What a time to be alive 10 vanilla Kabalites in a Raider went from 175 to 135 pts (without counting the Raider's weapons). I think it's sad that we have to take Black Heart to enjoy Agents of Vect, it's like Mars for Cawl and Wrath of Mars for AdMech.
Aaranis wrote: What a time to be alive 10 vanilla Kabalites in a Raider went from 175 to 135 pts (without counting the Raider's weapons). I think it's sad that we have to take Black Heart to enjoy Agents of Vect, it's like Mars for Cawl and Wrath of Mars for AdMech.
At least it helps out our Flyers and Ravagers, gives them a 6+++, so its not all bad if you play those.
Also, 3 man Reaver units without any upgrades seems to be a really good pick of any game, they are 57pts, can turn 1 charge. Tho you need a Wych Detachment, luckily we have a good Succubus now, one that can get 9A
Yeah I picked up a Succubus just for this Codex. I wanted to run reavers again, and the Succubus will hang out in a Raider with 9 Wyches zooming up the field.
Also looking forward to blaster scourge drops.
This Codex thrills me. It’s gonna be a blast to play.
Do anybody know how big the black heart re-roll 1's to damage aura is?
The black heart has the worst army rule. Hier on the feel no pain table, although there is some silver lining. You can get 6+++ on non-pain table units. Good for transports.
The dark heart relic has the re-roll wounds on 1 in an aura. Combine this with the arcon natural re-roll hit on 1's aura is very good. This makes a good firebase.
Those points can go a long way to make dark heart almost as good as the other armywide rules.
The dark acon warlord trait regains CP on a 6's. And you have the 'counter spell' stratagem on dark heart.
That being said I really like Kabal of the Osidiance Rose +6 range. With 42" ranged dark lances are very strong. Just stay exatcly within shooting distance and even imperial armies with 48" has trouble bunching up their units to shoot back at you. PS: The wytch move 24"+charge bikes are very good to tie up imperial shooting if they are bunched together.
Niiai wrote: Do anybody know how big the black heart re-roll 1's to damage aura is?
The black heart has the worst army rule. Hier on the feel no pain table, although there is some silver lining. You can get 6+++ on non-organiced units. Good for transports, Incubi, mandrakes, scourges. (Does it work on beasts? Razorwing flock could benefit from 6+++.)
The dark heart relic has the re-roll wounds on 1 in an aura. Combine this with the arcon natural re-roll hit on 1's aura is very good. This makes a good firebase.
Those points can go a long way to make dark heart almost as good as the other armywide rules.
The dark acon warlord trait regains CP on a 6's. And you have the 'counter spell' stratagem on dark heart.
That being said I really like Kabal of the Osidiance Rose +6 range. With 42" ranged dark lances are very strong. Just stay exatcly within shooting distance and even imperial armies with 48" has trouble bunching up their units to shoot back at you. PS: The wytch move 24"+charge bikes are very good to tie up imperial shooting if they are bunched together.
The aura is probably 6" as always.
I think they have a not-so-bad rule, it's really like Mars for AdMech. Stygies' -1 to Hit is arguably the best trait, but it's Mars who runs the show with Cawl and Wrath of Mars. It looks like they didn't gave Black Heart one of the best rules (although they're fairly equal between the four I think), so as to compensate for having the best Stratagem and Warlord Trait. It's frustrating because I'd like to run Flayed Skull for an all-flying Kabal, but it will feel like I'm missing a good chunk of the fun without Agents of Vect. I'm not too fond of the 6+++, I had it once with my AdMech running Graia and it felt totally useless. The Raiders will still get crippled as soon as they're looked at seriously so I'd rather have more offensive abilities like Flayed Skull or Poisoned Tongue honestly.
Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges don't have the <Kabal> keyword as far as I know, sadly. They won't benefit from the 6++. I wish I could have the Flayed Skull bonus with Scourges but that would make them too good !
4d3 on average will be 8 shots, average 5.334 hits, average 2.667 wounds, but b.c 2 of them are 4+ it does 2 more MW's, giving us on average 5.334 wounds
4 Blasters or DL's will equal 6.24 wounds.
HWB Scourges are 92pts, Blaster Scourges are 128pts, thats a 36pt difference.
I thought about it a bit and after all it won't be hard to fit in a Black Heart Archon for Agents of Vect. I'll just run a Patrol with one cheap Archon and 10 Kabalites with a Dark Lance and keep them in the backfield, hidden in a ruin or something. That way I have my Warlord protected, a unit that can protect or capture backfield objectives, and still threaten a heavy unit with the Dark Lance if it comes too close (36" is still huge, though). And then for the bulk of my force I can run my Kabalites as Flayed Skull and enjoy my hunting party in raiders all day long, with a Splinter Cannon each. 26 splinter shots at 12", that ignores cover and rerolls 1s to Hit, + splinter racks, and the Dark Lance/Disintegrator Cannon, that's a lot of fire power.
I'll need to think of how to play the Wyches and Covens, I'll probably use the Covens on foot with the Haemonculus to sprint towards the front lines and occupy space, and my Wyches will mostly be Reavers.
Still needs how the Spring FAQ will affect army composition before that, though. At least an advantage of not having the army yet is that I can safely wait for changes before taking any drastic modelling decision
Aaranis wrote: I thought about it a bit and after all it won't be hard to fit in a Black Heart Archon for Agents of Vect. I'll just run a Patrol with one cheap Archon and 10 Kabalites with a Dark Lance and keep them in the backfield, hidden in a ruin or something. That way I have my Warlord protected, a unit that can protect or capture backfield objectives, and still threaten a heavy unit with the Dark Lance if it comes too close (36" is still huge, though). And then for the bulk of my force I can run my Kabalites as Flayed Skull and enjoy my hunting party in raiders all day long, with a Splinter Cannon each. 26 splinter shots at 12", that ignores cover and rerolls 1s to Hit, + splinter racks, and the Dark Lance/Disintegrator Cannon, that's a lot of fire power.
I'll need to think of how to play the Wyches and Covens, I'll probably use the Covens on foot with the Haemonculus to sprint towards the front lines and occupy space, and my Wyches will mostly be Reavers.
Still needs how the Spring FAQ will affect army composition before that, though. At least an advantage of not having the army yet is that I can safely wait for changes before taking any drastic modelling decision
Its good if you like Ravager, a Ravager with a 6+++ is better than a Ravager with nothing.
I'm going to do a my Melee Archon with 5 Warriors in a Raider along with 2 Ravagers (Or RWJF b.c they are really good now)
Should add i'll take a shreeder and melee weapon/blast pistol on that 5 man
At 57pts for a 3man no upgrades, you can have 2-3 uits and dont care if some die, its really good change for them.
There is also a stratagem if you Flyover 1CP, rol a dice for each Reaver, on a 5+ you do a MW. So even a large unit of 9 will get 2-3 MW's before you tie something up.
I think the fly over stratagem is better on helions. They have good movement. Are cheap enough to rain down death and charge into them. I do not know what drugs are best on them. T4 to keep them alive, or extra attack. S5 attacks would threaten all tanks with that D2 weapon, even without AP.
Aaranis wrote: I thought about it a bit and after all it won't be hard to fit in a Black Heart Archon for Agents of Vect. I'll just run a Patrol with one cheap Archon and 10 Kabalites with a Dark Lance and keep them in the backfield, hidden in a ruin or something. That way I have my Warlord protected, a unit that can protect or capture backfield objectives, and still threaten a heavy unit with the Dark Lance if it comes too close (36" is still huge, though). And then for the bulk of my force I can run my Kabalites as Flayed Skull and enjoy my hunting party in raiders all day long, with a Splinter Cannon each. 26 splinter shots at 12", that ignores cover and rerolls 1s to Hit, + splinter racks, and the Dark Lance/Disintegrator Cannon, that's a lot of fire power.
I'll need to think of how to play the Wyches and Covens, I'll probably use the Covens on foot with the Haemonculus to sprint towards the front lines and occupy space, and my Wyches will mostly be Reavers.
Still needs how the Spring FAQ will affect army composition before that, though. At least an advantage of not having the army yet is that I can safely wait for changes before taking any drastic modelling decision
Its good if you like Ravager, a Ravager with a 6+++ is better than a Ravager with nothing.
I'm going to do a my Melee Archon with 5 Warriors in a Raider along with 2 Ravagers (Or RWJF b.c they are really good now)
Should add i'll take a shreeder and melee weapon/blast pistol on that 5 man
I'm more leaning on Scourges with Blasters for anti-tank than Ravagers, it's just a matter of taste though It's cheaper money and points-wise to have 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters (128 pts) than a 3 Dark Lances Ravager (140). The Ravager benefits from the Kabal traits though, is somewhat resilient at T6, and can shoot from a safe distance. Scourges can deep strike for free, and look awesome. They also have 4 Blasters vs the 3 Dark Lances, that's one more D6 damage. Scourges are more alpha strike orientated than Ravagers. Honestly I'm tired of playing an army with backline artillery, so the more moving stuff I get the happier I am. Scourges are amongst my favourite models too.
EDIT:
Niiai wrote: I think the fly over stratagem is better on helions. They have good movement. Are cheap enough to rain down death and charge into them. I do not know what drugs are best on them. T4 to keep them alive, or extra attack. S5 attacks would threaten all tanks with that D2 weapon, even without AP.
If you run them with the +1S Cult, use the overdose stratagem with the +1S drug, you now have S7 AP-1 D2 guys moving at 14". A unit of 10 will provide the equivalent of 21 Autocannon shots in CC for one round
Niiai wrote: I think the fly over stratagem is better on helions. They have good movement. Are cheap enough to rain down death and charge into them. I do not know what drugs are best on them. T4 to keep them alive, or extra attack. S5 attacks would threaten all tanks with that D2 weapon, even without AP.
But if you dont play them
Tho a 20man Hellion unit will do 6-7 MW's compare to 3, the bikes however will get turn 1 charge, it depends what you want to do, my Hellions most likely will DS
Aaranis wrote: I thought about it a bit and after all it won't be hard to fit in a Black Heart Archon for Agents of Vect. I'll just run a Patrol with one cheap Archon and 10 Kabalites with a Dark Lance and keep them in the backfield, hidden in a ruin or something. That way I have my Warlord protected, a unit that can protect or capture backfield objectives, and still threaten a heavy unit with the Dark Lance if it comes too close (36" is still huge, though). And then for the bulk of my force I can run my Kabalites as Flayed Skull and enjoy my hunting party in raiders all day long, with a Splinter Cannon each. 26 splinter shots at 12", that ignores cover and rerolls 1s to Hit, + splinter racks, and the Dark Lance/Disintegrator Cannon, that's a lot of fire power.
I'll need to think of how to play the Wyches and Covens, I'll probably use the Covens on foot with the Haemonculus to sprint towards the front lines and occupy space, and my Wyches will mostly be Reavers.
Still needs how the Spring FAQ will affect army composition before that, though. At least an advantage of not having the army yet is that I can safely wait for changes before taking any drastic modelling decision
Its good if you like Ravager, a Ravager with a 6+++ is better than a Ravager with nothing.
I'm going to do a my Melee Archon with 5 Warriors in a Raider along with 2 Ravagers (Or RWJF b.c they are really good now)
Should add i'll take a shreeder and melee weapon/blast pistol on that 5 man
I'm more leaning on Scourges with Blasters for anti-tank than Ravagers, it's just a matter of taste though It's cheaper money and points-wise to have 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters (128 pts) than a 3 Dark Lances Ravager (140). The Ravager benefits from the Kabal traits though, is somewhat resilient at T6, and can shoot from a safe distance. Scourges can deep strike for free, and look awesome. They also have 4 Blasters vs the 3 Dark Lances, that's one more D6 damage. Scourges are more alpha strike orientated than Ravagers. Honestly I'm tired of playing an army with backline artillery, so the more moving stuff I get the happier I am. Scourges are amongst my favourite models too.
EDIT:
Niiai wrote: I think the fly over stratagem is better on helions. They have good movement. Are cheap enough to rain down death and charge into them. I do not know what drugs are best on them. T4 to keep them alive, or extra attack. S5 attacks would threaten all tanks with that D2 weapon, even without AP.
If you run them with the +1S Cult, use the overdose stratagem with the +1S drug, you now have S7 AP-1 D2 guys moving at 14". A unit of 10 will provide the equivalent of 21 Autocannon shots in CC for one round
Yes but Ravagers will live loner tjho and 4 wounds to a ravager means you still can shoot. Scourge are anti Alpha strike against you, where Ravager are more sustain
The helions has the 'hit and run' rule. So if you are pasient with them you can charge something that will not fight back, and then the following turn use the sky hooks stratagem.
While I see the apeal of both +1 attack and +1S, I am really hyped for the run + charge cult. It really gives you a lot of options while it is much harder for your opponent to counterplay. Cult of red grief is it?
What is the cult of red grief stratagem? Edit: The cult of red strife stratagem allows to retreat into transports again. Not what I was looking for with reavers and helions. Though could be cool with a tantelus. Depending on how it is worded you do not need to retreat into a cult of red strife transport?
The big problem with blaster Scourges for primary anti-tank is just that you will often not be able to drop within 18" of a good target. I mean, people have to be prepared to deal with 24" Obliterators and Destroyers. You can screen 18" just by deploying the vehicle at the back of your deployment zone and then another unit at the front of your zone.
With a 30 point troop choice we can field a MSU army very easily. This got me thinking about court of the archon spam again. Are they still independent characters? How many court characters can you take per archon?
dbhaack wrote: I though hellions were AP- not AP-1, did they get an addition AP to their weapon? If so they are going to be really nasty!!
Helions are unchanged except point decrease. So S+1, no AP and D2. As far as I know. I stil really like them though if you can protect them somehow. Having superior range, tying things up in CC with bikes and the -1 to hit startagem will help with all that.
spaceelf wrote: With a 30 point troop choice we can field a MSU army very easily. This got me thinking about court of the archon spam again. Are they still independent characters? How many court characters can you take per archon?
Honestly DE has always been MSU army with 1 maybe a couple Anvil units. Spam Kabals/Wyches/Elites/Vehicles and 1 or 2 heavy units like Beast stars, Coven, etc...
5th was 3 Trueborns, 5mans in venoms and RWJF's, Haemonculus x3 (sometimes with WWP) and a good Archon (Soul trap/Husk blade was really good back then)
6th was Beast/Baron/Shadowseer combo with Reaver and Trueborns spam
7th was CTC formation with loads of Reavers (I won some small tournaments with CTC and 6x6 bikes with Lhameaens and 3 troops in venoms with blaster)
But now that the points are equal to 7th points (everything went up from 7th to 8th) we are now back to MSU spam instead of pseudo elite spam and I LOVE IT.
About the Court? I havent seen all the rules yet, (other than the Body guard rules is still broken and i mean broken as in if the Archon takes 6 Damage from 1 weapon, all 6 damage goes to all the court even if 1 dies) but i am being told they got even cheaper than Chapter Approve, if that is the chase they will be highly viable, just dont use the Body guard rules.
So how viable to people think grotesques is now when they have -2 ap on thier cleavers. I really wanna run some because i think they are pretty cool, but i guess you really need to run them in deepstriking transports to get any value out of them?
ThePie wrote: So how viable to people think grotesques is now when they have -2 ap on thier cleavers. I really wanna run some because i think they are pretty cool, but i guess you really need to run them in deepstriking transports to get any value out of them?
They are fat. YOur opponent will not like that. Instead of deep striking transports, why not have 2 units in the webway at full unit siese for 3CP? Have the transports catch up.
ThePie wrote: So how viable to people think grotesques is now when they have -2 ap on thier cleavers. I really wanna run some because i think they are pretty cool, but i guess you really need to run them in deepstriking transports to get any value out of them?
They are fat. YOur opponent will not like that. Instead of deep striking transports, why not have 2 units in the webway at full unit siese for 3CP? Have the transports catch up.
Hmm i suppose, i guess it's better to convert the raiders into ravagers, i just feel like it will be easier to get them into assault if they start in a transport as extra protection.
On the other hand if i dont use the raiders i can always just buy the bits and convert them into ravagers.
ThePie wrote: So how viable to people think grotesques is now when they have -2 ap on thier cleavers. I really wanna run some because i think they are pretty cool, but i guess you really need to run them in deepstriking transports to get any value out of them?
I think grots are truely terrifying again. If you take them as red butchers from the 12 obscession they are all swinging power swords essentially lol.
