It's effectively heavy 3.5, which doesn't really do much to hordes, it would be scary to vehicles, except it's range is awful. If you decide to pony up for three of them you win a bobby prize Stratagem that isn't horrible.
Here's all I can say for it, as I run one on occasion for my CSM.
1) Relatively cheap. Around 127 points with a combi-bolter on top.
2) Toughness 8, something you get very little of with Space Marine vehicles outside of the Land Raider. This, of course, means small arms (boltguns, etc.) will only wound on a 6+, so it doesn't die to small arms fire like a Predator does.
3) The gun sucks at what it should do - killing masses of infantry or destroying buildings/cover...but excels at killing big stuff. It's oddly a very good anti-tank, anti-monster gun...but has only 24" range. While we're discussing this, I would have loved to see more siege style weapons in this game simply ignore cover - giving them a vague purpose in the game (or heck, even inflict additional damage to units in cover - bringing ruins and bunkers down on top of people).
Is it amazing or "competitive"? I doubt it. But it's tough and cheap enough to field for fun.
Are you a WYSIWYG player? If so, then don't bother. If not, get it. Since you say you like it, buy it, model it. Paint it and have fun. Then play it as something else.
The two things Vindicators are great for is Dreadnaught equivelents, and super heavies.
A Vindicator can give or take kill a Dreadnaught/Helbrute/etc. in a single turn, and half health a SH the same way. The 8 strength on the cannon means it will be wounding on 4's for the big boys, and 3's for the bulky elites, and with -4 AP the only thing really saving most things are invuln saves. (most super heavies ive ever seen have a 3+ , and only a handful have even a semblance of ++.)
Bare in mind, a Predator with 4 Lascannons can do roughly the same job...But it also costs about 65 points more. It's up to you if you think it's worth it, especially considering the Vindicator is tougher to kill than a Predator.
24", Heavy D3, Strength 10, -3 Save, D6 damage (slight off what Vaklor mentioned above).
So yes, on a good roll it can wipe out almost anything in the game with a single round if lucky (capable of putting out 18 wounds). Becomes Heavy D6 if it engages a unit with 5+ models (so killing at most 6 infantry, but could wipe out things like Terminators, Wraithguard, or bikes easily).
vaklor4 wrote: The two things Vindicators are great for is Dreadnaught equivelents, and super heavies.
A Vindicator can give or take kill a Dreadnaught/Helbrute/etc. in a single turn, and half health a SH the same way. The 8 strength on the cannon means it will be wounding on 4's for the big boys, and 3's for the bulky elites, and with -4 AP the only thing really saving most things are invuln saves. (most super heavies ive ever seen have a 3+ , and only a handful have even a semblance of ++.)
Bare in mind, a Predator with 4 Lascannons can do roughly the same job...But it also costs about 65 points more. It's up to you if you think it's worth it, especially considering the Vindicator is tougher to kill than a Predator.
The vindicator wil do 8 wounds to a dreadnought 1.8% of the time. 43% of the time it does nothing. It's average is only 1.6.
Quad lascannon does 8 wounds to a dreadnought 7.2% of the time and averages 3.16 whilst doing nothing only 20% of the time.
4 shots is way better than D3. When the quad Las pred is twice as good against what you're suggesting is the vindicator's optimal target why wouldn't you pay 65 points more?
I think a vindicator can be a decent include in some lists. It's very cheap, and can fill a variety of roles depending on the situation. Its optimal targets are heavy infantry like Tyranid Warriors, Necron Destroyers, etc. It can make up it's points very quickly when shooting at stuff like that. It also works as anti-tank in a pinch (although it's definitely not the best anti tank option). Don't discount it's toughness either. Even if you aren't getting ton of value with it's shooting, the fact that it's a T8 11W brick can be all you need from it. I've charged with mine plenty of times just to tie things up - it's certainly not gonna die to shooty units in close combat. Lastly, the stratagem is pretty good if you have 3 of them, as it lets you move them all forward turn 1 and essentially "shoot" with no penalty. This kinda lets you circumvent the awful range it has.
The main problem with the vindicator is that it's optimal target already has a ton of weapons that counter it (ie plasma), so the vindicator isn't really needed for that purpose. Also, it's terrible against hordes, which is a big problem to have nowadays. The high variance of the demolisher cannon (D3 -D6 shots with D6 damage) doesn't do it any favors either.
In summary, can it be good? Sure. Is it the best choice? Definitely not.
Vindicators are good and cheap. They work best in an army that will be advancing up the field, as they like to have some protection from assault and they're quite greedy about getting buffs from Captains and Lieutenants. They kick like a mule and work best targeting tough units like tanks or heavy infantry.
The Linebreaker strategem is not very good, so I would not recommend taking three 3 tanks just to pull that off. However, it can be good against and army that fields massed big things, like Tyranids or Tau.
To be honest imho if you want a vindicator, soup in a catachan leman russ demolisher. It's a few more points but get's two vindicators worth of shooting per turn with rerolling d3 plus heavy bolter or lascannon and is also t8 so no loss. Ok its BS4+ but so is a moving vindicator.
Wound those annoying battlesuits that are soon to clutter the table on 2s.
