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Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 19:38:14


Post by: BaronIveagh


Protests in Gaza have sparked an armed response from the IDF unsurprisingly.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43603199

Protesters threw rocks at the barrier fence with Gaza. Israel responded per usual with tanks firing on protesters in other countries. Over a thousand were injured, with only 16 fatalities (thus far), surprisingly.


You know, frankly, if there was a nation who's diplomats should be sent home, it's Israel.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 20:01:44


Post by: Disciple of Fate


This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 20:07:29


Post by: Frazzled


Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 21:06:07


Post by: Mr. Burning


Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


Excessive elsewhere. par for the course in this region of the world.

Israel will mount operations against Hamas and I cant say i'll be too disappointed.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 21:27:23


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.


Yes, in much the way that Jews getting loose from the ghetto might have caused horror everywhere. It was good the Nazis stopped them before it could happen.

Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.

In fact, the IDF has killed more American civilians than all Palestinian organizations put together.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 21:40:15


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.


Most of them seem to be unarmed as evidenced that they're just throwing rocks. In plenty of European countries that's your standard lost a footbal game riots/may day riots. There is always the chance to increase the level of force required, but going for lethal methods when you knew this was going to occur in advance is a bit extreme. Using tanks against a mob/protestors/rioters lands you on a not so illustrious list of a certain type of country.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 21:56:03


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:06:00


Post by: Frazzled


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:15:36


Post by: Mr. Burning


 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally.


Israel still has the intelligence and military capacity to ensure that doesn't happen. It also has the will to do something.

In open conflict Hamas and those militias would be wiped out within hours. Hiding behind politics and within cities/behind civilians hampers what would be an overwhelming response. And I actually have no love for the state of Israel and its land grabs and settlement building.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:16:38


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:23:39


Post by: jhe90


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:28:25


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?


Well of course Hamas knew what would happen, it counted on it in fact. Problem is that the Israelis walked right into the trap with their excessive response. Its pretty bloody stupid of Israel to use this level of force knowing that it was the intention to provoke it. You end up shooting mostly unarmed protestors because they got close to a fence, which is for some reason a crime punishable by death


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 22:44:33


Post by: jhe90


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?


Well of course Hamas knew what would happen, it counted on it in fact. Problem is that the Israelis walked right into the trap with their excessive response. Its pretty bloody stupid of Israel to use this level of force knowing that it was the intention to provoke it. You end up shooting mostly unarmed protestors because they got close to a fence, which is for some reason a crime punishable by death


Yeah. IDF over reacts. Instant bolster for Hamas support locally.

Make big propaganda use of funerals and declare them hero's etc. Publish widely. Repeat until required goal met. Add sad interview with widows etc for added emotional propaganda.

Hamas uses as above
Israel walked into the hole.

At most CS and Flash bag type grenades would repel some rock throwing teans etc. The last one ud bangs a d bright flash would mean anyone close to fence not wanna stay long.

When your eyes hurt like hell, your half blinded and ears right g painfully. Your no longer a threat. There's no need for live fire. The threat is withdrawing.

No one dead, a few people maybe needing a short hospital check up or overnight.

No one dead....

No propaganda as above.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/03/31 23:53:51


Post by: Ketara


So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 00:03:57


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Well, you know what they say about the IQ level of a mob. Its also just a different upbringing I guess, its pretty unthinkable to us, but dying has been romanticized over there to an extent. Young men/kids also tend to be pretty hot headed and not that strong at reflecting on actions.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 00:06:02


Post by: Grey Templar


 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.


Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 00:11:56


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Ironic because that was pretty much the 2008 peace offer which Abbas rejected


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 00:59:48


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.

It is not stupidity, it is fanaticism. Those protesters are full well aware they might get shot. But that is a sacrifice they are willing to bring for their cause.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 01:56:02


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Grey Templar wrote:

Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.


Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.

 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.


And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Interestingly, and this should say a lot about the situation: 'Nakba' and 'shoah' literally mean the same thing. Sadly, and increasingly, in more ways than one.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 02:05:17


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.


Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.

 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.


And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Interestingly, and this should say a lot about the situation: 'Nakba' and 'shoah' literally mean the same thing. Sadly, and increasingly, in more ways than one.



Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 02:29:56


Post by: Grey Templar


Any country that had a hostile army show up on its borders is well within their right to fire upon them. And yes, if a mob of thugs and brutes reaches 17k they can be called an army.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 02:35:33


Post by: John Prins


 BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.


That's not even close to the same thing. If US troops fired on an angry mob of rock throwing, petrol bomb tossing Mexicans threatening to cross the US-Mexico border, that would be a closer equivalent. And the US would do it, and everyone would agree they have the right to defend their borders.

Remember that just because rocks and petrol bombs are 'primitive' weapons compared to today's modern guns, they're still very much lethal weapons. A fist sized rock thrown by a proper sling has been killing people for thousands of years and molotov cocktails can set tanks on fire and kill or seriously injure the crew.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 03:09:28


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.
Citation needed.

And more than just "Jerusalem Post said..." because I googled it and can't find it.

That's orders of magnitude bigger than any estimate I've heard, like, they'd have to be killing 235 civilians a day on average for that number to come about.

Other estimates I've read have put it about 51,000 killed in total (including military casualties), of which Arabs make up 35,000 and Jewish folk 16,000, which is a drop in the ocean compared to how many folks are killed by other conflicts in the middle east.

Regarding the current protests, eh, I'd like to see some more information before I make any judgements. Maybe the IDF was overly aggressive, maybe the mob was hiding people with more than just rocks.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 03:20:23


Post by: Ustrello


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.
Citation needed.

And more than just "Jerusalem Post said..." because I googled it and can't find it.

That's orders of magnitude bigger than any estimate I've heard, like, they'd have to be killing 235 civilians a day on average for that number to come about.

Other estimates I've read have put it about 51,000 killed in total (including military casualties), of which Arabs make up 35,000 and Jewish folk 16,000, which is a drop in the ocean compared to how many folks are killed by other conflicts in the middle east.

Regarding the current protests, eh, I'd like to see some more information before I make any judgements. Maybe the IDF was overly aggressive, maybe the mob was hiding people with more than just rocks.


Lets be honest it is Hamas, they use schools, mosques and hospitals as launch points for missiles I wouldn't put anything past them


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 03:34:13


Post by: Wyrmalla


This seems reasonable.

Its a weekly thing for hundreds of Palestinians to turn up at the Israeli border and start throwing rocks and lighting fires. After a while the IDF soldiers throw some tear gas and most of the Palestinians disperse, before the IDF role in and start beating the organisers, or throw them in a jail. They could just light the place up (picture how soldiers would react to a molotov landing at their position), but go for a more measured approach. That one soldier who shot one of those knife spree attackers a while ago faced charges.

In which case if something more organised starts occurring, potentially preceding a larger armed revolt, then the IDF's going to respond to that in turn. The Israelis would prefer to nip a potentially more violent issue in the bud before it has the chance to escalate, and deal with the fall out. Hamas will respond with using that predicted violence - even if that wasn't their original intent - which will then justify the Israeli's actions. In which case the cycle continues.

Which makes one wonder how the situation would go down if the Palestinian side didn't use violent means to achieve their goals? Of course its been tried, and even had these groups not participated in the usual rock throwing and other crap the IDF would have stilled rolled in, however attacking non-violent protesters has a different spin than putting down those aligned with a terrorist organisation.


Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 03:39:02


Post by: Ustrello


 Wyrmalla wrote:
This seems reasonable.

Its a weekly thing for hundreds of Palestinians to turn up at the Israeli border and start throwing rocks and lighting fires. After a while the IDF soldiers throw some tear gas and most of the Palestinians disperse, before the IDF role in and start beating the organisers, or throw them in a jail. They could just light the place up (picture how soldiers would react to a molotov landing at their position), but go for a more measured approach. That one soldier who shot one of those knife spree attackers a while ago faced charges.

In which case if something more organised starts occurring, potentially preceding a larger armed revolt, then the IDF's going to respond to that in turn. The Israelis would prefer to nip a potentially more violent issue in the bud before it has the chance to escalate, and deal with the fall out. Hamas will respond with using that predicted violence - even if that wasn't their original intent - which will then justify the Israeli's actions. In which case the cycle continues.

Which makes one wonder how the situation would go down if the Palestinian side didn't use violent means to achieve their goals? Of course its been tried, and even had these groups not participated in the usual rock throwing and other crap the IDF would have stilled rolled in, however attacking non-violent protesters has a different spin than putting down those aligned with a terrorist organisation.


Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...


And that last sentence is the part that makes the Nakba vs Holocaust/Shoah point moot, the Palestinians left because they knew or we told that the Jews were to be killed in Israel. They just happened to lose and lets be honest here most Arab nations don't care about palestinians beyond using them as a tool to try and hurt Israel


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 07:54:41


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...
The reason I raised the question is because the number that Baron put forth - "over 6 million civilians" - would be absolutely heinous. Given there was barely more than 1 million Arabs in the region back in 1948 and these days there's I believe still less than 6 million, that'd amount to, what, killing every 2nd Arab or some such? That's genocide level of killing, whereas I think the real number is something much more believable (and at a random guess is probably below the ratio of muricans killed by foreigners vs number of foreigners killed by muricans since the end of WW2).


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 08:00:54


Post by: Wyrmalla


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...
The reason I raised the question is because the number that Baron put forth - "over 6 million civilians" - would be absolutely heinous. Given there was barely more than 1 million Arabs in the region back in 1948 and these days there's I believe still less than 6 million, that'd amount to, what, killing every 2nd Arab or some such? That's genocide level of killing, whereas I think the real number is something much more believable (and at a random guess is probably below the ratio of muricans killed by foreigners vs number of foreigners killed by muricans since the end of WW2).


An odd number considering that the Jerusalem Post puts the number of Jews dead in the holocaust at 6 million.

Edit: Oh, and the complete nonsense of that stat being coupled with Wikipedia's placing that the entirety of the Arab-Israeli wars have resulted in: just under less than 1 million deaths total for both sides (where even if that's wrong, finding another 5 million is a bit of a leap). Similar figures are corroborated by the first few hits on Google (where even the ones with a clear bias for the Arab side still not pushing the total over 1 million).


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 12:04:49


Post by: Mr. Burning


Yeah, 6 million is at best a wind up.







Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 15:31:05


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Mr. Burning wrote:
Yeah, 6 million is at best a wind up.


The UN does not think so, since the Post got the numbers from UNWRA, who have been observing the situation for sometime. However, I will add that this is the UN total for deaths directly caused by Israel's troops and policies over a 70 year period, so if they died of starvation due to one of the various blockades, they get counted. I'm looking around for a copy of the original report to link here. These are what's known as 'unnecessary deaths' which the Wikipedia articles expressly does not include. One number that gets bandied about a bit is that on average, over 3000 infants die per year in ways that can be directly attributed to the situation between Israel and Palestine. So you can imagine how it adds up over time.

Some numbers from the liberal press, and where they say they got it, re the fighting in 2014:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2014/08/israel-and-palestinians

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Israelis: 4.5% [IDF]

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 70-85% [Ministry of Health, Gaza; UN; independent NGOs]

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 50% [Israeli government]

This last one is pretty damning, as even the Israeli government admits for every single enemy fighter they killed, they also killed a civilian. This is because of the use of overwhelming force, per standing policy, against Hamas in particular, but also Palestinians in general So, when they suspect a building may contain Hamas fighters, they do not clear the building, they bring it, and possibly the surrounding several blocks, down, via artillery barrage or bombings.

In addition, Israel currently insists that all videos showing fleeing persons being shot are fabrications. The mods generally frown on me posting images and videos of people getting killed, so you can go look them up yourself. They've also taken down a tweet from the official IDF spokesman account admitting to the deaths of civilians. Now, magically, most the dead were terrorists.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-gaza-violence-protests-deaths-land-day-tanks-bullets-hamas-a8283676.html





Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 15:40:17


Post by: Ustrello


Oh the UN? Never any anti Israeli bias from them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:03:19


Post by: Orlanth


Israel has good reason to be wary, but they overreact horribly. No other western country would be able to get away with that they do.

The Israeli government have earned the censure they receive, but they don't care.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:10:56


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
Oh the UN? Never any anti Israeli bias from them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you...
There is no real anti-Israel bias in the UN. None of the influential countries within the UN has anything against Israel. The truth of the matter is just that Israel is doing some things that are just wrong, and if any other country started doing the same things they would rapidly become an international pariah under heavy sanctions, like North Korea or apartheid-era South Africa. So really, the UN is exceptionally lenient and favourable towards Israel. The UN allows Israel to get away with things no other country could ever get away with.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:15:24


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:

Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same


No, not in the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics, but yes, those things actually have gone on. Dawayima springs to mind. To this day, no one knows how many died there.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron


I ain't glossing over gak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you....


When you elect an indicted war criminal as prime minister, perhaps....

21 times the UN has tried to issue penalties and sanctions against Israel for various fun and games including war crimes, human rights violations, violations of international treaty, piracy on the high seas... it's a list. The US has used security council veto to shut it down rather frequently. To the degree that Obama was taken to task by Israel for not saving them again when a fresh batch of war crimes came in.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:34:03


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:

And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Mate, I'm not quite understanding what you're saying.

1. If a bunch of tanks fire on a group of people, one would think that there'd be considerably more casualties than 17. Explosive rounds are quite lethal.
2. If this tank fire started before the 17k people or petrol bombs, wouldn't that be a separate incident to the one me and the BBC article you linked are talking about?
3. If the seventeen people were killed by the Israeli army before they started trying to climb the walls and lobbing petrol bombs and in a massive mob, doesn't that mean that the Israeli Army showed loads of restraint and killed nobody when the huge mob of 17k people showed up?

You're raising more questions than you're answering here.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:34:16


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
The UN allows Israel to get away with things no other country could ever get away with.


Like murdering people in other countries?

 Ketara wrote:
If a bunch of tanks fire on a group of people, one would think that there'd be considerably more casualties than 17. Explosive rounds are quite lethal.


There's a lot of conflicting information atm, but for some reason they're all being considered part of the same thing since they happened at the same time. Chicago Tribune is saying that the farmer was killed when the tank shell went wide and hit them in his field. The early reports simply listed the farmer as the first casualty, since he was hit near the boarder fence. Some reports claim he shot at the Israelis and that's why they fired, but others say he simply looked suspicious. So, it's a bit of a mess in the press.

And, yes, they make a mess, which is why pictures of his body are not included in my posts.



 Ketara wrote:

2. If this tank fire started before the 17k people or petrol bombs, wouldn't that be a separate incident to the one me and the BBC article you linked are talking about?


Well, again, depending on the report, there were not tanks, and no petrol bombs, there were lots of all of them, there were flaming tires rolled, people were trying to destroy the fence, people were no where near the fence... it's the usual mess. Video taken during it shows fleeing people being shot in the back, so I'm guessing that things went sideways and Israel wants those reports to go away without being looked at too closely, as they've refused any inquest into them.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:46:28


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:

Well, the story is getting a bit tangled atm..... So, it's a bit of a mess in the press..... Israel wants those reports to go away without being looked at too closely, as they've refused any inquest into them.


So......nobody is actually sure what happened, but you're not letting that stop you making loads of generalisations, assumptions, and vague conspiracy theories?

Gotcha.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 16:50:23


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron


WEll, people who were there are appearently doing it:


https://www.haaretz.com/holocaust-survivors-condemn-israel-for-gaza-massacre-1.5260588


 Ketara wrote:

So......nobody is actually sure what happened, but you're not letting that stop you making loads of generalisations, assumptions, and vague conspiracy theories?
Gotcha.


You asked specifically about the first two guys. I answered. As far as the rest of it goes... Israel released one story, then it looked bad, so they then claimed they were shot at. It's the five o'clock follies, I can't disprove any of them, so I have to discalme that since i know someone heree will go get an article on Der Sturmer or someplace to refute anything that my articles say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:

3. If the seventeen people were killed by the Israeli army before they started trying to climb the walls and lobbing petrol bombs and in a massive mob, doesn't that mean that the Israeli Army showed loads of restraint and killed nobody when the huge mob of 17k people showed up?


Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there. you're basically claiming that what amounts to a very small protest was all the justification that's needed to butcher people. It's telling that despite having tear gas on hand, and rubber bullets, they decided to use live ammo on them instead. 750 to 1200 people were wounded, but only 17 have died so far. Some while fleeing.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:03:27


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:

You asked specifically about the first two guys. I answered. as far as the rest of it goes. Also, mod, nice 'fixed' post there.

Another question occurred after I finished typing but before I'd seen you reply. I hit 'edit' and inserted it. That being, y'know, what the button is there for, User #2009/05/29/8.


Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there.

It would be somewhat strange for an Army unit to light up over a dozen people using tanks when there's a bare handful of them peacefully waving signs/whatever, and then put all their guns/tanks away and use purely non-lethal measures when 17,000 people roll into town with Molotovs and start trying to dash the border

Heck, more than somewhat strange, I'd say it would be downright bizare.

Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there. you're basically claiming that what amounts to a very small protest was all the justification that's needed to butcher people.

I made no comments as justifying anything by anyone. I merely highlighted the strange scenarios outlined in your own statements, because they're somewhat confusing. Your story appears to change and twist depending on the questions asked (because as you've now admitted above, you actually don't know what happened).

It's telling that despite having tear gas on hand, and rubber bullets, they decided to use live ammo on them instead.


Didn't your own link say that tear gas was deployed? By drones, nonetheless?




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:07:45


Post by: Frazzled


 Orlanth wrote:
Israel has good reason to be wary, but they overreact horribly. No other western country would be able to get away with that they do.

The Israeli government have earned the censure they receive, but they don't care.


No other Western government is surrounded by people who literally want to kill every citizen in their country. I mean come on, we thought Mexico had it bad.

"Poor Mexico. So far from God. So close to the United States.'


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:18:52


Post by: Ketara


After poking around a little, I now see that the protest is organised by Hamas. That is to say, the organisation which deliberately puts mortar positions next to civilians and threatens to shoot them if they flee, as well as shifting bodies killed by Israeli counterfire to decorate multiple places in order to vastly inflate the count of casualties for UN observers.

I also see, looking elsewhere, that it's reported that in at least one instance, a Hamas gunman opened fire from the crowd. And that the crowd attempted to shield people trying to break holes in the wall, as well as egging on children to get involved.

Here's shots of the Israelis tear gassing a section of crowd.



The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.

I'm just going to file this under the 'Stupid crap orchestrated by Hamas to provoke a heavyhanded IDF response so that they can wave some inflated casualty figures around' box. A box which is much bigger than anyone would like.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:20:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:

No other Western government is surrounded by people who literally want to kill every citizen in their country.


Frazz, remember, they said that the Jews were conspiring to murder every German, too. And people in Germany at the time claimed that was a perfectly good reason to round up the Jews.

 Ketara wrote:

Didn't your own link say that tear gas was deployed? By drones, nonetheless?


Yes, they did, somewhat late in the game.


However, my point still stands about before they used the available non-lethal options, they started with snipers and live ammo.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:

The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.


With your permission, Mod, I'll post the videos of them shooting the people running away here.

For those that would like a censored version, they can go here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-gaza-violence-protests-deaths-land-day-tanks-bullets-hamas-a8283676.html

AlJazzera has the same shooting from a slightly different angle.


Oh, and, just, FYI: this is part of the Gaza boarder fence. They're gonna climb it or tear it down by hand?



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:36:13


Post by: jhe90


 Ketara wrote:
After poking around a little, I now see that the protest is organised by Hamas. That is to say, the organisation which deliberately puts mortar positions next to civilians and threatens to shoot them if they flee, as well as shifting bodies killed by Israeli counterfire to decorate multiple places in order to vastly inflate the count of casualties for UN observers.

I also see, looking elsewhere, that it's reported that in at least one instance, a Hamas gunman opened fire from the crowd. And that the crowd attempted to shield people trying to break holes in the wall, as well as egging on children to get involved.

Here's shots of the Israelis tear gassing a section of crowd.



The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.

I'm just going to file this under the 'Stupid crap orchestrated by Hamas to provoke a heavyhanded IDF response so that they can wave some inflated casualty figures around' box. A box which is much bigger than anyone would like.


The pics show how much a utter hell of a mess it is. You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away, 5-6 IDF troops on that position. Maybe more off camera with jeeps and so. Even with reserves they managed to put a massive danger on that border. 17,000 out there, few hundred maybe on other side.

You got everyone out there, you god IDF. You got people egging em on, and more. You got every single part to make a very bad situation worse in a very short time.

You have everyone, you have everything there to cause a massive problem..

Hamas definitely caused it. But IDF walked into a trap.
A big propaganda trap.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:40:10


Post by: BaronIveagh


 jhe90 wrote:
You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away,


Actually that big berm in the foreground is between the small fence and the actual boarder fence.



This was elsewhere, but the design is the same, though some places have concrete walls instead of fence.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:44:15


Post by: Frazzled


Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:46:29


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:
Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.


Fewer than the 'nearly all' that Israel is claiming.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 17:48:43


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:

With your permission, Mod, I'll post the videos of them shooting the people running away here.

I don't know, User #2009/05/29/8. The secret Israeli Overlords of the Internet might not approve of that. What's the exact content?



I just watched the video. I saw a guy running away from the fence getting hit with what looked like a rubber bullet and knocked over, before getting back up and carrying on running. Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:01:54


Post by: jhe90


BaronIveagh wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away,


Actually that big berm in the foreground is between the small fence and the actual boarder fence.