In regard to the hellion discussion, I have to agree with others that they are good-great. People keep comparing them to reavers, when ideally you should be running with both. Reavers are turn 1 attention seekers which gives the hellions time to get there. The hellions hit WAY harder and get better mileage out of the sky hook strat. The hit and run also lets them slash their current opponent to ribbons before hitting a new target.
Niiai wrote: How many of the primarchs are infantry? If they are infantry the sky hooks become 5+ for mortal wounds. Could be good vs must die primarchs.
How is the stratagem worded? Movement phase only? How are red strife fall back vs transport worded, can you do that with helions?
Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.
Dionysodorus wrote: Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.
Hmm alright, i suppose wracks can still serve a purpose though? Figured 10 of them for 90 should be a cheap decently durable screen against first turn charge armies (like opposing dark eldar).
Oh yeah, will you still be able to chooce chapter approved warlord traits? I figured it could be nice to combine a Cult of Red Grief Succubus with the relic glaive with exploding hits on 6's
Just a quick question, do ALL of you play tournaments and only tournaments ? In my local meta there's no such thing as a "Guard screen", only one person plays Guard, and not always. It feels like the AdMech tactica where everyone thinks on tournament level and dismiss everything that isn't "downright OP" as "trash", and it's really tedious reading a tactica in these conditions. Not saying you guys were like that but just see the broad picture and don't dismiss possibilities too quickly please, thanks !
Besides I never had trouble with a screen of guardsmen, personally I just shoot them and they die, then die some more to morale. Every list should have some anti-horde, and luckily Drukharis looks full of options for that role.
The trouble I can see me having is having half of my force on the table at deployment. It will depend on my opponent's list though, a short ranged or melee army shouldn't make me put my Raiders in deepstrike, but playing against Dark Angels should prove more dangerous.
What match-ups do you think benefit us ? From the top of my head I can see Death Guard being easier to dominate, as their Toughness shenanigans and poor ranged options won't help them against mass poisoned attacks. We're also so fast that board control should be cake.
Aaranis wrote: Just a quick question, do ALL of you play tournaments and only tournaments ? In my local meta there's no such thing as a "Guard screen", only one person plays Guard, and not always. It feels like the AdMech tactica where everyone thinks on tournament level and dismiss everything that isn't "downright OP" as "trash", and it's really tedious reading a tactica in these conditions. Not saying you guys were like that but just see the broad picture and don't dismiss possibilities too quickly please, thanks !
Besides I never had trouble with a screen of guardsmen, personally I just shoot them and they die, then die some more to morale. Every list should have some anti-horde, and luckily Drukharis looks full of options for that role.
The trouble I can see me having is having half of my force on the table at deployment. It will depend on my opponent's list though, a short ranged or melee army shouldn't make me put my Raiders in deepstrike, but playing against Dark Angels should prove more dangerous.
What match-ups do you think benefit us ? From the top of my head I can see Death Guard being easier to dominate, as their Toughness shenanigans and poor ranged options won't help them against mass poisoned attacks. We're also so fast that board control should be cake.
I think space marine lists will be troublesome, they have extremely high accuracy and can brings lots of anti tank and plasma guns, which could be devestating.
The intelligent use of alpha strike and screening units isn't something unique to tournament play - it's just smart play. If your local meta doesn't make use of screens on a regular basis that probably says more about the seriousness of the people you play with. I'm not saying they're bad players, but if you only play with a small set of opponents you often aren't forced to adapt to new strategies.I agree that some posters here take the tournament meta thing too far, but that doesn't obviate the general findings about what is efficient and effective in 8th edition.
I agree about speed and board control btw, at least against lower model count armies. Against hordes speed can be trumped by model count and spacing. Deep striking bigger cult units could be cool too if you use venoms to eat overwatch.
My meta is harsh but in different ways, it's just people don't make Soups that much. I rarely encounter a solid screen past turn one simply because there's almost only Guard that can do that well with their cheap troops. Other armies in my meta like DA, BA, Death Guard or T'au can't just afford to let their troops hang around their artillery doing nothing, they're too costly. What happens generally is that they deploy smartly and forbid deep strikes in key locations, and after one round most of the time it's already chaos everywhere so no big deal to move around at this time.
I'm open to new ideas and strategies but yes, I hardly ever meet the tournament spam lists because I don't enjoy playing this with my poor AdMech. We have some brilliant players but their lists are unbeatable with my current army so that's that.
Just wanted to point out that when a new player may walk by a thread where half the people call their favourite units trash he may get the wrong idea of the game, seeing as his local meta may be totally different from the top 10 tournaments lists that he'll never ever see on table. I'm not saying we have to forget common sense neither
Dionysodorus wrote: Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.
Dionysodorus wrote: Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.
Niiai wrote: How many of the primarchs are infantry? If they are infantry the sky hooks become 5+ for mortal wounds. Could be good vs must die primarchs.
How is the stratagem worded? Movement phase only? How are red strife fall back vs transport worded, can you do that with helions?
Not sure if hellions will be allowed to ride since they FAQ'd that a while back, and primarchs are all monsters so it would require 6's but that said, hellions will MURDER characters that are infantry.
Dionysodorus wrote: Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.
They also got +1 wound
Really, they have 4 wounds now?
Index 3, codex 4, according to the video "They have wounds 4 attacks" he is reading it off the codex. (just so you know its not me saying it is all)
That certainly would make them much more worthwhile. Then they're paying the same as Wracks per wound and putting out more damage vs basically everything. Ordinarily 4 wounds would just mean you get plasma'd to death but their FNP (and mandatory 4++ Coven) helps a lot to reduce its efficiency.
Hope he didnt missread since they have 4 attacks, but one extra wound/ap for just 1 extra ppm would be incredible, putting 4 of them in a raider + haemonculus/archon would be a wicked nasty combo.
Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?
Its largely theoretical for now - but I think a kabalite carpet might not be the madness its been for years. (I realise a lot of people really don't want to play "horde/gunline Dark eldar", but just go with it.)
Kabalite shooting MEQ,
1*2/3(rerolling 1s from Archon),*1/2*1/3*13/6=28% return on points.
So at rapid fire range that's 56% return on points. Which is nasty. Even better with the re-roll 1s to wound relic.
Its worse against guard - you get 17/34% efficiency there, which isn't perhaps top tier - but its far from terrible. Shredders might theoretically help for the first time ever - but I still probably wouldn't take them unless you were going Obsidian Rose for the extra range.
Meanwhile a blaster vs a rhino is getting
(2/3+rerolling1s)*2/3*3.5*10/23=79% return on points.
Shooting 6 point T3/5+/6+++ models isn't hugely efficient and if MSU morale is irrelevant.
Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?
ThePie wrote: Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?
Depends what you are doing, if you are DSing and attempting to charge while using stratagems, then 20man, if you just want cheap melee units then raiders and 10mans
ThePie wrote: Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?
I would not deepstrike them. The ods are heavaly against you, and you often charge chaff.
Nids have +1 to charge, deep strike and re-roll to charge. None play them like that because it is bad. And a re-roll 8 charge is muuuuch easier then 9 reroll.
ThePie wrote: Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?
Depends what you are doing, if you are DSing and attempting to charge while using stratagems, then 20man, if you just want cheap melee units then raiders and 10mans
Hmm, while i suppose it would be nice to have the option depending on which opponent you are facing, i figured its generally wiser to deepstrike your raiders/ravagers instead to protect them against alpha strikes.
I do wanna run wyches to get some variety in the army, just trying to squeeze out how to run them as effeciently as possible.
Tyel wrote: Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?
Yeah, I don't think it's crazy. Obviously your worst case is against T3 but Warriors would only need to cost 5 points to give Infantry an even fight. They're actually quite competitive with Infantry vs T4, and that's saying something. They'll beat equal points in Fire Warriors in a shootout if both are getting the same number of shots each.
Obviously you're missing FRFSRF, but as you note you have pretty good access to various bonuses. You're either Poisoned Tongue for wound re-rolls or you have that wound relic, and with that and Archons you're re-rolling hits and wounds of 1 on everything for a 36% damage buff.
Your big problem is a lack of range and a huge HQ tax. Guard infantry spam works in part because you can back it up with mortars, but that's just not an option for Eldar. Obsidian Rose does help a lot here -- Vostroyans are similarly great. Likewise Guard get very useful 40 point HQs, and you're buying 70 or 80 point Archons. This is especially a problem if you're doing MSU since you can only take 30 Warriors in a Battalion. You'd really like to be bringing big squads to more efficiently spread buffs around and lower your tax -- you can in theory bring 120 Warriors per 2 HQs -- but then morale is going to kill you (though Obsidian Rose does have a nifty stratagem for that).
You'll probably want haywire Scourges or something for anti-tank. Blasters won't cut it on footdar since even 24" range with OR won't be enough. Also blasters significantly worsen your durability. They bump you up to 9.4 points per model and make you no more durable than Guardians even with your FNP.
If you want to commit to this, the main thing is going to be to deny the enemy anything worth shooting a lascannon at. You benefit a lot from Craftworld allies, probably. Alatoic flyers can cover a lot of your weaknesses (and a Hemlock's Ld debuff will help a lot vs other infantry) while being at -2 to hit. Rangers are a nice supplement to your Warriors. A Farseer with Doom improves your output by 50% if you're not re-rolling 1s to wound already and by 28% if you are. You could also deep strike a bunch of Guardians. If you want to stay pure DE then Black Heart Razorwings are probably a good source of anti-TEQ and anti-tank. If Razorwing Flocks got cheaper again alongside the big changes to their attack profile they might be a strong addition, but if they're still 14 points they're garbage. Mandrakes are likely to be a solid choice. It is also possible that some Talos would be useful in a slower list where they're not getting left behind by fast skimmers. They're big multi-wound things, true, but with the 4++ coven and a Haemonculus' aura they have one of the most consistently under-costed defensive profiles in the game (T7 3+/4++). Actually some Cronos might be worth it since even though they can't kill anything they're quite possibly the most durable things in the game. They're as hard to injure as Leviathan Hive Tyrants and they pay 40% less per wound.
If the morale issue can be sorted out without having to pay a ton for extra HQs, that probably works reasonably well. Otherwise you're probably better off still bringing a bunch of transports to get into rapid-fire range turn 1. The big difference from a traditional DE list would be that you're not trying to pack as many blasters in as you can -- you're just putting a ton of cheap Venom and Kabalite wounds in the enemy's face immediately.
Tyel wrote: Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?
Its largely theoretical for now - but I think a kabalite carpet might not be the madness its been for years. (I realise a lot of people really don't want to play "horde/gunline Dark eldar", but just go with it.)
Kabalite shooting MEQ,
1*2/3(rerolling 1s from Archon),*1/2*1/3*13/6=28% return on points.
So at rapid fire range that's 56% return on points. Which is nasty. Even better with the re-roll 1s to wound relic.
Its worse against guard - you get 17/34% efficiency there, which isn't perhaps top tier - but its far from terrible. Shredders might theoretically help for the first time ever - but I still probably wouldn't take them unless you were going Obsidian Rose for the extra range.
Meanwhile a blaster vs a rhino is getting
(2/3+rerolling1s)*2/3*3.5*10/23=79% return on points.
Shooting 6 point T3/5+/6+++ models isn't hugely efficient and if MSU morale is irrelevant.
It depends. If you go full all in haemoncally soak, you might soak all 7 turs?
Foor a full footdar list I would perhaps have an air detachment to lend some mobilaty. Their spped and -1 to hit can keep them alive.
I think footdar can work, i'll try it out once myself for sure. The big thing is you need tie up units, something like 3-4 units of 3 man reavers no upgrades to stop the attacks, 1 lance per 10man, and some HWB scourges. Mandrakes will be good too, being cheaper and -2 to hit, 5++ and 6+++ in black heart detachment.
Is it super comp? most likely not. But the problem is Raiders and Venoms are so cheap now (especially venoms @ 65pts base) the -1 to hit is an extra 16% suvivability and the 54+/++ is another 16% (well 16.667) to thats 33% better, being on 6 wounds tho, they are also being wounded on 4+ and not 3+, giving them even more defense over kabals.
It takes 72 bolter shots to kill a Venom
it takes 27 no overcharge plasma and 14 overcharge to kill a Venom.
Thats at 65pts, so whats 65pts of Kabals? 10 (well lets say 11).
It takes 42 Bolter shots to kill 65pts of Kabals (thats with a 6+++).
So, Venoms are for sure well worth it now, and thats not without the stratagem for an additional -1 to hit, or as Black Heart for a 6+++ on the Venom lol.
The big reason to not take Venoms is just that they give anti-tank weapons a target. In a worst-case scenario your opponent is going to be opening up Venoms with his heavier weapons and then killing the Warriors inside with bolters, without ever having to shoot bolters at Venoms. The Venoms are obviously more durable vs bolters but Warriors are just as durable as (non- Black Heart) Venoms vs BS3+ heavy bolters. The Warriors are more durable vs assault cannons. And then they're ~3 times as durable vs lascannons.
Of course, it depends a bit on what you're worried about. If you're expecting BS4+ then that -1 to hit is much more valuable.
I would like to have a flier as centerpiece in my army, but im speculating if the Razorwing or Voidraven is superior. The Razorscythe brings more shots, and the necrotoxin missiles are pretty good, especially now that they are 3d3 shots.
The voidraven on the other hand can bring str 9 lances for toughness 8 targets, and the bombs can potentially earn back the voidraven most of its cost in a single go against costly 10 man units. I heard that the voidraven missiles don't cost anything anymore so they should be pretty close in points. If not i guess a razorwing with Disintregator cannons & splinter cannon for 145 pts is a pretty good deal.
ThePie wrote: I would like to have a flier as centerpiece in my army, but im speculating if the Razorwing or Voidraven is superior. The Razorscythe brings more shots, and the necrotoxin missiles are pretty good, especially now that they are 3d3 shots.
The voidraven on the other hand can bring str 9 lances for toughness 8 targets, and the bombs can potentially earn back the voidraven most of its cost in a single go against costly 10 man units. I heard that the voidraven missiles don't cost anything anymore so they should be pretty close in points. If not i guess a razorwing with Disintregator cannons & splinter cannon for 145 pts is a pretty good deal.
Well some are saying the RWJF missiles are now 3 D3 shots, if that is the case it will be best for sure, you can also take Discannons on them for 5/10 points cheaper than lances. We need to see the codex on it 1st, and see if the missiles for the bomber are cheaper too.
The Ap-2 and the 4+ invuln are not cumulative on grotesques, aren't they? We must chose one of the two upgrades.
About the flyers, I've recently bought a bomber since I managed to find a BNIB one with a nice price discount. I think it was good even in the index version so I'm totally looking forward to try it Some of its missiles are the same ones of the razorwing, and if they're really free the bomber can even be the best flyer in the game.
Grotesques increased in cost by 1 point, but got ap -2 and 4 wounds. So depending on coven you have either a 4+ invulnerable or -3 ap, gonna look forward trying puttin 4 in a raidee with haemonculus.
OK so they're AP-2 stock. I wasn't sure if they were AP-2 beacuse of the coven bonus or not, thanks. I think the AP-2 is already huge, the 4+ invuln looks quite appealing
I've played the 4 dudes plus haemy in a raider combo several times in this edition, now with the codex I'll certainly continue to do that. The +1 points increase on grots is letterally nothing, we just have to field a few of them. And the haemy should be 4-5 points cheaper. However the raider is now way cheaper, -30 pts or even -35 if you give it a dis cannon.
I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.
I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.
Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.
Wracks are poison, dont care about +1S.
Grots go from S5 to S6. Doesnt help vs much.
Talos go to S8 I think which is admittedly nice. I can see taking Urien with lots of Taloi, say if you used to run corpsethief.
I ran a test game yesterday where I had 5 grots with the aforementioned reroll 1s aura guy and the 4++ and holy crap were they durable. I lost one single grot to basically 2/3 of a tau army's firepower (Like 100 S5 AP- shots with full marker support). sadly their homedawg talos ate a full fusion commander's firepower and he did not roll so well on his invulns. You hate to see those 2s.
I'm not seeing the -1AP trait as nearly so juicy after seeing that both monstrous cleavers and macroscalps got -2. 4++ is just so universally good, and Dark Creed is basically "do you want a LD shenanigan army? If yes, check this box here".
If your grots get into a tank or something that you think will give them trouble, just pop the 2CP reroll all wounds stratagem and go to town on them. 5 grots with that stratagem on do 6.2 damage average vs T7/T8 3+. Thats pretty good given theyre not anti tank monsters by any means.
