elsewhere will probably similar to ours but we have no idea what life could be like elsewhere, the only life we have seen is carbon base, we have no idea about the capabilities of other forms of life.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:05:00


Post by: bibotot


They brought back Sigmar and Nagash in Fantasy. There's no reason to think they won't do the same to all the Primachs, even dead ones but not Horus because he is super-dead and it breaks the whole lore if Horus comes back.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:09:45


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


bibotot wrote:
They brought back Sigmar and Nagash in Fantasy. There's no reason to think they won't do the same to all the Primachs, even dead ones but not Horus because he is super-dead and it breaks the whole lore if Horus comes back.


Sanguinius, Ferrus etc. are all super-dead.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:09:54


Post by: BrianDavion


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


First Heretic:

"Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. In-stead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Magnus wouldn’t be drawn into this. ‘The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar. Already, there’s talk that compliance was achieved on Forty-Seven Sixteen with laudable speed. Settler fleets are en route, are they not?"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain.‘Some are. This one is not.’‘But the Eleventh Legion—’‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing.‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain.‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’
Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again"

Prospero Burns, Russ to Hawzer:

‘Never is a long time, skjald,’ he replies. ‘I’m tough, but I’m not that tough. Just because something’s never happened, it doesn’t mean it never will.’ ‘There’s a first time for everything.’ ‘Exactly,’ he grunts.
‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’ ‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’
I am lost for a reply. I am never sure when he is joking. We are looking towards the forest line. The first flakes of snow are fluttering down. ‘Are there wolves on Fenris?’ I ask. ‘Go and look for yourself,’ he tells me. ‘Go on"

There are lots of hints that the 6th legion done them in, nothing concrete though.


none of those hints are partiuclarly good ones, the first quote simply is Russ stating he'd rather not lose another sibling, reasonably innocent even if there are rumors and suspicions yes. the second quote proves nothing, especially as we have word of god that the Ultramarines rumor is false and just two salty word bearers talking gak.

The third definatly makes it sound like the Wolves may have killed the other two legions but... is it? we know Russ and the wolves fought Angron and the world eaters in the "Night of the Wolf" we also know Russ and the Lion fought, so there are other explinations for it beyond "he definatly killed those two legions"

So yeah It's certainly one interpretation, but it may not be the facts of the matter


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:18:02


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


First Heretic:

"Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. In-stead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Magnus wouldn’t be drawn into this. ‘The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar. Already, there’s talk that compliance was achieved on Forty-Seven Sixteen with laudable speed. Settler fleets are en route, are they not?"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain.‘Some are. This one is not.’‘But the Eleventh Legion—’‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing.‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain.‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’
Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again"

Prospero Burns, Russ to Hawzer:

‘Never is a long time, skjald,’ he replies. ‘I’m tough, but I’m not that tough. Just because something’s never happened, it doesn’t mean it never will.’ ‘There’s a first time for everything.’ ‘Exactly,’ he grunts.
‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’ ‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’
I am lost for a reply. I am never sure when he is joking. We are looking towards the forest line. The first flakes of snow are fluttering down. ‘Are there wolves on Fenris?’ I ask. ‘Go and look for yourself,’ he tells me. ‘Go on"

There are lots of hints that the 6th legion done them in, nothing concrete though.


none of those hints are partiuclarly good ones, the first quote simply is Russ stating he'd rather not lose another sibling, reasonably innocent even if there are rumors and suspicions yes. the second quote proves nothing, especially as we have word of god that the Ultramarines rumor is false and just two salty word bearers talking gak.

The third definatly makes it sound like the Wolves may have killed the other two legions but... is it? we know Russ and the wolves fought Angron and the world eaters in the "Night of the Wolf" we also know Russ and the Lion fought, so there are other explinations for it beyond "he definatly killed those two legions"

So yeah It's certainly one interpretation, but it may not be the facts of the matter




I didn't say it was proof, I said they were 'hints'. The WB's said themselves the Ultramarine thing was a rumour though how do you know it was false, you can't know that and if you use the 'least mutation' argument, one or both of the missing legions could have had very low gene-seed mutation rate.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:22:30


Post by: BrianDavion


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


First Heretic:

"Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. In-stead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Magnus wouldn’t be drawn into this. ‘The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar. Already, there’s talk that compliance was achieved on Forty-Seven Sixteen with laudable speed. Settler fleets are en route, are they not?"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain.‘Some are. This one is not.’‘But the Eleventh Legion—’‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing.‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain.‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’
Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again"

Prospero Burns, Russ to Hawzer:

‘Never is a long time, skjald,’ he replies. ‘I’m tough, but I’m not that tough. Just because something’s never happened, it doesn’t mean it never will.’ ‘There’s a first time for everything.’ ‘Exactly,’ he grunts.
‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’ ‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’
I am lost for a reply. I am never sure when he is joking. We are looking towards the forest line. The first flakes of snow are fluttering down. ‘Are there wolves on Fenris?’ I ask. ‘Go and look for yourself,’ he tells me. ‘Go on"

There are lots of hints that the 6th legion done them in, nothing concrete though.


none of those hints are partiuclarly good ones, the first quote simply is Russ stating he'd rather not lose another sibling, reasonably innocent even if there are rumors and suspicions yes. the second quote proves nothing, especially as we have word of god that the Ultramarines rumor is false and just two salty word bearers talking gak.

The third definatly makes it sound like the Wolves may have killed the other two legions but... is it? we know Russ and the wolves fought Angron and the world eaters in the "Night of the Wolf" we also know Russ and the Lion fought, so there are other explinations for it beyond "he definatly killed those two legions"

So yeah It's certainly one interpretation, but it may not be the facts of the matter




I didn't say it was proof, I said they were 'hints'. The WB's said themselves the Ultramarine thing was a rumour though how do you know it was false, you can't know that and if you use the 'least mutation' argument, one or both of the missing legions could have had very low gene-seed mutation rate.


Because the author said so.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:25:29


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
 SickSix wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BDconrad wrote:
GW: Hey guys, there are two missing Primarchs that you can totally do whatever you want with! Make up the story yourself!

A few years pass.

GW: Never mind, Leman Russ killed them all and the other Primarchs watched, can't be your dudes anymore.

Sorry, this one always got on my nerves like nothing else...


except we don't know Russ killed them. they've been pretty vague (to the point of sillyness) with the missing primarchs


Not exactly. We know Russ and his Legion put down one of the two missing legions and its Primarch. The other... not really sure.

It is looking like Russ exterminated one and the other was wholey wiped out in the Ragdan Xenocide.


We don't know that Russ wiped out one of the missing legions. Where does it say that? That wasn't stated in Prospero Burns. Is there another book that spells this out?


First Heretic:

"Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. In-stead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Magnus wouldn’t be drawn into this. ‘The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar. Already, there’s talk that compliance was achieved on Forty-Seven Sixteen with laudable speed. Settler fleets are en route, are they not?"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain.‘Some are. This one is not.’‘But the Eleventh Legion—’‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing.‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain.‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’
Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again"

Prospero Burns, Russ to Hawzer:

‘Never is a long time, skjald,’ he replies. ‘I’m tough, but I’m not that tough. Just because something’s never happened, it doesn’t mean it never will.’ ‘There’s a first time for everything.’ ‘Exactly,’ he grunts.
‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’ ‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’
I am lost for a reply. I am never sure when he is joking. We are looking towards the forest line. The first flakes of snow are fluttering down. ‘Are there wolves on Fenris?’ I ask. ‘Go and look for yourself,’ he tells me. ‘Go on"

There are lots of hints that the 6th legion done them in, nothing concrete though.


none of those hints are partiuclarly good ones, the first quote simply is Russ stating he'd rather not lose another sibling, reasonably innocent even if there are rumors and suspicions yes. the second quote proves nothing, especially as we have word of god that the Ultramarines rumor is false and just two salty word bearers talking gak.

The third definatly makes it sound like the Wolves may have killed the other two legions but... is it? we know Russ and the wolves fought Angron and the world eaters in the "Night of the Wolf" we also know Russ and the Lion fought, so there are other explinations for it beyond "he definatly killed those two legions"

So yeah It's certainly one interpretation, but it may not be the facts of the matter




I didn't say it was proof, I said they were 'hints'. The WB's said themselves the Ultramarine thing was a rumour though how do you know it was false, you can't know that and if you use the 'least mutation' argument, one or both of the missing legions could have had very low gene-seed mutation rate.


Because the author said so.


The author didn't say so.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:43:13


Post by: BrianDavion


Yes he did,

Q - I've always wanted to know with all Black Library authors how much the stories main details are already decide? Because there is no way that an author can just include such a massive spoiler such as The Ultramarines absorbing the missing legions without Black Library's say so.

A- ADB - Practically no details are already decided, unless it's a famous battle, or something. (In regards to the First Heretic revelation) Well, you probably shouldn't believe that, dude. The characters in the novels are just making guesses, or hinting at an unknowable truth. It's possibly true, sure, but as it stands right now, GW won't reveal the truth about those Legions; all hints in the Horus Heresy series are just possibilities. Black Library never tell us to do anything. That's not really how they work. They check facts, and where the Horus Heresy is concerned, we have regular (long) meetings to discuss the series with Games Workshop's Head of Intellectual Property.




So yeah, ADB outright said "DFO NOT BELIVE THAT"




Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 02:49:28


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


BrianDavion wrote:
Yes he did,

Q - I've always wanted to know with all Black Library authors how much the stories main details are already decide? Because there is no way that an author can just include such a massive spoiler such as The Ultramarines absorbing the missing legions without Black Library's say so.

A- ADB - Practically no details are already decided, unless it's a famous battle, or something. (In regards to the First Heretic revelation) Well, you probably shouldn't believe that, dude. The characters in the novels are just making guesses, or hinting at an unknowable truth. It's possibly true, sure, but as it stands right now, GW won't reveal the truth about those Legions; all hints in the Horus Heresy series are just possibilities. Black Library never tell us to do anything. That's not really how they work. They check facts, and where the Horus Heresy is concerned, we have regular (long) meetings to discuss the series with Games Workshop's Head of Intellectual Property.




So yeah, ADB outright said "DFO NOT BELIVE THAT"




No he didn't lol. He says you 'probably' shouldn't believe that, but its a possibility, he just said don't take it as cannon.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 03:03:49


Post by: BrianDavion


He's also said elsewhere he didn't intend for it to be anything more then jelous mutters of word bearers who refuse to give Gulliman his due


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 03:11:16


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


BrianDavion wrote:
He's also said elsewhere he didn't intend for it to be anything more then jelous mutters of word bearers who refuse to give Gulliman his due


It wasn't written that way at all, it was an off-hand statement, it didn't put any shade on the Ultramarines at all, so I doubt that. Plus Guilliman wasn't even mentioned, had nothing to do with it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 03:22:26


Post by: Niiai


In the good old days the SM where police. There is a particularly good picture of 2 SM laying down the law on one artist with a canister of paint. I cannot help but feel all of this that have come later might not be for the better.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 03:23:39


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Niiai wrote:
In the good old days the SM where police. There is a particularly good picture of 2 SM laying down the law on one artist with a canister of paint. I cannot help but feel all of this that have come later might not be for the better.


That's Rogue trader picture.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 23:39:54


Post by: Commander Endova


Without a doubt Cawl and the Primaris Marines. They were just shoehorned in with so much background missing, and a heaping serving of deus ex machina to boot. As it stands, there's nothing currently interesting or compelling about them. Moreover, the arrangement of their fighting formations flies in the face of everything we know about the Codex Astartes. I also think they make very little sense as Guilliman's pet project since Intercessor and Hellblaster squads, in particular, are so different that their Tactical and Devastator counterparts.

Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

As far as the two lost legions are concerned, I wish GW would just go ahead and solidify some information about them. I think it's fairly well known that the two missing legions were considered expunged so that players could have creative freedom to make their own Legion and associated Primarch. But this hasn't panned out, really. For as long as I've been in the hobby, attempts to make custom Legions/Primarchs have largely been met with derision and contempt, with rare exception.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/09 23:58:32


Post by: kestral


Some things that annoy me:

That everyone loves Primaris. I'd be ok with them if they were their own new armies, hated and feared by "Old" space marines. That would fit 40k. Or if at least there was some serious friction. It is hard to see one group of supermen welcoming a bigger bunch of supermen, or magically turning marines into even bigger marines. Weak sauce justification of bigger models.

Current Grey Knight fluff is weak, especially compared to how they work on the table top. Why would the greatest (until Custodes) warriors in the galaxy ride in a rhino? They made more sense with Landraiders and Storm Ravens.

Most accounts of worlds falling are dumb and hard to believe.

The darkening of the Tau Fluff. I liked them as niave to the point of stupidity, not as "Yet another gang of genocidal jerks".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 00:53:42


Post by: Niiai


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
In the good old days the SM where police. There is a particularly good picture of 2 SM laying down the law on one artist with a canister of paint. I cannot help but feel all of this that have come later might not be for the better.


That's Rogue trader picture.


Yes. After that it gets a bit muddled with lore welded onto other lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 02:30:27


Post by: chromedog


The SM were the "worst of the worst" brainwiped, reprogrammed and reutilised as humanity's elite warriors in the beginning. They weren't even T4 and terminator armour didn't even exist yet.

Then 2nd ed hit and the long slow slide turning them into crusading space knights began (adding "religiousity" into the game, the cult of the corpse-emperor and their equally blind many-angled-star worshippers).

It's never been "literature", but it certainly started to smell worse in the mid-90s.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 02:37:58


Post by: Mattlov


The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 06:27:09


Post by: Duskweaver


 chromedog wrote:
Then 2nd ed ... (adding "religiousity" into the game, the cult of the corpse-emperor and their equally blind many-angled-star worshippers).

This is nonsense. Imperial citizens being a bunch of superstitious pseudo-mediaeval-peasants ruled by the Adeptus Terra, "the Priesthood of Earth"; universal and mandatory worship of the Corpse-Emperor on the Golden Throne; technology and science being misunderstood and controlled by a sect of crazy priests; Space Marines being referred to as "Angels of Death" and "battle-brothers" and living in "fortress-monasteries" - all these things are in the "What is Warhammer 40,000" article in WD93 that introduced the original Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader book way back in 1987.

It's things like the Emperor and the Space Marines being atheists that is a (relatively) recent retcon. The pervasive religiosity was there from the start.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 14:25:30


Post by: Ratius


Always disliked (hated) Kellys 5th ed DE codex.
The way he wrote the lore you'd swear they were one step away from conquering the Galaxy (or at least had the potential too).
The newer fluff is much more enjoyable with the infighting, backstabbing and Commorragh on the brink.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 15:08:44


Post by: ChargerIIC


Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 15:25:27


Post by: Solar-powered_chainsword


 Arachnofiend wrote:
The worst lore is the Ynnari being able to reverse the Rubric. Completely cheapens Ahriman's quest that some cat lady can just snap her fingers and solve the entire problem.


Dead right. This was one of the most frustrating things to have seen in the new lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 19:41:47


Post by: Bharring


Well, maybe Ahriman should have spent more time in the (black) Library, then? What's his excuse!


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 20:17:58


Post by: Andykp


 ChargerIIC wrote:
Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.


Agreed. Not a big fan of this.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 21:11:39


Post by: BrianDavion


 ChargerIIC wrote:
Perpetuals.

No matter what else you bring up, no favors was ever done by having Highlander style immortals that can survive disintegration. Then they added the whole intergalatic secret kabal on top...

It's generated so many Dues Ex Machania and weird plot holes. I don't even think they could exorcise it at this point.


I'm kind of holding onto hope that come the siege of Terra the whole perpetual thing becomes important and actually ends up explaining something, or acheiving something, because right now I agree it seems largely "pointless space magic"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 21:34:57


Post by: Bharring


Agreed on Perpetuals.

"Too important to die. So he can't."

IOW, "Plot armor is canon".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/10 21:45:44


Post by: Albino Squirrel


Agreed. Perpetuals is probably the worst single thing.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 03:12:00


Post by: Anfauglir


It's practically impossible to narrow down any one single thing with so much bad, most of which (that I can think of) has been brought up already.

I think at this point it seems we can all (most) collectively agree to just reset back to around 3rd ED and try this whole thing again from there? Yeah? Good.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 06:06:08


Post by: nareik


 Mattlov wrote:
The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.
Basically all the Primarchs have this though.

Rogal Dorn?

Rogal (compound word formed from royal and regal), Dorn (native Briton word for fist).

Et cetera.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 06:18:50


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


By today's standards? Most Rogue Trader stuff. I'm sure back then it was 'awesome', but now it's mostly cringe-inducing.

Other than that- Perpetuals, yeah.

And a lot of that weird stuff Ward wrote.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 14:15:22


Post by: Insectum7


nareik wrote:
 Mattlov wrote:
The worst lore ever written was having the Iron Hands Primarch be named...Iron Hands.
Basically all the Primarchs have this though.

Rogal Dorn?

Rogal (compound word formed from royal and regal), Dorn (native Briton word for fist).

Et cetera.


Huh, never knew that. Ok, so where does Robute Guilliman come from?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 16:15:26


Post by: locarno24


 Commander Endova wrote:
Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.


I could see him "coming back" but not as a primarch per se. Master Of Mankind hints that you could, in theory, have a sort of Ghost Ferrus as a lord of war for the Legion Of The Damned.
The Animus Malorem being Ferrus' Skull would make a wierd sort of sense.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/11 16:52:45


Post by: Mr Morden


I can't think of anything that is as bad as the ongoing trash that is the flandersiation of the Space Wolves and to a lesser but still embressing level the Blood and Dark Angels.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 14:06:23


Post by: Slipspace


There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 14:54:21


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


Perpetuals. How.. how how how HOW could they come up with something that pathetically bad. Just BAD in every sense of the word.

I mean WHO thought that they'd be a good addition to this universe?

Are they supposed to be some desperate way to write in superheroes into 40k, since those are really popular at the moment?

Say, an ancient mystic who achieved immortality by achieving some "oneness with the universe" stuff - ok, fine why not, or some alien artifact or... just something more than "they were born that way"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 15:38:33


Post by: ChargerIIC


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Perpetuals. How.. how how how HOW could they come up with something that pathetically bad. Just BAD in every sense of the word.

I mean WHO thought that they'd be a good addition to this universe?

Are they supposed to be some desperate way to write in superheroes into 40k, since those are really popular at the moment?

Say, an ancient mystic who achieved immortality by achieving some "oneness with the universe" stuff - ok, fine why not, or some alien artifact or... just something more than "they were born that way"


30 beers, a little recreational marijuana, and a 12 hour Highlander Marathon. That's my theory.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 15:53:45


Post by: Nurglitch


Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

I hate to say it, but that's what I got from the GK fluff was that they weren't so much corrupted so much as soaking in it just like any other Sorcerers.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 16:01:12


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 16:13:48


Post by: pm713


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 16:23:03


Post by: Nurglitch


It's an audiobook, I think. It makes it seem slightly less ridiculous than the concept sounds on paper, but I think that's due in part to both the voice-work and the way Mortarion is portrayed.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 18:02:03


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Slipspace wrote:You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons.
Nah, that's fair. Crowe's concept is cool, but it makes very little sense when applied logically.

Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos.
Got to disagree there. Firstly, Mordrak isn't dead. You're thinking of Thawn, a regular Justicar who is rumoured to be a Perpetual (you can air your grievances with Perpetuals, but it is explained why he can come back). But Mordrak's Ghost Knights are no more related to Chaos than the Legion of the Damned are - who are actually ghosts guided by the Emperor, not Chaos. If the LOTD are fine, then surely the Ghost Knights are too, right?
Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection".
Considering the Imperium and the Warp, it absolutely makes sense that such a ritual might need to be done, and might actually work.
The issues with it are that the Grey Knights are said to be incorruptible anyways, so them needing protection is a little counterintuitive* and that they slaughtered Sisters of Battle, who are also incredibly resistant to corruption.**

Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.
Which gets expanded upon and actually given further detail and depth. If your issue is with Draigo being able to carve his forebear's name into Mortarion's heart (which he should find easier to do than any other Space Marine, considering that he's a Grey Knight, armed with prodigious amounts of specifically anti-Daemon weaponry, and armed with Mortarion's true name, I believe.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.
Corrupting the Chapter is just pointlessly edgy. Without light, there can be no darkness, yadda yadda - and besides, the "darkness" of the Grey Knights comes from their actions in things like the aftermath of the Armageddon War, not from some kind of corruption. You can be pure from the Warp, but your actions may be horrific.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 18:11:57


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 18:45:04


Post by: pm713


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 18:49:36


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 19:21:53


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Commander Endova wrote:
Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

Personally, in terms of retcons GW could make, "Ferrus Manus mostly survived and returns as an enormous dreadnought" is one I'm willing to accept.

Like, I can't think of anything more Iron Handsy than a Dreadnought Primarch.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 19:30:08


Post by: pm713


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?

Nice.

There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 20:18:02


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.
"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 20:29:53


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.
"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 20:37:11


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.
"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.
A Daemon Primarch is still a Daemon. Draigo is a daemon hunter par excellence. I see no reason that with some luck and skill that he could defeat a Daemon Primarch.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 20:58:01


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.
"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.
A Daemon Primarch is still a Daemon. Draigo is a daemon hunter par excellence. I see no reason that with some luck and skill that he could defeat a Daemon Primarch.

A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 20:59:06


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:02:21


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:08:10


Post by: Slipspace


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?


Or maybe the "haters" simply read the original fluff and thought it was ridiculous. I didn't rely on internet hyperbole, 1d4chan or some random guy in the street. I read the "story" in the codex and considered it stupid. The same goes for most of the other stuff in that codex, which I already elaborated on. The fact these things were later explained doesn't alter how bad they were at the time. In fact, the fluff was so bad it actively made me avoid any further stuff about Grey Knights. Any attempt to justify the bad writing from the codex after the fact is indicative of how bad the writing was in the first place.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:12:18


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:30:06


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?



THIS. I'm gonna go through godex DG and Codex GK, and compare Dragio and Morty, and I'm willing to bet that assuming a degree of luck, Dragion defeating Morty is "in the realm of the possiable"

Ok first of all, we're going to assume Dragion get's off the charge.

Dragio has a WS and BS of 2+, a strength of 4. he has 4 toughness, and 5 attacks.



So he's amnaged to get about 6 inches or so away from Morty (Morty's player fethed up, it happens) first of all he shoorts Morty with his storm bolter, and gets really REALLY lucky, dealing 4 damage ((Morty is now BTW down to 15 HP) he then tosses out smite.. dealing another 3 damage Morty is down to 11 HP and wonderig whats up with his dice today. Finally Drago charges into combat, and each hit with his weapon lands, dealing a total of 15 damage. boom Morty's defeated.

Now, am I saying this is likely? no, a Mathhammer player will be happy to calculate the average odds here, and tell us how friggen UNLIKELY this victory here is. but the point is, on table top, assuming a "perfect rolls" scenerio Dragio defeating Morty isn't outside the realm of the possiable.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:35:25


Post by: ChargerIIC


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Commander Endova wrote:
Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

Personally, in terms of retcons GW could make, "Ferrus Manus mostly survived and returns as an enormous dreadnought" is one I'm willing to accept.

Like, I can't think of anything more Iron Handsy than a Dreadnought Primarch.


You know it's just his head that fell off. The corpse is just a couple thousand years old. It's still good! It's still good!