This was elsewhere, but the design is the same, though some places have concrete walls instead of fence.


BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.


Fewer than the 'nearly all' that Israel is claiming.


OK.. Well slightly different fence design but this is still inside the 500m or so "no go" zone they enforced on the border region on Gtaza side of the fence.

The whole tent camp puts them very much closer to the fences than before. This ramps up the tension for both sides, Hamas, Israel both using this situation for there own ends. The people on the ground are caught up between both there plots and plans.

Between em is a bunch of poor sods out there between the guns of Israel and Hamas.

And that just shows how hard it is to trust accounts from the area with there both vested intrests in various naritives.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:02:23


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ketara wrote:
Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?


No. The two guys who come out and help him, the one in the black shirt gets a real bullet and just sort of flops over mid stride. You can hear the shot in the audio from the Independents version, Al jazeera has no audio.

And the US once again blocks investigation into Israeli activities:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/blocks-unsc-statement-israel-force-land-day-180401054016894.html


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:24:09


Post by: jhe90


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?


No. The two guys who come out and help him, the one in the black shirt gets a real bullet and just sort of flops over mid stride. You can hear the shot in the audio from the Independents version, Al jazeera has no audio.


Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:28:50


Post by: Ahtman


Ah the combination of religion, history, and violence that we all love so much.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:34:27


Post by: BaronIveagh


 jhe90 wrote:

Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.


Yes, video of the shooting from several angles is not sufficient evidence. We need to see him blown away with our own eyes, in person, after he's filled the form in triplicate.

Abdelfattah Abdelnabi was, according to sources, the guy's name. Feel free to google him.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/video-shows-palestinian-shot-dead-israeli-snipers-180331102311374.html

This is the al jazeera footage. You'll see him around 40 seconds into the article.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:37:16


Post by: cuda1179


 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


Excessive elsewhere. par for the course in this region of the world.

Israel will mount operations against Hamas and I cant say i'll be too disappointed.


Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 18:47:35


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:

Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.


They did nothing of the sort. Try reading some of their proposals. I liked the Camp David one, 'We'll return your land except for the land, which will actually remain ours, maybe with the exception of Gaza, which you already have.' The annexations and security arrangements would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 19:18:03


Post by: cuda1179


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:

Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.


They did nothing of the sort. Try reading some of their proposals. I liked the Camp David one, 'We'll return your land except for the land, which will actually remain ours, maybe with the exception of Gaza, which you already have.' The annexations and security arrangements would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 20:11:37


Post by: BaronIveagh




Nice cartoon, it's omissions were staggering. but, hey, what can you expect from a book company that touts it's origins as a CIA counter soviet operation out to preserve christian democracy.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 20:48:35


Post by: jouso


 Ketara wrote:

It would be somewhat strange for an Army unit to light up over a dozen people using tanks when there's a bare handful of them peacefully waving signs/whatever, and then put all their guns/tanks away and use purely non-lethal measures when 17,000 people roll into town with Molotovs and start trying to dash the border

Heck, more than somewhat strange, I'd say it would be downright bizare.



The tank shelling incident happened hours before the protest on the fence. Security was heightened because the protest had been announced for days and after a parsley farmer was "acting suspicious close to the border". I don't know how suspicious his parsley-picking method was, but "close" was over 1km away from the fence. It was this farmer that was killed by the tanks firing several shells on his position.

This in turn caused the protest that had been announced for days to be bigger and probably angrier than it would have been.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 21:24:15


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same


No, not in the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics, but yes, those things actually have gone on. Dawayima springs to mind. To this day, no one knows how many died there.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron


I ain't glossing over gak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you....


When you elect an indicted war criminal as prime minister, perhaps....

21 times the UN has tried to issue penalties and sanctions against Israel for various fun and games including war crimes, human rights violations, violations of international treaty, piracy on the high seas... it's a list. The US has used security council veto to shut it down rather frequently. To the degree that Obama was taken to task by Israel for not saving them again when a fresh batch of war crimes came in.


Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:

Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.


Yes, video of the shooting from several angles is not sufficient evidence. We need to see him blown away with our own eyes, in person, after he's filled the form in triplicate.

Abdelfattah Abdelnabi was, according to sources, the guy's name. Feel free to google him.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/video-shows-palestinian-shot-dead-israeli-snipers-180331102311374.html

This is the al jazeera footage. You'll see him around 40 seconds into the article.


And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 22:36:58


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 22:57:13


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?


130+ out of nearly 100,000? I bet you I can find 130 former Wehrmacht soldiers who thought Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy pretty easy as the numbers between the two groups are comparable.

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/01 23:03:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son


Yes, the guy in blue was hit with a rubber bullet. Then two guys come from the right side of the frame and start helping him, and then the guy in the black shirt is shot.

He doesn't get up and keep running, he falls flat on his face and dies. Keep spinning those 'facts' 'son'.

Here's a third view of the shooting, though, beware this has the usual jihadist recruiting music and a 19 year old kid take a bullet.




According to the Health Ministry, Abdelfattah Abdelnabi was DOA. He had been shot once in the head.





On a positive note, protests have erupted in Tel Aviv, and thus far no one there has been shot.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 00:30:06


Post by: Ketara


Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 01:40:33


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same


No, not in the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics, but yes, those things actually have gone on. Dawayima springs to mind. To this day, no one knows how many died there.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre
Ok, so that's 30. Where's the other over 5999970 of your...

 BaronIveagh wrote:
the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.


Don't get me wrong, it sounds terrible. Shall we also start going through and listing all the terrible things done by US troops in Germany in WW2? There's a big difference between "bad gak happens in war" and "state sanctioned genocide of millions".

 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron


I ain't glossing over gak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
You ain't glossing over gak except the gak where that was, according to your link, a massacre undertaken by Lebanese Christians likely as a retaliation for a massacre of Lebanese Christians by the PLO and Lebanese National Movement which in turn was a retaliation for another massacre that occured during the Lebanese Civil War. The IDF were there and bore some responsibility, but you're definitely glossing over a lot of gak if you're lumping that massacre in with the absurd claim of 6 million civilians killed by the IDF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Yeah, 6 million is at best a wind up.


The UN does not think so
The Post said, the UN said... just post your link please because I can't find it and it's a pretty heinous claim to be making.

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 50% [Israeli government]

This last one is pretty damning...
{sarcasm}Yeah, it's so damning that a group that uses civilians as bullet shields has a high civilian casualty rate compared to an army that is actively trying to protect its people. {/sarcasm}

We're talking about a group that knows it can't win militarily. They're trying to win hearts and minds by doing stupid gak that gets civilians killed and then appeal to an international audience.

Maybe the IDF acted poorly in this circumstance, I really don't know, but forgive me for not automatically believing the IDF are evil folk when it's the goal of their opposition to make them look like evil folk.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 01:44:18


Post by: AdmiralHalsey


 Ustrello wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?


130+ out of nearly 100,000? I bet you I can find 130 former Wehrmacht soldiers who thought Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy pretty easy as the numbers between the two groups are comparable.

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son


I'd be impressed if you found 100 living Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.
And congratulations for bringing Hitler into a conversation about Jews.
Good job.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 01:52:47


Post by: Ustrello


AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?


130+ out of nearly 100,000? I bet you I can find 130 former Wehrmacht soldiers who thought Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy pretty easy as the numbers between the two groups are comparable.

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son


I'd be impressed if you found 100 living Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.
And congratulations for bringing Hitler into a conversation about Jews.
Good job.


Okay since you couldn't read between the lines I'll spell it out for you. There are roughly 100k survivors of the holocaust and around 250k german ww2 vets. Baron made the sickening comparison by saying the Nakba and the Holocaust were pretty much the same at this point, and I made an egregious comparison to draw to that point


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 01:56:21


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 01:59:26


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:22:41


Post by: AdmiralHalsey


 Ustrello wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)


That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?


130+ out of nearly 100,000? I bet you I can find 130 former Wehrmacht soldiers who thought Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy pretty easy as the numbers between the two groups are comparable.

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son


And congratulations for bringing Hitler into a conversation about Jews.
Good job.


Okay since you couldn't read between the lines I'll spell it out for you. There are roughly 100k survivors of the holocaust and around 250k german ww2 vets. Baron made the sickening comparison by saying the Nakba and the Holocaust were pretty much the same at this point, and I made an egregious comparison to draw to that point


Amazing. It's like you're telling me things I already know because you said them in the post I quoted.
Do share your further pearls of wisdom with me.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:25:29


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza

At the point where the lack of common sense is such that the killer can no longer be assigned blame. As in the analogy, someone standing on a motorway and getting hit by a car is indefensible. Standing on motorways is very likely to get you hit by a car, and there is not much a motorist can do to avoid hitting you. But here, walking near that border or picking up a tire should never be a reason to get shot. The blame is fully on the killer. Yes, the guy who got shot could have and likely did know that what he did might get him shot. But trying to blame him is like trying to blame a rape victim for being dressed inappropriately. Yes, she may have been dressed inappropriately, but that is no excuse to rape someone. Same as someone picking up a tire to roll at a border fence is no excuse to shoot at him.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:25:45


Post by: Frazzled


Ladies...chillinate a little.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:29:54


Post by: AdmiralHalsey


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza

At the point where the lack of common sense is such that the killer can no longer be assigned blame. As in the analogy, someone standing on a motorway and getting hit by a car is indefensible. Standing on motorways is very likely to get you hit by a car, and there is not much a motorist can do to avoid hitting you. But here, walking near that border or picking up a tire should never be a reason to get shot. The blame is fully on the killer. Yes, the guy who got shot could have and likely did know that what he did might get him shot. But trying to blame him is like trying to blame a rape victim for being dressed inappropriately. Yes, she may have been dressed inappropriately, but that is no excuse to rape someone. Same as someone picking up a tire to roll at a border fence is no excuse to shoot at him.


Oh come on, this is now crossing the line. A rape victim "Dressing inappropriately" is doing nothing wrong what so ever. Are you seriously suggesting that wearing a suggestive outfit is in the same league of attacking a foritifed millitary border, during a riot, manned by armed soldiers, whom have been known to use lethal force in the past, in a crowd containing terrorists, while gunfire is being exchanged?

If you're saying there's even the slightest bit of equivilency between the two, that's seriously gosh darn offensive.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:31:14


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza

At the point where the lack of common sense is such that the killer can no longer be assigned blame. As in the analogy, someone standing on a motorway and getting hit by a car is indefensible. Standing on motorways is very likely to get you hit by a car, and there is not much a motorist can do to avoid hitting you. But here, walking near that border or picking up a tire should never be a reason to get shot. The blame is fully on the killer. Yes, the guy who got shot could have and likely did know that what he did might get him shot. But trying to blame him is like trying to blame a rape victim for being dressed inappropriately. Yes, she may have been dressed inappropriately, but that is no excuse to rape someone. Same as someone picking up a tire to roll at a border fence is no excuse to shoot at him.


...and now you're comparing a soldier defending a border to a rapist and an idiot attacking said border to a woman dressing inappropriately, because that's a much more apt analogy


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:43:17


Post by: Iron_Captain


AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza

At the point where the lack of common sense is such that the killer can no longer be assigned blame. As in the analogy, someone standing on a motorway and getting hit by a car is indefensible. Standing on motorways is very likely to get you hit by a car, and there is not much a motorist can do to avoid hitting you. But here, walking near that border or picking up a tire should never be a reason to get shot. The blame is fully on the killer. Yes, the guy who got shot could have and likely did know that what he did might get him shot. But trying to blame him is like trying to blame a rape victim for being dressed inappropriately. Yes, she may have been dressed inappropriately, but that is no excuse to rape someone. Same as someone picking up a tire to roll at a border fence is no excuse to shoot at him.


Oh come on, this is now crossing the line. A rape victim "Dressing inappropriately" is doing nothing wrong what so ever. Are you seriously suggesting that wearing a suggestive outfit is in the same league of attacking a foritifed millitary border, during a riot, manned by armed soldiers, whom have been known to use lethal force in the past, in a crowd containing terrorists, while gunfire is being exchanged?

If you're saying there's even the slightest bit of equivilency between the two, that's seriously gosh darn offensive.

Picking up a tire is an attack now? Come on, you are beyond ridiculous right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.

There is a big difference though. If you get hit by a car on the motorway, then all the blame is on you, because the motorist that hit you could not have avoided you, being on a motorway and all. In this case, the blame is fully on the Israeli soldier. There was no excuse for shooting here, yet that soldier (or soldiers) took the conscious decision to shoot anyway. It is cold-blooded murder. It sounds like you are trying to blame the victim.


But at what point does lack of common sense become indefensible? They knew the IDF had orders to shoot if needed at least a day head of time and they know Israel is pretty serious when it comes to the border of Gaza

At the point where the lack of common sense is such that the killer can no longer be assigned blame. As in the analogy, someone standing on a motorway and getting hit by a car is indefensible. Standing on motorways is very likely to get you hit by a car, and there is not much a motorist can do to avoid hitting you. But here, walking near that border or picking up a tire should never be a reason to get shot. The blame is fully on the killer. Yes, the guy who got shot could have and likely did know that what he did might get him shot. But trying to blame him is like trying to blame a rape victim for being dressed inappropriately. Yes, she may have been dressed inappropriately, but that is no excuse to rape someone. Same as someone picking up a tire to roll at a border fence is no excuse to shoot at him.


...and now you're comparing a soldier defending a border to a rapist and an idiot attacking said border to a woman dressing inappropriately, because that's a much more apt analogy

No. The comparison is not between the rapist and the soldier, but the situation they are in and in how they respond to it. Both the woman and the tire guy do something they know might potentially put them at risk. But in both cases, what they are doing is something that absolutely should not be something risky. When the woman gets raped, or the tire guy shot, what they were doing is absolutely not a valid excuse for the perpetrator. The behaviour of the victims was not inherently risky, it is only risky because the perpetrator consciously decided to make it risky.
Also, you'd have to be crazy to call that an attack.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 02:58:44


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Iron_Captain wrote:
The behaviour of the victims was not inherently risky, it is only risky because the perpetrator consciously decided to make it risky.
Yeah no, being in a crowd of 17k doing stupid things like flinging stones and rolling burning tyres toward a border fence and it's armed soldiers is an inherently risky thing to do.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 03:39:05


Post by: Iron_Captain


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The behaviour of the victims was not inherently risky, it is only risky because the perpetrator consciously decided to make it risky.
Yeah no, being in a crowd of 17k doing stupid things like flinging stones and rolling burning tyres toward a border fence and it's armed soldiers is an inherently risky thing to do.

No. Not in any place except Israel. It is completely non-threatening and therefore is no excuse to use potentially lethal force. I am shocked I need to explain this to you.
When someone picks up a tire to roll at you, shooting him is NOT the appropriate response. Rolling a tire at a fence is not something that should get you shot, ever.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 03:42:30


Post by: Grey Templar


This just in. Rolling flaming tires, throwing rocks, and generally assaulting an international border isn’t “threatening”!


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 04:56:08


Post by: Freakazoitt


 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

This "simple solution" for 60 years can not be solved.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 04:57:09


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Ketara wrote:
Assuming that everything is as it appears (which is a leap of faith in and of itself in anything to do with anything involving Israel or Hamas), then yep, that was a manslaughter/murder. Live bullet at someone nowhere near the border fence at the time.The bloke shouldn't have been capped, that was wrong. There should definitely be an investigation launched into which trigger happy moron was trying to earn extra credit.

That being said; he still gets a Darwin award in my book. We can see in the various accumulated videos quite clearly where the Israeli' are considering the 'no-go' line to begin; and all these young blokes are dicking around trying to collect tyres to light up and roll at the fence to do damage. It's why the rubber bullets are flying, the protestors tried it once already and the tyres have fallen over before they got there. So the idiots are trying to collect them to have another go whilst the crowd cheers them on for their manly endeavours. Unfortunately, this one paid the ultimate price for moronically attempting to damage a heavily militarised border crossing.

tl;dr It was manslaughter or murder, the shooter should be located and any access to arms removed (at an absolute minimum), but given the context the victim was clearly an imbecile. Not that anyone should ever get killed for that; but it's a bit like hearing about the death of a bloke who got hit by a car because he had an argument in the middle of a motorway. Lamentable all around.





Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. But I guess their Hamas handlers and rabble-rousers got what they wanted: "Martyrs" for the propaganda wing.


Don't expect any action by the IDF, either. If anything, the personnel that opened fire will probably get bonus shekels and a promotion for bagging another "filthy Palestinian goy".


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 12:33:14


Post by: Ketara


I'm not saying its morally equivalent to the motorway example. That would not be true. I was talking about the level of reaction on my part there ('lamentable'). It's one of those things where you kind of shrug your shoulders for the most part, because whilst it's not as one sided as the motorway example, it's also nowhere near as one sided as the rape example. The victim was a victim. But he was also an idiot who very deliberately and knowingly put himself in a situation which involved heavy military fire of various types. He shouldn't have died for that, but if you're going to do the moral equivalent of breaking into an American police station at night on a dare? There is always a risk some moron of a cop is going to shoot first and ask questions later. The victim knew what they were doing, and as the poster above so eloquently put it, 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 12:49:49


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Some comments from the opposing viewpoint. The IDF have apparently claimed the footage of the guy getting shot running with the tyre has been selectively edited to make them look worse, though as far as I'm aware they haven't elaborated on how. They also they have identified 10 of the folk killed as being militants from various known terrorist groups (I think Hamas said 5 of them were). Someone also released what looks like a drone image of one of the folks killed laying near the border fence with a weapon (as in, some sort of AK variant rather than just a sling).

Personally I don't like to jump to conclusions for or against either side, but I feel Hamas tries to play the propaganda card a lot so I tend to take anything anti-IDF with a grain of salt unless I can find solid information on it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 12:57:24


Post by: Ketara


You'll probably find that like most of these things, it's half guys with AK's, a handful of guys engaged in provocative and moronic behaviour (like the above), and one or two genuine mistaken collateral innocents. That's the usual casualty list.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 14:44:02


Post by: John Prins


 Freakazoitt wrote:

This "simple solution" for 60 years can not be solved.


The Palestinians (and surrounding nations) aren't going to accept anything other than a total dissolution of Israel. Israel isn't going to accept that, and that's why nothing has been solved in 60 years. This isn't a fight about land per se, but about ideology, and that's why the only resolution will be done through force. Israel is winning because it has powerful international backing (Europe and USA), while nobody actually likes the Palestinians, they are just a cat's paw in the fight against an Israeli state.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 15:13:59


Post by: Iron_Captain


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some comments from the opposing viewpoint. The IDF have apparently claimed the footage of the guy getting shot running with the tyre has been selectively edited to make them look worse, though as far as I'm aware they haven't elaborated on how. They also they have identified 10 of the folk killed as being militants from various known terrorist groups (I think Hamas said 5 of them were). Someone also released what looks like a drone image of one of the folks killed laying near the border fence with a weapon (as in, some sort of AK variant rather than just a sling).

Personally I don't like to jump to conclusions for or against either side, but I feel Hamas tries to play the propaganda card a lot so I tend to take anything anti-IDF with a grain of salt unless I can find solid information on it.

The IDF isn't any less keen on propaganda, and they are a lot better at it than the amateurs of Hamas. You should take everything about the IDF, Palestine, Hamas etc. with not just a grain, but a boatload of salt.
I just recently read a book by a journalist who worked in the area for years, and he described how it is impossible to find out the truth about anything what happens there, because everyone is constantly distorting everything to fit their own purposes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
This just in. Rolling flaming tires, throwing rocks, and generally assaulting an international border isn’t “threatening”!

Nope. There is nothing threatening about a rolling tire, flaming or not. It will fall over after just a few meters, and even if doesn't it will just bump softly into its target and fall over. It is pretty hard, if not impossible to any damage to a structure with a tire. Therefore, tires are not threatening. Throwing rocks is another matter, but that is not what the people in the video were doing. And even throwing rocks should not be answered with bullets. That is disproportionate.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 16:47:36


Post by: John Prins


 Iron_Captain wrote:
And even throwing rocks should not be answered with bullets. That is disproportionate.


Not when those rocks are the size of a fist, being thrown with a sling.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 16:52:06


Post by: Prestor Jon


Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 16:52:32


Post by: Ustrello


 John Prins wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
And even throwing rocks should not be answered with bullets. That is disproportionate.


Not when those rocks are the size of a fist, being thrown with a sling.


As an archaeology student you should honestly know this captain


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 17:27:54


Post by: jouso


Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 18:09:22


Post by: Ustrello


jouso wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE



You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And many more being severely injuried as well


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 19:01:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
And even throwing rocks should not be answered with bullets. That is disproportionate.


Not when those rocks are the size of a fist, being thrown with a sling.


As an archaeology student you should honestly know this captain

Yeah, rocks can kill. But they are not very effective. Unless they are sharpened flint and attached to a long pole. The spear was the big killer of the past. Now if someone charges at you with a spear, then you have my blessing to shoot him.
Also, if he is throwing rocks using a sling, that changes things. Slings are not effective weapons unless you use special ammunition for it. If you just shoot a fist-sized rock it is highly unlikely to actually hit anything because rocks are about as aerodynamic as well... rocks. But if you use the right ammunition, a sling is a highly lethal weapon. Tiny rounded pebbles will do in a pinch but historically most sling bullets were made specially for that purpose. (We find them by the bucketload near Roman fortifications and battle sites, and experimental archaeology experiments clearly show they were extremely nasty and lethal. The Romans did all kinds of cool stuff with sling bullets btw, some have been found with snarky remarks inscribed on them and others had holes for making scary sound effects as they fly through the air).
However, even if you just throw a random rock you find on the ground it can in rare cases actually hit the target and be lethal. So, I would not blame a soldier for shooting someone who is flinging rocks at him with a sling. A sling is a lethal weapon. But I did not see any would-be Davids in that video, did you? These guys were just running around with a tire. There is nothing harmful in that. They had no slings, they were not throwing rocks. There was no need to fire at them.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 19:31:13


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
And even throwing rocks should not be answered with bullets. That is disproportionate.