I think our special characters are in a very solid, healthy spot for what special characters in 40k should be: Timmy Picks (if you're familiar with the MTG player types).
They get a whole lot of fairly unfocused awesomeness for a relatively small number of points...buuut you can take a slightly more expensive custom character who is generally better for a focused, power-gamed army setup.
I never wanted to be one of those armies that's hugely defined by particular named characters. It heavily cheapens subfactions and causes critics to judge the whole faction based on a super special toy only one gets (Right, Marine/Admech Players?)
Urien, Drazar, and Lelith all get suitably cool, epic stuff for their pretty relatively low points costs. Urien gets his strength aura, his extra defenses, his funky casket thing, his weaponry, all for the low low price of 10pts. Lelith gets her crazyness for 30. But you can make a Generic Brand Lelith with the Triptych Whip and the Strife trait who's putting down an absolutely mean number of attacks for super cheap. And you can get a generic POF haemie with the electrowhip and the reroll 1s invuln trait and he works out to more expensive than Urien, but he's more consistently useful.
Now with real auras and better prices, i agree, they are almost in a perfect spot, the onlyt hing better would be to have at least 1 mobile character, but oh well.
The more i look at Black Heart Archon, the more i want to run 3 Ravagers with it and the more i like using Black Heart.
With the Archons re-roll 1's to hit, and the BH Relic aura to re-roll Wounds, having him on foot seems good, being a character the opponent will have to go through 3 vehicles just to get to him, or melee him (He will for sure be my Warlord).
You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.
The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.
Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)
Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1
ThePie wrote: Hmm, Archon + haemonculus + 4 grots in a deep striking raider. Guaranteed to ruin someones day turn 2 xD
And brining a 5 man team or 2 of wracks makes good and durable backfield objective holders.
IDK if we can have Coven with Kabal now, has this been confirmed yet?
it has not been confirmed as of yet whether our transports will still transport Drukhari infantry or if the rule will change to only allow <subfaction> infantry, which would disallow this tactic.
Regardless, I'm not really feeling this tactic myself. Seems like a huge target to just plop down, and you could always just DS the grots on turn 2 in which case they'd have a decent chance of immediately being in combat.
per the HQ question, here's what I'm currently leaning towards:
Archon: The way I see it, you want to either give him a trait/relic to push him more into the "threat" category and run him in a transport (court as mentioned works fine in a venom, Incubi work fine in a Raider because they have no specials you're giving up with a unit of 5-9.) or you want him to be a backfield guy with a 2-point venom blade rocking the Black Heart relic+WL trait. I have two versions of "Threat Archon" one where hes in a Freakshow list with the generic "roll 2 dice for LD tests pick the highest" debuff trait, and one where he's got the Flayed Skull trait+Djinn Blade as in the TTT video.
Succubus: Probably the one I'm most likely to give her own dedicated Succu Bus, i.e. her own venom. I'll probably slot an Ur-Ghul in there with her just to halve the chance that she gets punked by an unlucky 1 when the vehicle gets destroyed and help her not get bogged down by infantry. My second choice is the old fashioned Crossfit Succubus, jogging behind the raider like a chump with 10" move drugs. Probably will run that in my Red Grief detachments because shes going to get into combat no problem anywho.
Haemonculus: AKA the easy one. Haemies (slash rakarth) are buffbots anyway, and all their stuff moves the same as them. Just walk 'em. If you just want to splash into haemie stuff, run them with 4 grots in a raider. Or 9 wracks - what, were you really missing that 2nd liquifier gun?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the biggest traps we're likely to fall into are "just deep strike them" and "put them all together in one transport."
Our transports now are HIGHLY cheap for what they do, especially the double splinter venom with Flayed Skull trait. 19" move, BS3 rerolling 1s on a dozen splinter shots that has -1 to hit and a 5++ for 75 points? That's completely worth it to transport a usually 80 point archon so that he can actually make it into combat turn 2. Similarly if you've got a 5-man squad of something in a venom, it costs you all of 5 points to upgrade that to a disintegrator raider that holds you an HQ.
Amishprn86 wrote: You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.
The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.
Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)
Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1
Sorry, I really meant is it worth fielding that detachment?
As in, is it any good? I don't know what these things are currently like.
Amishprn86 wrote: You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.
The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.
Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)
Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1
Sorry, I really meant is it worth fielding that detachment?
As in, is it any good? I don't know what these things are currently like.
Absolutely - though I'd leave out the raider and run all 5 grotesques. If you're running the three-patrol setup with Alliance of Agony, this is what I'd run:
Prophets of Flesh detachment (4++ Insensible to Pain)
Haemonculus with reroll 1s to Insensible rolls trait, Electrocorrosive Whip
5x Wracks, Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive whip
5x Grots
Talos with Splinter or Haywire, Talos Glove and 1x Macroscalpel
that'd give you a nice anvil to run at your opponent when you're tired of playing a glass cannon faction.
Can do w/e you want really, Wracks are great by themselve tho, they dont need a transport, but if you wanted to be hyper aggressive then you need to move them faster.
So the way I understand the new books, no reason you can't take Trueborn with 4 of the new blasters? Unit as costed and stated in index + no changes to the unit stats, given options as stated in the index but use weapon prices and stats from the codex?
Or do most tournaments now limit you to only things in the codex if there is a codex?
I was more curious if the tournaments restricted the old guard and marine stuff, which would suggest that Trueborn would generally not see much play. Otherwise with the boost to blasters and traits (no cover save from blasters, +6" range, +1 to hit unit with fly etc) I'd be curious to see how GW treat an index unit that might end up as popular as these guys.
Tastyfish wrote: I was more curious if the tournaments restricted the old guard and marine stuff, which would suggest that Trueborn would generally not see much play. Otherwise with the boost to blasters and traits (no cover save from blasters, +6" range, +1 to hit unit with fly etc) I'd be curious to see how GW treat an index unit that might end up as popular as these guys.
Tournaments right now are more or less GWFAQs and Codexs all stand and precede what ever they rule. That's the general stance. A few tournaments have been doing things like making it so you can't use Chaos/Aelf/Imperium to be your army wide faction keyword.
As for waht GW will do??? If they do like AoS, It'll likely be nerf to either being decent or bad, and ignored. Similar to how they did with Tomb kings and bretionians. Bretionians are actualy still doing decently, but they aren't really like tournament dominating.
Do people think it's worth putting 2 splinter cannons on the venoms, or save 10 pts per model and use the twin-splinter rifle instead of one of the cannons?
Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.
Amishprn86 wrote: I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.
I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.
Maybe you can fit all of them in a decent list now, 10 deepstrike by webway portal and 2x4 in raiders.
ThePie wrote: Do people think it's worth putting 2 splinter cannons on the venoms, or save 10 pts per model and use the twin-splinter rifle instead of one of the cannons?
Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.
It will depend on your Obsession, some will be better with, others are just better off without. If you are going for Black Heart, your vehicles are 6+++ and you have a re-roll aura of 1's to hit and to hit, or if your Kabals have a longer rnage shot, you can stay back with loner range and stay out of danger. If you are using them just for some extra shots and protection, i dont think its worth it, the 2nd Splinter cannon doesn't add to much, its more about the range than the shots. A Kabal is 6pts, sometimes the extra body or 2 is better, you get more wounds and still have a gun.
I will be doing Blast Pistol on 1 and nothing on the Other. My Black Heart Archon will just be base (Maybe Venom Blade if it is back and cheaper) b.c he is going to be walking on foot for buffs, the blast pistol one is up front and will most likely be in CC for aura and damage.
Amishprn86 wrote: I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.
I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.
Maybe you can fit all of them in a decent list now, 10 deepstrike by webway portal and 2x4 in raiders.
I'd deep strike one unit for 1CP, give them the 1CP stratagem which allows them to treat the turn as 1 higher for purposes of PFP, and try to charge them in. The odds of getting in when you have both a full re-roll and are willing to spend an extra CP if you fail but roll a 6 or 5 is right about around 70%.
WWP for Coven IMO is best, I like the idea of foot coven.
Coven will have 4++ now and FnP maybe re-roll 1's for FnP too, Wracks are T5 Grots are T6, For the cost of a Raider I can have 2 more Grotesques or 9 more Wracks, when factoring in the same toughness, 4++ over 5++ and FnP they are actually the same survivability, plus if a Vehicle dies any 1 means 40pts+ also dies with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it seems that we can "For now" have every Coven/Wych WL trait all at once. What do you think?
Amishprn86 wrote: WWP for Coven IMO is best, I like the idea of foot coven.
Coven will have 4++ now and FnP maybe re-roll 1's for FnP too, Wracks are T5 Grots are T6, For the cost of a Raider I can have 2 more Grotesques or 9 more Wracks, when factoring in the same toughness, 4++ over 5++ and FnP they are actually the same survivability, plus if a Vehicle dies any 1 means 40pts+ also dies with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it seems that we can "For now" have every Coven/Wych WL trait all at once. What do you think?
Im debating whatever it's even worth bringing an haemonculus coven, the haemonculus is not really that killy for his costs, so it all depends on how worth it wracks are.
On another note, will people be bringing disintregator cannons or dark lances on thier ravagers? personally i feel like we lack weapons with volume of shots with high ap to deal with marines, so disintregator ravagers could shore up that weakness, or perhaps it's better to bring more long ranged anti tank?
The Discannon vs DL is a large debate going on right now at TheDarkCity.
From Mathhammer, the DL vs vehicles is still better, but the HWB PFP is bette, Discannons are 1/2 cost now. The math shows DC and HWB are 1 wound less on average vs vehicles than Lance, but vs anything 2 wounds S5 or less DC's are better. Once its T6 3W+ DL's are better.
In general, taking both, or if you think you have enough blasters, then a little more DC might be better. I will be running at least 2 DC and 2 DL Ravagers, maybe 1-2 DC flyers and 1-2 HWB Scourges.
the_scotsman wrote: Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.
Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.
the_scotsman wrote: Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.
Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.
In the TTT Batrep Lawrence explicitly called it a reroll to the invuln saves, and the other leak I saw said it was a reroll to the "Pain Saves"
The HC invuln save rule is called "Insensible to Pain" IIRC. I assumed it was simply a misunderstanding based on the rules wording being so similar. Rerolling 1s on Inured to Pain would indeed be trash.
the_scotsman wrote: Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.
Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.
In the TTT Batrep Lawrence explicitly called it a reroll to the invuln saves, and the other leak I saw said it was a reroll to the "Pain Saves"
The HC invuln save rule is called "Insensible to Pain" IIRC. I assumed it was simply a misunderstanding based on the rules wording being so similar. Rerolling 1s on Inured to Pain would indeed be trash.
Well that TTT video had a few things wrong (this is for 100% sure) so i stopped believe in what he was saying and just listen to the ones that literally were holding the codex and reading out the rules.
We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.
the_scotsman wrote: We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.
Yeah, thats something i dont like. Tho Urien shouldnt be as killing IMO but he should have some amazing survivability and able to heal wounds on any coven and awesome auras, but IDK if he is even worth it in a full coven army.
Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.
ThePie wrote: Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.
You should be able to as far as anyone knows. The strategems in it are legal, thus the other content too.
ThePie wrote: Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.
They are still in the codex, however the Blood Dancer trait is now specifically tied to the Cult of Strife.
the_scotsman wrote: We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.
Yeah, thats something i dont like. Tho Urien shouldnt be as killing IMO but he should have some amazing survivability and able to heal wounds on any coven and awesome auras, but IDK if he is even worth it in a full coven army.
I think he's an auto take. The +1 strength aura is huge on grots and taloi. Wounding guardsmen on 2's for grots and talos punching through vehicles and monsters more efficiently is no small thing. Urien has always been about grots and taloi, hence why he was part of the grotesqerie. He is only marginally more expensive then a generic haemonculus. The fact that he is part of the clear cut best obsession and has the best WLT only seals it further. None of the haemonculus options are very killy and whats the point? Grots and taloi are leagues ahead in that department.
I actually think the more disappointing part of the release was how obvious PoF and urien were as competitive choices. They got the best trait, best stratagem and best WLTlol. It's a minor quibble but by contrast I still can't decide which wych cult to take.
I'll definitely agree on Taloi but huge on grots...S5-S6 pretty much ONLY helps with T3 currently, at least when it comes to the toughness values that are regularly seen in the game. and its not like Grotesques have a big problem with getting tied up by GEQ.
the_scotsman wrote: I'll definitely agree on Taloi but huge on grots...S5-S6 pretty much ONLY helps with T3 currently, at least when it comes to the toughness values that are regularly seen in the game. and its not like Grotesques have a big problem with getting tied up by GEQ.
This, for me i dont fight much T3, its all T4 or T7.
Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.
Personally, I'd go with Blasters.
I can't see many enemies actually staying in combat with them.
Re: Lilith, you can probably make a succubus more killy, but my understanding of Lilith was that she could pick her stat bonus every round. That makes her incredibly flexible (t1, take +2 move, t2 +1 str or attack, etc).
novaspike wrote: Re: Lilith, you can probably make a succubus more killy, but my understanding of Lilith was that she could pick her stat bonus every round. That makes her incredibly flexible (t1, take +2 move, t2 +1 str or attack, etc).
Yeah she also has all re-rolls vs characters, she really is more of a character killer where the succubus is a better general killer, if you are taking Wyches for AI then Succubus is better.
Patrols isnt as good as you think, yeah you get +1CP compare, but 2 Battalions and +1 detachment like Outrider/Spearhead is 10 CP total, and you have a WL trait to gain back CP on both players uses of a 6+.
I dont think i'll every use 3 Patrols honestly, its not as effcient for what i want, via CP and FoC slots, i need more Heavys/Fast attacks.
I haven't looked at the points yet but i'm leaning towards a battalion, outrider and another detachment IDK how i want it yet but for sure.
I like DE to be full shooting for 1st 2 turns, then into combo melee and shooting, i dont really care about staying max range unless its a few units like Ravagers. I like to Melee even with Kabals lol.
Battalion: Black Heart
Archon x2 (buffs and WL no upgrades)
Kabals x5, blaster venom - x2
Kabals x10, blaster x2, Raider - x2
Ravager x3
Detachment Flawed Skulls (need to figure this one out)
Archon (full melee)
Court with Raider
Flyer - x2 (if i can)
I love Coven, but I really want to play with LOTS of them if i play them, they are great even in small amounts, but its just the style i like to play. Edit: Unless CTC formation comes back or we can take them Talos in units again, that was fun
In this edition you need to shoot, a pure melee army is really hard to play. Considering that I think mixing wych cult and coven full detachments can be quite hard.
At the moment I think kabal+coven or kabal+wych cult can be excellent, but wych cult+coven or a mix with all the three keywords don't look that appealing.
I was thinking of using a large unit of reavers in a coven or kabal detachment, they won't get any buff but I can still give them a drug and use the -1 to hit stratagem on them.
- Flayed Skull Battalion, with 1 Archon and Drazhar, 3 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, and maybe 9 Incubi with Drazhar in a Raider as well I'll see;
- Black Heart Patrol, with 1 Archon and one squad of Kabalites on foot in the backfield;
- Cursed Blade Patrol, with 1 Succubus, 9-10 Wyches, at least 6 Reavers and some Hellions (maybe a lot);
- Prophets of Flesh Patrol, with either Urien or just a regular Haemonculus, some Wracks and fleshy giants.
It doesn't work with 3 detachments limit but my LGS doesn't enforce that anyway. I'll have 10 CP starting, minus 1 for the 3 WL traits, + 1d3 from Urien/Haemonculus. My Warlord will be the Black Heart Archon with Labyrinthe Mind, hidden in the backfield, safely hidden. Might add Ravagers so that he can do something while he squats around, but I'll favour Scourges with HWB or regular Blasters just because of the aesthetic. I'll see with the codex in hand what I'll add or take out.
Blackie wrote:In this edition you need to shoot, a pure melee army is really hard to play. Considering that I think mixing wych cult and coven full detachments can be quite hard.
At the moment I think kabal+coven or kabal+wych cult can be excellent, but wych cult+coven or a mix with all the three keywords don't look that appealing.
I was thinking of using a large unit of reavers in a coven or kabal detachment, they won't get any buff but I can still give them a drug and use the -1 to hit stratagem on them.
You always have some shooting, it is 40k and this is DE after all.