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:38:26


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:48:05


Post by: BrianDavion


pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.


a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 21:54:22


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.
Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.
You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.
Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:00:13


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.
Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.
You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.
Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?


point of order Hyperorian didn't kill angron, simply broke his sword, an incrediable feat (that nearly killed him) but the actual killing of Angron was dealt by Brother-captain Aurellian,



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:02:41


Post by: pm713


BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.


a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:08:02


Post by: BrianDavion


pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.


a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.


except how do you know Dragio "suffered nothing"? "hero being bad ass" story in a codex almost never discuss the price of the heros great victory. If Hyporian's feat was mentioned it would have been written up as "well the man who slew angron was Aurellian, it was acheived only after his blade was broken in combat with Hyperoan, then a noviate of Castellian squad. For this the space wolves named him blade breaker, and he became one of the few grey knights respected in the days that followed"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:08:35


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.
Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.
You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.
Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?

Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.
It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".
And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.


a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.


except how do you know Dragio "suffered nothing"? "hero being bad ass" story in a codex almost never discuss the price of the heros great victory. If Hyporian's feat was mentioned it would have been written up as "well the man who slew angron was Aurellian, it was acheived only after his blade was broken in combat with Hyperoan, then a noviate of Castellian squad. For this the space wolves named him blade breaker, and he became one of the few grey knights respected in the days that followed"

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:11:48


Post by: Formosa


Dawn of war and furious abyss, dawn of war because the author clearly knew nothing of 40k lore and furious abyss because it was painfully boring.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:12:41


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.
You do know that in Mortarion's Heart, Draigo is only able to win because breaks Mortarion's deathblow, speaks his name, and uses the disruption to rip his heart out?

As in, Draigo didn't just waltz in and kill him without any struggle or physical injury. He was beaten until he was able to disrupt Morty.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.
No, people don't complain because ADB is a godly author and because people bandwagon on hating Ward and Draigo. They're not misguided about a lot of it, and there could certainly be more interesting features about Draigo to tell stories about, but defeating Mortarion clearly isn't something that is "ridiculous".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:14:46


Post by: BrianDavion



I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.


Absence of evidance is not evidance of absence.

A codex is a short blurb that tells you very little, as it is even then we do know losses where had, Mortarian did kill Dragio's predecessor. it's not unreasonable to assume they may have been friends.



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:21:36


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.
But you're ignoring the fact that the "huge power boost" makes him also FAR more vulnerable to Draigo.

If Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar were the one fighting Mortarion? I think they could still do it, but I'd struggle to suspend my disbelief.
But Draigo is a Grey Knight - the literal Anathema to Daemons. Draigo has the skill and power of a high powered Chapter Master, plus his psychic powers, PLUS his anti-Daemon training, PLUS Mortarion's figurative Kryptonite. How does he not have a chance?

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.
Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights are also fighting against Angron's Bloodthirster retinue too, and more importantly, do not have his True Name.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.
IOW "I don't believe their justification because I can't bring myself to admit that it's totally possible, because hating Ward's cool!!"

He doesn't walk all over him. He doesn't just flick his wrist and win. He gets beaten to the dirt, and only wins because he stuns Morty with a psychic blast (something that Draigo is adept at, considering his status in the Chapter), uses his True Name (Mortarion's biggest weakness) and pushes the advantage.

Misrepresenting the argument isn't cool. The facts are that Draigo won, barely, because of his skills as a warrior and anti-Daemon specialist, and his possession of the metaphorical silver bullet.

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.
It's in Mortarion's Heart.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:22:24


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.
You do know that in Mortarion's Heart, Draigo is only able to win because breaks Mortarion's deathblow, speaks his name, and uses the disruption to rip his heart out?

As in, Draigo didn't just waltz in and kill him without any struggle or physical injury. He was beaten until he was able to disrupt Morty.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.
No, people don't complain because ADB is a godly author and because people bandwagon on hating Ward and Draigo. They're not misguided about a lot of it, and there could certainly be more interesting features about Draigo to tell stories about, but defeating Mortarion clearly isn't something that is "ridiculous".

Did the book mention that Mortarion decided he'd beat the Grey Knights unarmed? Because last I checked Mortarion has some badass armour and punching through that and Nurgly skin and being that strong after being beaten does sound ridiculous.

Maybe so many people hate on Draigo because it's silly. Like the bit about Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle to use their blood as a shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.
But you're ignoring the fact that the "huge power boost" makes him also FAR more vulnerable to Draigo.

If Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar were the one fighting Mortarion? I think they could still do it, but I'd struggle to suspend my disbelief.
But Draigo is a Grey Knight - the literal Anathema to Daemons. Draigo has the skill and power of a high powered Chapter Master, plus his psychic powers, PLUS his anti-Daemon training, PLUS Mortarion's figurative Kryptonite. How does he not have a chance?

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.
Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights are also fighting against Angron's Bloodthirster retinue too, and more importantly, do not have his True Name.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.
IOW "I don't believe their justification because I can't bring myself to admit that it's totally possible, because hating Ward's cool!!"

He doesn't walk all over him. He doesn't just flick his wrist and win. He gets beaten to the dirt, and only wins because he stuns Morty with a psychic blast (something that Draigo is adept at, considering his status in the Chapter), uses his True Name (Mortarion's biggest weakness) and pushes the advantage.

Misrepresenting the argument isn't cool. The facts are that Draigo won, barely, because of his skills as a warrior and anti-Daemon specialist, and his possession of the metaphorical silver bullet.

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.
It's in Mortarion's Heart.

You seem to think Demon Primarchs are WAY weaker than they are.

But honestly I think at this point you're disagreeing because you have a weird thing about arguing against "Ward hate" so I'm leaving things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.


Absence of evidance is not evidance of absence.

A codex is a short blurb that tells you very little, as it is even then we do know losses where had, Mortarian did kill Dragio's predecessor. it's not unreasonable to assume they may have been friends.


You could literally add the experience left Draigo broken or something like that.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/13 22:42:45


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:Did the book mention that Mortarion decided he'd beat the Grey Knights unarmed? Because last I checked Mortarion has some badass armour and punching through that and Nurgly skin and being that strong after being beaten does sound ridiculous.
And as clearly shown, all that fancy armour and nurgly skin are irrelevant when dealing with a force weapon, specifically designed to kill warpspawn.

The aura of the blade cuts through the skin, and the actual sword cuts the armour. 40k has clearly shown for YEARS that fancy armour is very little against a power weapon. Hell, Genestealers with biological melee weapons can pierce Terminator plate - the stuff that resists plasma generators. So, if you're complaining about armour not doing much - welcome to 40k.

Mortarion was fully armed, but defeated by something that his weapons could not prevent - his True Name being invoked.

Maybe so many people hate on Draigo because it's silly. Like the bit about Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle to use their blood as a shield.
I actually did mention this, and said that it was one of the problematic ones. The idea that blood of the pure is protective, and the Grey Knights killing friendlies to do it is completely logical in 40k. The thing that doesn't make sense is that the GK even felt they had to - they're supposed to be incorruptible, so why did they need the Sisters' blood to shield them? My only logical answer is that the corruption of the Bloodtide was more like an offensive attack than a "converts to Chaos" thing. If so, then the Grey Knights might need physical protection, but they're already spiritually protected.

That's just my attempts to make sense of it. It's certainly not a great story. However, I don't see what it has to do with Draigo's, because his isn't silly at all. It's absolutely something that could happen.


You seem to think Demon Primarchs are WAY weaker than they are.
You seem to think Grey Knights are WAY weaker than they are.
You seem to think Daemon Primarchs are WAY stronger than they are.

Neither of those statements are actually very informative, are they? Show me, WHY is Mortarion stronger than I think he is. Why do you say "weaker than they ARE" like it's a fact? If it is a fact, prove that to me. You're just saying "Mortarion's the strongest!!" but when I give my points for WHY Draigo has a chance, you never support why Mortarion is so strong.

I'm not saying Primarchs aren't pants-wettingly powerful. I agree, they are. But that doesn't mean that there aren't hard counters to them. Grey Knight champions with True Names and a grudge are one of them.
But honestly I think at this point you're disagreeing because you have a weird thing about arguing against "Ward hate" so I'm leaving things.
Um, okay? It more seems that you have a chip on your shoulder against Ward (which you suggest in this very post, when you bring up the Bloodtide, and imply that these are both linked), but I am sincere in that I'm not just arguing against "Ward hate".
I'm arguing for something that I feel is quite misrepresented, and which you demonstrate my point brilliantly ("The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity" - ignoring the actual data).


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 01:28:04


Post by: BrianDavion


BTW the latest HH novel has another case of invoking a deamon primarchs true name against him (it's how deamon primarch Fulgrim was brought to heel) and yet again, Fulgrim was UTTERLY helpless against that power.

Deamon Primarchs are very powerful, but they also have some pretty major weaknesses as well..



Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 12:20:40


Post by: Andykp


The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 12:32:54


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Andykp wrote:
The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.
And the Rogue Trader stuff wasn't?

40k has always been overblown. Sometimes things stick, sometimes they don't.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 12:36:47


Post by: Formosa


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.
And the Rogue Trader stuff wasn't?

40k has always been overblown. Sometimes things stick, sometimes they don't.



Like an inquisitor spending a chapter putting on thousand sons power armour and then taking it off without ever actually using it, or a space warp tentacle monster that takes over people’s minds, or a dancing dreadnought stolen by a lord inquisitor and enjoys dancing, or a calidus assassin falling in lurve....

That’s all in one series...


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 12:45:58


Post by: BrianDavion


Andykp wrote:
The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.

In fairness it's 40k the fluff is ALL silly.

Which I think it kinda the point, In a world where you have space Orks making cars literally go faster because they paint racing stripes on it and belive hard eneugh, where the Iron Hands Primarch is named "Iron Hands, in latin" (and the Raven Guard primarch is named "Raven" and whose last words where supposedly "nevermore") a crazy space robot who collects people in pokeballs, Tyranids (seriously ask a biologist he'll tell you the premise of the entire race is scienticiflcy.... unlikely) and Jokero, you gotta remember that 40k isn't something you should take tooooo seriously


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 13:10:18


Post by: Slipspace


It's not just about whether it's silly or not, though. 40k isn't going to win many awards for the quality of its writing after all. There is such a thing as internal consistency though.

Also, in these cases the writing was so bad it was comical. They literally mention the Mortarion thing as a passing comment in the Codex. It's clearly some sort of pretty damn important event and it's just sort of skipped over. That's the main reason it's bad.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 13:33:12


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Slipspace wrote:
It's not just about whether it's silly or not, though. 40k isn't going to win many awards for the quality of its writing after all. There is such a thing as internal consistency though.

Also, in these cases the writing was so bad it was comical. They literally mention the Mortarion thing as a passing comment in the Codex. It's clearly some sort of pretty damn important event and it's just sort of skipped over. That's the main reason it's bad.
And is then elaborated on. You can complain about the initial treatment in the Codex, but you can't maintain that it's still bad by that reasoning.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 13:37:55


Post by: Slipspace


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
It's not just about whether it's silly or not, though. 40k isn't going to win many awards for the quality of its writing after all. There is such a thing as internal consistency though.

Also, in these cases the writing was so bad it was comical. They literally mention the Mortarion thing as a passing comment in the Codex. It's clearly some sort of pretty damn important event and it's just sort of skipped over. That's the main reason it's bad.
And is then elaborated on. You can complain about the initial treatment in the Codex, but you can't maintain that it's still bad by that reasoning.