Not when those rocks are the size of a fist, being thrown with a sling.


As an archaeology student you should honestly know this captain

Yeah, rocks can kill. But they are not very effective. Unless they are sharpened flint and attached to a long pole. The spear was the big killer of the past. Now if someone charges at you with a spear, then you have my blessing to shoot him.
Also, if he is throwing rocks using a sling, that changes things. Slings are not effective weapons unless you use special ammunition for it. If you just shoot a fist-sized rock it is highly unlikely to actually hit anything because rocks are about as aerodynamic as well... rocks. But if you use the right ammunition, a sling is a highly lethal weapon. Tiny rounded pebbles will do in a pinch but historically most sling bullets were made specially for that purpose. (We find them by the bucketload near Roman fortifications and battle sites, and experimental archaeology experiments clearly show they were extremely nasty and lethal. The Romans did all kinds of cool stuff with sling bullets btw, some have been found with snarky remarks inscribed on them and others had holes for making scary sound effects as they fly through the air).
However, even if you just throw a random rock you find on the ground it can in rare cases actually hit the target and be lethal. So, I would not blame a soldier for shooting someone who is flinging rocks at him with a sling. A sling is a lethal weapon. But I did not see any would-be Davids in that video, did you? These guys were just running around with a tire. There is nothing harmful in that. They had no slings, they were not throwing rocks. There was no need to fire at them.


You are correct on the sling ammunition point, but a large percentage of the rock throwers in the infatadas and riots of past have been using slings or some similar instrument.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 19:46:51


Post by: jouso


 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE



You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And many more being severely injuried as well


I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.

At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 19:52:58


Post by: Ustrello


jouso wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE



You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And many more being severely injuried as well


I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.

At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.


I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/02 21:19:24


Post by: Scrabb


A mate of mine used to be military security for some US base in country.

He had no qualms about his assignment, which was to shoot lethally anyone who got past the first fence and warning markers. Burning tires or no burning tires.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 06:14:20


Post by: TheMeanDM


I heard an interview today with a mom that had taken her 15yo old son on a "picnic" at the border area...or whatever its called....on Saturday (the day after alll the shooting).

She claims drones started dropping tear gas an then when they were ruunning away her son was shot because he was "carrying a palestinian flag".

1st: why the hell would you think it any kind of good idea to "picnic" in an area that just saw killing and riots/protests the day before

2nd: why would your kid be picnicking with a palestinian flag, hmm?

Something isnt passing the sniff test with her story.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 06:49:20


Post by: jouso


 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE



You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And many more being severely injuried as well


I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.

At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.


I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot


If the best defence of the IDF is the magic rubber bullet (likely at 3 times its "safe" minimum distance) there's not much to talk about it really. Not once, but 17 times. I suppose their tanks were using rubber shells earlier in the day, too? (to account for the fatality earlier in the day).

The IDF released this:



Which accounts for 10 of the killed, and their terror links. So they did have a kill list handy at the very least.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 08:16:14


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 08:23:14


Post by: jhe90


jouso wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
jouso wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.


Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.

Add this headline from the day before the protests:

Israel deploys 100 sharpshooters on Gaza border for Palestinian protests: Israeli army chief
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza/israel-deploys-100-sharpshooters-on-gaza-border-for-palestinian-protests-israeli-army-chief-idUSKBN1H41PE



You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And many more being severely injuried as well


I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.

At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.


I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot


If the best defence of the IDF is the magic rubber bullet (likely at 3 times its "safe" minimum distance) there's not much to talk about it really. Not once, but 17 times. I suppose their tanks were using rubber shells earlier in the day, too? (to account for the fatality earlier in the day).

The IDF released this:



Which accounts for 10 of the killed, and their terror links. So they did have a kill list handy at the very least.




AllSeeingSkink wrote:The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.


They have first World Intel and counter terror tech. They probbly knew they where coming and tracked them.

Israel is quite capable in counter terror given there situation.

And yeah, someone planned for the worst having battle tabks on hand and drones too, non lethal drones but still give you a birds eye view of thr situation that people on ground not normaly have.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 08:26:52


Post by: jouso


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.


The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.

10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 08:33:56


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Iron_Captain wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some comments from the opposing viewpoint. The IDF have apparently claimed the footage of the guy getting shot running with the tyre has been selectively edited to make them look worse, though as far as I'm aware they haven't elaborated on how. They also they have identified 10 of the folk killed as being militants from various known terrorist groups (I think Hamas said 5 of them were). Someone also released what looks like a drone image of one of the folks killed laying near the border fence with a weapon (as in, some sort of AK variant rather than just a sling).

Personally I don't like to jump to conclusions for or against either side, but I feel Hamas tries to play the propaganda card a lot so I tend to take anything anti-IDF with a grain of salt unless I can find solid information on it.

The IDF isn't any less keen on propaganda, and they are a lot better at it than the amateurs of Hamas. You should take everything about the IDF, Palestine, Hamas etc. with not just a grain, but a boatload of salt.
I just recently read a book by a journalist who worked in the area for years, and he described how it is impossible to find out the truth about anything what happens there, because everyone is constantly distorting everything to fit their own purposes.
I tend not to believe anyone and dislike it when folks 10,000 miles away with information filtered through half a dozen biased links in the chain of information act so passionately as if they even have a clue what's actually going on.

Though I do believe Hamas have a greater motivation to play the propaganda game, they have no chance of winning militarily so instead they're trying to win through global opinion forcing Israel to give up ground. I usually have to look harder to find primary sources of information from the Israeli side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jouso wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.


The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.

10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.

Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.

And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 09:21:49


Post by: jouso


AllSeeingSkink wrote:

jouso wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.


The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.

10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.

Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.

And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.


Israel is currently the sovereign state in charge of the West Bank and Gaza. Every Palestinian ID card is ultimately issued by Israel (if you live in Gaza or the West Bank the PA gathers the data and delivers it for you, but the issuing authority is still Israel).

As long as Israel continues to rule the West Bank and Gaza, it's law enforcement.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 22:02:12


Post by: BaronIveagh


Ok, so that's 30. Where's the other over 5999970 of your...


If you think that's 30, please actually read the article.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Don't get me wrong, it sounds terrible. Shall we also start going through and listing all the terrible things done by US troops in Germany in WW2? There's a big difference between "bad gak happens in war" and "state sanctioned genocide of millions".


Be my guest, as I'm not American.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Yeah, it's so damning that a group that uses civilians as bullet shields has a high civilian casualty rate compared to an army that is actively trying to protect its people. {/sarcasm}




https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Here's that army that is 'actively tying to protect it's people' using Palestinians and children as Human Shields.




AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Maybe the IDF acted poorly in this circumstance, I really don't know, but forgive me for not automatically believing the IDF are evil folk when it's the goal of their opposition to make them look like evil folk.


They don't need to. The IDF has something of a history of that, but since the US uses it's Security Council veto a LOT, we don't talk much about the many atrocities and war crimes of the IDF. The IRC in particular has pressed war crimes charges against Israel and the IDF for the rather long list of violations of the Geneva Conventions by killing and targeting Red Cross personnel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.

And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.


They better have been acting as law enforcement, otherwise they violated the ban on using tear gas for military purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:

You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
And many more being severely injuried as well


That's because what Israel calls 'rubber bullets' the BATF calls 'Armor Piercing' since they consist one or more steel slugs with a thin coat of rubber.

And, for the guy joking about tanks with rubber bullets, the British used to produce a 37mm rubber bullet. How is THAT non-lethal?


https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/watch-palestinian-protester-shot-meters-from-israel-gaza-fence-1.5973579

This one pretty much shows that the bit about approaching the fence is a lie. You can see in the background people getting much closer to the fence, but they shoot the man in the jersey closer to the camera, in the head. Surprisingly, he actually survives.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 22:47:23


Post by: jhe90


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Ok, so that's 30. Where's the other over 5999970 of your...


If you think that's 30, please actually read the article.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Don't get me wrong, it sounds terrible. Shall we also start going through and listing all the terrible things done by US troops in Germany in WW2? There's a big difference between "bad gak happens in war" and "state sanctioned genocide of millions".


Be my guest, as I'm not American.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Yeah, it's so damning that a group that uses civilians as bullet shields has a high civilian casualty rate compared to an army that is actively trying to protect its people. {/sarcasm}




https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Here's that army that is 'actively tying to protect it's people' using Palestinians and children as Human Shields.




AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Maybe the IDF acted poorly in this circumstance, I really don't know, but forgive me for not automatically believing the IDF are evil folk when it's the goal of their opposition to make them look like evil folk.


They don't need to. The IDF has something of a history of that, but since the US uses it's Security Council veto a LOT, we don't talk much about the many atrocities and war crimes of the IDF. The IRC in particular has pressed war crimes charges against Israel and the IDF for the rather long list of violations of the Geneva Conventions by killing and targeting Red Cross personnel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.

And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.


They better have been acting as law enforcement, otherwise they violated the ban on using tear gas for military purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:

You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
And many more being severely injuried as well


That's because what Israel calls 'rubber bullets' the BATF calls 'Armor Piercing' since they consist one or more steel slugs with a thin coat of rubber.

And, for the guy joking about tanks with rubber bullets, the British used to produce a 37mm rubber bullet. How is THAT non-lethal?


Depends on velocity of the round in question.
They still use a variety of that same plastic round it seems. They are 37mm by some 100mm total. There a big ass lump of plastic not a steel round coated in rubber.

And they if pushed to the point will be deployed.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-police-baton-rounds

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/16/article-2174168-0055AA5300000258-243_468x298.jpg

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/HYYGBY/a-rubber-bullet-or-baton-round-held-by-a-taxi-tour-guide-belfast-county-HYYGBY.jpg

Rubber bullets or baton rounds can be lethal yes. As pictures show there used from a dedicated weapon in the UK. Israel may use them alot more but there not unquie in being willing to employ them.

And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask.

The situations in gaza and so is truly messed up. However both sides have upped the ente beyond count.

Hamas encouraged. Israel reacts badly. The pattern had been repeated dozens of times. Its almost a sick game.






Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/03 23:50:26


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


People with a death wish get stoked up into a homicidal fervour by religious fanatics and march en masse in their thousands to throw rocks and petrol bombs at the soldiers manning a heavily defended border fence of a Nation with a notorious reputation for disproportionate military responses...and the results are entirely predictable.

I'm not sure what reaction I'm supposed to feel other than...



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 06:01:15


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 jhe90 wrote:
And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 07:36:24


Post by: TheMeanDM


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.

https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 07:46:17


Post by: jouso


 TheMeanDM wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.

https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/


Which is what we've been saying the whole time.

Problem being the IDF lives on that grey area where both tear gas and shooting live bullets into crowds are acceptable.

The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 07:56:41


Post by: Grey Templar


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.

In December, Palestine filed paperwork to become part of the treaty. Its unclear when that would take effect and make them protected under the treaty.

And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 08:07:27


Post by: Wyrmalla


jouso wrote:

The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.



Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 08:08:05


Post by: jouso


 Grey Templar wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.


You mean the treaties Israel refuses to acknowledge because the West Bank and the Gaza strip are no longer claimed by Jordan/Egypt and Palestine has never existed?

You can't have your cake and eat it so blatantly.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 08:19:49


Post by: TheMeanDM




Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.

The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.

Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.

The UN will force other countries to do stuff....


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 08:41:14


Post by: Wyrmalla


 TheMeanDM wrote:


Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.

The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.

Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.

The UN will force other countries to do stuff....


Israel doesn't recognise it as a state, though allow it to self govern and don't actively station troops their full time (just most of the time). They aren't Israeli citizens, so the Israelis don't have to treat them like they are. Of course the Israelis take the same stance as anyone within their country that don't subscribe to Israel being a state as well.

...Though how would say America react if 17,000 civilians decided to turn up at the Baja border and start crap? Obviously with the alignment to terrorist organisations over tones being in effect as well (like it all being one big attempt for some cartel to rush citizens into the other country/ start a movement to retake lost land, etc).



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 09:10:41


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 TheMeanDM wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.

https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/

Yeah that was my point... If Israel considers this law enforcement the use of tanks and snipers is pretty excessive. If they don't consider it law enforcement then the use is illegal, hence my two "for" parts. Also police actions are bad terminology, as that could refer to both internal and external operations, if this is an external operation its still illegal, as the host country would have to give permission.

So the real question is, would they be allowed to use tear gas on protestors if they aren't moving on the border? I'm pretty sure that's a no and therefore illegal. So like everything its on a case by case basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask

The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.


Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.

In December, Palestine filed paperwork to become part of the treaty. Its unclear when that would take effect and make them protected under the treaty.

And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.

This is fraught with problems though, recognition being one of them. Mainly the West does not recognize Palestine as a state. So if Palestine could join the OPCW treaty but would not be considered a state by Israel and the West, would Israel still be in violation?

While being a signatory is great and all, it doesn't give carte blanche to do whatever to non signatories. We prosecute people based on laws (even international ones) they don't recognize. The problem with international treaties like this is that you have to use one standard, not two, else the system tends to fall apart. Yeah Israel could use numerous technicalities, but each use undermines the broader system, which is certainly not in Western interests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheMeanDM wrote:


Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.

The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.

Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.

The UN will force other countries to do stuff....

Problem being that Isreali recognition isn't the final decider. If everybody recognizes Palestine but Israel, Palestine is still a state. If Israel then doesn't behave towards Palestine, its claim that it isn't a state would be useless. But its going to be a while before the West is going to recognize Palestine


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 09:41:23


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Grey Templar wrote:

And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.


I seem to recall, in this context, that sort of 'police action' would require Security Council approval to be legitimate. If we view the Palestinians as a hostile boarder incursion, it would qualify as military action, or 'warfare'.


However, as has been pointed out before, IDF has no problem committing total war, and has been known to call every dead chicken in the village a Viet Cong...errr... Hamas militant. No civilian casualties here, nope.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/04 10:32:16


Post by: jouso


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 TheMeanDM wrote:


Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.

The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.

Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.

The UN will force other countries to do stuff....


Israel doesn't recognise it as a state, though allow it to self govern and don't actively station troops their full time (just most of the time). They aren't Israeli citizens, so the Israelis don't have to treat them like they are. Of course the Israelis take the same stance as anyone within their country that don't subscribe to Israel being a state as well.


They allow it to self-govern much in the same way as, say, the UK to Scotland, with a dash of intimidation for good measure.

There are no Palestinian citizens, but a blurry not-Israeli but not wholly independent either. A non-Israeli citizen of the West Bank or Gaza has an Israeli-issued ID card, which has a PA stamp and a PA logo in lieu of the IDF logo they used to have but otherwise it's written in Arabic and Hebrew and the database, number and cathegory are firmly in Israeli hands which also keeps the Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza subjects (since they're not citizens) separate from each other (cards are a different colour for each one, then there's an extra ID card colour for those banned from entering Israel proper). They get paid in shekels, pay their taxes to the state of Israel, are subject to Israeli law, etc. etc. Only recently the PA has been allowed to keep security forces, but subject to the IDF and with a very limited scope and covering only part of their territory.

They're not citizens in the same way blacks in apartheid South Africa weren't citizens, but they're very much part (and responsibility) of the State of Israel.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/06 23:41:44


Post by: jhe90


Protests a carrying on now with burning tyres and more wounded and so.
. Is it me or is this going to end up another gazan war.

Hamas I'm sure have been busy rearing there rocket batteries for future battles. Things are heating up fast!


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 01:51:01


Post by: Frazzled


 Wyrmalla wrote:
jouso wrote:

The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.



Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.


No Palestine is actually Jordan. They are just smart enough to want no part of that.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 04:01:25


Post by: whembly


 Frazzled wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

jouso wrote:

The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.




Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.

Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.



No Palestine is actually Jordan. They are just smart enough to want no part of that.

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 07:34:25


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
People with a death wish get stoked up into a homicidal fervour by religious fanatics and march en masse in their thousands to throw rocks and petrol bombs at the soldiers manning a heavily defended border fence of a Nation with a notorious reputation for disproportionate military responses...and the results are entirely predictable.

I'm not sure what reaction I'm supposed to feel other than...





While you are spot on here, I must point out that Hamas, despite their name, is more political than Islamic fundamentalist nowadays. They're pretty much PLO/PFLP 2.0 now.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 11:26:22


Post by: BaronIveagh


 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 11:35:30


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Book of Grudges, right?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 11:50:07


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Who cares. The territory is actually Jordan.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 14:11:34


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Who cares. The territory is actually Jordan.

Actually it isn't. Jordan only temprarily annexed the West Bank before being evicted in 67 by Israel, then fully renounced their claims to the West Bank. Its been Israeli/Palestinian far longer than it has been Jordanian, Jordan only had a brief time in which it had conquered it in between it being Israel/Palestine.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 14:32:33


Post by: jouso


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Who cares. The territory is actually Jordan.

Actually it isn't. Jordan only temprarily annexed the West Bank before being evicted in 67 by Israel, then fully renounced their claims to the West Bank. Its been Israeli/Palestinian far longer than it has been Jordanian, Jordan only had a brief time in which it had conquered it in between it being Israel/Palestine.


And Gaza has never been Jordanian.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 14:32:51


Post by: Frazzled


There is no Palestine. There is only Israel and Jordan. If it is not Israel then it us Jordan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jouso wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".


According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....


I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)


Who cares. The territory is actually Jordan.

Actually it isn't. Jordan only temprarily annexed the West Bank before being evicted in 67 by Israel, then fully renounced their claims to the West Bank. Its been Israeli/Palestinian far longer than it has been Jordanian, Jordan only had a brief time in which it had conquered it in between it being Israel/Palestine.


And Gaza has never been Jordanian.


True. That is Egypt. They also don't want it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 14:52:55


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Frazzled wrote:
There is no Palestine. There is only Israel and Jordan. If it is not Israel then it us Jordan.


Try swapping the places of Israel and Palestine in that sentence and consider whether you'd consider the statement just as valid.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 15:20:32


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
There is no Palestine. There is only Israel and Jordan. If it is not Israel then it us Jordan.

Come on now Fraz, this is obviously false. From 1920 to 1948 it was the Mandatory of Palestine, neither Israel (which did not yet exist) nor Jordan.

When Israel declared its independence it did so in accordance to the borders laid out by the UN plan. Israel didn't claim to own all of Palestine in 1948.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 15:37:55


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:
There is no Palestine.


Not according to 136 countries, the UN, and the Roman Catholic Church. The Vicar of Christ trumps you, Frazz.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 15:40:25


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
There is no Palestine.


Not according to 136 countries, the UN, and the Roman Catholic Church. The Vicar of Christ trumps you, Frazz.

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:01:11


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:02:54


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.

Hey, its what the West does though. Palestine is to the West what Taiwan is to China on the believing its not a state front

Its a bit of a ridiculous idea that just because Israel managed to declare independence first and Palestine got overrun by neighbours that it isn't/couldn't be a legitimate state. By that notion almost every nation that was ever colonized could not be considered legitimate


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:28:22


Post by: Frazzled


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
There is no Palestine. There is only Israel and Jordan. If it is not Israel then it us Jordan.

Come on now Fraz, this is obviously false. From 1920 to 1948 it was the Mandatory of Palestine, neither Israel (which did not yet exist) nor Jordan.

When Israel declared its independence it did so in accordance to the borders laid out by the UN plan. Israel didn't claim to own all of Palestine in 1948.


Mmm. Looked it up. You're right. Learn something every day.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:34:46


Post by: whembly


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.

Hey, its what the West does though. Palestine is to the West what Taiwan is to China on the believing its not a state front

Its a bit of a ridiculous idea that just because Israel managed to declare independence first and Palestine got overrun by neighbours that it isn't/couldn't be a legitimate state. By that notion almost every nation that was ever colonized could not be considered legitimate

Here's the difference.

Israel was given that land by the UN post WW2. Whether that was right or wrong... its meaningless at this point. They fought wars to keep that land, so as far as I'm concerned, it's conquered land. Israel will "give it up" on their terms.

Even the Saudi Prince made a public statement that Israelis “have the right to have their own land” and that formal relations between Israel and the kingdom could be mutually beneficial.

That is yuge.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:48:10


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.


Irrelevant what you believe. It's the 6,000 nuclear warheads that make it reality.

"As always Caesar, your word shall be law."
"Keep my Legions intact. They make the law legal."


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:55:38


Post by: jhe90


 whembly wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.

Hey, its what the West does though. Palestine is to the West what Taiwan is to China on the believing its not a state front

Its a bit of a ridiculous idea that just because Israel managed to declare independence first and Palestine got overrun by neighbours that it isn't/couldn't be a legitimate state. By that notion almost every nation that was ever colonized could not be considered legitimate

Here's the difference.

Israel was given that land by the UN post WW2. Whether that was right or wrong... its meaningless at this point. They fought wars to keep that land, so as far as I'm concerned, it's conquered land. Israel will "give it up" on their terms.