Aaranis wrote:My personal take will be:
- Flayed Skull Battalion, with 1 Archon and Drazhar, 3 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, and maybe 9 Incubi with Drazhar in a Raider as well I'll see;
- Black Heart Patrol, with 1 Archon and one squad of Kabalites on foot in the backfield;
- Cursed Blade Patrol, with 1 Succubus, 9-10 Wyches, at least 6 Reavers and some Hellions (maybe a lot);
- Prophets of Flesh Patrol, with either Urien or just a regular Haemonculus, some Wracks and fleshy giants.
It doesn't work with 3 detachments limit but my LGS doesn't enforce that anyway. I'll have 10 CP starting, minus 1 for the 3 WL traits, + 1d3 from Urien/Haemonculus. My Warlord will be the Black Heart Archon with Labyrinthe Mind, hidden in the backfield, safely hidden. Might add Ravagers so that he can do something while he squats around, but I'll favour Scourges with HWB or regular Blasters just because of the aesthetic. I'll see with the codex in hand what I'll add or take out.
The 3 detachments isnt a rule tho, it is a suggestion just like 2k points is a suggestion, and tournaments made it their house rule
Amishprn86 wrote: The 3 detachments isnt a rule tho, it is a suggestion just like 2k points is a suggestion, and tournaments made it their house rule
And it isn't even a suggestion for the majority of games. They specifically recommend it to people organizing events. The whole premise seems to have slipped into the minds of basically everyone who plays the game as a solid rule, though. So it might take some people by surprise and others may be resistant to it entirely, even if they aren't playing in any sort of event or tournament.
I don't play tournaments (and I won't as long as GW can't balance the game) and enforcing this in friendly games would be silly, people who want to play a fortification would be screwed with some armies, and so on. I get that it's an important matter for tournament players, but just wait and see, we don't have the codex yet, nothing happened yet, and we're already building lists based on rumours. Send massive petitions to big tournament organisers to include and exception for the pure Drukhari armies and maybe they'll include it. If people want to play those Ynnari shenanigans they have to stick to 3 detachments. I hate WAAC soups (fluff soups are fine) so I'm not too keen on defending Ynnari, as I also heavily dislike the concept of the faction as a whole, crunch and fluff.
What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?
This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.
The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks
Blackie wrote: What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?
This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.
The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks
But you lose your <Kabal> and <Wych Cult> traits if you do this, you still get the stratagems but what's the point in losing the 6+++ or the nice Flayed Skull traits ?
Blackie wrote: What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?
This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.
The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks
Niiai wrote: You do not want to contaminate your detachments with keywords as you will loose bonuses
This^.
You should be able to make the list the way you want, just need to fiddle with it a bit, at worst case, you might need 1 more HQ or 1 more Troop to do it.
What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.
Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.
If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:
Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment
Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.
Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.
Wyldcarde wrote: What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.
Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.
3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.
Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.
At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GWfaqs something...special i want to do.
The point of bringing a succubus in a kabal detachment is because she's cheaper than a second archon and with her I can have traits for the succubus and the haemy as well. With a second archon I can't give the trait to him or the haemy and I don't think he adds that much than a succubus, even with the kabal buffs.
I'd just bring her and some bikes in the kabal detachment. The bikes should be fine with the -1 to hit stratagem in turn 1, even without the wych cult buffs. 9 of them with 3 grav talons and 3 blaster is what I'm looking for.
My goal is to avoid wracks and bring no more than 3 HQs, preferably one of each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:
Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment
Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.
Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.
The kabal battallion looks solid as well, kabalites in venoms are very good now, more than wracks I think. Coven spearhead with 3 units of 2 talos could be nice, it's what I'm looking for, alternatively a vanguard with 3 units of grots or 2 units of grots and some mandrakes or incubi.
Blackie wrote: The point of bringing a succubus in a kabal detachment is because she's cheaper than a second archon and with her I can have traits for the succubus and the haemy as well. With a second archon I can't give the trait to him or the haemy and I don't think he adds that much than a succubus, even with the kabal buffs.
I'd just bring her and some bikes in the kabal detachment. The bikes should be fine with the -1 to hit stratagem in turn 1, even without the wych cult buffs. 9 of them with 3 grav talons and 3 blaster is what I'm looking for.
My goal is to avoid wracks and bring no more than 3 HQs, preferably one of each.
You do know that that breaks the Kabal detachment bonus as well though, right? if you bring just one succubus in a Kabal detachment, then it is no longer a Kabal detachment. It's a Drukhari detachment, which gets no trait.
If you want to bring exactly one of each type of HQ, I *think* I know of some way for you to get that done in three detachments...
For one of each I can go with coven spearhead/vanguard, kabal battallion/spearhead and wych cult battallion/outrider. But I fear I couldn't field all the units that I wanted to try together without losing the bonuses.
Alternatively I can use some patrol detachments but I must give up some CP this way as no way I'm going to field wracks
Wyldcarde wrote: What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.
Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.
3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.
Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.
At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GWfaqs something...special i want to do.
I didn’t say anything about patrols?
Supreme command to me anyway seems to tick the box of getting a black heart archon and homonculus without compromising the rest of the list.
You don't need a black heart archon though. Technically, I think you just need a black heart detachment of some kind in your army. Hence my suggestion of an airwing - Black Heart is the best subfaction to have for an airwing anyway.
Wyldcarde wrote: Black heart archon for the get back cps spent on a 6 trait. Seems pretty good.
Oh, sure. Yeah. I think the best use of him is pretty unequivocally just standing near some ravagers with the reroll wound rolls of 1 relic and a venom blade so he's absolute minimum cost. He's a captain and a lieutenant rolled into one and he gives you the good strat and decent value for his points.
Wyldcarde wrote: What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.
Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.
3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.
Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.
At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GWfaqs something...special i want to do.
I didn’t say anything about patrols?
Supreme command to me anyway seems to tick the box of getting a black heart archon and homonculus without compromising the rest of the list.
Never said you did? Just used you as an example, we wont see much patrols.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: You don't need a black heart archon though. Technically, I think you just need a black heart detachment of some kind in your army. Hence my suggestion of an airwing - Black Heart is the best subfaction to have for an airwing anyway.
This i'm not sure of honestly, others might know more than me, but we will know 100% for sure when the codex comes out.
10x Kabalite Warriors 60 with 2x Blasters 34 and Dark Lance 20
Raider 65 with Dark Lance 20 and Shock Prow 1
Venom 55 w/2x Splinters 20
Ravager 65 with 3x Dark Lance 60
2x Sslyth
This is my first Wych-focused list with the new leaks and rules from the new codex, and it should come out to around 2k. It is based on the models I own, so some choices are driven by that (I'd love to field 3 ravagers...I don't have 3 ravagers, etc. I'd love to field a plane, I don't have a plane.)
One of the succubi gets 10" movement and just jogs after the wych raiders. two of the succubi board THE SSLYTH PARTY BUS with the Archon (the venom) and rely on lots of distractions to keep them from getting blown away. 12 Red Grief Reavers do what 12 Red Grief Reavers do and shoot up 26" turn 1 to get the party started. I'll most likely give them Splintermind to save them a couple LD casualties and actually give the T drug to the hellions most games, since the Hellions will be unconcerned with LD but probably still will be a fire magnet. People just don't seem to like seeing the swarm of clear bases and target those guys a lot.
Wyches are Attacks, Attacks, Strength rolling into the 2nd iteration of the drug table, and Succubi will be Move, WS, and probably Strength on the Red Grief gal with the relic. Kabal is BH primarily so I can get ramshackle on my vehicles and Agents of Vect.
the_scotsman wrote: If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:
Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment
Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.
Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.
The problem with Dark creed isn't that the bonuses are not good or useful but that they didn't give us many useful wasy to use it. All the best moves require psyckers from other armies to combo from. Heck, even the PGL needs to come from another model outside coven. Then it requires your opponents list to not be prepared for LD issues. There are tons of ways to protect your units from LD problems, this would be my guess as to why they got the character sniping stratagem. But as a chaos player who has played and seen night lords played I can tell you it is not nearly as good as it looks on paper. The units it works on most often are chaf that don't care.
Also, just to go back a bit in regard to grots being strength 6 over 5, it definitely is a meta thing. I play competitive player, even the casuals or fluffy players like to have an edge since we were all at least competitive in the past. GEQ is the best type of infantry when it comes to 8th, being able to hit and wound on 2's with the now improved AP is a massive difference. It's 16% but when your looking at 100+ dudes that's the difference between another 16 killed or not. And GEQ is definitely something grots should be mulching through, coven has no other decent way to clear them. In fact the other best way to clear chaf is with cult, which as others have already said, does not pair best with coven do to overlap.
Niiai wrote: Then take it into the rules section. This is not the place for it. Discussions like this bring on to much baggage in a thread like this.
Yep, moved tho i'd really like this question put to rest allready as it IS pertinent for a "transport" based army. Aaaaand moving on to other shenanigans because.... duh. Can a stat every be modified under 0? I know a 1 is allways a failure but i'm talking leadership here. I'm curious if a "LD bomb" style list would be viable. Chaos could do this but chaos has to either do it with squishy Night Lords Infantry + expensive FW models. DE could do it with units you'd want to take normally.
So it's like 3 from Obssesion, 1 From killing the WL ("easily done via essoteric kill from afar), 2 From a hemlock, 1 from Horrify ... a Wraithseer could add 1 for a -8. Anything else? If this was applyed to say a unit with 6 LD, would it hit -2 or 0? Also Shadow specter force unit to trait morale rolls as "melta" and i think incubi or Drazhar make 1 aditional model flee? (i have a brief flash of seeing something regarding to the DE codex along the lines of "each time a model flees an aditonal one does" as in... double morale casualties? Could just be how the writer was hastilly translating it or could just be a fever dream...
Moving this from the other thread if we are trying to migrate.
Just looked at the core rules - Leadership can never be modified below 1.
For those curious, here is the list of things I know of that modify or affect leadership:
I just don't want to commit to that title gag for eternity, especially when the far superior 'whose spine is it anyway, where everything's made up and the power levels don't matter' is available.
Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"
And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!
Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"
And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!
Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"
And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!
I think I've found the perfect use for them...
lol... well just Double check, you can only have 4 per detachment, and doesnt take up FoC slots, they also lost character keyword and are 15pts (all Court is like this and cheaper now,)
I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.
lessthanjeff wrote: I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.
And stuff like that is why i dont care for results of tournaments other than to look for fun (i mean to gauge a codex power) there might be some amazing combos but you never will see out of fear losing the game via house rule missions.
With that said, I mike it too, i just know some used to like to splash a couple here and there and character helps that style more so than how they are meant to be played (with an Archon). ts a bit more fluffy now, it also means GW is willing to make them cheaper (which i like more than character rule).
I find the ITC missions way more balanced and engaging myself though. They may get called "house rules", but I hate the randomness of the maelstrom missions where luck affects the winner more than strategy and the eternal war missions demonstrate very little in the way of tactics or engagement with scoring only being done at the end.
Isn't it worse to play the game by the rules and lose to luck?
lessthanjeff wrote: I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.
And stuff like that is why i dont care for results of tournaments other than to look for fun (i mean to gauge a codex power) there might be some amazing combos but you never will see out of fear losing the game via house rule missions.
With that said, I mike it too, i just know some used to like to splash a couple here and there and character helps that style more so than how they are meant to be played (with an Archon). ts a bit more fluffy now, it also means GW is willing to make them cheaper (which i like more than character rule).
Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.
Niiai wrote: Then take it into the rules section. This is not the place for it. Discussions like this bring on to much baggage in a thread like this.
Yep, moved tho i'd really like this question put to rest allready as it IS pertinent for a "transport" based army. Aaaaand moving on to other shenanigans because.... duh. Can a stat every be modified under 0? I know a 1 is allways a failure but i'm talking leadership here. I'm curious if a "LD bomb" style list would be viable. Chaos could do this but chaos has to either do it with squishy Night Lords Infantry + expensive FW models. DE could do it with units you'd want to take normally.
So it's like 3 from Obssesion, 1 From killing the WL ("easily done via essoteric kill from afar), 2 From a hemlock, 1 from Horrify ... a Wraithseer could add 1 for a -8. Anything else? If this was applyed to say a unit with 6 LD, would it hit -2 or 0? Also Shadow specter force unit to trait morale rolls as "melta" and i think incubi or Drazhar make 1 aditional model flee? (i have a brief flash of seeing something regarding to the DE codex along the lines of "each time a model flees an aditonal one does" as in... double morale casualties? Could just be how the writer was hastilly translating it or could just be a fever dream...
Moving this from the other thread if we are trying to migrate.
Just looked at the core rules - Leadership can never be modified below 1.
For those curious, here is the list of things I know of that modify or affect leadership:
Imateria wrote: Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.
Are these the revised rules that still allow Girlyman to hide behind a few conscripts that barely reach his knees, whilst an Archon can be effortlessly picked out behind his dedicated bodyguard?
Imateria wrote: Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.
Are these the revised rules that still allow Girlyman to hide behind a few conscripts that barely reach his knees, whilst an Archon can be effortlessly picked out behind his dedicated bodyguard?
LOL funny way to put it, well not anymore b.c they are not characters
If it's true that they don't count as characters and since taking 4 doesn't seem to count as a single unit of 4 but 4 separate units of 1, it'll be a real pain for enemy targeting. I'd definitely bring my medusae back out to ride along with archons in their own venoms.
Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
EDIT: Note, this is with both a warlord trait and the Blood Glaive relic, so no spamming potential.
Raulengrin wrote: Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?
Raulengrin wrote: Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?
Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.
I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.
Yeah, but the Glaive was free in the index, so I'd assumed it still was.
Yeah, the relic is +3 str, ap-3 D3d no hit penalty. And you can only have one of those succubi because it needs both a warlord trait and a relic. She also comes with an agonizer, which costs 4 points, hence 54 not 50.
EDIT: She can in fact replace agonizer with a splinter pistol.
Raulengrin wrote: Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?
Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.
I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.
did she lose access to the splinter pistol? I thought she had the option of a 0 cost weapon loadout with the glaive and the pistol.
To answer the Glaive question: what he's referring to is both a warlord trait (the 3++) and a relic (the S6 no -1 to hit glaive) so it doesn't work with a supreme command detachment, only one succubus gets to be awesome.
Compared to current stats the only change to the basic glaive is D3 damage.
Raulengrin wrote: Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?
Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.
I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.
did she lose access to the splinter pistol? I thought she had the option of a 0 cost weapon loadout with the glaive and the pistol.
To answer the Glaive question: what he's referring to is both a warlord trait (the 3++) and a relic (the S6 no -1 to hit glaive) so it doesn't work with a supreme command detachment, only one succubus gets to be awesome.
Compared to current stats the only change to the basic glaive is D3 damage.
Oh, you're right, she can replace the agonizer with a pistol. So only 50 points! However the Blood Galive is actually better that the standard glaive on several accounts.
Standard Glaive is S+2 AP-3 1D -1 to hit. Blood Galive is S+3 Ap-3 D3D
Raulengrin wrote: Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.
So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?
Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.
I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.
did she lose access to the splinter pistol? I thought she had the option of a 0 cost weapon loadout with the glaive and the pistol.
To answer the Glaive question: what he's referring to is both a warlord trait (the 3++) and a relic (the S6 no -1 to hit glaive) so it doesn't work with a supreme command detachment, only one succubus gets to be awesome.
Compared to current stats the only change to the basic glaive is D3 damage.
Oh, you're right, she can replace the agonizer with a pistol. So only 50 points! However the Blood Galive is actually better that the standard glaive on several accounts.
Standard Glaive is S+2 AP-3 1D -1 to hit. Blood Galive is S+3 Ap-3 D3D
Wait, seriously the standard glaive DIDNT go up to D3 damage?? Damn, that was rumored in a couple places.
screw you GW, I was so looking forward to semi-usable Succubi... Looks like it's red grief relic succubus or strife tryptich whip build or bust, then.
It seems you can replace the glaive and agonizer with the standard wych weapons now. So razorflails, etc.
Also something I haven't seen floating around before, but maybe I missed it. Talos chain flails got a bit better! Still same statline, still rerolls wounds, but now you make 2 attack rolls for each attack. So 10 attacks per Talos.
the_scotsman wrote: Wait, seriously the standard glaive DIDNT go up to D3 damage?? Damn, that was rumored in a couple places.
screw you GW, I was so looking forward to semi-usable Succubi... Looks like it's red grief relic succubus or strife tryptich whip build or bust, then.
Yeah, that's really disappointing. They could have at least removed the -1 to hit penalty from the standard Glaive, which is nothing but a middle-finger to DE players.
