Very surprised to see the lack of discussion about the new Tau dex. It's out, people are playing with it, but dakka seems quite silent. Heck, I even see a lack of threats even griping about how good or bad they are. Any explanations for this seeming whisper of a codex release?

 buddha wrote:
Very surprised to see the lack of discussion about the new Tau dex. It's out, people are playing with it, but dakka seems quite silent. Heck, I even see a lack of threats even griping about how good or bad they are. Any explanations for this seeming whisper of a codex release?

People are having a hard time finding big problems with it, I guess? Maybe the base is a little more sane now that Gamgee is banned? Your guess is as good as mine!

There's a vocal contingent of the Tau community who think we got Grey Knighted with our dex. Not as many of those people on Dakka thankfully, but go check Facebook or Reddit and you can't miss them.

The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

 Jaxler wrote:
it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

You should stop that

there is almost noting as good as guard or dark reapers.



how do you feel about the dex if we avoid the big problem children like morty horntits girlyman dark reapers and the guard dex?

 meleti wrote:
There's a vocal contingent of the Tau community who think we got Grey Knighted with our dex. Not as many of those people on Dakka thankfully, but go check Facebook or Reddit and you can't miss them.

Yea it's weird, because locally most people are freaking out how powerful they are.

Eh, most negativity I've seen is that players are salty that Tau didn't get buffed back to 7th edition Riptide Wing levels... No, we're not god-tier, but I seriously do not see what people are all whining about. The only thing that really grinds my gears is that the Hammerhead rail cannon didn't get a buff. I really expected that to get the "Grinding Advance" treatment but alas. I'm quite happy with the rest though (yes, even Crisis suits and restricted Commanders).

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

You should stop that

there is almost noting as good as guard or dark reapers.



how do you feel about the dex if we avoid the big problem children like morty horntits girlyman dark reapers and the guard dex?

It feels like they only fixed 1/2 the units that needed it.

Pandabeer wrote:
Eh, most negativity I've seen is that players are salty that Tau didn't get buffed back to 7th edition Riptide Wing levels... No, we're not god-tier, but I seriously do not see what people are all whining about. The only thing that really grinds my gears is that the Hammerhead rail cannon didn't get a buff. I really expected that to get the "Grinding Advance" treatment but alas. I'm quite happy with the rest though (yes, even Crisis suits and restricted Commanders).

The Ion Cannon did get a buff. Ion Cannon is quite nice now.

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

5ppm Kroot are a point too much? Whaaaaat? Stealth Suits need a price drop... whaaaaat?

The only units in the Codex that are "bad" are Crisis suits and only in the context of spamming them as the core of an army. Has a small surgical unit they can do work (But yeah at the same time with that you better just use commanders). Skyrays are not great either and Hammerheads are in the slighly below average scale with Rail Cannon (But Ion Cannon Hammerheads are actually usable and OK). And Piranhas compete with Devilfish being much worse for not that big of a difference in price, they need to be made cheaper.
I don't know about stormsurge, or the Krootox but nearly everything else has its uses and it can do work.

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

The Stealth Suit is a fantastic board control & presence unit.

 Galas wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

5ppm Kroot are a point too much? Whaaaaat? Stealth Suits need a price drop... whaaaaat?

The only units in the Codex that are "bad" are Crisis suits and only in the context of spamming them as the core of an army. Has a small surgical unit they can do work (But yeah at the same time with that you better just use commanders). Skyrays are not great either and Hammerheads are in the slighly below average scale with Rail Cannon (But Ion Cannon Hammerheads are actually usable and OK). And Piranhas compete with Devilfish being much worse for not that big of a difference in price, they need to be made cheaper.
I don't know about stormsurge, or the Krootox but nearly everything else has its uses and it can do work.

Stormsurge feels a bit... schizophrenic to me. A TON of S5 shots and then the big S10+ multi-damage cannon. I'd rather have seen you could specialize it further (like for example to replace the big cannon with a giant burst cannon or replace the Cluster Rocket System with multi-shot long-range Fusion Blasters).

Overall, a really good dex. A bit like tyrannids, not too OP, but almost everything seems viable. The only things I can't see people taking are railgun hammerheads, (which is a shame given how iconic they are, but there is the ion cannon), skyrays, as whilst they're better, they still can't compete with other heavy support options, piranhas seem a little too expensive for what you're getting, and crisis suits are still also a little too expensive.
In addition to most things being viable, strike teams and kroot seem really good now, and cheap infantry, especially screening infantry, is the way to go in 8th, so no issues there (also I'd say kroot are probably better than the IS, if it weren't for orders and access to regimental doctrines). Some useless strategems, but some great ones. Kind of sad they didn't reverse the markerlights to the 7th system, but not really an issue. A few quite nasty signature systems, puretide chip seems like an auto include, although some are pretty worthless, but you'd only take one anyway.
Sa'cea is dead, long live Bor'kan. In all seriousness only sa'cea is bad, day'lyth and farsight are a bit meh, but bor'kan, ta'u and vior'la all seem quite good, most of the warlord traits are decent or good.
All in all a good dex.

What happened to gamgee, was he actually banned?

The stormsurge is ina wierd place as non of the battlesuit strats work on it as its not a battlesuits. I think the railguns issue is its paying too much for its sub munition profile. Like 13 points for a profile options I can't say I'd think yeah thats what I want to shoot.