Linebreaker Bombardment doesn't care about move penalties
Yes, its gun is only 24", but with a 10" move you're reaching 34" on top of your 12" (usually) deployment zone. Which means you can reach most anything.
T8
Dark Reapers can only wound it on 4s.
Great at killing infantry. Still good at hurting vehicles
Save your CP rerolls (or Gaze of Fate) to keep the shots up.
I normally use one Vindicator with my Dark Angels.
It cheaps, it offers good LOS blocking space. T8 isn't common in Space Marine armoury so is nice to have something that is harder to kill than a predator, rhino or razorback but not as expensive as a Landraider.
And his gun can absolutely criple or One-Shot most vehicles out there with a bit of luck. And its great agaisnt elite squads.
The vindicator wil do 8 wounds to a dreadnought 1.8% of the time. 43% of the time it does nothing. It's average is only 1.6.
Quad lascannon does 8 wounds to a dreadnought 7.2% of the time and averages 3.16 whilst doing nothing only 20% of the time.
4 shots is way better than D3. When the quad Las pred is twice as good against what you're suggesting is the vindicator's optimal target why wouldn't you pay 65 points more?
Two quad las preds : 380 points
Three vindicators : 375 points
+ 50% more wounds at T8 no less
- effectively 6 LC shots vs 8 for the predators
+ easier access to Linbreaker than to Killshot
+ increased effectiveness vs T5 and the very rare T9
+ also effective versus infantry
I'm not directly advocating for Vindicators. I use one here and there, but there are factors that should be considered.
Ice_can wrote: To be honest imho if you want a vindicator, soup in a catachan leman russ demolisher. It's a few more points but get's two vindicators worth of shooting per turn with rerolling d3 plus heavy bolter or lascannon and is also t8 so no loss. Ok its BS4+ but so is a moving vindicator.
Yea, most marine tanks are rubbish. The LR demolisher has 1 mote wound, dishes out twice the shots, hitting the same efficiency, and costs only 40pts more.
I'd also have to point out again the 8 toughness. I know it seems like "lolwat why does +1 matter", but against melta equivelents it's a 4+, against bolter equivelents its a 2+, and most melee big boys like Carnifexes and Helbrutes have a 7 strength, meaning any 2x strength weapons like fists are still only getting a 3+ to wound. The difference between 7 and 8 toughness is incredibly important in 8th.
Ice_can wrote: To be honest imho if you want a vindicator, soup in a catachan leman russ demolisher. It's a few more points but get's two vindicators worth of shooting per turn with rerolling d3 plus heavy bolter or lascannon and is also t8 so no loss. Ok its BS4+ but so is a moving vindicator.
Yea, most marine tanks are rubbish. The LR demolisher has 1 mote wound, dishes out twice the shots, hitting the same efficiency, and costs only 40pts more.
Well, the Leman Russ Demolisher is absolutely garbage anyway. I would never recommend you take one anyway. Also, considering that the Demolisher Cannon is 40 points, that sounds about as expected for the increase in cost. Avoid both.
The Demolisher Cannon being D3 is the big problem, because it doesn't do s***. For what it's worth, the Vindicator is cheap-ish, while a Predator Annihilator is not. However, I've always had and seen noticeably better performances from Predators than Vindicators, even at 65 points more, which doesn't totally seem to add up mathematically.
The Demolisher Cannon being D3 is the big problem, because it doesn't do s***. For what it's worth, the Vindicator is cheap-ish.
I think there's a huge perception problem with random shot weapons. Rolling one shot and then missing is a huge letdown, but it's not indicative of its value.
I've have a vindicator totally crush targets and then whiff for an entire game. I've had the same thing happen with obliterators.
Skipping the quality pros and cons...consider this (assuming the marine one is the same cost as the CSM one) it's 127 points.
If you're playing 1500-2000 point games you can probably spare that just for something you like the looks of. You're not going to find a whole lot else which is better for those points (or has Toughness 8). We're not saying it's mega competitive, but it's a tiny enough price - if you like it (like I do) it's hardly going to be a tax.
Elbows wrote: Skipping the quality pros and cons...consider this (assuming the marine one is the same cost as the CSM one) it's 127 points.
If you're playing 1500-2000 point games you can probably spare that just for something you like the looks of. You're not going to find a whole lot else which is better for those points (or has Toughness 8). We're not saying it's mega competitive, but it's a tiny enough price - if you like it (like I do) it's hardly going to be a tax.
Yeah, thats my mentality at the time of creating lists. 300-500 points can easy go to things that are a little weak, even 100 points can go to something that is a big "MEH", but that I really, really love.
The rest of the points go to a strong competitive core that can carry the list (Not carry in the sense of winning games, but in the sense of no matter what I have in front, I can have a good and thight game with my opponent), and some others unit that are middle-of-the-road in the power scale. Balanced units.
For example with my Dark Angels I usually run the Azrael-deathstar with Chapter Ancient, Hellblasters and agressors, and I normally use both assault and plasma Inceptors.
But I use too scout snipers, some Deathwing terminators, a bunch of tactical squads, company veterans in rhinos, etc... things that I like to play and can do work but that aren't gonna burn down Rome.
Precisely. I probably bring more models that I like than ones I know are good/effective (my win/loss ration probably reflects this). But if we pretend for a moment your goal isn't to win LVO, 127 points is never gonna kill your army.