It's a good job I'm not doing that then. While it may have been elaborated on, at the time it was the worst lore ever written, IMO. Furthermore, explaining it later is great and all, but the way it was initially presented is, in itself, bad. So bad, in fact, that as I stated, I no longer care about the GK fluff at all. Ironically this makes me less likely to bother to read the explanation for the bad fluff.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 13:51:46


Post by: YeOldSaltPotato


 Formosa wrote:
a dancing dreadnought stolen by a lord inquisitor and enjoys dancing


What series is that? I kinda want to read it for context.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 13:52:09


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Slipspace wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
It's not just about whether it's silly or not, though. 40k isn't going to win many awards for the quality of its writing after all. There is such a thing as internal consistency though.

Also, in these cases the writing was so bad it was comical. They literally mention the Mortarion thing as a passing comment in the Codex. It's clearly some sort of pretty damn important event and it's just sort of skipped over. That's the main reason it's bad.
And is then elaborated on. You can complain about the initial treatment in the Codex, but you can't maintain that it's still bad by that reasoning.


It's a good job I'm not doing that then. While it may have been elaborated on, at the time it was the worst lore ever written, IMO. Furthermore, explaining it later is great and all, but the way it was initially presented is, in itself, bad. So bad, in fact, that as I stated, I no longer care about the GK fluff at all. Ironically this makes me less likely to bother to read the explanation for the bad fluff.
My comment isn't just aimed at you. It's directed to anyone who says that the GK fluff if still the "worst".

You saying that the lore WAS the worst is understandable (although that is also hyperbolic to an extreme, but also subjective). However, anyone (not just you) who says that it is STILL the worst lore is most likely ignoring the additions to it that make it palatable.
I won't lie that what it was presented at first was bad. But to cling on to that viewpoint is to be ignorant of the newer data of it.

If I was told "Cadia fell" with no additional context, I'd call that some pretty terrible lore. But the fact that it was elaborated on, no matter how long that took, means it is no longer terrible lore.

Honestly, who cares how bad it was back then? It's better now. I don't care if you say "GK lore was bad". It's when people say "GK lore is bad".*



*Yes, I'm aware that people have subjective tastes, but when those tastes are shaped by false information, that's an argument from ignorance.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 14:03:20


Post by: Andykp


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
It's not just about whether it's silly or not, though. 40k isn't going to win many awards for the quality of its writing after all. There is such a thing as internal consistency though.

Also, in these cases the writing was so bad it was comical. They literally mention the Mortarion thing as a passing comment in the Codex. It's clearly some sort of pretty damn important event and it's just sort of skipped over. That's the main reason it's bad.
And is then elaborated on. You can complain about the initial treatment in the Codex, but you can't maintain that it's still bad by that reasoning.


It's a good job I'm not doing that then. While it may have been elaborated on, at the time it was the worst lore ever written, IMO. Furthermore, explaining it later is great and all, but the way it was initially presented is, in itself, bad. So bad, in fact, that as I stated, I no longer care about the GK fluff at all. Ironically this makes me less likely to bother to read the explanation for the bad fluff.
My comment isn't just aimed at you. It's directed to anyone who says that the GK fluff if still the "worst".

You saying that the lore WAS the worst is understandable (although that is also hyperbolic to an extreme, but also subjective). However, anyone (not just you) who says that it is STILL the worst lore is most likely ignoring the additions to it that make it palatable.
I won't lie that what it was presented at first was bad. But to cling on to that viewpoint is to be ignorant of the newer data of it.

If I was told "Cadia fell" with no additional context, I'd call that some pretty terrible lore. But the fact that it was elaborated on, no matter how long that took, means it is no longer terrible lore.

Honestly, who cares how bad it was back then? It's better now. I don't care if you say "GK lore was bad". It's when people say "GK lore is bad".*



*Yes, I'm aware that people have subjective tastes, but when those tastes are shaped by false information, that's an argument from ignorance.

That’s assuming it’s coming from ignorance. U are assuming anyone who doesn’t like it hasn’t read it more recent stuff. It has got better but it’s still based on the ludicrous initial premise.

As for all 40k being silly, it is to an extent but there has always been a certain degree of silliness and grittiness that can be tolerated too much of either and it gets bad. That era of fluff writing took it all too far. There have always been examples of very silly stuff. I still think all in all the perpetual fluff is the worst around. The ward era stuff isn’t as defining and has been toned down already.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 14:22:46


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Andykp wrote:
That’s assuming it’s coming from ignorance. U are assuming anyone who doesn’t like it hasn’t read it more recent stuff. It has got better but it’s still based on the ludicrous initial premise.
I am assuming that, yeah, because the majority of people who repeat the whole "Draigo's can't kill a Primarch omg Ward's terrible" shtick often haven't read Mortarion's Heart, and often just repeat what they've read on 1d4chan. Of course there's outliers, and I respect that, but the vast majority of those people who do bring this up haven't actually read the more recent stuff.

The fact you call the initial premise ludicrous is the problem here - it's far from ludicrous. It's no more ludicrous that so many of the things that happen in 40k, but this gets a bad name for some reason. I can call the idea of an Imperial Guard officer outsmarting Eldar Autarchs and Farseers ludicrous, but it happens (Creed, Pask). I can call the idea that a human Commissar killing a Daemon Prince/Chaos Lord in hand-to-hand combat ludicrous, but that happens (Necropolis). The reason that we hear about those stories is because the ludicrous happens. We don't see the regular things that happen as much as we hear the one-off tales, the victory snatched from certain defeat, the survival against the odds. Draigo killing Mortarion is unlikely, but was still within the realm of possibility. I don't see what was that ludicrous about it.

As for all 40k being silly, it is to an extent but there has always been a certain degree of silliness and grittiness that can be tolerated too much of either and it gets bad. That era of fluff writing took it all too far. There have always been examples of very silly stuff. I still think all in all the perpetual fluff is the worst around. The ward era stuff isn’t as defining and has been toned down already.
I'll agree that there's stuff that pushes the boundaries. Ward's stuff, especially with the Ultramarines, was the worst of it. I don't think that Draigo's was silly. However, hanging on to that and maintaining that, for example, Guilliman is still this "spiritual liege" and other chapters are upset because they'll never be a good as the Ultramarines, or that Draigo couldn't have killed Mortarion, is neglecting the new stuff that comes in it's wake.

We're not going to let some stuff Ward wrote define the Grey Knights and Ultramarines long after he wrote it, are we?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 16:54:24


Post by: DontEatRawHagis


Ork technology working because all Orks are psykers. It was a hypothesis from a Techpriest who couldn't figure out how Ork technology worked. It was never represented as actual fact.

I'm all for Orks using Waaagh energy to bend the laws of physics. But when I keep getting people telling me they should be able to make all my Ork technology fail by making deny the witch rolls I want to slap them across the head.

Orks work better as instinctual creatures that know how their technology works without consciously thinking about it.

This is a very nit picky problem I have with Orks, but honestly its the only thing I hate about Ork lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 18:00:29


Post by: dreadblade


The whole "Land Raiders and Land Speeders are named after Arkhan Land" retcon.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 18:53:47


Post by: pm713


 Brother Castor wrote:
The whole "Land Raiders and Land Speeders are named after Arkhan Land" retcon.

What was the retcon?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 19:09:44


Post by: dreadblade


pm713 wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
The whole "Land Raiders and Land Speeders are named after Arkhan Land" retcon.

What was the retcon?

Land Raiders and Land Speeders have been around since RT, but "Mr. Land" was first mentioned in WD 245 (June 2000). Perhaps he founded Land Rover and the Land Registry too?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 19:46:35


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


BrianDavion wrote:
BTW the latest HH novel has another case of invoking a deamon primarchs true name against him (it's how deamon primarch Fulgrim was brought to heel) and yet again, Fulgrim was UTTERLY helpless against that power.

Deamon Primarchs are very powerful, but they also have some pretty major weaknesses as well..


That's not gonna convince him otherwise, no matter HOW reasonable!


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 19:59:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


What was the ADB novel that featured the Grey Knights fighting Angron?

Also, "GW will never win awards for the writing"? Tell that to the David Gemmel Awards.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 20:04:21


Post by: pm713


The Emperor's Gift I think.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 20:18:44


Post by: SickSix


I have to vote for the life long failure of GW to be able to coherently explain Salamnder chapter organisation. Every edition has had blatant contradictions or holes that just can't be explained. It's infuriating that that cant put in the minimal effort to just explain how one of the original chapters work.

I know there are singular instances of lore that are far more egregious but this decades long failure is just maddening.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 20:22:58


Post by: pm713


I thought it was just 7 Companies of 120 men each, First Captain is Chapter Master plus support peeps.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 22:50:25


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
That’s assuming it’s coming from ignorance. U are assuming anyone who doesn’t like it hasn’t read it more recent stuff. It has got better but it’s still based on the ludicrous initial premise.
I am assuming that, yeah, because the majority of people who repeat the whole "Draigo's can't kill a Primarch omg Ward's terrible" shtick often haven't read Mortarion's Heart, and often just repeat what they've read on 1d4chan. Of course there's outliers, and I respect that, but the vast majority of those people who do bring this up haven't actually read the more recent stuff.

The fact you call the initial premise ludicrous is the problem here - it's far from ludicrous. It's no more ludicrous that so many of the things that happen in 40k, but this gets a bad name for some reason. I can call the idea of an Imperial Guard officer outsmarting Eldar Autarchs and Farseers ludicrous, but it happens (Creed, Pask). I can call the idea that a human Commissar killing a Daemon Prince/Chaos Lord in hand-to-hand combat ludicrous, but that happens (Necropolis). The reason that we hear about those stories is because the ludicrous happens. We don't see the regular things that happen as much as we hear the one-off tales, the victory snatched from certain defeat, the survival against the odds. Draigo killing Mortarion is unlikely, but was still within the realm of possibility. I don't see what was that ludicrous about it.

As for all 40k being silly, it is to an extent but there has always been a certain degree of silliness and grittiness that can be tolerated too much of either and it gets bad. That era of fluff writing took it all too far. There have always been examples of very silly stuff. I still think all in all the perpetual fluff is the worst around. The ward era stuff isn’t as defining and has been toned down already.
I'll agree that there's stuff that pushes the boundaries. Ward's stuff, especially with the Ultramarines, was the worst of it. I don't think that Draigo's was silly. However, hanging on to that and maintaining that, for example, Guilliman is still this "spiritual liege" and other chapters are upset because they'll never be a good as the Ultramarines, or that Draigo couldn't have killed Mortarion, is neglecting the new stuff that comes in it's wake.

We're not going to let some stuff Ward wrote define the Grey Knights and Ultramarines long after he wrote it, are we?


thin g is codices describe almost every fight in a very short "this character is a bad ass, here's some examples" the GK dex is hardly unique in that regard. it's the rule more then the exception. it's IMHO not the codex's job to provide indpeth lore and explinations for these events, that is IMHO Black Libraries job. the Codices IMHO are simply a giant book of "potential BL stories"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/14 23:26:26


Post by: Andykp


I have always been able to ignore any fluff I don’t like. The term lore is too strong for 40k background in my opinion. It shouldn’t be too set in stone and should be a bit fluid. To me pius is still the plucky guardsman getting killed and not a perpetual and I just ignored all the ward stuff from that era. I also tend to ignore a lot of black library stuff as I feel it often goes to far into things. I like the books that are about minor characters in less significant settings. Not big game changers in huge battles but that’s how I play 40k too. No special characters and very narrative. Impact in the place the battles are fought but less on the surrounding galaxy. I like the moments in the books that give you insight into the thoughts of lesser characters in the universe. The civilian, or basic trooper.