Amishprn86 wrote: AH, i miss that, lol. Thanks for clarifying, so you can if wanted too take a 50pt succubi, ok.
Also to clarifying, beasts need a beastmaster to unlock, Beastmasters gives 4 no slot beast just like Archons give 4 no slot Courts.
DE is really limited on Brigades it seems.
Actually it looks like the rule for both court and beasts changed to so long as you have the appropriate unit (archon or Beasmaster) you can include as many as you want, not just 4 per anymore. And nothing seems to prevent you from bringing either without an archon or beastmaster, they would just take up slots at that point.
Amishprn86 wrote: AH, i miss that, lol. Thanks for clarifying, so you can if wanted too take a 50pt succubi, ok.
Also to clarifying, beasts need a beastmaster to unlock, Beastmasters gives 4 no slot beast just like Archons give 4 no slot Courts.
DE is really limited on Brigades it seems.
Actually it looks like the rule for both court and beasts changed to so long as you have the appropriate unit (archon or Beasmaster) you can include as many as you want, not just 4 per anymore.
People with the codex are telling me its limited 4 per, before in the index they were Elites or Fast and if you took an Archon for BM you got 1 unit without a slot.
We'll know for sure in a couple days tho when everyone has it, and not a couple stores selling early bc of early shipments
Amishprn86 wrote: AH, i miss that, lol. Thanks for clarifying, so you can if wanted too take a 50pt succubi, ok.
Also to clarifying, beasts need a beastmaster to unlock, Beastmasters gives 4 no slot beast just like Archons give 4 no slot Courts.
DE is really limited on Brigades it seems.
Actually it looks like the rule for both court and beasts changed to so long as you have the appropriate unit (archon or Beasmaster) you can include as many as you want, not just 4 per anymore.
People with the codex are telling me its limited 4 per, before in the index they were Elites or Fast and if you took an Archon for BM you got 1 unit without a slot.
We'll know for sure in a couple days tho when everyone has it, and not a couple stores selling early bc of early shipments
EDIT: Nevermind, there is a random box on a completely different page that covers the rule. Right, only 4 per detachment for courts and 3 per detachment for beasts.
So, the succubus can take a Shardnet and Impaler, Hydra Gauntlets or Razorflails. hmmm. Razorflail succubus with Cursed Blade kills an extra 1.4 GEQ per round of combat, that's pretty good. Hydra gauntlets have you pretty much treading water vs 3+ saves, but since most of the basic characters you'll be up against have invulns, the additional wounds you get pre-saves will probably outperform the AP-3 on a glaive.
I will most likely start equipping my CB succubi like that, as much as it pains me that the stupid 4 point wych upgrade weapons are the best option I've got. The glaive is just...so terrible.
Since you are looking at a codex, a few questions I haven't seen elsewhere
Point cost of talos/chronos with standard weapons?
Changes to profile of beasts?
Changes to point costs of any of the beasts?
Changes to price / stats of the beastmaster? It looked like someone had him now only telling 1s instead of all missed hits?
Frowny wrote: Since you are looking at a codex, a few questions I haven't seen elsewhere
Point cost of talos/chronos with standard weapons?
Changes to profile of beasts?
Changes to point costs of any of the beasts?
Changes to price / stats of the beastmaster? It looked like someone had him now only telling 1s instead of all missed hits?
Talos with 2 macro scalpels and 2 splinter cannons: 103
None to Clawed fiend or Khymerae, Razorwings are WS4+ 4 attacks ap-1 now, all else same
I've also got a few questions if you've got the time:
1) Is there definitely no artefact or such that grants extra speed/flight?
2) What does the Animus Vitae do? 3++ mentioned it, but didn't give its effect.
3) Apparently there's a generic warlord trait called Soul Thirst. "+1A on first round of combat, heal 1 wound per model slain in fight phase." Is that correct?
blendertalos is indeed an interesting option now. So Talos has the option to be a generalist with the cleaver, an anti-infantry beast with the chainflail, or an anti-tank weapon with the pimp hand. That's good for folks who like their pain engine armies.
vipoid wrote: I've also got a few questions if you've got the time:
1) Is there definitely no artefact or such that grants extra speed/flight?
2) What does the Animus Vitae do? 3++ mentioned it, but didn't give its effect.
3) Apparently there's a generic warlord trait called Soul Thirst. "+1A on first round of combat, heal 1 wound per model slain in fight phase." Is that correct?
1) I thought I read a post about you coming to terms with this. There's nothing.
2) Once per battle, 6" grenade 1 weapon with no stats. If it hits, target suffers d3 mortal wounds. If anything is killed, units within 6" of bearer counts power from pain as 1 higher for the rest of the turn so long as they stay within 6" of bearer. Hot garbage.
3)Yes, though the wording is on the turn they charge, were charged, or made a heroic intervention. Wound restore is on model killed.
the_scotsman wrote: blendertalos is indeed an interesting option now. So Talos has the option to be a generalist with the cleaver, an anti-infantry beast with the chainflail, or an anti-tank weapon with the pimp hand. That's good for folks who like their pain engine armies.
yeah for a Coven army it'll be fine, but i think in a basic Tri cult list, i would go Wracks or Grots for coven options.
the_scotsman wrote: blendertalos is indeed an interesting option now. So Talos has the option to be a generalist with the cleaver, an anti-infantry beast with the chainflail, or an anti-tank weapon with the pimp hand. That's good for folks who like their pain engine armies.
yeah for a Coven army it'll be fine, but i think in a basic Tri cult list, i would go Wracks or Grots for coven options.
Depends if you like Urien. He looks to be pretty hot gak with Taloi.
So on Talos that looks like about a 25 point drop (~20%), on top of gaining -1 AP, +1 attacks and the obsession benefits. Plus some of the other weapons are more appealing now (Haywire blasters etc.). Not terrible, although I still worry they'd be too slow unless you are going all-in on coven units.
I'm sad the beasts didn't get changed at all. Strong DE lists prior to the codex never ever used them, instead focusing on kabelites in raiders/venoms. Fortunately, they dropped the price of both raiders and kabelites without beasts at all. Oh well. At least the beastmaster is much more reasonably priced. 60->45 is pretty ok.
Someone misread the talos rule earlier. The weapon is not an extra hit roll for each attack, it's 1 extra attack for fighting, like a chainsword. Should not be getting 10ish attacks.
Edit: nevermind I thought they were referring to the macroscalpel. It's the other weapon.
2) Once per battle, 6" grenade 1 weapon with no stats. If it hits, target suffers d3 mortal wounds. If anything is killed, units within 6" of bearer counts power from pain as 1 higher for the rest of the turn so long as they stay within 6" of bearer. Hot garbage.
Well I'm sure glad there's no flight relic. I'd have hated it if GW had been forced to cut this gem from the codex to make room.
Raulengrin wrote: 3)Yes, though the wording is on the turn they charge, were charged, or made a heroic intervention. Wound restore is on model killed.
GW is legally required to give one colossally gakky grenade relic to Dark Eldar each edition, in the tradition of the (in)famous ORBS OF MISERY from last ed.
the_scotsman wrote: GW is legally required to give one colossally gakky grenade relic to Dark Eldar each edition, in the tradition of the (in)famous ORBS OF MISERY from last ed.
Does anyone confirm the Haemunculus Coven stratagems that Scotsman told? The rerolling wounds in fight and regain d3 wounds on a monster I mean.
What about all the the Grots and Haemunculus weapons, the ''weapons of torture''? Do they have all the same stats?
Last thing, is the Talos fist flat D3 o Dd3? Cs if its just a d3 damage like a normal fist, the macroscalpel is more or less the same against vehicles...
DarklyDreaming wrote: Does anyone confirm the Haemunculus Coven stratagems that Scotsman told? The rerolling wounds in fight and regain d3 wounds on a monster I mean.
What about all the the Grots and Haemunculus weapons, the ''weapons of torture''? Do they have all the same stats?
Last thing, is the Talos fist flat D3 o Dd3? Cs if its just a d3 damage like a normal fist, the macroscalpel is more or less the same against vehicles...
It's the same as a normal fist. It bumps the talos' strength up to 8 and has an extra AP, it does more damage on average vs T7 and T8 targets as long as the extra AP point matters (i.e. no invuln saves)
That said...yeah, if that chainflail change is true, and it give you 10 attacks... that's a much more compelling reason to swap out a scalpel than "I'm fighting a tank and I need 10% more oomph to kill it"
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DarklyDreaming wrote: Does anyone confirm the Haemunculus Coven stratagems that Scotsman told? The rerolling wounds in fight and regain d3 wounds on a monster I mean.
What about all the the Grots and Haemunculus weapons, the ''weapons of torture''? Do they have all the same stats?
Last thing, is the Talos fist flat D3 o Dd3? Cs if its just a d3 damage like a normal fist, the macroscalpel is more or less the same against vehicles...
DarklyDreaming wrote: Does anyone confirm the Haemunculus Coven stratagems that Scotsman told? The rerolling wounds in fight and regain d3 wounds on a monster I mean.
What about all the the Grots and Haemunculus weapons, the ''weapons of torture''? Do they have all the same stats?
Last thing, is the Talos fist flat D3 o Dd3? Cs if its just a d3 damage like a normal fist, the macroscalpel is more or less the same against vehicles...
It's the same as a normal fist. It bumps the talos' strength up to 8 and has an extra AP, it does more damage on average vs T7 and T8 targets as long as the extra AP point matters (i.e. no invuln saves)
That said...yeah, if that chainflail change is true, and it give you 10 attacks... that's a much more compelling reason to swap out a scalpel than "I'm fighting a tank and I need 10% more oomph to kill it"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarklyDreaming wrote: Does anyone confirm the Haemunculus Coven stratagems that Scotsman told? The rerolling wounds in fight and regain d3 wounds on a monster I mean.
What about all the the Grots and Haemunculus weapons, the ''weapons of torture''? Do they have all the same stats?
Last thing, is the Talos fist flat D3 o Dd3? Cs if its just a d3 damage like a normal fist, the macroscalpel is more or less the same against vehicles...
Cronos is down to 65 points, but the spirit probe ability is a 5 point upgrade, so really 70 points. Also it is BS 3+ now. It is still attacks 3 unless I'm missing something. Second gun is a 10 point upgrade. So 80 points max.
Fafnir wrote: Honestly does not seem worth it. Especially since I'll have a Farseer casting doom anyway.
I am kind of in agreement, but I am wary of the fallacy of assuming that if something doesn't stack up to one of the best units in the game at its job, it is unusable crap. There's a lot of reasons why you might want a Cronos over a Farseer, most notably that a farseer is going to mean you need a separate detachment most of the time. Also, the Cronos' buff does not require a psychic test, nor is it only limited to one target. The Torturer's Craft stratagem also somewhat limits the utility of Doom in a coven army, because you can just replicate its effects whenever you want for a couple CP, no test needed.
Even if I didn't run with a Farseer (and I intend on developing the army to reach that at some point), I still wouldn't use the Cronos based on the above appraisal. Maybe if you were running a lot of footslogging coven stuff, but that's still asking a lot when you could just throw another Talos in there.
Fafnir wrote: Even if I didn't run with a Farseer (and I intend on developing the army to reach that at some point), I still wouldn't use the Cronos based on the above appraisal. Maybe if you were running a lot of footslogging coven stuff, but that's still asking a lot when you could just throw another Talos in there.
Honestly, i have 2 Cronos, 5 Talos and i dont feel like playing them lol.
I will tho play some fun Coven lists that will use those 7, but i also have 30 Wracks and 20 Grots, but for tri cult i dont think Cronos re worth it at all.
Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Four per detachment if the detachment has one or more Archons. No way to take them by themselves, and it doesn't appear there is a way for them to use force org slots.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Four per detachment if the detachment has one or more Archons. No way to take them by themselves, and it doesn't appear there is a way for them to use force org slots.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Four per detachment if the detachment has one or more Archons. No way to take them by themselves, and it doesn't appear there is a way for them to use force org slots.
Are they still Characters?
Negative. Though ti seems they got a points drop. And Lhamaeans do mortal wounds on 4+ in CC now.
Here's a video going through the codex entirerly, including points cost
And jesus christ, yeah grots have -2 ap cleavers and 4 wounds now, and they cost only 35 pts now, thats extremely good, take like 5 of them backed up by a prophets of the flesh haemonculus and you have 20 toughness 6 wounds with 4+ (reroll 1's) invul save.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Answering this since I'm currently wading through looking for changes while authoring the BS data file for the codex (previous maintainer vanished)
Court of the Archon works the same as before: if you have no archon, they simply use detachment slots as normal. if you have an archon, they don't take up detachment slots, but you are not limited to four. you could in fact take 30 sslyth from a single archon if your really really wanted to.
So sslyth party vans ahoy?
Before people ask about the BS file: Aim is to release when the codex does as always, some minor information might be missing in V1 simply because there is a ton of it to enter, and a lot of minor changes to catch.
Bonus Round: the list of items that had to be given an index tag, and are still usable with the designer commentary but are no longer in the codex:
Trueborn
Bloodbrides
Demiklaives for incubi
Crucible of Malediction on Haemonculus
Blaster on the Archon
A WoT option for grotesques
Extra Silliness:
Beast units only require one beastmaster now to take any number.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Answering this since I'm currently wading through looking for changes while authoring the BS data file for the codex (previous maintainer vanished)
Court of the Archon works the same as before: if you have no archon, they simply use detachment slots as normal. if you have an archon, they don't take up detachment slots, but you are not limited to four. you could in fact take 30 sslyth from a single archon if your really really wanted to.
So sslyth party vans ahoy?
. . .
Extra Silliness:
Beast units only require one beastmaster now to take any number.
Unfortunately you missed the same rule I did on my first glance at the codex. On page 114, on a box off to the left titled "Matched Play Rules" there are additional rules concerning both beasts and courts that are not listed in the datasheets limiting courts to 4 per detachment that include 1 or more archons, and 3 beasts units per detachment that includes one or more beastmasters. Additionally the wording of the court of the archon and beastmaster rules has changed slightly. It no longer offers any room on whether or not you CAN take these units without taking up force org slots. Now it says they simply do not take up slots if your army is battle-forged.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Answering this since I'm currently wading through looking for changes while authoring the BS data file for the codex (previous maintainer vanished)
Court of the Archon works the same as before: if you have no archon, they simply use detachment slots as normal. if you have an archon, they don't take up detachment slots, but you are not limited to four. you could in fact take 30 sslyth from a single archon if your really really wanted to.
So sslyth party vans ahoy?
Before people ask about the BS file: Aim is to release when the codex does as always, some minor information might be missing in V1 simply because there is a ton of it to enter, and a lot of minor changes to catch.
Bonus Round: the list of items that had to be given an index tag, and are still usable with the designer commentary but are no longer in the codex:
Trueborn
Bloodbrides
Demiklaives for incubi
Crucible of Malediction on Haemonculus
Blaster on the Archon
A WoT option for grotesques
Extra Silliness:
Beast units only require one beastmaster now to take any number.
razorwings notably lost 4 attacks (down to 4) but gained -1 ap on the attacks.
Let me help you out with a few things that might be easy to miss for Battlescribe:
-The Haemonculus can now take an ichor injector IN ADDITION to his other weapons, and it no longer appears on the weapon list that it used to on the index (so Wracks can no longer have ichor injectors)
-The Talos now has two armswaps rather than one. He can exchange one Scalpel for a TL liquifier or an Ichor, and the other Scalpel for a chainflail or a glove.
-The Succubus can now take Wych Cult weaponry, swapping both her weapons for it.
Blackie wrote: It was stated on dakkadakka that grots have become 1pt more expensive, I'd really love a points drop on them as well
Base 1pt more base but the weapons are cheaper, 0 and 3 pts compare to 1 and 6? (I forget what they are now but its more)
So they're basically a few points points cheaper now? And with the new limitations about their wargear what additional tools can they bring?
They can swap their cleavers for liquifiers. No additional tools. One positive note (for grots at least) is that their flesh gauntlets are no longer Poison, which means they don't go down to 4+ against targets that would normally be easier for the S5 grots to wound. its now just a S:user AP0 weapon that does a mortal on a 6 vs non-vehicles. This does make the Flesh Gauntlet a no-go on haemies or acothysts, but nobody was taking it anyway.
net, Grots are 5 points cheaper than index with the mandatory weapon build.