Even the Saudi Prince made a public statement that Israelis “have the right to have their own land” and that formal relations between Israel and the kingdom could be mutually beneficial.

That is yuge.




That's plain ground breaking, and massive change in things.
They done a slow 180 from not even reconisingusing they existed.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:55:44


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 whembly wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.

Hey, its what the West does though. Palestine is to the West what Taiwan is to China on the believing its not a state front

Its a bit of a ridiculous idea that just because Israel managed to declare independence first and Palestine got overrun by neighbours that it isn't/couldn't be a legitimate state. By that notion almost every nation that was ever colonized could not be considered legitimate

Here's the difference.

Israel was given that land by the UN post WW2. Whether that was right or wrong... its meaningless at this point. They fought wars to keep that land, so as far as I'm concerned, it's conquered land. Israel will "give it up" on their terms.

Even the Saudi Prince made a public statement that Israelis “have the right to have their own land” and that formal relations between Israel and the kingdom could be mutually beneficial.

That is yuge.

Yes that statement was very surprising to say the least.

The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 16:57:31


Post by: jhe90


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

By the power vested in us by 40K Orks, if we believe hard enough it isn't, we can make it work as technically not a state!


By that Logic, I choose to disbelieve that Texas is no longer part of Mexico.

Of course, both Fraz and I know that if the UN did a Israel on Texas and made it a 'homeland for Mexicans', the Rio Grande would run red with blood.

Hey, its what the West does though. Palestine is to the West what Taiwan is to China on the believing its not a state front

Its a bit of a ridiculous idea that just because Israel managed to declare independence first and Palestine got overrun by neighbours that it isn't/couldn't be a legitimate state. By that notion almost every nation that was ever colonized could not be considered legitimate

Here's the difference.

Israel was given that land by the UN post WW2. Whether that was right or wrong... its meaningless at this point. They fought wars to keep that land, so as far as I'm concerned, it's conquered land. Israel will "give it up" on their terms.

Even the Saudi Prince made a public statement that Israelis “have the right to have their own land” and that formal relations between Israel and the kingdom could be mutually beneficial.

That is yuge.

Yes that statement was very surprising to say the least.

The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent.


Plus well. Israel been sat on those areas for decades. Israelis live there and so, at a certain point with ernough people it's almost impossible to undo.

They aiming for that. Build ernough settlements and the land is yours by defacto.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 18:52:40


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 18:54:25


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 18:55:09


Post by: BaronIveagh


 jhe90 wrote:

Plus well. Israel been sat on those areas for decades. Israelis live there and so, at a certain point with ernough people it's almost impossible to undo.

They aiming for that. Build ernough settlements and the land is yours by defacto.


They say that, but we got the US to fork over the property anyway, so, no, that's NOT how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.


Actually since a 'war of aggression' as a crime against humanity and is a direct violation of the Nuremburg principals, it's been fairly well followed. Russia is about the only major violator and even they made a point to muddy the waters as much as possible with Crimea and the Ukraine.



 Ustrello wrote:

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond


Well, the one that immediately springs to mind is the US ceding land back to the Seneca over the last 30 years or so. As the Seneca are a legally recognized by the US Congress as a sovereign nation, that would be an example. It's not perfect, there's confusion over the status of large portions of the city of Buffalo, but other conurbations have been handed over with a minimum of squawking.

A more interesting one has recently started to gain steam due to *edited for US politics Content* that Mexico annul the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This would see sovereignty of a significant portion of the US south west revert to Mexico. And there's not a lot the US can do about it short of wipe out the world with those 6k nukes Frazz mentioned if the trial goes against them in the world court. Treaties can get tricky sometimes, and no one wants to be seen as the guy to unilaterally renig on one.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 19:21:14


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.

Well it does for the US, yet the US is doing it internally. Plenty of countries that have grudges or lost wars with other countries. Imagine how many states could come out of the woodwork that started a war and then lost it plus some territory in the 20th century alone. But I'm talking modern day post 45 international politics and law. While you're right on the UN Charter, it did more imply conquest as in an aggressive war. The paradox is quite visible in how we consider the occupation of Cyprus by Turkey versus that of Palestine by Israel. Israel gets a lot more leeway. But giving in to Israel now would mean giving in to states like Turkey and Russia too. I'm not sure the West will prevent Israel with getting away with it, which is going to be a mess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond

Problem with not trying to tout it as a pillar of truth is that it loses all meaning. Then we're back to 19th century spheres of influence and survival of the strongest which posters in another thread seem to love. Going back to not holding it up as a pillar of truth is anarchy.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 19:30:17


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well it does for the US, yet the US is doing it internally. Plenty of countries that have grudges or lost wars with other countries. Imagine how many states could come out of the woodwork that started a war and then lost it plus some territory in the 20th century alone. But I'm talking modern day post 45 international politics and law. While you're right on the UN Charter, it did more imply conquest as in an aggressive war.





There's also...

the Rio Pact (1947)

General Assembly Resolution 3314 (1974) [Granted, this one is non-binding and only set out to define what a 'war of aggression' is]

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well it does for the US, yet the US is doing it internally.


By the way, what do you mean, 'Internally'? We've NEVER been part of the US. The treaty even expressly spells that out.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 20:10:58


Post by: whembly


Baron... the land Israel recovered during '67 was not a "war of aggression" as it was a defensive war for them.

Also, for the UN to ding Israel, they'd have to get past US' veto somehow.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 20:14:49


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:

Plus well. Israel been sat on those areas for decades. Israelis live there and so, at a certain point with ernough people it's almost impossible to undo.

They aiming for that. Build ernough settlements and the land is yours by defacto.


They say that, but we got the US to fork over the property anyway, so, no, that's NOT how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.


Actually since a 'war of aggression' as a crime against humanity and is a direct violation of the Nuremburg principals, it's been fairly well followed. Russia is about the only major violator and even they made a point to muddy the waters as much as possible with Crimea and the Ukraine.



 Ustrello wrote:

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond


Well, the one that immediately springs to mind is the US ceding land back to the Seneca over the last 30 years or so. As the Seneca are a legally recognized by the US Congress as a sovereign nation, that would be an example. It's not perfect, there's confusion over the status of large portions of the city of Buffalo, but other conurbations have been handed over with a minimum of squawking.

A more interesting one has recently started to gain steam due to *edited for US politics Content* that Mexico annul the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This would see sovereignty of a significant portion of the US south west revert to Mexico. And there's not a lot the US can do about it short of wipe out the world with those 6k nukes Frazz mentioned if the trial goes against them in the world court. Treaties can get tricky sometimes, and no one wants to be seen as the guy to unilaterally renig on one.


True congress did give you all federal recognition, but lets not kid ourselves here in what countries are the Seneca nations passports actually easily used? In the end you have a little more power than some schlub declaring his house as a sovereign micro-nation, but a lot less than a state because you depend on the federal government to continue to recognize your sovereignty. So I wouldn't really call it a precedent by any means at all, just a concession because you are still bound by the United States in the end.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 20:23:50


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Then we're back to 19th century spheres of influence and survival of the strongest which posters in another thread seem to love.


The whole "conquest is not allowed" thing is only going to last for as long as someone has the military power and will to enforce it. Which, looking at Israel, Turkey and Russia does not really seem to be the case. For political and military reasons, those countries can not be prevented from taking areas by force, so really the "no conquest" thing applies only to the weak.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 20:24:59


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.
ask Ukraine and Ossetia about that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:

Plus well. Israel been sat on those areas for decades. Israelis live there and so, at a certain point with ernough people it's almost impossible to undo.

They aiming for that. Build ernough settlements and the land is yours by defacto.


They say that, but we got the US to fork over the property anyway, so, no, that's NOT how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.


Actually since a 'war of aggression' as a crime against humanity and is a direct violation of the Nuremburg principals, it's been fairly well followed. Russia is about the only major violator and even they made a point to muddy the waters as much as possible with Crimea and the Ukraine.



 Ustrello wrote:

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond


Well, the one that immediately springs to mind is the US ceding land back to the Seneca over the last 30 years or so. As the Seneca are a legally recognized by the US Congress as a sovereign nation, that would be an example. It's not perfect, there's confusion over the status of large portions of the city of Buffalo, but other conurbations have been handed over with a minimum of squawking.

A more interesting one has recently started to gain steam due to *edited for US politics Content* that Mexico annul the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This would see sovereignty of a significant portion of the US south west revert to Mexico. And there's not a lot the US can do about it short of wipe out the world with those 6k nukes Frazz mentioned if the trial goes against them in the world court. Treaties can get tricky sometimes, and no one wants to be seen as the guy to unilaterally renig on one.


Are you fething kidding? Do you want to see how short the third Mexican American War is?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 20:53:41


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well it does for the US, yet the US is doing it internally. Plenty of countries that have grudges or lost wars with other countries. Imagine how many states could come out of the woodwork that started a war and then lost it plus some territory in the 20th century alone. But I'm talking modern day post 45 international politics and law. While you're right on the UN Charter, it did more imply conquest as in an aggressive war.

There's also...

the Rio Pact (1947)

General Assembly Resolution 3314 (1974) [Granted, this one is non-binding and only set out to define what a 'war of aggression' is]

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998)

Sure, but the Rio Pact is quite localized, while the ICC one is after the 1967-73 period when most territory got captured.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well it does for the US, yet the US is doing it internally.


By the way, what do you mean, 'Internally'? We've NEVER been part of the US. The treaty even expressly spells that out.

Apologies for wording. By internally I meant that the US fully swallowed up the previous states in its territory for all intents and purposes. So the readdressing of these borders happened inside the US, but plenty of other countries weren't swallowed up fully. Plus its a bit different in the US case as well. The Native American states lost their territory due to aggression by the US, not the other way around as in the case of Israel/Palestine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The trouble is you can hardly force Israel to go back to areas that they had before the wars. I can't imagine the international border gore that would create. Forcing Israel to return it would set an incredibly awkward precedent. What they could do is stop treating Palestinians like they are an exotic animal in an Israeli zoo, but that seems to get more unlikely with every passing year of Bibi.


That precedent already exists (thank YOU United States). 'Conquest' as a means of gaining territory has been a violation of international law and a direct violation of the UN Charter since the end of WW2.
ask Ukraine and Ossetia about that...

Which is exactly why were talking about the new Cold War so often in recent years.


 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:

Plus well. Israel been sat on those areas for decades. Israelis live there and so, at a certain point with ernough people it's almost impossible to undo.

They aiming for that. Build ernough settlements and the land is yours by defacto.


They say that, but we got the US to fork over the property anyway, so, no, that's NOT how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:


Yes and every single country has probably broken that in one way or another so I wouldn't tout that as a pillar of truth there.


Actually since a 'war of aggression' as a crime against humanity and is a direct violation of the Nuremburg principals, it's been fairly well followed. Russia is about the only major violator and even they made a point to muddy the waters as much as possible with Crimea and the Ukraine.



 Ustrello wrote:

Also which precedent are you speaking of, I want to know before I respond


Well, the one that immediately springs to mind is the US ceding land back to the Seneca over the last 30 years or so. As the Seneca are a legally recognized by the US Congress as a sovereign nation, that would be an example. It's not perfect, there's confusion over the status of large portions of the city of Buffalo, but other conurbations have been handed over with a minimum of squawking.

A more interesting one has recently started to gain steam due to *edited for US politics Content* that Mexico annul the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This would see sovereignty of a significant portion of the US south west revert to Mexico. And there's not a lot the US can do about it short of wipe out the world with those 6k nukes Frazz mentioned if the trial goes against them in the world court. Treaties can get tricky sometimes, and no one wants to be seen as the guy to unilaterally renig on one.


Are you fething kidding? Do you want to see how short the third Mexican American War is?

You do realize that is exactly the kind of response Baron said Americans would give if they were put in the shoes of the Palestinians right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Then we're back to 19th century spheres of influence and survival of the strongest which posters in another thread seem to love.


The whole "conquest is not allowed" thing is only going to last for as long as someone has the military power and will to enforce it. Which, looking at Israel, Turkey and Russia does not really seem to be the case. For political and military reasons, those countries can not be prevented from taking areas by force, so really the "no conquest" thing applies only to the weak.

Well its not worked perfectly anyway. But if you look at Turkey and Russia they indeed face backlash from the West for their actions and still do today. There is no such thing as the Turkish Republic of Cyprus for example, its basically a glorified prison build by Turkey for its own people, as nobody recognizes it as a state. Israel is a weird case for the West, but they basically face backlash from the rest of the world. Problem is, everybody keeps picking their preferred teams, so not a lot happens.

To be fair Russia is a bit different though, as Israel and Turkey used settlers on a large scale to complicate matters. Russia prefers to just keep a constant state of war to prevent resolution.

That level of guarantee needs to exist though, because otherwise we could start seeing a lot more nuclear powers pop up, and when everyone has nukes it doesn't matter how big your army is anymore.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 23:09:22


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:

True congress did give you all federal recognition, but lets not kid ourselves here in what countries are the Seneca nations passports actually easily used?


Well, you'd have to explain what you mean by 'easily used'. Most UN member states recognize them as legitimate passports.


 Ustrello wrote:

In the end you have a little more power than some schlub declaring his house as a sovereign micro-nation, but a lot less than a state because you depend on the federal government to continue to recognize your sovereignty.


Well, aside from the insulting and frankly Rule One violating delivery there, I'll point out that the same thing is true of every single nation in the western hemisphere. I mean, seriously, there's actually nothing but international agreements like the Buffalo Creek treaty that keep them from simply annexing the whole place.

Point of fact, there are a lot of small countries that have it worse off than we do when it comes to that. Luxembourg, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:

Are you fething kidding? Do you want to see how short the third Mexican American War is?


Game, Set, Match. Thank you, Frazz, for making my point. And, I'll ask, if the US hands you over to make good on their treaty requirements, what forces do you think would fight in that 'war'? Because I hear this sort of thing a lot from the guys the US abandoned in Salamanca to their new native overlords.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 23:17:43


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:

True congress did give you all federal recognition, but lets not kid ourselves here in what countries are the Seneca nations passports actually easily used?


Well, you'd have to explain what you mean by 'easily used'. Most UN member states recognize them as legitimate passports.


 Ustrello wrote:

In the end you have a little more power than some schlub declaring his house as a sovereign micro-nation, but a lot less than a state because you depend on the federal government to continue to recognize your sovereignty.


Well, aside from the insulting and frankly Rule One violating delivery there, I'll point out that the same thing is true of every single nation in the western hemisphere. I mean, seriously, there's actually nothing but international agreements like the Buffalo Creek treaty that keep them from simply annexing the whole place.

Point of fact, there are a lot of small countries that have it worse off than we do when it comes to that. Luxembourg, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:

Are you fething kidding? Do you want to see how short the third Mexican American War is?


Game, Set, Match. Thank you, Frazz, for making my point.


I'm sure some Iroquois Lacrosse players would have something to say about that. And frankly no it does not break rule one, just because it is an uncomfortable truth and something you don't agree with. If Israel were to cede land to the Palestinians and they were to gain recognition they could do as any sovereign nation could. The federally recognized tribes cannot do half of those things and that is why it is not an apt comparison or setting precedent


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/07 23:21:10


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ustrello wrote:
The federally recognized tribes cannot do half of those things and that is why it is not an apt comparison or setting precedent


If you want to bring that up, fine, our passports are still a legal mess. How's yours in Iran? Oh, they don't accept it? Must be another of those 'fantasy passports' and your country does not exist.

Your argument that the Palestinians should have to get recognition is null and void, as, they already have that from over 130 countries. Which, I grant, is more than us. So, by your standard there, they should be allowed to act as their own country.


BTW: we do have recognition from one country: YOURS. The business in 2010 was BS.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/09 23:43:18


Post by: BaronIveagh


Anyway, if you don't like my own people's example, perhaps Ireland?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/11 17:19:16


Post by: jouso


Back to the original issue. Some disturbing footage from the Israeli side has found its way.

Not much to add without overloading the profanity filter.






Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/11 20:12:54


Post by: Disciple of Fate


To add something. The video wasn't taken during the recent protests but months ago. The only crime according to the Israeli government is that they made a video of it, because that's the problem.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 01:05:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


Yeah, can't be waiving around proof of murder, because it's terrible to have it proved.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 20:38:59


Post by: Wyrmalla


jouso wrote:
Back to the original issue. Some disturbing footage from the Israeli side has found its way.

Not much to add without overloading the profanity filter.






What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 20:44:54


Post by: Togusa


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.



Damn straight! Good TexMex solves all problems.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 21:12:26


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.


Straight outta 1 KIngs 3:25. I like your thinking.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 21:46:25


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.

You might as well level the entire region. Plenty of holy places to fight over even with Jerusalem gone.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 21:48:17


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Wyrmalla wrote:

What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


Haaretz has been tying this to the current situation since, apparently, the Israeli soldiers show here murdering civilians are among those that were deployed for the protests. But they've been a bit hot under the collar about this business from the get go. Something about shooting the journalists. And refusing to allow wounded journalists to get medical treatment.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-slain-palestinian-photographer-reportedly-arrested-by-hamas-1.5994368

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-court-orders-israel-to-explain-refusal-to-grant-entry-to-gazan-amputee-1.5994540

Newsmen get funny about that sort of thing.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 21:50:32


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 21:55:13


Post by: jouso


 Wyrmalla wrote:


What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


Some posters in this thread were not convinced Israel would use live fire on unarmed protesters at the fence (including a side discussion on rubber bullets)

There you have it. It's almost a carbon copy, if smaller.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 22:10:36


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


The point, which you apparently missed, is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a cycle of violence with mutual hatred on both sides. If we're going to start making inflammatory posts, we could quite easily descend into a tit-for-tat.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 22:18:36


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


The point, which you apparently missed, is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a cycle of violence with mutual hatred on both sides. If we're going to start making inflammatory posts, we could quite easily descend into a tit-for-tat.

I didn't miss the point, on the contrary, you don't seem to notice the inherent irony in bringing up the equation of two sides doing bad things when one pretends to be a civilized and law abiding nation. By all means bring up Palestinian terrorism in response, it only makes things look worse for the Israeli army.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 22:28:01


Post by: jhe90


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.

You might as well level the entire region. Plenty of holy places to fight over even with Jerusalem gone.


Kingdom of heaven had it right.

Jerusalem is everything... And nothing.

Its value is what we make it. And we made it thr centre Point of over 2 billions peoples religion.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/12 22:46:47


Post by: Togusa


 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.

You might as well level the entire region. Plenty of holy places to fight over even with Jerusalem gone.


Kingdom of heaven had it right.

Jerusalem is everything... And nothing.

Its value is what we make it. And we made it thr centre Point of over 2 billions peoples religion.


This is EXACTLY the reason I maintain it should be Law that all conflicts between peoples and nations are settled the same way:

3,000 Points of Grot Tanks, winner takes all.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 09:28:07


Post by: MrDwhitey


 Togusa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.



Damn straight! Good TexMex solves all problems.


Well I have been told TexMex can be high in zinc.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/de-bonos-marmite-plan-for-peace-in-middle-yeast-740189.html


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 10:36:45


Post by: jouso


 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.



Damn straight! Good TexMex solves all problems.


Well I have been told TexMex can be high in zinc.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/de-bonos-marmite-plan-for-peace-in-middle-yeast-740189.html


Once all the creaky taco and pupusa trucks from behind every home Depot are deported send them straight to the fence.

Taqueria in Tel Aviv is as close as it gets for the fancy, sit-at-the-table stuff but nothing beats an honest to God filthy food truck with sweaty tired looking builders quietly queuing up.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 12:06:42


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 14:11:07


Post by: jouso


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.


Again, follow the earlier discussion. Videos were posted of the current protests and people went the usual "not the whole picture", "doctored images" or "they must be rubber bullets, Israel wouldn't use live fire".

This is relevant because for once tells the story from the other side. And the story is trigger-happy youngsters cheering at having an unarmed, immobile protester shot a good distance away with children in the vicinity.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 14:33:29


Post by: Xenomancers


At some point - shouldn't we just let these people fight it out? It's pretty clear we are past negotiation here. We all know who wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jouso wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.


Again, follow the earlier discussion. Videos were posted of the current protests and people went the usual "not the whole picture", "doctored images" or "they must be rubber bullets, Israel wouldn't use live fire".

This is relevant because for once tells the story from the other side. And the story is trigger-happy youngsters cheering at having an unarmed, immobile protester shot a good distance away with children in the vicinity.


You join a 17k mob and start throwing bombs and rocks at soldier that HATE you - yeah - we know how that goes. It's time to stop being ignorant of of inevitable here. It's time to stop feeling bad everytime this happens.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 17:38:11


Post by: Frazzled


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.


Wait so all the Scots aren't drunk?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 17:53:18


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.

Not really, what is shows that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later. So its important to contextualize how this "stuff" occurs. That's important because the defence for shooting now is "well what do you expect when its 17k angry Palestinians". They don't shoot because its 17k angry Palestinians, they shoot because that's just the general culture in that armed force. Shooting is the go to response, which doesn't detract from the conversation, its used to frame the Israeli response in the current situation,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You join a 17k mob and start throwing bombs and rocks at soldier that HATE you - yeah - we know how that goes. It's time to stop being ignorant of of inevitable here. It's time to stop feeling bad everytime this happens.