That’s why a lot of HH fluff now is my least favourite stuff. Better off having that period as myth and legend with no cold hard facts. Because those facts impact on the games fluff in the 41st/42nd millennium. Perpetuals are still the worst of it. I know I’m in the minority with my dislike of the HH series but that’s , like, my opinion.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 12:21:00


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


Andykp wrote:
I have always been able to ignore any fluff I don’t like. The term lore is too strong for 40k background in my opinion. It shouldn’t be too set in stone and should be a bit fluid. To me pius is still the plucky guardsman getting killed and not a perpetual and I just ignored all the ward stuff from that era. I also tend to ignore a lot of black library stuff as I feel it often goes to far into things. I like the books that are about minor characters in less significant settings. Not big game changers in huge battles but that’s how I play 40k too. No special characters and very narrative. Impact in the place the battles are fought but less on the surrounding galaxy. I like the moments in the books that give you insight into the thoughts of lesser characters in the universe. The civilian, or basic trooper.

That’s why a lot of HH fluff now is my least favourite stuff. Better off having that period as myth and legend with no cold hard facts. Because those facts impact on the games fluff in the 41st/42nd millennium. Perpetuals are still the worst of it. I know I’m in the minority with my dislike of the HH series but that’s , like, my opinion.


I agree, paradoxically, being able to see the world from an average persons limited point of view makes the world seem a lot more bigger and open for possibilities. And, yes - HH is horrible, and unlike most fluff GWs stance seems to be that HH is factually correct - instead being told by the usual unreliable narrator, which makes most bad stuff, if not bearable, atleast ignorable. Sadly the same hard fact stance seems to go for pretty much all of 8 ed. fluff, what with the whole "galaxy wide warpstorm" and "primarchs return" bollocks.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 14:22:35


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I have always been able to ignore any fluff I don’t like. The term lore is too strong for 40k background in my opinion. It shouldn’t be too set in stone and should be a bit fluid. To me pius is still the plucky guardsman getting killed and not a perpetual and I just ignored all the ward stuff from that era. I also tend to ignore a lot of black library stuff as I feel it often goes to far into things. I like the books that are about minor characters in less significant settings. Not big game changers in huge battles but that’s how I play 40k too. No special characters and very narrative. Impact in the place the battles are fought but less on the surrounding galaxy. I like the moments in the books that give you insight into the thoughts of lesser characters in the universe. The civilian, or basic trooper.

That’s why a lot of HH fluff now is my least favourite stuff. Better off having that period as myth and legend with no cold hard facts. Because those facts impact on the games fluff in the 41st/42nd millennium. Perpetuals are still the worst of it. I know I’m in the minority with my dislike of the HH series but that’s , like, my opinion.


I agree, paradoxically, being able to see the world from an average persons limited point of view makes the world seem a lot more bigger and open for possibilities. And, yes - HH is horrible, and unlike most fluff GWs stance seems to be that HH is factually correct - instead being told by the usual unreliable narrator, which makes most bad stuff, if not bearable, atleast ignorable. Sadly the same hard fact stance seems to go for pretty much all of 8 ed. fluff, what with the whole "galaxy wide warpstorm" and "primarchs return" bollocks.
The universe has always had hard facts.

Hard facts include things like the Eye of Terror existing, Marneus Calgar existing, Space Marines being part of the Imperium of Man - the things that are facts of the setting.
Funnily enough, the Eye of Terror is just a smaller Cixatrix Maledictum. Calgar is a smaller Guilliman. No-one complained about the Eye of Terror or Calgar existing in the setting. Clearly, I think the issue people have is either change, or things being big (of which you don't really get much bigger than things like the Chaos Gods).

You can have an issue all you want with hard facts, but 40k has always had them.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 15:51:54


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I have always been able to ignore any fluff I don’t like. The term lore is too strong for 40k background in my opinion. It shouldn’t be too set in stone and should be a bit fluid. To me pius is still the plucky guardsman getting killed and not a perpetual and I just ignored all the ward stuff from that era. I also tend to ignore a lot of black library stuff as I feel it often goes to far into things. I like the books that are about minor characters in less significant settings. Not big game changers in huge battles but that’s how I play 40k too. No special characters and very narrative. Impact in the place the battles are fought but less on the surrounding galaxy. I like the moments in the books that give you insight into the thoughts of lesser characters in the universe. The civilian, or basic trooper.

That’s why a lot of HH fluff now is my least favourite stuff. Better off having that period as myth and legend with no cold hard facts. Because those facts impact on the games fluff in the 41st/42nd millennium. Perpetuals are still the worst of it. I know I’m in the minority with my dislike of the HH series but that’s , like, my opinion.


I agree, paradoxically, being able to see the world from an average persons limited point of view makes the world seem a lot more bigger and open for possibilities. And, yes - HH is horrible, and unlike most fluff GWs stance seems to be that HH is factually correct - instead being told by the usual unreliable narrator, which makes most bad stuff, if not bearable, atleast ignorable. Sadly the same hard fact stance seems to go for pretty much all of 8 ed. fluff, what with the whole "galaxy wide warpstorm" and "primarchs return" bollocks.
The universe has always had hard facts.

Hard facts include things like the Eye of Terror existing, Marneus Calgar existing, Space Marines being part of the Imperium of Man - the things that are facts of the setting.
Funnily enough, the Eye of Terror is just a smaller Cixatrix Maledictum. Calgar is a smaller Guilliman. No-one complained about the Eye of Terror or Calgar existing in the setting. Clearly, I think the issue people have is either change, or things being big (of which you don't really get much bigger than things like the Chaos Gods).

You can have an issue all you want with hard facts, but 40k has always had them.


Point is that more there are hard facts and big changes, things that can't be ignored, more it limits peoples ability to forge their own narrative using the setting. Which is the point of the whole 40k universe - Your dudes, not GeeDubs dudes. And besides - just making things bigger won't make them more engaging. Infact, it just makes the world smaller.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 15:57:43


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Point is that more there are hard facts and big changes, things that can't be ignored, more it limits peoples ability to forge their own narrative using the setting. Which is the point of the whole 40k universe - Your dudes, not GeeDubs dudes. And besides - just making things bigger won't make them more engaging. Infact, it just makes the world smaller.
Given that the world is unfathomably large, I don't understand how you can say it's smaller. Plus, nothing about the setting has been retconned. Only advanced. Things happen, because it's a story. The main reason people didn't believe that 40k had a story was because it had stagnated to the point where it had BECOME the setting. I'm happy to see that the setting has stories in it.
You don't like the Indomitus Crusade, or anything post-Cadia? Great, forge your narratives before that.

Nothing is stopping your dudes any more than before. But I'm curious - what now can "Your Dudes" not do that they could do before?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 17:38:02


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Point is that more there are hard facts and big changes, things that can't be ignored, more it limits peoples ability to forge their own narrative using the setting. Which is the point of the whole 40k universe - Your dudes, not GeeDubs dudes. And besides - just making things bigger won't make them more engaging. Infact, it just makes the world smaller.
Given that the world is unfathomably large, I don't understand how you can say it's smaller. Plus, nothing about the setting has been retconned. Only advanced. Things happen, because it's a story. The main reason people didn't believe that 40k had a story was because it had stagnated to the point where it had BECOME the setting. I'm happy to see that the setting has stories in it.
You don't like the Indomitus Crusade, or anything post-Cadia? Great, forge your narratives before that.

Nothing is stopping your dudes any more than before. But I'm curious - what now can "Your Dudes" not do that they could do before?


agreed. fact is, for people who play with their dudes, the whole indomatus crusade etc ahs some great potential. "well, this happened, what do your dudes think about that?!"


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 17:51:58


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Point is that more there are hard facts and big changes, things that can't be ignored, more it limits peoples ability to forge their own narrative using the setting. Which is the point of the whole 40k universe - Your dudes, not GeeDubs dudes. And besides - just making things bigger won't make them more engaging. Infact, it just makes the world smaller.
Given that the world is unfathomably large, I don't understand how you can say it's smaller. Plus, nothing about the setting has been retconned. Only advanced. Things happen, because it's a story. The main reason people didn't believe that 40k had a story was because it had stagnated to the point where it had BECOME the setting. I'm happy to see that the setting has stories in it.
You don't like the Indomitus Crusade, or anything post-Cadia? Great, forge your narratives before that.

Nothing is stopping your dudes any more than before. But I'm curious - what now can "Your Dudes" not do that they could do before?


You see, more and more of the important events seem to center around a small cast of character, incidently ones we know of, on the planets we know of. Rest of the universe is incidental at best and irrelevant at worst. The 400 billion stars of our galaxy are meaningless when a few places we happen to know of have bad things happen in them - suddenly there's a warpstorm bigger than Eye of Terror that is created by setting a gas cloud on fire and blowing few planets, because those happen to be some of the few we know - there for, they are of greater importance that the rest. Apparently the Eldar weren't that mighty, since they only managed to create the Eye -and War in Heaven was even less so, since that didn't create any warpstorm we know of - Old Ones sure were pathetic since Chaos worshipping humans can cause more permanent damage to the galaxy than they did.

It's all just so badly written - all of 8 ed fluff is so baaaad, its like a bad superhero event comic or a saturday morning cartoon - one where "biggest baddest things evar appears out of nowhere, and is then defeated without a hitch" Ever read the DC crossover "Culling"?

When everything the Biggest. Thing. Ever. it all cease to mean anything, the immersion is broken and the thing becomes a game of escalation ad nauseum. " My Superman fires biggerer lazers than you Superman" "Oh Yeah! Well, MY Superman can timetravel with a though" "Well, so does MY Superman, and he can think faster than yours" Yuk.

People who celebrate the "40k finally has a story" seem to be the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own - so they just want to see the existing background people become storys characters. Almost as horrible as crossover fanfics.

Of and now Blood Angels can't fight Tau. And they no longer have to wrestle with Black Rage and Red Thirst since a Primarisification solves such problems. Scythes of the Emperor, Flesh Teares and Lamenter are no longer at the brink of extinction since they too got their share of that Primaris goodness, there goes that tension.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 17:55:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 17:56:07


Post by: BrianDavion


you say that like it's not always been the case though. Consider the big important warzones pre-Gathering Storm, Cadia, Armageddon, the damocles gulf. You'd be forgiven if you didn't realzie the IoM had chapters other then the 1st founders and the black templars.

BTW Blood Angels CAN fight Tau, the entire 4th sphere of expansion was sent..... off course, specificly to let peopple who otherwise might not have much reason to, fight the Tau


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 17:58:15


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


BrianDavion wrote:
you say that like it's not always been the case though. Consider the big important warzones pre-Gathering Storm, Cadia, Armageddon, the damocles gulf. You'd be forgiven if you didn't realzie the IoM had chapters other then the 1st founders and the black templars.

BTW Blood Angels CAN fight Tau, the entire 4th sphere of expansion was sent..... off course, specificly to let peopple who otherwise might not have much reason to, fight the Tau

And now your special snowflake Chapters aren't likely to be killed off for pure shock factor. Didn't GW just kill 6 or 7 Blood Angels successors?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 18:03:31


Post by: BrianDavion


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
you say that like it's not always been the case though. Consider the big important warzones pre-Gathering Storm, Cadia, Armageddon, the damocles gulf. You'd be forgiven if you didn't realzie the IoM had chapters other then the 1st founders and the black templars.

BTW Blood Angels CAN fight Tau, the entire 4th sphere of expansion was sent..... off course, specificly to let peopple who otherwise might not have much reason to, fight the Tau

And now your special snowflake Chapters aren't likely to be killed off for pure shock factor. Didn't GW just kill 6 or 7 Blood Angels successors?


possiably more, the butcher's bill for Baal was pretty nuts. now granted, except for the Knights of Blood, I suspect all the sucessors that have been specificly NAMED are alive, but yeah the "ohh chapter X is dying! it's on it's last legs! it won't last a decade longer" for 20 years real time gets a bit silly. sometimes a theme needs to be advanced and moved along.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 18:33:30


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:You see, more and more of the important events seem to center around a small cast of character, incidently ones we know of, on the planets we know of. Rest of the universe is incidental at best and irrelevant at worst. The 400 billion stars of our galaxy are meaningless when a few places we happen to know of have bad things happen in them - suddenly there's a warpstorm bigger than Eye of Terror that is created by setting a gas cloud on fire and blowing few planets, because those happen to be some of the few we know - there for, they are of greater importance that the rest. Apparently the Eldar weren't that mighty, since they only managed to create the Eye -and War in Heaven was even less so, since that didn't create any warpstorm we know of - Old Ones sure were pathetic since Chaos worshipping humans can cause more permanent damage to the galaxy than they did.
Implying that other warzones in the galaxy weren't also centred around other small casts of characters? The third Armageddon War only really featured Ghazghkull, Helbretch (and other Black Templars by proxy), Yarrick, Tu'Shan, and other token Imperial leaders.
The Battle of Macragge only featured Ultramarines, the Swarmlord and Old One Eye.
The Battle of Ichar IV was Calgar, Prince Yriel, and the Swarmlord.