P.S. i take back what I said about vespid not being viable I read Ld 5 and was like nope. But strain leader is 8 so actually much better.

Ice_can wrote:
The stormsurge is ina wierd place as non of the battlesuit strats work on it as its not a battlesuits.

I think it is good enough on its own to justify taking it, and the only battlesuit stratagems that would really be worth using is the one that allows it to use the top statline, which would probably be a bit unfair, and the regain d3 wounds, which isn't so huge on a W20 model.

The Railgun hammerhead makes me a sad panda, thats an iconic unit that needed a major fix and didnt get it, and its been neglected for far too long over too many editions :(

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Railgun hammerhead makes me a sad panda, thats an iconic unit that needed a major fix and didnt get it, and its been neglected for far too long over too many editions :(

It was such an easy fix too - just give it 2d6 damage.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
In all seriousness only sa'cea is bad,

I think Sa'cea is actually pretty great. Sa'cea Firesight Marksmen are super cheap Characters with 3+ rerollable Markerlights, it's probably the best way to get Markerlights in the entire codex.

Unrelated note: 4ppm Kroot would rule the world, so it's a good thing they're not that cheap. lol

Im not so sure the rail hammerhead is THAT bad. It has the 2 shooting options for different targets, has good ap, and the chance for decent mortal wounds.

Maybe im missing something. Whats the actual issue with the rail gun?

 Lance845 wrote:
Im not so sure the rail hammerhead is THAT bad. It has the 2 shooting options for different targets, has good ap, and the chance for decent mortal wounds.

Maybe im missing something. Whats the actual issue with the rail gun?

It's bad. Catastrophically bad. It's only 55% as efficient as an Ionhead against T7 targets, and unless you have the Burst Cannons firing on the same tank as your Railgun (hah), it's literally twice the PPW as a Railside. And you might say to yourself, hey, I bet it's much better against T8 targets! But it's not, it's still worse than either an Ionhead or Railside. gak, even a HYMP Broadside without an ATS is a better shooter against T8 vehicles, and that's just sad.

I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

It is an extensive single shot weapon, its problems are similar to that of the anti-tank russ.

Compare the Railhead to the Fire Prism, which is basically the same tank except it can shoot its gun twice. Also Fire Prisms are not even good.

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

The Railhead has much the same issue the Vanquisher does, mildly mitigated by a secondary fire mode, but ultimately its got a one shot gun that just isn't actually very effective at its role given the low rate of fire coupled with the overall cost of the platform.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Railhead has much the same issue the Vanquisher does, mildly mitigated by a secondary fire mode, but ultimately its got a one shot gun that just isn't actually very effective at its role given the low rate of fire coupled with the overall cost of the platform.

The secondary fire mode is just smoke and mirrors, it's not actually going to outperform the cheaper Ion Cannon very often, against any common target profile.

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

 meleti wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
In all seriousness only sa'cea is bad,

I think Sa'cea is actually pretty great. Sa'cea Firesight Marksmen are super cheap Characters with 3+ rerollable Markerlights, it's probably the best way to get Markerlights in the entire codex.

Add one to leadership is flat out useless, especially given bonding knives and ethereals.
Yes, for models with a single markerlight, it gives the reroll, although on a cadre fireblade, it's likely you'll hit anyway and there's a variety of ways of rerolling ones. The other useful thing would be for seeker missiles and railheads, but one reroll on many of the units just isn't as significant as say, 5+ overwatch or an extra 6" range to rapid fire and heavy.
The stratagem is alright, but it's 2cp and only the one markerlight, and you should be bringing a ton anyway through fireblades and pathfinders and potentially just marksmen, although they're taking up elite slots. The uplinked markerlight is probably better.
Warlord trait is garbage.

 Lance845 wrote:
Im not so sure the rail hammerhead is THAT bad. It has the 2 shooting options for different targets, has good ap, and the chance for decent mortal wounds.

Maybe im missing something. Whats the actual issue with the rail gun?

The problem is that it can only ever do D6 damage on any one turn, and most of its "prime" targets have 12+ wounds. And half the time it won't even wound at all. So, on average it won't even kill a single tank over 6 turns. I had a game where it only did 2 damage over 6 turns.

The submunitions shot is ok as an option, but no one takes the railgun for that. It'll only score a couple S6 hits. I can easily do that with a 2 plasma rifle suit and get more AP for fewer points. Or just take strike teams instead.

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

FYI, it's not clear that this is allowed -- the stim injector does not actually appear as an option "in the index version of its datasheet". The question here is whether index datasheets that refer to lists still refer to the index versions of those lists.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

FYI, it's not clear that this is allowed -- the stim injector does not actually appear as an option "in the index version of its datasheet". The question here is whether index datasheets that refer to lists still refer to the index versions of those lists.

Ok, I'm confused. You said that Stim Injector isn't in it's datasheet for the Index. It states it can select 3 Support Systems just like everything else for Tau. Stim Injector is in the Index Support systems, but it is not in the Codex. We have all read the FAQ that states you can use it that way. Are you saying we need a FAQ to the FAQ? (If you are saying that they meant a weapon or gear piece listed in the datasheet's weapon profile then that is different, but still wouldn't apply as the do not always put every weapon profile in every datasheet).