Its time to stop being ignorant and just acknowledge Israel is committing war crimes on a level no other army in the West would get away with. And yet here we are, with the West silently standing by watching Israeli apartheid play out. Israel only does this because we as the West let them. They would reign in these excesses so fast once the US and others stop pulling them out of the fire.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 18:11:20


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.

Not really, what is shows that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later. So its important to contextualize how this "stuff" occurs. That's important because the defence for shooting now is "well what do you expect when its 17k angry Palestinians". They don't shoot because its 17k angry Palestinians, they shoot because that's just the general culture in that armed force. Shooting is the go to response, which doesn't detract from the conversation, its used to frame the Israeli response in the current situation,



How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings? Instances like that video are in the minority, yet its being used in this thread to give the "context" that the IDF are out for Palestinian blood. Its grossly simplifying the Israeli stance, where if you want to give a proper image of the issue then we'd be seeing videos of all the times the Israelis didn't shoot. Again, its taking the minority and saying "oh, well some Israelis do stuff like this, so there's a pre-disposition for them to copy those acts", which is selling a false narrative (which unfortunately is the one which is overplayed whenever there's any discussion of that conflict).

Which ah, means I'll probably step out of this thread again as its just more of the typical anti-Israeli rhetoric.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 19:25:28


Post by: Frazzled


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.

Not really, what is shows that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later. So its important to contextualize how this "stuff" occurs. That's important because the defence for shooting now is "well what do you expect when its 17k angry Palestinians". They don't shoot because its 17k angry Palestinians, they shoot because that's just the general culture in that armed force. Shooting is the go to response, which doesn't detract from the conversation, its used to frame the Israeli response in the current situation,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You join a 17k mob and start throwing bombs and rocks at soldier that HATE you - yeah - we know how that goes. It's time to stop being ignorant of of inevitable here. It's time to stop feeling bad everytime this happens.

Its time to stop being ignorant and just acknowledge Israel is committing war crimes on a level no other army in the West would get away with. And yet here we are, with the West silently standing by watching Israeli apartheid play out. Israel only does this because we as the West let them. They would reign in these excesses so fast once the US and others stop pulling them out of the fire.


But they aren't the West.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 20:14:28


Post by: Xenomancers


So - what should Isreal do when angry mobs throw petrol bombs at Isreali soldiers from the neutral zone of the Gaza/Israeli border? A border that Israel is 100% justified in defending? I'm pretty sure anywhere in the world I'd get shot for throwing explosive devises at armed soldiers.

Quote from the OP article
"The Palestinian side accused Israel of using disproportionate force. Tanks and snipers were deployed, and witnesses said a drone was used to drop tear gas in at least one location."

Uhh...Should they only be allowed to respond with proportionate force to what should be considered an invading army? I got a better idea - maybe Israeli soldiers should just let the maniacs throwing bombs through so they can go injure innocent civilians - that's probably the most "humane" thing to do right?





Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 20:21:33


Post by: jhe90


 Togusa wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.


One could just as easily post videos of Palestinian terror attacks - bombings and stabbings.

Yeah great idea, equate the armed forces of what pretends to be a Western democracy with terrorists! That will get the message across!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


As far as I'm concerned the damned UN should swoop in remove ALL people from Jerusalem and LEVEL the city with heavy ordnance until its nothing but a pile of pebble sized particles. These idiots have been fighting over this gak for 2000 years and it isn't even worth it. So I motion, if ya'll cant share it, then neither of you gets it.

You might as well level the entire region. Plenty of holy places to fight over even with Jerusalem gone.


Kingdom of heaven had it right.

Jerusalem is everything... And nothing.

Its value is what we make it. And we made it thr centre Point of over 2 billions peoples religion.


This is EXACTLY the reason I maintain it should be Law that all conflicts between peoples and nations are settled the same way:

3,000 Points of Grot Tanks, winner takes all.


That and who can eat 6 cheatoo nacho snack packs the fastest in a multi stage challenge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.

Not really, what is shows that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later. So its important to contextualize how this "stuff" occurs. That's important because the defence for shooting now is "well what do you expect when its 17k angry Palestinians". They don't shoot because its 17k angry Palestinians, they shoot because that's just the general culture in that armed force. Shooting is the go to response, which doesn't detract from the conversation, its used to frame the Israeli response in the current situation,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You join a 17k mob and start throwing bombs and rocks at soldier that HATE you - yeah - we know how that goes. It's time to stop being ignorant of of inevitable here. It's time to stop feeling bad everytime this happens.

Its time to stop being ignorant and just acknowledge Israel is committing war crimes on a level no other army in the West would get away with. And yet here we are, with the West silently standing by watching Israeli apartheid play out. Israel only does this because we as the West let them. They would reign in these excesses so fast once the US and others stop pulling them out of the fire.


But they aren't the West.


We have to admit. It's hard to apply western standards out there. Western nations be eaten alive out there, thr whole regions dynamics differ greatly.

We are used to a peaceful content for last 6-7 decades on most part.

Middle East has fought multiple bloody wars to the death, win or die, and there's a very different set of rules out there.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 21:37:58


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Wyrmalla wrote:
How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings? Instances like that video are in the minority, yet its being used in this thread to give the "context" that the IDF are out for Palestinian blood. Its grossly simplifying the Israeli stance, where if you want to give a proper image of the issue then we'd be seeing videos of all the times the Israelis didn't shoot. Again, its taking the minority and saying "oh, well some Israelis do stuff like this, so there's a pre-disposition for them to copy those acts", which is selling a false narrative (which unfortunately is the one which is overplayed whenever there's any discussion of that conflict).

Which ah, means I'll probably step out of this thread again as its just more of the typical anti-Israeli rhetoric.

I'm not anti-Israeli. Palestinians do plenty of things wrong too. But my government just like many other Western governments actively support Israel regardless of what happens which I think is wrong. We expect countries to live up to certain international standards but then excuse Israel when it doesn't. When Hamas does bad things, yeah no surprise because its Hamas, but Israel is a signatory of the Geneva Convention and almost actively avoids curbing certain excesses. But their is a giant difference between how the two parties get treated by the West. Even though Hamas generally gets treated as it deserves.

I think at the end of the line that is what the problem boils down to. Israeli society is hardening, just look at how many supported the soldier executing an attacker. That is a gross violation of the laws Israel itself signed up to. You expect that sort of behaviour from the fanatics at Hamas. Yes, perhaps only a minority engages in it, but how often does that minority really get prosecuted for it? How many times is it just covered up or declared a good shoot? There is this undercurrent in Israeli society where people feel its acceptable to just ignore the laws of war, and as a conscript nation that is a very dangerous trend. Again, you expect this from Hamas. But we in the West and Israel itself have always tried to style Israel as an island of rationality in a sea of fanaticism. We have to hold both parties accountable for the crimes they commit.

The funny thing is, pro-Palestinians always say I'm pro-Israel and the pro-Israeli say I'm pro-Palestine No, I'm just pro equal standards in how the West conducts its international relations and I think Israel has been abusing the goodwill we have towards them for far too long. Sure, support Israel, but don't do so unconditionally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
So - what should Isreal do when angry mobs throw petrol bombs at Isreali soldiers from the neutral zone of the Gaza/Israeli border? A border that Israel is 100% justified in defending? I'm pretty sure anywhere in the world I'd get shot for throwing explosive devises at armed soldiers.

Quote from the OP article
"The Palestinian side accused Israel of using disproportionate force. Tanks and snipers were deployed, and witnesses said a drone was used to drop tear gas in at least one location."

Uhh...Should they only be allowed to respond with proportionate force to what should be considered an invading army? I got a better idea - maybe Israeli soldiers should just let the maniacs throwing bombs through so they can go injure innocent civilians - that's probably the most "humane" thing to do right?

Is that a trick question, how can it be an invading army if Palestine does not exist according to Israel

You don't have to let them through, but you don't have to preemptively start shooting them before they even reach the fence. Yes, eventually you might have to shoot some. But if they were actually be trying to break through we would be talking about thousands of dead not dozens.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 21:39:46


Post by: jouso


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
What's the relevance of this to the current issue? You could similarly post a load of stuff from the past century if you just want to show off one side doing things it shouldn't be. This just seems like you're trying to provoke anti-Israeli sentiments in this thread.

To be fair, its relevance to the thread is that it shows the attitudes in the Israeli army and government, which always tries to present itself as the the better party to the West. It also puts what Israel says about the protests in perspective.


It could be compared to having a discussion about one group protesting. Then someone posts a video of some of that group's supporters from years ago doing a bad thing. It happened sure, but did it happen during the current events? We're aware of stuff like that occurring, repeating it just detracts from the conversation and comes across as propaganda.

Like: here's a thread on the American Civil Rights movement, let's post a load of videos of black people committing violent acts from the past twenty years. Or here's a video on the Scottish Independence movement, here's all the videos of Scottish people being drunk. The Russians are bad! Here's a top ten of all the bad things Russians have done! And so on... Whilst then there being no counter videos of the other side doing similar actions, or rather even the side in the original video committing positive acts. Anything that can be done for OT not to be on the level of the Tabloid Press; though that's a losing battle.

Not really, what is shows that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later. So its important to contextualize how this "stuff" occurs. That's important because the defence for shooting now is "well what do you expect when its 17k angry Palestinians". They don't shoot because its 17k angry Palestinians, they shoot because that's just the general culture in that armed force. Shooting is the go to response, which doesn't detract from the conversation, its used to frame the Israeli response in the current situation,



How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings? Instances like that video are in the minority, yet its being used in this thread to give the "context" that the IDF are out for Palestinian blood. Its grossly simplifying the Israeli stance, where if you want to give a proper image of the issue then we'd be seeing videos of all the times the Israelis didn't shoot. Again, its taking the minority and saying "oh, well some Israelis do stuff like this, so there's a pre-disposition for them to copy those acts", which is selling a false narrative (which unfortunately is the one which is overplayed whenever there's any discussion of that conflict).



It would be a false narrative if didn't happen every few days.

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/after-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

Over the last 9 years (after Cast Lead) over 3.000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli security forces. Of those over 700 were minors and over 300 were women. Just slightly over 1.000 were known to be involved in violent exchanges, but over 1.600 were not. 53 were hit in targeted killings (and in the course of those operations 133 others died as well).

So even taking out those who were known to be involved in violent activities and the specifically targeted individuals you still have over 1.700, which is slightly more than one every two days. They're not isolated incidents.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 21:45:06


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
But they aren't the West.

Culturally, politically and economically they are very much part of the Western world.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 21:58:08


Post by: feeder


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
But they aren't the West.

Culturally, politically and economically they are very much part of the Western world.


The only way Israel isn't part of "the West" is literally.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 22:09:56


Post by: Frazzled


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
But they aren't the West.

Culturally, politically and economically they are very much part of the Western world.


Nope. It's just another country in the ME, and it's only democracy. When Syria is right next door gassing it's own people, SA is bombing Yemen, Turkey is attacking in the North, Iran is in the East, well my give a gak meter just isn't working.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 22:18:05


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
But they aren't the West.

Culturally, politically and economically they are very much part of the Western world.


Nope. It's just another country in the ME, and it's only democracy. When Syria is right next door gassing it's own people, SA is bombing Yemen, Turkey is attacking in the North, Iran is in the East, well my give a gak meter just isn't working.

It isn't 'just' another Middle Eastern country though. Israel is very much a Western founded country. Almost half of Israeli Jews can trace themselves as second or third generation immigrant from Europe or the Americas. And almost a quarter of the Israeli Jews can trace themselves back to the early settlers and pre 1950 wave from Europe after WW2. Israelis are majority Western immigrant decendent.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 22:34:22


Post by: Frazzled


And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 22:40:16


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 23:03:05


Post by: godardc


Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 23:16:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 godardc wrote:
Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.
If only sense had anything to do with it. It is pure hate from the palestinians and with israel a combination of hate and fear. These are all justified emotions because of the crap both of these cultures have had to endure but at some point it has to end. If "the west" just stayed the hell out of it. Israel would control the whole area and no one would be talking about Palestinians - because they would be living in Jordan or Syria or Egypt involved in some crazy radical movement blending in quite well with what is happening in those countries. The west forced isreal to give back the territories they occupied - the west forced Israel to live surrounded by enemies. Israel can take care of themselves if we just stay out of it - the have proven that on more than 1 occasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/13 23:41:40


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.

It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 05:20:44


Post by: jouso


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.


Lebanon who was for the most part destabilised by the influx of Palestinian refugees that changed a precarious ethno-religious balance. As well as black september in Jordan.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 08:51:58


Post by: godardc


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.

It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.


And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 09:53:24


Post by: Witzkatz


And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.


You realize this approach sounds a little bit like "Oh the Germans have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the Polish and Czech, the Germans would get their Lebensraum and it would have been over already." In general, it's frowned upon to advocate for eradication of a people just because then it would "at least be over already."

I'm not saying the palestinians are saints and the Israelis the devil. I'm saying this is a complex situation.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 09:57:47


Post by: godardc


Yeah, Godwin point, nice ...
They aren't exterminating anyone, come on guy, you know it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 10:08:02


Post by: Witzkatz


But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 10:27:55


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 godardc wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.


And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.

Simply put? International law is basically the foundation stone of US Empire. International law is the US exercising normative power. When international law does not get enforced but actively ignored by the US it deconstructs the informal US empire piece by piece. Not holding Israel accountable is speeding up the process of any potential US hegemonic decline. Letting Israel take Palestine shows the rest of the world that the US is a dog with all bark, but no bite. You think the international situation is bad now, wait until countries find out that the US doesn't care about enforcing its own very inconvenient (to more authoritarian countries) normative system.

Yes, I do believe international law and independence are important. But independence is not more important than international law, because that would mean not intervening even in cases such as Rwanda. But supporting Israel unconditionally as we are doing now is only hurting the West in the long run and damaging wider interests in the region. Even if were tougher on Israel, Israel can't walk away, because the West is basically the only part of the world that likes them. The West is all Israel has, yet its pretending Israel is all the West has, which is simply untrue.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 15:18:31


Post by: Grey Templar


 Witzkatz wrote:
But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.


If the Palestinians gave up their desire for Genocide and coexisted, like many Arabs do in Israel, then the situation would be better for everyone. Israel acts the way it does precisely because the Palestinians, and most of their neighbors, have active genocidal goals.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 15:52:57


Post by: Scrabb


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
To add something. The video wasn't taken during the recent protests but months ago. The only crime according to the Israeli government is that they made a video of it, because that's the problem.


Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 16:00:09


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Scrabb wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
To add something. The video wasn't taken during the recent protests but months ago. The only crime according to the Israeli government is that they made a video of it, because that's the problem.


Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 16:02:11


Post by: Witzkatz


 Grey Templar wrote:
 Witzkatz wrote:
But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.


If the Palestinians gave up their desire for Genocide and coexisted, like many Arabs do in Israel, then the situation would be better for everyone. Israel acts the way it does precisely because the Palestinians, and most of their neighbors, have active genocidal goals.


To clarify, the warmongers and agitators in Palestine are absolutely the other half of the issue, I'm not trying to paint the palestinians as oppressed saints. I just wanted to express my frustration at solution-suggestions involving the subjugation or destruction of one side. That might've worked one or two centuries ago to some degree, but in today's world I don't think it's something that would a) work and b) should be supported by other nations.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 16:20:32


Post by: Scrabb


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Scrabb wrote:

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.


Who? He was prosecuted, right? I gather that's what you were referring to with the Israeli government's response to the situation.

I crave links. Sentencing details.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 16:41:22


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Scrabb wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Scrabb wrote:

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.


Who? He was prosecuted, right? I gather that's what you were referring to with the Israeli government's response to the situation.

I crave links. Sentencing details.

Short answer, no. Longer answer, his boss wants to give the guy shooting a medal and the video maker a good talking to: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43709737


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/14 23:33:53


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?


Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 03:49:24


Post by: Scrabb


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Short answer, no. Longer answer, his boss wants to give the guy shooting a medal and the video maker a good talking to: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43709737
That's horrifying.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 04:12:53


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.



The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 05:28:17


Post by: PourSpelur


 godardc wrote:
Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.

Palestine is in a unique position here. Modern warfare has a lot (not all but quite a bit) of public support needed. Too many voters/subjects/clansmen/whatevers are upset that the government is throwing their children into the meat grinder and revolt/political change becomes more likely.
Palestine doesn't have this issue because they're not throwing soldiers into the grinder, they're convincing citizens to throw themselves in.
Gov't sends your son to die, gov't is bad.
Your son chooses to get killed by a foreign power, he's a Martyr.
That's the brilliance of this. For every 10 kids the Palestinian's throw into Israeli bullets, they get 15 replacements.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 16:29:27


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?


Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845


Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.




Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 16:48:33


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.



The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.


I dunno, a load of politicians on both sides of the Israeli house have condemned the sniper shootings. For example, Yehuda Glick (a man who recently survived an Islamic assassination attempt) from the currently in charge Likud party, called it a "very hard video to watch. Disturbing and disappointing." On the flip hand side, people in his own party have defended it, others still with no relation are refusing to judge without context. Like most places, Israel is no mono-mind.

No, if Israel has one policy that tends to echo across the political stratum, it's that of 'Nobody likes us, we don't care, the Army defends us and can therefore do no wrong'. In other words, I don't think it's so much about condoning shooting Arabs as it is defending the armed forces; who they perceive as being the bulwark between them and the latest round of missiles/bombings/casual murders. Which in all fairness, it is. That creates a certain reluctance to judge harshly when that Army is measured up and found wanting; especially given that on at least half of the occasions where such judgements need to be made, more context does tend to exonerate the culprits. Hamas and co. are very media savvy and quick to orchestrate misleading images, after all.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 18:02:30


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Xenomancers wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?


Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845


Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.




Everyone has a fundamental human right to protest.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 18:41:02


Post by: Xenomancers


 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?


Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845


Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.




Everyone has a fundamental human right to protest.

I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is - no one has a right to go to someone elses country and protest. It's even more absurd to say they have the right to go into someone elses country and throw bombs at boarder protection. They should direct their effort to protesting against Hamas who demands the death of Israel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.



The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.

It probably depends on who you ask. Civilian leadership probably turn a blind eye to a lot of it because they see it as a necessary evil. I'm sure the people in the military - the high command - the probably have a policy to meet force with force where ever possible. I concede it is probably like this and given the history - I fully understand and expect it to continue.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/15 19:23:51


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is - no one has a right to go to someone elses country and protest. It's even more absurd to say they have the right to go into someone elses country and throw bombs at boarder protection. They should direct their effort to protesting against Hamas who demands the death of Israel.

Maybe you should read up exactly what the Palestinians are protesting for, because you don't seem to understand why they go to the border. It has a significant symbolic meaning.

Also someone else country sounds nice, until you realize Palestine isn't a country but just Israeli occupied territory, because Israel doesn't consider Palestine an independent country. Palestinians only have sole control over roughly 1/5th of the West Bank and Gaza is what amounts to an open air prison.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 01:25:35


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

Why do you call them protestors?


Because they're protesting. No one has strapped on a dynamite vest, yet, so it's a protest.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Palestinians have no right to protest in israel -


Or vote, own property, or enjoy the rights of any other citizen. And, believe it or not, the UN outlined that that was to happen. Israel has never actually paid for the property they've taken, or allowed Palestinians who agree to allow that Israel exists to return to their illegally seized homes. You know, like they were supposed to do under international treaty. It's, in fact, one of the things that's being protested.


 Xenomancers wrote:

and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by fanatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the aggressors in this conflict.


A bunch of white Europeans come into a place, herd the brown natives into camps and slaughter any that disagree. You're right, it's not aggression, it's Manifest Destiny. It's clearly Israel's Divine Right to blow up hospitals, piss on the Geneva Conventions they're signatory to, incarcerate children for 20 year sentences for what amounts in other countries to petty vandalism, slaughter whole neighborhoods full of civilians who were no where near any Hamas positions, and invade their neighbors to slaughter any Palestinians who might be living in other countries.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 07:36:57


Post by: jouso


 Ketara wrote:
[

The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.


I dunno, a load of politicians on both sides of the Israeli house have condemned the sniper shootings. For example, Yehuda Glick (a man who recently survived an Islamic assassination attempt) from the currently in charge Likud party, called it a "very hard video to watch. Disturbing and disappointing." On the flip hand side, people in his own party have defended it, others still with no relation are refusing to judge without context. Like most places, Israel is no mono-mind.

No, if Israel has one policy that tends to echo across the political stratum, it's that of 'Nobody likes us, we don't care, the Army defends us and can therefore do no wrong'. In other words, I don't think it's so much about condoning shooting Arabs as it is defending the armed forces; who they perceive as being the bulwark between them and the latest round of missiles/bombings/casual murders. Which in all fairness, it is. That creates a certain reluctance to judge harshly when that Army is measured up and found wanting; especially given that on at least half of the occasions where such judgements need to be made, more context does tend to exonerate the culprits. Hamas and co. are very media savvy and quick to orchestrate misleading images, after all.


Which is mirrored across the other side of the fence.

Despite being herded in a place with little room to have any measure of economic or social progress there are still Palestinian politicians openly calling for peaceful demonstrations only (a majority of Fatah, and just every other fringe party). However all this fancy words do not resonate on the mostly poorly educated Palestinians, who have been bred on a diet of military dictatorship, stories of a glorious (but ultimately doomed) struggle and religious fundamentalism.