Remind me, how was 40k's lore ever anything other than important events around a select cast? The only difference now is that the consequences of the select cast are larger, which I think is better, as it leads to actual progress and narrative developments.

Even beforehand, whatever Marneus Calgar did had no bearing on what Captain Genericus did. Your Dude, Captain Genericus, can still do what he wants in the Sector Genericus, and while what he does might be irrelevant compared to whatever Dante or Abaddon is doing, it's relevant to Your Dudes. Who cares what's going on elsewhere? If you care that much about Your Dudes, it won't matter.

The Cicatrix opening up was a deliberate action, one powered by a continual stretching of the material plane by Abaddon's Balck Crusades. The Eldar oped the Eye by accident. Abaddon forced it wider by force. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.
The Old Ones weren't trying to rupture space open. Their War in Heaven was relegated almost solely in the Webway and material plane. Chaos are actively trying to rip space open. Hardly the same.

It's all just so badly written - all of 8 ed fluff is so baaaad, its like a bad superhero event comic or a saturday morning cartoon - one where "biggest baddest things evar appears out of nowhere, and is then defeated without a hitch" Ever read the DC crossover "Culling"?
Implying that the constant stalemate and "GUYS IT'S 10 SECONDS TO MIDNIGHT OMG WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN" for over a decade was better?

You can complain about the execution of it all you like. I'm still undecided if I like the execution. What I'm saying is that moving the setting forward and creating actual story events is far better, almost entirely irrespective of execution, than what we had before.

The comic book situation you describe now was far worse pre-8th than now.

When everything the Biggest. Thing. Ever. it all cease to mean anything, the immersion is broken and the thing becomes a game of escalation ad nauseum. " My Superman fires biggerer lazers than you Superman" "Oh Yeah! Well, MY Superman can timetravel with a though" "Well, so does MY Superman, and he can think faster than yours" Yuk.
But that's not what's happening? Things are happening organically, with a reason as to why and how they're occurring. Your point would be valid if things had no reasons for why they happened, but that's not what's happening.

If some random guy suddenly became a Primarch, that would be what you mean.
If the galaxy split open randomly with no cause, that would be what you mean.
If the Tau suddenly appeared on the other side of the galaxy, that would be what you mean.

However, there are REASONS and ACTIONS that dictate how we got here. Rational, narrative reasons. Honestly, your disregard for them makes it sound like you don't actually care about narratives at all.

Endless Superman+1s are bad because they react on a meta level, and are not dictated by the actual narrative. Current 40k is not that.

People who celebrate the "40k finally has a story" seem to be the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own - so they just want to see the existing background people become storys characters. Almost as horrible as crossover fanfics.
That's not a generalization, is it?

I'd like to point out that I've used the developing plot and story in 40k to develop my own homebrew "Your Dudes". My Ultramarines Acting-Captain homebrew, since Guilliman came back, and the Primaris Marines were introduced, has been selected by Guilliman to lead these Primaris Marines and secure a region of space lost in the Plague Wars, and in doing so, redeem himself for a catastrophic failure in a previous campaign.

Aside from my "Your Dudes" Chapter, I'm also keen on creating unique regiments of guardsmen (from plate armoured laslock knights to Swiss-inspired mountain siege infantry, to drop pod using light infantry and nomadic tribe tank regiments), my own Knight House (with narrative ties to both my 30k and 40k armies), and even a renegade Tau force comprised of a high number of Gue'vesa and CQC-loving Tau.

But yeah, because I like the new story, I'm "the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own".
I can still make my stories, campaigns and narratives because nothing about these new stories stops me at all. What's stopping you?

Of and now Blood Angels can't fight Tau.
Wrong. 4th and 5th Spheres of Expansion allow for Tau to be nearly anywhere.
Funnily enough, it was more unlikely for Blood Angels to fight Tau pre-8th than currently. Great point.

And they no longer have to wrestle with Black Rage and Red Thirst since a Primarisification solves such problems. Scythes of the Emperor, Flesh Teares and Lamenter are no longer at the brink of extinction since they too got their share of that Primaris goodness, there goes that tension.
Weren't a bunch of Chapters killed off at the Devastation of Baal? Didn't the Lamenters infamously not show up to the battle, indicating some terrible fate befell them? What's stopping you making up your stories about them?

And sure, Cawl says there's no problems with the Primaris. Just like how he also says he didn't use traitor geneseed: oh hi there, Sons of the Phoenix, with your purple, gold and white scheme! Such paragons of Rogal Dorn, aren't you! /s

If you don't think that the new developments in the story have any tension, mystery or depth to them, then honestly, you ain't looking hard enough.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 19:26:13


Post by: Albino Squirrel


Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 19:37:13


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.
That's been the lore for years. Long before Draigo giving Morty open heart surgery.

I believe it's also drawn from lots of real world myths or wider fantasy myths.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 19:40:51


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


Spoiler:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:You see, more and more of the important events seem to center around a small cast of character, incidently ones we know of, on the planets we know of. Rest of the universe is incidental at best and irrelevant at worst. The 400 billion stars of our galaxy are meaningless when a few places we happen to know of have bad things happen in them - suddenly there's a warpstorm bigger than Eye of Terror that is created by setting a gas cloud on fire and blowing few planets, because those happen to be some of the few we know - there for, they are of greater importance that the rest. Apparently the Eldar weren't that mighty, since they only managed to create the Eye -and War in Heaven was even less so, since that didn't create any warpstorm we know of - Old Ones sure were pathetic since Chaos worshipping humans can cause more permanent damage to the galaxy than they did.
Implying that other warzones in the galaxy weren't also centred around other small casts of characters? The third Armageddon War only really featured Ghazghkull, Helbretch (and other Black Templars by proxy), Yarrick, Tu'Shan, and other token Imperial leaders.
The Battle of Macragge only featured Ultramarines, the Swarmlord and Old One Eye.
The Battle of Ichar IV was Calgar, Prince Yriel, and the Swarmlord.

Remind me, how was 40k's lore ever anything other than important events around a select cast? The only difference now is that the consequences of the select cast are larger, which I think is better, as it leads to actual progress and narrative developments.

Even beforehand, whatever Marneus Calgar did had no bearing on what Captain Genericus did. Your Dude, Captain Genericus, can still do what he wants in the Sector Genericus, and while what he does might be irrelevant compared to whatever Dante or Abaddon is doing, it's relevant to Your Dudes. Who cares what's going on elsewhere? If you care that much about Your Dudes, it won't matter.

The Cicatrix opening up was a deliberate action, one powered by a continual stretching of the material plane by Abaddon's Balck Crusades. The Eldar oped the Eye by accident. Abaddon forced it wider by force. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.
The Old Ones weren't trying to rupture space open. Their War in Heaven was relegated almost solely in the Webway and material plane. Chaos are actively trying to rip space open. Hardly the same.

It's all just so badly written - all of 8 ed fluff is so baaaad, its like a bad superhero event comic or a saturday morning cartoon - one where "biggest baddest things evar appears out of nowhere, and is then defeated without a hitch" Ever read the DC crossover "Culling"?
Implying that the constant stalemate and "GUYS IT'S 10 SECONDS TO MIDNIGHT OMG WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN" for over a decade was better?

You can complain about the execution of it all you like. I'm still undecided if I like the execution. What I'm saying is that moving the setting forward and creating actual story events is far better, almost entirely irrespective of execution, than what we had before.

The comic book situation you describe now was far worse pre-8th than now.

When everything the Biggest. Thing. Ever. it all cease to mean anything, the immersion is broken and the thing becomes a game of escalation ad nauseum. " My Superman fires biggerer lazers than you Superman" "Oh Yeah! Well, MY Superman can timetravel with a though" "Well, so does MY Superman, and he can think faster than yours" Yuk.
But that's not what's happening? Things are happening organically, with a reason as to why and how they're occurring. Your point would be valid if things had no reasons for why they happened, but that's not what's happening.

If some random guy suddenly became a Primarch, that would be what you mean.
If the galaxy split open randomly with no cause, that would be what you mean.
If the Tau suddenly appeared on the other side of the galaxy, that would be what you mean.

However, there are REASONS and ACTIONS that dictate how we got here. Rational, narrative reasons. Honestly, your disregard for them makes it sound like you don't actually care about narratives at all.

Endless Superman+1s are bad because they react on a meta level, and are not dictated by the actual narrative. Current 40k is not that.

People who celebrate the "40k finally has a story" seem to be the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own - so they just want to see the existing background people become storys characters. Almost as horrible as crossover fanfics.
That's not a generalization, is it?

I'd like to point out that I've used the developing plot and story in 40k to develop my own homebrew "Your Dudes". My Ultramarines Acting-Captain homebrew, since Guilliman came back, and the Primaris Marines were introduced, has been selected by Guilliman to lead these Primaris Marines and secure a region of space lost in the Plague Wars, and in doing so, redeem himself for a catastrophic failure in a previous campaign.

Aside from my "Your Dudes" Chapter, I'm also keen on creating unique regiments of guardsmen (from plate armoured laslock knights to Swiss-inspired mountain siege infantry, to drop pod using light infantry and nomadic tribe tank regiments), my own Knight House (with narrative ties to both my 30k and 40k armies), and even a renegade Tau force comprised of a high number of Gue'vesa and CQC-loving Tau.

But yeah, because I like the new story, I'm "the sort of folk who have no ability to create any of their own".
I can still make my stories, campaigns and narratives because nothing about these new stories stops me at all. What's stopping you?

Of and now Blood Angels can't fight Tau.
Wrong. 4th and 5th Spheres of Expansion allow for Tau to be nearly anywhere.
Funnily enough, it was more unlikely for Blood Angels to fight Tau pre-8th than currently. Great point.

And they no longer have to wrestle with Black Rage and Red Thirst since a Primarisification solves such problems. Scythes of the Emperor, Flesh Teares and Lamenter are no longer at the brink of extinction since they too got their share of that Primaris goodness, there goes that tension.
Weren't a bunch of Chapters killed off at the Devastation of Baal? Didn't the Lamenters infamously not show up to the battle, indicating some terrible fate befell them? What's stopping you making up your stories about them?

And sure, Cawl says there's no problems with the Primaris. Just like how he also says he didn't use traitor geneseed: oh hi there, Sons of the Phoenix, with your purple, gold and white scheme! Such paragons of Rogal Dorn, aren't you! /s

If you don't think that the new developments in the story have any tension, mystery or depth to them, then honestly, you ain't looking hard enough.


Oh, if only I shared your optimism - but I don't, the currect route the fluff takes won't lead to great stuff. Possibility existed for interesting things, but all was wasted. Primarch returned, better marines got created, galaxy got split in two - all of it wasted, the tension built either forgotten or brushed off with a timeskip - a hundred years and nothing of interest apparently happened.

Everything not Chaos or Imperiums is being relegated to npc status. Humans and Chaos are all that matters now in the story of 40k and rest is chaff, graciously allowed to hang about and provide the occasional help or hinderance. Mark my words, as more Primarchs are added to 40k, more it becomes centered around them.