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ok, I'm confused. You said that Stim Injector isn't in it's datasheet for the Index. It states it can select 3 Support Systems just like everything else for Tau. Stim Injector is in the Index Support systems, but it is not in the Codex. We have all read the FAQ that states you can use it that way. Are you saying we need a FAQ to the FAQ? (If you are saying that they meant a weapon or gear piece listed in the datasheet's weapon profile then that is different, but still wouldn't apply as the do not always put every weapon profile in every datasheet).

Yes, pretty much; the FAQ needs a FAQ. The current FAQ talks about stuff that's on the datasheet. The Stormsurge's index datasheet merely refers you to a list -- the same list that the codex datasheet refers to. So the question is whether that list is superseded by the list in the codex. This wasn't an issue for, e.g., the Autarch, since the codex doesn't have the list referred to in the index. I'm not sure that we've had this situation come up before.

Again, the problem is that the FAQ only clearly tells you that you can use wargear options that appear on the datasheet. Stim Injector doesn't actually appear on the datasheet. The option you get on the datasheet is just the ability to choose from a list, which is not itself on the datasheet and which was updated in the codex.

Yes, pretty much; the FAQ needs a FAQ. The current FAQ talks about stuff that's on the datasheet. The Stormsurge's index datasheet merely refers you to a list -- the same list that the codex datasheet refers to. So the question is whether that list is superseded by the list in the codex. This wasn't an issue for, e.g., the Autarch, since the codex doesn't have the list referred to in the index. I'm not sure that we've had this situation come up before.

Again, the problem is that the FAQ only clearly tells you that you can use wargear options that appear on the datasheet. Stim Injector doesn't actually appear on the datasheet. The option you get on the datasheet is just the ability to choose from a list, which is not itself on the datasheet and which was updated in the codex.

I can see what you are saying, but that is looking too hard for something. It refers to a list simply because there are too many options to fit on the datasheet. There are several datasheets that do not show stats for a weapon, but it is in the list of weapons available. I do not power game because we only play casual....no one seems to have an issue with how the Stormsurge gear plays out in relation to the Index/Codex compared to everything else.

* Of course now that I've said that, GW will FAQ their FAQ and say "No"

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

Pottsey wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

If you're going to play around with RAW on the Coldstar, just take six weapons because the wording indicates you can exchange each missile pod or HOBC for two items. Half-assed rules lawyering, smh.

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

The stratageum to use the top stat teir is ironically called stimulant injector. And can only be used on battlesuit units.
I know we can use the workaround to get all the old support systems from the index untill GW gives tau the destinction of being the first army to loose that optipn aswell

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend.

It went up against an Ork Stompa.

offcourse it did wel VS the stompa. It's just a 1K points practice target atm

I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

I don't think the buff drones will see a lot of use past the first couple of turns. I think it might depend on the terrain layout, but they're not characters and only have T4/1W/4+ to protect them, so pretty much any nlos attack will negate the one other possible defence the drone would have (hiding out of los). And while it might be a waste of fire power, not much more would be accomplished by shooting the majority of the T3/4+ infantry with what's most likely a d3/d6 shot weapon imo.

 Mecha_buddha wrote:

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

Yeah I think we're all pretty confused why Hammerheads didn't get the Leman/Fire Prism treatment.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Very surprised to see the lack of discussion about the new Tau dex. It's out, people are playing with it, but dakka seems quite silent. Heck, I even see a lack of threats even griping about how good or bad they are. Any explanations for this seeming whisper of a codex release?

People are having a hard time finding big problems with it, I guess? Maybe the base is a little more sane now that Gamgee is banned? Your guess is as good as mine!

Gamgee got banned? I was wondering why he was so quiet, I've not seen a single conspiracy post suggesting GW is out to squat anyone whose not Imperium or Chaos in some time

I think a big reason for the silence is that you like some of the other codexes, not much really changed.

Pretty much everything is still sitting at roughly a "meh" level outside of a few big changes like the commander limitation and gun drone nerf.

Nothing became terrifying, and most of the stuff that was unusable now is less bad but not amazing... Basically there's not a lot to get excited about, and all the complaints have already been made.

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I think a big reason for the silence is that you like some of the other codexes, not much really changed.

Pretty much everything is still sitting at roughly a "meh" level outside of a few big changes like the commander limitation and gun drone nerf.

Nothing became terrifying, and most of the stuff that was unusable now is less bad but not amazing... Basically there's not a lot to get excited about, and all the complaints have already been made.

There is never enough complaining. This is the internet.

 meleti wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

If you're going to play around with RAW on the Coldstar, just take six weapons because the wording indicates you can exchange each missile pod or HOBC for two items. Half-assed rules lawyering, smh.

No kidding. a 40" moving Coldstar with 6 Fusion Guns hitting on 2's (lots of ways to ignore the advance penalty) for 216 pts is enough to scare any tank or monster

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

ah yes the combat step, where your opponent pays you back for all your fun shooting. Where 3 orks can wipe a squad of firewarriors. Or at least that is how it used to work.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

That's always been their underlying design theme, alongside mobility in fishes to grab objectives. To give them notable melee punch stops them being the same army by design.

Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

grouchoben wrote:
Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

I'm in the same boat as you man, I bought the get-started box and some stealth suits as I love the models.
The only thing thats bugging me is that I think the Crisis Suits are rather expensive, but without having played a game yet I can't really say how they perform.

grouchoben wrote:
I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

Because ATT has a policy, implicitly or explicitly, of positive opinions only and "excessive" negativity is not welcome. Dakka/reddit/etc, on the other hand, are mixed forums that aren't dominated by the most optimistic fanboys of a single faction. As a result you tend to get more honest opinions about a particular faction.