If you like it, take it. Maybe don't build a tournament army around it, lol.
It's pretty mediocre because Space Marines don't have the equivalent of a Catachan doctrine that gets rid of all the variance in shooting their main gun. So a Vindicator can either be backbreaking or entirely useless. It's just not the kind of unit I like to run.
meleti wrote: It's pretty mediocre because Space Marines don't have the equivalent of a Catachan doctrine that gets rid of all the variance in shooting their main gun. So a Vindicator can either be backbreaking or entirely useless. It's just not the kind of unit I like to run.
I still dream about using Linebreaker. Putting 6 mortal wounds on 3 or 4 units just seems way too fun. And if they're smart enough they'll spread out more, which makes it easier to do a refused flank. Or at least in theory.
The vindicator wil do 8 wounds to a dreadnought 1.8% of the time. 43% of the time it does nothing. It's average is only 1.6.
Quad lascannon does 8 wounds to a dreadnought 7.2% of the time and averages 3.16 whilst doing nothing only 20% of the time.
4 shots is way better than D3. When the quad Las pred is twice as good against what you're suggesting is the vindicator's optimal target why wouldn't you pay 65 points more?
Two quad las preds : 380 points
Three vindicators : 375 points
+ 50% more wounds at T8 no less
- effectively 6 LC shots vs 8 for the predators
+ easier access to Linbreaker than to Killshot
+ increased effectiveness vs T5 and the very rare T9
+ also effective versus infantry
I'm not directly advocating for Vindicators. I use one here and there, but there are factors that should be considered.
Absolutely. But killing dreads and super heavies is not it.
Absolutely. But killing dreads and super heavies is not it.
Sure, but...
2 Las Preds vs Dreadnought: 10.3
3 Vindicators vs Dreadnought : 3.9 to 11.6; 7.8 average
But ponder this. What does your two las preds do versus the winning LVO list? Kill the wave serpents and then shoot infantry with lascannons?
At that point you're pulling out 8 shots and the vindicators are averaging 10. And I wouldn't be shy about doing CP rerolls.
The predators are 32% better against vehicles and the vindicators are 25% better against units of 5 models or more (more so vs T5). With 11 more wounds on the table that are much more resilient to Dark Reapers (29%).
The numbers are close and I don't think they should be discounted. I don't run them, because I don't own 3 yet and if I did I wouldn't have the time, but others should give it a spin.
Absolutely. But killing dreads and super heavies is not it.
Sure, but...
2 Las Preds vs Dreadnought: 10.3
3 Vindicators vs Dreadnought : 3.9 to 11.6; 7.8 average
But ponder this. What does your two las preds do versus the winning LVO list? Kill the wave serpents and then shoot infantry with lascannons?
At that point you're pulling out 8 shots and the vindicators are averaging 10. And I wouldn't be shy about doing CP rerolls.
The predators are 32% better against vehicles and the vindicators are 25% better against units of 5 models or more (more so vs T5). With 11 more wounds on the table that are much more resilient to Dark Reapers (29%).
The numbers are close and I don't think they should be discounted. I don't run them, because I don't own 3 yet and if I did I wouldn't have the time, but others should give it a spin.
Ok I will grab a mates vindicator and try out the 3 of them, cheers dude
Absolutely. But killing dreads and super heavies is not it.
Sure, but...
2 Las Preds vs Dreadnought: 10.3
3 Vindicators vs Dreadnought : 3.9 to 11.6; 7.8 average
But ponder this. What does your two las preds do versus the winning LVO list? Kill the wave serpents and then shoot infantry with lascannons?
At that point you're pulling out 8 shots and the vindicators are averaging 10. And I wouldn't be shy about doing CP rerolls.
The predators are 32% better against vehicles and the vindicators are 25% better against units of 5 models or more (more so vs T5). With 11 more wounds on the table that are much more resilient to Dark Reapers (29%).
The numbers are close and I don't think they should be discounted. I don't run them, because I don't own 3 yet and if I did I wouldn't have the time, but others should give it a spin.
Well except the Vindicators aren't really killing infantry that well either and have to be close, which means they likely did move.
For the sake of fun though we will assume they didn't move. That's only 2.5 shots more in a more dangerous position (They're D6 on 5 man units right?) And you're wounding everything the same besides T5. You still want dedicated anti-infantry.
Well except the Vindicators aren't really killing infantry that well either and have to be close, which means they likely did move.
For the sake of fun though we will assume they didn't move. That's only 2.5 shots more in a more dangerous position (They're D6 on 5 man units right?) And you're wounding everything the same besides T5. You still want dedicated anti-infantry.
We'll you're not popping guardsmen with them, but more elite stuff. Against IG i'd be aiming for Linebreaker as i'm sure to hit tons of units. They'll definitely need support, which is why I envision a Daemon Prince running behind them healing and putting -1 to hit on the weakest and making anything good in CC a little hesitant. Space marines would have to think of something else for support - maybe a dreadnought. Depending on targets they may only need to move the first turn, which there's CP to ignore penalty for one or just Linebreaker to start.
I ran one in my Glass City GT list. It did fine. Not great, but fine. It died quickly one game. 2 games it didn't die at all. Things of note, it blew a carnefex to paste on turn 2 and turned a few tyrant guards into paste following that. Against a triple Wraithknight list, it was pretty nice having that strength 10. Other than that, it barely made its point back or broke even.