Its understandable that GW want it to be this way - they got burned so hard on Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror global campaings which failed spectacularly. Now it's just GW pulling the shots since that way they don't need to worry about us pesky players affecting things in the universe. Like that horribly rairoaded Fate of Konor campaing.

Eye of Terror campaing book was by the by great, adding in cool armies, since back in those days GW wasn't as strict with it's "No model No Rules" policy and would release rules for cool stuff that had to be modded, like rules for feral orks, kroot mercenaries, various abhumans and animals. Oh, how those old WDs were cool.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 19:44:22


Post by: BrianDavion


 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.



except it's not 40k lore the concept of true names is an ancient one, dating back to antiquity.
In egyptian mythology, for example, Isis managed to gain the true name of the God Ra through an elbaorate trick and used the complete control over him it gained to force him to put her son Horus on the Throne.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 20:08:23


Post by: Andykp


The new fluff the game has with the rift, I happen to like. It’s given “my dudes” some cool new things to deal with but I still avoid the bigger storylines. I view them as they would be on the planet my game is set on. A distant and far off event with little or no impact on them. The HH was just an mythical age.

I still like the stories about smaller less significant events and people, they tend to be better written as I think the authors have more freedom as they aren’t pushing a marketing idea. Recently read “imperator”. That did a great job of showing off life on a Titan, interactions between classes of people within the ad mech. How the ad mech functions and how “typical” people of types we see in games function. I don’t get that from the HH series or others covering the big events.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 20:16:26


Post by: SickSix


pm713 wrote:
I thought it was just 7 Companies of 120 men each, First Captain is Chapter Master plus support peeps.


Nope. If you read the codexes through the years the information is always contradictory.

7 companies, that are tied to the 7 cities of Prometheus, oh and the 1st company on the moon.

Wait so is it 8 companies?

It's never clear.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 20:19:04


Post by: LunarSol


I'm kind of surprised how many people aren't familiar with "true names". They're a pretty common trope in witchcraft stories.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Ork technology working because all Orks are psykers. It was a hypothesis from a Techpriest who couldn't figure out how Ork technology worked. It was never represented as actual fact.

I'm all for Orks using Waaagh energy to bend the laws of physics. But when I keep getting people telling me they should be able to make all my Ork technology fail by making deny the witch rolls I want to slap them across the head.

Orks work better as instinctual creatures that know how their technology works without consciously thinking about it.

This is a very nit picky problem I have with Orks, but honestly its the only thing I hate about Ork lore.


I do kind of hate the super psyker thing. I'd rather it be the kind of logical failing where the red ones are faster because they paint faster things red and in turn assume that painting things red makes them faster. The reality warping belief stuff is taking them too serious.

Generally speaking, I think 40k fluff is superficially fun, but kind gets stupid when people try to rationalize the logistics. Whenever someone starts attaching numbers to things I go into a pretty heavy eyeroll. I like the setting at its core, emotional appeal, but it doesn't hold up for me when people try to treat it as more than a cool canvas for a game about gratuitous ultra violence.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 21:03:38


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Oh, if only I shared your optimism - but I don't, the currect route the fluff takes won't lead to great stuff. Possibility existed for interesting things, but all was wasted. Primarch returned, better marines got created, galaxy got split in two - all of it wasted, the tension built either forgotten or brushed off with a timeskip - a hundred years and nothing of interest apparently happened.
How did it remove tension? It added more tension and narrative drive to the story overall, not removed it.

Sure, the tension over "is Guilliman going to come back" is gone. That's be replaced with (and in my opinion, for the better) "how will Guilliman hold the Imperium together? What if someone else threatens his control? How will be finally resolve the influence of the Ecclesiarchy? How will Calgar, and other leaders he pushes out of the way, deal with this in the future?"

Then your other point - you first complain about "omg they tell too much story it should be a setting and we shouldn't need to have everything reduced", and then you complain "they didn't tell us what happened in these 100 years, it's all wasted".
They left the 100 years blank if they want to add anything, or, as you seem so concerned about,for YOUR dudes to do something in that time.

There's provision in all the new material for your dudes. Some tension was lost, but more was gained. That's an improvement, in my eyes.

Everything not Chaos or Imperiums is being relegated to npc status. Humans and Chaos are all that matters now in the story of 40k and rest is chaff, graciously allowed to hang about and provide the occasional help or hinderance. Mark my words, as more Primarchs are added to 40k, more it becomes centered around them.
Sorry to break it to you, but 40k has always been human centric. And Chaos, by virtue of their intimate connection with humanity (with most of their mortal armies BEING human) are naturally the main opponent to that. But that shouldn't come as a surprise, because 40k has ALWAYS been like that. Sure, we've had xenos codexes say "oh yeah, we could totally wipe out the whole galaxy", but none have ever been as pervasively opposed to humanity as Chaos have.

That doesn't mean everyone else is an NPC though. Think of this as ASOIAF. Fundamentally, we have two main conflicts - the fight for the Iron Throne, and winter coming. Does that mean that the Iron Islands plot and story were "just NPC" stories? No, because they add to the setting as a whole. Fundamentally, the 40k setting is humanity fighting against the encroaching darkness, that darkness primarily being the threat of Chaos. However, the Eldar have their part to play, the Tyranids add their flavour to the setting, the Tau show us potentials and a light reflection of what the Imperium *could* have been, but at it's utter core, 40k is about humans and their place in the galaxy.

Its understandable that GW want it to be this way - they got burned so hard on Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror global campaings which failed spectacularly. Now it's just GW pulling the shots since that way they don't need to worry about us pesky players affecting things in the universe. Like that horribly rairoaded Fate of Konor campaing.
How was it railroaded? Unless, because the IoM won, you just say it was railroaded.

Again, the problems they had were that those campaigns had stakes that were too large. If Chaos took Cadia, able to control access to and from the Eye of Terror - well, we saw what happened. In their position at the time, GW did not advance the setting, presumably because they hadn't set up a storyboard for the wider universe, and the events of Cadia would alter the entire universe in it's wake. It's why I believe they Konor campaign was on a far smaller scale. Instead of a critical world that would have lasting, galaxy spanning consequences, they chose an important world, but one which didn't have such far reaching implications.

Besides, I got the opinion that you didn't like galaxy-spanning incidents? Konor was perfect in this regard - a small, self-contained story, with no massively lasting consequences in the grand scheme of things.

Eye of Terror campaing book was by the by great, adding in cool armies, since back in those days GW wasn't as strict with it's "No model No Rules" policy and would release rules for cool stuff that had to be modded, like rules for feral orks, kroot mercenaries, various abhumans and animals. Oh, how those old WDs were cool.
Most of what you described there isn't about the setting or lore. That's about the game. And since then, there's been a larger influx of 3rd party groups which GW sees/saw as a threat: Chapterhouse being the main one. Now, this isn't the place for that discussion, but it hasn't got much to do with the setting anyway.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 23:10:36


Post by: pm713


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 23:44:41


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Of all the things GW could have added to the game the primaris marines are the most dull and boring options and this is coming from a marine player. Fluff wise super marines with no flaws, no faults and the imperium suddenly being cool with progress and change is annoying. To me the main appeal for 40k was the good times have came and gone and humanity is slowly but surely losing the good fight.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/15 23:47:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.
Which would you prefer, the Centurion approach ("they were there the whole time!") or the Primaris approach that actually has a story with potential narrative hooks with it?

Dunno about you, but I prefer the Primaris approach.

As for the Sisters, they *did* pop up for a spell during the War of the Beast, I believe, but I think the argument as to why they've been hiding out is because they weren't called upon to act by a high Imperial authority - like what happened with the Custodes.

Unless you'll only be satisfied with "yeah, we didn't make models for them, and we repurposed our 30k stock to introduce this 40k army in 40k", in which case, why are you in the lore section?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 04:37:27


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


Once all the Primarchs are introduced they will be at the center of everything. Since Horus Heresy has been such a success the Primarchs have become too well known and too media sexy to ever suffer anything anymore. Once back in the setting they will hogg all the attention.

The story won't progress, it won't go forward - Primarchs come back and then they'll be the new stagnant status quo. Except now the whole setting is reduced to a single storyline that revolves around them beating their each other up again, and again, and again... and again.

Don't you see - Nothing will change, the setting will never really progress anywhere. The old stagnant atleast had an illusion that some of the threats could overcome the humans, in a nebulous "eventually" - that Tyranids will "eventually" swarm across the galaxy, devouring all life in it, or Necrons will "eventually" take over the galaxy - now, such thing will never happen, the illusion is broken. All that remains is Primarchs, killing chaff and fighting their each other in endless repetition.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 11:18:11


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Once all the Primarchs are introduced they will be at the center of everything. Since Horus Heresy has been such a success the Primarchs have become too well known and too media sexy to ever suffer anything anymore. Once back in the setting they will hogg all the attention.
If. If all the Primarchs return. And if they do, I still doubt it'll be all about them. In 30k, it's that way because the xenos presence in the game itself is limited. In 40k, because of lots of xenos factions, they can't risk not appeasing them too.

And frankly, if they did bring them back(barring the ones who are dead, don't want them coming back), is that a bad thing? They're some of the more developed characters in 40k, with plenty of narrative connections and relationships they can use, they make for popular models and therefore good revenue.
Furthermore, they're not stopping you making your own stories. Hell, even in 30k, the fact that no Primarchs were dead still doesn't stop me having my own stories and "Your Dudes". Just because GW want to make stories about some of the more developed and interesting characters in their setting doesn't stop me from making stories of my dudes.

Seriously, just because GW focus on something doesn't mean you have to.

The story won't progress, it won't go forward - Primarchs come back and then they'll be the new stagnant status quo. Except now the whole setting is reduced to a single storyline that revolves around them beating their each other up again, and again, and again... and again.
And your proof being?
Since Primarchs came back, we've seen more story progression than every before.

And funny you should say about "reduced to a single storyline" - implying that it wasn't like that before the Gathering Storm? I mean, sure, we had several battlefields and notable planets, but everything seemed to draw into them. And yet, as you and I prove, we could have "Your Dudes" in that setting. So what would stop you from doing the same later?

If you want Your Dudes, have them. Who cares if GW only tell stories about the Primarchs? Your Dudes could be fighting for them, or they could do their own thing. Imagination, forging narratives and all that.

Don't you see - Nothing will change, the setting will never really progress anywhere. The old stagnant atleast had an illusion that some of the threats could overcome the humans, in a nebulous "eventually" - that Tyranids will "eventually" swarm across the galaxy, devouring all life in it, or Necrons will "eventually" take over the galaxy - now, such thing will never happen, the illusion is broken. All that remains is Primarchs, killing chaff and fighting their each other in endless repetition.
Again, implying that it wasn't stagnant before, and everything happened in "endless repetition"?

There's still the illusion things will end badly for humanity - Orks are getting bigger and more united, Tyranids are pushing further and further in, more Necron tombs are awakening, the Ynnari are coming closer to killing Slaanesh, and Chaos have split the galaxy in half. But yeah, some taller Space Marines and a single Primarch coming back mean the Imperium is saved! /s

I don't understand your argument. First you complain that GW advance the story too much, and railroad "Your Dudes" (which is false). Then you complain that the setting won't change, and everything will just remain stagnant (which is exactly what we had before, and also a false assumption). Considering the contradiction, it just sounds like you want to complain about the fact that things changed for the sake of complaining.

I'll say it again: whatever GW decide to tell in their story, the setting is still open to you. You can have Your Dudes be pre-Gathering Storm, mid-Indomitus Crusade, current timeline, or even during the War of the Beast/Beheading. GW cannot stop that. What's stopping you?


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 12:08:47


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah heaven forbid Roboute think to himself "Maybe these guys need some reinforcements". You don't NEED to buy the Primaris models if you want to. It just means your snowflake Chapter isn't gonna be killed off that quickly for fluff purposes.