Let me help you out with a few things that might be easy to miss for Battlescribe:
-The Haemonculus can now take an ichor injector IN ADDITION to his other weapons, and it no longer appears on the weapon list that it used to on the index (so Wracks can no longer have ichor injectors)
-The Talos now has two armswaps rather than one. He can exchange one Scalpel for a TL liquifier or an Ichor, and the other Scalpel for a chainflail or a glove.
-The Succubus can now take Wych Cult weaponry, swapping both her weapons for it.
I did get those, they were actually pretty easy to pick out. The real issues are all the tiny minor wording changes.
The only jp wrote: Can the court of the archon models only be taken as the specific court outside of force org slots, or can they be used as cheap units to fill a brigade?
Answering this since I'm currently wading through looking for changes while authoring the BS data file for the codex (previous maintainer vanished)
Court of the Archon works the same as before: if you have no archon, they simply use detachment slots as normal. if you have an archon, they don't take up detachment slots, but you are not limited to four. you could in fact take 30 sslyth from a single archon if your really really wanted to.
So sslyth party vans ahoy?
Before people ask about the BS file: Aim is to release when the codex does as always, some minor information might be missing in V1 simply because there is a ton of it to enter, and a lot of minor changes to catch.
Bonus Round: the list of items that had to be given an index tag, and are still usable with the designer commentary but are no longer in the codex:
Trueborn Bloodbrides Demiklaives for incubi Crucible of Malediction on Haemonculus Blaster on the Archon A WoT option for grotesques
Extra Silliness: Beast units only require one beastmaster now to take any number.
razorwings notably lost 4 attacks (down to 4) but gained -1 ap on the attacks.
Your list is funny (and like 1st round of DE nerf funny), but i thought there was a limitation to Number of beasts you could take? And i thought RWF also were 4+ to hit now? I'll be getting the codex "soon" so i'll know so fun instead of being told things... man i cant wait.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that they put the limitation on the number of beasts/courtesans on Page 114 with the army-wide rules, instead of the rules on the datasheets of the court and beastmasters.
You cannot take 156 razorwings in a detachment (in matched play at least) because there is a maximum of 3 beast units in a detachment and 4 court units in a detachment, per sidebar on page 114.
RWF are indeed 4+ to hit with their 4 attacks. My impression is that they are utter trash in the new 'dex, tbh, the only beast I would consider using is Clawed Fiends, which seem like a solid anti-heavy choice to take in a wych detachment. I guess if you're just taking them as pure chaff they're fine, but like, we have warriors for that at 6ppm.
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vipoid wrote: I like that the Haemonculs can get an Ichor Injector as an extra now.
Yeah, the killiest build for the haemonculus is actually fairly scary. Ichor injector/EC whip, with the +1 to wound trait and Coven of 12, you get a guy who throws 4 attacks that hit on 2s, wound on 3s, AP-3 D2, and 1 attack that hits on 2, wounds on 3 rerollable, AP-2 D1 that crits for D3 mortals on a 5+.
Well, file should be out in a couple hours once the data platform picks it up but may have some text on weapons in index state because of the way the file was structured compared to the standards we use now
Because I know someone will do this, Beast unit/courts restrictions are only enforced if you select gametype: matched
WindstormSCR wrote: Well, file should be out in a couple hours once the data platform picks it up but may have some text on weapons in index state because of the way the file was structured compared to the standards we use now
Because I know someone will do this, Beast unit/courts restrictions are only enforced if you select gametype: matched
WindstormSCR wrote: Well, file should be out in a couple hours once the data platform picks it up but may have some text on weapons in index state because of the way the file was structured compared to the standards we use now
Because I know someone will do this, Beast unit/courts restrictions are only enforced if you select gametype: matched
I'm sure I speak not only for myself when I say thanks a ton for your work! It is appreciated.
Wow, grotesques are really 5 pts cheaper now, 35 each.
Also the grav talons and cluster caltrops are a bit cheaper, 3 points each, and the bomber missiles which are not free but 10 points. The bomber kitted with missiles is now cheaper than the stock index version at 165 points.
A bit disappointed on the talos gauntlet which is not 2x strenght but just +2S AP-3 DamageD3 but also gives a nasty -1 to hit penalty (like p.fists) and it costs 15 points. It doesn't seem that good compared to the 4 points of the macro scalpels (+1S AP-2 damage flat 2) which also grant +1A if you have two. The stock talos is just 103 points, even 5 points cheaper if you give it the splinter pods as ranged weapon. With the coven buffs it looks quite good, I'm looking forward to field all my monsters once again. Maybe not the cronos though, it still looks quite lackluster for its price.
WindstormSCR wrote: Well, file should be out in a couple hours once the data platform picks it up but may have some text on weapons in index state because of the way the file was structured compared to the standards we use now
Because I know someone will do this, Beast unit/courts restrictions are only enforced if you select gametype: matched
Is this for Battlescribe?
Blackie wrote: Maybe not the cronos though, it still looks quite lackluster for its price.
The Cronos is very weird. It seems designed primarily for shooting, but its buffs are melee focused.
Also, in spite of its ranged weapons both being designed to steal/siphon life, that ability only works for its melee attacks. Not only that, but it can only ever restore 1 piddling wound, no matter how many models it manages to kill.
WindstormSCR wrote: Well, file should be out in a couple hours once the data platform picks it up but may have some text on weapons in index state because of the way the file was structured compared to the standards we use now
Because I know someone will do this, Beast unit/courts restrictions are only enforced if you select gametype: matched
Is this for Battlescribe?
Blackie wrote: Maybe not the cronos though, it still looks quite lackluster for its price.
The Cronos is very weird. It seems designed primarily for shooting, but its buffs are melee focused.
Also, in spite of its ranged weapons both being designed to steal/siphon life, that ability only works for its melee attacks. Not only that, but it can only ever restore 1 piddling wound, no matter how many models it manages to kill.
Cronos is melee tho, flamers are anti melee and helps melee units. Sitting with Wrack,s Grots, Talos, etc.. to buff them and get in a few shots while staying out or in CC as you wish.
It's hard to justify 70 points just to give the re-rolls of 1 in close combat to fiendly drukhari units though.
It would have been nice with a rule that allowed him to restore D3 wounds to a friendly unit per turn. Some sort of drukhari doctor
It's not garbage but you really need lots of models within the bubble to make it decent at least. Something like 2-3 close combat oriented squads at least, but I was thinking about a cronos buffing 8-10 grots and 6 talos and eventually a wych unit or incubi to let it join the party.
Something that is really weird about this codex is the HQs wargear options: the archon loses the possibility of bringing a blaster, because in the age of "no model no rules" GW is removing options. But then the succubus can bring the wyches special weapons: why on earth can she have razorflails or hydra gauntlets while the archon can't take a blaster??
Something that is really weird about this codex is the HQs wargear options: the archon loses the possibility of bringing a blaster, because in the age of "no model no rules" GW is removing options. But then the succubus can bring the wyches special weapons: why on earth can she have razorflails or hydra gauntlets while the archon can't take a blaster??
That's a good point. The Archon even has access to a Venom Blade, which he's apparently allowed to freely pinch from Scourges. When I first read that, I foolishly thought he'd be allowed to pinch their wings as well.
Incidentally, there's an Archon on p96 that appears to have an illegal loadout - since he's holding a spear thing (possibly a Scourge's Power Lance) that he can't actually use.
I don't know, GW's policy on conversions makes no sense to me.
Their policy is just weird in general. I understand they'd remove something if they don't have the base body(or it is undefined like the Trueborns/bloodbrides), but removing weapon options that exist within the range is just strange. Blasters exist in several kits, much like the Fusion Gun in the Craftworld range.
Honestly, I was really disappointed that Haemonculi didn't get that rule.
Letting them patch up our monsters mid-battle would have been fluffy, whilst also helping justify including multiples of them.
We only have a stratagem for that: at the cost of a CP one haemonculus can restore D3 previously lost wounds to a grots, talos or cronos. Better than nothing but I also wish it was a free ability and not a stratagem.
So, not exactly tactics related, but relevant in that it might end up leading up to something that is in the near future. Has anyone else noticed that the plastic Archon model (you know, the guy who's really into hugging himself) has been removed from GW's website entirely? Like, not even out of stock, just gone. The only place he exists right now is the 2016 SC kit, which I assume is limited stocks.
Could this mean a new Archon kit is on its way? It's not like the old one was well liked (although to its credit, you can do some decent stuff with it if you're willing to do a lot of conversion work, it's just that the pose is awful). If they did, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see a named character option included.
Eldarsif wrote: So what are people's feelings about Hellions? Winning big or not?
They're not garbage but bikes outperform them. Reavers have +1T, +1W, +4''M, they can advance with a flat 8'', and have AP-1 (1D instead of 2 but the AP is more versatile) and they can also take blasters and grav talons. Grav talons at 3ppm are a must take. Reavers are 19ppm and hellions 14ppm, but the min squad of reavers with 3 dudes has +1W and it's 13 points cheaper than the min squad of 5 hellions.
Fafnir wrote: So, not exactly tactics related, but relevant in that it might end up leading up to something that is in the near future. Has anyone else noticed that the plastic Archon model (you know, the guy who's really into hugging himself) has been removed from GW's website entirely? Like, not even out of stock, just gone. The only place he exists right now is the 2016 SC kit, which I assume is limited stocks.
Could this mean a new Archon kit is on its way? It's not like the old one was well liked (although to its credit, you can do some decent stuff with it if you're willing to do a lot of conversion work, it's just that the pose is awful). If they did, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see a named character option included.
Seems weird they wouldn't release it at the same time as the actual codex.
In terms of getting a new model, I'd happily settle for the 5th edition one in plastic. I thought that one was fantastic.
GW appear to agree, because they've used his image on the front of the last 2 DE codices, rather than an image of the new Archon.
Fafnir wrote: So, not exactly tactics related, but relevant in that it might end up leading up to something that is in the near future. Has anyone else noticed that the plastic Archon model (you know, the guy who's really into hugging himself) has been removed from GW's website entirely? Like, not even out of stock, just gone. The only place he exists right now is the 2016 SC kit, which I assume is limited stocks.
Could this mean a new Archon kit is on its way? It's not like the old one was well liked (although to its credit, you can do some decent stuff with it if you're willing to do a lot of conversion work, it's just that the pose is awful). If they did, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see a named character option included.
Seems weird they wouldn't release it at the same time as the actual codex.
In terms of getting a new model, I'd happily settle for the 5th edition one in plastic. I thought that one was fantastic.
GW appear to agree, because they've used his image on the front of the last 2 DE codices, rather than an image of the new Archon.
It is an ugly model, but i bet its just for re-boxing. I would make me happy if they had the old one again tho.
Fafnir wrote: So, not exactly tactics related, but relevant in that it might end up leading up to something that is in the near future. Has anyone else noticed that the plastic Archon model (you know, the guy who's really into hugging himself) has been removed from GW's website entirely? Like, not even out of stock, just gone. The only place he exists right now is the 2016 SC kit, which I assume is limited stocks.
Could this mean a new Archon kit is on its way? It's not like the old one was well liked (although to its credit, you can do some decent stuff with it if you're willing to do a lot of conversion work, it's just that the pose is awful). If they did, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see a named character option included.
Seems weird they wouldn't release it at the same time as the actual codex.
In terms of getting a new model, I'd happily settle for the 5th edition one in plastic. I thought that one was fantastic.
GW appear to agree, because they've used his image on the front of the last 2 DE codices, rather than an image of the new Archon.
It is an ugly model, but i bet its just for re-boxing. I would make me happy if they had the old one again tho.
Reboxing doesn't normally cause a model to vanish from the store entirely.
Honestly, I was really disappointed that Haemonculi didn't get that rule.
Letting them patch up our monsters mid-battle would have been fluffy, whilst also helping justify including multiples of them.
We only have a stratagem for that: at the cost of a CP one haemonculus can restore D3 previously lost wounds to a grots, talos or cronos. Better than nothing but I also wish it was a free ability and not a stratagem.
On the upside, equivelant stratagems in other codecies usually cost 2CP where ours is 1.
I imagine it's because those equivalent stratagems tend to target creatures that cost more than a Talos.
With how cheap they are, unless you're in dire straits and NEED that Talos to stay alive for one more turn, I'd probably just neglect that stratagem entirely. At T7 3+/4++/6+++, if a one is about to go down, it's probably eaten enough firepower to have done its job already.
As for hellions, I am obsessed with the idea of a maxed squad using the fly over mortal wound stratagem. Because of their larger max unit size you get more from that stratagem with hellions over reavers.
dbhaack wrote: As for hellions, I am obsessed with the idea of a maxed squad using the fly over mortal wound stratagem. Because of their larger max unit size you get more from that stratagem with hellions over reavers.
I think Hellions are interesting - and are theoretically monstrous.
But you lack the movement for a first turn attack (14"+1D6 is unlikely to reach unless they deploy right on the line, and if they see they are facing a big blob of Hellions they probably won't).
This means you are probably going to charge something (with Red Grief 14"+1+3D6 rerolling the charge makes that likely). You will then have to hope you don't get tied up - since you can't fall back and then advance to activate the stratagem.
If your opponent doesn't tie you up in combat they are going to shoot you - and Hellions are probably the best target for small arms in the DE army.
So all in all the odds of being able to use the stratagem with 20 hellions seems pretty remote .
I'd cautiously say that 12 reavers - who can put those mortal wounds onto anything in 26" - are better.
You are likely to make up the mortal wound difference with Grav Talons too when you charge in (assuming Red Grief, which I think is a requirement if you are building for that stratagem.
Hellions are true glasscannons. High damage very fragile, vs some armies they will be devastating! But against others they will just die turn 1 and do nothing.
dbhaack wrote: As for hellions, I am obsessed with the idea of a maxed squad using the fly over mortal wound stratagem. Because of their larger max unit size you get more from that stratagem with hellions over reavers.
I think Hellions are interesting - and are theoretically monstrous.
But you lack the movement for a first turn attack (14"+1D6 is unlikely to reach unless they deploy right on the line, and if they see they are facing a big blob of Hellions they probably won't).
This means you are probably going to charge something (with Red Grief 14"+1+3D6 rerolling the charge makes that likely). You will then have to hope you don't get tied up - since you can't fall back and then advance to activate the stratagem.
If your opponent doesn't tie you up in combat they are going to shoot you - and Hellions are probably the best target for small arms in the DE army.
So all in all the odds of being able to use the stratagem with 20 hellions seems pretty remote .
I'd cautiously say that 12 reavers - who can put those mortal wounds onto anything in 26" - are better.
You are likely to make up the mortal wound difference with Grav Talons too when you charge in (assuming Red Grief, which I think is a requirement if you are building for that stratagem.
See, my thoughts were like this.
Take both reavers and hellions, large squads, have the reavers fly over the chaff (5 man scout squads and such) and do the mortal wounds while blasting a target, the opponent has to deal with them in their face. Then the hellions hit the chaff, getting the 2+ movement drugs because their boards have a NOS intake valve that they put cocaine stolen from doom rider in. Then after your opponent kills the reavers because they are there the hellions should be free to move up and over a juicy target with their large squad, maybe use the stratagem to double their bonus to 4+" move. While all these shenanigans are going on your real threat (warriors, wytches, talos, what ever) is moving in for the kill.
I mean, everything is so cheap it seems, take multiples of them and be happy.
Aah I worked today, couldn't get the codex. But yeah everything is so cheap points-wise it won't be a problem having these blobs of Reavers/Hellions while maintaining a bunch of other stuff. it's 280 pts for 20 Hellions right ? There's more than Reavers and Hellions that can go head first into the opponent's lines, you should be able to advance more stuff to make target priority a dilemma for your opponent.
Aaranis wrote: Aah I worked today, couldn't get the codex. But yeah everything is so cheap points-wise it won't be a problem having these blobs of Reavers/Hellions while maintaining a bunch of other stuff. it's 280 pts for 20 Hellions right ? There's more than Reavers and Hellions that can go head first into the opponent's lines, you should be able to advance more stuff to make target priority a dilemma for your opponent.
Yeah, especially if you play cheaky and drop 2 squads of 3 talos in their face from there webway. What are you going to shoot at? The hellions that are a turn a way from being a threat, the reavers that are almost a threat, the talos that is a threat, or the 4 ravagers sitting back and blasting your tanks?
You can't deep strike a Talos. Grotesques would be an option, though. However, Talos/Grots/Ravagers vs Hellions/Reavers doesn't actually present much of a targeting priority dilemma. You shoot the big things with your big guns and the little things with your little guns.