So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.
I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.
Formosa wrote: So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.
I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.
Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.
Formosa wrote: So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.
I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.
Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.
Yep that's accurate, the combination of cheap T8 and -1 to hit was a deal breaker, it meant that the battle cannons that would usually shred my tanks were hitting on a 5+ and my shroud was always turbo boosting for the 4++ so it also survived fairly easily, but the main thing was that these cheap tanks were able to distract from my main force which kept firing away all game.
I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.
kombatwombat wrote: I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.
I actually like this idea. At the very least the ability to ignore the -1 to hit for moving would go a long way.
Primark G wrote: It is a fire magnet quite often which is pretty good IMO. It can take some effort to eliminate too.
Yep. I think it could work as a decent Distraction Carnifex. The gun is nasty enough that the enemy probably wants to stop it, and it is tough enough that it will take some effort to destroy.
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
Got to say that Dark Angel tanks with RR 1'S to hit naturally would be a tad nasty, imagine a assault cannon razor spam with RR to hit and -1 to be shotduentonthe dark shroud, it would also invalidate our captains as backfield RR buffs, not a bad thing per say.
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
I really hope that Chapter/Legion tactics are extended to buff the whole army like every other faction. Ultramarine Land Raiders able to fall back and shoot. Raven Guard Predator Spearhead detachments with -1 to hit etc. Although White Scar and Black Templars would be abandoned in droves if that was the case though.
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
I really hope that Chapter/Legion tactics are extended to buff the whole army like every other faction. Ultramarine Land Raiders able to fall back and shoot. Raven Guard Predator Spearhead detachments with -1 to hit etc. Although White Scar and Black Templars would be abandoned in droves if that was the case though.
Would definitely buff up SM in general.
I hope so too but given custodes don't apply theirs to land raiders and dreads "Cause reasons" I'm not holding my breath
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.
It's really the only stratagem worth using on the codex. It's requirements are just silly though. 3 preds being alive? You almost have to take 4 to ensure you ever get to use it.
Xenomancers wrote: Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.
In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.
I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.
It's really the only stratagem worth using on the codex. It's requirements are just silly though. 3 preds being alive? You almost have to take 4 to ensure you ever get to use it.
You know, one quick fix you could do is just put spikes on all your stuff and start playing Chaos Space Marines if you're gonna be a salt muffin about the SM Codex ;D
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
I think if you want to change the number of shots, the gun needs to decrease. I'd be fine if it was something crazy like Heavy 2D6...BUT...it'd have to then be Strength 5, -2, 1 damage etc.
Heck, having two ammunition rounds would be something that would make the Demolisher cannon more interesting. A bunker breaker round (as it is now), and a high explosive round, etc.
kombatwombat wrote: I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.
So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.
Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.
You could always spend a cp and reroll that dice. But yeah random shot mechanics are busted. Anywhere between 0 and 18 damage is mental.
Also S10 24 vrs S9 48 meh 3+for most things as T9 is rare. Both D6 damage just not enough extra for the loss of 24 range
So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.
Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.
Fair enough you think it’d need to be more expensive with the 3+ and Grinding Advance, at least then it’d have a purpose instead of being a tough-ish tank that hits like a wet noodle.
So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.
Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.
Fair enough you think it’d need to be more expensive with the 3+ and Grinding Advance, at least then it’d have a purpose instead of being a tough-ish tank that hits like a wet noodle.
I can agree that it hits like a wet noodle, russes did so too before the grinding advance. So I have no problem with the vindicator getting grinding advance, along with a point hike that should go with it. Only thought it would be too cheap at 140 points. Of course it could be so that both the vindicator and the russ demolisher is both over costed for what they do.
I much prefer it at the current cost, really. I use the gun more against elite infantry than I do tanks, but it never hits like a wet noodle as long as my dice aren't terrible.
I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.
Elbows wrote: I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.
Mathematically it looks fairly decent, actually. At 127 points, it offers the effective equivalent of 1d3 Lascannon shots at 24" on a T8 platform compared to a 192 point Predator that offers 4 Lascannon shots at 48" on a T7 platform. Even considering that the Vindicator has to move, it seems like it's a good deal, considering that it's 65 points less. Compared to a Lasback, you're getting +1T for 5 points and the range reduction.
Now, I neither use Vindicators myself nor do I frequently have them used against me, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with them. However, I would hazard that they're unliked for the same reason that I don't particularly like the Exorcist's stats: that is, that the tank's gun simply doesn't do enough in the first place to warrant it's base cost. A unit's resiliency is only as relevant as the enemy cares about the unit in question, and a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon doesn't lend itself to being a target. While the tank chassis and cannon may be fairly priced for their characteristics independently of each other, the cannon's performance doesn't warrant the tank chassis's defensive statline.
D6 shots at D6 damage and costing 160/175 points would be usable, but it would need a cost reduction to the point where it's broken due to resiliency at it's current statline.
Elbows wrote: I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.
It really isn't that usable. The Predator is worth the extra points and if you have to choose between the two you ought to make points for the Predator.
But that's not entirely the point of this thread is it? The OP said they like the model. So unless it's an absolute turd on treads - the consensus is use one.