That's why the secularists lost the battle for Palestinian leadership. It takes a very special kind of siege mentality to stay in Palestine, and most of the secular, educated Palestinians are elsewhere. In other Arab countries, in the Americas, Australia, etc. When the people didn't get education, health care or even basic services they turned to Hamas who for the most part is still a charity association, and that's its most important recruiting tool. It is a honor to fight and die if necessary in the Hamas ranks because they have fed you and built your house, and will make you a new one for your family when the Israeli demolishes that house or plant new trees because your orchard was burned as retaliation. Their story is that violence worked for Israel to drive the British out (King David hotel, Count Bernadotte, Lord Moyne) so it will work for them.

If the IDF is the bulwark against terrorism for Israelis, Hamas is their only hope for liberation

There have been countless books on how Israel nurtured Hamas in their strategy to divide the Palestinian leadership, and it has worked spectacularly well. As long as Palestinians stay rogue, they have the moral high ground to do things that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else by their own populations. Siege mentality again, which as a nice bonus keeps the Israeli moderates well away from power (and even from Israel)

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/09/leftwing-israelis-important/

It might or it might not be deliberate, but the realpolitik angle is that Israel benefits from a weak and angry Palestinian leadership to keep the upper hand regarding setlements, water rights and so on.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 14:50:18


Post by: Xenomancers


Spoiler:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Why do you call them protestors?


Because they're protesting. No one has strapped on a dynamite vest, yet, so it's a protest.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Palestinians have no right to protest in israel -


Or vote, own property, or enjoy the rights of any other citizen. And, believe it or not, the UN outlined that that was to happen. Israel has never actually paid for the property they've taken, or allowed Palestinians who agree to allow that Israel exists to return to their illegally seized homes. You know, like they were supposed to do under international treaty. It's, in fact, one of the things that's being protested.


 Xenomancers wrote:

and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by fanatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the aggressors in this conflict.


A bunch of white Europeans come into a place, herd the brown natives into camps and slaughter any that disagree. You're right, it's not aggression, it's Manifest Destiny. It's clearly Israel's Divine Right to blow up hospitals, piss on the Geneva Conventions they're signatory to, incarcerate children for 20 year sentences for what amounts in other countries to petty vandalism, slaughter whole neighborhoods full of civilians who were no where near any Hamas positions, and invade their neighbors to slaughter any Palestinians who might be living in other countries.

"Because they're protesting. No one has strapped on a dynamite vest, yet, so it's a protest."
The article you posted states some where throwing petrol bombs - so it's not a protest anymore.

"Or vote, own property, or enjoy the rights of any other citizen. And, believe it or not, the UN outlined that that was to happen. Israel has never actually paid for the property they've taken, or allowed Palestinians who agree to allow that Israel exists to return to their illegally seized homes. You know, like they were supposed to do under international treaty. It's, in fact, one of the things that's being protested."
It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong. Also I am in full support of holding Israel accountable for all agreements they have made with the UN and international organizations. If you know specific incidents that Israel is being non compliant with agreements they have made with the UN - lets discuss that - this recent event in Gaza is just a bunch of misguided people looking to become martyrs.

"A bunch of white Europeans come into a place, herd the brown natives into camps and slaughter any that disagree. You're right, it's not aggression, it's Manifest Destiny. It's clearly Israel's Divine Right to blow up hospitals, piss on the Geneva Conventions they're signatory to, incarcerate children for 20 year sentences for what amounts in other countries to petty vandalism, slaughter whole neighborhoods full of civilians who were no where near any Hamas positions, and invade their neighbors to slaughter any Palestinians who might be living in other countries."
How far back are you going here? Some of it sounds like war - some sounds like peace time. You also fail to mention the suicide bombings and missile strikes committed by Palestinians which provoked all of this - there is such a thing as counter aggression. If you want to go all the way back to the beginning - it was a huge mistake to relocate to Jewish people to Israel after WW2 - can't change that now though.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 15:02:27


Post by: jouso


 Xenomancers wrote:

It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong.


Palestinians in Gaza are subject to Israeli laws, have an Israeli-issued ID card and pay most of their taxes to Israel, in shekels. Being American wouldn't you agree that taxation without representation is tyranny?

There is a right to property, but as all things Israel, military needs and Jewish settlements trump those rights.

https://www.yesh-din.org/en/the-right-to-own-property-for-jews-alone/



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 16:23:13


Post by: Vaktathi


 jhe90 wrote:

We have to admit. It's hard to apply western standards out there. Western nations be eaten alive out there, thr whole regions dynamics differ greatly.

We are used to a peaceful content for last 6-7 decades on most part.

Middle East has fought multiple bloody wars to the death, win or die, and there's a very different set of rules out there.
It should not be forgotten that, within living memory, "western" nations openly slaughtered each other by the millions in battle zones across the entire planet that make anything in the ME since then look like wannabe sideshows





Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/16 22:52:04


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

The article you posted states some where throwing petrol bombs - so it's not a protest anymore.


And the heads of the protest stomped on that quick. Because in previous protests, Israeli police came into the crowed and started throwing petrol bombs to make it look like the protestors were. So I'm taking that with a grain of salt. Though the effort to fly one on a kite was inventive, at least.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong.


Yes and no.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/explained-israel-s-new-palestinian-land-grab-law-and-why-it-matters-1.5495208

Here's an example of the games they play. And Hamas only sort of rules Gaza, but that's a whole nother mess.

 Xenomancers wrote:

How far back are you going here? Some of it sounds like war - some sounds like peace time. You also fail to mention the suicide bombings and missile strikes committed by Palestinians which provoked all of this -


Other than the last part about invading neighbors, that's the last four years. And what actually started it was two men with ties to a good half dozen terrorist groups abducting and killing three teens in the West Bank. Hamas leadership claimed that they had no idea that this was going on (quite likely given the nature of the men involved) but Israel immediately used it as an excuse to seize more land. However, it also started a series of reprisals that lead to a Palestinian teen being burned alive. When his family protested, they were arrested. The video taped savage beating of one of the deceased's cousins, who happened to be an 15 year old American citizen, by Israeli police, did at least get the US state department to protest.

Needless to say, gak went downhill fast following that. Hamas does not have the sort of solid hold on Gaza they'd like people to think they do, and so the locals started firing mortars at Israel. They didn't hit anything, but it was enough to get Israel to launch airstrikes, which did hit things, and then the situation spiraled out of control. Civilians bore the brunt of it, with casualty rates as high as 75% of all deaths in the Israel-Gaza war, resulting from Israels policy of flattening any buildings suspected of containing terrorists rather that sweep and clearing them. Given Gaza's astronomically high population density, this had the obvious results. Several accusations of violations of the Geneva convention (from the UN and others) had their investigations shut down by the US.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/04/17 21:26:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


Interesting report, even though it's from CNN an therefor automatically anti-American according to some posters.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/17/opinions/palestinian-journalist-slain-press-freedom-opinion-mahoney/index.html



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:07:18


Post by: War Drone


A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:20:07


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:26:24


Post by: jhe90


 War Drone wrote:
A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...


The IDF are not even defending the inner fence, the wire under attack seems to be a outer defence line to ensure you cannot approach the fence.

Then the earth, and I think that over looks or defends the main fence line. Even if there assult breaches that, there past a fence and the IDF earthworks above. After that it's fairly open ground ideal for counter attack by armoured reserves.

This is just sadly a exercise in futility.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:27:13


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

I too enjoy living in Mega City One.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:28:44


Post by: Da Boss


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.


I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:36:55


Post by: jhe90


 Da Boss wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.


I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.


Hamas has already made one attempt to use explosives to breach the border and been repulsed.

Hamas are sending alot of people into what they know is harms way by the tens of thousands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jhe90 wrote:
 War Drone wrote:
A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...


The IDF are not even defending the inner fence, the wire under attack seems to be a outer defence line to ensure you cannot approach the fence.

Then the earth, and I think that over looks or defends the main fence line. Even if there assult breaches that, there past a fence and the IDF earthworks above. After that it's fairly open ground ideal for counter attack by armoured reserves.

This is just sadly a exercise in futility.


And ot be sadly honest. this is middle east. nothing is done by half measures, good or bad.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:42:44


Post by: Da Boss


Ah, so the Palestinians should just roll over and die, allowing the Israelis to continue annexing their land from them with illegal settlements. I understand. It's another rendition of "Croppy Lie Down", updated for the 21st century.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:47:50


Post by: War Drone


Just noticed I wrote IDG instead of IDF ... must have meant Imperial Defence Guard ... not intentional ... just age ...


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:51:27


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Da Boss wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.


I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.


Oh, by all means stand up for yourself. Just don't do it by lobbing incendiary weapons at heavily armed soldiers.

That kinda has a predictable consequence, don't you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Ah, so the Palestinians should just roll over and die, allowing the Israelis to continue annexing their land from them with illegal settlements. I understand. It's another rendition of "Croppy Lie Down", updated for the 21st century.


Oh feth off. I'm saying that you shouldn't throw bombs at soldiers with guns. Because they will SHOOT you.

It ain't rocket science.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 13:58:10


Post by: Da Boss


So what exactly SHOULD they do, when Israel can apparently do whatever it wants? Like I said, this is just "Croppy Lie Down" for the 21st century.

Your description of the situation makes soldiers armed with live rounds out to be something like the weather. They are deployed and given their orders by the same government that is slowly annexing the remaining Palestinian land. The point of putting them there is to delegitimise protest by giving people like you this stupid point about how dumb it is to protest near armed soldiers, as if the protesters were the ones that put them there. It's "stop hitting yourself" geopolitics, and it's a load of bollocks. If the Israelis want to break up a riot there are ways to do it that don't involve live rounds.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:07:23


Post by: jhe90


 Da Boss wrote:
So what exactly SHOULD they do, when Israel can apparently do whatever it wants? Like I said, this is just "Croppy Lie Down" for the 21st century.

Your description of the situation makes soldiers armed with live rounds out to be something like the weather. They are deployed and given their orders by the same government that is slowly annexing the remaining Palestinian land. The point of putting them there is to delegitimise protest by giving people like you this stupid point about how dumb it is to protest near armed soldiers, as if the protesters were the ones that put them there. It's "stop hitting yourself" geopolitics, and it's a load of bollocks. If the Israelis want to break up a riot there are ways to do it that don't involve live rounds.


There already is mass volleyes of tear gas and other area denial weaponry being used. there expending the stuff by the ton. (IMG Tags)



thats 20+ tear gas rounds, there not just mowing people down heavy machine guns and artillery bombardment.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:08:16


Post by: Da Boss


Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:15:50


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Da Boss wrote:
Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.


Whats your suggestion then? Let a several thousand strong mob of angry Palestinians cross the border into Israel?

No nation in the world would allow that.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:18:12


Post by: whembly


Just IN... attempting to invade a sovereign nation may get you killed.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:20:19


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Well seeing as Israel doesn't consider Palestine a country it would be hard to cross the 'border'. Either these people are part of Israel or Israel is comitting war crimes, pretty simple.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:21:13


Post by: Xenomancers


Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements. This is a bad place to tout idealism. Imagine if the power balance was reversed and the Palestinians had superior military force - there wouldn't be a Gaza equivalent for Israel - they would just be dead.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:24:19


Post by: jhe90


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.


Whats your suggestion then? Let a several thousand strong mob of angry Palestinians cross the border into Israel?

No nation in the world would allow that.


its 50,000 now across multiple zones.

there expecting 100,000 potentially.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:27:30


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Blurred? There is a reason there are laws of war. We can say pretty clearly what is right or wrong.

Also the death of Israel is a bit much. Most just want back the land that was forcibly taken from them. Yes a good chunck has been indoctrinated. But it isn't all unreasonable.

What motivates the Israelis? Also a bit much to say peaceful coexistence. A lot of what Israel does is not aimed at peaceful coexistence. Settlement building being a primary example.
So I can claim these are not true statements.

There are things wrong on both sides. But that is blatantly favouring the Israeli perspective.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 14:59:09


Post by: jouso


 Xenomancers wrote:

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.


If only things were this simple. Just hit the bad guys until they stop doing bad things right?



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 21:46:24


Post by: jhe90


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Blurred? There is a reason there are laws of war. We can say pretty clearly what is right or wrong.

Also the death of Israel is a bit much. Most just want back the land that was forcibly taken from them. Yes a good chunck has been indoctrinated. But it isn't all unreasonable.

What motivates the Israelis? Also a bit much to say peaceful coexistence. A lot of what Israel does is not aimed at peaceful coexistence. Settlement building being a primary example.
So I can claim these are not true statements.

There are things wrong on both sides. But that is blatantly favouring the Israeli perspective.


There going to be back tommorow.. This one's not over yet.

And there deadlocked at current. Israel is not going to give a inch and neither is Hamas. There both locked into a path right now until both decide to change and that's pretty unlikely.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/14 23:45:04


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.


Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 01:28:42


Post by: Grey Templar


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.


Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.


The Israelis are/would be fine with peaceful coexistance. The issue is that even their opponents who could be classified as moderates want total genocide for all Jews, and the hardliners want it even more.

The difference between a Moderate Palestinian and an Extremist is that the latter doesn't even try to hide what he wants. Both desired genocide from day1.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 06:40:30


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


The existence of the Israeli settlements proves the fact that Israel explicitly isn't interested in "peaceful co-existence".


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 09:16:23


Post by: jouso


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The existence of the Israeli settlements proves the fact that Israel explicitly isn't interested in "peaceful co-existence".


And those in the israeli government asking for Israeli Arabs to be stripped of citizenship, that call for the incorporation of settlements to Israel proper, to bomb Hamas HQ each time they say something they don't like (and this being Israel you know it's not an empty threat).

Israel is only interested in keeping statu quo, because there just isn't room for two modern states there (single state solution much less so).

Demographics, water rights, there are many issues that would be very painful to sort out between two sovereign nations so keeping the Palestinians as a subjugated populace not-really-a-citizen is the realpolitik equivalent of kicking the ball to the long grass.



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 09:29:25


Post by: Da Boss


I'm sure Hamas would continue to be violent if you stopped settlement building, particularly at this stage. But what it does is take any feeling of justice away from the average palestinian, making them more likely to support Hamas, since their concerns and their wellbeing is obviously on no one's radar so they feel they have to take matters into their own hands. I think it's probably gone so far now it's not ever going to be fixed, and all the endings are horrible. What I don't understand is partisan support for Israel.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 09:45:51


Post by: Disciple of Fate


The idea that Israel is now interested in peaceful coexistence is the "feth you, got mine" attitude. There is a reason that Israel has dismissed most peace plans. They hold everything of value and there is barely anything left worth taking over. There is a middle ground between genocide on the Israelis and just screwing over the Palestinians. What Israel wants is peaceful coexistence while being able to screw over the Palestinians.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 10:26:54


Post by: Da Boss


Because of partisan support from the USA, Israel has absolutely no incentive to change.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 12:26:30


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


As I've said on the US politics thread, the embassy move has been a debacle.

None the less, I've recently came to the conclusion that there will be trouble in the Holy Land, big trouble

and it will have nothing to do with Jerusalem or the Iran nuclear deal.

I've been watching documentaries on this, and the big flash point will be:

Water...

With climate change, freshwater is starting to run out there...

Egypt/Sudan/Ethiopia are already arguing about the Nile and who gets access.

and Israel has had water wars in the past with its neighbours.

It has been said that society is always three meals away from revolution. You can add 1 glass of water to that saying...



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 13:04:21


Post by: Da Boss


Frankly, as the area of the world apart from the US who has beneifted most from fossil fuel sales, I'm not super sympathetic about the Middle East suffering from Climate Change.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 13:13:40


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 Da Boss wrote:
Frankly, as the area of the world apart from the US who has beneifted most from fossil fuel sales, I'm not super sympathetic about the Middle East suffering from Climate Change.


I'm inclined to agree with that, but I don't like to see normal people suffer.

From a purely selfish, what's in it for us, point of view,

we in Europe better hope there isn't any more trouble.

The Syrian civil war and the migrant crisis put a huge strain on Europe, and probably contributed to the Brexit vote.

Could Europe handle another major migrant crisis?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 13:46:23


Post by: Da Boss


Unfortunately, the wheels are in motion and at this point there's not much anyone can do.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 14:41:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.


Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.

Taking their homes back is impossible without war - which they have no means to wage and therefor have no leverage. They've already tried that multiple times anyways. They lost - now they are suffering for it. How long must this nonsense continue? All of this because of some nonsensical religious structures.

I've got a great idea - lets just blow them up - evac the city and burn it to the ground. Then what's left to fight for? It's time for humanity to stop living in the stone age and grow up and stop believing in fairies. That's the real truth of it.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 14:55:08


Post by: Vaktathi


 Xenomancers wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.


Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.

Taking their homes back is impossible without war - which they have no means to wage and therefor have no leverage. They've already tried that multiple times anyways. They lost - now they are suffering for it. How long must this nonsense continue? All of this because of some nonsensical religious structures.
Well, more practically speaking, you had a bunch of Europeans stream in over several different waves and push the existing post-Ottoman Arab population out, it's not just a religious thing, there's very clear ethnic/racial issues above and beyond religion.


I've got a great idea - lets just blow them up - evac the city and burn it to the ground. Then what's left to fight for? It's time for humanity to stop living in the stone age and grow up and stop believing in fairies. That's the real truth of it.
I could get behind that. Level the whole area, turn it into a giant parking lot.

But, even taking the religion aspect out of it, the fundamental issue is that you have over 3 million people living under occupation and desperate poverty with no functioning government and little but anger to subsist on, and another 2 million living largely the same existence except under blockade instead of direct occupation. You could erase every religious concept tomorrow, and nothing would probably change. A lot of effort has gone into that as well, it has largely been in the interests of all parties in the middle east to keep the Palestinian question open but unresolved for one reason or another at one time or another, and a functioning Palestinian government is something that has been intentionally undercut and destroyed.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 14:58:37


Post by: Disciple of Fate


The Israelis could consider giving some land back in exchange for them accepting the land is Israeli in the pre 67 areas or at least compensate the families for what they have lost. But Israel is not interested in meeting the millions of DPs in the middle, they are a far too convenient political tool to exploit.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 15:25:39


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Israelis could consider giving some land back in exchange for them accepting the land is Israeli in the pre 67 areas or at least compensate the families for what they have lost. But Israel is not interested in meeting the millions of DPs in the middle, they are a far too convenient political tool to exploit.



The middle ground right now looks more like Palestine renouncing the the entire city of Jerusalem and Syria to the Golan Height and Israel expulsing the colonists out of the West Bank and giving back the buildings and infrastructures created by the colonists as a financial compensation. The refugees living in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypte and Syria would then be naturalised and denied the right to return (unless they want to live in Palestinian lands). That's pretty much the best one can hope, but Israel will never risk dismantling the colonist as not to give control of the vital Jordan river to the highly unstable, corrupted and incompetant Palestinian leadership with which they were at war for decades. On their side, Palestinians will never accept to surrender the entirety of Jerusalem to the Hebrew State even though they would probably incapable of insuring security and good administration in Jerusalem East, a site of historical and cultural importance like none other in addition to be a major touristic attraction.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 15:44:10


Post by: Disciple of Fate


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Israelis could consider giving some land back in exchange for them accepting the land is Israeli in the pre 67 areas or at least compensate the families for what they have lost. But Israel is not interested in meeting the millions of DPs in the middle, they are a far too convenient political tool to exploit.



The middle ground right now looks more like Palestine renouncing the the entire city of Jerusalem and Syria to the Golan Height and Israel expulsing the colonists out of the West Bank and giving back the buildings and infrastructures created by the colonists as a financial compensation. The refugees living in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypte and Syria would then be naturalised and denied the right to return (unless they want to live in Palestinian lands). That's pretty much the best one can hope, but Israel will never risk dismantling the colonist as not to give control of the vital Jordan river to the highly unstable, corrupted and incompetant Palestinian leadership with which they were at war for decades. On their side, Palestinians will never accept to surrender the entirety of Jerusalem to the Hebrew State even though they would probably incapable of insuring security and good administration in Jerusalem East, a site of historical and cultural importance like none other in addition to be a major touristic attraction.

True, but I don't consider that the middle ground, that is just accepting the current political reality. Palestine is never going to renounce Eastern Jerusalem (should they really?) and Israel is pretty unwilling to deal with the settlers. Israel and Palestine could work together in Jerusalem as a dual city, but one should not discount Israeli actions leading to the current day Palestinian state. With help it is not unthinkable that Palestine can develop properly. As for the surrounding countries just accepting all those Palestinian refugees, fat chance, they don't want to and its millions of people who would have to go somewhere.

Its more Israel having its cake and eating it too than a middle ground with the best you said they can hope for. That's why it won't happen, its asking everyone to roll over for Israel.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 16:33:55


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, but I don't consider that the middle ground, that is just accepting the current political reality. Palestine is never going to renounce Eastern Jerusalem (should they really?) and Israel is pretty unwilling to deal with the settlers. Israel and Palestine could work together in Jerusalem as a dual city, but one should not discount Israeli actions leading to the current day Palestinian state. With help it is not unthinkable that Palestine can develop properly. As for the surrounding countries just accepting all those Palestinian refugees, fat chance, they don't want to and its millions of people who would have to go somewhere.

Its more Israel having its cake and eating it too than a middle ground with the best you said they can hope for. That's why it won't happen, its asking everyone to roll over for Israel.