But thank goodness he just happened to have armies waiting for him when he was revived. That are in fact BETTER than all the existing ones. And the Sisters of Silence who were gone for 10'000 years were brought back NOW at the same time the Custodes started doing things.

Dumb additions are not a good thing and not buying Primaris doesn't make the fact that GW **** on their lore better.
Which would you prefer, the Centurion approach ("they were there the whole time!") or the Primaris approach that actually has a story with potential narrative hooks with it?

Dunno about you, but I prefer the Primaris approach.

As for the Sisters, they *did* pop up for a spell during the War of the Beast, I believe, but I think the argument as to why they've been hiding out is because they weren't called upon to act by a high Imperial authority - like what happened with the Custodes.

Unless you'll only be satisfied with "yeah, we didn't make models for them, and we repurposed our 30k stock to introduce this 40k army in 40k", in which case, why are you in the lore section?

It doesn't have any hooks because they just appeared as better than everyone. They were effectively the same as Centurions.

If they'd been a tech priest finding an STC or something that enabled a new kind of armour I'd agree because thats better than Primaris.

The Beast War was thousands of years ago so Sisters have just been chilling doing nothing by themselves?

Honestly, I'd rather that honesty from GW. But that won't happen so I'd take the idea that the Sisters are the result of new experiments, Custodes are out to keep an eye on Roboute and Cawl and rather than have 100% guaranteed loyal Roboute have a more important split between the Imperiums sides. If they insist of abandoning the idea of a setting they can at least put a decent effort into it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 13:16:49


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
It doesn't have any hooks because they just appeared as better than everyone. They were effectively the same as Centurions.
So what about the narratives of integrating the new Primaris Marines, many of whom were around during the time of the Great Crusade?
The narratives of the old Marines and their place in the changing world?
The possibility of Cawl being wrong about the Primaris being "perfect"?

Plenty of room there.

If they'd been a tech priest finding an STC or something that enabled a new kind of armour I'd agree because thats better than Primaris.
Maybe so. But I think having Primaris is better than nothing changing at all.

The Beast War was thousands of years ago so Sisters have just been chilling doing nothing by themselves?
Yup. Or, if you take initiative, maybe Your Dudes found a group of Sisters of Silence before Guilliman roused all of them to action, and they fought together? Or Your Dudes of Sisters of Silence were out there doing things in the meantime.
Just because GW didn't say that's what they did doesn't mean you can't have Your Dudes do it.

You don't need permission from GW to have your characters do things. If they go against the hard limits of the setting, or affect named characters irrevocably, then that could be an issue, but a team of Sisters of Silence out there doing something? Sure, go ahead.

Honestly, I'd rather that honesty from GW. But that won't happen so I'd take the idea that the Sisters are the result of new experiments, Custodes are out to keep an eye on Roboute and Cawl and rather than have 100% guaranteed loyal Roboute have a more important split between the Imperiums sides. If they insist of abandoning the idea of a setting they can at least put a decent effort into it.
Sure, you can believe what you want to. But I personally think that, at least with Guilliman having 100% (well, slightly less than 100%, but hyperbole) loyalty, it makes sense.

They've not abandoned the setting. They've moved on the stagnant mess it was, and introduced some dynamic motion to it. If you don't like that, you can have all your stuff set before then. If you don't like it, ignore it, and play your games in 999999.M41.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 13:23:53


Post by: pm713


The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 13:49:43


Post by: jeff white


BrianDavion wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(


pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority


Hear me . named characters in nonnarrative games is and the model for Girlymahn is


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 14:03:36


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:
The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.
I'll agree that, to avoid story stagnancy, setting more campaigns and stories in the years between the Heresy and the Gathering Storm would have been a good idea.

However, that was only a potential option, and I have nothing against moving the setting and story forward beyond the previous stagnant limits. Of course, you do seem to, and I doubt we will agree on that.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 14:23:49


Post by: pm713


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
The setting was good the way it was. The lack of narrative campaigns producing events wasn't. I think the solution was to make campaigns etc in the time period GW ignores between M33-41.

But I think the source of the disagreement is based in the setting issue. You seem to prefer the moving setting of now whereas I do not so we can't agree.
I'll agree that, to avoid story stagnancy, setting more campaigns and stories in the years between the Heresy and the Gathering Storm would have been a good idea.

However, that was only a potential option, and I have nothing against moving the setting and story forward beyond the previous stagnant limits. Of course, you do seem to, and I doubt we will agree on that.

Without disagreeing about things there'd never anything to discuss.

But there always going to be that bit of me thinking "instead of all this Gathering Storm stuff we could have had Cardinal Bucharis".


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 15:08:18


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


I do have to agree that Gathering and its follow up was a logical - but still too extreme, in my opinion - way to go forward.

Sadly making campaings and stories like Beast Rising tend to hit a snag with GWs modern policy of only making fluff to support models - for example, atleast according to a rumor, the intended ending with Men of Iron had to be cut from Beast Rising, since they don't have models. I doubt modern Gw is willing to make Eye of Terror type campaings full of armylist and units that need to be converted and proxied - let alone making models of limited use for, say, soldiers of Nova Terra for a supplement set during Nova Terra Interregnum.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 15:12:54


Post by: pm713


That seems like a poor policy to me. For example for a Nova Terra campaign you could use Guard models or just live with things being in stories without models. It doesn't all have to be about models.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 15:16:16


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


For Gw it is


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 16:28:31


Post by: Albino Squirrel


BrianDavion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.



except it's not 40k lore the concept of true names is an ancient one, dating back to antiquity.
In egyptian mythology, for example, Isis managed to gain the true name of the God Ra through an elbaorate trick and used the complete control over him it gained to force him to put her son Horus on the Throne.


Yes, it IS part of the 40k lore. As has been pointed out, it was relevant in a couple of recent stories. If you are saying that anything that was inspired by real life or prior fiction doesn't count as part of the lore, than nothing is 40k lore.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 17:02:23


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 jeff white wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Of course they'll bring them back.
Then everyone will rage in the forums.
Then they'll talk about how awesome the spoilers look for the new models.
Then about how amazing it is on the table top.
Then about what broken combos it makes, when you can field Magnus and Mort- Uh, Gulliman and Sanguinus in the same army.
Then they'll all buy the model.

Then the cycle will repeat with the next super hero... Super heavy... Primark... Stupid-unfluffy-unit... Whatever it is.
Because that's what we always do.


Or we still keep saying it sucks and shouldn't exists. Here certainly are no primaris, no guillimann, no whatever newest nonsense.

But yeah they will release all 21 primarch for 40k sooner or later :(


pople will rage about gulliman for a bit but in the end they'll accept it or quit. even now those opposed to gulliman are a vocal minority


Hear me . named characters in nonnarrative games is and the model for Girlymahn is

Oh look the anti-named character person. Lemme guess: everything has been bad after 3rd edition?

Also Roboute's model really isn't bad outside maybe the face, but I hate bare faces so helmets every time for me.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 17:11:15


Post by: BrianDavion


Problem with a historical focus can be summed up in one word. Xenos. Aside from the Eldar, and the Orks, most Xenos races are reasonably new to the scene.

Tyranids, first recorded contact? M 41 754
Tau: We know the first major military confrontation was the Damocles crusade of 742 M41. even if we're generous and assume they'd been on the scene for over a century before that it's still second half of M41.
Necrons: The first open conflict was Sanctuary 101. in 897 M 41


so a lotta the Xenos races are restricted to the second half of M41 which would be a snag if you wanted to do historical based supplements, eneugh of one that if I was running GW I'd be a bit concerned. That said, I would like to see some sourcebooks for historic battles. I'd LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE a "1st war for armageddon" book, and IMHO I'd be a perfect way to give Grey Knights some love, AND finally stat out Angron.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 17:15:18


Post by: Andykp


Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 17:36:10


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Andykp wrote:
Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.


Most special characters aren't even that good. Never got the irrational hate that they inspire.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 18:22:33


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


pm713 wrote:But there always going to be that bit of me thinking "instead of all this Gathering Storm stuff we could have had Cardinal Bucharis".
That could have been cool, but the issue I felt was that 999.M41 felt too saturated - like pressure building up in a valve. Filling stuff up behind the valve wouldn't have prevented the build-up of lore at 999.M41. Gathering Storm gave enough breathing room to flesh out and add more to the "current" timeline.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:I do have to agree that Gathering and its follow up was a logical - but still too extreme, in my opinion - way to go forward.
That's fair enough. It was logical, and I think it was okay, but if you disagree, you're allowed that opinion.

Sadly making campaings and stories like Beast Rising tend to hit a snag with GWs modern policy of only making fluff to support models - for example, atleast according to a rumor, the intended ending with Men of Iron had to be cut from Beast Rising, since they don't have models. I doubt modern Gw is willing to make Eye of Terror type campaings full of armylist and units that need to be converted and proxied - let alone making models of limited use for, say, soldiers of Nova Terra for a supplement set during Nova Terra Interregnum.
And how would the models/units from 40k look any different than the ones in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

As we know, by the Scouring, Mark 7 Aquila armour was in circulation, guardsmen can already be in a massive variety of uniforms and aesthetic, so that's no difference. I doubt any other faction changed aesthetic sufficiently, so it probably isn't the models completely affecting things. I won't deny that Beast Rising was like that, but considering that GW hadn't really done any Eye of Terror things for quite a while in 5th-7th (and then did a similar one for the Fate of Konor), I don't think it's a nu-GW problem.

Why do you need to wait for GW to make a campaign? There's enough room in the setting to forge your own.

Andykp wrote:Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.
Why not? If you're taking an Ultramarines battle company, and you're taking a Captain, you have a 1 in 10 chance of that captain being Sicarius. In fact, it's closer to 1 in 4, because the Captains of the 1st and 10th Companies only really deploy with their respective companies (which don't form battle companies), and the reserve companies are less often deployed, so your main options are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies. Therefore, in an Ultramarines Battle Company, you have a 25% chance that it would be Sicarius who is commanding it.


Worst lore ever written? @ 2018/08/16 20:15:37


Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And how would the models/units from 40k look any different than the ones in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

As we know, by the Scouring, Mark 7 Aquila armour was in circulation, guardsmen can already be in a massive variety of uniforms and aesthetic, so that's no difference. I doubt any other faction changed aesthetic sufficiently, so it probably isn't the models completely affecting things. I won't deny that Beast Rising was like that, but considering that GW hadn't really done any Eye of Terror things for quite a while in 5th-7th (and then did a similar one for the Fate of Konor), I don't think it's a nu-GW problem.

Why do you need to wait for GW to make a campaign? There's enough room in the setting to forge your own.


Point is not that fans couldn't do what they want on their own - It's that GW is wasting a perfectly good material - instead they are pulling changes that, at first, seem titanic, like splitting the whole galaxy apart, which in the end still won't affect the all mighty status quo making them pointless if the point of the story was to change the setting.

If the setting had to become a advancing storyline, it should have happened slowly and carefully, over both a long in-universe, and a real life time, as in real life large changes happen often happen too slowly for average joe to even notice - I mean, no one woke up one day in 14th centuary and was like "Oh, the Renaissance arrived" . Now, now we're stuck with a hurried story, in which no matter what happens, nothing will change - especially when the Primarchs are concerned, since with the success of HH they have become too media sexy for anything to happen to them - whereas the likes of Aun'va and Tycho could be killed off, as they were, it is not so with the Primarchs since the only thing that can provide a challenge for them besides their each other, is some BigBad on a level of Primorks, who will end up getting killed with MacGuffins, as Primeorks did.

It so sad to see the potential wasted only so GW gets a chance to pull some fast fancy sounding media stunts like "The Primarchs Return" which are eye-catching but soddily executed and full of hot air. Its mediocre and lazy and should be criticised as such.