I just made a 1kson list with 3 vindicators. The Line Breaker stratagem is what I am counting on to make them work. The stratagem not only ignores the -1 to hit from movement but the Demo cannons an effective 34 inch range and 3d3 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at (luck depending).
Because I am running 1ksons I get a possible re-roll due to Gaze of Fate on top of the command point re-roll. So you can reroll if linebreaker does not stick and one of the mortal wound die 3. On average you are looking at 6 mortal wounds on your target.
I'm sure there are targets and times where you would just rather roll the cannon's instead of the stratagem. And that is great, saves you a command point.
The price is what makes these guys decent imho. Also it add's three targets to the table your opponent wont want to ignore after he gets punched by them (luck depending). Target saturation is important in the alpha strike meta.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: However, I would hazard that they're unliked for the same reason that I don't particularly like the Exorcist's stats: that is, that the tank's gun simply doesn't do enough in the first place to warrant it's base cost. A unit's resiliency is only as relevant as the enemy cares about the unit in question, and a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon doesn't lend itself to being a target. While the tank chassis and cannon may be fairly priced for their characteristics independently of each other, the cannon's performance doesn't warrant the tank chassis's defensive statline.
You’ve hit the nail on the head here. They could make it 200 points and give it the Fellblade’s statline and it still wouldn’t be very good. It simply isn’t dangerous enough to worth targeting when there is scarier stuff to deal with. It’s actually the exact opposite problem the Razorback had - its chassis is only worth 60 or 65 points (it has less capacity than a Rhino and no self-repair function), and the twin Assault Cannon is worth 44, but chassis + gun is worth more than 100-ish points.
Personally, I would:
- Leave the Predator as is, it’s in a good place
- Let the Vindicator Fire twice if it moved half distance and ignore penalties for moving and shooting the Demolisher Cannon
- Straight up double the Whirlwind’s number of shots for both Missile types
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Why is the LR Demolisher bad? From what I have read they should be good AT-platform. But I have not have the opportunity to try them out untill today, as I will have my first game with two of them in my 2k list later.
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Compared to manticores and battle cannon russ I agree - the demolisher is quite bad for a meta choice. If 10 man terminator squads were actually a thing though - the demolisher would better at killing them.
I like your suggestion though - 2d6 shots with 2 damage a peice all the time would be a nice place for it. Also I see no reason why the vindi and the demolisher should have different rates of fire with the exact same weapon.
This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
In those editions it was terrifying. Str10 was enough to cause Instant Death on anything that wasn’t a Monstrous Creature and wound any non-vehicle in the game on a 2+, 2D6/pick highest Armour Penetration gave an excellent chance of penetrating any vehicle armour and then had a chance to Explode/Annihilate the vehicle, AP2 straight up ignored any and all armour, and the Large Blast was enough to score a hit on a whole Terminator Squad with decent-ish odds or blow a smoking crater in an infantry blob.
It lost all of that. It now wounds anything bigger than a bike on 3s rather than 2s, most things that aren’t light infantry or very light vehicles still get a save, it’s damage once it gets through is completely random from ‘Instant Death on their Warlord’ to ‘failed to kill a Primaris Marine outright’, it now averages 2 shots hitting most of the time on 4s instead of 3s, which goes up to an average of 3.5 shots against infantry blobs, doesn’t have the ability to hit multiple units... and all it got in return was the ability to maybe get a second or third shot against larger models, with which it ja extremely unlikely to blow them up in one go anyway.
I love Vindicators, I own 3 of the things, but they’ve come crashing down from previous editions.
I really wanted one when it came out in 3rd ed, after waiting a long time I ended up getting the land raider instead when it first went on the shelves.
So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.
Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.
Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.
Formosa wrote: So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.
Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.
Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.
T8 is just so great - all those piddly guns that don't mind rolling 5s on my predators are nearly futile on this thing. Have you been able to make use of Linebreaker at all?
King Amroth wrote: Vindicators are crap, laser vindicators are amazing. Take the good one.
You can get three vindicators for every two of those. And for less money. There's certainly advantages to that gun - 8 shots when standing still to the 6 average. But then it's only ever good against vehicles and needs a babysitter if it overcharges. 3D6 shots or Linebreaker adds value.
King Amroth wrote: Vindicators are crap, laser vindicators are amazing. Take the good one.
You can get three vindicators for every two of those. And for less money. There's certainly advantages to that gun - 8 shots when standing still to the 6 average. But then it's only ever good against vehicles and needs a babysitter if it overcharges. 3D6 shots or Linebreaker adds value.
If the laser vindicator wants to use the over charged mode then it cant fire twice. Technically I think the laser destroyer can be used for the line breaker stratagem since it has the vindicator keyword. (Dont have the codex with me so might be wrong though) The normal vindicator isnt great or good but it can be fun and mediocre
Formosa wrote: So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.
Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.
Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.
T8 is just so great - all those piddly guns that don't mind rolling 5s on my predators are nearly futile on this thing. Have you been able to make use of Linebreaker at all?
Those CP are better used elsewhere in my dark angels, but when I get the chance I will drop it on someone
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Why is the LR Demolisher bad? From what I have read they should be good AT-platform. But I have not have the opportunity to try them out untill today, as I will have my first game with two of them in my 2k list later.