I think that describing what I suggested as ''the middle ground'' to be rolling over for Israel. In fact, I consider the most important concession are made by Israel to the Palestinians. Beside Jerusalem East, Palestenians cead nothing and gain a lot of quality farms, roads, sewers, power plants and housing for free. They don't even need to manage, pay and operate the expulsion of 400 000 people. That's a very sweet deal for Palestine in my opinion and a very gakky one for Israel who risks to the most under that plan.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 16:43:03


Post by: Disciple of Fate


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, but I don't consider that the middle ground, that is just accepting the current political reality. Palestine is never going to renounce Eastern Jerusalem (should they really?) and Israel is pretty unwilling to deal with the settlers. Israel and Palestine could work together in Jerusalem as a dual city, but one should not discount Israeli actions leading to the current day Palestinian state. With help it is not unthinkable that Palestine can develop properly. As for the surrounding countries just accepting all those Palestinian refugees, fat chance, they don't want to and its millions of people who would have to go somewhere.

Its more Israel having its cake and eating it too than a middle ground with the best you said they can hope for. That's why it won't happen, its asking everyone to roll over for Israel.


I think that describing what I suggested as ''the middle ground'' to be rolling over for Israel. In fact, I consider the most important concession are made by Israel to the Palestinians. Beside Jerusalem East, Palestenians cead nothing and gain a lot of quality farms, roads, sewers, power plants and housing for free. They don't even need to manage, pay and operate the expulsion of 400 000 people. That's a very sweet deal for Palestine in my opinion and a very gakky one for Israel who risks to the most under that plan.

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 17:34:50


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.


That's also a missleading way to see it. It would be like if someone stole your gakky little house, demolished it, built a newer, bigger better house, built roads and infrastructures around it and then, would be forced to give it back to you because the land on which they built all this was stolen. Land is fairly worthless compared to what's on it. I think it would be very dishonest to say that getting back your land with a serious update in terms of infrastructure isn't a net gain. The fact that you don't have to handle the expropriation and relocation of the colonist or pay a dime for it is a pretty big boon. Can you imagine what would happen if the Palestinian authorities would have the duty to handling the expropriation? It would be a logistical and humanitarian nightmare.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?


Because it has the same symbolic value for both people (slightly larger for the Hebrew, it's, afterall, the holliest city of Judaism vs the third for Islam). It's also the site of all of Israel political institution beside their ministery of defense and foreign embassies. Having an incompetant, disorganised, bicephalous regime handling the most important city of Judaism would be an enormous security hazard. Would you trust a government without a trained police force to insure the security surrounding invaluable monuments and artefacts in a climate of rife religious extremism that could lead to violence or the destruction of those monuments? I wouldn't. Thus Jerusalem should be under the curtain of a Sate that can insure the security of the population and preserve the patrimony of humanity held within the city. It's not ideal, but it's reasonnable has Israel has recognised the rights of Muslims and Christians to worship in those place and the preservation of those monuments and artefacts.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 17:49:45


Post by: Disciple of Fate


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.


That's also a missleading way to see it. It would be like if someone stole your gakky little house, demolished it, built a newer, bigger better house, built road and infrastructure around it and then, when would be forced to give it back because the land on which they built all this was stolen. Land is fairly worthless compared to what's on it. I think it would be very dishonest to say that getting back your land with a serious update in terms of infrastructure isn't a net gain.

It isn't when you consider you were evicted at gunpoint 50 years ago and get zero compensation except for a house of a settler which they might burn down out of spite. Great, you got a nice house after 50 years of hardship, better hope there are enough to go around. A better analogy is an intruder stole your house and you were homeless for 50 years. Who cares if the house is slightly better, you were fething homeless for 50 years. But sure, lets be grateful these people build a better house in the conviction they never planned on giving back.

All that infrastructure is aimed at Israel and not at the Palestinian state. Its nice to have a road and all but not when its directly pointed at Tel Aviv and nowhere else.

epronovost wrote:
u also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?


Because it has the same symbolic value for both people (slightly larger for the Hebrew, it's, afterall, the holliest city of Judaism vs the third for Islam). It's also the site of all of Israel political institution beside their ministery of defense and foreign embassies. Having an incompetant, disorganised, bicephalous regime handling the most important city of Judaism would be an enormous security hazard. Would you trust a government without a trained police force to insure the security surrounding invaluable monuments and artefacts in a climate of rife religious extremism that could lead to violence or the destruction of those monuments? I wouldn't. Thus Jerusalem should be under the curtain of a Sate that can insure the security of the population and preserve the patrimony of humanity held within the city. It's not ideal, but it's reasonnable has Israel has recognised the rights of Muslims and Christians to worship in those place and the preservation of those monuments and artefacts.

Because it has symbolic value for both Israel should just have it? Hell what you desribe is exactly what Israelis have done as well, plenty of extremist Israelis. Neither side is great at protecting the other's heritage, what a bad argument. Netanyahu has even said that Israel could just destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque but doesn't want to. By that argument you could end up defending colonialism, it comes awefully close to the white man's burden.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 18:48:43


Post by: Xenomancers


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, but I don't consider that the middle ground, that is just accepting the current political reality. Palestine is never going to renounce Eastern Jerusalem (should they really?) and Israel is pretty unwilling to deal with the settlers. Israel and Palestine could work together in Jerusalem as a dual city, but one should not discount Israeli actions leading to the current day Palestinian state. With help it is not unthinkable that Palestine can develop properly. As for the surrounding countries just accepting all those Palestinian refugees, fat chance, they don't want to and its millions of people who would have to go somewhere.

Its more Israel having its cake and eating it too than a middle ground with the best you said they can hope for. That's why it won't happen, its asking everyone to roll over for Israel.


I think that describing what I suggested as ''the middle ground'' to be rolling over for Israel. In fact, I consider the most important concession are made by Israel to the Palestinians. Beside Jerusalem East, Palestenians cead nothing and gain a lot of quality farms, roads, sewers, power plants and housing for free. They don't even need to manage, pay and operate the expulsion of 400 000 people. That's a very sweet deal for Palestine in my opinion and a very gakky one for Israel who risks to the most under that plan.

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 18:53:39


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

It isn't when you consider you were evicted at gunpoint 50 years ago and get zero compensation except for a house of a settler which they might burn down out of spite. Great, you got a nice house after 50 years of hardship, better hope there are enough to go around. A better analogy is an intruder stole your house and you were homeless for 50 years. Who cares if the house is slightly better, you were fething homeless for 50 years. But sure, lets be grateful these people build a better house in the conviction they never planned on giving back.


Lets not spit in their face either. They might not even be the original thieves. Getting your stuff back with some high quality and high cost infrastructures and no need to manage the expropriation and resettlement. It's a reasonnable settlement as it returns the stolen property (the essential) and offers a modicum of compensation. It's not perfect for the Palestenians, but it isn't nothing either. A peace resolution is not about being grateful or avenging people who died in a conflict that is already 70 years old for its first victims. It's about finding common ground, forgive a little bit and carry on.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

All that infrastructure is aimed at Israel and not at the Palestinian state. Its nice to have a road and all but not when its directly pointed at Tel Aviv and nowhere else.


They don't just lead to Tel Aviv and even then, Tel Aviv is the main economical center of the region. You need road that leads there and the future Palestenian State will be almost completly economically dependant to Israel and might even use its currency. That's not a disandavantage at all.


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Because it has symbolic value for both Israel should just have it? Hell what you desribe is exactly what Israelis have done as well. Neither side is great at protecting the other's heritage, what a bad argument. Netanyahu has even said that Israel could just destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque but doesn't want to. By that argument you could end up defending colonialism, it comes awefully close to the white man's burden.


Yes, sadly, it has a lot of point in common with the White Man's burden. The only substancial difference is that Israel claim to East Jerusalem comes from the fact there is an extremely ancient population of orthodix jews that lives there since perhapse antiquity, that their most holy site is there too. A colonisator cannot make such claim over colonised land. Advocating for an immediate and total return of East Jerusalem to a government like the Palestinian authorities would, ironically, be similar to the Reparation/Restauration policies implemented in Zimbabwe for example. They led to ethnic violence and disastrous economical consequences that triggered new conflicts. There are risks and ugliness in both positions and I don't like it more than you do.

If you ask Israel to dismantle its colony and shoulder that cost alone and do so in manner that would preserve infrastructures to then give them to Palestine, you have to expect Palestine to give something in return. Sovereignty over East Jerusalem seems like a good compensation and its extremely easy to implement since its already the case in practice. The expropriation and re-settlement of 400 000 people and dealing with the backlash (which is going to be violent) will take enough time and energy at that point. It will take around 5-6 years to simply dismantle the colonies at minimum and probably 15-20 years to see a semi-competant government administer Palestine. Keeping East Jerusalem within the hands of Israel limits instability and the strength of the innevitable rise of zionist terrorism following the expropriation of the colonists and the peace between Israeli and Palestinians. It's not ideal, but we are well passed the ideal scenario.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 18:54:44


Post by: Vaktathi


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, but I don't consider that the middle ground, that is just accepting the current political reality. Palestine is never going to renounce Eastern Jerusalem (should they really?) and Israel is pretty unwilling to deal with the settlers. Israel and Palestine could work together in Jerusalem as a dual city, but one should not discount Israeli actions leading to the current day Palestinian state. With help it is not unthinkable that Palestine can develop properly. As for the surrounding countries just accepting all those Palestinian refugees, fat chance, they don't want to and its millions of people who would have to go somewhere.

Its more Israel having its cake and eating it too than a middle ground with the best you said they can hope for. That's why it won't happen, its asking everyone to roll over for Israel.


I think that describing what I suggested as ''the middle ground'' to be rolling over for Israel. In fact, I consider the most important concession are made by Israel to the Palestinians. Beside Jerusalem East, Palestenians cead nothing and gain a lot of quality farms, roads, sewers, power plants and housing for free. They don't even need to manage, pay and operate the expulsion of 400 000 people. That's a very sweet deal for Palestine in my opinion and a very gakky one for Israel who risks to the most under that plan.

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.
guess we better not talk about Irgun and Lehi and the roles they played in creating Israel, the Israeli military, and the Israeli government...


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 19:08:28


Post by: whembly


So...hey...this guy only wants to share his "fire water":
Yitz O'Meerkat, Full Semi-Auto Jew (@MeerkatYitz)
5/15/18, 8:57 AM
#CNNHeadlines: Palestinian killed by IDF while sending drinks to Israeli soldiers pic.twitter.com/Ccq9fbFWlw

...dammit, poor ol'Palestinian just wanted to share!


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 19:34:28


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 19:53:40


Post by: Disciple of Fate


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

It isn't when you consider you were evicted at gunpoint 50 years ago and get zero compensation except for a house of a settler which they might burn down out of spite. Great, you got a nice house after 50 years of hardship, better hope there are enough to go around. A better analogy is an intruder stole your house and you were homeless for 50 years. Who cares if the house is slightly better, you were fething homeless for 50 years. But sure, lets be grateful these people build a better house in the conviction they never planned on giving back.


Lets not spit in their face either. They might not even be the original thieves. Getting your stuff back with some high quality and high cost infrastructures and no need to manage the expropriation and resettlement. It's a reasonnable settlement as it returns the stolen property (the essential) and offers a modicum of compensation. It's not perfect for the Palestenians, but it isn't nothing either. A peace resolution is not about being grateful or avenging people who died in a conflict that is already 70 years old for its first victims. It's about finding common ground, forgive a little bit and carry on.

Does it matter if they are the original thieves? These people chose to live there with the full knowledge of what that would entail. It isn't nothing, but lets not pretend that Israel finally forcing the settlers out is a huge concession either, those people should never have been there in the first place. It is an imaginary concession.

epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

All that infrastructure is aimed at Israel and not at the Palestinian state. Its nice to have a road and all but not when its directly pointed at Tel Aviv and nowhere else.


They don't just lead to Tel Aviv and even then, Tel Aviv is the main economical center of the region. You need road that leads there and the future Palestenian State will be almost completly economically dependant to Israel and might even use its currency. That's not a disandavantage at all.

It is if you're not allowed to go to Tel Aviv. Israeli border control is notorious, unless you have a good reason to go you can't cross. Again, the infrastructure is fully geared towards being Israeli. A ton of investment needs to be made to integrate it into Palestine. Its not going to be easy, it has obvious downsides as well as advantages, not jist advantages.


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Because it has symbolic value for both Israel should just have it? Hell what you desribe is exactly what Israelis have done as well. Neither side is great at protecting the other's heritage, what a bad argument. Netanyahu has even said that Israel could just destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque but doesn't want to. By that argument you could end up defending colonialism, it comes awefully close to the white man's burden.


Yes, sadly, it has a lot of point in common with the White Man's burden. The only substancial difference is that Israel claim to East Jerusalem comes from the fact there is an extremely ancient population of orthodix jews that lives there since perhapse antiquity, that their most holy site is there too. A colonisator cannot make such claim over colonised land. Advocating for an immediate and total return of East Jerusalem to a government like the Palestinian authorities would, ironically, be similar to the Reparation/Restauration policies implemented in Zimbabwe for example. They led to ethnic violence and disastrous economical consequences that triggered new conflicts. There are risks and ugliness in both positions and I don't like it more than you do.

If you ask Israel to dismantle its colony and shoulder that cost alone and do so in manner that would preserve infrastructures to then give them to Palestine, you have to expect Palestine to give something in return. Sovereignty over East Jerusalem seems like a good compensation and its extremely easy to implement since its already the case in practice. The expropriation and re-settlement of 400 000 people and dealing with the backlash (which is going to be violent) will take enough time and energy at that point. It will take around 5-6 years to simply dismantle the colonies at minimum and probably 15-20 years to see a semi-competant government administer Palestine. Keeping East Jerusalem within the hands of Israel limits instability and the strength of the innevitable rise of zionist terrorism following the expropriation of the colonists and the peace between Israeli and Palestinians. It's not ideal, but we are well passed the ideal scenario.

What, you can't be serious? Just because some orthodox Jews lived there since ancient times the Israeli can't be colonizers? The modern Israeli is almost exclusively decendent from Western settlers in the 20th century. To pretend a Jewish enclave in Jerusalem represents Israel is just revisionism and offensive to Jews in general. Israel is a Western Jewish colonial state in all but name. Coopting the original inhabitans as some valid historical Israeli claim is a big no no.

I am not advocating for the immediate transfer of East Jerusalem. A time table can be established with international monitoring. My issue is just with letting Israel have it because the people they have been beating on for the past 70 years are in a bad shape.

Again, Israel let those settlements be build knowing full well it was illegal. Palestine should not give anything in return for just reversing something that was plain illegal in the first place. Its a false concession. Its like the car thief saying, "well I brought your car back, how about you give me a 1000 bucks for it?" Israel has dismanteled settlements twice before in regions, there is no reason it can't do so again in the West Bank. Giving potential zionist terrorism as a reason to keep East Jerusalem is just icing on the cake, what about Islamic terrorism over it then? There are no good arguments for Israel to permanently keep East Jerusalem.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:08:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.

Gotta be honest - don't know a lot about your little country. At some point in the history of your land - some tribe lost territory to another in a war or a clash - I don't even need to know the history to know that. It's been going on for ages. It's only recently in the past 100 years that this sort of thing has fallen out of style. That's the point I'm making. Also what are you talking about Illegal? Illegal to what? Which countries laws are they breaking - and why don't they do anything about it? Laws that aren't enforced aren't worth a dang thing.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:18:19


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.

Gotta be honest - don't know a lot about your little country. At some point in the history of your land - some tribe lost territory to another in a war or a clash - I don't even need to know the history to know that. It's been going on for ages. It's only recently in the past 100 years that this sort of thing has fallen out of style. That's the point I'm making. Also what are you talking about Illegal? Illegal to what? Which countries laws are they breaking - and why don't they do anything about it? Laws that aren't enforced aren't worth a dang thing.

Actually being a wind blasted hell scape drowning in the sea for the good part of 2000 years means our history is a lot less violent and more about small movements of people or absorbed waves of refugees in the 15th century. So we're not on that level really going by recorded history. It helps to live on a piece of dirt nobody wants

Its illegal according to the rules set up partially by the US about bringing in settlers on occupied land. Its international law that the US has a vested interest in protecting when eyeing countries like China and Russia. And the US does protect that in Crimea and Cyprus, it just doesn't really in Israel on that level, although it maintained its opposition to the settlements until Trump I guess. That is the issue at stake that we as Westerners have a vested interest in: international law. While most times we think international law as weak, you have to see it as an extension of American power and hegemony. Our wealth is build on the system international law is part of. Once that starts to decline the position of the West in the world also declines, to our relative detriment. Countries like China and Russia don't care about international law and dislike it because it contrains their might makes right actions. Preserving it should be a US goal and it used to be until Trump's vague problems with it.

Meanwhile Israel is a two bit player dependent on the US. But we're all acting like its the other way around. We can still support Israel, but pressuring it to follow our rules is good for our system in the long run while it barely harms Israel except for its nationalistic feelings.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:21:53


Post by: Frazzled


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.


The Gauls who were you there first? Or my peeps the neanderthals.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:25:00


Post by: Disciple of Fate


No, the Gauls didn't go this far north. The Gauls are pretty much French adjacent. Then we have the Belgicae who became sort of Belgium and up here we have a few Germanic tribes. Later those few tribes fell under the control of some Frankish and Viking influence but nobody really got displaced. It just blended together. Or not in the case of the Frisians who didn't mix and are still distinct in the north of our country, with a name going back to Roman times.

Funnily enough we might have some 'Gaul' in us, because Belgium and the Netherlands were once considered one region and when we struggled for independence in the 16th century a lot of what we now call Belgians fled north to what became the Netherlands.

Also most 'white' people have some neaderthal in them, they went extinct due to a number of enviromental factors but they had snu snu with our European ancestors beforehand.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:26:00


Post by: Vaktathi


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.

Gotta be honest - don't know a lot about your little country. At some point in the history of your land - some tribe lost territory to another in a war or a clash - I don't even need to know the history to know that. It's been going on for ages. It's only recently in the past 100 years that this sort of thing has fallen out of style. That's the point I'm making. Also what are you talking about Illegal? Illegal to what? Which countries laws are they breaking - and why don't they do anything about it? Laws that aren't enforced aren't worth a dang thing.
Primarily those recognized by the organization that helped create Israel in the first place, the UN, and it is the US through the use of its Veto power that prevents any action on the part of the UN. Not that the UN was ever going to try and marshal an army to push Israel out, but without US backing the settlement construction and hold over the West Bank would not be what it is today, especially not without the literal billions drawn from US funding sources that directly financed much of their construction.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:27:03


Post by: feeder


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


The sea. The Dutch stole their land from the sea.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.


I find no reasonable discussion can be had once people start dismissing the deaths of thousands of civilians with fact resistant handwavium.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:34:30


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 feeder wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


The sea. The Dutch stole their land from the sea. .

Lies, us Dutch build the sea as a wall to keep out the Mexicans. Didn't you see our infomercial "America first, the Netherlands second"? (stolen from us by so many copycats)

 feeder wrote:
Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.


I find no reasonable discussion can be had once people start dismissing the deaths of thousands of civilians with fact resistant handwavium.

If that was the case I might as well stop posting here, when does a discussion not involve handwaving the death of thousands, from healthcare to automated cars?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:36:59


Post by: Xenomancers


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not really, saying free is misleading when it was illegally occupied by Israeli settlers in the first place. Its like a thief stealing your car and expecting you to be happy when you return it. Israel let those settlers rampage knowing it was illegal, yet it did nothing to stop them. Israel should not be rewarded for bad behaviour.

You also seriously undervalue the meaning of East Jerusalem. If its so easy, why don't the Israelis just let them have it?

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen? Why don't yours? Probably because it's freaking laughable to even suggest such nonsense. Ownership of territory has always and will always be determined by 2 thing. Military power and strong political ties - Palestine has none of these things. For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again? Second, when the Israelis did it is was already clearly put into law that this was illegal. We hold the Turkish Republic of Cyprus to be illegal for the very same reason and so does the US btw. Your knowledge of the historical background is the only thing laughable here.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.

Gotta be honest - don't know a lot about your little country. At some point in the history of your land - some tribe lost territory to another in a war or a clash - I don't even need to know the history to know that. It's been going on for ages. It's only recently in the past 100 years that this sort of thing has fallen out of style. That's the point I'm making. Also what are you talking about Illegal? Illegal to what? Which countries laws are they breaking - and why don't they do anything about it? Laws that aren't enforced aren't worth a dang thing.

Actually being a wind blasted hell scape drowning in the sea for the good part of 2000 years means our history is a lot less violent and more about small movements of people or absorbed waves of refugees in the 15th century. So we're not on that level really going by recorded history. It helps to live on a piece of dirt nobody wants

Its illegal according to the rules set up partially by the US about bringing in settlers on occupied land. Its international law that the US has a vested interest in protecting when eyeing countries like China and Russia. And the US does protect that in Crimea and Cyprus, it just doesn't really in Israel on that level, although it maintained its opposition to the settlements until Trump I guess. That is the issue at stake that we as Westerners have a vested interest in: international law. While most times we think international law as weak, you have to see it as an extension of American power and hegemony. Our wealth is build on the system international law is part of. Once that starts to decline the position of the West in the world also declines, to our relative detriment. Countries like China and Russia don't care about international law and dislike it because it contrains their might makes right actions. Preserving it should be a US goal and it used to be until Trump's vague problems with it.

Meanwhile Israel is a two bit player dependent on the US. But we're all acting like its the other way around. We can still support Israel, but pressuring it to follow our rules is good for our system in the long run while it barely harms Israel except for its nationalistic feelings.