FunJohn wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

I'm in the same boat as you man, I bought the get-started box and some stealth suits as I love the models.
The only thing thats bugging me is that I think the Crisis Suits are rather expensive, but without having played a game yet I can't really say how they perform.

Most of the whine comes from people who want Tau to be Guard (or God)-tier, are angry that they can't spam Commanders anymore (I actually think it's a fairly good solution and most likely things like Daemon Princes, Grandmasters in Dreadknights and Hive Tyrants are the next to receive this treatment) and that Crisis suits are too expensive to be spammed. None of which are valid complaints IMO, but to each his own.

Crisis suits are overcosted when viewed in a vacuum, yes. Support and play them properly (drones, markerlights, FSE stratagem, drop Farsight with them and use the reroll-wounds-but-commander-can't-shoot stratagem on them, etc.) and they can potentially be devastating however. Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots. They are now a surgical strike unit designed to take out your opponents' special snowflakes with overwhelming firepower from deepstrike. However, they are not a general purpose spammable unit anymore and probably work best with FSE tenets because of the stratagem and the fact you lose almost nothing by popping the Commander-can't-shoot stratagem on Farsight. That's the whole thing with Tau though, you are supposed to play them in such a way that their whole is more than the sum of their parts in order to do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

Because ATT has a policy, implicitly or explicitly, of positive opinions only and "excessive" negativity is not welcome. Dakka/reddit/etc, on the other hand, are mixed forums that aren't dominated by the most optimistic fanboys of a single faction. As a result you tend to get more honest opinions about a particular faction.

And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Pandabeer wrote:
Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots.

And that's the problem. You're talking about a full squad of pathfinders and burning a bunch of CP for the stratagems just to get them up to a decent, not god-tier, level. That's a pretty big investment to make, especially when it's a one-shot weapon now that JSJ no longer exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Yeah, that horrible entitlement, how dare we feel entitled to an army that is more than an ork-style gunline that castles in the corner and rolls buckets of dice until someone wins. How dare we be annoyed at GW for progressively removing more and more of what the Tau used to be in favor of more gunlines. We should just accept that we are the most boring one-dimensional gunline army ever, and be thankful that we're maybe at least second tier in competitive games.

 Peregrine wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots.

And that's the problem. You're talking about a full squad of pathfinders and burning a bunch of CP for the stratagems just to get them up to a decent, not god-tier, level. That's a pretty big investment to make, especially when it's a one-shot weapon now that JSJ no longer exists.

You'd take those Pathfinders for Markerlight support anyway, Crisis suits or not, so that's kind of a moot point. But yes, it's expensive, but also potentially very powerful if you play it right. I still do not feel Crisis Suits are too expensive however. It's also kind of hard to balance them between being too expensive or very spammable. Maybe their weapon costs could go down a bit to account for their base BS4+, I don't know.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Yeah, that horrible entitlement, how dare we feel entitled to an army that is more than an ork-style gunline that castles in the corner and rolls buckets of dice until someone wins. How dare we be annoyed at GW for progressively removing more and more of what the Tau used to be in favor of more gunlines. We should just accept that we are the most boring one-dimensional gunline army ever, and be thankful that we're maybe at least second tier in competitive games.

It is more than "just a gunline". Maybe that's the case for ultra-competitive, but most factions suffer from mono-build syndrome if they want to win a GT (Eldar Dark Reapers, Girlyman, Commander spam during index Tau, etc.). For more casual play I'm seeing a lot of options, from infantry gunlines to more mobile suit-focused. The only really big gripe I have with the codex at the moment is that Rail Cannon Hammerheads seem to be utter trash (even if Ion Cannon Hammerheads seem to be quite nice at first glance).

3 crisis suits is 300 ish points farsight id 150 thats 450 points plus 5 markerlights is another 100 is points. Drones are going to ve another 50 so thats 600 points for 3 suits 4 drones farsight and pathfinders, With no markerlight redundancy. Realistically to clear screens etc your not going to be dropping untill turn 2 ao you need to have enough markerlights to be avle to get 5 hits on turn 2 drones only hit on 5's so thats 180points but with interupt shooting you need spares so another 5 for attrition 60 points. I dont have my codex to hand so points might be a little off.
300 for 3 suits 150 for farsight and 240 for drones your nearly 700 points for a turn 2 alpha strike. You can get almost the same firepower from 2 quad fusion coldstar commanders at 350 points.

Pandabeer wrote:
You'd take those Pathfinders for Markerlight support anyway, Crisis suits or not, so that's kind of a moot point.

It really isn't. Opportunity cost is a thing, you don't take units for generic "markerlight support" and just assume that they're free. If you want 100 points worth of markerlight hits you add 100 points to the cost of the unit you're supporting.

It's also kind of hard to balance them between being too expensive or very spammable.

No more so than any other unit.

It is more than "just a gunline".

It really isn't. JSJ? Gone. Tanks that can move and shoot? Gone. Just line up your gunline and roll dice.

 Peregrine wrote:

It really isn't. JSJ? Gone. Tanks that can move and shoot? Gone. Just line up your gunline and roll dice.