I don't really see Hellions working out ever. They shoot terribly and they're pretty bad in CC against anything other than Primaris marines. They're made of paper and are only fairly fast. Even with +1A drugs, equal points in Guard Infantry handily beat them in CC (it's not close) and they only barely beat tactical Marines (ignoring the bolt pistols). Reavers are a no-brainer upgrade for 5 points.
I'm a complete Drukhari noob really, so my opinions aren't to be taken as valuable, but boy do I like this new codex! Even leaving aside everything else, my 50PL Drukhari force now costs 39PL. I get an extra 11PL worth of stuff to slot in.
Raiders are the same, 14" yes the raiders and your wyches can advance and charge.
Remember if you charge the raider with things inside you most likely will be surrounded and killed off everything.
Tho it is very very easy to get your full army turn 2 charges now, you can even have an army with almost all units turn 1 charge if you built it that way.
I do notb think they are so easy to surounder. They are to be placed within 3", not whole within. yWith 25" or 32" there are often gaps unless they have many layers of models. You can do it with 40" bases, but these units are hard to come by. Perhaps bikes can do it. I feel confident they will survive.
If the opponent can suround it just charge it in with some other units like bikes.
I am planing one unit of kabal, and one fast attack unit of wytches.
ballzonya wrote: Thinking of joining the ranks, are two starter sets and a codex a good buy? Or skip the starters or just buy one?
I just joined and bought the two starters, I think they are great since they give a good start in both kabal and wyches factions (HQ, troops, transports plus a fast attack choice), the units are good and the models look awesome.
My problem is what would be best next since almost everything looks good (on paper at least)
ballzonya wrote: Thinking of joining the ranks, are two starter sets and a codex a good buy? Or skip the starters or just buy one?
Depends on whether you want to run Wyches or not.
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feltmonkey wrote: I'm a complete Drukhari noob really, so my opinions aren't to be taken as valuable, but boy do I like this new codex! Even leaving aside everything else, my 50PL Drukhari force now costs 39PL. I get an extra 11PL worth of stuff to slot in.
Yeah, the points drops have been amazing, I'm running a 2K list tomorrow that would have been 2600pts in the index. Most of that saving ahs come from the bikes (a full 12 bike units is about 200pts cheaper now!), transports and Talos.
I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.
mmimzie wrote: I feel like the reapers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.
Reaper? Or Reavers? The Reaper is a 150pt Tank that is D6 Lance Shots
mmimzie wrote: I feel like the reapers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.
Reaper? Or Reavers? The Reaper is a 150pt Tank that is D6 Lance Shots
yeah reavers lol. My phone and i tend to have disagreement on what i'm trying to say..... Worse than that my fingers and my brain also have disagreements lol.
Primark G wrote: I think the best armies will be mostly all shooting and highly mobile.
Ravager, Razorwing and Voidraven are all undercosted. Raider too.
At the moment I’m thinking about Farseer, Spiritseers, 3 mini squads of Reapers, two Serpents, 3x Rangers, and then one Archon and 3 Ravagers, 3 Razorwing Jets and 2 Voidravens.
The Reapers are mainly for the Tempest Launchers but if they’re hit too hard in the FAQ then just more Drukhari vehicles.
Someone in a spam meta will no doubt play 9 or so dissie Ravagers. 125 points is criminally underpriced for what it can do. Reroll 1’s to hit and wound, inv save, fly... its crazy.
Niiai wrote: I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.
I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.
Yeah, the first kabal that I'm going to try out is the +6 range one. Then the flayed skull, that also seems very good: +3M on flying things, re-roll of 1s for rapid fire and ignores cover, that kabal also has a stratagem that cancels the -1 to hit on flyers which can be very useful. Black heart has a good relic and stratagem, I agree, but for the trait I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.
About the archon model, now that we're encouraged to take more than a single archon a new kit with multiple pose would be amazing. I'd just be ok with the old archon, haemy and succubus available again on the site even for a limited period of time. Damn, I can't stand having two identical models in the army
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mmimzie wrote: I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.
Reavers are good now, they benefit from power from pain and the drug. With the appropriate cult bonus (advance and charge plus re-roll charges) they can even charge turn 1. Eldar bikes work differently, they're a shooting platform. And they're units from another army
Blackie wrote: I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.
You don't need to have all three. So long as you have an Archon as your warlord, you can use the stratagem. Which means you can easily dip into a small coven detachment in order for a quick and easy 0-2 free command points. I've no intention of using any cult units, so that's how I'll be using it. Sure, it won't be as efficient as getting that third warlord trait in, but it costs absolutely nothing.
Niiai wrote: I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.
I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.
Yeah, the first kabal that I'm going to try out is the +6 range one. Then the flayed skull, that also seems very good: +3M on flying things, re-roll of 1s for rapid fire and ignores cover, that kabal also has a stratagem that cancels the -1 to hit on flyers which can be very useful. Black heart has a good relic and stratagem, I agree, but for the trait I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.
About the archon model, now that we're encouraged to take more than a single archon a new kit with multiple pose would be amazing. I'd just be ok with the old archon, haemy and succubus available again on the site even for a limited period of time. Damn, I can't stand having two identical models in the army
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mmimzie wrote: I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.
Reavers are good now, they benefit from power from pain and the drug. With the appropriate cult bonus (advance and charge plus re-roll charges) they can even charge turn 1. Eldar bikes work differently, they're a shooting platform. And they're units from another army
Sure, but I make the comparison because i tried similar tactics when I started out with the new craftworld codex as wind riders can very reasonable make a turn 1 charge in saim-hann. They even do better damage than the reavers end up putting out in early turns. So, again different army is super relavent, but when i think of how useful they could be... I feel like they are mostly disappointing.
I guess maybe the best bet is to take the toughness drug on a big squad and charge as much stuff as you can to reduce enemy shooting, but I don't know... seems they are abit frail.
Blackie wrote: I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.
You don't need to have all three. So long as you have an Archon as your warlord, you can use the stratagem. Which means you can easily dip into a small coven detachment in order for a quick and easy 0-2 free command points. I've no intention of using any cult units, so that's how I'll be using it. Sure, it won't be as efficient as getting that third warlord trait in, but it costs absolutely nothing.
An outrider detachment with a cheap succubus, two min squads of reavers and large squad of jetbikes could be a nice solution IMHO, that's what I'm looking for if I want all the three types of HQs. The bikes that can assault turn 1 are too tempting Coven spearhead with talos since I don't own any wracks and kabal battallion.
mmimzie wrote: Sure, but I make the comparison because i tried similar tactics when I started out with the new craftworld codex as wind riders can very reasonable make a turn 1 charge in saim-hann. They even do better damage than the reavers end up putting out in early turns. So, again different army is super relavent, but when i think of how useful they could be... I feel like they are mostly disappointing.
I guess maybe the best bet is to take the toughness drug on a big squad and charge as much stuff as you can to reduce enemy shooting, but I don't know... seems they are abit frail.
Reavers with the +1 attack drug will do 3 S4 AP1 attacks. They can move 18", advance another 8" and then charge. So you have a threat range of 29"-39". With a reroll you would expect to make 36". So you can have your pick of targets unless they are literally bubblewrapped to the point where you can't make contact. Grav Talons will chuck out mortal wounds on a 4+ - so on average 2 in a max squad.
Without Red Grief you can have another attack and still get an average threat range of 18"+1"+2D6, so 26". So first turn charges against something are still likely. Cursed blade is unfortunately useless because of bladevanes.
By contrast aren't Windriders just 1 S3 attack each in melee?
Do you mean Shining Spears? They are generally considered to be quite good (incredibly so in Ynnari lists.)
Primark G wrote: I think the best armies will be mostly all shooting and highly mobile.
Back in 5th edition shooting was the way to go. But uou could not du pure shooting, you needed some element vs big blobs of units. That could be a baron beastmaster blob, 2 units of reavers ot anything else
I think something similar is true in 8th edition. Close combat is where you usually lay down a bunch of wounds. What this takes the form of we will see.
I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.
I like Black Heart as a Rent-a-Car battalion detachment. All the mercenaries go in there to buy as many transports as I need. About 2/3 of my list, however, is actually Wych cult, but literally all the transports in the army are bought in the Black Heart detachment for that 6+++ raider and venom goodness.
I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.
They lack ranged anti tank though. Ravagers and flyers have the <Kabal> keyword and you can't include them without breaking the obsession rule. At least the flyers have the <Wych cult> keyword.
A mono haemonculi list with only coven stuff is going to struggle, like any other "melee only" army, but you can spam scourges without breaking the obsession rule to get some effective anti tank.
A spearhead with an archon and three ravagers should work very well in a themed oriented list, it's not even 500 points. The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari
Blackie wrote: The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari
If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?
How much point is a wrack, 9 points? For 600 points and some haemoncaly change you can have 60 T5 4++ 6+++ wounds in 1 wound compartments. I think many armies will have a hard time shooting them away. The grotesques would be T6 and 4++ 6+++ for 35 points, you would use these for offense.
It sounds rather robust in my ears.
You can of course blend in dakrlight as needed in the flying men or just airplaines.
On another note, regarding my previus statement on 5th edition. I know 5th edition had 4++ cover saves so melee was needed to pry them out of cover, but I stil think some melee element is needed in an shooting list.
Blackie wrote: The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari
If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?
The model mostly.
But also the fact that the succubus and lelith are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue and I also adore the coven stuff.
I don't hate the archon, and I don't even dislike him, I just love the other HQs way more, even rulewise.
Blackie wrote: The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari
If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?
The model mostly.
But also the fact that the succubus and lelith are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue and I also adore the coven stuff.
I don't hate the archon, and I don't even dislike him, I just love the other HQs way more, even rulewise.
Ah, I see.
I got around the model problem by using an albino Mandrake as my Archon.
I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.
They lack ranged anti tank though. Ravagers and flyers have the <Kabal> keyword and you can't include them without breaking the obsession rule. At least the flyers have the <Wych cult> keyword.
A mono haemonculi list with only coven stuff is going to struggle, like any other "melee only" army, but you can spam scourges without breaking the obsession rule to get some effective anti tank.
A spearhead with an archon and three ravagers should work very well in a themed oriented list, it's not even 500 points. The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari
I mean, you could technically bring Drazhar as the HQ in a spearhead detachment with Ravagers and still have Kabal obsessions without an Archon.
Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.
Niiai wrote: Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.
I think it could work but I am not sure wracks do enough damage.
It might be strange to think about - but compare say 10 kabalites in a raider to say 15 wracks, as its about the same points.
I don't think the wracks are dramatically tougher - and they are considerably more limited. Being slower, having no (or negligible) shooting and an okay but not exceptional close combat ability.
The argument against this is that the raider is providing your opponents heavy guns with something worth shooting at and it might die to a few lucky lascannon or equivalent shots. (At 8-9 points per wound, 5++, potentially 6+++ its actually pretty tough.)
But then unless you were planning to have a Wrack tide, and a skewed list that makes heavy weapons a waste of points (see Ork lists) there will be something else for their heavy guns to target. Be it ravagers, or aircraft or Talos or whatever.
I think I'd minimise points in Wracks and focus on Grots as the core instead. They are more vulnerable to multi-wound weapons, but still pretty tough and do a lot more damage in close combat.
Niiai wrote: I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.
I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.
Actually the general bonus is probably also the best. Having a 6+++ shrug on all the vehicles is better IMO then rerolling ones for rapid fire weapons or a bonus to movement nobody needs, or rerolling 1's on poison or the extra range on an insanely fast army. DE have and always will have a durability problem, that's the only obsession in the kabal traits that helps with that.
I feel like people are just parroting the same line about it being bad because initially everyone was considering it's bonus on infantry and forgot about the vehicles and because its a bit boring. BTW ravagers have a 36" range and move 14, you already have a 50" threat range meaning you can already range band las canons and missile launchers, the extra range is never a bad thing, but since it isn't needed I\d take the extra durability any day.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another factor to consider in regard to hellions, is that the evicerating fly by happens in the movement phase meaning you can roll 20 dice on a unit that is there to prevent your units from deep striking in turn 1. So clear them out on your way to work with hellions lol, then drop those units from reserve in that bloody spot where scouts used to be
Agreed with the man above. Black Heart is a nobrainer auto take. Competitive Drukhari will be crazy vehicle spams and the natural inv saves combined with the FNP, fly rule, speed and low points cost are what make them so good.
Niiai wrote: Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.
I think it could work but I am not sure wracks do enough damage.
It might be strange to think about - but compare say 10 kabalites in a raider to say 15 wracks, as its about the same points.
I don't think the wracks are dramatically tougher - and they are considerably more limited. Being slower, having no (or negligible) shooting and an okay but not exceptional close combat ability.
The argument against this is that the raider is providing your opponents heavy guns with something worth shooting at and it might die to a few lucky lascannon or equivalent shots. (At 8-9 points per wound, 5++, potentially 6+++ its actually pretty tough.)
But then unless you were planning to have a Wrack tide, and a skewed list that makes heavy weapons a waste of points (see Ork lists) there will be something else for their heavy guns to target. Be it ravagers, or aircraft or Talos or whatever.
I think I'd minimise points in Wracks and focus on Grots as the core instead. They are more vulnerable to multi-wound weapons, but still pretty tough and do a lot more damage in close combat.
Just to play devils advocate here, wracks on foot can take up WAY more real estate and don't forget 15 wracks are potentially 15 obsec bodies for scoring while a raider with 10 kabs inside is 1 model lacking obsec.
I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.
Wracks seem hard to justify unless you're already wanting a Haemonculus and they can be near him at all times. They're reasonably durable, but without T5 they're still less durable than Guardsmen vs bolters. And I'm assuming they have a 4++ since the other traits are so much worse. Consider that T4 Wracks are only 19% more durable than Warriors per point vs bolters. Meanwhile they hit less hard than Warriors even on a per model basis, and they have to be in CC to do any damage at all without expensive special weapons. It seems like if you want a sticky obsec force you should probably just take Warriors, since they're only a little less durable vs small arms and will do a lot more damage.
Now, T5 helps them a lot vs bolters. Now they're 78% more durable than Warriors vs bolters and even 42% more durable than Guardsmen. Of course, now you have a 70 point Haemonculus babysitting them, and if all he's doing is buffing Wracks you probably need ~300 points of Wracks to make that worthwhile. And S4 is the best-case scenario for them -- T5 doesn't help nearly as much against higher strengths.
So they're pretty durable, and can be made extremely durable, but that's all they do. Then I think the question is: can you design a list to take advantage of their durability. Guard do this by bringing a lot of artillery and using durable Infantry screens. It's not clear to me that the same thing would work that well for Dark Eldar. Your obvious artillery unit is the Ravager, but it'll have to move closer, and anyway since it has Fly and can move 14" and fire at full effect it's not nearly as worried about enemies getting close. It's possible that a Wrack screen for a bunch of Dark Reapers makes sense, but I feel like you still probably do better with Warriors.
Edit: I'd also agree with a couple other people that Black Heart is the way to go on everything other than Warriors on foot. And note that you can mix-and-match Obsessions for units and the transports they're in. Your Venom can be Black Heart for a 6++ while the Warriors inside can get the full benefit of any of the other 3. So for example you could take a Black Heart Spearhead with an Archon, 3 Ravagers, and 4 Venoms, and then use those Venoms with your other units.
AnFéasógMór wrote: I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.
I'm of the same opinion, it's like the Mars dogma for AdMech, there's the best HQ and best stratagem in there, but in exchange the dogma is not the best (the best being, in my opinion, Stygies' -1 to hit). It's balancing.
But I'd rather have them make it Drukhari-wide so that you don't ALWAYS see the same army build every game.
AnFéasógMór wrote: I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.
I think its good, for a few reasons
1) Your vehicles get a 6+++, this is very strong when you have 9+ vehicles, if your 7 of your vehicles are Raiders/Ravagers in your Spearhead detachment (See below), that is 76 wounds.
1/6 of 76 dice rolls are 12.6, that is literally a full vehicle left alive or multi-vehicles no taking damage over a few turns.
2) You can take Black Heart vehicles for your other units (See below) to give all your shooting units transports a 6+++
3) Agents of Vect and WL trait to get more CP's
4) Relic for BH to gain re-rolls for all your Vehicles
Spoiler:
Spearhead Black Heart +1CP 1122ptspts
Archon Venom Blade - Relic Re-roll 1's for wounds
Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL
If you see what i mean in the list, you can have 5 Ravagers and 5 Raiders with 6+++ and Re-roll 1's to Hit and wound and not counting the Warriors. And you still have over 300pts to add more.