They're not. Chose Manticore, Battle Tank, or Basilisk for your AT, they're far more reliable and cheaper. It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because it's more consistent and reliable, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical median performance with decreased reliability and versatility.
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Compared to manticores and battle cannon russ I agree - the demolisher is quite bad for a meta choice. If 10 man terminator squads were actually a thing though - the demolisher would better at killing them.
I like your suggestion though - 2d6 shots with 2 damage a peice all the time would be a nice place for it. Also I see no reason why the vindi and the demolisher should have different rates of fire with the exact same weapon.
Even the Battle Cannon variant isn't that great, but it's a head above the Demolisher. Compared to the Demolisher, it has almost the same damage output [reduced against Land Raiders and other Leman Russes], but because it gets more shots, it's far more reliable and versatile. In addition, it's 18 points less, the cost of a hull lascannon, so for the same cost you've also still managed to keep half the Demolisher's performance. It also has real range, instead of piss-for-range, so it won't have to be moving around and can fire it's lascannon at full BS, whereas a LR Demolisher will be moving in most circumstances. Even against heavy infantry, a Battle Cannon still doubles-out Terminators for a 2+ and, because it has more shots with less concentrated damage, can kill more more reliably.
And the Battle Cannon tank is still rather underwhelming, and only really performs is casual environments. Basilisks and Manticores render it entirely obsolete in IG lists; and otherwise it's marginally worse than the Predator [which also isn't an example of an outstanding vehicle].
One thing worth mention is the fact that the Leman Russes got the "shoot twice" functionality added to their Grinding Advance because of how bad they and all their guns were, as quick patch to allow them to try to be a casual alternate to a Manticore or Basilisk and "fix the problem" without having to make widespread changes to already printed material and material yet to come [IE: the Space Marines]. So while GW did recognize that the weapons for the Russ-tanks are absolute trash, they only made a half-assed attempt to fix it for the Guard, essentially deciding that the Space Marines are about infantry, not armor, and therefore their tanks can be bad and it'll be fine.
It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because of mathematics, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical performance.
It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because of mathematics, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical performance.
Okay, that's exactly what I meant, and you understood that just fine. I'll change it though. I can even make pretty graphs if you want.
Also, it's more versatile, since you can shoot heavy and medium infantry with it.
Sorry, wasn't trying to sounds crummy there.
A vindicator is equally good on infantry since it should get D6 mostly, but range and all those shenanigans play a role. A demolisher in an IG list? Lots of better stuff. In marines lists? Decent unless you're going soup anyway.
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
I don't think hull points should ever have been a thing.
And the problem with vehicles being "different" to normal things is all the sci-fi stuff that straddles the line. Just look at things that should be vehicles that were monsters (wraithknight, wraithlord, etc.)
There's not really any reason why a Tyrannofex should be dramatically more agile or nimble than a Leman Russ, while also being dramatically more durable, assuming equivalent tonnage.
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
I don't think hull points should ever have been a thing.
I dsidn't mind it but the problem was too few hull points and too easy to get em. if vehicles had had twice as many hull points and you needed a penatrating shot to get them, it would have turned hull points into a way to ensure you'd eventually kill tanks, not a way to kill rhinos with heavy bolters
Elbows wrote: We're now officially at four pages...and nothing has changed.
The Vindicator is still cool enough to run for 125 points if you like the model. It's not going to ruin your army. Ignore the rest of this thread.
A lot of this discussion really helps people figure out where a unit should be point wise. For example - at 100 points I think a lot of people would be sold on a vindicator - especially if it could gain the benefit of it's armies trait. GW is obviously trying to make the vindi work - they have dropped it's points twice now. It was 145 in the index I think. At 125 it's not going to lose you the game for including one but you really aren't trying to win if you take it. Different people just need different maters of convincing. Casuals, semi casuals, competitive, and GW(not sure how you convince them.)
I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
kombatwombat wrote: I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
Elbows wrote: I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.
^^ This.
I have used a Vindi. Against the right armies it does quite well. It’s never bad either.
Which is exactly what I’m saying. Let it shoot its Demolisher Cannon twice if it moved up to half speed, and ignore the -1 to hit for moving and shooting the Cannon. Then increase its points a bit - say to 160-170 or so - and hey presto, one tank working as designed.
I’d also double the shot count of both Whirlwind Missile Launcher types and double the cost of those weapons. Suddenly they’re useful again.
kombatwombat wrote: I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
Then let it shot twice lol.
It also needs to be distinct from the Predator. It's second problem is that's it's kind of a third a Predator, but swingy and two-thirds the price.
The Leman Russ Eradicator has no purpose because it's functionally identical to a Leman Russ Battle Tank, but with S6 with Ignores Cover instead of S8, and only 2 points less. There's no reason to ever have one.
A lot of the problem with the Vindicator comes from the anemic translation of the Demolisher Cannon into 8th edition compared to other weapons, imo. The weapon system (demolisher cannon) is not very good. The Leman Russ Demolisher is solidly not great, the best variants of the Baneblade (i.e. the Shadowsword) avoids paying the 40-point demolisher cannon tax which automatically makes it cheaper without meaningfully harming its firepower...