I mean you can move your tanks with a small penalty...not that you really moved them much before anyway? And dancing around while shooting counts as NOT a gunline?

There is nothing to Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, and Wall of Mirrors?
Or to an unrestricted deepstrike with a Recon Drone?
Or Dal'y'th doing their version of JSJ?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean you can move your tanks with a small penalty...not that you really moved them much before anyway?

The "small" penalty of losing 25% of their firepower? No thanks. And I moved my tanks all the time back in 5th edition. Being able to move 12" to get a good shot was a really strong ability.

FFS, even IG tanks can shoot at full BS while moving. But nope, we get less mobility than the definition of "gunline army".

And dancing around while shooting counts as NOT a gunline?

What "dancing" is there? You can't JSJ, so the only direction you want to move is directly away from the scary melee things (AKA "anything that isn't Tau"). And at that point you can just deploy your gunline as far back as possible in your deployment zone instead of bothering to move. It's not like you have to worry about not being in range, anything but Tau (or maybe an IG barrage list) will be moving towards you as fast as possible to wipe you off the table in melee.

Or Dal'y'th doing their version of JSJ?

Oh yes, where I can now restrict myself to a single sub-faction and burn CP to use something that used to be the core of my army. Sounds like a great upgrade.

 Peregrine wrote:


The "small" penalty of losing 25% of their firepower? No thanks. And I moved my tanks all the time back in 5th edition. Being able to move 12" to get a good shot was a really strong ability.

FFS, even IG tanks can shoot at full BS while moving. But nope, we get less mobility than the definition of "gunline army".

And IG tanks can't fly. The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

What "dancing" is there? You can't JSJ, so the only direction you want to move is directly away from the scary melee things (AKA "anything that isn't Tau"). And at that point you can just deploy your gunline as far back as possible in your deployment zone instead of bothering to move. It's not like you have to worry about not being in range, anything but Tau (or maybe an IG barrage list) will be moving towards you as fast as possible to wipe you off the table in melee.

Tau have probably the best chance at making a CQC army that makes judicious use of flamers.

Oh yes, where I can now restrict myself to a single sub-faction and burn CP to use something that used to be the core of my army. Sounds like a great upgrade.

It's all about trade-offs. And you want to complain about gunlines, but you'd use JSJ to make a more effective gunline...

Woah, Peregrine, let's not use logic here. Tau players are just whinging right? How dare we be unhappy with our bland codex that didn't really fix any of the index's problems.

Next thing you know Tau will be complaining about not having a psychic phase! Egads!

I'm a Tau player and I'm happy with the Codex... it buffed everything I play and use... but I can understand why people is upset, specially if they played a heavy suit army.

I never liked Crisis suits, or Suits as the core of my army. The only suits I use are one commander and 6-9 stealth suits.
For the job of Crisis Suits I use Vespids.

And I don't have a static gunline. Theres mechanized Tau armies that are movile and dont need to spam crisis suits and JSJ. JSJ isnt the end and all of Tau flavour.

I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

 Peregrine wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots.

And that's the problem. You're talking about a full squad of pathfinders and burning a bunch of CP for the stratagems just to get them up to a decent, not god-tier, level. That's a pretty big investment to make, especially when it's a one-shot weapon now that JSJ no longer exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Yeah, that horrible entitlement, how dare we feel entitled to an army that is more than an ork-style gunline that castles in the corner and rolls buckets of dice until someone wins. How dare we be annoyed at GW for progressively removing more and more of what the Tau used to be in favor of more gunlines. We should just accept that we are the most boring one-dimensional gunline army ever, and be thankful that we're maybe at least second tier in competitive games.

I think you might enjoy a heavy ghostkeel army. It's an in your face type unit and it got buffed pretty big in the codex.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

JSJ was a toxic mechanic. Basically made movement and placement irrelevant. You could shoot whatever you wanted without any hope of retaliation from your opponent.

 Galas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

JSJ was a toxic mechanic. Basically made movement and placement irrelevant. You could shoot whatever you wanted without any hope of retaliation from your opponent.

Until you rolled snake eyes, a three or even a four.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

JSJ was a toxic mechanic. Basically made movement and placement irrelevant. You could shoot whatever you wanted without any hope of retaliation from your opponent.

Until you rolled snake eyes, a three or even a four.

Yeah and if you rolled only snake eyes, threes or fours psykers would be thrash.

But we know the averages, and rolling two 6's, a 11 or a 10 are just as likely as rolling those outcomes.

 Galas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

JSJ was a toxic mechanic. Basically made movement and placement irrelevant. You could shoot whatever you wanted without any hope of retaliation from your opponent.

Assault units with 12" movement could easily chase down a JSJ crisis suit that is firing from the butter zones for a plasma or fusion weapon (CIB suits where a bit harder to catch) and if they are far enough away to make assaults unobtainable then they where probably not shooting from their optimal firing range. JSJ basically made it so Crisis and Stealths where not 100% suicide units who got 1 round of shooting before getting charged and wiped. With my Tau in 7th edition I mainly used thrust move to draw the enemy away from my main battle line to buy more time after my suits dropped in and did their shooting. If my suits where in my battle lines (generally happens when they need to DS near an ethereal with a homing beacon) I would just thrust moves to move the suits behind a line of Fire Warriors to screen them from a charge. That being said its not like crisis suits or stealths where hard to kill with shooting. A crisis was as durable as two MEQs (or instakill it with S8+) while a stealth was only T3 which makes any weapon with a decent rate of fire able to get a wound past the typical 2+ cover save.