But you have to include at least one choice of units for each Black Heart vehicle, and that in the same detachment, right ? So if you want to keep your Obsessions, you have to have 1 Black Heart unit for each Black Heart transport you pick. Your list works because of the Ravagers but not everyone owns 5 Ravagers.
AnFéasógMór wrote: I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.
I think its good, for a few reasons
1) Your vehicles get a 6+++, this is very strong when you have 9+ vehicles, if your 7 of your vehicles are Raiders/Ravagers in your Spearhead detachment (See below), that is 76 wounds.
1/6 of 76 dice rolls are 12.6, that is literally a full vehicle left alive or multi-vehicles no taking damage over a few turns.
2) You can take Black Heart vehicles for your other units (See below) to give all your shooting units transports a 6+++
3) Agents of Vect and WL trait to get more CP's
4) Relic for BH to gain re-rolls for all your Vehicles
Spoiler:
Spearhead Black Heart +1CP 1122ptspts
Archon Venom Blade - Relic Re-roll 1's for wounds
Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Ravager DC Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL Raider DL
If you see what i mean in the list, you can have 5 Ravagers and 5 Raiders with 6+++ and Re-roll 1's to Hit and wound and not counting the Warriors. And you still have over 300pts to add more.
I don't disagree with any of that, it's more just the point that Black Heart really only conveys a bonus to the Vehicles. It's not a bad bonus at all, though. And yeah, that was also one of my first thoughts, like "hey, I can put my wracks and wyches in BH raiders"
Also, my one comment on that list is that with 300 points left, it seems like it might be better to take one more HQ and break that battalion down into three Patrols, end up with one more CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaranis wrote: But you have to include at least one choice of units for each Black Heart vehicle, and that in the same detachment, right ? So if you want to keep your Obsessions, you have to have 1 Black Heart unit for each Black Heart transport you pick. Your list works because of the Ravagers but not everyone owns 5 Ravagers.
True, but if you do, it's hilarious, because one of my favorite things about 8th is that they still haven't FAQed the fact that you can take a transport for your vehicles.
I was playing an Outrider of Reavers, 57x3 + 54 Succubus is 225 pointsthat still leaves 100pts, i would get a vehicle, and a wych unit or a unit of Scourges etc... Can do Vanguard with Archon and 3 Mandrakes for 312pts.
I am not gonne play tide of wracks, the models I have is in other things. But somebody can probably try it out and be fine with it. If some one tryes, please report back.
I also like the +6 range kabal. The 36" ranged weapons become 42". The opponents long ranged weapons are often 48" but less mobile then our dark eldar boats. Use your 42" range and superior mobilaty to take out their weapons on one side, they try to scrable to get their weapons into position. Loose some boats, reposition and do it again. Eventually you will come out on top.
There are some holes in the plan. The imperial guard range 72" battlecannon comes to mind. But I think that can give black heart a runn for their money in the right composition.
Getting an extra hit on 6 on poison is not that impressive. Likevice the 3+ in movement is not that cool. Probably best suitet if you some how do melee kabal (although that sounds like a terrible idea.)
If anybody have som idea on the different wytches I would like it. Personally I like the charge after advancing, but I can be biased after playing genestealers.
The +6 range doesn't add that much to ravagers true, but if you want multiple units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster in each squad is a nice bonus. Blaster archons will benefit from the obsession as well.
I actually think the +6 ads very much to the ravagers. If you have superior firepower you can just dance on the edge on of your weapon range, and a long as you destroy everything that can threaten them back there are a lot of army lists you can just dance about keeping yourself out of range of his long ranged guns.
As mentioned early imperial guard 72" battle cannon and some other weapons do present a problem. But superb range combined with superior firepor can mean you can out possition your opponent out of the game.
If your opponent deploys all his 48" lascannons and rocket launchers in a group as a form of buddy system, just stay away from them and shoot everything else the first 2 turns before you move in to the hornets nest.
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
So i'm having a weird time wrapping my head around making an actually useful second HQ for a Kabal force. With how cheap Kabalites are, 4+ squads of them are definitely on the cards but either through patrols or battalions that means a second HQ choice. With your first Archon being your natural warlord, that will eat up your trait and relic and come out rather effective, but a second Archon ends up feeling very limited and without any purpose for the points it costs.
My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off. That said, if someone has come up with a good use for a second Archon i'm all ears.
As an aside and related question, the re-roll from the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait states that it is once per battle "for your warlord".... since multiple units can have Warlord traits, does that mean it can be used on anyone with a trait? Just for the Archon? Or just for the Haemonculus who has the warlord trait? It's a bit unclear but I suspect it's just for your actual Armies warlord.
orkswubwub wrote: So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.
orkswubwub wrote: So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.
It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.
Lithanial wrote: So i'm having a weird time wrapping my head around making an actually useful second HQ for a Kabal force. With how cheap Kabalites are, 4+ squads of them are definitely on the cards but either through patrols or battalions that means a second HQ choice. With your first Archon being your natural warlord, that will eat up your trait and relic and come out rather effective, but a second Archon ends up feeling very limited and without any purpose for the points it costs.
Yeah, it's a bit depressing that our HQs really seem to need artefacts and Warlord Traits to be effective.
My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off.
This seems like a bad idea, honestly. The Haemonculus won't be able to buff anything in your army, so you'll just end up with a different mediocre HQ choice, except you'll now be trading an army-wide buff for it.
Lithanial wrote: That said, if someone has come up with a good use for a second Archon i'm all ears.
Well, you could make a suicide-squad using second Archon and either 4 Medusae or 4 Lhamaeans. If the former disembark with the Archon, they should average 14 S4 AP-2 hits. The latter should average 7 hits and 3-4 Mortal Wounds (in addition to any other damage).
As an aside and related question, the re-roll from the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait states that it is once per battle "for your warlord".... since multiple units can have Warlord traits, does that mean it can be used on anyone with a trait? Just for the Archon? Or just for the Haemonculus who has the warlord trait? It's a bit unclear but I suspect it's just for your actual Armies warlord.
I *think* the Haemonculus or your Archon could use it, but not any other pseudo-Warlords you might have.
The specific cult Strife stratagem that allows to fight twice if the wych unit destroys something looks very cool. Even without the full blob, just 10 wyches that were in a raider (or a blob of 20 that took a few casualties) have 51 attacks with Adrenalight plus a few other ones depending on which special weapon you give them. Hitting on 2s in turn 3 and after, re-rolling 1s if there's a succubus nearby. Declare a multicharge, destroy one unit, and then unleash once again all the attacks towards something else. It costs 3 CPs but I'm looking forward to try it.
Blackie wrote: The specific cult Strife stratagem that allows to fight twice if the wych unit destroys something looks very cool. Even without the full blob, just 10 wyches that were in a raider (or a blob of 20 that took a few casualties) have 51 attacks with Adrenalight plus a few other ones depending on which special weapon you give them. Hitting on 2s in turn 3 and after, re-rolling 1s if there's a succubus nearby. Declare a multicharge, destroy one unit, and then unleash once again all the attacks towards something else. It costs 3 CPs but I'm looking forward to try it.
3CP yes, but just based on some quick mental math, say at 2000 pts, you and your opponent both average 8 CP, you run Diabolical Soothsayer on a Haemi for an average of two CP extra. So, 18 CP between your opponent and you, earning a CP on 6+ with Labyrinthine Cunning, so on average earning 3-4 extra CP per game (when you include CPs potentially earned on the CPs earned from the originals). You'd be averaging something like 14 CP to spend per game, which makes 3 CP seem a lot less onerous.
Amishprn86 wrote: I only play Reavers for Wych so its always Strife.
Why Strife and not Red Grief?
Im sorry, i meant Grief, i just got it mixed up
Ah, okay. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a good Strife biker strategy I hadn't seen. Not that +1 attack bikers would be terrible in any respect.
Lithanial wrote: My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off.
This seems like a bad idea, honestly. The Haemonculus won't be able to buff anything in your army, so you'll just end up with a different mediocre HQ choice, except you'll now be trading an army-wide buff for it.
For the full picture, if you splash a Haemonculus or Succubus in the battalion, rather than taking another Archon, you would 100% take more than just that; especially when you avoid a further tax by not being hit with the compulsory inclusion of a Wych/Wrack unit. You could instead just jump straight to including Reavers/Grotesques/Talos etc so you would have much greater flexibility in the design of your army.
It does of course require giving up your obsessions. But if you are having to spend 70+ points on an Archon that you don't need and then 40+ points on a troop unit you may not want, there is a case to say that having the right army comp is better than the small bonuses obsessions give. Especially if you then have to go about investing even more points into those compulsory units that you may not want, just to make them semi-useful.
I'm sure there is a break-off point in army size where the obsessions are unquestionably worth it (Probably around about the point a second Archon bubble would be useful). However the smaller the size of your Drukhari force, the less benefit it gives and the steeper swallowing that unit tax will feel.
You're basically never going to want to bring any non-HQ Cult or Coven units without an Obsession. Coven units get upgraded to a 4++, which is a 33% improvement in durability vs everything other than mortal wounds. Cult units get something like a 33% to 50% offense buff or else the ability to advance and charge. A Haemonculus to fill an HQ slot is fine, since he doesn't benefit much anyway, but unless these factions' main units are ridiculously overpowered with Obsessions they're going to be pretty bad without them.
orkswubwub wrote: So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.
Thanks for the clarification! Good to know - agree I don't find anything in the rules that disagrees with this.
For the full picture, if you splash a Haemonculus or Succubus in the battalion, rather than taking another Archon, you would 100% take more than just that; especially when you avoid a further tax by not being hit with the compulsory inclusion of a Wych/Wrack unit. You could instead just jump straight to including Reavers/Grotesques/Talos etc so you would have much greater flexibility in the design of your army.
I get that, but you're basically getting gimped versions of those units. Prophets of Flesh Grotesques have a 4++ save, whilst yours only have a 5++ save. Flayed Skull Warriors and their Venoms reroll 1s to hit with their Splinter Rifles and Splinter Cannons and ignore cover with them. And their Venoms have +3" movement. Yours get none of those. Red Grief Reavers can charge on turn 1. Yours can't.
I'm sure there is a break-off point in army size where the obsessions are unquestionably worth it (Probably around about the point a second Archon bubble would be useful). However the smaller the size of your Drukhari force, the less benefit it gives and the steeper swallowing that unit tax will feel.
To be quite honest, I think you're better off with Obsessions even at low points (though you could consider using a Vanguard or Outrider to have just 1 HQ in a very low point game).
Firstly because if you're using a Battalion then you're forced to take a second HQ anyway, so you're really not saving on points. Second because either you won't be able to afford much in the way of units for the second HQ to buff (hence, you might as well have just taken the surplus Archon) or else you can afford plenty of units (in which case the lack of Obsessions will be felt far more than the HQ tax).
Believe me, I don't like the HQ tax any more than you do. But it seems you're losing more than you're gaining by trying to beat it.
orkswubwub wrote: So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.
It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.
what page of the codex says that?
Do you need one black heart unit or an entire detachment?
There are similar situations in other armies. For example, some competitive players field one detachment of 100% alaitoc units, then a ynnari detachment with a single ulthwe guardian unit. They can use ulthwe's Discipline of the Black Guardians stratagem despite not having a 100% ulthwe detachment.
vipoid wrote: Believe me, I don't like the HQ tax any more than you do. But it seems you're losing more than you're gaining by trying to beat it.
It all depends on the planned army composition I think. Take this is an example: "While maximising command points, I want 4 Kabalite squads backed up by 2 Talos."
---
Option 1 - with obsessions
2x Patrol with Archon and 2x Kabalite Squad
1x Patrol with Haemonculus, 1x Squad of Wracks, 2x Talos
Option 2 is down a command point compared to Option 1, but it's highly likely you would need to spend that extra one tooling up the second Archon. It's just a lot leaner to build a list if you ignore the obsessions, accepting that yes you end up with slightly weaker individual unit capability as a result and that's the price you need to pay.
Hope that illustrates what's niggling me anyway. Going to go away and think on this one a bit.
I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.
orkswubwub wrote: So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?
You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.
It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.
what page of the codex says that?
Do you need one black heart unit or an entire detachment?
There are similar situations in other armies. For example, some competitive players field one detachment of 100% alaitoc units, then a ynnari detachment with a single ulthwe guardian unit. They can use ulthwe's Discipline of the Black Guardians stratagem despite not having a 100% ulthwe detachment.
Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.
Fafnir wrote: I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.
I absolutely agree. To be honest, I'd argue that our HQs still number amongst the worst in the game. Yes, they can be good with artefacts and warlord traits. But with the number of HQs you need to include just for the army to function, expecting them all to have artefacts and warlord traits is unreasonable and frequently impossible.
Don't get me wrong - I think we have some really great artefacts and warlord traits. But I don't HQs that are completely reliant on them to be worth their cost.
Without wishing to retread old ground, I think mobility really is a problem. And it is compounded with another problem, which is that there are so few models our HQs actually support. If anything, our book is a shining example of anti-synergy.
- Drazhar can't work with anything that isn't Incubi (which might not be so bad if he wasn't 1/6th of our HQs and also the only HQ we have that can be taken in any subfaction. A more universal HQ would have been more appreciated, I think.)
- Archons can't work with anything except Kabal. So no buffing Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques, Wracks, Beasts or such.
- Also, whilst Archons can buff the Court, the Court's own ability makes the Archon's aura completely redundant.
- Haemonculi can't buff anything that isn't Cult. So no having durable Kabalite Warriors, Wyches, Beasts or such.
- Succubi can't buff Incubi, Wracks, or even Beasts.
So our HQs are already pretty limited in what they can buff. But then you get back to the problem of mobility:
- Succubi can buff Reavers and Hellions . . . except they're not fast enough to keep pace with them.
- Archons can buff Kabalites, but not when they're embarked on a transport together.
- The Court of the Archon can benefit from a nearby Archon . . . unless they're embarked on the same transport.
Why do DE transports appear to inhibit their abilities? I thought they were supposed to excel in fighting from atop them.
Put simply, there are just so few units that our HQs can actually buff in any meaningful way. The Haemonculus is probably the best off, but even then you basically have to eschew any transports and be content to just waddle across the field.
It seems like aura abilities - especially for the Archon and Court - really weren't the best idea. Not when they refused to allow any exceptions for open-topped transports.
Also, it seems we're in dire need of some demi-HQs. Could we not have had the option of a ~40pt Dracon instead of the Archon? Or a ~40pt Haemonculus (with the 70pt one being upgraded to Ancient Haemonculus)?
It's a real shame because I like a lot of things in this book, but IMO the HQ section really lets it down.
Niiai wrote:What are good deep strike deniers? I do not hve the codex yet.
Is it the 5 man warrior squad, the 10 man dark lance squad or some form of beast?
Warriors are even cheaper now, just use them (Black heart) might be best for this only b.c they can re-roll advances right away if you need to run them and no one DS's against you or far away
Fafnir wrote:I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.
Yeah, i think everyone is in an agreement that the DEHQ's are the worst, especially since we only have 1 Archon HQ, and 2 of each of the others, then you have 1 General
So our HQs are already pretty limited in what they can buff. But then you get back to the problem of mobility:
- Succubi can buff Reavers and Hellions . . . except they're not fast enough to keep pace with them.
- Archons can buff Kabalites, but not when they're embarked on a transport together.
- The Court of the Archon can benefit from a nearby Archon . . . unless they're embarked on the same transport.
Why do DE transports appear to inhibit their abilities? I thought they were supposed to excel in fighting from atop them.
I don't necessarily agree with all of the things you list, but these three I'm with you 100% Like, Succubi should be able to take a skyboard or bike, just like most other factions HQs have non-"vehicle" vehicle options (I mean, a lot of them were Hellions and Reavers before they were wyches), or else have some sort of rule that lets them tag along with those units, matching the fluff of them leaping from skyboard to bike to ground and back, or at the very least, have and Arena Champion or Helliarch HQ that can provide bonuses to those units. And it would have been so simple to give Drukhari vehicles a rule that let auras work with them (and also, to give at least Venoms a 6 man capacity, like the nearly identical Starweaver, if not give Raiders an 11 or 12 man capacity)
10 vanilla Kabalites in a Raider went from 175 to 135 pts (without counting the Raider's weapons). I think it's sad that we have to take Black Heart to enjoy Agents of Vect, it's like Mars for Cawl and Wrath of Mars for AdMech.