I personally think the gun is fine, but it's role has changed tremendously (a bit like the Leman Russ' battle cannon). If it had a different name and was on something else, people would be fine with the gun itself. I don't think the statline does a good job of representing how the gun itself should function though.
Elbows wrote: I personally think the gun is fine, but it's role has changed tremendously (a bit like the Leman Russ' battle cannon). If it had a different name and was on something else, people would be fine with the gun itself. I don't think the statline does a good job of representing how the gun itself should function though.
I don't think it has a role, that's the problem.
40 points for an IG demolisher cannon is essentially the same as 2 lascannons. And whaddya know, it averages out to be the same as two lascannons, except:
1) It gets more shots against big units (maybe. It's unreliable, but all you need is a 3+ on a d6 for this to be true).
2) It wounds T9 on 3+ (so maybe 4 units in the game) and T5 on a 2+
3) It is incredibly unreliable compared to 2 lascannons (the probability curve is way different simply because of the d3 shots)
4) It is incredibly short-ranged.
There's a reason the Leman Russ Annihilator (with a twin lascannon turret) is considered to be a far, far better vehicle than the Leman Russ Demolisher (with the Demolisher cannon turret), despite everything except the main armament being equal.
So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
For about 100 points I might consider it. The ratio of points to potential damage is too small. You pay a lot of those points just for the admittedly sturdy chassis. But that chassis is not earning its points back with its WS6+ attacks alone. Which is normal for most tanks. And the gun can't do it either.
Leman russ demolishers can be vostroian do make the demolisher useful in terms of range.
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
40 points for two BS4 lascannons.
If we carry that logic the SM Demolisher should be 50 points, which makes the chassis 75 points. Or a practically Rhino, but T8.
Suboptimal mathematically does not always translate to the table.
Psychological factors play a big role. My opponents always seem to want to remove the Vindicator. Most people aren't taking power fists or other tank punching CC weapons so when I charge them they plink off the tank and i'm more than willing to charge multiple units with it.
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
40 points for two BS4 lascannons.
If we carry that logic the SM Demolisher should be 50 points, which makes the chassis 75 points. Or a practically Rhino, but T8.
Suboptimal mathematically does not always translate to the table.
Psychological factors play a big role. My opponents always seem to want to remove the Vindicator. Most people aren't taking power fists or other tank punching CC weapons so when I charge them they plink off the tank and i'm more than willing to charge multiple units with it.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
Opponent's psychology is a fickle thing - but good opponents will ignore it, because literally the only thing it does well is be tough, so shooting at it or trying to kill it is playing to its strengths. They simply won't. And when it charges them, they'll just screen it with bodies, like they would with a real assault unit, except that the vindicator is never going to kill the screen so it is even more "dealt with" than a real assault unit at the same price point would be.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
I think that's a false dichotomy.
The vindicator has a good elite killing gun. I brought it to put big holes in things - not to be an assault unit. I *will* assault with it when an opportunity is open, because I naturally wind up being close and I can shutdown shooting at no real cost to me. If they run away then I get to shoot again. If they stay in then I still tie up models. If they block two units of IG with lascannons that's 120 points (or 140 if they go to 5 points), which is the cost of the vindicator plus any damage I did on the way in and two LC out of commission. If they have to blow an order or two on shooting after fall back that's fine, too.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
I think that's a false dichotomy.
The vindicator has a good elite killing gun. I brought it to put big holes in things - not to be an assault unit. I *will* assault with it when an opportunity is open, because I naturally wind up being close and I can shutdown shooting at no real cost to me. If they run away then I get to shoot again. If they stay in then I still tie up models. If they block two units of IG with lascannons that's 120 points (or 140 if they go to 5 points), which is the cost of the vindicator plus any damage I did on the way in and two LC out of commission. If they have to blow an order or two on shooting after fall back that's fine, too.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but cause significantly more casualties (eventually even fighting their way out of combat) and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If you charged 2 of my guard squads, I'd leave 1 in to lock you up, fall one back and shoot (with one order) at something important, and I'd happily leave that 60 point lascannon squad in combat with your vindicator all game, if it keeps that 125 point demolisher cannon away from my Baneblades. If you fall back, then you'll get blatted in the face by selfsame lascannon, if I could be bothered, though honestly there's probably more threatening things on the board than a Vindicator that is willing to charge me.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
Right. It's a nothing-ist. T8 is only valuable if the enemy shoots at you, so it's fully dependent on the skill and actions of your opponent, and therefore is a stat you could very real see zero benefit out of. If you want to just "cause problems where the opportunity arises" the Chaos Spawn unit is actually pretty terrifying in 8th as a distraction carnifex type unit.
The vindicator isn't atrocious, but it doesn't have a role to play that isn't eclipsed by another unit.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
Right. It's a nothing-ist. T8 is only valuable if the enemy shoots at you, so it's fully dependent on the skill and actions of your opponent, and therefore is a stat you could very real see zero benefit out of. If you want to just "cause problems where the opportunity arises" the Chaos Spawn unit is actually pretty terrifying in 8th as a distraction carnifex type unit.
The vindicator isn't atrocious, but it doesn't have a role to play that isn't eclipsed by another unit.