As to the comparison to warp spiders, the gimmick people hated about Warp Spiders is that they would jump after being targeted for shooting so they could jump behind LoS blocking terrain or get out of firing range/arc which would waste the shooting. With blast weapons they could also jump next to their opponents unit (seen this with transports) to make it so a blast template would clip a friendly unit and thus not allowed to fire there.

 Galas wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm reaaaaallly off put by how much people liked JSJ. Like really? You liked warpspiders as well maybe?

It wasn't a fun mechanic when so much of the game was based off shooting when you didn't get to shoot half the time.

JSJ was a toxic mechanic. Basically made movement and placement irrelevant. You could shoot whatever you wanted without any hope of retaliation from your opponent.

Until you rolled snake eyes, a three or even a four.

Yeah and if you rolled only snake eyes, threes or fours psykers would be thrash.

But we know the averages, and rolling two 6's, a 11 or a 10 are just as likely as rolling those outcomes.

With JSJ you were just trying to hide, and usually aiming for being only 5 inches from cover. Rolling higher than the needed distance really wasn’t any better than rolling right on the minimum needed.

Wait are you arguing that an ability that significantly reduced your opponents ability to retaliate was ok because it wasn't 100%.

The ability is bad for the game as much as 2++ rerollables

in effect not because it is as powerful as 2++ rerollables but because its not fun for anyone.

you may as well been making pew pew noises because it denied your opponents anything to do.

My all-suit FSE army was essentially invalidated, and I have no desire to build and/or paint any Tau infantry. Not my thing. The death of battlesuits has made me unable to play Tau.

 Verviedi wrote:
My all-suit FSE army was essentially invalidated, and I have no desire to build and/or paint any Tau infantry. Not my thing. The death of battlesuits has made me unable to play Tau.

There's always house rules. If you're opponent is ok with it you could just bring back JSJ. But equally you shouldn't need to houserule a unit back into usability.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait are you arguing that an ability that significantly reduced your opponents ability to retaliate was ok because it wasn't 100%.

The ability is bad for the game as much as 2++ rerollables

in effect not because it is as powerful as 2++ rerollables but because its not fun for anyone.

you may as well been making pew pew noises because it denied your opponents anything to do.

If you were good at the game there were many ways to counter JSJ, like deep strikers of your own, cornering them, and positioning so that unless they hide in subpar positions you will see them. Just because you don’t want to counter something in a more nuanced way than just shooting it does not mean it is toxic to the game. The game should not be dumbed down to compensate for unwillingness to adapt to another player’s strategy.

 Jaxler wrote:
The game should not be dumbed down to compensate for unwillingness to adapt to another player’s strategy.

May I quote you on this in the 'Defense of Soup' thread?

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The game should not be dumbed down to compensate for unwillingness to adapt to another player’s strategy.

May I quote you on this in the 'Defense of Soup' thread?

Go ahead.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait are you arguing that an ability that significantly reduced your opponents ability to retaliate was ok because it wasn't 100%.

The ability is bad for the game as much as 2++ rerollables

in effect not because it is as powerful as 2++ rerollables but because its not fun for anyone.

you may as well been making pew pew noises because it denied your opponents anything to do.

If you were good at the game there were many ways to counter JSJ, like deep strikers of your own, cornering them, and positioning so that unless they hide in subpar positions you will see them. Just because you don’t want to counter something in a more nuanced way than just shooting it does not mean it is toxic to the game. The game should not be dumbed down to compensate for unwillingness to adapt to another player’s strategy.

You mean in the same way tau suits should also be beholden to good positioning? its a no brainier strategy to jump in and out of los to shoot things and move back.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait are you arguing that an ability that significantly reduced your opponents ability to retaliate was ok because it wasn't 100%.

The ability is bad for the game as much as 2++ rerollables

in effect not because it is as powerful as 2++ rerollables but because its not fun for anyone.

you may as well been making pew pew noises because it denied your opponents anything to do.

If you were good at the game there were many ways to counter JSJ, like deep strikers of your own, cornering them, and positioning so that unless they hide in subpar positions you will see them. Just because you don’t want to counter something in a more nuanced way than just shooting it does not mean it is toxic to the game. The game should not be dumbed down to compensate for unwillingness to adapt to another player’s strategy.

You mean in the same way tau suits should also be beholden to good positioning? its a no brainier strategy to jump in and out of los to shoot things and move back.

So identifying the best position for shooting on your guns that work best at range 12 inches, and landing someonwhere where your both close to out of LOS terrain, in effective range, and able to reliably jump shoot jump back to cover while compensating for the fact your enemy could flank around your suits and while making sure you can shoot the the right targets while using that limited range does not qualify as “needing to have good positioning”?

Ok.

If anything crisis suits take less skill now. Basically their skill cap is knowing what to shoot so that you get your points back in a round of soothing. Positioning with them is practically irrelevant because you can’t keep them alive and they need to be in danger to work.

Well if you only ever want to take 12" guns then sure.

JSJ was fine on Crisis suits when first introduced. Small model count units sporting short-and-medium-but-not-long range weapons meant that they could be relatively easily destroyed if able to be engaged at all and they couldnt just sit back on the opposite side of the table and avoid everything forever, especially if they DS'd in and wanted to make maximum use of stuff like melta weapons or doubletapping plasma. That they could flubb their JSJ roll also helped.