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 feeder wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


The sea. The Dutch stole their land from the sea.

Israel was created by the UN of all things, neither military power or strong political ties were used. And as Vakathi said, Israel was founded by terrorists. For decades the country was run by people that had a terrorist past.

Read up on some Israeli history and international law in comparable cases where the US does observe the legal course of action and we can talk. But hats off to you for calling the genocide of a people in regards to the US nonesense though.


I find no reasonable discussion can be had once people start dismissing the deaths of thousands of civilians with fact resistant handwavium.

I see it differently - I think once all you care about is how many people died today doing dumb gak - it's not even about the issues anymore. Hammas is sending brainwashed zelots to their death to send a political message. This is where Hammas wants your attention. This is how they draw their support. This is what Israel is up against - I don't blame them one bit for anything they have done.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 20:49:34


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:04:02


Post by: BaronIveagh


epronovost wrote:
That's also a missleading way to see it. It would be like if someone stole your gakky little house, demolished it, built a newer, bigger better house, built roads and infrastructures around it and then, would be forced to give it back to you because the land on which they built all this was stolen..


This happened in the late 1990's in the United States when Salamanca, New York's lease ran out. You'd be surprised how well it turned out.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:04:10


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:08:07


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen?


In some places, you have been, actually. Nothing major, but Buffalo New York is slowly leaving the US.


 Xenomancers wrote:
For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.


So was Americas. So was Irelands. So was pretty much every South American country. This is a stone/glass house situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?


Not to defend Hamas, but there's always that possibility that human decency springs up and people refuse to murder other people . I point to Pinkville as an example of US Soldiers threatening to drop an airstrike on other US soldiers if they did not stop their war-crime in progress.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:10:48


Post by: jhe90


https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-reopen-gaza-crossing-after-rioters-burn-it-for-3rd-time/

Its gonna get worse there..
The main cargo belts are damaged for maybe weeks to months and fuel lines are at fraction of former capacity.

Whatever happens in Gaza, its not going to be good for the civilians stuck there. The rioters have taken out the one life line they had left. The Israeli and egyption border crossings are sealed..



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:12:07


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 22:25:30


Post by: Prestor Jon


 jhe90 wrote:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-reopen-gaza-crossing-after-rioters-burn-it-for-3rd-time/

Its gonna get worse there..
The main cargo belts are damaged for maybe weeks to months and fuel lines are at fraction of former capacity.

Whatever happens in Gaza, its not going to be good for the civilians stuck there. The rioters have taken out the one life line they had left. The Israeli and egyption border crossings are sealed..



Unfortunately the hard liners on both sides benefit from making the situation worse. The people that suffer the most and would benefit the most from improving things have the least ability to effect change.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:22:26


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:27:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK - why don't my people just give back all the lands we stole - it's literally all stolen - even the territory we bought was stolen?


In some places, you have been, actually. Nothing major, but Buffalo New York is slowly leaving the US.


 Xenomancers wrote:
For feth sake their government is a terrorist organization.


So was Americas. So was Irelands. So was pretty much every South American country. This is a stone/glass house situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Who's more evil: the terrorist organization that sends people to attack a border fence knowing the Israeli military is going to shoot people, or the military that frankly doesn't give a damn if they shoot people?


Not to defend Hamas, but there's always that possibility that human decency springs up and people refuse to murder other people . I point to Pinkville as an example of US Soldiers threatening to drop an airstrike on other US soldiers if they did not stop their war-crime in progress.

Short of North Korea - who might even be changing it's tune as we speak. Hamas is without a doubt - the least worthy governing body on the face of the planet. There is a lot of corruption in government around the world including my own government but as far genocid goes - Hamas takes the cake there. I honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end. If Israel didn't remove all weapons from Gaza and keep watch on them as they do - it would have been 50k men women and children attacking the wall yesterday with Ak-47s.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:32:40


Post by: Disciple of Fate


You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:33:13


Post by: Xenomancers


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.

I honestly believe that if Israel thought peaceful coexistence could exist in that scenario - they would go for a two state solution in which they shared Jerusalem. The hate runs to deep. It's not about doing the right humanitarian thing for them. It's about protecting their nation. You have to admit - Palestinians are a legitimate threat to the security of their people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.
Nothing is certain right now. It could work out - I hope it does.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:39:28


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
You didn't see the news about NK backtracking I guess. But its hard to blame them when considering its Trump.
Nothing is certain right now. It could work out - I hope it does.

Meh this is the tried and tested NK method. Even if they made a deal NK would break it as soon as the coast is clear, as they always do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

First of all I'm Dutch, who did we steal our land from again?


Echem. Though to be fair England drove you OUT of the Empire business.

Actually England didn't, the US did in 1949. But not to echem about it, our stealing land days are in the past. I'm not trying to deny our colonial past, but its hard to argue that we like the Israelis should give the land back when we don't have anything anymore. When considering the Netherlands today we are not living on stolen land, which is what I meant by the statement.

I honestly believe that if Israel thought peaceful coexistence could exist in that scenario - they would go for a two state solution in which they shared Jerusalem. The hate runs to deep. It's not about doing the right humanitarian thing for them. It's about protecting their nation. You have to admit - Palestinians are a legitimate threat to the security of their people.

Issue is that they already have what is basically a two state solution in all but name, because Israel doesn't want to recognize Palestine as an actual country with rights instead of an occupation zone. They have a heavily armed 'border' with a giant wall. Israel benefits a lot from the current situation as well. Netanyahu is pushing for the violence. If he really cared about peace he wouldn't play up this Jerusalem nationalism, he is willingly throwing oil on the fire and endangering the lives of his own citizens for symbolism. He knows he's getting away with it and even firmly supported by the US. Israel could be doing a lot to diffuse tensions in the region, but it goes out of its way to be as heavy handed as possible, because it is to the political benefit of the government.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/15 23:47:50


Post by: Xenomancers


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:03:05


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.


Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:04:11


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:11:15


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK.


Forgetting WW2 and that more than just America fought in Korea. And Vietnam for that matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little.


Ok, true, refusing to win is a good way to lose.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling


Achem: the US lost more men in three days at Gettysburg then in ten years in Vietnam, The invasion of Normandy inflicted more casualties than all the American wars since Vietnam combined. Your idea of 'enormous' is hilariously small.


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.


His whole scenarios is based on a racist fantasy, depicting people in a sort of subhuman light, that they're so consumed by hate and evil that they'd do anything to murder an Israeli, and that justifies their mass murder. This is a argument that was, in fact, made by Nazis, except that it was about the jews.

So let's call it what it is: racism. Stop and look at it: we have a local somewhat brown population being put into reservations by their White, European conquerors.

Over in the other thread, I pointed out that even if such a 50k man hoard existed, they're so grossly outnumbered that the citizens of Israel could beat them to death with stones and win.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:24:18


Post by: Prestor Jon


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?


How did the US create the regime in NK? NK was already oppressive when they invaded SK in 1950 and the US and UN would have unified Korea with SK winning the war if China didn’t jump in to save NK at the end. The US saved SK from an invading NK we didn’t create the NK threat.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:41:01


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.


Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

I thought the idea was for the US to stop being world police? I am all about that btw. It's a bit hypocritical to tell a nation they can't do something like "settle in occupied land" when your entire fething country was settled in the exact fashion. A terrible terrible history. IMO the US - nor the UN has any right to tell Israel what to do with their land nor do they have any right to do the same to the Palestinians. International law is a failed experiment just like the league of nations. To bloody weak to do anything about anything and doesn't solve any problems - just helps some western elites sleep better at night.

Quite a few people, with some Europeans squarly amongst them, seem to think that the US being world police is a bad thing. Honestly yes, the US makes mistakes, but the overall sentiment comes from a place of ignorance. The world is becoming a safer place and the US has incredible normative and economic power to our benefit and that of most of the world (although certain terrible parts as Guantanomo and the IMF exists). The world is becoming a safer place thanks to the US and its allies pushing their normative power. When the US steps back countries like China and Russia "human rights who dat?" are going to step in. And the US has benefitted immensly from its position as world police politically and economically. It would be tragic to see the US throw away so much political capital on Israel, which is already a sure thing.

Times change and you can change. What happened in US history is horrible. But the US didn't just shrug their shoulders when Nazi Germany started comitting genocide, because the US doesn't have to be stuck in its dark past. We as Europeans have done some horrific gak and now we promote human rights, it sounds a bit hypocritical, but how long can you stand idly by over the sins of the father when others are wronged? International law is what gives the US its justification to be world police, Afghanistan was covered by it, the first Gulf War was covered by it with it even going back to Korea in 1950, and the West is restraining Russia and China with the help of it. Throwing international law out the window will only embolden the West's opponents and weaken the place of the US and its allies in the world.
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?


How did the US create the regime in NK? NK was already oppressive when they invaded SK in 1950 and the US and UN would have unified Korea with SK winning the war if China didn’t jump in to save NK at the end. The US saved SK from an invading NK we didn’t create the NK threat.
NK was obviously bad before. We turned them into isolationist - which in turn allowed NK to become what it has today. China jumping in to help NK was a granted fact - it's not like it was a suprise. Just meaningless death.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:50:13


Post by: Vaktathi


NK followed, and still to a large extent does, the Stalin manual of operating. This includes tightly controlled borders and information. Always has. NK's economic isolation is due to much later actions. As for China, at the time, to Western nations, it was not 100% known that China would enter, and if it did, if it would have any functional force projection ability following its just-resolved and highly destructive series of decades long wars.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:52:37


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 00:55:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK.


Forgetting WW2 and that more than just America fought in Korea. And Vietnam for that matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little.


Ok, true, refusing to win is a good way to lose.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling


Achem: the US lost more men in three days at Gettysburg then in ten years in Vietnam, The invasion of Normandy inflicted more casualties than all the American wars since Vietnam combined. Your idea of 'enormous' is hilariously small.


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Racist? Thats a slur, not an argument.


His whole scenarios is based on a racist fantasy, depicting people in a sort of subhuman light, that they're so consumed by hate and evil that they'd do anything to murder an Israeli, and that justifies their mass murder. This is a argument that was, in fact, made by Nazis, except that it was about the jews.

So let's call it what it is: racism. Stop and look at it: we have a local somewhat brown population being put into reservations by their White, European conquerors.

Over in the other thread, I pointed out that even if such a 50k man hoard existed, they're so grossly outnumbered that the citizens of Israel could beat them to death with stones and win.

I didn't mention WW2 because it is not interventionism in the same sense. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.

What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.

Okay - why is it racist?
Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern. I'm not saying that every Israeli that kills a Palestinian is justified make no mistake though - this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 01:11:39


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.


One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.


 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 01:12:54


Post by: Xenomancers


 Vaktathi wrote:
NK followed, and still to a large extent does, the Stalin manual of operating. This includes tightly controlled borders and information. Always has. NK's economic isolation is due to much later actions. As for China, at the time, to Western nations, it was not 100% known that China would enter, and if it did, if it would have any functional force projection ability following its just-resolved and highly destructive series of decades long wars.
I'm only speaking of overall outcome. It doesn't need to be a direct cause. We went to war - lots of people died - things got worse in NK. This is the only extent that I am claiming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.


One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.


 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.

I don't consider launching missles into israel blowing smoke.
Nor do I consider retaliating after being invaded and taking land in the process and then living on it to be a warcrime. I don't consider shooting people throwing grenades over a wall a warcrime ether.

I'm sure you've heard this argument before - What do you think the palestinians would do if they had a nuclear missle? I'm pretty sure they'd launch it right at Tel Aviv. Israel has nuclear missiles and they would never use them except as a last resort. Plus how can you call me racist based on "proportionality"? That seems really unfair.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 01:24:15


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay - why is it racist?


Because you dehumanized them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern.


It's not that people die, it's that people were killed in a war crime. If you want to call it a war.

 Xenomancers wrote:

this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.


If it's a war, then we watched, on camera, Israel committing war crimes. Total war. Killing civilians. Use of a banned chemical weapon. These all have, in the past, carried death sentences for the men responsible and the soldiers who commit them. if you don't believe me, I direct you to the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials.

Let me ask you, btw: what homes they might have stayed home at?







Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 01:32:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay - why is it racist?


Because you dehumanized them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - you pretty casually wrote off all American deaths in their world wide interventions due to it being less than the 50k plus men that died at Gettysburg - but the extremely small fraction of Palestinians killed in "protests" is a much greater cause for concern.


It's not that people die, it's that people were killed in a war crime. If you want to call it a war.

 Xenomancers wrote:

this is a war - its a war that's been ongoing for 50+ years. Young men are the most susceptible to the hate and every one of those Palestinians knows what they are getting into - they could have stayed home and done something constructive to better their lives. Instead they went to the most dangerous place on earth for a Palestinian. Murder IMO is something very different.


If it's a war, then we watched, on camera, Israel committing war crimes. Total war. Killing civilians. Use of a banned chemical weapon. These all have, in the past, carried death sentences for the men responsible and the soldiers who commit them. if you don't believe me, I direct you to the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials.

Let me ask you, btw: what homes they might have stayed home at?






I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?

Not to say gaza isn't a terrible place - but it looks a lot like most places in the middle east if you don't look directly at where a hamas weapons store was destroyed by a smart missle.
http://www.businessinsider.com/life-in-gaza-strip-pictures-2014-12#youve-seen-what-life-is-like-in-gaza--51



Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 01:46:57


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Xenomancers wrote:

I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?


With certain caveats.

One: Hamas hasn't actually been the legal government of Gaza since last year. However, Fatah's efforts to take control from Hamas have been being quite expertly hampered by Mossad. Israel needs to stop literally murdering the effort to remove Hamas.

Two: Israel would have to stop supporting the burning alive of children. That one seems to bring out the screaming demand for vengeance in the local people.

Three: The US has to stop using the magic power of the UN veto to actually allow any of the investigations of Israel's actions to go forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Not to say gaza isn't a terrible place - but it looks a lot like most places in the middle east if you don't look directly at where a hamas weapons store was destroyed by a smart missle.


Or the homes of any of the 1400 civilians that were killed with smart missiles that year either, because someone from Hamas road past on a motorcycle, so Israel flattened the neighborhood.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Nor do I consider retaliating after being invaded and taking land in the process and then living on it to be a warcrime.


Whether you consider it one or not, that's actually a war crime.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I don't consider shooting people throwing grenades over a wall a warcrime ether.


and this guy?






Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 02:07:25


Post by: Vaktathi


 Xenomancers wrote:

I hold human beings accountable for their decisions. That is all.
That's interesting considering it is not the Palestinians who hold all the military, economic, governmental, financial, industrial, agricultural, social, and foreign backing cards, they ball is just not in their court.

If Palestine wants peace - they first need to remove their terrorist government and cease violent actions against Israel. Do you agree?
yes, a people who have no functioning economy or government or institutions, who live under literal occupation of a foreign military that builds its own walled off communities among them, constantly sabotaged, multiple foreign powers that have spent generations actively crippling any attempt at a functioning government, and who have no sovereignty over their own lands should rise up and overthrow the people who A: have all the guns, and B: are the only reason trash gets collected, and C: are the only people on the planet who seem to be fighting those they see as occupiers.

Methinks there are some factors we missed there.

And again, if we're gonna demand removal of terrorist governments, well, again, the Israeli's had more than their fair share rise up literally every political and military rank in the nation coming in from groups like Irgun and Lehi, up to and including Prime Minister (at least twice).


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 02:28:01


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.


You know they have simar genetic markers right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.


One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.


 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.


Wait you just said FDR set up Japan attacking the US. That's pants on head crazy chemtrails moon landings were fake crap.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 03:31:03


Post by: thekingofkings


 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.


You know they have simar genetic markers right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
. It was a world war where we were attacked on our homeland. Intervention here was self-defense.


One, after FDR set it up so that Japan would attack the US, even having studies done to formulate a foreign policy that would ensure this.

Two: actually you were attacked in foreign countries that you just happened to have conquered. Hawaii, The Philippines, etc.


 Xenomancers wrote:
.What racist fantasy? Am I imagining that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and all its people?


So do a lot of people, but the thing is that there's something called 'proportionality' even in warfare. Calling for your enemies deaths is not the same as actually committing a war crime. (This is discussed at length at the trial of 'Panzer' Meyer)

The difference here is while Hamas has blown a lot of smoke, it's the IDF committing actual crimes.


Wait you just said FDR set up Japan attacking the US. That's pants on head crazy chemtrails moon landings were fake crap.


Its not an uncommon belief though, the carriers all being at sea in December is could be seen as suspicious in hindsight. Economic policy was pushing the Japanese Empire closer to having to do something.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 03:40:48


Post by: Frazzled


Of course it was, that was the point, quit slaughter in Chinese by the tens of thousands.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 06:04:55


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
What good has US interventionism done? In Korea all it did was create the most oppressive government in modern times - great for SK but terrible for NK. Vietnam was ultimately a waste of life that accomplished very little. Wars in Iraq hasn't benefited the middle east in any noticeable way and IMO is directly responsible for the Syrian crisis we have going on now - I guess the liberation of Kuwait could be considered a positive thing. Just the American lives lost in these campaigns are enormous - the other factions losses are mind boggling. Doesn't seem worth the effort to me. But hey - the war machine keeps turning. The real winners are arms manufacturers per usual. Help me understand how this is a good thing and should continue?
its not just pure inteventionism, it is also US economic and political pressure. The US as it runs the show now is geared towards preventing conflict. Intervention is just the last option.

Korea created the most opressive regime? No, the Kim family already seized power before the UN intervention and started on their long road to murder and imprison enemies. Korea was going to end up horrible regardless. The part the US managed to pull out of the fire eventually managed to become a democracy. Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq we're blunders true, but especially Iraq did not adhere to the rules the US itself set. And Iraq isn't directly responsible for Syria. Syria collapsed due to its own problems that had very little to do with Iraq. Syria affected Iraq more than the other way around.

And it isn't all bad, you mentioned Kuwait alresdy. But you also have Haiti and former Yugoslavia around this time. The US alliance system is keeping traditional enemies on the same side and moving in the same direction. That is already very valuable in preserving the peace.

And lives lost sound enormous, but looked at statistically there are less wars and violent deaths than ever. With a steady decline in the period when the US is the sole superpower. The cost in American lives for the political and economic benefits it has brought is incredibly low. The US has build a global economic system to its benefit and has lost less people in 70 years than most countries have in conflicts before '45. The whole Washington Consensus and free trade has been build on this, with how the US set it up. Furthermore the way the system is set up lets the US run defecits unimaginable to other countries, because nobody is going to pull the plug on the spider in the middle of the web.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


Not attacking the wall didn't stop the IDF from murdering the protesters before, why would it now? Maybe you missed this, but the murdering started BEFORE the wall attacking started. Israel's justification has jumped around quite a bit: first it was that all the people they killed were terrorists. Then they killed a bunch of journalists covering it who were provably not terrorists, so then it was that all the people they were killed were violent rioters, but then footage of them shooting people just standing there kept coming out, so now it's to protect the wall separating Gaza and Israel.

And, yes, you did. Maybe you don't grasp WHY it's racist, but you did.


You know they have simar genetic markers right?

Does that matter, most humans tend to be roughly similar, as we're one species. As mentioned before most Israelis are from European descent. You can be racist against people from the Middle East as a European. Israelis are even racist against Jews that aren't of European descent and in some ways the inter-Jewish racism based on country of origin still plays today.


Gaza Protests Spark Israeli Violence @ 2018/05/16 07:36:42


Post by: jouso


 Xenomancers wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.


Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.

BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?

A cease fire is automatic. Stop trying to attack the wall - they will stop shooting you. Come on man. Nothing I said is even remotely racist. Hamas is Racist.


And that will accomplish what? Go back to your hovel and wake up early next day for the 2h commute (of which a full hour is queuing at the gate) for a menial job in which you're paid 1/3 of a similar Israeli worker?

That's what most Palestinians actually do. I'm genuinelly amazed more people don't turn to violence because honestly their life is below the crap level. There is a small Palestinian middle class, and an upper class who make more than decent money (my distributor in the Palestinian territories rolls on an E-Class, has a nice house, etc.)

Those people don't throw themselves at the border, and only a few fringe idealists turn to violence. For the most part they want to buy a bigger TV and a bigger car, just like everyone else in the world. They know where their houses used to be because there are still people who lived there (less and less every day, though). Can you blame them for wanting them back?

In their minds, Israel waged a terrorist campaign that worked (king david hotel, assassinating the British highest authority in the region during wartime, assassinating the head UN negotiator for the sin of proposing Jerusalem to be in the Arab zone). All that people are now hailed as liberators and went on to be Generals, Prime Ministers and all sorts of relevant positions within the independent Israeli government. Terrorism works, they have a reminder of that every time they look at their Israeli-issued ID card or pay in Israeli shekels.

You can't really not expect that people who have nothing to lose put themselves in the firing like of a dozen trigger-happy israeli soldiers. For their families it's like triggering their life insurance policy, because once one of your children dies then Hamas takes care of the rest, and Hamas goes where neither Israel nor the PA go as far as providing jobs, food, housing and healthcare, and you can always have more children.

I go to Israel quite frequently (though it's been quite a few years I don't cross into the West Bank because then Israeli immigration gives you all sorts of crap) and cognitive dissonance once this issue turns up (and it does turn up, you can't really ignore it) is something like I haven't seen anywhere else in the world. Best case scenario is Palestinians deserve what's coming for them because they brought it on themselves, worst case is they don't qualify for the human card.