The spawn in no way eclipses the vindicator at what it's good at - they're a different unit with a different purpose. 3.8 spawn per vindicator is 15 T5 wounds with a 5+...and absolutely no gun. Coincidentally spawn are probably the best thing for a vindicator to shoot. What is even the point of these absurd statements? If I take an army of all vindicators is the enemy not going to shoot at me at all? I mean it's so crappy people just never shoot it!
I've recently started using the Vindicator, and I'm relatively happy with it. Sure it's not going to blow up entire units on its' own (no matter how much I wish it to be so) but it can put some hurt down on elite units with its' high strength shots, and firing on the move with it isn't terrible due to the new heavy weapon rules.
Just pray you roll more than 1 shot (which is what I usually roll)
The fact that it's Heavy D3 sucks, because random shots and -1 leads to a few turns per game where it totally whiffs in the shooting phase...
However, if you use its T8 body to screen your advancing characters (as I've been doing the past few games) it actually has a purpose in your army other than advancing forward, shooting a few times, and getting blown up.
As with most units in the game, it's all in how you use it.
I think without that bombardment stratagem, Vindicators are truly trash.
If firing at anything T6+ Sv3+ if it moves itself into position (which mote than likely it needs to, as it's only 24", as well as not ignoring LoS), the chance of a Vindicator putting 2W or more on the target is LESS THAN 45%!!!! (WTH!!!!) If that monster have any decent inv saves, the result would just been even more ugly.
How about firing at hordes? The answer is it won't be better. That big cannon have only around 50% chances to kill 2 or more Guardsmen / Guants / Eldar foot soliders!!! Firing at genestealer hordes or Tzaangors (both have 5++)? Well your opponent is more than likely just lol as he only take away ONE model!!! (WTH!!!!)
If use the stratagem, you are looking atore than 55% chances to inflict at least 6 mortal wounds. Which is better than 3 Vindicators firing together at both of the above scenarios!!!! And also, RAW it doesn't matter if you advanced, pop smoke (which will increase your survivability) or even if you just retreated from enemy assault units. The only thing enemy can stop this is kill one of that T8 Sv3+ 11W model. I admit it is not very hard to achieve, but it doesn't looks "that kind of easy".
So I think if you take Vindicator, it ought to be 3, and better, taken them as Ultramarines, for the chance to regenerate CP, oh yes, Sergeant Chronus as well, he repair 1W of his tank every turn so he can sustain a little longer so as to allow your Techmarine (I assume you take it because, so many tanks) to repair other two tanks.
Crimson wrote: If it had a rule that allowed it to move and shoot without penalty, it would instantly be much better.
This and give the cannon D6 shots all the time. problem solved.
Alternatively give it a rule similar to LRBT. Move less than half movement and can fire twice, ignoring hit penalties.
The problem is that rule doesn't actually help the LR Demolisher, so it wouldn't help the vindicator. It's not like there's a version of the Demolisher Cannon with that rule and it still sucks...
It doesn't help the LR Demolisher because the other LR variants are better. Space Marines don't have that sort of variety and rely on the Vindicator for Demolisher Cannon access.
Linebreaker is not affected by minuses to hit, LOS, or crucially, being in CC. So shoving them in your opponent's face means they don't have the usual downside either, in that they can 'fire' whilst in CC.
3d3 Mortal wounds is a fair whack, so I think in a low-drop army, where you have a good chance of going first, this might be fairly decent...
Linebreaker is not affected by minuses to hit, LOS, or crucially, being in CC. So shoving them in your opponent's face means they don't have the usual downside either, in that they can 'fire' whilst in CC.
3d3 Mortal wounds is a fair whack, so I think in a low-drop army, where you have a good chance of going first, this might be fairly decent...
In most situations, you might prefer the D6, but when facing things with ridiculously high Invulns like Guilliman, Mortal Wounds are basically your only option.
Linebreaker is not affected by minuses to hit, LOS, or crucially, being in CC. So shoving them in your opponent's face means they don't have the usual downside either, in that they can 'fire' whilst in CC.
3d3 Mortal wounds is a fair whack, so I think in a low-drop army, where you have a good chance of going first, this might be fairly decent...
In most situations, you might prefer the D6, but when facing things with ridiculously high Invulns like Guilliman, Mortal Wounds are basically your only option.
Or a cluster of mortars teams. It would be oh so much fun to use on spammy IG.
I think I'll proxy 3 Vindis in my next game to see how they work out. 375 isn't much more than a Repulsor, so I should be able to make space in my lists for them!
grouchoben wrote: I think I'll proxy 3 Vindis in my next game to see how they work out. 375 isn't much more than a Repulsor, so I should be able to make space in my lists for them!
More converts for the Vindicator throne! Report back when you get a chance!
vaklor4 wrote: In most situations, you might prefer the D6, but when facing things with ridiculously high Invulns like Guilliman, Mortal Wounds are basically your only option.
Exactly - Marines are a bit short on dealing with high-invuln targets, unless they can get a Libby casting on an 8 within 6" of the target - that's a very restrictive condition, compared to say death hex or jinx. We need a mortal wound engine, and Linebreaker's 3D3 certainly looks the part. I'm thinking of running them with some other tasty big targets, which might buy those targets a round in which to do something. They also come in at a good price to fill out that rare beast, the SM Brigade...
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