 Desubot wrote:
Well if you only ever want to take 12" guns then sure.

Crisis suit missile pods are trash compared to our other str 7 options. This leaves weapons that are melta, rapid fire, flamers or range 18. Allow me to correct myself tough “18 inches to one foot” would be the real range you are realistically working with.

Crisis suits kinda needed the JSJ for their point cost, I mean, T4 2W 3+ isn't exactly durable, especially when each suit would cost ~50-55pt and fought in close ranges most of the time, with dual MP suits being the exception.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Crisis suits kinda needed the JSJ for their point cost, I mean, T4 2W 3+ isn't exactly durable, especially when each suit would cost ~50-55pt and fought in close ranges most of the time, with dual MP suits being the exception.

Or at the very least, Stimulant Injectors/Shield Generators should be "rolled in" to the cost.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

Why not?

 meleti wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

Why not?

Because thats powercreep and a arms race that nobody likes. We had it from 3rd to 7th. Look how it ended.

You try to balance towards the middle, not towards the top.

 Galas wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

Why not?

Because thats powercreep and a arms race that nobody likes. We had it from 3rd to 7th. Look how it ended.

You try to balance towards the middle, not towards the top.

I don't think IG are on the top. Imperium Soup arguably is, but not IG.

 meleti wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

Why not?

Because thats powercreep and a arms race that nobody likes. We had it from 3rd to 7th. Look how it ended.

You try to balance towards the middle, not towards the top.

I don't think IG are on the top. Imperium Soup arguably is, but not IG.

A large number of people would disagree with that statement, but that's for another (already done) thread.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

Why not?

Because thats powercreep and a arms race that nobody likes. We had it from 3rd to 7th. Look how it ended.

You try to balance towards the middle, not towards the top.

I don't think IG are on the top. Imperium Soup arguably is, but not IG.

A large number of people would disagree with that statement, but that's for another (already done) thread.

On a side note, how many actual pure IG armies are out there topping tournaments? Not much, they are mostly there to fill troop slots and generate command points.

As for Tau I really think its (still) a problem that the focus of the army itself has changed and how they should be played is leaving the classic suitstravaganza of the olden days and coming more to a combined arms approach. I.E. tau now need a robust center of fire warriors (your swiss army knife, S5 is the gold standard this edition), they need kroot to act as chaff, and they need to leverage their fast units such as pirahnas and stealth suits to take objectives, and heavy units need to be able to tackle the hardier units out there. As stated before suits seem to be more "suited" to acting as a scalpel to remove hard to kill and strategically important units. As for the Stormsurge, i'm seeing it as something that can anchor a gunline. Its big gun takes out tanks and its rocket pods are ideally suited for clearing out infantry that ventures too close. Also the loss of traditional markerlights is hard to get around but the benefits of the current model still can bear fruit. The rerolling 1s is fairly powerful and you should be spreading that around to take advantage.

Actually the "focus" on suits got shoehorned in later. Tau were originally meant to be a combined arms faction with an infantry core backed up by suits and tanks but gradual lazy game design, marketing to push suits as the tau "thing" and badly pointed units made them super suit heavy for a while. When i started tau in 3rd edition I used tonplay a very combined arms force. I still get annoyed kroot arent a viable melee unit. They should never have been made a meatshield unit but a weak defense medium offense melee unit to.counterattack enemies.charging fw or attack enemies in dense terrain. Im also a bit gutted the army's mobility hasnt increased a bit to allow redeployments and outflanks as opposed to slow movinf gunlines but Im glad that 8th encourages a more combined arms feel to the tau. Dont get me wrong i own about 15-20 crisis suits plus commanders,and 4 broadsides (used to have more) so im sad the crisis and broadsides are overcosted or lacklustre, but overall im a fan of the codex. Especially how the strategems affect play

Also super glad the army hasnt turned out to be "top tier" i win button level. Id rather play a weaker faction that requires thought and tactics to win than an easy mode facrion that gives my opponent a boring once sided gane as I slaughter him

Bobug wrote:
Actually the "focus" on suits got shoehorned in later. Tau were originally meant to be a combined arms faction with an infantry core backed up by suits and tanks but gradual lazy game design, marketing to push suits as the tau "thing" and badly pointed units made them super suit heavy for a while. When i started tau in 3rd edition I used tonplay a very combined arms force. I still get annoyed kroot arent a viable melee unit. They should never have been made a meatshield unit but a weak defense medium offense melee unit to.counterattack enemies.charging fw or attack enemies in dense terrain. Im also a bit gutted the army's mobility hasnt increased a bit to allow redeployments and outflanks as opposed to slow movinf gunlines but Im glad that 8th encourages a more combined arms feel to the tau. Dont get me wrong i own about 15-20 crisis suits plus commanders,and 4 broadsides (used to have more) so im sad the crisis and broadsides are overcosted or lacklustre, but overall im a fan of the codex. Especially how the strategems affect play

Also super glad the army hasnt turned out to be "top tier" i win button level. Id rather play a weaker faction that requires thought and tactics to win than an easy mode facrion that gives my opponent a boring once sided gane as I slaughter him

As someone who also started in the wee old days when Tau came out I agree that was their initial design focus, I was more angling that toward the younglings who think the army has only ever been about suits, since many of them have only ever known suit focused Tau. I too miss the nice bonus to attacks the old kroot guns gave, they were practically Orks that shot better when they came out!

Yeah right! My reaction when the 6th ed coxex came out was "what the hell have they done with kroot?" Str3 must be a typo..
I liked that kroot his harder due to str4 but orks were tougher with a lower strength. Kindof a yin yang

You make a fair point. Those who want to play tau as gundam ala 6th and 7th are out of luck

Back in my day, Tau broadsides actually had proper railguns twinlinked.
And scared the snot out of armour non of you youngsters and your super suits back then.

I played Tau when they first came out. Predominantly Suits was a solid build back then. Kroot were a lot more fun, too.

Ice_can wrote:
Back in my day, Tau broadsides actually had proper railguns twinlinked.
And scared the snot out of armour non of you youngsters and your super suits back then.

I still got to enjoy fighting the old Broadies in 5th Edition, just ask my poor Land Raider Redeemer how that was .

@Topic: I started playing Tau about 1 1/2 months into 8th, when my plans to slow-grow a Tau force for 8th Edition (after a 5 years hiatus during the trainwreck that was 6th and 7th Edition) were turbo-charged by all the hordes of 7th Edition Tau players abandoning their armies and selling them on ebay for pennies (Excellently painted Hammerhead with Longstrike for €24? 10 Fire Warriors for ~ 8 bucks per squad? How could I resist ).

I had always been interested in them and always loved them as the modern, mechanized, combined arms military with all sorts of funky alien auxiliaries to spice things up, and I am really happy with Fire Warriors, Stealthsuits, Vespids and to a lesser degree Broadsides and Longstrike/(Ion) Hammerheads being such great picks.

Mediocre Crisis teams and certain questionable weapon choices (Plasma rifles and any Railgun not used by Longstrike) aside, the internal balance of the Codex is great, there are VERY few units which are non-viable and have no place in even somewhat competitive lists (Kroot Shapers and Shadowsun being the only standouts in that regard), a massive step up from the awful internal balance in the index. Broadsides are now good (though I consider Sa'cea a must for the HRR one), same for Riptides which are finally in the spot they should have since their release, Ld10 bubble Sa'Cea Ethereals are finally the great Fire Warrior gunline buffers that they were meant to be, Aun'Shi is now a solid pick and Skyrays are now pretty solid for the points as well, particularly if Longstrike isn't around. Longstrike was and is great (and became even better) and the cheaper Ion Cannon Hammerheads with the new Seeker missiles are SERIOUS AT firepower for the price. 5pt Kroot are finally at the sweet spot for bubble wrapping cannon fodder between Kroot Hounds and Fire Warriors that make them worth taking. And that's just to name the worst units from the Index that were suffering in a hole of misery.

In addition several mediocre units got serious buffs that made them very good choices (such as Darkstrider, Ghostkeels or Breachers in Devilfish), while other, already good units became even better thanks to further point decreases (Fire Warriors which are the biggest winners, as well as Stealthsuits and Vespids).

Crisis teams deserved some minor buffs such as a 5-10 point price cut, but are still a good pick as cheap triple flamer horde munchers, while being decent with CiBs+ATS.
Overall a great upper-mid-tier Codex, which is the place I like them to be (no hordes of WAAC-players ruining the reputation of the entire faction, no sighs from people in pick-up matches when they hear what you are playing, fun combinations and a huge selection of good units). Also the big Q&A as well as eventually the next Chapter Approved will be coming out, so I doubt things will become worse rather than better for the few sore spots (except plasma rifles, seems like the rules writers have no idea what to do with them).

And power gamers can still spam Coldstars and Y'vahras, which were both buffed to hilarious levels, particularly the latter (a massive hit with the nerf hammer for Bork'an Y'vahras can't come soon enough), if they gotta be oh so hyper competitive .

xmbk wrote:
I played Tau when they first came out. Predominantly Suits was a solid build back then. Kroot were a lot more fun, too.

I played a small game recently and used kroot hounds. still very fun IMO, the AP killed a couple marines and they were even able to survive a round of combat from a dread and a chaos HQ(not totally sure which one). considering how cheap they were, they easily were the stars and made up for my seeker missile experiment.

JSJ should have been a Tau strategm (costing 1 CP, maybe 2 for a Riptide?) in 8th.

 Stormonu wrote:
JSJ should have been a Tau strategm (costing 1 CP, maybe 2 for a Riptide?) in 8th.

No. Taking away unit abilities to justify the existence of the stratagem mechanic is terrible design. Stratagems should never have existed, and they certainly never should have been used to replace unit abilities (vs. being army-wide effects). And JSJ never should have been removed from Tau units.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
JSJ should have been a Tau strategm (costing 1 CP, maybe 2 for a Riptide?) in 8th.

No. Taking away unit abilities to justify the existence of the stratagem mechanic is terrible design. Stratagems should never have existed, and they certainly never should have been used to replace unit abilities (vs. being army-wide effects). And JSJ never should have been removed from Tau units.

Would almost make Crisis Suits worth their current points if their M was reduced to 6” and they got the same rule from the Vectored Thrusters signature item as a unit-specific rule.

The only gripe that I have is the Hammerhead railgun. It needed more shots, or more damage to make it worthwhile.